September 11, 2025 • 43 mins
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Most people talk about culture like it’s a project. But as Kate Bertram, former CEO and author of Creating Stickiness, reminds us, culture isn’t the initiative. It’s the result.
In this episode of Aspire For More with Erin, Kate and I dig deep into the truths leaders often overlook:
- Why culture shows up most clearly on a Tuesday afternoon in the middle of stress
- The role of shadow culture—and how unspoken norms can undermine your best intentions
- Why perks, pay bumps, and pizza parties don’t fix toxic leadership
- How to build trust as the new currency of leadership
- The difference between being “nice” and being “kind” when having tough conversations
- Why development planning creates “stickiness” and helps retain top talent
This conversation is a roadmap for senior living and healthcare leaders who want to create workplaces where people stay, thrive, and belong.
💬 What You’ll Learn in This Episode
- How to see culture as the result of leadership behaviors, not an HR program
- Why trust is fragile—and how to build it consistently with your team
- What courageous leadership looks like in real time (and why clarity is kindness)
- How to address “shadow culture” before it damages trust and morale
- Practical ways to use development planning as a retention strategy
Connect with Kate Bertram
- LinkedIn: Kate Bertram
- Book: Creating Stickiness
Listen Now:
If you’re a senior living leader, healthcare professional, or simply someone who cares about building trust-centered workplaces, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
New ED's Playbook to Creating and IMpactful Community Cultrue
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Join my email list where I will lift you up, and send tactile advice weekly to support you to grow your experience in your senior living career.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode.
I'm so happy that you're herewith us today.
I am excited about my guesttoday'cause she is an author.
I can't wait for you to hearabout this book.
Most people talk about culturelike it's a project, but what if
it's actually a reflection?
A reflection of how we lead, howwe listen, and whether people
(00:20):
believe they belong even on thehard days, days that we mess up.
Days that we make a mistake,days that we feel like we don't
wanna come back.
Today I am joined by KateBertram, former CEO and author
of the new book, creatingStickiness, how Stickiness
Transforms Your Bottom Line.
(00:40):
And she's also a bold voice inthe senior living leadership
space from her early days as aCNA to leading an entire
organization.
Kate brings a perspective shapedby experience, courage, and the
kind of honesty.
That I love and that we needmore of in this field.
In this episode, we're talkingabout why culture is the result,
(01:03):
not the initiative.
Why total rewards often fail tocreate real engagement and how
to lead with trust,accountability, and courage, and
high turnover, high emotionindustries like ours.
So this episode is for you.
If you are leading a team,building a company, or just
trying to hold it together,stick with us the entire episode
(01:26):
and you'll leave withconversations of frameworks,
real talk from a CEO, a formerCEO, and a reminder that the
soft stuff is the hard stuff.
Don't let anybody fool you.
And it's what matters most.
So, Kate, welcome to theepisode.
(01:46):
I'm so happy that you're herewith us.
Thank you.
Kate (01:48):
Thank you, Erin.
I'm so glad to be here.
Erin (01:51):
Yes, a former CEO and now an author.
I love the word stickiness.
I think that there is somethingreally, really important about
that.
with our industry, and we wantour people to stick.
We want our values to stick.
We want our culture to stick.
We want all that st we want themto stay.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that you are writing a
(02:13):
book to help us figure out howto be sticky.
And culture is a huge piece ofthat.
And I like how you say it's theresult.
Not the initiative.
So tell us what you mean bythat.
Kate (02:26):
that's probably, one of the most important points is
that culture isn't a poster on awall.
Culture isn't what theorganization says it is, and,
it's not a marketing campaign.
Culture is what it feels like ona Tuesday afternoon.
In in a stressful situation,that's culture, how people act,
how people respond based on allof the inputs, that have been
(02:48):
created.
And what I mean by that is.
the leadership style of theorganizationthe acts of courage
or the type of leaders that arein the organization, what they
see, walking the walk, not justtalking the talk.
All of those are what creates aculture.
It's not ping pong tables, andit's not free Starbucks.
It's, how am I treated?
(03:09):
What is the exchange?
the return on my investment andwhat that feels like, and you
can't fake it.
We all, we all know, we've allbeen team members at all
different levels of theorganization, and you can't
fake, mission, vision, andvalues.
it's really what the actions isaround those things.
it's clear, it's a mirroressentially.
Erin (03:29):
Yes.
Good culture.
And keep the pizza parties andgive me a free Starbucks gift
card and put the posters on thewall.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
But you can't have the freepizza, the coffee without.
Belonging, you know?
Kate (03:45):
Exactly.
because those things becomeperks.
Yeah.
And those are great.
Like I love free coffee and I, Ilove pizza.
Right?
So we all do.
So those are great and Iappreciate them.
Those are perks though to me.
Those are, those are not thingsthat will keep me working for a
toxic leader, for example.
Yes.
Those are things that I just.
(04:06):
Will consume or mm-hmm.
Erin (04:08):
You know,
Kate (04:08):
okay.
So, we really need to thinkabout, culture tools, as, are
they perks or are they trulyconnected back to the person and
to ultimately the mission andthe values of the organization.
The perks should really just,those are just icing on the
cake.
and thinking of it that way isreally important.
Erin (04:30):
So how do we know when culture's working?
Like how do we, from a, from aninside community standpoint, you
walk into a building and you canfeel it.
Mm-hmm.
Do you feel it, that's, that'swhy that soft stuff is, is
really important, but from ahigher level perspective in how
you wrote this book.
What are some frameworks, somepaths, what is your area of
(04:55):
focus?
Kate (04:55):
I think when you're thinking about culture in the
organization in a stickyorganization.
You start with reallyunderstanding what culture isn't
or what are the common pitfalls,because I think it's really
important to avoid some of thosethings before you even create,
before you take it to that,level of creating that
foundation.
So, things like, lip service andsaying that, that this is the
(05:20):
way we do things and this is howwe treat one another, but yet.
The actions, don't take thatsame direction, is something
that we need to be keenly awareof in developing, the culture.
It's, that pitfall, the dailyreality.
If it's not aligned to whatwe're saying, just completely
erodes trust and will, will,you'll lose, any momentum
(05:43):
you've, gained in the culture.
And then the other is reallyidentifying ahead of time.
What is observable from a shadowculture?
So what I mean by that isthinking about, the unspoken
rules, the, the clicks, thenetworks, the unwritten norms
that are already in place andunderstanding first whether that
(06:05):
exists, and thinking about howyou're going to counteract to
those kind of things when you,when you think about developing.
your culture, and then youreally need to be assessing the
accountability.
How accountable, are yourleaders to the culture?
So if the CEO of an organizationsays, this is what I'd like,
(06:28):
what I'd like to be known for inour culture, these are the
things, right?
We lay that out.
And then, your middle, yourmiddle level leaders are
actually counterintuitive or arecounteracting those things.
the culture becomes the oppositeor essentially falls flat.
and so the culture can't bestatic, right?
We can't just say this is itnow, and it's a one size fits
(06:52):
all.
so when we think about what weneed to do to create a sticky
culture in one that everyonewants to be part of, it's really
linking your culture to, topurpose.
And I say that really genuinely,and not in the overused term.
you know, it's a purpose,purpose, purpose, but really
(07:12):
understanding that the workeveryone does at every level of
the organization links back tothe purpose for the reason that
they're there.
And it really reinforces.
something that's really, teammembers really want, and it's to
be part of something bigger.
especially our younger workers,right?
They wanna be part of somethingand, and feel like they make an
(07:32):
impact.
Tying back to purpose in allmoments, is really important.
And again, can't say thisenough, it's not what the CEO
says, it's what the what, whenthe, when the rubber hits the
road, what we're saying and whatwe're feeling, in senior living
in communities.
are our.
Executive directors saying, whatare our, our managers saying?
and then really that weunderstand that those same
(07:55):
leaders I'm talking about,they're what I call like culture
carriers.
So it's their job to take theinitiatives and the ideas that
create a good, strong culturethat, you know, there's lots of
books written on this, butthey're the culture carriers.
So really making sure thatthey're well equipped.
To be that person that theyunderstand that this is how we
(08:17):
address a, a situation.
We hold others accountable.
Everyone really wants that,whether they say it or not, that
we lead, with courage, we makehard decisions and then, that we
establish trust over and over.
You know, they say that trust inculture, trust is something
that.
Is like a drop in a bucket.
(08:37):
It takes time, it takes constantpractice.
And then once the bucket's full,you know, we've established that
trust, but it, we can lose it asquickly as failing.
you know, our team members, bynot being honest, not being
transparent, not explaining thewhy tip the bucket and all the
water drains out.
So it's fragile and those middleleaders need to be the, the
(08:58):
culture carriers.
