April 21, 2025 • 49 mins
Are you interested in how Jewish Australians are approaching the upcoming federal election? If you answered YES, then this is the episode for you.
Join Tami, Dash, (former advisor to Anthony Albanese) Dean Sherr and (former advisor to Malcolm Turnbull) Jack Pinczewski as they have a go at cutting through some seriously chewy and Jewy election topics.
For more visit The Jewish Independent
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey Dash.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hi Tammy.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Dash, aren't you meant to be getting ready for
your overseas trip?
You told our listeners lastepisode that you'd be away for a
few weeks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I still intend to be away for a few weeks.
But yes, look, I just couldn'tresist one last episode because
I managed to secure two peoplethat I've been wanting to talk
to in the lead-in to theupcoming federal election.
I managed to get the formeradvisors to Anthony Albanese and
(00:35):
Malcolm Turnbull, two youngJewish men, to agree to an
interview, and we felt it wouldbe worthwhile bringing, to our
Shame to Admit listeners theJewish Labor and the Jewish
Liberal position ahead of thefederal election on the 3rd of
May.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Dash, you got your democracy sausage ready.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I do yes, with onions on top.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Great, let's get to it.
Let's get to it.
Are you interested in howJewish Australians are
approaching the upcoming federalelection?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
If you answered yes, then you might be too ashamed to
ask.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewyelection topics.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Dean Sher Jack Pinczewski.
Thank you so much for joiningus in the Ashamed to Admit
studio.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's a pleasure to be here, thank you.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Dean.
Jack, with the federal electionjust a few weeks away on
Saturday, May the 3rd, we wantedto bring two distinct Jewish
perspectives on Australianpolitics a shame, to admit.
Just to kind of help set thecontext for the conversation,
(02:19):
Dean, can you start by giving abit of an overview on your
political background andexperience?
And then, Jack, I'm interestedto hear more about your story.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Sure.
So I got involved in politicsbasically straight out of high
school.
I did a you could call it aninternship, I suppose in Michael
Damby's office when I was inyear 11.
I went up to Canberra for asitting week and volunteered in
his office for a bit, and then Igot a part-time job out of high
school.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Sorry, Dan, I'm just going to interrupt for our
international listeners.
Michael Danby, the erstwhileMichael Danby, longtime member,
Labor member of parliament andardent supporter of the state of
Israel, former member ofparliament in the seat of
McNamara and Melbourne Ports,which takes in largest chunk of
Australia's, of Melbourne'sJewish community.
Sorry, back over to you.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
No, please, yes, yeah .
So I worked for Michael sort ofon and off while I was at
university.
While I was studying, mostlypart-time.
I did a stint full-time in the2016 campaign.
I worked together with JoshBurns in Michael's office for a
year, which Josh for theinternational listeners, Josh
(03:35):
went on to succeed Michael asthe Labor candidate and then MP
for the seat when it was renamedfrom Melbourne Ports to
McNamara.
I then worked for a state MP,Philip Dalladakis, when he was a
minister in the Victoriangovernment for a couple of years
, and then I went off to runJosh Burns' first campaign.
I worked for him for the firstterm that he served, from 2019
(03:57):
to 2022.
We got him re-elected a bitmore narrowly in 2022.
And then Labor came into powerand I got a job in Prime
Minister Anthony Albanese'soffice, so I was a media advisor
in his team for a little bitover a year.
I was living in Canberra but Iwas between two cities.
I had a home in Melbourne and apartner at the time living in
(04:20):
Melbourne, and so I made adecision that it was time for a
change and time to rebalance mywork life.
So there was some life and notall work, so that was the sort
of personal reason to come backand I joined the sort of
consulting world which is afamiliar way for political
staffers to re-utilise theirlimited skills and experience.
(04:42):
Yeah, so I've been involved inLabor since I was 18, pretty
much, and I'm now 32.
So it feels like a lifetime.
I remember the first branchmeeting I think one of the first
branch meetings I went to whenI joined the party, which was in
the years of the Gillardgovernment, and there were then
tensions with the Jewishcommunity.
Foreign Minister Bob Carr waspressing Julia Gillard.
(05:05):
Julia was a strong supporter ofIsrael but there were others in
the caucus and the government,especially the foreign minister,
who wanted to sort of changeforeign policy and so the Jewish
community was upset about someof those shifts and Labor was
sort of tearing itself apart ingovernment at that time.
Anyway, the leadership tensionsbetween Kevin Rudd and Julia
Gillard and one of the moreexperienced branch members in
(05:28):
the Caulfield branch of theLabor Party, which you can
imagine is a pretty Jewishbranch, said to me well, gee, if
you're joining the Labor Partynow, you'll last the distance
and I suppose a lot of theproblems that he was alluding to
at the time, especially in theJewish community, probably pale
in significance or in comparisonto the tensions that exist
(05:49):
today.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Absolutely, jack.
For some people it might besurprising to learn that the
Labor Party has been the naturalhome historically for most
Australian Jews.
Certainly in the middle toperhaps latter part of the 20th
century.
Times have changed very muchsince then.
I'm interested what was yourdraw and attraction to the
(06:11):
Liberal Party and tell us alittle bit about your experience
as a political insider.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
So I'm a Sydney Jewish man born and bred.
I left home to head down tostudy at the Australian National
University.
While I was there I met anawful lot of people who are
involved in politics.
It's just easier to be involvedin formalized politics when you
are down in the nation'scapital, and some of these
(06:38):
people also ran the JewishStudent Society.
It had fallen into abeyance bythe time I'd arrived there, but
I'd sort of gone to these people.
Oddly enough, a lot ofpolitical characters helped run
it and I restarted the JewishStudent Society there at ANU.
After a chance meeting with theIsraeli embassy there, I was
offered a job and startedworking for the Israeli embassy
(06:59):
down in Canberra.
I did that for two years withYuval Rotem, who is probably
familiar to some of yourlisteners Australian listeners
as the former ambassador toAustralia, but some of your
international listeners mightknow him as the immediate past
head of the Ministry of ForeignAffairs in Israel.
So I got a great politicalinternship in that respect.
After university I came back upto Sydney and found a job with
(07:24):
a consultancy which wasn'treally motivating me
intellectually and an offer cameup to work with Malcolm
Turnbull.
I joined the Liberal Partyprior to starting with Malcolm
Turnbull because of anunderstanding that I'll come to
later.
But the point is, I always knewthat the most important thing
you can do in a democracy is bepolitically active and engage in
politics.
(07:44):
In a democracy is bepolitically active and engage in
politics.
The Liberal Party sort ofappeared to me to be
simultaneously both morepredisposed to my interests and
my concerns.
So the priorities that I hadand I felt that this would be a
natural way, a natural home forme to have politically.
I started working for MalcolmTurnbull in the beginning of
(08:06):
2013 and stayed with him untilAugust 2018, when things sort of
came to a screeching haltInside Malcolm's office.
I did a variety of things.
I was running the electorateoffice eventually, I worked in
his media team.
I worked in his internationaland national security team
Nothing senior, I should add.
When that came to a halt, Itraveled for six months and then
(08:26):
went to state politics where Iworked for the leader of the
government in the state upperhouse here in New South Wales
and did that for a couple ofyears.
And now I work for aninternational financial
technology firm.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Dean, let's bring the conversation to recent times
and to the current politicalclimate.
You've told me about some ofthe challenges you faced, being
both Jewish and a Labor Partymember and activist.
What specific tensions have youexperienced since October 7th?
(09:03):
Have you experienced sinceOctober 7th and tell us how have
you gone, maintaining yourcommitment to the Labor Party
but also being a member of aJewish community, when we know
that many Jewish people andcertainly Jewish organisations
and leaders have been furiouswith the Labor Party and with
(09:25):
the Prime Minister really sinceOctober, the 7th 2023.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
The tension between the Jewish community and the
current Labor government isreally intense and, you know, I
think, certainly from the voicesthat come out the loudest, it's
a very strong anger and I think, like you feel it on a personal
level.
I think about, like, differentwars gone past and the ways in
(09:53):
which we engage them.
And you know, the way of theworld right now is like we live
everything throughout Instagramfeeds, right, but like I think
you just see, like friends andfamily sharing stories all the
time about how angry they are atLabor and the government and
you know, sometimes it's thingsthat are that are reasonable
concerns and other times it'sseeing people saying, oh, you
(10:15):
know, labor's abandoned Israel.
Anthony Albanese hates Israel,he's an anti-Semite.
You know, like I worked forAnthony Albanese, I know him.
I don't think he is ananti-Semite.
You know, like I worked forAnthony Albanese, I know him, I
don't think he is an anti-Semite.
But certainly, you know, thecommunity has been looking for
reassurance and support in a waythat they felt they haven't
(10:36):
gotten it, and the oppositionhas offered what a lot of people
want, which is that sort ofunwavering support, that
elevating the issues ofanti-Semitism and support for
Israel to the sort of dailypolitical cycle and I've written
a few articles for the JewishIndependent about it and I've
(10:56):
always been careful that, like Idon't want to be someone who
says just, you're wrong andyou're wrong to think this or
feel this way, because the waythat the Australian Jewish
community feels is verylegitimate, given the
experiences that we've all gonethrough since October 7.
But I think for me, like it'simportant not to lose sight of,
(11:17):
like I have a lot of friends whoI met in my oldest days through
the World Union of JewishStudents, like who were student
leaders at the time in you knowEurope, in the UK, in Germany,
in France, in America even therewas a guy in Turkey.
Like I've seen what they'vebeen posting since October 7, as
well, and like there's nothingkind of there's unique aspects
(11:39):
to what Australian Jews havegone through, but there's also
common experiences and I thinkJewish communities right around
the world are feeling this aswell.
So I think Australia is stillone of the best places in the
world to be Jewish and one ofthe safest places, and I think
we need to be active and engagedcitizens, which we always have
(11:59):
been, but we don't want tobecome kind of insulated or
stuck in a corner where we'rejust part of the conservative
establishment or just part ofthe Liberal Party, which is not,
again, not to disrespect theLiberal Party or not to attack
them for supporting the Jewishcommunity, it's just to say like
we have to be engaged with theprogressive side of politics as
(12:20):
well.
Labor is one of the two partiesof government it's the party
that's in government right nowfederally and in most states
Victoria and New South Waleswhere most of the Jewish
community of Australia lives.
So like we have to have arelationship with that party as
well.
