January 30, 2025 • 54 mins
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We Never Had Control but We Can Create Influence
In the first guest episode of 2025, Erin welcomes Chris Heinz, owner of Westport One, a talent and recruiting firm specializing in senior living leadership. Chris shares his extensive experience in recruitment, emphasizing the importance of influence over control in effective leadership. They discuss best practices for hiring and retention, impactful interview techniques for both hiring managers and candidates, and the nuances of building a strong, positive culture within organizations. Chris also highlights the critical role mindset plays in achieving professional success and creating significant influence within the industry.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
01:15 Chris Hines' Journey into Senior Living
03:39 Key Insights on Hiring and Retention
05:27 The Power of Influence in Leadership
08:35 Challenges and Mindset in Senior Living
12:44 Building Effective Teams and Culture
21:24 Growth and Career Advancement in Senior Living
27:40 Creating Your Own Opportunities
28:36 The Power of Influence in Leadership
29:37 Maintaining Positivity and Mindset
30:59 Effective Interview Questions
32:39 Evaluating Candidates' Energy and Passion
34:50 Candidates' Questions and Their Impact
40:18 The Two-Way Street of Interviews
44:54 Generational Differences in the Workforce
46:20 The Right Seat on the Bus
50:04 The Impact of Conversations
52:32 Acknowledging Efforts and Closing Remarks
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Erin (00:00):
It's not live.
Okay.
Ready.
Ready.
Here we go.
Welcome back to the 1st guestepisode of 2025.
I have Mr.
Chris Hines with me.
He is the owner of Westport 1,which is a talent and recruiting
firm.
Westport one for senior livingleadership.
(00:21):
And so thank you, Chris, forbeing here today.
Chris (00:24):
Thank you so much for having me.
Erin.
Erin (00:26):
I, I want to start off by saying, you know, I, I've
listened to several a podcastthat you have been on and I see
the medals behind you and thenwe had our kind of pre
conversation and I left thatconversation feeling.
So pumped up and living in thepossibilities of life that.
(00:52):
I could not wait to have thisconversation today.
So thank you for being a beaconof hope and positive influence
in life because our professionis, needs more people like that.
And I felt so energized afterour last conversation.
Chris (01:12):
Well, I really, really appreciate those words.
Erin (01:15):
Yeah.
So tell me about your, Journeyreal quick.
I mean, you have, I'll just saythis, I'll set it up like this.
You have an inside, likeunderstanding that most people
don't inside of our seniorliving profession.
You work with big companies andthen you actually talk to
(01:37):
leaders who you hire, get hiredinto companies.
You hear the great, you hear thegood, you hear the really bad
and you hear the not so bad.
Okay.
You have so much insight andperspective for almost every
layer of senior living.
I cannot wait to tap into that.
(01:57):
So talk about the journey ofwhat got you here, and then
we're going to dive into bestpractices on retaining and
hiring people because youbelieve.
They're really the same thing.
Chris (02:10):
Absolutely.
It's the, my journey reallystarted 27 years ago.
That's when I got intorecruiting all the way back in
the 20th century, 1997.
I didn't start out in, in seniorliving, the owner of the firm
who's now passed on, who I'venow taken over the ownership of
the firm.
He put me in engineering.
(02:30):
I didn't know anything aboutengineering.
I had friends in college thatwere engineers, but I didn't
quite understand what they did.
But what I quickly learned wasthe facets of recruiting and the
importance of a talentacquisition and just as
important, retention of thattalent.
Flash forward to 2001 is when weactually started our senior
(02:52):
living practice, combined withour healthcare practice.
Flash forward all the way to2014.
And that's where I intimatelygot involved in our senior
living leadership practice.
So I'm going on 11 years of dayin day out conversations with
not only the leaders of theorganizations that that work
(03:13):
across the country, from ahiring standpoint.
But on the flip side, those verysame leaders when it comes to
their career and theiraspirations.
So you're right.
We have a very unique, positionto have conversations on both
sides of the coin that reallyhelps to, color way outside the
(03:35):
lines of what this industry isreally about.
Erin (03:39):
Okay, so give us 3 of the big, if you could say to anyone,
here is what we need, here aresome big solutions to the big
problems that we're facing,because you see the data, right?
You have lots of data.
what would those be?
(04:00):
I believe leaders need to befocusing on influence a lot.
just.
Being around people who can be apositive influence, just based
on conversations that we've hadand how I left feeling energized
and positive and hopeful from aconversation, is influence in
(04:20):
such a powerful way.
So, what are the 3 things thatyou see that are patterns that
we can really be focusing on atany level within the industry?
Chris (04:32):
And that is a, that is a monumental question.
The three biggest things.
So let me start by breaking afallacy.
The fallacy is people believethat they can control others.
Erin (04:45):
Yes.
Chris (04:46):
There is zero possibility.
You're going to controleverybody, control somebody,
unless you've got a zapper ontheir neck.
You cannot control anybody else.
You can control yourself and youcan control three things about
yourself.
You can control what you say,you can control what you think,
and you can control what you do.
But all three of those have amagic word in the middle.
(05:08):
And that is you.
Once you remove you from theequation, it's all about
influence and influence iseither controlled one way or
what a terrible, double entendreof the word influence is used
for the good or for the bad.
Erin (05:26):
Yes.
Chris (05:27):
So thinking about the big things that we can do is first
from a hiring and retentionstandpoint.
The leaders of the organizationfrom the CEO and owner and
investors down through the Csuite, down through the regional
operations, all the way down tothe community leadership.
They could influence their team,By the three things, I just
(05:51):
recommended, or they said.
You can, they can control whatthey think, they can control
what they say, and they cancontrol what they do.
But the words that they saymatter little if it is not
followed up with what theyactually do.
That has a tremendous impact onretention.
Saying thank you is such amagical and powerful thing.
(06:16):
Saying you're doing a great job.
Saying, hey, can we work on thistogether?
And then working on it togetherwith them.
That influence has more impactthan almost anything else.
Culture is thrown around soeasily, but culture is one to
one.
(06:36):
Person to person, person toteam, and then the ripple goes
beyond that.
It is not, tablets brought downoff the mountainside saying,
here is our company culture.
It's one to one what you say andwhat you do, and those things
are impacted by what you think.
So that's on the, the, theleadership side of their team.
(06:58):
On the flip side, theprofessional in the role, and
with the exception of the ownerof the company.
Even the president and CEO, ifthey don't have an equity stake,
they're an employee.
So this is, I say these words tothe person at the very top, to
the caregiver who's on day two,how you think about This
(07:21):
industry matters greatly,because how you think about this
industry has such an impact onwhat you do.
How you think about the peopleyou work with matters greatly.
What you say influences them.
How you treat others influencesthem.
And if at the end of the day,you are not being treated the
(07:43):
right way, you are not beingtold the right things, and the
actions are not following up,Then again, from the caregiver
on day two up to the CEO, youhave to then look out for
yourself and find where is theright place for me, where maybe
I'm going back to step one.
I'm already on step three orfour, or at least I already know
(08:05):
what situation I have.
I know what's good.
I know what's bad.
I know the words they've said.
I know who the company jerk is.
I know where the coffee pot is.
So you know those things, butnow you may have to make that
step back to step one, but youdo that for the opportunity to
go multiple steps forward.
So I can't really crystallizethose into a top three, but from
(08:27):
those two sides, influencingothers and influencing yourself
really is one, two, and threeall by itself.
Erin (08:35):
Yeah, I think we missed the mark a lot in training new,
new leaders and even buildingthe bench, right?
Of leaders that couldpotentially take over,
communities because we have somuch regulatory and policy and
procedure things that we, as aperson, as an adult who grew up
(08:59):
inside the senior livingindustry.
From the time I was 19 to thetime I was 42, did take a year
and a half break to go to a techcompany and sit in a cubicle,
which wasn't my thing.
But, mindset was never spokenabout and when I first became an
executive director, I reallythought.
That there was control, and Inaively thought that everybody
(09:26):
thought like me, everybody wasmotivated.
Like me.
All I had to do was saysomething as an executive
director and they would do it.
I mean, like, I, I, I literallythought that because that's the
way I was raised and I did mostthings I was told to do.
and it was a very rude awakeningwhen I realized that.
(09:48):
That's not going to happen.
And how many times do we, asleaders make that same mistake
over and over again?
It's the same way with our kids.
It's the same way with with lotsof different things.
And when we do change ourmindset to realize, I can't
control them, but I caninfluence them.
And then how do we influencethem?
You have to figure that out.
(10:09):
I tell new administrators.
You have 3 months.
Your first three months, you canactually get stuff done because
of your title, because they'retrying to figure you out.
After three months, your titlemeans nothing anymore.
If you aren't doing what you sayyou're going to do, if you are
working differently than whatyou're saying, and if they don't
see you out and about, it'sgone.
(10:31):
It's gone.
And those first three months arethe hardest as a new leader
anyways, because you're tryingto figure patterns out and
policies out and everythingelse.
So I have found.
I mean, just even in ourconversation and watching other
people and seeing the successesin my life and my career, when
you know who you are and youwalk in that consistently, you
(10:53):
will influence.
Chris (10:54):
That's right.
Absolutely.
That's
Erin (10:55):
simple.
It's that hard.
But you know, it's that simple
Chris (10:59):
and you incorporate all the
Erin (11:01):
glory or all the whatever, but even though it's still you,
it's still you in there.
Chris (11:06):
That's right.
That's right.
Like you said, titles don't meananything.
You mentioned the medals I havebehind me.
I'm a big runner.
I love running.
Any distance every distance asyou could kind of tell from the
those I got back there for theyears down I'm gonna cross over
my 300th race.
but just yesterday I want to seehow this shows up.
I did this race.
(11:27):
I have a dream 5k.
Martin Luther King days today.
Well, if I were to have a dreamabout this business, it really
starts with what you justmentioned.
And that is mindset.
So many people let thechallenges of this industry
knock them down.
So many people let others, otherwords and other actions knock
(11:48):
them down.
Nobody controls the six inchesbetween my head, my, my ears.
But me, it starts with you.
You talked about those first 90days as a leader.
Yes.
But if you go in there runningscared, they're going to see it.
Erin (12:05):
They're going to eat you up.
Chris (12:07):
Yes, they will.
And after those 90 days, theywant to see your actions.
And I can tell youunequivocally, 100 out of 100
times, I have never taken a whatwe call a job order or an intake
call about an opening.
I have never had a seniorleader.
Give us an opening for anexecutive director, let's say,
(12:28):
and they say, you know, I reallyneed someone who wants to sit
behind the desk and focus onpaperwork.
Never.
They need you in front of them.
But in order to be in front ofthem, you have to have the right
mindset.
So you are absolutely rightthere.
