Lee Kofman and her family survived Soviet persecution as refuseniks in the 1970s, but nothing could prepare her for what happened when she tried to support fellow Jewish creatives in Australia after October 7th. The acclaimed author and writing teacher created a WhatsApp group (later vilified as 'Zio600') for Jewish artists and academics, only to see the private conversations leaked and members' personal details publicly doxxed. She lost most of her teaching work overnight, but she won't be silenced. Lee caught up with Tami and Dash to discuss the chilling parallels between her childhood in the USSR and today's literary gatekeeping, and why she's channelling her energy into "Ruptured" - a powerful new collection of essays from Australian Jewish women.
Article related to this conversation:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/reassembling-the-jewish-matryoshka-dolls-in-my-family
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/hate-on-becoming-a-bad-jew
More information about Lee and Ruptured:
https://leekofman.com.au/ruptured/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Are you curious to know how the lives of Australian
Jewish women were irrevocablychanged by the events of October
7?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And are you interested in how the creative
landscape has changed for Jewishartists in Australia since
October 8?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
In this week's episode of Ashamed to Admit,
you'll be hearing from LeeKaufman, writing teacher, mentor
, author and editor of ninebooks in Hebrew and English.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Lee Kaufman is a long-time contributor to the
Jewish Independent and, togetherwith Tamar Paluch, she's also
the co-editor of a series ofessays called Ruptured, which is
being released this week.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Who knows if she'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of thisJewish Independent podcast and
we seem to be dropping our shameSome of us more than others.
Tammy, come along for the ride,as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewy anddewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Welcome back everyone.
I'm Dash Lawrence, executiveDirector here at the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
And I'm your third cousin, which is not the same
thing as a second cousin onceremoved, Tammy Sussman.
It's also quite possible thatI'm 8% to 10% genetically
similar to you.
Dash, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'm good.
I'm good.
I'm suffering through aMelbourne winter, ready for a
bit of a break from these cold,dark days.
Actually going to take a briefoverseas holiday in a couple of
weeks, tammy, are you?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yes, where are you going?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Nowhere special.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Oh, he doesn't want to say.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
No, I'm going to Bali .
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah for a wedding.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Whose wedding?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Not telling you.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
No, I don't need names and addresses, I'm just
saying genre, family member,friend.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Old school friend.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Old school friend.
Yeah, do you keep in touch withyour old school friends.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Of course, yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah, yeah.
Still very close.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, so you're going to be catching up with a few of
your school friends, correct?
Yeah, so you've got your schoolfriends.
Do you also have uni friends?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, I've got uni friends.
I've got work friends.
I have other random people thatI've picked up along the way
Marathon friends, Marathonfriends, running friends.
I've got quite a disparatefriendship group Like.
A lot of them don't know eachother and are not connected at
all, so it always makes for aninteresting birthday party for
(02:49):
me when I bring them alltogether.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Okay.
Do you have a group of Jewishfriends that you keep separate
to your non-Jewish friends?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I don't keep them separate, they just happen to be
separate.
But then, to be fair, some ofthem are separate to each other.
So I have obviously so manyJewish friends that plenty of
them are not known to each other.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Oh, he has so many Jewish friends.
Are you quite popular?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Sorry, let me rephrase that I have a number of
Jewish friends.
I have so many.
That was a bit of anexaggeration.
I have many Jewish friends.
I have a number.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, how many.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
As you'd expect, given that I've spent a large
chunk of my working life workingin and around Jewish
communities, I'm like I'm notgoing to count.
What is this Like?
Some sort of inquisition?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
KGB inquisition.
I thought you were going to sayI have so many Jewish friends
because I'm just a pretty fun,interesting guy and I always
come to social events with a bitof triv.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, well, that's true.
I don't think there's anyconnection between that and my
Jewish friends.
They like me for differentreasons.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I guess you could say they're using you for the spare
room in your new home that'scurrently being built.
Everyone wants a go of thebidet hose, which I have not
spoken about this season.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
No, you haven't.
I won't say.
I was wondering when you weregoing to weave it back into the
show, tammy.
But well done for doing that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The reason why I'm talking about friends and I was
curious to know about yourdifferent friendship groups is,
as I've mentioned on this show afew weeks ago I have a
girlfriend now.
It's a relatively newrelationship and usually what
happens at the start of arelationship is, once things are
going well, you startintroducing that partner to
friends.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, it was very early on that I met your
girlfriend.
You took that relationship fromnought to ten very quickly by
introducing her to your co-host.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I did.
So she hasn't met all of myfriends yet.
At some point I took her tomeet a group of friends at the
same time.
You know, get it out of the way, because I'm quite popular, I
have a lot of friends.
So I thought if we have to getthrough each one individually
and I've got the kids everysecond weekend, like it's going
to take a whole year.
So I thought, you know, we'llhave a gathering of friends.
(05:12):
You can meet a few at once.
And at the end of the meetingshe said to me were all of them
Jewish?
And I found myself getting likeself-conscious about the fact
that most of them were like 99%,and I don't know why.
(05:37):
It's something that I'm ashamedto admit.
That most of my close friendsnow are Jewish.
I feel like says somethingabout me that I'm not so
open-minded or that I don'tconnect with diverse people,
because I do.
I definitely do.
I just feel like my socialgroup has gotten smaller, Like
(05:58):
it's not that there's been aloss of trust with my non-Jewish
friends.
There's just been an ease sinceOctober 7 to not have this
elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, also, as you age, there'sa retraction of friendships and
sometimes a returning back tothe friendships that are most
established, most comfortable,where you really feel that
people see you really deeply forwho you are because they've
always known you.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, I mean, I do have a few non-Jewish friends
who I feel really close to and Ifeel like I can be my complete
self.
Thanks, tammy.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I've always said you can be yourself around me.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, my girlfriend, like most people, assumed you
were Jewish.
So I think what it comes downto is the fact that if I'm in a
room full of friends, if they'reJewish, I don't have to be on
guard or feel like I'm walkingon eggshells or kind of have
this high level of vigilancethat they might say something
about the Middle East that mightupset me.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You mean, like Israel is a settler, colonial state
and all Zionists are genocidalcrazed ethno-nationalists?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, so my non-Jewish friends wouldn't say
that, but they might say so.
What are your thoughts on?
I know that after October 7, alot of people were quite
offended that their non-Jewishfriends didn't reach out and
check in and see how they were.
For some reason that didn'toffend me as much because I am
(07:35):
well aware of how the algorithmworks and I just assumed that
those friends wouldn't have seenwhat was going on as much or
they have their own stuff goingon, so their silence didn't hurt
me.
But I know that for a lot ofpeople in the Jewish community
that was a huge factor in losingconnections and losing sense of
(07:56):
belonging in certain groups.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And that's really at the heart of this new book that
the Australian, jewish, israeli,russian she's got such a big
and a rich identity and story.
Lee Kaufman.
She's one of the extraordinarywomen behind this new book
called Ruptured.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And we had the privilege of chatting with Lee
today.
So pour that shot of vodka intoyour cup of tea, sit back,
relax or pull over if you'redriving and enjoy this chat with
Lee Kaufman.
Lee Kaufman, welcome to theAshamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
You are our first Siberian-born Jewish guest on
Ashamed to Admit, I amfascinated to learn more about
the Jewish community of Siberia,but let's first get a bit of a
sense of what your upbringingwas like in the former Soviet
Union.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Oh goodness, this is such a big question.
Up until I was six years old, Iwas raised by parents who were
pretty standard, sort of Jewish,soviet parents, you know.
They were kind of communists,quite idealists in terms of the
principles.
We feasted on pork at home.
(09:35):
I was born in Siberia, as yousaid, delicacies was I'm sorry,
this is going to be gross uh,uncooked slabs of pork, fat with
raw garlic in them and so Iloved it it was supposed to warm
us, because the winters insiberia could get to minus 40.
(09:58):
So and then, when I was six, somaybe closer to seven my parents
went through completetransformation.
We moved to Odessa, which isthe city of birth of my father
my mother is a Siberian Jew, myfather is Ukrainian Jew and
first of all it was warm, andsecondly, my parents became
religious, so they not onlystopped eating pork, but also
(10:22):
they wouldn't even say the wordpork.
You know, we stopped eatingpork, but also they wouldn't
even say the word pork, you know.
Then, of course, we startedliving in hiding in some ways,
like our home life became verysecretive because, as you
probably know well too, in theSoviet Union the god was exiled
or outlawed, you know.
So you were not supposed topractice any form of religion.
So I spent 12 years in Russia,my first six years in Siberia,
(10:46):
this next six years in Odessa.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And how was it that they came to being more
religious and more observant?
Because it's not like therewould have been lots of outlets
or places for them to adopt amore from lifestyle in Soviet
Russia.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
You're absolutely right.
