June 9, 2025 • 50 mins
Does Judaism have a 'shame' problem? In their first-ever live recording of ATA, Tami and Dash joined the annual festival of Jewish ideas and culture at Limmud Oz. In their lively and packed session, Tami posed a question that's been nagging her recently about shame and Judaism. To get some answers, they were joined by Rabbi Allison Conyer of Temple Beth Israel and Rabbi Ralph Genende of Kehilat Kesher, two rabbis with different perspectives.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
We ready, so let's start with the question Are you
interested in issues affectingJews in Australia, the Middle
East and the world at large?
Yes, okay.
Are you interested in issuesaffecting Jews in Australia, the
Middle East and the world atlarge?
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place,
(00:31):
and if you answered no, it's toolate.
We're locking the doors now.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Good afternoon everyone.
I'm Dash Lawrence from theJewish Independent and today
your third cousin, Tammy Sussman, and I will be calling on
experts and each other toaddress some of the ignorant
questions about you guessed itJudaism's relationship with
(00:58):
shame.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast A shame to
admit for the very first timebeing recorded live.
Good afternoon Limwood Oz,melbourne.
(01:31):
It is wonderful to be with younear the end of a very busy, fun
, interesting, rich day.
One of Limwood Oz.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I'm Dash Lawrence, executive Director at the Jewish
Independent, and I am TJI andLimwood Oz, melbourne's Chief
Nudge Officer, tammy Sussman,does everyone here know what a
nudge is?
Someone just said they'reashamed to admit that they don't
know what a nudge is, dash.
Can you enlighten us?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I I'm looking at someone, Tammy, and I'm
thinking of someone inparticular someone who nags,
someone who pesters have I gotit right?
Someone who won't stopbothering you about something?
Okay, Right.
Usually I think of this personas occasionally annoying, but
you know, it's said in anaffectionate manner.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
That's the key word there.
It's affectionate.
I would go so far as to saythat nudges are a little bit
adorable and necessary, and I'ma proud nudge.
I will admit to that.
I nudged hard, I promoted hardfor the event today.
It's what I do I nudge.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You did, tammy.
Yes, you generously offered tostand in front of Yumi's
Seafoods in Riponlee.
From memory I did A few weeksago.
You raised this idea ofstanding in front with a
billboard for $100 an hour.
Yeah, I couldn't approve thatrequest, unfortunately, but it
was a good effort, well done.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Thank you.
I would have done it for 18kilograms of trout mousse.
Just so that you know you couldhave negotiated a bit harder
with that one.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You even tempted our audience members, some of whom
are here today.
Those of you who've beenlistening over the past few
weeks, you'll remember thatTammy promised to spill some tea
regarding your foray into theworld of dating apps.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I did.
Okay.
So I usually say raise yourarms, but because this is an
audio medium, so instead ofraising your hands, give us a
round of applause.
If you're here because you'regenuinely curious about issues
affecting Jews in Australia, theMiddle East and the world at
(03:51):
large, how about a round ofapplause if you're here because
you're nosy and you love knowingthings about the personal lives
of fellow Jews?
Okay, that was a very honestresponse.
(04:14):
I'm very impressed.
I'm going to spill some tea.
I did start app dating.
I am a hinge dating app successstory.
Someone's coming in right intime right on time.
That's fine.
Are you ashamed that you'relate?
Speaker 5 (04:32):
I don't need me to volunteer, so I'm proud.
Thank you, okay Be proud.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Come in, you've come in just at the time that I'm
going to spill some tea about myforay into dating apps.
I have a girlfriend now.
Yeah, not only that, she's herein the audience today.
Everyone's like looking around.
I'm not going to point her outbecause she's quite shy, but
yeah, how about another round ofapplause for that that bit of
(04:58):
tea?
Is that exciting?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
She did, I believe, inspire today's conversation,
because we tossed up all sortsof different topics For what we
wanted to focus on in thisrecording today, tammy, and in
the end you had something inmind About something she said at
one of your dates.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So it was our first date.
Our first date went for eighthours, which I'm told is classic
lesbian first date.
We covered so many topics andsomething that she picked up on.
She noticed that I said I feelbad or I feel guilty quite a lot
(05:41):
, and she didn't grow up withreligion.
She didn't grow up in a Jewishcommunity.
So she wondered if perhaps Ihad maybe a little bit of an
unhealthy relationship withshame and with guilt and whether
that's a Jewish thing.
And I know that for some of youwho are really into definitions
(06:03):
, that shame and guilt are twovery different things for you,
for me and for a lot of thepeople that I hang out with, I
feel like there's a Venn diagramand they overlap quite a bit.
Perhaps we'll get to that lateron today.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So, folks, if you are a regular listener to the pod
and I hope you are, and ifyou're not, you can get us on
all your go-to podcastingsources.
But if you are a regularlistener, you'll know that the
genesis of A Shame to Admit wasan attempt to release Tammy, and
perhaps some listeners as well,of the shame that they might be
(06:42):
feeling for not having theprerequisite knowledge to hold
their own at the Shabbat dinnerconversations, and so what we
wanted to do with the show wasto help give Tammy, and me as
well, some background and somecontext to you know better.
Hold us on.
So we didn't feel so much shamewhen you know we'd be sitting
there at the table and not ableto answer questions about
(07:05):
Australia's anti-Semitism crisisor Jewish penis sizes.
Thank you, marina Kamenev, forthat episode.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
That was an excellent episode.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It certainly took the series down an interesting
direction, yeah it enhanced theseries.
It was a big episode, that one.
It was very big.
But today, as alreadyforeshadowed, we wanted to
tackle shame itself.
What does Judaism have to sayabout shame?
Does Judaism have a shameproblem?
(07:35):
So, to help us navigate thischewy and potentially dewy
question, we have Rabbi RaufGanendi Put your hands together
and Rabbi Alison Conyer Over toyou, tammy.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Rabbi Ralph Ganendi, oam is the Interfaith and
Community Liaison at theAustralia Israel and Jewish
Affairs Council.
He's also senior rabbi toJewish Care Victoria.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And Rabbi Alison Konya is a senior rabbi at
Temple Beth Israel since Marchof 2024.
Rabbi Alison brings extensiveexperience in Jewish education,
interfaith dialogue, socialaction and a deep commitment to
Israel and a communityengagement and, of course, to
answering questions such as thethe ones we're about to ask ask
(08:31):
you.
Rabbi Allison so welcome.
Thank you both for being withus here this afternoon perhaps
we can start with you, rabbiAllison.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Let's begin with any misconceptions that people might
have about shame in Judaism.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
I thought you'd never ask.
So I have to just start bysaying that I'm also a
psychologist and I work for apractice of a man who is also
Jewish, and I said to himrecently that I think that guilt
and shame are the most uselessemotions in the world.
And he said to me, alison, theyare the most important emotions
(09:12):
and they're totally different.
And I said huh.
And so I listened to hisinterpretation.
I thought about what,everything that I knew and
thought and had this incredible,interesting awakening.
So my understanding of guiltI'll start with guilt right Is
you know, you feel guilty and itweighs you down and it consumes
you and you don't do anythingwith it.
(09:32):
And one of the things that hesaid is that he talked about how
guilt is something that we feelabout how we've treated another
person or what we have or wehaven't done.
It's about our actions, so it'soutward, focusing, whereas
shame is something that'sinternal.
It's about something that wefeel internally but we don't
actually do something about it.
(09:53):
I'll add, jewishly, that shameis something that we often
bestow upon others, like weshame someone or you're going to
bring shame upon your family orupon your people if you do this
.
So these are things that I thinkis really interesting and I
guess, looking at it Jewishlylike where does it come Jewishly
, because that's the rabbi partof me, so the Jewishly is, if
you take a look back in theTorah, you see you have, like
(10:14):
there's two different offerings.
I know you probably don't wantto hear it, it's not so exciting
, but there's the Hashemoffering and then there's a
Chetat offering.
There there's one that's a sinoffering and one that's a guilt
offering.
So one is something that you dounintentionally, like you mess
up, you hurt someone's feelings,you do something wrong but you
didn't mean to.
That's the chatat and the ashamis.
You know you did somethingwrong and you did it anyway,
(10:34):
right.
Both of them can lead to aninternal feeling of shame, right
, but Judaism focuses more onhow we respond to that and what
we do about it, not how we feelabout it.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
OK, before I throw to you, ralph, I just have to say
Rabbi Allison, you just saidthat shame and guilt are
completely useless emotions.
However, if Jews didn'texperience that or people didn't
experience that, you would beout of a job.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, I mean I could be apriest.
Maybe, you know, I don't know.
I think I changed my mind onthat.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
By the way, Ralph, anything to add?
Speaker 8 (11:07):
Most certainly, and it's actually the very opposite
of what you've just said.
I'm going to give you myguilt-edged version of it and I
think that we are predominantlywe are a guilt culture.
You know, the Catholics kind ofcompete with us for that
appellation, but I think wewould like to claim that we were
the first there.
But I think the Catholics kindof compete with us for that
appellation, but I think wewould like to claim that we were
the first there.
(11:27):
But I think we're more of aguilt culture than a shame
culture.
And I'll tell you why becausethe definition that I'm going to
take is one that comes fromRuth Benedict.
She was an anthropologist andshe was talking about Japanese
culture.
There's something that RabbiJonathan Sachs later picked up
on as well and she popularized.
She said there are two kinds ofsociety.
(11:49):
She says there's a guiltculture, and then there's the
shame culture, and ancientGreece, she said, like Japan,
was a shame culture and Judaismand the religions influenced by
it, most obviously Calvinismwere guilt cultures.
And so what's the differencebetween the two of them in this
definition Is that in shamecultures what matters is the
(12:12):
judgment of others.
Acting morally means conformingto a public role, rules and
expectations.
You do what other people expectyou to do.
You follow society'sconventions, and if you fail to
do so, society is going topunish you by subjecting you to
shame, ridicule, disapproval,humiliation, ostracism.
(12:35):
But guilt cultures.
And a guilt culture is whatmatters most is not what other
people think, but what the voiceof your conscience tells you.
It's not what other peoplethink, but what the voice of
your conscience tells you.
So living morally means livingaccording to internalized moral
imperatives.
You shall and you shall not.
So what matters is what youknow to be right and wrong.
(12:57):
So people in a shame cultureare other-directed.
They care about how they'regoing to look in the eyes of
others or what they would saytoday.
They care about their image.
And people in guilt culturesare more inner directed.
They care about what they knowabout themselves in moments of
absolute honesty.
So even if your public image isundamaged, if you know you've
(13:19):
done wrong, it's going to makeyou feel pretty uneasy.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Rabbi Allison, you mentioned before that, in
addition to being senior rabbi,you're also a practicing
psychologist as well, sointerested in how shame arises
in your therapeuticconversations with your Jewish
clients, and also with yourcongregants as well.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
And can you give us their names and addresses?
