June 24, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of Ashamed to Admit (recorded prior to war breaking out between Israel and Iran) Tami and Dash unpack Lee Kofman’s essay about the phenomenon of Jews being perceived as white; the complexity, nuance and discomfort. Inspired by Tom Ben David’s piece for TJI, Dash reflects on the emotional gymnastics of holding two truths at once, while Tami recounts her surreal stay at Australia’s only kosher hotel. From Judea to St Kilda East, this conversation is full of tension, honesty and some much-needed laughter.
Articles mentioned in today’s episode:
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/this-and-this-holding-contradictory-truths
https://thejewishindependent.com.au/am-i-white-im-not-sure
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Subscribe to The Jewish Independent's bi-weekly newsletter: jewishindependent.com.au
Tami and Dash on Instagram: tami_sussman_bits and dashiel_and_pascoe
X: TJI_au
YouTube: thejewishindependentAU
Facebook: TheJewishIndependentAU
Instagram: thejewishindependent
LinkedIn: the-jewish-independent
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Tammy here.
Today you'll hear an episodewhich Dash and I recorded a few
weeks ago, before the warbetween Israel and Iran broke
out, which is why there's nomention of that.
There's also no mention of theceasefire which was announced on
Tuesday morning Australia time.
So wherever you're listeningfrom today, we hope that this
(00:23):
episode makes you feel connectedto your Jewish friends or
family, and we hope it providesyou with some respite from
war-related content.
It's still pretty Jew-y, though.
You should know that.
Please continue to take care ofyourselves.
We'll be back to regularprogramming next week and enjoy
(00:59):
this episode, but struggling tokeep up with the news cycle.
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in this podcast series, yourthird cousin, tammy Sussman, and
I call on experts and eachother to address all the
ignorant questions that youmight be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit.
Hello everyone.
I'm Dashiel Lawrence, executiveDirector at the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
And I'm former guest of Room 7 in Australia's only
kosher lodging, KimberleyGardens Hotel in St Kilda, East
Melbourne, Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
How was the hospitality at Australia's only
kosher lodging, Tammy?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Do you reckon Kimberley Gardens is Australia's
only kosher hotel?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'd say so.
I certainly aren't aware of anyothers in Melbourne, but if
they are, they should use it asa part of their marketing,
because it's a great hook.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Because the massive menorah on all their marketing
material isn't enough.
I reckon it would have to be,because if there was one in
Sydney I'd know about it, and Ican't imagine that the other
states and territories inAustralia who have smaller
Jewish populations would haveone.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
No, no, you're definitely not going to find one
in Hobart, or even Brisbane orAdelaide, for that matter.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
If there are any listeners out there who are a
bit salty with us becausethey're like no wait, I'm in
Darwin and I own a kosher hoteland we just don't know about it,
please reach out.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
What makes it a kosher lodging?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
It's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I'm probably asking the wrong person, aren't I?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
What makes it a kosher lodging?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
You not exactly Kashrut Authority?
Are you Tammy Sussman?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I'm not.
I'm going to assume that maybeit's got to do with those water
urns that they have on Shabbat,so that guests don't have to
boil water if they want tea.
Mm-hmm.
Yep mm-hmm yeah, kimberlygardens hotel in st kilda, east
melbourne not sponsors of thisshow, probably won't be after I
(03:31):
talk a little bit more about myexperience there you didn't take
the um complimentary minishampoo and conditions, did you?
they didn't have them, which isthe most un-Jewish thing ever.
There was none of that.
They had everything in soapdispensers and they had the
(03:52):
shampoo and conditioner in one.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I cop that when I come up and visit you in Sydney,
tammy, I stay at anestablishment that has the soap
in one of those little tightlypacked containers bolted onto
the wall for fear that someone'sgoing to rip them off.
Yeah, so it's just the wayyou've got to travel.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
No Dash, you don't have hair as a Jew.
With messy, wavy hair.
You can't survive on shampooand conditioner mixed together.
It's not going to cut it.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like the all-in-one, justthe one big mixture that you've
just got to squirt out.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
No, that's not good.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, exactly, and look, I understand that you
couldn't come through with apink Hummer as requested, and I
don't want to seem ungrateful.
I do appreciate the hospitalityat Kimberley Gardens Kosher
Hotel, St Kilda, East Melbourne.
I'm just saying there were afew discrepancies between their
(04:55):
website and what I actually got.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So when I went on their website, I noticed that
there was wine, kosher wine, andtwo glasses oh that would have
been nice.
Yep, that would have beenlovely and I didn't receive that
.
And I also saw that there weresome bathrobes folded up quite
(05:19):
nicely on the king-size bed.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Didn't see a bathrobe inside.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Not even in the-.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
In the wardrobe In the wardrobe?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
yeah, no, you better believe.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I went through that wardrobe.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
No little flip-flops.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
There were flip-flops .
Speaker 2 (05:35):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
That's good.
What am I supposed to use themfor if I don't have a robe?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Okay, the website did show a sparkling clean pool and
spa.
I was quite excited to have alittle bit of a dip prior to my
Limud session.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Uh-oh.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
The pool was covered in pool noodles.
Oh, you know what that meanswhen a pool is covered in pool
noodles.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
No, what does it mean ?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It means that a few families have been in there.
Oh, you don't want to get intoa pool after a few families have
been in there.
There was a film of froth ontop of the spa.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, it's a spa.
What do you expect?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Did you listen to my episode with Shoshana Gottlieb?
While you were away, we had awhole discussion about spa baths
and the things that can live inthere.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, but there's going to be froth at the start,
middle and the end.
Look, I wouldn't be dippinginto any spa baths.
I don't like spas, so don't betoo harsh on Australia's only
kosher lodging with regard tothe spa bath, Tammy, because I
think those that venture intothe spa they're only asking for
trouble.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, victim blaming, it's your own fault.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, well, you know, just think twice before you
step into any spa.
Okay, yeah, go on.
What else didn't meet yourexpectations?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So I was chatting to Shoshana Gottlieb, former
fill-in co-host of this show,Jewish Memes Only, and Shoshana
said that she was joking withher fiancé that it couldn't
possibly be a kosher hotelbecause there aren't soda
streams in every room.
My new girlfriend did come downto Melbourne with me.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
It was an eye-opening experience for her.
It was her first foray intoJewish events.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Wow, what a foray, what a place to introduce her to
.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Just throw her right into the deep end of the pool at
Kimberley Gardens Hotel.
Just a reminder to ourlisteners Dash isn't Jewish.
I constantly have to remindthem because it's assumed.
Because you're the executivedirector at the Jewish
Independent and you did a PhD inbeing Jew.
That was the official title,wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
No, it was another title, but let's go with that
one for simplicity's sake.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Being Jew, so Dash.
When you first started datingSusie, what was the first Jewish
thing that she brought you to?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I think it was a Yom Kippur service.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Seriously.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No, it was Erev Yom Kippur.
