March 6, 2025 • 53 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin (00:00):
Welcome back to an episode that I am so excited to deliver
(00:03):
today because I have the empathyguy with me.
It's so funny.
I love nicknames and I.
His name.
His actual name is Joseph Cope,but he is the empathy guy.
He's a motivational keynotespeaker, an award-winning
educator, corporate empathyworkshop facilitator, and an
executive and personal empathycoach.
(00:24):
Man.
Welcome, Joseph.
How are you?
Did it today.
Joseph (00:28):
Aaron, it is an absolute pleasure to be here.
I cannot wait for aconversation.
Erin (00:34):
Yes, I, firmly believe in the correlation between
education and senior living.
And your content on LinkedIn hasjust been so enlightening for
me.
Different content pieces thatyou've written about students
that you've had, that reallyresonate with me.
And knowing about compassionfatigue that runs rampant inside
(00:56):
education as well as seniorliving.
My sister's a teacher, so I hearit all the time.
And knowing how powerful therelationship my kids' school is
for me as a parent and howpowerful the relationships, I
tried really hard to cultivatewith my, residents and their
families.
It's just a natural conversationto have, and especially since
(01:19):
you focus on empathy.
And I love how you talk aboutempathy as a skill.
This is a conversation thatwe're going into today.
Are you ready?
Joseph (01:29):
Oh, the correlations are popping right now.
I mean, even, I know you and Ihave had multiple conversations
already, but already my mind isgoing in all sorts of different
directions, so I can't wait tosee where this goes.
Erin (01:42):
Yes.
So you, from what I understand,you worked in the school and it
was a tough middle school.
Middle school folks.
Middle school.
We all, and my son is in middleschool, actually went on a field
trip, my first middle schoolfield trip, and I was like,
whoa, whoa.
So tell us about the middleschool experience, in a tough
(02:04):
school and what that taught you.
Bring up, you know, the specificstories about the kids and, and
where you're, I guess whereyou're, where you're at now,
which is really exciting, beingable to use your experience and,
and teach people.
It is amazing to me.
Joseph (02:24):
Well, part of the story of why I even got into
education, Erin, is because Igrew up with empathy as a
survival skill in my house.
Erin (02:34):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (02:35):
the home that I grew up in was loving, full of grace in
many places except for a few.
And in some of those places Ihad to learn how to put others
before me.
And because I had to learn howto put others before me as a
means of survival, it became theway that I lived my life.
(02:55):
And so when I got to the pointin my life where I had to choose
what feels fulfilling as a18-year-old, right?
Mm-hmm.
As an 18-year-old, we have tobe, we're told which way, what,
where is, what is your passionin life?
Erin (03:12):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (03:12):
I thought to myself, I'm, I'm not gonna be a
professional athlete, so whatelse can I do?
And I went into, intouniversity, into college knowing
that I wanted to be an educatorand I, I knew that I primarily
wanted to be an elementaryeducator because I was looking
for people who I could impact.
(03:34):
With as little resistance aspossible.
So I, I started teaching inelementary school.
Well, little did I know.
My very first week teachingfourth grade, I taught at a
Title one school and a Title oneschool is a school that has,
that has, over 50%, free andreduced lunches.
(03:57):
And I started the school year inJanuary.
I.
And I asked a student in myclass, a young man to do
something, and underneath hisbreath he says, F you.
And for the sake of ouraudience, I won't say it, but he
said it out loud enough for meto hear under his breath.
And this is the first week thatI'm here and I'm thinking to
(04:17):
myself, what have I landed in?
And this was in fourth grade.
Fourth grade.
Great.
This isn't even before, this isbefore middle school, Erin, like
this is fourth grade.
And now all of a sudden I havethis realization there is
something in me that is notready for this, right?
So I had to dig deep, I had tofigure out how to connect with
(04:38):
kids.
And there were days, there weredays and days and days where I
would go home thinking I'm notenough'cause these kids don't
love me.
I know what I would interpret asthese kids don't love me.
Was when they would roll theireyes or when they would turn
their backs or when they wouldgive me attitude.
(04:59):
Or you start to move to middleschool, right?
And then it becomes even more inyour face.
Things like, you know, kids justcompletely ignore you.
I.
Right.
Or you create this amazinglesson plan and kids look at you
and they're like, this isstupid.
And all of those things gettaken so personally and the
(05:19):
empathic nature of me started tojust feel like the weight of the
world was on my shoulders.
And eventually it got to a pointwhere I was at a middle school
now in a different state.
I was in a middle school.
We were on what's called theimprovement required list, and
(05:40):
we were on it for years beyondwhat you're supposed to be on
it.
So that means the state waslooking at us, they were
bringing in all sorts of statemandated collaborators.
They were bringing infacilitators, they were bringing
in all the people who couldbring the help.
(06:00):
And it felt like one thing ontop of another, mandate after
mandate, after requirement afterrequirement, and eventually, not
only is my empathic hearthurting because I'm carrying the
weight of all of these kids'emotions in my heart.
Now, on top of that, I've gotrequirements and mandates and
(06:22):
paperwork and boxes to check,and it got to be.
So much.
I mean, when you talk aboutcompassion fatigue for an
empath, it happens really quickand it happens hard, but we
don't know what else to do.
Mm-hmm.
And so in 2019, a man who is nowmy mentor.
(06:44):
Came to my school and gave thebest professional development I
have ever experienced.
And in that professionaldevelopment, he opened my eyes
to see that when you walk into aconversation, it's less about
your heart and more about yourskill.
Your heart has to play a partbecause you're human, but the
(07:08):
skill that you bring into aconversation.
That is where you can protectyour heart, and that was the
genesis of the empathy guy.
When you talk about coming intoany challenging conversation,
especially as a leader in amoment, your heart can only take
(07:30):
so much.
And when your heart feels likeit's getting stomped on when
your heart feels like it can'ttake anymore.
If we don't have a skill to fallback on, then all we're left
with is reactions from theheart, rather respon, rather
than responses from a place ofskill.
(07:51):
And I think that's what we'regonna get into today, Aaron, is
what can we do to move away fromleaving my bleeding heart on the
table?
And what can I do so that I canmove towards creating space for
another individual so that theycan choose change for themself,
that skill.
And that's the empathy thatwe're talking about.
Erin (08:13):
Well, first of all, you just described pretty much all
of us inside senior livingbecause I mean.
I speak for myself.
We've had keys thrown at people.
We've been called lots of names.
You know, we, we try toimplement change and nobody
wants it.
They dare you to say somethingto'em.
(08:33):
They turn around and walk out.
They quit right there.
I've had one person that I loveddearly, dearly, and.
Promoted from within, gave heran opportunity and, and really
poured a lot into her, andthings got so bad because she
didn't have the skill.
She just quit in the middle of ameeting and walked out.
Joseph (08:56):
Okay.
Yeah.
Erin (08:58):
Anyways, so it was a group meeting.
It wasn't even like aone-on-one, you know.
so yes, yes, yes, yes.
Let's talk about empathy as askill, which I think is really,
really important because thereis a lot of compassion fatigue.
I know that I suffered throughit.
I, I think that, I am a naturalempath.
I, again, grew up like you did,and I love how you said it
(09:19):
because sometimes I kind of likego into the story, but you're
like, I had a very loving andgraceful family, but there were
things that I had to, I had tochange or I had to think
differently or whatever.
And, and that is a hugeblessing, but it also helps us
(09:39):
if we're not careful.
It's like a.
Radar that we find that sameplace because that's what we're
used to.
That kind of chaos is our home.
And so that's where we find alot of teachers and a lot of
people inside senior living whoare looking for those hits of
being someone's hero, of, of, ofconstantly giving because that's
(10:01):
what we're used to.
But we run into lack of skill.
I'm gonna bring my whole heartinto this and.
But I don't know how to protectit.
I don't know how to putboundaries around it, because
boundaries seem really harsh andI don't know how to love people
enough to get them to change.
Joseph (10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Erin (10:25):
Because guess what I figured out?
Control is a lie.
Joseph (10:28):
Mm.
Preach.
Three.
Erin (10:31):
It's a lie, folks.
It's a lie.
All right, so teach us how tooperationalize our values, right
through skill.
Mm-hmm.
So give us.
Give us an example of how you,you know, you did that or are
doing that for yourself.
Joseph (10:48):
Yes.
Well, okay.
But once, when we think aboutthe process of what we're
talking about, about making it,okay.
Yes.
I, what I want leaders out thereto realize is that empathy
isn't, it's not just a feeling.
And it's not just me throwinggood feelings against the wall
and hoping something sticks
Erin (11:08):
right.
It's not.
Joseph (11:09):
That is sympathy.
Erin (11:12):
Yeah.
Joseph (11:13):
And there is a big difference between sympathy and
empathy.
Sympathy feeds on emotions.
Sympathy comes about and isstirred up by emotion, and it's
you feeling bad for someone andbecause you feel bad for
someone, you attempt to givethem something or do something
(11:35):
for them.
Whether that's actions or words.
Or even something nice to say,but that something nice to say
doesn't create space for them tochange.
It actually activatesvictimhood, or it actually
activates something within themthat creates a barrier between
them and change that sympathy.
Erin (11:58):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (11:58):
So the first thing for us to recognize when we're
activating empathy as a skillis, am I in a place.
To be able to create space foryou.
Mm-hmm.
Erin (12:10):
Because
Joseph (12:10):
if I'm not in a space to create space for you, it's gonna
come across as sympathy.
Erin (12:17):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (12:17):
So,
Erin (12:18):
or, or nothing.
Joseph (12:20):
Or nothing.
Erin (12:20):
Suck it up and get over it.
Joseph (12:22):
Oh yeah, because, okay, Aaron, you make such a good
point because when sympathy runsout, then you have to turn to
tough love.
Yes.
And tough love and sympathy bothprevent the brain from going
into the place of change.
Erin (12:37):
Yes, it's so true.
Joseph (12:39):
It's very true.
'cause you said it, Erin,control is a myth.
Yeah, but you know what?
So is coercion by passiveaggression.
That's a myth too.
Are there any parents out therewho we'd like to say that to?
Right?
Like it feels like, it feelslike, but it's, there's got to
be something in the middle.
(13:00):
Yes.
Because you and I have bothexperienced leaders in our lives
who created space for us, andthey may have not even known
that they were doing it.
Erin (13:09):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (13:10):
Like, let me tell you about, let me tell you about one
of the best principles that Iever worked for.
Erin (13:15):
Yes.
Joseph (13:16):
He didn't even know that he was doing this.
But I'm clearly an outside thebox thinker, like I am not a box
checker.
