April 14, 2025 • 43 mins
Tami and Dash sit down with social researcher and author Neer Korn to explore the big question: Is Australia actually racist? From synagogue attacks to very public displays of anti-Zionism, Jewish Australians are feeling less safe since October 7. Neer explains why that fear - while understandable - might not reflect the full story. They cover antisemitism, institutional racism and why your average Aussie doesn’t think much about Jews at all.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/are-australians-racist-ive-been-trying-to-bait-them-for-years
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/australias-last-antisemitism-crisis-was-different
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/survey-shows-protests-are-hurting-the-palestinian-cause
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large, but
struggling to keep up with thenews cycle?
Are you already over matzah?
Were you ghosted by a propheton the weekend?
If you answered yes to thosequestions, then you've come to
the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Chag Sameach everyone .
I'm Dash Lawrence from theJewish Independent and, in this
podcast series, your irreverentthird cousin, your perennial
Seder clown, tammy Sussman, andI call on experts and each other
to address all of your ignorantquestions that you've been too
ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast.
Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Hello everyone, I'm Tammy.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm Dash.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Dash is the Executive Director of the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And I'm thrilled to announce that very soon, tammy
will be the Chief Vibe Officerof TJI.
Pending board approval Tammy,did you write that?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, I just edited the script real quick before we
started recording.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, I don't recall that.
I had that in there originally.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, well, you know be the change Dash.
How do I look today?
Listeners can't see me, but youcan.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You're looking very green today.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I'm looking green.
Yeah, the wall behind me isgreen.
I'm recording from mygrandmother's house because I
did move over the weekend andthe apartment that I've moved
into is very noisy.
It's right on a main road andit's next to a police station so
there are random eruptions ofsirens every few minutes.
So I thought you know ourlisteners may not want to hear
(02:00):
that they might get some ofMaroubra's best bird noises from
outside my grandmother's window.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Love that A few aeroplanes.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Dash, I thought you were going to say I look tired
because I feel tired.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yes, you look tired.
But, Tammy, that isunderstandable.
You've just moved apartments onthe weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Moving is a huge undertaking.
It's an enormous job and Dash.
I couldn't have done it withoutmy village, my friends, my
family.
I spent a lot of time with myparents over the weekend maybe a
bit too much time with my dad.
(02:43):
For those listeners who alsofollow me on social media, he's
the guy who's always in thehigh-vis vest.
He works in construction, inmaterials, handling, traffic
control.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Would not want to mess with your dad.
I get gruff vibes from your dadnot me personally, just from
the little bits and pieces thatI've picked up through social
media.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Couldn't be further from the truth.
He's the biggest softie.
Oh, is he.
Anyway, because of hisbackground in project management
, he project managed the wholemove.
He got in there, he was veryhands-on, he's almost 70 and he
was lifting and he was on hisfeet from 7 am to 7 pm
(03:30):
industrious yeah, so spendingthat amount of time with him was
a really great opportunity forme to hear him rehash every
catchphrase I've heard him sayover the past 30 plus years.
Such as he will answer the phoneand he'll say how are they
(03:52):
hanging Bit to the left bit tothe right.
Okay, doing such a great job.
I don't care what anyone saysabout you.
I think you're great.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Oh yeah, that one.
I heard a new one from my dad.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Oh yeah, that one.
I heard a new one from my dad.
Oh yeah, he and a mate weremeasuring my fridge and they
realised that it was going tofit exactly.
And my dad said, oh, it'll fitlike a finger in a bum.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Okay, not sure that that's for ATA listeners, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Like a finger in a bum.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yep, yep, did not need that visual.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Have you heard that one before?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Never heard that one.
Don't really want to hear thatone again, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Last week I heard you say swings and roundabouts.
I'd never heard that before.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Every now and again I might be guilty of a cliche or
two, but like if I say somethinglike that, I'm taking the mick.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Taking the mick.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I'm not being sincere .
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think in Melbourne you have different catchphrases.
I've never heard swings aroundabout the four and I've never
heard take the mick.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right or drain the weasel.
That was a new one for you.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Please let me keep that in the episode, because
we're like besties.
Now I'm like Dash, I've got togo do a pish, which for our
non-Jewish listeners is I needto pee.
And then one time Dash said Ineed to go drain the weasel.
What about this one Dash?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Go on.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
When you were growing up?
Did you hear any boomers inyour life say I'm not racist, I
hate everyone the same?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
No, I've heard the.
I'm not racist, but I heardthat one.
That's like the classicindicator that someone's just
about to say something thatactually is racist or prejudice,
but they're astute enough toknow that they should frame it
in a more palatable fashion.
But your dad just jumpsstraight to it.
He's like I'm not racist, Ijust hate everyone.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I hate everyone the same.
I think that's a sentimentshared by a lot of Australians.
What do you think as a whiteAnglo man?
Do you perceive Australia as aracist country?
Do you?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
perceive Australia as a racist country.
Such a big, broad, generalquestion.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Sorry.
You don't want to answer it, doyou?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
As John Safran once said with regard to religious
extremists in his book, dependswhat you mean by racist.
This conversation today is, Ithink, going to surprise our
listeners, those who adopt theimmediate position that, yes,
Australia is a racist country oryes, Australians have a problem
(06:39):
with racism.
Our guest today has thrown kindof new light and provoked me to
rethink this question about howprevalent are racist attitudes
and prejudice in Australia.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
It depends on what the algorithm is serving me.
When I see a lot of contentabout racism against Jews, or I
see news reports about newincidents of violence against
other minority groups, then Ithink, yeah, okay, Australia has
a racism problem.
But then I might read anarticle like the one Nia Korn
(07:20):
wrote for the Jewish Independentand and I might go back to the
fence and sit on that fence fora little bit.
I haven't made up my mind.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Some people do get quite provoked by this question,
particularly if you're more onthe right side of politics.
You sort of tend to view thatAustralia has nothing to
apologise for or nothing to feelshameful of.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Ashamed to admit.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
And I just think that you know, it's just not true,
and Nir talks about this in hisarticle.
Maybe it's just about the levelof how overt it is.
Maybe that's another way ofrethinking it.
Maybe Australians arewithholding their prejudice than
other countries.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
It's a question that I still don't have an answer to.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Joining us in the studio today is Nir Korn, a
social and consumer researcherand author.
His work with the Korn Grouphas produced over 120
large-scale reports onAustralian society.
He's a popular speaker atconferences and company planning
days on social issues andtrends, and his range of
(08:27):
speaking topics covers everyavenue of Australian life.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Nia's writing and commentary has regularly been
published in newspapers andmagazines nationally, including
now for the Jewish Independent.
Nia's three non-fiction titlesinclude Shades of Belonging,
conversations with AustralianJews, life Behind Bars,
conversations with Violent MaleInmates and his latest book
(08:53):
She'll Be Right or Will she?
A Journey into the AustralianPsyche.
We hope you enjoy thisconversation with a man who gets
to talk to Australians nearCorn, near corn.
(09:31):
Welcome to the ashamed to admitstudio.
Thank you very much near.
I understand that you've been asocial researcher for 25 years.
As a part of that career, youhave run hundreds and hundreds
of focus groups and I'm wantingto know what have you learned
(09:52):
about Australians over time andhow have you seen a change in
attitudes over that time thatyou've been interviewing
Australians?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Fundamentally, australians are good people.
They're caring people, theyreally believe in the live and
let live attitude and they'rerespectful of each other.
The radical ideas or thoughtswere not present in all this
time until recently.
(10:25):
Not present in all this timeuntil recently, and now I'm
getting an inkling of it,because the entire Western world
has become quite divided and nolonger is there much of a
middle ground.