Speaker 7 (13:49):
OK, that wasn't one of the questions you asked me,
but it wasn't no tell me, that'sokay I can I?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
can know that before you go on, just a peek behind
the curtain is how dash and Iwork.
He does this all the time.
I have the questions out, thequestions are ready to go and at
the last minute he comes inthere with a fresh.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
No one's going to report you for any disclosures
of client details, but could yougive us some sense of?
We're particularly probablyinterested in your Jewish
clients and your Jewishcongregants, obviously.
Speaker 7 (14:16):
Yeah.
So I'm not going to tell youthat.
But what I will say is that alot of people come to me and say
, oh Rabbi, I feel guilty aboutthe fact that I haven't, you
know, observed Shabbat, or Ifeel guilty about the fact that
I swore, or I feel guilty aboutthe fact that I actually don't
believe in God.
And I'm like, do you reallyfeel guilty about it?
(14:36):
Because I don't think you do.
But you know, they feel like ifthey admit it and I do say you
know wrong religion.
But you know, because I thinkthey're comfortable.
And by saying it I feel likepeople feel like they appease
their guilt, absolve themselvesof their guilt.
So you know, I think thatthat's actually not what people
feel guilty about.
But to me that's actually notabout guilt or shame.
(14:59):
It's about a lack of connectionor an assumption that you're
supposed to do something thatyou're not doing.
And as a progressive Jew I saidwell, why do you feel that way?
Does that really situncomfortably with you?
Are you feeling somethingmissing?
Or how do you connect?
So for me that's actually noteven a conversation about guilt
or shame.
You know, for clients that come, whether they're Jewish or
they're not Jewish, it.
You know it manifests in inmany different ways, but I do
hope you ask me one of thequestions that you want to do
because I want to respond to oneof your comments about how it?
(15:21):
moves on.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sorry, Tammy, the nudge is clearly necessary today
.
Probably this actually goesback to one of the things that
you said at the front, RabbiAllison, about the wanting to
understand.
Are there any positive aspectsto shame?
Because the way that Tammy hasframed this is that shame is
(15:50):
inherently negative and a badthing.
But if we think about theTalmud or rabbinic commentary,
where is shame used as ateaching moment, as an
opportunity for some positiveinsight and learning?
Let's start with you, RabbiRalph.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
I think that even though we've said, yes, we are
more of a guilt culture, westill are going to let shame in,
and shame is certainly.
There are times, in fact, whichI would say that even
halachically, traditionally,that there is a place for shame.
Maybe the example you knowthere are some sins, some things
that people do that is wrong,that I think it is important
(16:31):
that they acknowledge andarticulate the sense of shame.
So I think there are somethings that some people should
be ashamed of.
You know, in cases of sexualabuse, or we had the Royal
Commission into abuse, we've hadMalka Leifa, and I think that
is a place where shame is bothnecessary and maybe even
imperative that it be expressed,and I think, halakhically as
(16:53):
well, it would say that shame issometimes necessary.
You know, in some instances andanother example of where there's
a very kind of public shaming,if you like, from the Torah, is
with the mitzorah, with theperson becomes a leper, or it's
called leper, but they got thishorrible skin kind of condition.
It was like wow, everyone couldsee that you have been doing
(17:14):
something wrong because it'sexpressed.
The Torah puts it expressed onyour skin or, even worse, your
house starts showing signs ofthis contamination, which was a
moral contamination.
So I think that was the Torah'sacknowledgement that there is a
necessity sometimes for shame.
I think that it is terriblyabused today and you may want to
ask about that.
(17:34):
I think the way that shame isbeing used in our cancel kind of
culture I think is incrediblynegative and abusive form of
shame.
But I do think that there is alegitimate and a positive source
of shame.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
So I disagree with you.
I think shame is horrific.
I think that shame is look,just what we read in the Parshat
yesterday.
You know, when you talk aboutthe sotai, you talk about the
adulterous woman.
It's this you know, the husbandhas this jealous fit and he
subjects this woman, his wife,to this horrible public kind of
procedure.
(18:06):
Whether she's guilty or not ofcommitting adultery is
irrelevant.
I mean it's irrelevant.
There's a punishment and aconsequence, but regardless,
she's shamed.
Whether she's proven innocentor not, she is shamed through
the process and that is a stainon her being right.
The fact that people feel soashamed of what's happening in
(18:26):
their home that they can'tpublicly go out and share what's
happening.
For the sake, Shlombayit, godforbid.
We bring shame upon our house,our husband, our wife, our
community, so we hold it in.
I think it is a b'shayt.
It's shameful that we use shameas an excuse and as an
apologetic for terrible behavior, though I think that where I do
agree with you, I just I woulduse it.
(18:48):
You know, when you talk aboutMalka Laifa, you talk about
people that do shameful acts,that do horrible acts.
If people like bask in theirshame, they don't move forward.
Right, you have to feel bad.
A chuvah process you have to.
You know, you have to recognizeyou did something wrong.
You feel bad.
But if you just feel ashamed oh, I'm a bad person, woe is me,
woe is me what do you do?
Nothing.
You just sit there and you justfeel sorry for yourself.
(19:08):
You're a terrible person.
But if you transform that I dida wrong thing, I did something
bad, now I'm going to turn thisinto action Then you feel guilty
about how badly you did this.
Now I have to change it right.
That's where the chuvah processworks.
So I think that that's reallyimportant and I think that
people often confuse.
You know you talk about whatare the key learnings?
I wrote down key learnings,right.
What are the things that that Ithink that people tend to place
(19:30):
shame and this is where I agreewith you earlier that people
put shame upon others.
Right, we place shame uponothers, but the beautiful thing
is that we don't have to acceptit.
Someone may think thatsomething we do is shameful the
way we dress or the way we act,the way things we say oh my God,
you shouldn't do that.
That's shameful, maybe.
Maybe I think so, maybe not,you know.
Maybe I recognize it and changeit right.
But it's important to bedistinguished between shame and
(19:54):
embarrassment, you know, andhumiliation, and you know, and
making excuses for the behaviors.
So I have more, but I'm sureyou have other things to say.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Thank you.
And for those of you watchingor for those listening who
aren't here, I keep doing anexcited like yes motion every
time Rabbi Ralph and RabbiAllison disagree, and that's for
two reasons One, becauseconflict is great for podcast
ratings and two, because it'sjust in this day and age.
(20:21):
It is so refreshing and amazingto see two people respectfully
disagree and no one's stormingout of the room.
Isn't that so lovely?
Yes, thank you.
Thank you, rabbi Allison.
I'm really glad that youbrought up the example of the
woman being shamed, which tiesinto gender roles and also
(20:46):
sexuality, because my nextquestion is as follows Do you
think shame has historicallybeen used to control behaviour
around gender, sexuality orfamily roles in Judaism, and is
that changing?
And before you answer that,actually no, you answer first,
(21:08):
and then I'll give an examplefrom a core memory from high
school at Moriah College.
I am from Sydney.
Did I mention that ConflictGood for the podcast?
Speaker 7 (21:23):
All right.
Well, I have a bunch of thingsand a bunch of quotes to say
which is interesting.
Yes, I think absolutely.
There's lots of things in ourtradition and aspects that
aren't designed to bring shamebut, I think, inadvertently
bring shame upon people.
I think perhaps the initialintent wasn't shameful, but the
impact is now shameful.
So snewt, in general, right,it's designed to show respect
(21:46):
for your body, respect for yourrelationship.
What's snewt oh sorry, snewt ismodesty.
It's about the way that youdress and the way you cover
yourself or how you carryyourself in different ways.
So there's specific rules inour tradition for both men and
women, but mostly for women.
And you know, in terms of howyou dress and how you behave.
And if you do it in anon-sniwet type way, then people
(22:06):
feel shameful.
You know, like it's the modernday way of saying, oh well, she
dressed like that, so shedeserved to be raped.
Not that our tradition goesthat way, but for me as a
progressive Jew, it feels someway.
There's also so many laws aboutwhat a woman can and can't do
and about how she has to go toher father or her husband to get
permission to do things, whichis really demeaning, as if a
(22:28):
woman doesn't have a right onher own.
And again, looking at wheresome of the rules were there,
they were designed to protectthe woman, but now, if they're
kept in such a way, it inhibitsand it traps the women.
So these are just a few of myfavorite quotes.
Because of the talkative natureof women, the Torah gave bitter
waters.
So we're punished because we'retalkative.
There are three types of peoplewhose talk is not to be
(22:50):
believed those who play dice,people whose talk is not to be
believed, those who play dice,those who lend with interest,
and women.
Women are light-minded.
This is all from the Talmud.
Right now, a woman is more proneto gossip than the man.
Ten curses were given to Eve,including that she speaks much
and keeps nothing in her heart.
It is forbidden for a woman toraise her voice in song before
(23:13):
men.
A woman should not leave herhouse too frequently.
Her husband may prevent herfrom doing so.
And, of course, one of myfavorite ones that you might say
every day, but I certainlydon't, is thank you, god, for
not making me a woman.
So my husband recognizes thatevery time I complain about
womanly issues.
But you know, that being said,there are a lot of things that I
do think hold back women.
(23:33):
I know you want me to stop, butI have to say one last thing.
I don't want you to ever stop.
All right, good, because Imight not be aware of that, but
just one thing that I just want.
Just story in the Torah that Iwant to say that is just
profoundly transformational forme is the story of Judah and
Tamar, right?
So the story of Judah and Tamaris a story where there's this
weird biblical thing that if ahusband dies, leaving his wife
(23:56):
childless, she is to marry hisnearest relative and the first
child they have is in the nameof the deceased husband.
Slightly gross but slightlybeautiful all at the same time,
but you know, to try to keep thememory alive.
That being said, tamar'shusband died and there was no
real living relative that wasavailable.
So she wanted to honor thattradition and honor her husband,
(24:17):
but her father-in-law kept kindof keeping the youngest brother
from her.
Anyway, long story short, she,dressed up as a harlot, seduces
her father-in-law, gets pregnantand then people shame her, say,
oh, my goodness, look at her,she's such a slut.
She went around.
You know she's pregnant and she, you know she's dishonoring her
husband blah blah blah.
But she was a smart woman.
(24:37):
What did she do?
She dressed as a harlot.
Her father-in-law didn't haveanything Said here.
I'll give you, you know, mycloak and my staff and you know,
and I'll pay you back later.
And he shame him publicly.
What she said was whoever thesebelong to is the father of my
child.
And then Judah, who could haveshamed her?
(24:58):
He could have denied it, hecould have lied, but he didn't.
He actually instead said youknow what?
She is more righteous than I amand she did the right thing by
the tradition, you know.