And as you said in your intro,dash, there's a long and proud
history of Jewish Australiansbeing involved in labor and
(12:41):
getting elected to parliamentfor labor, and so you know, I
want to stay involved with thosepeople and to work with those
people.
And I think, like every Jewishperson who feels ideologically
that they're more a Labor personthan a Liberal person, like I
want Labor to listen to them,but I also want them to feel
like they can still be engagedwith Labor and hopefully vote
(13:03):
Labor.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Jack, I'm interested in your experience of the
post-October 7th climate.
Obviously, you are a member ofand affiliated with, the Liberal
Party.
As Dean said, peter Dutton hasbeen unequivocal, unconditional
in his support for Israel andfor his really pushing of action
(13:25):
on anti-Semitism, at least inhis rhetoric.
I'm interested in, given thatyou're from that side of
politics, how you've looked uponall of this and a response from
you to what you've just heardfrom Dean's perspective.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I might just start with the response to what Dean
said first, because it's fresherin my mind.
I don't look at what'shappening inside the ALP with
any degree of relish.
I'm not one of those peoplewho's in politics for the blood
sport.
I think it is.
It is I say this in sorrow,more in sorrow than in anger but
the quavering of the ALP overthe last 18 months has been
(14:06):
incredibly heart-rending to see.
As a Jewish Australian, tothink about how we have gone
from a position where, forinstance, as Dean mentioned,
julia Gillard, who was a strongsupporter of the state of Israel
and of the Jewish community inAustralia, to an ALP which now
has a foreign ministermentioning Israel in the same
breath as Russia and China, isdeeply disturbing to me.
(14:26):
Again, I say this more insorrow than in anger, but I ask
myself how did it get here?
I think in large part.
Dean.
I mean, I would say Dean ispart of the solution to this
problem in that he is activelyengaged in this party.
One of the things that I thinkwe should probably say right off
the bat here and I think Deanwould agree with this is that
political parties areamalgamations of their members.
(14:48):
They represent the interests oftheir members.
They represent the values oftheir members.
It's things you are able tochange the policy platforms of
political parties throughjoining, having those
(15:11):
discussions, having thosearguments.
I mean, how do you think theALP changed from a position
where it was staunchlypro-Israel a period of not even
40 years ago to the positionthat they find themselves now?
And you would actually identifyspecific individuals who have
joined the party or engaged inthe party's processes to bring
those outcomes in.
So you know, I don't think thatthe ALP, I don't believe that
(15:33):
there's too many members of theALP who are institutionally
anti-Semitic, but I think thatthe instincts of the ALP are not
as finely honed in this respectas they should be.
And I mean that in the sensethat, like when something like
anti-Semitism at universities,which has been a persistent
problem in Australia since the7th of October, when something
(15:56):
like that comes up, the instinctof the Labor Party wasn't to
get on top of this stuffimmediately, you know, insist
that the Education StandardsAuthority and other regulators
get involved here.
It was to sort of deny that itwas as big a problem as we
thought it was and only sort ofafter a concerted campaign and I
would call out the work herespecifically of Julian Lisa,
(16:17):
who's been fantastic in thissort of area to bring this
matter to the attention ofpolicymakers and ministers.
Did they actually start lookinginto this issue and looking at
it more systemically than sortof casual glances?
You know, I should sort of comeback to your question.
It's not a difference inrespect necessarily of like
(16:37):
these people are anti-Semitic.
I don't think that's the casefor an awful lot of the Labor
Party.
I think the issue is is thatthe Liberal Party instinctually
understands what's going on herewith Jewish Australians a lot
better, and I think that'spartially because there's more
Jewish people who are members ofthe Liberal Party and that we
can have an argument about whythat is.
You know, there's an awful lotof people in my part of the
(16:58):
world who are members of theLiberal Party, but then it's
historically been a liberal seatnot at the moment.
So it could be economic or itcould be simply that we're
seeing the development of theway in which migrant communities
sort of migrate from the LabourParty towards the coalition
after the second or thirdgeneration, and those are sorts
of more academic arguments oracademic discussions to be had.
But if you ask me what myexperience has been inside the
(17:22):
Liberal Party.
It has been much, much moresupportive.
As a Jewish person, I won't saythere hasn't been things that
have concerned me.
I was at a pre-selection notsix months ago where one of the
people putting their hand up forpre-selection it was a state
pre-selection as well, by theway.
It didn't make much sense to methat he would do this, but they
had said that they were, youknow, for Palestinian
independence, which you know youcan be for or against.
(17:44):
But to put it up as a thing instate pre-selection, I think was
a deliberate dog whistle and Idon't think people really
responded well to that insidethe room.
So these are the sorts ofthings which you would find
differently.
If a person went to an ALPpre-selection and said I support
Palestinian independence, it'slikely to be a vote winner.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Dean, would you agree with that?
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Well, I think it depends where you are in the
country.
Like I live in McNamara, whichis this unique electorate.
I wonder if, like the Jewishcommunity, realises just how
strange and unique thiselectorate is, that we have this
like 10% Jewish character andin a sense, not that different
to Wentworth, where you have astrong Jewish community in a
(18:28):
seat that well, wentworth was,as he said, historically a safe
liberal seat and now it's heldby a teal independent but, like
McNamara, has been a labor seatsince it was called Melbourne
Ports in the 1900s and it was aworking class electorate.
But now it's a sort of affluent, progressive, educated inner
(18:48):
city electorate with lots ofyoung people, lots of renters,
all of which sort of point to itbeing a progressive seat.
But then you also have 10% to12% of the electorate who are
Jewish.
So Jewish issues, anti-semitismin Israel, play a big role in
this seat, and that was the casewhen Michael Danby was the MP
and obviously it's been the caseespecially since October 7.
(19:09):
All of which goes to say you'reright that the Labor Party
membership as a whole have amore ideologically pro-Palestine
perspective than the membershipof the Liberal Party, and it
would be different if you're inthe Corfu branch of the Labor
Party which has a lot of Jewishpeople who've been members of
the party for a long time.
(19:31):
You know, josh Burns' campaign,just as Michael's campaign
before, has become a bit of abreeding ground for sort of
student leaders for more, justto get involved in politics and
youth movements, which is great.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
They absolutely should Look.
I think, dean, you and I wouldprobably be on a unity ticket
here when we'd say the mostimportant thing that people can
do is join the political partythat you know most aligns to
their views.
You know, if they're young andthey're Jewish, I would
encourage them to look at everypolitical party, with one or two
exceptions, because I may notbe welcome there, but political
(20:04):
parties being amalgamations oftheir members.
If they join and they stickwith it and they have those
discussions with people and theydemonstrate that there's a
constituency here that is beingignored by the party or that
there's a constituency that isgoing to be there and be
involved.
And it strikes me asinteresting that you go to a
pre-selection or you go to aparty meeting.
You get to decide the directionof the party.
(20:25):
These parties are institutionalinside Australia, despite
reports of their demise.
You get to choose the directionthat the party moves in.
You get to select the candidatethat goes into and becomes, you
know, the member of parliament.
And what concerns you is whatshould concern them.
If they're a half decentpolitician, they will listen to
(20:45):
the people who are around them,who control their pre-selection
and who drive the policy thatcomes out of the parties.
I think that the most importantthing that you can do,
especially in a country likeAustralia where society hasn't
broken politics isn't broken yet.
You can see it's sort offracturing in some respects but
the most important thing you cando is join a political party.
(21:06):
It is astonishing to me thatthere is an awful lot of people
in our communities.
You want to complain aboutwhat's going on with politics in
Australia, yet my message toyou is go out and do something
about it.
If you're worried about theability for your family, your
children, your grandchildren tolive in this country, the most
effective thing that you can dois join a political party.
(21:27):
Be involved in the politicalprocess.
Hand out how to votes goletterboxing, show up to events.
Make your issues the issues ofpoliticians.
Now, I know that means a lot ofJewish people may be
predisposed towards thecoalition parties, but I'm
hoping this message reachespotential Labour Party members
as well.
You know it might seem daunting, it might seem difficult, but
(21:48):
there are people like Dean outthere who can help you get
involved in these sorts oforganisations, and they are the
only thing that is going tochange systemically politics in
Australia.
There's nothing else.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Dean Jack, I'm interested in what you both make
of the fact that the share ofthe votes that the Labor and
Liberal parties have beengetting really for the last
three, four decades has beendeclining and we are now at a
point where the primary votethat Labor and Liberal will
(22:26):
likely get at this next federalelection will be, if not, the
same as what we would expect forall the other third parties and
independents combined.
So Australians are increasinglychoosing not to vote with Labor
or Liberal but are dividingtheir loyalties across a whole
range of small parties, microparties, the Greens and
(22:48):
independents.
Really interested in what youboth make of that and also what
that might mean for Jewishcommunity interests Because, as
we know, and no doubt one of youwill get to it, we have seen a
radically different approachfrom the Australian Greens to
(23:09):
issues that are of great concernto the Jewish community.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
I mean, I've thought about this a lot.
I think for me there was aninteresting moment when Fatima
Payman, who was the Laborsenator in WA, she was elected
third on Labor's ticket in WAbecause Labor did incredibly
well in WA the last election andshe quit the party, basically
to cross the floor on a motion,I think, to recognise
(23:36):
Palestinian statehood.
Labor voted no because Labordoesn't support Senate motions
dictating foreign policy toitself.
Obviously, labor hasn't yetrecognised Palestine as a state.
But you know, payman quit theparty.
She said she wanted to be ableto speak her mind and I saw in
that moment a lot of thecommentary and a lot of the like
(23:58):
social media, the TikToks, thereels that you see from
influencers in the kind ofprogressive world and from young
people about like, well, whywon't Labor let this woman speak
her mind?
And even just like, putting theissue aside like, labor has a
long tradition of collectivedecision making.
It's a party that was born fromthe trade union movement that
(24:19):
was sort of you know, and theconcept of a trade union is that
workers band together.
They're stronger together, theywork together to use their
collective power so that theirbosses can't exploit them to get
better pay and workingconditions.
And the Labor Party similarlybelieves that, like you join the
party, you debate in internalforums, you debate in the caucus
(24:41):
room or at the party conferencepolicies, but you know, when
you present a united frontagainst your opponents the
conservatives, the liberal andnational parties and, yes,
increasingly the Greens andother parties as well All of
this kind of goes to say that, Ithink, like the world's
changing, younger generations,even progressives in younger
generations, don't necessarilyhave an appreciation for that
(25:04):
concept that, like a movement isstronger if people put aside
their differences, present aunited front.