It feels like you have to takean extreme position either way,
so you're either very extreme onthe right or you're very
extreme on the left on variousissues.
(10:47):
But while Australia still has alarge middle ground, I could
see us slipping towards the wayAmerica is in that sense, where
the division is so strong andeveryone is adamant that their
opinion is the correct one asopposed to being open to others.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
That's so interesting .
So you are charting and seeingthe polarisation of our age
unfolding in the course of thesefocus groups and conversations.
Can you tell our listeners howthese sessions are run, what the
types of questions that you askpeople and why it's such a
(11:27):
powerful and valid insight intowhat ordinary Australians think
and feel?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You've said you try to create an atmosphere that
would enable people to expresscontroversial views, to see if
you could uncover racism.
So I would love to know how youset that up.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Social research is really divided into two methods.
One is quantitative, when yousurvey people and find out what
they think, and the other one isqualitative, where it's all
open-ended.
It's not about the exact answerto which of these thoughts do
you think reflects you best, butit's more like what are your
(12:06):
thoughts, what do you believe?
And the way to get at that isby having random people.
I do it through companies whosejob it is to recruit people and
I give them a broad sense ofpeople.
It doesn't have to be veryexact.
I tend to divide the sexes inmy groups.
Otherwise you get quite a bitof tension in the group, which I
don't like.
I do it according tosocioeconomic very often, and I
(12:36):
do it geographically and by age,and then it's all open-ended.
Traditionally, a focus group isyou have a few people sitting in
a lounge room or an office andyou ask them questions that are
about their thinking.
So if they go, here's my answer.
I then say well, why, how didyou come to that?
And what I'm doing is siftingthrough all the different
answers to find the gold inthere.
(12:57):
What is the common factoroverall?
Why and how does it differbetween, say, people who live in
rural areas and people who livein cities and the way I manage
to get them, and each one has atopic of its own generally.
So you know, I might look athealth and wellbeing, I might
look at attitude, I might lookat work, and it all depends on
(13:18):
the topic I'm researching at thetime and I will do a whole lot
of focus groups and interviewson that topic and from there
what I will do is write a reportand then I go out and present
that to a whole lot of focusgroups and interviews on that
topic and from there what I willdo is write a report and then I
go out and present that to awhole lot of interested parties
who want to know what the broadunderstanding of people are so
they can fulfill their aims.
The way I do I manage to openit up, essentially by playing
(13:43):
the idiot Like I don't knowanything, and I make it clear to
them I don't know anything, soshare with me.
Allow them to say things thatare controversial is by saying
that's really interesting,because in all the other groups
I did, I heard somethingdifferent.
Or in the racism one.
When I look at that, I say topeople right, in other groups.
(14:06):
I hear that migrants from thiscountry are like this Don't you
find that?
And that gives them a chance toresist me.
And that's what I'm looking at.
How enthusiastic am I?
Are they about my view and say,yeah, that's right, that's what
I feel?
Or look, I don't feel that wayat all and to me that's gold,
(14:29):
because they resisted me andthey came up with an opinion and
then I can honestly say this iswhat they feel, and I test them
over and over to try and getthat sense from them.
So if I hold an extreme view,it's their opportunity to do
that and kind of reflect back atme.
And the most important thing isto create an atmosphere in the
(14:49):
group that allows people tospeak openly.
And that's done by theintroductions initially, and
they go to introduce themselvesand ask a basic and answer a
basic question.
And then we go through andsuddenly, if a group is great,
they've bonded with each otherand I can ask a question and
they will argue or debate itbetween themselves and I don't
(15:11):
have to do anything.
And often there's a silent timeand that's very difficult,
especially for me, because Ifeel like butting in and saying
something and I have to watchmyself and just sit there for as
long as it takes, untilsomebody else is uncomfortable
with the silence, and then theyspeak and that sparks other
people.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Fascinating.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So, nir, we've brought you on to the podcast
this week because you have justwritten a striking article in
the Jewish Independent, and thename of that article is Are
Australians Racist?
And in that piece you point outthat Australian Jews are
rightfully concerned, evenscared, by events locally and
(16:00):
globally since October 7.
So, with an eye to the spate ofanti-Semitic incidents over the
past few months, you ask thequestion is this a reflection of
broader anti-Semitic feelingsamong Australians or is it just
limited to a relatively smallnumber of disgruntled
(16:24):
individuals, of disgruntledindividuals?
So Dash and I are curious toknow is Australia a racist
country?
But before you answer that, canwe ask you what prompted you to
write the piece in the firstplace?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Because whenever you ask Australians, people tend to
adamantly say yes, we are racist.
And it seems to be the popularview that you read about the
media, in the media constantly,of how racist a country we are.
And having poked and prodded onthis for such a long time, I'm
(17:05):
adamant in my view, but it's avery unpopular one, you know.
I've lost geeks over it.
I've been kicked out of one ofthe main TV stations' newsroom.
There seems to be a realresistance to it and the sense
that yes, we are racist, but Ican't find the rationale for it.
(17:25):
And I also do not understandwhy people hold on to that view
so strongly when there's verylittle evidence of it.
And what we see is, every timethere's a racial incident, every
time something happens, it'simmediately said see, we are
racist, see, that's a reflectionof who the country is.
(17:47):
But I see the opposite.
We've seen so many years whereit's been ingrained on us that
we're a multicultural societyand, as I said in the beginning,
we're inherently a live and letlive society and that's the
important bit, that it's liveand let live.
Do what you like, like be,whatever religion you are, wear
(18:10):
whatever garb you have, exceptfor the nikbah, and at the same
time you come across people fromevery background in your
workplace, in cafes, infestivals, and everyone gets
along.
And then we have something thatcomes along like somebody
screams something on somebody ona train and suddenly it goes
(18:34):
viral and it means proof of that.
But the reason I say that weare so sensitive to it is, in
fact, because we're not racistand it shocks us.
For Jews, there's a sense ofparanoia whenever something is
mentioned that's anti-Semitic.
And I would say, just becausesomebody graffitis a wall or
(18:56):
puts a Palestinian flag up, thatmight say that that person is
anti-Semitic.
Maybe the group they belong tois anti-Semitic but does not
reflect the popular view acrossthe place.
And even when I say, but lookat that group and what they do
and how we view them and look atthat group, look at Asians.
(19:16):
They don't assimilate andpeople just fight back against
it.
People don't believe it andessentially they don't even
think about it.
It's not an issue that'sforemost in people's minds and
it's also not something peoplewant to see in Australia.
They do want to see thateveryone gets along.
Now I should say that anexception to this is Indigenous
(19:40):
Australians, and it's a muchmore complex issue.
That would require an entirepodcast, because there's a lot
of underlying elements to itthat we have to understand
before we can make an opinion onthat.
What I find in the Jewishcommunity is that they're so
sensitive to anything that'santi-Israel, and I have a
(20:03):
feeling of where that all comesfrom is a sense of panic and
paranoia.
And suddenly we're back in1930s Austria.
Burning cars and burning asynagogue is horrific, but again
it doesn't reflect widerAustralian society.
People didn't sit at home,watch the TV or their screen and
(20:24):
clap their hands in support.
Yeah, look what they did to theJews.
That is not the case.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So, nia, what I'm hearing you say is that there
are many examples and obviouslywe've had some particularly
recently of anti-Semitic attacks, and you would accept as valid
the examples that Jewishcommunity might point to.
But what you would question isthat there is a population-wide
(20:58):
level of anti-Semitism.
That you're saying.
Look at the data.
It's just not borne out in thequalitative data that you have
seen over many years and also inthe quantitative data.
Have I got that right, nir?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yes, one thing that came up for me in the groups
over and over again isAustralians don't mind migrants.
