May 22, 2024 • 33 mins
One of the biggest risks in producing food is the weather. Uncertainty around rain, heat, frost, wind and other weather-related disasters results in a lot of sleepless nights for farmers and ranchers in this country. But what if we take the largest risk out of the equation? Vertical farming has been developing throughout Canada as a method to reduce risk and provide a localized food option for certain products. Alida Burke from Growcer, a Canadian start up modular, vertical farming company, will explain more about how vertical farming fits into our food system.
Host:
Clinton Monchuk grew up on a mixed dairy, beef and grain family farm outside of Lanigan, Saskatchewan. He received his Bachelor’s of Science in Agriculture majoring in Agricultural Economics from the University of Saskatchewan and Masters of Business Administration in Agriculture from the University of Guelph. Clinton has enjoyed numerous roles across Canada, the United States and Mexico as a researcher, educator, manager, economist and director of trade policy.
In 2016, Clinton accepted the role of Executive Director with Farm & Food Care Saskatchewan to promote farming and ranching to consumers. Clinton understands the value of increasing public trust in agriculture and actively promotes engagement between the agriculture industry and consumers.
Clinton, Laura and their children Jackson and Katelyn, are active partners on their family grain and layer farm in Saskatchewan and cattle ranch in Oklahoma.
Guest:
Alida Burke, CFO and co-founder, Growcer
Alida Burke is the co-founder and CFO of Growcer, which empowers communities to grow fresh, hyper-local produce year-round through its hydroponic modular farms. She fell into her role as an entrepreneur when she saw the impact the local food makes, but still enjoys working with numbers, by leading Growcer’s operational strategy to support customers growing year-round across the country. When Alida is not managing the behind-the-scenes at Growcer you can find her giving back to her local entrepreneurship community or curled up with a good book.
Resources:
Growcer
Modular Farms article
Episode Credits: Research and writing by Dorothy Long and Penny Eaton, Produced and edited by Angela Larson and Michael Jordon, Music by Andy Ellison-Track title: Gravel Road
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speaker 2 (00:07):
From Canadian Food Focus. This is Ask a Farmer.
I'm your host Clinton Manuk . ASaskatchewan farmer. In this
podcast, we talk to foodexperts to answer your
questions about your food.
(00:27):
Welcome to the podcast,everybody. Today we're gonna be
talking about vertical farming.
So, as a farmer, some of thebiggest risks that I deal with
every year are related to theweather. We have so much
uncertainty when it comes torain and heat and frost wind.
Heck, we even have tornadoesthat rip through our place. So
there's a lot of disasters thatcan happen as a result of the
(00:51):
weather, and this ends upcausing a lot of sleepless
nights for us as farmers andranchers trying to make sure
that we can grow the food thatwe provide to Canadians and
people throughout the world.
Now, what if we could take thebiggest risk of farming out of
the equation? Vertical farminghas been developed throughout
Canada as a way to reduce someof these food risks and provide
(01:13):
localized food options forcertain food products. Today we
have Alita Burke with us fromGrocer, which is a Canadian
startup modular verticalfarming company, and she's
gonna explain a little bit moreabout how vertical farming fits
into our food system. How areyou doing today, Alita ?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Not too bad, but I'm excited to be here,.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's, it's great to have you on. Maybe explain
some of your background and,and , uh, how you got to where
you are today.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Uh , my name is Alita Burke . I'm the
co-founder and CFO here atGrocer . Uh, born and raised in
the Ottawa area, and ultimatelywhere grocer got its start ,
uh, my , uh, business partnerand I were studying at the
University of Ottawa , uh,specifically in business and in
social enterprise. So lookingat how you can intersect
(02:00):
business , uh, environment andsocial considerations into
building , uh, a business. Andso while we were at the
University of Ottawa, we werefortunate enough to go up to
Northern Canada for the firsttime and have that very common
sticker shock experience wherefood prices are , are quite
high and it spurred us to wantto do something about it. So
(02:21):
that's was about eight or nineyears ago now. Wow . And , uh,
from there, we've kind of justbeen building grocer ever
since. Um, and supportingfarmers and new farmers across
Canada to be able to grow foodlocally in their communities.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Vertical farming, it's a little different. It's
pretty new. You , do you wannajust walk us through what
vertical farming is and, and ,uh, you know, just some of the
things around that and, andeven maybe some of the
differences between say what avertical farm is and what a
modular farm is.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yes, for sure. It's definitely a great question,
and one , we get a lot .
Vertical farming is almost anall encompassing term to talk
about indoor growing in acontrolled environment setting.
And the vertical usuallyreferences vertical stacks,
let's say. You can see this ina warehouse farm, usually in
larger cities in Canada , uh,or in what we do , uh, here at
(03:12):
Grocer, which we use the termmodular farming, but that's
mostly in the sense that ourcontainers are modular, so you
kind of inter , uh, plug themin and can move them and things
like that. But in its core,it's still vertical farming.
Now you also will use termslike hydroponic farming or
aeroponics. And so verticalfarming, you can use those
(03:36):
different types of methods,which is more so how you farm.
So hydroponics, you're growingfood without soil, and it's
typically , uh, using water asits main medium to grow the
plants. Aeroponics, it's, it'sslightly different in that it's
usually suspended in air andit's kind of water pellets
going to the, to the plants ,uh, is a bit of a different
(03:57):
approach. Um , but then you canalso use hydroponic farming,
you'll see typically ingreenhouses as well, where that
doesn't encompass verticalfarming. So vertical usually is
indoors controlled. And inthose typical stacks,
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Do you wanna just walk through, like, what are
some of those foods that wouldactually be supplied through
these vertical farms , uh, inan effort to feed people in
downtown Calgary or downtownwherever?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah. No, it's , it's a great question because
that's how we also gotintroduced to this concept of
hydroponic vertical farmingwas, you know, we weren't
farmers ourselves originally.
We were more interested in ,um, the social and the business
aspect , uh, pertaining togrowing. And so at its core,
(04:43):
why it was interesting to uswas in this Canadian landscape,
you can't grow year round inmany places across Canada. And
so hydroponics can be used and,and vertical farming can be
used to grow a variety ofdifferent types of crops. But
typically what you'll see areleafy greens as the staple
crop. And usually that isbecause it is a quick turnover
(05:05):
crop, so you can grow it muchmore quickly in an , a vertical
or hydroponic farming methodthan you could in that
traditional soil-based method.
So you're looking at usuallyfrom seed to harvest of about
six weeks or so. Oh, wow. Um,and other types of leafy green
adjacent , um, things, so let'scalled spinach arugula, and
then you go into your herbs aswell. Your , um, mint your
(05:28):
basil Mm-Hmm . ,things of that nature. So you
can grow other crops as well.
Like , uh, there's a lot of ,um, development being done for
strawberries and how you can dothat in a economically viable
way in a fully indoor setting.
But you'll see the staple cropsbeing lettuce and leafy greens
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You mentioned. Uh , really it takes away some of
that need to especially importsome of these products during
the wintertime, typically fromCalifornia, but also say Mexico
or, or Central America, whichthen, you know, obviously you
have that transportation comingin and, and I think there's
just a heightened level of justawareness, right. That with
(06:06):
some of the transportation thattakes place with some of our
products. But I do have to ask,I actually have spinach every
day and I love my strawberries.
