May 19, 2025 • 55 mins
Melbourne-based international lawyer and academic Michelle Lesh has spent two decades examining Israel's use – and misuse – of international law, with a particular focus on targeted killings. In this candid interview with Dash, Michelle opens up about recent attacks on Israel's democratic institutions and reflects on the extraordinary legacy of her late husband Mark Baker, whose posthumous memoir A Season of Death was recently named a finalist for the Age Book of the Year Award.
Don't miss Michelle speaking at the Sydney Writers Festival on May 22nd, or the opportunity to experience Mark's evocative photography at the Jewish Museum—an exhibition that beautifully complements his written legacy and runs until July.
See Tami & Dash in a LIVE recording of Ashamed to Admit at Limmud Oz Melbourne Sunday, 8 June.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/my-sense-of-collective-and-personal-belonging-has-been-shaken
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/mark-bakers-photography-comes-to-light
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/tji-series/remembering-mark-baker
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/fighting-for-democracy-while-facing-my-dayenu
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you interested in Jewish cultural and creative
events, especially those takingplace in Sydney and Melbourne
over the next few months?
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in today's episode I'll betalking with an Australian
Jewish lawyer, legal scholar,academic and editor whose work
was recently announced as afinalist in the Age Book of the
Year Award.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Who knows if she'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of the JewishIndependent podcast and we seem
to be dropping our shame alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yes, some of us more so than others.
Tammy.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Hello, I'm Dash Lawrence,executive Director here at the
Jewish Independent, and backfrom the 2025 London Marathon in
(01:11):
a time of three hours and 27minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
He has to mention the marathon.
I'm Tammy, I wear bike shortsnow, apparently, sussman Dash,
you thought you were the onlyone who liked to get out their
thighs.
As of last month, I do too.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Pray tell, I did not expect you to be ever wearing
bike shorts.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
You're quite right, because you're in Melbourne and
I'm in Sydney and usually we seeeach other over our podcasting
software, which is just torso up, it's torso face.
You never get to see me torsodown, which is a relief because
quite often I'm not wearingpants.
I knew it, but those close to mein Sydney know that I am not a
(02:01):
shorts wearer because I've had alifelong fear of bike shorts an
irrational fear, if you likeand I discovered that a few
weeks ago when a friend cameover to help me set up my Hinge
dating app profile.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
About time Tammy.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I don't know if you know much about Hinge, but Hinge
is different to the other appswhere it's just like pictures.
Hinge is like the the otherapps where it's just like
pictures.
Hinge is like the smartperson's dating app.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Tell me more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Tammy.
Okay, so you put your photosthere.
I think you get to choose six.
You can put videos and theyalso give you funny prompts that
you have to answer.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
You'd ace this game.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, one of the prompts what's your irrational
fear?
And I told my friend that myrational fear is bike shorts.
I don't really like to show mylegs and she said we'll work on
that, but the one that I endedup going with so that I could do
code my profile.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I said, my irrational fear is that you'll throw out
perfectly good leftovers.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Subtle.
I like it Sending a bat signalto any Jewish users on Hinge.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Or allies.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes, or allies Yep.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You know, I am all about subtle.
So if there's one thing peoplesay when they hear my name
subtle.
So if there's one thing peoplesay when they hear my name, it's
oh, tammy Sussman.
Yeah, she's subtle.
No, I did write that I wasJewish on my profile too, just
to sift out the far left and farright.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
How has your venture into the world of online dating
and hinge gone, Tammy?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You want me to spill the tea, don't you I?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
do.
How's it gone with the profilethat you did have up there?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
With the venture into online dating.
I know you want to know allabout it.
And I know our listeners do too, because they're a smart bunch,
they're an empathetic bunch andthey're also a nosy bunch.
Okay, so you know what?
How about I spill a bit of teaat our live session at Limwood
(04:10):
Oz, melbourne, over the Junelong weekend?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Absolutely yes.
For those of you who live inMelbourne, we would love to see
you.
On Sunday, the 8th of June,tammy and I will be hosting our
very first live recording of AShame to Admit, 4 o'clock,
linwood Oz.
Jump online, check out all thedetails and see the rest of the
(04:36):
fabulous program that theLinwood Committee have worked up
this year, sponsored by noneother than Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So so let's circle back to your thighs, your legs,
Dash.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Okay, right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
What did you wear when you were running in London
Marathon?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I had a last minute turn towards half tights running
half tights.
I hadn't been a tight runnerthroughout my running career,
but just in the last few monthsI've really enjoyed the
aerodynamics of a good pair ofrunning tights.
So I changed my attire withjust a few weeks out from the
(05:15):
marathon I said you know what?
I think I'm going to run LondonMarathon in a pair of running
half tights because they aresuper comfortable.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Look at us.
When we started this podcast, Iwas heavily into passive wear
didn't own a single item ofactive wear and you were heavily
deeply into shorts, and nowyou've transitioned into half
tights.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yep, that's me.
Just so much growth anddevelopment I've bought two
pairs since the marathon, infact color black and navy blue.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I may be wearing a pack, I may be wearing a pair
right now, but you can't see it,so you'll never know I love how
you were just so proud of likeblack and you're like no, no, no
, not just black, I've also gotnavy blue.
This is not a visual medium, sowhat I'm thinking is that the
(06:10):
Jewish independent socials needto get a photo of you in your
half tights.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I don't think that's necessary.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I just think there's not enough thigh chat in this
podcast in general.
I think that should be arecurring topic of conversation.
There's also not enough beef.
There's not enough conflict ortension.
You were the one who said fromthe very beginning that the
podcast duos who get the mostengagement are the ones who
fight.
And you're in Melbourne, I'm inSydney, don't you think we
(06:45):
could like play more with thatrivalry?
We could do more with it.
I know what Melburnians sayabout Sydneysiders.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You're all lacking in culture, lacking in.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That's exactly what you think you do, don't you?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Of course.
That's why we choose to live inMelbourne and not in Sydney.
You can have all your beaches.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
You choose to live in Melbourne because not in Sydney
you can have all your beaches.
You choose to live in Melbournebecause of the prices.
You can't afford to live inSydney.
That's the truth.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That's true, yep.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Got anything mean to say about Sydney Dash?
Come on, hit me Sydney Jews.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Honestly, I don't think you could handle it.
Okay, have a try.
It could be deleterious for ourrelationship.
There could be ramificationsthat I don't know I want to live
with.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Deleterious.
Now you're just trying topatronize me with your extensive
vocabulary.
That's what's happening now.
You've got nothing bad to sayabout Sydney, but you're like
I'll just make her feelinadequate.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Would you prefer that we talked about house prices or
real estate?
Is that a safer conversationwhen talking to someone from
Sydney?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I don't want the safe conversations here, Dash.
Can you see what I'm trying todo?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I'm trying to create an unsafe space.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, I am Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I've missed you too, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
When I come to Melbourne for Limwood, I am
going to exclusively wear activewear just to piss off all the
Melbourne Jews.
I'm going to offend them, I'mgoing to show up to every formal
event in like my Pilates wearand I'm going to speak with a
Sydney, south African twingeaccent.
Okay, just to trigger everyone.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Looking forward to it .
Tammy, we've got a show to geton with.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Tammy, we've got a show to get on with Melburnians.
I love you.
Your coffee's great and you'recultured and that's hot.
So while the Sydney Jews arespending their time at Pilates
on the weekend, you guys are outthere at the galleries.
You're seeing art, You'reseeing photography.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What exhibition are you hoping to see this month?
Dash Well, tammy.
The Jewish Museum is currentlyexhibiting an exhibition that I
did not anticipate.
This is quite a lovely surprise.
The Jewish Museum has recentlyopened a collection of original
photographs by the late MarkBaker.
(09:07):
The exhibition is called theThings you Cannot See
Photography of Mark RaphaelBaker and, for those of you who
don't know Mark or don't havesome understanding of who he was
, mark died in 2023.
Who he was Mark died in 2023.
(09:31):
He was a renowned historian,teacher, writer, and is
celebrated here in Australia andinternationally for his
lifelong commitment to bearingwitness and exploring humanity.
His exhibition of photographyhis first ever, in fact,
showcases a vital extension ofthis lifelong commitment to
bearing witness.
The exhibition contains Mark'sphotographs spanning countries,
(09:54):
cultures, decades, and offers anintimate glimpse into everyday
life, emotions and relationships.
The Things you Cannot Seeexplores both the seen and the
unseen and invites a deeperunderstanding of the shared
human experience.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Mark Baker's memoir Dash A Season of Death, as you
know, was published in 2024.
It was edited by his wife,michelle Lesh, and her
stepfather, raymond Gator.
Now Michelle will be appearingat this year's Sydney Writers
Festival Dash, a cultural eventin Sydney.
Better believe it.
Michelle's event is thisThursday, the 22nd of May, at
(10:35):
11am.
She'll be in conversation withthe delightful Michaela Kolowski
.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Michelle Lesh is an international lawyer, has taught
at the Melbourne Law School andthe London School of Economics
and worked at the United Nations, and is a member of the
International Bar AssociationWar Crimes Committee.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
She has written for a variety of academic and
non-academic publications.
Loveliest person and she's ourspecial guest, but in particular
your special guest, dash,because you interviewed her for
today's a shame to admitinterview.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So, Michelle, I'd like to learn a little bit about
your entry into the law.