The other piece with culture isthat team members need to have a
voice and need to feel a senseof ownership.
Mm-hmm.
And what I mean by that is, Iwanna be heard if I'm a CNA, or
in dining services, I want youto ask me what I think.
I want you to listen to what Ithink.
(09:18):
I want you to, you know, to knowmy voice is heard and I want you
to follow up and show thatyou've listened and that you're
evaluating.
You might not, I might not likethe answer I'm getting, but darn
it, if my voice is heard, I feellike I'm connected.
And so we need to give a, a lotto that, that voice and that
ownership.
Erin (09:40):
Yeah, I think that people.
When you're turning a culturearound, or you're trying to be
very intentional with theculture that you're trying to
build, whether you're a newleader inside of a new company,
whatever your circumstance is.
I think there's one word thatpeople get hung up on and it's
consistency because it's hard tokeep doing the same things when
(10:03):
you don't see the benefits ofyour work, when you don't see
the fruits of your labor andgrowth is very minimal.
And I tell people all the time,you have to look for the small
changes, micro
Kate (10:20):
mm-hmm.
Erin (10:22):
Micro changes, like the really, really small ones,
because otherwise you are goingto get discouraged.
And that is the number one thingthat ke, that keeps leaders from
growing, from being consistentis because it's, it's being
discouraged, but culture is along game.
It is not a short game.
And I think that people need tounderstand that.
Kate (10:42):
Right.
It's the, it's the result.
There are, opportunities tocreate micro moments, that
contribute to the culture.
They're more important than anymillion dollar marketing
campaign on culture, right?
Those micro moments, thosemoments of saying thank you.
Those moments of public andprivate recognition, right?
Sometimes, Your team membersdon't want you to put their name
(11:04):
on a sign.
They would just appreciate averbal, thank you.
And those micro moments, in, inthe hallways, walking the halls
and you know, meeting withsomeone who's struggling to show
that you're committed are worth,that's the culture.
Yes.
That's the culture you create.
Erin (11:22):
Yes, the power of presence is a big, big deal.
So when we talk aboutconsistency and culture and
presence and all that, like thatis building trust.
Building trust is a must.
For new leaders.
Leaders have been doing this fora long time.
because trust is like theoxygen, right?
(11:47):
The new currency of leadership.
And in the world that we're intoday, trust is hard to come by.
It is hard to come by.
so it sounds like a buzzword.
but how, what are some actualsystems, that you believe that
we can use to build trust insideof our community?
Because the people that we haveinside of our communities at
(12:10):
every layer, some of the layersare harder to, to gain their
trust.
Kate (12:17):
Yep.
So I think, you nailed it, youknow, earlier with consistency.
You, you, you have to beconsistent in your actions, your
words, to create trust so thatsomeone really knows that they
can, they can predict what youwould say, what you think, what
you would do, and really feelsome level of autonomy to be
(12:40):
able to make decisions on theirown.
and I think it's just likepersonal relationships.
We need to trust our spouse.
We need to trust those peoplearound us, that, that builds the
relationship.
It's the same, at work and, andeven the most trying times trust
will be.
the, the secret sauce, if youdon't have trust in those really
(13:02):
stressful times, you're gonnastruggle if, if the team doesn't
trust you or you don't trust theteam.
Hemingway says the easiest wayto find out whether, you can
trust someone.
Is to trust them, right?
give it a chance.
so give them a chance to fail,right?
I, I, I think that's, that'smore important than it's gonna
(13:24):
take longer for you as a leader,for your team to trust you.
And we have a group of skepticalteam members at times.
and I think you, like you said.
Everyone has different personalexperiences.
They come with.
Maybe they come from anenvironment that trust isn't a
thing, and so they come to workand, are skeptical of, of
(13:44):
leadership.
And so by being consistent eachand every day with how you, are,
you know, walking the walk,talking the talk, making those
things consistent, they can seethat in you that you're genuine
and you're real.
and trust is, is.
Super, super vulnerable,commodity in that, if you are
(14:05):
fake and you are not genuine in,in your level of caring for
them, and, and what they'remaybe going through or what they
need, it's, it's a recipe fordisaster If you listen.
Take action and action might notalways be what, what someone
wants, but action is.
I listened, I evaluated, I, youknow, I looked at it and now I'm
(14:29):
circling back.
You create a circle of trustthat they say they think that
themselves, okay, he or shereally cares about my feedback
and we need that.
you can break months ofgoodwill, by making errors in
trust.
So that's that.
That surface, like I'll say thisto you to make you happy.
It's that nice versus kindleader I might say to you,
(14:52):
whatever.
I think you need to sort oftemper this, the situation
instead of really drilling into,let's take a look.
What do you think would makethis better?
Or how can I help, in beinggenuine about it?
Yeah.
So, I think that.
When we talk about leadership, Ithink the important points are,
(15:12):
you know, having courage,holding people accountable.
But I think it starts withtrust.
When I've, in my roles, whenI've walked into communities, I
know there's a level of, oh,she's here.
And so everyone's perfectlypoised.
you know, the, the community,the physical plant is, is
shining, and there's all ofthat.
But what I do is come in, as apartner to them and I drill
(15:35):
into, not whether there's duston a picture frame, but how's it
going?
How, you know, how, how, what'sreally good about this?
Tell me something that's reallygood here.
So starting that, not just tellme what could be better.
Tell me what's working reallygood and people will tell you
that.
Then what could we do better?
what are your challenges?
I'm building trust by sittingdown and giving someone my time
(15:56):
and really my genuine care forwhat they're doing.
after you do that and you repeatit.
Many times I'll go back intocommunities and I'll get high
fives walking in the door.
So the formality, the hierarchy,nobody who cares don't want
that.
I would rather have someone thatI've spent five minutes with
give me a nudge or give me ahigh five.
(16:17):
because it's, to me, it's amirror of the trust that we've
established.
that's really important.
Erin (16:23):
I think for new leaders and for, and for leaders rising
in the ranks.
Trust is, is hard to build, butit doesn't require a lot of
action, really.
And I say action, I mean, itrequires you to listen, like you
said, to listen.
(16:43):
Mm-hmm.
And maybe that requires a lot ofenergy from you because you
wanna go in there and say, doesNo, no, no.
He does.
You need to do this.
it's, it's the glue.
It is it the stickiness of it?
And, and it's the same.
This is why I am so passionatelybelieve that leadership is
sales, and sales is servicebecause it's the same concepts.
change happens at the speed oftrust from a sales perspective
(17:05):
and from a leadershipperspective.
And so, like you said, how doyou build trust?
Number one, you just have totrust them.
That goes, that may go againstevery bone in your body, but
just allow it, have somecontingency plans.
But allow, it's like
Kate (17:21):
parenting, right?
Yes.
Parenting, yes.
You have to trust until youcan't, and then you put things
in place.
But really in, from aprofessional standpoint, when
trust is broken, when, when I,as a leader have broken trust
with someone that I've giventrust to, I look within myself
to say, where did I go wrong inthis?
(17:43):
did I delegate too fast?
Were they unequipped to do whatI asked them to do?
Did I not consider the fiveother things that are on their
plate?
Those things.
So that first personalreflection, but if I can't find
something, which sometimeshappens, I'll take it back to
that person because I want tore-give trust too.
and really re-give trust in agenuine manner.
(18:04):
Like, I'm not gonna get in mycar, drive away from the
community and be skeptical ofthe conversation.
I'm going to re-give trustbecause again, I need that glue
and I need, it takes time.
It a ton of energy for sure.
I think that leaders areexhausted by the end of the day.
There are days you remember thistoo, right?
(18:24):
Like being absolutely exhaustedand not by the work we do, but
the relationship development.
Yes.
in my last organization, we wentthrough the most trying time an
organization can go through, andI had to deliver some really
hard messages and I reallystruggled with what I had to do
in delivering these toughmessages, but I had established
trust with the organizationalleaders, at the community level,
(18:47):
at mid-level, and.
The executive, team.
And so to deliver a message in aroom or on a call with people
that you know, you'veestablished trust with and about
really difficult things is aheck of a lot easier than being
in a room of skeptics.
But that's because I've takenthe time, to develop that.
I think that leadership piece isabout humility too, right?
(19:08):
Like we all come with flaws.
We admit them.
when a leader to create trust,when a leader will tell you the
mistakes they made.
Yeah.
Or in a meeting say, you knowwhat?
I looked at that and I thought Iwas looking at this and it was a
mistake.
Boy, do you really give a levelof I'm human and you are too.
So let's be human together.
Because I think trust is, ishuman in, in our industry, we're
(19:32):
that our product is people.
So yeah,
Erin (19:35):
we're taking care of some of the most important people.
Kate (19:38):
Oh my gosh.
Erin (19:39):
Of.
People's lives, right?
