June 2, 2025 • 42 mins
Ahead of his appearance at this year's Limmud Oz, Sydney-based psychotherapist, leadership coach and all-around mensch, Brandon Srot, chats with Tami and Dash about saying sorry, broiges and what he calls the "privilege of a lifetime"
Plus, Brando discusses the challenges of therapy in the world after October 7 and reveals his (not so shameful) shame.
See Tami & Dash in a LIVE recording of Ashamed to Admit at Limmud Oz Melbourne Sunday, 8 June.
Note on this episode: When asked what he wished clients would do more of, Brando spoke to "putting oneself on the line" and seeing oneself as "part of the traffic," meaning, seeing what it is that one brings to a situation. While he was thinking about interpersonal and relational challenges when answering the question, Brando recognises that his reply can be misunderstood outside of its context and wants to emphatically stress that this may not be relevant to incidents of trauma, abuse, violence or loss.
Articles relevant to this episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/limmud-oz-program-highlights
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/a-nation-still-enveloped-by-suffocating-trauma
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you interested in how Jewish therapists have been
navigating the emotional,ethical and political dilemmas
that have surfaced in therapyrooms since October 7th?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
And do you find it hard to apologise for things
that you've said and done?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
If you answered yes to one or both of those
questions, then you've come tothe right place.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Dashua Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in today's episode, your thirdcousin, tammy Swisman, and I
will be talking to a Jewishpsychotherapist, leadership
development facilitator anall-round community gem.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Who knows if he'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of this TJIpodcast and we seem to be
dropping our shame.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Some of us more than others, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewyand dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Hello, I'm Dash.
Would you like a lift from theairport this weekend, Lawrence?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
And I'm Tammy.
That would be lovely.
Thank you, sussman Dash.
That's really generous of you.
I'll send you my flight details.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, I will have to do it now, won't I, given that
that's been put out there on air?
Yeah, sure, send me yourdetails, and if I can't do it,
I'll send a driver.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay, I would like a pink Hummer.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Can't do that.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That's the vibe I'm bringing to Limwood.
Ask the executive director ofthe Jewish Independent for
approval for that purchase.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Claim has been denied .
Speaker 1 (01:58):
By the way, how is the promo going for Limwood this
weekend?
And I don't mean on yoursocials, which you're terrible
at, I mean in your family groupchat.
Is your partner coming?
Your partner's sister?
Your partner's parents?
Who's coming?
Who am I meeting?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Look, limud Oz is just one of those events in the
Jewish community that is on mycalendar, locked in every year.
If you love a gathering ofspeakers, be they cultural,
academic, fun, political,comedic, You're taking this down
(02:38):
a promo line.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
That's not where I was going with this.
I want to know who you'vereached out to.
Who is coming to see us live?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I don't have anyone coming to see us live Right.
All I know is that there are alot of people out there have
come up to me in the last coupleof weeks and said, seen the
program, seen the schedule, I'mgoing to be there and I've said
great, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Not good enough.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What do you want me to do?
Like wear a big billboard andgo out onto the streets of
Caulfield over the next few daysand promote.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's not what I'm asking, dash.
I'm asking for you to reach outto the people in your WhatsApp
groups.
Everyone knows that that's howyou close a deal.
You book tickets through aWhatsApp group.
You're not doing it throughInstagram.
You're not doing it throughFacebook, through billboards.
It's going to be in Susie'sfamily group chat Now.
(03:37):
We have been besties for over ayear now and I've only met
Susie over our recordingsoftware.
I've not met her in person.
So what's going on?
Will I see her there?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Probably not, because I expect she'll be in the
depths of toilet training thatweekend and you remember what
that's like.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And her parents.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
They're also going to be away that weekend.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
And their synagogue choir.
I'll bring someone, Someone.
He says One person.
This is just unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I'm a busy man, what can I say?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I'm really pulling more than my fair share of
weight here.
You're not hustling hard enough.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I know, I know.
So Tammy clearly is trying toconcoct some conflict, because
on today's show we'll bediscussing the art of apologies
and therapy.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Two big themes in my life and possibly in yours.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Brandon Srot is our guest today.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Brandon Srot is a Sydney-based psychotherapist who
specialises in working withtrauma, grief and loss, personal
discovery and relationshipstherapy.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Brandon also delivers leadership development programs
for people and organisationsacross Australia and beyond.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Today we're getting a little teaser for the sessions
he'll be running at Limwood Ozin Melbourne this weekend.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Just a little reminder that Tammy and I will
also be there.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
But for now, enjoy this chat with big macher
himself, Brandon Schrott.
Brandon Schrott, welcome to theAshamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Hello, I'm so honoured to be here with you
both and all of your listeners.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Brando, we are so honoured to have you in the
studio today.
Tammy, just mentioned in yourbiography, you essentially work
in what's called the humandevelopment sector, or movement.
Like you, are someone who Ithink is fundamentally devoted
to making human beings healthier, happier, more functional in
(06:00):
different ways, whether it's inthe workplace or through your
work one-on-one with clients.
My hypothesis is you developedsome of these skills and these
interests in working with humanbeings through being a Jewish
youth movement leader.
Is that right?
Tell me if I've kind ofmisdirected that.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, it's a great question and a wonderful
reflection and I think you'vehit the nail on the head.
I often say, as do many of myfriends and colleagues, that our
youth movement trainingcertainly outweighs any other
sort of formal training that wedid in life.
And yeah, I think it's verytrue for me.
I mean, I grew up in HabonimDror.
(06:42):
I'm a very proud graduate ofHabo.
You're a Habo boy, I'm a Haboboy.
Yes, through and through.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
We have a few non-Jewish listeners.
Are you able to just give alittle overview of what Habo is?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Habo is the short term of endearment for Habonim
Dror, which is a global Jewishsocialist Zionist youth movement
.
Yeah, that really has centersall over the world and it's all
about Jewish education, Zionisteducation, youth empowerment and
it's just a wonderful space foryoung people.
And, yeah, I spent many yearsin the movement and I think that
(07:17):
is really where I sort ofdiscovered my passion for
education, for facilitation, forinformal learning, for human
development, for what happenswhen people come together in
safe, nourishing spaces, whatcan emerge between people when
their common values at play.
And yeah, I think it reallyopened a whole new world to me
(07:37):
of possibility which has really,I don't know, set me into a
particular course in my life Didyou grow up as quite a sort of
sensitive boy?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
In some of our encounters in the past I
immediately sensed someone withgreat sensitivity and really a
very good antenna forunderstanding people and great
intuition for other human beings, which is a rare gift, brandoo.
I'm imagining this has been acore characteristic of yours as
long as you've been.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You've been alive well, firstly, I'm very moved to
hear that.
So thank you for your very kindwords.
I do think I was a sensitivechild and I still think I'm a
sensitive adult.
I'm a sensitive person and Ithink I have a lot of pride in
that actually, because I thinkthat with sensitivity comes an
attunement to other people andtheir emotions, their
(08:29):
experiences in life, their needs.
So, yeah, I take a lot of pridein being sensitive.
I think, unfortunately, in ourcurrent culture perhaps there's
a sense that, oh gosh, you knowthat's like fragile if you're
sensitive.
But I take real pride in beingsensitive, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Brandon, listeners will detect in your accent a
South African accent.
Yeah, and I am wondering, assomeone who I think grew up in
the 1980s and 1990s a little bitin South Africa and maybe a
little bit in Australia, how wasit to be that sensitive boy?
(09:07):
Because society has changed itsview around boys and
sensitivity and there's perhapsmore acceptance of, you know,
diverse personalities andcertainly there is not that
Shame yeah, shame around.
I certainly felt it growing upas a sensitive boy.
Shame about being, you know,not being tougher or harder.
(09:30):
Was that your experience in thekind of cultural context you
grew up in?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah, I think in South Africa you know, I grew up
in the, as you said, in the 80sand 90s there was, and maybe
still is, a particularmasculinity in the culture and
it was, I would say at the timeat least, one of real dominance,
given what was happeningpolitically in the country at
the time too, and sort of powerover others.
(09:57):
I do feel very blessed in a waythat I don't feel like my
sensitivity was ever the sort ofobject of disdain or challenge.
I was probably more contendingwith my sexuality more than my
sensitivity, and I get thatthere's a Venn diagram happening
there too and they areinterrelated.