Is there a difference in thetaste of this? Like, is it
different when you're growingthis where it's on artificial
light versus natural light? I,I don't know if it is. Or with
the soils or, you know ,hydroponics or aero products
(06:30):
with something that brand new.
I never even heard of thatuntil you mention it. So , um,
is , is there any difference, Iassume that you've tasted quite
a few of these differentproducts, right?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Mm-Hmm, , I mean, for me
personally, and I might beslightly biased in this
instance, I thinkhydroponically grown produce
usually there's definitely adifference in quality, which
impacts that taste. You know,like if we call it from a
research perspective, there'sno specific difference that we
would see in terms of nutrientlevels, but you're definitely
(07:02):
touching on things likequality, right? You are able to
harvest it much closer to whenit would actually end up on
store shelves or on your plateright . Uh , at home. And then
you're also growing typically adifferent variety of, of , uh,
lettuce or other types of leafygreen , um, things that you
wouldn't typically see comingfrom California. So typically
(07:23):
that is that romaine hearts andthings like that, that you
would see at the grocery store.
Whereas different types ofthings that, that a lot of our
farmers grow are , let's saybutter crunch lettuces at its
core there. I think it's justan interesting taste because
it's not typically what youwould see at the grocery store.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah. I I've never actually heard you said butter
lettuce?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah. Butter crunch . Butter
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Crunch lettuce butter. You gotta tell me
what's butter crunch lettuce? Inot , 'cause I want to find
this . It sounds good.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
If you look at it and it's in your hand, let's
say it kind of almost lookslike a flour . It has Wow . Um,
a softer, and that's why it'sreferenced as butter. Butter ,
yeah . Head or butter crunch,let's call it, is because it
has almost like a butter, likeconsistency is what it's
referred to. So it's, it's,yeah, it's just a , a , a
tastier product and it's onethat I , almost all of our
(08:14):
clients are growing because ,uh, people love to eat it.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it would be
nutrient dense too, if it'ssomething like that too . But
from your point of view, what,why is there maybe a stronger
push towards this now thanthere has been in the past? And
just interesting to hear yourinsight on that.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
What we've seen here in Canada , uh, there's a few
key reasons. The first has beenthat year round availability.
We work with a lot of clientsthat are in remote places in
Canada, or, you know, are lessaccessible. And especially over
the last few years with thechallenges with supply and
(08:56):
getting things to the end,consumer has definitely rattled
what we would say is the normand what you can rely upon on a
consistent basis. So havingsomething that is local that
you can understand and knowthat there's a consistent
supply and that it's, you know,meters from, let's say the
grocery store or the endconsumer is a big pull ,
(09:20):
especially in the wanting toknow where your food comes
from. And that local foodmovement has been a massive
driver over the last few yearsto bring it back to that
neighborhood level. The secondone is also transportation
costs. Uh , and I think youtouched on this, I believe it's
about 90% of our lettuce isimported and you mostly from
California and Mexico. And soby the time it reaches store
(09:45):
shelves , uh, the qualitysometimes is just not quite up
to par , uh, or what we would,would like to see. So a lot of
, um, our, our clients aregrowing steps away from where
the client can kind of pick itup and, and bring it home. So
for example, the Muskoka , uh,good Foods co-op, they're in
(10:05):
the Muskoka region of Ontario,and they have a farm just steps
outside of their cooperativestore. And so they've replaced
all of the lettuce that theywould typically have on the
store shelves for folks comingthrough town , um, is now grown
in their parking lot, andthey're able to bring down
their, their price that theycan offer because that
transportation cost is gone. Soit's things like that that
(10:28):
we've seen consistently beingsome of those key drivers. Um,
in terms of reliability,transportation and , and
quality. A few otherconsiderations that I didn't
touch on would also be yieldand water consumption. The
first, and one of the importantfactors with growing indoors,
in particular with hydroponicfarming is around water
(10:49):
consumption. So typically ifyou're comparing the output of,
let's say, lettuce in ahydroponic farm compared to ,
uh, growing in soil, you'reusing about 90 to 95% less
water Wow. Than you wouldtypically use. So it's a big
factor, especially where waterscarcity is an issue. Mm-Hmm.
(11:09):
. And is whereyou'll typically see also the
proliferation of these types offarms because of water being a
major constraint and growing.
Uh, the other one is yield. Sofor our farm footprint, you're
looking at the , the 40 pipe ,10 structure. You're looking at
typically about 800 to 900heads a week , uh, is what you
(11:30):
can produce depending on yourcrop variety heads , heads of
lettuce, right? Heads oflettuce, let's call it. Um , if
you're looking at herbs, the ,it's a little bit different,
but right . Let's call it headsof lettuce. So from seed to
harvest , you're typicallylooking at about six weeks ,
which is about 30 to 50% fasterthan what you would have in ,
(11:51):
in , it's one of the keyfactors is why you see those
types of crops more commonly ina hydroponic farm is just
because you can produce themreally well in, in that type of
environment. And , um, and animportant factor with
hydroponic farming in , ingeneral is just the efficiency
of space in what you'regrowing.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Would it be kind of the same if, if I go and I
think of our garden on the farmand we have, you know, lettuce
and cucumbers and stuff likethat, the things that you could
go grow in this kind of asituation and for whatever
reason, when you have thatability to let it ripen just a
little bit more, and I don'tknow what the scientific how
much more, but when you havethe ability to let that ripen a
(12:32):
little bit more and then, youknow, take a bite of that, you
know, lettuce or a cucumber orwhatever it is that day , there
is a little bit of a different,I don't know if it's more your
mind than anything, but it doestaste different, right? So, so
for example, that cooperativeand Muskoka, like, are they
finding that it actually tastesfrom their perspective better,
(12:52):
even though nutritionally it'sthe same?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
That's something that I receive constantly as
that feedback. I know my momtells me that all the time.
She's like, I don't wanna buygrocery store lettuce, I want
lettuce from you. So it's, it'ssomething about it where I ,
the quality, and maybe that'smom speaking, but , um,
I think, I think it'sdefinitely a big one for the
Muskoka store. They, theyharvest on a specific day. I
(13:16):
think it's Wednesday orThursday, and then by Saturday
it's all sold. Wow . It's, Ithink there's definitely
something about the , theproduct itself, whether it's
just the varieties that theycan grow and, and, and
inherently maybe it's thevarieties that are, have a
different taste. Mm-Hmm .
. But , uh,consistently, I , i , uh, hear
that all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You have some great videos on YouTube and, and I, I
watch some of them. It'sinteresting how you control
some of the, the aspects of,say, pests that I would have to
deal with on my farm. Right? SoI obviously it's not a
controlled environment, soyou're gonna have bugs, you're
gonna have weeds, you're gonnahave diseases and stuff like
that. But your system,obviously it's different,
(13:55):
right? Because you have a, a ,it's a modular type of a
system. Do you wanna explain alittle bit how you control that
environment to make sure youlimit the introduction of
different pests, but, but evenat that, like what do you do on
that biosecurity side to makesure Mm-Hmm .
that things are staying totheir, their optimum condition.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
If you imagine what our type of technology looks
like, it's a 40 foot shippingcontainer , uh, esque style.
Now it's structurally insulatedpanels , uh, building 40 by 10.
At its core. The, the best partis it's an enclosed system ,
uh, where, you know, you don'thave, like you said, an open
crop sort of situation. So thatis good at keeping bugs out.