Like, you know, like mygrandmother lived in my
community and, and other peopleI knew, you know, their parents
lived in my community.
Like, when you think about thatfrom a trust perspective, like
that's, that's a lot.
(19:59):
I want them to trust me that Iwill handle things.
when they come up.
It's not, trust me thateverything is going to be
perfect because it's never gonnahappen.
Yeah.
But trust me, that I will handlethings swiftly, appropriately,
and with, with decisive action.
(20:22):
And I think that's all thatpeople want.
Kate (20:24):
Yeah.
But as the sandwich generation,right?
Our parents are in thesecommunities and, and we're
raising children, we really needto know that our parents.
If they're in our communitiesare taken care of.
Here's one thing, and I saidthis a long time ago, and I say
this all the time to teams Ilead.
so, so put yourself in the shoesof an adult daughter, son who's
(20:44):
having to shop senior living.
And really making sure that theplace that they choose doesn't
just have, the best amenities,but really cares about my mom or
dad understands them and willfind ways to engage them and
give them meaning and purpose.
That's what's really importantto me, not the granite
countertops.
if you have a father like myfather who is everything to me,
(21:07):
he worked as a machinist for 44years.
He made a great wage.
He wage for a machinist.
He had a pen, he has a pension,and so he is doing fine.
He's 87, but his dollars thathe's saved is, has been, is now
being used for his care.
So in exchange, if my dad isspending down everything he
(21:28):
worked for to, for care andservices, I can tell you as a
leader in senior living, manyare like him and I'm gonna
commit the same way back.
It's so important that ourresidents have worked hard, to
get here and in, in return we'rerespecting that and, treating
them with care and with highquality care and services.
(21:49):
I have to trust that my teamunderstands how important that
is to me.
But I've, I say it over and overlike, I am so committed, to our
residents and I need you to bethere committed with me.
and it's those moments and thosemessaging, those micro
messaging.
Yeah.
Sometimes I feel like I'm I'mrepeating myself all the time,
but I think that thatconsistency too is you have to
(22:11):
hear things many, many times,but I want them to know that I'm
really serious.
And as leaders, we want our, ourteams to know we're really
serious about them and about theproduct, which is the care and
services we deliver.
So, yeah.
Erin (22:25):
How many times do we see a Budweiser or a model or a Corona
commercial during a footballgame?
I mean like Yep.
That they understand it.
They understand marketingmessaging.
And so as leaders, we have tounderstand that too.
we were talking earlier beforethis, and I think it's important
to, to bring it back up aboutcourageous leadership and hard
calls, which is something thatyou've already mentioned.
(22:46):
Mm-hmm.
And The clearest kind message issomething that I feel like
leaders inside the industrystruggle with.
I think that have struggled withthat messaging too, nice.
Leader versus kind leader, whichis something that you so
graciously, defined to me.
So, let's humanize what it lookslike to lead with courage.
(23:08):
It's not with a spear and aWarrior Shield, right?
Like it really is.
Yeah, courageous to have a veryclear and kind conversation.
I have worked with my ownclients about this and what it
looks like and the realizationsthat they're having, like, oh,
oh, this is kind because all themud and the tension that we're
(23:34):
swimming in is because we're notclear.
So let's define that a littlebit for our lead, for our,
Kate (23:40):
I, I think that most important part of courage is
that it's putting pe otherpeople first, even when it's
difficult.
Mm-hmm.
and so to be courageous is, likeyou said, not about being, a
warrior and, being armed.
That's not what it is.
It's really sometimes exitingour comfortable space for the
(24:01):
sake of somebody else.
it's a virtue in a sense that.
You'll give, for others beforeyourself.
And when I talk about niceversus kind leaders, really what
I'm boiling it down to is.
To be a kind leader, one thatgives feedback, one that has
difficult conversations, onethat cares and takes the extra
(24:23):
step for, for another that is ontheir team or is a peer,
courageous.
it's, again, we've talked aboutthis already.
The, these kind of concepts area lot of work.
but I'll tell you, for someleaders it comes naturally that
they're just inclined, to dothat.
But others.
It takes practice and, and takeswork.
The nice leader doesn't reallywanna have to lead with courage.
(24:44):
They would rather have things becalm.
And while kind leaders willcreate that, they'll actually
take, do the work to get, to geteveryone to that point.
Mm-hmm.
The, the really big questionthat a courageous leader asks
is, what's the human impact inthis?
in senior living we might seethat margins have tightened or
(25:08):
that we're over, ouradministration fees, our labor
is over what we anticipated themto be.
A courageous leader will sitdown.
and think about all thealternatives, to solve for that,
besides just slashing heads,right?
That's EAs that's easy.
That's so easy to do.
Say, oh, we've gotta.
Lower by two ft e.
(25:29):
This this month?
No.
Let's think about the impact ofthat.
If we cut two FTEs, how is thatgonna impact the team?
How is that gonna impact theresidents?
What will happen if we do this?
And courageous leaders will sortof test those things and make
decisions differently.
So instead of slashing two FTEs,what if we look at the expenses
from another side to see if wecan balance some of that stuff?
(25:51):
Because humans are the commoditythat makes our business, you
know what it is?
Yeah.
And so courageous leaders willalways think about the human
impact and whether they're ableto have some discomfort, to
solve for it.
So, discomfort might be, I'vegotta spend some time evaluating
this and.
(26:12):
you know, working to solve forit.
Besides taking the standard,we're done two FTEs out the door
and now I've, I'm back in goodgraces, but is that really what
we need to do or can we thinkabout things differently?
Erin (26:23):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's a human component.
It's having the hardconversations and taking the
time.
To dive into it.
believe that every problem has aroot and we don't wanna take the
time to solve the root.
We want, we want to take thetime to just cut the weeds off,
(26:47):
you know, cut the problem off atthe top and it'll come back,
Kate (26:50):
but we won't.
Right?
Yes.
Erin (26:52):
Yes.
And, and I feel.
In this time, in this industryand where we are with the rise
of, we're gonna have so manycustomers, and now the hard
part's going to be finding thepeople to take care of them.
Kate (27:08):
They're, they don't, they're not alive, right?
So what do we do?
Erin (27:11):
Right.
We've got, we've got a rootproblem here.
And, and I think that, it's a,it's a perfect time to write a
book like this and to, to betalking about topics like this
because we want to fill ourcommunity with, with leaders,
with residents and leaders whounderstand the humanness.
(27:33):
Of this, of this profession, andit can create that culture and
then it just feeds itself.
Kate (27:41):
Mm-hmm.
I'll give you an example, Erin.
In senior living, this specificthing and what you're talking
about with root cause, that'sreally the, that goes back to
Lean Six Sigma and Deming and,you know, GE and, and Toyota and
the things go back to where theprocess, could have failed
versus the person right.
In senior living, you'll see.
(28:01):
we'll have a CNA maybe who hasabs an absenteeism problem.
And we actually, and I've seenthis done so many times, it's so
frustrating.
We'll say like, you know, theyhave to go, they're, it's not
gonna work out.
They're not, they're not a goodteam member.
instead of having a conversationof.
Hey, what's causing this?
You know, you're reallyimportant to our team.
What's causing this?
Only to find out that theirchild's school starts at eight.
(28:25):
Their shift here starts atseven, so they're chronically
gonna be late, and we're notaddressing that.
But they're, you know, when theycome to work, they're fantastic
solving for the root.
there's examples of overdocumenting because we couldn't
trust that it was documentedonce I saw this.
Once they had our, their nursesdocumenting the chart three
times.
(28:45):
They knew it wasn't gonnahappen, but at least if they got
one, which was the re theregulatory requirement, they
felt good about it.
Like what?
So you had teams frustrated withhaving to over document and
instead of addressing the issue.
Right.
So there's root to all of thesethings and a courageous leader
(29:05):
will say, there's somethingunder the surface.
I can't take this for surfacevalue.
You know, there, there'ssomething more.
Erin (29:12):
Yeah.
the last, main perspective pointthat we wanna talk about, that
you discussed in this book isthat ties into all of this would
be the total rewards fail thatwe see inside the senior living
profession.
And it's an easy.
(29:34):
Trap to fall into, right?
Mm-hmm.
Let me tell you about all thebenefits that you're going to
get.
Mm-hmm.
And let's accidentally leave outthe human component of why
people wanna work anyways besidea paycheck, which is to grow.
Right?
So talk to us about the mythsabout retention and The total
(29:57):
rewards fail because I had tolook that up.
What does she mean by that?
So.
Kate (30:03):
Find that.
I think it's really important tounderstand, like you had said,
that total rewards isn't justyour comp.
And your benefits, right?
Those are standard.
Your total rewards is biggerpicture and total rewards is a
sense of belonging and purposeand development.
and really a purpose andengagement and all of that tied
(30:23):
together.