At the moment they're mindedbecause of housing issues and et
cetera.
But they say look, there's onething we expect from migrants in
our country and that is leaveyour problems behind.
(21:35):
And I think that those whosupport the Palestinian cause
have done themselves and thecore cause a great disservice in
Australia.
When they see these marcheswith these big b in Australia,
when they see these marches withthese big banners and when they
see it turning violent, theysay this doesn't belong in
Australia.
If you really want to do this,go back to your country and do
(21:58):
it.
At the same time, they see theJewish people having these
vigils with songs, withappointed speeches, and they
could also look at October 7thand be horrified by it.
The things that happened topeople, to young people, at a
(22:19):
music concert, at a musicfestival.
I mean those things Australianscan look at and look, I think
there is a predisposition tothink of people from Muslim
backgrounds as being violent.
You know and you hear a lot oftimes Muslim leaders say Islam
is a religion of peace, and whatAustralians respond to that is
(22:42):
really Really.
How can you possibly say thatwhen what they see is ISIS and
terrorism and things like that?
So they don't actually reflectthat.
And I've got to say that theMuslims community have it much
harder than the Jewish communitydoes.
Ever since 9-11 has been thatcase.
(23:04):
It's much harder to be a Muslimin Australia than to be a
Jewish person in Australia.
And I remember recently hearinga rabbi speak and he was saying
people ask me isn't itdifficult when I wear such
obvious Jewish outfits, isn't itracist constantly?
And he said you know, I do getnasty comments shouted at me
(23:26):
from cars, but at the same timeI have nice comments shouted at
me from cars and you have tobalance it out and to suggest
that the person who shouts itout is a reflection of Australia
.
I think it's a really badmistake to make, because our
self-reflection does notcelebrate the fact that we
(23:47):
celebrate difference, but it's areflection of the negative.
So, yes, those Jewish incidentsare horrendous.
They're horrendous, theyshouldn't happen and people wish
that the government would crackdown on it.
So any talk, for example, ofcancelling the visas of people
who act like that.
(24:08):
People said absolutely weshould do that because we don't
see these things.
People remember one thing whenthey say Australia is a racist
country, and that was theCronulla riots in Sydney.
And that was when there was aclash between Anglo-Australians
and a certain sector of theMuslim community in Australia
(24:32):
and that became violent.
People were hurt.
It spread through text messages.
There were violent incidentsacross Sydney in different
places.
But think about this thathappened over 20 years ago.
Is that the best we can do whenwe think about Australia as a
racist country?
That was so long ago and that'swhat retains the memory of
(24:56):
people.
And since then there's been solittle, apart from specific
incidents at specific times.
And when I really push peopleand I ask them, what do I do in
the groups?
I turn them to people who areobviously ethnic and I say, all
right, tell me what happened toyou.
And they struggle and then theysay you know, once we were
(25:17):
walking and somebody shouted atme and well, okay, that's bad,
but is it really that bad?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Nir, I'm surprised by a lot of what you're saying.
Something which stood out to mefrom your article was when you
wrote about theinstitutionalised racism against
Indigenous Australians.
You wrote it's an ever-presentstain.
So how do we hold that truthwhilst also talking about
(25:49):
anti-Semitism and theIslamophobia that you've just
mentioned and other forms ofprejudice, without descending
into a kind of competitivesuffering?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's really, really complicated.
The institutionalised racism isapparent in some areas and we
just talked to police in theNorthern Territory of Western
Australia, where recentcommissions have seen that that
has been the case and incidentsreflect that.
Look at the fact that weimprison more Indigenous people
(26:25):
per capita than any othercountry in the world.
Look, I did a book aboutprisons where I went and I spoke
to violent inmates, includingIndigenous ones, and what they
said to me is look, I'm morecomfortable in prison than I am
in greater society because theycan feel it.
You know, one of the guys toldme and he was young, he was only
(26:46):
30, and he said to me, and helived in Redfern, and he said to
me you know, when we walk homefrom school, my parents tell me
to avoid the police whateverhappens, because it's so strong
in their mind.
So is the Stolen Generation,which is also very strong in
their mind.
Now, the reason?
(27:07):
It's multitude reasons, but oneof the biggest ones that I came
across was that Australians, byand large, have very little
experience of Indigenous people.
There's only two categoriesthat they know of those have
made it in broader society toleadership positions the Noel
(27:29):
Pearsons, if you like, and thenthere's the ones they notice on
the corner, drunk andfrightening, and that is so not
true.
When I spoke to people in ruralareas, they were telling me
that they have a much moresophisticated view of it.
There were the Indigenouspeople who were totally
(27:52):
dysfunctional in their lives,and for very good reason, and
they just avoided those areas.
And then there were all theIndigenous people who lived like
the rest of the community, whoworked with them, who shopped
with them, who dined with them,and they were just living normal
lives.
They just happened to beIndigenous.
(28:12):
But the overall sense is thatAustralians actually care about
Indigenous people.
They want them to succeed inlife.
They're ashamed by the factthat we haven't been able to
resolve this, despite having somany royal commissions, that
nothing has happened in regardto that and we continue to have
(28:33):
it.
They're ashamed of the factthat we stole the generations.
In fact, paul Keating's Redfordspeech, which is very much
lauded, where he said we stolethe people, we did this and we
did that, that would really fitthe mark to be played today.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Nia, the sense I get from reading your article and
from our conversation today isthis is maybe not how you would
characterise it, so feel free tocorrect me but is of a
relatively benign view that mostAustralians have to foreigners
and to the other, the other andyou point to this in the end of
(29:18):
the article where you ask thequestion so what do Australians
really think of Jews and Israel?
And you mention an example or aresponse that Vladimir Putin is
once have said when he wasasked at the APEC summit in 2007
, what does he think ofAustralia?
He responded I don't.
I don't think Right.
So we're left with theimpression that most Australians
(29:43):
have a relatively you knowbenign view of outsiders and
others, including Jews andIsrael, and that they don't
really know or really care care.
What about the view thatindifference is just as
dangerous as explicit racism orhate?
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Because that's the message I received at Jewish
school, especially when we werelearning about the Holocaust.
It was like the people who werethe perpetrators of the
Holocaust were bad, but so were.
The people who did nothing werebad, but so were the people who
did nothing.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Australians don't need to think about it because
they don't see the problem.
Now, one of the things I'veobserved and I used to work at
the Jewish Board of Deputies inSydney many years ago and I used
to receive all the mediacuttings every day and all these
publications and my head wasfilled with Jewish, Jewish,
(30:40):
Jewish.
What do they think of us?
And when I left that job,suddenly it dawned on me it
doesn't exist in the outsideworld.
And I think, look, this hasbeen really controversial, I'm
sure, but I think part of it isthe fact that we teach our
children Jewish identity morefrom the negative than the
(31:03):
positive.
Look what they did to us, Lookwhat happened.
And I think that reallysensitizes us, and I'm really
surprised at the degree to whichthe Jews that I've spoken to
really feel like this isabsolute horror.
How can you turn a blind eye tothis?
And my response is what Ifinished the article with when
(31:27):
did you last think of theRohingyas in Myanmar?
I mean, their whole populationis being decimated.
There's a million of themliving on some island off Sri
Lanka as refugees.
Why don't you give them somethought?
And if you expect people tothink about October 7th.
Shouldn't you be thinking aboutthat as well?
(31:48):
Or what about the Yugos inChina?
I mean the re-education campsthat they're being sent to, and
I could name multitudes ofissues that we ignore.
And yet we expect the rest ofAustralia to be so concerned
about the things that bother usso much, and people see that as
(32:08):
a sign of broad anti-Semitism orlatent anti-Semitism.