I mean, I know Aaron, there's apiece of you that's a
perfectionist that loveschecking off boxes, but I will
tell you, if I don't make theboxes, I will not check them
off.
I have a really hard timefollowing rules, and so one of
(13:36):
the hardest parts for me as ateacher was writing lesson plans
and then turning them in.
Erin (13:41):
I know I struggle with that too.
Joseph (13:43):
Because I knew what was gonna happen.
I just didn't have want to haveto explain it to you.
And so, when I got hired at amiddle, at the middle school,
they were so focused on growthwith the kids that at certain
point they said, listen, justmake sure that you turn
something in.
but I, I didn't have greatlesson plans to turn in.
(14:05):
And so eventually, I just kindof like gave the box checking
thing, but nothing really madesense.
So my assistant principal at thetime, he walked into my room, he
did a number of observations,and then he pulls me aside after
being in my room for about threemonths and he says, Joseph, I
see the incredible lessons andlearning that's taking place.
(14:29):
Your kids are engaged.
I mean, you could tell your kidsthat the sky is green and they
would believe you.
I just need to know what I'mwalking into.
When I come into your class,because I want to know ahead
where I can give you feedback.
So whatever your lesson planslook like, I don't care if
there's stream of consciousness,if they're bullet points.
(14:51):
Just make sure that I know whereyou are in the lesson plan and
what standard you're trying tohit that day because, and this
was the kicker, he said, I can'tgive you feedback on nothing.
Erin (15:02):
Hmm.
Joseph (15:03):
And that was where there was a little click in me, which
was, there has to be a frameworkfor growth to take place.
The challenge is, is theframework something that is
coerced into you, or is theframework something that you
believe in?
Erin (15:22):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (15:23):
And this is, I'm getting all of this, Aaron, as I'm
getting to this point, is I havea framework.
That I coach and that I speakabout, and that I bring up in
all of my workshops about how toturn empathy into a skill.
And so some of your listenersare gonna be like, wow, that's a
great framework.
And others of your listeners aregonna be like, well, that
(15:43):
doesn't make sense.
And if it doesn't make sense,don't worry about it, because
every framework comes from agreat idea in somebody's mind,
and the spirit behind it is whatmatters.
Yes.
The moment that you can makethat framework relative to you
and your life and yourexperience, you become curious
(16:04):
and curiosity is the key togrowth.
Erin (16:08):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (16:09):
So here's the framework.
Let me share the framework withyou.
It is what I like to call thecargo model.
And the reason that I call itthe cargo model was one is that
each of the letters stand forsomething.
Cargo is an opposition to yourbaggage.
No leader wants to be thought ofas the leader that's bringing
(16:29):
their baggage into anyconversation, right?
You've, you, you remember theconversations where you're
looking at your leader andthey're telling you something
in, in your head.
You're like, what is wrong withyou?
Right?
Like, or somebody must have hada bad morning this morning and I
don't know what it is, butyou're taking it out on me,
right?
Like, we gotta figure out a way.
That we can leave the baggage atthe door.
(16:53):
now, before I tell you theframework, Aaron, you're looking
at me.
I, I see your wheels turning.
Is there anything that you'reprocessing before I get into the
framework?
Erin (17:00):
No.
I mean, I like it.
I, I think I, I think frameworksare important.
I was like, you two, like, Imean, I know what's gonna
happen.
Why do I need to write it down?
Like I don't have time to writethis down.
Like there were so many.
So, yes, we're very much on thesame page there.
And I never even knew what aframework was until really, like
the last three years.
Like I never, and so frameworksare very, very important.
(17:23):
So I'm excited to, to listen tothis.
Joseph (17:26):
I love it.
And I, I'm with you, aframework.
A framework is just a place foryou to start.
That's all it is.
That's all it is.
so here's the framework.
The cargo framework stands forthe, the letters stand for this.
The C stands for connection.
The A stands for accountability.
Mm-hmm.
The R stands for resistance.
(17:46):
The G stands for gain, and the Ostands for Outlook.
So here's where they are.
Connection.
Just connect with somebody inthe most human way that you can,
if you are the leader, yourresponsibility because of your
position.
(18:06):
Is not to be somebody who eggson their emotion.
Really?
When people are, when adults areemotionally dysregulated, what
do they start acting like?
Erin (18:17):
Kids.
Joseph (18:18):
Kids and you, or the
Erin (18:20):
emotions of kids.
The unregulated emotions ofkids.
I do it.
Joseph (18:25):
We all do it.
I mean, listen, have you everbeen in an airport, Erin, and
your kids are actually actingreally well.
Okay.
And there's another parentthough, whose kids are not
acting well and that parentstarts to yell at their kid or
say stomach and they start toput it down.
(18:45):
And does that kid act better?
Usually not.
Right.
And you, in your head, are youthinking to yourself, to the,
out of that other parent?
'cause it never happens to youand I, but to that other parent,
we're thinking, wouldn't you,shouldn't you just stop acting
like that child?
I mean, realistically, you and Ihave had moments like that where
people are looking at us theexact same way.
But the point is this is when weare in our best self, we are.
(19:09):
We would never treat ourchildren like that.
It's just when we start actinglike children is, when we start
treating our children like that,one of the reasons is because
those mirroring neurons in thebrain mirror the more powerful
emotion, unless there'sawareness and skill.
So in a place where an adult isemotionally dysregulated, one of
(19:32):
the first things that leaderscan think to themself is this
adult is acting like a child.
What can I do to connect withthem as a human to bring them
back to their adult self?
And oftentimes that is your bodylanguage.
It's lowering your voice.
It's how you position yourself.
(19:52):
Sometimes it's creating spaceand time and saying, can we come
back to this later?
I.
But connection is key.
And if I just stopped atconnection, I would look at you
and say, that's all you had todo.
You'd think my framework wassoft, because accountability has
to happen, right?
Mm-hmm.
(20:12):
The A is for accountability.
What is the A?
Why?
What are we accountable to?
And this is where we're gonnastart going deep.
Accountability actually hasnothing to do with the words on
the wall, your mission statementor your vision statement, it has
nothing to do with your code ofethics.
When we're creating space forothers, accountability has
(20:33):
everything to do with holdingourselves accountable to our own
personal values.
Erin (20:40):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (20:41):
I have four personal values, Aaron.
They are courage, compassion.
Curiosity and healthy and bodyand mind.
And when I walk into challengingmoments, those are the four
words that are ringing throughmy ears.
Are you courageous enough to setboundaries right now for
(21:02):
yourself?
Are you willing to have thecompassion to recognize that
this person is a child?
And you would never yell at achild?
Are you curious enough to ask,what more could this be and
what's behind this, and let's doour best to keep a healthy mind
(21:22):
in place.
I'm thinking those thingsbecause those are my values
walking into it, andaccountability.
When you can be accountable toyour own values.
Then your personal integrity isintact, and the result of that
is whatever's on the wall, yourcode of ethics, your mission
statement, that gets lived outbecause it's coming from a
personal place.
Erin (21:43):
Mm-hmm.
That's good.
Joseph (21:45):
I see you processing.
Erin (21:46):
Yeah.
A lot of people don't have like,that's a powerful way.
To regulate yourself wheneveryou were confronted with a very
highly emotional response, whichis something inside of a
community we are around all thetime.
Like, and I'm sure in aclassroom of middle schoolers,
(22:07):
you that it's that way too.
But like I would often when Ifelt myself getting like, you
know, where it was coming up,like it was coming up, I would
be like.
I would say to myself, how doyou want to feel calm, cool, and
collected?
You know, you want to like, oneof mine is kindness, like it is
just to be kind.
and I can lose kindness reallyquick when I feel disrespected
(22:28):
or when that open wound, whenthey pour salt in that open
wound.
You know, like when, when ittriggered the everything that I
have done for you and this ishow you wanna treat me, like
when that trigger pulls mm-hmm.
All bets are off, folks, youbetter sit down when I listen,
you're talking to me.
You know what I mean?
(22:49):
It's like once we go past thatpoint.
You know, but it is, I, I kindof have, I don't have it as well
as you, but I know thatkindness, respect, and curiosity
is like, why are you acting thisway?
Like, what happened?
You know?
Mm-hmm.
I understand all that a littlebit more, whereas I didn't, when
(23:11):
I was inside of a community, theskill wasn't there, that the
skill is now here, and Irealized.
It's the trigger, like I wasunderstanding triggers when I
was still in the community and Icould feel it when mine was
getting squeezed, and I wouldhave to say to myself, this pain
that you're feeling is notcaused by them.
They didn't do this.
(23:32):
Calm yourself down.
But then sometimes, you know,it's the halt, right?
If I was too hungry or if I wastoo tired.
Mm-hmm.
I'm coming at you and you don'twant this version of me.
Joseph (23:46):
Okay.
No.
Which is a great transition intothe R, which is resistance.
Erin (23:53):
Yes.
Joseph (23:54):
And the resistance is nuanced.
Okay.
Because you just said it.
When you pour salt into my openwound.
Yeah.
And you don't respect my valuesthat I'm bringing to you.
And that little kid in you says,look at me trying to be my best
and this is what you're givingme.
Erin (24:15):
Yes.
Joseph (24:16):
You know what that is?
That right there is that tensionband pulling tighter and
tighter.
And the first question we haveto ask when it comes to
resistance is, what is theresistance in me?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, because they are alreadyin a place of survival, so
(24:37):
they're going to be givingresistance.
Erin (24:39):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (24:40):
I need to ask myself, what is the resistance in me?
Do you know what the mosteffective question I have found
to ask that the most effectivequestion I have found is, how
old do I feel right now?
Erin (24:55):
Hmm.
That is effective.
Joseph (24:57):
How old do I feel right now?
Yeah, because if that tension isthere, and you said it, Erin,
the salt is important to thewound.
At what age was that woundpresent?
And that is usually the age thatyou feel
Erin (25:14):
Yeah.
Joseph (25:15):
And so when you can begin to have compassion for
yourself at that age, whathappens is you start to step
into the resistance rather thanaway from it.
And when you step into theresistance, it's a lot easier to
create a space of compassion forthat other person who is acting
(25:36):
like a child, because twochildren who are going at it are
not gonna give in.
Yeah.
What you have to have issomebody who is their, in their
functional adult to be able tocreate space, get curious, and
lean in so that the tension canbe dropped on both sides.
(25:56):
That resistance piece to me isone of the most powerful parts
that has come about in the workthat I've done in empathy,
because to me, that resistancepiece there, it can either be a
middle finger.
Or it can be the mountaintop,the peak.
I'm telling you, my brain thinksin metaphors, but it can be the
(26:22):
point where you see yourself,the clearance, wouldn't you
agree?
Erin (26:27):
No, I agree.