How is it that a young womanfrom Melbourne ends up interning
for one of the most famous,most important jurists in
Israel's history, Aaron Barak,and ultimately ends up working
for one of its most importanthuman rights organisations?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Well, I really got interested in this during my law
degree at Monash University andI'd always had a deep personal
and family connection to Israel.
My mother is nine generationsIsraeli.
One side of her family is 22generations Israeli.
They've been there since theSpanish Inquisition and my
(12:12):
grandfather was a Holocaustsurvivor and he fought in 1948
and he always taught me aboutthe land, his love of it and his
awareness that there were otherpeople there, that the land was
shared with the Palestinians,and he instilled that in me and
while I was studying law.
(12:33):
It was during the secondintifada, so quite a long time
ago, and there were seriousquestions about how to fight
what was called asymmetricalwars.
Now that question has been ininternational for a long time.
It didn't start with Israel butbecause of that connection and
interest I had in Israel, I waswondering how the law could
(12:56):
respond adequately to themorally and politically complex
realities and circumstances ofthat complex.
And I was troubled by theincreasing civilian suffering
and I continue to be about inrelation to that conflict and
global conflicts around theworld.
So I went during myundergraduate years and I did a
(13:17):
internship at an Israeli humanrights organisation called Bet
Selem and at the time theorganisation was really thinking
and questioning the adequacy ofinternational law and how you
deal with asymmetrical warfareand protect civilians on the one
hand and also deal withquestions of who is a civilian,
(13:39):
who are considered fighters whenyou're dealing with a
non-traditional army.
And then I went back to Israela couple of years later and I
worked at the Supreme Court withChief Justice Aron Barak and it
was a real honour to work withBarak because at the time it was
a really serious question aboutwhether the law was adequate to
(14:01):
the realities of the ground.
Because, as I said, it raisedthese questions about how the
category of civilian works inthe law and whether there
actually was this equivalencebetween, for example, a mother
and a daughter walking down thestreet on the footpath and the
commander of Hamas, whoorganized the suicide bombing
(14:23):
but may also be deemed acivilian under the law because
they're not wearing a uniform orcarrying arms openly.
So at that time, the question ofcivilian raised all these
questions about whether innocentbystanders on the street were
considered the same as acommander, and that's what
(14:44):
interested me and I continuedthat work in my PhD.
And then, when we think abouthow the law has evolved and
circumstances has evolved in thetime of targeted killings, at
that time, during Barak'sjudgment in 2006, you could
(15:06):
honestly say that, howeverterrible that expression is,
that the mother and the childcould have been deemed what we
call collateral damage becauseit wasn't intentional and that
it was seriously regretted.
But when we look now at what'sgoing on in Gaza, there doesn't
(15:27):
seem to be any comparisonbecause the situation is so
inflated.
We see that there are one ton,100 ton bombs being dropped on a
Hamas commander.
That's killing 100 people, notone or two people, and we keep
(15:48):
hearing things that it'sregrettable.
Yet it's a kind of legitimateaction and it's hard to say this
is anything but cynical,because with it is Israel's
continued existence during thiswar that it's following
international law, even thoughwe're all watching day-by-day
images of what is happeningthere and can see that there's
(16:12):
this complete contempt ofinternational law.
So what I find interesting andreally important is that the
target of killing judgmenthowever important it was at the
time, is not really relevant tothis war in Gaza, because it's
such a radically different war.
(16:32):
It's on a different plane, it'sof a different scale and it's
of a different kind.
You know, know, at the time ofthe targeted killing case,
people were really concernedabout what it meant to be a
civilian and I feel like thisconflict is different for Israel
from all its previous wars,even from the 1948 war, from
what the Nakba was for thePalestinians, because of the way
(16:56):
the war has completely mockedinternational law.
And you know, when we talkabout things like
proportionality, when we see thedestruction now it kind of
feels like a bit of an obscenityand that proportionality isn't
relevant, which is a, you know,really important concept of the
(17:17):
law, because what we see beforeus is the complete destruction
of Gaza.
We're talking about things likehumanitarian access being denied
and starvation, and I don'tthink anybody at the time that
the targeted killing judgmentwas written would ever have
believed that it would come tothis.
(17:39):
Whatever have believed that itwould come to this.
So I feel like there's a bigdifference between where we were
then and what's going on now inGaza.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You cite the example of Gaza, but what about the
example of the attacks inLebanon directed at Hezbollah's
leadership?
Those attacks were seen by many, including people that would
often be very critical of Israel, as commendable, that is, that
(18:16):
they removed the threat thatIsrael faced from Hezbollah,
crippled that threat and forsome it was an act to be
applauded because it achievedthe intention of removing the
Hezbollah leadership.
How did you look on it?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
The targeted killings in Lebanon.
What happened in Lebanon, thetargeted killings in Lebanon,
what happened in Lebanon, aredifferent in kind from what's
happening in Gaza for differentreasons.
One of them is legally it'sdifferent, and you know I'll
talk about that a bit.
But I think something that'simportant to remember is that,
(18:57):
even though something might beconsidered successful or
politically legitimate, that isoften irrelevant when we talk
about the law.
And international law is quitecomplex and on the one hand, you
know it might seem pedantry totalk about distinctions, about
what type of conflict isoccurring, but it's actually
(19:21):
important when you go into it,and I won't go into the details
and the nitty-gritty of the lawnow, but how you classify a
situation legally has importantimplications about whether it is
permissible under the law, andI'll give one example is Gaza
know, how that conflict isclassified, whether it's
(19:42):
international ornon-international, has
implications.
It makes it controversial aboutwhether you say Israel acts in
self-defense in going into Gaza,which, when you think about it
politically or from a non-legalperspective, that seems strange.
And with Lebanon, similarissues arise because of the fact
(20:02):
that you're doing across-border attack into another
country.
It raises issues whether therewas a just cause to carry out
those attacks, whether itcreated, whether there was
existing in a type ofinternationalized armed conflict
and basically the use of forceis dependent on what legal rules
(20:24):
apply.
So when you breach thesovereign territory of another
country, that then raises awhole lot of legal issues.
And another example that I justwant to give, because I think
it's important to understand whylegal rules and the legal
regimes are important, is Gaza.
(20:49):
When I worked at the commissionof inquiry at the UN on the
protests along the Gaza fence in2018 and 2019, which I
ultimately resigned from thatcommission of inquiry, which
wasn't an easy thing to do, andin the end I resigned, not
because I necessarily disagreedwith the conclusions of the
(21:11):
commission about Israel'sconducts and its potential
violations of international law,but because of the way they got
to those conclusions and theintegrity of international law.
It was assumed, without muchargument at the Commissioner of
Inquiry, that the relevant lawthat would apply to assessing
(21:34):
the conduct at the protest washuman rights law.
It was a law enforcementsituation and it had the kind of
absurd consequence that if10,000 people were to break
through the fence the onlyresponse available would be
arresting those people.
(21:56):
And that's the consequence ofassuming that the protest was a
civil disobedience, a kind of acivil protest rather than arms
resistance.
But there was at the time clearconcern and good reason to
believe at the time, but thecommission chose not to
investigate it, even though itwas later confirmed that Hamas
(22:18):
were there and ready toencourage and exploit surges of
the French to break down thefence in which thousands of
people could have gone intoIsrael, and no one believes that
they would have walked inpeacefully into the neighbouring
kibbutzim with placards sayingpeace now.
So, we see the way differentlegal regimes affect how you
(22:43):
carry out.
You know the response and thenthe legality of that response
and you know it sounds technical, but it actually has
implications in how we viewsituations and those legal
implications then have politicalimplications too.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So, like Lebanon and Gaza are just two examples of
how complex international lawcan be, and it's important that
we, you know, understand it andit's applied rigorously and
accurately let's um zoom out fora moment, because we're talking
about laws, both international,but also Israel's laws, and the
(23:27):
legal system in Israel thatoffers some form of a bulwark
against the misuse and the abuseof power and also has
ultimately served Israel verywell since its establishment.
In the last few years, thatlegal system, the institutions
(23:48):
of democracy have come underenormous attack and you are
someone that has dedicated yourworking life to contributing to
those democratic institutions,your working life to
contributing to those democraticinstitutions.
What has it been like for you,michelle, sitting here in
Melbourne looking at afar onwhat has been happening within
Israel with regard to theattacks on the democratic
(24:11):
institutions?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, I mean it's devastating.
A lot of us for the last 18months have been carrying a lot
of pain for different reasons,but also there is a commonality.
Often, I think the concernsabout Israel's democratic
institutions, as you kind ofalluded to, existed long before
(24:32):
Gaza.
But what Gaza?
What the war in Gaza has doneis it's undermined those
institutions even more so thegovernment you could hardly call
it a functioning governmentSince October 7, it's refused to
establish a commission ofinquiry to investigate why
(24:52):
October 7 was able to occur.
Who bears responsibility?
Who bears responsibility?
Events after October 7, the warin Gaza and allegations of
violations that are occurringthere.
And one of the things I workedon when I was in Israel was I
was a legal advisor for theTurkle Commission, which was a
(25:13):
commission of inquiry that wasset up to try and revamp
Israel's military justice systemand put in place different
safeguards and mechanisms toensure that when there were
allegations of violations ofinternational law, they were
investigated in a way that wasindependent and impartial and in
(25:35):
keeping and in line withinternational law.