So you're absolutely right.
The people who to say that, yeah, the people who to say that,
yeah, the people are silent,they're the problem.
But I would ask the jews areyou part of the problem or
solution?
You know what are you doing inyour life, because obviously
every community is caught upwith its own issues, but it's
(32:32):
such a focus that it makespeople seek the information and
ideas that reflect their ownpoint of view and not the
opposite, nothing else.
I know some people who get alltheir news for one particular
media source that tends to beall pro-Israel, all anti-Arab,
(32:53):
and it's a vindication for them,but nobody's out there thinking
of hold on a second, and myview, very strongly, is that the
suffering and pain that Jewishpeople feel is not mutually
exclusive of the suffering andpain that ordinary Palestinians
feel.
Now, to many people, that wouldmake me an absolute radical, and
(33:16):
yet I'm not comfortable witheither side, really, because
both views are very radical theanti-Israel camp and the
pro-Israel camp.
And I say that, by the way, asan Israeli former Israeli, I
guess, with all his family inIsrael.
One of my cousins died onOctober 7th.
I have a cousin who lost two ofhis best friends when he was in
(33:39):
a very high unit of the armyand they reached a trip wire and
he saw them explode rightbefore his eyes.
I'm a huge supporter of Israel,a passionate one, but I still
maintain what I think is aperspective that I think lacks
in the Jewish community and, asI said, that's a really
unpopular view to hold.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
It is and it will be interesting to see how people
respond to your thoughts in thispodcast today.
We did at the JewishIndependent did a study called
Crossroads 21, the largestsurvey of its kind of the
general Australian population ontheir attitudes towards Jewish
people and their attitudestowards the Israeli-Palestinian
(34:23):
conflict.
Nia, and I have to say, whatyou have raised today was borne
out in that data.
So, yes, very low levels ofantisemitism were exhibited in
the responses.
People had a generally, youknow, relatively favourable or
neutral view about Jewish people.
But critically, I think this isreally important to think about
(34:46):
today is, when asked about theconflict, most Australians and
I've talked about this on thepodcast before most Australians
do not take a strong positioneither for or against Israelis
or Palestinians.
They don't know, they don'tfeel informed enough to give an
answer or they don't have apreference.
Because you did say at thestart of this conversation,
(35:07):
you're seeing a slightradicalization in some of your
conversations and some of yourfocus groups.
People are starting to becomemore polarized.
We're going to actually do thatsurvey again this year.
Would you expect that the datawill probably be the same again,
that despite October 7th, therewouldn't have been a
significant shift in how peoplerespond.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
We expect there to be very little shift because they
don't think about it, they don'tcare about it.
You know, most people havetheir day-to-day run I've got to
get the kids to school, I'vegot to get the meal on the table
, I'm worried about paying forthings.
So I suspect there will be somenegative views of Israel
(35:50):
because of everything they see.
I mean, when they see on the TV, they see Gazans being bombed,
these kids, and they can't helpbut think, geez, that's mean of
the Israelis to do that.
And then they'll see images ofOctober 7, and it will merely
reinforce their view thatMuslims are violent people.
(36:12):
But overall, I don't expectthere to be much of a change.
By the way, when you askAustralians, what do you think
of Jews, you know they'rereluctant to say, but then
they'll say things like well,jews are rich, and I think it's
reasonable to say that many Jewsare rich.
I mean, the truth is that ahuge percentage of the Jewish
(36:32):
population is very poor.
The biggest housing commissionhere in Surrey Hills in Sydney
is filled with Jews from theformer Soviet Union who can
never afford to live anywhereelse.
But it's reasonable for them tosee the view that Jews are rich
.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Why is it reasonable?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
They see the you know , the fortune fire, the
Australian 500 richestAustralians.
Richest Australians wereoverrepresented in that list and
they also think the Jews arereally smart.
The Jews are very educated butoverall they see the Jews have
made a great contribution, not anegative one, a really positive
one.
(37:12):
But beyond that they don'tthink about it whatsoever.
You know, it doesn't crosstheir mind and most Australians
only interact with Jews.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I am in an author's group and an author colleague of
mine.
She loves going and runningauthor workshops in rural areas.
She says, tammy, I neverexperience antisemitism when I'm
there.
Antisemitism doesn't existbecause no one's ever met a Jew.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
If you ran your survey and made a concerted
effort overall which is why thisstory is so good to hear with
the arts community, you willfind there a very strong view
against Israel really strong, Isuspect.
And that's because that iswhere you find the if you like,
(38:07):
the radical division.
You know they're all probecause the right wing and
non-arts people are anti and Ithink it's fair to say that.
But also we are very sensitiveto it.
Just because a Palestinianauthor speaks at a writers'
festival doesn't make himanti-Semitic necessarily or the
(38:29):
organisation anti-Semitic.
It just means that they arereflecting views.
But, as I said, the artscommunity will tend in some
areas to look for the radical.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Well, I think it becomes anti-Semitic when there
isn't balance.
So it's fine for apro-Palestinian speaker to speak
at a festival, but when thereare five pro-Palestinians and no
Zionists or you know overtlyJewish panels or speakers, then
I think people have the right toget upset.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yes, you could even call that anti-Semitic.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
You know they'd call, as you know, people
rationalising it by saying it'santi-Zionist, but we all know
that it's the same thingessentially.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Nir, we ask all of our interviewees if they're
ashamed to admit.
Anything in general doesn'thave to be related to today's
chat.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I am vegetarian for many years and I'd love to be
vegan, but I'm ashamed of thefact that I can't give up dairy.
I was ashamed of my views many,many years ago, you know, when
I went to school I didn't stoppeople from making horrific
remarks about gay people, aboutIndigenous people, about Asian
(39:45):
migrants, and I didn't stop it.
But I'd like to think that Ihave matured since then and so
have my views, and these days Ijust would not tolerate it and
in myself I'm proud to be Jewish.
If anyone asks, I'll tell them,and if it's relevant I'll tell
them, but I have no compunctionin being proud of who I am.
(40:08):
There was a period of time whenI was quite religious not
anymore as much and I startedwearing kippah and the only
people who gave me flack for itwere Jews who would say right,
they've turned you, they'veconverted you.
But everyone else was justcompletely respectful of it.
(40:29):
I once wore a kippah to my highschool in Year 12, to school,
just to see what happened.
Nothing happened.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Wow, you were into the research before you'd even
left school.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I don't know if I fell into it because I'm so
interested in other people'sviewpoints.
I'm so conscious that myviewpoint may not be the right
one and I'm open to changing it.
I don't like dogma.
It really bothers me.
In the broader community andthe Jewish community, I think
(41:03):
you can open yourself up and youcan even have contradictions in
your life, because I think mostpeople, if not all, have
contradictions in their life andwhat they believe and what they
actually do.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That's a lovely way to end this conversation.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
It's been great talking with you, Nia.
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
Really enjoyed it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
That was social and consumer researcher and author
Nia Korn.
And that's it for today'sepisode.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me Tammy
Sussman.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (41:38):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
If you liked the episode, forward it to a mate.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
You can tell them that the episode was nearly as
enjoyable as a finger in a bum.
You can make complaints aboutthese episodes via the contact
form on the Jewish Independentwebsite or email us.
Tell us what you're ashamed ofor topics you'd like us to cover
.
The email address is ashamed atthejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
As always, thanks for your support, and I'm going to
take a break for the next fewweeks as I'm heading off
overseas, so look out for Tammyand her special guests.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
We're going to miss you Dash.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
You got your short shorts ready?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I do indeed, I'm actually thinking about going
half tights this time around,but yeah, okay, because what's
the weather like in the UK?
