January 20, 2025 • 37 mins
Are you carrying emotional baggage that's weighing you down? This game-changing episode reveals why forgiveness might be the self-care revolution you never knew you needed. Meet Dara McKinley, a spiritual teacher and psychology expert who discovered the transformative power of forgiveness through her own unexpected crisis.
Despite years of professional expertise, Dara found herself stuck – until a breakthrough moment changed everything. Her story will resonate deeply with anyone who's ever thought "I just can't let this go" or "Why should I be the one to forgive?"
You'll discover:
- Why forgiveness has nothing to do with letting someone off the hook (and everything to do with your own freedom)
- The surprising link between unresolved resentment and your physical well-being
- How to handle relationships with people who refuse to acknowledge their impact
- Practical strategies for setting boundaries while working through forgiveness
Perfect for women navigating complex relationships, career transitions, or family dynamics, this conversation goes beyond surface-level advice to explore how forgiveness can unlock your intuition and reshape your future. If you're ready to release the emotional weight you've been carrying, this episode is your invitation to freedom.
Where to find Dara McKinley:
https://howtoforgive.com/
https://www.instagram.com/daramckinley/
_________________________________________
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michele Folan (00:04):
Health, wellness, fitness and everything in
between.
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
I'm your host, Michele Folan,and this is Asking for a Friend.
The truth is, we all havesomeone or something to forgive,
(00:25):
perhaps even ourselves.
We know it's good to forgive,but we might not know how to do
it.
In 2012, after facing apersonal challenge that her
extensive skills in educationcouldn't resolve, Dara McKinley
searched online for forgivenesshow-to and was only met by a lot
(00:45):
of why one should forgive.
When a logical path came to herand after completing it, she
felt peaceful and free for thefirst time in three years, this
epiphany led her to dedicateherself to researching and
teaching this powerful concept,helping others process stuck
emotions and move forward withpassion and clarity.
(01:06):
Dara McKinley, welcome toAsking for a Friend.
Thank you, Michele.
Thank you for having me.
I was so intrigued when I thinkof you as a publicist that
reached out to me about youbeing on the podcast and I read
maybe a few sentences into yourbio and said, ah, this is a
(01:31):
topic that we have not reallycovered on the podcast at length
, and I think for my audience,Dara, that now that most of them
are probably 50 plus, we allhave been in a situation where
we have had to forgive or shouldhave forgiven.
(01:52):
I should preface that so.
But first of all, I want tohear a little bit more about you
and kind of how you got to thisplace where you are right now.
Dara McKinley (02:14):
Yes.
So I was born a very spirituallittle girl and went on to study
spirituality and psychology.
I have a graduate degree incontemplative psychology, which
is essentially Buddhistpsychology, and just have always
been interested in alternativehealing methods and mainstream
healing methods and really justalways had my eye on what really
heals, what really helps aperson recover.
That was always the filter thatI assessed everything with.
(02:36):
So, of course, I heard aboutforgiveness from my earliest
days.
My mother comes from a Catholicfamily, so it was definitely
the word was used in ourhousehold a lot and, as I like
examined it more and more as Igot older, I could never seem to
make it work in a practical way, though I thought the idea was
(02:57):
gorgeous.
You know that the key tohappiness is to be able to love
our enemies.
So here I am.
It's now the early 2000s.
I have an idea for a business.
In my naive enthusiasm, I jumpin with business partners who I
would ultimately be incompatiblewith, but the business takes
(03:19):
off and so we basically justendure each other for as long as
we can.
And then, in 2009, things fallapart and I am pushed out and
lose my share of the business.
And when this moment happens.
I'm half relieved because ithad been so stressful you know
navigating these relationshipsand I'm half heartbroken because
(03:40):
the business was my idea and ithad brought me a lot of joy.
And so I thought to myself wow,Dara, this is a huge blow.
But you've been studyingpsychology and spirituality for
two decades.
You have the skills to getthrough this.
You're going to focus on yoursignificant relationships, on
gratitude.
You're going to recreate yourlife.
You're going to process youremotions and you will resurrect.
(04:02):
And I did that for three yearsand definitely I, you know, was
able to move forward.
But I would notice, when I waswashing the dishes or folding
laundry, that I still had anegative narrative about what
had happened looping through myhead and it kind of it had the
themes of like that was so wrong.
(04:23):
You know, like I deservejustice.
You know things like that.
And as this is happening, Ibegin to slowly slide into a
mystery illness that was likeinsomnia, fatigue, anxiety, and
the doctors can't figure outwhat's wrong with me.
And I have a three-year-old anda six-year-old and I start to
get very concerned and upset,which is making the symptoms
worse, and I basically juststart spiraling into a hole and
(04:49):
I definitely would neverdescribe myself as psychic, but
I'm very intuitive and I havealways said that when I hit rock
bottom moments, I just have thegift of imploring a sign or a
message, you know.
And so here I was hitting thisrock bottom moment and so I, you
know, someone might say it's acome to Jesus moment, you know.
(05:09):
So I kind of get it down on myknees and I'm like I am freaked
out to my core.
I need help getting out of this.
I need a sign, I need somethingto.
You know, show me how to healthis situation.
And the message I got back wasto forgive.
And, like a lot of people whenthey hear that message, I did
(05:30):
not like it.
I, um, I, like the innerteenager in me, kind of rolled
her eyes and thought like oh,did you know, though, right away
that who you were supposed toforgive?
Michele Folan (05:44):
You did yeah.
Crystal clear?
You did Okay.
Dara McKinley (05:48):
Yeah, that was probably.
My first thought was yeah, I dohave something to forgive.
And then my next thought wasbut I don't want this to be the
answer to my problems.
And so one thing to reallyilluminate right now is that so
many people have that reactionto the suggestion of forgiveness
, and I was defining forgivenessas pardoning.
(06:08):
So when I heard that wordforgive, immediately it was like
let these people off the hookand you will get better, and
that anyway.
So I'll go a little deeper intothe story because so, anyway, I
reject the message.
But then it was so clear thatwithin an hour I said okay, dara
, get online.
(06:29):
It's now 2012, october 2012.
And I was like get online, findwhoever wrote some how to
forgive a five-step thing andfollow it and see what happens.
You're an open person who likesto research new ideas and new
modalities.
You've nothing to lose, checkit out.
So I typed in how to forgiveand 99.9% of what came up was
(06:53):
why a person should forgive.
And then the teeny bit I couldfind on some forum here and
there where someone like me wasgoing but how do you do it?
The message they were gettingback was you just do it.
So I was like, wow, I closed mycomputer and I was like, but
how do you do it?
The message they were gettingback was you just do it.
So I was like, wow, I closed mycomputer and I was like, oh, my
goodness, like I can't just dothis, like I really need
directions and I'm on my ownright now, like there's no one
(07:16):
who's going to give them to me.
And then I thought, okay, you,you know, you have studied a lot
of things like think about this, you can do this.
And the question I asked myself,which was the question that
would step me onto theforgiveness path, was okay, dara
, you've been running a negativenarrative for three years.
It's getting you nowhere, it'spotentially making you sick.
(07:38):
What is the opposite of thatnarrative?
And my answer to that questionwas oh, I would bless this whole
situation with the highest love.
And upon answering thatquestion, I took my first step.
There's a lot more that cameafter it, but three weeks later
I felt an inner peace I hadn'tfelt in three years.
(07:59):
I was completely clear ofresentment and emotional burden
and I was completely wowed.