Yes, a hundred percent.
Joseph (26:29):
But that middle finger turns around so quickly, right?
Like it turns into the how the fcan you think that way?
Why can't you see the fact thatI'm trying to help you out?
Look at me.
And then that little 5-year-old,8-year-old, 12-year-old,
15-year-old victim comes out.
Mm-hmm.
And that's not doing anybody anyhelp?
Erin (26:49):
No.
You know, I, I'm proud of prettymuch how I handled most things
inside of the community, butthere is.
One story where I literally, Imean, there have been times
where I have matched people'senergy and was able to recompose
myself and finish it in a veryprofessional way.
(27:12):
but there was one time where,you know, I called my boss and
said, I think I need to quitbecause.
I just, had it out, like wemoved from inside to outside and
I just treated somebody who I'veworked with for a very long time
as if she was treating me and wewere just pointing fingers and
(27:34):
talking about how we never doanything for each other.
And it was, it was something I'mreally ashamed of, but I look
back now and I'm like, it's.
I was just too tired.
I was tired and I was forcingsomething and I now know that I
pulled a lever, a trigger forher, and I knew nothing like she
(27:55):
was assuming so much, and Iabsolutely knew nothing about
what she was talking about.
Mm-hmm.
Nothing.
And so then I just spent allthis time doing this for her.
For them.
They've been talking about thisone topic forever, and I'm just
having them look at theschedule.
We're getting every otherweekend off.
(28:16):
Y'all are doing great.
Look at me.
I'm the hero.
I have just spent ungodlyamounts of time on this, and I
just want you to look at it.
Mm-hmm.
Nothing's final.
This is 45 days away, but I needyour approval and.
She did not approve.
Mm.
Erin'cause because of a birthdayparty that she never put in a
(28:39):
request off for because herweekend rotation was messed up.
Mm-hmm.
And I had no way of doing.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I, how dare I ask her towork on her son's birthday?
Mm.
I'm not.
I didn't, and I never would.
But boy, we blew up and I'mlike, can, can 10 years?
(29:00):
Can 10 years not not meananything to you?
You know what I mean?
Like, I've never asked anybodyto work on their child's
birthday.
Why would I ever do that?
You know what I mean?
So it was just like soirrational.
Joseph (29:13):
That's the word.
Irrational.
Yes.
Yes.
Children.
Children are irrational.
Erin (29:20):
Yeah.
Joseph (29:21):
Right.
Like.
There is, I just told you onegreat hack that I use to try to
help myself, which is how old doI feel?
Mm-hmm.
Another one that is a little bitmore adult is, what am I
missing?
Erin (29:38):
Yeah.
Clearly.
What am I missing?
And that's a very valuablequestion to ask when somebody is
like blowing up on your face.
Mm-hmm.
And you were taken so off guard.
Mm-hmm.
The question to ask is, what amI missing?
Mm-hmm.
And that would've been a verypowerful question in the moment,
Joseph (29:57):
right?
Yes.
Because if you were the leaderin that space, can you imagine
the dissipation of tension if injust for a moment of awareness
you had stepped back and said,hold on.
I feel like I'm missingsomething.
Erin (30:14):
Yes.
Joseph (30:15):
Am I, am I missing something here because I feel
like we're talking or we'retalking about the same topic,
but we're in different chaptersof the book?
Erin (30:27):
Yes.
That would've been the mostpowerful question to ask.
Had I been in, had I had theskill.
Right.
Just the awareness.
Yeah.
And, and probably another day,another time I would have been,
I would have been able to dothat, but at that moment I was
flying so high.
Mm-hmm.
(30:47):
So tired.
Mm-hmm.
So excited that to her suchdisrespect, irrational way that
she spoke to me, it just, Imean, like.
Hmm.
All sanity left.
All sanity left.
Joseph (31:06):
You just touched on a word that I wanna spend a minute
on.
Erin (31:10):
Yes.
Joseph (31:11):
You said disrespect.
Erin (31:14):
Yes.
Joseph (31:15):
Is disrespect, but let's flip it.
Is respect given or perceived?
Erin (31:23):
Oh.
Well, the most common thing isearned.
Right.
Joseph (31:28):
I purposely didn't use that.
Erin (31:30):
I know, I know, I know.
I like that.
I, I do think it's perceived,you know, you're right because,
and how people, she didn'tdisrespect me.
In fact, she really, reallyvalued me.
I know that and I valued her.
but in that moment it was,
Joseph (31:51):
we could say this, Erin, you felt disrespected.
Erin (31:55):
Yes, I felt disrespected.
Joseph (31:57):
And your feelings come from your perception?
Mm-hmm.
How do you think she felt?
Erin (32:03):
Oh, she felt completely disrespected.
Joseph (32:07):
So now we've got two people feeling disrespected.
Wait, that really sounds liketwo toddlers in a sandbox.
Erin (32:16):
Oh, and we were.
Yes.
Joseph (32:17):
You know what it else, it sounds like, it sounds like
two middle school girls standingat each other, standing up in
the cafeteria, jawing at eachother across the room like
Erin (32:27):
we were Yeah.
Joseph (32:28):
No, and, and it's where, and, and this whole point is as
a leader to be able to, one,have the awareness that there is
resistance.
And number two, to be able toask myself where the resistance
comes from.
You can see how powerful it's,
Erin (32:46):
yeah.
It was that moment that Irealized, and I knew this, but
it was, I mean, like I said, Iwill know how I want to feel at
all times, and I will neverallow myself to be that, out of
control at work again, ever.
And I have been through a lot ofperceived disrespect, right?
(33:09):
Mm-hmm.
Like, but this one took a wholenother level.
And it's funny because I dissectit back and she never reported
me.
Mm.
She very easily could havecalled corporate.
I mean, I did.
I immediately called and told onmyself, you know what I mean?
Because, but she didn't, Itreated her the same after that.
(33:30):
But she was always very, our,our relationship changed and I
think some of it was a mixtureof lots of things, but her
respect for me.
She didn't make the phone call.
Mm.
She could have very easily madethe phone call.
Somebody could have made thephone call.
Yeah.
You know, no one did.
Joseph (33:50):
Oh, boy.
You see what you're say, whatyou're sharing right now.
Is one of the keys to growth,which is awareness.
I mean, clearly this is a memorythat sticks in your mind as a
point where you went, I don'twant to be like that, so what
can I do to change?
Erin (34:10):
Yeah.
And when
Joseph (34:11):
we hit those moments in our life, that's where
frameworks actually help.
Erin (34:17):
Yes, absolutely.
Joseph (34:18):
Because I'm asking myself, what do I need to do?
And a framework.
When you are feeling like you'rein that space, a framework is
helpful and part of theframework that I'm sharing with
you, the first three, thinkabout who they have to do with.
Erin (34:33):
Mm-hmm.
Myself, our ourselves.
Yeah.
Joseph (34:36):
Right.
What can I do?
The G though is where we beginto create space for somebody
else.
Because when you are in a placewhere you feel like, okay.
I'm stepping out of that childside of me.
I'm giving my functional adult achance to shine.
(34:57):
Now is where the leader steps inand the G stands for gain, which
is what is the gain to therecipient.
Mm-hmm.
Or change to occur.
When I say change, I just meanlike fractional shift, right?
I'm not right, because in mymind, in in my mind, as a
(35:17):
leader, I have to be able to, ata certain point, empathy is all
about putting yourself insomebody else else's shoes and
being able to create the spacefor them to choose change.
For themself.
Erin (35:30):
For themself.
Joseph (35:30):
That's all we can do.
But until we've done the work onourself, we can't step into
somebody else's shoes withboundaries.
Erin (35:39):
Correct.
Joseph (35:40):
I can't feel these feelings for you, but I will
feel them alongside you, and Ihave to create that environment
within myself to be able to seethe gain to somebody else, and
oftentimes the gain to somebodyelse.
Is being seen, heard, or valued.
Erin (35:58):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (35:59):
To have their side of the story understood.
To be asked the question of,what am I missing?
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes there's somethingbeyond the scene of the scope of
understanding that even theperson doesn't know, but just
the space that you've createdgives them a chance to ask the
(36:20):
question.
What else could this be?
Erin (36:22):
Yeah.
Joseph (36:23):
The gain to them starts with the gain to you, but you've
done that with the connection,holding yourself accountable and
identifying the resistance.
Erin (36:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so true.
I, I, as a giver, like I gave somuch of myself, but at some
point I realized like, you'renot going to get that back.
You give because you wanna give.
And to expect other people togive.
Like you give, only set your, Imean, that's resentment.
I lived in resentment for a verylong time and I realized people
(36:57):
cannot be what they are not.
Mm-hmm.
And like that's a great gift togive yourselves.
I'm going to continue to do thisfor you because I love you
because this is what I want andI want you to eventually see the
pattern and do that foryourself.
But you learn constantly thatthey're always gonna revert back
to what they're most comfortablewith.
I mean, the same for me, chaos.
(37:18):
It was a home for me.
And when I heard, somebody on apodcast say that, I was like, oh
my God, I think chaos is a homefor me too.
Yeah.
That's a problem.
I don't wanna be chaotic anymoreinside.
Yeah.
You know, and I think theseopportunities help.
Learn like I learned from thatexperience.
(37:39):
Like no more, no more theexpectation of, of somebody, I
guess giving back what you aregiving, that's only a, that's
only the path to resentment.
Mm-hmm.
When you are a giver, yourealize.
This is just who I am and I donot expect anything back in
(38:00):
return.
Just like when I, when somebodytries to give me something to
wear, to borrow a Tupperwarecontainer, I say to them, I'm
not going to give this back toyou.
So you know, no resentments.
I'm not gonna give it backbecause that is not a strength
of mine.
Yeah.
You know, and so it's just likeone of those things like,
Joseph (38:20):
yeah,
Erin (38:21):
I am fully aware.
And it's, it's, we as leadersneed to understand the bleeding
heart leaders.
There's a lot of people, again,like we said inside senior
living that come to work herebecause we find it soothing to
be someone's hero.
Mm-hmm.
And you are, I mean.
(38:42):
Hmm.
124 people's heroes.
90 people's heroes, 64 people'sheroes.
It just depends on yourcommunity size, plus their
families, plus their associates,but just as much as a hero.
If you're not careful, you're amartyr because it's the other
side, you
Joseph (38:57):
know, the, the, the vulnerable side of us
Erin (39:03):
mm-hmm.
Joseph (39:03):
Feels so much reward when we're the hero.
Erin (39:08):
Oh.
Joseph (39:08):
But it's really easy for us to be the hero when we're
working with a population that'seven more vulnerable than we
are.
