December 10, 2025 • 59 mins
What if a theme park could change the way you lead your life? We sit down with Dr. Jeffrey Barnes—Dr. Disneyland—to explore how Walt Disney transformed setbacks into a story-driven blueprint for vision, risk, and relentless execution. From a disappointing first visit to a deep dive into Walt’s life, Jeffrey traces the moment he realized Disneyland isn’t just rides—it’s a living narrative that invites each of us to become the hero of our own story.
We walk through the four C’s Walt championed—confidence, consistency, curiosity, courage—and how they show up in real decisions: betting on synchronized sound in Steamboat Willie, greenlighting Snow White during the Great Depression, and building a park no one believed in. Jeffrey breaks down why leaders need vision, not just management, and shares how Roy Disney’s caution and Walt’s boldness collided to create something bigger than either brother could do alone. You’ll hear how Fantasyland’s design targets pure emotions—fear, wonder, humor—to shape choices, and how Main Street USA blends memory and momentum to set a powerful opening scene.
Expect practical takeaways. Jeffrey reveals the habit strategy that helped him finish his book during a brain tumor battle, the tiny detail Walt personally fixed with a paintbrush to uphold standards, and a snack-sized innovation that went global: Doritos, born from leftover tortillas at a Disneyland restaurant. We also tackle Epcot’s original city vision, what changed after Walt’s death, and how the parks still reflect America’s evolving culture while keeping his spirit alive.
If you’re craving a nudge to start, this is your 20-foot headlight and your next gas station. Hit play, then tell us the small step you’ll take today toward your bigger dream. Subscribe, share with a fellow Disney lover or leader, and leave a review so more curious listeners can find the show.
Guest Links
Beyond the Wisdom of Walt Book
Assorted Conversations Links
Assorted Conversations Facebook Page
- Stay up-to-date on podcast happenings and share them with your friends
Assorted Conversations Podcast Facebook Community
- A collaborative and supportive community for you to engage with us, our guests and other listeners
- Share your passion, network and connect as we all pursue what makes us happy.
- Exclusive behind-the-scenes content and info
- Special online events for community members
Follow us on Twitter
Follow us on Instagram
Support Assorted Conversations on Buy Me a Coffee
Say hello or ask a question: aconvospod@gmail.com
Credits
Music Credit: True Living by Patrick Moore
Royalty free music license purchased at soundotcom.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_07 (00:10):
Everyday people following their passions.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
That's probably like like one of the highlights of my
life so far.
Just being able to be creativelike that.
Something I always want.
SPEAKER_04 (00:22):
And then I decided to get another hive, and that
turned into a lot of hives.
SPEAKER_03 (00:28):
As long as I can do that, I want to be a good
citizen.
Help people out.
SPEAKER_07 (00:33):
Putting themselves out there, taking chances, and
navigating challenges along theway.
SPEAKER_06 (00:40):
I I absolutely identified with having stage
ride because, you know, anytimeI went on stage, I just felt
like I was having a hot attack.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Very first laugh, very first practice session, I
crashed, turned the car upsidedown, made a spectacle of
myself, and I got back on thathorse and started riding again.
SPEAKER_07 (00:56):
As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them
joy.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
As long as people are having a good time and I
have the opportunity to putsmiles on people's faces, I I
love what I do.
SPEAKER_04 (01:08):
I have done things that I never thought I could do.
To have somebody tell me howreal it looks and how, you know,
from their actual memory,because that's telling me I've
captured what I was trying toget.
SPEAKER_07 (01:24):
Welcome to a sorted conversation.
I'm your host, Helen.
We are back at it this week, andI am talking all things Disney
because I have the opportunityto chat with one of the foremost
experts on Walt Disney and theDisney dynasty.
(01:47):
From motivation and leadershiplessons demonstrated by Walt
Disney to how this week's guesthas researched, applied, and
continues to share how we canall become better dreamers and
doers.
And there's a bonus piece, alittle factoid of how Doritos
were invented.
(02:08):
And yes, Disney was involved.
So take a listen to this week'sepisode, and I'll see you on the
other side.
Today's guest is someone whobrings imagination to life, both
in the classroom and beyond.
He's a best-selling author,storyteller, leadership expert,
and one of the foremostauthorities on the spirit and
(02:30):
legacy of Disneyland.
He's known around the world asDr.
Disneyland because he has spentyears studying the park's
history, design, and philosophy,uncovering timeless lessons
about creativity, leadership,customer experience, and the
magic that happens when boldideas meet relentless curiosity.
(02:53):
It is my absolute pleasure towelcome to Astoric Conversations
Dr.
Jeffrey Barnes.
Hi, Dr.
Jeffrey.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
Well, hello.
And oh my gosh, I'm so excitedto be not just with you today,
but of course, your wonderfulaudience.
How are you?
SPEAKER_07 (03:10):
I am well.
I am well.
Thank you so much for taking thetime.
Absolutely.
The fascination with Disney andWalt Disney, where did it start?
How did it start for you?
SPEAKER_03 (03:22):
Great question.
And it's not a one-shot answer.
So, you know, as a kid growingup in the panhandle of Florida,
we went to Walt Disney Worldthree years after it opened.
I was 10 years old.
And I can remember thinking,standing on Main Street, that if
there were anything such asheaven on this side of living,
(03:45):
that had to be it.
And so I just, you know,instantly became the kid.
If we were going back foranother vacation, or if there
was like a school trip or ascouting trip, what I tended to
be like the most excited aboutgoing to Walt Disney World.
And this is before Epcot and youknow Animal Kingdom and
Hollywood studies.
(04:05):
It was like it was just like, itwas just like, wow, like this is
like amazing, and this isperfect, and this is the way the
world should be.
My parents had gone toDisneyland here in Southern
California back in 1960, a fewyears before I was born, and
they talked about that you knowtrip in you know mystical sorts
(04:26):
of ways.
And so when I moved toCalifornia and finally made my
way down to Los Angeles, becausewhen I moved to California, I
was up in Northern California.
Like I couldn't wait to get toDisneyland because this is the
one my parents had gone to, andyou know, this was the original,
and this was the only one Walthad ever actually walked in.
(04:47):
And I was so disappointed.
I I was so devastated.
And a lot of it was you know theexpectations of my childhood.
A good bit of it had to do withjust the fact that I was grossly
unprepared.
I I walked in at 11 o'clock on aSunday in August, and so of
course it was crowded, and ofcourse it was hot, and I'd seen
(05:10):
all of the commercials for thenewest, latest, greatest
attraction, which was Star Toursin Tomorrowland.
And so I couldn't wait to get toStar Tours fast enough.
And I asked a cast member, hey,where is Star Tours?
Because they didn't have it atMagic Kingdom, this was new.
And they were like, Well, you'rein the right place for the ride,
wrong place for the line.
(05:31):
And we got redirected to the endof Main Street, waited three
hours before we could experienceour first Disneyland attraction.
And of course, by the time we'reoff the ride, it's even hotter,
it's even more crowded.
I left that night hatingeverything about Disneyland.
(05:51):
And if you had told me then thatI'd be doing what I'm doing now,
I would have said you'reabsolutely nuts.
But and I I use that word a lotbecause people need to realize
you know, the past doesn't driveyour story, the wake doesn't
drive the boat, right?
You can always put a butt andmove forward in a new and
(06:14):
different and better direction.
I stayed in California longenough to realize this park
really means something to localsin a way that I didn't
experience as a resident ofFlorida.
And I was super curious.
You know, Walt once was asked,what does it take to be
successful?
And he said it comes down tofour C's, uh confidence, uh
(06:36):
consistency, curiosity, andcourage.
And out of those four, I I gotyou know a double or triple dose
of curiosity.
And so I just had to know well,what is it about Disneyland that
everyone else seems to love andand I hate and I had this you
know awful experience.
So I started doing research.
(06:57):
That's when I discovered WaltDisney wasn't born successful,
Walt Disney had a very difficultand impoverished childhood, Walt
Disney had a difficultrelationship with his dad.
Walt Disney had more failuresthan successes.
Walt Disney, when he wasbuilding his dream for
(07:18):
Disneyland at the ripe old ageof 53, did not have a friend in
a wor in the world.
Nobody believed in it, toinclude his own wife and his own
brother.
And I think most importantly, hebuilt the park for the purpose
of telling stories.
You see, Walt didn't want to beremembered for Mickey Mouse,
Snow White, or even Disneyland,Walt wanted to be remembered as
(07:39):
a storyteller.
And when Disneyland opened in1955, there were 2,000 amusement
parks across the country.
None of them told stories.
They were all parks that engagedus physically, but nothing that
sparked our imaginations orchallenged us mentally.
And so Walt wanted to dosomething completely new and
(08:01):
completely different.
Well, I was in grad schoolwriting a doctoral dissertation
on narrative or story criticism.
I love story.
And so Walt's desire to beremembered as a storyteller, but
then build a park that toldstories.
Oh my god, I fell in love.
I just fell in love with thatidea.
(08:22):
And so three years after myfirst trip, I returned seeing it
through the lens of A, Walt'sstory, and then B, his desire to
tell stories.
And it it was it waslife-changing.
Instantly became an obsessionfor me.
I I can remember coming home inJune of 91 and telling people,
(08:47):
I'm going to write a Disneylandbook one day.
And this is the completeopposite of I hate this place
and I'm never going back.
I just don't get it.
SPEAKER_07 (08:57):
So it really was that story connection for you
that pulled it all together.
SPEAKER_03 (09:01):
Right.
And and and the real piece, weall love story.
Uh story's right, we read books,it's why we go to the movies.
It's a story that brings us backto the Disney parks over and
over and over again.
As human beings, we are wiredfor story.
The challenge is most of us arechasing the wrong part of the
story.
We're looking for the happilyever after ending.
(09:24):
That's not what makes a greatstory.
Every great story requiresconflict.
And Walt's story was filled withconflict.
We see it in his childhood.
We see it with the bankruptcy.
We see it with the loss of hisfirst successful character.
We see it when he's doing SnowWhite, the world's first
full-length animated featurefilm.
(09:46):
We see it again with Disneyland.
It's the conflict that makes thestory interesting.
And if you've got any listenersright now who are bored with
their life, it's because they'rechoosing not to do hard and
difficult things.
SPEAKER_07 (10:02):
Yeah, it's funny because you know, I can think
back in my like after graduatingfrom college and being in the
workforce for a couple years,and I can remember saying, I
need a bone rattling change.
I need something to shake thingsup because I'm bored, I'm
getting too complacent, and I'mnot being challenged.
(10:22):
And I I can I can look at maybeonce every 10 years, I have
something like that.
Now, this past year, completelydifferent story.
I've had enough bone rattlingchange to last a lifetime.
SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
But yeah, and so what typically happens is we
accept comfort, we accept easy,we accept boredom, and then
something outside of our controlhappens that forces us to change
and forces us to alter thestory, right?
(10:53):
And so my passion is to getpeople to choose the better
story rather than wait and haveit forced upon them.
SPEAKER_07 (11:02):
Wow.
So at what point during yourresearch, when you when you
declared I'm writing aDisneyland book someday, at what
point during your research didpeople start calling you Dr.
Disneyland?
How did that come about?
SPEAKER_03 (11:17):
So it wasn't instant because A, I'm living up in
Northern California, so I'm notable to go to the park on any
sort of regular basis.
And then two, it's great to havethis wonderful idea.
You know, Walt dreamed ofbuilding a place where parents
and children could have funtogether for 20 plus years.
But that didn't mean he likeinstantly started doing it the
(11:38):
second the idea came to him.
I didn't know how to write abook.
I didn't know how to publish abook, I didn't know how to
market or sell a book.
It was a nice thought.
And every now and again, youknow, I would do more reading
and do more research, and youknow, I'd write a sentence here
and you know, try to scribbleout a paragraph there.
(11:59):
But it it wasn't anything that,you know, was like this is going
to happen no matter what, untilA, I moved to Southern
California and realized inworking with struggling
students.