And there's a way for you to beable to create a total rewards
platform that says to the teammember.
I see you individually and Iwant to provide you something,
that works for you and yourneeds.
I think total rewards programs,are clearly failing, team
members when they don't matchtheir workforce needs.
(30:46):
So the benefits that we givethem don't fit their life.
For example, I'm 22 years old.
And I want to go on to schooland instead of having a robust
tuition reimbursement plan,you've provided me with with.
A retirement plan that is great,but I'm 22.
(31:07):
I'm not even thinking aboutthat.
what are my immediate needs nowand how do I grow them?
That's that, that's thatcustomization that needs to be,
designed based on what we'veasked them.
what those are.
And then, total reward planswill fail.
If we're missing the unmetneeds, and I talk about this a
lot, and I'm passionate aboutreally understanding the unmet
(31:29):
needs of our team membersbecause we're creating
stickiness, right?
We want'em to stay.
And if we can meet those needs,we've moved mountains for them
and we've created that retentionthat we're looking for.
and so some of the unmet needsthat a team member may have are
things like, obviouslycompetitive compensation, but
maybe the financial stability issomething that they're striving
(31:52):
for and they can't get to.
So understanding their, theirstresses like their debt, living
paycheck to paycheck andoffering them some financial,
advisement, a session with afinancial advisor to get them to
that stability, they're craving.
Career growth and development.
I mean, we could talk about thisall day.
An unmet need is if I don't seeI'm going anywhere, I'm probably
(32:15):
not gonna stay.
I, I need to, I'm human, I needto grow, I need to develop, and
I need to, really find purposeand fulfillment in the work that
I do.
If, if I'm, if I'm a, an inputto your output, then it doesn't
really feel good.
I don't feel like I'm doingmuch.
The other unmet need in this ism more prevalent during is since
(32:36):
COVID is really understandingthat people will prioritize
themselves and their family asmuch as their job.
So we need to understand what'simportant to them.
Maybe they need flexibility forcare of loved ones.
You know, our parents need help,our children need help.
maybe they have their own healthchallenges and they need some
(32:56):
flexibility around that.
Maybe they just want more timeto them for themselves to
develop themselves with theirown personal interests, and they
have things they wanna do.
And so if we can offerflexibility, we should, and it
shouldn't be something we hideaway.
I think sometimes in seniorliving we're used to shift work,
and so flexibility is like, hmm,not a lot of flexibility.
(33:19):
But what if we really created adynamic scheduling?
System, where the team memberscould create flexibility and not
be locked in the way we'retraditionally programmed, to do.
Erin (33:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that would be a total reward.
that would be like a veryencompassing'cause there are
people who want.
The structure, the four on two,off the, three, whatever it is,
that structure of that.
And then there are people whodon't.
And so there is, you know, withthat technology and everything,
(33:52):
there is a way to make thatwork.
we just have to, again, this isa look at the root, root
problem.
Kate (33:58):
Right.
This is an on demand world,right?
So how do we, and it's scarybecause we're like, we gotta
have three on, three on firstshift and two.
Erin (34:07):
Mm-hmm.
I
Kate (34:08):
totally get that.
But how do we create a pool tobe able to, to have on demand?
I'm gonna pick up a shift today.
My, college student does thatwith, she works at Target,
right?
And she can, if she feels likeshe has time, she'll pick up
five hours.
And, and I think, yeah, butthat's retail.
That's not serving people.
(34:28):
But, but the solution to that islet's create a pool of talented
people that have this on demandplatform to work with.
Yeah.
And I think that's out there,there, that's, I'm, I'm seeing
that now, which is cool.
but ultimately there's notenough caregivers.
So you can have flexiblescheduling, but you gotta have
all those other things.
That creates them to choose youover staying home that day, you
(34:51):
know, and picking up that shift.
Erin (34:53):
Yeah.
It's so true.
Okay, last question.
If you had a magic wand and youcould build the most perfect
leadership development, seniorliving, you know, growth plan,
what would that look like?
Kate (35:08):
Yeah, so, I wish I had not, I don't wish I had a magic
wand.
I wish I had.
I was working with the companyto be able to do this and see,
you know, really kind of havethis, this tried and tested
program.
But this is what I think itlooks like.
It really is that everyone inthe organization, top to bottom,
(35:30):
you could have 40 communities,senior living communities, or
you could have two every, everyperson that works in the
organization within their first30 days.
Has a development planningsession.
And in that planning developmentsession, which in creating
stickiness, I give the whole,the whole template for, because
I think it's really important.
you are talking about short-termgoals, long-term goals,
(35:52):
personal, professional, levels,you know, if someone wants to be
aspires to be a CEO of a seniorliving organization today, well
there are steps, right?
So what is the next step and howdo you get there?
What are you lacking?
These are candid conversationbetween you and I.
I would do this, and then fromthat point, they have that
within that first 30 days, theyhave their initial development
(36:13):
plan and then every quarter tosix months.
And I know I've talked withother leaders about that.
They're like, no way.
No way.
You can't do that.
But actually think about it,that ownership is really on
their manager and we're trainingthem how to do that.
So every quarter, every sixmonths at least, we're following
back up.
Did you take that Excel coursethat I had, offered, I had, told
(36:37):
you about did you do this, helpthem graduate through to
different levels so that whenthere's a different position,
they're primed and pumped,they're ready to go.
maybe it's some of the socialcues they need, professionalism
and some of those pieces thatthey haven't been taught about.
having.
The ability to provide them withsome of those things.
(36:57):
That development plan is moreimportant than your annual
reviews, which nobody takesseriously.
it's so important for someone toknow that the organization they
work with cares for them, and.
I think that, we can talk aboutdevelopment plans all day long.
If you're not thinking about it,you're really missing the mark.
(37:18):
And senior living is so vulvulnerable to a lack of team
members with workforce, that wereally have to plan and think
for development.
It's not extra and it's notsome, a department that
shouldn't be there and itshouldn't be given to hr.
as a, it's an HR functionbecause nobody knows that team
member better than their leader.
(37:39):
And so that development has tocome from leaders and that we
have to equip our leaders withthe tools to be able to develop.
Erin (37:46):
Yeah, I, I do think that there needs to be a, some type
of development plan, some typeof growth environment.
You know, we as an industry wantto pay more money.
To people and think that thatwill be sticky to use your
words, but it's not.
I have seen it firsthand wherewe were able to give a bunch of
people a huge increase and insix months they wanted more.
(38:11):
You know?
But really some of these reportsthat are out there about
retention is they want money,but they also want their leaders
to be better.
Yeah.
And I think that you can, thatpeople will stay in a community
where they belong.
That's sticky that, that theytrust as long as the leader is,
(38:34):
is growing.
'cause when the leader getsbetter, everyone, everyone
benefits from that, you know?
Yeah.
So it, it becomes like, to me,the growth of the leader is when
you grow the leader, thecommunity grows.
Kate (38:47):
I think about total re in total rewards.
I think about compensationactually last.
Yeah.
Here's what I think about it.
Compensation.
I've never been at top of marketin, in compensating.
My team never been.
Bottom right.
I'm always within, so I'mcompetitive.
That's where I stay because ifI'm putting all my time into, or
(39:08):
if I'm putting a lot of timeinto the other pieces, comp is
just your foundation.
It's all the other things thatare important and people know
that.
Yeah.
Erin (39:20):
I I, what I know now is that I would go to a company
that is going to value my growthas much as I do.
I did not know that five yearsago.
Mm-hmm.
But I know that now.
I think
Kate (39:31):
it's changed, right, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We weren't talking about thisstuff'cause there are plenty of
us.
And so now it's like, hmm, if Iwanna keep Aaron, if I wanna
keep Kate, I, I have to do more.
And it's not tied to comp.
Be competitive, but you don'thave to be, right.
The top.
And you, you referenced itearlier, that pressure.
Mm-hmm.
(39:51):
I've seen it happen, especiallyduring COVID.
We would raise compensation.
Some of it needed to be, so thatwas fine.
But there was constant pressure.
And like you said, every sixmonths there was comp pressure.
and you know what wasinteresting?
It was never mid-level leaders.
You know, up it was thefrontline.
And to me that was a totaldisplay of a disconnection
(40:14):
between the executive leadershipwho had all these beliefs and,
and, feelings about all thegreat things the team were doing
in the field.
But did they know that?
Erin (40:25):
Yeah.
So true.
All right.
Tell us, tell us where they canget the book.
It's, it's on Amazon and I'llput a link in the show notes.
Uh, but anywhere else they canget the book.
Kate (40:35):
It is on amazon.com.
and it's both, paperback andebook.
And right now we're working onthe audio.
I've been asked Kate, what'sgoing on with that?