Erin (39:18):
Ooh, that is so true.
Joseph (39:22):
Think about how many times you poured into someone.
Only to have them look back atyou with a look of derision,
with a look of, I don't needyou.
And your superhero brain issaying, yes you do.
You need me.
(39:43):
But all that time, you see, thisis the, this is one of the big
differences.
I mentioned it earlier, peoplewho are born empaths, and I'll,
let me say this.
Everybody is born with thecapacity to show empathy as a
skill, but it's not untilusually we have a lot of
experiences where our empathicnature gets us in trouble, that
(40:04):
we start to either push empathyaway because that doesn't work.
Or we embrace empathy becauseit's what makes us feel close to
people, but now it's closewithout boundaries and our
empathic nature leads us to begiving sympathy, and we are the
ones who burn out eventually.
Erin (40:23):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (40:24):
What those of us who were born empaths and have been
raised as impasse and who are innow leadership positions can do,
is how can we turn thatkryptonite into a consistent
superpower?
I.
Erin (40:39):
Yeah,
Joseph (40:40):
you have to turn your empathic nature into a skill.
Erin (40:46):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (40:47):
Think about this, when you call nine one one, they
don't call first reactors.
What do they call
Erin (40:54):
first responders?
Joseph (40:56):
A reactor reacts out of emotion.
Erin (41:00):
So good
Joseph (41:01):
a responder comes from a place of skill.
So good.
If we are first reactors asempaths, we might spread
sympathy like confetti.
But don't nobody want yoursympathy,
Erin (41:15):
right?
Joseph (41:16):
Actually, I'm about to put out my first merch line and
my first T-shirt is gonna beempathy.
It matters more.
'cause don't, nobody wants yoursympathy.
Erin (41:27):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (41:29):
Because us bleeding hearts just put it out there and
then we're like, why don't youlove me?
Mm-hmm.
So how can we bring it in?
And I think this is, I thinkthis is a great place to close
up with the O, which is leadersoften are chosen as leaders
because they're really good atthe job that they did.
(41:50):
Not necessarily because they'regreat people.
People, right?
Or sometimes we're such greatpeople.
People.
Erin (41:58):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (41:59):
That we get put into leadership positions and we say,
and, and we say, well, you areable to work with two or three
people, or you are able to workwith your clients, or you are
able to work with your students,or you'll able to work with the
community.
Now we're gonna put you in aplace where you're not just in
the community, you're over theadults and the community.
Well.
As soon as you're in leadership,you start becoming outcome
(42:22):
driven because now you've gotdeadlines.
Now you've got paperwork, nowyou've got payroll.
Now you've got communicationsthat have to go out.
Now you've got all of theseresponsibilities that make the
outcome What you're driving tothe O in the cargo model does
not stand for outcome.
The O in the cargo model standsfor outlook.
(42:45):
As in, we have to focus onshifting the outlook in this
moment.
Just fractionally, can thisspace that we've created
together give you the chance toshift your outlook on this
situation?
Just fractionally, because Ijust have to give you a chance
(43:09):
to choose change for yourself.
Outlook.
Not outcome.
Erin (43:14):
Right?
Yeah.
It's about understanding.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we can sum it up, right?
Empathy is really aboutunderstanding.
What did I miss?
That real curiosity standpoint,you know, really for
understanding other people, butunderstanding ourselves because
like you said, the capacity toshow up for somebody else.
(43:36):
Is based on the capacity that wehave to show up for ourselves,
and that's where empaths andmost leaders get it wrong.
That while we don't wanna putboundaries in place is because
it feels harsh, you know?
Would you say, would you saythat Im most empaths are
(43:56):
enablers as well?
Joseph (43:58):
They don't know it.
Erin (44:00):
I know.
Joseph (44:01):
No, and that's the hardest part, right?
Like you do not want someone tosuffer in the short term.
Here's the difference.
Here's a, here's a huge help forme, Erin, when it came to
whether or not I'm an enabler,there's a difference between
hurt and harm.
Erin (44:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's really good.
That's a really, really goodthing.
It
Joseph (44:25):
might hurt in the moment, but will it harm them in
the long term if I do too muchnow?
Yeah.
We don't, empaths and bleedingheart leaders, we never want to
hurt anybody.
I mean, everybody's just aprecious bunny, but.
You have to give the, forgivethis over beaten used metaphor
(44:51):
you have to give the caterpillara chance to be in the cocoon.
Erin (44:55):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (44:56):
You and I both grew through the most challenging
experiences of our lives.
The point is that they were ourlives.
Erin (45:03):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (45:04):
Our responsibility as leaders is to create the space
for your life to be yours.
And for you to choose change foryourself.
And sometimes bleeding heartleaders, I shouldn't say
sometimes bleeding heart leadersand heart centered leaders.
This, one of the, the biggestpieces of awareness that we have
(45:25):
to have is we need to saveourselves from ourselves and
from our empathic nature.
And the moment that we can stepinto awareness and ask ourselves
one of these five questions.
What can I do to connect withthis person as a human?
Erin (45:40):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (45:41):
Am I holding myself accountable to my personal
values right now?
What's the resistance that'staking place and what's the gain
to that person?
And can I just shift the outlookfractionally?
I mean, think about how adultthat sounds, right.
That is your functional adult inaction.
(46:04):
But I also wanna make thispoint, I didn't make those as
statements.
I made them as questions.
Erin (46:11):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (46:12):
Those questions create the space for yourself to have
compassion for yourself.
Mm-hmm.
You were really close when yousaid it, but what I like to
always say is, our capacity tocreate space for others is
limited only by our capacity tocreate space for ourself.
Mm-hmm.
(46:32):
And it starts by askingquestions.
Empathy is about understanding,but empathy is going to start
when you ask the rightquestions.
Yeah.
Erin (46:42):
That's so good.
I can never remember thecharacter on enc Cantos name,
but you know who it is.
What's her name?
Joseph (46:48):
It's the older sister.
I can't remember who it iseither.
Erin (46:51):
Yes.
Okay.
But under, under the pressure.
Right?
I mean, we talked about this andI, I think empathic people
centered, purpose driven leaderswho want to be the hero.
We have the capacity to carry alot.
(47:12):
But just because we can doesn'tmean that we should.
And when we do, that's where weget to the point where we have
that fight in the sandbox,whether we're two, or whether
we're in middle school.
Mm-hmm.
You know, having, wanting toplease everybody, wanting to be
everything, to everybody wantingthe desire for people to see
(47:36):
you.
And I think another drivingthing is, or at least it was for
me, almost looking for the wrongpeople to see you.
Mm-hmm.
Wanting validation from thewrong people, when really the
validation really is that littlevoice inside of you.
Mm-hmm.
Like that's who you need thevalidation from, not somebody
else.
Mm-hmm.
(47:56):
And when you become aware ofthat, that is when life changes.
Mm.
You know, you work on thatlittle voice.
And that my friends is alifelong project.
Joseph (48:07):
That is the work.
Erin (48:09):
Yes.
Joseph (48:11):
I mean, you just said it.
it it, it took a, it took amidlife experience for me.
Erin (48:20):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Joseph (48:22):
I won't call it a crisis because to me it was a gift.
Erin (48:25):
Yeah.
Joseph (48:26):
But it took that experience for me to see the
cavernous hollowness within methat was trying so desperately
to seek fulfillment, to seekpurpose, to seek a sense of life
from helping others to thedetriment of me.
(48:50):
Mm-hmm.
If you are out there feelingthat sense of hollowness,
feeling, that sense of, I amdoing so much for the world and
why isn't it sticking?
There's something that you cando, and it starts with asking
five questions.
Erin (49:08):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So powerful.
Clearly you're my brother fromanother mother, but similar to
my mother.
Anyways, moving on.
Joseph (49:19):
That might be an off-camera conversation.
Might be over a coffee, orsomething stronger.
Erin (49:25):
That's so funny.
That's so funny.
Gosh, this was so good.
I, I really like.
It was so good for me.
The way you say it so succinctlyand have that framework is
really inspiring and motivating.
I, I hope that people who listento this, I mean, I can't, it's,
it's work.
(49:46):
Practice, any new skill ispractice, but that cargo
framework is important and theycan find out about that.
Do you have that on yourwebsite?
Or They can.
You can certainly go him and askhim to speak at your
conferences, which we'll try toget him some places because this
is, this is the work that weneed to hear inside our, inside
(50:08):
our profession right now as awhole, so it's nice.
You know, whenever the midlifethank you project was in your
life, you really get to see howyou get to use that for good.
And that is powerful.
That's powerful.
We all have that opportunity.
It's the way we look at it.
Is it a crisis or is it a is?
(50:29):
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
And there are, you know, two bigpoints in my life where I felt
like they were crisis.
Crises, but they're really bigthank yous.
Mm-hmm.
You know, which is fascinating.
Joseph (50:45):
Before I go, I can share with you, which is I, I heard a
definition of purpose about ayear and a half ago that changed
the way that I interact withhumanity.
Mm-hmm.
and this comes from Gab andBrian Boche, who run the Purpose
Company, and I'm foreverindebted to them.
(51:06):
The definition of purpose is thebest of what you've been given
to give to others.
Erin (51:12):
Mm-hmm.
Wisdom from the wounds, right?
Joseph (51:16):
But from, but what are the experiences in life that
it's gonna take for the best ofwho we are to emerge so that
others can receive it from us?
In a way that feels safe,secure, boundaried, but full of
impact.
(51:37):
Yeah.
And I feel like that midlifeexperience mm-hmm.
You never wish it on somebody,but you're so full of gratitude
for the experiences that you'regiven.
Because the best of who you arejust has the potential to
emerge.
Yeah.
And if I can give that messageto 1, 2, 5 people who end up
(51:59):
listening to this podcast, it'sbeen fulfilling.
Erin (52:03):
Well, it certainly has.
So thank you for giving us an,you know, 45 minutes to an hour
of your time today.
Great.
And if people wanna know moreabout you, how to work with you,
how to get you at conferences,they can go to empathy
guide.com.
Joseph (52:20):
That's the best way to get ahold of me.
If you want to reach out with meon LinkedIn, I'm very active on
LinkedIn.
and love the human connectionsthat we create on LinkedIn.
Empathy guide.com is my space.
and if you are interested inmore on the cargo model.
Send me a message on LinkedInand I will send you a PDF that
(52:44):
has a reminder of all of thosequestions just for you.
Erin (52:48):
Absolutely.
Gosh, thank you.
All right.
So if you listen to this and itwas impactful, share this
episode with many, many peoplebecause I feel like it's the
beginning of what I believecould be a very powerful impact
on our profession.
So, as always, for my listeners,aspire for more for you.