I was a very sickly child.
I was born as a joke, but it'skind of not a joke.
I was born with a broken heart.
I had a hole in my heart andone of the arteries was too
narrow, and so it wasn't like aserious condition.
So if I was born in the Westwith this condition, there would
be just like a fairly simpleopen-heart surgery, as far as
(11:26):
they can be simple, and I willbe fine.
But you know, the Soviet Uniondid not put enough money into
medicine.
They put all their money intospace science, because that sort
of gave them, and into weaponsand things like this, because
that sort of fed their ego.
But hospitals were veryunderfunded, understaffed.
There were hardly any sort ofsober surgeons there or nurses.
(11:49):
This sounds again like like I'mjoking, but it's actually not.
It's actually really how it was, so late 1970s, early 1980s,
but the state of the medicinewas like 1950s in the west.
So my parents actually didn'tknow if I'll live or die.
For a long time I couldn't beeven operated upon because they
very soon in such bad state thatthey sort of the doctors wanted
(12:10):
to wait until I grow to be abit stronger in order to to do
the surgery.
So, as you can imagine, havingthe first child so sickly, with
kind of unclear prospects ofsurviving, have really affected
my idealist communist parents,and when they sort of really
(12:30):
confronted this system, themedical system in the Soviet
Union started raising questionsfor them.
Are we really living in thebest country in the world?
Are we really living in acountry where everybody is equal
when we need to bribe thesystem?
Eventually I was deemed to bewell enough to be to have a
surgery, and so we flew tomoscow and I was about to be
(12:53):
operated by a surgeon whosenickname was the butcher, which
is was because most of hispatients died, but his brother
was a very big shot in the party, in the communist party, so
nobody would fire him.
This is when my parentstransformation began.
This is when they met god.
So I say met god, but theyreally met godly people.
(13:13):
They met those few, veryreligious jewish refuseniks who
lived in the soviet union.
They were based in moscow.
It was group of them.
One of them was an anesthetist.
I can never pronounce the wordAnesthetist.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Ah, an anesthetist.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Thank you.
This doctor who I will notrepeat his name because I can't
helped my parents to bribe thebutcher not to operate on me,
and in the process he of coursecourse got them sort of into the
godly matters as well.
So my parents sort of reallyfelt very grateful to that group
of people.
They also prayed for me.
(13:52):
You know, I survived thesurgery and that was a very
transformative thing for myparents.
So the next thing they did theywent to the same doctor whose
name I cannot pronounce and he,while I was still in Moscow, he
did a home surgery on my father.
So give him, breathe me lovewhen my father was in his 30s
with his anesthetic, and then myparents, also in the same
(14:14):
Moscow apartment some of theseapartments, some Jewish person
apartment also got married theJewish way, and that then it
went on.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
But this was all done behind closed doors.
There was no public expressionof your Judaism, no possibility
of being outwardly religious.
It all had to be done in theprivacy of homes.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Absolutely so.
My father would wear, like youknow, he would wear kippah, but
when he would go outside of thehouse he would always put, like
you, a cap, like a kind of hat,some kind of hat on his head and
tragically you know these days,with the antisemitism, what is
happening he's back to putting ahat every time he goes out of
(14:58):
the house in New York where helives.
We just never know what's goingto happen.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How and why did the family end up in Israel?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
So we actually refused NICs.
We submitted papers to leavethe country even before my
parents became religious, abouta year before, because already
then my parents felt reallydeeply disillusioned with the
medical system, but we wererefused.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I am ashamed to admit I don't know what a refuse nick
is.
I'm assuming it's someone whorefuses to abide by the rules of
the Communist Party in formerUSSR, but I'm not quite sure.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So, tammy, I thank you for saying that.
Not only you shouldn't beashamed to admit, I'm ashamed.
I didn't explain because I'mwriting a book about it now and
my whole thesis is that weforgot a very important part of
Jewish history, which isrefuseniks.
The refuseniks were Jewishpeople in the Soviet Union who
(15:57):
submitted papers to apply to goto Israel and were refused
because it was a whole categoryof people.
So as soon as you would submitpapers to request the state to
allow you permission to live toIsrael, if you were refused,
your life would be completelychanged.
You will become a second.
Well, jews were alreadysecond-rate citizens in the
(16:17):
Soviet Union You'll becomethird-rate citizen.
The consequences would behorrendous.
Usually you would lose your jobor you would be demoted and
very much underpaid.
People would not want to beassociated with you, not to be
tainted by associations.
So your friends, a lot of yourfriendships, would be lost.
You know it's a bit like todaysaying I'm a Zionist, I'm a
(16:39):
proud Zionist Very similaractually.
So refuseniks were those Jewswho were just basically living
in the limbo in the Soviet Union.
You know, you would kind ofresubmit your application every
few months or years or wheneveryou could.
So we were refuseniks for sixyears.
We submitted papers asking tomove to Israel in late 1970s.
(17:01):
But there was a big wave ofJewish-Russian immigration to
Israel because there was somedeal cut between America, jamie
Carter and Brezhnev at the time.
But we were unlucky because wesubmitted just as the wave ended
.
But we didn't know when thatimmigration wave ended.
When my parents submitted theirfirst application.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So how did you finally get to Israel?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
So this is again a very long story which I'll
summarize.
Once my parents becamereligious as well.
That made them like not justrefusing, but like serious
dissidents because they werepracticing, you know, things
that you were not supposed to bepracticing.
When we came back to Odessaafter my surgery, some of the
other refuseniks my parents knewstarted kind of to come to
(17:46):
religion as well, and othersouted themselves as being
religious, which before theydidn't to my parents and so
somehow, without meaning to myparents, ended up being leaders
of religious Jewish undergroundin Odessa and our house became a
hub of terribly illegal,horrible activities like
(18:09):
horrible crimes, like learningHebrew in groups together or
celebrating Shabbat.
You know we've done all thoseterrible, terrible things.
So very boring.
But the KGB was veryinteresting.
So my parents became like anuisance for the KGB.
They became dangerous agitatorsin their eyes, came agitate,
dangerous agitators in the eyes,and so six years later the KGB
(18:30):
just had enough of us,especially that at the end of
those six years my mother, whowas heavily pregnant with her
fourth child, turned up at thelocal KGB office and said if
you're not going to finally giveus the permit to go, I'm going
to burn myself pregnant in thepublic space.
She didn't mean it, but theysort of believed her.
But at that time we've alreadywell known my family, was well
(18:54):
known in the west as well,especially among jewish
communities.
So I don't think they wanted torisk such bad press.
You know pregnant, you knowdoing something to herself.
So they let us go in 1985,which was literally two months
after Gorbachev came into power,so just before, just a few
(19:18):
years before, again, anothermass Jewish-Russian migration.
But at the time when we leftthere was literally like maybe
10 people on that plane and fiveout of them was my family.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So, le, you touched on the kind of eerie symmetry
between having to hide one'sJudaism in former USSR and how
many Australian Jews are feelingtoday in contemporary Australia
, and you've written for theJewish Independent before.
(19:52):
One of the pieces thatresonated with me the most was a
piece you wrote about yourfather and his experience as a
quote Zionist traitor and yourown experience being doxed in
Australia in 2024, what was itlike to realise that you were
(20:14):
now that bad Jew in quotationmarks and did that realisation
shift your sense of belonging orstability in Australia?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yes, yeah, it sort of enhanced it.
I mean, being an Israeli Jew aswell in Australia, I've been
sensing the antagonism towardsJewish people, and especially in
terms of their connection toIsrael, for a very long time,
because since I came toAustralia my main circles of
(20:48):
professional circles and circlesof friendships were non-Jewish
artistic and academic circles,and so I already knew very well
from different microaggressionsthat I've experienced over my 25
years here, from differentblunders of my friends who
always mean well but don'talways know what they're saying.
(21:12):
I kind of felt it for a verylong time that a bit like in the
soviet union I mean, I'm a bitof a I was always sort of second
rate citizens in the arts andacademic circles in australia.
I was sort of circles inaustralia.
I was sort of accepted on thecondition of my russianness.
(21:34):
Interestingly so I've neverever had anybody say anything
negative to me about putin orabout the you know, ukrainian
russian war, only only lovelythings and often people saying
things like, oh, you're fromrussia.
I love russian literature andlike everybody was always in
those circles who want to talkto me with my russians part of
(21:56):
me or ukrainian part of me aswell, but nobody ever or maybe
maybe some very few exceptionswas sort of interested in
discussing with me anythingabout my life in israel, which
is where I spent my formativeyears, from the age of 12 till
26, even though I've writtenabout it and so I kind of
(22:17):
already knew that I was alwaysin danger of being a bad jew,
but I kind of managed to surviveand and become, and you know,
and be invited to places andfestivals and included pretty
nicely on the strengths of beingthe Russian Jew.