And, like you know, laborcurrently represents a majority
in the parliament and thatincludes seats like McNamara,
where I am.
It includes another like ahistoric liberal seat in Higgins
, which has been abolished, but,like you know, the people of
(25:25):
Torak and Malvern and Armidalewho had never voted Labor in
their lives or never electedLabor in their lives.
And it also represents, youknow, rural mining communities
in the Hunter Valley and youhave these different communities
.
Some of them are affluent andconcerned about climate change
and some of them havehistorically built their towns
around coal mining.
(25:46):
And trying to bring all thoseperspectives together and
present a united front and anagenda that appeals to and looks
after the interests of allthese different communities
around the country.
That's, I think, a big part ofwhat it means to be in a major
party.
So one of the trends that Ithink is like I just think young
people are looking forpoliticians to be a lot like the
(26:08):
influencers they follow onInstagram or TikTok like to be
unfiltered, to be authentic, torepresent what they think and
what they believe, and theycan't kind of get it into their
heads that there's actuallyinherent value in a major party
being representative ofdifferent communities that have
very different views and tryingto.
(26:29):
You know, like that's whatgoverning is about, right?
I just think that, like, asthere's more choice and more
diversity and people are lesstied to like, younger
generations don't have the sameviews.
They consume media differently,they think differently.
Our attention spans have allbeen shortened by social media
(26:50):
and the internet, and peopledon't read the newspaper like
they used to, that watch the sixo'clock news the way they used
to.
So the whole world's beendisrupted, right, and I think
it's just natural that that'simpacting politics as well.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Jack, what do you think about that fragmentation
and, as a Jewish man that isactively involved in your party,
what does it?
Speaker 3 (27:11):
concern you.
So, look, I think there's acouple of things we have to
understand structurally aboutthe way that voting is conducted
in Australia.
The first is that there's acompulsory distribution of
preferences.
It's not necessarily who youput first, it's who you put last
, which is in a compulsorydistribution of preferences
model, means that your vote isnever going to go to the person
(27:31):
you preference last.
It'll go to the person youpreference second last.
Last It'll go to the person youpreference second last.
And that's a very, veryimportant point, because a
person who, for whatever reason,is upset with the Labor Party
might vote for a variety ofprogressive parties before the
Labor Party, but give theirsecond to last preference to the
Labor Party and their lastpreference to the Liberal Party,
knowing full well that theirvote is never going to go to the
(27:52):
Liberal Party and potentiallyelect a Liberal candidate.
How then does that square withthe perpetual loss of Liberal
seats over?
I should point out the last,like it's close to 15 years, 15
years, 12 years at least?
There's been a sort of aprogressive drip away from
Liberal Party seats, startingwith country seats like Indi
Mayo, moving into inner cityseats, warringah.
(28:14):
I think a large part of this isthe Liberal Party base, and I
mean this not in the sense ofthe party membership, but I mean
this in the sense of the peoplewho vote for the Liberal Party.
It's a reaction of the LiberalParty base to the individual
personalities and some of thepolicies that the Liberal Party
has been bringing forward, andit's disappointing to see that
(28:34):
An awful lot of the people wholost their seats at the last
election would have been thesorts of people to rein in the
more excessive elements of theLiberal Party.
You know, as we operate inopposition, that said, it's the
will of the people.
They have made that decision.
It's not enough to simply say,well, they're misguided or
they're mistaken.
But I think, if you look at themacro concerns people tend to,
(29:02):
if they know they can vote as aprotest against a major
political party, knowing thattheir vote will still elect the
member of the party that willform government, they can do
that.
But your vote is your vote.
If enough people decide thatthey wanted to vote for a
specific independent or minorparty candidate, they'll get up.
That's how it is.
That's how the system works.
How does it make me feel?
Well, look, I think and I dohave to touch on this.
I do think I've got someopinions about how the Greens
(29:25):
have acted, specifically sinceOctober 7.
But it's let's just say it'sthe reaping of a crop which was
fertilized well before October 7.
Say it's the reaping of a cropwhich was fertilized well before
October 7.
We are dealing with a Greenspolitical party and I know that
that's a specific talking pointthat both the ALP and the
(29:46):
Liberal Party use.
They are a political partywhich are deeply anti-Semitic.
In my view, they are a partywhich has the language of
progressive anti-racism, whilstbeing some of the worst racists
I have ever seen in Australianpolitics.
There is no other party inAustralia, to my knowledge, that
(30:07):
has literally demonised Jews,and I use that word.
I don't like using the wordliterally, but when a state
member of parliament, jennyLeong, sits in front of a crowd
of people, it's not privatethoughts, this is public
expressions and says that Jewishpeople have tentacles and those
tentacles reach intoprogressive areas.
(30:35):
No-transcript, awful pro-formermea culpa that came afterwards
was pathetic and the silencefrom Greens leaders state and
federal was deafening.
It was the most shameful eventI have ever seen in Australian
(30:58):
polity.
You know it was the sort ofthing that you would see out of
1930s Germany, it's all thosesorts of things.
And the point about anyonethinking that the Greens are
simply an environmental movementand it's, you know, this is
just social justice or you know,progressive.
It's not.
It's sustained and systemic andit sits inside the Greens, it
(31:21):
exists inside the Greens as analmost article of faith.
You know, I note that justyesterday it appears that the
Greens are starting to comb theranks of those, you know,
anti-israel activists that wereactive on university campuses to
fill out their candidate lists.
It doesn't surprise me.
It does not surprise me.
Candidate lists it doesn'tsurprise me.
It does not surprise me and Ithink that the point is is that
(31:47):
people are waking up to this.
In the last local governmentelections, which aren't a great
analogue for federal elections,but the Greens went backwards in
places that they havetraditionally been very strong
in.
The Greens actually have a hugevote in seats where Jewish
people tend to hang out.
So they have a higher vote inWentworth, a higher vote in
McNamara, a higher vote inKingswood Smith On the leafy
North Shore of Sydney.
Their vote is in excess oftheir state average, which is
(32:09):
about 11%.
All those seats that I'vementioned, all those areas that
I've mentioned.
They're in the mid to highteens and if I was the Greens
and I was running their campaignGod help me I would be deeply
concerned about the way in whichtheir radicalism has led them
to a point where people arerejecting them at the local
(32:30):
government level which they havebeen.
They're losing seats at thelast state local council
elections and they should.
There should be a politicalconsequence to anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And yet, jack, the irony is that they may well be
elected in McNamara, in the seatthat we've been talking about,
the Jewish seat in Melbournethat Dean lives in and that is
currently held by Labor's JoshBurns.
The irony is, they may wellknock Labor out and finally
(32:59):
claim that seat.
They've been knocking on thedoor of that seat for the last
few elections, and this could bethe one, couldn't it, dean?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Yeah.
So they got very close in 2016,which was Michael Damby's last
election, and they got prettyclose last time as well.
And the Greens' pathway to winthe seat is for Labor to finish
third and for them to getLabor's preferences.
So the irony is and the Jewishindependents covered this
(33:27):
Deborah Stone's written about it.
There have been a number ofother pieces going around the
community in the Jewish news aswell.
The sort of irony is that theJewish community's anger at
Labor could mean that Josh Burns, the incumbent Jewish MP, loses
votes to the Liberals and if hefalls behind the Greens, then
(33:47):
the Greens make the final twoand the majority of Labor voters
.
Anthony Green, erstwhile ABCelection expert, for those who
aren't familiar with him, he'sestimated that even on an open
ticket which Labor's runningwhich is a pretty historic thing
to not recommend preferences atall in McNamara I don't know of
(34:08):
Labor ever doing that anywherebefore.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Just on that, Dean, was that a bad call by Josh and
his team to not put the Greenslast and to leave it as an open
ticket?
Speaker 4 (34:19):
It's a complicated question and I think I don't
want to sound crass about it,like I think the strategy in
preferences is always aboutwinning right, and I say that in
the sense of, like, josh Burns'goal is to get re-elected, but
also Josh Burns gettingre-elected stops the Greens from
winning.
So it's kind of a double-edgedsword, I think, with preferences
(34:40):
, because I was just drivingdown Carlisle Street this
morning getting my morningcoffee before I came back to
join this call and I see thereare some posters that Extinction
Rebellion have put up accusingJosh Burns of helping the
Liberal Party win the electionbecause he's not preferencing
the Greens.
So the difficulty is that youcan alienate progressive voters
(35:03):
and if you lose votes to theGreens because you've sent a
signal that you'd prefer theLiberal Party to the Greens and
that alienates Labor's leftflank because of course only 10%
of McNamara is Jewish andprobably you know, the majority
of Labor voters in this seat aremore of the sort of progressive
St Kilda, elwood, southMelbourne, south Bank types, not
(35:25):
necessarily Caulfield,balaclava, bagel Belt types.
If it's just about taking astand against the Greens but
that actually helps the Greenswin, then I don't think it's
worth doing.
So I think the open ticket iskind of a way of saying well,
the voters will decide andthat's the democratic way of
doing it.
And you know, like we have torespect what the voters think
(35:47):
but like we can't necessarilytell people Obviously how to
vote are just recommendations.
But you can't necessarilyconvince a progressive Labor
voter to put the Greens lastjust because you say they're
anti-Semitic Outside the Jewishcommunity.
I think in seats like this mostpeople will be voting on the
usual issues climate change,housing, cost of living, the
(36:11):
economy.
They're not going to bethinking about anti-Semitism or
Israel.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
So all of which goes to say, like I would say, that
social cohesion is somethingthat people are concerned about.
You know, when you're seeinganti-Semitism in the way it's
formulated itself in Australia,they would be concerned about it
.
I would agree with you in thesense that, like running an open
ticket, is a signal.
I would also say that puttingthe grains last is a stronger
signal.
The particularities that Joshhas in his seat are not entirely
(36:37):
familiar to me.
I am a Sydney Jew.
The point is that Josh has inhis seat are not entirely
familiar to me.
I am a Sydney Jew.
The point is that people's voteis their vote.
You know you can recommendstuff to them and I would
recommend to every one of yourlisteners, if they are listening
, if they are planning onputting the Greens anything
other than last.
I think that's wrong, I think,at this election.
I believe that there aresystemic problems inside the
(36:59):
Greens and I think that theyshould go backwards in terms of
seats.