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Coldish.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Okay, half tights I like it.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
See you in a few weeks.
Tammy, all right, half tights,I like it.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
See you in a few weeks, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
All right, Bye Dash.
Thank you.
Are you interested in issues affecting Jews in
Australia, the Middle East andthe world at large, but
struggling to keep up with thenews cycle?
Are you already over matzah?
Were you ghosted by a propheton the weekend?
If you answered yes to thosequestions, then you've come to
the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Chag Sameach everyone .
I'm Dash Lawrence from theJewish Independent and, in this
podcast series, your irreverentthird cousin, your perennial
Seder clown, tammy Sussman, andI call on experts and each other
to address all of your ignorantquestions that you've been too
ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast.
Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Hello everyone, I'm Tammy.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I'm Dash.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Dash is the Executive Director of the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
And I'm thrilled to announce that very soon, tammy
will be the Chief Vibe Officerof TJI.
Pending board approval Tammy,did you write that?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, I just edited the script real quick before we
started recording.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, I don't recall that.
I had that in there originally.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, well, you know be the change Dash.
How do I look today?
Listeners can't see me, but youcan.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You're looking very green today.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I'm looking green.
Yeah, the wall behind me isgreen.
I'm recording from mygrandmother's house because I
did move over the weekend andthe apartment that I've moved
into is very noisy.
It's right on a main road andit's next to a police station so
there are random eruptions ofsirens every few minutes.
So I thought you know ourlisteners may not want to hear
(02:00):
that they might get some ofMaroubra's best bird noises from
outside my grandmother's window.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Love that A few aeroplanes.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Dash, I thought you were going to say I look tired
because I feel tired.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yes, you look tired.
But, Tammy, that isunderstandable.
You've just moved apartments onthe weekend.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Moving is a huge undertaking.
It's an enormous job and Dash.
I couldn't have done it withoutmy village, my friends, my
family.
I spent a lot of time with myparents over the weekend maybe a
bit too much time with my dad.
(02:43):
For those listeners who alsofollow me on social media, he's
the guy who's always in thehigh-vis vest.
He works in construction, inmaterials, handling, traffic
control.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Would not want to mess with your dad.
I get gruff vibes from your dadnot me personally, just from
the little bits and pieces thatI've picked up through social
media.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Couldn't be further from the truth.
He's the biggest softie.
Oh, is he.
Anyway, because of hisbackground in project management
, he project managed the wholemove.
He got in there, he was veryhands-on, he's almost 70 and he
was lifting and he was on hisfeet from 7 am to 7 pm
(03:30):
industrious yeah, so spendingthat amount of time with him was
a really great opportunity forme to hear him rehash every
catchphrase I've heard him sayover the past 30 plus years.
Such as he will answer the phoneand he'll say how are they
(03:52):
hanging Bit to the left bit tothe right.
Okay, doing such a great job.
I don't care what anyone saysabout you.
I think you're great.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Oh yeah, that one.
I heard a new one from my dad.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Oh yeah, that one.
I heard a new one from my dad.
Oh yeah, he and a mate weremeasuring my fridge and they
realised that it was going tofit exactly.
And my dad said, oh, it'll fitlike a finger in a bum.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Okay, not sure that that's for ATA listeners, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Like a finger in a bum.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yep, yep, did not need that visual.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Have you heard that one before?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Never heard that one.
Don't really want to hear thatone again, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Last week I heard you say swings and roundabouts.
I'd never heard that before.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Every now and again I might be guilty of a cliche or
two, but like if I say somethinglike that, I'm taking the mick.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Taking the mick.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I'm not being sincere .
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think in Melbourne you have different catchphrases.
I've never heard swings aroundabout the four and I've never
heard take the mick.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Right or drain the weasel.
That was a new one for you.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Please let me keep that in the episode, because
we're like besties.
Now I'm like Dash, I've got togo do a pish, which for our
non-Jewish listeners is I needto pee.
And then one time Dash said Ineed to go drain the weasel.
What about this one Dash?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Go on.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
When you were growing up?
Did you hear any boomers inyour life say I'm not racist, I
hate everyone the same?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
No, I've heard the.
I'm not racist, but I heardthat one.
That's like the classicindicator that someone's just
about to say something thatactually is racist or prejudice,
but they're astute enough toknow that they should frame it
in a more palatable fashion.
But your dad just jumpsstraight to it.
He's like I'm not racist, Ijust hate everyone.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
I hate everyone the same.
I think that's a sentimentshared by a lot of Australians.
What do you think as a whiteAnglo man?
Do you perceive Australia as aracist country?
Do you?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
perceive Australia as a racist country.
Such a big, broad, generalquestion.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Sorry.
You don't want to answer it, doyou?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
As John Safran once said with regard to religious
extremists in his book, dependswhat you mean by racist.
This conversation today is, Ithink, going to surprise our
listeners, those who adopt theimmediate position that, yes,
Australia is a racist country oryes, Australians have a problem
(06:39):
with racism.
Our guest today has thrown kindof new light and provoked me to
rethink this question about howprevalent are racist attitudes
and prejudice in Australia.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
It depends on what the algorithm is serving me.
When I see a lot of contentabout racism against Jews, or I
see news reports about newincidents of violence against
other minority groups, then Ithink, yeah, okay, Australia has
a racism problem.
But then I might read anarticle like the one Nia Korn
(07:20):
wrote for the Jewish Independentand and I might go back to the
fence and sit on that fence fora little bit.
I haven't made up my mind.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Some people do get quite provoked by this question,
particularly if you're more onthe right side of politics.
You sort of tend to view thatAustralia has nothing to
apologise for or nothing to feelshameful of.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Ashamed to admit.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
And I just think that you know, it's just not true,
and Nir talks about this in hisarticle.
Maybe it's just about the levelof how overt it is.
Maybe that's another way ofrethinking it.
Maybe Australians arewithholding their prejudice than
other countries.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
It's a question that I still don't have an answer to.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Joining us in the studio today is Nir Korn, a
social and consumer researcherand author.
His work with the Korn Grouphas produced over 120
large-scale reports onAustralian society.
He's a popular speaker atconferences and company planning
days on social issues andtrends, and his range of
(08:27):
speaking topics covers everyavenue of Australian life.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Nia's writing and commentary has regularly been
published in newspapers andmagazines nationally, including
now for the Jewish Independent.
Nia's three non-fiction titlesinclude Shades of Belonging,
conversations with AustralianJews, life Behind Bars,
conversations with Violent MaleInmates and his latest book
(08:53):
She'll Be Right or Will she?
A Journey into the AustralianPsyche.
We hope you enjoy thisconversation with a man who gets
to talk to Australians nearCorn, near corn.
(09:31):
Welcome to the ashamed to admitstudio.
Thank you very much near.
I understand that you've been asocial researcher for 25 years.
As a part of that career, youhave run hundreds and hundreds
of focus groups and I'm wantingto know what have you learned
(09:52):
about Australians over time andhow have you seen a change in
attitudes over that time thatyou've been interviewing
Australians?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
Fundamentally, australians are good people.
They're caring people, theyreally believe in the live and
let live attitude and they'rerespectful of each other.
The radical ideas or thoughtswere not present in all this
time until recently.
(10:25):
Not present in all this timeuntil recently, and now I'm
getting an inkling of it,because the entire Western world
has become quite divided and nolonger is there much of a
middle ground.
It feels like you have to takean extreme position either way,
so you're either very extreme onthe right or you're very
extreme on the left on variousissues.
(10:47):
But while Australia still has alarge middle ground, I could
see us slipping towards the wayAmerica is in that sense, where
the division is so strong andeveryone is adamant that their
opinion is the correct one asopposed to being open to others.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
That's so interesting .