Erin (12:44):
It's, I hear it over and over again.
and honestly, there were eventimes where I was told to change
things because I mean, I wasvery centered on the people,
but, like, I know, becausethrough my career, having turned
around for communities from veryunderperforming to high
performing communities, like, ifyou don't have the buy in of
(13:08):
your team, you're not going tobe successful.
It's it, it's just, and I thinkwhat we're seeing now is the
relationship, the better therelationship you can showcase
with your people on a tour.
The more trust and the morewilling somebody is to choose
your community over somebodyelse.
Chris (13:26):
That's right.
Erin (13:26):
And so as a leader, you have to know your team.
And really as a sales director,you have to know your team.
There is no differentiationthere.
You have to be able toinfluence.
And in order to influence, youhave to know people.
It's not about you being known.
It's about knowing what peoplewant.
But, you know, you can stillfollow policy and procedure and
(13:51):
regulatory compliance.
And get to know people along theway.
Chris (13:56):
Mm-hmm
Erin (13:57):
There are things you can do to do that.
and there's a question thatcomes a lot that, you know, how
did I get a lot?
Is how do you build a team?
How do you build a culture?
Mm-hmm And.
Somebody would even say, youknow, when, when the frontline
team runs the community, how cana leader turn that around?
And we see that a lot, you know,and it's about, it's about
(14:19):
taking control, but then usinginfluence, you know, I am the
one in control.
Let's talk about it, you know,and, and getting their buy in is
critical.
Because the culture starts withthe leader.
A community is just a communityuntil a good leader steps in and
makes it a great place to live.
That's the truth.
(14:40):
I mean, do you have data thatsays otherwise?
Chris (14:43):
No, no.
I mean, it's the, it, anythingthat happens without someone
running the, the calls is luckand luck only lasts for so long.
So play a playbook.
It's gonna, it needs to be puttogether.
Maybe it's already given to you.
(15:04):
Maybe it's something that youhave to morph.
Maybe it's something you have tocreate.
But you have to ensure that youare following good steps.
But you also have to be willingto make changes quickly on the
fly.
Because no community is thesame.
I don't care what article is outthere saying that everything is
the same.
(15:24):
That is a complete fallacy.
Four communities lined on thesame street are going to be run
four different ways.
Are going to have four differentpopulations of residents.
And four different ways aregoing to need to be done for
those residents within thebasics of a simple framework.
But you have to listen to whatthe needs are.
(15:47):
And that holds true to theresidents, that holds true to
your team.
Jimmy Johnson, one of the famouscoaches of the Dallas Cowboys of
the 90s, went, ran, or won threechampionships, went to five
Super Bowls, I think maybe fiveSuper Bowls.
I'm a Cowboys fan.
So to me, he went to 15 SuperBowls in seven years.
but he used to always say, Itreat everybody exactly the
(16:09):
same.
That's because I treat everybodydifferent.
What John needs is different.
What Mark needs, what Mark needsis different.
And what Sally needs.
So you treat the people as theyneed it.
Not one way fits all, but theword influence matters greatly
in how you are treating them andhow you are working with them
(16:30):
because you are trying toinfluence their actions, not
trying to control what they do.
Erin (16:36):
You, you made a comment on our, our pre conversation and
you said you interviewed someoneor you were Trying to find them
someplace to work.
I'm not certainly the dynamicshere, but and this person was 1
of the most aware smartest.
understood all the dynamics ofthe position that you had ever
(17:00):
interviewed.
Chris (17:01):
Yeah.
Erin (17:02):
And that got me thinking, what does that mean?
So explain to me what thatmeans.
What was I mean, I'm sure youhave spoken to many people.
What does that.
When you think that, what didthis person say?
Chris (17:21):
No, it's what it's what they say and how they say it.
And trust me, we have spoken tothousands of leaders within
senior living and pretty muchmost of the leadership roles
from the community leadership.
To the regional, to the C suite.
So when, when you have that typeof, of data, that those quantity
(17:43):
of conversations, you get apretty good feel pretty quickly,
whether a someone is any good atwhat they do B, whether they
enjoy what they do and not justenjoy in their company, but
enjoy the industry and seewhether they can have an impact
down the road.
And usually we get that type ofgut feeling three to five
(18:05):
minutes into the conversation.
And it's just, it is furthersolidified every minute that we
talk to them every now and thenit takes a step back, but then
it goes usually two or threesteps forward.
So, when I was speaking about anexecutive director, that's one
of the most aware executivedirectors that has a feel for.
(18:26):
Think of baseball.
They call them five toolplayers.
The ones that can hit, run,throw.
they, they, they just have itall.
Well, if you had a five toolexecutive director, it's because
they understand all facets ofthe business and they operate at
an extremely high level.
In all facets of the businesswith resident and family
(18:47):
engagement.
And you and I both know howcritical that is that can make
or break a community with teamdevelopment.
And I'm not just talking theirleaders.
I'm talking all the way down tothe caregiver who's on day two.
Development of the team culturebuilding, and this is where
culture is created.
One again, one-to-oneconversations, not from from the
(19:09):
top down.
So they can build a culture themoment that they're in a
community, but they also havethe other intangibles that are
critical for those type ofroles.
They can manage the budgets.
They have incredible, incredibleawareness of NOI, not for the
sake of cutting, but for thesake of building.
And sometimes you build bycutting.
(19:30):
But they understand the good andbad there.
And then the owner and investorrelations.
Because that's just as critical.
I think long gone are the day ofan investor just giving money
for a community and once a yearasking to see a P& L.
I don't see those at all.
(19:52):
The investor groups that we workwith and we have a couple that
we work on a nationwide basis,they are intimately involved in
the operation.
The success or failure of Thosecommunities and almost all of
them have some type of directinteraction with the executive
directors and the regionalteams, not just at the C level.
(20:15):
So somebody who can do all ofthose things, the development,
the culture building, the familyand resident engagement, the NOI
and the financial side and theinvestor relations, that's
someone who really, reallyexcels in this industry.
And what I love aboutindividuals like that is not
(20:36):
every one of them.
And this might be a shocker foryou, Aaron, but not every, not
every one of them want to justkeep going up the corporate
ladder.
We have one right now, out inthe West who very easily should
be a regional or VPO, but theirheart is in community
leadership.
They've turned down regionalroles because their heart is at
(21:00):
the community level of beingable to see the impact directly
with the residents, with theirfamilies, with the team, and
that drives them because back tothat magic word, that's where
their influence is the greatest.
Erin (21:14):
Yeah, it's, it's true.
I think sometimes we get lostand this profession, is like any
other profession.
Like, I'll just speak for mystory.
It's like, you see people andfriends climbing the ladder and
you think you want that, butthat means climbing the ladder
in this profession is differentthan others because it requires
(21:39):
a lot more commitment,potentially, depending on where
you live.
And you work in this environmentfor many different reasons.
And if it's purpose and impactand, and all those intangible
things, moving up the ladder,you miss.
So much of that.
Chris (22:00):
Yep.
Erin (22:01):
You know, the day everybody
Chris (22:02):
wants to move up when they're young.
Everyone does.
I mean, you come out of your,whether you're coming out of
college or whether you're comingout of high school and going
into the trades, everyone hasthe mindset because it has been
ingrained in their head that youneed to move in advance.
But moving and advancing doesnot have to move up.
It could be within yourself.
It could be with the influencethat you have with others, but
(22:23):
very, very few people understandthat when they're young in their
career, they learn that as timegoes on, as they see others move
up and then move out.
Erin (22:34):
Yeah, I was at a, I'll never forget this.
I was at a leadership meetingand the vice president of HR
made a comment about how a lotof people in this room will be
executive directors forever.
I mean, those weren't the exactwords, but it was just like, and
that's okay.
That's, that's the professionthat we're in.
(22:56):
And that just hit me in such a,like, I felt like the breath had
been taken out of me because Iknew that that was me.
And.
Well, I assumed that was me, butI did not know what, what you
just said, right?
(23:16):
Like growth to me was soexternal and it's embarrassing
to really even think aboutreally, but like growth to me
was so external.
You're moving up the ladder.
You're doing this.
It was never about internalgrowth and that was a
perspective I never, ever had.
And I don't understand why.
(23:38):
It just was never, it wasalways, you got to grow here.
You have to grow here.
You have to grow here.
No one was ever saying to me,well, we got to do some, some
work here.
Chris (23:48):
That's right.
Erin (23:50):
And you know,
Chris (23:50):
growth, growth, growth doesn't come in defined fashion
all the time.
And the story that trickles intomy mind, anytime I think about
that, is literally when Iinterviewed for the job that I
started in June of 1997.
I started June 23rd, to beexact.
Well, on June 5th, I had myfirst interview.
And, Phil, who is the owner andfounder of the firm, he had me
(24:13):
meet with one of the otheraccount executives in the firm
as a peer interview.
And when I sat across the tablefrom that person, the person
looked at my resume, saw someadvancement, saw a lot of sales,
and she basically looked me inthe eye and said, Chris, if you
have any desire to move up inthis company, leave now.
It's never going to happen.
Phil's never going to letanybody do anything other than
(24:35):
what you're doing.
So if you're good with that,come on board.
If you aren't, get out.
But guess what?
At that time, that's what theadvancement opportunities were.
And she tried to beat into myhead, you're never going to do
anything other than what you'regoing to do in the job.
Well, within five years, I hadthree promotions.
(24:57):
None of them were defined.
They were created through myperformance, through what the
organization needed.
So when you talk about growth,and we talk about that in our
industry, there are definedroles of growth.
An executive director can moveto an operations specialist, can
move into a regional role, canmove to a VPO role.
(25:20):
But guess what?
There are other ways to grow.
You could possibly have just asmuch impact and as much meaning
by growing through mentorship.
And that doesn't require travelfour to five days a week.
Leaving your house on Sundaynight or Monday morning, coming
back at midnight on Thursday tohave an office day on Friday.
(25:41):
So growth can come in so manydifferent forms beyond the
defined structure that wetraditionally have in senior
living right now.
Erin (25:49):
It requires a lot of humility.
It requires and that's somethingthat I've realized over time as
well is unraveling thepreconceived notion of what
growth is and the humilitythat's required in that.
And then starting all over andrealizing, Oh, my God, I had
(26:12):
that all wrong.
Chris (26:14):
That's right.
Yeah.
And then,
Erin (26:16):
and then figuring out the path from that, which is, I
really think moving forward asa, as an industry, as a
profession, like that is wherewe need, that's where we need to
be.
Chris (26:28):
That's right.
That's right.
And again, it's going to come indifferent forms.
Yes, I guarantee you five yearsfrom now, they're going to have
the same traditional roles thatwe have, but one or two or three
new type of roles are going tocome about that the leaders
haven't even known are neededbecause it's going to be based
upon the evolution of what'sneeded at the time.
(26:52):
So you have to be willing andable to jump on those
opportunities when they come.
So when you think of it fromthe, the executive director,
I'll stick with that as theexample of them getting passed
over for a regional role.
Because they brought somebody infrom the outside.