And I remember thinking like,wow, forgiveness is legitimate,
like it's for real, like itworks.
And my second thought was andthat wasn't pardoning.
Why does everyone sayforgiveness is pardoning?
(08:19):
And that was that.
I had that thought and then Ijust thought I'd had my own
little personal win and I movedforward with my life, just
grateful that I had figured itout.
Michele Folan (08:28):
So, first of all, what you experienced is not
unlike what other peopleexperience in the realm of.
I got dissed or hurt by someoneor a group of people or
whatever, and we let it eat atus, and so I totally see why
(08:54):
after three years, you spiraledand it started to affect your
health.
I really believe that we cancarry those burdens with us and
they can eat us from the insideout, no doubt, and the fact that
you recognize that was such agift because it allowed you to
pull yourself out.
(09:14):
But I have to ask this questionbecause you said that
forgiveness is not necessarilypardoning, and I think, looking
at it that way, it seems that itthat would be easier, because
then it doesn't put so much onuson us.
Does that make sense?
Dara McKinley (09:35):
Yes, and so first , I invite people to rethink
forgiveness.
That's one of the big pieces ofmy work.
And let's just say forgivenessis pardoning, right?
That definition is deeplyembedded in the Western mind,
correct, and you know, if anyoneshows up five minutes late or
10 minutes late to a meeting,we're going to say oh, you know,
(09:58):
please forgive me.
And so forgiveness is pardoningis a definition that's not
going anywhere.
However, I invite people tothink, rethink that definition
when a rupture or betrayal ishuge.
And I'm adding a new definition.
I'm inviting people to considerthe definition that forgiveness
(10:20):
is actually one's ability toapply unconditional love.
And when I say unconditionallove, that can be God's love,
Jesus's love, love of Allah,love of the Buddha, love of the
goddess, divine love.
However you want to define this, every benevolent spiritual
tradition and religion has coreteachings of unconditional love.
(10:40):
It is a very real thing that Icould talk to you for five
minutes about and say more abouthow that is real.
And the second part of mydefinition is one's ability to
identify exactly what needs it.
Second part of my definition isone's ability to identify
exactly what needs it and oncethose two plates spin,
restoration and healing occur,and then pardoning, having
(11:00):
compassion, ceasing anger,letting go of the past all
become these organic outcomes.
So I feel like mainstreamforgiveness definitions are
putting the cart before thehorse and when someone's
experiencing as you justdescribed like a lot of strong
emotions because of a huge dissthat happened to them, having
(11:24):
compassion and just letting goand just don't be angry, those
are tall orders when someone'sjust trying to survive a strong
emotional swell from somethingbig that just happened.
So when we look at forgivenessas not our ability to
unconditionally love, but ourability to enlist unconditional
(11:44):
love, just as you said, it's notour responsibility to be a
miraculous person in anextremely difficult time, but we
can enlist something that willhelp us navigate and restore
ourselves after an extremelydifficult time.
So I teach people thatforgiveness is a delegation.
Michele Folan (12:06):
Okay, In some of the reading that I did, you have
two definitions interpersonaland intrapersonal forgiveness.
What is the difference?
Dara McKinley (12:16):
So interpersonal forgiveness is definitely like
the mainstream definitions thatwe're fed and so and then here's
the ideal scenario that thosedefinitions are kind of speaking
to Two people have a conflict,they have an honest conversation
about how they were affected.
Let's say there's one personwho was more careless.
(12:37):
They own it and takeresponsibility for it and they
apologize, and then that personforgives.
This is this beautiful, perfectlittle feedback loop.
You know that where forgivenessis, this beautiful thing that
people can do?
So that's interpersonalforgiveness.
Intrapersonal forgiveness isbetween a person, their
(13:00):
connection to divine lovehowever they define it and their
personal truth about whathappened.
Because and intrapersonalforgiveness is so important,
because those healingconversations often don't happen
for a lot of people A lot ofpeople don't get the apology
they deserve.
Sometimes the person is nolonger living Right, like.
(13:23):
Sometimes the externalenvironment is not going to
treat us how we deserve to betreated or give us what we need
in order to heal and moveforward right, and so does that
leave us out of the forgivenessgame.
Michele Folan (13:36):
No, right, okay, I've got gosh.
My brain is going 100 miles anhour here, so as I'm seeing this
.
So the forgiveness piece or theunconditional love?
Are we having unconditionallove for the situation, for
ourselves or for the otherperson?
Dara McKinley (14:00):
All of it.
Michele Folan (14:01):
Okay, all right.
Dara McKinley (14:02):
All of it?
Yeah, and there's.
So when I teach people though,like every situation has unique
facets, right, every story isdifferent.
And when I say the second partof my definition is a person's
ability to identify what needsunconditional love, so I teach
people how to examine their,what happened to them and how
(14:24):
it's continued to be stuck intheir body and playing out in
their present moment, andidentifying exactly what that is
so that that can be connectedwith unconditional love.
Michele Folan (14:36):
Okay, what do you see as the biggest obstacles in
people's ability forforgiveness?
So you work with clients.
Dara McKinley (14:49):
Right.
Michele Folan (14:49):
What do you see as the biggest obstacle that
people run into?
Dara McKinley (14:53):
Well, I think that people thinking that
forgiveness is letting othersoff the hook.
I think the pardoningdefinition is actually one of
the biggest obstacles.
That's one of if I, if someonetakes my course and I just get
them for six weeks to deeplyreconsider the definition of
(15:13):
forgiveness, to me that's likesuccessful, because it's so deep
inside all of us.
And then I also think that fora lot of people and I came up
against this that night inOctober 2012, is that I was
right, yeah, was right, yeah.
(15:39):
And so you know I say to peopleyou are right, what happened,
what happened, should not havehappened, but forgive anyway,
meaning like clear it out ofyour body anyway.
When I stepped forward, so I hadthat answer like, oh, I will
bless this situation with divinelove.
And so I said, okay, let me,let me try to do that right now,
let me check out how to makethat happen.
And as I went deeper into whatthat would look like, a voice
(16:00):
inside my head kind of cameforth and said, no, no, no,
you're completely, you know,you've been wronged, like you
can't bless them with thehighest love.
And it was so interesting to mebecause in this moment, I saw
that voice so clearly and I saidoh wow.
I said, hey, I've been listeningto you for three years and I
(16:25):
need to try something differentright now.
So can you please just stepaside and if what I'm about to
try doesn't work, you and I cantalk again, but right now I
don't.
To try doesn't work.
You and I can talk again, butright now I don't think you're
getting me anywhere.
So I had this whole kind oflike inner dialogue.
But I think a lot of peoplestruggle with the fact that what
they really were wronged andthen they really think again
(16:47):
that forgiveness is lettingsomeone who wronged them off the
hook.
And so once I went through thiswhole process, I just started
observing mainstream narrativesand people who really had a
negative view of forgiveness andI started to see like, oh wow,
all these definitions areactually creating an obstacle.
Michele Folan (17:08):
Yeah, so, first of all, I think forgiveness is
really about healing, right, andnow I'm starting to see it as a
form of self-care.
Right?
Because the more we carry thisstuff around with us, it can
really take you downhill.
My other call out in this, asyou were speaking, was do you
(17:31):
ever have to ask people I'mhearing you and I'm hearing the
situation and how you werewronged but does that person
ever have to take some onus forthe situation if they too are
part of the problem?