Welcome back to an episode that I am so excited to deliver
(00:03):
today because I have the empathyguy with me.
It's so funny.
I love nicknames and I.
His name.
His actual name is Joseph Cope,but he is the empathy guy.
He's a motivational keynotespeaker, an award-winning
educator, corporate empathyworkshop facilitator, and an
executive and personal empathycoach.
(00:24):
Man.
Welcome, Joseph.
How are you?
Did it today.
Joseph (00:28):
Aaron, it is an absolute pleasure to be here.
I cannot wait for aconversation.
Erin (00:34):
Yes, I, firmly believe in the correlation between
education and senior living.
And your content on LinkedIn hasjust been so enlightening for
me.
Different content pieces thatyou've written about students
that you've had, that reallyresonate with me.
And knowing about compassionfatigue that runs rampant inside
(00:56):
education as well as seniorliving.
My sister's a teacher, so I hearit all the time.
And knowing how powerful therelationship my kids' school is
for me as a parent and howpowerful the relationships, I
tried really hard to cultivatewith my, residents and their
families.
It's just a natural conversationto have, and especially since
(01:19):
you focus on empathy.
And I love how you talk aboutempathy as a skill.
This is a conversation thatwe're going into today.
Are you ready?
Joseph (01:29):
Oh, the correlations are popping right now.
I mean, even, I know you and Ihave had multiple conversations
already, but already my mind isgoing in all sorts of different
directions, so I can't wait tosee where this goes.
Erin (01:42):
Yes.
So you, from what I understand,you worked in the school and it
was a tough middle school.
Middle school folks.
Middle school.
We all, and my son is in middleschool, actually went on a field
trip, my first middle schoolfield trip, and I was like,
whoa, whoa.
So tell us about the middleschool experience, in a tough
(02:04):
school and what that taught you.
Bring up, you know, the specificstories about the kids and, and
where you're, I guess whereyou're, where you're at now,
which is really exciting, beingable to use your experience and,
and teach people.
It is amazing to me.
Joseph (02:24):
Well, part of the story of why I even got into
education, Erin, is because Igrew up with empathy as a
survival skill in my house.
Erin (02:34):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (02:35):
the home that I grew up in was loving, full of grace in
many places except for a few.
And in some of those places Ihad to learn how to put others
before me.
And because I had to learn howto put others before me as a
means of survival, it became theway that I lived my life.
(02:55):
And so when I got to the pointin my life where I had to choose
what feels fulfilling as a18-year-old, right?
Mm-hmm.
As an 18-year-old, we have tobe, we're told which way, what,
where is, what is your passionin life?
Erin (03:12):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (03:12):
I thought to myself, I'm, I'm not gonna be a
professional athlete, so whatelse can I do?
And I went into, intouniversity, into college knowing
that I wanted to be an educatorand I, I knew that I primarily
wanted to be an elementaryeducator because I was looking
for people who I could impact.
(03:34):
With as little resistance aspossible.
So I, I started teaching inelementary school.
Well, little did I know.
My very first week teachingfourth grade, I taught at a
Title one school and a Title oneschool is a school that has,
that has, over 50%, free andreduced lunches.
(03:57):
And I started the school year inJanuary.
I.
And I asked a student in myclass, a young man to do
something, and underneath hisbreath he says, F you.
And for the sake of ouraudience, I won't say it, but he
said it out loud enough for meto hear under his breath.
And this is the first week thatI'm here and I'm thinking to
(04:17):
myself, what have I landed in?
And this was in fourth grade.
Fourth grade.
Great.
This isn't even before, this isbefore middle school, Erin, like
this is fourth grade.
And now all of a sudden I havethis realization there is
something in me that is notready for this, right?
So I had to dig deep, I had tofigure out how to connect with
(04:38):
kids.
And there were days, there weredays and days and days where I
would go home thinking I'm notenough'cause these kids don't
love me.
I know what I would interpret asthese kids don't love me.
Was when they would roll theireyes or when they would turn
their backs or when they wouldgive me attitude.
(04:59):
Or you start to move to middleschool, right?
And then it becomes even more inyour face.
Things like, you know, kids justcompletely ignore you.
I.
Right.
Or you create this amazinglesson plan and kids look at you
and they're like, this isstupid.
And all of those things gettaken so personally and the
(05:19):
empathic nature of me started tojust feel like the weight of the
world was on my shoulders.
And eventually it got to a pointwhere I was at a middle school
now in a different state.
I was in a middle school.
We were on what's called theimprovement required list, and
(05:40):
we were on it for years beyondwhat you're supposed to be on
it.
So that means the state waslooking at us, they were
bringing in all sorts of statemandated collaborators.
They were bringing infacilitators, they were bringing
in all the people who couldbring the help.
(06:00):
And it felt like one thing ontop of another, mandate after
mandate, after requirement afterrequirement, and eventually, not
only is my empathic hearthurting because I'm carrying the
weight of all of these kids'emotions in my heart.
Now, on top of that, I've gotrequirements and mandates and
(06:22):
paperwork and boxes to check,and it got to be.
So much.
I mean, when you talk aboutcompassion fatigue for an
empath, it happens really quickand it happens hard, but we
don't know what else to do.
Mm-hmm.
And so in 2019, a man who is nowmy mentor.
(06:44):
Came to my school and gave thebest professional development I
have ever experienced.
And in that professionaldevelopment, he opened my eyes
to see that when you walk into aconversation, it's less about
your heart and more about yourskill.
Your heart has to play a partbecause you're human, but the
(07:08):
skill that you bring into aconversation.
That is where you can protectyour heart, and that was the
genesis of the empathy guy.
When you talk about coming intoany challenging conversation,
especially as a leader in amoment, your heart can only take
(07:30):
so much.
And when your heart feels likeit's getting stomped on when
your heart feels like it can'ttake anymore.
If we don't have a skill to fallback on, then all we're left
with is reactions from theheart, rather respon, rather
than responses from a place ofskill.
(07:51):
And I think that's what we'regonna get into today, Aaron, is
what can we do to move away fromleaving my bleeding heart on the
table?
And what can I do so that I canmove towards creating space for
another individual so that theycan choose change for themself,
that skill.
And that's the empathy thatwe're talking about.
Erin (08:13):
Well, first of all, you just described pretty much all
of us inside senior livingbecause I mean.
I speak for myself.
We've had keys thrown at people.
We've been called lots of names.
You know, we, we try toimplement change and nobody
wants it.
They dare you to say somethingto'em.
(08:33):
They turn around and walk out.
They quit right there.
I've had one person that I loveddearly, dearly, and.
Promoted from within, gave heran opportunity and, and really
poured a lot into her, andthings got so bad because she
didn't have the skill.
She just quit in the middle of ameeting and walked out.
Joseph (08:56):
Okay.
Yeah.
Erin (08:58):
Anyways, so it was a group meeting.
It wasn't even like aone-on-one, you know.
so yes, yes, yes, yes.
Let's talk about empathy as askill, which I think is really,
really important because thereis a lot of compassion fatigue.
I know that I suffered throughit.
I, I think that, I am a naturalempath.
I, again, grew up like you did,and I love how you said it
(09:19):
because sometimes I kind of likego into the story, but you're
like, I had a very loving andgraceful family, but there were
things that I had to, I had tochange or I had to think
differently or whatever.
And, and that is a hugeblessing, but it also helps us
(09:39):
if we're not careful.
It's like a.
Radar that we find that sameplace because that's what we're
used to.
That kind of chaos is our home.
And so that's where we find alot of teachers and a lot of
people inside senior living whoare looking for those hits of
being someone's hero, of, of, ofconstantly giving because that's
(10:01):
what we're used to.
But we run into lack of skill.
I'm gonna bring my whole heartinto this and.
But I don't know how to protectit.
I don't know how to putboundaries around it, because
boundaries seem really harsh andI don't know how to love people
enough to get them to change.
Joseph (10:24):
Mm-hmm.
Erin (10:25):
Because guess what I figured out?
Control is a lie.
Joseph (10:28):
Mm.
Preach.
Three.
Erin (10:31):
It's a lie, folks.
It's a lie.
All right, so teach us how tooperationalize our values, right
through skill.
Mm-hmm.
So give us.
Give us an example of how you,you know, you did that or are
doing that for yourself.
Joseph (10:48):
Yes.
Well, okay.
But once, when we think aboutthe process of what we're
talking about, about making it,okay.
Yes.
I, what I want leaders out thereto realize is that empathy
isn't, it's not just a feeling.
And it's not just me throwinggood feelings against the wall
and hoping something sticks
Erin (11:08):
right.
It's not.
Joseph (11:09):
That is sympathy.
Erin (11:12):
Yeah.
Joseph (11:13):
And there is a big difference between sympathy and
empathy.
Sympathy feeds on emotions.
Sympathy comes about and isstirred up by emotion, and it's
you feeling bad for someone andbecause you feel bad for
someone, you attempt to givethem something or do something
(11:35):
for them.
Whether that's actions or words.
Or even something nice to say,but that something nice to say
doesn't create space for them tochange.
It actually activatesvictimhood, or it actually
activates something within themthat creates a barrier between
them and change that sympathy.
Erin (11:58):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (11:58):
So the first thing for us to recognize when we're
activating empathy as a skillis, am I in a place.
To be able to create space foryou.
Mm-hmm.
Erin (12:10):
Because
Joseph (12:10):
if I'm not in a space to create space for you, it's gonna
come across as sympathy.
Erin (12:17):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (12:17):
So,
Erin (12:18):
or, or nothing.
Joseph (12:20):
Or nothing.
Erin (12:20):
Suck it up and get over it.
Joseph (12:22):
Oh yeah, because, okay, Aaron, you make such a good
point because when sympathy runsout, then you have to turn to
tough love.
Yes.
And tough love and sympathy bothprevent the brain from going
into the place of change.
Erin (12:37):
Yes, it's so true.
Joseph (12:39):
It's very true.
'cause you said it, Erin,control is a myth.
Yeah, but you know what?
So is coercion by passiveaggression.
That's a myth too.
Are there any parents out therewho we'd like to say that to?
Right?
Like it feels like, it feelslike, but it's, there's got to
be something in the middle.
(13:00):
Yes.
Because you and I have bothexperienced leaders in our lives
who created space for us, andthey may have not even known
that they were doing it.
Erin (13:09):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (13:10):
Like, let me tell you about, let me tell you about one
of the best principles that Iever worked for.
Erin (13:15):
Yes.
Joseph (13:16):
He didn't even know that he was doing this.
But I'm clearly an outside thebox thinker, like I am not a box
checker.
I mean, I know Aaron, there's apiece of you that's a
perfectionist that loveschecking off boxes, but I will
tell you, if I don't make theboxes, I will not check them
off.