Kind of like they're, they'venever, said that they, are going
(27:13):
to do something different thantheir culture is.
Every organization says theypromote from within.
And I truly believe that thevast majority believe that they
need to do that.
But it doesn't always happen.
So if you do get passed overbecause they bring someone in
externally, does not mean Thatyour opportunities for growth in
(27:37):
that organization are goneforever.
But it doesn't mean that youneed to stay there until the
dawn of time to wait to see ifanother one might come.
So I realize I'm talking out ofboth sides of my mouth right
there, but it is true.
You need to let them know youwant opportunities.
But the challenge is thoseopportunities in their minds are
(27:59):
only, well, we have these threeroles.
That's it.
Sometimes you have to createyour own opportunities.
And if you try and try and try,and what you attempt to do, and
you try, attempt to give, andyou attempt to give, and it is
not reciprocated, that's whenyou have to make the decision,
where can I go, where my giving,Can be reciprocated and be
(28:24):
acknowledged.
Erin (28:26):
Don't stay and work in a bunch of negative energy and
resent it.
Chris (28:31):
That's right.
Erin (28:32):
Don't do it.
That's the worst mistake you canmake.
Chris (28:36):
Yeah.
As long as you have tried toinfluence that negative energy.
Yes.
So, again, back to thatinfluence word, culture word,
those fallacies that are outthere.
It starts one to one.
An executive director, adirector of nursing, a sales
director, a regional director,they have the ability to drop
(28:57):
the pebble in the water and havea minimal, a minor, minor
impact.
Minuscule positive influencethat could change the course of
that organization because everycommunity is really its own
organization.
Yes.
They may have a corporatecompany that owns them that runs
them that manages them.
(29:18):
But if you think of everycommunity at its own
organization, that ripple.
As miniscule as it might be, canimpact that organization in a
very short amount of time.
So if you have tried toinfluence it and then it has not
been impacted, that's when youhave to start looking out for
yourself.
Erin (29:37):
Have you always been this positive?
Like forever?
Chris (29:40):
Annoyingly so, unfortunately, my mom was a big
believer in, in, in, in you cando anything.
so I've, I've lived that lifeall, since, since, I mean,
childhood, we moved fromCalifornia to Hawaii because she
thought it'd be better for us.
Well, it was a cool place togrow.
A great place to grow as a kid.
(30:00):
Okay.
And seeing that possibility.
Really has impacted me and Ijust don't let things get me.
Don't get me wrong.
I have bad days I have bad runsI have bad moments But because I
think the way that I do I havethe ability to try to change it
(30:20):
And not be as impacted on thevast roller coaster coaster of
the highs and the lows Becausei've i've worked my mind that I
can control me And if I cancontrol me, as long as I'm
pretty positive, I have anopportunity to do positive
things.
Erin (30:37):
It's really not about the glass being half full or half
empty.
It's just being thankful thatthere's a glass with some liquid
in it.
That's right.
Chris (30:44):
That's right.
And like my coffee cup, it mightbe three quarters empty right
now, but there's a pot outthere.
I could fill it up again.
Erin (30:51):
I know.
Chris (30:52):
Just like my mindset.
I can change my mindset by thethings I put into it.
Erin (30:57):
So, true.
Okay.
Speaking about influence and allthe data that you have to offer
us, I think it's important toask you.
You talked about interviews alittle bit.
What do you think for?
I mean, what are some topinterview questions that you
like to ask and then what wouldbe a good interview question
(31:19):
for, like, an executive directorto ask?
Someone, a manager that's comingin and we can Absolutely.
Chris (31:25):
Yeah, end on that because that's a great
Erin (31:27):
topic.
Chris (31:27):
That's right.
again, I'll talk to this from,from both sides of the coin.
One from the interviewerstandpoint.
Please, for the love of allthings you love, don't ask the
question, tell me aboutyourself.
Because you might be looking forone thing.
You might be looking to see ifthey can tell something in a
(31:48):
short and concise way.
But they may be thinking thatthey, that you want to hear from
the beginning of time and 45minutes later, you've gotten to
where you are right now.
Tell me about yourself does notgive them the proper framework.
When you are interviewing, askquestions that give the proper
framework to get what you'relooking for.
(32:09):
So front load the question witha little bit of setup that will
get you a good, impactfulanswer.
Something as simple as, youknow, in the last 12 months,
what are you most proud of?
How different is that than whatare you most proud of?
And even going even further, I'msure you love your family.
(32:31):
Beyond your family and yourpersonal accolades from a
professional standpoint in thelast 12 months, what are you
most proud of?
And if the response that you getdoes not get, I'm going to talk
about this from either a face toface standpoint or a video
virtual standpoint like thisover the phone, you don't get
this, but very, very fewinterviews today are done via
(32:53):
phone anymore.
They're done either via video orin person.
But when they start answeringthat question, and you do not
see a glimmer in their eye, ifyou don't see them percolate up
a little bit in their chair andget excited and lean in a little
bit, They are probably not goingto have the energy you need if
their story is, well, you know,I'm, I'm most proud of the, the
(33:15):
NOI report that we had lastquarter.
Wow.
What an impactful answer.
That's what you're most proudof.
So energy into that answer thatthat question lets you see their
energy level lets you see theirpersonality.
So that's from the, this oneexample on the hiring manager
side and the interviewer side onthe candidate side, a question
(33:39):
that we always coach ourcandidates to ask them that goes
back to the beginning of timeof, of, of, recruiters and, and
hiring coaches and any articleyou could see going back to the
sixties is, do you have anyconcerns about my ability to do
the job?
Cool.
Well, here's the question that Ilove coaching a candidate to
ask.
(33:59):
And that is, how can you see mebeing successful in the first
three to six months on this job?
And now it is time for thatcandidate to actively watch.
Does that hiring manager go coy?
And do they go, well, I mean, Ithink you could, you could, you
could, you could do a good job.
You are not getting that job,buddy.
(34:20):
If that's the type of answer youget, but if you see the hiring
manager, all of a sudden perkingup a little bit, leaning in a
little bit, and you start seeingtheir voice change a little bit
saying that they can see youbeing impactful here and being
successful because of yourexperience doing this and
because of the story you told meabout that.
And I could really see that yourenergy and passion are going to
(34:41):
really have an impact with, withBob.
When you start getting that typeof reaction from them, not a
guarantee you're going to getthe job, but you've got a pretty
good chance.
Thanks.
And the secondary part benefitof that question is very few
interviews are done in a silo.
Very, very few or hiringdecisions are made by one
(35:03):
person.
So when that interview is done,that hiring manager, that CEO,
that president, that VPO, thatregional, that executive
director interviewing, a, amember of their team, they're
going to talk to somebody else.
And that somebody else is goingto go, how'd the interview go?
And usually the response they'regoing to give is, Oh, it was
(35:25):
good about this.
It was bad about that.
But if you've asked thequestion, how can you see me
being successful on this job inthe first 30 to 60 to 90 days,
first three to six months,whatever timeframe you want to
give.
And they respond in a positiveway.
You have psychologically createdthem answers in their head when
(35:46):
they got to go talk to somebodyelse.
About how the interview went andif they're ingrained in their
head already those words aregoing to come out again So you
were helping yourself if it wentwell So you can go to the
negative any concerns about myability to do the job and you
could try to Swarm your wayaround and try to answer those
concerns Or you could flip tothe positive And go into how can
(36:11):
you see me being successful inthis role?
What type of impact do you thinkI could have based upon the
responses I've given you to beimpactful in this role?
You can choose the words thatmatch your own style, but you're
trying to see what answer theygive you because that will have
an impact on that immediateinterview, on your likelihood of
getting the job, and on themtalking to somebody else.
Erin (36:33):
Yeah, I was helping 1 of my coaching clients get ready
for a, for a big interview andit, it's.
It's convincing people that theyhave the right to ask questions
and that even though you wantthis opportunity, and it's a big
opportunity for you, you have tomake sure that it's the right
(36:54):
opportunity for you and you havecontrol and influence in that
room just as much as they do,because you want to make sure
that it's the right position foryou.
So, how we word the questions.
is important, how we think aboutthem, and, and the knowledge
going into the interview.
But as a candidate, you have theopportunity to ask questions
(37:18):
too.
And that's an experience.
Chris (37:20):
You are mandated to ask questions, in my opinion.
I have never hired, again, beendoing this for 27 years, we've
had a firm as large as 38people.
I've never hired a recruiter,when I ask them, do you have any
questions?
And they say, no, I think you'veanswered everything.
Never.
So you are mandated to asksomething.
(37:42):
In that interview, because yourquestions show your interest.
Your questions show your, your,your thoughtfulness.
Your questions show yourpreparedness for the interview.
If you cannot go into aninterview without one or two
questions that you could askthem, you are not going to get
that job.
Even if it's a question that itdoesn't matter if there's
(38:02):
already answered.
Hey, when you were talking aboutblank, could you elaborate on
that a little bit?
That's a question that itdoesn't matter what it is.
If they truly were the mostmagical interviewer and they
answered every single thing thatyou, you could have asked, you
had a list of 15 things you weregetting ready to ask him about.
And they, Oh, they checkmarkedall 15 of them.
(38:25):
You could ask them to elaborateon something.
Never ever leave an interviewwithout asking something.
You could tell I get a littlepassionate about that.
Erin (38:34):
Yeah, well, it's true.
I mean, I, I saw, A post, and Idon't even remember where, and
it was on LinkedIn, and it wasjust about how, you know,
there's not a lot of training oninterviewing questions for
leaders Yeah, right.
And so a conversation like, thisis just so eye opening and now
(38:54):
we have lots of opportunities tofind that education for
ourselves.
The problem is, do we have thetime because time and attention
honestly, inside a community, aleader inside the community time
and attention is your greatestasset.
And so how you choose to spendthat is really, really important
because there's not a lot oftime.
but I think.
(39:14):
Interviewing knowing what youwant and need as a community and
you as a leader, right?
Your strengths, your weaknesses,what the community needs at the
moment we knowing that mindsetboundary and energies are
important.
And you just told us what tolook for to see if the energies
match.
Hello.
That's so powerful.
You know, like, these arethings.
(39:36):
These are the non verbal, the,you know, soft skills that are
actually probably some of theskills you need the most that
are not necessarily brought toour attention as much.
So very, very, very, veryvaluable content.
Chris (39:53):
Well, it's so far beyond skills, duties and
responsibilities.
The duties and responsibilitiesand your skills are what got you
to the interview.
Beyond that, if the interview iseffective, that's five minutes
of the conversation.
Now it's about, are you theright fit?
(40:13):
Are you not the right fit?
And how could you be the rightfit?
But guess what?
This is gone are the days ofthis being a one sided
interview.
This is not a matter of thehiring manager asking questions
and the candidate answering,hoping to get the job.
Questions are asked off bothsides.
(40:35):
And visually, that really looksreally strange that I'm playing
with my hands right there.