(10:18):
But you know I was neverovertly antagonized or bullied
for being sensitive or fordealing with my sexuality.
I wasn't out as a child, I wasa young person, but I'm sure
everyone knew at the time.
So there was nothing overt.
I think it was more sort ofcontending with myself and maybe
an inner struggle, more thansomething from the out coming in
(10:39):
.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Brandon, or Brando as you're known to the people
close to you, and I'm going topretend to be one of those
people today because I'd like tobe closer.
Before we get into more seriousstuff in this interview, can
you please tell us what kind oftherapist you are?
Are you more of a let's talk itout kind of therapist, or a
(11:03):
let's sit in silence and stareinto the void until the
awkwardness gets too intense andclients just blurt things out?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Your question makes me laugh because I mean, you've
got to love these stereotypicaldepictions of therapy, right.
But look, in all seriousness, Idon't think I see them as
either.
Or I'm certainly like a let'stalk it out therapist, and I
would say I'm very much one whovalues and appreciates working
(11:34):
with silence, because I thinkthat silence is also a way of
communicating many importantdifferent things that we don't
necessarily communicate in words.
So when we're in silence orwhen we're sitting in silence,
we might be rememberingsomething, we might be
processing something, we mightbe feeling something, we might
(11:55):
even be trying to understandsomething.
So silence is also, I guess, aplace where we can gather our
thoughts and gather our words.
So I think there's a lot that'sactually that can happen in
silence, and I get to that.
You know, oftentimes silencecan be miscoded or just coded as
resistance or disinterest oreven a form of protest.
(12:17):
But I think that silence can bea way that we really also honor
the important material of ourlives.
So I think it can be reallyvaried and I think really the
skill or the trick is knowinghow to work with silence, how to
allow silence, how to hold it,how to speak to it, how to
unpack what it represents.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Thanks for that answer, brandon.
That was beautiful.
So the reason why we've broughtyou here is because both Dash
and I really like you and justwanted to spend more time with
you, but also to promote yourLimud session this weekend.
Your Limud session aboutforgiveness, saying sorry,
(13:01):
sounds both beautiful andbeautiful terrifying.
I'm curious to know why isapologizing so hard, even when
we know we're in the wrong?
And I ask this question assomeone who comes from a long
line of people who find itextremely difficult to apologize
(13:24):
.
It's it's Broigus central in myfamily.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
All right.
Well, firstly, I'm reallyintrigued that the topic, or the
session topic, is bothbeautiful and terrifying, but
maybe we can leave that foranother conversation.
I think, at its core, apology.
The process of apology, whendone meaningfully, is a very
vulnerable process and I thinkthat when we apologize we really
(13:51):
acknowledge to ourselves and toothers that we're imperfect,
that there's something inapology that recognizes that
we're flawed and that we'relimited.
We're human beings, we're notperfect creatures.
And in that recognition we areperhaps required to admit that
I've maybe hurt you or I'veoffended you, I've betrayed you,
(14:12):
I've misjudged you, maybe I'vedone something significant that
has really really come to hurtyou in some way.
And that's a really hard thingto do because it's hard for us,
just at the simplest level, toadmit that we got something
wrong or that we did somethingbad.
We don't like to admit that wegot something wrong or that we
did something bad.
We don't like to do that.
It can feel very exposing,especially when we are living in
(14:34):
a, in a culture, in a worldwhich tends to tell us to armor
up and to protect ourselves andto be gone, you know, to move
through the world with a bit ofprotection.
This can be very sort ofcounter-cultural to expose
ourselves, to want to then openourselves up to imperfection.
And I think too that oftentimeswe hide behind intent.
(14:56):
You know, oftentimes we'll hearpeople say things like oh, I
didn't intend to say that or Ididn't mean that.
And when it comes to apology,we're not actually interested in
intent, because apology isabout impact, and at some point
we can no longer hide behind theintent of what we had in mind.
But actually it's about theimpact.
(15:16):
What did my words or my actionsor my inactions or my silence
do to you or cause for you?
And that's what I mean aboutmeaningful apology.
It's about really reckoningwith the impact of what we've
done or not done.
And that can also be veryconfronting, especially for
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Well, that's the terrifying part.
You've just answered thequestion.
It's because it's so exposing.
It's like I would rather standcompletely naked in front of
someone and say here are myimperfections than here's how
I've hurt you.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yes, yes, and I guess there's something interesting
in that too, as you say that,because perhaps an apology or
that recognition with self isactually much more internal than
being seen naked.
It's a much deeper window intosomeone, I think.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, Dash.
Do you know what Broigus is?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I sure do.
Well, you know, I work with you, so I'm regularly finding
myself in forms of Broigus.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Broigus, so Dash, exists in a Jewish community, is
partnered with a Jewish womanraising Jewish kids, but did not
grow up in a Jewish family.
So that's why I'm asking thisquestion what does the word
broigus mean to you, dash?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Broigus, or the notion of disagreement with a
lot of heat, a lot of tension.
Conflict is probably a bettertranslation for it.
Am I right in saying that it'sa universal thing?
Better translation for it?
Am I right in saying that it'sa universal thing?
Right?
But I see what you're gettingat, tammy, and I'm curious to
know, with Brandon, as someonewho is Jewish is very much
(16:59):
embedded in the Jewish community, your practice, brando, is kind
of on the edge of the Jewishcommunity in Sydney, at least
geographically speaking, Iimagine.
I don't know.
A lot of your clients areJewish, yeah, so would you say
that we are when we're talkingthat there is a particular Is
there a particular brand ofJewish conflict?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
is what Dash is trying to ask you.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
And are they more prone to?
Are you more prone to havingthese conversations with your
Jewish clients than you are withyour non-Jewish clients?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So interesting.
Look.
I just want to say at theoutset that whenever I hear or
say the word Brueghus, it soundslike a term of endearment to me
for bronchitis.
Do you hear it at all?
I don't know.
There's some weird associationthere for me.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yiddish is just, I find endearing yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Interesting.
It's one of those Yiddish wordsthat hasn't really made its way
into the English language,vernacular in the way that, like
Klutz or Schlepp, has.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
My hypothesis is that no one else can do broigus as
well as the Jews.
To me, broigus doesn't justmean a heated argument or
conflict.
It means they're out, notinvited to the wedding.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well, I might have to gently challenge that
assumption.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Well, I would love to believe that broigus is maybe
culturally distinct to ourpeople.
Certainly the word or thelanguage is, or for it is might
be, at least From my perspective.
You know, I've probably workedwith hundreds and hundreds of
individuals and couples at thispoint in my clinical career from
all different sort of culturaland family systems and sadly
(18:42):
what I found is that it's notculturally distinct.
We might have our ownparticular ways of doing
conflict, but certainly I haveyet to encounter a system that
is immune to conflict.
And you know we have a word forit.
We call it broigus.
It's one of the words we mightuse to refer to it.
But you know, in other systemsit might just be called a feud
or a family secret or a cut-off,which you've sort of just
(19:05):
alluded to before.
And I just think that it's partof human nature that we have
conflict and we don't alwaysknow how to deal with it because
we're not trained there's nocourse, there's no school
subject on how to deal withinterpersonal conflicts or
family conflicts.
So we find all these differentways to try to manage it and
oftentimes it leads to a cutoffor to silencing or to
(19:27):
excommunicating someone or tonever talking about a particular
topic.
You know the elephants in theroom or all those sorts of
things.
So yeah, I think it's a bitmore universal than distinctly
Jewish.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And yet, in Jewish tradition, we are supposed to
take sorry quite seriously,aren't we?
Because there's even thisdeadline that we have every year
, and that's Yom Kippur.
So what wisdom can we borrowfrom the Jewish time frames when
it comes to repair, and do wehave to explain the word repair
(20:04):
to the boomers listening?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
listening.
Well, maybe just in case it'snot going to hurt anyone.
But yeah, repair is a lovelyterm that we use in the field
for I would say the coming backtogether or the restitching of
connection between people orgroups of people after a
(20:27):
conflict.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
A rupture.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Or a rupture.
Yeah, ruptures and repairs sortof go hand in hand.
And you know, some of theliterature will tell you, will
tell us that we should try torepair within at least 72 hours,
or a minimum of 72 hours aftera rupture.