It wasn't the full yom kippurservice, seriously, no, it was
era of yom kippur it wasn't thefull yom kippur service, it was
era of yeah, era of.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yom kippur is in like just the meal that you have
before you fast, or did she takeyou to a synagogue?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
no, is she talking to a synagogue?
We went to the era of yomkippur.
This the era of service,whatever that's called.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Colney.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Dre.
Thank you, I'm sorry, is itWell?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'd be so proud of myself if that's actually right.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I think isn't Colney Dre the oh no.
No, you're right.
Yes, it is Sorry.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm so proud of myself, all right.
Well, our situation is a littlebit different, because you had
done a PhD in being Jew beforeyou met Susie, right, and you
had Jewish friends andcolleagues, and yeah.
So my girlfriend hadn't reallyever spent time with a Jewish
person before she met me.
(09:21):
So all my friends in Melbourneand in Sydney were having such a
laugh about the fact that thefirst Jewish event that she was
attending was not, like you know, something fun like Sheer
Madness with Jewish music or,you know, shabbat dinner with
(09:43):
friends and family.
It was limut.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Session after session , lecture after lecture about
Jewish identity and Torah andTalmud anti-Semitism.
I do have to say, though, I wasquite impressed that when I led
her to Room 7 at the KimberleyGardens Hotel, st Kilda East,
(10:08):
she did clock that seven is avery meaningful number in
Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
She'd done a bit of background reading.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So it must be a highly sought-after room at the
Kimberley Gardens Hotel, StKilda East.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It is because it's the most un-kosher room in the
Kimberley Gardens Hotel, stKilda East.
It is because it's the mostunkosher room in the Kimberley
Gardens Hotel, st Kilda East.
That's all I'm going to sayabout that.
I'll leave the rest to yourimagination.
Dash, I'd like to thank you foryour hospitality while I was
down in Melbourne.
It was really lovely to see youin the flesh, as opposed to
(10:46):
behind a screen where we seeeach other every week.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Thank you so much for the ride on Saturday night to
Dawn and Mabel Wine Bar in StKilda.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yes, a very big hello , and thank you to Gull, who is
a shame to admit listener.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
It was a real novel experience riding in the back
seat of your car.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You fit in though, didn't you?
You made it work.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
In the booster seat.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Possibly illegal.
But hey, we had no other way ofgetting you there in the
pouring rain.
So, it's true, in thefive-year-old's booster seat you
went.
Some would say that's where youbelong.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Some would say that's where I belong in the booster
seat of the back seat of a car.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Some would say I wouldn't say that, but some
might Still getting over thefact the fact, tammy, that you
said no to my suggestion abouthaving a little mid-afternoon
tour of St Kilda.
I'd love to conclude at thelast remaining Jewish cake shop
(11:58):
on Ackland Street.
There are still a few cakeshops there, but none as far as
I'm aware are still owned andusing traditional Jewish cakes
made by a Jewish family, like isthe case at Monarch Cake Shop,
which is one of my favourites inMelbourne, still using, I think
, the 120-year-old plus Polishrecipe for cheesecake.
(12:23):
Aw, you didn't want it.
You didn't want to go and havea delicious slice of Polish
cheesecake or babka or anynumber of other delicious treats
.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I didn't want to be bloated and have diarrhoea so
close to our live recording of AShame to Admit.
And here's the thing I don'tlike going to cafes or
restaurants if I know thatthere's nothing that I can eat
or drink.
I just feel so awkward sittingthere.
(12:57):
So you would have had a cakeand would you have had coffee in
the afternoon.
Yep, really Yep.
I can't have coffee after 12pm.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Okay, well, I've had a cake and late afternoon coffee
there on many occasions, and Iwas looking forward to doing
that with you and your newgirlfriend Tammy, but it wasn't
to be.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
She wouldn't have had the cake, it just would have
been the two of us sitting therewatching you have coffee.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Eating my cake.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
You would have been comfortable with that.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Sure your loss, not mine.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Next time.
I also didn't want to go toMonarch Cake Shop because it was
raining and I wanted to besomewhere with better airflow
because you had a cold.
You got to see a different sideof me.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
You mean your side that can't handle the remote
possibility or risk of beingcontaminated and coming down
with a cold.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yes, my extremely neurotic side.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I sort of knew that you were on the neurotic
spectrum, but didn't realisejust how much that manifested
itself with regard to colds.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Especially in winter and especially as someone who is
immunocompromised.
So I've arrived back in Sydneywith sinusitis.
So thank you so much for.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Oh, you think I gave you a cold.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It could have been you.
We'll never know, Dash.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Could have been any number of those Melbourne yidden
that you were hugging andkissing and fraternising with
while you were in our fair city.
So don't lay the blame on me,defensive much.
I just want to say thank you somuch to all of the lovely
(14:51):
Ashamed to Admit listeners thatcame up to us over the course of
the week and introducedthemselves, said how much they
love listening to the show andhow it is not to be missed each
week on their downloads.
It was so nice to meet you alland to see some real-life fans
in the flesh.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So Dash, today we're having a little bit of a break
from interviewing people,because we've just been having
interview after interview, andat Limord we interviewed two
rabbis.
Today we're going back to thebeginning, how this podcast
started, which was just you andme in a studio together,
bringing each other questionsabout Jewishness, the Jewish
(15:34):
experience, Israel,anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
The genesis of the show was that you wanted me to
help translate some of the news,some of the things happening
today in Israel and around theJewish world, and you wanted to
be freed of your shame about notknowing those things.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Well, I think we eventually realised that you
know one.
I actually don't know as muchas you think I do.
I'm also learning as we goalong the way.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, the idea was that you would also bring me
questions about the Jewishexperience that you were ashamed
, that you didn't know about.
But turns out you just didn'twant to be vulnerable and admit
to not knowing things, so thatmade that really hard.
Today we'll try and do that.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
We can try and make up for that today.
Tammy, I certainly don'tanticipate I'm alone in this
(16:49):
fairly careful about the amountof news that I am reading and
processing in recent months,particularly with regard to
Israel's ongoing war and thetoll that it is having both on
(17:10):
the people of Gaza and also onIsraelis as well, and not to
mention the sort of ongoinguncertainty about the hostages
and whether they will ever bereturned home.
Look, it's been a verychallenging couple of years for
anyone who is Jewish, has aclose relationship with Israel,
and as well for those of us whowork in Jewish organizations,
(17:35):
for those who work in mediaoutlets that are covering these
sorts of events and goings on.
You get to a point.
you know it can get overwhelmingand it can really weigh on you,
and so I you know, I'mcontinuing to read, listen,
(17:57):
engage, but not to probably thelevel that I have been that also
it goes with what's going on inthe united states as well.
The way I've really had to sortof step back in the last few
months from my consumption of uspolitics and just the total
mess that is being made by theTrump administration.