When October 7 happened and thesubsequent doxing of the Jewish
(22:40):
creatives happened, it was fullon, but I was not shell-shocked
by it.
I suppose I anticipated that.
I just didn't anticipate theextent of it all.
Shocked by it.
I suppose I anticipated that.
I just didn't anticipate theextent of it.
I did not anticipate findingmyself one day online everywhere
(23:00):
my photo with a caption agenocidal Zionist or whatever
else was captioned.
That made me think of my fatherand mother.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Absolutely.
For listeners who aren't aware,the doxing was a result of Lee
being the founder or co-founderand coordinator of a WhatsApp
group for Jewish artists,creatives, academics, others
with a loose connection to thosesectors, who were brought
(23:26):
together in the weeks afterOctober 7th and ultimately the
group's messages andcommunications were leaked and
shared openly on social mediachannels.
And then the resulting doxingthat came from that, which we
can perhaps come back to againin a moment.
(23:49):
But, Leigh, just interested tohear the story around why you
decided to create the WhatsAppgroup in the first place.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, look, I created it on the 30th of October
thinking if I get 50 people,that's great, we can support
each other.
Within a few days it grew up to600-something.
At the time when I did thatgroup, we were all so
shell-shocked and also I thinkour community was still sort of
(24:17):
like really starting to justcoming to grips with this
immediate horrendous outburst ofantisemitism post-october 7,
before even, as we all know,before even Israel started
retaliating the silence, andthen, all you know, all that
ensued.
So I just felt very helpless.
I felt like I lost my tribe,which is my tribe of creative
(24:43):
people Academic I wasn't as muchin academy by then already
anyway, but yeah, the artisticsort of tribe.
I just felt I just saw my peers, my sort of all these writers
I've admired and liked andfriended, signing all these very
biased, uninformed letters, youknow.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, there was one petition that I seem to recall
that was released out of one ofthe literary journals of which
you may even have previouslybeen a contributor to certainly
would have had friends andcolleagues that would have and I
seem to recall this petitionagain was released well before
Israel began its militaryoperation in Gaza.
(25:25):
There was almost noacknowledgement of what Israelis
experienced on that day, thelevel of violence the brutality.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
There was no acknowledgement.
Sorry to interrupt you, but theinitial letter, which already
was signed by several hundredpeople, contained the sentence
if crimes were committed onOctober 7th.
It subsequently was changed,but we have the screenshots and
we know that sentence was there.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
And then there was an additional line or paragraph
that I still recall, which wasto the effect of these cannot be
taken without the context ofIsrael's occupation since 1948.
So it was essentially as ifIsrael, what do you expect?
You've been occupying thesepeople since 1948.
(26:16):
This is all justified.
That was the effect, and Ithink many of the people that
were on that group and I'massuming this is part of the
reason why you formed the groupwere just shocked to see the
long list of artists andcreatives and entertainers.
There were a number ofhigh-profile Australian
entertainers that signed thatstatement.
(26:37):
It certainly shocked and struckme as an incredibly
dehumanising public statementthat so many people in the
Australian arts and creativespaces were keen to attach
themselves to.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Daph, thank you because you described it so well
and much better than me.
That was exactly the letterthat prompted my action.
In fact, I remember how I foundout about it because my friend
messaged me who is I'm not goingto say the name he's a
non-Jewish historian who knewall the fallacies in that letter
.
You know there was also factualmistakes, like you know, saying
that the hospital, that Israelbombed it, that she didn't bomb
(27:15):
it, but anyway.
So ironically, I actually foundit from that particular person
and I remember sitting in thecar with the spring onions
sticking and smelling everywhereand sitting in complete despair
, reading that letter and thesignatures in my car and going.
It just went in my head, like Ijust said this sentence in my
head either I'm going to sinkinto depression now or I'm going
(27:38):
to do something.
So I went home, wrote thatemail to any Jewish writer I
knew at the time.
Later it expanded to allcreatives and academics as well
and said well, let's do a letter, let's do something.
And then I did this and Ithought, well, if I'm going to
organize the letter, you may aswell just do a whatsapp group
might be.
I've never even used whatsappbefore.
(27:58):
It was the first time Idownloaded on my phone.
I may as well just like do itthrough whatsapp.
It will be a bit easier togather signatures and write a
letter.
And then I thought, well, ifyou already have a whatsapp
group, maybe we can support eachother.
Because I was in such pain.
I was in such pain like,seriously I I've had tough
things happening in my life, butthat was one of the greatest
(28:22):
pains in that car those springonions seriously it really hurt.
So I just thought the groupwould be a great space for us to
process the pain and then toalso, if we want to do some
collective action, to do somecollective action.
But of course, if we just docollective action, it's lobbyism
.
We are lobbyists, we are doingsome terrible things, even
(28:44):
though there are WhatsApp groupsfor every cause possible.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I think what was so heartbreaking for many people
was that, as you described, thegroup's intent was support
focused, and yet the transcriptsof that group then got
downloaded, got leaked and thenpeople combed through 900 pages
(29:07):
of WhatsApp transcripts lookingfor evidence of wrongdoing, and
that can really shatter people'ssense of self, even people who
weren't in the group.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
And I think that perhaps the peak of it, tammy,
was the release of a sheet ofthe names and photos of various
members of the group, almostlike a kind of a hit list.
Yeah, here are the people thathave participated in this group.
Here are their names, here aretheir occupations, here are
their affiliations.
(29:38):
Lee, this must have taken youright back to Soviet-era Russia.
It must have felt like that'sexactly what I was thinking Some
form of.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
KGB shit.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, type of operation.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
And even to the extent that the conspiracy
theories around us.
My friends got phone calls frompeople saying is Lee working
for Mossad?
And one of my friends said,well, she's not fit enough.
So really, the anti-Zionistrhetoric and activists.
They're really rehashing somuch of what was going on in the
(30:16):
Soviet Union the same language,the same theories.
They're drawing all the age-oldconspiracies about the powerful
Jews as well.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Lee, I know that the group is still going and I know
that you're continuing to be asupport and a moderator and a
kind of facilitator of Jewishcreatives during this time,
which remains very volatile andanxiety provoking for a lot of
Jewish people here in Australiaand around the world.
So I guess the bright side onthis is that you've been able to
(30:50):
forge a community under verydifficult circumstances.
But what have you lost in thetime since October 7th?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
I've been a teacher of writing as well as writer in
Australia for a really long time, for probably I don't know
almost 20 years now, and I don'twant to sort of I don't mean to
sound like I'm, you know,blowing my own horn or whatever
the expression is in english,but I just want to give you the
contrast soon in terms of losinghow much for me.
(31:22):
So up until october 7, or eventhe dog thing I've been teaching
all around Australia constantly.
In fact, I was constantlythinking how can I reduce my
teaching so I can write more?
My classes are almost alwaysnot just book out, but also I
have waiting lists.
Because I'm passionate aboutteaching.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I think I just love it so much you're great, lee,
like I, going to give youpermission to blow your own horn
.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Sorry about that, I'm only saying no, I'm saying do
it because you're amazing.
That's very beautiful, but theonly reason I'm actually
mentioning because it's reallynot in my character to speak
like this of myself is onlybecause the contrast of what
happened after is so sharp.
So I get about maybe 25% ofteaching bookings to what I did
before October 7.
(32:10):
Leacher organizations, whom I'mnot going to name, but major
leacher organizations with whomI've had very strong, very close
association, mutual support,not just them supporting me,
Organizations where I served inmany different roles, would not
book me now.
So because I don't know why,maybe because I'm a genocidal
(32:31):
Zionist, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Can we talk, maybe, about what you've gained?
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Yes, thank you.
Of course I'm no longerprepared to, as I did before, to
minimize my Jewishness and myIsraelness as a writer, and I
know now that my publicationprospects are very uncertain
because of that.
Because up until now, everytime I would write a book or
even an essay, I would be andI'm ashamed to admit on your
(33:00):
podcast, I'm very ashamed toadmit I used to calculate how
far can I push writing aboutthat side of me before a
publisher will say to me, no,I'm not taking that, or a
reviewer will say somethingnegative.
So I've always used to kind oftry and find a balance.
I mean, I've always writtenabout my Jewish side, but I kind
(33:23):
of kept to the safe Jewishtopics, more you know.
So it was okay for me always towrite about how, I say,
rebelled against religion inwhich I was brought up that you
know.
But I wouldn't say discuss theways in which I'm attached to
Israel, I wouldn't critiqueIsrael.
So I wouldn't be sort of honestabout those parts of myself,
not in terms of writingsomething dishonest, but just I
(33:46):
wouldn't write, wouldn't fullyexplore my Jewishness.
Whereas now I feel like I haveto.
I will always write aboutwhat's urgent and that's what's
urgent for me to write about now.
