In this conversation, Buck Angel shares his experiences as a transgender male, discussing the complexities of gender dysphoria, particularly in children and adolescents. He emphasizes the need for open conversations about transgender issues and the critical role of mental health care in understanding and supporting individuals with gender dysphoria. He emphasizes the potential dangers of rushing into medical transitions, and the need for comprehensive support for both parents and children.
Dr Jessica Hochman is a board certified pediatrician, mom to three children, and she is very passionate about the health and well being of children. Most of her educational videos are targeted towards general pediatric topics and presented in an easy to understand manner.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Hi everybody. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman, pediatrician
(00:01):
and mom of three. On thispodcast, I like to talk about
various pediatric health topics,sharing my knowledge, not only
as a doctor, but also as aparent. Ultimately, my
hope is that when it comes toyour children's health,
you feel more confident, worryless, and enjoy your parenting
experience as much as possible.
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(00:22):
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visit tinyhealth.com today, it'squick, easy and packed with
actionable insights. Bucha, I amso happy to have you on the
(01:07):
podcast. Thank you so much fortaking the time to be here.
Oh, you're so sweet, Jessica,thank you. Or can I call you Dr,
Jessica,you can call me anything you
want.
No thanks. It really means a lotto me that you're wanting to
have a conversation today,people don't necessarily want to
have what we probably might,what people consider a difficult
conversation. But you know, itdoes mean a lot to me. It means
(01:30):
you care. And I remember thefirst time I met you, I just saw
that caring person that youwere, and you came up to me and
you were so, like, excited tomeet me, which was kind of
funny, but you were just soawesome. And so, you know,
saying so many beautiful thingsto me. So I just want to thank
you for seeing me. It means alot.
Thank you so much. Well, I meaneverything I say, I don't
remember exactly what I said,but I do remember being very
(01:53):
excited to meet you, and I'mjust so appreciative, because I
know this conversation, or thistopic of conversation, has
become a difficult one forsociety to have, I feel like in
an open, honest way, and I knowyou have your your story, and
other people have their stories,but I thought it would be
helpful for my audience to hearan open conversation about what
(02:14):
it's like to be a trans male andabout your experience. And I'm
so grateful that you've acceptedthe invitation to be here today
and to talk about it. Thankyou. Yeah, no, you know a lot of
trans male, female to male, wedon't have a large voice out
there, and I think it'simportant that we start to speak
up. And I encourage a lot moretrans men like myself to start
(02:35):
to have the conversation,because my experience is
completely different than a manwho becomes a woman. If that
makes sense, most of the dialogis coming from men becoming
women. That'sreally interesting, because I
know a lot of times we tend togroup things, and we put
everything into one category. SoI appreciate so we'll be hearing
from your perspective as someonewho was born as a biologic
(02:57):
female, and your experience asnow living as a trans male,
that's right. And the reason whyI'm so happy to talk to you is I
feel like we live in a societywhere everybody wants to be
loving and accepting, but it'sbecome sort of taboo to ask
questions, yeah, and so Iappreciate that you allow that
space. So I just want to askquestions that I think are on
(03:19):
parents minds, but they may beafraid to ask out loud, great.
So the first is, can you explainwhat your experience was as a
child? Like, what? What was yourexperience feeling gender
dysphoria? And what is genderdysphoria? Exactly?
So great question. And to allthe parents and people who are
concerned, thanks for listeningto me, because I do first want
(03:40):
to say that these kind ofconversations are so important.
I transitioned 32 years ago, sothat being said, you have to get
different perspectives. Youcan't just listen to one side of
the story, and I believe that'swith anything, right, but
specifically when it deals withtheir child. And I will tell you
that I think a lot of theinformation is one sided, and a
lot of the information tends notto give you, you know, the whole
(04:03):
idea of what it really means tobe trans or and that with a
child. So, so gender dysphoriais the feeling of not fitting
your gender assign, you know,and this assigned at birth. I
was not assigned female. I wasborn a female. You know, it's
really important that weunderstand these terminologies,
and when they start to changethese terminologies, it starts
(04:24):
to put a different mindset withyou. And that's dangerous to me.
You can never forget that yourchild is born male and female,
unless they're intersex, whichis a very, very small part of
this situation. But every personis born pretty much male or
female. They are not assignedanything. That's very important
with what I'm going to tell you.
So I was born female, and what Ididn't feel like, my gender
(04:46):
dysphoria made me feel like Iwanted to be a boy, and that's
what kids do, right? I think Iwas pretty much a tomboy,
really. My parents were supercool. I'm 62 and my parents were
pretty much just let me be thattomboy, right? I had a boy name
and round her. Around, but Ialways kind of had to go back
and forth between that and thegirl name. I had distress. There
was no doubt about it, but Iwould tell you that I'm not sure
(05:06):
if the distress was just genderdysphoria, because as I grew up,
I started to more become more apart of my sexuality, and I
started becoming attracted togirls and not boys, and it was
more sexually. It wasn't so muchthat I wanted to be a boy. I was
more sexually, if that makessense, attracted to wanting to
be with girls, which I thoughtmeant I needed to be a boy. So I
(05:28):
didn't know about being gay inthe 60s and 70s. So So could
that have been part of it? Yousee how what I'm trying to say
here is there's a lot ofvariables happening with kids
and So, long story short, Ieventually became a gay woman,
and I eventually struggled withmy stuff, and I dealt with
alcoholism and drug addictionand all of the things that
(05:49):
people just deal with. A lot oftimes. I went to a lot of
therapy back in the day. Nobodyknew any of that. So I guess
what I'm trying to say here isthat, as a parent, for sure,
watch your kids and see what'sgoing on. But I don't think the
information is there enough tosay that you can hard wire a
child at 10 years old, right? Ifmy parents would have hardwired
(06:12):
me at 10 and didn't let me gothrough all the growth I did
until 30, I think that wouldhave been a huge mistake. So I
don't think I was an actualtrans kid. I think I was a
kid. Does that make sense?
No, it does make sense. And I'mI'm so grateful that your
parents were so supportive.
I'm at my parents house rightnow in Palm Springs, and they're
(06:34):
super awesome, and I have agreat relationship with them
that I had to rebuild afteryears of not being a good kid
and struggling and doing that,but you know, as a grown up and
somebody who really feels sohappy that I made it through to
the other side, families arevery important to me, and one of
the other things I see in thisnewer trans space is they really
try to disconnect young peoplefrom their families, which is
(06:56):
scary to me, and that that isnot part of being trans, that's
something else when you start todisconnect a child from their
family.
So a question that I have, andyou may not have an answer,
because I realize thateverybody's experiences are
different. Yeah, but when I wasin medical school, back in 2007
I worked with a doctor named Drnorm Spack, and he ended up
(07:17):
actually having the firsttransgender clinic in the United
States. This was in Boston,okay? And that was my first
experience working with thetrans community, yeah. And he
told me that he was gettingcalls from families all over the
country and in differentcountries where they had little
kids that knew they were, thatfelt they were a different
gender than that they were born,and they were coming to him for
(07:39):
advice. And he told me that whenkids are little and they feel
that they are a differentgender, it's best to transition
them in childhood so that theydon't grow up feeling
uncomfortable. So he taught methat for kids that know from an
early age it's gonna stick, weneed to support them being in
that different gender role. Andso that was my teaching from
(08:02):
early on. And I guess this iswhat's so hard, is that as a
parent, you want to besupportive of your children, but
my tendency in medicine ingeneral is I like to wait on
things I feel like, especiallyif there's potential for side
effects, it's always better towait. I guess I'm curious for
yourself as a kid, if you hadmet that doctor early on in
(08:22):
life, would that have made yourexperience better? Do you think?
No,I will tell you that right now.
And you know, I'm gonna, as yousee, I said it no before you
even finish the question,because I refuse to let people
tell me I was a trans kid. I wasnot a trans kid, okay? And I
don't like this label. I hatethat we label, label a kid gay,
label people. That's not true.
(08:44):
Kids experiment with things thatgo Now that being said, I do
think there are young people whoprobably have gender dysphoria,
who probably feel like a boy andmight or girl, and might grow up
enough to make that choice. Butit is rare. This has always been
rare, because if it was ascommon as we're trying to show
it today, why hasn't it alwaysbeen like that? Well, all of a
(09:05):
sudden, did there be such anupswing of 4,000% which is an
actual statistic, 4,000% ofyoung girls who claim to be
trans? How is that even possiblein the last five to 10 years? So
there's a lot of variables.
We're not looking at internet,peer pressure, blah, blah, blah.
Girls go through all kinds ofstuff, through through puberty,
right? We all deal with thatkind of stuff. So I'm going to
(09:28):
tell you that I believe inwatchful waiting, and number
one, number two is not todiscourage the kid and be like I
know you're not. No, no, no,it's good. You want to be Tommy.
Okay, cool. That's what myparents did you want to be Jake?
You go right ahead. You do that.
Let it out. Call me the boyname, all that kind of stuff. It
was totally fine. And they got alot of backlash for it from
(09:52):
people. That's your daughter,not your son. Back in the 70s,
imagine, so, so, so that beingsaid, I also don't believe in
Medicare. Conversation. I don'tbelieve a medicalizing a child.
I also they've done studies onsocial transitioning for young
people. It does not they willimmediate. If you social
transition a child, what happensis that child will almost 90% go
(10:15):
into cross sex hormones. Soyou're not being fair to the
child, because you're alreadypushing them into into that,
into that space. I'm a bigmental health person. I think
they should be in mental healthcare.
Okay, so you're so you're sayingthat for for children or for
yourself as a child? Yes,looking back, what would have
benefited you the most wouldhave been more mental health
support. 100% emphasis on mentalhealth support, less on thinking
(10:38):
about starting medications likepuberty blockers and
surgeries were lost. They didn'thave the information. They even
told me they were they werelike, tried so many things, and
I did become depressed and notgood and not functioning, and I
didn't graduate high school, andI was, you know, the only thing
I did good was sports. That wasthe only thing I ever did good.
I was really a high rankingfemale athlete, but I'm going to
(11:01):
tell you when I think about it,and as I write my book and as I
look at those things, I reallywant again, for you to hear me.
I was really more connected tomy sexuality. I don't think it
was so much my gender. I thinkit really was I was struggling
with my sexuality. And I reallywant people to hear this. 90% of
(11:21):
the kids who went to theTavistock clinic in the UK and
were considered trans ended upbeing homosexual kids. 90% so
that's why it's so dangerous tosort of say, Oh, well, my kid is
this way. They're trans. That'swhy I don't like labeling, right
labeling, especially in 10 or 11year olds, because, you know,
(11:42):
you're a doctor, kids grow outof things, or they experiment
with things. Or also, are wediscouraging them from maybe
experimenting with things? Whenwe say, Oh, you're trans, you're
trans at five, that they'redoing that now you're trans at
four, it'strue, I think, almost like we're
so we want to be so supportivein the name of being supportive
as parents are, our kids saythat they're something and we
(12:05):
want to we jump on it and acceptit as truth. But the truth is,
kids have vivid imaginations.
Their interests change all thetime, and especially, I think
about as you go through puberty,it's such an uncomfortable time.