It's being spoken right now, sowe'll get that out there soon,
but I so appreciate you havingme today.
Erin (40:50):
Yeah, I love this episode.
There's so much good stuff inthis episode.
If you're a leader, aperspective shift, if you're,
you know, a regional director ora hire, a perspective shift, to
me perspective is such a gift,for those who are in the moment
and in the muck sometimes.
So get this book.
creating stickiness.
(41:11):
Sticky is really important.
We want people to stay.
Thank you so much, Kate, forsharing, your wisdom with us.
It is.
Very valuable.
So to all my listeners, asalways, aspire for more for you
knowing with the foundation thatgrowth is the goal, influences
the outcome, and that you areenough.
(41:32):
Have a great day.
Welcome back to another episode.
I'm so happy that you're herewith us today.
I am excited about my guesttoday'cause she is an author.
I can't wait for you to hearabout this book.
Most people talk about culturelike it's a project, but what if
it's actually a reflection?
A reflection of how we lead, howwe listen, and whether people
(00:20):
believe they belong even on thehard days, days that we mess up.
Days that we make a mistake,days that we feel like we don't
wanna come back.
Today I am joined by KateBertram, former CEO and author
of the new book, creatingStickiness, how Stickiness
Transforms Your Bottom Line.
(00:40):
And she's also a bold voice inthe senior living leadership
space from her early days as aCNA to leading an entire
organization.
Kate brings a perspective shapedby experience, courage, and the
kind of honesty.
That I love and that we needmore of in this field.
In this episode, we're talkingabout why culture is the result,
(01:03):
not the initiative.
Why total rewards often fail tocreate real engagement and how
to lead with trust,accountability, and courage, and
high turnover, high emotionindustries like ours.
So this episode is for you.
If you are leading a team,building a company, or just
trying to hold it together,stick with us the entire episode
(01:26):
and you'll leave withconversations of frameworks,
real talk from a CEO, a formerCEO, and a reminder that the
soft stuff is the hard stuff.
Don't let anybody fool you.
And it's what matters most.
So, Kate, welcome to theepisode.
(01:46):
I'm so happy that you're herewith us.
Thank you.
Kate (01:48):
Thank you, Erin.
I'm so glad to be here.
Erin (01:51):
Yes, a former CEO and now an author.
I love the word stickiness.
I think that there is somethingreally, really important about
that.
with our industry, and we wantour people to stick.
We want our values to stick.
We want our culture to stick.
We want all that st we want themto stay.
And so I think it's reallyimportant that you are writing a
(02:13):
book to help us figure out howto be sticky.
And culture is a huge piece ofthat.
And I like how you say it's theresult.
Not the initiative.
So tell us what you mean bythat.
Kate (02:26):
that's probably, one of the most important points is
that culture isn't a poster on awall.
Culture isn't what theorganization says it is, and,
it's not a marketing campaign.
Culture is what it feels like ona Tuesday afternoon.
In in a stressful situation,that's culture, how people act,
how people respond based on allof the inputs, that have been
(02:48):
created.
And what I mean by that is.
the leadership style of theorganizationthe acts of courage
or the type of leaders that arein the organization, what they
see, walking the walk, not justtalking the talk.
All of those are what creates aculture.
It's not ping pong tables, andit's not free Starbucks.
It's, how am I treated?
(03:09):
What is the exchange?
the return on my investment andwhat that feels like, and you
can't fake it.
We all, we all know, we've allbeen team members at all
different levels of theorganization, and you can't
fake, mission, vision, andvalues.
it's really what the actions isaround those things.
it's clear, it's a mirroressentially.
Erin (03:29):
Yes.
Good culture.
And keep the pizza parties andgive me a free Starbucks gift
card and put the posters on thewall.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
But you can't have the freepizza, the coffee without.
Belonging, you know?
Kate (03:45):
Exactly.
because those things becomeperks.
Yeah.
And those are great.
Like I love free coffee and I, Ilove pizza.
Right?
So we all do.
So those are great and Iappreciate them.
Those are perks though to me.
Those are, those are not thingsthat will keep me working for a
toxic leader, for example.
Yes.
Those are things that I just.
(04:06):
Will consume or mm-hmm.
Erin (04:08):
You know,
Kate (04:08):
okay.
So, we really need to thinkabout, culture tools, as, are
they perks or are they trulyconnected back to the person and
to ultimately the mission andthe values of the organization.
The perks should really just,those are just icing on the
cake.
and thinking of it that way isreally important.
Erin (04:30):
So how do we know when culture's working?
Like how do we, from a, from aninside community standpoint, you
walk into a building and you canfeel it.
Mm-hmm.
Do you feel it, that's, that'swhy that soft stuff is, is
really important, but from ahigher level perspective in how
you wrote this book.
What are some frameworks, somepaths, what is your area of
(04:55):
focus?
Kate (04:55):
I think when you're thinking about culture in the
organization in a stickyorganization.
You start with reallyunderstanding what culture isn't
or what are the common pitfalls,because I think it's really
important to avoid some of thosethings before you even create,
before you take it to that,level of creating that
foundation.
So, things like, lip service andsaying that, that this is the
(05:20):
way we do things and this is howwe treat one another, but yet.
The actions, don't take thatsame direction, is something
that we need to be keenly awareof in developing, the culture.
It's, that pitfall, the dailyreality.
If it's not aligned to whatwe're saying, just completely
erodes trust and will, will,you'll lose, any momentum
(05:43):
you've, gained in the culture.
And then the other is reallyidentifying ahead of time.
What is observable from a shadowculture?
So what I mean by that isthinking about, the unspoken
rules, the, the clicks, thenetworks, the unwritten norms
that are already in place andunderstanding first whether that
(06:05):
exists, and thinking about howyou're going to counteract to
those kind of things when you,when you think about developing.
your culture, and then youreally need to be assessing the
accountability.
How accountable, are yourleaders to the culture?
So if the CEO of an organizationsays, this is what I'd like,
(06:28):
what I'd like to be known for inour culture, these are the
things, right?
We lay that out.
And then, your middle, yourmiddle level leaders are
actually counterintuitive or arecounteracting those things.
the culture becomes the oppositeor essentially falls flat.
and so the culture can't bestatic, right?
We can't just say this is itnow, and it's a one size fits
(06:52):
all.
so when we think about what weneed to do to create a sticky
culture in one that everyonewants to be part of, it's really
linking your culture to, topurpose.
And I say that really genuinely,and not in the overused term.
you know, it's a purpose,purpose, purpose, but really
(07:12):
understanding that the workeveryone does at every level of
the organization links back tothe purpose for the reason that
they're there.
And it really reinforces.
something that's really, teammembers really want, and it's to
be part of something bigger.
especially our younger workers,right?
They wanna be part of somethingand, and feel like they make an
(07:32):
impact.
Tying back to purpose in allmoments, is really important.
And again, can't say thisenough, it's not what the CEO
says, it's what the what, whenthe, when the rubber hits the
road, what we're saying and whatwe're feeling, in senior living
in communities.
are our.
Executive directors saying, whatare our, our managers saying?
and then really that weunderstand that those same
(07:55):
leaders I'm talking about,they're what I call like culture
carriers.
So it's their job to take theinitiatives and the ideas that
create a good, strong culturethat, you know, there's lots of
books written on this, butthey're the culture carriers.
So really making sure thatthey're well equipped.
To be that person that theyunderstand that this is how we
(08:17):
address a, a situation.
We hold others accountable.
Everyone really wants that,whether they say it or not, that
we lead, with courage, we makehard decisions and then, that we
establish trust over and over.
You know, they say that trust inculture, trust is something
that.
Is like a drop in a bucket.
(08:37):
It takes time, it takes constantpractice.
And then once the bucket's full,you know, we've established that
trust, but it, we can lose it asquickly as failing.
you know, our team members, bynot being honest, not being
transparent, not explaining thewhy tip the bucket and all the
water drains out.
So it's fragile and those middleleaders need to be the, the
(08:58):
culture carriers.
The other piece with culture isthat team members need to have a
voice and need to feel a senseof ownership.
Mm-hmm.
And what I mean by that is, Iwanna be heard if I'm a CNA, or
in dining services, I want youto ask me what I think.
I want you to listen to what Ithink.
(09:18):
I want you to, you know, to knowmy voice is heard and I want you
to follow up and show thatyou've listened and that you're
evaluating.
You might not, I might not likethe answer I'm getting, but darn
it, if my voice is heard, I feellike I'm connected.
And so we need to give a, a lotto that, that voice and that
ownership.
Erin (09:40):
Yeah, I think that people.
When you're turning a culturearound, or you're trying to be
very intentional with theculture that you're trying to
build, whether you're a newleader inside of a new company,
whatever your circumstance is.