So I definitely feel like Ilost a lot of potential
publishing prospects.
I definitely feel so much moreconnected to the Jewish
community in ways I've neverbeen before.
(34:08):
I feel as a writer that I kindof write now not just for my
life, as I've always done but Ihope it doesn't sound
pretentious, I don't mean it inthis way, but I feel like I'm
also writing for other peoplewho kind of relate to what I'm
going through in my communityand hopefully maybe some other
minorities not just Jewishminorities who maybe feel
(34:29):
silenced in some ways.
So when Tamar Paluch and twoother wonderful women from our
editorial committee, simone Wineand Romy Muszynski invited me
to co-editor them, this bookRuptured.
It was just so wonderfulbecause I kind of felt really
(34:49):
voiceless.
I felt like at the time and Istill feel like this to quite
large extent but everything thatI have to say about what it's
like to be Jewish now, today, isnot going to be published in
mainstream left-leaningpublications.
So it will be hard to reach forme audiences which I want to
reach or the kind of audienceswho I want to change their, the
kind of audiences who I want tochange their minds, although I
(35:11):
do try to do it through socialmedia.
But I just felt like that bookwas for me a really good way of
not succumbing to againdepression and anger and,
instead of giving voice to otherpeople and to myself, to say
what we have to say about how wefeel these days lee.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Why the decision to have the collection be purely
the voice of women?
I'm interested in that choiceand what it was about their
experiences that you felt neededto be collated into a single
edition so that's a very goodquestion.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
So I was invited into this project when it was
already performed as a projectof giving voices to women.
So I can't take credit for that, but it spoke to me.
It's not that I think men'svoices are not valid.
I think they're just as valid.
It's just that there was anaspect to what happened in
October 7 and the aftermath thatwas distinctly female in
(36:11):
several ways.
First of all, the horrendous,deliberate sexual violence has
impacted women so much.
I know it impacted me very muchin my intimacy.
I mean, it's hard not to think,not to have those thoughts,
those flashbacks, those thingsin my own private daily life and
I know that I'm not the onlyone who says that but my
(36:34):
sexuality definitely has beenimpacted by what happened on
October 7th and I'm always happyto talk about it because I
think we need to talk about it.
It wasn't just a far away thingthat happened to women, it's
also I mean, of course I'm notin any way comparing myself to
the real victims, but I thinkmany of us have felt our
(36:56):
relationship with sex has beenimpacted.
Then the betrayal of feminists.
You know the Me Too, the allthat you know, I don't need to
talk about it a lot.
We all know what I mean.
So the betrayal of feminism Imean, my writing has always had
a very strong feminist angle toit and so for me, to sort of, I
(37:17):
just don't feel what I belong infeminist spaces in ways I used
to belong in feministconversations.
I feel very betrayed by myso-called sisters.
And then another aspect of itwhat happened was that at least
I can only speak about australia.
I don't know how it's in othercountries, but in australia
there's so much grassroots,unpaid activism sprung since
(37:39):
october 7th in our communities,and it's predominantly, I would
say, women who give their unpaidtime and and effort.
I mean, even in our WhatsAppgroup there's a group of us who
are administrators.
We're all women, but there's somany men in the group, so this
is not a go at men.
It's just to say this is howthings are.
So these are the kind ofdistinct dimensions we wanted to
(38:02):
explore in this book as well.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
You have some pretty amazing contributors as well.
You have some pretty amazingcontributors including Deborah
Conway, carly Moore, gilbert,jemima Montag.
People are going to get angryat me if I leave their names out
.
Did I say Kerry Sackville,joanne Fedler?
Some really big names.
Clearly, there are somepatterns that emerge from all of
(38:27):
these essays shared griefs,feeling of isolation, of
disappointment.
I'm curious to know if therewere any contradictions or
general divides between people'sexperiences that surprised you
and the editorial team.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
I was actually surprised in how many
similarities there were betweenthe essays.
Our biggest challenge, mychallenge, was actually, I think
, in some ways to make theessays as distinct and possible,
and I hope we succeeded.
I hope so, even though westrived, and indeed included
women from lots of differentoccupations and age groups and
(39:08):
all sorts of you know differentidentities and demographics and
you know experiences.
The essence really, to me thatit's almost like a conversation.
They're always like talking toeach other, and one of the
biggest echoing themes fromthrough this was silence.
There's so much silence in thisessay, different types of
silences, the silences betweenfriends, the silence of um in
(39:34):
war places, that self-silence,silencing of a lot of people.
I mean, for example, in heressay, dina kaplan, the actress
and the singer.
In her and then in her essayshe writes that when I first
approached her and asked her tocontribute an essay, she said no
(39:55):
, she was too scared.
When the first hostages werereleased, she decided well, can
I swear on the podcast?
No, yes, fuck it, I'm going towrite the essay, doesn't matter
that I was bullied and terribly.
You know she was really abusedonline.
She writes about that and shewrote her wonderful essay then
(40:16):
for us.
So yeah, so silence has been ahuge thing between these essays.
You asked me about thedifferences, but it's the
similarities that strike me.
I mean the specifics always arevery different and that's
interesting too.
It's interesting what everybodychose to focus on.
Some essays focus more onresilience.
Some essays are darker, and I'mglad they're darker.
(40:39):
I don't think we need toresolve everything, because
nothing is, sadly, resolved yet.
Even the war hasn't ended yet.
But another sort of recurringmotif across so many races was,
as we say in Himu Hinani, here IAm.
This sort of refrain of justthe fact of our existence at the
(41:01):
moment is political andpowerful.
The fact that we exist.
I mean, so many people are outthere wanting to kill us or
whatever do to us, and we'restill here.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
You mentioned before that you were concerned about
publishing prospects.
The book was published by.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
The Jewish Library of Australia, we were very
pleasantly surprised with twomajor Australian book
distributors offered us theirservices and one of them took us
on.
So we didn't expect it and wealso did not expect to get into
any bookshops.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
That was going to be my next question.
Is the book available inbookshops?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
This is a very good question, so, as we're sort of
discussing it, the bookdistribution is in a very strong
, energetic process.
So a lot of bookshops inAustralia became gatekeepers for
Jewish authors and Jewishthemes, and I'm not afraid to
say that.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Neither am I.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
So we have some wonderful, wonderful friends,
like, of course, the AvenueBookshops in Melbourne, one of
them.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Gertrude Nellis in Sydney.
Oh my.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
God, yes, the Little Bird in Brazil, but to my great
surprise so far.
Maybe ask me in a few monthsI'll say something else, but so
far quite a few bookshops are,yeah, ordered copies, and not
just the bookshops I expected.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
You have had an extraordinary life, an
extraordinary journey from asmall town in Siberia, a little
Jewish girl with, as you saidearlier, a broken heart, an
Israeli party girl, AustralianJewish mother, a successful
writer and writing teacher, whothen encountered a sort of
(42:49):
shocking level of intoleranceand backlash and professional
isolation.
I'm wondering what you'velearned and how you've grown
personally through this time.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
I think I'm still growing through that, but I'm
just learning more to be myselfin life and on the page, my
authentic self.
I'm learning to stop panderingto other people's levels of
tolerance.
I'm also learning slowly thatthere are lots of great people
(43:24):
also in the literary scene.
They're just quiet people.
Also in the literary scene.
They're just quiet.
So I've actually been again inthe last half a year, probably
again asked more and more toteach, but not for those big
literature organizations.
It's the good people who arequiet and less formal and don't
get government funding.
Who's been actually quietlysupporting people like myself.
(43:47):
I love Jewish writers, so I'mlearning that there are good
people there that are just notnecessarily in power in the
literary circles.
But it's also terrifying if mynon-Jewish friendships almost
completely all of them survivedand intact.
But there are some things weavoid.
So in the essay In Rapture, inmy own essay, I really wrote
(44:08):
things as they are and I knowthat a lot of my non-Jewish
friends are beautifully going tosupport me and come to the book
launches that we have and getthe book.
Some already ordered the book,but I don't know what will
happen after they read my essaybecause most of them are writers
and of course I don't sayanything bad about my friends
(44:29):
there because I love my friendsand I know the support in every
way they were capable of.
But I do say quite big thingsabout the literary community in
Australia.
So I just kind of bracingmyself to see will I have some
open and difficult conversationswith my friends after they get
in the book and what will happennext.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, you strike me as an incredibly brave and
courageous person, leigh, andsomeone who's very resilient,
even if they read it and theydon't like what they read.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I think Tam and I both know that you'll be okay,
thank you and the book again iscalled Ruptured Jewish Women in
Australia Reflect on Lifepost-October 7, edited by you,
our special guests Lee Kaufmanand Tamara Paluch, available
online and in any good not justgood exceptional bookstore.