(18:17):
I've just you know, one has tobe selective about what they
listen to, and so yeah.
So as a result, tammy, I can'tcome to this conversation ready
to decode and break down thelatest goings on in Israel.
I'm aware that the Australiangovernment has just announced
(18:40):
sanctions against two Israeliministers and also the
cancellation of a visa forvisiting Israeli speaker and
online identity.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I saw that because they consider him a threat to
Australia's safety or that hissafety would be threatened.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I don't feel that there's really a lot of value in
having me reflect on them.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
In having our commentary.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
No, adding our commentary to it.
I don't.
There is plenty of commentaryout there on our website on the
Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Some analysis and some wraps up there this week
and what I do want to talk about, if you want to discuss.
I do articles that are on ourwebsite that have really
resonated with me.
We have a Look.
It's not perfect, there aresome flaws with it, but the
overall thrust of the articlereally resonated with me.
(19:38):
It's called this and thisHolding Contradictory Truths by
Israeli Tom Ben-David.
This article I reallyappreciated last week.
He essentially points out thatthere are seemingly many
contradictory truths aboutIsrael's war with Hamas and
(20:01):
about the Israeli-Palestinianconflicts more generally.
And yet too often the impulseon behalf of Israel's attackers
and also its advocates and itssupporters is to reduce things
into binaries, reduce thingsinto the black and white.
You know the good and the evil,that either Israel can do no
(20:25):
right or Israel can do no wrong,depending on which side you
fall and that it's impossible tohold those two ideas at once.
People are increasingly unableto hold competing truths at once
, and yet, as this articleexplains at the very beginning,
judaism has a long tradition ofbeing open to and accepting
(20:48):
what's called cognitivedissonance.
Do you know what cognitivedissonance is?
Tammy call cognitive dissonance.
Do you know what?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
cognitive dissonance is Tammy.
I've heard it being said sooften in my WhatsApp groups,
usually with people saying thecognitive dissonance it's just
shocking, like there's usuallynegative undertones when talking
about cognitive dissonancePotentially so.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
It's certainly something that has come up and
I've heard it time and timeagain since October 7th.
So it was a term developed, Iunderstand, by an American
Jewish psychologist, leonFestinger, in 1957.
This concept in relation to themental discomfort that human
(21:36):
beings feel when they holdcontradictory beliefs, values or
attitudes at the same time, orwhen their attitudes don't align
with their beliefs, and so heposited that this psychological
tension creates an unpleasantfeeling that motivates you to
reduce that inconsistency.
And some of the ways thatyou'll typically do that
(21:59):
changing one of thoseconflicting beliefs or attitudes
, adding new beliefs thatjustify the inconsistency, this
one really in relation to theconflict we're talking about
here, seeking information thatsupports one side while avoiding
contradictory evidence.
I think we see a hell of a lotof that these days, where people
(22:24):
just cannot accept thecognitive dissonance, block out
the contradictory evidence and,you know, rally in as much
information as they can just tosupport their one-sided take on
the conflicts.
Clearly, as the author in thisarticle points out, in the
context of Israel's Hamas war,there are many truths that can
(22:47):
exist all at once, just to givelisteners a sense of Ben David's
voice and the tone of thearticle Ben David writes.
In the context of theIsrael-Hamas war, there are many
truths that exist all at once.
The humanitarian situation inGaza is bad and is deteriorating
(23:08):
rapidly, and people, many ofthem innocent people, are
suffering.
And under international law,israel is not obliged to provide
humanitarian aid to Gaza.
And Israel should provide aiddespite having no obligation,
and humanitarian organizationsare vehemently opposed to Israel
(23:28):
being involved in aiddistribution.
And much of the aid enteringGaza is being looted by Hamas
and wouldn't make it to thecivilians who actually need it.
And providing more aid wouldlower its prices and allow more
aid to get to civilians.
And supplying more aid wouldenrich and empower Hamas and
merchant warlords in Gaza,enabling to sustain the war for
(23:50):
longer.
And the hostages must come home.
And Hamas won't release thehostages without pressure on
Gaza and continued fighting willfurther endanger the lives of
the hostages and Netanyahu'streatment of the hostage
families is callous andinexcusable.
And many of those outraged byNetanyahu don't care about the
(24:12):
hostages, and the people in Gazaare still suffering.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Oh, powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You get the flavour of this article.
He really is trying to hold thevery contradictory or
paradoxical elements of theconflicts and trying to hold the
two together and point to whatare facts.
There will be some people whowill contest some of those
statements, for sure, but thereare certainly things all the way
(24:44):
through in there that youcannot contest.
It was really welcome to readthis article because it's the
way I, and I know there arepeople out there that feel that
this conflict is all too oftenreduced down to black and whites
, to binaries, and I think thereare also, you know, thinking in
(25:08):
a Jewish community context.
I think there are some thatbelieve that, acknowledging the
suffering that Palestinians arecurrently experiencing, that
Gazans are currentlyexperiencing the depths of the
humanitarian situation, thatthat is somehow playing into
Israel's enemies and it'sundermining its cause.
(25:30):
And I just think that that'syou know, that's it's
undermining its cause and I justthink that that's you know,
that's it doesn't.
it just actually makes you humanthat you can simultaneously
believe that Israel has a rightto defend itself and that there
are limits to what that means,and the humanitarian situation
(25:52):
in Gaza is unacceptable.
And yeah, I thought thisarticle, as I said, it's not
perfect, there are flaws in it,there are things that you could
and I'm sure people have pickedout that don't quite work, but
ultimately the general essenceof what he is trying to say
resonates for me and I think forothers as well.
(26:12):
I've noticed that there was alot of positive feedback on our
social media channels from someof our followers.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Thanks for bringing that.
I think, the concept of sayingand instead of but, but is
really helpful in context thanjust this conflict in the Middle
East.
Taking a leaf out of that book,I agree with everything you're
saying and I know that there's aschool of thought out there,
(26:43):
represented by a lot of myJewish friends' dads, who
believe that there are enoughpeople, enough people
criticizing Israel, that theJewish people need to not give
any quote free kicks to thosehaters and therefore it's a
(27:05):
responsibility to balance outall the criticism with advocacy.
So I'm not saying I necessarilyagree with them.
I'm saying this is I'm justadding an and to that argument.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I hear that.
I don't agree with it.
I don't think this is azero-sum game.
I don't think that youracknowledgement of the suffering
of Gazans means that thatproduces or you know is a point
lost to Israel.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Or a threat to Israel .
Speaker 2 (27:41):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I can accept that others see it differently and
that they feel that there needsto be some evening of the ledger
or that it is theresponsibility of Jewish people
to be in solidarity with Israelduring this time of war.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yes, okay, well, listeners can read that article
on the Jewish Independencewebsite.
We'll leave a link in the shownotes.