I think there's one word thatpeople get hung up on and it's
consistency because it's hard tokeep doing the same things when
(10:03):
you don't see the benefits ofyour work, when you don't see
the fruits of your labor andgrowth is very minimal.
And I tell people all the time,you have to look for the small
changes, micro
Kate (10:20):
mm-hmm.
Erin (10:22):
Micro changes, like the really, really small ones,
because otherwise you are goingto get discouraged.
And that is the number one thingthat ke, that keeps leaders from
growing, from being consistentis because it's, it's being
discouraged, but culture is along game.
It is not a short game.
And I think that people need tounderstand that.
Kate (10:42):
Right.
It's the, it's the result.
There are, opportunities tocreate micro moments, that
contribute to the culture.
They're more important than anymillion dollar marketing
campaign on culture, right?
Those micro moments, thosemoments of saying thank you.
Those moments of public andprivate recognition, right?
Sometimes, Your team membersdon't want you to put their name
(11:04):
on a sign.
They would just appreciate averbal, thank you.
And those micro moments, in, inthe hallways, walking the halls
and you know, meeting withsomeone who's struggling to show
that you're committed are worth,that's the culture.
Yes.
That's the culture you create.
Erin (11:22):
Yes, the power of presence is a big, big deal.
So when we talk aboutconsistency and culture and
presence and all that, like thatis building trust.
Building trust is a must.
For new leaders.
Leaders have been doing this fora long time.
because trust is like theoxygen, right?
(11:47):
The new currency of leadership.
And in the world that we're intoday, trust is hard to come by.
It is hard to come by.
so it sounds like a buzzword.
but how, what are some actualsystems, that you believe that
we can use to build trust insideof our community?
Because the people that we haveinside of our communities at
(12:10):
every layer, some of the layersare harder to, to gain their
trust.
Kate (12:17):
Yep.
So I think, you nailed it, youknow, earlier with consistency.
You, you, you have to beconsistent in your actions, your
words, to create trust so thatsomeone really knows that they
can, they can predict what youwould say, what you think, what
you would do, and really feelsome level of autonomy to be
(12:40):
able to make decisions on theirown.
and I think it's just likepersonal relationships.
We need to trust our spouse.
We need to trust those peoplearound us, that, that builds the
relationship.
It's the same, at work and, andeven the most trying times trust
will be.
the, the secret sauce, if youdon't have trust in those really
(13:02):
stressful times, you're gonnastruggle if, if the team doesn't
trust you or you don't trust theteam.
Hemingway says the easiest wayto find out whether, you can
trust someone.
Is to trust them, right?
give it a chance.
so give them a chance to fail,right?
I, I, I think that's, that'smore important than it's gonna
(13:24):
take longer for you as a leader,for your team to trust you.
And we have a group of skepticalteam members at times.
and I think you, like you said.
Everyone has different personalexperiences.
They come with.
Maybe they come from anenvironment that trust isn't a
thing, and so they come to workand, are skeptical of, of
(13:44):
leadership.
And so by being consistent eachand every day with how you, are,
you know, walking the walk,talking the talk, making those
things consistent, they can seethat in you that you're genuine
and you're real.
and trust is, is.
Super, super vulnerable,commodity in that, if you are
(14:05):
fake and you are not genuine in,in your level of caring for
them, and, and what they'remaybe going through or what they
need, it's, it's a recipe fordisaster If you listen.
Take action and action might notalways be what, what someone
wants, but action is.
I listened, I evaluated, I, youknow, I looked at it and now I'm
(14:29):
circling back.
You create a circle of trustthat they say they think that
themselves, okay, he or shereally cares about my feedback
and we need that.
you can break months ofgoodwill, by making errors in
trust.
So that's that.
That surface, like I'll say thisto you to make you happy.
It's that nice versus kindleader I might say to you,
(14:52):
whatever.
I think you need to sort oftemper this, the situation
instead of really drilling into,let's take a look.
What do you think would makethis better?
Or how can I help, in beinggenuine about it?
Yeah.
So, I think that.
When we talk about leadership, Ithink the important points are,
(15:12):
you know, having courage,holding people accountable.
But I think it starts withtrust.
When I've, in my roles, whenI've walked into communities, I
know there's a level of, oh,she's here.
And so everyone's perfectlypoised.
you know, the, the community,the physical plant is, is
shining, and there's all ofthat.
But what I do is come in, as apartner to them and I drill
(15:35):
into, not whether there's duston a picture frame, but how's it
going?
How, you know, how, how, what'sreally good about this?
Tell me something that's reallygood here.
So starting that, not just tellme what could be better.
Tell me what's working reallygood and people will tell you
that.
Then what could we do better?
what are your challenges?
I'm building trust by sittingdown and giving someone my time
(15:56):
and really my genuine care forwhat they're doing.
after you do that and you repeatit.
Many times I'll go back intocommunities and I'll get high
fives walking in the door.
So the formality, the hierarchy,nobody who cares don't want
that.
I would rather have someone thatI've spent five minutes with
give me a nudge or give me ahigh five.
(16:17):
because it's, to me, it's amirror of the trust that we've
established.
that's really important.
Erin (16:23):
I think for new leaders and for, and for leaders rising
in the ranks.
Trust is, is hard to build, butit doesn't require a lot of
action, really.
And I say action, I mean, itrequires you to listen, like you
said, to listen.
(16:43):
Mm-hmm.
And maybe that requires a lot ofenergy from you because you
wanna go in there and say, doesNo, no, no.
He does.
You need to do this.
it's, it's the glue.
It is it the stickiness of it?
And, and it's the same.
This is why I am so passionatelybelieve that leadership is
sales, and sales is servicebecause it's the same concepts.
change happens at the speed oftrust from a sales perspective
(17:05):
and from a leadershipperspective.
And so, like you said, how doyou build trust?
Number one, you just have totrust them.
That goes, that may go againstevery bone in your body, but
just allow it, have somecontingency plans.
But allow, it's like
Kate (17:21):
parenting, right?
Yes.
Parenting, yes.
You have to trust until youcan't, and then you put things
in place.
But really in, from aprofessional standpoint, when
trust is broken, when, when I,as a leader have broken trust
with someone that I've giventrust to, I look within myself
to say, where did I go wrong inthis?
(17:43):
did I delegate too fast?
Were they unequipped to do whatI asked them to do?
Did I not consider the fiveother things that are on their
plate?
Those things.
So that first personalreflection, but if I can't find
something, which sometimeshappens, I'll take it back to
that person because I want tore-give trust too.
and really re-give trust in agenuine manner.
(18:04):
Like, I'm not gonna get in mycar, drive away from the
community and be skeptical ofthe conversation.
I'm going to re-give trustbecause again, I need that glue
and I need, it takes time.
It a ton of energy for sure.
I think that leaders areexhausted by the end of the day.
There are days you remember thistoo, right?
(18:24):
Like being absolutely exhaustedand not by the work we do, but
the relationship development.
Yes.
in my last organization, we wentthrough the most trying time an
organization can go through, andI had to deliver some really
hard messages and I reallystruggled with what I had to do
in delivering these toughmessages, but I had established
trust with the organizationalleaders, at the community level,
(18:47):
at mid-level, and.
The executive, team.
And so to deliver a message in aroom or on a call with people
that you know, you'veestablished trust with and about
really difficult things is aheck of a lot easier than being
in a room of skeptics.
But that's because I've takenthe time, to develop that.
I think that leadership piece isabout humility too, right?
(19:08):
Like we all come with flaws.
We admit them.
when a leader to create trust,when a leader will tell you the
mistakes they made.
Yeah.
Or in a meeting say, you knowwhat?
I looked at that and I thought Iwas looking at this and it was a
mistake.
Boy, do you really give a levelof I'm human and you are too.
So let's be human together.
Because I think trust is, ishuman in, in our industry, we're
(19:32):
that our product is people.
So yeah,
Erin (19:35):
we're taking care of some of the most important people.
Kate (19:38):
Oh my gosh.
Erin (19:39):
Of.
People's lives, right?
Like, you know, like mygrandmother lived in my
community and, and other peopleI knew, you know, their parents
lived in my community.
Like, when you think about thatfrom a trust perspective, like
that's, that's a lot.
(19:59):
I want them to trust me that Iwill handle things.
when they come up.
It's not, trust me thateverything is going to be
perfect because it's never gonnahappen.
Yeah.
But trust me, that I will handlethings swiftly, appropriately,
and with, with decisive action.
(20:22):
And I think that's all thatpeople want.
Kate (20:24):
Yeah.
But as the sandwich generation,right?
Our parents are in thesecommunities and, and we're
raising children, we really needto know that our parents.
If they're in our communitiesare taken care of.