And they all lived happily everafter.
But from that story, despiteall the weird layers of you know
, we won't go there.
What I find from this story isthat something that could be
considered shameful.
If you take responsibility forthe wrong you do or you keep
(25:21):
your eye on your integrity ofwhat's right, then, if you own
it, you can take something thatcould be shameful and make it
into a learning opportunity.
So that's what I want to share.
Speaker 8 (25:30):
So first of all, I've got to disagree with some of
the things you said.
What I want to share.
So, first of all, I've got todisagree with some of the things
you said, and I'm certainly oneof those who have spoken and
written about the fact thatwomen have been demeaned and
excluded a lot in our tradition.
But at the same time I thinkthat the quotes I would say
you're cherry picking them andthat we can find that, but we
(25:52):
can also find other quotes whichdo not subscribe to that Also.
That's a kind of a Talmudicview.
Eliezer Berkowitz, some of youmay know a rabbi, philosopher,
who lived here in Sydney for awhile.
He was a rabbi in Sydney at thecentral synagogue there, but
he's written a book alsospeaking about how the attitudes
, even biblically andTalmudically, change towards
women and that we don't, yes,even biblically and Talmudically
(26:14):
, change towards women and thatwe don't, yes, some of the
Talmudic rabbis were classicgreat misogynists, but you know
a lot of us.
So that's why we agree, yes,but there was a change, has been
a change in attitude and Ithink that, yes, you know it's
also when you've got to look atwhich communities, sort of in
the ultra-Orthodox communities,there is still that kind of
(26:46):
perception not all of them, butin a lot of them, in the Haredi
community of one particular guy.
He's studying in the SatnaYeshiva but he got interested in
the Chabad philosophy and thoseguys there they like to shame
each other, by the way, they seeeach other as opponents and he
was kicked out and shamed at theSatna Yeshiva because he was
(27:07):
caught with a copy of the Tanyathe Chabad handbook, as we know
so well here in Australia.
So there is certain withinultra-Orthodox communities more
than kind of the community thatI come from, which would be the
more modern Orthodox kind ofcommunities there is still that
very strong shaming and I thinkparticularly women are exposed
to it.
(27:28):
But I think things arehopefully changing because it's
been exclusion withinOrthodoxodoxy and in certain
parts of orthodoxy, still verystrong exclusionary things
towards women, towards LGBT,towards anyone who maybe
expresses views that arecontrary to what is the
conforming position.
(27:48):
So that still exists.
But I like to think that it ischanging in certain circles and
that there is, instead oflooking at, you know the kind of
orthodoxy had this, you knowwho can we leave out, you know
it was very exclusionary and youcan't come in and you're not
allowed and I always, you know,sort of said you know, can we
stop with who we're excludingand look for a change in who we
(28:09):
can include, and that we are avery big tent as well.
One of the things I wrote aboutin my book is the difference
between the Ark of Noah, the Arkof Noah and the tent of Avraham
.
Because Noah is an insular, youclose yourself up in the Ark.
You don't want to see the wavesout there, you don't want to
see what's happening to peopleout there, whereas Avraham and
(28:29):
Sarah open themselves.
It's an open tent and sayingwho can we invite in?
And let's invite everyone in,and that's why at a chuppah, by
the way, that's one of theexplanations why a chuppah is
completely open.
Let's be open to the worldinstead of closed off to it.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Dash and I were discussing this question in the
green room and I said perhaps astory where this came up in my
own life was in high school.
I went to Moriah College inSydney Jewish modern orthodox
school and one of my corememories and my friend's core
memories is one night at thiscamp, which is a how do we
(29:06):
describe Counterpoint?
We had a volunteer here whowhat's your name?
Danielle, and Danielle, can youexplain what is counterpoint?
Camp brainwashing and jewishindoctrination okay for students
, students in year 9 to 11, atthe range of jewish schools just
past its 50th year since it wasfirst brought out to australia
(29:26):
in 1974 it came for the firsttime.
okay, a generous reading wouldsay that Counterpoint is a camp
to encourage and inspire Jewishchildren to have a love of their
faith or their culture.
We can hold both those truthsat once.
And one of the evenings I wasin year 11 and we were promised
the girls were promised anevening with a woman who was
(29:52):
going to teach us how to havegood sex, and I was so excited.
I was like, finally someone'sgoing to talk to me about it.
We went into a room with thiswoman and this woman sat us down
and said in order to have goodsex, it needs to be with your
husband and you need to have nothad sex with anyone else before
(30:16):
that, because if you do, theninto that bed you are not just
bringing your husband, butyou're bringing all the men that
you've slept with before andall those experiences.
So, to take a leaf out of yourbook, rabbi Allison, you said
that we should turn these intolearning experiences.
(30:36):
What can we learn?
I'm going to ask anyone in theaudience.
What can we learn?
Anyone?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Not everything you get told at school is correct.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Good on you.
Thank you for that good on you.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Thank you for that.
In a moment we're going to openit up to the floor and we're
going to give you theopportunity to ask some further
questions of rabbi allison andrabbi ralph about the question
of shame in judaism, or we'regonna have a little bit of fun.
We're gonna see how this goes.
We're gonna play the wild card,and the wild card is what's
something that you're deeplyshamed of, or maybe just a
(31:19):
little bit ashamed of, thatyou'd like to share with a rabbi
and the rest of the ashamed toadmit world and those in the
room here today.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Whoever's brave enough to share something that
they're ashamed to admit willget some merch.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
We've got some TJI merch which we'll be happy to
gift to you after we finishtoday.
So just have a think about that, marinate on that question for
a moment, and I think let's havesome fun in the remaining time
that we've got.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
It can be a big question, like a big something
that you're deeply ashamed toadmit, or something like small,
like I didn't pay for a ticketto Limord and I snuck in here
today.
Okay, we won't tell anyone.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So I'm going to go off script again, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I will allow it.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Possibly not going to annoy Rabbi Ralph, because I
consider Ralph a bit of a mentorand I've kind of.
I think maybe I've granted theability to ask this question.
So, ralph, I'm aware thatthroughout your years as a
rabbinical leader and someonewho is, let's say, pushes the
(32:26):
envelope a little bit withinorthodoxy, you've been a strong
advocate for the place of LGBTIplus congregants.
You've also you have, I thinkfor a long time pushed things
with regard to the place ofwomen within Orthodox
congregations as well, althoughI'm sure there were some say you
didn't push it far enough.
(32:46):
But anyway, the point is thatyou have been someone that has
pushed some of these questions.
Am I right in thinking that youhave experienced shame from
your Orthodox colleagues andfrom the larger structure, of
which I won't name, thatoversees Orthodoxy in Australia?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
We want names and addresses.
Speaker 8 (33:11):
Well, I write about it in the book so it's out there
.
But yes, I think probably oneof the most pointed images or
reflections I have of that waswhen in the early days and I do
think that in the early dayswhen I was still rabbi at Mount
Scopus in Beit Ha'aron, weintroduced then which was seen
(33:31):
and it seems almost ridiculousto think about it today, but we
just introduced the fact thatwomen could carry the Torah in
an Orthodox congregation duringthe Shabbat service.
You know, we passed the Torahto women and I was hauled.
I was a young rabbi, I justarrived, hadn't been long in
Melbourne and I was part of theRabbinical Council Victoria, and
(33:54):
they called me to theInquisition and it really felt
like the Inquisition becausethey just lined up there and I
came into this room, daniel inthe lion's den, kind of felt
like it and it was.
You know what you're doing andbecause it had been reported in
the Jewish news, what you'redoing, you know it's not right
and it is shameful and how canyou do it.
(34:15):
And then it was carried on at arabbinic conference where one
leading rabbi at the time saidthis little rebeler, which was
quite clever, but at the time itreally felt like a public
shaming there in front of allthe other rabbis.
You know this little rebel anda rebel you know what does he
know?
Anyway, it actually still getsto me.
(34:36):
So I think part of it is as yousay.
You talk about the stain ofshame and that it's really hard
to rub that out.
Would you say you grew from it,though?
Oh, most definitely.
Yeah, I think I just grew morebolshie and you know that kind
of thing just brought it out,and we, you know, stood by it,
and I had some good friends whocertainly supported me in that.
(34:57):
A lot of you would know them.
It was both Mark and JohnnyBaker.
You know Mark loved this kindof thing, you know, come on,
show them, ralph and reallysupported me and helped me find
my voice and give me the courageto express my voice.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Rabbi Ralph, in a lot of communities, taking words
that are originally used todegrade or demean you and
reclaiming them as your own canoften help overcome that shame.
So are you ready to have at-shirt that just says Rebela on
it?
Because if so, I make merch andI would be happy to do that.
(35:31):
Would you wear it?
Speaker 8 (35:33):
I think so.
I mean I like your one.
So as long as we can justmerchandise, we can give a
special price to those who arehere.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Whoever tells us the most the juiciest, chewiest,
shameful thing this afternoon,we'll get a Rebella t-shirt.
Okay.
Rebella with a cause.
Speaker 8 (35:52):
Someone just said yes , thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So, look, we've got 15 minutes left to go.
Don't be shy.
Really keen to hear what yourshames are.
Or if anything that we've justbeen prodding Rabbi Ralph and
Rabbi Alison about has provokedyou into a question or a thought
, share it with us.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Hello Karen.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
Hello, I'd first like to say I like the way Rabbi
Ralph is shamelessly plugginghis book.
You picked that up.
I'd like to ask both for abonium.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ithink one of the techniques to
get recalcitrant husbands togive their wife a get would be
shame.
Is that correct and does it?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
work.
Can you also explain what theget is?
Speaker 7 (36:41):
Well, briefly, because it's more of an issue
for you, but the get is a Jewishdivorce and in our community if
a woman is of childbearing age,then we actually send them all
to the Orthodox.
Because if she decides shedoesn't want, if she doesn't get
a get from her husband who hasto give her this legal bill of
divorce, then if she were everto get married and have children
(37:01):
, that child will have a statusthat cannot be actually undone.
There's nothing we can do toundo that status.
So it's a really, even thoughwe think it's ridiculous, it
actually can't be undone.
And if the child grows up anddecides they want to be orthodox
, they want to marry someone andlive an observant lifestyle,
they'll have a hard time.
So it is something that is aproblem.
But if they decide they don'twant to do it, the husband
doesn't want to do it and theydon't care one way or another,
(37:22):
we'll still marry them, like westill will.
Not in the progressive movementwon't require it.
So again, is that shamingsomeone?
And again, you can talk aboutsome of the things.
I know there's some prettyinteresting things that people
do, whether it's shaming,whether it's embarrassing or
whether it's calling out.
Again, I don't think thatthey're shaming the person.
They're calling them out forvarious things, and whether or
(37:43):
not that person chooses to feelshame for their actions is a
different story.