Dara McKinley (17:48):
So I actually think what you're speaking to is
what I call radicalself-responsibility, and I
actually think it's anincredibly liberating, uber
healthy thing to do to take 100%responsibility for our
experience and how wecontributed to the creation of
(18:12):
some difficult situation.
With that said, you don't needto do that in order to forgive,
and first of all, because if youstep onto the forgiveness path
to heal and restore, you kind ofare doing that.
You're taking responsibilityfor your emotional health, even
though you might not be a personwho is drawn to really, you
(18:35):
know, scrutinizing all the waysthat you may have contributed to
the situation.
So it's not it's not necessaryin order to forgive, but I think
it is a very worthwhile pursuit.
Just personally and like interms of like all the things
that heal us, I think it's oneof the most beautiful things
that also heal us, butforgiveness is not dependent on
(18:59):
that.
Michele Folan (18:59):
Okay, and then we all know that one person who
it's never their fault, theywould never apologize because
they for some reason don't thinkit's ever their issue, it's
always somebody else's issue.
And so I think that this isreally important when you have
someone like that in your life,because you will just go in
(19:23):
circles with someone who justcontinually will never take
responsibility for their actions, just continually will never
take responsibility for theiractions, so for you to have that
ability to forgive or bless thesituation with unconditional
love, as you say, then it reallycan take that monkey off your
(19:44):
back.
Dara McKinley (19:45):
Right, like if you're in a marriage or
something with someone who justnever owns their part of the
equation.
Is that what you're saying?
Michele Folan (19:55):
Yeah, now, that's not my situation, so I just
want to be very clear.
Dara McKinley (19:59):
I'm just trying to illuminate the details a
little bit more.
Michele Folan (20:04):
Oh God, no, but yeah, we make that clear.
That's not.
I'm not talking ill of mywonderful spouse.
No, when I said you, I meant aperson.
Dara McKinley (20:16):
But I have had a lot of women interested not, you
know, whatever women, men whoare in marriages or
relationships that arechallenging and what I mean and
it's kind of the nature ofmarriage and relationships,
quite honestly, long-term onesthat you know they hit very
challenging points who have donemy work and have been able to
(20:40):
create a lot of openness andspace and let go of a lot of
resentment that was accruingtowards their partner.
Again, I don't know if theirpartner had the exact character
that you're describing right now, but I know that these people
felt very stuck at the time andjust felt like they were living
in a household that was just hada lot of resentment circulating
(21:03):
.
Michele Folan (21:03):
Yeah, we, you know, we've addressed that
resentment piece on differentpodcast episodes.
Dara McKinley (21:10):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (21:11):
And it really until you can have that
conversation or be able to letgo of some of that.
It can be daunting right in arelationship.
Dara McKinley (21:24):
Yeah, and set boundaries, like so much of a
healthy relationship, is thecourage to set a boundary, and
that's not an easy task.
Michele Folan (21:33):
Yeah, hey, Dara, we're going to take a quick
break, okay, and we'll be rightback.
And when we come back, I wantto talk about if it's okay not
to forgive.
Yes, it is 2025 and I think I'mjust about recovered from the
crazy holiday festivities.
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(21:58):
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(22:21):
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(22:43):
Are you ready?
Reach out via my email in theshow notes or DM me on social
media.
All right, everybody, we'reback, okay.
So back to my question beforewe took the break Is it okay to
not forgive?
Dara McKinley (23:01):
Yeah, I don't.
It's really a personal choice.
It's a matter of it's really apersonal choice.
It's a matter of deciding like,oh wow, I am carrying around an
emotional burden or a lot ofnegative thoughts and I don't
want to do it anymore, andthat's up to the individual to
see that and decide that forthemselves.
(23:23):
So I don't, if someone doesn'twant to forgive, that's, in my
view, that's up to them.
You know, we all have to makeour decisions and for some, I
think it's one of the mostvaluable things that a person
can do.
I know that.
I want to.
I think that when we have a lotof emotional burdens and
(23:43):
negative narratives, I think itblocks, like our truest, most
authentic, most beautiful self.
You know, it's like why, whenwe're on our, you know, taking
our last breaths and on ourdeathbed, I think when we say
like, oh, wow, I lived inalignment with my truest, most
beautiful, authentic self,that's what we're going to feel
really proud of, and so I thinkforgiveness helps make sure that
(24:08):
happens.
So, but if a person doesn'twant to forgive and again, I'm
not defining it as pardoning, soI'm defining it as healing, as
you said so perfectly in thebeginning of the conversation.
So if a person doesn't want toheal, that's their choice.
Michele Folan (24:24):
Yeah, I guess there's, you know, is there some
kind of a choice?
Yeah, I guess there's.
You know, is there some kind ofa unforgivable barometer out
there that I guess people haveto make that decision for
themselves if they do want tocarry something with them for
their whole life.
I mean, that just seems awfulto me.
You know, now that we've hadthis conversation, I think about
(24:44):
carrying something until I'm 80or 90 years old.
I just don't think I want thatin my life, right.
Dara McKinley (24:53):
Right, it affects everything.
It affects our bodies, itaffects our relationships, it
affects our ability to accessour intuition, which is another.
Like, one of the best thingsabout being alive is having a
good, strong you know strongconnection to our intuition.
So there's so many.
Ultimately, it creates a senseof inner peace in the body, but
there's so many secondarybenefits.
Michele Folan (25:14):
Are we all wired to forgive?
Do you think that humanity iswired?
Dara McKinley (25:19):
Yes, we are.
We have two hemispheres of thebrain.
The left hemisphere, which isthe one that's cultivated in
Western society, is aboutnavigating the external part of
being human, and the righthemisphere of the brain, which
unfortunately is relegated toweekends and holidays in Western
(25:41):
culture, is about navigatingour inner realm, and so when I
say that, what I mean by thatit's about processing emotions,
it's about our spiritualconnection, it's about how to
use imagination in a restorativeway, it's about our creative
process, and so that hemisphereof the brain is very atrophied
(26:02):
in Western culture, to the pointwhere people don't understand
that they actually have all theskills they need.
They just need someone to teachthem how to bring them together
to form this winning team thatcreates forgiveness.
So you know again, I teach acourse, and that's one of the
things I teach people is thatthey we are anatomically
(26:24):
designed to heal, restore andregenerate, and like considering
that we all have very strongrites of passage like thank
goodness we have this.
Michele Folan (26:34):
Right, oh, no kidding, no kidding.
And then I wrote this downbecause I wanted to ask you
about this after we first spokeForgiveness in families versus,
say, friends or coworkers.
Is there a different processthat people go through when it's
like a family member, whetherit's a spouse or, say, a sibling
(26:58):
or parent God forbid or if it'ssomething an issue that you
have with friends or say,coworkers.
Dara McKinley (27:08):
An issue that you have with friends or, say,
coworkers.
Well, I think what you'respeaking to right now is that
there are three timeframes thata person can forgive.
And the first one is calledepisodic, and that's just an
incident that happened in thepast, that's no longer in your
present life.
And then the next one isenduring, and enduring is
something that you wake up to,that you have to deal with every
(27:29):
day, and that can be an illnessor a family member, or
co-parenting with a difficult ex, you know an addiction.
There's so many.
You know problems that a personcan wake up to and have to face
.
And then epic is when somethingwent on for a really long
period of time.
It's in the past, but it wenton for so long that it can feel
daunting to forgive.
(27:50):
But people who have an epictime frame behind them, like a
childhood for example, they verymuch want to forgive, but then
they can get very overwhelmedand think, oh, too much has
happened.