I have a really hard timefollowing rules, and so one of
(13:36):
the hardest parts for me as ateacher was writing lesson plans
and then turning them in.
Erin (13:41):
I know I struggle with that too.
Joseph (13:43):
Because I knew what was gonna happen.
I just didn't have want to haveto explain it to you.
And so, when I got hired at amiddle, at the middle school,
they were so focused on growthwith the kids that at certain
point they said, listen, justmake sure that you turn
something in.
but I, I didn't have greatlesson plans to turn in.
(14:05):
And so eventually, I just kindof like gave the box checking
thing, but nothing really madesense.
So my assistant principal at thetime, he walked into my room, he
did a number of observations,and then he pulls me aside after
being in my room for about threemonths and he says, Joseph, I
see the incredible lessons andlearning that's taking place.
(14:29):
Your kids are engaged.
I mean, you could tell your kidsthat the sky is green and they
would believe you.
I just need to know what I'mwalking into.
When I come into your class,because I want to know ahead
where I can give you feedback.
So whatever your lesson planslook like, I don't care if
there's stream of consciousness,if they're bullet points.
(14:51):
Just make sure that I know whereyou are in the lesson plan and
what standard you're trying tohit that day because, and this
was the kicker, he said, I can'tgive you feedback on nothing.
Erin (15:02):
Hmm.
Joseph (15:03):
And that was where there was a little click in me, which
was, there has to be a frameworkfor growth to take place.
The challenge is, is theframework something that is
coerced into you, or is theframework something that you
believe in?
Erin (15:22):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (15:23):
And this is, I'm getting all of this, Aaron, as I'm
getting to this point, is I havea framework.
That I coach and that I speakabout, and that I bring up in
all of my workshops about how toturn empathy into a skill.
And so some of your listenersare gonna be like, wow, that's a
great framework.
And others of your listeners aregonna be like, well, that
(15:43):
doesn't make sense.
And if it doesn't make sense,don't worry about it, because
every framework comes from agreat idea in somebody's mind,
and the spirit behind it is whatmatters.
Yes.
The moment that you can makethat framework relative to you
and your life and yourexperience, you become curious
(16:04):
and curiosity is the key togrowth.
Erin (16:08):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (16:09):
So here's the framework.
Let me share the framework withyou.
It is what I like to call thecargo model.
And the reason that I call itthe cargo model was one is that
each of the letters stand forsomething.
Cargo is an opposition to yourbaggage.
No leader wants to be thought ofas the leader that's bringing
(16:29):
their baggage into anyconversation, right?
You've, you, you remember theconversations where you're
looking at your leader andthey're telling you something
in, in your head.
You're like, what is wrong withyou?
Right?
Like, or somebody must have hada bad morning this morning and I
don't know what it is, butyou're taking it out on me,
right?
Like, we gotta figure out a way.
That we can leave the baggage atthe door.
(16:53):
now, before I tell you theframework, Aaron, you're looking
at me.
I, I see your wheels turning.
Is there anything that you'reprocessing before I get into the
framework?
Erin (17:00):
No.
I mean, I like it.
I, I think I, I think frameworksare important.
I was like, you two, like, Imean, I know what's gonna
happen.
Why do I need to write it down?
Like I don't have time to writethis down.
Like there were so many.
So, yes, we're very much on thesame page there.
And I never even knew what aframework was until really, like
the last three years.
Like I never, and so frameworksare very, very important.
(17:23):
So I'm excited to, to listen tothis.
Joseph (17:26):
I love it.
And I, I'm with you, aframework.
A framework is just a place foryou to start.
That's all it is.
That's all it is.
so here's the framework.
The cargo framework stands forthe, the letters stand for this.
The C stands for connection.
The A stands for accountability.
Mm-hmm.
The R stands for resistance.
(17:46):
The G stands for gain, and the Ostands for Outlook.
So here's where they are.
Connection.
Just connect with somebody inthe most human way that you can,
if you are the leader, yourresponsibility because of your
position.
(18:06):
Is not to be somebody who eggson their emotion.
Really?
When people are, when adults areemotionally dysregulated, what
do they start acting like?
Erin (18:17):
Kids.
Joseph (18:18):
Kids and you, or the
Erin (18:20):
emotions of kids.
The unregulated emotions ofkids.
I do it.
Joseph (18:25):
We all do it.
I mean, listen, have you everbeen in an airport, Erin, and
your kids are actually actingreally well.
Okay.
And there's another parentthough, whose kids are not
acting well and that parentstarts to yell at their kid or
say stomach and they start toput it down.
(18:45):
And does that kid act better?
Usually not.
Right.
And you, in your head, are youthinking to yourself, to the,
out of that other parent?
'cause it never happens to youand I, but to that other parent,
we're thinking, wouldn't you,shouldn't you just stop acting
like that child?
I mean, realistically, you and Ihave had moments like that where
people are looking at us theexact same way.
But the point is this is when weare in our best self, we are.
(19:09):
We would never treat ourchildren like that.
It's just when we start actinglike children is, when we start
treating our children like that,one of the reasons is because
those mirroring neurons in thebrain mirror the more powerful
emotion, unless there'sawareness and skill.
So in a place where an adult isemotionally dysregulated, one of
(19:32):
the first things that leaderscan think to themself is this
adult is acting like a child.
What can I do to connect withthem as a human to bring them
back to their adult self?
And oftentimes that is your bodylanguage.
It's lowering your voice.
It's how you position yourself.
(19:52):
Sometimes it's creating spaceand time and saying, can we come
back to this later?
I.
But connection is key.
And if I just stopped atconnection, I would look at you
and say, that's all you had todo.
You'd think my framework wassoft, because accountability has
to happen, right?
Mm-hmm.
(20:12):
The A is for accountability.
What is the A?
Why?
What are we accountable to?
And this is where we're gonnastart going deep.
Accountability actually hasnothing to do with the words on
the wall, your mission statementor your vision statement, it has
nothing to do with your code ofethics.
When we're creating space forothers, accountability has
(20:33):
everything to do with holdingourselves accountable to our own
personal values.
Erin (20:40):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (20:41):
I have four personal values, Aaron.
They are courage, compassion.
Curiosity and healthy and bodyand mind.
And when I walk into challengingmoments, those are the four
words that are ringing throughmy ears.
Are you courageous enough to setboundaries right now for
(21:02):
yourself?
Are you willing to have thecompassion to recognize that
this person is a child?
And you would never yell at achild?
Are you curious enough to ask,what more could this be and
what's behind this, and let's doour best to keep a healthy mind
(21:22):
in place.
I'm thinking those thingsbecause those are my values
walking into it, andaccountability.
When you can be accountable toyour own values.
Then your personal integrity isintact, and the result of that
is whatever's on the wall, yourcode of ethics, your mission
statement, that gets lived outbecause it's coming from a
personal place.
Erin (21:43):
Mm-hmm.
That's good.
Joseph (21:45):
I see you processing.
Erin (21:46):
Yeah.
A lot of people don't have like,that's a powerful way.
To regulate yourself wheneveryou were confronted with a very
highly emotional response, whichis something inside of a
community we are around all thetime.
Like, and I'm sure in aclassroom of middle schoolers,
(22:07):
you that it's that way too.
But like I would often when Ifelt myself getting like, you
know, where it was coming up,like it was coming up, I would
be like.
I would say to myself, how doyou want to feel calm, cool, and
collected?
You know, you want to like, oneof mine is kindness, like it is
just to be kind.
and I can lose kindness reallyquick when I feel disrespected
(22:28):
or when that open wound, whenthey pour salt in that open
wound.
You know, like when, when ittriggered the everything that I
have done for you and this ishow you wanna treat me, like
when that trigger pulls mm-hmm.
All bets are off, folks, youbetter sit down when I listen,
you're talking to me.
You know what I mean?
(22:49):
It's like once we go past thatpoint.
You know, but it is, I, I kindof have, I don't have it as well
as you, but I know thatkindness, respect, and curiosity
is like, why are you acting thisway?
Like, what happened?
You know?
Mm-hmm.
I understand all that a littlebit more, whereas I didn't, when
(23:11):
I was inside of a community, theskill wasn't there, that the
skill is now here, and Irealized.
It's the trigger, like I wasunderstanding triggers when I
was still in the community and Icould feel it when mine was
getting squeezed, and I wouldhave to say to myself, this pain
that you're feeling is notcaused by them.
They didn't do this.
(23:32):
Calm yourself down.
But then sometimes, you know,it's the halt, right?
If I was too hungry or if I wastoo tired.
Mm-hmm.
I'm coming at you and you don'twant this version of me.
Joseph (23:46):
Okay.
No.
Which is a great transition intothe R, which is resistance.
Erin (23:53):
Yes.
Joseph (23:54):
And the resistance is nuanced.
Okay.
Because you just said it.
When you pour salt into my openwound.
Yeah.
And you don't respect my valuesthat I'm bringing to you.
And that little kid in you says,look at me trying to be my best
and this is what you're givingme.
Erin (24:15):
Yes.
Joseph (24:16):
You know what that is?
That right there is that tensionband pulling tighter and
tighter.
And the first question we haveto ask when it comes to
resistance is, what is theresistance in me?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, because they are alreadyin a place of survival, so
(24:37):
they're going to be givingresistance.
Erin (24:39):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (24:40):
I need to ask myself, what is the resistance in me?
Do you know what the mosteffective question I have found
to ask that the most effectivequestion I have found is, how
old do I feel right now?
Erin (24:55):
Hmm.
That is effective.
Joseph (24:57):
How old do I feel right now?
Yeah, because if that tension isthere, and you said it, Erin,
the salt is important to thewound.
At what age was that woundpresent?
And that is usually the age thatyou feel
Erin (25:14):
Yeah.
Joseph (25:15):
And so when you can begin to have compassion for
yourself at that age, whathappens is you start to step
into the resistance rather thanaway from it.
And when you step into theresistance, it's a lot easier to
create a space of compassion forthat other person who is acting
(25:36):
like a child, because twochildren who are going at it are
not gonna give in.
Yeah.
What you have to have issomebody who is their, in their
functional adult to be able tocreate space, get curious, and
lean in so that the tension canbe dropped on both sides.
(25:56):
That resistance piece to me isone of the most powerful parts
that has come about in the workthat I've done in empathy,
because to me, that resistancepiece there, it can either be a
middle finger.
Or it can be the mountaintop,the peak.
I'm telling you, my brain thinksin metaphors, but it can be the
(26:22):
point where you see yourself,the clearance, wouldn't you
agree?
Erin (26:27):
No, I agree.