The way you feel about yourbody, the way you think about
yourself is just an icky time ingeneral. And so I do feel like
(12:26):
we want to be careful not tomake changes that would
potentially be irreversible. AndI think that's where I get
nervous with the way medicine isgoing, Yeah,
and as a doctor, you should bebecause, you know, the other
thing I'll say is I'm all abouthelping these kids. I'm all
about, of course, there's goingto be a kid dealing with
dysphoria, there's going to besomebody, but it's a rare This
(12:48):
has always been rare. I don'tlike how we're making it so
common, because the thing is,this is not easy, right? This is
a commitment for life. I keeptelling everybody I committed to
this. I can't turn around and goback, look at me, right? There's
just not going to happen. Butwhat's happening is we're
presenting this as somethingthat, well, if you don't like
it, you can just stop. No, youcan't. And it absolutely is
(13:10):
disrespectful to people likemyself who actually really have
gender dysphoria, and thisreally did help me to become a
better person, right? I gotsober, I have I'm I'm have a
family, I have businesses. I ambetter than I could ever be.
Even my parents are like, whoare you? So it that's what I
want people to see. Why you'vegot to give people time to
(13:31):
figure out that, Oh, am Iwilling to make this choice that
is forever when they'reoperating on 16 year old girls
and letting them remove theirbreasts because they're trans,
we are doing a disservice tothese young people, because
what's happening now is we havea lot of these kids who are
changing their mind, right? Wedo. They're called D
transitioners. And so now, whatdo you do when you let young
girls think they're a boy andthen and they're hiding that?
(13:53):
The Trans community is hidingthat. So I'm like, do you really
care? Do you actually care?
Because if you cared, youwouldn't be hiding to de
transitioners, we would be usingthem in a way that says, Oh my
God, what are we doing wronghere? Why are we doing this to
young people?
I think what makes me nervous isthe idea that we may be rushing.
Because I actually, as apediatrician, I don't make the
(14:15):
decision on who starts hormonesand who gets surgeries, but we
refer them to gender clinics,and I've read statistics that
within a year of sending a childto a gender clinic, about 80%
may have initiated a hormone. Iread this from the there was a
clinic in Washington where thisthis was the case, that within a
year of referring a kid to thatclinic, 80% had been had
(14:39):
initiated a hormone. And thatmakes me nervous, just because I
don't think people fullyunderstand the potential side
effects that may come from thesehormones, it doesn't sit well
with me because, because I don'twant to make a mistake, you
know, and no, because, as adoctor, though the tenant is do
no harm, and so I want to makesure that we are being
supportive and loving, but all.
So looking into all the sideeffects, that's where
(15:04):
the thing is. As you say, itgets so flustered because I
care. I care enough to sit hereand say things that people don't
want to hear. That means I care.
It doesn't mean I hate and itdoesn't mean I don't want
somebody to transition. What itmeans is I want somebody to have
what I have, which has beenincredible 32 years, you can't
deny this does exist. That's whyall size people on some level
(15:24):
come at me, because I prove thatit works, but I also prove to
you that you can be a child andgo through puberty and you can't
struggle a little bit. What'sthis thing that kids can't
struggle, that I don't evenunderstand struggle is good,
because struggle does make youthink about things and this and
that I would have much rather alot of these young teenage girls
have struggled with theirdysphoria and not cut their
(15:46):
breasts off and took cross sexhormones and had hysterectomies
at 16, and now they're 20 andthey're like, whoops, I made a
mistake. This isn't a whoopsmistake, right? A whoops mistake
is cutting your hair off andgoing, lips. I should have never
done that. So medicalization issuch a very tricky thing, and it
really needs to be put in aspace of what you're saying. We
(16:10):
need to look at it. We need tohave a law. We have long term
studies on puberty blockers, onkids, and it doesn't work. Cast
report. I don't know why peoplekeep shoving the cast report
under the under the tables, asif it doesn't exist. It
literally says we did studies.
It doesn't work. Maybe it'llwork later on. We need more long
term. But the transgenderactivists call that a
(16:33):
transphobic report, which justblows my mind. I
just think that families reallyneed to understand the full
implications, because when Ihear that our interventions may
make somebody sterile, may makesomebody have a difficult time
achieving orgasm if they takepuberty blockers too too young,
that makes me nervous thatpeople aren't fully
(16:55):
understanding the potential sideeffects. And I think about it,
and I what I feel for parents isthey have a child who's
struggling, who often feelsdepressed, sad, uncomfortable in
their own skin, and I think theyget nervous that their child
will honestly have suicidalideation, hurt themselves, and
that's a big burden on a parent.
So what do you say to familiesin that situation?
(17:18):
Well, you know, if your child isis saying they want to unalive
themselves, or that that that'sa definitely a very sad and bad
space to be in. But that's whymental health care and why we
need to really start pushingthat more than medicalization,
because it's heretranssexualism, and I call it
(17:41):
transsexualism, and I don't callit transgenderism, because I
find them to be two differentspaces. At this point, I'm a
transsexual. I'm somebody whowanted to live as a man and have
what we used to call a sexchange, right? So I come from
the old school space, and I'msort of bringing that word back,
because I don't identify astrans. I identify as a man who
(18:02):
is a woman who wants to livethat way. But anyway, getting
back to that, that's why some weneed to keep it in a mental
disorder space. It is not normalfor somebody to feel this way,
and it's okay that it's notnormal. We can't shame mental
disorders. What we need to do isfigure out why somebody feels
that way. So if a kid is saying,I want to kill themselves
because I want to be a boy,okay, okay, we need to figure
(18:25):
out, why is that not give youhormones for it? Because that's
not going to alleviate what'sgoing on in the brain. It's
going to alleviate physically,maybe, what's going on. But why
does that kid feel that way? Weneed to look at that before we
say, Okay, let's start givingthem this and that, and then I
understand that, because I feltthat way. But I felt that way, I
(18:46):
think, for a lot of otherreasons, and not necessarily
because I wanted to be a boy.
There was a lot of other thingsgoing on with me, and that's
what's happening with thesekids, is we're not we're not
looking at all the other likecomorbidities or things that are
going on. We notice autism tendsnow to be a big factor with a
lot of these trans kids, right?
So why? Why is that happening?
Why are a lot of autistic kidsnow identifying as trans?
(19:11):
But can you tell me more aboutyour experience transitioning? I
know you waited until you were30 years old. In retrospect, do
you wish you had done it sooner,or do you feel like that was the
right time for you? No,and it's a great question. And
you know, if you would haveasked me that at 10, I probably
would have said, I want to be aboy. I can do it right now, of
course, right? But as a 62 yearold who struggled to get to the
(19:33):
space and has been transitionedfor such a long time, I would
say no. I would say no, it wasthe best thing I ever did was to
live some life. And you know, Ilived as a as a girl, then I
lived as a woman, then I wentthrough puberty, then I
struggled in my sexuality as ayoung teenager and up into my
young adulthood, and then Ibecame a gay woman, and then I
(19:54):
lived that lifestyle of a gaywoman for many, many years. And
you know, that was an. Excellentpart of my life. I don't ever
look at it as negative. I lovedliving in that space, and I
loved being in the gay women'sspace, but I knew something
underneath wasn't right, and sono, I would say that all of
those experiences, as you know,any experience in your life, if
(20:15):
you really look back on it,probably made you a better
person, even if it was a badexperience, I struggled with
drugs, alcohol, you know,ideate, suicidal ideation, all
of it, hospitalized. But that'spart of life, right? And so no,
I will tell you now I do notbelieve that me transitioning
earlier would have done what ithas done for me today, which is
(20:36):
all the things I have in my lifeare because of the struggle up
to the transition and makingthat choice me, my parents
didn't make the choice, right? Imade the choice so if the choice
didn't work out, I can't blamemy parents, and that's why I
also say to parents, be carefulmaking that choice for your
child, because if you make thislife changing choice for your
(20:58):
child, and they change theirmind at 20, you are going to
have to bear the brunt of thatdecision.
So I'm just so curious. Not to,you know, sorry to ask this
again, but no, it's okay. I'mjust hearing you talk about how
you went through drugs and youdid experience suicidal
ideation. There's not a piece ofyou that wishes you had
(21:19):
transitioned sooner, because,maybe because, maybe you would
have avoided all of that.
No, and I'm telling you assomeone who really thought with
it, thought sat with myself andthought of all of it, but I also
thought of all the great times Ihad. And I will tell you that I
struggled more again. Reallybelieve I struggle with my
sexuality and not with mygender. I really do believe
(21:42):
that, and I think that's wherethat was coming from, because
back in the day, couldn't be agay woman, right? And I was an
athlete, and I was sponsored byAdidas and Nike, and you didn't
talk about being gay, and youwould lose your sponsorship. And
so there was a lot of burden ofdealing with that sexuality. And
so why I say that is becausethose things were and I'm not
(22:03):
saying pseudo suicidal ideationis good. But I also want to
remind people that it's not justtrans people who have those
situations. A lot of people havethose ideations, right? Even gay
people have it. Even straightpeople have it. So the root
cause of that, we need to figureout why. And I, you know, I do
believe the root cause of all ofthat was because I wasn't really
(22:26):
being able to be myself.
Couldn't be a butch girl. Icouldn't be a butch woman. I
couldn't be that. And I don'twant anybody to feel suicidal.
That's not what I'm saying. ButI think today, we can understand
things a lot more than we could30 years ago, and why again? I
will always circle back tomental health care. I will
always circle back to thatbefore I will circle back to
drugs and hormones and pubertyblockers. Seems
(22:50):
to me that from an outsiderperspective, that there's just
not a quick fix, and I think weall wish there was a quick fix,
but it's just a difficult spaceto live in.
Yes, it's not fun. But let mealso remind you that many people
have lived with gender dysphoriaand never transitioned. They
still do. There's a lot of gaywomen I know who have dealt with
(23:10):
their gender dysphoria, and theythey just choose not to move to
this space, and they deal withit, and they feel like I want to
be a boy, I want to be a man,but I'm just not going to take
that today. I feel like peopleare being pressured into
transitioning, and that if youdon't, and I know that also
firsthand, because I haveinterviewed many D
transitioners, and mostly to bewomen, and said they felt
(23:30):
pressured by the community thatthey weren't good women, that
they were actually trans.
There's this more pressure.
Again, labels are verydangerous. I really think
they're dangerous. Now we havelabels, right? Non binary,
trans, queer, whatever. It'slike, wait a minute, why can't
you just be Jackie or Susie or,you know what I mean? I'm like,
(23:50):
maybe today you're gay, andmaybe tomorrow you're not, and
that's okay,right? There's so much emphasis
today on a child's gender, asopposed to what they're
interested in. I want to knowabout a kid. What do you like to
do outside of school? What areyour passions? And now I feel
like so much of the conversationis about their sexuality and
their gender. It'sshocking. I just interviewed an
actual 13 year old young girlwho got sucked into being trans
(24:13):
at 10, at 10 on Tiktok. Oh, myGod. The whole interview blows
my mind, and she reached out tome, which is so amazing, and she
wanted to spill the beans whenshe went on Tiktok and everyone
who told her she was trans, andshe had to separate from her
family there. I mean, it's themost horrifying story. And she
never felt suicidal ideationuntil she started to become
(24:34):
trans. So it's there's a lot ofindoctrination of some thought
process happening that I thinkis really dangerous. We need to
take this trans thing off thetable. We really do, because I
think it is pushing kids intothis idea that they have to be I
think young girls have alwaysstruggled with these
comorbidities are like, youknow, anorexia and cutting and
(24:54):
all kinds of things, right? Thisfeels like it's another one of
those things, because it reallyis predominantly with young
girls than it is with youngboys,
the element of social contagion.