(14:37):
Now, the key factor is makingsure that you don't bring bugs
in to keep it so that it's anice controlled environment for
the plants to grow. So the bigones are the physical barriers,
so maintaining a positivepressure sort of environment so
that when you're coming in,there's , um, also an air
curtain and some physicalcontrols to make sure as much
(14:58):
as possible can keep goodpractices. The second piece is
a lot of maintenance andcleaning, like the majority of
the time you spend in the farmis actually cleaning and making
sure it's a , as, as cleaningcleanup as an environment as
possible for the plants togrow, then actually harvesting
or some of those other tasksthat are typically done. And
then we also, some clientstypically might use some of
(15:20):
those biological controlproducts as well. Um, whether
that be beneficial predatorsthat will , um, eat the bad
things in the farm , let's sayif , if you got aphids or if
you had other sort of issueslike that. Uh, those are some
of the key factors, but it'sdefinitely all in the controls
so that as much as possible,you don't bring anything in,
(15:40):
but when you do, you can, youknow, pest scout and have those
key procedures to make surethat you're, you're maintaining
your environment as, as cleanas possible so that they don't
, uh, proliferate.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah. Which is , which is great because, and
again, because it's acontrolled environment, it's a
little easier to introduce someof those things to take care of
other bad things that, thatmight have come in. Mm-Hmm.
, and we talked alot about the, the, some of the
benefits around the verticalfarms. Do you wanna talk about,
you know, how you see some ofthe technology changing in the
(16:11):
future because it's, it's everimproving, right? And , and I
see it on our farm too, right ?
Technology always gets betterand better over time, but what
do you see as some of those newleaps that are coming forward
around vertical farming , uh,going into the future?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
That's a great question. I think there's a,
there's two key avenues that Isee , uh, coming up again and
again. One is in terms of whatyou can grow in an indoor , uh,
environment that is meetingwhere the industry is at in
terms of price point and thingslike that. So a lot of movement
being done in strawberryproduction , uh, in terms of
(16:48):
how you can grow strawberriesindoors year round , especially
in a place like Canada wherethat's just not possible. Uh ,
and, and other berries for thatmatter. Mm-hmm .
, um, indoors. Now there's moretechnical considerations for
growing strawberries becausethey're a reproductive plant.
And so there's pollination andother key variables that you
don't need in a , a lettucefarm, let's call it. Right? Um
(17:12):
, and other types of crops likethat. So strawberries,
cucumbers, peppers, things likethat think are at the forefront
of, of what can be grown on anongoing basis. And then the
second is, yeah, where doesautomation play in a vertical
farm? So for something likeours where the footprint is
quite, is relatively small atthis point in time, full
(17:35):
automation doesn't make sense.
It's too costly. But in some ofthese warehouse farms, you see
more automation coming throughand how can you throw AI or
robotics or other kind offactors into the mix to make it
so that ultimately , uh, you'remore efficient and can provide
a lower cost product to the endconsumer. Um, but I think
(17:56):
there's definitely, at leastfrom our perspective, because
we look at a , a smallerfootprint, that is still always
a way in terms of , um,something that makes sense for
what we do. Mm-Hmm .
, but definitelyare the two biggest trends that
I see in the vertical farmingindustry as a whole.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So this leads us perfectly into the fun farm
fact for the , uh, podcasttoday. Did you know that the
first ever hands-free verticalfarm opened in British
Columbia, March of 2023? Ituses touchless technology from
seeding right through toharvest. And this was taken
from Bennett Jones , uh, herein 2024 when they did a little
(18:38):
bit of a report on that. Andit's interesting because you
made the comment that thetechnology is getting better,
but it doesn't make a lot ofeconomic sense. So this, and ,
and similar to what we see witha lot of technologies ,
something comes out , um, it'sreally interesting, but doesn't
necessarily make economic senseuntil you kind of fine tune it
and maybe some other companiescome in and and provide that
(18:59):
service. Is that where youthink that might be an option
later on in the future too for,for yourselves?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
For sure. With Warehouse Farms, it makes a lot
of sense because you're justdealing with a sheer amount of
volume and , uh, square footagewhere you're able to kind of
have that automation workreally, really well. I think
for us, we'll find probably ahybrid approach where you're
finding some ways to automatecertain processes in a small
(19:26):
environment or , uh, you thenbuild up your processing
capacity of let's say multiplefarms going into one processing
space that then has thosepieces in there where you can
bring that volume together tomake it make sense. So
definitely we'll see that inthe future 100% as , uh, as it
evolves and grows for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Now we wanna understand a little bit more
about grocer. And again, Iwatched the videos. I really
feel that this is a trulyunique company that you have
and it offers a solution tosome food insecurity. But I
want you to explain exactly howyou develop this to all our
listeners so they can kind ofunderstand a little bit more
about who Grocer is and, andreally what some of that target
(20:07):
audience you're trying to getto is.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Mm-Hmm .
, yes. Grocerstarted in 2016 , uh, as
actually more of a schoolinitiative than anything else
while we were at the Universityof Ottawa learning and
implementing social enterpriseconsiderations and , and facets
into, into business. Uh, and Ithink we see that more and more
now, and , and it's is anatural fit in agriculture too,
(20:32):
in terms of how can you findways , uh, from the
environmental perspective andsocial perspective and how it
all fits together. We weren'tfarmers to begin with. Uh, so
it was definitely a big, biglearning curve. Uh, we got our
first few farms. The first onewas in Churchill, Manitoba,
where we had a great partnerwith the Churchill Northern
(20:52):
Study Center to , uh, support ,uh, the , the first of this
type of farm in Canada to growyear round at least one our
first of ours, I should say.
And so that was a reallypivotal point for us to see
what worked, what didn't work,and continue to iterate on that
type of technology on anongoing basis. A lot of it is
the inherent knowledge andprocess around growing in this
(21:15):
type of technology on anongoing basis. So that comes
with experience and, andlearning. So from then, you
know, we've a network of justover 80 farms across Canada.
They collectively grow about 10million servings of vegetables
every year, which is reallygreat to see and is really
comes down to that communitylevel too, of supporting local
(21:38):
key initiatives, whether ofcourse, the, the growing aspect
is key, but then there's theother facets that come with
that, where it's local jobcreation , uh, local health
facets, if there's certain keyissues that you're looking to
target that this can kind ofplay an important part in. So
as you've probably experiencedwith your farm, it's , it's
kind of brings people totogether. It's that community
(21:59):
aspect that , um, your farmsupports. So it's those key
facets that are, are so , uh,impactful and that really kind
of gets us up and going in themorning. But to go back to, I
guess that evolutionary processis , is really how it, it's ,
we, we went through it is , isa lot of learning as we are
going over year over year withFarm Over Farm is perfecting
(22:22):
that , um, key operation to, tomake sure people are, are
successful.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
If I understand correctly, like the , the, what
tweaked your interest is whenyou went into a northern
community where, you know,growing food is very limited,
if at all in some of thesecommunities. So is that how you
felt that there was this need,that desire for some of these
communities to actually havethe option to get fresh local
produced food?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, a hundred percent . It was originally we
thought, oh, maybe we can starta project where we , uh, work
with a local community to , uh,grow food year round . Uh, and
as we went through the process,we realized there wasn't a
solution , uh, that we couldtap into that we could do it
right away. So we kind of builtthe business that we had wished
(23:11):
there was eight years ago withthe support of, of communities
that wanted to do thisthemselves. A big topic and a
big theme that we've seen overthe last , uh, eight years has
been around food sovereignty.