Now, another problem I thinkwe're sort of focusing on here
is, you know what is it that?
The Jewish community?
What influence does the Jewishcommunity have electorally?
Well, you know we like to talkabout Jewish seats.
The reality is, is that even inWentworth, which is the most
Jewish people in the country.
It's still, you know, a longminority.
(37:20):
I mean even with a generousinterpretation of, you know, vos
Mastah Yidden, you're lookingat maybe 20% of the seed.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
I think 16%, the last figure I saw.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Yeah.
So I mean, look, there'shistoric underreporting of Jews
in the census.
There's historic underreportingfor a lot of different reasons
and that one would suggest thatit might be one in five at the
most.
And you know, it is to mychagrin having one run and one
elections here at all threelevels in this part of Sydney.
Yeah, jewish stuff is important, but there is a whole lot of
(37:52):
people out there you know, fourin every five who are not Jewish
and don't necessarily think theway that we do.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
If people are worried about the Greens winning the
seat and this is the kind ofmessage that Josh and other
people have been making is likeputting the Greens last is not
necessarily enough, because ifLabor gets less primary votes
than the Greens, theoverwhelming likelihood is the
Greens will win.
So if you are and obviously Ihope people vote for Josh Burns
(38:22):
because he's been a goodrepresentative of the community
and he's stuck his neck out alot over the last three years,
and particularly since October 7, for the Jewish community and
for Israel in a way that fewothers have done.
But if that doesn't get youover the line, like voting one
for Josh and then putting theGreens last is actually the most
(38:43):
strategic way to ensure thatthe Greens don't win.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
We talk about strategic voting.
Fortunately, we don't have thatreally here in Australia
because we don't use afirst-past-the-post system.
You know, I would say everyoneshould be voting one Liberal,
and that's naturally where I'mcoming from.
I'm shocked to hear that.
Jack, yeah, I know right, heylisten.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
it's remarkable, jack .
Let's talk about Wentworth.
So currently held by theindependent member, allegra
Spender, who beats the previousLiberal Party member and former
ambassador to Israel, daveSharma, the Liberal Party is
back again throwing the bus atthis seat.
(39:23):
They have really, reallycampaigned very hard to win this
back.
They've got Roe Knox in and I'mobviously down in Melbourne so
I can't see it, but I understandthat Wentworth certainly the
Jewish part of Wentworth at themoment is just awash with blue.
The Jewish community has reallycome out in strong support of
Roe Knox.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Look just on the campaign here at the moment.
Yes, it's obviously a much moreactive campaign than we're used
to seeing.
I mean, I remember when I wasrunning campaigns here it was,
you know, against people whowere sort of very well-meaning,
but there wasn't any seriousopposition.
Now it's a marginal seat.
That's how it's categorised.
I would say it's a marginalseat.
That's how it's categorised.
I would say there's a couple ofthings, just in relation to the
(40:02):
redistribution, that haveprobably made it much harder for
the Liberal Party to win.
The redistribution pushes theseat into Woolloomooloo, which
is a lot more, you say, in acity.
There's a differentsocioeconomic.
Well, there's a lot of publichousing there.
Essentially, yeah, there is alot of public housing.
It makes it more difficult fora liberal candidate to win.
I think the uh.
(40:23):
When I ran the campaign in 2013, the only booth we didn't win
was willamaloo, so that was a.
Again, it's a very hard boothin respect to the liberal party.
I am upset by a specificnarrative that's coming out
about the teals that they'resomehow doing politics
differently.
All I see with teals is is thesame politics but in a different
(40:46):
color.
And what do I mean by that?
The decision that allegraspender took this term of
parliament.
Which energized the jewishcommunity more than anything
else was her decision to, alongwith other teal members, write
to the foreign minister aboutthe funding for the UN Relief
Works Agency, unrwa as it'sotherwise known, and this
decision, I think, was the wrongdecision.
(41:08):
I think it didn't understandexactly.
I mean, I think it's the wrongdecision to fund UNRWA, given
what we know now about itspersonnel and what it's been
doing in respective schools.
I think the decision to sort ofwrite in support of this
organisation deeply upset theJewish community.
The sort of fig leaf that wasgiven to the Jewish community
(41:30):
was well, you know, we're justconcerned about humanitarian
relief.
Well, unrwa doesn't provide asmuch humanitarian relief as you
know, the World Food Programme,for instance.
So I think this is a, it was amisstep by Allegra Spender that
took place about a year as muchhumanitarian relief as the World
Food Programme, for instance.
So I think this is a, it was amisstep by Allegra Spender that
took place about a year ago andit only was overturned, like she
(41:52):
only renounced her position onthis, you know, less than a
month ago in the lead up to theelection.
And again, it goes to instincts, the instincts of the Teals, it
appears, aren't in alignmentwith the Jewish community.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Dean, I picked up something earlier on in the
conversation, when you said thatJewish Australians have accused
Anthony Albanese of beinganti-Semitic and hates Israel,
and then you said I know him andhe's not anti-Semitic, but you
didn't say he doesn't hateIsrael.
Was that you choosing yourwords carefully or you just
forgot to add that?
Speaker 4 (42:22):
bit.
No, I don't think he hatesIsrael either.
I don't think Penny Wong hatesIsrael, believe it or not.
I think they are both obviouslymore critical of Israel than
you know.
The Jewish community feels verydefensive of Israel all the
time, but obviously especiallyso since October 7.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
I know you were on a bit of a texty-texty basis with
Albo.
I saw him yesterday, did you?
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Actually, as it happens, okay, nothing to do
with the Jewish community, buthe visited a social housing site
that one of our clients builtwith federal funding.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Okay, so you bumped into him.
We waved to each other Okay,you don't cuddle.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
No, well, it was just enough that we kind of
acknowledged each other fromacross the hall.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Are you his token Jewish friend, or does he have a
few?
Speaker 4 (43:12):
I think there are a few.
I don't know if I should namenames.
There are some Jewish communityleaders that I've spoken to
who've been speaking to him alot as well.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
You wrote a piece for the Jewish Independent in
defense of Anthony Albanese.
He read that piece, I believe,and he contacted you afterwards.
He did.
What did he say?
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Well, he did read the piece.
So it was a piece about theOctober 7 one-year anniversary
event in Melbourne which heattended.
It was a very long event but hecame early, he stayed, he sat
through the whole thing andthere were a few people who
objected to him going, whosigned petitions that he
(43:53):
shouldn't be invited, there werepeople who kind of heckled him
not that many and there was acomment made on the stage about
the government's failure ofleadership and things which got
some applause.
So I wrote an article saying weshould be appreciative that the
Prime Minister of Australiawanted to spend four or five
hours of his time on the eve ofa sitting week listening to our
(44:16):
stories and our experiencessince October 7, listening to,
you know, relatives of hostages,relatives of people who were
killed in the October 7 attacks.
That's a good thing that theprime minister wants to listen.
And yeah, he, this is anexclusive for the Ashamed to
Admit podcast.
Anthony Albanese read the JewishIndependent and he called me
(44:38):
just to say thank you.
I won't necessarily go into thewhole conversation
Conversations should remainprivate but he was appreciative
of the sentiment and it wasimportant to him that he went to
the event and he understoodthat there was anger in the
community, but he still thoughtthat it was the right thing, as
Prime Minister, for him to bethere with the Jewish community
(44:59):
on the anniversary of October 7.
Conversations I've had with himlike he genuinely does care
about the rise of antisemitismin this country and we can
criticize whether he's doneenough or whether the
government's done enough, buthe's not an antisemite, trust me
.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I don't think there's many elected politicians in
Australia who are antisemites.
I can't say there are none.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Okay, prediction time .
Who wants to go first?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
I'll just say minority government.
You know, but you can't dictatewhich way things are going to
go once negotiations start for aminority government.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Right, so you think it could be a minority
government Labor, minoritygovernment Liberal?
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Look, it would be the independent members, not just
the Teals.
By the way, that there's otherindependent members like Dai Lei
and Andrew Wilkie and BobCatter.
They're going to play theircards close to their chest.
I think they're all going to beled in negotiations by Andrew
Wilkie because he's been therebefore and he was extremely
disappointed by the Labor Partyback when he endorsed them first
(45:58):
in 2010.
But it's going to be a hungparliament and that's going to
be incredibly frustrating.
My prediction is for the nextterm of parliament to be a lot
more confrontational than we'veseen.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Okay, Dean Sher, you're a bit more optimistic
than Jack.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
If I was a gambling man and I was a month ago,
because I think Labor was about$2.60 with sports bet and I
thought that's worth a bit of abet and they're now about $1.30.
So and the Liberals have blownout to something like $4, $5.
So the polls nationally aremoving towards Labor.
I think the latest ones havebeen either 52, 48 or 53, 47.
(46:34):
So I think Labor will holdgovernment.
Whether that's minority ormajority is still unclear.
I think majority is back in theconversation now that it maybe
didn't seem like it was a monthago.
But I think it's sort of justnotable that the Jewish
community is experiencing thiselection very differently than
the rest of the population.
(46:55):
I think Peter Dutton'sstruggling with the broader
population, but he's clearlystill resonating with the Jewish
community, and I think we'llsee the Jewish community get in
strongly behind the LiberalParty in the seats that we've
spoken about.
But I don't think that that'sgoing to make that much of a
difference.
I suspect Allegra will holdWentworth, precisely as Jack
(47:17):
said, because the redistributionprobably dilutes the Jewish
community's influence even moreso, and I think either Labor or
the Greens will win McNamara.
I'll still pick Josh Burns towin it, but I certainly don't
think the Liberals will.
I think it'll be interesting tosee how that all washes out,
and how does the Jewishcommunity engage with what I
think will be a second termAlbanese government All right On
(47:39):
that note, it's been greathearing your perspectives and
your experiences.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
I really have appreciated what I've heard
today.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
I just wanted to thank you for that conversation.
I only tuned out three timesand I thought, if we're going to
be here for an hour, I wasthinking, you know once every
five minutes, but three times inan hour.
Can someone do the maths?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
20 minutes.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, pretty good, pretty good.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
I would have hoped you hadn't tuned out at all, but
I mean that's.
I guess politics isn'teveryone's everything.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Dean Sher Jack Pinchewski.
Thank you so much for joiningus in the studio for this a
shame to admit election special.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Thank you.
Thank you, Tammy SussmanDashiell, Lawrence, Dean Sher.