But I do it on purpose, becauseit is a two way street.
Just as much as the intervieweris interviewing you to see if
you are the right fit, andwhether you, if they think you
could have an impact on the job,As the candidate, you are
interviewing them to determineif is this the right
(40:55):
organization, is this the rightleader, is this the right team,
is this the right culture, fromthe words they say of their
culture at least, that where Ifeel I could be a fit, and where
I could have an impact.
If all you are looking for is ajob, you can get one.
But odds are, you're going to belooking for a job nine months,
(41:17):
twelve months, fifteen monthsdown the road.
If you're looking for a placewhere you can impact, that's
where you have a chance for somelongevity.
And longevity is unfortunate inour day and age now.
Again, I started in 1997.
In 1997, the average tenure of aprofessional, this is not senior
living, this is across theboard, the professional defined
as a college, degreed,individual or someone in
(41:40):
management and above if theydidn't have a college degree.
The average tenure is 4.
8 years pre COVID.
So I have to throw out the COVIDyears because the only reliable
number they've not come out witha more reliable number since
COVID.
So I'm gonna go off that timeframe of pre 2020.
The average tenure was 2.
7 years.
(42:01):
Add our industry to the mix.
average 10 years, not that Ibet.
And the clinical side, 15 monthsis good tenure and that is so
sad to say.
On the sales side, you have theoutliers, the five and 10 years
sales directors, but the norm is12 months to two years.
(42:23):
Executive directors is a littlemore, the good ones two to five
years.
So it is sad that 10 year hasdropped so low, but that is the
reality.
And unfortunately, there arestill hiring managers who will
only look at candidates who havefive plus years with their
community.
Well, guess what?
In any given market, there mightbe one or two of those.
(42:45):
And one might have been the onethat you just let go.
So we have to get beyond thewhat was and deal with the what
is.
And that is a two way street aswell.
So back to that interview thing,it is no longer a one sided
interview.
It is a two sided interview.
So a hiring manager can never beoffended by a question being
asked that might ruffle theirfeathers a little bit.
(43:06):
Such as, I've been doing mychecking.
The reputation of theorganization in this market Has
not been that great.
I'm sure it is across thecountry, but in this market,
it's not that great.
What are you guys doing tochange that?
Because what you're doing isgoing to impact my ability,
should I be chosen to hire theright associates and right team
(43:28):
members to make this organ, thiscommunity great again.
Very few candidates are afraidto ruffle feathers like that,
but boy, do you change the tableset up when you do so no longer
are you on one side of the tablethere on the other side of the
table.
Now you've brought the chairstogether.
In a virtual sense.
Now you guys are talking aboutthis together.
(43:49):
And if you have a hiring managerwho doesn't like you asking
those questions, that's probablynot the right organization for
you.
Erin (43:54):
No.
Yeah.
I mean, because people willinstantly feel threatened by
those questions.
And now granted, we have, as a,as a candidate, we have a
responsibility to say themappropriately.
Chris (44:04):
With the right tone and inflection.
Absolutely.
You say that in an accusatoryway.
Dude, I hear your organizationsucks.
What are you doing about it?
That won't go over very well.
Erin (44:15):
Yes, tonality is important, but it is a very
valuable question.
And if you're looking for aleader, that signifies that they
are a leader.
Chris (44:24):
That's right.
And that they're in the game,that they are not just looking
for a job, that they're lookingfor a place they can have
impact.
Erin (44:30):
And impact starts with influence.
Chris (44:32):
That's right.
And influence, you start withwhat you think and how you
think.
Start, again, it comes back toyou.
It all, that vicious circle, itall comes back to you.
What you think, what you say,and what you do.
Erin (44:44):
Yeah, I mean, it really does.
I mean, I talk to people andthey instantly will say things
that I can, you know, of course,you hear it.
Nobody wants to work anymore.
I can't get anybody to doanything.
You know, things along thatline, and there are elements of
truth to that, but the greatestdivide is generational, and it
(45:09):
is certain people not wanting tochange who they are to meet the
people that they say that don'twant to work anymore.
Chris (45:16):
Yeah, and the generational side, it does have
a little bit of challenge to me,because they're saying, oh, no
millennial or Gen X er, or Gen Zer wants to, wants to work hard.
That's baloney.
Erin (45:30):
Let me tell you,
Chris (45:34):
yes,
Erin (45:36):
it does
Chris (45:36):
not matter what generation pocket somebody
follows.
And I think what now we're inthe generation alpha is the new
workforce.
And now they're going to go offthe Greek alphabet for the rest
of the generations to make iteasy.
Well, it's just a band of time.
I have met incredibly hard.
working baby boomers.
I've met some incredibly lazybaby boomers.
(45:59):
I've met some amazing Gen Xers.
I've met some lazy Gen Xers.
But you know what?
They can be influenced and theiractions can change if led the
right way.
And if not, they're illustratingwhat seat they want to have on
the bus.
And that seat is the bus stopoutside of the bus.
(46:20):
Have you ever heard of theanalogy, being, have it be on
the right seat on the bus.
Erin (46:24):
Yes.
Chris (46:24):
Okay.
So Jim Collins, just for therest of your audience, in case
they haven't heard it.
Jim Collins, the renowned authorfrom a, from a business book
standpoint has written a coupleof incredible books, but one of
the most impactful ones of thelate 20th century, beginning of
the 21st century is the bookGood to Great.
And in that book, he talks aboutyou have to have the right
(46:45):
people on the bus, but then hetakes it one step further.
You have to have the rightpeople on the bus, but you got
to make sure they're in theright seat.
Erin (46:52):
Right.
Yeah.
Chris (46:54):
And to our discussion here, we've talked about who's
driving that bus.
That's the leader who's driving.
That bus has an impact on wherethe people behind them are
sitting.
And they're impacted by how theyact and they are impacting them
by what they recommend beingdone.
Now, I'm not going back to thegreat school days of the bus
(47:15):
driver, yelling and screaming atthe top of their lungs, sit down
or you won't be on my bustomorrow.
Stop throwing that Sally.
I'm not talking those daysbecause we aren't dealing with
kids.
We're dealing with adults But wecould lead them to change their
actions We can take someone whomight sit in the back of the bus
(47:36):
because they want to beDisruptive to within a couple of
months wanting to sit at thefront of the bus and help
everybody out By how we leadthem.
We have true, true impact onthem.
But just to close that analogyout, if you've tried to impact
them, you've tried to lead, andyou've tried to get that person
who might have been lazy, andyou've tried to work with them,
(47:59):
and they just won't make thosechange with all the coaching and
guidance you try to give them,there's still a seat for them.
It's just at the bus stop.
Not on your bus anymore.
Erin (48:10):
Like you said, everybody has a seat, but there's a button
for every seat.
Chris (48:14):
There's a butt for every seat and great organizations
have lots of options.
I'll stay away from the buttanalogy there.
Okay.
But they have a lot of options,but organizations that are
challenged.
They still have options too,because people want to have the
opportunity to impact.
People want to have theopportunity to change.
(48:36):
The messaging just has to beshifted a little bit.
You can't blow smoke up them andjust say, we're the greatest
organization out there.
We have incredible communities.
If that's not the case in thatmarket, be honest with them.
Hey, we've had some challenges.
Those challenges have beendirectly impacted by the leaders
that we've had in thisorganization.
We are working to make thatchange.
(48:56):
And that's starting with usfinding the right blank.
Is that you that is completelydifferent than me trying to blow
smoke and telling me telling youthat we're a great organization
and you should be honored andprivileged to come to work for
us if I were to be humble and ifI were to be vulnerable and say,
we've had challenges and we'reneeding to change the team
because of the challenges.
(49:18):
I'm showing a littlevulnerability and what you would
like to work for someone whoshows a little bit of
vulnerability versus.
Oh, it's not my fault.
I don't know anything aboutthat.
I'm gonna stick my head in thesand a little more.
So there are, there is the rightperson for every role.
There's the right seat for everybutt, to bring it back to that
fun analogy.
Erin (49:37):
Yeah.
I still am energetic.
Like, you still bring theenergy, like, You should get on
stages and speak to people.
You know what I mean?
Like,
Chris (49:48):
I appreciate that.
And I, I have been blessed tohave those opportunities, but I,
and I'm sure more opportunitieslike that will come, but I'm
just as energized by you and Ihaving a one on one conversation
like this because of the mediumwe're doing it.
Yeah, you and I don't know theimpact we're going to have from
this conversation.
(50:09):
And the greatest story I cantell you about that of the
impact of these types ofconversations in in a podcast
form.
I don't want to call it aninterview in a conversation form
is we don't know who's going tolisten and the impact is going
to have.
I went to a conference that,that we were, I believe, at the
same one together.
And, I helped put on a 5k funrun for the group.
(50:33):
And I went for a pre run to mapout the course, to make sure
that I had the right turns, Iwasn't sending people in the
wrong direction, or, or makingsure that they can get back to
where we started.
And somebody came on that prerun with me.
And in that run, The personliterally cited back to me some
of the things I had said in apodcast interview and the, the
(50:58):
heart swelling, the jaw dropthat I had at that moment is we
don't have a clue who's going tolisten to this, whether it's one
person And it's my wife whohappens to be the only listener
to this and trust me that's nothappening.
Okay She hears me talk enough Wedon't know the one person who
might listen to thisconversation and they hear one
(51:20):
thing that I said Or one thingthat you said that changes their
course So On that little pre 5krun and that individual reciting
back to me some of the thingsthat I said, and they shared the
impact that it had on them andhow they shifted their mindset
and their actions that willstick with me forever.
(51:43):
And that's why I love sure.
It's cool being on stage.
I think the largest one I'vebeen on had 10, 000 people on
the in the audience, but I lovethese one on one conversations.
Just as much because the impactcan be just as exponential.
Erin (51:58):
Yeah, I mean, like, I feel just I feel joy and possibility
and I don't know.
I hope our listeners feel thesame way because we've given
them a lot to think about a lotof tactical information to try
and to understand that.
You are in control.
(52:18):
You can create your story.
It doesn't matter what happenedin the past.
When you own your story, you cancreate your future.
And you've shown us that.
and that's really important.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Well, thank you.
Chris (52:32):
I want to acknowledge you for a second, Aaron, because
this is not easy.
I know the effort you have toput in to put together a podcast
like this, to take the time andenergy, A, to find people who
are willing to talk, B, to putit in a professional format and
C, put it out there.
You are putting yourself on theline every time you put it in a
(52:52):
podcast out there and for you tohave the stick to it ness to
keep on going.
94 percent of the podcasts thathave been created are done
within five episodes.
So the fact that you are goingon a couple of years now, and
I've been watching all along,even some of those crazy ones
with your Dion glasses.
So thank you for sticking withthis because I know the effort
(53:18):
and energy and time you have toput into this.
