Ever wondered what it takes to transform a tense negotiation into a triumphant agreement? Our latest episode features Chris Voss, former FBI negotiator and acclaimed author of "Never Split the Difference," who joins Wayne and me in an eye-opening discussion on mastering this essential skill. We delve into the real-world applications of negotiation, from sealing the deal in high-stakes real estate to ensuring harmony in our personal lives, all while maintaining integrity and steering clear of manipulation.
As the conversation unfolds, we peel back the layers of negotiation within business and real estate, unearthing the delicate balance between winning and losing. I open up about some hard-earned lessons from failed negotiations and the importance of equal contribution in partnerships. We also tackle why I choose to take the lead during real estate discussions, even with an agent by my side, and how active listening can be your secret weapon in aligning with a seller's aspirations to achieve outcomes that benefit all.
The episode wraps up with a deep dive into the nuances of negotiating value, where we recount tales from our arsenal of experiences. We discuss the finesse required to walk away from overpriced deals, the leverage in the flexibility of terms, and the untapped potential of building lasting business relationships through 'negotiating with love.' The insights shared by Chris, Wayne, and myself are not just theoretical musings but proven tactics that have shaped our professional journeys and can profoundly influence yours.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back, guys.
It's Wayne Aston here, withAston Incorporated.
I'm your host, and in studiowith me today is Dallin Aston,
my co-host.
How you feeling today?
My man Feeling amazing Goodgood.
Today we're thinking weprobably ought to get into the
big, wide world of negotiations.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Since we're talking real estate and we're talking
businesses and relationships andnegotiations is one of those
big topics that tends to blendinto everything that we talk
about in one way shape or form.
The more I have contemplatedthis dropping this episode, the
more ideas have come to minddifferent books, different
(00:44):
actual negotiations that aregoing on right now or
negotiations that have gone onas we've bought and sold
properties, negotiatedpartnerships and business splits
and rev share and like all ofit, do you want to drop some
knee jerk kind of ideas to kickthings off for us?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Sure, yeah.
Well, the first thing thatcomes to my brain is and I'm
sure this is kind of where thisis you're going to touch on this
, but never split the difference.
I know we've both read that.
Oh yeah, that's probably wherethis is coming from, but Chris
Voss.
Yeah, man, I'll tell you thatbook Negotiation gold there.
You know, our most recentepisode, we talked about how.
What book was it we weretalking about?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Obstacles yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Obstacles of the way we said that changed our life.
But, man, this one changed mylife.
I'm telling you, if we're goingto be dropping book names in
here, you ought to give it aread if you haven't read it,
because this one was superpowerful and I actually read
this one as I was setting up myfirst, the deal.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
My first deal yeah.
First investment propertyacquisition yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, I read that book during while that was
happening and it ended up goingreally nicely and in no way
shape or form, in my opinion, isbeing a successful negotiator.
It's not manipulating or takingadvantage of the other party,
it's being strategic with howyou approach the negotiation,
(02:14):
Absolutely.
I mean there are tactics thatcan make it really good and
we'll talk about that.
But man, that book is powerful.
I just to kind of elaborate onthat.
I think of one scene, if youwill, from the book where he
goes in the car dealership with30 grand and he's going to buy
his new truck, the red, that redorange.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I think it was a Toyota Tacoma or something.
I can't remember what it was,but yeah, he goes in there and
it was what?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
it was like 40 grand or something like that.
Yeah, he was like hey, I've got30 bucks, 30 grand cash.
Yeah, I'll buy it right now.
And they're like what?
They go back Let me talk to themanager goes back, comes out
and is like you're in luck, Ican do 36 and he says and I hate
car negotiations, man, that isthe worst walking to a car
dealership.
Well, and it's funny because youhave that perspective of man I
(03:03):
hate the car dealerships, thatyou know that pressure, the
negotiation, all that stuff.
But he says, well, how do youexpect me to do that?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
That's one of the key .
That's one of the key tactics.
How am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
that.
Well, how am I supposed to dothat?
And I have 30?
Grand and the guy's like okay,give me two seconds, he comes
back.
And he comes back, and he's,and he, he comes back.
He's like, okay, we can do 34.
And he's like I don't know,like I can just go down the
street and I'm sure they'll giveme one.
And he's like, oh, wait, wait,wait.
And he goes back and comes backand he gives him a note the
same thing.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, written on paper with a smile.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
He slides him a note and he opens it and says you win
32.