And it's an over 1,000-pagereport that kind of did
comparative studies of sixdifferent military justice
systems around the world.
It interviewed military legaladvisors, political legal
advisors, ngos, internationallawyers.
It had members on thecommission who were experts
(25:58):
internationally from outsideIsrael, a former Supreme Court
judge at the head of it and itwas considered a serious and
rigorous report that thegovernment at the time accepted
and in fact implemented changeswithin the military justice
system to ensure those stepswere taken.
(26:19):
And when you think about thefact that since the war in Gaza
following October 7th, therehaven't been serious
investigations into violationsof international law, when we
see the most flagrant violationsof international law happening
(26:41):
every day in Gaza and theterribleness of that it's just
it's hard to express howdevastating it is because Israel
, under the Netanyahu government, has shown complete contempt
for international law, contemptfor international law.
(27:03):
And you know we're seeing nowthat there's within Israeli
society there's a refusal toserve.
That's both open dissent andwhat they're calling quiet
refusal, which is not showing up, just not turning up for duty.
I read today that soldiers arearguing that it actually serves
their country better or at leasttheir families better if they
don't serve.
And I know that quiet refusaldoesn't, and in most cases
(27:25):
doesn't, actually have to dowith the justice or the legality
of the war, but it's to do withthe kind of degree of the
complete lack of sensitivity bysome military commanders and
politicians in regard to thisenormous sacrifice they're
asking of ordinary citizens,what we call citizen soldiers.
(27:48):
Amos Harrell, the militarycorrespondent for Haaretz, has
been warning against thedemoralization of the IDF for
over a year now, and nobodybelieves Israel could get enough
soldiers into Gaza now to dowhat Netanyahu wants to do.
And I just see this as anotherexample of contempt that the
(28:10):
Netanyahu government has forordinary soldiers that they've
so exhausted and, in some cases,demoralized them.
And it's a case of thisgovernment showing the same kind
of disdain for its citizens asit's shown in its actions
against the Supreme Court, itssavage attacks against the IDF,
(28:30):
the Shin Bet, the AttorneyGeneral, undermining the
government's respects forinstitutions that are
fundamental to democracy andwhat a lot of Israelis are now
seeing as an unwinnable, foreverwar.
And I know I get asked all thetime about Mark in relation to
(28:52):
this Mark's voice, the absenceof his voice.
People have a craving, alonging to know what he might
say, and obviously I can't speakfor Mark.
I can't say what I think hewould say.
I know he'd be horrified anddevastated about what's going on
(29:14):
.
Generally, we did share similaropinions on Israel.
Obviously there were somedifferences too.
One of his wishes for me was toinstil in our daughter, malila,
a love for Israel and a fiercecriticism of it.
(29:35):
Mark, you know, deeply lovedIsrael and was criticised at two
, which made him this figure inthe community, which was often
considered a controversial voice, but it always came from a
place of love.
I think he'd be, you know,obviously deeply concerned about
anti-Semitism, but I don'tthink his concerns about
(29:59):
anti-Semitism would be inconflict with criticism he may
have of Israel, severe criticismpossibly.
I think he would have felt thathe could do both and he
wouldn't have to choose.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
But yeah, you know, I also would love to know what
Mark would be thinking now andhave his guidance, like many of
us, For those of us who eithergrew up in or called the
Melbourne Jewish community homeor just had professional
encounters with Mark Baker, as Idid, over the years, you will
(30:39):
know him well or as well as youcan ever really know someone.
I guess everyone felt as ifthey kind of knew Mark Baker
because he brought a sort of anintimacy to everything he did
professionally personally he wasa very open, very warm person
and you felt in some ways as ifyou knew him.
His life and his career wasreally without peer in the
(31:04):
Melbourne Jewish community.
He made so many contributionsto the community, to cultural
life, to religious life andobviously to academia.
Can you give us some idea ofwho he was?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, I mean that was a beautiful description and I
think his signature grin that healways had on his face I mean
from the minute he woke up inthe morning, he he always had
that grin, even through his 13months of you excruciating
illness.
Whenever he saw family orpeople he loved or connected to,
(31:42):
he had that grin which I thinkgave him that openness and
allowed people to feel like theyknew him and connected to him.
On a personal level, on a moreprofessional level, mark was as
he mentioned.
He was a historian, a writer, ateacher, a community leader.
He was in many waysgroundbreaking.
(32:04):
Sometimes he was referred to asa rule breaker rather than a
rule maker.
His literary achievements kindof reflect the fact that Mark
was a writer at heart.
At only 37 years old he wrote afamily memoir which was one of
the first of its kind of secondgeneration Holocaust narrative.
(32:25):
That was the 50th Gate, whichwas very much ahead of its time.
It received high praise byHolocaust scholars such as
Christopher Browning, who saidthat it's the gold standard of
second generation Holocaustmemoirs.
It won the New South WalesPremier's Award.
It was studied by thousands ofuniversity and school students
(32:50):
and, as well as the 50th Gate.
He wrote 30 Days and he wrote ASeason of Death, and they were
also memoirs, also deeplypersonal, also grappling with
memory and with grief in theirdistinct ways, and those three
books formed what he saw as atrilogy 30 Days is about his
(33:11):
marriage to Karen, her diagnosiswith terminal cancer and her
death, and A Season of death isabout Mark's own diagnosis with
cancer and his dying.
And as well as his writing, ashe mentioned, he had academic
achievements.
He was the inaugural Jewishstudies lecturer at Melbourne
(33:33):
University and his lecturesquickly became legendary there.
When he moved over to MonashUniversity, he was director of
the Australian Centre for JewishCivilisation for 10 years and
under his direction the centreexpanded.
It became this world-class hubfor Jewish studies and it was
this venue where internationallydistinguished speakers could
(33:56):
come and give these publiclectures, which were very
important in the life of theJewish community and beyond.
And Mark's calling to be ateacher was really central to
his engagement with the world.
He opened young minds.
He encouraged them to think bigand hard, to be alive to the
(34:19):
world, by reflecting on theatrocities of the past while
being hopeful about the future.
And I've recently.
I'm in the process of moving,so I was temporarily packing up
a lot of the books at home toput in storage.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
He had an enormous book collection as well.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
He did, yes, and this is just his Jewish book
collection.
It's just an immense scholarlylibrary, and what I was so
overwhelmed with was just thebreadth and depth of how much
one mind can absorb in a lifeand how much he had to offer the
(35:01):
world.
Yeah, it's quite remarkable.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Mm-hmm Avid is a word that comes to mind when I think
about him.
He just seemed to have aninsatiable appetite for an
interest and ability that wasrare, striking.
I've been actually wanting tointerview you for quite a while,
michelle, but part of theprompt was realising that it was
the outside of Mark a couple ofweeks ago.
(35:27):
So it's been just over twoyears since he died and in that
time we've had two booksreleased A Season of Death,
which was posthumously releasedlast year, and we'll talk about
that in a moment and anexhibition at the Jewish Museum
and a book that accompanies itas well.
So it really does feel, on theone hand, as if, amazingly, he
(35:50):
is still with us and reading aseason of death.
He's just so present, he's soalive, reading the book, and yet
on the other hand, as you saidbefore, we feel his absence
because we know that he wouldhave had so much to say about
what is going on in Israel andthat his voice is so absent from
conversations in Australia butalso online, where I know he was
(36:12):
a very avid contributor to inhis latter years.
What does it feel like for you,that feeling of his presence
but also, clearly, his absence?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, I mean.
It's obviously extremelypainful.
The grief is still raw.
I have our daughter who isthree and a half.
Malila is three and a half.
She misses her dada every day.
He's a strong presence in herlife.
Marking the second Yoritzite was.
We marked it at shirah hadashah, the orthodox egalitarian shul
(36:58):
that mark was one of thefounders of, with the, a
beautiful community that he.
His presence is still very muchthere and you can, you can feel
that, which for me is a bigcomfort.
So Mark's now been gone longerthan the time that he had with
Malila and Malila had with him.
(37:20):
She was 20 months old when hedied, so that's obviously a big
part of the grief.
Working on Mark's books since hedied, which is what he asked me
to do, has been a cathartic andimportant process of the grief
(37:43):
for me.
I've spoken before when talkingabout a season of death in the
year I spent editing it with RayGator, my stepfather, that it
was at times addictive because Ifelt like I had Mark's voice
with me, even though I know howthe story ends and I'm living it
(38:05):
every day.
Just working with his words andhearing his voice was consoling
and comforting.
And then, in a different way,making the photography book In
Love With the World that Iedited together with Esther
Justin, miriam Cowpey and CarloOcchioni, was another dimension
(38:28):
and medium of Mark's work, andin all of his work there's his
ability to capture the beautyand the brokenness.
So because Mark had such amassive output in his life and
in his plans for the future,which unfortunately he himself
wasn't able to carry out, thatis a big part of my life.
(38:51):
There is still a novel that isgoing to be published soon that
he was working on.
So his work that he did whilehe was alive is presence in my
life and his absence I feeldaily, obviously in my life and
in Malila's.
So there is this juxtapositionthat's there always.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
A Season of Death is, as you've mentioned, about his
diagnosis of pancreatic cancerand his eventual death.
If you're listening to this andyou haven't read it, you must
read it, because it isdevastating, it is compelling,
it is just brilliant, and it'sno surprise that it was a
(39:36):
finalist in the Age Book of theYear prize for this year.