Yeah, which is very, very hardto do.
But then you have the grace ofour Jewish calendar which says
(20:50):
you've got a rupture yeah, whichis very, very hard to do.
But then you have the grace ofour Jewish calendar which says
you've got a year, you know, atleast within 12 months or by 12
months, we should have thatconversation or make the attempt
to repair.
And yeah, I mean, I think insome ways we've sort of computed
this idea of Yom Kippur assaying sorry, and I won't give
(21:10):
away too much about my sessionat Limudaz, but it is that piece
that I'm really challenging inthe session.
That forgiveness and apology ismuch more than saying sorry.
Those who get to come to thesession will get to have sort of
an embodied experience of that.
Leave that to be a littlemysterious.
I like that embodied experienceof that.
(21:31):
I believe that to be a littlemysterious, I like that.
I do think too that there's likesome very beautiful, there's
some beautiful wisdom in theJewish tradition around apology,
around repair work, aroundforgiveness.
And I go to Emmanuel Synagoguein Sydney and in one of the
sanctuaries, above the ark, it'swritten know before whom you
stand.
I love this line.
(21:52):
I often think about it whendoing repair work, like my own
repair work in my ownrelationships, or when I'm
facilitating repair work withclients, because I think there's
a real wisdom in knowing beforewhom we stand, like know your
audience, who are you speakingto?
And I think sometimes when wecan see the humanity or even the
holiness in the people thatwe're speaking to, and I think
sometimes when we can see thehumanity or even the holiness in
the people that we're speakingto and trying to repair with, it
(22:14):
can soften a bit of our owndefensiveness in that moment and
it can open us up a little bitto a healthy, meaningful repair.
So I think there's a lot ofwisdom from within the Jewish
tradition and canon.
And you know, I think too aboutlike the word shema, listen.
It's sort of like not lost onme that the most central prayer
(22:35):
in our tradition begins withthis word, listen, and it's such
a hard thing to do.
And I think forgiveness andapology is as much about
listening as it is aboutactually talking and owning up
to you know, to what it is thatwe've done or that we're
apologising for.
Yeah, but how do we listen, youknow?
And one of my favourite prayersin Judaism is from the morning
(22:59):
prayers, and the Englishtranslation to this particular
prayer says blessed is the onewho spoke and brought the world
into being.
And I just love this idea thatwords create worlds and that our
world is created throughlanguage and speech and words.
And I think about that a lottoo.
When it comes to sort of repair, forgiveness, apology.
(23:22):
What are the words that we'reusing?
How are we speaking?
And we know that, you know,communication is only 7% about
the words and 93% about how weexpress and convey those words,
but I just think there's a lotthat we are bringing into being
and there's a lot that we arecreating through our words, and
we have a real opportunity therewhen we are requesting or
(23:43):
seeking forgiveness through ourwords.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
I'm so excited for this session.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
And I know why, tammy , because we've got some
repairing to do.
Don't we Tammy's birthday thisyear?
Brando, I forgot I was a daylate, oi, and I don't think
she's forgiven me since then,and I'm not sure that I fully
repaired.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I am genetically inclined to hold a grudge.
That's true, Brandon.
You have another Limud sessionas well.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I'm really curious to hear what comes up in this
conversation.
The three Jewish therapistsexplore the impacts of October
7th.
We all know that the Jewishcommunity has some terrific
psychologists, psychotherapists,psychiatrists.
It's innate to Jewish peoplethat working with the psyche is
(24:36):
part of the game.
So we've got yourself, vickyGordon and Julia Bloom to talk
about the experience of workingwith clients post-October 7th.
Experience of working withclients post-October 7th.
Tell us what kinds ofconversations have been
surfacing in the therapy in thesupervision room in the time
since October 7th 2023.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, well, I think that there's sort of three
distinct categories that I couldprobably bucket those into.
One very small bucket has beenthe clients who know that I'm
Jewish and who have in some waytried to reach out to me in the
therapy room in the therapysession to check in on me, like
(25:21):
how I'm doing, how my communityis, how my family is.
A lot of my clients know that Itravel to Israel regularly for
work so that they know thatthey're these connections to
what's unfolding.
And there might only be a few,but they are very, very special,
I think, in a way for reachingout and that's new, like that,
(25:42):
doesn't?
That never really happenedbefore with the sort of reaching
out in this way to me as atherapist in the room.
Then there has been a bit of abigger bucket of voices in the
room that are anti-Jewish andanti-Israel and that is very,
very difficult to.
I mean I'll talk more about thisin the session at Limudaz, but
(26:05):
it is very difficult as a Jewand as a Zionist to hold space
for that.
I've had to really grapple witha lot internally and really sit
on the edges of my tolerance andexamine what that means for me
and what it brings up for me andhow I show up in that and what
I do and what I don't do in that, how I show up in that and what
(26:28):
I do and what I don't do inthat.
And it's also been interestingin terms of how those sorts of
conversations have at timestaken me into a different role
in the therapy room.
So at times I've been sort ofseduced to want to go into, you
know, an advocate for the Jewishpeople, an advocate for Israel
or an educator on history, andclearly that's not my job and no
(26:50):
one will ever pay me for thatbecause that's not my job or my
skill set.
It's just been interesting tonotice that impulse to want to
go there.
And then the third bucket isreally from my Jewish clients,
which are, you know, a big partof my clientele and just like
enormous grief andre-traumatisation and
(27:14):
disorientation in the world,confusion, fear, I mean.
The list really does go on Withthe second group.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Have some of those clients been aware that you are
Jewish and in some ways eithertrying to provoke you or making
a statement to you?
Or is it just they're just notaware of your Jewish identity
and they're telling you abouttheir views on the conflict and
it's just coming up.
And which one is it?
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It's both.
So some do absolutely know thatI'm Jewish.
I have a lot of Jewish books inmy office that are visible.
I talk about being Jewish fromtime to time and there are
definitely some who don't knowthat I'm Jewish.
And certainly since October 7,I've sort of volunteered that
I'm Jewish a lot less.
(28:07):
So some clients are sort ofnewer clients post-October 7, so
perhaps I haven't yet revealedto them hey, I'm a Jew.
Are they trying to provoke mePossibly?
I mean, we have to hold that asa hypothesis because that could
be an important aspect of thework.
I haven't necessarily coded ityet as a provocation towards me.
(28:29):
I sort of hear it more as themreviewing and processing what
they're going through in theirlives and what they're thinking
about what's happening in theworld.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Just to jump in there for a moment, if I may.
It's interesting to me to hearthat these are clients that are
not Jewish and presumablythey're not Palestinian or maybe
you've got some clients thatare but that it is enough of a
theme, the conflict, that theyare raising it in their sessions
.
That in itself is significant,isn't it?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Absolutely Look.
I think of the therapy room asa little microcosm of the
broader world and in many ways,whatever is happening outside in
the world in some way at somepoint comes into the therapy
office.
And I often tell my clients andmyself you can't be in the rain
and not get wet.
(29:21):
I don't think you can live inthe world today and not be
affected by what we hear and bywhat's unfolding and what's
happening.
And so when they bring it up inthe therapy room or in the
therapeutic space, I think thisis a result of the fact that
they are wet from the rain.
Right, they have thoughts, theyhave opinions, they have
(29:41):
reactions, they have ideologicalperspectives that they're
navigating, that haveideological perspectives that
they're navigating.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Have you ever had any clients say I don't want you to
be my therapist anymore becauseyou're a Jew.
But they don't say Jew, theysay Zionist.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
And, equally, have you ever had instances where
there has been disagreement andstrong gulfs between the two of
you, but over time you've beenable to overcome them?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yeah, this is harder to talk about.
Like there's two clients thatcome to mind, I have to try to
talk in a de-identified way, Idoubt that.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
What are their names and addresses?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
And their Medicare numbers as well.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
I doubt they're ever going to hear this podcast, but
in case.
So I did have a client for anumber of years who is Middle
Eastern and I thought we had avery strong rapport and,
interestingly, for a long timebefore October 7, we would
discuss the fact that I wasJewish and I was very connected
to Israel and that he was ofMuslim origin and of a Middle
(30:47):
Eastern descent.
You know we would often talkabout that sort of meeting
between differences or differentsides of the aisle in therapy.