So I don't know that we canshame someone if someone doesn't
accept that and see it as ashameful act.
Speaker 8 (37:53):
Thanks for that, alison.
I think it is one of theelements of Jewish law and
halakha that is a shameful onethat we have not found a way of
liberating women from that awfulcondition of where the man
refuses to give the get and theytherefore can never marry
somebody in orthodox, or if theygo and marry someone else, then
(38:14):
their children are damned andall sorts of things.
And I think it is something thatI really agree with Blue
Greenberg saying you know, wherethere's a rabbinic world,
there's a halachic way, and Ireally believe that it is
something that we failure oforthodoxy on all levels, and
there have been people who havesuggested solutions and options
which have not been accepted.
In this case, whether we call itshaming and it has been done,
(38:36):
and it is done in orthodoxcommunities, if there's a man
known to be refusing, arecalcitrant husband, refusing
to give his wife the gift, thenI know that I say as well I
don't think that person, thatman, should be allowed to belong
to this.
She'll never mind have aposition of honor or even called
up to the Torah, because whathe is doing is something which
(38:58):
is so egregious it should not beallowed.
And so I do think that therepublicly, and even publishing
his name, as is done in someplaces, whether it's in the
local Jewish, the Jewish newsyou can put an advert in in the
Jewish news or whether it's evenin the community.
I do think that that is a casewhere, hopefully, and it has
worked on some occasions,whether it's through the
(39:19):
embarrassment of Yom Kippur, orthat it has been because very
often those men presentthemselves in public as being
these wonderful communityfigures, when what they're doing
is so dastardly.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I think forget about the Australian Jewish news.
They should have a billboardoutside Yumi's Kosher Seafood in
Riponley, because that's whereeveryone's looking right.
Any other questions?
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Tammy, big fan, thank you.
My question sort of leads onfrom that and I guess is there a
role for people who perhapsdon't feel guilt and engage in
like repeated problematicbehaviour In the case of an
adulterer maybe they're a serialadulterer Is there a role that
(40:07):
shame plays in perhaps gettingthem to stop that behaviour?
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Good question.
Speaker 8 (40:14):
I can think of an example.
There was a very well-knownrabbi in South Africa who was a
recidivist adulterer, serialadulterer, and his behaviour was
only stopped when it waspublicised and in a sense I
think there it was the actualpublic shame which led to
(40:34):
cessation, stopping that kind ofactivity.
So I think it did work.
I'm not sure if it will alwayswork and you can probably
comment from your experience,particularly in the psychology
field.
Speaker 7 (40:44):
Yeah, so I feel like I have a more psychology answer
to that, because it is somethingthat I deal with on a regular
basis.
So, again, what?
Again, you know what causesthat behavior.
You know what generates thatbehavior.
Is it a disrespect for thepartner?
Is it a lack of psychology?
Call it theory of mind,understanding something from
someone else's perspective, likeactually understanding.
Is there an issue of lack ofempathy?
(41:05):
Is there a splitting in theirmind between what they're doing
and how it impacts somebody?
Is it an OCD Like?
Is it literally an obsession,you know, is it something that
they actually can't control?
Is there something you knowcompulsive nature to it?
So you know, for me, someonethat is a compulsive adulterer,
there's something else going onbeyond it, that it's not just a
matter of sitting down and youknow, and talking to your rabbi,
(41:27):
or even shaming them.
It might it temporarily, but ifthere's something else
underneath it, that's somethingelse underneath that needs to be
addressed.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
What's amazing, Ralph , is that that community came
together and believed whoeverwas saying that this person is
committing these acts.
I know that it's quitedifficult sometimes to believe,
particularly the women who aresaying that this behaviour is
Well.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
if he made his way around the entire Johannesburg
community, then there's everychance everyone knew what he was
up to.
We had another question.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
And what is his name and address?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
And hello to our South African listeners.
Great to have you with us.
Speaker 6 (42:05):
Mine's not a question , a much less juicy admission,
but as a long-time listener anda big fan, I think you'll relate
to this one, Tammy.
Until earlier this year I'mashamed to admit I couldn't ride
a bicycle welcome to the cluband I have now had lessons as an
adult, with lots offive-year-olds having their own
(42:26):
lessons wow you're doing betterthan Tammy, we might might add,
because you still can't ride,can you?
Speaker 1 (42:38):
I can ride, just not well.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Just going back to the conversation we were having,
is it the decent Jewish thingto do to shame somebody into
behaving better?
Speaker 8 (42:51):
It's not the first response, no, and I think that
shaming and embarrassing there'sa whole set of rules about, and
saying one of the worst thingsyou can do is to embarrass the
person in public it says yes,it's like actually killing them.
So I would think it issomething kind of those last
resorts only when you have triedevery other possible way
(43:13):
perhaps to stop the behaviorwhich is damaging and harmful to
them and to others.
I think then only, and, as Isay, that's why we prefer guilt
to shame.
Speaker 7 (43:23):
But I'm going to reframe and use neither of those
words because I don't see it asguilt or shame, because I think
we I think we should never justlike you, should never hit a
child, you should never shameanother human, human being.
There's no excuse for that.
But by calling out somebody orsaying and not letting them,
that's a consequence for them.
That's not shaming them.
You're not allowed to be amember of the synagogue.
We're not going to call you foran aliyah.
We're not going to take yournumber.
(43:44):
We're going to announce topeople what you do.
To me it's a consequence.
Just be aware, because I'mthinking any other women out
there if you know that this guyhasn't divorced his wife, you
stay far away.
I'm not shaming him.
I'm just actually doing my.
You know my civil duty, mypublic diligence, to be able to
inform people what you do.
So to me it's like are youpurposely doing this to make
(44:05):
them feel shame and awful andhorrible, or are you doing it
because you want them to changetheir behavior?
So I just, to me it's a reframein your mind, even though the
impact may be the same ordifferent.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
So I've always thought that there's two kinds
of shame.
There's shame and there'sirrational shame.
And the way I see it is thatour community is changing and
what would have been shameful inthe 70s like I had divorced
parents that was something thatwas shameful.
Then, of course, when mychildren decided not to marry
(44:41):
Jews, I felt a certain shameabout it.
These come under the heading ofwhat I call irrational shame.
Do you understand thedifference?
And now I've got something.
It's happening in the communityall the time and I'm going to
tell you guys because it'sirrational shame, but one of my
children has decided she doesn'twant anything to do with us
anymore and it's been nine yearsof estrangement from her.
So I'm telling you now becauseI'm not going to feel irrational
(45:07):
shame about it Just a question.
Speaker 9 (45:12):
In the Catholic Church, I think there's this
idea of confessional where youcan go to an equivalent priest
and ask for forgiveness for sins.
Speaker 8 (45:25):
Is there something equivalent in the Jewish
religion?
Oh, we love confession as well.
Go to shul on Yom Kippur.
Al-kheit, al-kheit, al-kheit.
It is the Al-Kheit and theashamnu bagadnu.
It's a collective kind ofconfession, and it's felt that
you know, if you're notspecifying who, you don't go
down the list and the soul andfor the process of tshuva, which
Alison mentioned before.
(45:45):
And coming back to what yousaid is that we believe in
tshuva and the persons.
Most people have that capacityto change.
(46:06):
I think, though, that I justwant to mention I mean, we
haven't spoken about that youknow, there's the shaming
culture of today, which so manypeople in our community, over
the last 18 months, for example,have been exposed to, and that
kind of canceling that kind ofshame is something which I think
is not acceptable in any Jewishforum, never mind a moral forum
(46:27):
.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
Can I just also say there's also a caveat on Yom
Kippur, but also every night yougo to slate, there's a
traditional like you know,forgive me for the wrongs that
I've done during the day.
So it's trying to go into bedwith a clean conscious.
But the other thing that ourtradition says, which I think is
brilliant, is that you can't dosomething wrong knowing that
it's wrong and knowing thatyou're going to ask for
(46:49):
forgiveness, that there is aconstant.
You don't have to wait for theend of the year, you don't have
to go through somebody else toget forgiveness.
It's something that you'resupposed to be constantly, every
day.
Have I lived the way I wantedto do?
Have I acted the way?
It's just like?
It's like a mirror to reflect,which I think is a beautiful
thing.
But I want to jump on whatyou've.
(47:14):
We talk about it.
We publicize the fact that it'shappening to jews, yada, yada,
yada.
What we don't talk about and Ithink is shameful even though I
said we should there's no suchthing.
But you know, what I think is alike is is really horrific is
that when people disagree andthey have different points of
views, that they get shamed,that jews that don't feel, you
know, know that if they want tocriticize Israel or they do, or
they think Israel is doingeverything, that's great.
(47:35):
Either way, I don't care, youknow.
But like they can't actuallysit together without feeling
ashamed that they don't feelsafe in the space.
And two things happened in thelast few weeks.
One is in Israel.
There was a reformedcongregation.
They were showing a film thattalked about Palestinian and
Israeli suffering andreconciliation and their
synagogue was stoned by Jewishpeople and people were hurt.
(47:55):
That happened.
And then recently there is areformed rabbi in Paris who was
getting death threats from theJewish community because she
criticized something that Israelis doing.
Now I don't really care, andI've said this at my synagogue.
Like what everyone's politicsare, you know, you can be
whatever, I don't care, right,left, whatever, it doesn't
matter.
Like, if you're going todisagree, disagree respectfully,
don't cancel another Jew.
(48:16):
There's enough people out therethat are doing that to us.
To me that is the biggest shamethat that I have people coming
to me saying I want to feel safein the Jewish community, but I
don't feel like I have a spaceto to give my voice.
Whether I agree or disagreewith them is irrelevant.
There needs to be a space thatwe can safely and respectfully
disagree.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Thank you.
I know that Rabbi Ralph hasbeen a mentor of yours, dash,
for quite some time.
Rabbi Allison, we've just met,but you're my mentor now, so
before you go, we need to readthe outro.
I need two volunteers Katia,come on down, and someone I
(48:56):
haven't heard from today.
Hello, katja Ariel is in theaudience today.
She released a book this week.
Speaker 5 (49:06):
The book is called.
It's called Ferryman, the Lifeand Death Work of Ephraim Finch
called.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Ferryman, the Life and Death Work of Ephraim Finch,
and Katja hasn't officiallybeen invited on the podcast, but
she will be.
Speaker 10 (49:23):
And PJ you have been listening to.
A Shame to Admit, withMelbourne's favourite Jewish
adjacent mensch, dash Lawrence,and Sydney's own
state-of-the-art sprinter, TammySussman.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Jonathan Jenks.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
If you like the podcast, forward it to your
therapist.
Ask them if it counts as selfcare.