What did this last projectrepresent for Mark?
Why did he throw himself intoit and why did he want you and
Ray to finish it for him?
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Well, I think in first instance he wrote this
book for Malila so that whenshe's old enough, she'll be able
to read it and, through it,understand her father and his
love for her.
So his primary reason and focuswas for Melilla, but it was
also a gift for me and for allof us.
(40:16):
In the book he wrote, I'moverwhelmed by how much I love
this world.
That is what inspired the titlethat we gave the Photography
Book In Love With the World andin A Season Of Death.
(40:38):
Mark details, in all itspersonal details of our life,
this kind of what I experiencedwith Mark, which was his love of
life, his sense of howwonderful the world is and his
determination to start a newlife after karen died, in our
marriage and in our miraclechild, malila, who was born
(40:58):
after 22 rounds of ivf.
And mark was unreservedly opento life.
And even though, as the titleof the book suggests, a Season
of Death, this is a book thatcarries in a lot of sorrow and
pain.
Mark saw his death in thecontext of the death of three
(41:22):
other members of his family inthe previous seven years Keren's
death, his brother, johnny'sdeath, and his father Yossel's
death.
Years Keren's death, hisbrother Johnny's death and his
father Yossel's death, but hemanages to couple that sorrow
and his confronting of deathwith a lot of love and a lot of
laughter.
During that year of editing Isent one of the versions of the
(41:43):
manuscript to Ray and he said tome do you realize what you
titled this document?
And I said no, and he said youcalled it A Season of Love,
which was my subconscious reallytelling me how much love I felt
is in the book and feel fromMark.
And it's just also astonishingto me is the incredible
(42:05):
discipline that he had toproduce a book that, as you said
, was shortlisted as the agebook of the year.
Under the conditions that hedid that he could write a book
of that kind of quality in theexcruciating pain he was in the
chemotherapy, the pain he feltfor us, his family, his three
(42:29):
adult children, his babydaughter, his now 90-year-old
mother and me and his friendsand family.
So for me it's a gift, thisbook for his family and for his
readers.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
One of the book's core themes, it seems to me, is
the human condition and itsephemerality and the cyclical
nature of how we live and,ultimately, how we die as well,
and this is no betterrepresented in the passage from
Ecclesiastes which is includedat the start of the book.
(43:06):
There is a time for everythingand a season for every activity
under the heavens, and it alsocaught my imagination when I was
thinking about Mark and hislove of Joni Mitchell and the
song the Circle Game, which isalso alluded to in the final
chapter.
We're captive on the carouselof time.
(43:27):
We can't return, we can onlylook behind from where we came.
Can you talk about Mark'spreoccupation, if you like, with
time, because I think it alsogoes back to the first book, the
50th Gate, that he wrote?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, I think in the case of a season of death, it's
connected to what's at the coreof the book, which is about
living authentically the life ofa mortal being and being
truthful about your mortalityand how you live.
And there's a story that Markdiscusses in the book, which is
(44:15):
about Reb Zusha, who told hisdisciples as he was dying that
he wasn't concerned that when hedied, god would ask him have
you been like Moses, for example?
What Reb Zusha was reallyfrightened about was that God
would ask him why weren't youlike Reb Zusha?
And this is a story thataffected Mark and he returns to
(44:37):
it three times in a season ofdeath and he asks himself have I
been Mark Baker?
And this relates to his anxietyabout memory and it being
non-linear.
As he saw it.
He writes in the book I canbarely construct a narrative of
my life, and I think this ideathat that you've referred to
(44:58):
it's a poetic image that isexpressed in all his writings.
It's a haunting illusion thatresonates in in all his work.
In the 50th Gate begins and itends with the same line.
It's always there, but it'salso, I think, how he felt that
(45:19):
he lived his life and hisopenness to life.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
This is new to me.
I did not know that Mark notonly had an interest in
photography, but that he wasalso, apparently, a very skilled
photographer, skilled enough tohave a beautiful book released
In Love With the World.
A collection of his photos,which I understand, appear in
the exhibition.
Tell us about this interestthat Mark had in photography and
(45:47):
how the exhibition and the bookcame about.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Well, as you said, mark's photography, which is
until now largely unknown to thepublic, introduces this new
dimension to his life's work.
And what has been reallytouching, through the exhibition
and through the book, is justhow many people have been
astonished by his talent.
People have been astonished byhis talent.
(46:15):
Mark had this ability topenetrate through the visible
and the invisible barriers ofthe world and it allowed him, I
think, as I mentioned before, todocument its beauty and its
brokenness.
And he often did hisphotography while he was
traveling, solo or in a group,and it was a way to discover
people, to connect with them andthe landscape around him.
He also photographed locally inSt Kilda, the suburb he lived
(46:39):
in, and Holocaust survivors,which again relates to a central
theme of memory and trauma inhis life's work, and it was
actually a photographer and afriend, carlo Oggioni, work.
And it was actually aphotographer and a friend, carlo
Oggioni, who suggested the ideaof this exhibition and book to
honour Mark.
He initiated the twin projectsand it would never have happened
without him, and we thoughtthat the Jewish Museum of
(47:03):
Australia, the GandalfCollection, judaica Collection,
would be the perfect home for it.
So that exhibition is currentlyat the Jewish Museum and will
be until the beginning of July.
So the title of the exhibitionat the Jewish Museum is the
(47:24):
things you cannot see.
And we decided on this titlebased on what Mark referred to
as one of the themes in thesites that he took students to,
on the intensive units hecreated at Monash University,
where he took students to SouthAfrica and Rwanda, eastern
Europe and Israel, palestine,and it was as much about what
(47:49):
they saw before them as whatonce stood and is no longer.
And this had to do with Mark'sunderstanding of witnessing, the
idea of it's what you seebefore you, what you cannot see,
and a mixture of the seen andthe unseen.
And he captured this insight,which really revolutionized his
teaching, through the lens of acamera.
(48:10):
And the book which, as Imentioned, we titled In Love
With the World, really pairsMark's images with his writings.
So we have taken quotes out ofMark's different books and we've
put them against images, andthese images are from all over
(48:33):
the world Williamsburg, athens,havana, cambodia, moscow,
melbourne and it's been reallybeautiful to see, to bring into
the world this other kind ofmedium that Mark has expressed
his ideas and themes in and seethe links between them.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Michelle, you have been on quite the journey, not
just the last two years, butfrom the day that you and Mark
first became lovers and theneventually married and then had
a child, and it, just as thebook beautifully captures it has
been just an extraordinaryperiod of your life, but filled
(49:15):
with unfathomable sadness andgrief to make your life's work.
In terms of the protection ofits democratic institutions, its
legal system has beenunravelling and has been
(49:35):
suffering a form of death aswell.
In these moments, in thesetimes, what has been a salvation
for you?
Where have you drawn hope?
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Well, when I think about what's happening in Israel
, particularly in the worldgenerally, in my personal life,
but if we take and look atIsrael specifically, I feel like
there are two ways ofproceeding.
One is to say, look, this iswhat Israel's done and what its
citizens have supported, andthere's no way back for years,
(50:11):
for generations.
It's going to take generationsto recover from this.
And the other way to look at itis to say that we can commit
ourselves to seeing what can bedone and help whatever forces
there are that exist to createchange and an attempt to kind of
(50:36):
speak truth in the country.
I don't think that seriouschange will happen unless there
is that serious attempt fromwithin Israel to face up to what
has happened, to what it hasdone, and any hope that is
remotely realistic has to facethat fact.
(50:56):
What I keep returning to isthat there are organisations and
there are people inside andoutside Israel that are trying
to do this, and you know, I'veread about them, I have met them
.
I have had difficult andinspiring conversations with
(51:17):
leaders of Israeli human rightsorganizations, with
organizations in the diaspora,with, you know, members of A
Land for All, omar Dajani,gideon Bromberg.
You know Noah Sattath from ACRI, rachel Goldberg, conversations
with her, the mother of HirschGoldberg.
All of them are doing what theycan, based on their own
(51:41):
convictions and visions, not toturn their back, to keep going.
And when I think about Mark,mark would never turn his back
on Israel.
He would never say, oh, thiswas just an illusion and that's
it.
He would keep going, inwhatever form that is.
(52:01):
You know, he was actually quitesceptical of a two-state
solution and I think that one ofthe things he would insist on
was that if there is talkamongst governments of the world
that a two-state solution isthe only way forward, that we
need to take a hard and soberlook of seeing how that's
possible.
Otherwise, it's just kind ofpushing the whole issue away and
(52:25):
it's about trying to respondand be part of the future in a
way that's truthful, oftenpainful, and creating change bit
by bit, step by step, ratherthan turning our backs.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Michelle, thank you for the work that you and Ray
did to bring Season of Death toreaders and for the other work
that you do to keep Mark'smemory available.
So thank you for that and forthe time that you've given us
today and going over this recentperiod of your life.
(53:08):
I don't expect this has beeneasy, but I feel really grateful
that you're willing to talk tous today.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Thank you.
That was a sensitive and openand thoughtful conversation that
I feel was very much in thespirit of honouring Mark and
thanks.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
That was Michelle Lesch, and a reminder that you
can see her at Sydney Writers'Festival in Sydney this Thursday
22 May.
We'll leave ticket informationin our show notes.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Mark's memoir A Season of Death is available
wherever good books are sold,and his photography exhibition
at the Jewish Museum will be onuntil July, and you can also
pick up a copy of theaccompanying photography book
that Michelle mentioned in theconversation.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
If you're listening to this while you're driving,
pull over now and book yourtickets to see me and Dash live.