You know he would often tell meabout what he was exposed to in
the education system as a child, about Jews and about Israelis
(31:07):
and about Zionism, and wemanaged to find our way through
that quite comfortably, in aproductive way, but since
October 7, he hasn't come backto therapy.
Since October 7 happened and Ican only be left to my own
devices to guess why and whatthat means and what that
represents.
(31:28):
And another client of mine afterOctober 7 I posted something on
Instagram but then, if yourecall, that, like blue tile,
with the Magenda vid and thewords I stand with Israel and it
was a few days after October 7that I posted it and I didn't
know at the time that somehow,because I'm very technologically
(31:51):
challenged, everyone knows thisabout me I didn't know at the
time that he was following me onInstagram.
I have subsequently learned howto make an Instagram profile
private, which I instituted, butI didn't know this at the time.
And he really challenged me onwhy and how.
Dare I say that I stand withIsrael.
(32:12):
And he was a long-term clientI'd been seeing for many, many
years, on and off you knowdifferent periods of his life,
and I was taken aback by it.
I just didn't expect it, and itwas so much in the immediacy of
October 7, I was in my own sortof tribalism and chaos and
trying to just make sense ofeverything.
(32:33):
I didn't expect this.
I didn't see it coming.
Anyway, I took a weekend tothink about do I reply?
How do I reply?
What do I say?
What do I not say?
Eventually, I did write back tohim and I explained to him what
those words I stand with Israelmean to me at that time and I
(32:53):
invited him to a non-therapeuticconversation.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, I invited him to like maybe we could go for a
walk or have a coffee somewherewhere no one would know who we
were to have a conversationabout this, because clearly we
were coming from differentperspectives.
And, yeah, he never replied andhe never gave me therapy.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
You cured them with your amazing therapy and they no
longer need therapy at all.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Let's go with that, Tammy?
Yeah, let's take that at all.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Let's go with that.
Tammy, yeah, let's take that.
You mentioned before that youhad some.
Do you call?
Them clients, not patientsclients, clients who reached out
to you, who weren't jewish,just to check in on you are they
your favorites now?
Do therapists have favourites?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
They do On the record or off the record.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
You can't answer that , can you?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
No, but I can maybe hear the question in a different
way.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
So how are you hearing the question?
Speaker 3 (33:59):
I do have favourite clients.
Okay, those are the clients whocome to therapy open-minded.
Oh, I see it's a very safeanswer see it's a very safe
answer it's a very answer, butit is an interesting thing
because often and I think khan,who was one of the sort of early
psychoanalysts not maybe, notthat early, anyway, you can fact
(34:20):
check me on when he was around,but, um, I'm pretty sure it was
him who said that oftentimespeople come to therapy to replay
their neuroses right, theydon't come to change, they just
come to replay their neuroses.
Yes, and does that resonate?
I mean, ironically, I thinkthat some people do come to
therapy closed to the process.
(34:41):
They come to sort of defendtheir positions.
They come to sort of defendtheir positions.
So when people come with anopenness to the process, it
certainly makes it a lot moreenjoyable and productive.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
What's one thing you wish that clients would do more
of?
You know, sometimes I'm likevery self-conscious about how I
am showing up in my sessionswith my therapist and I'm very
aware that you know there areconversations I continue to play
out of every he never just sortof shakes me and says you just
don't understand, do you?
Just I've told you know?
(35:15):
Never, of course, because he'snever going to tell me what he
actually deeply darkly thinks.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I think, sort of the one of the first thoughts that
came up to your question in mymind was to put yourself on the
line as a client.
I think we can all benefit fromthat putting ourselves on the
line, which is daring to exposeourselves and daring to see
ourselves as imperfect andflawed and limited.
And this in a way goes back tothe earlier conversation about
(35:42):
forgiveness, and I know thatthat can be incredibly
terrifying to do, but I thinkthat if we have the safety of
the therapeutic relationship andthe therapeutic space to do
that, it can be very, veryproductive, because oftentimes
we like to externalizeeverything.
It's that person's problem waswhat they said to me or what
(36:05):
they did to me, or it's alwaysextent not always, but
oftentimes it's externalizedwhen we are able to put
ourselves on the line, we'reable to see what's our part in
the mess.
One of my favorite quotes itsays you're not stuck in traffic
, you are the traffic, and Ilove for clients to be able to
see and myself included, I'malso a client in therapy right,
(36:30):
I think it's important for us tobe able to see that we are the
traffic, that we are alsocontributing somehow to, to what
is happening in our lives andwhat's happening around us.
If we can have this sort of thespace and the support to do
that in a gentle, loving,compassionate way, I think it
can be very revealing.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Oh, that's lovely.
It's so different to what Ithought you were going to say.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh, what did you think I was going to say?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I thought you were going to say like just can
everyone please just go and geta life and be a little bit more
interesting.
I want some juice.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
This is like something that's quite 1990s
about you, brandy.
You probably don't realise it.
You're like one of the fewpeople I know that has a quote
in their email signature.
You still have it, but Iabsolutely love it.
I don't want you to change it,because every time I read it
(37:19):
when I get an email from you, Igo I think oh, brando is such a
good guy, bless you.
This quote really resonateswith me and I just want you to
speak to it briefly.
So the quote is from Carl Jung,one of the greats of
(37:39):
psychotherapy.
The privilege of a lifetime isto become who you truly are.
Why that quote?
Wow, why that?
Speaker 3 (37:47):
quote.
Wow, why that quote?
Well, the quote did used tochange every now and then I'm
just going to put that out therebut I did land on this one and
it's been there for quite a fewyears.
Why that quote?
Because I think one of thethings that it denotes to me is
that we are always changing andthat we're always in flux and
(38:12):
that we're not stagnantcreatures.
It is sort of that cliche thatthe only constant is change, but
we are always changing andquite literally, as sort of
strange as it might sound, who Iam right now is not who I was
an hour ago, and so I think thatthis quote for me just reminds
(38:33):
me and I hope it reminds othersthat we're always becoming more
of who we are, and I hope thatit gives us all permission to
embrace that and to recognizethat I don't have to be set in
my ways, I don't have to berigid in what I thought or what
I think or what I did or what Ido, that I'm allowed to evolve,
(38:56):
and I think you know, evolutionis the secret to survival Like
we have to allow ourselves toevolve, and so I think that's
what Carl Jung is touching on insome way for me in that quote.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
And so I think that's what Carl Jung is touching on
in some way for me in that quoteDash.
Just so you know, when I getemails from Brando I get
tailored ones specific to me.
So at the end of his emails tome there's a quote.
It says a ring is round andnever ends, and that's how long
that we'll be friends.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
I do pride myself in having a bespoke service.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, I'm happy with the Carl Jung one.
I think it's very powerful.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
We need to wrap up and I need to ask Brando if
there's anything he's ashamed toadmit in general.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Oh my God, there's so much that I'm ashamed to admit.
Maybe I'll just say that, whileI absolutely love this podcast,
I am ashamed to admit that I'veonly been able to listen to two
episodes this whole year so far.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Why.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Because I just haven't had any time.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
The existential psychotherapist doesn't have
time, and he's feeling shameabout the fact that he doesn't
have time.
Brando, we're here to give youpermission.
Thank you.
You need to go a little biteasier on yourself.
Not working so?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
hard, so I hope it's not too much of a bombshell
before we run out of time.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Speak for yourself, Dash.
I'm not giving him permission.
He needs to like cut back onsome white lotus and start
binging on.
A shame, to admit.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
There's a lot of episodes to get through.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
But the two that I listened to I obviously loved
and I will make much more of aneffort to get back on track with
the Shamed Tidman.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Thank you.
The podcast loves you yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
I think I've told this to both of you.
I love the synergy that youhave between the two of you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
We try our best.
We're going to work on it thisweekend at Limwood, oz, when we
see each other.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
You're so welcome, thank you.
I feel very honoured to chat toyou and your listeners and I
hope it's been helpful in someway.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Looking forward to seeing you this weekend at
Limwood Oz.
Bye.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Likewise, my friends.
I'll see you there.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
That was Brandon Zrott, who'll be presenting this
weekend at Limwood Oz.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
We'll also leave some information in the show notes
and just a reminder that Dashand I will also be presenting
this weekend at Limwood, oz,melbourne.
We'll be recording this showlive, so it's time to book your
tickets to see us on Sundayafternoon at 4pm.