It's a pleasure.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
You've been listening to the election special episode
of Ashamed to Admit, with meTammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (48:35):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than a democracy
sausage.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
me and Dash's fill in next week.
Thank you.
Hey Dash.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hi Tammy.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Dash, aren't you meant to be getting ready for
your overseas trip?
You told our listeners lastepisode that you'd be away for a
few weeks.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And I still intend to be away for a few weeks.
But yes, look, I just couldn'tresist one last episode because
I managed to secure two peoplethat I've been wanting to talk
to in the lead-in to theupcoming federal election.
I managed to get the formeradvisors to Anthony Albanese and
(00:35):
Malcolm Turnbull, two youngJewish men, to agree to an
interview, and we felt it wouldbe worthwhile bringing, to our
Shame to Admit listeners theJewish Labor and the Jewish
Liberal position ahead of thefederal election on the 3rd of
May.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Dash, you got your democracy sausage ready.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I do yes, with onions on top.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Great, let's get to it.
Let's get to it.
Are you interested in howJewish Australians are
approaching the upcoming federalelection?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
If you answered yes, then you might be too ashamed to
ask.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewyelection topics.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Dean Sher Jack Pinczewski.
Thank you so much for joiningus in the Ashamed to Admit
studio.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's a pleasure to be here, thank you.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Dean.
Jack, with the federal electionjust a few weeks away on
Saturday, May the 3rd, we wantedto bring two distinct Jewish
perspectives on Australianpolitics a shame, to admit.
Just to kind of help set thecontext for the conversation,
(02:19):
Dean, can you start by giving abit of an overview on your
political background andexperience?
And then, Jack, I'm interestedto hear more about your story.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Sure.
So I got involved in politicsbasically straight out of high
school.
I did a you could call it aninternship, I suppose in Michael
Damby's office when I was inyear 11.
I went up to Canberra for asitting week and volunteered in
his office for a bit, and then Igot a part-time job out of high
school.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Sorry, Dan, I'm just going to interrupt for our
international listeners.
Michael Danby, the erstwhileMichael Danby, longtime member,
Labor member of parliament andardent supporter of the state of
Israel, former member ofparliament in the seat of
McNamara and Melbourne Ports,which takes in largest chunk of
Australia's, of Melbourne'sJewish community.
Sorry, back over to you.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
No, please, yes, yeah .
So I worked for Michael sort ofon and off while I was at
university.
While I was studying, mostlypart-time.
I did a stint full-time in the2016 campaign.
I worked together with JoshBurns in Michael's office for a
year, which Josh for theinternational listeners, Josh
(03:35):
went on to succeed Michael asthe Labor candidate and then MP
for the seat when it was renamedfrom Melbourne Ports to
McNamara.
I then worked for a state MP,Philip Dalladakis, when he was a
minister in the Victoriangovernment for a couple of years
, and then I went off to runJosh Burns' first campaign.
I worked for him for the firstterm that he served, from 2019
(03:57):
to 2022.
We got him re-elected a bitmore narrowly in 2022.
And then Labor came into powerand I got a job in Prime
Minister Anthony Albanese'soffice, so I was a media advisor
in his team for a little bitover a year.
I was living in Canberra but Iwas between two cities.
I had a home in Melbourne and apartner at the time living in
(04:20):
Melbourne, and so I made adecision that it was time for a
change and time to rebalance mywork life.
So there was some life and notall work, so that was the sort
of personal reason to come backand I joined the sort of
consulting world which is afamiliar way for political
staffers to re-utilise theirlimited skills and experience.
(04:42):
Yeah, so I've been involved inLabor since I was 18, pretty
much, and I'm now 32.
So it feels like a lifetime.
I remember the first branchmeeting I think one of the first
branch meetings I went to whenI joined the party, which was in
the years of the Gillardgovernment, and there were then
tensions with the Jewishcommunity.
Foreign Minister Bob Carr waspressing Julia Gillard.
(05:05):
Julia was a strong supporter ofIsrael but there were others in
the caucus and the government,especially the foreign minister,
who wanted to sort of changeforeign policy and so the Jewish
community was upset about someof those shifts and Labor was
sort of tearing itself apart ingovernment at that time.
Anyway, the leadership tensionsbetween Kevin Rudd and Julia
Gillard and one of the moreexperienced branch members in
(05:28):
the Caulfield branch of theLabor Party, which you can
imagine is a pretty Jewishbranch, said to me well, gee, if
you're joining the Labor Partynow, you'll last the distance
and I suppose a lot of theproblems that he was alluding to
at the time, especially in theJewish community, probably pale
in significance or in comparisonto the tensions that exist
(05:49):
today.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Absolutely, jack.
For some people it might besurprising to learn that the
Labor Party has been the naturalhome historically for most
Australian Jews.
Certainly in the middle toperhaps latter part of the 20th
century.
Times have changed very muchsince then.
I'm interested what was yourdraw and attraction to the
(06:11):
Liberal Party and tell us alittle bit about your experience
as a political insider.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
So I'm a Sydney Jewish man born and bred.
I left home to head down tostudy at the Australian National
University.
While I was there I met anawful lot of people who are
involved in politics.
It's just easier to be involvedin formalized politics when you
are down in the nation'scapital, and some of these
(06:38):
people also ran the JewishStudent Society.
It had fallen into abeyance bythe time I'd arrived there, but
I'd sort of gone to these people.
Oddly enough, a lot ofpolitical characters helped run
it and I restarted the JewishStudent Society there at ANU.
After a chance meeting with theIsraeli embassy there, I was
offered a job and startedworking for the Israeli embassy
(06:59):
down in Canberra.
I did that for two years withYuval Rotem, who is probably
familiar to some of yourlisteners Australian listeners
as the former ambassador toAustralia, but some of your
international listeners mightknow him as the immediate past
head of the Ministry of ForeignAffairs in Israel.
So I got a great politicalinternship in that respect.
After university I came back upto Sydney and found a job with
(07:24):
a consultancy which wasn'treally motivating me
intellectually and an offer cameup to work with Malcolm
Turnbull.
I joined the Liberal Partyprior to starting with Malcolm
Turnbull because of anunderstanding that I'll come to
later.
But the point is, I always knewthat the most important thing
you can do in a democracy is bepolitically active and engage in
politics.
(07:44):
In a democracy is bepolitically active and engage in
politics.
The Liberal Party sort ofappeared to me to be
simultaneously both morepredisposed to my interests and
my concerns.
So the priorities that I hadand I felt that this would be a
natural way, a natural home forme to have politically.
I started working for MalcolmTurnbull in the beginning of
(08:06):
2013 and stayed with him untilAugust 2018, when things sort of
came to a screeching haltInside Malcolm's office.
I did a variety of things.
I was running the electorateoffice eventually, I worked in
his media team.
I worked in his internationaland national security team
Nothing senior, I should add.
When that came to a halt, Itraveled for six months and then
(08:26):
went to state politics where Iworked for the leader of the
government in the state upperhouse here in New South Wales
and did that for a couple ofyears.
And now I work for aninternational financial
technology firm.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Dean, let's bring the conversation to recent times
and to the current politicalclimate.
You've told me about some ofthe challenges you faced, being
both Jewish and a Labor Partymember and activist.
What specific tensions have youexperienced since October 7th?
(09:03):
Have you experienced sinceOctober 7th and tell us how have
you gone, maintaining yourcommitment to the Labor Party
but also being a member of aJewish community, when we know
that many Jewish people andcertainly Jewish organisations
and leaders have been furiouswith the Labor Party and with
(09:25):
the Prime Minister really sinceOctober, the 7th 2023.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
The tension between the Jewish community and the
current Labor government isreally intense and, you know, I
think, certainly from the voicesthat come out the loudest, it's
a very strong anger and I think, like you feel it on a personal
level.
I think about, like, differentwars gone past and the ways in
(09:53):
which we engage them.
And you know, the way of theworld right now is like we live
everything throughout Instagramfeeds, right, but like I think
you just see, like friends andfamily sharing stories all the
time about how angry they are atLabor and the government and
you know, sometimes it's thingsthat are that are reasonable
concerns and other times it'sseeing people saying, oh, you
(10:15):
know, labor's abandoned Israel.
Anthony Albanese hates Israel,he's an anti-Semite.
You know, like I worked forAnthony Albanese, I know him.
I don't think he is ananti-Semite.
You know, like I worked forAnthony Albanese, I know him, I
don't think he is an anti-Semite.
But certainly, you know, thecommunity has been looking for
reassurance and support in a waythat they felt they haven't
(10:36):
gotten it, and the oppositionhas offered what a lot of people
want, which is that sort ofunwavering support, that
elevating the issues ofanti-Semitism and support for
Israel to the sort of dailypolitical cycle and I've written
a few articles for the JewishIndependent about it and I've
(10:56):
always been careful that, like Idon't want to be someone who
says just, you're wrong andyou're wrong to think this or
feel this way, because the waythat the Australian Jewish
community feels is verylegitimate, given the
experiences that we've all gonethrough since October 7.
But I think for me, like it'simportant not to lose sight of,
(11:17):
like I have a lot of friends whoI met in my oldest days through
the World Union of JewishStudents, like who were student
leaders at the time in you knowEurope, in the UK, in Germany,
in France, in America even therewas a guy in Turkey.
Like I've seen what they'vebeen posting since October 7, as
well, and like there's nothingkind of there's unique aspects
(11:39):
to what Australian Jews havegone through, but there's also
common experiences and I thinkJewish communities right around
the world are feeling this aswell.
So I think Australia is stillone of the best places in the
world to be Jewish and one ofthe safest places, and I think
we need to be active and engagedcitizens, which we always have
(11:59):
been, but we don't want tobecome kind of insulated or
stuck in a corner where we'rejust part of the conservative
establishment or just part ofthe Liberal Party, which is not,
again, not to disrespect theLiberal Party or not to attack
them for supporting the Jewishcommunity, it's just to say like
we have to be engaged with theprogressive side of politics as
(12:20):
well.
Labor is one of the two partiesof government it's the party
that's in government right nowfederally and in most states
Victoria and New South Waleswhere most of the Jewish
community of Australia lives.
So like we have to have arelationship with that party as
well.
And as you said in your intro,dash, there's a long and proud
history of Jewish Australiansbeing involved in labor and
(12:41):
getting elected to parliamentfor labor, and so you know, I
want to stay involved with thosepeople and to work with those
people.