And you are not doing this forthe volumes of cash that are
sitting behind you becauseyou've put this together.
Right.
You're doing it.
Yes.
It's because of your willingnessand wanting to learn and wanting
to give back.
So thank you very much for whatyou've done.
Erin (53:37):
Thank you.
Thank you for acknowledgingthat.
It does take work.
I do love it.
And it's for what you say.
It's the impact.
It's it's the impact it's for mylearning.
and it's also for other peoplelike me who, who don't get the
opportunity to meet Chris.
But can now hear how he impactspeople, which is amazing.
Chris (53:59):
So I appreciate that.
Erin (54:01):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
And as always to my listeners,aspire for more for you.
Thank you for joining us today.
It's not live.
Okay.
Ready.
Ready.
Here we go.
Welcome back to the 1st guestepisode of 2025.
I have Mr.
Chris Hines with me.
He is the owner of Westport 1,which is a talent and recruiting
firm.
Westport one for senior livingleadership.
(00:21):
And so thank you, Chris, forbeing here today.
Chris (00:24):
Thank you so much for having me.
Erin.
Erin (00:26):
I, I want to start off by saying, you know, I, I've
listened to several a podcastthat you have been on and I see
the medals behind you and thenwe had our kind of pre
conversation and I left thatconversation feeling.
So pumped up and living in thepossibilities of life that.
(00:52):
I could not wait to have thisconversation today.
So thank you for being a beaconof hope and positive influence
in life because our professionis, needs more people like that.
And I felt so energized afterour last conversation.
Chris (01:12):
Well, I really, really appreciate those words.
Erin (01:15):
Yeah.
So tell me about your, Journeyreal quick.
I mean, you have, I'll just saythis, I'll set it up like this.
You have an inside, likeunderstanding that most people
don't inside of our seniorliving profession.
You work with big companies andthen you actually talk to
(01:37):
leaders who you hire, get hiredinto companies.
You hear the great, you hear thegood, you hear the really bad
and you hear the not so bad.
Okay.
You have so much insight andperspective for almost every
layer of senior living.
I cannot wait to tap into that.
(01:57):
So talk about the journey ofwhat got you here, and then
we're going to dive into bestpractices on retaining and
hiring people because youbelieve.
They're really the same thing.
Chris (02:10):
Absolutely.
It's the, my journey reallystarted 27 years ago.
That's when I got intorecruiting all the way back in
the 20th century, 1997.
I didn't start out in, in seniorliving, the owner of the firm
who's now passed on, who I'venow taken over the ownership of
the firm.
He put me in engineering.
(02:30):
I didn't know anything aboutengineering.
I had friends in college thatwere engineers, but I didn't
quite understand what they did.
But what I quickly learned wasthe facets of recruiting and the
importance of a talentacquisition and just as
important, retention of thattalent.
Flash forward to 2001 is when weactually started our senior
(02:52):
living practice, combined withour healthcare practice.
Flash forward all the way to2014.
And that's where I intimatelygot involved in our senior
living leadership practice.
So I'm going on 11 years of dayin day out conversations with
not only the leaders of theorganizations that that work
(03:13):
across the country, from ahiring standpoint.
But on the flip side, those verysame leaders when it comes to
their career and theiraspirations.
So you're right.
We have a very unique, positionto have conversations on both
sides of the coin that reallyhelps to, color way outside the
(03:35):
lines of what this industry isreally about.
Erin (03:39):
Okay, so give us 3 of the big, if you could say to anyone,
here is what we need, here aresome big solutions to the big
problems that we're facing,because you see the data, right?
You have lots of data.
what would those be?
(04:00):
I believe leaders need to befocusing on influence a lot.
just.
Being around people who can be apositive influence, just based
on conversations that we've hadand how I left feeling energized
and positive and hopeful from aconversation, is influence in
(04:20):
such a powerful way.
So, what are the 3 things thatyou see that are patterns that
we can really be focusing on atany level within the industry?
Chris (04:32):
And that is a, that is a monumental question.
The three biggest things.
So let me start by breaking afallacy.
The fallacy is people believethat they can control others.
Erin (04:45):
Yes.
Chris (04:46):
There is zero possibility.
You're going to controleverybody, control somebody,
unless you've got a zapper ontheir neck.
You cannot control anybody else.
You can control yourself and youcan control three things about
yourself.
You can control what you say,you can control what you think,
and you can control what you do.
But all three of those have amagic word in the middle.
(05:08):
And that is you.
Once you remove you from theequation, it's all about
influence and influence iseither controlled one way or
what a terrible, double entendreof the word influence is used
for the good or for the bad.
Erin (05:26):
Yes.
Chris (05:27):
So thinking about the big things that we can do is first
from a hiring and retentionstandpoint.
The leaders of the organizationfrom the CEO and owner and
investors down through the Csuite, down through the regional
operations, all the way down tothe community leadership.
They could influence their team,By the three things, I just
(05:51):
recommended, or they said.
You can, they can control whatthey think, they can control
what they say, and they cancontrol what they do.
But the words that they saymatter little if it is not
followed up with what theyactually do.
That has a tremendous impact onretention.
Saying thank you is such amagical and powerful thing.
(06:16):
Saying you're doing a great job.
Saying, hey, can we work on thistogether?
And then working on it togetherwith them.
That influence has more impactthan almost anything else.
Culture is thrown around soeasily, but culture is one to
one.
(06:36):
Person to person, person toteam, and then the ripple goes
beyond that.
It is not, tablets brought downoff the mountainside saying,
here is our company culture.
It's one to one what you say andwhat you do, and those things
are impacted by what you think.
So that's on the, the, theleadership side of their team.
(06:58):
On the flip side, theprofessional in the role, and
with the exception of the ownerof the company.
Even the president and CEO, ifthey don't have an equity stake,
they're an employee.
So this is, I say these words tothe person at the very top, to
the caregiver who's on day two,how you think about This
(07:21):
industry matters greatly,because how you think about this
industry has such an impact onwhat you do.
How you think about the peopleyou work with matters greatly.
What you say influences them.
How you treat others influencesthem.
And if at the end of the day,you are not being treated the
(07:43):
right way, you are not beingtold the right things, and the
actions are not following up,Then again, from the caregiver
on day two up to the CEO, youhave to then look out for
yourself and find where is theright place for me, where maybe
I'm going back to step one.
I'm already on step three orfour, or at least I already know
(08:05):
what situation I have.
I know what's good.
I know what's bad.
I know the words they've said.
I know who the company jerk is.
I know where the coffee pot is.
So you know those things, butnow you may have to make that
step back to step one, but youdo that for the opportunity to
go multiple steps forward.
So I can't really crystallizethose into a top three, but from
(08:27):
those two sides, influencingothers and influencing yourself
really is one, two, and threeall by itself.
Erin (08:35):
Yeah, I think we missed the mark a lot in training new,
new leaders and even buildingthe bench, right?
Of leaders that couldpotentially take over,
communities because we have somuch regulatory and policy and
procedure things that we, as aperson, as an adult who grew up
(08:59):
inside the senior livingindustry.
From the time I was 19 to thetime I was 42, did take a year
and a half break to go to a techcompany and sit in a cubicle,
which wasn't my thing.
But, mindset was never spokenabout and when I first became an
executive director, I reallythought.
That there was control, and Inaively thought that everybody
(09:26):
thought like me, everybody wasmotivated.
Like me.
All I had to do was saysomething as an executive
director and they would do it.
I mean, like, I, I, I literallythought that because that's the
way I was raised and I did mostthings I was told to do.
and it was a very rude awakeningwhen I realized that.
(09:48):
That's not going to happen.
And how many times do we, asleaders make that same mistake
over and over again?
It's the same way with our kids.
It's the same way with with lotsof different things.
And when we do change ourmindset to realize, I can't
control them, but I caninfluence them.
And then how do we influencethem?
You have to figure that out.
(10:09):
I tell new administrators.
You have 3 months.
Your first three months, you canactually get stuff done because
of your title, because they'retrying to figure you out.
After three months, your titlemeans nothing anymore.
If you aren't doing what you sayyou're going to do, if you are
working differently than whatyou're saying, and if they don't
see you out and about, it'sgone.
(10:31):
It's gone.
And those first three months arethe hardest as a new leader
anyways, because you're tryingto figure patterns out and
policies out and everythingelse.
So I have found.
I mean, just even in ourconversation and watching other
people and seeing the successesin my life and my career, when
you know who you are and youwalk in that consistently, you
(10:53):
will influence.
Chris (10:54):
That's right.
Absolutely.
That's
Erin (10:55):
simple.
It's that hard.
But you know, it's that simple
Chris (10:59):
and you incorporate all the
Erin (11:01):
glory or all the whatever, but even though it's still you,
it's still you in there.
Chris (11:06):
That's right.
That's right.
Like you said, titles don't meananything.
You mentioned the medals I havebehind me.
I'm a big runner.
I love running.
Any distance every distance asyou could kind of tell from the
those I got back there for theyears down I'm gonna cross over
my 300th race.
but just yesterday I want to seehow this shows up.
I did this race.
(11:27):
I have a dream 5k.
Martin Luther King days today.
Well, if I were to have a dreamabout this business, it really
starts with what you justmentioned.
And that is mindset.
So many people let thechallenges of this industry
knock them down.
So many people let others, otherwords and other actions knock
(11:48):
them down.
Nobody controls the six inchesbetween my head, my, my ears.
But me, it starts with you.
You talked about those first 90days as a leader.
Yes.
But if you go in there runningscared, they're going to see it.
Erin (12:05):
They're going to eat you up.
Chris (12:07):
Yes, they will.
And after those 90 days, theywant to see your actions.
And I can tell youunequivocally, 100 out of 100
times, I have never taken a whatwe call a job order or an intake
call about an opening.
I have never had a seniorleader.
Give us an opening for anexecutive director, let's say,
(12:28):
and they say, you know, I reallyneed someone who wants to sit
behind the desk and focus onpaperwork.
Never.
They need you in front of them.
But in order to be in front ofthem, you have to have the right
mindset.
So you are absolutely rightthere.
Erin (12:44):
It's, I hear it over and over again.
and honestly, there were eventimes where I was told to change
things because I mean, I wasvery centered on the people,
but, like, I know, becausethrough my career, having turned
around for communities from veryunderperforming to high
performing communities, like, ifyou don't have the buy in of
(13:08):
your team, you're not going tobe successful.
It's it, it's just, and I thinkwhat we're seeing now is the
relationship, the better therelationship you can showcase
with your people on a tour.
The more trust and the morewilling somebody is to choose
your community over somebodyelse.
Chris (13:26):
That's right.
Erin (13:26):
And so as a leader, you have to know your team.
And really as a sales director,you have to know your team.
There is no differentiationthere.
You have to be able toinfluence.
And in order to influence, youhave to know people.
It's not about you being known.
It's about knowing what peoplewant.