Today, dash, I am bringing anarticle to the table written by
(28:26):
Lee Kaufman, who is anincredible Melbourne-based
author and editor of eight booksin Hebrew and in English.
She's also a writing teacherand mentor.
Earlier this month, lee Kaufmanwrote a piece called Am I White
(28:48):
?
I'm Not Sure.
Byline, whether Jews are whitehas little to do with our bodies
and everything to do with theideas society projects onto us,
and this piece really resonatedwith me because it's an idea
that's been on my mind for along time, but especially since
(29:10):
October 7 and particularly sinceour conversation with Ben M
Freeman, which was all aboutJewish indigeneity, which was a
brilliant episode.
We had so much great feedbackon that.
So if you're a new listener tothis podcast, I highly recommend
going back and listening to ourinterview with Ben M Freeman.
(29:34):
So the main idea put forward byLee Kaufman is really an
exploration of the complexshifting relationships between
Ashkenazi Jews, specifically,and whiteness, especially in the
Australian context post-October7.
And what I gathered from thatis that Lee was arguing that
(29:57):
Jews are often considered whitewhen it suits others, but we
remain perpetual outsiders.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
So, Tammy, interested in your experience and how what
Lee raises in the article hasplayed out for you in your life
growing up, did you feel thatwhite as a young Jewish woman?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
It's so funny you ask that, and I didn't even plan to
talk about this, it's just thatthis memory just popped up.
I don't know at what agechildren start to think about
the color of their skin and howthat plays into social status or
whatever, but I remember beingin year six, so I was 11 years
(30:45):
old, and I wanted to get atalent agent because I wanted to
start being in ads or home andaway.
That was the dream at that age.
And I went to see a potentialrepresentative and she asked me
where I was born and I saidAustralia.
And she asked me my nationalityand I said Australian and she
(31:06):
said but you're Jewish?
And I said yeah, but that's myreligion.
At the time I went to a modernorthodox school and I did
identify as being Jewish as areligion, and she insisted that
that was my nationality and Ididn't get it.
All my life I've always beenasked where are you from?
(31:29):
And I've said Australia andthey've said yeah, but where are
you really from?
And then at some point I'd say,okay, well, my grandparents
were from Eastern Europe,they're Polish, so I'm Polish.
And then I'd have people saybut you don't look Polish Like.
Where is your fair hair andyour blue eyes, and I was like I
(31:50):
don't understand what is goingon.
And it wasn't until much laterin life that I realized that
Ashkenazi Sephardi Mizrahi,ashkenazi Sephardi Mizrahi there
(32:14):
is a Jewish look and thatsomehow that is linked to
indigeneity to the land that iscurrently referred to as Israel,
palestine.
So I've never identified aswhite, and certainly when we had
Holocaust education, themessage was pretty clear that we
weren't white enough.
So that's why it's beenparticularly cutting when I hear
(32:38):
people criticising Israel referto Jews as white colonizers,
because it's like I've neverbeen white enough for you, but
now, at this point in history,because it suits you, I'm
(32:58):
suddenly white.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
And so.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think that part of Lee's article really really rang
true for me.
In her article, lee grappleswith how Ashkenazi Jews are
racially socially perceived inAustralia, something else that
she said I'm pulling this as aquote that they, the people
(33:22):
projecting whiteness onto Jews.
They argue that whiteness isnot biology but a social
construct that offersinvisibility and privilege, and
that's something that Ipersonally, tammy, have never
fully enjoyed.
There's also this idea ofnormative whiteness and passing.
(33:45):
So Lee Kaufman notes that insome ways she passes as white,
but only until she startsspeaking and her Russian,
israeli accent betrays heridentity.
Now I have what many peoplewould describe as an Australian
accent, but my accent oftenbetrays me because, also
(34:07):
throughout my entire life, I'vealways been asked what's your
accent and I've said it's anAustralian accent, and they've
said, no, it's not, and I'vesaid, well, I don't know, is it
maybe a little bit British?
A few years ago someone said tome you have a Jewish accent,
(34:28):
and I think what they meantbecause I am from Sydney and
grew up not living but going toschool and hanging around with
people in the deep East is maybeI have an accent that has some
South African influence, someRussian influence, that maybe
there's some intonation that's alittle bit Jewish.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, but it doesn't mean that should be a signifier
for everyone to assumeeverything about that person's
life and their identity.
And that's what you're saying,right?
You're saying that it justflattens you all into one
homogenous group.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Exactly.
That comes up again when Leewrites about the fact that this
assumed white privilege isweaponized.
So Jews are often excluded fromdiversity programs or denied
social empathy because they areassumed to be white.
And I would add so this is me,tammy, speaking.
(35:31):
I would add that they're alsoassumed to be wealthy, which is
a topic that you and I havedebunked on this podcast in
Season 1, so I encourage ourlisteners to go back and listen
to that episode as well.
Lee writes in our multiculturalsociety, to designate Jews as
(35:52):
white is actually yet anotherway to marginalise us, and this
paradoxical narrative of Jewishwhite privilege goes on strong
because the collective storyshines brighter by outsourcing
to us whatever Australia doesn'twant to own oppression, greed
(36:15):
and now alleged genocide Prettypowerful shit.
Before I wrap up this bit Dash,I want to say that I really
appreciated that Lee Kaufmanacknowledged the Jews who were
not born Jewish as well, becausethey're quite often left out of
(36:36):
this narrative.
So she addresses the fact that,genetically, all Jews are a
distinct group that originatedfrom the Middle East.
Ashkenazim spent the lastmillennia in Europe and, while
there has been some mixing withlocal populations, their genetic
makeup remains different,resembling other Jews as well as
(36:57):
Arabic North Africanpopulations, far more than their
European neighbors.
But how important is this?
She writes not all peopleidentifying as Jewish are
genetically such.
I think Ben M Freeman and myfriends who've converted or who
(37:17):
are in the process of conversionwould be pleased to read that
too.
She says more so, when we talkabout whiteness we don't really
talk about biology, becausewhiteness has always been a
multifaceted, fluid, contestedsocial construct.
You might even say, dash, thatthis topic is tendentious.
(37:41):
Oh, it's unbalanced.
No, it's not.
It's not tendentious, it'scontentious.
I'll leave a link in the shownotes to this article as well.
I just want to say that LeeKaufman gives the best
exclamation mark.
At the end of her piece, shesaid she still hasn't found the
right words to describe herself.
(38:01):
But there are three things shefeels certain about.
But there are three things shefeels certain about.
One, jews are a small minority,always marked as other.
Two, she says she'd never callherself white.
And three, it is not up tonon-Jewish people to say who I
am, and I couldn't have said itbetter myself.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, this has been fun, Tammy.
I've enjoyed this opportunityjust to chat you, and I Chew the
fat.
We'll be back again nextTuesday, of course, with another
episode of A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me, TammySussman.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (38:45):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's nearly asenjoyable as a spa bath in Room
7 at Australia's only kosherhotel.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Thank you.