So you are charting and seeingthe polarisation of our age
unfolding in the course of thesefocus groups and conversations.
Can you tell our listeners howthese sessions are run, what the
types of questions that you askpeople and why it's such a
(11:27):
powerful and valid insight intowhat ordinary Australians think
and feel?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
You've said you try to create an atmosphere that
would enable people to expresscontroversial views, to see if
you could uncover racism.
So I would love to know how youset that up.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Social research is really divided into two methods.
One is quantitative, when yousurvey people and find out what
they think, and the other one isqualitative, where it's all
open-ended.
It's not about the exact answerto which of these thoughts do
you think reflects you best, butit's more like what are your
(12:06):
thoughts, what do you believe?
And the way to get at that isby having random people.
I do it through companies whosejob it is to recruit people and
I give them a broad sense ofpeople.
It doesn't have to be veryexact.
I tend to divide the sexes inmy groups.
Otherwise you get quite a bitof tension in the group, which I
don't like.
I do it according tosocioeconomic very often, and I
(12:36):
do it geographically and by age,and then it's all open-ended.
Traditionally, a focus group isyou have a few people sitting in
a lounge room or an office andyou ask them questions that are
about their thinking.
So if they go, here's my answer.
I then say well, why, how didyou come to that?
And what I'm doing is siftingthrough all the different
answers to find the gold inthere.
(12:57):
What is the common factoroverall?
Why and how does it differbetween, say, people who live in
rural areas and people who livein cities and the way I manage
to get them, and each one has atopic of its own generally.
So you know, I might look athealth and wellbeing, I might
look at attitude, I might lookat work, and it all depends on
(13:18):
the topic I'm researching at thetime and I will do a whole lot
of focus groups and interviewson that topic and from there
what I will do is write a reportand then I go out and present
that to a whole lot of focusgroups and interviews on that
topic and from there what I willdo is write a report and then I
go out and present that to awhole lot of interested parties
who want to know what the broadunderstanding of people are so
they can fulfill their aims.
The way I do I manage to openit up, essentially by playing
(13:43):
the idiot Like I don't knowanything, and I make it clear to
them I don't know anything, soshare with me.
Allow them to say things thatare controversial is by saying
that's really interesting,because in all the other groups
I did, I heard somethingdifferent.
Or in the racism one.
When I look at that, I say topeople right, in other groups.
(14:06):
I hear that migrants from thiscountry are like this Don't you
find that?
And that gives them a chance toresist me.
And that's what I'm looking at.
How enthusiastic am I?
Are they about my view and say,yeah, that's right, that's what
I feel?
Or look, I don't feel that wayat all and to me that's gold,
(14:29):
because they resisted me andthey came up with an opinion and
then I can honestly say this iswhat they feel, and I test them
over and over to try and getthat sense from them.
So if I hold an extreme view,it's their opportunity to do
that and kind of reflect back atme.
And the most important thing isto create an atmosphere in the
(14:49):
group that allows people tospeak openly.
And that's done by theintroductions initially, and
they go to introduce themselvesand ask a basic and answer a
basic question.
And then we go through andsuddenly, if a group is great,
they've bonded with each otherand I can ask a question and
they will argue or debate itbetween themselves and I don't
(15:11):
have to do anything.
And often there's a silent timeand that's very difficult,
especially for me, because Ifeel like butting in and saying
something and I have to watchmyself and just sit there for as
long as it takes, untilsomebody else is uncomfortable
with the silence, and then theyspeak and that sparks other
people.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Fascinating.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So, nir, we've brought you on to the podcast
this week because you have justwritten a striking article in
the Jewish Independent, and thename of that article is Are
Australians Racist?
And in that piece you point outthat Australian Jews are
rightfully concerned, evenscared, by events locally and
(16:00):
globally since October 7.
So, with an eye to the spate ofanti-Semitic incidents over the
past few months, you ask thequestion is this a reflection of
broader anti-Semitic feelingsamong Australians or is it just
limited to a relatively smallnumber of disgruntled
(16:24):
individuals, of disgruntledindividuals?
So Dash and I are curious toknow is Australia a racist
country?
But before you answer that, canwe ask you what prompted you to
write the piece in the firstplace?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Because whenever you ask Australians, people tend to
adamantly say yes, we are racist.
And it seems to be the popularview that you read about the
media, in the media constantly,of how racist a country we are.
And having poked and prodded onthis for such a long time, I'm
(17:05):
adamant in my view, but it's avery unpopular one, you know.
I've lost geeks over it.
I've been kicked out of one ofthe main TV stations' newsroom.
There seems to be a realresistance to it and the sense
that yes, we are racist, but Ican't find the rationale for it.
(17:25):
And I also do not understandwhy people hold on to that view
so strongly when there's verylittle evidence of it.
And what we see is, every timethere's a racial incident, every
time something happens, it'simmediately said see, we are
racist, see, that's a reflectionof who the country is.
(17:47):
But I see the opposite.
We've seen so many years whereit's been ingrained on us that
we're a multicultural societyand, as I said in the beginning,
we're inherently a live and letlive society and that's the
important bit, that it's liveand let live.
Do what you like, like be,whatever religion you are, wear
(18:10):
whatever garb you have, exceptfor the nikbah, and at the same
time you come across people fromevery background in your
workplace, in cafes, infestivals, and everyone gets
along.
And then we have something thatcomes along like somebody
screams something on somebody ona train and suddenly it goes
(18:34):
viral and it means proof of that.
But the reason I say that weare so sensitive to it is, in
fact, because we're not racistand it shocks us.
For Jews, there's a sense ofparanoia whenever something is
mentioned that's anti-Semitic.
And I would say, just becausesomebody graffitis a wall or
(18:56):
puts a Palestinian flag up, thatmight say that that person is
anti-Semitic.
Maybe the group they belong tois anti-Semitic but does not
reflect the popular view acrossthe place.
And even when I say, but lookat that group and what they do
and how we view them and look atthat group, look at Asians.
(19:16):
They don't assimilate andpeople just fight back against
it.
People don't believe it andessentially they don't even
think about it.
It's not an issue that'sforemost in people's minds and
it's also not something peoplewant to see in Australia.
They do want to see thateveryone gets along.
Now I should say that anexception to this is Indigenous
(19:40):
Australians, and it's a muchmore complex issue.
That would require an entirepodcast, because there's a lot
of underlying elements to itthat we have to understand
before we can make an opinion onthat.
What I find in the Jewishcommunity is that they're so
sensitive to anything that'santi-Israel, and I have a
(20:03):
feeling of where that all comesfrom is a sense of panic and
paranoia.
And suddenly we're back in1930s Austria.
Burning cars and burning asynagogue is horrific, but again
it doesn't reflect widerAustralian society.
People didn't sit at home,watch the TV or their screen and
(20:24):
clap their hands in support.
Yeah, look what they did to theJews.
That is not the case.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
So, nia, what I'm hearing you say is that there
are many examples and obviouslywe've had some particularly
recently of anti-Semitic attacks, and you would accept as valid
the examples that Jewishcommunity might point to.
But what you would question isthat there is a population-wide
(20:58):
level of anti-Semitism.
That you're saying.
Look at the data.
It's just not borne out in thequalitative data that you have
seen over many years and also inthe quantitative data.
Have I got that right, nir?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yes, one thing that came up for me in the groups
over and over again isAustralians don't mind migrants.
At the moment they're mindedbecause of housing issues and et
cetera.
But they say look, there's onething we expect from migrants in
our country and that is leaveyour problems behind.
(21:35):
And I think that those whosupport the Palestinian cause
have done themselves and thecore cause a great disservice in
Australia.