How can we create a resilientlocal food system that , uh, is
not a hundred percent relianton, on long supply chains , uh,
(23:31):
supply chains that can bedisrupted? And interestingly,
over the last few years, we'veseen that sentiment and that
that local food movement growconsistently in the people that
we speak to is as a key factorand a , a very important one ,
um, to make sure that they canrely on something that's local
(23:51):
and then that they can kind ofgrow and maintain themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So you were on Dragon's Den, but just touch on
your experience about thisbecause it truly is interesting
that entrepreneurial , uh,nature of this to, to try and
go forward and, and maybe justgive the listeners a little bit
of a background on that.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yes. We filmed back in 2018 and it was a really
great experience. Uh , a littlebehind the scenes is you
typically, they'll go to cityto city to , uh, you do your
pitch basically to see if theywill bring you to Toronto to do
the full fledged filming indowntown CBC headquarters. And
(24:29):
, uh, we were fortunate enoughto be able to move on to that
process and we officially airedin early 2019. We had a really,
yeah , great experience. Theonly thing that kind of was a
wrench in our plans was theywanted something visual that
you could kind of see and , andtouch and feel what it is that
you do. So we thought, okay,we'll bring a full rack of ,
(24:49):
uh, produce that we weregrowing in Ottawa and have it
on site and on set . Verydifficult to bring that
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I can imagine from
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Ottawa to Trump .
And we had some high ambitions.
And then what we learned wasthat you can't have any water
on set, which is a challengewhen you're growing
hydroponically where it's allwater, all water. So all the
plants died overnight beforefilm the next day, .
But they did their creativemagic. So you can't, you can
tell if you are lookingclosely, but uh, they got some
(25:18):
good shots to kind of make sureyou don't really see that they
did not last and , and , uh,had a bit of a challenging
onscreen debut, but , uh, butit was a really great
experience and they were allvery kind and, you know,
supportive for that next, youknow, generation of Canadian
entrepreneurs, I guess youcould say. So , um, really
(25:38):
great experience and they've ,and for us , uh, we see it come
back every once in a while,whether it's reruns or it used
to be on some streamingservices, and it's a great way
for people to kind of getintroduced to what we do. We've
got a few farmers that camethrough that channel, and then
a lot of people who areinterested in this type of
technology who might wanna workfor grocers. So, oh , wow .
It's a thing I hear a lot is Isaw your episode on Dragon
(26:02):
Stand and x, y , Z, so it'sbeen a , a really fruitful
thing that , uh, has paiddividends over the last few
years.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
It's a feel good story, right? Because you've,
you , you're trying to kind ofhelp some of those communities
that , that maybe like we said,don't necessarily have access
to the, the fresh food all thetime. Do you feel this is one
of those solutions that we needto really , uh, hone in on to
allow the communities toactually have access to some of
(26:28):
these nutrient dense and , and, uh, good food that's grown
locally?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
For sure. I think for us, our main goal and
mission is to create some localresilient food networks,
especially in areas wherethat's just not possible. And
so where we started, and a lotof the folks that we've, we've
supported over the years hasbeen in those remote and many,
in many places, indigenouscommunities where there just
(26:55):
isn't an option to grow yearround and, and a lot of want
and, and , uh, intent to buildsomething that's local so that
they can rely on that yearround . Over the past eight or
so years though, you know,we've seen that diversify too
in terms of , uh, a lot of ourclientele are food cooperative
stores that are looking to havea local option that they can
(27:16):
have for their, you know, havea quality product on the store
shelves, especially in WesternCanada. We see, we see that a
lot. And then farmers who arelooking to diversify, we see
that too , uh, in more insouthern Canada where let's say
they might be a dairy farm andare looking to grow crops as
well. So definitely a , astrong tool in the tool chest,
I guess you could call it. Yeah. To complement and further
(27:39):
strengthen, especially in thesetypes of crops where, you know
, um, otherwise it would haveto be I imported . So
definitely I think could be areally key facet as we continue
to have, you know, climateshifts and challenges and
reliability for year-roundgrowing. I think this plays an
important part in that.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
How many do you have? I think you mentioned it
before, but it , there's howmany?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, we're just over 80 farms across town .
Speaker 2 (28:05):
80 , 80 farms. Wow.
So in terms of grocer, what,what do you consider one farm
to be? Is that like onecontainer, is it multiple
containers? How do you kind oftalk about that with one of
your farms?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
We typically call one container, one farm, and
then once we look at multiplefarms, we usually call that a
farm plex. So , uh, three farm, farm plex, let's call it, is,
is something where it's a bitof a bigger footprint. But
yeah, one, one farm is, is ,uh, what we would call it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And again, my mind always goes through the , the
process that I have to gothrough and the labor that I
have to find for my own farm indifferent seasons. But does it
take one full-time person or isit a part-time person to run
one of your module verticalfarms? Or is it, is it numerous
people?
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Typically what you look at in terms of the labor
in the farm, is it about 25hours a week? So , uh, that
includes all of the, you know,cleaning, seeding,
transplanting, harvesting,things like that. Mm-Hmm .
. So all morelooking like part-time, and
then once you have multiplefarms, then you're able to kind
of build out a , a team thereto, to do all of that.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
To do all of it.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2 (29:13):
. So
if you had this modular farm,
are you able to grow variousdifferent products? So we
talked about some of the leafygreens, but would you be able
to also have say a portion ofit that's strawberries
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And not strawberries specifically, just because it
has, it's a different method.
So it's, it's like a guttersystem with a different , um,
substrate we call it, anddifferent lighting. Okay .
However , in the type ofgrowing of, let's say leafy
greens, you wanna grow lettuce,spinach, arugula, those types
of things, you can grow, be inthe one unit. Yeah. The way
(29:50):
that we optimize it is the bestneutral for all of those
different types of, of things.
Um, but then some of ourfarmers, like , uh, nipping
First Nation, they havemultiple farms and they have
each unit's dialed in for aspecific crop. So let's say in
one farm they do a spinach,more like cold weather crops,
and another it's all lettuce,so it might be a few degrees
(30:10):
warmer. So different thingslike that where you're honing
in some, some key , uh,variables, but with something
like , uh, strawberries, thatwould be a little bit more
difficult.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah. So, so now how much food does one of these
containers actually produce?
Like, is it , is it enough forhow many people? I don't even
know.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Yeah, it's, so it depends on how many farms you
have, but let's, if we go downat its core one farm, you are
looking at about 800 to 900heads of produce per week. Wow
. So, wow . Typically we lookat that would , if you're
looking at one piece of produceper person or serving, that's
about 2000 to 3000 people,let's say. But if we look at it
(30:54):
and ified in a differentperspective, let's say you have
a CSA box where you're having afew different types of crops
within that, then you'relooking, let's say
approximately 115 to 120 boxesper week. So one of our farm
partners , uh, at ulteriorschool, I should say, they're
in Alberta and they're , um,agriculture school where the
(31:15):
kids learn about , uh, raising, uh, sheep and cattle and they
have bees as well. And , andthey also , uh, do this type of
farming. And so they have, theynot just grow it, they also
sell it. So they have a CSA boxin their community. So this is
, um, maybe a good way of , uh,visualizing what that looks
like , um, in terms ofsupporting their town in , uh,
(31:37):
in Alberta.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I do believe that fundamentally changes your
mindset about food when youhave the opportunity to grow
it, right? Like, it, it justMm-Hmm , it
provides an experience thatreally is priceless. Right?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
A hundred percent .