(45:23):
Thank you so much for joiningus today, lee.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Thank you very much, Vok you very much for such a
rich conversation that was leekaufman, co-editor of ruptured.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
We'll put those details in the show notes for
today's episode, but that's itfor this week.
You've been listening to ashame, to admit with me dash
lawrence and me tammy suss.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than a shot of vodka
in your cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Are you curious to know how the lives of Australian
Jewish women were irrevocablychanged by the events of October
7?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And are you interested in how the creative
landscape has changed for Jewishartists in Australia since
October 8?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
In this week's episode of Ashamed to Admit,
you'll be hearing from LeeKaufman, writing teacher, mentor
, author and editor of ninebooks in Hebrew and English.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Lee Kaufman is a long-time contributor to the
Jewish Independent and, togetherwith Tamar Paluch, she's also
the co-editor of a series ofessays called Ruptured, which is
being released this week.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Who knows if she'll be ashamed to admit anything.
It's season three of thisJewish Independent podcast and
we seem to be dropping our shameSome of us more than others.
Tammy, come along for the ride,as we have a go at cutting
through some seriously chewy anddewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Welcome to this week's episode of A Shame to
Admit.
Welcome back everyone.
I'm Dash Lawrence, executiveDirector here at the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
And I'm your third cousin, which is not the same
thing as a second cousin onceremoved, Tammy Sussman.
It's also quite possible thatI'm 8% to 10% genetically
similar to you.
Dash, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I'm good.
I'm good.
I'm suffering through aMelbourne winter, ready for a
bit of a break from these cold,dark days.
Actually going to take a briefoverseas holiday in a couple of
weeks, tammy, are you?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yes, where are you going?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Nowhere special.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Oh, he doesn't want to say.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
No, I'm going to Bali .
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah for a wedding.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Whose wedding?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Not telling you.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
No, I don't need names and addresses, I'm just
saying genre, family member,friend.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Old school friend.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Old school friend.
Yeah, do you keep in touch withyour old school friends.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Of course, yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah, yeah.
Still very close.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, so you're going to be catching up with a few of
your school friends, correct?
Yeah, so you've got your schoolfriends.
Do you also have uni friends?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, I've got uni friends.
I've got work friends.
I have other random people thatI've picked up along the way
Marathon friends, Marathonfriends, running friends.
I've got quite a disparatefriendship group Like.
A lot of them don't know eachother and are not connected at
all, so it always makes for aninteresting birthday party for
(02:49):
me when I bring them alltogether.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Okay.
Do you have a group of Jewishfriends that you keep separate
to your non-Jewish friends?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I don't keep them separate, they just happen to be
separate.
But then, to be fair, some ofthem are separate to each other.
So I have obviously so manyJewish friends that plenty of
them are not known to each other.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Oh, he has so many Jewish friends.
Are you quite popular?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Sorry, let me rephrase that I have a number of
Jewish friends.
I have so many.
That was a bit of anexaggeration.
I have many Jewish friends.
I have a number.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, how many.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
As you'd expect, given that I've spent a large
chunk of my working life workingin and around Jewish
communities, I'm like I'm notgoing to count.
What is this Like?
Some sort of inquisition?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
KGB inquisition.
I thought you were going to sayI have so many Jewish friends
because I'm just a pretty fun,interesting guy and I always
come to social events with a bitof triv.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, well, that's true.
I don't think there's anyconnection between that and my
Jewish friends.
They like me for differentreasons.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I guess you could say they're using you for the spare
room in your new home that'scurrently being built.
Everyone wants a go of thebidet hose, which I have not
spoken about this season.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
No, you haven't.
I won't say.
I was wondering when you weregoing to weave it back into the
show, tammy.
But well done for doing that.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The reason why I'm talking about friends and I was
curious to know about yourdifferent friendship groups is,
as I've mentioned on this show afew weeks ago I have a
girlfriend now.
It's a relatively newrelationship and usually what
happens at the start of arelationship is, once things are
going well, you startintroducing that partner to
friends.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, it was very early on that I met your
girlfriend.
You took that relationship fromnought to ten very quickly by
introducing her to your co-host.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I did.
So she hasn't met all of myfriends yet.
At some point I took her tomeet a group of friends at the
same time.
You know, get it out of the way, because I'm quite popular, I
have a lot of friends.
So I thought if we have to getthrough each one individually
and I've got the kids everysecond weekend, like it's going
to take a whole year.
So I thought, you know, we'llhave a gathering of friends.
(05:12):
You can meet a few at once.
And at the end of the meetingshe said to me were all of them
Jewish?
And I found myself getting likeself-conscious about the fact
that most of them were like 99%,and I don't know why.
(05:37):
It's something that I'm ashamedto admit.
That most of my close friendsnow are Jewish.
I feel like says somethingabout me that I'm not so
open-minded or that I don'tconnect with diverse people,
because I do.
I definitely do.
I just feel like my socialgroup has gotten smaller, Like
(05:58):
it's not that there's been aloss of trust with my non-Jewish
friends.
There's just been an ease sinceOctober 7 to not have this
elephant in the room.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, also, as you age, there'sa retraction of friendships and
sometimes a returning back tothe friendships that are most
established, most comfortable,where you really feel that
people see you really deeply forwho you are because they've
always known you.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah, I mean, I do have a few non-Jewish friends
who I feel really close to and Ifeel like I can be my complete
self.
Thanks, tammy.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I've always said you can be yourself around me.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, my girlfriend, like most people, assumed you
were Jewish.
So I think what it comes downto is the fact that if I'm in a
room full of friends, if they'reJewish, I don't have to be on
guard or feel like I'm walkingon eggshells or kind of have
this high level of vigilancethat they might say something
about the Middle East that mightupset me.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
You mean, like Israel is a settler, colonial state
and all Zionists are genocidalcrazed ethno-nationalists?
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, so my non-Jewish friends wouldn't say
that, but they might say so.
What are your thoughts on?
I know that after October 7, alot of people were quite
offended that their non-Jewishfriends didn't reach out and
check in and see how they were.
For some reason that didn'toffend me as much because I am
(07:35):
well aware of how the algorithmworks and I just assumed that
those friends wouldn't have seenwhat was going on as much or
they have their own stuff goingon, so their silence didn't hurt
me.
But I know that for a lot ofpeople in the Jewish community
that was a huge factor in losingconnections and losing sense of
(07:56):
belonging in certain groups.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And that's really at the heart of this new book that
the Australian, jewish, israeli,russian she's got such a big
and a rich identity and story.
Lee Kaufman.
She's one of the extraordinarywomen behind this new book
called Ruptured.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
And we had the privilege of chatting with Lee
today.
So pour that shot of vodka intoyour cup of tea, sit back,
relax or pull over if you'redriving and enjoy this chat with
Lee Kaufman.
Lee Kaufman, welcome to theAshamed to Admit studio.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
You are our first Siberian-born Jewish guest on
Ashamed to Admit, I amfascinated to learn more about
the Jewish community of Siberia,but let's first get a bit of a
sense of what your upbringingwas like in the former Soviet
Union.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Oh goodness, this is such a big question.
Up until I was six years old, Iwas raised by parents who were
pretty standard, sort of Jewish,soviet parents, you know.
They were kind of communists,quite idealists in terms of the
principles.
We feasted on pork at home.
(09:35):
I was born in Siberia, as yousaid, delicacies was I'm sorry,
this is going to be gross uh,uncooked slabs of pork, fat with
raw garlic in them and so Iloved it it was supposed to warm
us, because the winters insiberia could get to minus 40.
(09:58):
So and then, when I was six, somaybe closer to seven my parents
went through completetransformation.
We moved to Odessa, which isthe city of birth of my father
my mother is a Siberian Jew, myfather is Ukrainian Jew and
first of all it was warm, andsecondly, my parents became
religious, so they not onlystopped eating pork, but also
(10:22):
they wouldn't even say the wordpork.
You know, we stopped eatingpork, but also they wouldn't
even say the word pork, you know.
Then, of course, we startedliving in hiding in some ways,
like our home life became verysecretive because, as you
probably know well too, in theSoviet Union the god was exiled
or outlawed, you know.
So you were not supposed topractice any form of religion.
So I spent 12 years in Russia,my first six years in Siberia,
(10:46):
this next six years in Odessa.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And how was it that they came to being more
religious and more observant?
Because it's not like therewould have been lots of outlets
or places for them to adopt amore from lifestyle in Soviet
Russia.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
You're absolutely right.
I was a very sickly child.
I was born as a joke, but it'skind of not a joke.
I was born with a broken heart.
I had a hole in my heart andone of the arteries was too
narrow, and so it wasn't like aserious condition.
So if I was born in the Westwith this condition, there would
be just like a fairly simpleopen-heart surgery, as far as
(11:26):
they can be simple, and I willbe fine.
But you know, the Soviet Uniondid not put enough money into
medicine.