You know I can't do it but,speaking to your question, when
we have, you know, friends andco-workers like we can, it's
easier to create the boundariesaround people that we have, you
know, friends and coworkers likewe can, it's easier to create
(28:10):
the boundaries around peoplethat we have like proximity with
and even end thoserelationships and switch jobs
right.
But with family that's a littletrickier.
Family is more likely than anyof the others to end up in the
enduring timeframe Like we'renot going to abandon our
children ever.
Or you know, like I mean maybewe would.
(28:32):
You know, like there's I'm surethere's some scenarios where
that could happen, but that'snot.
We really we're really devotedto that relationship no matter
what.
So that's like that would landin the enduring timeframe.
And in the enduring timeframe Itell people to see forgiveness
as an ongoing process that isgoing to give them a lifeboat, a
(28:53):
life jacket, supplies, is goingto fortify them to navigate
this difficult thing that's intheir lives.
Forgiveness sometimes I getpeople coming to me saying can I
just forgive?
This horrible thing justhappened to me?
Can I just just you know,forgive this horrible thing just
happened to me.
Can I just forgive it away?
You know they want to just havesome like magic snap of the
(29:13):
fingers that will make thisdifficult thing disappear, and
that's not how it works.
And I definitely thinkforgiveness creates really
beautiful, what some might callmiracles, but really beautiful
situations that we could nothave orchestrated, you know,
with our own will and control.
However, we all have acurriculum in this life and it's
(29:37):
unique to every person, andit's really a matter of
navigating those difficultpoints of that curriculum in a
way that we, when it's all saidand done, we can feel really
good about and that we know wedid our best.
And that we, when it's all saidand done, we can feel really
good about and that we know wedid our best.
And it doesn't mean it's notgoing to be messy, because it is
, and it's not.
It's going to be challenging,you know, but we want to know
(29:59):
that we made the highest, thatwe connected with the highest
outcome and we operated from ourhighest minds and our highest
selves.
Right, yes, and that's whatforgiveness empowers us to do.
Michele Folan (30:11):
Yeah, can you share, like a client, success
story?
Dara McKinley (30:16):
Yeah, one of the ones that was most poignant to
me was a woman who grew up witha mentally ill mother and, you
know, ended up in and out offoster situations and just
really had a tumultuouschildhood and she ended up going
into the healing arts herselfand becoming a trauma therapist
and was trying everything tomake peace with her mom and, you
(30:41):
know, I think in her earlythirties came across my work and
tried it and was verysuccessful with it and was able
to make peace with her motherand then ended up and this is
what I was just saying ended uphaving this beautiful encounter
with her mom.
And her mom really is likeseverely mentally ill.
Where it's you can't evenreally like talk to her, you
(31:03):
know, cause she's not present.
But she ended up having thislike beautiful chance encounter
with her mom after she forgave,where they really were able to
look each other in the eyes andlike have a heart connection and
it was very, you know, fleetingbut it was undeniable and she
was said that she absolutelyknew that forgiveness cleared
the path for her to have thatexperience.
(31:25):
So that's one of my favoritestories, yeah.
Michele Folan (31:28):
Yeah, oh, that's really nice, that's heartwarming
.
Really you would hate for, youknow, a vibrant 30 year old
woman to have to go through thatbut to be able to move on in
life and have all those yearsahead of her where she can be
free of that anger and sometimeshate.
Dara McKinley (31:51):
Yeah, and that's an example of the epic timeframe
as well, and that forgiveness.
People who have a hugeexperience behind them, like a
childhood or a mentally illmother, for example, you can
forgive those things, like.
I want to kind of say thatclearly because I know it feels
unforgivable to a lot of peoplebecause so many little things
(32:12):
happened, but once you learn howto use the right hemisphere of
the brain, it really leads youthrough, you know, and it really
wants things to be resolved,and so it's really just about
learning how to use thosemuscles, which is, you know, the
industry you're in yeah Well,yeah, we, I work in different
(32:33):
muscles for sure.
Michele Folan (32:35):
So what kind of training do you offer clients?
Do you have different programsavailable?
Dara McKinley (32:40):
Right.
So I have a six week course thatanyone can purchase at any time
and that basically gives youthis very clear, step by step,
and I want people to graduatethe course like really feeling
like they had a lasting,transformational experience that
is going to be with them forthe rest of their lives and that
(33:01):
, should they hit those lowpoints, that they have this
incredible resource that theycan call upon and use and apply.
And I also do bi-weekly energymeditations because I attract a
lot of people who are in acrisis you know who and I always
think to myself like, yes,forgiveness can help you, but
(33:23):
when you're in a crisis, it'syou really just need to focus on
calming yourself down.
It's not about learning someskill, even though once you have
that skill, it'll always helpyou.
You know it's just when you're,when you're emotionally in an
acute period.
You just need to figure out howto decompress it.
So these energy meditations, Ioffer them biweekly and they're
great for anyone who is reallyin a difficult moment.
(33:48):
And then I also teach people.
I have a small PDF that's aboutwhen you're struggling with a
lot of negative thinking orintrusive thoughts.
It know teaching people how tojust three basic skills for
having an emotionally healthysystem, because emotions are
just an anatomical system thatneeds to move and a lot of
(34:11):
people clamp down on them, rightand or feel fear, fearful of
them.
So it's just like three veryfriendly ways to just tend to
your emotional system, the waysomeone would brush their teeth
every morning.
Michele Folan (34:24):
Okay, and you know it's nice if it can be that
simple for us to work throughthese things, if you have a
process or a framework that youcan do this yourself, because I
guess you just never know whensomething like that is going to
come up in your life.
Dara McKinley (34:41):
Right, I have yet to meet someone who hasn't,
especially, as you said, in 40sand 50s.
At that stage of the game,something huge has happened, and
it's just the human experience.
Michele Folan (34:56):
Right, I do have kind of a personal question for
you.
What is one of your corepillars of self-care?
What do you do for yourself?
Dara McKinley (35:05):
Well, I take really good care of my emotional
realm.
I'm very body aware, so I stayvery present to whether I'm
feeling congested.
That's how I describe it.
It's like I don't want to getemotionally congested.
The last thing the world needsis another emotionally congested
person.
The last thing the world needsis another emotionally congested
person.
So I pay very close attentionand I make sure that my
(35:27):
emotional realm is circulatingand, in terms of your realm, I
very much eat healthy, becausethat very much affects emotions
and so I prioritize that.
Michele Folan (35:38):
Yeah, and you know, I've just read oh gosh,
it's a doctor on Instagram.
He's very well thought of, he'sout of Cleveland Clinic, but he
was talking about the gut brainconnection and what a strong
connection there is between yourgut health and your brain and
(35:59):
it's really fascinating.
So I love the fact that youlike to eat healthy, because you
know that that does help withnot just how your body is
feeling but also your brain, sojust really cool.
Yes, Dara McKinley, where canthe listeners find you?
Dara McKinley (36:15):
Howtoforgive.
com and how to forgive is what Ityped in that fateful night in
October 2012.
And then, in 2014, I looked upthe domain and there it was,
sitting there waiting for me.
So, um, I'm also on Instagramand Facebook and uh yeah, all
right, it was meant to happen.
Michele Folan (36:32):
If it was two years and that that domain was
there, it was yours to take.
That's awesome.
That's a great story.
Dara McKinley, I reallyappreciate you being here.
Dara McKinley (36:44):
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Michele Folan (36:47):
Hey, thanks for tuning in.