Speaker 10 (49:46):
If you need to move some money around before the end
of financial year, consider me,consider sponsoring future
episodes of this show or postcash to Tammy at.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
As always.
Thanks for your support andlook out for Dash and Tammy next
week.
Thank you.
We ready, so let's start with the question Are you
interested in issues affectingJews in Australia, the Middle
East and the world at large?
Yes, okay.
Are you interested in issuesaffecting Jews in Australia, the
Middle East and the world atlarge?
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place,
(00:31):
and if you answered no, it's toolate.
We're locking the doors now.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Good afternoon everyone.
I'm Dash Lawrence from theJewish Independent and today
your third cousin, Tammy Sussman, and I will be calling on
experts and each other toaddress some of the ignorant
questions about you guessed itJudaism's relationship with
(00:58):
shame.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent podcast A shame to
admit for the very first timebeing recorded live.
Good afternoon Limwood Oz,melbourne.
(01:31):
It is wonderful to be with younear the end of a very busy, fun
, interesting, rich day.
One of Limwood Oz.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I'm Dash Lawrence, executive Director at the Jewish
Independent, and I am TJI andLimwood Oz, melbourne's Chief
Nudge Officer, tammy Sussman,does everyone here know what a
nudge is?
Someone just said they'reashamed to admit that they don't
know what a nudge is, dash.
Can you enlighten us?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I I'm looking at someone, Tammy, and I'm
thinking of someone inparticular someone who nags,
someone who pesters have I gotit right?
Someone who won't stopbothering you about something?
Okay, Right.
Usually I think of this personas occasionally annoying, but
you know, it's said in anaffectionate manner.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
That's the key word there.
It's affectionate.
I would go so far as to saythat nudges are a little bit
adorable and necessary, and I'ma proud nudge.
I will admit to that.
I nudged hard, I promoted hardfor the event today.
It's what I do I nudge.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You did, tammy.
Yes, you generously offered tostand in front of Yumi's
Seafoods in Riponlee.
From memory I did A few weeksago.
You raised this idea ofstanding in front with a
billboard for $100 an hour.
Yeah, I couldn't approve thatrequest, unfortunately, but it
was a good effort, well done.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Thank you.
I would have done it for 18kilograms of trout mousse.
Just so that you know you couldhave negotiated a bit harder
with that one.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You even tempted our audience members, some of whom
are here today.
Those of you who've beenlistening over the past few
weeks, you'll remember thatTammy promised to spill some tea
regarding your foray into theworld of dating apps.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I did.
Okay.
So I usually say raise yourarms, but because this is an
audio medium, so instead ofraising your hands, give us a
round of applause.
If you're here because you'regenuinely curious about issues
affecting Jews in Australia, theMiddle East and the world at
(03:51):
large, how about a round ofapplause if you're here because
you're nosy and you love knowingthings about the personal lives
of fellow Jews?
Okay, that was a very honestresponse.
(04:14):
I'm very impressed.
I'm going to spill some tea.
I did start app dating.
I am a hinge dating app successstory.
Someone's coming in right intime right on time.
That's fine.
Are you ashamed that you'relate?
Speaker 5 (04:32):
I don't need me to volunteer, so I'm proud.
Thank you, okay Be proud.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Come in, you've come in just at the time that I'm
going to spill some tea about myforay into dating apps.
I have a girlfriend now.
Yeah, not only that, she's herein the audience today.
Everyone's like looking around.
I'm not going to point her outbecause she's quite shy, but
yeah, how about another round ofapplause for that that bit of
(04:58):
tea?
Is that exciting?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
She did, I believe, inspire today's conversation,
because we tossed up all sortsof different topics For what we
wanted to focus on in thisrecording today, tammy, and in
the end you had something inmind About something she said at
one of your dates.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
So it was our first date.
Our first date went for eighthours, which I'm told is classic
lesbian first date.
We covered so many topics andsomething that she picked up on.
She noticed that I said I feelbad or I feel guilty quite a lot
(05:41):
, and she didn't grow up withreligion.
She didn't grow up in a Jewishcommunity.
So she wondered if perhaps Ihad maybe a little bit of an
unhealthy relationship withshame and with guilt and whether
that's a Jewish thing.
And I know that for some of youwho are really into definitions
(06:03):
, that shame and guilt are twovery different things for you,
for me and for a lot of thepeople that I hang out with, I
feel like there's a Venn diagramand they overlap quite a bit.
Perhaps we'll get to that lateron today.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So, folks, if you are a regular listener to the pod
and I hope you are, and ifyou're not, you can get us on
all your go-to podcastingsources.
But if you are a regularlistener, you'll know that the
genesis of A Shame to Admit wasan attempt to release Tammy, and
perhaps some listeners as well,of the shame that they might be
(06:42):
feeling for not having theprerequisite knowledge to hold
their own at the Shabbat dinnerconversations, and so what we
wanted to do with the show wasto help give Tammy, and me as
well, some background and somecontext to you know better.
Hold us on.
So we didn't feel so much shamewhen you know we'd be sitting
there at the table and not ableto answer questions about
(07:05):
Australia's anti-Semitism crisisor Jewish penis sizes.
Thank you, marina Kamenev, forthat episode.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
That was an excellent episode.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
It certainly took the series down an interesting
direction, yeah it enhanced theseries.
It was a big episode, that one.
It was very big.
But today, as alreadyforeshadowed, we wanted to
tackle shame itself.
What does Judaism have to sayabout shame?
Does Judaism have a shameproblem?
(07:35):
So, to help us navigate thischewy and potentially dewy
question, we have Rabbi RaufGanendi Put your hands together
and Rabbi Alison Conyer Over toyou, tammy.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Rabbi Ralph Ganendi, oam is the Interfaith and
Community Liaison at theAustralia Israel and Jewish
Affairs Council.
He's also senior rabbi toJewish Care Victoria.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And Rabbi Alison Konya is a senior rabbi at
Temple Beth Israel since Marchof 2024.
Rabbi Alison brings extensiveexperience in Jewish education,
interfaith dialogue, socialaction and a deep commitment to
Israel and a communityengagement and, of course, to
answering questions such as thethe ones we're about to ask ask
(08:31):
you.
Rabbi Allison so welcome.
Thank you both for being withus here this afternoon perhaps
we can start with you, rabbiAllison.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Let's begin with any misconceptions that people might
have about shame in Judaism.
Speaker 7 (08:48):
I thought you'd never ask.
So I have to just start bysaying that I'm also a
psychologist and I work for apractice of a man who is also
Jewish, and I said to himrecently that I think that guilt
and shame are the most uselessemotions in the world.
And he said to me, alison, theyare the most important emotions
(09:12):
and they're totally different.
And I said huh.
And so I listened to hisinterpretation.
I thought about what,everything that I knew and
thought and had this incredible,interesting awakening.
So my understanding of guiltI'll start with guilt right Is
you know, you feel guilty and itweighs you down and it consumes
you and you don't do anythingwith it.
(09:32):
And one of the things that hesaid is that he talked about how
guilt is something that we feelabout how we've treated another
person or what we have or wehaven't done.
It's about our actions, so it'soutward, focusing, whereas
shame is something that'sinternal.
It's about something that wefeel internally but we don't
actually do something about it.
(09:53):
I'll add, jewishly, that shameis something that we often
bestow upon others, like weshame someone or you're going to
bring shame upon your family orupon your people if you do this
.
So these are things that I thinkis really interesting and I
guess, looking at it Jewishlylike where does it come Jewishly
, because that's the rabbi partof me, so the Jewishly is, if
you take a look back in theTorah, you see you have, like
(10:14):
there's two different offerings.
I know you probably don't wantto hear it, it's not so exciting
, but there's the Hashemoffering and then there's a
Chetat offering.
There there's one that's a sinoffering and one that's a guilt
offering.
So one is something that you dounintentionally, like you mess
up, you hurt someone's feelings,you do something wrong but you
didn't mean to.
That's the chatat and the ashamis.
You know you did somethingwrong and you did it anyway,
(10:34):
right.
Both of them can lead to aninternal feeling of shame, right
, but Judaism focuses more onhow we respond to that and what
we do about it, not how we feelabout it.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
OK, before I throw to you, ralph, I just have to say
Rabbi Allison, you just saidthat shame and guilt are
completely useless emotions.
However, if Jews didn'texperience that or people didn't
experience that, you would beout of a job.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, I mean I could be apriest.
Maybe, you know, I don't know.
I think I changed my mind onthat.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
By the way, Ralph, anything to add?
Speaker 8 (11:07):
Most certainly, and it's actually the very opposite
of what you've just said.
I'm going to give you myguilt-edged version of it and I
think that we are predominantlywe are a guilt culture.
You know, the Catholics kind ofcompete with us for that
appellation, but I think wewould like to claim that we were
the first there.
But I think the Catholics kindof compete with us for that
appellation, but I think wewould like to claim that we were
the first there.
(11:27):
But I think we're more of aguilt culture than a shame
culture.
And I'll tell you why becausethe definition that I'm going to
take is one that comes fromRuth Benedict.
She was an anthropologist andshe was talking about Japanese
culture.
There's something that RabbiJonathan Sachs later picked up
on as well and she popularized.
She said there are two kinds ofsociety.
(11:49):
She says there's a guiltculture, and then there's the
shame culture, and ancientGreece, she said, like Japan,
was a shame culture and Judaismand the religions influenced by
it, most obviously Calvinismwere guilt cultures.
And so what's the differencebetween the two of them in this
definition Is that in shamecultures what matters is the
(12:12):
judgment of others.
Acting morally means conformingto a public role, rules and
expectations.
You do what other people expectyou to do.
You follow society'sconventions, and if you fail to
do so, society is going topunish you by subjecting you to
shame, ridicule, disapproval,humiliation, ostracism.
(12:35):
But guilt cultures.
And a guilt culture is whatmatters most is not what other
people think, but what the voiceof your conscience tells you.
It's not what other peoplethink, but what the voice of
your conscience tells you.
So living morally means livingaccording to internalized moral
imperatives.
You shall and you shall not.
So what matters is what youknow to be right and wrong.
(12:57):
So people in a shame cultureare other-directed.
They care about how they'regoing to look in the eyes of
others or what they would saytoday.
They care about their image.
And people in guilt culturesare more inner directed.
They care about what they knowabout themselves in moments of
absolute honesty.
So even if your public image isundamaged, if you know you've
(13:19):
done wrong, it's going to makeyou feel pretty uneasy.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Rabbi Allison, you mentioned before that, in
addition to being senior rabbi,you're also a practicing
psychologist as well, sointerested in how shame arises
in your therapeuticconversations with your Jewish
clients, and also with yourcongregants as well.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
And can you give us their names and addresses?
Speaker 7 (13:49):
OK, that wasn't one of the questions you asked me,
but it wasn't no tell me, that'sokay I can I?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
can know that before you go on, just a peek behind
the curtain is how dash and Iwork.