I had a 22-year career in highereducation.
And in Southern California,there's only two things that we
(12:21):
can all agree with, becauseeveryone's from everywhere else,
right?
We all love In N Out Burger, andwe all go to Disneyland.
And I was working with studentswho had the ability to be
successful in college, but theywere just choosing not to go to
class.
They were choosing not to do thework, they were choosing not to
take the exams.
And so I'm struggling to likefind a way to teach them success
(12:45):
lessons in a way that they'reactually going to listen.
And I realized that every lessonI needed to teach these students
were right there at Disneylandand right there in Walt's life
and in Walt's story.
And so I pitched this idea ofteaching a college course on the
(13:05):
history of Disneyland, whichyes, was going to be great for
the students.
If I'm a hundred percent honest,it was also a way for me to
write the book without having towrite the book because I had
been teaching I don't know howmany different courses for two
decades at this point.
I knew I didn't know how towrite a book, but I knew how to
(13:28):
teach another college course.
And so teaching the collegecourse was a way of scratching
that itch without getting moreuncomfortable than I was like
really ready to do.
SPEAKER_07 (13:40):
It's a fantastic book.
I've listened to it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:42):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_07 (13:43):
I I don't think you narrate it.
You didn't narrate it, did you?
SPEAKER_03 (13:47):
So I love the narrator, individual by the name
of Al Kessel, who's a hugeDisney fan, read it and reached
out to me and said, I love yourbook.
I'd be honored to do thenarration.
And he is a full-time, you know,audible narrator.
And as I approached thisproject, my thinking was I
(14:08):
wanted it to be at the highestquality possible because that
was the mindset Walt had when hewas building Disneyland, right?
I didn't want to just record myown book using my iPhone in my
like I wanted it to be, youknow, at the highest quality
possible.
And so I was more than happy tooutsource that.
(14:28):
And yeah, people people love thework that Al did.
SPEAKER_07 (14:32):
Yeah, I there's so much great information.
I mean, you had to write it tobegin with.
There's so much greatinformation in there, and all
the little anecdotes and thestories and the little passport
stamps at the end of eachchapter.
I I mean they're there reallyare just pulling the lessons
out.
I could definitely say I'm acorporate trainer.
(14:54):
Um, so I could definitely seethe key takeaways in those in
those passport stamps.
It is a phenomenal book.
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Well, thank you.
And that's, you know, as youknow from having listened to the
book, uh I taught the collegecourse, and in the middle of
teaching that after the firstlecture, I get diagnosed with a
life-threatening brain tumor.
And they wanted to operateimmediately.
Uh, recovery was two months,which would have canceled the
(15:22):
course.
And I refused because the coursewas never about the amusement
park.
It was really about challengingthe students to recognize that
in order to be successful,you've got to embrace conflict,
you've got to overcomeobstacles, you've got to do hard
things.
And so that summer was anopportunity for me to not just
teach the course, but to livethe course.
(15:46):
And on the other side of thesurgery, spoiler alert, I lived.
On the other side of thesurgery, I'm like, it was great
to teach the class, but if thathad been it, I would have been
disappointed that I never wrotethe book.
SPEAKER_05 (16:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
And so that's how the book actually happened.
It took conflict, it took megetting sick.
And what was 20 years of, oh, Idon't know how, woe is me, no
one will publish it, no one willbuy it.
Start to finish 142 days.
SPEAKER_07 (16:22):
Wow.
So sometimes just shutting up,rolling up your sleeves and
getting it done.
SPEAKER_03 (16:27):
But again, it's on the other side of conflict,
right?
True, yep.
So I guarantee you, everybodylistening to us today have had
something, probably multiplesomething, happen to them that
they wish had not happened.
Right.
Right?
SPEAKER_07 (16:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
It's not about what happened, it's how you respond
to what happens.
And so I'm glad I got sick.
I'm grateful that I got a braintumor because it forced me to do
what I had said I had beenwanting to do for two decades,
only now I got over myself, satdown and did the work.
(17:05):
And now it's the only work thatI do.
SPEAKER_07 (17:07):
Yeah, yeah.
That that is that is fantastic.
And yes, it does take a bonerattling change sometimes just
to like shake the dust out andand get going.
SPEAKER_04 (17:19):
Correct.
SPEAKER_07 (17:20):
So through your research and in writing the book
and learning about Walt Disney,what leadership principle from
Walt do you believe is the mostneeded?
SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
Vision.
SPEAKER_07 (17:31):
Vision?
SPEAKER_03 (17:32):
Absolutely.
I I I work a lot with leaders.
I still go back to my formeruniversity and spend time in the
summer mentoring uh PhDleadership students.
The number one trait of aleader, not a manager, because
those are very, very different,and we get them mixed up too
often.
SPEAKER_05 (17:51):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (17:52):
But the number one trait of a leader is having the
ability to see where we need togo, what we need to do, a future
that doesn't yet exist.
And then becoming so clear andso passionate about that vision
(18:15):
that you create rabid followerswho are willing to go with you
into that unknown future.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
So again, like and so Walt'svision for animation, his vision
for synchronizing sound inSteamboat Willie, his vision for
a full-length animated featurefilm, his vision for the
(18:39):
amusement park industry andturning them into parks that
tell stories.
You know, people loved that somuch that they were willing to
follow him to the ends of theearth to help make that happen.
SPEAKER_07 (18:52):
Right.
Right.
And I and some of the otherthings I had read and learned
about Walt Disney myself, it washis his his leadership, and that
yeah, he was the one holding theflashlight, but he was staring
into the abyss, and everybodyelse was right behind him.
SPEAKER_03 (19:10):
Correct.
Well, and and sometimessometimes he held the flashlight
alone, and people eventuallycame alongside him when they
realized that despite the factthat no one else believed, Walt
believed and was willing to moveforward into that abyss with the
(19:34):
flashlight alone.
SPEAKER_07 (19:36):
What what was something that he he led the
charge by himself first beforeour folks joined him?
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
So uh let me back up a little bit.
Walt's first studio was LafagramStudio in Kansas City, Missouri.
And he he did a couple ofdifferent projects there, but by
and large, he was creatinganimation advertisements for.
For a local dentist.
Studio lasted 18 months.
And after only a year and ahalf, he it's it's bankrupt, and
(20:08):
Walt Disney is homeless.
And his older brother Roy, whois in Los Angeles recovering
from tuberculosis post-World WarI, encourages him to come out to
California.
And so Walt boards a train inKansas City with$40, a single
suitcase, and a one-way ticket.
And then together he joinsforces with his older brother
(20:33):
Roy, and they form the DisneyBrothers Studio that today is
the largest entertainmentcompany anywhere in the world.
I tell people all the time thedifference between the first
studio that went bankrupt in 18months and the second studio
that is the world's largestentertainment company today, the
difference between the two isnot Walt.
(20:56):
The difference is Roy.
If Walt had had his way, hewould have driven the second
studio into bankruptcy and offthe financial and physical cliff
all over again.
Now, having said all of that, ifit weren't for Walt, Roy would
have spent the rest of his lifeselling vacuum cleaners door to
door here in SouthernCalifornia.
(21:18):
They needed each other.
Right.
And because they came atbusiness from two very different
perspectives, Walt's a visionaryand creative leader.
Roy is a manager.
They clashed a lot.
Roy didn't necessarily thinkthat they needed to spend all of
the money that Walt was willingto spend to synchronize the
(21:41):
sound for Steamboat Willie.
Steamboat Willie was not thefirst Mickey Mouse cartoon.
There were two prior cartoonsthat same year, but Steamboat
Willie only got distributionbecause of the uniqueness of the
synchronized sound.
When they go to do Snow White,it's in the middle of the Great
Depression.
(22:02):
Nobody has any money, except forWalt, because of the popularity
of the Mickey Mouse shortcartoons.
Walt realizes, however, if hedoesn't own the feature film,
then eventually the shortcartoons are going to go away.
When's the last time you saw acartoon before a full-length
anime before a full-lengthfeature film?
(22:22):
It's been a while, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Walt was right.
Well, that film was going tocost millions upon millions of
dollars.
And at one point, as they'regetting deeper and deeper into
debt, Walt gets an anonymousnote from someone in the studio
that says stick to shorts,meaning stick to the shorter
(22:42):
cartoons, Walt.
And years later, he would cometo find out it was his older
brother Roy.
SPEAKER_07 (22:48):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_03 (22:49):
And when he was building Disneyland, Roy and
Lily wanted nothing to do withit.
And Roy even called up the banksand said, if my brother comes
down there to talk to you aboutthat damn amusement park, I need
to know about it.
But there's that word again.
The first person to spend thefirst dollar, that's all it
(23:11):
costs to get into Disneylandback in 1955.
The first person to spend thefirst dollar to purchase the
first ticket into the park wasWalt's older brother Roy.
SPEAKER_07 (23:20):
What a great story.
SPEAKER_03 (23:22):
So he came around, right?
Yeah.
Because Walt did not give up.
So you don't have to convincepeople that you're right.
You just have to convince peoplethat you believe that you're
right.
SPEAKER_07 (23:37):
That's a great lesson.
I was going to ask you, sinceDisneyland was created at a
point in time where it wasn'tsupposed to be successful.
SPEAKER_03 (23:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_07 (23:46):
What what can leaders or and and even somebody
that is just looking for betterself-leadership of themselves?
What can folks learn from thatboldness and resilience that
that Walt had?
SPEAKER_03 (24:00):
The courage to do new and different things.
And to recognize that, you know,the marketplace isn't looking
for another version of whatever.
Right?
You're only going to genuinelymove the needle if you take
risks and create things that donot currently exist.
(24:25):
And that's scary.
Yes.
Right?
But but that's true leadership.
I mean, look at Henry Ford.
You know, Henry Ford was famousfor saying if I had asked people
what they wanted, they wouldhave said a faster horse.
He didn't care what the peoplewanted.
(24:46):
He knew what they needed andgave it to them.
Walt was the exact same way.
We didn't know we needed MickeyMouse or synchronized sound or
full-length animated featurefilm or park that told stories.
He gave it to us anyway and tookon all of the risk as a result.
SPEAKER_07 (25:04):
If you had to choose one habit or one mindset that
Walt had that separated him fromhis contemporaries at that point
in time, what do you think itis?
SPEAKER_03 (25:17):
Well, I'll I'll take it a step further.
It's not so much that itseparated him from his
contemporaries as much as itseparates him from any and
everybody.
So I I believe that we are allcloser to Walt Disney than we
realize.
So if you weren't bornsuccessful, you're like Walt
Disney.
If you had a challengingchildhood, you're like Walt
(25:39):
Disney.
If you have a difficultrelationship with one of your
parents, you're like WaltDisney.
If you've ever failed, you'relike Walt Disney.
Walt, however, never gave up.
His wife Lily once said, I'venever seen Walt beaten at
anything.
Isn't that an amazingcompliment?
(26:02):
Yeah.
Like can you imagine yourpartner saying, Yeah, boy, you
know, he or she took some licksand you know, things got tough,
but wow, I I just never saw thembeaten at anything.
And then Walt was willing totake action over and over and
over again.
Into the abyss, I love thatword.
(26:23):
And and sometimes not even witha flashlight.
So, you know, the idea forDisneyland came when Walt was
sitting on a park bench atGriffith Park in downtown Los
Angeles, and his two youngdaughters are riding the
merry-gound, and he's sitting onthis bench eating peanuts and
board, and he starts to wonderwhy isn't there a place where
parents and children could havefun together?
(26:45):
Well, we all have ideas.
Walt got up off the bench andtook action on the idea.
And so relentless belief inyourself and the courage to get
up off of your bench and takeaction regardless.
SPEAKER_07 (27:02):
Most people see Disneyland as an entertainment
destination.
What's something they often missabout its deeper design and the
philosophy that's kind of builtinto the park?
SPEAKER_03 (27:15):
Well, it is entertaining, and and Walt loved
being an entertainer.