Please rate and review the showwhere you listen to the podcast
.
And did you know that Askingfor a Friend is available now to
listen on YouTube?
You can subscribe to thepodcast there as well.
Your support is appreciated andit helps others find the show.
Thank you.
Health, wellness, fitness and everything in
between.
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
I'm your host, Michele Folan,and this is Asking for a Friend.
The truth is, we all havesomeone or something to forgive,
(00:25):
perhaps even ourselves.
We know it's good to forgive,but we might not know how to do
it.
In 2012, after facing apersonal challenge that her
extensive skills in educationcouldn't resolve, Dara McKinley
searched online for forgivenesshow-to and was only met by a lot
(00:45):
of why one should forgive.
When a logical path came to herand after completing it, she
felt peaceful and free for thefirst time in three years, this
epiphany led her to dedicateherself to researching and
teaching this powerful concept,helping others process stuck
emotions and move forward withpassion and clarity.
(01:06):
Dara McKinley, welcome toAsking for a Friend.
Thank you, Michele.
Thank you for having me.
I was so intrigued when I thinkof you as a publicist that
reached out to me about youbeing on the podcast and I read
maybe a few sentences into yourbio and said, ah, this is a
(01:31):
topic that we have not reallycovered on the podcast at length
, and I think for my audience,Dara, that now that most of them
are probably 50 plus, we allhave been in a situation where
we have had to forgive or shouldhave forgiven.
(01:52):
I should preface that so.
But first of all, I want tohear a little bit more about you
and kind of how you got to thisplace where you are right now.
Dara McKinley (02:14):
Yes.
So I was born a very spirituallittle girl and went on to study
spirituality and psychology.
I have a graduate degree incontemplative psychology, which
is essentially Buddhistpsychology, and just have always
been interested in alternativehealing methods and mainstream
healing methods and really justalways had my eye on what really
heals, what really helps aperson recover.
That was always the filter thatI assessed everything with.
(02:36):
So, of course, I heard aboutforgiveness from my earliest
days.
My mother comes from a Catholicfamily, so it was definitely
the word was used in ourhousehold a lot and, as I like
examined it more and more as Igot older, I could never seem to
make it work in a practical way, though I thought the idea was
(02:57):
gorgeous.
You know that the key tohappiness is to be able to love
our enemies.
So here I am.
It's now the early 2000s.
I have an idea for a business.
In my naive enthusiasm, I jumpin with business partners who I
would ultimately be incompatiblewith, but the business takes
(03:19):
off and so we basically justendure each other for as long as
we can.
And then, in 2009, things fallapart and I am pushed out and
lose my share of the business.
And when this moment happens.
I'm half relieved because ithad been so stressful you know
navigating these relationshipsand I'm half heartbroken because
(03:40):
the business was my idea and ithad brought me a lot of joy.
And so I thought to myself wow,Dara, this is a huge blow.
But you've been studyingpsychology and spirituality for
two decades.
You have the skills to getthrough this.
You're going to focus on yoursignificant relationships, on
gratitude.
You're going to recreate yourlife.
You're going to process youremotions and you will resurrect.
(04:02):
And I did that for three yearsand definitely I, you know, was
able to move forward.
But I would notice, when I waswashing the dishes or folding
laundry, that I still had anegative narrative about what
had happened looping through myhead and it kind of it had the
themes of like that was so wrong.
(04:23):
You know, like I deservejustice.
You know things like that.
And as this is happening, Ibegin to slowly slide into a
mystery illness that was likeinsomnia, fatigue, anxiety, and
the doctors can't figure outwhat's wrong with me.
And I have a three-year-old anda six-year-old and I start to
get very concerned and upset,which is making the symptoms
worse, and I basically juststart spiraling into a hole and
(04:49):
I definitely would neverdescribe myself as psychic, but
I'm very intuitive and I havealways said that when I hit rock
bottom moments, I just have thegift of imploring a sign or a
message, you know.
And so here I was hitting thisrock bottom moment and so I, you
know, someone might say it's acome to Jesus moment, you know.
(05:09):
So I kind of get it down on myknees and I'm like I am freaked
out to my core.
I need help getting out of this.
I need a sign, I need somethingto.
You know, show me how to healthis situation.
And the message I got back wasto forgive.
And, like a lot of people whenthey hear that message, I did
(05:30):
not like it.
I, um, I, like the innerteenager in me, kind of rolled
her eyes and thought like oh,did you know, though, right away
that who you were supposed toforgive?
Michele Folan (05:44):
You did yeah.
Crystal clear?
You did Okay.
Dara McKinley (05:48):
Yeah, that was probably.
My first thought was yeah, I dohave something to forgive.
And then my next thought wasbut I don't want this to be the
answer to my problems.
And so one thing to reallyilluminate right now is that so
many people have that reactionto the suggestion of forgiveness
, and I was defining forgivenessas pardoning.
(06:08):
So when I heard that wordforgive, immediately it was like
let these people off the hookand you will get better, and
that anyway.
So I'll go a little deeper intothe story because so, anyway, I
reject the message.
But then it was so clear thatwithin an hour I said okay, dara
, get online.
(06:29):
It's now 2012, october 2012.
And I was like get online, findwhoever wrote some how to
forgive a five-step thing andfollow it and see what happens.
You're an open person who likesto research new ideas and new
modalities.
You've nothing to lose, checkit out.
So I typed in how to forgiveand 99.9% of what came up was
(06:53):
why a person should forgive.
And then the teeny bit I couldfind on some forum here and
there where someone like me wasgoing but how do you do it?
The message they were gettingback was you just do it.
So I was like, wow, I closed mycomputer and I was like, but
how do you do it?
The message they were gettingback was you just do it.
So I was like, wow, I closed mycomputer and I was like, oh, my
goodness, like I can't just dothis, like I really need
directions and I'm on my ownright now, like there's no one
(07:16):
who's going to give them to me.
And then I thought, okay, you,you know, you have studied a lot
of things like think about this, you can do this.
And the question I asked myself,which was the question that
would step me onto theforgiveness path, was okay, dara
, you've been running a negativenarrative for three years.
It's getting you nowhere, it'spotentially making you sick.
(07:38):
What is the opposite of thatnarrative?
And my answer to that questionwas oh, I would bless this whole
situation with the highest love.
And upon answering thatquestion, I took my first step.
There's a lot more that cameafter it, but three weeks later
I felt an inner peace I hadn'tfelt in three years.
(07:59):
I was completely clear ofresentment and emotional burden
and I was completely wowed.
And I remember thinking like,wow, forgiveness is legitimate,
like it's for real, like itworks.
And my second thought was andthat wasn't pardoning.
Why does everyone sayforgiveness is pardoning?
(08:19):
And that was that.
I had that thought and then Ijust thought I'd had my own
little personal win and I movedforward with my life, just
grateful that I had figured itout.
Michele Folan (08:28):
So, first of all, what you experienced is not
unlike what other peopleexperience in the realm of.
I got dissed or hurt by someoneor a group of people or
whatever, and we let it eat atus, and so I totally see why
(08:54):
after three years, you spiraledand it started to affect your
health.
I really believe that we cancarry those burdens with us and
they can eat us from the insideout, no doubt, and the fact that
you recognize that was such agift because it allowed you to
pull yourself out.
(09:14):
But I have to ask this questionbecause you said that
forgiveness is not necessarilypardoning, and I think, looking
at it that way, it seems that itthat would be easier, because
then it doesn't put so much onuson us.