He does this all the time.
I have the questions out, thequestions are ready to go and at
the last minute he comes inthere with a fresh.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
No one's going to report you for any disclosures
of client details, but could yougive us some sense of?
We're particularly probablyinterested in your Jewish
clients and your Jewishcongregants, obviously.
Speaker 7 (14:16):
Yeah.
So I'm not going to tell youthat.
But what I will say is that alot of people come to me and say
, oh Rabbi, I feel guilty aboutthe fact that I haven't, you
know, observed Shabbat, or Ifeel guilty about the fact that
I swore, or I feel guilty aboutthe fact that I actually don't
believe in God.
And I'm like, do you reallyfeel guilty about it?
(14:36):
Because I don't think you do.
But you know, they feel like ifthey admit it and I do say you
know wrong religion.
But you know, because I thinkthey're comfortable.
And by saying it I feel likepeople feel like they appease
their guilt, absolve themselvesof their guilt.
So you know, I think thatthat's actually not what people
feel guilty about.
But to me that's actually notabout guilt or shame.
(14:59):
It's about a lack of connectionor an assumption that you're
supposed to do something thatyou're not doing.
And as a progressive Jew I saidwell, why do you feel that way?
Does that really situncomfortably with you?
Are you feeling somethingmissing?
Or how do you connect?
So for me that's actually noteven a conversation about guilt
or shame.
You know, for clients that come, whether they're Jewish or
they're not Jewish, it.
You know it manifests in inmany different ways, but I do
hope you ask me one of thequestions that you want to do
because I want to respond to oneof your comments about how it?
(15:21):
moves on.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Sorry, Tammy, the nudge is clearly necessary today
.
Probably this actually goesback to one of the things that
you said at the front, RabbiAllison, about the wanting to
understand.
Are there any positive aspectsto shame?
Because the way that Tammy hasframed this is that shame is
(15:50):
inherently negative and a badthing.
But if we think about theTalmud or rabbinic commentary,
where is shame used as ateaching moment, as an
opportunity for some positiveinsight and learning?
Let's start with you, RabbiRalph.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
I think that even though we've said, yes, we are
more of a guilt culture, westill are going to let shame in,
and shame is certainly.
There are times, in fact, whichI would say that even
halachically, traditionally,that there is a place for shame.
Maybe the example you knowthere are some sins, some things
that people do that is wrong,that I think it is important
(16:31):
that they acknowledge andarticulate the sense of shame.
So I think there are somethings that some people should
be ashamed of.
You know, in cases of sexualabuse, or we had the Royal
Commission into abuse, we've hadMalka Leifa, and I think that
is a place where shame is bothnecessary and maybe even
imperative that it be expressed,and I think, halakhically as
(16:53):
well, it would say that shame issometimes necessary.
You know, in some instances andanother example of where there's
a very kind of public shaming,if you like, from the Torah, is
with the mitzorah, with theperson becomes a leper, or it's
called leper, but they got thishorrible skin kind of condition.
It was like wow, everyone couldsee that you have been doing
(17:14):
something wrong because it'sexpressed.
The Torah puts it expressed onyour skin or, even worse, your
house starts showing signs ofthis contamination, which was a
moral contamination.
So I think that was the Torah'sacknowledgement that there is a
necessity sometimes for shame.
I think that it is terriblyabused today and you may want to
ask about that.
(17:34):
I think the way that shame isbeing used in our cancel kind of
culture I think is incrediblynegative and abusive form of
shame.
But I do think that there is alegitimate and a positive source
of shame.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
So I disagree with you.
I think shame is horrific.
I think that shame is look,just what we read in the Parshat
yesterday.
You know, when you talk aboutthe sotai, you talk about the
adulterous woman.
It's this you know, the husbandhas this jealous fit and he
subjects this woman, his wife,to this horrible public kind of
procedure.
(18:06):
Whether she's guilty or not ofcommitting adultery is
irrelevant.
I mean it's irrelevant.
There's a punishment and aconsequence, but regardless,
she's shamed.
Whether she's proven innocentor not, she is shamed through
the process and that is a stainon her being right.
The fact that people feel soashamed of what's happening in
(18:26):
their home that they can'tpublicly go out and share what's
happening.
For the sake, Shlombayit, godforbid.
We bring shame upon our house,our husband, our wife, our
community, so we hold it in.
I think it is a b'shayt.
It's shameful that we use shameas an excuse and as an
apologetic for terrible behavior, though I think that where I do
agree with you, I just I woulduse it.
(18:48):
You know, when you talk aboutMalka Laifa, you talk about
people that do shameful acts,that do horrible acts.
If people like bask in theirshame, they don't move forward.
Right, you have to feel bad.
A chuvah process you have to.
You know, you have to recognizeyou did something wrong.
You feel bad.
But if you just feel ashamed oh, I'm a bad person, woe is me,
woe is me what do you do?
Nothing.
You just sit there and you justfeel sorry for yourself.
(19:08):
You're a terrible person.
But if you transform that I dida wrong thing, I did something
bad, now I'm going to turn thisinto action Then you feel guilty
about how badly you did this.
Now I have to change it right.
That's where the chuvah processworks.
So I think that that's reallyimportant and I think that
people often confuse.
You know you talk about whatare the key learnings?
I wrote down key learnings,right.
What are the things that that Ithink that people tend to place
(19:30):
shame and this is where I agreewith you earlier that people
put shame upon others.
Right, we place shame uponothers, but the beautiful thing
is that we don't have to acceptit.
Someone may think thatsomething we do is shameful the
way we dress or the way we act,the way things we say oh my God,
you shouldn't do that.
That's shameful, maybe.
Maybe I think so, maybe not,you know.
Maybe I recognize it and changeit right.
But it's important to bedistinguished between shame and
(19:54):
embarrassment, you know, andhumiliation, and you know, and
making excuses for the behaviors.
So I have more, but I'm sureyou have other things to say.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Thank you.
And for those of you watchingor for those listening who
aren't here, I keep doing anexcited like yes motion every
time Rabbi Ralph and RabbiAllison disagree, and that's for
two reasons One, becauseconflict is great for podcast
ratings and two, because it'sjust in this day and age.
(20:21):
It is so refreshing and amazingto see two people respectfully
disagree and no one's stormingout of the room.
Isn't that so lovely?
Yes, thank you.
Thank you, rabbi Allison.
I'm really glad that youbrought up the example of the
woman being shamed, which tiesinto gender roles and also
(20:46):
sexuality, because my nextquestion is as follows Do you
think shame has historicallybeen used to control behaviour
around gender, sexuality orfamily roles in Judaism, and is
that changing?
And before you answer that,actually no, you answer first,
(21:08):
and then I'll give an examplefrom a core memory from high
school at Moriah College.
I am from Sydney.
Did I mention that ConflictGood for the podcast?
Speaker 7 (21:23):
All right.
Well, I have a bunch of thingsand a bunch of quotes to say
which is interesting.
Yes, I think absolutely.
There's lots of things in ourtradition and aspects that
aren't designed to bring shamebut, I think, inadvertently
bring shame upon people.
I think perhaps the initialintent wasn't shameful, but the
impact is now shameful.
So snewt, in general, right,it's designed to show respect
(21:46):
for your body, respect for yourrelationship.
What's snewt oh sorry, snewt ismodesty.
It's about the way that youdress and the way you cover
yourself or how you carryyourself in different ways.
So there's specific rules inour tradition for both men and
women, but mostly for women.
And you know, in terms of howyou dress and how you behave.
And if you do it in anon-sniwet type way, then people
(22:06):
feel shameful.
You know, like it's the modernday way of saying, oh well, she
dressed like that, so shedeserved to be raped.
Not that our tradition goesthat way, but for me as a
progressive Jew, it feels someway.
There's also so many laws aboutwhat a woman can and can't do
and about how she has to go toher father or her husband to get
permission to do things, whichis really demeaning, as if a
(22:28):
woman doesn't have a right onher own.
And again, looking at wheresome of the rules were there,
they were designed to protectthe woman, but now, if they're
kept in such a way, it inhibitsand it traps the women.
So these are just a few of myfavorite quotes.
Because of the talkative natureof women, the Torah gave bitter
waters.
So we're punished because we'retalkative.
There are three types of peoplewhose talk is not to be
(22:50):
believed those who play dice,people whose talk is not to be
believed, those who play dice,those who lend with interest,
and women.
Women are light-minded.
This is all from the Talmud.
Right now, a woman is more proneto gossip than the man.
Ten curses were given to Eve,including that she speaks much
and keeps nothing in her heart.
It is forbidden for a woman toraise her voice in song before
(23:13):
men.
A woman should not leave herhouse too frequently.
Her husband may prevent herfrom doing so.
And, of course, one of myfavorite ones that you might say
every day, but I certainlydon't, is thank you, god, for
not making me a woman.
So my husband recognizes thatevery time I complain about
womanly issues.
But you know, that being said,there are a lot of things that I
do think hold back women.
(23:33):
I know you want me to stop, butI have to say one last thing.
I don't want you to ever stop.
All right, good, because Imight not be aware of that, but
just one thing that I just want.
Just story in the Torah that Iwant to say that is just
profoundly transformational forme is the story of Judah and
Tamar, right?
So the story of Judah and Tamaris a story where there's this
weird biblical thing that if ahusband dies, leaving his wife
(23:56):
childless, she is to marry hisnearest relative and the first
child they have is in the nameof the deceased husband.
Slightly gross but slightlybeautiful all at the same time,
but you know, to try to keep thememory alive.
That being said, tamar'shusband died and there was no
real living relative that wasavailable.
So she wanted to honor thattradition and honor her husband,
(24:17):
but her father-in-law kept kindof keeping the youngest brother
from her.
Anyway, long story short, she,dressed up as a harlot, seduces
her father-in-law, gets pregnantand then people shame her, say,
oh, my goodness, look at her,she's such a slut.
She went around.
You know she's pregnant and she, you know she's dishonoring her
husband blah blah blah.
But she was a smart woman.
(24:37):
What did she do?
She dressed as a harlot.
Her father-in-law didn't haveanything Said here.
I'll give you, you know, mycloak and my staff and you know,
and I'll pay you back later.
And he shame him publicly.
What she said was whoever thesebelong to is the father of my
child.
And then Judah, who could haveshamed her?
(24:58):
He could have denied it, hecould have lied, but he didn't.
He actually instead said youknow what?
She is more righteous than I amand she did the right thing by
the tradition, you know.
And they all lived happily everafter.
But from that story, despiteall the weird layers of you know
, we won't go there.
What I find from this story isthat something that could be
considered shameful.