Here's one thing, and I saidthis a long time ago, and I say
this all the time to teams Ilead.
so, so put yourself in the shoesof an adult daughter, son who's
(20:44):
having to shop senior living.
And really making sure that theplace that they choose doesn't
just have, the best amenities,but really cares about my mom or
dad understands them and willfind ways to engage them and
give them meaning and purpose.
That's what's really importantto me, not the granite
countertops.
if you have a father like myfather who is everything to me,
(21:07):
he worked as a machinist for 44years.
He made a great wage.
He wage for a machinist.
He had a pen, he has a pension,and so he is doing fine.
He's 87, but his dollars thathe's saved is, has been, is now
being used for his care.
So in exchange, if my dad isspending down everything he
(21:28):
worked for to, for care andservices, I can tell you as a
leader in senior living, manyare like him and I'm gonna
commit the same way back.
It's so important that ourresidents have worked hard, to
get here and in, in return we'rerespecting that and, treating
them with care and with highquality care and services.
(21:49):
I have to trust that my teamunderstands how important that
is to me.
But I've, I say it over and overlike, I am so committed, to our
residents and I need you to bethere committed with me.
and it's those moments and thosemessaging, those micro
messaging.
Yeah.
Sometimes I feel like I'm I'mrepeating myself all the time,
but I think that thatconsistency too is you have to
(22:11):
hear things many, many times,but I want them to know that I'm
really serious.
And as leaders, we want our, ourteams to know we're really
serious about them and about theproduct, which is the care and
services we deliver.
So, yeah.
Erin (22:25):
How many times do we see a Budweiser or a model or a Corona
commercial during a footballgame?
I mean like Yep.
That they understand it.
They understand marketingmessaging.
And so as leaders, we have tounderstand that too.
we were talking earlier beforethis, and I think it's important
to, to bring it back up aboutcourageous leadership and hard
calls, which is something thatyou've already mentioned.
(22:46):
Mm-hmm.
And The clearest kind message issomething that I feel like
leaders inside the industrystruggle with.
I think that have struggled withthat messaging too, nice.
Leader versus kind leader, whichis something that you so
graciously, defined to me.
So, let's humanize what it lookslike to lead with courage.
(23:08):
It's not with a spear and aWarrior Shield, right?
Like it really is.
Yeah, courageous to have a veryclear and kind conversation.
I have worked with my ownclients about this and what it
looks like and the realizationsthat they're having, like, oh,
oh, this is kind because all themud and the tension that we're
(23:34):
swimming in is because we're notclear.
So let's define that a littlebit for our lead, for our,
Kate (23:40):
I, I think that most important part of courage is
that it's putting pe otherpeople first, even when it's
difficult.
Mm-hmm.
and so to be courageous is, likeyou said, not about being, a
warrior and, being armed.
That's not what it is.
It's really sometimes exitingour comfortable space for the
(24:01):
sake of somebody else.
it's a virtue in a sense that.
You'll give, for others beforeyourself.
And when I talk about niceversus kind leaders, really what
I'm boiling it down to is.
To be a kind leader, one thatgives feedback, one that has
difficult conversations, onethat cares and takes the extra
(24:23):
step for, for another that is ontheir team or is a peer,
courageous.
it's, again, we've talked aboutthis already.
The, these kind of concepts area lot of work.
but I'll tell you, for someleaders it comes naturally that
they're just inclined, to dothat.
But others.
It takes practice and, and takeswork.
The nice leader doesn't reallywanna have to lead with courage.
(24:44):
They would rather have things becalm.
And while kind leaders willcreate that, they'll actually
take, do the work to get, to geteveryone to that point.
Mm-hmm.
The, the really big questionthat a courageous leader asks
is, what's the human impact inthis?
in senior living we might seethat margins have tightened or
(25:08):
that we're over, ouradministration fees, our labor
is over what we anticipated themto be.
A courageous leader will sitdown.
and think about all thealternatives, to solve for that,
besides just slashing heads,right?
That's EAs that's easy.
That's so easy to do.
Say, oh, we've gotta.
Lower by two ft e.
(25:29):
This this month?
No.
Let's think about the impact ofthat.
If we cut two FTEs, how is thatgonna impact the team?
How is that gonna impact theresidents?
What will happen if we do this?
And courageous leaders will sortof test those things and make
decisions differently.
So instead of slashing two FTEs,what if we look at the expenses
from another side to see if wecan balance some of that stuff?
(25:51):
Because humans are the commoditythat makes our business, you
know what it is?
Yeah.
And so courageous leaders willalways think about the human
impact and whether they're ableto have some discomfort, to
solve for it.
So, discomfort might be, I'vegotta spend some time evaluating
this and.
(26:12):
you know, working to solve forit.
Besides taking the standard,we're done two FTEs out the door
and now I've, I'm back in goodgraces, but is that really what
we need to do or can we thinkabout things differently?
Erin (26:23):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's a human component.
It's having the hardconversations and taking the
time.
To dive into it.
believe that every problem has aroot and we don't wanna take the
time to solve the root.
We want, we want to take thetime to just cut the weeds off,
(26:47):
you know, cut the problem off atthe top and it'll come back,
Kate (26:50):
but we won't.
Right?
Yes.
Erin (26:52):
Yes.
And, and I feel.
In this time, in this industryand where we are with the rise
of, we're gonna have so manycustomers, and now the hard
part's going to be finding thepeople to take care of them.
Kate (27:08):
They're, they don't, they're not alive, right?
So what do we do?
Erin (27:11):
Right.
We've got, we've got a rootproblem here.
And, and I think that, it's a,it's a perfect time to write a
book like this and to, to betalking about topics like this
because we want to fill ourcommunity with, with leaders,
with residents and leaders whounderstand the humanness.
(27:33):
Of this, of this profession, andit can create that culture and
then it just feeds itself.
Kate (27:41):
Mm-hmm.
I'll give you an example, Erin.
In senior living, this specificthing and what you're talking
about with root cause, that'sreally the, that goes back to
Lean Six Sigma and Deming and,you know, GE and, and Toyota and
the things go back to where theprocess, could have failed
versus the person right.
In senior living, you'll see.
(28:01):
we'll have a CNA maybe who hasabs an absenteeism problem.
And we actually, and I've seenthis done so many times, it's so
frustrating.
We'll say like, you know, theyhave to go, they're, it's not
gonna work out.
They're not, they're not a goodteam member.
instead of having a conversationof.
Hey, what's causing this?
You know, you're reallyimportant to our team.
What's causing this?
Only to find out that theirchild's school starts at eight.
(28:25):
Their shift here starts atseven, so they're chronically
gonna be late, and we're notaddressing that.
But they're, you know, when theycome to work, they're fantastic
solving for the root.
there's examples of overdocumenting because we couldn't
trust that it was documentedonce I saw this.
Once they had our, their nursesdocumenting the chart three
times.
(28:45):
They knew it wasn't gonnahappen, but at least if they got
one, which was the re theregulatory requirement, they
felt good about it.
Like what?
So you had teams frustrated withhaving to over document and
instead of addressing the issue.
Right.
So there's root to all of thesethings and a courageous leader
(29:05):
will say, there's somethingunder the surface.
I can't take this for surfacevalue.
You know, there, there'ssomething more.
Erin (29:12):
Yeah.
the last, main perspective pointthat we wanna talk about, that
you discussed in this book isthat ties into all of this would
be the total rewards fail thatwe see inside the senior living
profession.
And it's an easy.
(29:34):
Trap to fall into, right?
Mm-hmm.
Let me tell you about all thebenefits that you're going to
get.
Mm-hmm.
And let's accidentally leave outthe human component of why
people wanna work anyways besidea paycheck, which is to grow.
Right?
So talk to us about the mythsabout retention and The total
(29:57):
rewards fail because I had tolook that up.
What does she mean by that?
So.
Kate (30:03):
Find that.
I think it's really important tounderstand, like you had said,
that total rewards isn't justyour comp.
And your benefits, right?
Those are standard.
Your total rewards is biggerpicture and total rewards is a
sense of belonging and purposeand development.
and really a purpose andengagement and all of that tied
(30:23):
together.
And there's a way for you to beable to create a total rewards
platform that says to the teammember.
I see you individually and Iwant to provide you something,
that works for you and yourneeds.
I think total rewards programs,are clearly failing, team
members when they don't matchtheir workforce needs.
(30:46):
So the benefits that we givethem don't fit their life.
For example, I'm 22 years old.
And I want to go on to schooland instead of having a robust
tuition reimbursement plan,you've provided me with with.
A retirement plan that is great,but I'm 22.
(31:07):
I'm not even thinking aboutthat.
what are my immediate needs nowand how do I grow them?
That's that, that's thatcustomization that needs to be,
designed based on what we'veasked them.
what those are.