Do you live in another state?
It might be prudent to bookflights as well, then.
Okay, enough plugs.
That's it for this week.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me Tammy
(54:24):
Sussman.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (54:27):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than Shabbat leftovers
.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Thank you.
Are you interested in Jewish cultural and creative
events, especially those takingplace in Sydney and Melbourne
over the next few months?
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in today's episode I'll betalking with an Australian
Jewish lawyer, legal scholar,academic and editor whose work
was recently announced as afinalist in the Age Book of the
Year Award.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Who knows if she'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of the JewishIndependent podcast and we seem
to be dropping our shame alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yes, some of us more so than others.
Tammy.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Hello, I'm Dash Lawrence,executive Director here at the
Jewish Independent, and backfrom the 2025 London Marathon in
(01:11):
a time of three hours and 27minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
He has to mention the marathon.
I'm Tammy, I wear bike shortsnow, apparently, sussman Dash,
you thought you were the onlyone who liked to get out their
thighs.
As of last month, I do too.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Pray tell, I did not expect you to be ever wearing
bike shorts.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
You're quite right, because you're in Melbourne and
I'm in Sydney and usually we seeeach other over our podcasting
software, which is just torso up, it's torso face.
You never get to see me torsodown, which is a relief because
quite often I'm not wearingpants.
I knew it, but those close to mein Sydney know that I am not a
(02:01):
shorts wearer because I've had alifelong fear of bike shorts an
irrational fear, if you likeand I discovered that a few
weeks ago when a friend cameover to help me set up my Hinge
dating app profile.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
About time Tammy.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
I don't know if you know much about Hinge, but Hinge
is different to the other appswhere it's just like pictures.
Hinge is like the the otherapps where it's just like
pictures.
Hinge is like the smartperson's dating app.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Tell me more.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Tammy.
Okay, so you put your photosthere.
I think you get to choose six.
You can put videos and theyalso give you funny prompts that
you have to answer.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
You'd ace this game.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, one of the prompts what's your irrational
fear?
And I told my friend that myrational fear is bike shorts.
I don't really like to show mylegs and she said we'll work on
that, but the one that I endedup going with so that I could do
code my profile.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I said, my irrational fear is that you'll throw out
perfectly good leftovers.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Subtle.
I like it Sending a bat signalto any Jewish users on Hinge.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Or allies.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes, or allies Yep.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
You know, I am all about subtle.
So if there's one thing peoplesay when they hear my name
subtle.
So if there's one thing peoplesay when they hear my name, it's
oh, tammy Sussman.
Yeah, she's subtle.
No, I did write that I wasJewish on my profile too, just
to sift out the far left and farright.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
How has your venture into the world of online dating
and hinge gone, Tammy?
Speaker 1 (03:41):
You want me to spill the tea, don't you I?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
do.
How's it gone with the profilethat you did have up there?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
With the venture into online dating.
I know you want to know allabout it.
And I know our listeners do too, because they're a smart bunch,
they're an empathetic bunch andthey're also a nosy bunch.
Okay, so you know what?
How about I spill a bit of teaat our live session at Limwood
(04:10):
Oz, melbourne, over the Junelong weekend?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Absolutely yes.
For those of you who live inMelbourne, we would love to see
you.
On Sunday, the 8th of June,tammy and I will be hosting our
very first live recording of AShame to Admit, 4 o'clock,
linwood Oz.
Jump online, check out all thedetails and see the rest of the
(04:36):
fabulous program that theLinwood Committee have worked up
this year, sponsored by noneother than Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
So so let's circle back to your thighs, your legs,
Dash.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Okay, right.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
What did you wear when you were running in London
Marathon?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I had a last minute turn towards half tights running
half tights.
I hadn't been a tight runnerthroughout my running career,
but just in the last few monthsI've really enjoyed the
aerodynamics of a good pair ofrunning tights.
So I changed my attire withjust a few weeks out from the
(05:15):
marathon I said you know what?
I think I'm going to run LondonMarathon in a pair of running
half tights because they aresuper comfortable.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Look at us.
When we started this podcast, Iwas heavily into passive wear
didn't own a single item ofactive wear and you were heavily
deeply into shorts, and nowyou've transitioned into half
tights.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yep, that's me.
Just so much growth anddevelopment I've bought two
pairs since the marathon, infact color black and navy blue.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
I may be wearing a pack, I may be wearing a pair
right now, but you can't see it,so you'll never know I love how
you were just so proud of likeblack and you're like no, no, no
, not just black, I've also gotnavy blue.
This is not a visual medium, sowhat I'm thinking is that the
(06:10):
Jewish independent socials needto get a photo of you in your
half tights.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I don't think that's necessary.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I just think there's not enough thigh chat in this
podcast in general.
I think that should be arecurring topic of conversation.
There's also not enough beef.
There's not enough conflict ortension.
You were the one who said fromthe very beginning that the
podcast duos who get the mostengagement are the ones who
fight.
And you're in Melbourne, I'm inSydney, don't you think we
(06:45):
could like play more with thatrivalry?
We could do more with it.
I know what Melburnians sayabout Sydneysiders.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You're all lacking in culture, lacking in.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
That's exactly what you think you do, don't you?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Of course.
That's why we choose to live inMelbourne and not in Sydney.
You can have all your beaches.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
You choose to live in Melbourne because not in Sydney
you can have all your beaches.
You choose to live in Melbournebecause of the prices.
You can't afford to live inSydney.
That's the truth.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
That's true, yep.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Got anything mean to say about Sydney Dash?
Come on, hit me Sydney Jews.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Honestly, I don't think you could handle it.
Okay, have a try.
It could be deleterious for ourrelationship.
There could be ramificationsthat I don't know I want to live
with.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Deleterious.
Now you're just trying topatronize me with your extensive
vocabulary.
That's what's happening now.
You've got nothing bad to sayabout Sydney, but you're like
I'll just make her feelinadequate.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Would you prefer that we talked about house prices or
real estate?
Is that a safer conversationwhen talking to someone from
Sydney?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I don't want the safe conversations here, Dash.
Can you see what I'm trying todo?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I'm trying to create an unsafe space.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah, I am Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I've missed you too, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
When I come to Melbourne for Limwood, I am
going to exclusively wear activewear just to piss off all the
Melbourne Jews.
I'm going to offend them, I'mgoing to show up to every formal
event in like my Pilates wearand I'm going to speak with a
Sydney, south African twingeaccent.
Okay, just to trigger everyone.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Looking forward to it .
Tammy, we've got a show to geton with.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Tammy, we've got a show to get on with Melburnians.
I love you.
Your coffee's great and you'recultured and that's hot.
So while the Sydney Jews arespending their time at Pilates
on the weekend, you guys are outthere at the galleries.
You're seeing art, You'reseeing photography.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What exhibition are you hoping to see this month?
Dash Well, tammy.
The Jewish Museum is currentlyexhibiting an exhibition that I
did not anticipate.
This is quite a lovely surprise.
The Jewish Museum has recentlyopened a collection of original
photographs by the late MarkBaker.
(09:07):
The exhibition is called theThings you Cannot See
Photography of Mark RaphaelBaker and, for those of you who
don't know Mark or don't havesome understanding of who he was
, mark died in 2023.
Who he was Mark died in 2023.
(09:31):
He was a renowned historian,teacher, writer, and is
celebrated here in Australia andinternationally for his
lifelong commitment to bearingwitness and exploring humanity.
His exhibition of photographyhis first ever, in fact,
showcases a vital extension ofthis lifelong commitment to
bearing witness.
The exhibition contains Mark'sphotographs spanning countries,
(09:54):
cultures, decades, and offers anintimate glimpse into everyday
life, emotions and relationships.
The Things you Cannot Seeexplores both the seen and the
unseen and invites a deeperunderstanding of the shared
human experience.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Mark Baker's memoir Dash A Season of Death, as you
know, was published in 2024.
It was edited by his wife,michelle Lesh, and her
stepfather, raymond Gator.
Now Michelle will be appearingat this year's Sydney Writers
Festival Dash, a cultural eventin Sydney.
Better believe it.
Michelle's event is thisThursday, the 22nd of May, at
(10:35):
11am.
She'll be in conversation withthe delightful Michaela Kolowski
.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Michelle Lesh is an international lawyer, has taught
at the Melbourne Law School andthe London School of Economics
and worked at the United Nations, and is a member of the
International Bar AssociationWar Crimes Committee.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
She has written for a variety of academic and
non-academic publications.
Loveliest person and she's ourspecial guest, but in particular
your special guest, dash,because you interviewed her for
today's a shame to admitinterview.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
So, Michelle, I'd like to learn a little bit about
your entry into the law.
How is it that a young womanfrom Melbourne ends up interning
for one of the most famous,most important jurists in
Israel's history, Aaron Barak,and ultimately ends up working
for one of its most importanthuman rights organisations?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Well, I really got interested in this during my law
degree at Monash University andI'd always had a deep personal
and family connection to Israel.
My mother is nine generationsIsraeli.
One side of her family is 22generations Israeli.
They've been there since theSpanish Inquisition and my
(12:12):
grandfather was a Holocaustsurvivor and he fought in 1948
and he always taught me aboutthe land, his love of it and his
awareness that there were otherpeople there, that the land was
shared with the Palestinians,and he instilled that in me and
while I was studying law.