It's a hands-on experience thatyou wouldn't otherwise get,
except if you were maybe in afarming family.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I , I wanna say thank you very much Alita , for
being part of the podcast today. It really was super
interesting and, and great forour listeners to understand a
little bit more about verticalfarming. So thank you very
much.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Well , thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I want to thank you for taking the time to listen
to our Ask a Farmer podcast. Weat Canadian Food Focus value
the input from our listenersand ask that you share the
podcast with your friends andfamily. Remember, this is a
two-Way street, so we seek yourinput for future segments that
are of interest to you aboutfood and farming. To do this,
(32:40):
please click on the Ask us iconat the top of our website,
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follow our numerous socialmedia links and sign up for our
newsletter. This segment wasproduced and edited by Angela
Larson, research and Writing byDorothy Long and Penny Eaton .
Speaker 2 (00:07):
From Canadian Food Focus. This is Ask a Farmer.
I'm your host Clinton Manuk . ASaskatchewan farmer. In this
podcast, we talk to foodexperts to answer your
questions about your food.
(00:27):
Welcome to the podcast,everybody. Today we're gonna be
talking about vertical farming.
So, as a farmer, some of thebiggest risks that I deal with
every year are related to theweather. We have so much
uncertainty when it comes torain and heat and frost wind.
Heck, we even have tornadoesthat rip through our place. So
there's a lot of disasters thatcan happen as a result of the
(00:51):
weather, and this ends upcausing a lot of sleepless
nights for us as farmers andranchers trying to make sure
that we can grow the food thatwe provide to Canadians and
people throughout the world.
Now, what if we could take thebiggest risk of farming out of
the equation? Vertical farminghas been developed throughout
Canada as a way to reduce someof these food risks and provide
(01:13):
localized food options forcertain food products. Today we
have Alita Burke with us fromGrocer, which is a Canadian
startup modular verticalfarming company, and she's
gonna explain a little bit moreabout how vertical farming fits
into our food system. How areyou doing today, Alita ?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Not too bad, but I'm excited to be here,
Speaker 2 (01:33):
That's, it's great to have you on. Maybe explain
some of your background and,and , uh, how you got to where
you are today.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Uh , my name is Alita Burke . I'm the
co-founder and CFO here atGrocer . Uh, born and raised in
the Ottawa area, and ultimatelywhere grocer got its start ,
uh, my , uh, business partnerand I were studying at the
University of Ottawa , uh,specifically in business and in
social enterprise. So lookingat how you can intersect
(02:00):
business , uh, environment andsocial considerations into
building , uh, a business. Andso while we were at the
University of Ottawa, we werefortunate enough to go up to
Northern Canada for the firsttime and have that very common
sticker shock experience wherefood prices are , are quite
high and it spurred us to wantto do something about it. So
(02:21):
that's was about eight or nineyears ago now. Wow . And , uh,
from there, we've kind of justbeen building grocer ever
since. Um, and supportingfarmers and new farmers across
Canada to be able to grow foodlocally in their communities.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Vertical farming, it's a little different. It's
pretty new. You , do you wannajust walk us through what
vertical farming is and, and ,uh, you know, just some of the
things around that and, andeven maybe some of the
differences between say what avertical farm is and what a
modular farm is.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yes, for sure. It's definitely a great question,
and one , we get a lot .
Vertical farming is almost anall encompassing term to talk
about indoor growing in acontrolled environment setting.
And the vertical usuallyreferences vertical stacks,
let's say. You can see this ina warehouse farm, usually in
larger cities in Canada , uh,or in what we do , uh, here at
(03:12):
Grocer, which we use the termmodular farming, but that's
mostly in the sense that ourcontainers are modular, so you
kind of inter , uh, plug themin and can move them and things
like that. But in its core,it's still vertical farming.
Now you also will use termslike hydroponic farming or
aeroponics. And so verticalfarming, you can use those
(03:36):
different types of methods,which is more so how you farm.
So hydroponics, you're growingfood without soil, and it's
typically , uh, using water asits main medium to grow the
plants. Aeroponics, it's, it'sslightly different in that it's
usually suspended in air andit's kind of water pellets
going to the, to the plants ,uh, is a bit of a different
(03:57):
approach. Um , but then you canalso use hydroponic farming,
you'll see typically ingreenhouses as well, where that
doesn't encompass verticalfarming. So vertical usually is
indoors controlled. And inthose typical stacks,
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Do you wanna just walk through, like, what are
some of those foods that wouldactually be supplied through
these vertical farms , uh, inan effort to feed people in
downtown Calgary or downtownwherever?
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Yeah. No, it's , it's a great question because
that's how we also gotintroduced to this concept of
hydroponic vertical farmingwas, you know, we weren't
farmers ourselves originally.
We were more interested in ,um, the social and the business
aspect , uh, pertaining togrowing. And so at its core,
(04:43):
why it was interesting to uswas in this Canadian landscape,
you can't grow year round inmany places across Canada. And
so hydroponics can be used and,and vertical farming can be
used to grow a variety ofdifferent types of crops. But
typically what you'll see areleafy greens as the staple
crop. And usually that isbecause it is a quick turnover
(05:05):
crop, so you can grow it muchmore quickly in an , a vertical
or hydroponic farming methodthan you could in that
traditional soil-based method.
So you're looking at usuallyfrom seed to harvest of about
six weeks or so. Oh, wow. Um,and other types of leafy green
adjacent , um, things, so let'scalled spinach arugula, and
then you go into your herbs aswell. Your , um, mint your
(05:28):
basil Mm-Hmm .
can grow other crops as well.
Like , uh, there's a lot of ,um, development being done for
strawberries and how you can dothat in a economically viable
way in a fully indoor setting.
But you'll see the staple cropsbeing lettuce and leafy greens
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You mentioned. Uh , really it takes away some of
that need to especially importsome of these products during
the wintertime, typically fromCalifornia, but also say Mexico
or, or Central America, whichthen, you know, obviously you
have that transportation comingin and, and I think there's
just a heightened level of justawareness, right. That with
(06:06):
some of the transportation thattakes place with some of our
products. But I do have to ask,I actually have spinach every
day and I love my strawberries.
Is there a difference in thetaste of this? Like, is it
different when you're growingthis where it's on artificial
light versus natural light? I,I don't know if it is. Or with
the soils or, you know ,hydroponics or aero products
(06:30):
with something that brand new.
I never even heard of thatuntil you mention it. So , um,
is , is there any difference, Iassume that you've tasted quite
a few of these differentproducts, right?
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Mm-Hmm,
personally, and I might beslightly biased in this
instance, I thinkhydroponically grown produce
usually there's definitely adifference in quality, which
impacts that taste. You know,like if we call it from a
research perspective, there'sno specific difference that we
would see in terms of nutrientlevels, but you're definitely
(07:02):
touching on things likequality, right? You are able to
harvest it much closer to whenit would actually end up on
store shelves or on your plateright . Uh , at home. And then
you're also growing typically adifferent variety of, of , uh,
lettuce or other types of leafygreen , um, things that you
wouldn't typically see comingfrom California. So typically
(07:23):
that is that romaine hearts andthings like that, that you
would see at the grocery store.