Do you live in another state?
(41:32):
It might be prudent to bookyour flights as well.
Okay, that's it.
I'm plugging it with the plugs.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
And that is it for this week.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me, Dash
Lawrence.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
And me Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moresatisfying than a free airport
transfer.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week and, tammy, I'llsee you at Tullamarine.
Bye-bye, thank you.
Are you interested in how Jewish therapists have been
navigating the emotional,ethical and political dilemmas
that have surfaced in therapyrooms since October 7th?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
And do you find it hard to apologise for things
that you've said and done?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
If you answered yes to one or both of those
questions, then you've come tothe right place.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Dashua Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in today's episode, your thirdcousin, tammy Swisman, and I
will be talking to a Jewishpsychotherapist, leadership
development facilitator anall-round community gem.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Who knows if he'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of this TJIpodcast and we seem to be
dropping our shame.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Some of us more than others, Tammy.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Come along for the ride, as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewyand dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Hello, I'm Dash.
Would you like a lift from theairport this weekend, Lawrence?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
And I'm Tammy.
That would be lovely.
Thank you, sussman Dash.
That's really generous of you.
I'll send you my flight details.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Well, I will have to do it now, won't I, given that
that's been put out there on air?
Yeah, sure, send me yourdetails, and if I can't do it,
I'll send a driver.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay, I would like a pink Hummer.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Can't do that.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
That's the vibe I'm bringing to Limwood.
Ask the executive director ofthe Jewish Independent for
approval for that purchase.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Claim has been denied .
Speaker 1 (01:58):
By the way, how is the promo going for Limwood this
weekend?
And I don't mean on yoursocials, which you're terrible
at, I mean in your family groupchat.
Is your partner coming?
Your partner's sister?
Your partner's parents?
Who's coming?
Who am I meeting?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Look, limud Oz is just one of those events in the
Jewish community that is on mycalendar, locked in every year.
If you love a gathering ofspeakers, be they cultural,
academic, fun, political,comedic, You're taking this down
(02:38):
a promo line.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
That's not where I was going with this.
I want to know who you'vereached out to.
Who is coming to see us live?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I don't have anyone coming to see us live Right.
All I know is that there are alot of people out there have
come up to me in the last coupleof weeks and said, seen the
program, seen the schedule, I'mgoing to be there and I've said
great, thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Not good enough.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
What do you want me to do?
Like wear a big billboard andgo out onto the streets of
Caulfield over the next few daysand promote.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That's not what I'm asking, dash.
I'm asking for you to reach outto the people in your WhatsApp
groups.
Everyone knows that that's howyou close a deal.
You book tickets through aWhatsApp group.
You're not doing it throughInstagram.
You're not doing it throughFacebook, through billboards.
It's going to be in Susie'sfamily group chat Now.
(03:37):
We have been besties for over ayear now and I've only met
Susie over our recordingsoftware.
I've not met her in person.
So what's going on?
Will I see her there?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Probably not, because I expect she'll be in the
depths of toilet training thatweekend and you remember what
that's like.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And her parents.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
They're also going to be away that weekend.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
And their synagogue choir.
I'll bring someone, Someone.
He says One person.
This is just unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I'm a busy man, what can I say?
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I'm really pulling more than my fair share of
weight here.
You're not hustling hard enough.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I know, I know.
So Tammy clearly is trying toconcoct some conflict, because
on today's show we'll bediscussing the art of apologies
and therapy.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Two big themes in my life and possibly in yours.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Brandon Srot is our guest today.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Brandon Srot is a Sydney-based psychotherapist who
specialises in working withtrauma, grief and loss, personal
discovery and relationshipstherapy.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Brandon also delivers leadership development programs
for people and organisationsacross Australia and beyond.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Today we're getting a little teaser for the sessions
he'll be running at Limwood Ozin Melbourne this weekend.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Just a little reminder that Tammy and I will
also be there.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
But for now, enjoy this chat with big macher
himself, Brandon Schrott.
Brandon Schrott, welcome to theAshamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Hello, I'm so honoured to be here with you
both and all of your listeners.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Brando, we are so honoured to have you in the
studio today.
Tammy, just mentioned in yourbiography, you essentially work
in what's called the humandevelopment sector, or movement.
Like you, are someone who Ithink is fundamentally devoted
to making human beings healthier, happier, more functional in
(06:00):
different ways, whether it's inthe workplace or through your
work one-on-one with clients.
My hypothesis is you developedsome of these skills and these
interests in working with humanbeings through being a Jewish
youth movement leader.
Is that right?
Tell me if I've kind ofmisdirected that.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Yeah, it's a great question and a wonderful
reflection and I think you'vehit the nail on the head.
I often say, as do many of myfriends and colleagues, that our
youth movement trainingcertainly outweighs any other
sort of formal training that wedid in life.
And yeah, I think it's verytrue for me.
I mean, I grew up in HabonimDror.
(06:42):
I'm a very proud graduate ofHabo.
You're a Habo boy, I'm a Haboboy.
Yes, through and through.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
We have a few non-Jewish listeners.
Are you able to just give alittle overview of what Habo is?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Habo is the short term of endearment for Habonim
Dror, which is a global Jewishsocialist Zionist youth movement
.
Yeah, that really has centersall over the world and it's all
about Jewish education, Zionisteducation, youth empowerment and
it's just a wonderful space foryoung people.
And, yeah, I spent many yearsin the movement and I think that
(07:17):
is really where I sort ofdiscovered my passion for
education, for facilitation, forinformal learning, for human
development, for what happenswhen people come together in
safe, nourishing spaces, whatcan emerge between people when
their common values at play.
And yeah, I think it reallyopened a whole new world to me
(07:37):
of possibility which has really,I don't know, set me into a
particular course in my life Didyou grow up as quite a sort of
sensitive boy?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
In some of our encounters in the past I
immediately sensed someone withgreat sensitivity and really a
very good antenna forunderstanding people and great
intuition for other human beings, which is a rare gift, brandoo.
I'm imagining this has been acore characteristic of yours as
long as you've been.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
You've been alive well, firstly, I'm very moved to
hear that.
So thank you for your very kindwords.
I do think I was a sensitivechild and I still think I'm a
sensitive adult.
I'm a sensitive person and Ithink I have a lot of pride in
that actually, because I thinkthat with sensitivity comes an
attunement to other people andtheir emotions, their
(08:29):
experiences in life, their needs.
So, yeah, I take a lot of pridein being sensitive.
I think, unfortunately, in ourcurrent culture perhaps there's
a sense that, oh gosh, you knowthat's like fragile if you're
sensitive.
But I take real pride in beingsensitive, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Brandon, listeners will detect in your accent a
South African accent.
Yeah, and I am wondering, assomeone who I think grew up in
the 1980s and 1990s a little bitin South Africa and maybe a
little bit in Australia, how wasit to be that sensitive boy?
(09:07):
Because society has changed itsview around boys and
sensitivity and there's perhapsmore acceptance of, you know,
diverse personalities andcertainly there is not that
Shame yeah, shame around.
I certainly felt it growing upas a sensitive boy.
Shame about being, you know,not being tougher or harder.
(09:30):
Was that your experience in thekind of cultural context you
grew up in?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Yeah, I think in South Africa you know, I grew up
in the, as you said, in the 80sand 90s there was, and maybe
still is, a particularmasculinity in the culture and
it was, I would say at the timeat least, one of real dominance,
given what was happeningpolitically in the country at
the time too, and sort of powerover others.
(09:57):
I do feel very blessed in a waythat I don't feel like my
sensitivity was ever the sort ofobject of disdain or challenge.
I was probably more contendingwith my sexuality more than my
sensitivity, and I get thatthere's a Venn diagram happening
there too and they areinterrelated.
(10:18):
But you know I was neverovertly antagonized or bullied
for being sensitive or fordealing with my sexuality.
I wasn't out as a child, I wasa young person, but I'm sure
everyone knew at the time.
So there was nothing overt.
I think it was more sort ofcontending with myself and maybe
an inner struggle, more thansomething from the out coming in
(10:39):
.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Brandon, or Brando as you're known to the people
close to you, and I'm going topretend to be one of those
people today because I'd like tobe closer.
Before we get into more seriousstuff in this interview, can
you please tell us what kind oftherapist you are?