They put all their money intospace science, because that sort
of gave them, and into weaponsand things like this, because
that sort of fed their ego.
But hospitals were veryunderfunded, understaffed.
There were hardly any sort ofsober surgeons there or nurses.
(11:49):
This sounds again like like I'mjoking, but it's actually not.
It's actually really how it was, so late 1970s, early 1980s,
but the state of the medicinewas like 1950s in the west.
So my parents actually didn'tknow if I'll live or die.
For a long time I couldn't beeven operated upon because they
very soon in such bad state thatthey sort of the doctors wanted
(12:10):
to wait until I grow to be abit stronger in order to to do
the surgery.
So, as you can imagine, havingthe first child so sickly, with
kind of unclear prospects ofsurviving, have really affected
my idealist communist parents,and when they sort of really
(12:30):
confronted this system, themedical system in the Soviet
Union started raising questionsfor them.
Are we really living in thebest country in the world?
Are we really living in acountry where everybody is equal
when we need to bribe thesystem?
Eventually I was deemed to bewell enough to be to have a
surgery, and so we flew tomoscow and I was about to be
(12:53):
operated by a surgeon whosenickname was the butcher, which
is was because most of hispatients died, but his brother
was a very big shot in the party, in the communist party, so
nobody would fire him.
This is when my parentstransformation began.
This is when they met god.
So I say met god, but theyreally met godly people.
(13:13):
They met those few, veryreligious jewish refuseniks who
lived in the soviet union.
They were based in moscow.
It was group of them.
One of them was an anesthetist.
I can never pronounce the wordAnesthetist.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Ah, an anesthetist.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Thank you.
This doctor who I will notrepeat his name because I can't
helped my parents to bribe thebutcher not to operate on me,
and in the process he of coursecourse got them sort of into the
godly matters as well.
So my parents sort of reallyfelt very grateful to that group
of people.
They also prayed for me.
(13:52):
You know, I survived thesurgery and that was a very
transformative thing for myparents.
So the next thing they did theywent to the same doctor whose
name I cannot pronounce and he,while I was still in Moscow, he
did a home surgery on my father.
So give him, breathe me lovewhen my father was in his 30s
with his anesthetic, and then myparents, also in the same
(14:14):
Moscow apartment some of theseapartments, some Jewish person
apartment also got married theJewish way, and that then it
went on.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
But this was all done behind closed doors.
There was no public expressionof your Judaism, no possibility
of being outwardly religious.
It all had to be done in theprivacy of homes.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Absolutely so.
My father would wear, like youknow, he would wear kippah, but
when he would go outside of thehouse he would always put, like
you, a cap, like a kind of hat,some kind of hat on his head and
tragically you know these days,with the antisemitism, what is
happening he's back to putting ahat every time he goes out of
(14:58):
the house in New York where helives.
We just never know what's goingto happen.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
How and why did the family end up in Israel?
Speaker 3 (15:06):
So we actually refused NICs.
We submitted papers to leavethe country even before my
parents became religious, abouta year before, because already
then my parents felt reallydeeply disillusioned with the
medical system, but we wererefused.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I am ashamed to admit I don't know what a refuse nick
is.
I'm assuming it's someone whorefuses to abide by the rules of
the Communist Party in formerUSSR, but I'm not quite sure.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So, tammy, I thank you for saying that.
Not only you shouldn't beashamed to admit, I'm ashamed.
I didn't explain because I'mwriting a book about it now and
my whole thesis is that weforgot a very important part of
Jewish history, which isrefuseniks.
The refuseniks were Jewishpeople in the Soviet Union who
(15:57):
submitted papers to apply to goto Israel and were refused
because it was a whole categoryof people.
So as soon as you would submitpapers to request the state to
allow you permission to live toIsrael, if you were refused,
your life would be completelychanged.
You will become a second.
Well, jews were alreadysecond-rate citizens in the
(16:17):
Soviet Union You'll becomethird-rate citizen.
The consequences would behorrendous.
Usually you would lose your jobor you would be demoted and
very much underpaid.
People would not want to beassociated with you, not to be
tainted by associations.
So your friends, a lot of yourfriendships, would be lost.
You know it's a bit like todaysaying I'm a Zionist, I'm a
(16:39):
proud Zionist Very similaractually.
So refuseniks were those Jewswho were just basically living
in the limbo in the Soviet Union.
You know, you would kind ofresubmit your application every
few months or years or wheneveryou could.
So we were refuseniks for sixyears.
We submitted papers asking tomove to Israel in late 1970s.
(17:01):
But there was a big wave ofJewish-Russian immigration to
Israel because there was somedeal cut between America, jamie
Carter and Brezhnev at the time.
But we were unlucky because wesubmitted just as the wave ended
.
But we didn't know when thatimmigration wave ended.
When my parents submitted theirfirst application.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So how did you finally get to Israel?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
So this is again a very long story which I'll
summarize.
Once my parents becamereligious as well.
That made them like not justrefusing, but like serious
dissidents because they werepracticing, you know, things
that you were not supposed to bepracticing.
When we came back to Odessaafter my surgery, some of the
other refuseniks my parents knewstarted kind of to come to
(17:46):
religion as well, and othersouted themselves as being
religious, which before theydidn't to my parents and so
somehow, without meaning to myparents, ended up being leaders
of religious Jewish undergroundin Odessa and our house became a
hub of terribly illegal,horrible activities like
(18:09):
horrible crimes, like learningHebrew in groups together or
celebrating Shabbat.
You know we've done all thoseterrible, terrible things.
So very boring.
But the KGB was veryinteresting.
So my parents became like anuisance for the KGB.
They became dangerous agitatorsin their eyes, came agitate,
dangerous agitators in the eyes,and so six years later the KGB
(18:30):
just had enough of us,especially that at the end of
those six years my mother, whowas heavily pregnant with her
fourth child, turned up at thelocal KGB office and said if
you're not going to finally giveus the permit to go, I'm going
to burn myself pregnant in thepublic space.
She didn't mean it, but theysort of believed her.
But at that time we've alreadywell known my family, was well
(18:54):
known in the west as well,especially among jewish
communities.
So I don't think they wanted torisk such bad press.
You know pregnant, you knowdoing something to herself.
So they let us go in 1985,which was literally two months
after Gorbachev came into power,so just before, just a few
(19:18):
years before, again, anothermass Jewish-Russian migration.
But at the time when we leftthere was literally like maybe
10 people on that plane and fiveout of them was my family.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So, le, you touched on the kind of eerie symmetry
between having to hide one'sJudaism in former USSR and how
many Australian Jews are feelingtoday in contemporary Australia
, and you've written for theJewish Independent before.
(19:52):
One of the pieces thatresonated with me the most was a
piece you wrote about yourfather and his experience as a
quote Zionist traitor and yourown experience being doxed in
Australia in 2024, what was itlike to realise that you were
(20:14):
now that bad Jew in quotationmarks and did that realisation
shift your sense of belonging orstability in Australia?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yes, yeah, it sort of enhanced it.
I mean, being an Israeli Jew aswell in Australia, I've been
sensing the antagonism towardsJewish people, and especially in
terms of their connection toIsrael, for a very long time,
because since I came toAustralia my main circles of
(20:48):
professional circles and circlesof friendships were non-Jewish
artistic and academic circles,and so I already knew very well
from different microaggressionsthat I've experienced over my 25
years here, from differentblunders of my friends who
always mean well but don'talways know what they're saying.
(21:12):
I kind of felt it for a verylong time that a bit like in the
soviet union I mean, I'm a bitof a I was always sort of second
rate citizens in the arts andacademic circles in australia.
I was sort of circles inaustralia.
I was sort of accepted on thecondition of my russianness.
(21:34):
Interestingly so I've neverever had anybody say anything
negative to me about putin orabout the you know, ukrainian
russian war, only only lovelythings and often people saying
things like, oh, you're fromrussia.
I love russian literature andlike everybody was always in
those circles who want to talkto me with my russians part of
(21:56):
me or ukrainian part of me aswell, but nobody ever or maybe
maybe some very few exceptionswas sort of interested in
discussing with me anythingabout my life in israel, which
is where I spent my formativeyears, from the age of 12 till
26, even though I've writtenabout it and so I kind of
(22:17):
already knew that I was alwaysin danger of being a bad jew,
but I kind of managed to surviveand and become, and you know,
and be invited to places andfestivals and included pretty
nicely on the strengths of beingthe Russian Jew.
When October 7 happened and thesubsequent doxing of the Jewish
(22:40):
creatives happened, it was fullon, but I was not shell-shocked
by it.
I suppose I anticipated that.
I just didn't anticipate theextent of it all.
Shocked by it.
I suppose I anticipated that.
I just didn't anticipate theextent of it.
I did not anticipate findingmyself one day online everywhere
(23:00):
my photo with a caption agenocidal Zionist or whatever
else was captioned.