If you take responsibility forthe wrong you do or you keep
(25:21):
your eye on your integrity ofwhat's right, then, if you own
it, you can take something thatcould be shameful and make it
into a learning opportunity.
So that's what I want to share.
Speaker 8 (25:30):
So first of all, I've got to disagree with some of
the things you said.
What I want to share.
So, first of all, I've got todisagree with some of the things
you said, and I'm certainly oneof those who have spoken and
written about the fact thatwomen have been demeaned and
excluded a lot in our tradition.
But at the same time I thinkthat the quotes I would say
you're cherry picking them andthat we can find that, but we
(25:52):
can also find other quotes whichdo not subscribe to that Also.
That's a kind of a Talmudicview.
Eliezer Berkowitz, some of youmay know a rabbi, philosopher,
who lived here in Sydney for awhile.
He was a rabbi in Sydney at thecentral synagogue there, but
he's written a book alsospeaking about how the attitudes
, even biblically andTalmudically, change towards
women and that we don't, yes,even biblically and Talmudically
(26:14):
, change towards women and thatwe don't, yes, some of the
Talmudic rabbis were classicgreat misogynists, but you know
a lot of us.
So that's why we agree, yes,but there was a change, has been
a change in attitude and Ithink that, yes, you know it's
also when you've got to look atwhich communities, sort of in
the ultra-Orthodox communities,there is still that kind of
(26:46):
perception not all of them, butin a lot of them, in the Haredi
community of one particular guy.
He's studying in the SatnaYeshiva but he got interested in
the Chabad philosophy and thoseguys there they like to shame
each other, by the way, they seeeach other as opponents and he
was kicked out and shamed at theSatna Yeshiva because he was
(27:07):
caught with a copy of the Tanyathe Chabad handbook, as we know
so well here in Australia.
So there is certain withinultra-Orthodox communities more
than kind of the community thatI come from, which would be the
more modern Orthodox kind ofcommunities there is still that
very strong shaming and I thinkparticularly women are exposed
to it.
(27:28):
But I think things arehopefully changing because it's
been exclusion withinOrthodoxodoxy and in certain
parts of orthodoxy, still verystrong exclusionary things
towards women, towards LGBT,towards anyone who maybe
expresses views that arecontrary to what is the
conforming position.
(27:48):
So that still exists.
But I like to think that it ischanging in certain circles and
that there is, instead oflooking at, you know the kind of
orthodoxy had this, you knowwho can we leave out, you know
it was very exclusionary and youcan't come in and you're not
allowed and I always, you know,sort of said you know, can we
stop with who we're excludingand look for a change in who we
(28:09):
can include, and that we are avery big tent as well.
One of the things I wrote aboutin my book is the difference
between the Ark of Noah, the Arkof Noah and the tent of Avraham
.
Because Noah is an insular, youclose yourself up in the Ark.
You don't want to see the wavesout there, you don't want to
see what's happening to peopleout there, whereas Avraham and
(28:29):
Sarah open themselves.
It's an open tent and sayingwho can we invite in?
And let's invite everyone in,and that's why at a chuppah, by
the way, that's one of theexplanations why a chuppah is
completely open.
Let's be open to the worldinstead of closed off to it.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Dash and I were discussing this question in the
green room and I said perhaps astory where this came up in my
own life was in high school.
I went to Moriah College inSydney Jewish modern orthodox
school and one of my corememories and my friend's core
memories is one night at thiscamp, which is a how do we
(29:06):
describe Counterpoint?
We had a volunteer here whowhat's your name?
Danielle, and Danielle, can youexplain what is counterpoint?
Camp brainwashing and jewishindoctrination okay for students
, students in year 9 to 11, atthe range of jewish schools just
past its 50th year since it wasfirst brought out to australia
(29:26):
in 1974 it came for the firsttime.
okay, a generous reading wouldsay that Counterpoint is a camp
to encourage and inspire Jewishchildren to have a love of their
faith or their culture.
We can hold both those truthsat once.
And one of the evenings I wasin year 11 and we were promised
the girls were promised anevening with a woman who was
(29:52):
going to teach us how to havegood sex, and I was so excited.
I was like, finally someone'sgoing to talk to me about it.
We went into a room with thiswoman and this woman sat us down
and said in order to have goodsex, it needs to be with your
husband and you need to have nothad sex with anyone else before
(30:16):
that, because if you do, theninto that bed you are not just
bringing your husband, butyou're bringing all the men that
you've slept with before andall those experiences.
So, to take a leaf out of yourbook, rabbi Allison, you said
that we should turn these intolearning experiences.
(30:36):
What can we learn?
I'm going to ask anyone in theaudience.
What can we learn?
Anyone?
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Not everything you get told at school is correct.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Good on you.
Thank you for that good on you.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Thank you for that.
In a moment we're going to openit up to the floor and we're
going to give you theopportunity to ask some further
questions of rabbi allison andrabbi ralph about the question
of shame in judaism, or we'regonna have a little bit of fun.
We're gonna see how this goes.
We're gonna play the wild card,and the wild card is what's
something that you're deeplyshamed of, or maybe just a
(31:19):
little bit ashamed of, thatyou'd like to share with a rabbi
and the rest of the ashamed toadmit world and those in the
room here today.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Whoever's brave enough to share something that
they're ashamed to admit willget some merch.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
We've got some TJI merch which we'll be happy to
gift to you after we finishtoday.
So just have a think about that, marinate on that question for
a moment, and I think let's havesome fun in the remaining time
that we've got.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
It can be a big question, like a big something
that you're deeply ashamed toadmit, or something like small,
like I didn't pay for a ticketto Limord and I snuck in here
today.
Okay, we won't tell anyone.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So I'm going to go off script again, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I will allow it.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Possibly not going to annoy Rabbi Ralph, because I
consider Ralph a bit of a mentorand I've kind of.
I think maybe I've granted theability to ask this question.
So, ralph, I'm aware thatthroughout your years as a
rabbinical leader and someonewho is, let's say, pushes the
(32:26):
envelope a little bit withinorthodoxy, you've been a strong
advocate for the place of LGBTIplus congregants.
You've also you have, I thinkfor a long time pushed things
with regard to the place ofwomen within Orthodox
congregations as well, althoughI'm sure there were some say you
didn't push it far enough.
(32:46):
But anyway, the point is thatyou have been someone that has
pushed some of these questions.
Am I right in thinking that youhave experienced shame from
your Orthodox colleagues andfrom the larger structure, of
which I won't name, thatoversees Orthodoxy in Australia?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
We want names and addresses.
Speaker 8 (33:11):
Well, I write about it in the book so it's out there
.
But yes, I think probably oneof the most pointed images or
reflections I have of that waswhen in the early days and I do
think that in the early dayswhen I was still rabbi at Mount
Scopus in Beit Ha'aron, weintroduced then which was seen
(33:31):
and it seems almost ridiculousto think about it today, but we
just introduced the fact thatwomen could carry the Torah in
an Orthodox congregation duringthe Shabbat service.
You know, we passed the Torahto women and I was hauled.
I was a young rabbi, I justarrived, hadn't been long in
Melbourne and I was part of theRabbinical Council Victoria, and
(33:54):
they called me to theInquisition and it really felt
like the Inquisition becausethey just lined up there and I
came into this room, daniel inthe lion's den, kind of felt
like it and it was.
You know what you're doing andbecause it had been reported in
the Jewish news, what you'redoing, you know it's not right
and it is shameful and how canyou do it.
(34:15):
And then it was carried on at arabbinic conference where one
leading rabbi at the time saidthis little rebeler, which was
quite clever, but at the time itreally felt like a public
shaming there in front of allthe other rabbis.
You know this little rebel anda rebel you know what does he
know?
Anyway, it actually still getsto me.
(34:36):
So I think part of it is as yousay.
You talk about the stain ofshame and that it's really hard
to rub that out.
Would you say you grew from it,though?
Oh, most definitely.
Yeah, I think I just grew morebolshie and you know that kind
of thing just brought it out,and we, you know, stood by it,
and I had some good friends whocertainly supported me in that.
(34:57):
A lot of you would know them.
It was both Mark and JohnnyBaker.
You know Mark loved this kindof thing, you know, come on,
show them, ralph and reallysupported me and helped me find
my voice and give me the courageto express my voice.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Rabbi Ralph, in a lot of communities, taking words
that are originally used todegrade or demean you and
reclaiming them as your own canoften help overcome that shame.
So are you ready to have at-shirt that just says Rebela on
it?
Because if so, I make merch andI would be happy to do that.
(35:31):
Would you wear it?
Speaker 8 (35:33):
I think so.
I mean I like your one.
So as long as we can justmerchandise, we can give a
special price to those who arehere.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Whoever tells us the most the juiciest, chewiest,
shameful thing this afternoon,we'll get a Rebella t-shirt.
Okay.
Rebella with a cause.
Speaker 8 (35:52):
Someone just said yes , thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Fantastic.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
So, look, we've got 15 minutes left to go.
Don't be shy.
Really keen to hear what yourshames are.
Or if anything that we've justbeen prodding Rabbi Ralph and
Rabbi Alison about has provokedyou into a question or a thought
, share it with us.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Hello Karen.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
Hello, I'd first like to say I like the way Rabbi
Ralph is shamelessly plugginghis book.
You picked that up.
I'd like to ask both for abonium.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ithink one of the techniques to
get recalcitrant husbands togive their wife a get would be
shame.
Is that correct and does it?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
work.
Can you also explain what theget is?
Speaker 7 (36:41):
Well, briefly, because it's more of an issue
for you, but the get is a Jewishdivorce and in our community if
a woman is of childbearing age,then we actually send them all
to the Orthodox.
Because if she decides shedoesn't want, if she doesn't get
a get from her husband who hasto give her this legal bill of
divorce, then if she were everto get married and have children
(37:01):
, that child will have a statusthat cannot be actually undone.
There's nothing we can do toundo that status.
So it's a really, even thoughwe think it's ridiculous, it
actually can't be undone.
And if the child grows up anddecides they want to be orthodox
, they want to marry someone andlive an observant lifestyle,
they'll have a hard time.
So it is something that is aproblem.
But if they decide they don'twant to do it, the husband
doesn't want to do it and theydon't care one way or another,
(37:22):
we'll still marry them, like westill will.
Not in the progressive movementwon't require it.
So again, is that shamingsomeone?
And again, you can talk aboutsome of the things.
I know there's some prettyinteresting things that people
do, whether it's shaming,whether it's embarrassing or
whether it's calling out.
Again, I don't think thatthey're shaming the person.
They're calling them out forvarious things, and whether or
(37:43):
not that person chooses to feelshame for their actions is a
different story.
So I don't know that we canshame someone if someone doesn't
accept that and see it as ashameful act.
Speaker 8 (37:53):
Thanks for that, alison.