When they see these marcheswith these big b in Australia,
when they see these marches withthese big banners and when they
see it turning violent, theysay this doesn't belong in
Australia.
If you really want to do this,go back to your country and do
(21:58):
it.
At the same time, they see theJewish people having these
vigils with songs, withappointed speeches, and they
could also look at October 7thand be horrified by it.
The things that happened topeople, to young people, at a
(22:19):
music concert, at a musicfestival.
I mean those things Australianscan look at and look, I think
there is a predisposition tothink of people from Muslim
backgrounds as being violent.
You know and you hear a lot oftimes Muslim leaders say Islam
is a religion of peace, and whatAustralians respond to that is
(22:42):
really Really.
How can you possibly say thatwhen what they see is ISIS and
terrorism and things like that?
So they don't actually reflectthat.
And I've got to say that theMuslims community have it much
harder than the Jewish communitydoes.
Ever since 9-11 has been thatcase.
(23:04):
It's much harder to be a Muslimin Australia than to be a
Jewish person in Australia.
And I remember recently hearinga rabbi speak and he was saying
people ask me isn't itdifficult when I wear such
obvious Jewish outfits, isn't itracist constantly?
And he said you know, I do getnasty comments shouted at me
(23:26):
from cars, but at the same timeI have nice comments shouted at
me from cars and you have tobalance it out and to suggest
that the person who shouts itout is a reflection of Australia
.
I think it's a really badmistake to make, because our
self-reflection does notcelebrate the fact that we
(23:47):
celebrate difference, but it's areflection of the negative.
So, yes, those Jewish incidentsare horrendous.
They're horrendous, theyshouldn't happen and people wish
that the government would crackdown on it.
So any talk, for example, ofcancelling the visas of people
who act like that.
(24:08):
People said absolutely weshould do that because we don't
see these things.
People remember one thing whenthey say Australia is a racist
country, and that was theCronulla riots in Sydney.
And that was when there was aclash between Anglo-Australians
and a certain sector of theMuslim community in Australia
(24:32):
and that became violent.
People were hurt.
It spread through text messages.
There were violent incidentsacross Sydney in different
places.
But think about this thathappened over 20 years ago.
Is that the best we can do whenwe think about Australia as a
racist country?
That was so long ago and that'swhat retains the memory of
(24:56):
people.
And since then there's been solittle, apart from specific
incidents at specific times.
And when I really push peopleand I ask them, what do I do in
the groups?
I turn them to people who areobviously ethnic and I say, all
right, tell me what happened toyou.
And they struggle and then theysay you know, once we were
(25:17):
walking and somebody shouted atme and well, okay, that's bad,
but is it really that bad?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Nir, I'm surprised by a lot of what you're saying.
Something which stood out to mefrom your article was when you
wrote about theinstitutionalised racism against
Indigenous Australians.
You wrote it's an ever-presentstain.
So how do we hold that truthwhilst also talking about
(25:49):
anti-Semitism and theIslamophobia that you've just
mentioned and other forms ofprejudice, without descending
into a kind of competitivesuffering?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
It's really, really complicated.
The institutionalised racism isapparent in some areas and we
just talked to police in theNorthern Territory of Western
Australia, where recentcommissions have seen that that
has been the case and incidentsreflect that.
Look at the fact that weimprison more Indigenous people
(26:25):
per capita than any othercountry in the world.
Look, I did a book aboutprisons where I went and I spoke
to violent inmates, includingIndigenous ones, and what they
said to me is look, I'm morecomfortable in prison than I am
in greater society because theycan feel it.
You know, one of the guys toldme and he was young, he was only
(26:46):
30, and he said to me, and helived in Redfern, and he said to
me you know, when we walk homefrom school, my parents tell me
to avoid the police whateverhappens, because it's so strong
in their mind.
So is the Stolen Generation,which is also very strong in
their mind.
Now, the reason?
(27:07):
It's multitude reasons, but oneof the biggest ones that I came
across was that Australians, byand large, have very little
experience of Indigenous people.
There's only two categoriesthat they know of those have
made it in broader society toleadership positions the Noel
(27:29):
Pearsons, if you like, and thenthere's the ones they notice on
the corner, drunk andfrightening, and that is so not
true.
When I spoke to people in ruralareas, they were telling me
that they have a much moresophisticated view of it.
There were the Indigenouspeople who were totally
(27:52):
dysfunctional in their lives,and for very good reason, and
they just avoided those areas.
And then there were all theIndigenous people who lived like
the rest of the community, whoworked with them, who shopped
with them, who dined with them,and they were just living normal
lives.
They just happened to beIndigenous.
(28:12):
But the overall sense is thatAustralians actually care about
Indigenous people.
They want them to succeed inlife.
They're ashamed by the factthat we haven't been able to
resolve this, despite having somany royal commissions, that
nothing has happened in regardto that and we continue to have
(28:33):
it.
They're ashamed of the factthat we stole the generations.
In fact, paul Keating's Redfordspeech, which is very much
lauded, where he said we stolethe people, we did this and we
did that, that would really fitthe mark to be played today.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Nia, the sense I get from reading your article and
from our conversation today isthis is maybe not how you would
characterise it, so feel free tocorrect me but is of a
relatively benign view that mostAustralians have to foreigners
and to the other, the other andyou point to this in the end of
(29:18):
the article where you ask thequestion so what do Australians
really think of Jews and Israel?
And you mention an example or aresponse that Vladimir Putin is
once have said when he wasasked at the APEC summit in 2007
, what does he think ofAustralia?
He responded I don't.
I don't think Right.
So we're left with theimpression that most Australians
(29:43):
have a relatively you knowbenign view of outsiders and
others, including Jews andIsrael, and that they don't
really know or really care care.
What about the view thatindifference is just as
dangerous as explicit racism orhate?
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Because that's the message I received at Jewish
school, especially when we werelearning about the Holocaust.
It was like the people who werethe perpetrators of the
Holocaust were bad, but so were.
The people who did nothing werebad, but so were the people who
did nothing.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
Australians don't need to think about it because
they don't see the problem.
Now, one of the things I'veobserved and I used to work at
the Jewish Board of Deputies inSydney many years ago and I used
to receive all the mediacuttings every day and all these
publications and my head wasfilled with Jewish, Jewish,
(30:40):
Jewish.
What do they think of us?
And when I left that job,suddenly it dawned on me it
doesn't exist in the outsideworld.
And I think, look, this hasbeen really controversial, I'm
sure, but I think part of it isthe fact that we teach our
children Jewish identity morefrom the negative than the
(31:03):
positive.
Look what they did to us, Lookwhat happened.
And I think that reallysensitizes us, and I'm really
surprised at the degree to whichthe Jews that I've spoken to
really feel like this isabsolute horror.
How can you turn a blind eye tothis?
And my response is what Ifinished the article with when
(31:27):
did you last think of theRohingyas in Myanmar?
I mean, their whole populationis being decimated.
There's a million of themliving on some island off Sri
Lanka as refugees.
Why don't you give them somethought?
And if you expect people tothink about October 7th.
Shouldn't you be thinking aboutthat as well?
(31:48):
Or what about the Yugos inChina?
I mean the re-education campsthat they're being sent to, and
I could name multitudes ofissues that we ignore.
And yet we expect the rest ofAustralia to be so concerned
about the things that bother usso much, and people see that as
(32:08):
a sign of broad anti-Semitism orlatent anti-Semitism.
So you're absolutely right.
The people who to say that, yeah, the people who to say that,
yeah, the people are silent,they're the problem.
But I would ask the jews areyou part of the problem or
solution?