Does that make sense?
Dara McKinley (09:35):
Yes, and so first , I invite people to rethink
forgiveness.
That's one of the big pieces ofmy work.
And let's just say forgivenessis pardoning, right?
That definition is deeplyembedded in the Western mind,
correct, and you know, if anyoneshows up five minutes late or
10 minutes late to a meeting,we're going to say oh, you know,
(09:58):
please forgive me.
And so forgiveness is pardoningis a definition that's not
going anywhere.
However, I invite people tothink, rethink that definition
when a rupture or betrayal ishuge.
And I'm adding a new definition.
I'm inviting people to considerthe definition that forgiveness
(10:20):
is actually one's ability toapply unconditional love.
And when I say unconditionallove, that can be God's love,
Jesus's love, love of Allah,love of the Buddha, love of the
goddess, divine love.
However you want to define this, every benevolent spiritual
tradition and religion has coreteachings of unconditional love.
(10:40):
It is a very real thing that Icould talk to you for five
minutes about and say more abouthow that is real.
And the second part of mydefinition is one's ability to
identify exactly what needs it.
Second part of my definition isone's ability to identify
exactly what needs it and oncethose two plates spin,
restoration and healing occur,and then pardoning, having
(11:00):
compassion, ceasing anger,letting go of the past all
become these organic outcomes.
So I feel like mainstreamforgiveness definitions are
putting the cart before thehorse and when someone's
experiencing as you justdescribed like a lot of strong
emotions because of a huge dissthat happened to them, having
(11:24):
compassion and just letting goand just don't be angry, those
are tall orders when someone'sjust trying to survive a strong
emotional swell from somethingbig that just happened.
So when we look at forgivenessas not our ability to
unconditionally love, but ourability to enlist unconditional
(11:44):
love, just as you said, it's notour responsibility to be a
miraculous person in anextremely difficult time, but we
can enlist something that willhelp us navigate and restore
ourselves after an extremelydifficult time.
So I teach people thatforgiveness is a delegation.
Michele Folan (12:06):
Okay, In some of the reading that I did, you have
two definitions interpersonaland intrapersonal forgiveness.
What is the difference?
Dara McKinley (12:16):
So interpersonal forgiveness is definitely like
the mainstream definitions thatwe're fed and so and then here's
the ideal scenario that thosedefinitions are kind of speaking
to Two people have a conflict,they have an honest conversation
about how they were affected.
Let's say there's one personwho was more careless.
(12:37):
They own it and takeresponsibility for it and they
apologize, and then that personforgives.
This is this beautiful, perfectlittle feedback loop.
You know that where forgivenessis, this beautiful thing that
people can do?
So that's interpersonalforgiveness.
Intrapersonal forgiveness isbetween a person, their
(13:00):
connection to divine lovehowever they define it and their
personal truth about whathappened.
Because and intrapersonalforgiveness is so important,
because those healingconversations often don't happen
for a lot of people A lot ofpeople don't get the apology
they deserve.
Sometimes the person is nolonger living Right, like.
(13:23):
Sometimes the externalenvironment is not going to
treat us how we deserve to betreated or give us what we need
in order to heal and moveforward right, and so does that
leave us out of the forgivenessgame.
Michele Folan (13:36):
No, right, okay, I've got gosh.
My brain is going 100 miles anhour here, so as I'm seeing this
.
So the forgiveness piece or theunconditional love?
Are we having unconditionallove for the situation, for
ourselves or for the otherperson?
Dara McKinley (14:00):
All of it.
Michele Folan (14:01):
Okay, all right.
Dara McKinley (14:02):
All of it?
Yeah, and there's.
So when I teach people though,like every situation has unique
facets, right, every story isdifferent.
And when I say the second partof my definition is a person's
ability to identify what needsunconditional love, so I teach
people how to examine their,what happened to them and how
(14:24):
it's continued to be stuck intheir body and playing out in
their present moment, andidentifying exactly what that is
so that that can be connectedwith unconditional love.
Michele Folan (14:36):
Okay, what do you see as the biggest obstacles in
people's ability forforgiveness?
So you work with clients.
Dara McKinley (14:49):
Right.
Michele Folan (14:49):
What do you see as the biggest obstacle that
people run into?
Dara McKinley (14:53):
Well, I think that people thinking that
forgiveness is letting othersoff the hook.
I think the pardoningdefinition is actually one of
the biggest obstacles.
That's one of if I, if someonetakes my course and I just get
them for six weeks to deeplyreconsider the definition of
(15:13):
forgiveness, to me that's likesuccessful, because it's so deep
inside all of us.
And then I also think that fora lot of people and I came up
against this that night inOctober 2012, is that I was
right, yeah, was right, yeah.
(15:39):
And so you know I say to peopleyou are right, what happened,
what happened, should not havehappened, but forgive anyway,
meaning like clear it out ofyour body anyway.
When I stepped forward, so I hadthat answer like, oh, I will
bless this situation with divinelove.
And so I said, okay, let me,let me try to do that right now,
let me check out how to makethat happen.
And as I went deeper into whatthat would look like, a voice
(16:00):
inside my head kind of cameforth and said, no, no, no,
you're completely, you know,you've been wronged, like you
can't bless them with thehighest love.
And it was so interesting to mebecause in this moment, I saw
that voice so clearly and I saidoh wow.
I said, hey, I've been listeningto you for three years and I
(16:25):
need to try something differentright now.
So can you please just stepaside and if what I'm about to
try doesn't work, you and I cantalk again, but right now I
don't.
To try doesn't work.
You and I can talk again, butright now I don't think you're
getting me anywhere.
So I had this whole kind oflike inner dialogue.
But I think a lot of peoplestruggle with the fact that what
they really were wronged andthen they really think again
(16:47):
that forgiveness is lettingsomeone who wronged them off the
hook.
And so once I went through thiswhole process, I just started
observing mainstream narrativesand people who really had a
negative view of forgiveness andI started to see like, oh wow,
all these definitions areactually creating an obstacle.
Michele Folan (17:08):
Yeah, so, first of all, I think forgiveness is
really about healing, right, andnow I'm starting to see it as a
form of self-care.
Right?
Because the more we carry thisstuff around with us, it can
really take you downhill.
My other call out in this, asyou were speaking, was do you
(17:31):
ever have to ask people I'mhearing you and I'm hearing the
situation and how you werewronged but does that person
ever have to take some onus forthe situation if they too are
part of the problem?
Dara McKinley (17:48):
So I actually think what you're speaking to is
what I call radicalself-responsibility, and I
actually think it's anincredibly liberating, uber
healthy thing to do to take 100%responsibility for our
experience and how wecontributed to the creation of
(18:12):
some difficult situation.
With that said, you don't needto do that in order to forgive,
and first of all, because if youstep onto the forgiveness path
to heal and restore, you kind ofare doing that.
You're taking responsibilityfor your emotional health, even
though you might not be a personwho is drawn to really, you
(18:35):
know, scrutinizing all the waysthat you may have contributed to
the situation.
So it's not it's not necessaryin order to forgive, but I think
it is a very worthwhile pursuit.
Just personally and like interms of like all the things
that heal us, I think it's oneof the most beautiful things
that also heal us, butforgiveness is not dependent on
(18:59):
that.
Michele Folan (18:59):
Okay, and then we all know that one person who
it's never their fault, theywould never apologize because
they for some reason don't thinkit's ever their issue, it's
always somebody else's issue.