I think it is one of theelements of Jewish law and
halakha that is a shameful onethat we have not found a way of
liberating women from that awfulcondition of where the man
refuses to give the get and theytherefore can never marry
somebody in orthodox, or if theygo and marry someone else, then
(38:14):
their children are damned andall sorts of things.
And I think it is something thatI really agree with Blue
Greenberg saying you know, wherethere's a rabbinic world,
there's a halachic way, and Ireally believe that it is
something that we failure oforthodoxy on all levels, and
there have been people who havesuggested solutions and options
which have not been accepted.
In this case, whether we call itshaming and it has been done,
(38:36):
and it is done in orthodoxcommunities, if there's a man
known to be refusing, arecalcitrant husband, refusing
to give his wife the gift, thenI know that I say as well I
don't think that person, thatman, should be allowed to belong
to this.
She'll never mind have aposition of honor or even called
up to the Torah, because whathe is doing is something which
(38:58):
is so egregious it should not beallowed.
And so I do think that therepublicly, and even publishing
his name, as is done in someplaces, whether it's in the
local Jewish, the Jewish newsyou can put an advert in in the
Jewish news or whether it's evenin the community.
I do think that that is a casewhere, hopefully, and it has
worked on some occasions,whether it's through the
(39:19):
embarrassment of Yom Kippur, orthat it has been because very
often those men presentthemselves in public as being
these wonderful communityfigures, when what they're doing
is so dastardly.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I think forget about the Australian Jewish news.
They should have a billboardoutside Yumi's Kosher Seafood in
Riponley, because that's whereeveryone's looking right.
Any other questions?
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Tammy, big fan, thank you.
My question sort of leads onfrom that and I guess is there a
role for people who perhapsdon't feel guilt and engage in
like repeated problematicbehaviour In the case of an
adulterer maybe they're a serialadulterer Is there a role that
(40:07):
shame plays in perhaps gettingthem to stop that behaviour?
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Good question.
Speaker 8 (40:14):
I can think of an example.
There was a very well-knownrabbi in South Africa who was a
recidivist adulterer, serialadulterer, and his behaviour was
only stopped when it waspublicised and in a sense I
think there it was the actualpublic shame which led to
(40:34):
cessation, stopping that kind ofactivity.
So I think it did work.
I'm not sure if it will alwayswork and you can probably
comment from your experience,particularly in the psychology
field.
Speaker 7 (40:44):
Yeah, so I feel like I have a more psychology answer
to that, because it is somethingthat I deal with on a regular
basis.
So, again, what?
Again, you know what causesthat behavior.
You know what generates thatbehavior.
Is it a disrespect for thepartner?
Is it a lack of psychology?
Call it theory of mind,understanding something from
someone else's perspective, likeactually understanding.
Is there an issue of lack ofempathy?
(41:05):
Is there a splitting in theirmind between what they're doing
and how it impacts somebody?
Is it an OCD Like?
Is it literally an obsession,you know, is it something that
they actually can't control?
Is there something you knowcompulsive nature to it?
So you know, for me, someonethat is a compulsive adulterer,
there's something else going onbeyond it, that it's not just a
matter of sitting down and youknow, and talking to your rabbi,
(41:27):
or even shaming them.
It might it temporarily, but ifthere's something else
underneath it, that's somethingelse underneath that needs to be
addressed.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
What's amazing, Ralph , is that that community came
together and believed whoeverwas saying that this person is
committing these acts.
I know that it's quitedifficult sometimes to believe,
particularly the women who aresaying that this behaviour is
Well.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
if he made his way around the entire Johannesburg
community, then there's everychance everyone knew what he was
up to.
We had another question.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
And what is his name and address?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
And hello to our South African listeners.
Great to have you with us.
Speaker 6 (42:05):
Mine's not a question , a much less juicy admission,
but as a long-time listener anda big fan, I think you'll relate
to this one, Tammy.
Until earlier this year I'mashamed to admit I couldn't ride
a bicycle welcome to the cluband I have now had lessons as an
adult, with lots offive-year-olds having their own
(42:26):
lessons wow you're doing betterthan Tammy, we might might add,
because you still can't ride,can you?
Speaker 1 (42:38):
I can ride, just not well.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
Just going back to the conversation we were having,
is it the decent Jewish thingto do to shame somebody into
behaving better?
Speaker 8 (42:51):
It's not the first response, no, and I think that
shaming and embarrassing there'sa whole set of rules about, and
saying one of the worst thingsyou can do is to embarrass the
person in public it says yes,it's like actually killing them.
So I would think it issomething kind of those last
resorts only when you have triedevery other possible way
(43:13):
perhaps to stop the behaviorwhich is damaging and harmful to
them and to others.
I think then only, and, as Isay, that's why we prefer guilt
to shame.
Speaker 7 (43:23):
But I'm going to reframe and use neither of those
words because I don't see it asguilt or shame, because I think
we I think we should never justlike you, should never hit a
child, you should never shameanother human, human being.
There's no excuse for that.
But by calling out somebody orsaying and not letting them,
that's a consequence for them.
That's not shaming them.
You're not allowed to be amember of the synagogue.
We're not going to call you foran aliyah.
We're not going to take yournumber.
(43:44):
We're going to announce topeople what you do.
To me it's a consequence.
Just be aware, because I'mthinking any other women out
there if you know that this guyhasn't divorced his wife, you
stay far away.
I'm not shaming him.
I'm just actually doing my.
You know my civil duty, mypublic diligence, to be able to
inform people what you do.
So to me it's like are youpurposely doing this to make
(44:05):
them feel shame and awful andhorrible, or are you doing it
because you want them to changetheir behavior?
So I just, to me it's a reframein your mind, even though the
impact may be the same ordifferent.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
So I've always thought that there's two kinds
of shame.
There's shame and there'sirrational shame.
And the way I see it is thatour community is changing and
what would have been shameful inthe 70s like I had divorced
parents that was something thatwas shameful.
Then, of course, when mychildren decided not to marry
(44:41):
Jews, I felt a certain shameabout it.
These come under the heading ofwhat I call irrational shame.
Do you understand thedifference?
And now I've got something.
It's happening in the communityall the time and I'm going to
tell you guys because it'sirrational shame, but one of my
children has decided she doesn'twant anything to do with us
anymore and it's been nine yearsof estrangement from her.
So I'm telling you now becauseI'm not going to feel irrational
(45:07):
shame about it Just a question.
Speaker 9 (45:12):
In the Catholic Church, I think there's this
idea of confessional where youcan go to an equivalent priest
and ask for forgiveness for sins.
Speaker 8 (45:25):
Is there something equivalent in the Jewish
religion?
Oh, we love confession as well.
Go to shul on Yom Kippur.
Al-kheit, al-kheit, al-kheit.
It is the Al-Kheit and theashamnu bagadnu.
It's a collective kind ofconfession, and it's felt that
you know, if you're notspecifying who, you don't go
down the list and the soul andfor the process of tshuva, which
Alison mentioned before.
(45:45):
And coming back to what yousaid is that we believe in
tshuva and the persons.
Most people have that capacityto change.
(46:06):
I think, though, that I justwant to mention I mean, we
haven't spoken about that youknow, there's the shaming
culture of today, which so manypeople in our community, over
the last 18 months, for example,have been exposed to, and that
kind of canceling that kind ofshame is something which I think
is not acceptable in any Jewishforum, never mind a moral forum
(46:27):
.
Speaker 7 (46:28):
Can I just also say there's also a caveat on Yom
Kippur, but also every night yougo to slate, there's a
traditional like you know,forgive me for the wrongs that
I've done during the day.
So it's trying to go into bedwith a clean conscious.
But the other thing that ourtradition says, which I think is
brilliant, is that you can't dosomething wrong knowing that
it's wrong and knowing thatyou're going to ask for
(46:49):
forgiveness, that there is aconstant.
You don't have to wait for theend of the year, you don't have
to go through somebody else toget forgiveness.
It's something that you'resupposed to be constantly, every
day.
Have I lived the way I wantedto do?
Have I acted the way?
It's just like?
It's like a mirror to reflect,which I think is a beautiful
thing.
But I want to jump on whatyou've.
(47:14):
We talk about it.
We publicize the fact that it'shappening to jews, yada, yada,
yada.
What we don't talk about and Ithink is shameful even though I
said we should there's no suchthing.
But you know, what I think is alike is is really horrific is
that when people disagree andthey have different points of
views, that they get shamed,that jews that don't feel, you
know, know that if they want tocriticize Israel or they do, or
they think Israel is doingeverything, that's great.
(47:35):
Either way, I don't care, youknow.
But like they can't actuallysit together without feeling
ashamed that they don't feelsafe in the space.
And two things happened in thelast few weeks.
One is in Israel.
There was a reformedcongregation.
They were showing a film thattalked about Palestinian and
Israeli suffering andreconciliation and their
synagogue was stoned by Jewishpeople and people were hurt.
(47:55):
That happened.
And then recently there is areformed rabbi in Paris who was
getting death threats from theJewish community because she
criticized something that Israelis doing.
Now I don't really care, andI've said this at my synagogue.
Like what everyone's politicsare, you know, you can be
whatever, I don't care, right,left, whatever, it doesn't
matter.
Like, if you're going todisagree, disagree respectfully,
don't cancel another Jew.
(48:16):
There's enough people out therethat are doing that to us.
To me that is the biggest shamethat that I have people coming
to me saying I want to feel safein the Jewish community, but I
don't feel like I have a spaceto to give my voice.
Whether I agree or disagreewith them is irrelevant.
There needs to be a space thatwe can safely and respectfully
disagree.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Thank you.
I know that Rabbi Ralph hasbeen a mentor of yours, dash,
for quite some time.
Rabbi Allison, we've just met,but you're my mentor now, so
before you go, we need to readthe outro.
I need two volunteers Katia,come on down, and someone I
(48:56):
haven't heard from today.
Hello, katja Ariel is in theaudience today.
She released a book this week.
Speaker 5 (49:06):
The book is called.
It's called Ferryman, the Lifeand Death Work of Ephraim Finch
called.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Ferryman, the Life and Death Work of Ephraim Finch,
and Katja hasn't officiallybeen invited on the podcast, but
she will be.
Speaker 10 (49:23):
And PJ you have been listening to.
A Shame to Admit, withMelbourne's favourite Jewish
adjacent mensch, dash Lawrence,and Sydney's own
state-of-the-art sprinter, TammySussman.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Jonathan Jenks.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
If you like the podcast, forward it to your
therapist.
Ask them if it counts as selfcare.
Speaker 10 (49:46):
If you need to move some money around before the end
of financial year, consider me,consider sponsoring future
episodes of this show or postcash to Tammy at.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
As always.
Thanks for your support andlook out for Dash and Tammy next
week.
Thank you.
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