And I think, like every Jewishperson who feels ideologically
that they're more a Labor personthan a Liberal person, like I
want Labor to listen to them,but I also want them to feel
like they can still be engagedwith Labor and hopefully vote
(13:03):
Labor.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Jack, I'm interested in your experience of the
post-October 7th climate.
Obviously, you are a member ofand affiliated with, the Liberal
Party.
As Dean said, peter Dutton hasbeen unequivocal, unconditional
in his support for Israel andfor his really pushing of action
(13:25):
on anti-Semitism, at least inhis rhetoric.
I'm interested in, given thatyou're from that side of
politics, how you've looked uponall of this and a response from
you to what you've just heardfrom Dean's perspective.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
I might just start with the response to what Dean
said first, because it's fresherin my mind.
I don't look at what'shappening inside the ALP with
any degree of relish.
I'm not one of those peoplewho's in politics for the blood
sport.
I think it is.
It is I say this in sorrow,more in sorrow than in anger but
the quavering of the ALP overthe last 18 months has been
(14:06):
incredibly heart-rending to see.
As a Jewish Australian, tothink about how we have gone
from a position where, forinstance, as Dean mentioned,
julia Gillard, who was a strongsupporter of the state of Israel
and of the Jewish community inAustralia, to an ALP which now
has a foreign ministermentioning Israel in the same
breath as Russia and China, isdeeply disturbing to me.
(14:26):
Again, I say this more insorrow than in anger, but I ask
myself how did it get here?
I think in large part.
Dean.
I mean, I would say Dean ispart of the solution to this
problem in that he is activelyengaged in this party.
One of the things that I thinkwe should probably say right off
the bat here and I think Deanwould agree with this is that
political parties areamalgamations of their members.
(14:48):
They represent the interests oftheir members.
They represent the values oftheir members.
It's things you are able tochange the policy platforms of
political parties throughjoining, having those
(15:11):
discussions, having thosearguments.
I mean, how do you think theALP changed from a position
where it was staunchlypro-Israel a period of not even
40 years ago to the positionthat they find themselves now?
And you would actually identifyspecific individuals who have
joined the party or engaged inthe party's processes to bring
those outcomes in.
So you know, I don't think thatthe ALP, I don't believe that
(15:33):
there's too many members of theALP who are institutionally
anti-Semitic, but I think thatthe instincts of the ALP are not
as finely honed in this respectas they should be.
And I mean that in the sensethat, like when something like
anti-Semitism at universities,which has been a persistent
problem in Australia since the7th of October, when something
(15:56):
like that comes up, the instinctof the Labor Party wasn't to
get on top of this stuffimmediately, you know, insist
that the Education StandardsAuthority and other regulators
get involved here.
It was to sort of deny that itwas as big a problem as we
thought it was and only sort ofafter a concerted campaign and I
would call out the work herespecifically of Julian Lisa,
(16:17):
who's been fantastic in thissort of area to bring this
matter to the attention ofpolicymakers and ministers.
Did they actually start lookinginto this issue and looking at
it more systemically than sortof casual glances?
You know, I should sort of comeback to your question.
It's not a difference inrespect necessarily of like
(16:37):
these people are anti-Semitic.
I don't think that's the casefor an awful lot of the Labor
Party.
I think the issue is is thatthe Liberal Party instinctually
understands what's going on herewith Jewish Australians a lot
better, and I think that'spartially because there's more
Jewish people who are members ofthe Liberal Party and that we
can have an argument about whythat is.
You know, there's an awful lotof people in my part of the
(16:58):
world who are members of theLiberal Party, but then it's
historically been a liberal seatnot at the moment.
So it could be economic or itcould be simply that we're
seeing the development of theway in which migrant communities
sort of migrate from the LabourParty towards the coalition
after the second or thirdgeneration, and those are sorts
of more academic arguments oracademic discussions to be had.
But if you ask me what myexperience has been inside the
(17:22):
Liberal Party.
It has been much, much moresupportive.
As a Jewish person, I won't saythere hasn't been things that
have concerned me.
I was at a pre-selection notsix months ago where one of the
people putting their hand up forpre-selection it was a state
pre-selection as well, by theway.
It didn't make much sense to methat he would do this, but they
had said that they were, youknow, for Palestinian
independence, which you know youcan be for or against.
(17:44):
But to put it up as a thing instate pre-selection, I think was
a deliberate dog whistle and Idon't think people really
responded well to that insidethe room.
So these are the sorts ofthings which you would find
differently.
If a person went to an ALPpre-selection and said I support
Palestinian independence, it'slikely to be a vote winner.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Dean, would you agree with that?
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Well, I think it depends where you are in the
country.
Like I live in McNamara, whichis this unique electorate.
I wonder if, like the Jewishcommunity, realises just how
strange and unique thiselectorate is, that we have this
like 10% Jewish character andin a sense, not that different
to Wentworth, where you have astrong Jewish community in a
(18:28):
seat that well, wentworth was,as he said, historically a safe
liberal seat and now it's heldby a teal independent but, like
McNamara, has been a labor seatsince it was called Melbourne
Ports in the 1900s and it was aworking class electorate.
But now it's a sort of affluent, progressive, educated inner
(18:48):
city electorate with lots ofyoung people, lots of renters,
all of which sort of point to itbeing a progressive seat.
But then you also have 10% to12% of the electorate who are
Jewish.
So Jewish issues, anti-semitismin Israel, play a big role in
this seat, and that was the casewhen Michael Danby was the MP
and obviously it's been the caseespecially since October 7.
(19:09):
All of which goes to say you'reright that the Labor Party
membership as a whole have amore ideologically pro-Palestine
perspective than the membershipof the Liberal Party, and it
would be different if you're inthe Corfu branch of the Labor
Party which has a lot of Jewishpeople who've been members of
the party for a long time.
(19:31):
You know, josh Burns' campaign,just as Michael's campaign
before, has become a bit of abreeding ground for sort of
student leaders for more, justto get involved in politics and
youth movements, which is great.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
They absolutely should Look.
I think, dean, you and I wouldprobably be on a unity ticket
here when we'd say the mostimportant thing that people can
do is join the political partythat you know most aligns to
their views.
You know, if they're young andthey're Jewish, I would
encourage them to look at everypolitical party, with one or two
exceptions, because I may notbe welcome there, but political
(20:04):
parties being amalgamations oftheir members.
If they join and they stickwith it and they have those
discussions with people and theydemonstrate that there's a
constituency here that is beingignored by the party or that
there's a constituency that isgoing to be there and be
involved.
And it strikes me asinteresting that you go to a
pre-selection or you go to aparty meeting.
You get to decide the directionof the party.
(20:25):
These parties are institutionalinside Australia, despite
reports of their demise.
You get to choose the directionthat the party moves in.
You get to select the candidatethat goes into and becomes, you
know, the member of parliament.
And what concerns you is whatshould concern them.
If they're a half decentpolitician, they will listen to
(20:45):
the people who are around them,who control their pre-selection
and who drive the policy thatcomes out of the parties.
I think that the most importantthing that you can do,
especially in a country likeAustralia where society hasn't
broken politics isn't broken yet.
You can see it's sort offracturing in some respects but
the most important thing you cando is join a political party.
(21:06):
It is astonishing to me thatthere is an awful lot of people
in our communities.
You want to complain aboutwhat's going on with politics in
Australia, yet my message toyou is go out and do something
about it.
If you're worried about theability for your family, your
children, your grandchildren tolive in this country, the most
effective thing that you can dois join a political party.
(21:27):
Be involved in the politicalprocess.
Hand out how to votes goletterboxing, show up to events.
Make your issues the issues ofpoliticians.
Now, I know that means a lot ofJewish people may be
predisposed towards thecoalition parties, but I'm
hoping this message reachespotential Labour Party members
as well.
You know it might seem daunting, it might seem difficult, but
(21:48):
there are people like Dean outthere who can help you get
involved in these sorts oforganisations, and they are the
only thing that is going tochange systemically politics in
Australia.
There's nothing else.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Dean Jack, I'm interested in what you both make
of the fact that the share ofthe votes that the Labor and
Liberal parties have beengetting really for the last
three, four decades has beendeclining and we are now at a
point where the primary votethat Labor and Liberal will
(22:26):
likely get at this next federalelection will be, if not, the
same as what we would expect forall the other third parties and
independents combined.
So Australians are increasinglychoosing not to vote with Labor
or Liberal but are dividingtheir loyalties across a whole
range of small parties, microparties, the Greens and
(22:48):
independents.
Really interested in what youboth make of that and also what
that might mean for Jewishcommunity interests Because, as
we know, and no doubt one of youwill get to it, we have seen a
radically different approachfrom the Australian Greens to
(23:09):
issues that are of great concernto the Jewish community.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
I mean, I've thought about this a lot.
I think for me there was aninteresting moment when Fatima
Payman, who was the Laborsenator in WA, she was elected
third on Labor's ticket in WAbecause Labor did incredibly
well in WA the last election andshe quit the party, basically
to cross the floor on a motion,I think, to recognise
(23:36):
Palestinian statehood.
Labor voted no because Labordoesn't support Senate motions
dictating foreign policy toitself.
Obviously, labor hasn't yetrecognised Palestine as a state.
But you know, payman quit theparty.
She said she wanted to be ableto speak her mind and I saw in
that moment a lot of thecommentary and a lot of the like
(23:58):
social media, the TikToks, thereels that you see from
influencers in the kind ofprogressive world and from young
people about like, well, whywon't Labor let this woman speak
her mind?
And even just like, putting theissue aside like, labor has a
long tradition of collectivedecision making.
It's a party that was born fromthe trade union movement that
(24:19):
was sort of you know, and theconcept of a trade union is that
workers band together.
They're stronger together, theywork together to use their
collective power so that theirbosses can't exploit them to get
better pay and workingconditions.
And the Labor Party similarlybelieves that, like you join the
party, you debate in internalforums, you debate in the caucus
(24:41):
room or at the party conferencepolicies, but you know, when
you present a united frontagainst your opponents the
conservatives, the liberal andnational parties and, yes,
increasingly the Greens andother parties as well All of
this kind of goes to say that, Ithink, like the world's
changing, younger generations,even progressives in younger
generations, don't necessarilyhave an appreciation for that
(25:04):
concept that, like a movement isstronger if people put aside
their differences, present aunited front.
And, like you know, laborcurrently represents a majority
in the parliament and thatincludes seats like McNamara,
where I am.