Remember, however, that he builtthe park for the purpose of
telling stories because, again,he wanted to be remembered as a
storyteller.
And the design of the park isactually challenging you to,
(27:38):
when you leave, to start livingyour own version of your own
great story.
And so, you know, and an exampleof that is in the in the
Fantasyland Dark Rides.
These are the original threestory-based attractions in
Fantasyland, Snow White ScaryAdventures, Peter Pan's Flight,
(28:00):
Mr.
Toad's Wild Ride.
All of those stories werecreated not to retell the entire
story.
They're not nearly long enough.
Right.
Instead to connect to theemotion that's most apparent in
the story.
So Snow White Scary Adventure isFear and Danger, Peter Pan's
Flight, Awe and Wonder, Mr.
Toad's Wild Ride is humor andcomedy.
(28:22):
And so it's a reminder that weconnect with people emotionally.
And more often than not, we makedecisions based on guess what?
Emotion.
But then, secondly, Walt didn'tput the heroes, he didn't put
the characters, he didn't putthe lead heroes into those
attractions.
(28:43):
Because his expectation waswe're not passive spectators in
the story, we are activeparticipants.
You're not going to look be onthe lookout for Snow White.
You get to be Snow White.
Stop looking for Peter Pan.
You get to be Peter Pan.
And this was very, veryconfusing to guests.
(29:04):
Because again, when we go to thepark, we want to we want to see
these characters, we want to seethese leads, we want to see
these heroes.
Not realizing that if you wantto live a great story, stop
looking for the hero, step upand be the hero.
SPEAKER_07 (29:19):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's great.
Is is there a part of the parkthat you feel best captures
Walt's original vision?
SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
Main Street USA.
SPEAKER_07 (29:35):
Main Street, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
Yeah.
It's timeless, even though it isset in the era of turn of the
century, and based on hismemories from Marceline,
Missouri, which were the onlypositive memories that Walt had
from his childhood.
Uh Walt was born in Chicago,Illinois in 1901.
The family moved to Marcelinewhen he was four.
(30:00):
Walt loved that farm.
He loved that town.
Unfortunately, the farm failed,and they moved away to Kansas
City when Walt was nine and itand it broke his heart.
And in order to reclaim thepositive part of his childhood,
Walt recreated the memories ofMarceline vis-a-vis Main Street
(30:21):
USA.
In doing so, not only does hetake us back to a timeless
error, but he's also beingvulnerable.
Vulnerability means to lean intothe wound.
Walt is leaning into the woundof his childhood.
He's also breaking everyamusement park norm of the day.
(30:46):
You don't have a single entrancein, you don't have a single exit
out.
Well, Walt understood theimportance of the opening scene
and the closing shot.
And so he wanted to control it.
Now, once you get to the CentralPlaza, once you're in front of
the castle, you've got all ofthese different lands, all of
(31:07):
these different stories that youcan head off into.
But at the very beginning, he'sgoing to control that opening
scene.
He's going to make sure heleaves that lasting first
impression.
And Main Street to this dayserves that very purpose.
(31:28):
We remember our first time at aDisney Castle Park, if for no
other reason we remember ourfirst time on Main Street USA.
SPEAKER_05 (31:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:38):
And it's also the perfect example of Walt having
one foot in the past and anotherfoot into the future.
SPEAKER_07 (31:47):
Because that leads to all the other worlds.
SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
Correct.
SPEAKER_07 (31:50):
Wow.
Well, you know, in in all of theyou do keynote speaking, you you
teach your your your course.
What detail or what story aboutDisneyland surprises people the
most when you share it?
SPEAKER_03 (32:08):
That's an easy one.
And it's probably my favoritefun fact as well.
So when Walt was when Walt wasbuilding the park, the original
budget was three and a half tofour million dollars.
He managed to spend well over 17million by the time he opened
the gates.
Because again, Walt's going tobankrupt the studio over and
over and over again, which iswhy Roy is constantly trying to
(32:30):
rein him in.
SPEAKER_07 (32:31):
How is Roy's health at this point?
SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
He's pretty messed up.
Well, despite spending$17million, Walt still doesn't have
the money to run therestaurants, to run the shops,
or even the Disneyland Hotel.
All of that is leased out tothird-party vendors.
Well, in Frontierland, which isthe largest land in the park
when it opens in 1955, there isa Mexican restaurant sponsored
(32:58):
by Frito Lay, Casa de Fritos.
Well, over time, a cast memberrealized that every single night
they would have excess tortillasand dump them in the garbage.
And he had this brilliant ideaof, well, rather than throwing
these excess tortillas away,what if we cut them up,
(33:19):
deep-fried them, put seasoningon them, tried to sell them as a
snack the next day?
And it worked.
And over time became the mostpopular snack in Disneyland, so
much so that in 1966, Fritoletook its popular Disneyland
snack nationwide, and today weknow them as Doritos.
SPEAKER_07 (33:41):
Wow.
I had no idea that was theirorigin story.
SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
Doritos were invented at Disneyland.
SPEAKER_07 (33:49):
That is pretty cool.
I'm surprised at that.
SPEAKER_03 (33:53):
Yeah.
And if you go back and look atthe branding for Doritos and the
original Disneyland sign thatused to stand out on Harbor
Boulevard in Anaheim, they'realmost identical.
SPEAKER_07 (34:05):
That's blowing my mind right now.
How has studying Walt andDisneyland changed the way you
approach your own life decisionsand choices and challenges?
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Well, I I always loved story, and now I see life
as one continuous story.
And you know, I try to make surethat I am challenging myself,
that I'm not running away fromconflict, that I am, you know,
connecting with emotion and not,you know, just checking boxes.
SPEAKER_07 (34:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (34:49):
And and that's not always easy.
But again, you know, if ifyou're going to love story and
you know tell the Walt and theDisneyland story, you know, you
have to recognize that you havea responsibility for, okay,
well, what does your story looklike?
Right.
And are you living up to youknow this promise of you know
being the hero in your own greatstory?
(35:12):
Because the temptation is, youknow, to get comfortable and you
know, to rest on your laurelsand you know, to do what you've
always done.
And Walt Walt hated repeatinghimself.
He he never was, you know, likeit was always what's next,
what's next, what next?
Right.
And I would like to think thatyou know, I'm doing the same
(35:32):
thing.
SPEAKER_07 (35:33):
Oh, that's great.
What attraction, land, or momentin the park for you has the most
meaning?
SPEAKER_03 (35:41):
Space Mountain.
SPEAKER_07 (35:43):
Space Mountain.
Well, what's the story there?
SPEAKER_03 (35:48):
So it's not necessarily what I would say is
Disney's Disneyland's bestattraction.
You know, if if I were to likebring someone who's never been
and put them on an attraction totry and blow them away and say,
you know, this is what they do,and the park is filled with
(36:10):
these kinds of experiences, I'dprobably put them on the Indiana
Jones adventure.
But for me, I know that I'm homeat Disneyland when I am on Space
Mountain.
And I don't know why, butthere's just something about
that attraction and the way thatI feel when I'm on it that is
(36:33):
incredibly comforting.
And you know, I spent two yearsafter my brain surgery not
allowed to ride anything thatshook me, spun me, jerked me
around, put any kind of G forceson me.
And that was easily theattraction I missed the most.
(36:55):
And the first attraction I rodeafter my two-year restriction
was lifted.
And I had, because of the book,people from all over the world
celebrating me having the chanceto finally ride Space Mountain
again after that two-yearhiatus.
SPEAKER_07 (37:11):
Oh, that's wild.
That's fantastic.
I remember my first ride onSpace Mountain.
I have never been to Disneyland,I have only been to Disney
World.
And I think I was about eightyears old my first ride on Space
Mountain, and it was just afrightening blur to me.
(37:33):
I was I was just back to DisneyWorld at the end of 2023.
I went with my sister and herhusband and my nephew, and Space
Mountain was the first ride wewent on.
SPEAKER_03 (37:46):
And interesting.
SPEAKER_07 (37:47):
I was I I love it too.
I I wouldn't say comfort issomething I felt while I was on
it.
SPEAKER_03 (37:54):
I think I aged 10 years, but so they're very
different experiences, Floridaand California.
So the one in Florida has twotracks, is a lot bumpier and a
lot jerkier.
And the one in California is asingle track and is faster and
smoother.
(38:14):
Oh.
So, and and it's funny you bringthat up.
Another reason why it's myfavorite attraction is arguing
over which park has the betterversion, Magic Kingdom in
Florida or Disneyland here inCalifornia, is easily the number
one marital argument between mywife and me.
She loves the version inFlorida.
(38:37):
And I tell her all the time,it's okay, you can be wrong.
SPEAKER_07 (38:43):
That's funny.
That's funny.
Well, I kind of shifting gears alittle bit, being, you know, the
hero in your own story.
What do you say to somebody whofeels their big idea is just too
risky or too impossible?
And do you draw on a specificlesson from Walt to help
reinforce that?
SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
Yes.
I I would say start small.
You you're your your brain istrying to keep you exactly where
you are because that's safe,that's comfortable, that's
knowable.
And so you're making it like waybigger as an excuse for staying
(39:21):
safe and comfortable.
So let me give you an example.
Imagine for a moment, somebodywere to walk up to Walt Disney
on the streets of Kansas Citywhen he's 21 years old back in
1923.
He's bankrupt and he's homeless.
And they say to him, Hey, kid,you're gonna have to start
(39:43):
figuring out how to buy 27,440acres in Central Florida.
Because one day you're gonna beresponsible for the nation's
largest single site employer andthe world's most popular
vacation destination.
He would have been combed.
Completely overwhelmed.
Because he's just trying tofigure out where he's sleeping
(40:05):
for the night and where his nextmeal's coming from.
SPEAKER_07 (40:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
So again, like you you take it one step at a time.
You take it one stage at a time.
The way that I wrote my book wasnot trying to sit down in a
morning and you know finish warand peace.
SPEAKER_05 (40:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (40:28):
I made a very manageable word count.
It was 333 words a day.
If I wrote more, that's great.
I never had to write, you know,I never wrote less than that.
And my only goal was to justmake sure I was consistent
enough, that's the second C,right?
That I that I w that I couldwrite to the next day.
(40:49):
And so and I and I and I coachpeople on this all the time.
If if I were to leave Orlandoand come to Disneyland or leave
Disneyland and go to Walt DisneyWorld and do that by car, I
wouldn't need enough gas in thetank to get me all the way to
Florida.
I wouldn't need the lights toshine bright enough to show me
(41:13):
the entire route from Florida toCalifornia.
I just need enough gas to get tothe next gas station.
I just need enough light to getme 20 feet down the road as, you
know, I drive through the night.
And so it's okay to start small.
It's okay to have a mini habit.
(41:34):
It's okay, as long as you'reconsistent, it's okay to do a
little bit each and every day.
And if you do that, you won'trecognize your goal three
months, six months, or a yearfrom now.
And you think it's risky?
We don't know yet.
Right.
(41:55):
Like like get up off the parkbench and start taking action, a
little bit of action everysingle day and and see where it
goes.
SPEAKER_07 (42:04):
Yeah.
I I love that because you know II talk to a lot of listeners and
and even just you know friendsand family in general, when I
when I tell them the podcast isabout people following their
passions, you know, uniquehobbies, different things like
that.
They're like, I don't have timefor a hobby.
I wouldn't even know where tostart with a hobby.
(42:25):
And I think this is the perfectsegue into you, you don't have
to be a master of whatever itis.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
That's it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (42:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:36):
Yep.
15 minutes a day is all ittakes.
SPEAKER_07 (42:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:42):
And all you're trying to do is be consistent
enough so that you know you'regoing to do it tomorrow, and you
know you're going to do it thenext day, and it just stacks.
SPEAKER_07 (42:52):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:54):
I uh I write a weekly Wednesdays with Walt
inspirational and motivationalblog.
It goes out to thousands ofsubscribers.
And I can remember when I firststarted, it felt so
overwhelming.