Andthere you go, friend. I'm a big
believer in it, and that's why Ithink it has really escalated to
such a scary height that nowpoor parents are being sucked
(25:17):
into this. You know, I am aparent, and I couldn't even
imagine if my kid was strugglingwith it, and you're sort of
forced to go along with thisinstead of being able to get all
kinds of different that's why Idon't believe in affirmation
therapy. I think affirmationtherapy is part of the problem.
I will say, though I grew up inthe, you know, 80s and 90s, I
(25:38):
was a teenager in the 90s, andmy best friends now today are
gay, and I remember growing upduring that time when it was
really hard to be out. And onone hand, I'm so appreciative
that I live now when it's somuch easier, especially in Los
Angeles, to be who you are tolove, who you want to love, and
I do not take that for granted.
And so I do hear that argumentwhere they say, Well, maybe
(26:02):
there would have been more transkids years ago, but there wasn't
such a tolerant space to do soat some at some level, do you
agree with that?
No, I do not. And I'll tell youwhy I don't, because I just, I
believe this is a very rarething. I don't believe that just
because gay and trans are twodifferent things, by the way,
right? We're, we're lumping themin together, which, which also
(26:25):
bothers me on on some level, youcan't do that. They're two
different things, sexuality andgender, and struggling with your
gender. But then again, a kidcould get mixed up about the
fact that they're strugglingwith their gender and not maybe
realizing they're strugglingwith their sexuality. Does that
make sense? Itdoes make sense. And I'm just
curious, when you think back toyour childhood and your teenage
(26:46):
years, and I would say, evenyour 20s, what do you wish you
had had differently? Do you wishyou had had more support from
your peers, from your family?
What would have made Buckangels, life easier? Yeah,
I think the acceptance of beinga gay woman. And you know,
people ask me, because I saythat a lot, and then people ask
me, Well, Buck then why did youtransition later on? And I And
(27:09):
why didn't they'll say, Well,why didn't you just stay as a
gay woman? And I'm like, I did.
I tried it for a long time. Iprobably lived as a gay woman
for 15 years. So it's not like Ididn't try it on, but there was
always something in my gut thatwas like, No, I'm just going to,
you know, and I did it at a timewhen nobody did it, right? I did
it at a time when even mytherapist was like, I have no
idea what to do. I haven't like,we're lost. We're lost together,
(27:31):
right? But there was a systemthat I went through, which is
called the Harry Benjaminstandards of care, right, which
was a system where you had to gothrough therapy and you had to
do mental health care, and thenyou had to live outside as a
man. I had to walk the world asbuck and be that way. You had to
try it on in a way that if youdidn't like it, you could take
(27:52):
it off. And little by little,you know, even my
endocrinologist started me, andhe had never worked with a
female becoming male, andeverything was very experimental
back in the day, but they reallymade it slow and methodical, and
all of the things that they'renot doing today, that's also
why, I think, why are they Whyare you in a rush? What's the
rush?
(28:14):
That approach that you describedsaid so much better with me, and
I know this is my personality. Idon't like to rush, in general,
with medical interventions, butliving that way, living as that
gender, for a year or some timebefore making potentially
irreversible change, that makesa lot more sense to me. That
just sits better with me,because what if we make a
mistake? That'sright, that is such a great
(28:35):
question. What if you make amistake, and now mistakes are
being made, and D transitionershave no help. Do you know that
everyone's there for you whenyou want to transition, but when
a mistake is made, nobody'sthere for you. There is no
medical care for D transistors,which I find appalling, and the
fact that whoever your doctorwas that prescribed you hormones
(28:56):
at 16 after an hour intake thathas to stop, because why are we
in such a rush to transitionkids so fast? It's not how you
do it. You do it very 32 yearshere, I am right, never looking
back, not even thinking aboutit, and it's why I speak out,
because I care that these peopleare taking care of the way I
(29:18):
was. I was taken care of byloving, caring doctors. I don't
feel that all. I'm not sayingall the doctors aren't, but
there are some I don't believeare holding the oath that you
have, which is, you know, thethe oath of do no harm. And that
scares me. It's interesting.
What you say about the detransitioners. Do you feel like
there are more de transitionersin the trans community than
(29:40):
there were in the past. Oh, myGod, are you kidding? That's why
I'm so disgusted. We never hadthem. They were very rare, very
rare because, first off,children didn't transition. This
was never a thing in thiscommunity. We never let kids
come into this. Number two, wehad the Benjamin, Harry Benjamin
standards, where it was very.
Slow, very, very methodically.
You had to be an adult, right?
(30:03):
You understood what you weregetting into. You got a
checklist of things that weregoing to happen to you. Now it's
like, okay, you're trans. It'scalled self ID. Can you imagine,
like you can just self ID astrans now, and don't even need
you don't even need yourparents. At 16 and up, you can
go to Planned Parenthood withoutyour parents consent and do it
all behind your parents back. Ijust
(30:23):
think about teenagers. Theirminds are all over the place.
They're so emotional, they're sovolatile. And I think there's a
reason why we don't want them tomake permanent decisions like
get married before 18, why theycan't get tattoos before 18,
right? Because a lot of timesthey change their minds, and
maybe they won't change theirminds, and I hope that's the
case, but I mean to me, itresonates more that if you have
(30:46):
the ability to wait, why not?
I feel for the parents who arelistening to this and don't
think, I don't think, I don'tknow what you're going through
as a parent, and I can't evenimagine, and I know the only the
thing you want is the best foryour child. But the only thing
I'm going to say to you here, ifyou choose to do that, it's your
choice, and I really wish youthe best, and I hope it really
(31:09):
does pan out. But what I want totell you to do is, can you look
at all sides of the story for mebefore you make the medical
choice? Can you maybe go readthe cash report? And can you
maybe go read about a detransitioner who transitioned at
the age of 13, and now at theage of 22 wishes that they never
did it, and because of thepuberty blockers, you know what
(31:32):
happens is the penis didn'tgrow. So she's a male to female,
and at 13 they gave her hold on.
Can you hear that? Can you guysturn that down a little bit?
Thank you. I want my parents.
Anyway, her penis didn't grow.
So when she got to be 15, andshe wanted to do the vaginal
surgery, they couldn't, becauseshe didn't have the penis to
(31:53):
make the vaginal space, and sothey had to take her colon, and
it became a nightmare, she'snever had sexual relations. She
doesn't even know what it meansto feel sexual towards anybody.
She lost all functioning, evenany kind of attraction. So I
guess what I'm trying to say is,yes, I get it, but it's this is
a long term commitment for yourchild. And I think the bottom
(32:16):
line is, wouldn't you want yourchild just to grow up to be
happy. This should be the lastresort. It should never be the
first resort.
You're right. I think where Icome from is I feel for parents,
because we all want to do theright thing. Obviously, parents
come from the most caring spacefor their children, and I think
we're at a loss of what to do. Ifeel like the pervasive point of
(32:39):
view now is your child feelsgender dysphoria, you should
act, you should do something.
You should treat them medically.
You should help them out. And Ithink, I think my feeling is
there's a need for pause.
There's a need to really taketime and consideration before
you make a decision that youpotentially, hopefully. It's a
small potential, but what if youregret it later?
(33:02):
On all levels, if you don't doit or you do it, it's horrifying
what you're dealing with rightnow. But what I also want to
say, There's no such thing aspausing puberty. I really don't
understand these words thatthey're saying. I went through
female puberty. Look at me. Ilive as a dude. Nobody would
ever know any of it. And I knowthe difference between a male
(33:26):
becoming a female and a femalebecoming a male. Those are two
different spaces. It's muchharder for a female, for a male,
to become a female later on inlife. There's a lot more things
you have to deal with, a lotmore physical things, but you
have to also remember thattranssexualism also deals with
physical space, right? It's notit's the mental connected to the
(33:47):
physical. The mental has to betaken care of before the
physical. We're doing itbackwards now. We're literally
doing physical before we'redoing mental. And I just find
that to be so absurd on so manylevels. I mean, just slow down
people and let's see what'sgoing on here. And maybe I'm
wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in10 years, beauty blockers are
(34:07):
the best thing you could everget. I don't believe it, but
maybe, and maybe I'm right. Sowhatever that even means is we
all gotta come together aspeople and not be so divided in
our thought process around this.
And we all have to listen topeople like myself and older
people who have done this for along time, and we care about
these kids. We're not here totell you not to do it. We're
here to tell you to slow downand let's figure out maybe,
(34:30):
maybe we can get your kid out ofdysphoria. That would be the
most amazing thing ever, if wecan get your kid out of the
dysphoria. Because I feel likewhen we're putting the kids more
deeper into dysphoria when we'retelling them they're trans and
you got to take medication. CanI ask you? Bucha, I don't think
a lot of people understand whatit's like to live as a trans
male. What do you have to do? Ifyou don't mind me asking, yeah.
(34:52):
What kind of medications do youtake on on a regular basis?
Yes, so forever I have toinject. Testosterone. So I've
been injecting testosterone for32 years now, and I will say
that I've been very lucky. Knockon wood. Have not had a lot of
health problems, though I havehad health problems. Again,
being one of the first female tomales, what happened was I have
(35:17):
long term that's why biologymatters in this conversation. I
am a biological female. I didnot change my sex, and so when
I'm putting in testosterone at ahigher level, I'm an experiment,
because they didn't reallyunderstand and so what it did is
it fused my uterus and my cervixtogether, because I had all
(35:37):
these cramps, and thegynecologist has no clue what's
going on. I'm like, I havecramps. They're like, just they
would say that to me. Anyway,years later, my cervix and my
uterus fused together. Wecreated a sort of pocket of an
infection, and it burst one day,and I became septic, and I had
(35:59):
to be rushed to the emergency.
And they're like, man, youalmost died. Luckily, you know,
and we've never seen anythinglike this. And the doctors were,
like, 10 doctors were in theroom like, Whoa, dude. This
thing is insane. My point beingis that that was never spoken
about. So now we know that, butstill me being very outspoken as
I am, doctors are still nottalking about this when they
(36:21):
give their patients testosteroneas females. So that's the most
major thing that's happened tome. I have to continue to shoot
testosterone, uh, to keep mylevels right. Because as you
know, as a doctor, hormonelevels are very important
things. Menopause, all those Iwent through early menopause
that totally wreaked havoc on mymental state of being, but
literally understanding how tolevel my hormones and so that
(36:44):
that's a very important big partof being transsexual is hormonal
and understanding that and howto keep healthy in your in your
sort of regimen of hormonalusage, some people choose not to
do hormones anymore, but Ihaven't chosen to do that. I've
chosen to keep doing it becauseI feel better that way.
(37:07):
And in terms of surgery, I thinksomething else that isn't
discussed or understood thatmuch is how hard the recovery
after a double mastectomy is.
Was it hard in your experience?