And so I think that this isreally important when you have
someone like that in your life,because you will just go in
(19:23):
circles with someone who justcontinually will never take
responsibility for their actions, just continually will never
take responsibility for theiractions, so for you to have that
ability to forgive or bless thesituation with unconditional
love, as you say, then it reallycan take that monkey off your
(19:44):
back.
Dara McKinley (19:45):
Right, like if you're in a marriage or
something with someone who justnever owns their part of the
equation.
Is that what you're saying?
Michele Folan (19:55):
Yeah, now, that's not my situation, so I just
want to be very clear.
Dara McKinley (19:59):
I'm just trying to illuminate the details a
little bit more.
Michele Folan (20:04):
Oh God, no, but yeah, we make that clear.
That's not.
I'm not talking ill of mywonderful spouse.
No, when I said you, I meant aperson.
Dara McKinley (20:16):
But I have had a lot of women interested not, you
know, whatever women, men whoare in marriages or
relationships that arechallenging and what I mean and
it's kind of the nature ofmarriage and relationships,
quite honestly, long-term onesthat you know they hit very
challenging points who have donemy work and have been able to
(20:40):
create a lot of openness andspace and let go of a lot of
resentment that was accruingtowards their partner.
Again, I don't know if theirpartner had the exact character
that you're describing right now, but I know that these people
felt very stuck at the time andjust felt like they were living
in a household that was just hada lot of resentment circulating
(21:03):
.
Michele Folan (21:03):
Yeah, we, you know, we've addressed that
resentment piece on differentpodcast episodes.
Dara McKinley (21:10):
Yeah.
Michele Folan (21:11):
And it really until you can have that
conversation or be able to letgo of some of that.
It can be daunting right in arelationship.
Dara McKinley (21:24):
Yeah, and set boundaries, like so much of a
healthy relationship, is thecourage to set a boundary, and
that's not an easy task.
Michele Folan (21:33):
Yeah, hey, Dara, we're going to take a quick
break, okay, and we'll be rightback.
And when we come back, I wantto talk about if it's okay not
to forgive.
Yes, it is 2025 and I think I'mjust about recovered from the
crazy holiday festivities.
I also have a wonderfulcoaching group up and going.
(21:58):
You know, every year seems toput people on the starting line
of a weight loss journey.
We've all been there.
What if, when you begin 2026,you aren't feeling compelled to
start over or recommit to lastyear's resolutions?
Can we adopt a truly healthylifestyle that is not only
effective but sustainable?
If you are open to pushingaside the quick fix mentality
(22:21):
for slow, steady and long-term,would you be interested?
You get to eat all the foodgroups with your own custom
nutrition plan and start to moveyour body to ensure you are
building lean muscle, stabilityand longevity?
Let's get that metabolism firedup, because it is not too late
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I have another group coachinground starting soon.
(22:43):
Are you ready?
Reach out via my email in theshow notes or DM me on social
media.
All right, everybody, we'reback, okay.
So back to my question beforewe took the break Is it okay to
not forgive?
Dara McKinley (23:01):
Yeah, I don't.
It's really a personal choice.
It's a matter of it's really apersonal choice.
It's a matter of deciding like,oh wow, I am carrying around an
emotional burden or a lot ofnegative thoughts and I don't
want to do it anymore, andthat's up to the individual to
see that and decide that forthemselves.
(23:23):
So I don't, if someone doesn'twant to forgive, that's, in my
view, that's up to them.
You know, we all have to makeour decisions and for some, I
think it's one of the mostvaluable things that a person
can do.
I know that.
I want to.
I think that when we have a lotof emotional burdens and
(23:43):
negative narratives, I think itblocks, like our truest, most
authentic, most beautiful self.
You know, it's like why, whenwe're on our, you know, taking
our last breaths and on ourdeathbed, I think when we say
like, oh, wow, I lived inalignment with my truest, most
beautiful, authentic self,that's what we're going to feel
really proud of, and so I thinkforgiveness helps make sure that
(24:08):
happens.
So, but if a person doesn'twant to forgive and again, I'm
not defining it as pardoning, soI'm defining it as healing, as
you said so perfectly in thebeginning of the conversation.
So if a person doesn't want toheal, that's their choice.
Michele Folan (24:24):
Yeah, I guess there's, you know, is there some
kind of a choice?
Yeah, I guess there's.
You know, is there some kind ofa unforgivable barometer out
there that I guess people haveto make that decision for
themselves if they do want tocarry something with them for
their whole life.
I mean, that just seems awfulto me.
You know, now that we've hadthis conversation, I think about
(24:44):
carrying something until I'm 80or 90 years old.
I just don't think I want thatin my life, right.
Dara McKinley (24:53):
Right, it affects everything.
It affects our bodies, itaffects our relationships, it
affects our ability to accessour intuition, which is another.
Like, one of the best thingsabout being alive is having a
good, strong you know strongconnection to our intuition.
So there's so many.
Ultimately, it creates a senseof inner peace in the body, but
there's so many secondarybenefits.
Michele Folan (25:14):
Are we all wired to forgive?
Do you think that humanity iswired?
Dara McKinley (25:19):
Yes, we are.
We have two hemispheres of thebrain.
The left hemisphere, which isthe one that's cultivated in
Western society, is aboutnavigating the external part of
being human, and the righthemisphere of the brain, which
unfortunately is relegated toweekends and holidays in Western
(25:41):
culture, is about navigatingour inner realm, and so when I
say that, what I mean by thatit's about processing emotions,
it's about our spiritualconnection, it's about how to
use imagination in a restorativeway, it's about our creative
process, and so that hemisphereof the brain is very atrophied
(26:02):
in Western culture, to the pointwhere people don't understand
that they actually have all theskills they need.
They just need someone to teachthem how to bring them together
to form this winning team thatcreates forgiveness.
So you know again, I teach acourse, and that's one of the
things I teach people is thatthey we are anatomically
(26:24):
designed to heal, restore andregenerate, and like considering
that we all have very strongrites of passage like thank
goodness we have this.
Michele Folan (26:34):
Right, oh, no kidding, no kidding.
And then I wrote this downbecause I wanted to ask you
about this after we first spokeForgiveness in families versus,
say, friends or coworkers.
Is there a different processthat people go through when it's
like a family member, whetherit's a spouse or, say, a sibling
(26:58):
or parent God forbid or if it'ssomething an issue that you
have with friends or say,coworkers.
Dara McKinley (27:08):
An issue that you have with friends or, say,
coworkers.
Well, I think what you'respeaking to right now is that
there are three timeframes thata person can forgive.
And the first one is calledepisodic, and that's just an
incident that happened in thepast, that's no longer in your
present life.
And then the next one isenduring, and enduring is
something that you wake up to,that you have to deal with every
(27:29):
day, and that can be an illnessor a family member, or
co-parenting with a difficult ex, you know an addiction.
There's so many.
You know problems that a personcan wake up to and have to face
.
And then epic is when somethingwent on for a really long
period of time.
It's in the past, but it wenton for so long that it can feel
daunting to forgive.
(27:50):
But people who have an epictime frame behind them, like a
childhood for example, they verymuch want to forgive, but then
they can get very overwhelmedand think, oh, too much has
happened.
You know I can't do it but,speaking to your question, when
we have, you know, friends andco-workers like we can, it's
easier to create the boundariesaround people that we have, you
know, friends and coworkers likewe can, it's easier to create
(28:10):
the boundaries around peoplethat we have like proximity with
and even end thoserelationships and switch jobs
right.