Whereas different types ofthings that, that a lot of our
farmers grow are , let's saybutter crunch lettuces at its
core there. I think it's justan interesting taste because
it's not typically what youwould see at the grocery store.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah. I I've never actually heard you said butter
lettuce?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yeah. Butter crunch . Butter
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Crunch lettuce butter. You gotta tell me
what's butter crunch lettuce? Inot , 'cause I want to find
this
Speaker 3 (07:50):
If you look at it and it's in your hand, let's
say it kind of almost lookslike a flour . It has Wow . Um,
a softer, and that's why it'sreferenced as butter. Butter ,
yeah . Head or butter crunch,let's call it, is because it
has almost like a butter, likeconsistency is what it's
referred to. So it's, it's,yeah, it's just a , a , a
tastier product and it's onethat I , almost all of our
(08:14):
clients are growing because ,uh, people love to eat it.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like it would be
nutrient dense too, if it'ssomething like that too . But
from your point of view, what,why is there maybe a stronger
push towards this now thanthere has been in the past? And
just interesting to hear yourinsight on that.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
What we've seen here in Canada , uh, there's a few
key reasons. The first has beenthat year round availability.
We work with a lot of clientsthat are in remote places in
Canada, or, you know, are lessaccessible. And especially over
the last few years with thechallenges with supply and
(08:56):
getting things to the end,consumer has definitely rattled
what we would say is the normand what you can rely upon on a
consistent basis. So havingsomething that is local that
you can understand and knowthat there's a consistent
supply and that it's, you know,meters from, let's say the
grocery store or the endconsumer is a big pull ,
(09:20):
especially in the wanting toknow where your food comes
from. And that local foodmovement has been a massive
driver over the last few yearsto bring it back to that
neighborhood level. The secondone is also transportation
costs. Uh , and I think youtouched on this, I believe it's
about 90% of our lettuce isimported and you mostly from
California and Mexico. And soby the time it reaches store
(09:45):
shelves , uh, the qualitysometimes is just not quite up
to par , uh, or what we would,would like to see. So a lot of
, um, our, our clients aregrowing steps away from where
the client can kind of pick itup and, and bring it home. So
for example, the Muskoka , uh,good Foods co-op, they're in
(10:05):
the Muskoka region of Ontario,and they have a farm just steps
outside of their cooperativestore. And so they've replaced
all of the lettuce that theywould typically have on the
store shelves for folks comingthrough town , um, is now grown
in their parking lot, andthey're able to bring down
their, their price that theycan offer because that
transportation cost is gone. Soit's things like that that
(10:28):
we've seen consistently beingsome of those key drivers. Um,
in terms of reliability,transportation and , and
quality. A few otherconsiderations that I didn't
touch on would also be yieldand water consumption. The
first, and one of the importantfactors with growing indoors,
in particular with hydroponicfarming is around water
(10:49):
consumption. So typically ifyou're comparing the output of,
let's say, lettuce in ahydroponic farm compared to ,
uh, growing in soil, you'reusing about 90 to 95% less
water Wow. Than you wouldtypically use. So it's a big
factor, especially where waterscarcity is an issue. Mm-Hmm.
(11:09):
proliferation of these types offarms because of water being a
major constraint and growing.
Uh, the other one is yield. Sofor our farm footprint, you're
looking at the , the 40 pipe ,10 structure. You're looking at
typically about 800 to 900heads a week , uh, is what you
(11:30):
can produce depending on yourcrop variety heads , heads of
lettuce, right? Heads oflettuce, let's call it. Um , if
you're looking at herbs, the ,it's a little bit different,
but right . Let's call it headsof lettuce. So from seed to
harvest , you're typicallylooking at about six weeks ,
which is about 30 to 50% fasterthan what you would have in ,
(11:51):
in , it's one of the keyfactors is why you see those
types of crops more commonly ina hydroponic farm is just
because you can produce themreally well in, in that type of
environment. And , um, and animportant factor with
hydroponic farming in , ingeneral is just the efficiency
of space in what you'regrowing.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Would it be kind of the same if, if I go and I
think of our garden on the farmand we have, you know, lettuce
and cucumbers and stuff likethat, the things that you could
go grow in this kind of asituation and for whatever
reason, when you have thatability to let it ripen just a
little bit more, and I don'tknow what the scientific how
much more, but when you havethe ability to let that ripen a
(12:32):
little bit more and then, youknow, take a bite of that, you
know, lettuce or a cucumber orwhatever it is that day , there
is a little bit of a different,I don't know if it's more your
mind than anything, but it doestaste different, right? So, so
for example, that cooperativeand Muskoka, like, are they
finding that it actually tastesfrom their perspective better,
(12:52):
even though nutritionally it'sthe same?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
That's something that I receive constantly as
that feedback. I know my momtells me that all the time.
She's like, I don't wanna buygrocery store lettuce, I want
lettuce from you. So it's, it'ssomething about it where I ,
the quality, and maybe that'smom speaking, but
I think, I think it'sdefinitely a big one for the
Muskoka store. They, theyharvest on a specific day. I
(13:16):
think it's Wednesday orThursday, and then by Saturday
it's all sold. Wow . It's, Ithink there's definitely
something about the , theproduct itself, whether it's
just the varieties that theycan grow and, and, and
inherently maybe it's thevarieties that are, have a
different taste. Mm-Hmm .
that all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You have some great videos on YouTube and, and I, I
watch some of them. It'sinteresting how you control
some of the, the aspects of,say, pests that I would have to
deal with on my farm. Right? SoI obviously it's not a
controlled environment, soyou're gonna have bugs, you're
gonna have weeds, you're gonnahave diseases and stuff like
that. But your system,obviously it's different,
(13:55):
right? Because you have a, a ,it's a modular type of a
system. Do you wanna explain alittle bit how you control that
environment to make sure youlimit the introduction of
different pests, but, but evenat that, like what do you do on
that biosecurity side to makesure Mm-Hmm .
that things are staying totheir, their optimum condition.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
If you imagine what our type of technology looks
like, it's a 40 foot shippingcontainer , uh, esque style.
Now it's structurally insulatedpanels , uh, building 40 by 10.
At its core. The, the best partis it's an enclosed system ,
uh, where, you know, you don'thave, like you said, an open
crop sort of situation. So thatis good at keeping bugs out.
(14:37):
Now, the key factor is makingsure that you don't bring bugs
in to keep it so that it's anice controlled environment for
the plants to grow. So the bigones are the physical barriers,
so maintaining a positivepressure sort of environment so
that when you're coming in,there's , um, also an air
curtain and some physicalcontrols to make sure as much
(14:58):
as possible can keep goodpractices. The second piece is
a lot of maintenance andcleaning, like the majority of
the time you spend in the farmis actually cleaning and making
sure it's a , as, as cleaningcleanup as an environment as
possible for the plants togrow, then actually harvesting
or some of those other tasksthat are typically done. And
then we also, some clientstypically might use some of
(15:20):
those biological controlproducts as well. Um, whether
that be beneficial predatorsthat will , um, eat the bad
things in the farm , let's sayif , if you got aphids or if
you had other sort of issueslike that. Uh, those are some
of the key factors, but it'sdefinitely all in the controls
so that as much as possible,you don't bring anything in,
(15:40):
but when you do, you can, youknow, pest scout and have those
key procedures to make surethat you're, you're maintaining
your environment as, as cleanas possible so that they don't
, uh, proliferate.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah. Which is , which is great because, and
again, because it's acontrolled environment, it's a
little easier to introduce someof those things to take care of
other bad things that, thatmight have come in. Mm-Hmm.
benefits around the verticalfarms. Do you wanna talk about,
you know, how you see some ofthe technology changing in the
(16:11):
future because it's, it's everimproving, right? And , and I
see it on our farm too, right ?