But, you know, you can stillfollow policy and procedure and
(13:51):
regulatory compliance.
And get to know people along theway.
Chris (13:56):
Mm-hmm
Erin (13:57):
There are things you can do to do that.
and there's a question thatcomes a lot that, you know, how
did I get a lot?
Is how do you build a team?
How do you build a culture?
Mm-hmm And.
Somebody would even say, youknow, when, when the frontline
team runs the community, how cana leader turn that around?
And we see that a lot, you know,and it's about, it's about
(14:19):
taking control, but then usinginfluence, you know, I am the
one in control.
Let's talk about it, you know,and, and getting their buy in is
critical.
Because the culture starts withthe leader.
A community is just a communityuntil a good leader steps in and
makes it a great place to live.
That's the truth.
(14:40):
I mean, do you have data thatsays otherwise?
Chris (14:43):
No, no.
I mean, it's the, it, anythingthat happens without someone
running the, the calls is luckand luck only lasts for so long.
So play a playbook.
It's gonna, it needs to be puttogether.
Maybe it's already given to you.
(15:04):
Maybe it's something that youhave to morph.
Maybe it's something you have tocreate.
But you have to ensure that youare following good steps.
But you also have to be willingto make changes quickly on the
fly.
Because no community is thesame.
I don't care what article is outthere saying that everything is
the same.
(15:24):
That is a complete fallacy.
Four communities lined on thesame street are going to be run
four different ways.
Are going to have four differentpopulations of residents.
And four different ways aregoing to need to be done for
those residents within thebasics of a simple framework.
But you have to listen to whatthe needs are.
(15:47):
And that holds true to theresidents, that holds true to
your team.
Jimmy Johnson, one of the famouscoaches of the Dallas Cowboys of
the 90s, went, ran, or won threechampionships, went to five
Super Bowls, I think maybe fiveSuper Bowls.
I'm a Cowboys fan.
So to me, he went to 15 SuperBowls in seven years.
but he used to always say, Itreat everybody exactly the
(16:09):
same.
That's because I treat everybodydifferent.
What John needs is different.
What Mark needs, what Mark needsis different.
And what Sally needs.
So you treat the people as theyneed it.
Not one way fits all, but theword influence matters greatly
in how you are treating them andhow you are working with them
(16:30):
because you are trying toinfluence their actions, not
trying to control what they do.
Erin (16:36):
You, you made a comment on our, our pre conversation and
you said you interviewed someoneor you were Trying to find them
someplace to work.
I'm not certainly the dynamicshere, but and this person was 1
of the most aware smartest.
understood all the dynamics ofthe position that you had ever
(17:00):
interviewed.
Chris (17:01):
Yeah.
Erin (17:02):
And that got me thinking, what does that mean?
So explain to me what thatmeans.
What was I mean, I'm sure youhave spoken to many people.
What does that.
When you think that, what didthis person say?
Chris (17:21):
No, it's what it's what they say and how they say it.
And trust me, we have spoken tothousands of leaders within
senior living and pretty muchmost of the leadership roles
from the community leadership.
To the regional, to the C suite.
So when, when you have that typeof, of data, that those quantity
(17:43):
of conversations, you get apretty good feel pretty quickly,
whether a someone is any good atwhat they do B, whether they
enjoy what they do and not justenjoy in their company, but
enjoy the industry and seewhether they can have an impact
down the road.
And usually we get that type ofgut feeling three to five
(18:05):
minutes into the conversation.
And it's just, it is furthersolidified every minute that we
talk to them every now and thenit takes a step back, but then
it goes usually two or threesteps forward.
So, when I was speaking about anexecutive director, that's one
of the most aware executivedirectors that has a feel for.
(18:26):
Think of baseball.
They call them five toolplayers.
The ones that can hit, run,throw.
they, they, they just have itall.
Well, if you had a five toolexecutive director, it's because
they understand all facets ofthe business and they operate at
an extremely high level.
In all facets of the businesswith resident and family
(18:47):
engagement.
And you and I both know howcritical that is that can make
or break a community with teamdevelopment.
And I'm not just talking theirleaders.
I'm talking all the way down tothe caregiver who's on day two.
Development of the team culturebuilding, and this is where
culture is created.
One again, one-to-oneconversations, not from from the
(19:09):
top down.
So they can build a culture themoment that they're in a
community, but they also havethe other intangibles that are
critical for those type ofroles.
They can manage the budgets.
They have incredible, incredibleawareness of NOI, not for the
sake of cutting, but for thesake of building.
And sometimes you build bycutting.
(19:30):
But they understand the good andbad there.
And then the owner and investorrelations.
Because that's just as critical.
I think long gone are the day ofan investor just giving money
for a community and once a yearasking to see a P& L.
I don't see those at all.
(19:52):
The investor groups that we workwith and we have a couple that
we work on a nationwide basis,they are intimately involved in
the operation.
The success or failure of Thosecommunities and almost all of
them have some type of directinteraction with the executive
directors and the regionalteams, not just at the C level.
(20:15):
So somebody who can do all ofthose things, the development,
the culture building, the familyand resident engagement, the NOI
and the financial side and theinvestor relations, that's
someone who really, reallyexcels in this industry.
And what I love aboutindividuals like that is not
(20:36):
every one of them.
And this might be a shocker foryou, Aaron, but not every, not
every one of them want to justkeep going up the corporate
ladder.
We have one right now, out inthe West who very easily should
be a regional or VPO, but theirheart is in community
leadership.
They've turned down regionalroles because their heart is at
(21:00):
the community level of beingable to see the impact directly
with the residents, with theirfamilies, with the team, and
that drives them because back tothat magic word, that's where
their influence is the greatest.
Erin (21:14):
Yeah, it's, it's true.
I think sometimes we get lostand this profession, is like any
other profession.
Like, I'll just speak for mystory.
It's like, you see people andfriends climbing the ladder and
you think you want that, butthat means climbing the ladder
in this profession is differentthan others because it requires
(21:39):
a lot more commitment,potentially, depending on where
you live.
And you work in this environmentfor many different reasons.
And if it's purpose and impactand, and all those intangible
things, moving up the ladder,you miss.
So much of that.
Chris (22:00):
Yep.
Erin (22:01):
You know, the day everybody
Chris (22:02):
wants to move up when they're young.
Everyone does.
I mean, you come out of your,whether you're coming out of
college or whether you're comingout of high school and going
into the trades, everyone hasthe mindset because it has been
ingrained in their head that youneed to move in advance.
But moving and advancing doesnot have to move up.
It could be within yourself.
It could be with the influencethat you have with others, but
(22:23):
very, very few people understandthat when they're young in their
career, they learn that as timegoes on, as they see others move
up and then move out.
Erin (22:34):
Yeah, I was at a, I'll never forget this.
I was at a leadership meetingand the vice president of HR
made a comment about how a lotof people in this room will be
executive directors forever.
I mean, those weren't the exactwords, but it was just like, and
that's okay.
That's, that's the professionthat we're in.
(22:56):
And that just hit me in such a,like, I felt like the breath had
been taken out of me because Iknew that that was me.
And.
Well, I assumed that was me, butI did not know what, what you
just said, right?
(23:16):
Like growth to me was soexternal and it's embarrassing
to really even think aboutreally, but like growth to me
was so external.
You're moving up the ladder.
You're doing this.
It was never about internalgrowth and that was a
perspective I never, ever had.
And I don't understand why.
(23:38):
It just was never, it wasalways, you got to grow here.
You have to grow here.
You have to grow here.
No one was ever saying to me,well, we got to do some, some
work here.
Chris (23:48):
That's right.
Erin (23:50):
And you know,
Chris (23:50):
growth, growth, growth doesn't come in defined fashion
all the time.
And the story that trickles intomy mind, anytime I think about
that, is literally when Iinterviewed for the job that I
started in June of 1997.
I started June 23rd, to beexact.
Well, on June 5th, I had myfirst interview.
And, Phil, who is the owner andfounder of the firm, he had me
(24:13):
meet with one of the otheraccount executives in the firm
as a peer interview.
And when I sat across the tablefrom that person, the person
looked at my resume, saw someadvancement, saw a lot of sales,
and she basically looked me inthe eye and said, Chris, if you
have any desire to move up inthis company, leave now.
It's never going to happen.
Phil's never going to letanybody do anything other than
(24:35):
what you're doing.
So if you're good with that,come on board.
If you aren't, get out.
But guess what?
At that time, that's what theadvancement opportunities were.
And she tried to beat into myhead, you're never going to do
anything other than what you'regoing to do in the job.
Well, within five years, I hadthree promotions.
(24:57):
None of them were defined.
They were created through myperformance, through what the
organization needed.
So when you talk about growth,and we talk about that in our
industry, there are definedroles of growth.
An executive director can moveto an operations specialist, can
move into a regional role, canmove to a VPO role.
(25:20):
But guess what?
There are other ways to grow.
You could possibly have just asmuch impact and as much meaning
by growing through mentorship.
And that doesn't require travelfour to five days a week.
Leaving your house on Sundaynight or Monday morning, coming
back at midnight on Thursday tohave an office day on Friday.
(25:41):
So growth can come in so manydifferent forms beyond the
defined structure that wetraditionally have in senior
living right now.
Erin (25:49):
It requires a lot of humility.
It requires and that's somethingthat I've realized over time as
well is unraveling thepreconceived notion of what
growth is and the humilitythat's required in that.
And then starting all over andrealizing, Oh, my God, I had
(26:12):
that all wrong.
Chris (26:14):
That's right.
Yeah.
And then,
Erin (26:16):
and then figuring out the path from that, which is, I
really think moving forward asa, as an industry, as a
profession, like that is wherewe need, that's where we need to
be.
Chris (26:28):
That's right.
That's right.
And again, it's going to come indifferent forms.
Yes, I guarantee you five yearsfrom now, they're going to have
the same traditional roles thatwe have, but one or two or three
new type of roles are going tocome about that the leaders
haven't even known are neededbecause it's going to be based
upon the evolution of what'sneeded at the time.
(26:52):
So you have to be willing andable to jump on those
opportunities when they come.
So when you think of it fromthe, the executive director,
I'll stick with that as theexample of them getting passed
over for a regional role.
Because they brought somebody infrom the outside.
Kind of like they're, they'venever, said that they, are going
(27:13):
to do something different thantheir culture is.
Every organization says theypromote from within.
And I truly believe that thevast majority believe that they
need to do that.
But it doesn't always happen.
So if you do get passed overbecause they bring someone in
externally, does not mean Thatyour opportunities for growth in
(27:37):
that organization are goneforever.
But it doesn't mean that youneed to stay there until the
dawn of time to wait to see ifanother one might come.
So I realize I'm talking out ofboth sides of my mouth right
there, but it is true.
You need to let them know youwant opportunities.
But the challenge is thoseopportunities in their minds are
(27:59):
only, well, we have these threeroles.
That's it.