That made me think of my fatherand mother.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Absolutely.
For listeners who aren't aware,the doxing was a result of Lee
being the founder or co-founderand coordinator of a WhatsApp
group for Jewish artists,creatives, academics, others
with a loose connection to thosesectors, who were brought
(23:26):
together in the weeks afterOctober 7th and ultimately the
group's messages andcommunications were leaked and
shared openly on social mediachannels.
And then the resulting doxingthat came from that, which we
can perhaps come back to againin a moment.
(23:49):
But, Leigh, just interested tohear the story around why you
decided to create the WhatsAppgroup in the first place.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, look, I created it on the 30th of October
thinking if I get 50 people,that's great, we can support
each other.
Within a few days it grew up to600-something.
At the time when I did thatgroup, we were all so
shell-shocked and also I thinkour community was still sort of
(24:17):
like really starting to justcoming to grips with this
immediate horrendous outburst ofantisemitism post-october 7,
before even, as we all know,before even Israel started
retaliating the silence, andthen, all you know, all that
ensued.
So I just felt very helpless.
I felt like I lost my tribe,which is my tribe of creative
(24:43):
people Academic I wasn't as muchin academy by then already
anyway, but yeah, the artisticsort of tribe.
I just felt I just saw my peers, my sort of all these writers
I've admired and liked andfriended, signing all these very
biased, uninformed letters, youknow.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Well, there was one petition that I seem to recall
that was released out of one ofthe literary journals of which
you may even have previouslybeen a contributor to certainly
would have had friends andcolleagues that would have and I
seem to recall this petitionagain was released well before
Israel began its militaryoperation in Gaza.
(25:25):
There was almost noacknowledgement of what Israelis
experienced on that day, thelevel of violence the brutality.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
There was no acknowledgement.
Sorry to interrupt you, but theinitial letter, which already
was signed by several hundredpeople, contained the sentence
if crimes were committed onOctober 7th.
It subsequently was changed,but we have the screenshots and
we know that sentence was there.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
And then there was an additional line or paragraph
that I still recall, which wasto the effect of these cannot be
taken without the context ofIsrael's occupation since 1948.
So it was essentially as ifIsrael, what do you expect?
You've been occupying thesepeople since 1948.
(26:16):
This is all justified.
That was the effect, and Ithink many of the people that
were on that group and I'massuming this is part of the
reason why you formed the groupwere just shocked to see the
long list of artists andcreatives and entertainers.
There were a number ofhigh-profile Australian
entertainers that signed thatstatement.
(26:37):
It certainly shocked and struckme as an incredibly
dehumanising public statementthat so many people in the
Australian arts and creativespaces were keen to attach
themselves to.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Daph, thank you because you described it so well
and much better than me.
That was exactly the letterthat prompted my action.
In fact, I remember how I foundout about it because my friend
messaged me who is I'm not goingto say the name he's a
non-Jewish historian who knewall the fallacies in that letter
.
You know there was also factualmistakes, like you know, saying
that the hospital, that Israelbombed it, that she didn't bomb
(27:15):
it, but anyway.
So ironically, I actually foundit from that particular person
and I remember sitting in thecar with the spring onions
sticking and smelling everywhereand sitting in complete despair
, reading that letter and thesignatures in my car and going.
It just went in my head, like Ijust said this sentence in my
head either I'm going to sinkinto depression now or I'm going
(27:38):
to do something.
So I went home, wrote thatemail to any Jewish writer I
knew at the time.
Later it expanded to allcreatives and academics as well
and said well, let's do a letter, let's do something.
And then I did this and Ithought, well, if I'm going to
organize the letter, you may aswell just do a whatsapp group
might be.
I've never even used whatsappbefore.
(27:58):
It was the first time Idownloaded on my phone.
I may as well just like do itthrough whatsapp.
It will be a bit easier togather signatures and write a
letter.
And then I thought, well, ifyou already have a whatsapp
group, maybe we can support eachother.
Because I was in such pain.
I was in such pain like,seriously I I've had tough
things happening in my life, butthat was one of the greatest
(28:22):
pains in that car those springonions seriously it really hurt.
So I just thought the groupwould be a great space for us to
process the pain and then toalso, if we want to do some
collective action, to do somecollective action.
But of course, if we just docollective action, it's lobbyism
.
We are lobbyists, we are doingsome terrible things, even
(28:44):
though there are WhatsApp groupsfor every cause possible.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I think what was so heartbreaking for many people
was that, as you described, thegroup's intent was support
focused, and yet the transcriptsof that group then got
downloaded, got leaked and thenpeople combed through 900 pages
(29:07):
of WhatsApp transcripts lookingfor evidence of wrongdoing, and
that can really shatter people'ssense of self, even people who
weren't in the group.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
And I think that perhaps the peak of it, tammy,
was the release of a sheet ofthe names and photos of various
members of the group, almostlike a kind of a hit list.
Yeah, here are the people thathave participated in this group.
Here are their names, here aretheir occupations, here are
their affiliations.
(29:38):
Lee, this must have taken youright back to Soviet-era Russia.
It must have felt like that'sexactly what I was thinking Some
form of.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
KGB shit.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, type of operation.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
And even to the extent that the conspiracy
theories around us.
My friends got phone calls frompeople saying is Lee working
for Mossad?
And one of my friends said,well, she's not fit enough.
So really, the anti-Zionistrhetoric and activists.
They're really rehashing somuch of what was going on in the
(30:16):
Soviet Union the same language,the same theories.
They're drawing all the age-oldconspiracies about the powerful
Jews as well.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Lee, I know that the group is still going and I know
that you're continuing to be asupport and a moderator and a
kind of facilitator of Jewishcreatives during this time,
which remains very volatile andanxiety provoking for a lot of
Jewish people here in Australiaand around the world.
So I guess the bright side onthis is that you've been able to
(30:50):
forge a community under verydifficult circumstances.
But what have you lost in thetime since October 7th?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
I've been a teacher of writing as well as writer in
Australia for a really long time, for probably I don't know
almost 20 years now, and I don'twant to sort of I don't mean to
sound like I'm, you know,blowing my own horn or whatever
the expression is in english,but I just want to give you the
contrast soon in terms of losinghow much for me.
(31:22):
So up until october 7, or eventhe dog thing I've been teaching
all around Australia constantly.
In fact, I was constantlythinking how can I reduce my
teaching so I can write more?
My classes are almost alwaysnot just book out, but also I
have waiting lists.
Because I'm passionate aboutteaching.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I think I just love it so much you're great, lee,
like I, going to give youpermission to blow your own horn
.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Sorry about that, I'm only saying no, I'm saying do
it because you're amazing.
That's very beautiful, but theonly reason I'm actually
mentioning because it's reallynot in my character to speak
like this of myself is onlybecause the contrast of what
happened after is so sharp.
So I get about maybe 25% ofteaching bookings to what I did
before October 7.
(32:10):
Leacher organizations, whom I'mnot going to name, but major
leacher organizations with whomI've had very strong, very close
association, mutual support,not just them supporting me,
Organizations where I served inmany different roles, would not
book me now.
So because I don't know why,maybe because I'm a genocidal
(32:31):
Zionist, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Can we talk, maybe, about what you've gained?
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Yes, thank you.
Of course I'm no longerprepared to, as I did before, to
minimize my Jewishness and myIsraelness as a writer, and I
know now that my publicationprospects are very uncertain
because of that.
Because up until now, everytime I would write a book or
even an essay, I would be andI'm ashamed to admit on your
(33:00):
podcast, I'm very ashamed toadmit I used to calculate how
far can I push writing aboutthat side of me before a
publisher will say to me, no,I'm not taking that, or a
reviewer will say somethingnegative.
So I've always used to kind oftry and find a balance.
I mean, I've always writtenabout my Jewish side, but I kind
(33:23):
of kept to the safe Jewishtopics, more you know.
So it was okay for me always towrite about how, I say,
rebelled against religion inwhich I was brought up that you
know.
But I wouldn't say discuss theways in which I'm attached to
Israel, I wouldn't critiqueIsrael.
So I wouldn't be sort of honestabout those parts of myself,
not in terms of writingsomething dishonest, but just I
(33:46):
wouldn't write, wouldn't fullyexplore my Jewishness.
Whereas now I feel like I haveto.
I will always write aboutwhat's urgent and that's what's
urgent for me to write about now.
So I definitely feel like Ilost a lot of potential
publishing prospects.
I definitely feel so much moreconnected to the Jewish
community in ways I've neverbeen before.
(34:08):
I feel as a writer that I kindof write now not just for my
life, as I've always done but Ihope it doesn't sound
pretentious, I don't mean it inthis way, but I feel like I'm
also writing for other peoplewho kind of relate to what I'm
going through in my communityand hopefully maybe some other
minorities not just Jewishminorities who maybe feel
(34:29):
silenced in some ways.