My God,that's why I only and yes,
surgery, I only have my chest. Idid not do penis surgery for
many reasons, but mostly becauseit wasn't when I transitioned
(37:27):
years ago. It wasn't reallysomething that I chose to do
because it wasn't a functioningpenis. It still isn't a
functioning penis. In myopinion, I still wouldn't do it,
even if it was so that beingsaid, Because surgery is
hardcore on your body and so, sothat being said, when I got this
surgery, it was the first personto get this particular I got a
keyhole incision from a doctorhere in Los Angeles. He was
(37:49):
amazing. But I it was hard. Itwas hard you have these things
coming out, like, you know, youhave to leakage of the thing.
And it was insane. And I wasgoing through a really hard time
with my girlfriend at the time,because she was having a hard
time with me transitioningbecause we were gay women, and
she was like, you're lookinglike a gem queen. I was dealing
with my relationship fallingapart, which a lot of trans
(38:16):
people deal with. You know that,and it's hard to transition on
lots of levels, mentally,physically, relationship wise,
family wise. There's a lot ofthings we don't talk about that
you take on that why I say it'sa commitment to yourself and to
understand you have to do thisonly for you. But it was
difficult. It was hard for me.
(38:37):
It took me months to get overthat anesthesia stuff was
horrifying.
What I'm learning from you is Ifeel like there's just not one
path that's right for everybody.
It feels like a very individualexperience with a lot to
consider, a lot to take in, God,just everything. That's why I
keep saying this isn't it's notgoing to fix you, I think is
what I want to say. It's goingto give you, may need,
(38:59):
hopefully, a better life, butyou're still going to have to
deal with being that person youwere. You're still going to have
to deal with your biology.
You're still going to have todeal with not being able to go
into certain spaces. You know,this new idea that trans people
are admitted into everything,that's a bunch of BS, as far as
I'm concerned, that's the thingI keep telling the young people,
when you choose to transition,you're going to also have to
(39:22):
choose to give stuff up in yourlife. You don't get everything.
It's not a free pass to be this.
All of a sudden, everyone'sgoing to let trans people be in
those spaces. That's not how itworks. So how it works is you're
going to take care of yourself,but you're also going to
understand that the world mightnot like you and the world might
not want you in spaces and toyou have to be very mature.
That's why I think it takes amature person to transition,
because then you understand thepros and cons. It's not all Pro.
(39:44):
It's not there's cons to this100% there's things I had to
give up in my life, and there'sthings I have to navigate still
as a transsexual man who's afemale and doesn't have a penis
and can't go into the lockerroom and take my under off like
all the rest of the. Men, right?
Because it's not respectful forme to do that. It's
disrespectful for me to makepeople see my body when it's not
(40:07):
consensual, and it's not okay.
But I see this happening moretoday, especially from males to
females, you know, with gettingundressed in locker rooms and
showing their penises in frontof girls, that's just not okay.
It's not it seems very entitled,and on some level, you know, I'm
asking you to accept me. It'snot the other way around. I'm
asking you to let me function asthis person. And I think,
(40:29):
because I come to the world thatway, you all let me exist, and I
don't have a problem walking theworld. But
Buck, do you think this? Becausethis is what people say, and I
understand this point of view.
But they'll say, if you knowthat person feels like they're a
female, does it bother you less?
Can you be accepting if you knowthat they feel like they're a
female? Well,of course you, of course you
(40:50):
can. But here's the deal. For atranssexual person, they have to
come to this table too. It can'tjust be like, I'm expecting you
to like, bend over backwards forme, if that makes sense. You
know, that's with everything inthe world. It's called
coexisting. That's whycoexisting is such an important
word me and you have to meet inthe middle of this thing right
here. And yes, for you to see meas a man, I also have to
(41:12):
appreciate that you understandwhere I'm coming from, that I am
a biological female, that I'mnot lying, that I'm not a man,
okay? I look like a man. I wantto be a man. And when I'm honest
to you, swear to God, Jessica,everyone loves me for it. I
don't have any issues with it'sthe trans activists that get mad
at me for saying that. And I'mlike, why I'm not I'm not gonna
lie to people. So I does thatmake sense? Like you've really
(41:35):
got to be honest as atranssexual person, and once
you're honest, and I proved it,the world loves me. Issues
walking the world, and peoplecome up to me in airports, oh my
god, fuck. I love you. Like,that's awesome. I couldn't ask
for even in the men's room,like, Bucha. I'm just like,
because I'm not asking, I'm so Idon't really, in fact, I am
(41:57):
asking. I'm just saying, like,look, here I am. If it's
uncomfortable, I'll leave, I'llleave. I'll be the first one to
leave. We don't even need tohave that. But I don't see that
respect happening. I feel likethere's if you believe someone's
a woman, then that's great thatthat means that you're awesome
and you're willing to have anopen mind, but it but some
people aren't whatI what I genuinely respect and
admire so much about you is Ifeel like you talk about the
(42:20):
transgender issue with a humanlens, you come at it with an
honest, human perspective. And Ifeel like what's what's tricky
is now it's become so political,and I want to understand it from
a from a human, loving,compassionate capacity,
right? Excellent, thank you. Andthat's what most people want.
(42:41):
I'll be honest, I've been doingthis. Doing this for a long
time. It's only been in the lastfive or so years that it got all
nasty and political, and I readin the paper and they're talking
about transgender we're gonnaget rid of. I'm like, wow,
really? Thanks, trans activists.
They never talked about thatbefore, ever. Now, that's really
the fault of the transcommunities. Nobody else's
fault. When you starttransitioning children in the
(43:02):
public eye and you see familieson Tiktok with four trans kids,
you are asking for problems.
Okay, those should be privatefamily matters that should not
be talked about on Tiktok, andyour whole family is trans, and
mom's trans, Dad's trans kidsare trans. No wonder people
think we're win nuts. I'm like,okay, there goes our all the
(43:23):
rights we fought for. Peopledidn't care about us before.
They really didn't, because thewhole point of transitioning is
to get back into the world. It'snot to disrupt the world. And
all of a sudden I feel like allthese trans actors want to
disrupt the system, right? Sothat becomes a political space.
This is not political, by theway. It's just not political.
(43:45):
It's and I want to hang out withyou. I want to sit at the table
with you. I don't want to bedifferent than you. I
can totally hear that.
Thank you so much for yourhonest, genuine perspective on
this. I think it's reallyhelpful to hear. And I'm just
curious so your overall feelingon children and the trans
community. If you could share amessage to parents on your
(44:06):
overall feeling about childrenand the trans community, what?
What would it be? What do youthink parents need to hear? What
do you what do you wish parentsknew?
Well, first, what I wish is thatwe'd stop saying trans kids. I
really just wish that Okay,number one. Number two, I wish
you would stop. DidI make that mistake? Sorry.
I apologize. Not you, not you.
Everyone doesn't even I justsaid it, right? So I don't like
pigeon holding children, okay? Idon't like putting them into the
(44:30):
space. And let's just be honesthere. Kids love accolades,
right? They love it when my kidplays a piano, everyone's like,
well, you're so amazing. Soguess what? He plays a piano all
the time because he likeshearing everyone say, oh, so
kids love that. When kids aretrans now they're popular and
they're cool. So I think that'sour first mistake. I never said
that there could be trans kids.
(44:52):
Okay, these, but I like to callthem kids with dysphoria.
They're kids with dysphoria, andsome kids will be able to live
with them. For the rest of theirlives, some kids might need to
eventually transition. So what Iwant parents to hear is this, I
think, first off, don't go inthose trans parent groups.
You're making a huge mistake,because I've been in them, and
they're very one sided andthey're very mean, and if you
(45:15):
don't go along with the agenda,they will say so many mean
things to you. You don't needany of that. You need people who
are loving, caring, who arehonest to you, who can give you
factual information, and you canmake the right choice as a
parent. So I highly suggest youdon't pigeon on yourself in
that. And I think you have tolook at all aspects of the
conversation. And I also thinkyou need to get your kid into
(45:35):
therapy, 100% into therapy, andI think you're being a great
parent by even just having theconversation, okay, that number
one right there is justaccepting the fact that my child
might be different is amazingand makes you an awesome parent.
But please don't just take oneperson's word for it, because
all kids are different, and yourkid might be that kid who could
grow up and be completely okaywith it, just maybe let him wear
(45:57):
boy clothes or girl clothes fora while and see what happens
from there. Right? And don'tmake a big deal out of it.
Everybody's making a big dealout of it. Like, just let your
kid, right? You understand whatI mean. Like, stop it.
I think when I when I pictureparents, it's like, we the goal
of parents. I think number oneis just to stay loving and
caring and supportive. And whatI'm hearing from you is it
(46:19):
doesn't have to be makingdecisions that may be
irreversible, 100%irreversible. I don't care what
anybody says they are ear I'veinterviewed over 100 D
transitioners, ones who'vetransitioned from the age of 10
to ones who transitioned at 16.
You cannot change what you putin those kids. If you are doing
medical intervention with thesekids, you can't reverse it ever,
(46:41):
and there will be damage done tothese children. So, so what if
he's crying in the room and hewants to wear a binder? Oh,
well, guess what? You can't havethose Nike shoes.
No, it's no is a good thing.
Sometimes, amen to that.
I have a teenager myself who,yeah, she hearing a bit of No,
(47:02):
she doesn't like it, but I knowit's
good for her. No, it's like oneof the most important things a
parent can say. I mean, I hatedit when I was a kid. We all did,
right? But as you grow older andyou realize that it's just part
of being a parent, you got tomake boundaries around kids. And
you know, like, now, trans is acool thing to be, let's just be
honest. We have to have thatconversation. That's why I'm
scared that some parents arebeing manipulated into this
(47:25):
process, right? And that's theother thing. I don't want you to
be manipulated into it, becausemaybe your kid isn't, maybe they
are, right? It's a big question,and you're dealing with a lot of
stuff as a parent, and it breaksmy heart, but at the same time,
step back a minute anddisassociate with this whole
trans thing. I think a lot ofparents are looking for help,
(47:46):
and then they get sucked intothis whole sort of transparent
thing, and it becomes a very,very dangerous space for you to
be inBucha. You're so amazing. I'm so
grateful for your voice. So forparents that are listening.
Maybe they know somebody who'sstruggling feeling gender
dysphoria, or they have a childwho's feeling gender dysphoric,
in addition to finding a goodtherapist, a community, anything
(48:09):
else that you recommend thatthey reach out to for support. I
mean, I'm thinking you, how canthey find you and other sources
that may be supportive?
Yeah, I mean, so So I don't knowif you know of Gen spec, they're
a great organization. Gen specorg, I think it is also therapy
first is an excellentorganization. Of all my friends,
(48:30):
they're all great therapists.
They care about they're not antitrans at all. They want to help.
They want to some of them are detransition therapists, like it's
a great organization. So Ihighly recommend those
organizations. I also, if youneed to get me, I'm on every
platform that's out there,YouTube, Instagram, X, I answer
all my emails. I might not getyou right away. I care about
(48:51):
you, and if you need any kind ofresources, I have them all. So
again, just you know I love thatyou care about your kid. But
what I don't like is that I feelsometimes you're you're being
manipulated as a parent. And ifyou're vulnerable right now as a
parent, you're so vulnerable,and instead of us understanding
the vulnerability you are as aparent, we're politicizing your
(49:12):
vulnerability, vulnerability.
That's hard work to say, and Idon't like it, so I want to be
here to help you as an oldertranssexual person. Bucha,
thank you so much. You are trulya gem, and I'm so grateful to
know you, and thank you so muchfor this conversation. Thanks.