Sometimes you have to createyour own opportunities.
And if you try and try and try,and what you attempt to do, and
you try, attempt to give, andyou attempt to give, and it is
not reciprocated, that's whenyou have to make the decision,
where can I go, where my giving,Can be reciprocated and be
(28:24):
acknowledged.
Erin (28:26):
Don't stay and work in a bunch of negative energy and
resent it.
Chris (28:31):
That's right.
Erin (28:32):
Don't do it.
That's the worst mistake you canmake.
Chris (28:36):
Yeah.
As long as you have tried toinfluence that negative energy.
Yes.
So, again, back to thatinfluence word, culture word,
those fallacies that are outthere.
It starts one to one.
An executive director, adirector of nursing, a sales
director, a regional director,they have the ability to drop
(28:57):
the pebble in the water and havea minimal, a minor, minor
impact.
Minuscule positive influencethat could change the course of
that organization because everycommunity is really its own
organization.
Yes.
They may have a corporatecompany that owns them that runs
them that manages them.
(29:18):
But if you think of everycommunity at its own
organization, that ripple.
As miniscule as it might be, canimpact that organization in a
very short amount of time.
So if you have tried toinfluence it and then it has not
been impacted, that's when youhave to start looking out for
yourself.
Erin (29:37):
Have you always been this positive?
Like forever?
Chris (29:40):
Annoyingly so, unfortunately, my mom was a big
believer in, in, in, in you cando anything.
so I've, I've lived that lifeall, since, since, I mean,
childhood, we moved fromCalifornia to Hawaii because she
thought it'd be better for us.
Well, it was a cool place togrow.
A great place to grow as a kid.
(30:00):
Okay.
And seeing that possibility.
Really has impacted me and Ijust don't let things get me.
Don't get me wrong.
I have bad days I have bad runsI have bad moments But because I
think the way that I do I havethe ability to try to change it
(30:20):
And not be as impacted on thevast roller coaster coaster of
the highs and the lows Becausei've i've worked my mind that I
can control me And if I cancontrol me, as long as I'm
pretty positive, I have anopportunity to do positive
things.
Erin (30:37):
It's really not about the glass being half full or half
empty.
It's just being thankful thatthere's a glass with some liquid
in it.
That's right.
Chris (30:44):
That's right.
And like my coffee cup, it mightbe three quarters empty right
now, but there's a pot outthere.
I could fill it up again.
Erin (30:51):
I know.
Chris (30:52):
Just like my mindset.
I can change my mindset by thethings I put into it.
Erin (30:57):
So, true.
Okay.
Speaking about influence and allthe data that you have to offer
us, I think it's important toask you.
You talked about interviews alittle bit.
What do you think for?
I mean, what are some topinterview questions that you
like to ask and then what wouldbe a good interview question
(31:19):
for, like, an executive directorto ask?
Someone, a manager that's comingin and we can Absolutely.
Chris (31:25):
Yeah, end on that because that's a great
Erin (31:27):
topic.
Chris (31:27):
That's right.
again, I'll talk to this from,from both sides of the coin.
One from the interviewerstandpoint.
Please, for the love of allthings you love, don't ask the
question, tell me aboutyourself.
Because you might be looking forone thing.
You might be looking to see ifthey can tell something in a
(31:48):
short and concise way.
But they may be thinking thatthey, that you want to hear from
the beginning of time and 45minutes later, you've gotten to
where you are right now.
Tell me about yourself does notgive them the proper framework.
When you are interviewing, askquestions that give the proper
framework to get what you'relooking for.
(32:09):
So front load the question witha little bit of setup that will
get you a good, impactfulanswer.
Something as simple as, youknow, in the last 12 months,
what are you most proud of?
How different is that than whatare you most proud of?
And even going even further, I'msure you love your family.
(32:31):
Beyond your family and yourpersonal accolades from a
professional standpoint in thelast 12 months, what are you
most proud of?
And if the response that you getdoes not get, I'm going to talk
about this from either a face toface standpoint or a video
virtual standpoint like thisover the phone, you don't get
this, but very, very fewinterviews today are done via
(32:53):
phone anymore.
They're done either via video orin person.
But when they start answeringthat question, and you do not
see a glimmer in their eye, ifyou don't see them percolate up
a little bit in their chair andget excited and lean in a little
bit, They are probably not goingto have the energy you need if
their story is, well, you know,I'm, I'm most proud of the, the
(33:15):
NOI report that we had lastquarter.
Wow.
What an impactful answer.
That's what you're most proudof.
So energy into that answer thatthat question lets you see their
energy level lets you see theirpersonality.
So that's from the, this oneexample on the hiring manager
side and the interviewer side onthe candidate side, a question
(33:39):
that we always coach ourcandidates to ask them that goes
back to the beginning of timeof, of, of, recruiters and, and
hiring coaches and any articleyou could see going back to the
sixties is, do you have anyconcerns about my ability to do
the job?
Cool.
Well, here's the question that Ilove coaching a candidate to
ask.
(33:59):
And that is, how can you see mebeing successful in the first
three to six months on this job?
And now it is time for thatcandidate to actively watch.
Does that hiring manager go coy?
And do they go, well, I mean, Ithink you could, you could, you
could, you could do a good job.
You are not getting that job,buddy.
(34:20):
If that's the type of answer youget, but if you see the hiring
manager, all of a sudden perkingup a little bit, leaning in a
little bit, and you start seeingtheir voice change a little bit
saying that they can see youbeing impactful here and being
successful because of yourexperience doing this and
because of the story you told meabout that.
And I could really see that yourenergy and passion are going to
(34:41):
really have an impact with, withBob.
When you start getting that typeof reaction from them, not a
guarantee you're going to getthe job, but you've got a pretty
good chance.
Thanks.
And the secondary part benefitof that question is very few
interviews are done in a silo.
Very, very few or hiringdecisions are made by one
(35:03):
person.
So when that interview is done,that hiring manager, that CEO,
that president, that VPO, thatregional, that executive
director interviewing, a, amember of their team, they're
going to talk to somebody else.
And that somebody else is goingto go, how'd the interview go?
And usually the response they'regoing to give is, Oh, it was
(35:25):
good about this.
It was bad about that.
But if you've asked thequestion, how can you see me
being successful on this job inthe first 30 to 60 to 90 days,
first three to six months,whatever timeframe you want to
give.
And they respond in a positiveway.
You have psychologically createdthem answers in their head when
(35:46):
they got to go talk to somebodyelse.
About how the interview went andif they're ingrained in their
head already those words aregoing to come out again So you
were helping yourself if it wentwell So you can go to the
negative any concerns about myability to do the job and you
could try to Swarm your wayaround and try to answer those
concerns Or you could flip tothe positive And go into how can
(36:11):
you see me being successful inthis role?
What type of impact do you thinkI could have based upon the
responses I've given you to beimpactful in this role?
You can choose the words thatmatch your own style, but you're
trying to see what answer theygive you because that will have
an impact on that immediateinterview, on your likelihood of
getting the job, and on themtalking to somebody else.
Erin (36:33):
Yeah, I was helping 1 of my coaching clients get ready
for a, for a big interview andit, it's.
It's convincing people that theyhave the right to ask questions
and that even though you wantthis opportunity, and it's a big
opportunity for you, you have tomake sure that it's the right
(36:54):
opportunity for you and you havecontrol and influence in that
room just as much as they do,because you want to make sure
that it's the right position foryou.
So, how we word the questions.
is important, how we think aboutthem, and, and the knowledge
going into the interview.
But as a candidate, you have theopportunity to ask questions
(37:18):
too.
And that's an experience.
Chris (37:20):
You are mandated to ask questions, in my opinion.
I have never hired, again, beendoing this for 27 years, we've
had a firm as large as 38people.
I've never hired a recruiter,when I ask them, do you have any
questions?
And they say, no, I think you'veanswered everything.
Never.
So you are mandated to asksomething.
(37:42):
In that interview, because yourquestions show your interest.
Your questions show your, your,your thoughtfulness.
Your questions show yourpreparedness for the interview.
If you cannot go into aninterview without one or two
questions that you could askthem, you are not going to get
that job.
Even if it's a question that itdoesn't matter if there's
(38:02):
already answered.
Hey, when you were talking aboutblank, could you elaborate on
that a little bit?
That's a question that itdoesn't matter what it is.
If they truly were the mostmagical interviewer and they
answered every single thing thatyou, you could have asked, you
had a list of 15 things you weregetting ready to ask him about.
And they, Oh, they checkmarkedall 15 of them.
(38:25):
You could ask them to elaborateon something.
Never ever leave an interviewwithout asking something.
You could tell I get a littlepassionate about that.
Erin (38:34):
Yeah, well, it's true.
I mean, I, I saw, A post, and Idon't even remember where, and
it was on LinkedIn, and it wasjust about how, you know,
there's not a lot of training oninterviewing questions for
leaders Yeah, right.
And so a conversation like, thisis just so eye opening and now
(38:54):
we have lots of opportunities tofind that education for
ourselves.
The problem is, do we have thetime because time and attention
honestly, inside a community, aleader inside the community time
and attention is your greatestasset.
And so how you choose to spendthat is really, really important
because there's not a lot oftime.
but I think.
(39:14):
Interviewing knowing what youwant and need as a community and
you as a leader, right?
Your strengths, your weaknesses,what the community needs at the
moment we knowing that mindsetboundary and energies are
important.
And you just told us what tolook for to see if the energies
match.
Hello.
That's so powerful.
You know, like, these arethings.
(39:36):
These are the non verbal, the,you know, soft skills that are
actually probably some of theskills you need the most that
are not necessarily brought toour attention as much.
So very, very, very, veryvaluable content.
Chris (39:53):
Well, it's so far beyond skills, duties and
responsibilities.
The duties and responsibilitiesand your skills are what got you
to the interview.
Beyond that, if the interview iseffective, that's five minutes
of the conversation.
Now it's about, are you theright fit?
(40:13):
Are you not the right fit?
And how could you be the rightfit?
But guess what?
This is gone are the days ofthis being a one sided
interview.
This is not a matter of thehiring manager asking questions
and the candidate answering,hoping to get the job.
Questions are asked off bothsides.
(40:35):
And visually, that really looksreally strange that I'm playing
with my hands right there.
But I do it on purpose, becauseit is a two way street.
Just as much as the intervieweris interviewing you to see if
you are the right fit, andwhether you, if they think you
could have an impact on the job,As the candidate, you are
interviewing them to determineif is this the right
(40:55):
organization, is this the rightleader, is this the right team,
is this the right culture, fromthe words they say of their
culture at least, that where Ifeel I could be a fit, and where
I could have an impact.
If all you are looking for is ajob, you can get one.
But odds are, you're going to belooking for a job nine months,
(41:17):
twelve months, fifteen monthsdown the road.
If you're looking for a placewhere you can impact, that's
where you have a chance for somelongevity.