You know what are you doing inyour life, because obviously
every community is caught upwith its own issues, but it's
(32:32):
such a focus that it makespeople seek the information and
ideas that reflect their ownpoint of view and not the
opposite, nothing else.
I know some people who get alltheir news for one particular
media source that tends to beall pro-Israel, all anti-Arab,
(32:53):
and it's a vindication for them,but nobody's out there thinking
of hold on a second, and myview, very strongly, is that the
suffering and pain that Jewishpeople feel is not mutually
exclusive of the suffering andpain that ordinary Palestinians
feel.
Now, to many people, that wouldmake me an absolute radical, and
(33:16):
yet I'm not comfortable witheither side, really, because
both views are very radical theanti-Israel camp and the
pro-Israel camp.
And I say that, by the way, asan Israeli former Israeli, I
guess, with all his family inIsrael.
One of my cousins died onOctober 7th.
I have a cousin who lost two ofhis best friends when he was in
(33:39):
a very high unit of the armyand they reached a trip wire and
he saw them explode rightbefore his eyes.
I'm a huge supporter of Israel,a passionate one, but I still
maintain what I think is aperspective that I think lacks
in the Jewish community and, asI said, that's a really
unpopular view to hold.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
It is and it will be interesting to see how people
respond to your thoughts in thispodcast today.
We did at the JewishIndependent did a study called
Crossroads 21, the largestsurvey of its kind of the
general Australian population ontheir attitudes towards Jewish
people and their attitudestowards the Israeli-Palestinian
(34:23):
conflict.
Nia, and I have to say, whatyou have raised today was borne
out in that data.
So, yes, very low levels ofantisemitism were exhibited in
the responses.
People had a generally, youknow, relatively favourable or
neutral view about Jewish people.
But critically, I think this isreally important to think about
(34:46):
today is, when asked about theconflict, most Australians and
I've talked about this on thepodcast before most Australians
do not take a strong positioneither for or against Israelis
or Palestinians.
They don't know, they don'tfeel informed enough to give an
answer or they don't have apreference.
Because you did say at thestart of this conversation,
(35:07):
you're seeing a slightradicalization in some of your
conversations and some of yourfocus groups.
People are starting to becomemore polarized.
We're going to actually do thatsurvey again this year.
Would you expect that the datawill probably be the same again,
that despite October 7th, therewouldn't have been a
significant shift in how peoplerespond.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
We expect there to be very little shift because they
don't think about it, they don'tcare about it.
You know, most people havetheir day-to-day run I've got to
get the kids to school, I'vegot to get the meal on the table
, I'm worried about paying forthings.
So I suspect there will be somenegative views of Israel
(35:50):
because of everything they see.
I mean, when they see on the TV, they see Gazans being bombed,
these kids, and they can't helpbut think, geez, that's mean of
the Israelis to do that.
And then they'll see images ofOctober 7, and it will merely
reinforce their view thatMuslims are violent people.
(36:12):
But overall, I don't expectthere to be much of a change.
By the way, when you askAustralians, what do you think
of Jews, you know they'rereluctant to say, but then
they'll say things like well,jews are rich, and I think it's
reasonable to say that many Jewsare rich.
I mean, the truth is that ahuge percentage of the Jewish
(36:32):
population is very poor.
The biggest housing commissionhere in Surrey Hills in Sydney
is filled with Jews from theformer Soviet Union who can
never afford to live anywhereelse.
But it's reasonable for them tosee the view that Jews are rich
.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Why is it reasonable?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
They see the you know , the fortune fire, the
Australian 500 richestAustralians.
Richest Australians wereoverrepresented in that list and
they also think the Jews arereally smart.
The Jews are very educated butoverall they see the Jews have
made a great contribution, not anegative one, a really positive
one.
(37:12):
But beyond that they don'tthink about it whatsoever.
You know, it doesn't crosstheir mind and most Australians
only interact with Jews.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I am in an author's group and an author colleague of
mine.
She loves going and runningauthor workshops in rural areas.
She says, tammy, I neverexperience antisemitism when I'm
there.
Antisemitism doesn't existbecause no one's ever met a Jew.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
If you ran your survey and made a concerted
effort overall which is why thisstory is so good to hear with
the arts community, you willfind there a very strong view
against Israel really strong, Isuspect.
And that's because that iswhere you find the if you like,
(38:07):
the radical division.
You know they're all probecause the right wing and
non-arts people are anti and Ithink it's fair to say that.
But also we are very sensitiveto it.
Just because a Palestinianauthor speaks at a writers'
festival doesn't make himanti-Semitic necessarily or the
(38:29):
organisation anti-Semitic.
It just means that they arereflecting views.
But, as I said, the artscommunity will tend in some
areas to look for the radical.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Well, I think it becomes anti-Semitic when there
isn't balance.
So it's fine for apro-Palestinian speaker to speak
at a festival, but when thereare five pro-Palestinians and no
Zionists or you know overtlyJewish panels or speakers, then
I think people have the right toget upset.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yes, you could even call that anti-Semitic.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
You know they'd call, as you know, people
rationalising it by saying it'santi-Zionist, but we all know
that it's the same thingessentially.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Nir, we ask all of our interviewees if they're
ashamed to admit.
Anything in general doesn'thave to be related to today's
chat.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I am vegetarian for many years and I'd love to be
vegan, but I'm ashamed of thefact that I can't give up dairy.
I was ashamed of my views many,many years ago, you know, when
I went to school I didn't stoppeople from making horrific
remarks about gay people, aboutIndigenous people, about Asian
(39:45):
migrants, and I didn't stop it.
But I'd like to think that Ihave matured since then and so
have my views, and these days Ijust would not tolerate it and
in myself I'm proud to be Jewish.
If anyone asks, I'll tell them,and if it's relevant I'll tell
them, but I have no compunctionin being proud of who I am.
(40:08):
There was a period of time whenI was quite religious not
anymore as much and I startedwearing kippah and the only
people who gave me flack for itwere Jews who would say right,
they've turned you, they'veconverted you.
But everyone else was justcompletely respectful of it.
(40:29):
I once wore a kippah to my highschool in Year 12, to school,
just to see what happened.
Nothing happened.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Wow, you were into the research before you'd even
left school.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I don't know if I fell into it because I'm so
interested in other people'sviewpoints.
I'm so conscious that myviewpoint may not be the right
one and I'm open to changing it.
I don't like dogma.
It really bothers me.
In the broader community andthe Jewish community, I think
(41:03):
you can open yourself up and youcan even have contradictions in
your life, because I think mostpeople, if not all, have
contradictions in their life andwhat they believe and what they
actually do.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
That's a lovely way to end this conversation.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
It's been great talking with you, Nia.
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
Really enjoyed it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
That was social and consumer researcher and author
Nia Korn.
And that's it for today'sepisode.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me Tammy
Sussman.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (41:38):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
If you liked the episode, forward it to a mate.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
You can tell them that the episode was nearly as
enjoyable as a finger in a bum.
You can make complaints aboutthese episodes via the contact
form on the Jewish Independentwebsite or email us.
Tell us what you're ashamed ofor topics you'd like us to cover
.
The email address is ashamed atthejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
As always, thanks for your support, and I'm going to
take a break for the next fewweeks as I'm heading off
overseas, so look out for Tammyand her special guests.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
We're going to miss you Dash.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
You got your short shorts ready?
Speaker 2 (42:25):
I do indeed, I'm actually thinking about going
half tights this time around,but yeah, okay, because what's
the weather like in the UK?
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Coldish.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Okay, half tights I like it.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
See you in a few weeks.
Tammy, all right, half tights,I like it.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
See you in a few weeks, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
All right, Bye Dash.
Thank you.
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