Thanks. Dr Jessica, thank youfor listening, and I hope you
enjoyed this week's episode ofAsk. Dr Jessica, also, if you
(49:35):
could take a moment and leave afive star review, wherever it is
you listen to podcasts, I wouldgreatly appreciate it. It really
makes a difference to help thispodcast grow. You can also
follow me on Instagram at ask DrJessica. See you next Monday.
You.
Hi everybody. I'm Dr Jessica Hochman, pediatrician
(00:01):
and mom of three. On thispodcast, I like to talk about
various pediatric health topics,sharing my knowledge, not only
as a doctor, but also as aparent. Ultimately, my
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actionable insights. Bucha, I amso happy to have you on the
(01:07):
podcast. Thank you so much fortaking the time to be here.
Oh, you're so sweet, Jessica,thank you. Or can I call you Dr,
Jessica,you can call me anything you
want.
No thanks. It really means a lotto me that you're wanting to
have a conversation today,people don't necessarily want to
have what we probably might,what people consider a difficult
conversation. But you know, itdoes mean a lot to me. It means
(01:30):
you care. And I remember thefirst time I met you, I just saw
that caring person that youwere, and you came up to me and
you were so, like, excited tomeet me, which was kind of
funny, but you were just soawesome. And so, you know,
saying so many beautiful thingsto me. So I just want to thank
you for seeing me. It means alot.
Thank you so much. Well, I meaneverything I say, I don't
remember exactly what I said,but I do remember being very
(01:53):
excited to meet you, and I'mjust so appreciative, because I
know this conversation, or thistopic of conversation, has
become a difficult one forsociety to have, I feel like in
an open, honest way, and I knowyou have your your story, and
other people have their stories,but I thought it would be
helpful for my audience to hearan open conversation about what
(02:14):
it's like to be a trans male andabout your experience. And I'm
so grateful that you've acceptedthe invitation to be here today
and to talk about it. Thankyou. Yeah, no, you know a lot of
trans male, female to male, wedon't have a large voice out
there, and I think it'simportant that we start to speak
up. And I encourage a lot moretrans men like myself to start
(02:35):
to have the conversation,because my experience is
completely different than a manwho becomes a woman. If that
makes sense, most of the dialogis coming from men becoming
women. That'sreally interesting, because I
know a lot of times we tend togroup things, and we put
everything into one category. SoI appreciate so we'll be hearing
from your perspective as someonewho was born as a biologic
(02:57):
female, and your experience asnow living as a trans male,
that's right. And the reason whyI'm so happy to talk to you is I
feel like we live in a societywhere everybody wants to be
loving and accepting, but it'sbecome sort of taboo to ask
questions, yeah, and so Iappreciate that you allow that
space. So I just want to askquestions that I think are on
(03:19):
parents minds, but they may beafraid to ask out loud, great.
So the first is, can you explainwhat your experience was as a
child? Like, what? What was yourexperience feeling gender
dysphoria? And what is genderdysphoria? Exactly?
So great question. And to allthe parents and people who are
concerned, thanks for listeningto me, because I do first want
(03:40):
to say that these kind ofconversations are so important.
I transitioned 32 years ago, sothat being said, you have to get
different perspectives. Youcan't just listen to one side of
the story, and I believe that'swith anything, right, but
specifically when it deals withtheir child. And I will tell you
that I think a lot of theinformation is one sided, and a
lot of the information tends notto give you, you know, the whole
(04:03):
idea of what it really means tobe trans or and that with a
child. So, so gender dysphoriais the feeling of not fitting
your gender assign, you know,and this assigned at birth. I
was not assigned female. I wasborn a female. You know, it's
really important that weunderstand these terminologies,
and when they start to changethese terminologies, it starts
(04:24):
to put a different mindset withyou. And that's dangerous to me.
You can never forget that yourchild is born male and female,
unless they're intersex, whichis a very, very small part of
this situation. But every personis born pretty much male or
female. They are not assignedanything. That's very important
with what I'm going to tell you.
So I was born female, and what Ididn't feel like, my gender
(04:46):
dysphoria made me feel like Iwanted to be a boy, and that's
what kids do, right? I think Iwas pretty much a tomboy,
really. My parents were supercool. I'm 62 and my parents were
pretty much just let me be thattomboy, right? I had a boy name
and round her. Around, but Ialways kind of had to go back
and forth between that and thegirl name. I had distress. There
was no doubt about it, but Iwould tell you that I'm not sure
(05:06):
if the distress was just genderdysphoria, because as I grew up,
I started to more become more apart of my sexuality, and I
started becoming attracted togirls and not boys, and it was
more sexually. It wasn't so muchthat I wanted to be a boy. I was
more sexually, if that makessense, attracted to wanting to
be with girls, which I thoughtmeant I needed to be a boy. So I
(05:28):
didn't know about being gay inthe 60s and 70s. So So could
that have been part of it? Yousee how what I'm trying to say
here is there's a lot ofvariables happening with kids
and So, long story short, Ieventually became a gay woman,
and I eventually struggled withmy stuff, and I dealt with
alcoholism and drug addictionand all of the things that
(05:49):
people just deal with. A lot oftimes. I went to a lot of
therapy back in the day. Nobodyknew any of that. So I guess
what I'm trying to say here isthat, as a parent, for sure,
watch your kids and see what'sgoing on. But I don't think the
information is there enough tosay that you can hard wire a
child at 10 years old, right? Ifmy parents would have hardwired
(06:12):
me at 10 and didn't let me gothrough all the growth I did
until 30, I think that wouldhave been a huge mistake. So I
don't think I was an actualtrans kid. I think I was a
kid. Does that make sense?
No, it does make sense. And I'mI'm so grateful that your
parents were so supportive.
I'm at my parents house rightnow in Palm Springs, and they're
(06:34):
super awesome, and I have agreat relationship with them
that I had to rebuild afteryears of not being a good kid
and struggling and doing that,but you know, as a grown up and
somebody who really feels sohappy that I made it through to
the other side, families arevery important to me, and one of
the other things I see in thisnewer trans space is they really
try to disconnect young peoplefrom their families, which is
(06:56):
scary to me, and that that isnot part of being trans, that's
something else when you start todisconnect a child from their
family.
So a question that I have, andyou may not have an answer,
because I realize thateverybody's experiences are
different. Yeah, but when I wasin medical school, back in 2007
I worked with a doctor named Drnorm Spack, and he ended up
(07:17):
actually having the firsttransgender clinic in the United
States. This was in Boston,okay? And that was my first
experience working with thetrans community, yeah. And he
told me that he was gettingcalls from families all over the
country and in differentcountries where they had little
kids that knew they were, thatfelt they were a different
gender than that they were born,and they were coming to him for
(07:39):
advice. And he told me that whenkids are little and they feel
that they are a differentgender, it's best to transition
them in childhood so that theydon't grow up feeling
uncomfortable. So he taught methat for kids that know from an
early age it's gonna stick, weneed to support them being in
that different gender role. Andso that was my teaching from
(08:02):
early on. And I guess this iswhat's so hard, is that as a
parent, you want to besupportive of your children, but
my tendency in medicine ingeneral is I like to wait on
things I feel like, especiallyif there's potential for side
effects, it's always better towait. I guess I'm curious for
yourself as a kid, if you hadmet that doctor early on in
(08:22):
life, would that have made yourexperience better? Do you think?
No,I will tell you that right now.
And you know, I'm gonna, as yousee, I said it no before you
even finish the question,because I refuse to let people
tell me I was a trans kid. I wasnot a trans kid, okay? And I
don't like this label. I hatethat we label, label a kid gay,
label people. That's not true.
(08:44):
Kids experiment with things thatgo Now that being said, I do
think there are young people whoprobably have gender dysphoria,
who probably feel like a boy andmight or girl, and might grow up
enough to make that choice. Butit is rare. This has always been
rare, because if it was ascommon as we're trying to show
it today, why hasn't it alwaysbeen like that? Well, all of a
(09:05):
sudden, did there be such anupswing of 4,000% which is an
actual statistic, 4,000% ofyoung girls who claim to be
trans? How is that even possiblein the last five to 10 years? So
there's a lot of variables.
We're not looking at internet,peer pressure, blah, blah, blah.
Girls go through all kinds ofstuff, through through puberty,
right? We all deal with thatkind of stuff. So I'm going to
(09:28):
tell you that I believe inwatchful waiting, and number
one, number two is not todiscourage the kid and be like I
know you're not. No, no, no,it's good. You want to be Tommy.
Okay, cool. That's what myparents did you want to be Jake?
You go right ahead. You do that.
Let it out. Call me the boyname, all that kind of stuff. It
was totally fine. And they got alot of backlash for it from
(09:52):
people. That's your daughter,not your son. Back in the 70s,
imagine, so, so, so that beingsaid, I also don't believe in
Medicare. Conversation. I don'tbelieve a medicalizing a child.
I also they've done studies onsocial transitioning for young
people. It does not they willimmediate. If you social
transition a child, what happensis that child will almost 90% go
(10:15):
into cross sex hormones. Soyou're not being fair to the
child, because you're alreadypushing them into into that,
into that space. I'm a bigmental health person. I think
they should be in mental healthcare.
Okay, so you're so you're sayingthat for for children or for
yourself as a child? Yes,looking back, what would have
benefited you the most wouldhave been more mental health
support. 100% emphasis on mentalhealth support, less on thinking
(10:38):
about starting medications likepuberty blockers and
surgeries were lost. They didn'thave the information. They even
told me they were they werelike, tried so many things, and
I did become depressed and notgood and not functioning, and I
didn't graduate high school, andI was, you know, the only thing
I did good was sports. That wasthe only thing I ever did good.
I was really a high rankingfemale athlete, but I'm going to
(11:01):
tell you when I think about it,and as I write my book and as I
look at those things, I reallywant again, for you to hear me.
I was really more connected tomy sexuality. I don't think it
was so much my gender. I thinkit really was I was struggling
with my sexuality. And I reallywant people to hear this. 90% of
(11:21):
the kids who went to theTavistock clinic in the UK and
were considered trans ended upbeing homosexual kids. 90% so
that's why it's so dangerous tosort of say, Oh, well, my kid is
this way. They're trans. That'swhy I don't like labeling, right
labeling, especially in 10 or 11year olds, because, you know,
(11:42):
you're a doctor, kids grow outof things, or they experiment
with things. Or also, are wediscouraging them from maybe
experimenting with things? Whenwe say, Oh, you're trans, you're
trans at five, that they'redoing that now you're trans at
four, it'strue, I think, almost like we're
so we want to be so supportivein the name of being supportive
as parents are, our kids saythat they're something and we
(12:05):
want to we jump on it and acceptit as truth. But the truth is,
kids have vivid imaginations.
Their interests change all thetime, and especially, I think
about as you go through puberty,it's such an uncomfortable time.
The way you feel about yourbody, the way you think about
yourself is just an icky time ingeneral. And so I do feel like
(12:26):
we want to be careful not tomake changes that would
potentially be irreversible. AndI think that's where I get
nervous with the way medicine isgoing, Yeah,
and as a doctor, you should bebecause, you know, the other
thing I'll say is I'm all abouthelping these kids. I'm all
about, of course, there's goingto be a kid dealing with
dysphoria, there's going to besomebody, but it's a rare This
(12:48):
has always been rare. I don'tlike how we're making it so
common, because the thing is,this is not easy, right? This is
a commitment for life. I keeptelling everybody I committed to
this. I can't turn around and goback, look at me, right? There's
just not going to happen. Butwhat's happening is we're
presenting this as somethingthat, well, if you don't like
it, you can just stop. No, youcan't. And it absolutely is
(13:10):
disrespectful to people likemyself who actually really have
gender dysphoria, and thisreally did help me to become a
better person, right? I gotsober, I have I'm I'm have a
family, I have businesses. I ambetter than I could ever be.