Are you more of a let's talk itout kind of therapist, or a
(11:03):
let's sit in silence and stareinto the void until the
awkwardness gets too intense andclients just blurt things out?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Your question makes me laugh because I mean, you've
got to love these stereotypicaldepictions of therapy, right.
But look, in all seriousness, Idon't think I see them as
either.
Or I'm certainly like a let'stalk it out therapist, and I
would say I'm very much one whovalues and appreciates working
(11:34):
with silence, because I thinkthat silence is also a way of
communicating many importantdifferent things that we don't
necessarily communicate in words.
So when we're in silence orwhen we're sitting in silence,
we might be rememberingsomething, we might be
processing something, we mightbe feeling something, we might
(11:55):
even be trying to understandsomething.
So silence is also, I guess, aplace where we can gather our
thoughts and gather our words.
So I think there's a lot that'sactually that can happen in
silence, and I get to that.
You know, oftentimes silencecan be miscoded or just coded as
resistance or disinterest oreven a form of protest.
(12:17):
But I think that silence can bea way that we really also honor
the important material of ourlives.
So I think it can be reallyvaried and I think really the
skill or the trick is knowinghow to work with silence, how to
allow silence, how to hold it,how to speak to it, how to
unpack what it represents.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Thanks for that answer, brandon.
That was beautiful.
So the reason why we've broughtyou here is because both Dash
and I really like you and justwanted to spend more time with
you, but also to promote yourLimud session this weekend.
Your Limud session aboutforgiveness, saying sorry,
(13:01):
sounds both beautiful andbeautiful terrifying.
I'm curious to know why isapologizing so hard, even when
we know we're in the wrong?
And I ask this question assomeone who comes from a long
line of people who find itextremely difficult to apologize
(13:24):
.
It's it's Broigus central in myfamily.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
All right.
Well, firstly, I'm reallyintrigued that the topic, or the
session topic, is bothbeautiful and terrifying, but
maybe we can leave that foranother conversation.
I think, at its core, apology.
The process of apology, whendone meaningfully, is a very
vulnerable process and I thinkthat when we apologize we really
(13:51):
acknowledge to ourselves and toothers that we're imperfect,
that there's something inapology that recognizes that
we're flawed and that we'relimited.
We're human beings, we're notperfect creatures.
And in that recognition we areperhaps required to admit that
I've maybe hurt you or I'veoffended you, I've betrayed you,
(14:12):
I've misjudged you, maybe I'vedone something significant that
has really really come to hurtyou in some way.
And that's a really hard thingto do because it's hard for us,
just at the simplest level, toadmit that we got something
wrong or that we did somethingbad.
We don't like to admit that wegot something wrong or that we
did something bad.
We don't like to do that.
It can feel very exposing,especially when we are living in
(14:34):
a, in a culture, in a worldwhich tends to tell us to armor
up and to protect ourselves andto be gone, you know, to move
through the world with a bit ofprotection.
This can be very sort ofcounter-cultural to expose
ourselves, to want to then openourselves up to imperfection.
And I think too that oftentimeswe hide behind intent.
(14:56):
You know, oftentimes we'll hearpeople say things like oh, I
didn't intend to say that or Ididn't mean that.
And when it comes to apology,we're not actually interested in
intent, because apology isabout impact, and at some point
we can no longer hide behind theintent of what we had in mind.
But actually it's about theimpact.
(15:16):
What did my words or my actionsor my inactions or my silence
do to you or cause for you?
And that's what I mean aboutmeaningful apology.
It's about really reckoningwith the impact of what we've
done or not done.
And that can also be veryconfronting, especially for
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Well, that's the terrifying part.
You've just answered thequestion.
It's because it's so exposing.
It's like I would rather standcompletely naked in front of
someone and say here are myimperfections than here's how
I've hurt you.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Yes, yes, and I guess there's something interesting
in that too, as you say that,because perhaps an apology or
that recognition with self isactually much more internal than
being seen naked.
It's a much deeper window intosomeone, I think.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, Dash.
Do you know what Broigus is?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I sure do.
Well, you know, I work with you, so I'm regularly finding
myself in forms of Broigus.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Broigus, so Dash, exists in a Jewish community, is
partnered with a Jewish womanraising Jewish kids, but did not
grow up in a Jewish family.
So that's why I'm asking thisquestion what does the word
broigus mean to you, dash?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Broigus, or the notion of disagreement with a
lot of heat, a lot of tension.
Conflict is probably a bettertranslation for it.
Am I right in saying that it'sa universal thing?
Better translation for it?
Am I right in saying that it'sa universal thing?
Right?
But I see what you're gettingat, tammy, and I'm curious to
know, with Brandon, as someonewho is Jewish is very much
(16:59):
embedded in the Jewish community, your practice, brando, is kind
of on the edge of the Jewishcommunity in Sydney, at least
geographically speaking, Iimagine.
I don't know.
A lot of your clients areJewish, yeah, so would you say
that we are when we're talkingthat there is a particular Is
there a particular brand ofJewish conflict?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
is what Dash is trying to ask you.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
And are they more prone to?
Are you more prone to havingthese conversations with your
Jewish clients than you are withyour non-Jewish clients?
Speaker 3 (17:33):
So interesting.
Look.
I just want to say at theoutset that whenever I hear or
say the word Brueghus, it soundslike a term of endearment to me
for bronchitis.
Do you hear it at all?
I don't know.
There's some weird associationthere for me.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yiddish is just, I find endearing yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Interesting.
It's one of those Yiddish wordsthat hasn't really made its way
into the English language,vernacular in the way that, like
Klutz or Schlepp, has.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
My hypothesis is that no one else can do broigus as
well as the Jews.
To me, broigus doesn't justmean a heated argument or
conflict.
It means they're out, notinvited to the wedding.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Well, I might have to gently challenge that
assumption.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Well, I would love to believe that broigus is maybe
culturally distinct to ourpeople.
Certainly the word or thelanguage is, or for it is might
be, at least From my perspective.
You know, I've probably workedwith hundreds and hundreds of
individuals and couples at thispoint in my clinical career from
all different sort of culturaland family systems and sadly
(18:42):
what I found is that it's notculturally distinct.
We might have our ownparticular ways of doing
conflict, but certainly I haveyet to encounter a system that
is immune to conflict.
And you know we have a word forit.
We call it broigus.
It's one of the words we mightuse to refer to it.
But you know, in other systemsit might just be called a feud
or a family secret or a cut-off,which you've sort of just
(19:05):
alluded to before.
And I just think that it's partof human nature that we have
conflict and we don't alwaysknow how to deal with it because
we're not trained there's nocourse, there's no school
subject on how to deal withinterpersonal conflicts or
family conflicts.
So we find all these differentways to try to manage it and
oftentimes it leads to a cutoffor to silencing or to
(19:27):
excommunicating someone or tonever talking about a particular
topic.
You know the elephants in theroom or all those sorts of
things.
So yeah, I think it's a bitmore universal than distinctly
Jewish.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
And yet, in Jewish tradition, we are supposed to
take sorry quite seriously,aren't we?
Because there's even thisdeadline that we have every year
, and that's Yom Kippur.
So what wisdom can we borrowfrom the Jewish time frames when
it comes to repair, and do wehave to explain the word repair
(20:04):
to the boomers listening?
Speaker 3 (20:05):
listening.
Well, maybe just in case it'snot going to hurt anyone.
But yeah, repair is a lovelyterm that we use in the field
for I would say the coming backtogether or the restitching of
connection between people orgroups of people after a
(20:27):
conflict.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
A rupture.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Or a rupture.
Yeah, ruptures and repairs sortof go hand in hand.
And you know, some of theliterature will tell you, will
tell us that we should try torepair within at least 72 hours,
or a minimum of 72 hours aftera rupture.
Yeah, which is very, very hardto do.
But then you have the grace ofour Jewish calendar which says
(20:50):
you've got a rupture yeah, whichis very, very hard to do.
But then you have the grace ofour Jewish calendar which says
you've got a year, you know, atleast within 12 months or by 12
months, we should have thatconversation or make the attempt
to repair.
And yeah, I mean, I think insome ways we've sort of computed
this idea of Yom Kippur assaying sorry, and I won't give
(21:10):
away too much about my sessionat Limudaz, but it is that piece
that I'm really challenging inthe session.