So when Tamar Paluch and twoother wonderful women from our
editorial committee, simone Wineand Romy Muszynski invited me
to co-editor them, this bookRuptured.
It was just so wonderfulbecause I kind of felt really
(34:49):
voiceless.
I felt like at the time and Istill feel like this to quite
large extent but everything thatI have to say about what it's
like to be Jewish now, today, isnot going to be published in
mainstream left-leaningpublications.
So it will be hard to reach forme audiences which I want to
reach or the kind of audienceswho I want to change their, the
kind of audiences who I want tochange their minds, although I
(35:11):
do try to do it through socialmedia.
But I just felt like that bookwas for me a really good way of
not succumbing to againdepression and anger and,
instead of giving voice to otherpeople and to myself, to say
what we have to say about how wefeel these days lee.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Why the decision to have the collection be purely
the voice of women?
I'm interested in that choiceand what it was about their
experiences that you felt neededto be collated into a single
edition so that's a very goodquestion.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
So I was invited into this project when it was
already performed as a projectof giving voices to women.
So I can't take credit for that, but it spoke to me.
It's not that I think men'svoices are not valid.
I think they're just as valid.
It's just that there was anaspect to what happened in
October 7 and the aftermath thatwas distinctly female in
(36:11):
several ways.
First of all, the horrendous,deliberate sexual violence has
impacted women so much.
I know it impacted me very muchin my intimacy.
I mean, it's hard not to think,not to have those thoughts,
those flashbacks, those thingsin my own private daily life and
I know that I'm not the onlyone who says that but my
(36:34):
sexuality definitely has beenimpacted by what happened on
October 7th and I'm always happyto talk about it because I
think we need to talk about it.
It wasn't just a far away thingthat happened to women, it's
also I mean, of course I'm notin any way comparing myself to
the real victims, but I thinkmany of us have felt our
(36:56):
relationship with sex has beenimpacted.
Then the betrayal of feminists.
You know the Me Too, the allthat you know, I don't need to
talk about it a lot.
We all know what I mean.
So the betrayal of feminism Imean, my writing has always had
a very strong feminist angle toit and so for me, to sort of, I
(37:17):
just don't feel what I belong infeminist spaces in ways I used
to belong in feministconversations.
I feel very betrayed by myso-called sisters.
And then another aspect of itwhat happened was that at least
I can only speak about australia.
I don't know how it's in othercountries, but in australia
there's so much grassroots,unpaid activism sprung since
(37:39):
october 7th in our communities,and it's predominantly, I would
say, women who give their unpaidtime and and effort.
I mean, even in our WhatsAppgroup there's a group of us who
are administrators.
We're all women, but there's somany men in the group, so this
is not a go at men.
It's just to say this is howthings are.
So these are the kind ofdistinct dimensions we wanted to
(38:02):
explore in this book as well.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
You have some pretty amazing contributors as well.
You have some pretty amazingcontributors including Deborah
Conway, carly Moore, gilbert,jemima Montag.
People are going to get angryat me if I leave their names out
.
Did I say Kerry Sackville,joanne Fedler?
Some really big names.
Clearly, there are somepatterns that emerge from all of
(38:27):
these essays shared griefs,feeling of isolation, of
disappointment.
I'm curious to know if therewere any contradictions or
general divides between people'sexperiences that surprised you
and the editorial team.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
I was actually surprised in how many
similarities there were betweenthe essays.
Our biggest challenge, mychallenge, was actually, I think
, in some ways to make theessays as distinct and possible,
and I hope we succeeded.
I hope so, even though westrived, and indeed included
women from lots of differentoccupations and age groups and
(39:08):
all sorts of you know differentidentities and demographics and
you know experiences.
The essence really, to me thatit's almost like a conversation.
They're always like talking toeach other, and one of the
biggest echoing themes fromthrough this was silence.
There's so much silence in thisessay, different types of
silences, the silences betweenfriends, the silence of um in
(39:34):
war places, that self-silence,silencing of a lot of people.
I mean, for example, in heressay, dina kaplan, the actress
and the singer.
In her and then in her essayshe writes that when I first
approached her and asked her tocontribute an essay, she said no
(39:55):
, she was too scared.
When the first hostages werereleased, she decided well, can
I swear on the podcast?
No, yes, fuck it, I'm going towrite the essay, doesn't matter
that I was bullied and terribly.
You know she was really abusedonline.
She writes about that and shewrote her wonderful essay then
(40:16):
for us.
So yeah, so silence has been ahuge thing between these essays.
You asked me about thedifferences, but it's the
similarities that strike me.
I mean the specifics always arevery different and that's
interesting too.
It's interesting what everybodychose to focus on.
Some essays focus more onresilience.
Some essays are darker, and I'mglad they're darker.
(40:39):
I don't think we need toresolve everything, because
nothing is, sadly, resolved yet.
Even the war hasn't ended yet.
But another sort of recurringmotif across so many races was,
as we say in Himu Hinani, here IAm.
This sort of refrain of justthe fact of our existence at the
(41:01):
moment is political andpowerful.
The fact that we exist.
I mean, so many people are outthere wanting to kill us or
whatever do to us, and we'restill here.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
You mentioned before that you were concerned about
publishing prospects.
The book was published by.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
The Jewish Library of Australia, we were very
pleasantly surprised with twomajor Australian book
distributors offered us theirservices and one of them took us
on.
So we didn't expect it and wealso did not expect to get into
any bookshops.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
That was going to be my next question.
Is the book available inbookshops?
Speaker 3 (41:39):
This is a very good question, so, as we're sort of
discussing it, the bookdistribution is in a very strong
, energetic process.
So a lot of bookshops inAustralia became gatekeepers for
Jewish authors and Jewishthemes, and I'm not afraid to
say that.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Neither am I.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
So we have some wonderful, wonderful friends,
like, of course, the AvenueBookshops in Melbourne, one of
them.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Gertrude Nellis in Sydney.
Oh my.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
God, yes, the Little Bird in Brazil, but to my great
surprise so far.
Maybe ask me in a few monthsI'll say something else, but so
far quite a few bookshops are,yeah, ordered copies, and not
just the bookshops I expected.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
You have had an extraordinary life, an
extraordinary journey from asmall town in Siberia, a little
Jewish girl with, as you saidearlier, a broken heart, an
Israeli party girl, AustralianJewish mother, a successful
writer and writing teacher, whothen encountered a sort of
(42:49):
shocking level of intoleranceand backlash and professional
isolation.
I'm wondering what you'velearned and how you've grown
personally through this time.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
I think I'm still growing through that, but I'm
just learning more to be myselfin life and on the page, my
authentic self.
I'm learning to stop panderingto other people's levels of
tolerance.
I'm also learning slowly thatthere are lots of great people
(43:24):
also in the literary scene.
They're just quiet people.
Also in the literary scene.
They're just quiet.
So I've actually been again inthe last half a year, probably
again asked more and more toteach, but not for those big
literature organizations.
It's the good people who arequiet and less formal and don't
get government funding.
Who's been actually quietlysupporting people like myself.
(43:47):
I love Jewish writers, so I'mlearning that there are good
people there that are just notnecessarily in power in the
literary circles.
But it's also terrifying if mynon-Jewish friendships almost
completely all of them survivedand intact.
But there are some things weavoid.
So in the essay In Rapture, inmy own essay, I really wrote
(44:08):
things as they are and I knowthat a lot of my non-Jewish
friends are beautifully going tosupport me and come to the book
launches that we have and getthe book.
Some already ordered the book,but I don't know what will
happen after they read my essaybecause most of them are writers
and of course I don't sayanything bad about my friends
(44:29):
there because I love my friendsand I know the support in every
way they were capable of.
But I do say quite big thingsabout the literary community in
Australia.
So I just kind of bracingmyself to see will I have some
open and difficult conversationswith my friends after they get
in the book and what will happennext.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, you strike me as an incredibly brave and
courageous person, leigh, andsomeone who's very resilient,
even if they read it and theydon't like what they read.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I think Tam and I both know that you'll be okay,
thank you and the book again iscalled Ruptured Jewish Women in
Australia Reflect on Lifepost-October 7, edited by you,
our special guests Lee Kaufmanand Tamara Paluch, available
online and in any good not justgood exceptional bookstore.
(45:23):
Thank you so much for joiningus today, lee.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Thank you very much, Vok you very much for such a
rich conversation that was leekaufman, co-editor of ruptured.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
We'll put those details in the show notes for
today's episode, but that's itfor this week.
You've been listening to ashame, to admit with me dash
lawrence and me tammy suss.
This episode was mixed andedited by Nick King, with theme
music by Donovan Jenks.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's even moreenjoyable than a shot of vodka
in your cup of tea.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
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