Even my parents are like, whoare you? So it that's what I
want people to see. Why you'vegot to give people time to
(13:31):
figure out that, Oh, am Iwilling to make this choice that
is forever when they'reoperating on 16 year old girls
and letting them remove theirbreasts because they're trans,
we are doing a disservice tothese young people, because
what's happening now is we havea lot of these kids who are
changing their mind, right? Wedo. They're called D
transitioners. And so now, whatdo you do when you let young
girls think they're a boy andthen and they're hiding that?
(13:53):
The Trans community is hidingthat. So I'm like, do you really
care? Do you actually care?
Because if you cared, youwouldn't be hiding to de
transitioners, we would be usingthem in a way that says, Oh my
God, what are we doing wronghere? Why are we doing this to
young people?
I think what makes me nervous isthe idea that we may be rushing.
Because I actually, as apediatrician, I don't make the
(14:15):
decision on who starts hormonesand who gets surgeries, but we
refer them to gender clinics,and I've read statistics that
within a year of sending a childto a gender clinic, about 80%
may have initiated a hormone. Iread this from the there was a
clinic in Washington where thisthis was the case, that within a
year of referring a kid to thatclinic, 80% had been had
(14:39):
initiated a hormone. And thatmakes me nervous, just because I
don't think people fullyunderstand the potential side
effects that may come from thesehormones, it doesn't sit well
with me because, because I don'twant to make a mistake, you
know, and no, because, as adoctor, though the tenant is do
no harm, and so I want to makesure that we are being
supportive and loving, but all.
So looking into all the sideeffects, that's where
(15:04):
the thing is. As you say, itgets so flustered because I
care. I care enough to sit hereand say things that people don't
want to hear. That means I care.
It doesn't mean I hate and itdoesn't mean I don't want
somebody to transition. What itmeans is I want somebody to have
what I have, which has beenincredible 32 years, you can't
deny this does exist. That's whyall size people on some level
(15:24):
come at me, because I prove thatit works, but I also prove to
you that you can be a child andgo through puberty and you can't
struggle a little bit. What'sthis thing that kids can't
struggle, that I don't evenunderstand struggle is good,
because struggle does make youthink about things and this and
that I would have much rather alot of these young teenage girls
have struggled with theirdysphoria and not cut their
(15:46):
breasts off and took cross sexhormones and had hysterectomies
at 16, and now they're 20 andthey're like, whoops, I made a
mistake. This isn't a whoopsmistake, right? A whoops mistake
is cutting your hair off andgoing, lips. I should have never
done that. So medicalization issuch a very tricky thing, and it
really needs to be put in aspace of what you're saying. We
(16:10):
need to look at it. We need tohave a law. We have long term
studies on puberty blockers, onkids, and it doesn't work. Cast
report. I don't know why peoplekeep shoving the cast report
under the under the tables, asif it doesn't exist. It
literally says we did studies.
It doesn't work. Maybe it'llwork later on. We need more long
term. But the transgenderactivists call that a
(16:33):
transphobic report, which justblows my mind. I
just think that families reallyneed to understand the full
implications, because when Ihear that our interventions may
make somebody sterile, may makesomebody have a difficult time
achieving orgasm if they takepuberty blockers too too young,
that makes me nervous thatpeople aren't fully
(16:55):
understanding the potential sideeffects. And I think about it,
and I what I feel for parents isthey have a child who's
struggling, who often feelsdepressed, sad, uncomfortable in
their own skin, and I think theyget nervous that their child
will honestly have suicidalideation, hurt themselves, and
that's a big burden on a parent.
So what do you say to familiesin that situation?
(17:18):
Well, you know, if your child isis saying they want to unalive
themselves, or that that that'sa definitely a very sad and bad
space to be in. But that's whymental health care and why we
need to really start pushingthat more than medicalization,
because it's heretranssexualism, and I call it
(17:41):
transsexualism, and I don't callit transgenderism, because I
find them to be two differentspaces. At this point, I'm a
transsexual. I'm somebody whowanted to live as a man and have
what we used to call a sexchange, right? So I come from
the old school space, and I'msort of bringing that word back,
because I don't identify astrans. I identify as a man who
(18:02):
is a woman who wants to livethat way. But anyway, getting
back to that, that's why some weneed to keep it in a mental
disorder space. It is not normalfor somebody to feel this way,
and it's okay that it's notnormal. We can't shame mental
disorders. What we need to do isfigure out why somebody feels
that way. So if a kid is saying,I want to kill themselves
because I want to be a boy,okay, okay, we need to figure
(18:25):
out, why is that not give youhormones for it? Because that's
not going to alleviate what'sgoing on in the brain. It's
going to alleviate physically,maybe, what's going on. But why
does that kid feel that way? Weneed to look at that before we
say, Okay, let's start givingthem this and that, and then I
understand that, because I feltthat way. But I felt that way, I
(18:46):
think, for a lot of otherreasons, and not necessarily
because I wanted to be a boy.
There was a lot of other thingsgoing on with me, and that's
what's happening with thesekids, is we're not we're not
looking at all the other likecomorbidities or things that are
going on. We notice autism tendsnow to be a big factor with a
lot of these trans kids, right?
So why? Why is that happening?
Why are a lot of autistic kidsnow identifying as trans?
(19:11):
But can you tell me more aboutyour experience transitioning? I
know you waited until you were30 years old. In retrospect, do
you wish you had done it sooner,or do you feel like that was the
right time for you? No,and it's a great question. And
you know, if you would haveasked me that at 10, I probably
would have said, I want to be aboy. I can do it right now, of
course, right? But as a 62 yearold who struggled to get to the
(19:33):
space and has been transitionedfor such a long time, I would
say no. I would say no, it wasthe best thing I ever did was to
live some life. And you know, Ilived as a as a girl, then I
lived as a woman, then I wentthrough puberty, then I
struggled in my sexuality as ayoung teenager and up into my
young adulthood, and then Ibecame a gay woman, and then I
(19:54):
lived that lifestyle of a gaywoman for many, many years. And
you know, that was an. Excellentpart of my life. I don't ever
look at it as negative. I lovedliving in that space, and I
loved being in the gay women'sspace, but I knew something
underneath wasn't right, and sono, I would say that all of
those experiences, as you know,any experience in your life, if
(20:15):
you really look back on it,probably made you a better
person, even if it was a badexperience, I struggled with
drugs, alcohol, you know,ideate, suicidal ideation, all
of it, hospitalized. But that'spart of life, right? And so no,
I will tell you now I do notbelieve that me transitioning
earlier would have done what ithas done for me today, which is
(20:36):
all the things I have in my lifeare because of the struggle up
to the transition and makingthat choice me, my parents
didn't make the choice, right? Imade the choice so if the choice
didn't work out, I can't blamemy parents, and that's why I
also say to parents, be carefulmaking that choice for your
child, because if you make thislife changing choice for your
(20:58):
child, and they change theirmind at 20, you are going to
have to bear the brunt of thatdecision.
So I'm just so curious. Not to,you know, sorry to ask this
again, but no, it's okay. I'mjust hearing you talk about how
you went through drugs and youdid experience suicidal
ideation. There's not a piece ofyou that wishes you had
(21:19):
transitioned sooner, because,maybe because, maybe you would
have avoided all of that.
No, and I'm telling you assomeone who really thought with
it, thought sat with myself andthought of all of it, but I also
thought of all the great times Ihad. And I will tell you that I
struggled more again. Reallybelieve I struggle with my
sexuality and not with mygender. I really do believe
(21:42):
that, and I think that's wherethat was coming from, because
back in the day, couldn't be agay woman, right? And I was an
athlete, and I was sponsored byAdidas and Nike, and you didn't
talk about being gay, and youwould lose your sponsorship. And
so there was a lot of burden ofdealing with that sexuality. And
so why I say that is becausethose things were and I'm not
(22:03):
saying pseudo suicidal ideationis good. But I also want to
remind people that it's not justtrans people who have those
situations. A lot of people havethose ideations, right? Even gay
people have it. Even straightpeople have it. So the root
cause of that, we need to figureout why. And I, you know, I do
believe the root cause of all ofthat was because I wasn't really
(22:26):
being able to be myself.
Couldn't be a butch girl. Icouldn't be a butch woman. I
couldn't be that. And I don'twant anybody to feel suicidal.
That's not what I'm saying. ButI think today, we can understand
things a lot more than we could30 years ago, and why again? I
will always circle back tomental health care. I will
always circle back to thatbefore I will circle back to
drugs and hormones and pubertyblockers. Seems
(22:50):
to me that from an outsiderperspective, that there's just
not a quick fix, and I think weall wish there was a quick fix,
but it's just a difficult spaceto live in.
Yes, it's not fun. But let mealso remind you that many people
have lived with gender dysphoriaand never transitioned. They
still do. There's a lot of gaywomen I know who have dealt with
(23:10):
their gender dysphoria, and theythey just choose not to move to
this space, and they deal withit, and they feel like I want to
be a boy, I want to be a man,but I'm just not going to take
that today. I feel like peopleare being pressured into
transitioning, and that if youdon't, and I know that also
firsthand, because I haveinterviewed many D
transitioners, and mostly to bewomen, and said they felt
(23:30):
pressured by the community thatthey weren't good women, that
they were actually trans.
There's this more pressure.
Again, labels are verydangerous. I really think
they're dangerous. Now we havelabels, right? Non binary,
trans, queer, whatever. It'slike, wait a minute, why can't
you just be Jackie or Susie or,you know what I mean? I'm like,
(23:50):
maybe today you're gay, andmaybe tomorrow you're not, and
that's okay,right? There's so much emphasis
today on a child's gender, asopposed to what they're
interested in. I want to knowabout a kid. What do you like to
do outside of school? What areyour passions? And now I feel
like so much of the conversationis about their sexuality and
their gender. It'sshocking. I just interviewed an
actual 13 year old young girlwho got sucked into being trans
(24:13):
at 10, at 10 on Tiktok. Oh, myGod. The whole interview blows
my mind, and she reached out tome, which is so amazing, and she
wanted to spill the beans whenshe went on Tiktok and everyone
who told her she was trans, andshe had to separate from her
family there. I mean, it's themost horrifying story. And she
never felt suicidal ideationuntil she started to become
(24:34):
trans. So it's there's a lot ofindoctrination of some thought
process happening that I thinkis really dangerous. We need to
take this trans thing off thetable. We really do, because I
think it is pushing kids intothis idea that they have to be I
think young girls have alwaysstruggled with these
comorbidities are like, youknow, anorexia and cutting and
(24:54):
all kinds of things, right? Thisfeels like it's another one of
those things, because it reallyis predominantly with young
girls than it is with youngboys,
the element of social contagion.