Technology always gets betterand better over time, but what
do you see as some of those newleaps that are coming forward
around vertical farming , uh,going into the future?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
That's a great question. I think there's a,
there's two key avenues that Isee , uh, coming up again and
again. One is in terms of whatyou can grow in an indoor , uh,
environment that is meetingwhere the industry is at in
terms of price point and thingslike that. So a lot of movement
being done in strawberryproduction , uh, in terms of
(16:48):
how you can grow strawberriesindoors year round , especially
in a place like Canada wherethat's just not possible. Uh ,
and, and other berries for thatmatter. Mm-hmm .
, um, indoors. Now there's moretechnical considerations for
growing strawberries becausethey're a reproductive plant.
And so there's pollination andother key variables that you
don't need in a , a lettucefarm, let's call it. Right? Um
(17:12):
, and other types of crops likethat. So strawberries,
cucumbers, peppers, things likethat think are at the forefront
of, of what can be grown on anongoing basis. And then the
second is, yeah, where doesautomation play in a vertical
farm? So for something likeours where the footprint is
quite, is relatively small atthis point in time, full
(17:35):
automation doesn't make sense.
It's too costly. But in some ofthese warehouse farms, you see
more automation coming throughand how can you throw AI or
robotics or other kind offactors into the mix to make it
so that ultimately , uh, you'remore efficient and can provide
a lower cost product to the endconsumer. Um, but I think
(17:56):
there's definitely, at leastfrom our perspective, because
we look at a , a smallerfootprint, that is still always
a way in terms of , um,something that makes sense for
what we do. Mm-Hmm .
I see in the vertical farmingindustry as a whole.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
So this leads us perfectly into the fun farm
fact for the , uh, podcasttoday. Did you know that the
first ever hands-free verticalfarm opened in British
Columbia, March of 2023? Ituses touchless technology from
seeding right through toharvest. And this was taken
from Bennett Jones , uh, herein 2024 when they did a little
(18:38):
bit of a report on that. Andit's interesting because you
made the comment that thetechnology is getting better,
but it doesn't make a lot ofeconomic sense. So this, and ,
and similar to what we see witha lot of technologies ,
something comes out , um, it'sreally interesting, but doesn't
necessarily make economic senseuntil you kind of fine tune it
and maybe some other companiescome in and and provide that
(18:59):
service. Is that where youthink that might be an option
later on in the future too for,for yourselves?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
For sure. With Warehouse Farms, it makes a lot
of sense because you're justdealing with a sheer amount of
volume and , uh, square footagewhere you're able to kind of
have that automation workreally, really well. I think
for us, we'll find probably ahybrid approach where you're
finding some ways to automatecertain processes in a small
(19:26):
environment or , uh, you thenbuild up your processing
capacity of let's say multiplefarms going into one processing
space that then has thosepieces in there where you can
bring that volume together tomake it make sense. So
definitely we'll see that inthe future 100% as , uh, as it
evolves and grows for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Now we wanna understand a little bit more
about grocer. And again, Iwatched the videos. I really
feel that this is a trulyunique company that you have
and it offers a solution tosome food insecurity. But I
want you to explain exactly howyou develop this to all our
listeners so they can kind ofunderstand a little bit more
about who Grocer is and, andreally what some of that target
(20:07):
audience you're trying to getto is.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Mm-Hmm .
actually more of a schoolinitiative than anything else
while we were at the Universityof Ottawa learning and
implementing social enterpriseconsiderations and , and facets
into, into business. Uh, and Ithink we see that more and more
now, and , and it's is anatural fit in agriculture too,
(20:32):
in terms of how can you findways , uh, from the
environmental perspective andsocial perspective and how it
all fits together. We weren'tfarmers to begin with. Uh, so
it was definitely a big, biglearning curve. Uh, we got our
first few farms. The first onewas in Churchill, Manitoba,
where we had a great partnerwith the Churchill Northern
(20:52):
Study Center to , uh, support ,uh, the , the first of this
type of farm in Canada to growyear round at least one our
first of ours, I should say.
And so that was a reallypivotal point for us to see
what worked, what didn't work,and continue to iterate on that
type of technology on anongoing basis. A lot of it is
the inherent knowledge andprocess around growing in this
(21:15):
type of technology on anongoing basis. So that comes
with experience and, andlearning. So from then, you
know, we've a network of justover 80 farms across Canada.
They collectively grow about 10million servings of vegetables
every year, which is reallygreat to see and is really
comes down to that communitylevel too, of supporting local
(21:38):
key initiatives, whether ofcourse, the, the growing aspect
is key, but then there's theother facets that come with
that, where it's local jobcreation , uh, local health
facets, if there's certain keyissues that you're looking to
target that this can kind ofplay an important part in. So
as you've probably experiencedwith your farm, it's , it's
kind of brings people totogether. It's that community
(21:59):
aspect that , um, your farmsupports. So it's those key
facets that are, are so , uh,impactful and that really kind
of gets us up and going in themorning. But to go back to, I
guess that evolutionary processis , is really how it, it's ,
we, we went through it is , isa lot of learning as we are
going over year over year withFarm Over Farm is perfecting
(22:22):
that , um, key operation to, tomake sure people are, are
successful.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
If I understand correctly, like the , the, what
tweaked your interest is whenyou went into a northern
community where, you know,growing food is very limited,
if at all in some of thesecommunities. So is that how you
felt that there was this need,that desire for some of these
communities to actually havethe option to get fresh local
produced food?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, a hundred percent . It was originally we
thought, oh, maybe we can starta project where we , uh, work
with a local community to , uh,grow food year round . Uh, and
as we went through the process,we realized there wasn't a
solution , uh, that we couldtap into that we could do it
right away. So we kind of builtthe business that we had wished
(23:11):
there was eight years ago withthe support of, of communities
that wanted to do thisthemselves. A big topic and a
big theme that we've seen overthe last , uh, eight years has
been around food sovereignty.
How can we create a resilientlocal food system that , uh, is
not a hundred percent relianton, on long supply chains , uh,
(23:31):
supply chains that can bedisrupted? And interestingly,
over the last few years, we'veseen that sentiment and that
that local food movement growconsistently in the people that
we speak to is as a key factorand a , a very important one ,
um, to make sure that they canrely on something that's local
(23:51):
and then that they can kind ofgrow and maintain themselves.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So you were on Dragon's Den, but just touch on
your experience about thisbecause it truly is interesting
that entrepreneurial , uh,nature of this to, to try and
go forward and, and maybe justgive the listeners a little bit
of a background on that.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yes. We filmed back in 2018 and it was a really
great experience. Uh , a littlebehind the scenes is you
typically, they'll go to cityto city to , uh, you do your
pitch basically to see if theywill bring you to Toronto to do
the full fledged filming indowntown CBC headquarters. And
(24:29):
, uh, we were fortunate enoughto be able to move on to that
process and we officially airedin early 2019. We had a really,
yeah , great experience. Theonly thing that kind of was a
wrench in our plans was theywanted something visual that
you could kind of see and , andtouch and feel what it is that
you do. So we thought, okay,we'll bring a full rack of ,
(24:49):
uh, produce that we weregrowing in Ottawa and have it
on site and on set . Verydifficult to bring that
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I can imagine from
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Ottawa to Trump .