Yes, a hundred percent.
Joseph (26:29):
But that middle finger turns around so quickly, right?
Like it turns into the how the fcan you think that way?
Why can't you see the fact thatI'm trying to help you out?
Look at me.
And then that little 5-year-old,8-year-old, 12-year-old,
15-year-old victim comes out.
Mm-hmm.
And that's not doing anybody anyhelp?
Erin (26:49):
No.
You know, I, I'm proud of prettymuch how I handled most things
inside of the community, butthere is.
One story where I literally, Imean, there have been times
where I have matched people'senergy and was able to recompose
myself and finish it in a veryprofessional way.
(27:12):
but there was one time where,you know, I called my boss and
said, I think I need to quitbecause.
I just, had it out, like wemoved from inside to outside and
I just treated somebody who I'veworked with for a very long time
as if she was treating me and wewere just pointing fingers and
(27:34):
talking about how we never doanything for each other.
And it was, it was something I'mreally ashamed of, but I look
back now and I'm like, it's.
I was just too tired.
I was tired and I was forcingsomething and I now know that I
pulled a lever, a trigger forher, and I knew nothing like she
(27:55):
was assuming so much, and Iabsolutely knew nothing about
what she was talking about.
Mm-hmm.
Nothing.
And so then I just spent allthis time doing this for her.
For them.
They've been talking about thisone topic forever, and I'm just
having them look at theschedule.
We're getting every otherweekend off.
(28:16):
Y'all are doing great.
Look at me.
I'm the hero.
I have just spent ungodlyamounts of time on this, and I
just want you to look at it.
Mm-hmm.
Nothing's final.
This is 45 days away, but I needyour approval and.
She did not approve.
Mm.
Erin'cause because of a birthdayparty that she never put in a
(28:39):
request off for because herweekend rotation was messed up.
Mm-hmm.
And I had no way of doing.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I, how dare I ask her towork on her son's birthday?
Mm.
I'm not.
I didn't, and I never would.
But boy, we blew up and I'mlike, can, can 10 years?
(29:00):
Can 10 years not not meananything to you?
You know what I mean?
Like, I've never asked anybodyto work on their child's
birthday.
Why would I ever do that?
You know what I mean?
So it was just like soirrational.
Joseph (29:13):
That's the word.
Irrational.
Yes.
Yes.
Children.
Children are irrational.
Erin (29:20):
Yeah.
Joseph (29:21):
Right.
Like.
There is, I just told you onegreat hack that I use to try to
help myself, which is how old doI feel?
Mm-hmm.
Another one that is a little bitmore adult is, what am I
missing?
Erin (29:38):
Yeah.
Clearly.
What am I missing?
And that's a very valuablequestion to ask when somebody is
like blowing up on your face.
Mm-hmm.
And you were taken so off guard.
Mm-hmm.
The question to ask is, what amI missing?
Mm-hmm.
And that would've been a verypowerful question in the moment,
Joseph (29:57):
right?
Yes.
Because if you were the leaderin that space, can you imagine
the dissipation of tension if injust for a moment of awareness
you had stepped back and said,hold on.
I feel like I'm missingsomething.
Erin (30:14):
Yes.
Joseph (30:15):
Am I, am I missing something here because I feel
like we're talking or we'retalking about the same topic,
but we're in different chaptersof the book?
Erin (30:27):
Yes.
That would've been the mostpowerful question to ask.
Had I been in, had I had theskill.
Right.
Just the awareness.
Yeah.
And, and probably another day,another time I would have been,
I would have been able to dothat, but at that moment I was
flying so high.
Mm-hmm.
(30:47):
So tired.
Mm-hmm.
So excited that to her suchdisrespect, irrational way that
she spoke to me, it just, Imean, like.
Hmm.
All sanity left.
All sanity left.
Joseph (31:06):
You just touched on a word that I wanna spend a minute
on.
Erin (31:10):
Yes.
Joseph (31:11):
You said disrespect.
Erin (31:14):
Yes.
Joseph (31:15):
Is disrespect, but let's flip it.
Is respect given or perceived?
Erin (31:23):
Oh.
Well, the most common thing isearned.
Right.
Joseph (31:28):
I purposely didn't use that.
Erin (31:30):
I know, I know, I know.
I like that.
I, I do think it's perceived,you know, you're right because,
and how people, she didn'tdisrespect me.
In fact, she really, reallyvalued me.
I know that and I valued her.
but in that moment it was,
Joseph (31:51):
we could say this, Erin, you felt disrespected.
Erin (31:55):
Yes, I felt disrespected.
Joseph (31:57):
And your feelings come from your perception?
Mm-hmm.
How do you think she felt?
Erin (32:03):
Oh, she felt completely disrespected.
Joseph (32:07):
So now we've got two people feeling disrespected.
Wait, that really sounds liketwo toddlers in a sandbox.
Erin (32:16):
Oh, and we were.
Yes.
Joseph (32:17):
You know what it else, it sounds like, it sounds like
two middle school girls standingat each other, standing up in
the cafeteria, jawing at eachother across the room like
Erin (32:27):
we were Yeah.
Joseph (32:28):
No, and, and it's where, and, and this whole point is as
a leader to be able to, one,have the awareness that there is
resistance.
And number two, to be able toask myself where the resistance
comes from.
You can see how powerful it's,
Erin (32:46):
yeah.
It was that moment that Irealized, and I knew this, but
it was, I mean, like I said, Iwill know how I want to feel at
all times, and I will neverallow myself to be that, out of
control at work again, ever.
And I have been through a lot ofperceived disrespect, right?
(33:09):
Mm-hmm.
Like, but this one took a wholenother level.
And it's funny because I dissectit back and she never reported
me.
Mm.
She very easily could havecalled corporate.
I mean, I did.
I immediately called and told onmyself, you know what I mean?
Because, but she didn't, Itreated her the same after that.
(33:30):
But she was always very, our,our relationship changed and I
think some of it was a mixtureof lots of things, but her
respect for me.
She didn't make the phone call.
Mm.
She could have very easily madethe phone call.
Somebody could have made thephone call.
Yeah.
You know, no one did.
Joseph (33:50):
Oh, boy.
You see what you're say, whatyou're sharing right now.
Is one of the keys to growth,which is awareness.
I mean, clearly this is a memorythat sticks in your mind as a
point where you went, I don'twant to be like that, so what
can I do to change?
Erin (34:10):
Yeah.
And when
Joseph (34:11):
we hit those moments in our life, that's where
frameworks actually help.
Erin (34:17):
Yes, absolutely.
Joseph (34:18):
Because I'm asking myself, what do I need to do?
And a framework.
When you are feeling like you'rein that space, a framework is
helpful and part of theframework that I'm sharing with
you, the first three, thinkabout who they have to do with.
Erin (34:33):
Mm-hmm.
Myself, our ourselves.
Yeah.
Joseph (34:36):
Right.
What can I do?
The G though is where we beginto create space for somebody
else.
Because when you are in a placewhere you feel like, okay.
I'm stepping out of that childside of me.
I'm giving my functional adult achance to shine.
(34:57):
Now is where the leader steps inand the G stands for gain, which
is what is the gain to therecipient.
Mm-hmm.
Or change to occur.
When I say change, I just meanlike fractional shift, right?
I'm not right, because in mymind, in in my mind, as a
(35:17):
leader, I have to be able to, ata certain point, empathy is all
about putting yourself insomebody else else's shoes and
being able to create the spacefor them to choose change.
For themself.
Erin (35:30):
For themself.
Joseph (35:30):
That's all we can do.
But until we've done the work onourself, we can't step into
somebody else's shoes withboundaries.
Erin (35:39):
Correct.
Joseph (35:40):
I can't feel these feelings for you, but I will
feel them alongside you, and Ihave to create that environment
within myself to be able to seethe gain to somebody else, and
oftentimes the gain to somebodyelse.
Is being seen, heard, or valued.
Erin (35:58):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (35:59):
To have their side of the story understood.
To be asked the question of,what am I missing?
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes there's somethingbeyond the scene of the scope of
understanding that even theperson doesn't know, but just
the space that you've createdgives them a chance to ask the
(36:20):
question.
What else could this be?
Erin (36:22):
Yeah.
Joseph (36:23):
The gain to them starts with the gain to you, but you've
done that with the connection,holding yourself accountable and
identifying the resistance.
Erin (36:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so true.
I, I, as a giver, like I gave somuch of myself, but at some
point I realized like, you'renot going to get that back.
You give because you wanna give.
And to expect other people togive.
Like you give, only set your, Imean, that's resentment.
I lived in resentment for a verylong time and I realized people
(36:57):
cannot be what they are not.
Mm-hmm.
And like that's a great gift togive yourselves.
I'm going to continue to do thisfor you because I love you
because this is what I want andI want you to eventually see the
pattern and do that foryourself.
But you learn constantly thatthey're always gonna revert back
to what they're most comfortablewith.
I mean, the same for me, chaos.
(37:18):
It was a home for me.
And when I heard, somebody on apodcast say that, I was like, oh
my God, I think chaos is a homefor me too.
Yeah.
That's a problem.
I don't wanna be chaotic anymoreinside.
Yeah.
You know, and I think theseopportunities help.
Learn like I learned from thatexperience.
(37:39):
Like no more, no more theexpectation of, of somebody, I
guess giving back what you aregiving, that's only a, that's
only the path to resentment.
Mm-hmm.
When you are a giver, yourealize.
This is just who I am and I donot expect anything back in
(38:00):
return.
Just like when I, when somebodytries to give me something to
wear, to borrow a Tupperwarecontainer, I say to them, I'm
not going to give this back toyou.
So you know, no resentments.
I'm not gonna give it backbecause that is not a strength
of mine.
Yeah.
You know, and so it's just likeone of those things like,
Joseph (38:20):
yeah,
Erin (38:21):
I am fully aware.
And it's, it's, we as leadersneed to understand the bleeding
heart leaders.
There's a lot of people, again,like we said inside senior
living that come to work herebecause we find it soothing to
be someone's hero.
Mm-hmm.
And you are, I mean.
(38:42):
Hmm.
124 people's heroes.
90 people's heroes, 64 people'sheroes.
It just depends on yourcommunity size, plus their
families, plus their associates,but just as much as a hero.
If you're not careful, you're amartyr because it's the other
side, you
Joseph (38:57):
know, the, the, the vulnerable side of us
Erin (39:03):
mm-hmm.
Joseph (39:03):
Feels so much reward when we're the hero.
Erin (39:08):
Oh.
Joseph (39:08):
But it's really easy for us to be the hero when we're
working with a population that'seven more vulnerable than we
are.
Erin (39:18):
Ooh, that is so true.