Hey everyone, it's Tammy here.
Today you'll hear an episodewhich Dash and I recorded a few
weeks ago, before the warbetween Israel and Iran broke
out, which is why there's nomention of that.
There's also no mention of theceasefire which was announced on
Tuesday morning Australia time.
So wherever you're listeningfrom today, we hope that this
(00:23):
episode makes you feel connectedto your Jewish friends or
family, and we hope it providesyou with some respite from
war-related content.
It's still pretty Jew-y, though.
You should know that.
Please continue to take care ofyourselves.
We'll be back to regularprogramming next week and enjoy
(00:59):
this episode, but struggling tokeep up with the news cycle.
If you answered yes, thenyou've come to the right place.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I'm Dash Lawrence from the Jewish Independent and
in this podcast series, yourthird cousin, tammy Sussman, and
I call on experts and eachother to address all the
ignorant questions that youmight be too ashamed to ask.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Join us as we have a go at cutting through some
seriously chewy and dewy topics.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Welcome to the Jewish Independent Podcast.
Ashamed to Admit.
Hello everyone.
I'm Dashiel Lawrence, executiveDirector at the Jewish
Independent.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
And I'm former guest of Room 7 in Australia's only
kosher lodging, KimberleyGardens Hotel in St Kilda, East
Melbourne, Tammy Sussman.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
How was the hospitality at Australia's only
kosher lodging, Tammy?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Do you reckon Kimberley Gardens is Australia's
only kosher hotel?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'd say so.
I certainly aren't aware of anyothers in Melbourne, but if
they are, they should use it asa part of their marketing,
because it's a great hook.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Because the massive menorah on all their marketing
material isn't enough.
I reckon it would have to be,because if there was one in
Sydney I'd know about it, and Ican't imagine that the other
states and territories inAustralia who have smaller
Jewish populations would haveone.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
No, no, you're definitely not going to find one
in Hobart, or even Brisbane orAdelaide, for that matter.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
If there are any listeners out there who are a
bit salty with us becausethey're like no wait, I'm in
Darwin and I own a kosher hoteland we just don't know about it,
please reach out.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
What makes it a kosher lodging?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
It's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I'm probably asking the wrong person, aren't I?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
What makes it a kosher lodging?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
You not exactly Kashrut Authority?
Are you Tammy Sussman?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I'm not.
I'm going to assume that maybeit's got to do with those water
urns that they have on Shabbat,so that guests don't have to
boil water if they want tea.
Mm-hmm.
Yep mm-hmm yeah, kimberlygardens hotel in st kilda, east
melbourne not sponsors of thisshow, probably won't be after I
(03:31):
talk a little bit more about myexperience there you didn't take
the um complimentary minishampoo and conditions, did you?
they didn't have them, which isthe most un-Jewish thing ever.
There was none of that.
They had everything in soapdispensers and they had the
(03:52):
shampoo and conditioner in one.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I cop that when I come up and visit you in Sydney,
tammy, I stay at anestablishment that has the soap
in one of those little tightlypacked containers bolted onto
the wall for fear that someone'sgoing to rip them off.
Yeah, so it's just the wayyou've got to travel.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
No Dash, you don't have hair as a Jew.
With messy, wavy hair.
You can't survive on shampooand conditioner mixed together.
It's not going to cut it.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's like the all-in-one, justthe one big mixture that you've
just got to squirt out.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
No, that's not good.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, exactly, and look, I understand that you
couldn't come through with apink Hummer as requested, and I
don't want to seem ungrateful.
I do appreciate the hospitalityat Kimberley Gardens Kosher
Hotel, St Kilda, East Melbourne.
I'm just saying there were afew discrepancies between their
(04:55):
website and what I actually got.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So when I went on their website, I noticed that
there was wine, kosher wine, andtwo glasses oh that would have
been nice.
Yep, that would have beenlovely and I didn't receive that
.
And I also saw that there weresome bathrobes folded up quite
(05:19):
nicely on the king-size bed.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Didn't see a bathrobe inside.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Not even in the-.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
In the wardrobe In the wardrobe?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
yeah, no, you better believe.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I went through that wardrobe.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
No little flip-flops.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
There were flip-flops .
Speaker 2 (05:35):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
That's good.
What am I supposed to use themfor if I don't have a robe?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It's true.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Okay, the website did show a sparkling clean pool and
spa.
I was quite excited to have alittle bit of a dip prior to my
Limud session.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Uh-oh.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
The pool was covered in pool noodles.
Oh, you know what that meanswhen a pool is covered in pool
noodles.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
No, what does it mean ?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It means that a few families have been in there.
Oh, you don't want to get intoa pool after a few families have
been in there.
There was a film of froth ontop of the spa.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, it's a spa.
What do you expect?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Did you listen to my episode with Shoshana Gottlieb?
While you were away, we had awhole discussion about spa baths
and the things that can live inthere.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, but there's going to be froth at the start,
middle and the end.
Look, I wouldn't be dippinginto any spa baths.
I don't like spas, so don't betoo harsh on Australia's only
kosher lodging with regard tothe spa bath, Tammy, because I
think those that venture intothe spa they're only asking for
trouble.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, victim blaming, it's your own fault.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, well, you know, just think twice before you
step into any spa.
Okay, yeah, go on.
What else didn't meet yourexpectations?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So I was chatting to Shoshana Gottlieb, former
fill-in co-host of this show,Jewish Memes Only, and Shoshana
said that she was joking withher fiancé that it couldn't
possibly be a kosher hotelbecause there aren't soda
streams in every room.
My new girlfriend did come downto Melbourne with me.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
It was an eye-opening experience for her.
It was her first foray intoJewish events.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Wow, what a foray, what a place to introduce her to
.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Just throw her right into the deep end of the pool at
Kimberley Gardens Hotel.
Just a reminder to ourlisteners Dash isn't Jewish.
I constantly have to remindthem because it's assumed.
Because you're the executivedirector at the Jewish
Independent and you did a PhD inbeing Jew.
That was the official title,wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
No, it was another title, but let's go with that
one for simplicity's sake.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Being Jew, so Dash.
When you first started datingSusie, what was the first Jewish
thing that she brought you to?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I think it was a Yom Kippur service.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Seriously.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No, it was Erev Yom Kippur.
It wasn't the full yom kippurservice, seriously, no, it was
era of yom kippur it wasn't thefull yom kippur service, it was
era of yeah, era of.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yom kippur is in like just the meal that you have
before you fast, or did she takeyou to a synagogue?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
no, is she talking to a synagogue?
We went to the era of yomkippur.
This the era of service,whatever that's called.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Colney.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Dre.
Thank you, I'm sorry, is itWell?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'd be so proud of myself if that's actually right.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I think isn't Colney Dre the oh no.
No, you're right.