But with family that's a littletrickier.
Family is more likely than anyof the others to end up in the
enduring timeframe Like we'renot going to abandon our
children ever.
Or you know, like I mean maybewe would.
(28:32):
You know, like there's I'm surethere's some scenarios where
that could happen, but that'snot.
We really we're really devotedto that relationship no matter
what.
So that's like that would landin the enduring timeframe.
And in the enduring timeframe Itell people to see forgiveness
as an ongoing process that isgoing to give them a lifeboat, a
(28:53):
life jacket, supplies, is goingto fortify them to navigate
this difficult thing that's intheir lives.
Forgiveness sometimes I getpeople coming to me saying can I
just forgive?
This horrible thing justhappened to me?
Can I just just you know,forgive this horrible thing just
happened to me.
Can I just forgive it away?
You know they want to just havesome like magic snap of the
(29:13):
fingers that will make thisdifficult thing disappear, and
that's not how it works.
And I definitely thinkforgiveness creates really
beautiful, what some might callmiracles, but really beautiful
situations that we could nothave orchestrated, you know,
with our own will and control.
However, we all have acurriculum in this life and it's
(29:37):
unique to every person, andit's really a matter of
navigating those difficultpoints of that curriculum in a
way that we, when it's all saidand done, we can feel really
good about and that we know wedid our best.
And that we, when it's all saidand done, we can feel really
good about and that we know wedid our best.
And it doesn't mean it's notgoing to be messy, because it is
, and it's not.
It's going to be challenging,you know, but we want to know
(29:59):
that we made the highest, thatwe connected with the highest
outcome and we operated from ourhighest minds and our highest
selves.
Right, yes, and that's whatforgiveness empowers us to do.
Michele Folan (30:11):
Yeah, can you share, like a client, success
story?
Dara McKinley (30:16):
Yeah, one of the ones that was most poignant to
me was a woman who grew up witha mentally ill mother and, you
know, ended up in and out offoster situations and just
really had a tumultuouschildhood and she ended up going
into the healing arts herselfand becoming a trauma therapist
and was trying everything tomake peace with her mom and, you
(30:41):
know, I think in her earlythirties came across my work and
tried it and was verysuccessful with it and was able
to make peace with her motherand then ended up and this is
what I was just saying ended uphaving this beautiful encounter
with her mom.
And her mom really is likeseverely mentally ill.
Where it's you can't evenreally like talk to her, you
(31:03):
know, cause she's not present.
But she ended up having thislike beautiful chance encounter
with her mom after she forgave,where they really were able to
look each other in the eyes andlike have a heart connection and
it was very, you know, fleetingbut it was undeniable and she
was said that she absolutelyknew that forgiveness cleared
the path for her to have thatexperience.
(31:25):
So that's one of my favoritestories, yeah.
Michele Folan (31:28):
Yeah, oh, that's really nice, that's heartwarming
.
Really you would hate for, youknow, a vibrant 30 year old
woman to have to go through thatbut to be able to move on in
life and have all those yearsahead of her where she can be
free of that anger and sometimeshate.
Dara McKinley (31:51):
Yeah, and that's an example of the epic timeframe
as well, and that forgiveness.
People who have a hugeexperience behind them, like a
childhood or a mentally illmother, for example, you can
forgive those things, like.
I want to kind of say thatclearly because I know it feels
unforgivable to a lot of peoplebecause so many little things
(32:12):
happened, but once you learn howto use the right hemisphere of
the brain, it really leads youthrough, you know, and it really
wants things to be resolved,and so it's really just about
learning how to use thosemuscles, which is, you know, the
industry you're in yeah Well,yeah, we, I work in different
(32:33):
muscles for sure.
Michele Folan (32:35):
So what kind of training do you offer clients?
Do you have different programsavailable?
Dara McKinley (32:40):
Right.
So I have a six week course thatanyone can purchase at any time
and that basically gives youthis very clear, step by step,
and I want people to graduatethe course like really feeling
like they had a lasting,transformational experience that
is going to be with them forthe rest of their lives and that
(33:01):
, should they hit those lowpoints, that they have this
incredible resource that theycan call upon and use and apply.
And I also do bi-weekly energymeditations because I attract a
lot of people who are in acrisis you know who and I always
think to myself like, yes,forgiveness can help you, but
(33:23):
when you're in a crisis, it'syou really just need to focus on
calming yourself down.
It's not about learning someskill, even though once you have
that skill, it'll always helpyou.
You know it's just when you're,when you're emotionally in an
acute period.
You just need to figure out howto decompress it.
So these energy meditations, Ioffer them biweekly and they're
great for anyone who is reallyin a difficult moment.
(33:48):
And then I also teach people.
I have a small PDF that's aboutwhen you're struggling with a
lot of negative thinking orintrusive thoughts.
It know teaching people how tojust three basic skills for
having an emotionally healthysystem, because emotions are
just an anatomical system thatneeds to move and a lot of
(34:11):
people clamp down on them, rightand or feel fear, fearful of
them.
So it's just like three veryfriendly ways to just tend to
your emotional system, the waysomeone would brush their teeth
every morning.
Michele Folan (34:24):
Okay, and you know it's nice if it can be that
simple for us to work throughthese things, if you have a
process or a framework that youcan do this yourself, because I
guess you just never know whensomething like that is going to
come up in your life.
Dara McKinley (34:41):
Right, I have yet to meet someone who hasn't,
especially, as you said, in 40sand 50s.
At that stage of the game,something huge has happened, and
it's just the human experience.
Michele Folan (34:56):
Right, I do have kind of a personal question for
you.
What is one of your corepillars of self-care?
What do you do for yourself?
Dara McKinley (35:05):
Well, I take really good care of my emotional
realm.
I'm very body aware, so I stayvery present to whether I'm
feeling congested.
That's how I describe it.
It's like I don't want to getemotionally congested.
The last thing the world needsis another emotionally congested
person.
The last thing the world needsis another emotionally congested
person.
So I pay very close attentionand I make sure that my
(35:27):
emotional realm is circulatingand, in terms of your realm, I
very much eat healthy, becausethat very much affects emotions
and so I prioritize that.
Michele Folan (35:38):
Yeah, and you know, I've just read oh gosh,
it's a doctor on Instagram.
He's very well thought of, he'sout of Cleveland Clinic, but he
was talking about the gut brainconnection and what a strong
connection there is between yourgut health and your brain and
(35:59):
it's really fascinating.
So I love the fact that youlike to eat healthy, because you
know that that does help withnot just how your body is
feeling but also your brain, sojust really cool.
Yes, Dara McKinley, where canthe listeners find you?
Dara McKinley (36:15):
Howtoforgive.
com and how to forgive is what Ityped in that fateful night in
October 2012.
And then, in 2014, I looked upthe domain and there it was,
sitting there waiting for me.
So, um, I'm also on Instagramand Facebook and uh yeah, all
right, it was meant to happen.
Michele Folan (36:32):
If it was two years and that that domain was
there, it was yours to take.
That's awesome.
That's a great story.
Dara McKinley, I reallyappreciate you being here.
Dara McKinley (36:44):
Thank you for having me.
It was a pleasure.
Michele Folan (36:47):
Hey, thanks for tuning in.
Please rate and review the showwhere you listen to the podcast
.
And did you know that Askingfor a Friend is available now to
listen on YouTube?
You can subscribe to thepodcast there as well.
Your support is appreciated andit helps others find the show.
Thank you.
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