Joseph (39:22):
Think about how many times you poured into someone.
Only to have them look back atyou with a look of derision,
with a look of, I don't needyou.
And your superhero brain issaying, yes you do.
You need me.
(39:43):
But all that time, you see, thisis the, this is one of the big
differences.
I mentioned it earlier, peoplewho are born empaths, and I'll,
let me say this.
Everybody is born with thecapacity to show empathy as a
skill, but it's not untilusually we have a lot of
experiences where our empathicnature gets us in trouble, that
(40:04):
we start to either push empathyaway because that doesn't work.
Or we embrace empathy becauseit's what makes us feel close to
people, but now it's closewithout boundaries and our
empathic nature leads us to begiving sympathy, and we are the
ones who burn out eventually.
Erin (40:23):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (40:24):
What those of us who were born empaths and have been
raised as impasse and who are innow leadership positions can do,
is how can we turn thatkryptonite into a consistent
superpower?
I.
Erin (40:39):
Yeah,
Joseph (40:40):
you have to turn your empathic nature into a skill.
Erin (40:46):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (40:47):
Think about this, when you call nine one one, they
don't call first reactors.
What do they call
Erin (40:54):
first responders?
Joseph (40:56):
A reactor reacts out of emotion.
Erin (41:00):
So good
Joseph (41:01):
a responder comes from a place of skill.
So good.
If we are first reactors asempaths, we might spread
sympathy like confetti.
But don't nobody want yoursympathy,
Erin (41:15):
right?
Joseph (41:16):
Actually, I'm about to put out my first merch line and
my first T-shirt is gonna beempathy.
It matters more.
'cause don't, nobody wants yoursympathy.
Erin (41:27):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (41:29):
Because us bleeding hearts just put it out there and
then we're like, why don't youlove me?
Mm-hmm.
So how can we bring it in?
And I think this is, I thinkthis is a great place to close
up with the O, which is leadersoften are chosen as leaders
because they're really good atthe job that they did.
(41:50):
Not necessarily because they'regreat people.
People, right?
Or sometimes we're such greatpeople.
People.
Erin (41:58):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (41:59):
That we get put into leadership positions and we say,
and, and we say, well, you areable to work with two or three
people, or you are able to workwith your clients, or you are
able to work with your students,or you'll able to work with the
community.
Now we're gonna put you in aplace where you're not just in
the community, you're over theadults and the community.
Well.
As soon as you're in leadership,you start becoming outcome
(42:22):
driven because now you've gotdeadlines.
Now you've got paperwork, nowyou've got payroll.
Now you've got communicationsthat have to go out.
Now you've got all of theseresponsibilities that make the
outcome What you're driving tothe O in the cargo model does
not stand for outcome.
The O in the cargo model standsfor outlook.
(42:45):
As in, we have to focus onshifting the outlook in this
moment.
Just fractionally, can thisspace that we've created
together give you the chance toshift your outlook on this
situation?
Just fractionally, because Ijust have to give you a chance
(43:09):
to choose change for yourself.
Outlook.
Not outcome.
Erin (43:14):
Right?
Yeah.
It's about understanding.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, we can sum it up, right?
Empathy is really aboutunderstanding.
What did I miss?
That real curiosity standpoint,you know, really for
understanding other people, butunderstanding ourselves because
like you said, the capacity toshow up for somebody else.
(43:36):
Is based on the capacity that wehave to show up for ourselves,
and that's where empaths andmost leaders get it wrong.
That while we don't wanna putboundaries in place is because
it feels harsh, you know?
Would you say, would you saythat Im most empaths are
(43:56):
enablers as well?
Joseph (43:58):
They don't know it.
Erin (44:00):
I know.
Joseph (44:01):
No, and that's the hardest part, right?
Like you do not want someone tosuffer in the short term.
Here's the difference.
Here's a, here's a huge help forme, Erin, when it came to
whether or not I'm an enabler,there's a difference between
hurt and harm.
Erin (44:20):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's really good.
That's a really, really goodthing.
It
Joseph (44:25):
might hurt in the moment, but will it harm them in
the long term if I do too muchnow?
Yeah.
We don't, empaths and bleedingheart leaders, we never want to
hurt anybody.
I mean, everybody's just aprecious bunny, but.
You have to give the, forgivethis over beaten used metaphor
(44:51):
you have to give the caterpillara chance to be in the cocoon.
Erin (44:55):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (44:56):
You and I both grew through the most challenging
experiences of our lives.
The point is that they were ourlives.
Erin (45:03):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (45:04):
Our responsibility as leaders is to create the space
for your life to be yours.
And for you to choose change foryourself.
And sometimes bleeding heartleaders, I shouldn't say
sometimes bleeding heart leadersand heart centered leaders.
This, one of the, the biggestpieces of awareness that we have
(45:25):
to have is we need to saveourselves from ourselves and
from our empathic nature.
And the moment that we can stepinto awareness and ask ourselves
one of these five questions.
What can I do to connect withthis person as a human?
Erin (45:40):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (45:41):
Am I holding myself accountable to my personal
values right now?
What's the resistance that'staking place and what's the gain
to that person?
And can I just shift the outlookfractionally?
I mean, think about how adultthat sounds, right.
That is your functional adult inaction.
(46:04):
But I also wanna make thispoint, I didn't make those as
statements.
I made them as questions.
Erin (46:11):
Mm-hmm.
Joseph (46:12):
Those questions create the space for yourself to have
compassion for yourself.
Mm-hmm.
You were really close when yousaid it, but what I like to
always say is, our capacity tocreate space for others is
limited only by our capacity tocreate space for ourself.
Mm-hmm.
(46:32):
And it starts by askingquestions.
Empathy is about understanding,but empathy is going to start
when you ask the rightquestions.
Yeah.
Erin (46:42):
That's so good.
I can never remember thecharacter on enc Cantos name,
but you know who it is.
What's her name?
Joseph (46:48):
It's the older sister.
I can't remember who it iseither.
Erin (46:51):
Yes.
Okay.
But under, under the pressure.
Right?
I mean, we talked about this andI, I think empathic people
centered, purpose driven leaderswho want to be the hero.
We have the capacity to carry alot.
(47:12):
But just because we can doesn'tmean that we should.
And when we do, that's where weget to the point where we have
that fight in the sandbox,whether we're two, or whether
we're in middle school.
Mm-hmm.
You know, having, wanting toplease everybody, wanting to be
everything, to everybody wantingthe desire for people to see
(47:36):
you.
And I think another drivingthing is, or at least it was for
me, almost looking for the wrongpeople to see you.
Mm-hmm.
Wanting validation from thewrong people, when really the
validation really is that littlevoice inside of you.
Mm-hmm.
Like that's who you need thevalidation from, not somebody
else.
Mm-hmm.
(47:56):
And when you become aware ofthat, that is when life changes.
Mm.
You know, you work on thatlittle voice.
And that my friends is alifelong project.
Joseph (48:07):
That is the work.
Erin (48:09):
Yes.
Joseph (48:11):
I mean, you just said it.
it it, it took a, it took amidlife experience for me.
Erin (48:20):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Joseph (48:22):
I won't call it a crisis because to me it was a gift.
Erin (48:25):
Yeah.
Joseph (48:26):
But it took that experience for me to see the
cavernous hollowness within methat was trying so desperately
to seek fulfillment, to seekpurpose, to seek a sense of life
from helping others to thedetriment of me.
(48:50):
Mm-hmm.
If you are out there feelingthat sense of hollowness,
feeling, that sense of, I amdoing so much for the world and
why isn't it sticking?
There's something that you cando, and it starts with asking
five questions.
Erin (49:08):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So powerful.
Clearly you're my brother fromanother mother, but similar to
my mother.
Anyways, moving on.
Joseph (49:19):
That might be an off-camera conversation.
Might be over a coffee, orsomething stronger.
Erin (49:25):
That's so funny.
That's so funny.
Gosh, this was so good.
I, I really like.
It was so good for me.
The way you say it so succinctlyand have that framework is
really inspiring and motivating.
I, I hope that people who listento this, I mean, I can't, it's,
it's work.
(49:46):
Practice, any new skill ispractice, but that cargo
framework is important and theycan find out about that.
Do you have that on yourwebsite?
Or They can.
You can certainly go him and askhim to speak at your
conferences, which we'll try toget him some places because this
is, this is the work that weneed to hear inside our, inside
(50:08):
our profession right now as awhole, so it's nice.
You know, whenever the midlifethank you project was in your
life, you really get to see howyou get to use that for good.
And that is powerful.
That's powerful.
We all have that opportunity.
It's the way we look at it.
Is it a crisis or is it a is?
(50:29):
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
And there are, you know, two bigpoints in my life where I felt
like they were crisis.
Crises, but they're really bigthank yous.
Mm-hmm.
You know, which is fascinating.
Joseph (50:45):
Before I go, I can share with you, which is I, I heard a
definition of purpose about ayear and a half ago that changed
the way that I interact withhumanity.
Mm-hmm.
and this comes from Gab andBrian Boche, who run the Purpose
Company, and I'm foreverindebted to them.
(51:06):
The definition of purpose is thebest of what you've been given
to give to others.
Erin (51:12):
Mm-hmm.
Wisdom from the wounds, right?
Joseph (51:16):
But from, but what are the experiences in life that
it's gonna take for the best ofwho we are to emerge so that
others can receive it from us?
In a way that feels safe,secure, boundaried, but full of
impact.
(51:37):
Yeah.
And I feel like that midlifeexperience mm-hmm.
You never wish it on somebody,but you're so full of gratitude
for the experiences that you'regiven.
Because the best of who you arejust has the potential to
emerge.
Yeah.
And if I can give that messageto 1, 2, 5 people who end up
(51:59):
listening to this podcast, it'sbeen fulfilling.
Erin (52:03):
Well, it certainly has.
So thank you for giving us an,you know, 45 minutes to an hour
of your time today.
Great.
And if people wanna know moreabout you, how to work with you,
how to get you at conferences,they can go to empathy
guide.com.
Joseph (52:20):
That's the best way to get ahold of me.
If you want to reach out with meon LinkedIn, I'm very active on
LinkedIn.
and love the human connectionsthat we create on LinkedIn.
Empathy guide.com is my space.
and if you are interested inmore on the cargo model.
Send me a message on LinkedInand I will send you a PDF that
(52:44):
has a reminder of all of thosequestions just for you.
Erin (52:48):
Absolutely.
Gosh, thank you.
All right.
So if you listen to this and itwas impactful, share this
episode with many, many peoplebecause I feel like it's the
beginning of what I believecould be a very powerful impact
on our profession.
So, as always, for my listeners,aspire for more for you.
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