Yes, it is Sorry.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm so proud of myself, all right.
Well, our situation is a littlebit different, because you had
done a PhD in being Jew beforeyou met Susie, right, and you
had Jewish friends andcolleagues, and yeah.
So my girlfriend hadn't reallyever spent time with a Jewish
person before she met me.
(09:21):
So all my friends in Melbourneand in Sydney were having such a
laugh about the fact that thefirst Jewish event that she was
attending was not, like you know, something fun like Sheer
Madness with Jewish music or,you know, shabbat dinner with
(09:43):
friends and family.
It was limut.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Session after session , lecture after lecture about
Jewish identity and Torah andTalmud anti-Semitism.
I do have to say, though, I wasquite impressed that when I led
her to Room 7 at the KimberleyGardens Hotel, st Kilda East,
(10:08):
she did clock that seven is avery meaningful number in
Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
She'd done a bit of background reading.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So it must be a highly sought-after room at the
Kimberley Gardens Hotel, StKilda East.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It is because it's the most un-kosher room in the
Kimberley Gardens Hotel, stKilda East.
It is because it's the mostunkosher room in the Kimberley
Gardens Hotel, st Kilda East.
That's all I'm going to sayabout that.
I'll leave the rest to yourimagination.
Dash, I'd like to thank you foryour hospitality while I was
down in Melbourne.
It was really lovely to see youin the flesh, as opposed to
(10:46):
behind a screen where we seeeach other every week.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Thank you so much for the ride on Saturday night to
Dawn and Mabel Wine Bar in StKilda.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yes, a very big hello , and thank you to Gull, who is
a shame to admit listener.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
It was a real novel experience riding in the back
seat of your car.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
You fit in though, didn't you?
You made it work.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
In the booster seat.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Possibly illegal.
But hey, we had no other way ofgetting you there in the
pouring rain.
So, it's true, in thefive-year-old's booster seat you
went.
Some would say that's where youbelong.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Some would say that's where I belong in the booster
seat of the back seat of a car.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Some would say I wouldn't say that, but some
might Still getting over thefact the fact, tammy, that you
said no to my suggestion abouthaving a little mid-afternoon
tour of St Kilda.
I'd love to conclude at thelast remaining Jewish cake shop
(11:58):
on Ackland Street.
There are still a few cakeshops there, but none as far as
I'm aware are still owned andusing traditional Jewish cakes
made by a Jewish family, like isthe case at Monarch Cake Shop,
which is one of my favourites inMelbourne, still using, I think
, the 120-year-old plus Polishrecipe for cheesecake.
(12:23):
Aw, you didn't want it.
You didn't want to go and havea delicious slice of Polish
cheesecake or babka or anynumber of other delicious treats
.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I didn't want to be bloated and have diarrhoea so
close to our live recording of AShame to Admit.
And here's the thing I don'tlike going to cafes or
restaurants if I know thatthere's nothing that I can eat
or drink.
I just feel so awkward sittingthere.
(12:57):
So you would have had a cakeand would you have had coffee in
the afternoon.
Yep, really Yep.
I can't have coffee after 12pm.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Okay, well, I've had a cake and late afternoon coffee
there on many occasions, and Iwas looking forward to doing
that with you and your newgirlfriend Tammy, but it wasn't
to be.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
She wouldn't have had the cake, it just would have
been the two of us sitting therewatching you have coffee.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Eating my cake.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
You would have been comfortable with that.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Sure your loss, not mine.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Next time.
I also didn't want to go toMonarch Cake Shop because it was
raining and I wanted to besomewhere with better airflow
because you had a cold.
You got to see a different sideof me.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
You mean your side that can't handle the remote
possibility or risk of beingcontaminated and coming down
with a cold.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yes, my extremely neurotic side.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I sort of knew that you were on the neurotic
spectrum, but didn't realisejust how much that manifested
itself with regard to colds.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Especially in winter and especially as someone who is
immunocompromised.
So I've arrived back in Sydneywith sinusitis.
So thank you so much for.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Oh, you think I gave you a cold.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
It could have been you.
We'll never know, Dash.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Could have been any number of those Melbourne yidden
that you were hugging andkissing and fraternising with
while you were in our fair city.
So don't lay the blame on me,defensive much.
I just want to say thank you somuch to all of the lovely
(14:51):
Ashamed to Admit listeners thatcame up to us over the course of
the week and introducedthemselves, said how much they
love listening to the show andhow it is not to be missed each
week on their downloads.
It was so nice to meet you alland to see some real-life fans
in the flesh.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So Dash, today we're having a little bit of a break
from interviewing people,because we've just been having
interview after interview, andat Limord we interviewed two
rabbis.
Today we're going back to thebeginning, how this podcast
started, which was just you andme in a studio together,
bringing each other questionsabout Jewishness, the Jewish
(15:34):
experience, Israel,anti-Semitism.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
The genesis of the show was that you wanted me to
help translate some of the news,some of the things happening
today in Israel and around theJewish world, and you wanted to
be freed of your shame about notknowing those things.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Well, I think we eventually realised that you
know one.
I actually don't know as muchas you think I do.
I'm also learning as we goalong the way.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, the idea was that you would also bring me
questions about the Jewishexperience that you were ashamed
, that you didn't know about.
But turns out you just didn'twant to be vulnerable and admit
to not knowing things, so thatmade that really hard.
Today we'll try and do that.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
We can try and make up for that today.
Tammy, I certainly don'tanticipate I'm alone in this
(16:49):
fairly careful about the amountof news that I am reading and
processing in recent months,particularly with regard to
Israel's ongoing war and thetoll that it is having both on
(17:10):
the people of Gaza and also onIsraelis as well, and not to
mention the sort of ongoinguncertainty about the hostages
and whether they will ever bereturned home.
Look, it's been a verychallenging couple of years for
anyone who is Jewish, has aclose relationship with Israel,
and as well for those of us whowork in Jewish organizations,
(17:35):
for those who work in mediaoutlets that are covering these
sorts of events and goings on.
You get to a point.
you know it can get overwhelmingand it can really weigh on you,
and so I you know, I'mcontinuing to read, listen,
(17:57):
engage, but not to probably thelevel that I have been that also
it goes with what's going on inthe united states as well.
The way I've really had to sortof step back in the last few
months from my consumption of uspolitics and just the total
mess that is being made by theTrump administration.
(18:17):
I've just you know, one has tobe selective about what they
listen to, and so yeah.
So as a result, tammy, I can'tcome to this conversation ready
to decode and break down thelatest goings on in Israel.
I'm aware that the Australiangovernment has just announced
(18:40):
sanctions against two Israeliministers and also the
cancellation of a visa forvisiting Israeli speaker and
online identity.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I saw that because they consider him a threat to
Australia's safety or that hissafety would be threatened.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I don't feel that there's really a lot of value in
having me reflect on them.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
In having our commentary.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
No, adding our commentary to it.