And you know, it was like thismonster that had to get fed
every single week.
And it was like this like bigthing.
(43:16):
And now it's like, oh, like Ialmost do it in my yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's become habit, it'sbecome routine.
SPEAKER_07 (43:25):
Let's talk a little bit about your books, The Wisdom
of Walt, and beyond the wisdom.
What do you hope readers aregoing to take away from each one
of those books?
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
The responsibility that we as leaders have for
influencing the organizationsthat we're in charge of, the
teams that we're in charge of,and making a little bit of
difference and a little bit ofdent in our world.
And I and I tell people all thetime, you don't have to change
(43:57):
the world the way that WaltDisney did.
I mean, I argue he's the mostinfluential cultural figure in
American history during the 20thcentury.
And today the sun never sits ona Disney park anywhere in the
world, which is amazingconsidering everybody thought
the first one would be bankrupt,shuttered, and forgotten in six
(44:18):
months or less.
You don't have to change theworld, but believe in yourself,
believe in your ideas, believein your dream, believe in your
team enough that you at leastchange your world a little bit
each day.
SPEAKER_07 (44:32):
From all the stories you've uncovered and the
research that you've done, whatpart which one story has
personally moved you from Walt'slife?
SPEAKER_03 (44:42):
The bankruptcy in Kansas City and the decision of
am I going to stay here, play itsafe, go get a job, regret what
happened, or am I going to takethe risk, go all in, board the
train, head to California, andgo all in with the$40 single
(45:03):
suitcase one-way ticket?
And I know when I was facing thebrain tumor and brain surgery,
that's what drove my decision.
I was all in on teaching theselessons.
I was all in and teaching thosestudents.
I knew I had already boarded thetrain.
And so when people are like, Howin the world would you risk your
(45:26):
life by putting off brainsurgery?
Because I had a$40 singlesuitcase, one-way ticket kind of
commitment.
Like I knew what I was doing, Iknew where I was going, and
there wasn't anything that wasgoing to stop me.
And so a lot of folks we talkabout it, we'll do a thing here
(45:50):
and we'll do a thing there, butit's not any kind of level of
commitment where we put all thechips on the table and wait to
see what happens on the otherside.
SPEAKER_07 (46:04):
And it worked out well for you.
It worked out well for both youand Walt.
SPEAKER_03 (46:08):
Yes.
SPEAKER_07 (46:10):
How do you feel about Disneyland's evolving, you
know, changing, changing throughthe years since Walt's time?
SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
So I'm not a fan of change.
That's a that's just apersonality thing for me.
My my mom changed the curtainsin our kitchen when I was five
years old, and I've neverforgiven her.
And she's been gone for 17 yearsnow, God rest her soul.
So, you know, the temptation isto want it to be the way that it
(46:44):
always was.
Right.
But it's not a museum, it's aliving, breathing thing.
And Walt once said, as long asthere's imagination left in the
world, Disneyland will never befinished.
And the good news in all of thatis it does keep growing, it does
keep changing, it does keepevolving.
(47:04):
We get to experience attractionsthat technologically weren't
even possible 50, 70 years ago.
SPEAKER_07 (47:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
And at the same time, and this is why I was able
to teach the history ofDisneyland course as a history
course, the park reflects what'shappening in American culture
from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s,90s, and beyond.
And so a lot of people today arelike, oh, Walt would roll over
in his grave.
Well, Walt was cremated, so Idon't know how that's possible.
(47:37):
But secondly, what Disneyland isstruggling with culturally is
exactly what we're strugglingwith across the entire country.
It's the conversation we'rehaving everywhere.
And that's been true from theday that it opened.
Go back and watch the openingday broadcast, which you can
(47:59):
easily find on YouTube, July17th, 1955.
The folks who were there reflectexactly who America wanted to
think that we were back in 1955.
Everybody's white, everybody iscoming in from church, everybody
has the perfect two and a halfkids.
(48:20):
There's no diversity, there's nointegration unless you're a
celebrity, Sammy Davis Jr., or astereotypical cast member, i.e.
Aunt Jemima.
Because this is six monthsbefore Rosa Parks refused to
give up her seat on a bus inMontgomery, Alabama.
(48:43):
That's who we were.
And the park reflects that.
SPEAKER_07 (48:46):
Do you believe the park still carries his spirit?
SPEAKER_03 (48:50):
Yes.
And so you you have to you haveto approach it in sort of a
two-pronged way.
And that is understanding thatWalt Disney was a person, an
individual who was a force ofnature.
And then the company itself is apublicly traded company that
(49:13):
answers not to the spirit andmemory of Walt, but to but to
the stockholders.
And it's been a publicly tradedcompany since the 1940s, and
Walt hated that.
I mean, part of the reason whyhe built Disneyland was so he
could form his own company andgo do his own thing because he
was so sick of the studio.
(49:34):
And he was sick of the studiobecause he was sick of having to
answer to the bottom line.
Everybody, yeah, and and to thestockholders, right?
And so, you know, there arethings that Disney does today
where I'm like, oh come on.
Really?
Seriously?
And it feels like more oftenthan not, they kind of pull Walt
(49:55):
out and prop him up in thecorner if it serves them.
Whereas otherwise they're like,yeah, whatever, we're gonna do
whatever it takes to make youknow the most money possible,
because we have stockholders toanswer to.
SPEAKER_05 (50:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (50:10):
And I get it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I
that I like it.
Now, having said all of that,and you know, I didn't I didn't
know Walt, I didn't work withWalt.
I have had the honor ofinterviewing in front of
hundreds of Disney fans peoplewho did work with Walt and were
hired with Walt and knew Waltwell.
(50:30):
And they'll tell you two things.
One, they never knew on anygiven day what Walt thought or
what Walt was going to do.
So this idea that, you know,those of us who never knew him
70 years later could possiblyknow what Walt would think or do
is, you know, crazy.
Because again, the people whogenuinely knew him had no clue
what he was thinking or what hewas going to do the next day.
(50:53):
But then secondly, he would beunbelievably proud that the
parks haven't just survived, butthat they've thrived.
Again, Sun never sits on aDisney park anywhere in the
world.
And he would love, like he wouldfeel so validated on an idea and
(51:17):
a dream that again his ownbrother and his own wife thought
would be bankrupt, shuttered,and forgotten in six months or
less.
And I know everybody today islike, oh my gosh, Disney's so
expensive.
And it is.
But the second complaint is it'sso damn crowded.
You wish I had that businessproblem.
(51:37):
Yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_05 (51:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (51:39):
Yeah.
So, you know, the more theycharge, the more people seem to
want it.
And we can complain about it,but you know, when people find
out it cost a dollar back in1955, they're like, oh my gosh,
I wish it cost a dollar today.
No, you don't.
SPEAKER_07 (51:57):
It yeah, it wouldn't have half the value.
SPEAKER_03 (52:00):
The parks would close due to capacity in 15
minutes.
SPEAKER_07 (52:03):
Yeah.
My last trip to Disney as agrown adult.
The minute I stepped onto theresort, out of the bus, onto the
resort, just a huge smile.
I couldn't help it.
And and there's just somethingabout that Disney atmosphere
from the cast members.
This is outside the park.
This is at the resort.
(52:23):
It just, I don't know.
They they do it right.
And it's and it's just a greatfeeling.
And it makes you feel like a kidno matter how old you are.
Correct.
No matter how much you paid.
SPEAKER_03 (52:35):
And people are willing to pay for that
experience because it's areality that doesn't exist
outside the park or outside theWalt Disney World bubble.
SPEAKER_07 (52:44):
Is there a hidden gem in Disneyland that you think
more people should pay attentionto?
SPEAKER_03 (52:50):
There is.
When we give tours, I like tohave people stop at the end of
Main Street underneath CokeCorner.
It's an odd-shaped space, andthere's an alternating number of
red and white light bulbs, butbecause of the odd-shaped space,
there's an odd number of lightbulbs.
And so originally there were twolight bulbs next to each other
(53:12):
that were the same color, whichis not what Walt wanted, and it
drove him nuts.
And so one night, Walt went tothe maintenance yard, grabbed a
bucket of paint and apaintbrush, painted the last
light bulb, half red and halfwhite.
SPEAKER_07 (53:31):
Really?
SPEAKER_03 (53:32):
And to this day, Disney keeps one of those light
bulbs, half red and half white,in honor of Walt.
And it's a reminder that asleaders, it's great to have the
idea, it's great to have thevision, but the execution is in
the details.
SPEAKER_07 (53:48):
What a great story.
I have one last question foryou.
If you could spend one hour withWalt Disney, what would you ask
him?
Or what would you talk aboutwith him?
SPEAKER_03 (54:00):
Epcot.
So the whole reason behind WaltDisney World wasn't to build
Magic Kingdom.
Walt went on record sayingthere'll never be another
Disneyland because he hatedrepeating himself.
He didn't want to do sequels.
SPEAKER_07 (54:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (54:14):
He only agreed to do another Disneyland, i.e.
a Magic Kingdom, because heneeded the funds to fund Epcot,
which was not another themepark.
The original vision for Epcot,which stands for Experimental
Prototype Community of Tomorrow,it was supposed to be an actual
city.
(54:35):
And it was going to be a placewhere people lived, where people
worked, where people played.
And unfortunately, and maybethis would be what I would ask
him like, why does he have tosmoke so damn much?
But Walt died of lung cancer sixmonths before they broke ground
in Florida.
They had purchased the land, butthey hadn't broken ground.
And so Roy comes out ofretirement and spends the last
(54:57):
five years seeing the firstphase of Walt Disney World
through to fruition.
And when it comes time to doEpcot, the company's like, yeah,
we don't really know what Waltwanted here.
We have no idea how to build andhow to run a city.
We know how to do a theme park.
And so they ended up turningEpcot into another theme park.
(55:19):
It's a great theme park.
Don't get me wrong.
I love Epcot.
SPEAKER_05 (55:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (55:22):
But it's not the vision and the dream that Walt
wanted.
And so I would love to hear A,what does Walt think of the
Epcot that did get built?
And, you know, would he be upsetor give them a pass based
because the last film Walt everdid was the Epcot film, where he
(55:45):
talks about the land in Florida,the vision for Walt Disney
World, and everything thatEpcot's going to be.
And he says all of this is inthe planning stage, and all of
this is subject to change.
And so I would be like, okay, sohe said all of this was subject
to change.
Obviously, they changed it.
(56:05):
How do you feel about that?
Like, like, what do you think ofwhat they did versus you know
what they could have done?
Yeah.
I think that's a super curiousquestion.
SPEAKER_07 (56:15):
Yeah.
Great stuff.
I have so enjoyed my time withyou.
SPEAKER_03 (56:21):
Me too.
SPEAKER_07 (56:22):
Is there anything?
I'm gonna have a link to bothbooks, but is there anything or
any place I can send listenersto who want to learn more about
you, your course?
SPEAKER_03 (56:34):
So you can find me at thewisdomofwalt.com.
SPEAKER_07 (56:37):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (56:38):
And I encourage everyone to sign up via the
resource tab to the weeklyWednesdays with Walt blog.
It's 100% free.
You're gonna get stories fromthe Disney Park, stories from
Walt's life, stories from mineand Lindsay's life that are
going to encourage you andmotivate you, keep you moving
(57:00):
forward, make you a betterleader and make you a better
person.
SPEAKER_07 (57:03):
Ah, fantastic.
Dr.
Disneyland, thank you so muchfor your time.
I really appreciate it.
I've enjoyed it and I'veactually learned a few things
that I'm gonna now challengemyself to apply to my own story.
(57:24):
I had such a great time talkingto Dr.
Jeffrey Barnes, aka Dr.
Disneyland.
Just a phenomenal life of workthat he's put into to create his
college-acredited course, whichspawned the books and his
keynote speaking engagement.
I it was just such a pleasure totalk to him and learn more about
(57:49):
Walt Disney.