(12:33):
It was during the secondintifada, so quite a long time
ago, and there were seriousquestions about how to fight
what was called asymmetricalwars.
Now that question has been ininternational for a long time.
It didn't start with Israel butbecause of that connection and
interest I had in Israel, I waswondering how the law could
(12:56):
respond adequately to themorally and politically complex
realities and circumstances ofthat complex.
And I was troubled by theincreasing civilian suffering
and I continue to be about inrelation to that conflict and
global conflicts around theworld.
So I went during myundergraduate years and I did a
(13:17):
internship at an Israeli humanrights organisation called Bet
Selem and at the time theorganisation was really thinking
and questioning the adequacy ofinternational law and how you
deal with asymmetrical warfareand protect civilians on the one
hand and also deal withquestions of who is a civilian,
(13:39):
who are considered fighters whenyou're dealing with a
non-traditional army.
And then I went back to Israela couple of years later and I
worked at the Supreme Court withChief Justice Aron Barak and it
was a real honour to work withBarak because at the time it was
a really serious question aboutwhether the law was adequate to
(14:01):
the realities of the ground.
Because, as I said, it raisedthese questions about how the
category of civilian works inthe law and whether there
actually was this equivalencebetween, for example, a mother
and a daughter walking down thestreet on the footpath and the
commander of Hamas, whoorganized the suicide bombing
(14:23):
but may also be deemed acivilian under the law because
they're not wearing a uniform orcarrying arms openly.
So at that time, the question ofcivilian raised all these
questions about whether innocentbystanders on the street were
considered the same as acommander, and that's what
(14:44):
interested me and I continuedthat work in my PhD.
And then, when we think abouthow the law has evolved and
circumstances has evolved in thetime of targeted killings, at
that time, during Barak'sjudgment in 2006, you could
(15:06):
honestly say that, howeverterrible that expression is,
that the mother and the childcould have been deemed what we
call collateral damage becauseit wasn't intentional and that
it was seriously regretted.
But when we look now at what'sgoing on in Gaza, there doesn't
(15:27):
seem to be any comparisonbecause the situation is so
inflated.
We see that there are one ton,100 ton bombs being dropped on a
Hamas commander.
That's killing 100 people, notone or two people, and we keep
(15:48):
hearing things that it'sregrettable.
Yet it's a kind of legitimateaction and it's hard to say this
is anything but cynical,because with it is Israel's
continued existence during thiswar that it's following
international law, even thoughwe're all watching day-by-day
images of what is happeningthere and can see that there's
(16:12):
this complete contempt ofinternational law.
So what I find interesting andreally important is that the
target of killing judgmenthowever important it was at the
time, is not really relevant tothis war in Gaza, because it's
such a radically different war.
(16:32):
It's on a different plane, it'sof a different scale and it's
of a different kind.
You know, know, at the time ofthe targeted killing case,
people were really concernedabout what it meant to be a
civilian and I feel like thisconflict is different for Israel
from all its previous wars,even from the 1948 war, from
what the Nakba was for thePalestinians, because of the way
(16:56):
the war has completely mockedinternational law.
And you know, when we talkabout things like
proportionality, when we see thedestruction now it kind of
feels like a bit of an obscenityand that proportionality isn't
relevant, which is a, you know,really important concept of the
(17:17):
law, because what we see beforeus is the complete destruction
of Gaza.
We're talking about things likehumanitarian access being denied
and starvation, and I don'tthink anybody at the time that
the targeted killing judgmentwas written would ever have
believed that it would come tothis.
(17:39):
Whatever have believed that itwould come to this.
So I feel like there's a bigdifference between where we were
then and what's going on now inGaza.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
You cite the example of Gaza, but what about the
example of the attacks inLebanon directed at Hezbollah's
leadership?
Those attacks were seen by many, including people that would
often be very critical of Israel, as commendable, that is, that
(18:16):
they removed the threat thatIsrael faced from Hezbollah,
crippled that threat and forsome it was an act to be
applauded because it achievedthe intention of removing the
Hezbollah leadership.
How did you look on it?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
The targeted killings in Lebanon.
What happened in Lebanon, thetargeted killings in Lebanon,
what happened in Lebanon, aredifferent in kind from what's
happening in Gaza for differentreasons.
One of them is legally it'sdifferent, and you know I'll
talk about that a bit.
But I think something that'simportant to remember is that,
(18:57):
even though something might beconsidered successful or
politically legitimate, that isoften irrelevant when we talk
about the law.
And international law is quitecomplex and on the one hand, you
know it might seem pedantry totalk about distinctions, about
what type of conflict isoccurring, but it's actually
(19:21):
important when you go into it,and I won't go into the details
and the nitty-gritty of the lawnow, but how you classify a
situation legally has importantimplications about whether it is
permissible under the law, andI'll give one example is Gaza
know, how that conflict isclassified, whether it's
(19:42):
international ornon-international, has
implications.
It makes it controversial aboutwhether you say Israel acts in
self-defense in going into Gaza,which, when you think about it
politically or from a non-legalperspective, that seems strange.
And with Lebanon, similarissues arise because of the fact
(20:02):
that you're doing across-border attack into another
country.
It raises issues whether therewas a just cause to carry out
those attacks, whether itcreated, whether there was
existing in a type ofinternationalized armed conflict
and basically the use of forceis dependent on what legal rules
(20:24):
apply.
So when you breach thesovereign territory of another
country, that then raises awhole lot of legal issues.
And another example that I justwant to give, because I think
it's important to understand whylegal rules and the legal
regimes are important, is Gaza.
(20:49):
When I worked at the commissionof inquiry at the UN on the
protests along the Gaza fence in2018 and 2019, which I
ultimately resigned from thatcommission of inquiry, which
wasn't an easy thing to do, andin the end I resigned, not
because I necessarily disagreedwith the conclusions of the
(21:11):
commission about Israel'sconducts and its potential
violations of international law,but because of the way they got
to those conclusions and theintegrity of international law.
It was assumed, without muchargument at the Commissioner of
Inquiry, that the relevant lawthat would apply to assessing
(21:34):
the conduct at the protest washuman rights law.
It was a law enforcementsituation and it had the kind of
absurd consequence that if10,000 people were to break
through the fence the onlyresponse available would be
arresting those people.
(21:56):
And that's the consequence ofassuming that the protest was a
civil disobedience, a kind of acivil protest rather than arms
resistance.
But there was at the time clearconcern and good reason to
believe at the time, but thecommission chose not to
investigate it, even though itwas later confirmed that Hamas
(22:18):
were there and ready toencourage and exploit surges of
the French to break down thefence in which thousands of
people could have gone intoIsrael, and no one believes that
they would have walked inpeacefully into the neighbouring
kibbutzim with placards sayingpeace now.
So, we see the way differentlegal regimes affect how you
(22:43):
carry out.
You know the response and thenthe legality of that response
and you know it sounds technical, but it actually has
implications in how we viewsituations and those legal
implications then have politicalimplications too.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So, like Lebanon and Gaza are just two examples of
how complex international lawcan be, and it's important that
we, you know, understand it andit's applied rigorously and
accurately let's um zoom out fora moment, because we're talking
about laws, both international,but also Israel's laws, and the
(23:27):
legal system in Israel thatoffers some form of a bulwark
against the misuse and the abuseof power and also has
ultimately served Israel verywell since its establishment.
In the last few years, thatlegal system, the institutions
(23:48):
of democracy have come underenormous attack and you are
someone that has dedicated yourworking life to contributing to
those democratic institutions,your working life to
contributing to those democraticinstitutions.
What has it been like for you,michelle, sitting here in
Melbourne looking at afar onwhat has been happening within
Israel with regard to theattacks on the democratic
(24:11):
institutions?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, I mean it's devastating.
A lot of us for the last 18months have been carrying a lot
of pain for different reasons,but also there is a commonality.
Often, I think the concernsabout Israel's democratic
institutions, as you kind ofalluded to, existed long before
(24:32):
Gaza.
But what Gaza?
What the war in Gaza has doneis it's undermined those
institutions even more so thegovernment you could hardly call
it a functioning governmentSince October 7, it's refused to
establish a commission ofinquiry to investigate why
(24:52):
October 7 was able to occur.
Who bears responsibility?
Who bears responsibility?
Events after October 7, the warin Gaza and allegations of
violations that are occurringthere.
And one of the things I workedon when I was in Israel was I
was a legal advisor for theTurkle Commission, which was a
(25:13):
commission of inquiry that wasset up to try and revamp
Israel's military justice systemand put in place different
safeguards and mechanisms toensure that when there were
allegations of violations ofinternational law, they were
investigated in a way that wasindependent and impartial and in
(25:35):
keeping and in line withinternational law.
And it's an over 1,000-pagereport that kind of did
comparative studies of sixdifferent military justice
systems around the world.
It interviewed military legaladvisors, political legal
advisors, ngos, internationallawyers.
It had members on thecommission who were experts
(25:58):
internationally from outsideIsrael, a former Supreme Court
judge at the head of it and itwas considered a serious and
rigorous report that thegovernment at the time accepted
and in fact implemented changeswithin the military justice
system to ensure those stepswere taken.