I don't.
There is plenty of commentaryout there on our website on the
Jewish Independent.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Some analysis and some wraps up there this week
and what I do want to talk about, if you want to discuss.
I do articles that are on ourwebsite that have really
resonated with me.
We have a Look.
It's not perfect, there aresome flaws with it, but the
overall thrust of the articlereally resonated with me.
(19:38):
It's called this and thisHolding Contradictory Truths by
Israeli Tom Ben-David.
This article I reallyappreciated last week.
He essentially points out thatthere are seemingly many
contradictory truths aboutIsrael's war with Hamas and
(20:01):
about the Israeli-Palestinianconflicts more generally.
And yet too often the impulseon behalf of Israel's attackers
and also its advocates and itssupporters is to reduce things
into binaries, reduce thingsinto the black and white.
You know the good and the evil,that either Israel can do no
(20:25):
right or Israel can do no wrong,depending on which side you
fall and that it's impossible tohold those two ideas at once.
People are increasingly unableto hold competing truths at once
, and yet, as this articleexplains at the very beginning,
judaism has a long tradition ofbeing open to and accepting
(20:48):
what's called cognitivedissonance.
Do you know what cognitivedissonance is?
Tammy call cognitive dissonance.
Do you know what?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
cognitive dissonance is Tammy.
I've heard it being said sooften in my WhatsApp groups,
usually with people saying thecognitive dissonance it's just
shocking, like there's usuallynegative undertones when talking
about cognitive dissonancePotentially so.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
It's certainly something that has come up and
I've heard it time and timeagain since October 7th.
So it was a term developed, Iunderstand, by an American
Jewish psychologist, leonFestinger, in 1957.
This concept in relation to themental discomfort that human
(21:36):
beings feel when they holdcontradictory beliefs, values or
attitudes at the same time, orwhen their attitudes don't align
with their beliefs, and so heposited that this psychological
tension creates an unpleasantfeeling that motivates you to
reduce that inconsistency.
And some of the ways thatyou'll typically do that
(21:59):
changing one of thoseconflicting beliefs or attitudes
, adding new beliefs thatjustify the inconsistency, this
one really in relation to theconflict we're talking about
here, seeking information thatsupports one side while avoiding
contradictory evidence.
I think we see a hell of a lotof that these days, where people
(22:24):
just cannot accept thecognitive dissonance, block out
the contradictory evidence and,you know, rally in as much
information as they can just tosupport their one-sided take on
the conflicts.
Clearly, as the author in thisarticle points out, in the
context of Israel's Hamas war,there are many truths that can
(22:47):
exist all at once, just to givelisteners a sense of Ben David's
voice and the tone of thearticle Ben David writes.
In the context of theIsrael-Hamas war, there are many
truths that exist all at once.
The humanitarian situation inGaza is bad and is deteriorating
(23:08):
rapidly, and people, many ofthem innocent people, are
suffering.
And under international law,israel is not obliged to provide
humanitarian aid to Gaza.
And Israel should provide aiddespite having no obligation,
and humanitarian organizationsare vehemently opposed to Israel
(23:28):
being involved in aiddistribution.
And much of the aid enteringGaza is being looted by Hamas
and wouldn't make it to thecivilians who actually need it.
And providing more aid wouldlower its prices and allow more
aid to get to civilians.
And supplying more aid wouldenrich and empower Hamas and
merchant warlords in Gaza,enabling to sustain the war for
(23:50):
longer.
And the hostages must come home.
And Hamas won't release thehostages without pressure on
Gaza and continued fighting willfurther endanger the lives of
the hostages and Netanyahu'streatment of the hostage
families is callous andinexcusable.
And many of those outraged byNetanyahu don't care about the
(24:12):
hostages, and the people in Gazaare still suffering.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Oh, powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You get the flavour of this article.
He really is trying to hold thevery contradictory or
paradoxical elements of theconflicts and trying to hold the
two together and point to whatare facts.
There will be some people whowill contest some of those
statements, for sure, but thereare certainly things all the way
(24:44):
through in there that youcannot contest.
It was really welcome to readthis article because it's the
way I, and I know there arepeople out there that feel that
this conflict is all too oftenreduced down to black and whites
, to binaries, and I think thereare also, you know, thinking in
(25:08):
a Jewish community context.
I think there are some thatbelieve that, acknowledging the
suffering that Palestinians arecurrently experiencing, that
Gazans are currentlyexperiencing the depths of the
humanitarian situation, thatthat is somehow playing into
Israel's enemies and it'sundermining its cause.
(25:30):
And I just think that that'syou know, that's it's
undermining its cause and I justthink that that's you know,
that's it doesn't.
it just actually makes you humanthat you can simultaneously
believe that Israel has a rightto defend itself and that there
are limits to what that means,and the humanitarian situation
(25:52):
in Gaza is unacceptable.
And yeah, I thought thisarticle, as I said, it's not
perfect, there are flaws in it,there are things that you could
and I'm sure people have pickedout that don't quite work, but
ultimately the general essenceof what he is trying to say
resonates for me and I think forothers as well.
(26:12):
I've noticed that there was alot of positive feedback on our
social media channels from someof our followers.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Thanks for bringing that.
I think, the concept of sayingand instead of but, but is
really helpful in context thanjust this conflict in the Middle
East.
Taking a leaf out of that book,I agree with everything you're
saying and I know that there's aschool of thought out there,
(26:43):
represented by a lot of myJewish friends' dads, who
believe that there are enoughpeople, enough people
criticizing Israel, that theJewish people need to not give
any quote free kicks to thosehaters and therefore it's a
(27:05):
responsibility to balance outall the criticism with advocacy.
So I'm not saying I necessarilyagree with them.
I'm saying this is I'm justadding an and to that argument.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I hear that.
I don't agree with it.
I don't think this is azero-sum game.
I don't think that youracknowledgement of the suffering
of Gazans means that thatproduces or you know is a point
lost to Israel.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Or a threat to Israel .
Speaker 2 (27:41):
No.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I can accept that others see it differently and
that they feel that there needsto be some evening of the ledger
or that it is theresponsibility of Jewish people
to be in solidarity with Israelduring this time of war.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yes, okay, well, listeners can read that article
on the Jewish Independencewebsite.
We'll leave a link in the shownotes.
Today, dash, I am bringing anarticle to the table written by
(28:26):
Lee Kaufman, who is anincredible Melbourne-based
author and editor of eight booksin Hebrew and in English.
She's also a writing teacherand mentor.
Earlier this month, lee Kaufmanwrote a piece called Am I White
(28:48):
?
I'm Not Sure.
Byline, whether Jews are whitehas little to do with our bodies
and everything to do with theideas society projects onto us,
and this piece really resonatedwith me because it's an idea
that's been on my mind for along time, but especially since
(29:10):
October 7 and particularly sinceour conversation with Ben M
Freeman, which was all aboutJewish indigeneity, which was a
brilliant episode.