And I think the two takeawaysfrom me, from what Walt tried to
do with Disneyland is in puttingthe patrons into the story is
really becoming the hero in ourown stories.
And much like life, there'salways conflict in our stories.
(58:10):
And conflict can sometimes spawnyou into action.
And it, you know, those thosetwo points really stuck with me,
aside from the really funnystory about how Doritos were
invented.
But anyway, I hope you enjoyedmy conversation with Dr.
Disneyland.
And if you jump down to the shownotes, I'll have links to his
(58:31):
books, his website, and don'tforget to sign up for his
Wednesdays with Walt newsletter.
So that's it for this week.
Again, I hope you enjoyed thisweek's content.
If you're enjoying a sort ofconversations, please leave a
five-star written reviewwherever you download your
(58:52):
podcasts.
It helps the podcast becomevisible to others who may enjoy
this type of content.
And I would really appreciatethe boost and the help.
So again, that's it for thisweek.
I will see you in two weeks withan interview with the man
himself, Santa.
Take care, everyone.
Everyday people following their passions.
SPEAKER_00 (00:13):
That's probably like like one of the highlights of my
life so far.
Just being able to be creativelike that.
Something I always want.
SPEAKER_04 (00:22):
And then I decided to get another hive, and that
turned into a lot of hives.
SPEAKER_03 (00:28):
As long as I can do that, I want to be a good
citizen.
Help people out.
SPEAKER_07 (00:33):
Putting themselves out there, taking chances, and
navigating challenges along theway.
SPEAKER_06 (00:40):
I I absolutely identified with having stage
ride because, you know, anytimeI went on stage, I just felt
like I was having a hot attack.
SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Very first laugh, very first practice session, I
crashed, turned the car upsidedown, made a spectacle of
myself, and I got back on thathorse and started riding again.
SPEAKER_07 (00:56):
As they pursue what makes them happy and brings them
joy.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02):
As long as people are having a good time and I
have the opportunity to putsmiles on people's faces, I I
love what I do.
SPEAKER_04 (01:08):
I have done things that I never thought I could do.
To have somebody tell me howreal it looks and how, you know,
from their actual memory,because that's telling me I've
captured what I was trying toget.
SPEAKER_07 (01:24):
Welcome to a sorted conversation.
I'm your host, Helen.
We are back at it this week, andI am talking all things Disney
because I have the opportunityto chat with one of the foremost
experts on Walt Disney and theDisney dynasty.
(01:47):
From motivation and leadershiplessons demonstrated by Walt
Disney to how this week's guesthas researched, applied, and
continues to share how we canall become better dreamers and
doers.
And there's a bonus piece, alittle factoid of how Doritos
were invented.
(02:08):
And yes, Disney was involved.
So take a listen to this week'sepisode, and I'll see you on the
other side.
Today's guest is someone whobrings imagination to life, both
in the classroom and beyond.
He's a best-selling author,storyteller, leadership expert,
and one of the foremostauthorities on the spirit and
(02:30):
legacy of Disneyland.
He's known around the world asDr.
Disneyland because he has spentyears studying the park's
history, design, and philosophy,uncovering timeless lessons
about creativity, leadership,customer experience, and the
magic that happens when boldideas meet relentless curiosity.
(02:53):
It is my absolute pleasure towelcome to Astoric Conversations
Dr.
Jeffrey Barnes.
Hi, Dr.
Jeffrey.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
Well, hello.
And oh my gosh, I'm so excitedto be not just with you today,
but of course, your wonderfulaudience.
How are you?
SPEAKER_07 (03:10):
I am well.
I am well.
Thank you so much for taking thetime.
Absolutely.
The fascination with Disney andWalt Disney, where did it start?
How did it start for you?
SPEAKER_03 (03:22):
Great question.
And it's not a one-shot answer.
So, you know, as a kid growingup in the panhandle of Florida,
we went to Walt Disney Worldthree years after it opened.
I was 10 years old.
And I can remember thinking,standing on Main Street, that if
there were anything such asheaven on this side of living,
(03:45):
that had to be it.
And so I just, you know,instantly became the kid.
If we were going back foranother vacation, or if there
was like a school trip or ascouting trip, what I tended to
be like the most excited aboutgoing to Walt Disney World.
And this is before Epcot and youknow Animal Kingdom and
Hollywood studies.
(04:05):
It was like it was just like, itwas just like, wow, like this is
like amazing, and this isperfect, and this is the way the
world should be.
My parents had gone toDisneyland here in Southern
California back in 1960, a fewyears before I was born, and
they talked about that you knowtrip in you know mystical sorts
(04:26):
of ways.
And so when I moved toCalifornia and finally made my
way down to Los Angeles, becausewhen I moved to California, I
was up in Northern California.
Like I couldn't wait to get toDisneyland because this is the
one my parents had gone to, andyou know, this was the original,
and this was the only one Walthad ever actually walked in.
(04:47):
And I was so disappointed.
I I was so devastated.
And a lot of it was you know theexpectations of my childhood.
A good bit of it had to do withjust the fact that I was grossly
unprepared.
I I walked in at 11 o'clock on aSunday in August, and so of
course it was crowded, and ofcourse it was hot, and I'd seen
(05:10):
all of the commercials for thenewest, latest, greatest
attraction, which was Star Toursin Tomorrowland.
And so I couldn't wait to get toStar Tours fast enough.
And I asked a cast member, hey,where is Star Tours?
Because they didn't have it atMagic Kingdom, this was new.
And they were like, Well, you'rein the right place for the ride,
wrong place for the line.
(05:31):
And we got redirected to the endof Main Street, waited three
hours before we could experienceour first Disneyland attraction.
And of course, by the time we'reoff the ride, it's even hotter,
it's even more crowded.
I left that night hatingeverything about Disneyland.
(05:51):
And if you had told me then thatI'd be doing what I'm doing now,
I would have said you'reabsolutely nuts.
But and I I use that word a lotbecause people need to realize
you know, the past doesn't driveyour story, the wake doesn't
drive the boat, right?
You can always put a butt andmove forward in a new and
(06:14):
different and better direction.
I stayed in California longenough to realize this park
really means something to localsin a way that I didn't
experience as a resident ofFlorida.
And I was super curious.
You know, Walt once was asked,what does it take to be
successful?
And he said it comes down tofour C's, uh confidence, uh
(06:36):
consistency, curiosity, andcourage.
And out of those four, I I gotyou know a double or triple dose
of curiosity.
And so I just had to know well,what is it about Disneyland that
everyone else seems to love andand I hate and I had this you
know awful experience.
So I started doing research.
(06:57):
That's when I discovered WaltDisney wasn't born successful,
Walt Disney had a very difficultand impoverished childhood, Walt
Disney had a difficultrelationship with his dad.
Walt Disney had more failuresthan successes.
Walt Disney, when he wasbuilding his dream for
(07:18):
Disneyland at the ripe old ageof 53, did not have a friend in
a wor in the world.
Nobody believed in it, toinclude his own wife and his own
brother.
And I think most importantly, hebuilt the park for the purpose
of telling stories.
You see, Walt didn't want to beremembered for Mickey Mouse,
Snow White, or even Disneyland,Walt wanted to be remembered as
(07:39):
a storyteller.
And when Disneyland opened in1955, there were 2,000 amusement
parks across the country.
None of them told stories.
They were all parks that engagedus physically, but nothing that
sparked our imaginations orchallenged us mentally.
And so Walt wanted to dosomething completely new and
(08:01):
completely different.
Well, I was in grad schoolwriting a doctoral dissertation
on narrative or story criticism.
I love story.
And so Walt's desire to beremembered as a storyteller, but
then build a park that toldstories.
Oh my god, I fell in love.
I just fell in love with thatidea.
(08:22):
And so three years after myfirst trip, I returned seeing it
through the lens of A, Walt'sstory, and then B, his desire to
tell stories.
And it it was it waslife-changing.
Instantly became an obsessionfor me.
I I can remember coming home inJune of 91 and telling people,
(08:47):
I'm going to write a Disneylandbook one day.
And this is the completeopposite of I hate this place
and I'm never going back.
I just don't get it.
SPEAKER_07 (08:57):
So it really was that story connection for you
that pulled it all together.
SPEAKER_03 (09:01):
Right.
And and and the real piece, weall love story.
Uh story's right, we read books,it's why we go to the movies.
It's a story that brings us backto the Disney parks over and
over and over again.
As human beings, we are wiredfor story.
The challenge is most of us arechasing the wrong part of the
story.
We're looking for the happilyever after ending.
(09:24):
That's not what makes a greatstory.
Every great story requiresconflict.
And Walt's story was filled withconflict.
We see it in his childhood.
We see it with the bankruptcy.
We see it with the loss of hisfirst successful character.
We see it when he's doing SnowWhite, the world's first
full-length animated featurefilm.
(09:46):
We see it again with Disneyland.
It's the conflict that makes thestory interesting.
And if you've got any listenersright now who are bored with
their life, it's because they'rechoosing not to do hard and
difficult things.
SPEAKER_07 (10:02):
Yeah, it's funny because you know, I can think
back in my like after graduatingfrom college and being in the
workforce for a couple years,and I can remember saying, I
need a bone rattling change.
I need something to shake thingsup because I'm bored, I'm
getting too complacent, and I'mnot being challenged.
(10:22):
And I I can I can look at maybeonce every 10 years, I have
something like that.
Now, this past year, completelydifferent story.
I've had enough bone rattlingchange to last a lifetime.
SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
But yeah, and so what typically happens is we
accept comfort, we accept easy,we accept boredom, and then
something outside of our controlhappens that forces us to change
and forces us to alter thestory, right?
(10:53):
And so my passion is to getpeople to choose the better
story rather than wait and haveit forced upon them.
SPEAKER_07 (11:02):
Wow.
So at what point during yourresearch, when you when you
declared I'm writing aDisneyland book someday, at what
point during your research didpeople start calling you Dr.
Disneyland?
How did that come about?
SPEAKER_03 (11:17):
So it wasn't instant because A, I'm living up in
Northern California, so I'm notable to go to the park on any
sort of regular basis.
And then two, it's great to havethis wonderful idea.
You know, Walt dreamed ofbuilding a place where parents
and children could have funtogether for 20 plus years.
But that didn't mean he likeinstantly started doing it the
(11:38):
second the idea came to him.
I didn't know how to write abook.
I didn't know how to publish abook, I didn't know how to
market or sell a book.
It was a nice thought.
And every now and again, youknow, I would do more reading
and do more research, and youknow, I'd write a sentence here
and you know, try to scribbleout a paragraph there.
(11:59):
But it it wasn't anything that,you know, was like this is going
to happen no matter what, untilA, I moved to Southern
California and realized inworking with struggling
students.
I had a 22-year career in highereducation.
And in Southern California,there's only two things that we
(12:21):
can all agree with, becauseeveryone's from everywhere else,
right?
We all love In N Out Burger, andwe all go to Disneyland.
And I was working with studentswho had the ability to be
successful in college, but theywere just choosing not to go to
class.
They were choosing not to do thework, they were choosing not to
take the exams.
And so I'm struggling to likefind a way to teach them success
(12:45):
lessons in a way that they'reactually going to listen.
And I realized that every lessonI needed to teach these students
were right there at Disneylandand right there in Walt's life
and in Walt's story.
And so I pitched this idea ofteaching a college course on the
(13:05):
history of Disneyland, whichyes, was going to be great for
the students.
If I'm a hundred percent honest,it was also a way for me to
write the book without having towrite the book because I had
been teaching I don't know howmany different courses for two
decades at this point.
I knew I didn't know how towrite a book, but I knew how to
(13:28):
teach another college course.
And so teaching the collegecourse was a way of scratching
that itch without getting moreuncomfortable than I was like
really ready to do.
SPEAKER_07 (13:40):
It's a fantastic book.
I've listened to it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:42):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_07 (13:43):
I I don't think you narrate it.
You didn't narrate it, did you?