And then, total reward planswill fail.
If we're missing the unmetneeds, and I talk about this a
lot, and I'm passionate aboutreally understanding the unmet
(31:29):
needs of our team membersbecause we're creating
stickiness, right?
We want'em to stay.
And if we can meet those needs,we've moved mountains for them
and we've created that retentionthat we're looking for.
and so some of the unmet needsthat a team member may have are
things like, obviouslycompetitive compensation, but
maybe the financial stability issomething that they're striving
(31:52):
for and they can't get to.
So understanding their, theirstresses like their debt, living
paycheck to paycheck andoffering them some financial,
advisement, a session with afinancial advisor to get them to
that stability, they're craving.
Career growth and development.
I mean, we could talk about thisall day.
An unmet need is if I don't seeI'm going anywhere, I'm probably
(32:15):
not gonna stay.
I, I need to, I'm human, I needto grow, I need to develop, and
I need to, really find purposeand fulfillment in the work that
I do.
If, if I'm, if I'm a, an inputto your output, then it doesn't
really feel good.
I don't feel like I'm doingmuch.
The other unmet need in this ism more prevalent during is since
(32:36):
COVID is really understandingthat people will prioritize
themselves and their family asmuch as their job.
So we need to understand what'simportant to them.
Maybe they need flexibility forcare of loved ones.
You know, our parents need help,our children need help.
maybe they have their own healthchallenges and they need some
(32:56):
flexibility around that.
Maybe they just want more timeto them for themselves to
develop themselves with theirown personal interests, and they
have things they wanna do.
And so if we can offerflexibility, we should, and it
shouldn't be something we hideaway.
I think sometimes in seniorliving we're used to shift work,
and so flexibility is like, hmm,not a lot of flexibility.
(33:19):
But what if we really created adynamic scheduling?
System, where the team memberscould create flexibility and not
be locked in the way we'retraditionally programmed, to do.
Erin (33:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
that would be a total reward.
that would be like a veryencompassing'cause there are
people who want.
The structure, the four on two,off the, three, whatever it is,
that structure of that.
And then there are people whodon't.
And so there is, you know, withthat technology and everything,
(33:52):
there is a way to make thatwork.
we just have to, again, this isa look at the root, root
problem.
Kate (33:58):
Right.
This is an on demand world,right?
So how do we, and it's scarybecause we're like, we gotta
have three on, three on firstshift and two.
Erin (34:07):
Mm-hmm.
I
Kate (34:08):
totally get that.
But how do we create a pool tobe able to, to have on demand?
I'm gonna pick up a shift today.
My, college student does thatwith, she works at Target,
right?
And she can, if she feels likeshe has time, she'll pick up
five hours.
And, and I think, yeah, butthat's retail.
That's not serving people.
(34:28):
But, but the solution to that islet's create a pool of talented
people that have this on demandplatform to work with.
Yeah.
And I think that's out there,there, that's, I'm, I'm seeing
that now, which is cool.
but ultimately there's notenough caregivers.
So you can have flexiblescheduling, but you gotta have
all those other things.
That creates them to choose youover staying home that day, you
(34:51):
know, and picking up that shift.
Erin (34:53):
Yeah.
It's so true.
Okay, last question.
If you had a magic wand and youcould build the most perfect
leadership development, seniorliving, you know, growth plan,
what would that look like?
Kate (35:08):
Yeah, so, I wish I had not, I don't wish I had a magic
wand.
I wish I had.
I was working with the companyto be able to do this and see,
you know, really kind of havethis, this tried and tested
program.
But this is what I think itlooks like.
It really is that everyone inthe organization, top to bottom,
(35:30):
you could have 40 communities,senior living communities, or
you could have two every, everyperson that works in the
organization within their first30 days.
Has a development planningsession.
And in that planning developmentsession, which in creating
stickiness, I give the whole,the whole template for, because
I think it's really important.
you are talking about short-termgoals, long-term goals,
(35:52):
personal, professional, levels,you know, if someone wants to be
aspires to be a CEO of a seniorliving organization today, well
there are steps, right?
So what is the next step and howdo you get there?
What are you lacking?
These are candid conversationbetween you and I.
I would do this, and then fromthat point, they have that
within that first 30 days, theyhave their initial development
(36:13):
plan and then every quarter tosix months.
And I know I've talked withother leaders about that.
They're like, no way.
No way.
You can't do that.
But actually think about it,that ownership is really on
their manager and we're trainingthem how to do that.
So every quarter, every sixmonths at least, we're following
back up.
Did you take that Excel coursethat I had, offered, I had, told
(36:37):
you about did you do this, helpthem graduate through to
different levels so that whenthere's a different position,
they're primed and pumped,they're ready to go.
maybe it's some of the socialcues they need, professionalism
and some of those pieces thatthey haven't been taught about.
having.
The ability to provide them withsome of those things.
(36:57):
That development plan is moreimportant than your annual
reviews, which nobody takesseriously.
it's so important for someone toknow that the organization they
work with cares for them, and.
I think that, we can talk aboutdevelopment plans all day long.
If you're not thinking about it,you're really missing the mark.
(37:18):
And senior living is so vulvulnerable to a lack of team
members with workforce, that wereally have to plan and think
for development.
It's not extra and it's notsome, a department that
shouldn't be there and itshouldn't be given to hr.
as a, it's an HR functionbecause nobody knows that team
member better than their leader.
(37:39):
And so that development has tocome from leaders and that we
have to equip our leaders withthe tools to be able to develop.
Erin (37:46):
Yeah, I, I do think that there needs to be a, some type
of development plan, some typeof growth environment.
You know, we as an industry wantto pay more money.
To people and think that thatwill be sticky to use your
words, but it's not.
I have seen it firsthand wherewe were able to give a bunch of
people a huge increase and insix months they wanted more.
(38:11):
You know?
But really some of these reportsthat are out there about
retention is they want money,but they also want their leaders
to be better.
Yeah.
And I think that you can, thatpeople will stay in a community
where they belong.
That's sticky that, that theytrust as long as the leader is,
(38:34):
is growing.
'cause when the leader getsbetter, everyone, everyone
benefits from that, you know?
Yeah.
So it, it becomes like, to me,the growth of the leader is when
you grow the leader, thecommunity grows.
Kate (38:47):
I think about total re in total rewards.
I think about compensationactually last.
Yeah.
Here's what I think about it.
Compensation.
I've never been at top of marketin, in compensating.
My team never been.
Bottom right.
I'm always within, so I'mcompetitive.
That's where I stay because ifI'm putting all my time into, or
(39:08):
if I'm putting a lot of timeinto the other pieces, comp is
just your foundation.
It's all the other things thatare important and people know
that.
Yeah.
Erin (39:20):
I I, what I know now is that I would go to a company
that is going to value my growthas much as I do.
I did not know that five yearsago.
Mm-hmm.
But I know that now.
I think
Kate (39:31):
it's changed, right, though.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We weren't talking about thisstuff'cause there are plenty of
us.
And so now it's like, hmm, if Iwanna keep Aaron, if I wanna
keep Kate, I, I have to do more.
And it's not tied to comp.
Be competitive, but you don'thave to be, right.
The top.
And you, you referenced itearlier, that pressure.
Mm-hmm.
(39:51):
I've seen it happen, especiallyduring COVID.
We would raise compensation.
Some of it needed to be, so thatwas fine.
But there was constant pressure.
And like you said, every sixmonths there was comp pressure.
and you know what wasinteresting?
It was never mid-level leaders.
You know, up it was thefrontline.
And to me that was a totaldisplay of a disconnection
(40:14):
between the executive leadershipwho had all these beliefs and,
and, feelings about all thegreat things the team were doing
in the field.
But did they know that?
Erin (40:25):
Yeah.
So true.
All right.
Tell us, tell us where they canget the book.
It's, it's on Amazon and I'llput a link in the show notes.
Uh, but anywhere else they canget the book.
Kate (40:35):
It is on amazon.com.
and it's both, paperback andebook.
And right now we're working onthe audio.
I've been asked Kate, what'sgoing on with that?
It's being spoken right now, sowe'll get that out there soon,
but I so appreciate you havingme today.
Erin (40:50):
Yeah, I love this episode.
There's so much good stuff inthis episode.
If you're a leader, aperspective shift, if you're,
you know, a regional director ora hire, a perspective shift, to
me perspective is such a gift,for those who are in the moment
and in the muck sometimes.
So get this book.
creating stickiness.
(41:11):
Sticky is really important.
We want people to stay.
Thank you so much, Kate, forsharing, your wisdom with us.
It is.
Very valuable.
So to all my listeners, asalways, aspire for more for you
knowing with the foundation thatgrowth is the goal, influences
the outcome, and that you areenough.
(41:32):
Have a great day.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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