(26:19):
And when you think about thefact that since the war in Gaza
following October 7th, therehaven't been serious
investigations into violationsof international law, when we
see the most flagrant violationsof international law happening
(26:41):
every day in Gaza and theterribleness of that it's just
it's hard to express howdevastating it is because Israel
, under the Netanyahu government, has shown complete contempt
for international law, contemptfor international law.
(27:03):
And you know we're seeing nowthat there's within Israeli
society there's a refusal toserve.
That's both open dissent andwhat they're calling quiet
refusal, which is not showing up, just not turning up for duty.
I read today that soldiers arearguing that it actually serves
their country better or at leasttheir families better if they
don't serve.
And I know that quiet refusaldoesn't, and in most cases
(27:25):
doesn't, actually have to dowith the justice or the legality
of the war, but it's to do withthe kind of degree of the
complete lack of sensitivity bysome military commanders and
politicians in regard to thisenormous sacrifice they're
asking of ordinary citizens,what we call citizen soldiers.
(27:48):
Amos Harrell, the militarycorrespondent for Haaretz, has
been warning against thedemoralization of the IDF for
over a year now, and nobodybelieves Israel could get enough
soldiers into Gaza now to dowhat Netanyahu wants to do.
And I just see this as anotherexample of contempt that the
(28:10):
Netanyahu government has forordinary soldiers that they've
so exhausted and, in some cases,demoralized them.
And it's a case of thisgovernment showing the same kind
of disdain for its citizens asit's shown in its actions
against the Supreme Court, itssavage attacks against the IDF,
(28:30):
the Shin Bet, the AttorneyGeneral, undermining the
government's respects forinstitutions that are
fundamental to democracy andwhat a lot of Israelis are now
seeing as an unwinnable, foreverwar.
And I know I get asked all thetime about Mark in relation to
(28:52):
this Mark's voice, the absenceof his voice.
People have a craving, alonging to know what he might
say, and obviously I can't speakfor Mark.
I can't say what I think hewould say.
I know he'd be horrified anddevastated about what's going on
(29:14):
.
Generally, we did share similaropinions on Israel.
Obviously there were somedifferences too.
One of his wishes for me was toinstil in our daughter, malila,
a love for Israel and a fiercecriticism of it.
(29:35):
Mark, you know, deeply lovedIsrael and was criticised at two
, which made him this figure inthe community, which was often
considered a controversial voice, but it always came from a
place of love.
I think he'd be, you know,obviously deeply concerned about
anti-Semitism, but I don'tthink his concerns about
(29:59):
anti-Semitism would be inconflict with criticism he may
have of Israel, severe criticismpossibly.
I think he would have felt thathe could do both and he
wouldn't have to choose.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
But yeah, you know, I also would love to know what
Mark would be thinking now andhave his guidance, like many of
us, For those of us who eithergrew up in or called the
Melbourne Jewish community homeor just had professional
encounters with Mark Baker, as Idid, over the years, you will
(30:39):
know him well or as well as youcan ever really know someone.
I guess everyone felt as ifthey kind of knew Mark Baker
because he brought a sort of anintimacy to everything he did
professionally personally he wasa very open, very warm person
and you felt in some ways as ifyou knew him.
His life and his career wasreally without peer in the
(31:04):
Melbourne Jewish community.
He made so many contributionsto the community, to cultural
life, to religious life andobviously to academia.
Can you give us some idea ofwho he was?
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Yeah, I mean that was a beautiful description and I
think his signature grin that healways had on his face I mean
from the minute he woke up inthe morning, he he always had
that grin, even through his 13months of you excruciating
illness.
Whenever he saw family orpeople he loved or connected to,
(31:42):
he had that grin which I thinkgave him that openness and
allowed people to feel like theyknew him and connected to him.
On a personal level, on a moreprofessional level, mark was as
he mentioned.
He was a historian, a writer, ateacher, a community leader.
He was in many waysgroundbreaking.
(32:04):
Sometimes he was referred to asa rule breaker rather than a
rule maker.
His literary achievements kindof reflect the fact that Mark
was a writer at heart.
At only 37 years old he wrote afamily memoir which was one of
the first of its kind of secondgeneration Holocaust narrative.
(32:25):
That was the 50th Gate, whichwas very much ahead of its time.
It received high praise byHolocaust scholars such as
Christopher Browning, who saidthat it's the gold standard of
second generation Holocaustmemoirs.
It won the New South WalesPremier's Award.
It was studied by thousands ofuniversity and school students
(32:50):
and, as well as the 50th Gate.
He wrote 30 Days and he wrote ASeason of Death, and they were
also memoirs, also deeplypersonal, also grappling with
memory and with grief in theirdistinct ways, and those three
books formed what he saw as atrilogy 30 Days is about his
(33:11):
marriage to Karen, her diagnosiswith terminal cancer and her
death, and A Season of death isabout Mark's own diagnosis with
cancer and his dying.
And as well as his writing, ashe mentioned, he had academic
achievements.
He was the inaugural Jewishstudies lecturer at Melbourne
(33:33):
University and his lecturesquickly became legendary there.
When he moved over to MonashUniversity, he was director of
the Australian Centre for JewishCivilisation for 10 years and
under his direction the centreexpanded.
It became this world-class hubfor Jewish studies and it was
this venue where internationallydistinguished speakers could
(33:56):
come and give these publiclectures, which were very
important in the life of theJewish community and beyond.
And Mark's calling to be ateacher was really central to
his engagement with the world.
He opened young minds.
He encouraged them to think bigand hard, to be alive to the
(34:19):
world, by reflecting on theatrocities of the past while
being hopeful about the future.
And I've recently.
I'm in the process of moving,so I was temporarily packing up
a lot of the books at home toput in storage.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
He had an enormous book collection as well.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
He did, yes, and this is just his Jewish book
collection.
It's just an immense scholarlylibrary, and what I was so
overwhelmed with was just thebreadth and depth of how much
one mind can absorb in a lifeand how much he had to offer the
(35:01):
world.
Yeah, it's quite remarkable.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Mm-hmm Avid is a word that comes to mind when I think
about him.
He just seemed to have aninsatiable appetite for an
interest and ability that wasrare, striking.
I've been actually wanting tointerview you for quite a while,
michelle, but part of theprompt was realising that it was
the outside of Mark a couple ofweeks ago.
(35:27):
So it's been just over twoyears since he died and in that
time we've had two booksreleased A Season of Death,
which was posthumously releasedlast year, and we'll talk about
that in a moment and anexhibition at the Jewish Museum
and a book that accompanies itas well.
So it really does feel, on theone hand, as if, amazingly, he
(35:50):
is still with us and reading aseason of death.
He's just so present, he's soalive, reading the book, and yet
on the other hand, as you saidbefore, we feel his absence
because we know that he wouldhave had so much to say about
what is going on in Israel andthat his voice is so absent from
conversations in Australia butalso online, where I know he was
(36:12):
a very avid contributor to inhis latter years.
What does it feel like for you,that feeling of his presence
but also, clearly, his absence?
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, I mean.
It's obviously extremelypainful.
The grief is still raw.
I have our daughter who isthree and a half.
Malila is three and a half.
She misses her dada every day.
He's a strong presence in herlife.
Marking the second Yoritzite was.
We marked it at shirah hadashah, the orthodox egalitarian shul
(36:58):
that mark was one of thefounders of, with the, a
beautiful community that he.
His presence is still very muchthere and you can, you can feel
that, which for me is a bigcomfort.
So Mark's now been gone longerthan the time that he had with
Malila and Malila had with him.
(37:20):
She was 20 months old when hedied, so that's obviously a big
part of the grief.
Working on Mark's books since hedied, which is what he asked me
to do, has been a cathartic andimportant process of the grief
(37:43):
for me.
I've spoken before when talkingabout a season of death in the
year I spent editing it with RayGator, my stepfather, that it
was at times addictive because Ifelt like I had Mark's voice
with me, even though I know howthe story ends and I'm living it
(38:05):
every day.
Just working with his words andhearing his voice was consoling
and comforting.
And then, in a different way,making the photography book In
Love With the World that Iedited together with Esther
Justin, miriam Cowpey and CarloOcchioni, was another dimension
(38:28):
and medium of Mark's work, andin all of his work there's his
ability to capture the beautyand the brokenness.
So because Mark had such amassive output in his life and
in his plans for the future,which unfortunately he himself
wasn't able to carry out, thatis a big part of my life.
(38:51):
There is still a novel that isgoing to be published soon that
he was working on.
So his work that he did whilehe was alive is presence in my
life and his absence I feeldaily, obviously in my life and
in Malila's.
So there is this juxtapositionthat's there always.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
A Season of Death is, as you've mentioned, about his
diagnosis of pancreatic cancerand his eventual death.
If you're listening to this andyou haven't read it, you must
read it, because it isdevastating, it is compelling,
it is just brilliant, and it'sno surprise that it was a
(39:36):
finalist in the Age Book of theYear prize for this year.
What did this last projectrepresent for Mark?
Why did he throw himself intoit and why did he want you and
Ray to finish it for him?
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Well, I think in first instance he wrote this
book for Malila so that whenshe's old enough, she'll be able
to read it and, through it,understand her father and his
love for her.
So his primary reason and focuswas for Melilla, but it was
also a gift for me and for allof us.
(40:16):
In the book he wrote, I'moverwhelmed by how much I love
this world.
That is what inspired the titlethat we gave the Photography
Book In Love With the World andin A Season Of Death.