SPEAKER_03 (13:47):
So I love the narrator, individual by the name
of Al Kessel, who's a hugeDisney fan, read it and reached
out to me and said, I love yourbook.
I'd be honored to do thenarration.
And he is a full-time, you know,audible narrator.
And as I approached thisproject, my thinking was I
(14:08):
wanted it to be at the highestquality possible because that
was the mindset Walt had when hewas building Disneyland, right?
I didn't want to just record myown book using my iPhone in my
like I wanted it to be, youknow, at the highest quality
possible.
And so I was more than happy tooutsource that.
(14:28):
And yeah, people people love thework that Al did.
SPEAKER_07 (14:32):
Yeah, I there's so much great information.
I mean, you had to write it tobegin with.
There's so much greatinformation in there, and all
the little anecdotes and thestories and the little passport
stamps at the end of eachchapter.
I I mean they're there reallyare just pulling the lessons
out.
I could definitely say I'm acorporate trainer.
(14:54):
Um, so I could definitely seethe key takeaways in those in
those passport stamps.
It is a phenomenal book.
SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
Well, thank you.
And that's, you know, as youknow from having listened to the
book, uh I taught the collegecourse, and in the middle of
teaching that after the firstlecture, I get diagnosed with a
life-threatening brain tumor.
And they wanted to operateimmediately.
Uh, recovery was two months,which would have canceled the
(15:22):
course.
And I refused because the coursewas never about the amusement
park.
It was really about challengingthe students to recognize that
in order to be successful,you've got to embrace conflict,
you've got to overcomeobstacles, you've got to do hard
things.
And so that summer was anopportunity for me to not just
teach the course, but to livethe course.
(15:46):
And on the other side of thesurgery, spoiler alert, I lived.
On the other side of thesurgery, I'm like, it was great
to teach the class, but if thathad been it, I would have been
disappointed that I never wrotethe book.
SPEAKER_05 (16:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
And so that's how the book actually happened.
It took conflict, it took megetting sick.
And what was 20 years of, oh, Idon't know how, woe is me, no
one will publish it, no one willbuy it.
Start to finish 142 days.
SPEAKER_07 (16:22):
Wow.
So sometimes just shutting up,rolling up your sleeves and
getting it done.
SPEAKER_03 (16:27):
But again, it's on the other side of conflict,
right?
True, yep.
So I guarantee you, everybodylistening to us today have had
something, probably multiplesomething, happen to them that
they wish had not happened.
Right.
Right?
SPEAKER_07 (16:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
It's not about what happened, it's how you respond
to what happens.
And so I'm glad I got sick.
I'm grateful that I got a braintumor because it forced me to do
what I had said I had beenwanting to do for two decades,
only now I got over myself, satdown and did the work.
(17:05):
And now it's the only work thatI do.
SPEAKER_07 (17:07):
Yeah, yeah.
That that is that is fantastic.
And yes, it does take a bonerattling change sometimes just
to like shake the dust out andand get going.
SPEAKER_04 (17:19):
Correct.
SPEAKER_07 (17:20):
So through your research and in writing the book
and learning about Walt Disney,what leadership principle from
Walt do you believe is the mostneeded?
SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
Vision.
SPEAKER_07 (17:31):
Vision?
SPEAKER_03 (17:32):
Absolutely.
I I I work a lot with leaders.
I still go back to my formeruniversity and spend time in the
summer mentoring uh PhDleadership students.
The number one trait of aleader, not a manager, because
those are very, very different,and we get them mixed up too
often.
SPEAKER_05 (17:51):
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (17:52):
But the number one trait of a leader is having the
ability to see where we need togo, what we need to do, a future
that doesn't yet exist.
And then becoming so clear andso passionate about that vision
(18:15):
that you create rabid followerswho are willing to go with you
into that unknown future.
Yeah, I'm not sure.
So again, like and so Walt'svision for animation, his vision
for synchronizing sound inSteamboat Willie, his vision for
a full-length animated featurefilm, his vision for the
(18:39):
amusement park industry andturning them into parks that
tell stories.
You know, people loved that somuch that they were willing to
follow him to the ends of theearth to help make that happen.
SPEAKER_07 (18:52):
Right.
Right.
And I and some of the otherthings I had read and learned
about Walt Disney myself, it washis his his leadership, and that
yeah, he was the one holding theflashlight, but he was staring
into the abyss, and everybodyelse was right behind him.
SPEAKER_03 (19:10):
Correct.
Well, and and sometimessometimes he held the flashlight
alone, and people eventuallycame alongside him when they
realized that despite the factthat no one else believed, Walt
believed and was willing to moveforward into that abyss with the
(19:34):
flashlight alone.
SPEAKER_07 (19:36):
What what was something that he he led the
charge by himself first beforeour folks joined him?
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
So uh let me back up a little bit.
Walt's first studio was LafagramStudio in Kansas City, Missouri.
And he he did a couple ofdifferent projects there, but by
and large, he was creatinganimation advertisements for.
For a local dentist.
Studio lasted 18 months.
And after only a year and ahalf, he it's it's bankrupt, and
(20:08):
Walt Disney is homeless.
And his older brother Roy, whois in Los Angeles recovering
from tuberculosis post-World WarI, encourages him to come out to
California.
And so Walt boards a train inKansas City with$40, a single
suitcase, and a one-way ticket.
And then together he joinsforces with his older brother
(20:33):
Roy, and they form the DisneyBrothers Studio that today is
the largest entertainmentcompany anywhere in the world.
I tell people all the time thedifference between the first
studio that went bankrupt in 18months and the second studio
that is the world's largestentertainment company today, the
difference between the two isnot Walt.
(20:56):
The difference is Roy.
If Walt had had his way, hewould have driven the second
studio into bankruptcy and offthe financial and physical cliff
all over again.
Now, having said all of that, ifit weren't for Walt, Roy would
have spent the rest of his lifeselling vacuum cleaners door to
door here in SouthernCalifornia.
(21:18):
They needed each other.
Right.
And because they came atbusiness from two very different
perspectives, Walt's a visionaryand creative leader.
Roy is a manager.
They clashed a lot.
Roy didn't necessarily thinkthat they needed to spend all of
the money that Walt was willingto spend to synchronize the
(21:41):
sound for Steamboat Willie.
Steamboat Willie was not thefirst Mickey Mouse cartoon.
There were two prior cartoonsthat same year, but Steamboat
Willie only got distributionbecause of the uniqueness of the
synchronized sound.
When they go to do Snow White,it's in the middle of the Great
Depression.
(22:02):
Nobody has any money, except forWalt, because of the popularity
of the Mickey Mouse shortcartoons.
Walt realizes, however, if hedoesn't own the feature film,
then eventually the shortcartoons are going to go away.
When's the last time you saw acartoon before a full-length
anime before a full-lengthfeature film?
(22:22):
It's been a while, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Walt was right.
Well, that film was going tocost millions upon millions of
dollars.
And at one point, as they'regetting deeper and deeper into
debt, Walt gets an anonymousnote from someone in the studio
that says stick to shorts,meaning stick to the shorter
(22:42):
cartoons, Walt.
And years later, he would cometo find out it was his older
brother Roy.
SPEAKER_07 (22:48):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_03 (22:49):
And when he was building Disneyland, Roy and
Lily wanted nothing to do withit.
And Roy even called up the banksand said, if my brother comes
down there to talk to you aboutthat damn amusement park, I need
to know about it.
But there's that word again.
The first person to spend thefirst dollar, that's all it
(23:11):
costs to get into Disneylandback in 1955.
The first person to spend thefirst dollar to purchase the
first ticket into the park wasWalt's older brother Roy.
SPEAKER_07 (23:20):
What a great story.
SPEAKER_03 (23:22):
So he came around, right?
Yeah.
Because Walt did not give up.
So you don't have to convincepeople that you're right.
You just have to convince peoplethat you believe that you're
right.
SPEAKER_07 (23:37):
That's a great lesson.
I was going to ask you, sinceDisneyland was created at a
point in time where it wasn'tsupposed to be successful.
SPEAKER_03 (23:45):
Right.
SPEAKER_07 (23:46):
What what can leaders or and and even somebody
that is just looking for betterself-leadership of themselves?
What can folks learn from thatboldness and resilience that
that Walt had?
SPEAKER_03 (24:00):
The courage to do new and different things.
And to recognize that, you know,the marketplace isn't looking
for another version of whatever.
Right?
You're only going to genuinelymove the needle if you take
risks and create things that donot currently exist.
(24:25):
And that's scary.
Yes.
Right?
But but that's true leadership.
I mean, look at Henry Ford.
You know, Henry Ford was famousfor saying if I had asked people
what they wanted, they wouldhave said a faster horse.
He didn't care what the peoplewanted.
(24:46):
He knew what they needed andgave it to them.
Walt was the exact same way.
We didn't know we needed MickeyMouse or synchronized sound or
full-length animated featurefilm or park that told stories.
He gave it to us anyway and tookon all of the risk as a result.
SPEAKER_07 (25:04):
If you had to choose one habit or one mindset that
Walt had that separated him fromhis contemporaries at that point
in time, what do you think itis?
SPEAKER_03 (25:17):
Well, I'll I'll take it a step further.
It's not so much that itseparated him from his
contemporaries as much as itseparates him from any and
everybody.
So I I believe that we are allcloser to Walt Disney than we
realize.
So if you weren't bornsuccessful, you're like Walt
Disney.
If you had a challengingchildhood, you're like Walt
(25:39):
Disney.
If you have a difficultrelationship with one of your
parents, you're like WaltDisney.
If you've ever failed, you'relike Walt Disney.
Walt, however, never gave up.
His wife Lily once said, I'venever seen Walt beaten at
anything.
Isn't that an amazingcompliment?
(26:02):
Yeah.
Like can you imagine yourpartner saying, Yeah, boy, you
know, he or she took some licksand you know, things got tough,
but wow, I I just never saw thembeaten at anything.
And then Walt was willing totake action over and over and
over again.
Into the abyss, I love thatword.
(26:23):
And and sometimes not even witha flashlight.
So, you know, the idea forDisneyland came when Walt was
sitting on a park bench atGriffith Park in downtown Los
Angeles, and his two youngdaughters are riding the
merry-gound, and he's sitting onthis bench eating peanuts and
board, and he starts to wonderwhy isn't there a place where
parents and children could havefun together?
(26:45):
Well, we all have ideas.
Walt got up off the bench andtook action on the idea.
And so relentless belief inyourself and the courage to get
up off of your bench and takeaction regardless.
SPEAKER_07 (27:02):
Most people see Disneyland as an entertainment
destination.
What's something they often missabout its deeper design and the
philosophy that's kind of builtinto the park?
SPEAKER_03 (27:15):
Well, it is entertaining, and and Walt loved
being an entertainer.
Remember, however, that he builtthe park for the purpose of
telling stories because, again,he wanted to be remembered as a
storyteller.
And the design of the park isactually challenging you to,
(27:38):
when you leave, to start livingyour own version of your own
great story.
And so, you know, and an exampleof that is in the in the
Fantasyland Dark Rides.
These are the original threestory-based attractions in
Fantasyland, Snow White ScaryAdventures, Peter Pan's Flight,
(28:00):
Mr.
Toad's Wild Ride.
All of those stories werecreated not to retell the entire
story.
They're not nearly long enough.
Right.
Instead to connect to theemotion that's most apparent in
the story.
So Snow White Scary Adventure isFear and Danger, Peter Pan's
Flight, Awe and Wonder, Mr.
Toad's Wild Ride is humor andcomedy.
(28:22):
And so it's a reminder that weconnect with people emotionally.
And more often than not, we makedecisions based on guess what?
Emotion.
But then, secondly, Walt didn'tput the heroes, he didn't put
the characters, he didn't putthe lead heroes into those
attractions.
(28:43):
Because his expectation waswe're not passive spectators in
the story, we are activeparticipants.
You're not going to look be onthe lookout for Snow White.
You get to be Snow White.
Stop looking for Peter Pan.