Andthere you go, friend. I'm a big
believer in it, and that's why Ithink it has really escalated to
such a scary height that nowpoor parents are being sucked
(25:17):
into this. You know, I am aparent, and I couldn't even
imagine if my kid was strugglingwith it, and you're sort of
forced to go along with thisinstead of being able to get all
kinds of different that's why Idon't believe in affirmation
therapy. I think affirmationtherapy is part of the problem.
I will say, though I grew up inthe, you know, 80s and 90s, I
(25:38):
was a teenager in the 90s, andmy best friends now today are
gay, and I remember growing upduring that time when it was
really hard to be out. And onone hand, I'm so appreciative
that I live now when it's somuch easier, especially in Los
Angeles, to be who you are tolove, who you want to love, and
I do not take that for granted.
And so I do hear that argumentwhere they say, Well, maybe
(26:02):
there would have been more transkids years ago, but there wasn't
such a tolerant space to do soat some at some level, do you
agree with that?
No, I do not. And I'll tell youwhy I don't, because I just, I
believe this is a very rarething. I don't believe that just
because gay and trans are twodifferent things, by the way,
right? We're, we're lumping themin together, which, which also
(26:25):
bothers me on on some level, youcan't do that. They're two
different things, sexuality andgender, and struggling with your
gender. But then again, a kidcould get mixed up about the
fact that they're strugglingwith their gender and not maybe
realizing they're strugglingwith their sexuality. Does that
make sense? Itdoes make sense. And I'm just
curious, when you think back toyour childhood and your teenage
(26:46):
years, and I would say, evenyour 20s, what do you wish you
had had differently? Do you wishyou had had more support from
your peers, from your family?
What would have made Buckangels, life easier? Yeah,
I think the acceptance of beinga gay woman. And you know,
people ask me, because I saythat a lot, and then people ask
me, Well, Buck then why did youtransition later on? And I And
(27:09):
why didn't they'll say, Well,why didn't you just stay as a
gay woman? And I'm like, I did.
I tried it for a long time. Iprobably lived as a gay woman
for 15 years. So it's not like Ididn't try it on, but there was
always something in my gut thatwas like, No, I'm just going to,
you know, and I did it at a timewhen nobody did it, right? I did
it at a time when even mytherapist was like, I have no
idea what to do. I haven't like,we're lost. We're lost together,
(27:31):
right? But there was a systemthat I went through, which is
called the Harry Benjaminstandards of care, right, which
was a system where you had to gothrough therapy and you had to
do mental health care, and thenyou had to live outside as a
man. I had to walk the world asbuck and be that way. You had to
try it on in a way that if youdidn't like it, you could take
(27:52):
it off. And little by little,you know, even my
endocrinologist started me, andhe had never worked with a
female becoming male, andeverything was very experimental
back in the day, but they reallymade it slow and methodical, and
all of the things that they'renot doing today, that's also
why, I think, why are they Whyare you in a rush? What's the
rush?
(28:14):
That approach that you describedsaid so much better with me, and
I know this is my personality. Idon't like to rush, in general,
with medical interventions, butliving that way, living as that
gender, for a year or some timebefore making potentially
irreversible change, that makesa lot more sense to me. That
just sits better with me,because what if we make a
mistake? That'sright, that is such a great
(28:35):
question. What if you make amistake, and now mistakes are
being made, and D transitionershave no help. Do you know that
everyone's there for you whenyou want to transition, but when
a mistake is made, nobody'sthere for you. There is no
medical care for D transistors,which I find appalling, and the
fact that whoever your doctorwas that prescribed you hormones
(28:56):
at 16 after an hour intake thathas to stop, because why are we
in such a rush to transitionkids so fast? It's not how you
do it. You do it very 32 yearshere, I am right, never looking
back, not even thinking aboutit, and it's why I speak out,
because I care that these peopleare taking care of the way I
(29:18):
was. I was taken care of byloving, caring doctors. I don't
feel that all. I'm not sayingall the doctors aren't, but
there are some I don't believeare holding the oath that you
have, which is, you know, thethe oath of do no harm. And that
scares me. It's interesting.
What you say about the detransitioners. Do you feel like
there are more de transitionersin the trans community than
(29:40):
there were in the past. Oh, myGod, are you kidding? That's why
I'm so disgusted. We never hadthem. They were very rare, very
rare because, first off,children didn't transition. This
was never a thing in thiscommunity. We never let kids
come into this. Number two, wehad the Benjamin, Harry Benjamin
standards, where it was very.
Slow, very, very methodically.
You had to be an adult, right?
(30:03):
You understood what you weregetting into. You got a
checklist of things that weregoing to happen to you. Now it's
like, okay, you're trans. It'scalled self ID. Can you imagine,
like you can just self ID astrans now, and don't even need
you don't even need yourparents. At 16 and up, you can
go to Planned Parenthood withoutyour parents consent and do it
all behind your parents back. Ijust
(30:23):
think about teenagers. Theirminds are all over the place.
They're so emotional, they're sovolatile. And I think there's a
reason why we don't want them tomake permanent decisions like
get married before 18, why theycan't get tattoos before 18,
right? Because a lot of timesthey change their minds, and
maybe they won't change theirminds, and I hope that's the
case, but I mean to me, itresonates more that if you have
(30:46):
the ability to wait, why not?
I feel for the parents who arelistening to this and don't
think, I don't think, I don'tknow what you're going through
as a parent, and I can't evenimagine, and I know the only the
thing you want is the best foryour child. But the only thing
I'm going to say to you here, ifyou choose to do that, it's your
choice, and I really wish youthe best, and I hope it really
(31:09):
does pan out. But what I want totell you to do is, can you look
at all sides of the story for mebefore you make the medical
choice? Can you maybe go readthe cash report? And can you
maybe go read about a detransitioner who transitioned at
the age of 13, and now at theage of 22 wishes that they never
did it, and because of thepuberty blockers, you know what
(31:32):
happens is the penis didn'tgrow. So she's a male to female,
and at 13 they gave her hold on.
Can you hear that? Can you guysturn that down a little bit?
Thank you. I want my parents.
Anyway, her penis didn't grow.
So when she got to be 15, andshe wanted to do the vaginal
surgery, they couldn't, becauseshe didn't have the penis to
(31:53):
make the vaginal space, and sothey had to take her colon, and
it became a nightmare, she'snever had sexual relations. She
doesn't even know what it meansto feel sexual towards anybody.
She lost all functioning, evenany kind of attraction. So I
guess what I'm trying to say is,yes, I get it, but it's this is
a long term commitment for yourchild. And I think the bottom
(32:16):
line is, wouldn't you want yourchild just to grow up to be
happy. This should be the lastresort. It should never be the
first resort.
You're right. I think where Icome from is I feel for parents,
because we all want to do theright thing. Obviously, parents
come from the most caring spacefor their children, and I think
we're at a loss of what to do. Ifeel like the pervasive point of
(32:39):
view now is your child feelsgender dysphoria, you should
act, you should do something.
You should treat them medically.
You should help them out. And Ithink, I think my feeling is
there's a need for pause.
There's a need to really taketime and consideration before
you make a decision that youpotentially, hopefully. It's a
small potential, but what if youregret it later?
(33:02):
On all levels, if you don't doit or you do it, it's horrifying
what you're dealing with rightnow. But what I also want to
say, There's no such thing aspausing puberty. I really don't
understand these words thatthey're saying. I went through
female puberty. Look at me. Ilive as a dude. Nobody would
ever know any of it. And I knowthe difference between a male
(33:26):
becoming a female and a femalebecoming a male. Those are two
different spaces. It's muchharder for a female, for a male,
to become a female later on inlife. There's a lot more things
you have to deal with, a lotmore physical things, but you
have to also remember thattranssexualism also deals with
physical space, right? It's notit's the mental connected to the
(33:47):
physical. The mental has to betaken care of before the
physical. We're doing itbackwards now. We're literally
doing physical before we'redoing mental. And I just find
that to be so absurd on so manylevels. I mean, just slow down
people and let's see what'sgoing on here. And maybe I'm
wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in10 years, beauty blockers are
(34:07):
the best thing you could everget. I don't believe it, but
maybe, and maybe I'm right. Sowhatever that even means is we
all gotta come together aspeople and not be so divided in
our thought process around this.
And we all have to listen topeople like myself and older
people who have done this for along time, and we care about
these kids. We're not here totell you not to do it. We're
here to tell you to slow downand let's figure out maybe,
(34:30):
maybe we can get your kid out ofdysphoria. That would be the
most amazing thing ever, if wecan get your kid out of the
dysphoria. Because I feel likewhen we're putting the kids more
deeper into dysphoria when we'retelling them they're trans and
you got to take medication. CanI ask you? Bucha, I don't think
a lot of people understand whatit's like to live as a trans
male. What do you have to do? Ifyou don't mind me asking, yeah.
(34:52):
What kind of medications do youtake on on a regular basis?
Yes, so forever I have toinject. Testosterone. So I've
been injecting testosterone for32 years now, and I will say
that I've been very lucky. Knockon wood. Have not had a lot of
health problems, though I havehad health problems. Again,
being one of the first female tomales, what happened was I have
(35:17):
long term that's why biologymatters in this conversation. I
am a biological female. I didnot change my sex, and so when
I'm putting in testosterone at ahigher level, I'm an experiment,
because they didn't reallyunderstand and so what it did is
it fused my uterus and my cervixtogether, because I had all
(35:37):
these cramps, and thegynecologist has no clue what's
going on. I'm like, I havecramps. They're like, just they
would say that to me. Anyway,years later, my cervix and my
uterus fused together. Wecreated a sort of pocket of an
infection, and it burst one day,and I became septic, and I had
(35:59):
to be rushed to the emergency.
And they're like, man, youalmost died. Luckily, you know,
and we've never seen anythinglike this. And the doctors were,
like, 10 doctors were in theroom like, Whoa, dude. This
thing is insane. My point beingis that that was never spoken
about. So now we know that, butstill me being very outspoken as
I am, doctors are still nottalking about this when they
(36:21):
give their patients testosteroneas females. So that's the most
major thing that's happened tome. I have to continue to shoot
testosterone, uh, to keep mylevels right. Because as you
know, as a doctor, hormonelevels are very important
things. Menopause, all those Iwent through early menopause
that totally wreaked havoc on mymental state of being, but
literally understanding how tolevel my hormones and so that
(36:44):
that's a very important big partof being transsexual is hormonal
and understanding that and howto keep healthy in your in your
sort of regimen of hormonalusage, some people choose not to
do hormones anymore, but Ihaven't chosen to do that. I've
chosen to keep doing it becauseI feel better that way.
(37:07):
And in terms of surgery, I thinksomething else that isn't
discussed or understood thatmuch is how hard the recovery
after a double mastectomy is.
Was it hard in your experience?
My God,that's why I only and yes,
surgery, I only have my chest. Idid not do penis surgery for
many reasons, but mostly becauseit wasn't when I transitioned
(37:27):
years ago. It wasn't reallysomething that I chose to do
because it wasn't a functioningpenis. It still isn't a
functioning penis. In myopinion, I still wouldn't do it,
even if it was so that beingsaid, Because surgery is
hardcore on your body and so, sothat being said, when I got this
surgery, it was the first personto get this particular I got a
keyhole incision from a doctorhere in Los Angeles. He was
(37:49):
amazing. But I it was hard. Itwas hard you have these things
coming out, like, you know, youhave to leakage of the thing.