And we had some high ambitions.
And then what we learned wasthat you can't have any water
on set, which is a challengewhen you're growing
hydroponically where it's allwater, all water. So all the
plants died overnight beforefilm the next day,
But they did their creativemagic. So you can't, you can
tell if you are lookingclosely, but uh, they got some
(25:18):
good shots to kind of make sureyou don't really see that they
did not last and , and , uh,had a bit of a challenging
onscreen debut, but , uh, butit was a really great
experience and they were allvery kind and, you know,
supportive for that next, youknow, generation of Canadian
entrepreneurs, I guess youcould say. So , um, really
(25:38):
great experience and they've ,and for us , uh, we see it come
back every once in a while,whether it's reruns or it used
to be on some streamingservices, and it's a great way
for people to kind of getintroduced to what we do. We've
got a few farmers that camethrough that channel, and then
a lot of people who areinterested in this type of
technology who might wanna workfor grocers. So, oh , wow .
It's a thing I hear a lot is Isaw your episode on Dragon
(26:02):
Stand and x, y , Z, so it'sbeen a , a really fruitful
thing that , uh, has paiddividends over the last few
years.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
It's a feel good story, right? Because you've,
you , you're trying to kind ofhelp some of those communities
that , that maybe like we said,don't necessarily have access
to the, the fresh food all thetime. Do you feel this is one
of those solutions that we needto really , uh, hone in on to
allow the communities toactually have access to some of
(26:28):
these nutrient dense and , and, uh, good food that's grown
locally?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
For sure. I think for us, our main goal and
mission is to create some localresilient food networks,
especially in areas wherethat's just not possible. And
so where we started, and a lotof the folks that we've, we've
supported over the years hasbeen in those remote and many,
in many places, indigenouscommunities where there just
(26:55):
isn't an option to grow yearround and, and a lot of want
and, and , uh, intent to buildsomething that's local so that
they can rely on that yearround . Over the past eight or
so years though, you know,we've seen that diversify too
in terms of , uh, a lot of ourclientele are food cooperative
stores that are looking to havea local option that they can
(27:16):
have for their, you know, havea quality product on the store
shelves, especially in WesternCanada. We see, we see that a
lot. And then farmers who arelooking to diversify, we see
that too , uh, in more insouthern Canada where let's say
they might be a dairy farm andare looking to grow crops as
well. So definitely a , astrong tool in the tool chest,
I guess you could call it. Yeah. To complement and further
(27:39):
strengthen, especially in thesetypes of crops where, you know
, um, otherwise it would haveto be I imported . So
definitely I think could be areally key facet as we continue
to have, you know, climateshifts and challenges and
reliability for year-roundgrowing. I think this plays an
important part in that.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
How many do you have? I think you mentioned it
before, but it , there's howmany?
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, we're just over 80 farms across town .
Speaker 2 (28:05):
80 , 80 farms. Wow.
So in terms of grocer, what,what do you consider one farm
to be? Is that like onecontainer, is it multiple
containers? How do you kind oftalk about that with one of
your farms?
Speaker 3 (28:16):
We typically call one container, one farm, and
then once we look at multiplefarms, we usually call that a
farm plex. So , uh, three farm, farm plex, let's call it, is,
is something where it's a bitof a bigger footprint. But
yeah, one, one farm is, is ,uh, what we would call it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And again, my mind always goes through the , the
process that I have to gothrough and the labor that I
have to find for my own farm indifferent seasons. But does it
take one full-time person or isit a part-time person to run
one of your module verticalfarms? Or is it, is it numerous
people?
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Typically what you look at in terms of the labor
in the farm, is it about 25hours a week? So , uh, that
includes all of the, you know,cleaning, seeding,
transplanting, harvesting,things like that. Mm-Hmm .
then once you have multiplefarms, then you're able to kind
of build out a , a team thereto, to do all of that.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
To do all of it.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Mm-Hmm .
Speaker 2 (29:13):
are you able to grow variousdifferent products? So we
talked about some of the leafygreens, but would you be able
to also have say a portion ofit that's strawberries
Speaker 3 (29:28):
And not strawberries specifically, just because it
has, it's a different method.
So it's, it's like a guttersystem with a different , um,
substrate we call it, anddifferent lighting. Okay .
However , in the type ofgrowing of, let's say leafy
greens, you wanna grow lettuce,spinach, arugula, those types
of things, you can grow, be inthe one unit. Yeah. The way
(29:50):
that we optimize it is the bestneutral for all of those
different types of, of things.
Um, but then some of ourfarmers, like , uh, nipping
First Nation, they havemultiple farms and they have
each unit's dialed in for aspecific crop. So let's say in
one farm they do a spinach,more like cold weather crops,
and another it's all lettuce,so it might be a few degrees
(30:10):
warmer. So different thingslike that where you're honing
in some, some key , uh,variables, but with something
like , uh, strawberries, thatwould be a little bit more
difficult.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah. So, so now how much food does one of these
containers actually produce?
Like, is it , is it enough forhow many people? I don't even
know.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Yeah, it's, so it depends on how many farms you
have, but let's, if we go downat its core one farm, you are
looking at about 800 to 900heads of produce per week. Wow
. So, wow . Typically we lookat that would , if you're
looking at one piece of produceper person or serving, that's
about 2000 to 3000 people,let's say. But if we look at it
(30:54):
and ified in a differentperspective, let's say you have
a CSA box where you're having afew different types of crops
within that, then you'relooking, let's say
approximately 115 to 120 boxesper week. So one of our farm
partners , uh, at ulteriorschool, I should say, they're
in Alberta and they're , um,agriculture school where the
(31:15):
kids learn about , uh, raising, uh, sheep and cattle and they
have bees as well. And , andthey also , uh, do this type of
farming. And so they have, theynot just grow it, they also
sell it. So they have a CSA boxin their community. So this is
, um, maybe a good way of , uh,visualizing what that looks
like , um, in terms ofsupporting their town in , uh,
(31:37):
in Alberta.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I do believe that fundamentally changes your
mindset about food when youhave the opportunity to grow
it, right? Like, it, it justMm-Hmm ,
provides an experience thatreally is priceless. Right?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
A hundred percent .
It's a hands-on experience thatyou wouldn't otherwise get,
except if you were maybe in afarming family.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I , I wanna say thank you very much Alita , for
being part of the podcast today. It really was super
interesting and, and great forour listeners to understand a
little bit more about verticalfarming. So thank you very
much.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Well , thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
I want to thank you for taking the time to listen
to our Ask a Farmer podcast. Weat Canadian Food Focus value
the input from our listenersand ask that you share the
podcast with your friends andfamily. Remember, this is a
two-Way street, so we seek yourinput for future segments that
are of interest to you aboutfood and farming. To do this,
(32:40):
please click on the Ask us iconat the top of our website,
canadian food focus.org . Whileyou're there, feel free to
follow our numerous socialmedia links and sign up for our
newsletter. This segment wasproduced and edited by Angela
Larson, research and Writing byDorothy Long and Penny Eaton .
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