You get to be Peter Pan.
And this was very, veryconfusing to guests.
(29:04):
Because again, when we go to thepark, we want to we want to see
these characters, we want to seethese leads, we want to see
these heroes.
Not realizing that if you wantto live a great story, stop
looking for the hero, step upand be the hero.
SPEAKER_07 (29:19):
Oh, that's awesome.
That's great.
Is is there a part of the parkthat you feel best captures
Walt's original vision?
SPEAKER_03 (29:33):
Main Street USA.
SPEAKER_07 (29:35):
Main Street, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
Yeah.
It's timeless, even though it isset in the era of turn of the
century, and based on hismemories from Marceline,
Missouri, which were the onlypositive memories that Walt had
from his childhood.
Uh Walt was born in Chicago,Illinois in 1901.
The family moved to Marcelinewhen he was four.
(30:00):
Walt loved that farm.
He loved that town.
Unfortunately, the farm failed,and they moved away to Kansas
City when Walt was nine and itand it broke his heart.
And in order to reclaim thepositive part of his childhood,
Walt recreated the memories ofMarceline vis-a-vis Main Street
(30:21):
USA.
In doing so, not only does hetake us back to a timeless
error, but he's also beingvulnerable.
Vulnerability means to lean intothe wound.
Walt is leaning into the woundof his childhood.
He's also breaking everyamusement park norm of the day.
(30:46):
You don't have a single entrancein, you don't have a single exit
out.
Well, Walt understood theimportance of the opening scene
and the closing shot.
And so he wanted to control it.
Now, once you get to the CentralPlaza, once you're in front of
the castle, you've got all ofthese different lands, all of
(31:07):
these different stories that youcan head off into.
But at the very beginning, he'sgoing to control that opening
scene.
He's going to make sure heleaves that lasting first
impression.
And Main Street to this dayserves that very purpose.
(31:28):
We remember our first time at aDisney Castle Park, if for no
other reason we remember ourfirst time on Main Street USA.
SPEAKER_05 (31:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:38):
And it's also the perfect example of Walt having
one foot in the past and anotherfoot into the future.
SPEAKER_07 (31:47):
Because that leads to all the other worlds.
SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
Correct.
SPEAKER_07 (31:50):
Wow.
Well, you know, in in all of theyou do keynote speaking, you you
teach your your your course.
What detail or what story aboutDisneyland surprises people the
most when you share it?
SPEAKER_03 (32:08):
That's an easy one.
And it's probably my favoritefun fact as well.
So when Walt was when Walt wasbuilding the park, the original
budget was three and a half tofour million dollars.
He managed to spend well over 17million by the time he opened
the gates.
Because again, Walt's going tobankrupt the studio over and
over and over again, which iswhy Roy is constantly trying to
(32:30):
rein him in.
SPEAKER_07 (32:31):
How is Roy's health at this point?
SPEAKER_03 (32:34):
He's pretty messed up.
Well, despite spending$17million, Walt still doesn't have
the money to run therestaurants, to run the shops,
or even the Disneyland Hotel.
All of that is leased out tothird-party vendors.
Well, in Frontierland, which isthe largest land in the park
when it opens in 1955, there isa Mexican restaurant sponsored
(32:58):
by Frito Lay, Casa de Fritos.
Well, over time, a cast memberrealized that every single night
they would have excess tortillasand dump them in the garbage.
And he had this brilliant ideaof, well, rather than throwing
these excess tortillas away,what if we cut them up,
(33:19):
deep-fried them, put seasoningon them, tried to sell them as a
snack the next day?
And it worked.
And over time became the mostpopular snack in Disneyland, so
much so that in 1966, Fritoletook its popular Disneyland
snack nationwide, and today weknow them as Doritos.
SPEAKER_07 (33:41):
Wow.
I had no idea that was theirorigin story.
SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
Doritos were invented at Disneyland.
SPEAKER_07 (33:49):
That is pretty cool.
I'm surprised at that.
SPEAKER_03 (33:53):
Yeah.
And if you go back and look atthe branding for Doritos and the
original Disneyland sign thatused to stand out on Harbor
Boulevard in Anaheim, they'realmost identical.
SPEAKER_07 (34:05):
That's blowing my mind right now.
How has studying Walt andDisneyland changed the way you
approach your own life decisionsand choices and challenges?
SPEAKER_03 (34:23):
Well, I I always loved story, and now I see life
as one continuous story.
And you know, I try to make surethat I am challenging myself,
that I'm not running away fromconflict, that I am, you know,
connecting with emotion and not,you know, just checking boxes.
SPEAKER_07 (34:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (34:49):
And and that's not always easy.
But again, you know, if ifyou're going to love story and
you know tell the Walt and theDisneyland story, you know, you
have to recognize that you havea responsibility for, okay,
well, what does your story looklike?
Right.
And are you living up to youknow this promise of you know
being the hero in your own greatstory?
(35:12):
Because the temptation is, youknow, to get comfortable and you
know, to rest on your laurelsand you know, to do what you've
always done.
And Walt Walt hated repeatinghimself.
He he never was, you know, likeit was always what's next,
what's next, what next?
Right.
And I would like to think thatyou know, I'm doing the same
(35:32):
thing.
SPEAKER_07 (35:33):
Oh, that's great.
What attraction, land, or momentin the park for you has the most
meaning?
SPEAKER_03 (35:41):
Space Mountain.
SPEAKER_07 (35:43):
Space Mountain.
Well, what's the story there?
SPEAKER_03 (35:48):
So it's not necessarily what I would say is
Disney's Disneyland's bestattraction.
You know, if if I were to likebring someone who's never been
and put them on an attraction totry and blow them away and say,
you know, this is what they do,and the park is filled with
(36:10):
these kinds of experiences, I'dprobably put them on the Indiana
Jones adventure.
But for me, I know that I'm homeat Disneyland when I am on Space
Mountain.
And I don't know why, butthere's just something about
that attraction and the way thatI feel when I'm on it that is
(36:33):
incredibly comforting.
And you know, I spent two yearsafter my brain surgery not
allowed to ride anything thatshook me, spun me, jerked me
around, put any kind of G forceson me.
And that was easily theattraction I missed the most.
(36:55):
And the first attraction I rodeafter my two-year restriction
was lifted.
And I had, because of the book,people from all over the world
celebrating me having the chanceto finally ride Space Mountain
again after that two-yearhiatus.
SPEAKER_07 (37:11):
Oh, that's wild.
That's fantastic.
I remember my first ride onSpace Mountain.
I have never been to Disneyland,I have only been to Disney
World.
And I think I was about eightyears old my first ride on Space
Mountain, and it was just afrightening blur to me.
(37:33):
I was I was just back to DisneyWorld at the end of 2023.
I went with my sister and herhusband and my nephew, and Space
Mountain was the first ride wewent on.
SPEAKER_03 (37:46):
And interesting.
SPEAKER_07 (37:47):
I was I I love it too.
I I wouldn't say comfort issomething I felt while I was on
it.
SPEAKER_03 (37:54):
I think I aged 10 years, but so they're very
different experiences, Floridaand California.
So the one in Florida has twotracks, is a lot bumpier and a
lot jerkier.
And the one in California is asingle track and is faster and
smoother.
(38:14):
Oh.
So, and and it's funny you bringthat up.
Another reason why it's myfavorite attraction is arguing
over which park has the betterversion, Magic Kingdom in
Florida or Disneyland here inCalifornia, is easily the number
one marital argument between mywife and me.
She loves the version inFlorida.
(38:37):
And I tell her all the time,it's okay, you can be wrong.
SPEAKER_07 (38:43):
That's funny.
That's funny.
Well, I kind of shifting gears alittle bit, being, you know, the
hero in your own story.
What do you say to somebody whofeels their big idea is just too
risky or too impossible?
And do you draw on a specificlesson from Walt to help
reinforce that?
SPEAKER_03 (39:01):
Yes.
I I would say start small.
You you're your your brain istrying to keep you exactly where
you are because that's safe,that's comfortable, that's
knowable.
And so you're making it like waybigger as an excuse for staying
(39:21):
safe and comfortable.
So let me give you an example.
Imagine for a moment, somebodywere to walk up to Walt Disney
on the streets of Kansas Citywhen he's 21 years old back in
1923.
He's bankrupt and he's homeless.
And they say to him, Hey, kid,you're gonna have to start
(39:43):
figuring out how to buy 27,440acres in Central Florida.
Because one day you're gonna beresponsible for the nation's
largest single site employer andthe world's most popular
vacation destination.
He would have been combed.
Completely overwhelmed.
Because he's just trying tofigure out where he's sleeping
(40:05):
for the night and where his nextmeal's coming from.
SPEAKER_07 (40:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (40:09):
So again, like you you take it one step at a time.
You take it one stage at a time.
The way that I wrote my book wasnot trying to sit down in a
morning and you know finish warand peace.
SPEAKER_05 (40:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (40:28):
I made a very manageable word count.
It was 333 words a day.
If I wrote more, that's great.
I never had to write, you know,I never wrote less than that.
And my only goal was to justmake sure I was consistent
enough, that's the second C,right?
That I that I w that I couldwrite to the next day.
(40:49):
And so and I and I and I coachpeople on this all the time.
If if I were to leave Orlandoand come to Disneyland or leave
Disneyland and go to Walt DisneyWorld and do that by car, I
wouldn't need enough gas in thetank to get me all the way to
Florida.
I wouldn't need the lights toshine bright enough to show me
(41:13):
the entire route from Florida toCalifornia.
I just need enough gas to get tothe next gas station.
I just need enough light to getme 20 feet down the road as, you
know, I drive through the night.
And so it's okay to start small.
It's okay to have a mini habit.
(41:34):
It's okay, as long as you'reconsistent, it's okay to do a
little bit each and every day.
And if you do that, you won'trecognize your goal three
months, six months, or a yearfrom now.
And you think it's risky?
We don't know yet.
Right.
(41:55):
Like like get up off the parkbench and start taking action, a
little bit of action everysingle day and and see where it
goes.
SPEAKER_07 (42:04):
Yeah.
I I love that because you know II talk to a lot of listeners and
and even just you know friendsand family in general, when I
when I tell them the podcast isabout people following their
passions, you know, uniquehobbies, different things like
that.
They're like, I don't have timefor a hobby.
I wouldn't even know where tostart with a hobby.
(42:25):
And I think this is the perfectsegue into you, you don't have
to be a master of whatever itis.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
That's it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (42:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:36):
Yep.
15 minutes a day is all ittakes.
SPEAKER_07 (42:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:42):
And all you're trying to do is be consistent
enough so that you know you'regoing to do it tomorrow, and you
know you're going to do it thenext day, and it just stacks.
SPEAKER_07 (42:52):
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:54):
I uh I write a weekly Wednesdays with Walt
inspirational and motivationalblog.
It goes out to thousands ofsubscribers.
And I can remember when I firststarted, it felt so
overwhelming.
And you know, it was like thismonster that had to get fed
every single week.
And it was like this like bigthing.
(43:16):
And now it's like, oh, like Ialmost do it in my yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's become habit, it'sbecome routine.
SPEAKER_07 (43:25):
Let's talk a little bit about your books, The Wisdom
of Walt, and beyond the wisdom.
What do you hope readers aregoing to take away from each one
of those books?
SPEAKER_03 (43:36):
The responsibility that we as leaders have for
influencing the organizationsthat we're in charge of, the
teams that we're in charge of,and making a little bit of
difference and a little bit ofdent in our world.
And I and I tell people all thetime, you don't have to change
(43:57):
the world the way that WaltDisney did.
I mean, I argue he's the mostinfluential cultural figure in
American history during the 20thcentury.
And today the sun never sits ona Disney park anywhere in the
world, which is amazingconsidering everybody thought
the first one would be bankrupt,shuttered, and forgotten in six
(44:18):
months or less.
You don't have to change theworld, but believe in yourself,
believe in your ideas, believein your dream, believe in your
team enough that you at leastchange your world a little bit
each day.