And it was insane. And I wasgoing through a really hard time
with my girlfriend at the time,because she was having a hard
time with me transitioningbecause we were gay women, and
she was like, you're lookinglike a gem queen. I was dealing
with my relationship fallingapart, which a lot of trans
(38:16):
people deal with. You know that,and it's hard to transition on
lots of levels, mentally,physically, relationship wise,
family wise. There's a lot ofthings we don't talk about that
you take on that why I say it'sa commitment to yourself and to
understand you have to do thisonly for you. But it was
difficult. It was hard for me.
(38:37):
It took me months to get overthat anesthesia stuff was
horrifying.
What I'm learning from you is Ifeel like there's just not one
path that's right for everybody.
It feels like a very individualexperience with a lot to
consider, a lot to take in, God,just everything. That's why I
keep saying this isn't it's notgoing to fix you, I think is
what I want to say. It's goingto give you, may need,
(38:59):
hopefully, a better life, butyou're still going to have to
deal with being that person youwere. You're still going to have
to deal with your biology.
You're still going to have todeal with not being able to go
into certain spaces. You know,this new idea that trans people
are admitted into everything,that's a bunch of BS, as far as
I'm concerned, that's the thingI keep telling the young people,
when you choose to transition,you're going to also have to
(39:22):
choose to give stuff up in yourlife. You don't get everything.
It's not a free pass to be this.
All of a sudden, everyone'sgoing to let trans people be in
those spaces. That's not how itworks. So how it works is you're
going to take care of yourself,but you're also going to
understand that the world mightnot like you and the world might
not want you in spaces and toyou have to be very mature.
That's why I think it takes amature person to transition,
because then you understand thepros and cons. It's not all Pro.
(39:44):
It's not there's cons to this100% there's things I had to
give up in my life, and there'sthings I have to navigate still
as a transsexual man who's afemale and doesn't have a penis
and can't go into the lockerroom and take my under off like
all the rest of the. Men, right?
Because it's not respectful forme to do that. It's
disrespectful for me to makepeople see my body when it's not
(40:07):
consensual, and it's not okay.
But I see this happening moretoday, especially from males to
females, you know, with gettingundressed in locker rooms and
showing their penises in frontof girls, that's just not okay.
It's not it seems very entitled,and on some level, you know, I'm
asking you to accept me. It'snot the other way around. I'm
asking you to let me function asthis person. And I think,
(40:29):
because I come to the world thatway, you all let me exist, and I
don't have a problem walking theworld. But
Buck, do you think this? Becausethis is what people say, and I
understand this point of view.
But they'll say, if you knowthat person feels like they're a
female, does it bother you less?
Can you be accepting if you knowthat they feel like they're a
female? Well,of course you, of course you
(40:50):
can. But here's the deal. For atranssexual person, they have to
come to this table too. It can'tjust be like, I'm expecting you
to like, bend over backwards forme, if that makes sense. You
know, that's with everything inthe world. It's called
coexisting. That's whycoexisting is such an important
word me and you have to meet inthe middle of this thing right
here. And yes, for you to see meas a man, I also have to
(41:12):
appreciate that you understandwhere I'm coming from, that I am
a biological female, that I'mnot lying, that I'm not a man,
okay? I look like a man. I wantto be a man. And when I'm honest
to you, swear to God, Jessica,everyone loves me for it. I
don't have any issues with it'sthe trans activists that get mad
at me for saying that. And I'mlike, why I'm not I'm not gonna
lie to people. So I does thatmake sense? Like you've really
(41:35):
got to be honest as atranssexual person, and once
you're honest, and I proved it,the world loves me. Issues
walking the world, and peoplecome up to me in airports, oh my
god, fuck. I love you. Like,that's awesome. I couldn't ask
for even in the men's room,like, Bucha. I'm just like,
because I'm not asking, I'm so Idon't really, in fact, I am
(41:57):
asking. I'm just saying, like,look, here I am. If it's
uncomfortable, I'll leave, I'llleave. I'll be the first one to
leave. We don't even need tohave that. But I don't see that
respect happening. I feel likethere's if you believe someone's
a woman, then that's great thatthat means that you're awesome
and you're willing to have anopen mind, but it but some
people aren't whatI what I genuinely respect and
admire so much about you is Ifeel like you talk about the
(42:20):
transgender issue with a humanlens, you come at it with an
honest, human perspective. And Ifeel like what's what's tricky
is now it's become so political,and I want to understand it from
a from a human, loving,compassionate capacity,
right? Excellent, thank you. Andthat's what most people want.
(42:41):
I'll be honest, I've been doingthis. Doing this for a long
time. It's only been in the lastfive or so years that it got all
nasty and political, and I readin the paper and they're talking
about transgender we're gonnaget rid of. I'm like, wow,
really? Thanks, trans activists.
They never talked about thatbefore, ever. Now, that's really
the fault of the transcommunities. Nobody else's
fault. When you starttransitioning children in the
(43:02):
public eye and you see familieson Tiktok with four trans kids,
you are asking for problems.
Okay, those should be privatefamily matters that should not
be talked about on Tiktok, andyour whole family is trans, and
mom's trans, Dad's trans kidsare trans. No wonder people
think we're win nuts. I'm like,okay, there goes our all the
(43:23):
rights we fought for. Peopledidn't care about us before.
They really didn't, because thewhole point of transitioning is
to get back into the world. It'snot to disrupt the world. And
all of a sudden I feel like allthese trans actors want to
disrupt the system, right? Sothat becomes a political space.
This is not political, by theway. It's just not political.
(43:45):
It's and I want to hang out withyou. I want to sit at the table
with you. I don't want to bedifferent than you. I
can totally hear that.
Thank you so much for yourhonest, genuine perspective on
this. I think it's reallyhelpful to hear. And I'm just
curious so your overall feelingon children and the trans
community. If you could share amessage to parents on your
(44:06):
overall feeling about childrenand the trans community, what?
What would it be? What do youthink parents need to hear? What
do you what do you wish parentsknew?
Well, first, what I wish is thatwe'd stop saying trans kids. I
really just wish that Okay,number one. Number two, I wish
you would stop. DidI make that mistake? Sorry.
I apologize. Not you, not you.
Everyone doesn't even I justsaid it, right? So I don't like
pigeon holding children, okay? Idon't like putting them into the
(44:30):
space. And let's just be honesthere. Kids love accolades,
right? They love it when my kidplays a piano, everyone's like,
well, you're so amazing. Soguess what? He plays a piano all
the time because he likeshearing everyone say, oh, so
kids love that. When kids aretrans now they're popular and
they're cool. So I think that'sour first mistake. I never said
that there could be trans kids.
(44:52):
Okay, these, but I like to callthem kids with dysphoria.
They're kids with dysphoria, andsome kids will be able to live
with them. For the rest of theirlives, some kids might need to
eventually transition. So what Iwant parents to hear is this, I
think, first off, don't go inthose trans parent groups.
You're making a huge mistake,because I've been in them, and
they're very one sided andthey're very mean, and if you
(45:15):
don't go along with the agenda,they will say so many mean
things to you. You don't needany of that. You need people who
are loving, caring, who arehonest to you, who can give you
factual information, and you canmake the right choice as a
parent. So I highly suggest youdon't pigeon on yourself in
that. And I think you have tolook at all aspects of the
conversation. And I also thinkyou need to get your kid into
(45:35):
therapy, 100% into therapy, andI think you're being a great
parent by even just having theconversation, okay, that number
one right there is justaccepting the fact that my child
might be different is amazingand makes you an awesome parent.
But please don't just take oneperson's word for it, because
all kids are different, and yourkid might be that kid who could
grow up and be completely okaywith it, just maybe let him wear
(45:57):
boy clothes or girl clothes fora while and see what happens
from there. Right? And don'tmake a big deal out of it.
Everybody's making a big dealout of it. Like, just let your
kid, right? You understand whatI mean. Like, stop it.
I think when I when I pictureparents, it's like, we the goal
of parents. I think number oneis just to stay loving and
caring and supportive. And whatI'm hearing from you is it
(46:19):
doesn't have to be makingdecisions that may be
irreversible, 100%irreversible. I don't care what
anybody says they are ear I'veinterviewed over 100 D
transitioners, ones who'vetransitioned from the age of 10
to ones who transitioned at 16.
You cannot change what you putin those kids. If you are doing
medical intervention with thesekids, you can't reverse it ever,
(46:41):
and there will be damage done tothese children. So, so what if
he's crying in the room and hewants to wear a binder? Oh,
well, guess what? You can't havethose Nike shoes.
No, it's no is a good thing.
Sometimes, amen to that.
I have a teenager myself who,yeah, she hearing a bit of No,
(47:02):
she doesn't like it, but I knowit's
good for her. No, it's like oneof the most important things a
parent can say. I mean, I hatedit when I was a kid. We all did,
right? But as you grow older andyou realize that it's just part
of being a parent, you got tomake boundaries around kids. And
you know, like, now, trans is acool thing to be, let's just be
honest. We have to have thatconversation. That's why I'm
scared that some parents arebeing manipulated into this
(47:25):
process, right? And that's theother thing. I don't want you to
be manipulated into it, becausemaybe your kid isn't, maybe they
are, right? It's a big question,and you're dealing with a lot of
stuff as a parent, and it breaksmy heart, but at the same time,
step back a minute anddisassociate with this whole
trans thing. I think a lot ofparents are looking for help,
(47:46):
and then they get sucked intothis whole sort of transparent
thing, and it becomes a very,very dangerous space for you to
be inBucha. You're so amazing. I'm so
grateful for your voice. So forparents that are listening.
Maybe they know somebody who'sstruggling feeling gender
dysphoria, or they have a childwho's feeling gender dysphoric,
in addition to finding a goodtherapist, a community, anything
(48:09):
else that you recommend thatthey reach out to for support. I
mean, I'm thinking you, how canthey find you and other sources
that may be supportive?
Yeah, I mean, so So I don't knowif you know of Gen spec, they're
a great organization. Gen specorg, I think it is also therapy
first is an excellentorganization. Of all my friends,
(48:30):
they're all great therapists.
They care about they're not antitrans at all. They want to help.
They want to some of them are detransition therapists, like it's
a great organization. So Ihighly recommend those
organizations. I also, if youneed to get me, I'm on every
platform that's out there,YouTube, Instagram, X, I answer
all my emails. I might not getyou right away. I care about
(48:51):
you, and if you need any kind ofresources, I have them all. So
again, just you know I love thatyou care about your kid. But
what I don't like is that I feelsometimes you're you're being
manipulated as a parent. And ifyou're vulnerable right now as a
parent, you're so vulnerable,and instead of us understanding
the vulnerability you are as aparent, we're politicizing your
(49:12):
vulnerability, vulnerability.
That's hard work to say, and Idon't like it, so I want to be
here to help you as an oldertranssexual person. Bucha,
thank you so much. You are trulya gem, and I'm so grateful to
know you, and thank you so muchfor this conversation. Thanks.
Thanks. Dr Jessica, thank youfor listening, and I hope you
enjoyed this week's episode ofAsk. Dr Jessica, also, if you
(49:35):
could take a moment and leave afive star review, wherever it is
you listen to podcasts, I wouldgreatly appreciate it. It really
makes a difference to help thispodcast grow. You can also
follow me on Instagram at ask DrJessica. See you next Monday.
You.
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