We had so much great feedbackon that.
So if you're a new listener tothis podcast, I highly recommend
going back and listening to ourinterview with Ben M Freeman.
(29:34):
So the main idea put forward byLee Kaufman is really an
exploration of the complexshifting relationships between
Ashkenazi Jews, specifically,and whiteness, especially in the
Australian context post-October7.
And what I gathered from thatis that Lee was arguing that
(29:57):
Jews are often considered whitewhen it suits others, but we
remain perpetual outsiders.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
So, Tammy, interested in your experience and how what
Lee raises in the article hasplayed out for you in your life
growing up, did you feel thatwhite as a young Jewish woman?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
It's so funny you ask that, and I didn't even plan to
talk about this, it's just thatthis memory just popped up.
I don't know at what agechildren start to think about
the color of their skin and howthat plays into social status or
whatever, but I remember beingin year six, so I was 11 years
(30:45):
old, and I wanted to get atalent agent because I wanted to
start being in ads or home andaway.
That was the dream at that age.
And I went to see a potentialrepresentative and she asked me
where I was born and I saidAustralia.
And she asked me my nationalityand I said Australian and she
(31:06):
said but you're Jewish?
And I said yeah, but that's myreligion.
At the time I went to a modernorthodox school and I did
identify as being Jewish as areligion, and she insisted that
that was my nationality and Ididn't get it.
All my life I've always beenasked where are you from?
(31:29):
And I've said Australia andthey've said yeah, but where are
you really from?
And then at some point I'd say,okay, well, my grandparents
were from Eastern Europe,they're Polish, so I'm Polish.
And then I'd have people saybut you don't look Polish Like.
Where is your fair hair andyour blue eyes, and I was like I
(31:50):
don't understand what is goingon.
And it wasn't until much laterin life that I realized that
Ashkenazi Sephardi Mizrahi,ashkenazi Sephardi Mizrahi there
(32:14):
is a Jewish look and thatsomehow that is linked to
indigeneity to the land that iscurrently referred to as Israel,
palestine.
So I've never identified aswhite, and certainly when we had
Holocaust education, themessage was pretty clear that we
weren't white enough.
So that's why it's beenparticularly cutting when I hear
(32:38):
people criticising Israel referto Jews as white colonizers,
because it's like I've neverbeen white enough for you, but
now, at this point in history,because it suits you, I'm
(32:58):
suddenly white.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
And so.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I think that part of Lee's article really really rang
true for me.
In her article, lee grappleswith how Ashkenazi Jews are
racially socially perceived inAustralia, something else that
she said I'm pulling this as aquote that they, the people
(33:22):
projecting whiteness onto Jews.
They argue that whiteness isnot biology but a social
construct that offersinvisibility and privilege, and
that's something that Ipersonally, tammy, have never
fully enjoyed.
There's also this idea ofnormative whiteness and passing.
(33:45):
So Lee Kaufman notes that insome ways she passes as white,
but only until she startsspeaking and her Russian,
israeli accent betrays heridentity.
Now I have what many peoplewould describe as an Australian
accent, but my accent oftenbetrays me because, also
(34:07):
throughout my entire life, I'vealways been asked what's your
accent and I've said it's anAustralian accent, and they've
said, no, it's not, and I'vesaid, well, I don't know, is it
maybe a little bit British?
A few years ago someone said tome you have a Jewish accent,
(34:28):
and I think what they meantbecause I am from Sydney and
grew up not living but going toschool and hanging around with
people in the deep East is maybeI have an accent that has some
South African influence, someRussian influence, that maybe
there's some intonation that's alittle bit Jewish.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, but it doesn't mean that should be a signifier
for everyone to assumeeverything about that person's
life and their identity.
And that's what you're saying,right?
You're saying that it justflattens you all into one
homogenous group.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Exactly.
That comes up again when Leewrites about the fact that this
assumed white privilege isweaponized.
So Jews are often excluded fromdiversity programs or denied
social empathy because they areassumed to be white.
And I would add so this is me,tammy, speaking.
(35:31):
I would add that they're alsoassumed to be wealthy, which is
a topic that you and I havedebunked on this podcast in
Season 1, so I encourage ourlisteners to go back and listen
to that episode as well.
Lee writes in our multiculturalsociety, to designate Jews as
(35:52):
white is actually yet anotherway to marginalise us, and this
paradoxical narrative of Jewishwhite privilege goes on strong
because the collective storyshines brighter by outsourcing
to us whatever Australia doesn'twant to own oppression, greed
(36:15):
and now alleged genocide Prettypowerful shit.
Before I wrap up this bit Dash,I want to say that I really
appreciated that Lee Kaufmanacknowledged the Jews who were
not born Jewish as well, becausethey're quite often left out of
(36:36):
this narrative.
So she addresses the fact that,genetically, all Jews are a
distinct group that originatedfrom the Middle East.
Ashkenazim spent the lastmillennia in Europe and, while
there has been some mixing withlocal populations, their genetic
makeup remains different,resembling other Jews as well as
(36:57):
Arabic North Africanpopulations, far more than their
European neighbors.
But how important is this?
She writes not all peopleidentifying as Jewish are
genetically such.
I think Ben M Freeman and myfriends who've converted or who
(37:17):
are in the process of conversionwould be pleased to read that
too.
She says more so, when we talkabout whiteness we don't really
talk about biology, becausewhiteness has always been a
multifaceted, fluid, contestedsocial construct.
You might even say, dash, thatthis topic is tendentious.
(37:41):
Oh, it's unbalanced.
No, it's not.
It's not tendentious, it'scontentious.
I'll leave a link in the shownotes to this article as well.
I just want to say that LeeKaufman gives the best
exclamation mark.
At the end of her piece, shesaid she still hasn't found the
right words to describe herself.
(38:01):
But there are three things shefeels certain about.
But there are three things shefeels certain about.
One, jews are a small minority,always marked as other.
Two, she says she'd never callherself white.
And three, it is not up tonon-Jewish people to say who I
am, and I couldn't have said itbetter myself.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, this has been fun, Tammy.
I've enjoyed this opportunityjust to chat you, and I Chew the
fat.
We'll be back again nextTuesday, of course, with another
episode of A Shame to Admit.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
You've been listening to.
A Shame to Admit with me, TammySussman.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
And me, Dash Lawrence .
Speaker 1 (38:45):
This episode was mixed and edited by Nick King,
with theme music by DonovanJenks.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
If you like the podcast, forward it to a mate.
Tell them it's nearly asenjoyable as a spa bath in Room
7 at Australia's only kosherhotel.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
You can tell us what you're ashamed to admit via the
contact form on the JewishIndependent website or by
emailing ashamed at thejewishindependentcomau.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
As always, thanks for your support and look out for
us next week.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!