SPEAKER_07 (44:32):
From all the stories you've uncovered and the
research that you've done, whatpart which one story has
personally moved you from Walt'slife?
SPEAKER_03 (44:42):
The bankruptcy in Kansas City and the decision of
am I going to stay here, play itsafe, go get a job, regret what
happened, or am I going to takethe risk, go all in, board the
train, head to California, andgo all in with the$40 single
(45:03):
suitcase one-way ticket?
And I know when I was facing thebrain tumor and brain surgery,
that's what drove my decision.
I was all in on teaching theselessons.
I was all in and teaching thosestudents.
I knew I had already boarded thetrain.
And so when people are like, Howin the world would you risk your
(45:26):
life by putting off brainsurgery?
Because I had a$40 singlesuitcase, one-way ticket kind of
commitment.
Like I knew what I was doing, Iknew where I was going, and
there wasn't anything that wasgoing to stop me.
And so a lot of folks we talkabout it, we'll do a thing here
(45:50):
and we'll do a thing there, butit's not any kind of level of
commitment where we put all thechips on the table and wait to
see what happens on the otherside.
SPEAKER_07 (46:04):
And it worked out well for you.
It worked out well for both youand Walt.
SPEAKER_03 (46:08):
Yes.
SPEAKER_07 (46:10):
How do you feel about Disneyland's evolving, you
know, changing, changing throughthe years since Walt's time?
SPEAKER_03 (46:21):
So I'm not a fan of change.
That's a that's just apersonality thing for me.
My my mom changed the curtainsin our kitchen when I was five
years old, and I've neverforgiven her.
And she's been gone for 17 yearsnow, God rest her soul.
So, you know, the temptation isto want it to be the way that it
(46:44):
always was.
Right.
But it's not a museum, it's aliving, breathing thing.
And Walt once said, as long asthere's imagination left in the
world, Disneyland will never befinished.
And the good news in all of thatis it does keep growing, it does
keep changing, it does keepevolving.
(47:04):
We get to experience attractionsthat technologically weren't
even possible 50, 70 years ago.
SPEAKER_07 (47:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
And at the same time, and this is why I was able
to teach the history ofDisneyland course as a history
course, the park reflects what'shappening in American culture
from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s,90s, and beyond.
And so a lot of people today arelike, oh, Walt would roll over
in his grave.
Well, Walt was cremated, so Idon't know how that's possible.
(47:37):
But secondly, what Disneyland isstruggling with culturally is
exactly what we're strugglingwith across the entire country.
It's the conversation we'rehaving everywhere.
And that's been true from theday that it opened.
Go back and watch the openingday broadcast, which you can
(47:59):
easily find on YouTube, July17th, 1955.
The folks who were there reflectexactly who America wanted to
think that we were back in 1955.
Everybody's white, everybody iscoming in from church, everybody
has the perfect two and a halfkids.
(48:20):
There's no diversity, there's nointegration unless you're a
celebrity, Sammy Davis Jr., or astereotypical cast member, i.e.
Aunt Jemima.
Because this is six monthsbefore Rosa Parks refused to
give up her seat on a bus inMontgomery, Alabama.
(48:43):
That's who we were.
And the park reflects that.
SPEAKER_07 (48:46):
Do you believe the park still carries his spirit?
SPEAKER_03 (48:50):
Yes.
And so you you have to you haveto approach it in sort of a
two-pronged way.
And that is understanding thatWalt Disney was a person, an
individual who was a force ofnature.
And then the company itself is apublicly traded company that
(49:13):
answers not to the spirit andmemory of Walt, but to but to
the stockholders.
And it's been a publicly tradedcompany since the 1940s, and
Walt hated that.
I mean, part of the reason whyhe built Disneyland was so he
could form his own company andgo do his own thing because he
was so sick of the studio.
(49:34):
And he was sick of the studiobecause he was sick of having to
answer to the bottom line.
Everybody, yeah, and and to thestockholders, right?
And so, you know, there arethings that Disney does today
where I'm like, oh come on.
Really?
Seriously?
And it feels like more oftenthan not, they kind of pull Walt
(49:55):
out and prop him up in thecorner if it serves them.
Whereas otherwise they're like,yeah, whatever, we're gonna do
whatever it takes to make youknow the most money possible,
because we have stockholders toanswer to.
SPEAKER_05 (50:09):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (50:10):
And I get it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I
that I like it.
Now, having said all of that,and you know, I didn't I didn't
know Walt, I didn't work withWalt.
I have had the honor ofinterviewing in front of
hundreds of Disney fans peoplewho did work with Walt and were
hired with Walt and knew Waltwell.
(50:30):
And they'll tell you two things.
One, they never knew on anygiven day what Walt thought or
what Walt was going to do.
So this idea that, you know,those of us who never knew him
70 years later could possiblyknow what Walt would think or do
is, you know, crazy.
Because again, the people whogenuinely knew him had no clue
what he was thinking or what hewas going to do the next day.
(50:53):
But then secondly, he would beunbelievably proud that the
parks haven't just survived, butthat they've thrived.
Again, Sun never sits on aDisney park anywhere in the
world.
And he would love, like he wouldfeel so validated on an idea and
(51:17):
a dream that again his ownbrother and his own wife thought
would be bankrupt, shuttered,and forgotten in six months or
less.
And I know everybody today islike, oh my gosh, Disney's so
expensive.
And it is.
But the second complaint is it'sso damn crowded.
You wish I had that businessproblem.
(51:37):
Yeah.
Right?
SPEAKER_05 (51:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (51:39):
Yeah.
So, you know, the more theycharge, the more people seem to
want it.
And we can complain about it,but you know, when people find
out it cost a dollar back in1955, they're like, oh my gosh,
I wish it cost a dollar today.
No, you don't.
SPEAKER_07 (51:57):
It yeah, it wouldn't have half the value.
SPEAKER_03 (52:00):
The parks would close due to capacity in 15
minutes.
SPEAKER_07 (52:03):
Yeah.
My last trip to Disney as agrown adult.
The minute I stepped onto theresort, out of the bus, onto the
resort, just a huge smile.
I couldn't help it.
And and there's just somethingabout that Disney atmosphere
from the cast members.
This is outside the park.
This is at the resort.
(52:23):
It just, I don't know.
They they do it right.
And it's and it's just a greatfeeling.
And it makes you feel like a kidno matter how old you are.
Correct.
No matter how much you paid.
SPEAKER_03 (52:35):
And people are willing to pay for that
experience because it's areality that doesn't exist
outside the park or outside theWalt Disney World bubble.
SPEAKER_07 (52:44):
Is there a hidden gem in Disneyland that you think
more people should pay attentionto?
SPEAKER_03 (52:50):
There is.
When we give tours, I like tohave people stop at the end of
Main Street underneath CokeCorner.
It's an odd-shaped space, andthere's an alternating number of
red and white light bulbs, butbecause of the odd-shaped space,
there's an odd number of lightbulbs.
And so originally there were twolight bulbs next to each other
(53:12):
that were the same color, whichis not what Walt wanted, and it
drove him nuts.
And so one night, Walt went tothe maintenance yard, grabbed a
bucket of paint and apaintbrush, painted the last
light bulb, half red and halfwhite.
SPEAKER_07 (53:31):
Really?
SPEAKER_03 (53:32):
And to this day, Disney keeps one of those light
bulbs, half red and half white,in honor of Walt.
And it's a reminder that asleaders, it's great to have the
idea, it's great to have thevision, but the execution is in
the details.
SPEAKER_07 (53:48):
What a great story.
I have one last question foryou.
If you could spend one hour withWalt Disney, what would you ask
him?
Or what would you talk aboutwith him?
SPEAKER_03 (54:00):
Epcot.
So the whole reason behind WaltDisney World wasn't to build
Magic Kingdom.
Walt went on record sayingthere'll never be another
Disneyland because he hatedrepeating himself.
He didn't want to do sequels.
SPEAKER_07 (54:13):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (54:14):
He only agreed to do another Disneyland, i.e.
a Magic Kingdom, because heneeded the funds to fund Epcot,
which was not another themepark.
The original vision for Epcot,which stands for Experimental
Prototype Community of Tomorrow,it was supposed to be an actual
city.
(54:35):
And it was going to be a placewhere people lived, where people
worked, where people played.
And unfortunately, and maybethis would be what I would ask
him like, why does he have tosmoke so damn much?
But Walt died of lung cancer sixmonths before they broke ground
in Florida.
They had purchased the land, butthey hadn't broken ground.
And so Roy comes out ofretirement and spends the last
(54:57):
five years seeing the firstphase of Walt Disney World
through to fruition.
And when it comes time to doEpcot, the company's like, yeah,
we don't really know what Waltwanted here.
We have no idea how to build andhow to run a city.
We know how to do a theme park.
And so they ended up turningEpcot into another theme park.
(55:19):
It's a great theme park.
Don't get me wrong.
I love Epcot.
SPEAKER_05 (55:21):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (55:22):
But it's not the vision and the dream that Walt
wanted.
And so I would love to hear A,what does Walt think of the
Epcot that did get built?
And, you know, would he be upsetor give them a pass based
because the last film Walt everdid was the Epcot film, where he
(55:45):
talks about the land in Florida,the vision for Walt Disney
World, and everything thatEpcot's going to be.
And he says all of this is inthe planning stage, and all of
this is subject to change.
And so I would be like, okay, sohe said all of this was subject
to change.
Obviously, they changed it.
(56:05):
How do you feel about that?
Like, like, what do you think ofwhat they did versus you know
what they could have done?
Yeah.
I think that's a super curiousquestion.
SPEAKER_07 (56:15):
Yeah.
Great stuff.
I have so enjoyed my time withyou.
SPEAKER_03 (56:21):
Me too.
SPEAKER_07 (56:22):
Is there anything?
I'm gonna have a link to bothbooks, but is there anything or
any place I can send listenersto who want to learn more about
you, your course?
SPEAKER_03 (56:34):
So you can find me at thewisdomofwalt.com.
SPEAKER_07 (56:37):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (56:38):
And I encourage everyone to sign up via the
resource tab to the weeklyWednesdays with Walt blog.
It's 100% free.
You're gonna get stories fromthe Disney Park, stories from
Walt's life, stories from mineand Lindsay's life that are
going to encourage you andmotivate you, keep you moving
(57:00):
forward, make you a betterleader and make you a better
person.
SPEAKER_07 (57:03):
Ah, fantastic.
Dr.
Disneyland, thank you so muchfor your time.
I really appreciate it.
I've enjoyed it and I'veactually learned a few things
that I'm gonna now challengemyself to apply to my own story.
(57:24):
I had such a great time talkingto Dr.
Jeffrey Barnes, aka Dr.
Disneyland.
Just a phenomenal life of workthat he's put into to create his
college-acredited course, whichspawned the books and his
keynote speaking engagement.
I it was just such a pleasure totalk to him and learn more about
(57:49):
Walt Disney.
And I think the two takeawaysfrom me, from what Walt tried to
do with Disneyland is in puttingthe patrons into the story is
really becoming the hero in ourown stories.
And much like life, there'salways conflict in our stories.
(58:10):
And conflict can sometimes spawnyou into action.
And it, you know, those thosetwo points really stuck with me,
aside from the really funnystory about how Doritos were
invented.
But anyway, I hope you enjoyedmy conversation with Dr.
Disneyland.
And if you jump down to the shownotes, I'll have links to his
(58:31):
books, his website, and don'tforget to sign up for his
Wednesdays with Walt newsletter.
So that's it for this week.
Again, I hope you enjoyed thisweek's content.
If you're enjoying a sort ofconversations, please leave a
five-star written reviewwherever you download your
(58:52):
podcasts.
It helps the podcast becomevisible to others who may enjoy
this type of content.
And I would really appreciatethe boost and the help.
So again, that's it for thisweek.
I will see you in two weeks withan interview with the man
himself, Santa.
Take care, everyone.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!