It includes another like ahistoric liberal seat in Higgins
, which has been abolished, but,like you know, the people of
(25:25):
Torak and Malvern and Armidalewho had never voted Labor in
their lives or never electedLabor in their lives.
And it also represents, youknow, rural mining communities
in the Hunter Valley and youhave these different communities
.
Some of them are affluent andconcerned about climate change
and some of them havehistorically built their towns
around coal mining.
(25:46):
And trying to bring all thoseperspectives together and
present a united front and anagenda that appeals to and looks
after the interests of allthese different communities
around the country.
That's, I think, a big part ofwhat it means to be in a major
party.
So one of the trends that Ithink is like I just think young
people are looking forpoliticians to be a lot like the
(26:08):
influencers they follow onInstagram or TikTok like to be
unfiltered, to be authentic, torepresent what they think and
what they believe, and theycan't kind of get it into their
heads that there's actuallyinherent value in a major party
being representative ofdifferent communities that have
very different views and tryingto.
(26:29):
You know, like that's whatgoverning is about, right?
I just think that, like, asthere's more choice and more
diversity and people are lesstied to like, younger
generations don't have the sameviews.
They consume media differently,they think differently.
Our attention spans have allbeen shortened by social media
(26:50):
and the internet, and peopledon't read the newspaper like
they used to, that watch the sixo'clock news the way they used
to.
So the whole world's beendisrupted, right, and I think
it's just natural that that'simpacting politics as well.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Jack, what do you think about that fragmentation
and, as a Jewish man that isactively involved in your party,
what does it?
Speaker 3 (27:11):
concern you.
So, look, I think there's acouple of things we have to
understand structurally aboutthe way that voting is conducted
in Australia.
The first is that there's acompulsory distribution of
preferences.
It's not necessarily who youput first, it's who you put last
, which is in a compulsorydistribution of preferences
model, means that your vote isnever going to go to the person
(27:31):
you preference last.
It'll go to the person youpreference second last.
Last It'll go to the person youpreference second last.
And that's a very, veryimportant point, because a
person who, for whatever reason,is upset with the Labor Party
might vote for a variety ofprogressive parties before the
Labor Party, but give theirsecond to last preference to the
Labor Party and their lastpreference to the Liberal Party,
knowing full well that theirvote is never going to go to the
(27:52):
Liberal Party and potentiallyelect a Liberal candidate.
How then does that square withthe perpetual loss of Liberal
seats over?
I should point out the last,like it's close to 15 years, 15
years, 12 years at least?
There's been a sort of aprogressive drip away from
Liberal Party seats, startingwith country seats like Indi
Mayo, moving into inner cityseats, warringah.
(28:14):
I think a large part of this isthe Liberal Party base, and I
mean this not in the sense ofthe party membership, but I mean
this in the sense of the peoplewho vote for the Liberal Party.
It's a reaction of the LiberalParty base to the individual
personalities and some of thepolicies that the Liberal Party
has been bringing forward, andit's disappointing to see that
(28:34):
An awful lot of the people wholost their seats at the last
election would have been thesorts of people to rein in the
more excessive elements of theLiberal Party.
You know, as we operate inopposition, that said, it's the
will of the people.
They have made that decision.
It's not enough to simply say,well, they're misguided or
they're mistaken.
But I think, if you look at themacro concerns people tend to,
(29:02):
if they know they can vote as aprotest against a major
political party, knowing thattheir vote will still elect the
member of the party that willform government, they can do
that.
But your vote is your vote.
If enough people decide thatthey wanted to vote for a
specific independent or minorparty candidate, they'll get up.
That's how it is.
That's how the system works.
How does it make me feel?
Well, look, I think and I dohave to touch on this.
I do think I've got someopinions about how the Greens
(29:25):
have acted, specifically sinceOctober 7.
But it's let's just say it'sthe reaping of a crop which was
fertilized well before October 7.
Say it's the reaping of a cropwhich was fertilized well before
October 7.
We are dealing with a Greenspolitical party and I know that
that's a specific talking pointthat both the ALP and the
(29:46):
Liberal Party use.
They are a political partywhich are deeply anti-Semitic.
In my view, they are a partywhich has the language of
progressive anti-racism, whilstbeing some of the worst racists
I have ever seen in Australianpolitics.
There is no other party inAustralia, to my knowledge, that
(30:07):
has literally demonised Jews,and I use that word.
I don't like using the wordliterally, but when a state
member of parliament, jennyLeong, sits in front of a crowd
of people, it's not privatethoughts, this is public
expressions and says that Jewishpeople have tentacles and those
tentacles reach intoprogressive areas.
(30:35):
No-transcript, awful pro-formermea culpa that came afterwards
was pathetic and the silencefrom Greens leaders state and
federal was deafening.
It was the most shameful eventI have ever seen in Australian
(30:58):
polity.
You know it was the sort ofthing that you would see out of
1930s Germany, it's all thosesorts of things.
And the point about anyonethinking that the Greens are
simply an environmental movementand it's, you know, this is
just social justice or you know,progressive.
It's not.
It's sustained and systemic andit sits inside the Greens, it
(31:21):
exists inside the Greens as analmost article of faith.
You know, I note that justyesterday it appears that the
Greens are starting to comb theranks of those, you know,
anti-israel activists that wereactive on university campuses to
fill out their candidate lists.
It doesn't surprise me.
It does not surprise me.
Candidate lists it doesn'tsurprise me.
It does not surprise me and Ithink that the point is is that
(31:47):
people are waking up to this.
In the last local governmentelections, which aren't a great
analogue for federal elections,but the Greens went backwards in
places that they havetraditionally been very strong
in.
The Greens actually have a hugevote in seats where Jewish
people tend to hang out.
So they have a higher vote inWentworth, a higher vote in
McNamara, a higher vote inKingswood Smith On the leafy
North Shore of Sydney.
Their vote is in excess oftheir state average, which is
(32:09):
about 11%.
All those seats that I'vementioned, all those areas that
I've mentioned.
They're in the mid to highteens and if I was the Greens
and I was running their campaignGod help me I would be deeply
concerned about the way in whichtheir radicalism has led them
to a point where people arerejecting them at the local
(32:30):
government level which they havebeen.
They're losing seats at thelast state local council
elections and they should.
There should be a politicalconsequence to anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And yet, jack, the irony is that they may well be
elected in McNamara, in the seatthat we've been talking about,
the Jewish seat in Melbournethat Dean lives in and that is
currently held by Labor's JoshBurns.
The irony is, they may wellknock Labor out and finally
(32:59):
claim that seat.
They've been knocking on thedoor of that seat for the last
few elections, and this could bethe one, couldn't it, dean?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Yeah.
So they got very close in 2016,which was Michael Damby's last
election, and they got prettyclose last time as well.
And the Greens' pathway to winthe seat is for Labor to finish
third and for them to getLabor's preferences.
So the irony is and the Jewishindependents covered this
(33:27):
Deborah Stone's written about it.
There have been a number ofother pieces going around the
community in the Jewish news aswell.
The sort of irony is that theJewish community's anger at
Labor could mean that Josh Burns, the incumbent Jewish MP, loses
votes to the Liberals and if hefalls behind the Greens, then
(33:47):
the Greens make the final twoand the majority of Labor voters
.
Anthony Green, erstwhile ABCelection expert, for those who
aren't familiar with him, he'sestimated that even on an open
ticket which Labor's runningwhich is a pretty historic thing
to not recommend preferences atall in McNamara I don't know of
(34:08):
Labor ever doing that anywherebefore.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Just on that, Dean, was that a bad call by Josh and
his team to not put the Greenslast and to leave it as an open
ticket?
Speaker 4 (34:19):
It's a complicated question and I think I don't
want to sound crass about it,like I think the strategy in
preferences is always aboutwinning right, and I say that in
the sense of, like, josh Burns'goal is to get re-elected, but
also Josh Burns gettingre-elected stops the Greens from
winning.
So it's kind of a double-edgedsword, I think, with preferences
(34:40):
, because I was just drivingdown Carlisle Street this
morning getting my morningcoffee before I came back to
join this call and I see thereare some posters that Extinction
Rebellion have put up accusingJosh Burns of helping the
Liberal Party win the electionbecause he's not preferencing
the Greens.
So the difficulty is that youcan alienate progressive voters
(35:03):
and if you lose votes to theGreens because you've sent a
signal that you'd prefer theLiberal Party to the Greens and
that alienates Labor's leftflank because of course only 10%
of McNamara is Jewish andprobably you know, the majority
of Labor voters in this seat aremore of the sort of progressive
St Kilda, elwood, southMelbourne, south Bank types, not
(35:25):
necessarily Caulfield,balaclava, bagel Belt types.
If it's just about taking astand against the Greens but
that actually helps the Greenswin, then I don't think it's
worth doing.
So I think the open ticket iskind of a way of saying well,
the voters will decide andthat's the democratic way of
doing it.
And you know, like we have torespect what the voters think
(35:47):
but like we can't necessarilytell people Obviously how to
vote are just recommendations.
But you can't necessarilyconvince a progressive Labor
voter to put the Greens lastjust because you say they're
anti-Semitic Outside the Jewishcommunity.
I think in seats like this mostpeople will be voting on the
usual issues climate change,housing, cost of living, the
(36:11):
economy.
They're not going to bethinking about anti-Semitism or
Israel.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
So all of which goes to say, like I would say, that
social cohesion is somethingthat people are concerned about.
You know, when you're seeinganti-Semitism in the way it's
formulated itself in Australia,they would be concerned about it
.
I would agree with you in thesense that, like running an open
ticket, is a signal.
I would also say that puttingthe grains last is a stronger
signal.
The particularities that Joshhas in his seat are not entirely
(36:37):
familiar to me.
I am a Sydney Jew.
The point is that Josh has inhis seat are not entirely
familiar to me.
I am a Sydney Jew.
The point is that people's voteis their vote.
You know you can recommendstuff to them and I would
recommend to every one of yourlisteners, if they are listening
, if they are planning onputting the Greens anything
other than last.
I think that's wrong, I think,at this election.
I believe that there aresystemic problems inside the
(36:59):
Greens and I think that theyshould go backwards in terms of
seats.
Now, another problem I thinkwe're sort of focusing on here
is, you know what is it that?
The Jewish community?
What influence does the Jewishcommunity have electorally?
Well, you know we like to talkabout Jewish seats.