And longevity is unfortunate inour day and age now.
Again, I started in 1997.
In 1997, the average tenure of aprofessional, this is not senior
living, this is across theboard, the professional defined
as a college, degreed,individual or someone in
(41:40):
management and above if theydidn't have a college degree.
The average tenure is 4.
8 years pre COVID.
So I have to throw out the COVIDyears because the only reliable
number they've not come out witha more reliable number since
COVID.
So I'm gonna go off that timeframe of pre 2020.
The average tenure was 2.
7 years.
(42:01):
Add our industry to the mix.
average 10 years, not that Ibet.
And the clinical side, 15 monthsis good tenure and that is so
sad to say.
On the sales side, you have theoutliers, the five and 10 years
sales directors, but the norm is12 months to two years.
(42:23):
Executive directors is a littlemore, the good ones two to five
years.
So it is sad that 10 year hasdropped so low, but that is the
reality.
And unfortunately, there arestill hiring managers who will
only look at candidates who havefive plus years with their
community.
Well, guess what?
In any given market, there mightbe one or two of those.
(42:45):
And one might have been the onethat you just let go.
So we have to get beyond thewhat was and deal with the what
is.
And that is a two way street aswell.
So back to that interview thing,it is no longer a one sided
interview.
It is a two sided interview.
So a hiring manager can never beoffended by a question being
asked that might ruffle theirfeathers a little bit.
(43:06):
Such as, I've been doing mychecking.
The reputation of theorganization in this market Has
not been that great.
I'm sure it is across thecountry, but in this market,
it's not that great.
What are you guys doing tochange that?
Because what you're doing isgoing to impact my ability,
should I be chosen to hire theright associates and right team
(43:28):
members to make this organ, thiscommunity great again.
Very few candidates are afraidto ruffle feathers like that,
but boy, do you change the tableset up when you do so no longer
are you on one side of the tablethere on the other side of the
table.
Now you've brought the chairstogether.
In a virtual sense.
Now you guys are talking aboutthis together.
(43:49):
And if you have a hiring managerwho doesn't like you asking
those questions, that's probablynot the right organization for
you.
Erin (43:54):
No.
Yeah.
I mean, because people willinstantly feel threatened by
those questions.
And now granted, we have, as a,as a candidate, we have a
responsibility to say themappropriately.
Chris (44:04):
With the right tone and inflection.
Absolutely.
You say that in an accusatoryway.
Dude, I hear your organizationsucks.
What are you doing about it?
That won't go over very well.
Erin (44:15):
Yes, tonality is important, but it is a very
valuable question.
And if you're looking for aleader, that signifies that they
are a leader.
Chris (44:24):
That's right.
And that they're in the game,that they are not just looking
for a job, that they're lookingfor a place they can have
impact.
Erin (44:30):
And impact starts with influence.
Chris (44:32):
That's right.
And influence, you start withwhat you think and how you
think.
Start, again, it comes back toyou.
It all, that vicious circle, itall comes back to you.
What you think, what you say,and what you do.
Erin (44:44):
Yeah, I mean, it really does.
I mean, I talk to people andthey instantly will say things
that I can, you know, of course,you hear it.
Nobody wants to work anymore.
I can't get anybody to doanything.
You know, things along thatline, and there are elements of
truth to that, but the greatestdivide is generational, and it
(45:09):
is certain people not wanting tochange who they are to meet the
people that they say that don'twant to work anymore.
Chris (45:16):
Yeah, and the generational side, it does have
a little bit of challenge to me,because they're saying, oh, no
millennial or Gen X er, or Gen Zer wants to, wants to work hard.
That's baloney.
Erin (45:30):
Let me tell you,
Chris (45:34):
yes,
Erin (45:36):
it does
Chris (45:36):
not matter what generation pocket somebody
follows.
And I think what now we're inthe generation alpha is the new
workforce.
And now they're going to go offthe Greek alphabet for the rest
of the generations to make iteasy.
Well, it's just a band of time.
I have met incredibly hard.
working baby boomers.
I've met some incredibly lazybaby boomers.
(45:59):
I've met some amazing Gen Xers.
I've met some lazy Gen Xers.
But you know what?
They can be influenced and theiractions can change if led the
right way.
And if not, they're illustratingwhat seat they want to have on
the bus.
And that seat is the bus stopoutside of the bus.
(46:20):
Have you ever heard of theanalogy, being, have it be on
the right seat on the bus.
Erin (46:24):
Yes.
Chris (46:24):
Okay.
So Jim Collins, just for therest of your audience, in case
they haven't heard it.
Jim Collins, the renowned authorfrom a, from a business book
standpoint has written a coupleof incredible books, but one of
the most impactful ones of thelate 20th century, beginning of
the 21st century is the bookGood to Great.
And in that book, he talks aboutyou have to have the right
(46:45):
people on the bus, but then hetakes it one step further.
You have to have the rightpeople on the bus, but you got
to make sure they're in theright seat.
Erin (46:52):
Right.
Yeah.
Chris (46:54):
And to our discussion here, we've talked about who's
driving that bus.
That's the leader who's driving.
That bus has an impact on wherethe people behind them are
sitting.
And they're impacted by how theyact and they are impacting them
by what they recommend beingdone.
Now, I'm not going back to thegreat school days of the bus
(47:15):
driver, yelling and screaming atthe top of their lungs, sit down
or you won't be on my bustomorrow.
Stop throwing that Sally.
I'm not talking those daysbecause we aren't dealing with
kids.
We're dealing with adults But wecould lead them to change their
actions We can take someone whomight sit in the back of the bus
(47:36):
because they want to beDisruptive to within a couple of
months wanting to sit at thefront of the bus and help
everybody out By how we leadthem.
We have true, true impact onthem.
But just to close that analogyout, if you've tried to impact
them, you've tried to lead, andyou've tried to get that person
who might have been lazy, andyou've tried to work with them,
(47:59):
and they just won't make thosechange with all the coaching and
guidance you try to give them,there's still a seat for them.
It's just at the bus stop.
Not on your bus anymore.
Erin (48:10):
Like you said, everybody has a seat, but there's a button
for every seat.
Chris (48:14):
There's a butt for every seat and great organizations
have lots of options.
I'll stay away from the buttanalogy there.
Okay.
But they have a lot of options,but organizations that are
challenged.
They still have options too,because people want to have the
opportunity to impact.
People want to have theopportunity to change.
(48:36):
The messaging just has to beshifted a little bit.
You can't blow smoke up them andjust say, we're the greatest
organization out there.
We have incredible communities.
If that's not the case in thatmarket, be honest with them.
Hey, we've had some challenges.
Those challenges have beendirectly impacted by the leaders
that we've had in thisorganization.
We are working to make thatchange.
(48:56):
And that's starting with usfinding the right blank.
Is that you that is completelydifferent than me trying to blow
smoke and telling me telling youthat we're a great organization
and you should be honored andprivileged to come to work for
us if I were to be humble and ifI were to be vulnerable and say,
we've had challenges and we'reneeding to change the team
because of the challenges.
(49:18):
I'm showing a littlevulnerability and what you would
like to work for someone whoshows a little bit of
vulnerability versus.
Oh, it's not my fault.
I don't know anything aboutthat.
I'm gonna stick my head in thesand a little more.
So there are, there is the rightperson for every role.
There's the right seat for everybutt, to bring it back to that
fun analogy.
Erin (49:37):
Yeah.
I still am energetic.
Like, you still bring theenergy, like, You should get on
stages and speak to people.
You know what I mean?
Like,
Chris (49:48):
I appreciate that.
And I, I have been blessed tohave those opportunities, but I,
and I'm sure more opportunitieslike that will come, but I'm
just as energized by you and Ihaving a one on one conversation
like this because of the mediumwe're doing it.
Yeah, you and I don't know theimpact we're going to have from
this conversation.
(50:09):
And the greatest story I cantell you about that of the
impact of these types ofconversations in in a podcast
form.
I don't want to call it aninterview in a conversation form
is we don't know who's going tolisten and the impact is going
to have.
I went to a conference that,that we were, I believe, at the
same one together.
And, I helped put on a 5k funrun for the group.
(50:33):
And I went for a pre run to mapout the course, to make sure
that I had the right turns, Iwasn't sending people in the
wrong direction, or, or makingsure that they can get back to
where we started.
And somebody came on that prerun with me.
And in that run, The personliterally cited back to me some
of the things I had said in apodcast interview and the, the
(50:58):
heart swelling, the jaw dropthat I had at that moment is we
don't have a clue who's going tolisten to this, whether it's one
person And it's my wife whohappens to be the only listener
to this and trust me that's nothappening.
Okay She hears me talk enough Wedon't know the one person who
might listen to thisconversation and they hear one
(51:20):
thing that I said Or one thingthat you said that changes their
course So On that little pre 5krun and that individual reciting
back to me some of the thingsthat I said, and they shared the
impact that it had on them andhow they shifted their mindset
and their actions that willstick with me forever.
(51:43):
And that's why I love sure.
It's cool being on stage.
I think the largest one I'vebeen on had 10, 000 people on
the in the audience, but I lovethese one on one conversations.
Just as much because the impactcan be just as exponential.
Erin (51:58):
Yeah, I mean, like, I feel just I feel joy and possibility
and I don't know.
I hope our listeners feel thesame way because we've given
them a lot to think about a lotof tactical information to try
and to understand that.
You are in control.
(52:18):
You can create your story.
It doesn't matter what happenedin the past.
When you own your story, you cancreate your future.
And you've shown us that.
and that's really important.
So thank you.
Thank you so much.
Well, thank you.
Chris (52:32):
I want to acknowledge you for a second, Aaron, because
this is not easy.
I know the effort you have toput in to put together a podcast
like this, to take the time andenergy, A, to find people who
are willing to talk, B, to putit in a professional format and
C, put it out there.
You are putting yourself on theline every time you put it in a
(52:52):
podcast out there and for you tohave the stick to it ness to
keep on going.
94 percent of the podcasts thathave been created are done
within five episodes.
So the fact that you are goingon a couple of years now, and
I've been watching all along,even some of those crazy ones
with your Dion glasses.
So thank you for sticking withthis because I know the effort
(53:18):
and energy and time you have toput into this.
And you are not doing this forthe volumes of cash that are
sitting behind you becauseyou've put this together.
Right.
You're doing it.
Yes.
It's because of your willingnessand wanting to learn and wanting
to give back.
So thank you very much for whatyou've done.
Erin (53:37):
Thank you.
Thank you for acknowledgingthat.
It does take work.
I do love it.
And it's for what you say.
It's the impact.
It's it's the impact it's for mylearning.
and it's also for other peoplelike me who, who don't get the
opportunity to meet Chris.
But can now hear how he impactspeople, which is amazing.
Chris (53:59):
So I appreciate that.
Erin (54:01):
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
And as always to my listeners,aspire for more for you.
Thank you for joining us today.
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