That forgiveness and apology ismuch more than saying sorry.
Those who get to come to thesession will get to have sort of
an embodied experience of that.
Leave that to be a littlemysterious.
I like that embodied experienceof that.
(21:31):
I believe that to be a littlemysterious, I like that.
I do think too that there's likesome very beautiful, there's
some beautiful wisdom in theJewish tradition around apology,
around repair work, aroundforgiveness.
And I go to Emmanuel Synagoguein Sydney and in one of the
sanctuaries, above the ark, it'swritten know before whom you
stand.
I love this line.
(21:52):
I often think about it whendoing repair work, like my own
repair work in my ownrelationships, or when I'm
facilitating repair work withclients, because I think there's
a real wisdom in knowing beforewhom we stand, like know your
audience, who are you speakingto?
And I think sometimes when wecan see the humanity or even the
holiness in the people thatwe're speaking to, and I think
sometimes when we can see thehumanity or even the holiness in
the people that we're speakingto and trying to repair with, it
(22:14):
can soften a bit of our owndefensiveness in that moment and
it can open us up a little bitto a healthy, meaningful repair.
So I think there's a lot ofwisdom from within the Jewish
tradition and canon.
And you know, I think too aboutlike the word shema, listen.
It's sort of like not lost onme that the most central prayer
(22:35):
in our tradition begins withthis word, listen, and it's such
a hard thing to do.
And I think forgiveness andapology is as much about
listening as it is aboutactually talking and owning up
to you know, to what it is thatwe've done or that we're
apologising for.
Yeah, but how do we listen, youknow?
And one of my favourite prayersin Judaism is from the morning
(22:59):
prayers, and the Englishtranslation to this particular
prayer says blessed is the onewho spoke and brought the world
into being.
And I just love this idea thatwords create worlds and that our
world is created throughlanguage and speech and words.
And I think about that a lottoo.
When it comes to sort of repair, forgiveness, apology.
(23:22):
What are the words that we'reusing?
How are we speaking?
And we know that, you know,communication is only 7% about
the words and 93% about how weexpress and convey those words,
but I just think there's a lotthat we are bringing into being
and there's a lot that we arecreating through our words, and
we have a real opportunity therewhen we are requesting or
(23:43):
seeking forgiveness through ourwords.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
I'm so excited for this session.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
And I know why, tammy , because we've got some
repairing to do.
Don't we Tammy's birthday thisyear?
Brando, I forgot I was a daylate, oi, and I don't think
she's forgiven me since then,and I'm not sure that I fully
repaired.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I am genetically inclined to hold a grudge.
That's true, Brandon.
You have another Limud sessionas well.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
I'm really curious to hear what comes up in this
conversation.
The three Jewish therapistsexplore the impacts of October
7th.
We all know that the Jewishcommunity has some terrific
psychologists, psychotherapists,psychiatrists.
It's innate to Jewish peoplethat working with the psyche is
(24:36):
part of the game.
So we've got yourself, vickyGordon and Julia Bloom to talk
about the experience of workingwith clients post-October 7th.
Experience of working withclients post-October 7th.
Tell us what kinds ofconversations have been
surfacing in the therapy in thesupervision room in the time
since October 7th 2023.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, well, I think that there's sort of three
distinct categories that I couldprobably bucket those into.
One very small bucket has beenthe clients who know that I'm
Jewish and who have in some waytried to reach out to me in the
therapy room in the therapysession to check in on me, like
(25:21):
how I'm doing, how my communityis, how my family is.
A lot of my clients know that Itravel to Israel regularly for
work so that they know thatthey're these connections to
what's unfolding.
And there might only be a few,but they are very, very special,
I think, in a way for reachingout and that's new, like that,
(25:42):
doesn't?
That never really happenedbefore with the sort of reaching
out in this way to me as atherapist in the room.
Then there has been a bit of abigger bucket of voices in the
room that are anti-Jewish andanti-Israel and that is very,
very difficult to.
I mean I'll talk more about thisin the session at Limudaz, but
(26:05):
it is very difficult as a Jewand as a Zionist to hold space
for that.
I've had to really grapple witha lot internally and really sit
on the edges of my tolerance andexamine what that means for me
and what it brings up for me andhow I show up in that and what
I do and what I don't do in that, how I show up in that and what
(26:28):
I do and what I don't do inthat.
And it's also been interestingin terms of how those sorts of
conversations have at timestaken me into a different role
in the therapy room.
So at times I've been sort ofseduced to want to go into, you
know, an advocate for the Jewishpeople, an advocate for Israel
or an educator on history, andclearly that's not my job and no
(26:50):
one will ever pay me for thatbecause that's not my job or my
skill set.
It's just been interesting tonotice that impulse to want to
go there.
And then the third bucket isreally from my Jewish clients,
which are, you know, a big partof my clientele and just like
enormous grief andre-traumatisation and
(27:14):
disorientation in the world,confusion, fear, I mean.
The list really does go on Withthe second group.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Have some of those clients been aware that you are
Jewish and in some ways eithertrying to provoke you or making
a statement to you?
Or is it just they're just notaware of your Jewish identity
and they're telling you abouttheir views on the conflict and
it's just coming up.
And which one is it?
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It's both.
So some do absolutely know thatI'm Jewish.
I have a lot of Jewish books inmy office that are visible.
I talk about being Jewish fromtime to time and there are
definitely some who don't knowthat I'm Jewish.
And certainly since October 7,I've sort of volunteered that
I'm Jewish a lot less.
(28:07):
So some clients are sort ofnewer clients post-October 7, so
perhaps I haven't yet revealedto them hey, I'm a Jew.
Are they trying to provoke mePossibly?
I mean, we have to hold that asa hypothesis because that could
be an important aspect of thework.
I haven't necessarily coded ityet as a provocation towards me.
(28:29):
I sort of hear it more as themreviewing and processing what
they're going through in theirlives and what they're thinking
about what's happening in theworld.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Just to jump in there for a moment, if I may.
It's interesting to me to hearthat these are clients that are
not Jewish and presumablythey're not Palestinian or maybe
you've got some clients thatare but that it is enough of a
theme, the conflict, that theyare raising it in their sessions
.
That in itself is significant,isn't it?
Speaker 3 (29:01):
Absolutely Look.
I think of the therapy room asa little microcosm of the
broader world and in many ways,whatever is happening outside in
the world in some way at somepoint comes into the therapy
office.
And I often tell my clients andmyself you can't be in the rain
and not get wet.
(29:21):
I don't think you can live inthe world today and not be
affected by what we hear and bywhat's unfolding and what's
happening.
And so when they bring it up inthe therapy room or in the
therapeutic space, I think thisis a result of the fact that
they are wet from the rain.
Right, they have thoughts, theyhave opinions, they have
(29:41):
reactions, they have ideologicalperspectives that they're
navigating, that haveideological perspectives that
they're navigating.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Have you ever had any clients say I don't want you to
be my therapist anymore becauseyou're a Jew.
But they don't say Jew, theysay Zionist.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
And, equally, have you ever had instances where
there has been disagreement andstrong gulfs between the two of
you, but over time you've beenable to overcome them?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Yeah, this is harder to talk about.
Like there's two clients thatcome to mind, I have to try to
talk in a de-identified way, Idoubt that.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
What are their names and addresses?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
And their Medicare numbers as well.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
I doubt they're ever going to hear this podcast, but
in case.
So I did have a client for anumber of years who is Middle
Eastern and I thought we had avery strong rapport and,
interestingly, for a long timebefore October 7, we would
discuss the fact that I wasJewish and I was very connected
to Israel and that he was ofMuslim origin and of a Middle
(30:47):
Eastern descent.
You know we would often talkabout that sort of meeting
between differences or differentsides of the aisle in therapy.
You know he would often tell meabout what he was exposed to in
the education system as a child, about Jews and about Israelis
(31:07):
and about Zionism, and wemanaged to find our way through
that quite comfortably, in aproductive way, but since
October 7, he hasn't come backto therapy.
Since October 7 happened and Ican only be left to my own
devices to guess why and whatthat means and what that
represents.
(31:28):
And another client of mine afterOctober 7 I posted something on
Instagram but then, if yourecall, that, like blue tile,
with the Magenda vid and thewords I stand with Israel and it
was a few days after October 7that I posted it and I didn't
know at the time that somehow,because I'm very technologically
(31:51):
challenged, everyone knows thisabout me I didn't know at the
time that he was following me onInstagram.