(40:38):
Mark details, in all itspersonal details of our life,
this kind of what I experiencedwith Mark, which was his love of
life, his sense of howwonderful the world is and his
determination to start a newlife after karen died, in our
marriage and in our miraclechild, malila, who was born
(40:58):
after 22 rounds of ivf.
And mark was unreservedly opento life.
And even though, as the titleof the book suggests, a Season
of Death, this is a book thatcarries in a lot of sorrow and
pain.
Mark saw his death in thecontext of the death of three
(41:22):
other members of his family inthe previous seven years Keren's
death, his brother, johnny'sdeath, and his father Yossel's
death.
Years Keren's death, hisbrother Johnny's death and his
father Yossel's death, but hemanages to couple that sorrow
and his confronting of deathwith a lot of love and a lot of
laughter.
During that year of editing Isent one of the versions of the
(41:43):
manuscript to Ray and he said tome do you realize what you
titled this document?
And I said no, and he said youcalled it A Season of Love,
which was my subconscious reallytelling me how much love I felt
is in the book and feel fromMark.
And it's just also astonishingto me is the incredible
(42:05):
discipline that he had toproduce a book that, as you said
, was shortlisted as the agebook of the year.
Under the conditions that hedid that he could write a book
of that kind of quality in theexcruciating pain he was in the
chemotherapy, the pain he feltfor us, his family, his three
(42:29):
adult children, his babydaughter, his now 90-year-old
mother and me and his friendsand family.
So for me it's a gift, thisbook for his family and for his
readers.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
One of the book's core themes, it seems to me, is
the human condition and itsephemerality and the cyclical
nature of how we live and,ultimately, how we die as well,
and this is no betterrepresented in the passage from
Ecclesiastes which is includedat the start of the book.
(43:06):
There is a time for everythingand a season for every activity
under the heavens, and it alsocaught my imagination when I was
thinking about Mark and hislove of Joni Mitchell and the
song the Circle Game, which isalso alluded to in the final
chapter.
We're captive on the carouselof time.
(43:27):
We can't return, we can onlylook behind from where we came.
Can you talk about Mark'spreoccupation, if you like, with
time, because I think it alsogoes back to the first book, the
50th Gate, that he wrote?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, I think in the case of a season of death, it's
connected to what's at the coreof the book, which is about
living authentically the life ofa mortal being and being
truthful about your mortalityand how you live.
And there's a story that Markdiscusses in the book, which is
(44:15):
about Reb Zusha, who told hisdisciples as he was dying that
he wasn't concerned that when hedied, god would ask him have
you been like Moses, for example?
What Reb Zusha was reallyfrightened about was that God
would ask him why weren't youlike Reb Zusha?
And this is a story thataffected Mark and he returns to
(44:37):
it three times in a season ofdeath and he asks himself have I
been Mark Baker?
And this relates to his anxietyabout memory and it being
non-linear.
As he saw it.
He writes in the book I canbarely construct a narrative of
my life, and I think this ideathat that you've referred to
(44:58):
it's a poetic image that isexpressed in all his writings.
It's a haunting illusion thatresonates in in all his work.
In the 50th Gate begins and itends with the same line.
It's always there, but it'salso, I think, how he felt that
(45:19):
he lived his life and hisopenness to life.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
This is new to me.
I did not know that Mark notonly had an interest in
photography, but that he wasalso, apparently, a very skilled
photographer, skilled enough tohave a beautiful book released
In Love With the World.
A collection of his photos,which I understand, appear in
the exhibition.
Tell us about this interestthat Mark had in photography and
(45:47):
how the exhibition and the bookcame about.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Well, as you said, mark's photography, which is
until now largely unknown to thepublic, introduces this new
dimension to his life's work.
And what has been reallytouching, through the exhibition
and through the book, is justhow many people have been
astonished by his talent.
People have been astonished byhis talent.
(46:15):
Mark had this ability topenetrate through the visible
and the invisible barriers ofthe world and it allowed him, I
think, as I mentioned before, todocument its beauty and its
brokenness.
And he often did hisphotography while he was
traveling, solo or in a group,and it was a way to discover
people, to connect with them andthe landscape around him.
He also photographed locally inSt Kilda, the suburb he lived
(46:39):
in, and Holocaust survivors,which again relates to a central
theme of memory and trauma inhis life's work, and it was
actually a photographer and afriend, carlo Oggioni, work.
And it was actually aphotographer and a friend, carlo
Oggioni, who suggested the ideaof this exhibition and book to
honour Mark.
He initiated the twin projectsand it would never have happened
without him, and we thoughtthat the Jewish Museum of
(47:03):
Australia, the GandalfCollection, judaica Collection,
would be the perfect home for it.
So that exhibition is currentlyat the Jewish Museum and will
be until the beginning of July.
So the title of the exhibitionat the Jewish Museum is the
(47:24):
things you cannot see.
And we decided on this titlebased on what Mark referred to
as one of the themes in thesites that he took students to,
on the intensive units hecreated at Monash University,
where he took students to SouthAfrica and Rwanda, eastern
Europe and Israel, palestine,and it was as much about what
(47:49):
they saw before them as whatonce stood and is no longer.
And this had to do with Mark'sunderstanding of witnessing, the
idea of it's what you seebefore you, what you cannot see,
and a mixture of the seen andthe unseen.
And he captured this insight,which really revolutionized his
teaching, through the lens of acamera.
(48:10):
And the book which, as Imentioned, we titled In Love
With the World, really pairsMark's images with his writings.
So we have taken quotes out ofMark's different books and we've
put them against images, andthese images are from all over
(48:33):
the world Williamsburg, athens,havana, cambodia, moscow,
melbourne and it's been reallybeautiful to see, to bring into
the world this other kind ofmedium that Mark has expressed
his ideas and themes in and seethe links between them.
Speaker 2 (48:53):
Michelle, you have been on quite the journey, not
just the last two years, butfrom the day that you and Mark
first became lovers and theneventually married and then had
a child, and it, just as thebook beautifully captures it has
been just an extraordinaryperiod of your life, but filled
(49:15):
with unfathomable sadness andgrief to make your life's work.
In terms of the protection ofits democratic institutions, its
legal system has beenunravelling and has been
(49:35):
suffering a form of death aswell.
In these moments, in thesetimes, what has been a salvation
for you?
Where have you drawn hope?
Speaker 3 (49:47):
Well, when I think about what's happening in Israel
, particularly in the worldgenerally, in my personal life,
but if we take and look atIsrael specifically, I feel like
there are two ways ofproceeding.
One is to say, look, this iswhat Israel's done and what its
citizens have supported, andthere's no way back for years,
(50:11):
for generations.
It's going to take generationsto recover from this.
And the other way to look at itis to say that we can commit
ourselves to seeing what can bedone and help whatever forces
there are that exist to createchange and an attempt to kind of
(50:36):
speak truth in the country.
I don't think that seriouschange will happen unless there
is that serious attempt fromwithin Israel to face up to what
has happened, to what it hasdone, and any hope that is
remotely realistic has to facethat fact.
(50:56):
What I keep returning to isthat there are organisations and
there are people inside andoutside Israel that are trying
to do this, and you know, I'veread about them, I have met them
.
I have had difficult andinspiring conversations with
(51:17):
leaders of Israeli human rightsorganizations, with
organizations in the diaspora,with, you know, members of A
Land for All, omar Dajani,gideon Bromberg.
You know Noah Sattath from ACRI, rachel Goldberg, conversations
with her, the mother of HirschGoldberg.
All of them are doing what theycan, based on their own
(51:41):
convictions and visions, not toturn their back, to keep going.
And when I think about Mark,mark would never turn his back
on Israel.
He would never say, oh, thiswas just an illusion and that's
it.
He would keep going, inwhatever form that is.
(52:01):
You know, he was actually quitesceptical of a two-state
solution and I think that one ofthe things he would insist on
was that if there is talkamongst governments of the world
that a two-state solution isthe only way forward, that we
need to take a hard and soberlook of seeing how that's
possible.
Otherwise, it's just kind ofpushing the whole issue away and
(52:25):
it's about trying to respondand be part of the future in a
way that's truthful, oftenpainful, and creating change bit
by bit, step by step, ratherthan turning our backs.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
Michelle, thank you for the work that you and Ray
did to bring Season of Death toreaders and for the other work
that you do to keep Mark'smemory available.
So thank you for that and forthe time that you've given us
today and going over this recentperiod of your life.
(53:08):
I don't expect this has beeneasy, but I feel really grateful
that you're willing to talk tous today.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Thank you.
That was a sensitive and openand thoughtful conversation that
I feel was very much in thespirit of honouring Mark and
thanks.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
That was Michelle Lesch, and a reminder that you
can see her at Sydney Writers'Festival in Sydney this Thursday
22 May.
We'll leave ticket informationin our show notes.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
Mark's memoir A Season of Death is available
wherever good books are sold,and his photography exhibition
at the Jewish Museum will be onuntil July, and you can also
pick up a copy of theaccompanying photography book
that Michelle mentioned in theconversation.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
If you're listening to this while you're driving,
pull over now and book yourtickets to see me and Dash live.
Do you live in another state?
It might be prudent to bookflights as well, then.
Okay, enough plugs.
That's it for this week.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me Tammy
(54:24):
Sussman.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (54:27):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than Shabbat leftovers
.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Thank you.
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