The reality is, is that even inWentworth, which is the most
Jewish people in the country.
It's still, you know, a longminority.
(37:20):
I mean even with a generousinterpretation of, you know, vos
Mastah Yidden, you're lookingat maybe 20% of the seed.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
I think 16%, the last figure I saw.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Yeah.
So I mean, look, there'shistoric underreporting of Jews
in the census.
There's historic underreportingfor a lot of different reasons
and that one would suggest thatit might be one in five at the
most.
And you know, it is to mychagrin having one run and one
elections here at all threelevels in this part of Sydney.
Yeah, jewish stuff is important, but there is a whole lot of
(37:52):
people out there you know, fourin every five who are not Jewish
and don't necessarily think theway that we do.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
If people are worried about the Greens winning the
seat and this is the kind ofmessage that Josh and other
people have been making is likeputting the Greens last is not
necessarily enough, because ifLabor gets less primary votes
than the Greens, theoverwhelming likelihood is the
Greens will win.
So if you are and obviously Ihope people vote for Josh Burns
(38:22):
because he's been a goodrepresentative of the community
and he's stuck his neck out alot over the last three years,
and particularly since October 7, for the Jewish community and
for Israel in a way that fewothers have done.
But if that doesn't get youover the line, like voting one
for Josh and then putting theGreens last is actually the most
(38:43):
strategic way to ensure thatthe Greens don't win.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
We talk about strategic voting.
Fortunately, we don't have thatreally here in Australia
because we don't use afirst-past-the-post system.
You know, I would say everyoneshould be voting one Liberal,
and that's naturally where I'mcoming from.
I'm shocked to hear that.
Jack, yeah, I know right, heylisten.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
it's remarkable, jack .
Let's talk about Wentworth.
So currently held by theindependent member, allegra
Spender, who beats the previousLiberal Party member and former
ambassador to Israel, daveSharma, the Liberal Party is
back again throwing the bus atthis seat.
(39:23):
They have really, reallycampaigned very hard to win this
back.
They've got Roe Knox in and I'mobviously down in Melbourne so
I can't see it, but I understandthat Wentworth certainly the
Jewish part of Wentworth at themoment is just awash with blue.
The Jewish community has reallycome out in strong support of
Roe Knox.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Look just on the campaign here at the moment.
Yes, it's obviously a much moreactive campaign than we're used
to seeing.
I mean, I remember when I wasrunning campaigns here it was,
you know, against people whowere sort of very well-meaning,
but there wasn't any seriousopposition.
Now it's a marginal seat.
That's how it's categorised.
I would say it's a marginalseat.
That's how it's categorised.
I would say there's a couple ofthings, just in relation to the
(40:02):
redistribution, that haveprobably made it much harder for
the Liberal Party to win.
The redistribution pushes theseat into Woolloomooloo, which
is a lot more, you say, in acity.
There's a differentsocioeconomic.
Well, there's a lot of publichousing there.
Essentially, yeah, there is alot of public housing.
It makes it more difficult fora liberal candidate to win.
I think the uh.
(40:23):
When I ran the campaign in 2013, the only booth we didn't win
was willamaloo, so that was a.
Again, it's a very hard boothin respect to the liberal party.
I am upset by a specificnarrative that's coming out
about the teals that they'resomehow doing politics
differently.
All I see with teals is is thesame politics but in a different
(40:46):
color.
And what do I mean by that?
The decision that allegraspender took this term of
parliament.
Which energized the jewishcommunity more than anything
else was her decision to, alongwith other teal members, write
to the foreign minister aboutthe funding for the UN Relief
Works Agency, unrwa as it'sotherwise known, and this
decision, I think, was the wrongdecision.
(41:08):
I think it didn't understandexactly.
I mean, I think it's the wrongdecision to fund UNRWA, given
what we know now about itspersonnel and what it's been
doing in respective schools.
I think the decision to sort ofwrite in support of this
organisation deeply upset theJewish community.
The sort of fig leaf that wasgiven to the Jewish community
(41:30):
was well, you know, we're justconcerned about humanitarian
relief.
Well, unrwa doesn't provide asmuch humanitarian relief as you
know, the World Food Programme,for instance.
So I think this is a, it was amisstep by Allegra Spender that
took place about a year as muchhumanitarian relief as the World
Food Programme, for instance.
So I think this is a, it was amisstep by Allegra Spender that
took place about a year ago andit only was overturned, like she
(41:52):
only renounced her position onthis, you know, less than a
month ago in the lead up to theelection.
And again, it goes to instincts, the instincts of the Teals, it
appears, aren't in alignmentwith the Jewish community.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Dean, I picked up something earlier on in the
conversation, when you said thatJewish Australians have accused
Anthony Albanese of beinganti-Semitic and hates Israel,
and then you said I know him andhe's not anti-Semitic, but you
didn't say he doesn't hateIsrael.
Was that you choosing yourwords carefully or you just
forgot to add that?
Speaker 4 (42:22):
bit.
No, I don't think he hatesIsrael either.
I don't think Penny Wong hatesIsrael, believe it or not.
I think they are both obviouslymore critical of Israel than
you know.
The Jewish community feels verydefensive of Israel all the
time, but obviously especiallyso since October 7.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
I know you were on a bit of a texty-texty basis with
Albo.
I saw him yesterday, did you?
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Actually, as it happens, okay, nothing to do
with the Jewish community, buthe visited a social housing site
that one of our clients builtwith federal funding.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Okay, so you bumped into him.
We waved to each other Okay,you don't cuddle.
Speaker 4 (43:03):
No, well, it was just enough that we kind of
acknowledged each other fromacross the hall.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Are you his token Jewish friend, or does he have a
few?
Speaker 4 (43:12):
I think there are a few.
I don't know if I should namenames.
There are some Jewish communityleaders that I've spoken to
who've been speaking to him alot as well.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
You wrote a piece for the Jewish Independent in
defense of Anthony Albanese.
He read that piece, I believe,and he contacted you afterwards.
He did.
What did he say?
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Well, he did read the piece.
So it was a piece about theOctober 7 one-year anniversary
event in Melbourne which heattended.
It was a very long event but hecame early, he stayed, he sat
through the whole thing andthere were a few people who
objected to him going, whosigned petitions that he
(43:53):
shouldn't be invited, there werepeople who kind of heckled him
not that many and there was acomment made on the stage about
the government's failure ofleadership and things which got
some applause.
So I wrote an article saying weshould be appreciative that the
Prime Minister of Australiawanted to spend four or five
hours of his time on the eve ofa sitting week listening to our
(44:16):
stories and our experiencessince October 7, listening to,
you know, relatives of hostages,relatives of people who were
killed in the October 7 attacks.
That's a good thing that theprime minister wants to listen.
And yeah, he, this is anexclusive for the Ashamed to
Admit podcast.
Anthony Albanese read the JewishIndependent and he called me
(44:38):
just to say thank you.
I won't necessarily go into thewhole conversation
Conversations should remainprivate but he was appreciative
of the sentiment and it wasimportant to him that he went to
the event and he understoodthat there was anger in the
community, but he still thoughtthat it was the right thing, as
Prime Minister, for him to bethere with the Jewish community
(44:59):
on the anniversary of October 7.
Conversations I've had with himlike he genuinely does care
about the rise of antisemitismin this country and we can
criticize whether he's doneenough or whether the
government's done enough, buthe's not an antisemite, trust me
.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I don't think there's many elected politicians in
Australia who are antisemites.
I can't say there are none.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Okay, prediction time .
Who wants to go first?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
I'll just say minority government.
You know, but you can't dictatewhich way things are going to
go once negotiations start for aminority government.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Right, so you think it could be a minority
government Labor, minoritygovernment Liberal?
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Look, it would be the independent members, not just
the Teals.
By the way, that there's otherindependent members like Dai Lei
and Andrew Wilkie and BobCatter.
They're going to play theircards close to their chest.
I think they're all going to beled in negotiations by Andrew
Wilkie because he's been therebefore and he was extremely
disappointed by the Labor Partyback when he endorsed them first
(45:58):
in 2010.
But it's going to be a hungparliament and that's going to
be incredibly frustrating.
My prediction is for the nextterm of parliament to be a lot
more confrontational than we'veseen.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
Okay, Dean Sher, you're a bit more optimistic
than Jack.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
If I was a gambling man and I was a month ago,
because I think Labor was about$2.60 with sports bet and I
thought that's worth a bit of abet and they're now about $1.30.
So and the Liberals have blownout to something like $4, $5.
So the polls nationally aremoving towards Labor.
I think the latest ones havebeen either 52, 48 or 53, 47.
(46:34):
So I think Labor will holdgovernment.
Whether that's minority ormajority is still unclear.
I think majority is back in theconversation now that it maybe
didn't seem like it was a monthago.
But I think it's sort of justnotable that the Jewish
community is experiencing thiselection very differently than
the rest of the population.
(46:55):
I think Peter Dutton'sstruggling with the broader
population, but he's clearlystill resonating with the Jewish
community, and I think we'llsee the Jewish community get in
strongly behind the LiberalParty in the seats that we've
spoken about.
But I don't think that that'sgoing to make that much of a
difference.
I suspect Allegra will holdWentworth, precisely as Jack
(47:17):
said, because the redistributionprobably dilutes the Jewish
community's influence even moreso, and I think either Labor or
the Greens will win McNamara.
I'll still pick Josh Burns towin it, but I certainly don't
think the Liberals will.
I think it'll be interesting tosee how that all washes out,
and how does the Jewishcommunity engage with what I
think will be a second termAlbanese government All right On
(47:39):
that note, it's been greathearing your perspectives and
your experiences.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
I really have appreciated what I've heard
today.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
I just wanted to thank you for that conversation.
I only tuned out three timesand I thought, if we're going to
be here for an hour, I wasthinking, you know once every
five minutes, but three times inan hour.
Can someone do the maths?
Speaker 3 (48:03):
20 minutes.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, pretty good, pretty good.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
I would have hoped you hadn't tuned out at all, but
I mean that's.
I guess politics isn'teveryone's everything.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Dean Sher Jack Pinchewski.
Thank you so much for joiningus in the studio for this a
shame to admit election special.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Thank you.
Thank you, Tammy SussmanDashiell, Lawrence, Dean Sher.
It's a pleasure.
Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
You've been listening to the election special episode
of Ashamed to Admit, with meTammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (48:35):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than a democracy
sausage.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
me and Dash's fill in next week.
Thank you.
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