I have subsequently learned howto make an Instagram profile
private, which I instituted, butI didn't know this at the time.
And he really challenged me onwhy and how.
Dare I say that I stand withIsrael.
(32:12):
And he was a long-term clientI'd been seeing for many, many
years, on and off you knowdifferent periods of his life,
and I was taken aback by it.
I just didn't expect it, and itwas so much in the immediacy of
October 7, I was in my own sortof tribalism and chaos and
trying to just make sense ofeverything.
(32:33):
I didn't expect this.
I didn't see it coming.
Anyway, I took a weekend tothink about do I reply?
How do I reply?
What do I say?
What do I not say?
Eventually, I did write back tohim and I explained to him what
those words I stand with Israelmean to me at that time and I
(32:53):
invited him to a non-therapeuticconversation.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, I invited him to like maybe we could go for a
walk or have a coffee somewherewhere no one would know who we
were to have a conversationabout this, because clearly we
were coming from differentperspectives.
And, yeah, he never replied andhe never gave me therapy.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
You cured them with your amazing therapy and they no
longer need therapy at all.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Let's go with that, Tammy?
Yeah, let's take that at all.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Let's go with that.
Tammy, yeah, let's take that.
You mentioned before that youhad some.
Do you call?
Them clients, not patientsclients, clients who reached out
to you, who weren't jewish,just to check in on you are they
your favorites now?
Do therapists have favourites?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
They do On the record or off the record.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
You can't answer that , can you?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
No, but I can maybe hear the question in a different
way.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
So how are you hearing the question?
Speaker 3 (33:59):
I do have favourite clients.
Okay, those are the clients whocome to therapy open-minded.
Oh, I see it's a very safeanswer see it's a very safe
answer it's a very answer, butit is an interesting thing
because often and I think khan,who was one of the sort of early
psychoanalysts not maybe, notthat early, anyway, you can fact
(34:20):
check me on when he was around,but, um, I'm pretty sure it was
him who said that oftentimespeople come to therapy to replay
their neuroses right, theydon't come to change, they just
come to replay their neuroses.
Yes, and does that resonate?
I mean, ironically, I thinkthat some people do come to
therapy closed to the process.
(34:41):
They come to sort of defendtheir positions.
They come to sort of defendtheir positions.
So when people come with anopenness to the process, it
certainly makes it a lot moreenjoyable and productive.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
What's one thing you wish that clients would do more
of?
You know, sometimes I'm likevery self-conscious about how I
am showing up in my sessionswith my therapist and I'm very
aware that you know there areconversations I continue to play
out of every he never just sortof shakes me and says you just
don't understand, do you?
Just I've told you know?
(35:15):
Never, of course, because he'snever going to tell me what he
actually deeply darkly thinks.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I think, sort of the one of the first thoughts that
came up to your question in mymind was to put yourself on the
line as a client.
I think we can all benefit fromthat putting ourselves on the
line, which is daring to exposeourselves and daring to see
ourselves as imperfect andflawed and limited.
And this in a way goes back tothe earlier conversation about
(35:42):
forgiveness, and I know thatthat can be incredibly
terrifying to do, but I thinkthat if we have the safety of
the therapeutic relationship andthe therapeutic space to do
that, it can be very, veryproductive, because oftentimes
we like to externalizeeverything.
It's that person's problem waswhat they said to me or what
(36:05):
they did to me, or it's alwaysextent not always, but
oftentimes it's externalizedwhen we are able to put
ourselves on the line, we'reable to see what's our part in
the mess.
One of my favorite quotes itsays you're not stuck in traffic
, you are the traffic, and Ilove for clients to be able to
see and myself included, I'malso a client in therapy right,
(36:30):
I think it's important for us tobe able to see that we are the
traffic, that we are alsocontributing somehow to, to what
is happening in our lives andwhat's happening around us.
If we can have this sort of thespace and the support to do
that in a gentle, loving,compassionate way, I think it
can be very revealing.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Oh, that's lovely.
It's so different to what Ithought you were going to say.
Speaker 3 (36:51):
Oh, what did you think I was going to say?
Speaker 1 (36:52):
I thought you were going to say like just can
everyone please just go and geta life and be a little bit more
interesting.
I want some juice.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
This is like something that's quite 1990s
about you, brandy.
You probably don't realise it.
You're like one of the fewpeople I know that has a quote
in their email signature.
You still have it, but Iabsolutely love it.
I don't want you to change it,because every time I read it
(37:19):
when I get an email from you, Igo I think oh, brando is such a
good guy, bless you.
This quote really resonateswith me and I just want you to
speak to it briefly.
So the quote is from Carl Jung,one of the greats of
(37:39):
psychotherapy.
The privilege of a lifetime isto become who you truly are.
Why that quote?
Wow, why that?
Speaker 3 (37:47):
quote.
Wow, why that quote?
Well, the quote did used tochange every now and then I'm
just going to put that out therebut I did land on this one and
it's been there for quite a fewyears.
Why that quote?
Because I think one of thethings that it denotes to me is
that we are always changing andthat we're always in flux and
(38:12):
that we're not stagnantcreatures.
It is sort of that cliche thatthe only constant is change, but
we are always changing andquite literally, as sort of
strange as it might sound, who Iam right now is not who I was
an hour ago, and so I think thatthis quote for me just reminds
(38:33):
me and I hope it reminds othersthat we're always becoming more
of who we are, and I hope thatit gives us all permission to
embrace that and to recognizethat I don't have to be set in
my ways, I don't have to berigid in what I thought or what
I think or what I did or what Ido, that I'm allowed to evolve,
(38:56):
and I think you know, evolutionis the secret to survival Like
we have to allow ourselves toevolve, and so I think that's
what Carl Jung is touching on insome way for me in that quote.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
And so I think that's what Carl Jung is touching on
in some way for me in that quoteDash.
Just so you know, when I getemails from Brando I get
tailored ones specific to me.
So at the end of his emails tome there's a quote.
It says a ring is round andnever ends, and that's how long
that we'll be friends.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
I do pride myself in having a bespoke service.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, I'm happy with the Carl Jung one.
I think it's very powerful.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
We need to wrap up and I need to ask Brando if
there's anything he's ashamed toadmit in general.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Oh my God, there's so much that I'm ashamed to admit.
Maybe I'll just say that, whileI absolutely love this podcast,
I am ashamed to admit that I'veonly been able to listen to two
episodes this whole year so far.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Why.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Because I just haven't had any time.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
The existential psychotherapist doesn't have
time, and he's feeling shameabout the fact that he doesn't
have time.
Brando, we're here to give youpermission.
Thank you.
You need to go a little biteasier on yourself.
Not working so?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
hard, so I hope it's not too much of a bombshell
before we run out of time.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Speak for yourself, Dash.
I'm not giving him permission.
He needs to like cut back onsome white lotus and start
binging on.
A shame, to admit.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
There's a lot of episodes to get through.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
But the two that I listened to I obviously loved
and I will make much more of aneffort to get back on track with
the Shamed Tidman.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Thank you.
The podcast loves you yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
I think I've told this to both of you.
I love the synergy that youhave between the two of you.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
We try our best.
We're going to work on it thisweekend at Limwood, oz, when we
see each other.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
You're so welcome, thank you.
I feel very honoured to chat toyou and your listeners and I
hope it's been helpful in someway.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Looking forward to seeing you this weekend at
Limwood Oz.
Bye.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Likewise, my friends.
I'll see you there.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
That was Brandon Zrott, who'll be presenting this
weekend at Limwood Oz.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
We'll also leave some information in the show notes
and just a reminder that Dashand I will also be presenting
this weekend at Limwood, oz,melbourne.
We'll be recording this showlive, so it's time to book your
tickets to see us on Sundayafternoon at 4pm.
Do you live in another state?
(41:32):
It might be prudent to bookyour flights as well.
Okay, that's it.
I'm plugging it with the plugs.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
And that is it for this week.
You've been listening to AShame to Admit with me, Dash
Lawrence.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
And me Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moresatisfying than a free airport
transfer.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week and, tammy, I'llsee you at Tullamarine.
Bye-bye, thank you.
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