And he's like this is amazing.
Thank you so much this is likemy dream car.
I love this, but I don't, Ican't do it.
He gets them down eight grandor whatever the number was.
And he's like I still can't, Ican't.
I love this.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Thank you so much, but I'll just go down the street
and he's like no, the guy runsback and gives it to him for 30.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
How crazy is that he walks away with what he wanted.
Like that that is the power ofwhat we're talking about with
this book.
I mean, that is insane.
That's obviously an extremeexample.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh yeah but, and it takes some brass knuckle like
nerve man to to sit and do thatBecause it's so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
When I read that I was just laughing.
I was like is this real?
Did this actually happen?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's hilarious.
And I've tested that with car,because you know we we've traded
some cars in the last few yearsand I've read that book a few
times and I've tested that inthe dealership.
And there's some dealershipslike especially the used car
dealerships, because I don'tlike to buy a brand new car, I
like to buy one that's only gota, you know, 15 to 30,000 miles,
(04:50):
lightly used, nearly new.
But you know I don't like totake that big hit of the brand
new thing.
Right, okay, and we're talkingabout daily drivers, guys, not
Lamborghinis.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So yeah, I'm just talking about getting a good
value.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So, so the used car dealerships?
Man, they're ruthless but,there are some car dealerships
now and they've been more openabout this in recent
conversations, like in the lastyear, about how they're changing
their tactics.
They're getting away from thishigh pressure sales tactic
because it's so commonly likedisregarded, like it's so
(05:27):
commonly like hated by everyone.
Right, they just you don't evenwant to walk on the lot because
they're hunting you on thestocking you out on that lot.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
You can't even look at a car without them stalking
you.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So the one of the one of the first things I'd have
everyone consider Is that andthis actually goes back to one
of the recent episodes theperspective determines action,
and when we're in a negotiationwith someone in any of these
categories, we've got toconsider the circumstances and
(06:04):
what their mind state is.
So you know, if someone'samygdala is firing off and
they're triggered and they'reangry or scared or something
like that, the likelihood we'regoing to speak to them logically
and have a logical outcome issuper low.
You just you have to know thatif they're triggered and the
amygdala is firing, then it'snot a rational conversation,
(06:25):
it's a different situation, andso can we, can we focus on the
negotiation and avoiding thembeing triggered?
That's one major consideration.
But then the otherconsideration is is keeping in
mind that it's not always aboutdriving the best bargain, Like
(06:47):
it's not about cutting someone'sthroat in a negotiation and
getting squeezing every drop ofblood out of the turnip.
That, to me, is archaic andit's not loving and it's not the
way things typically need to be.
I mean, it's not my favoriteway of doing it.
There are power negotiatorsthat are good at that, but
(07:11):
that's not how I negotiate.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's all I'm saying .
It makes me think of and I'd becurious to get your thoughts on
this, but in Never Split theDifference he talks about how,
in a hostage negotiation, he'sgetting these guys to make to
feel comfortable with prison.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And they come out and they're like, oh my gosh, this
is the path, and it's likeyou're going to prison.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's right.
How do you?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
you know, he's negotiated them into a scenario
where prison feels like the bestoption for them.
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So that's so.
Let's talk about that one,because that's maybe the most
extreme and super relevant pieceof the whole negotiation thing
If it's on the one side of thespectrum.
If we're talking about hostagenegotiation, why did Chris Voss
name the book Never Split theDifference?
Well, because if there's sixpeople that are hostages, it's a
(08:06):
failing negotiation.
If, yeah, let's just meet inthe middle here and you keep six
and we'll take six or three andthree.
Three die and we get three back.
That's a total failure.
So in a hostage negotiation, theonly way to win that
negotiation is with all of thehostages being released.
So it's a very black and whiteoutcome and in business and in
(08:31):
real estate and in relationships, I've never experienced
anything with that black andwhite.
Where it has to go that way,there always feels like there
can be some give and take.
And I'm not advocating thatlet's meet in the middle by any
means here, because I think if Iidentify myself on the spectrum
(08:53):
, I definitely fall closer toChris Voss.
I've never split the differenceon the spectrum.
I fall closer to that extremeon the spectrum but I'm not.
I've lost so many negotiationsbecause I haven't been aware and
I just haven't known how todeal with this, and so I've
gotten the short end of thestick more than not Okay.
(09:16):
So again, the School of HardKnox has spent my teacher over
27 years and losing lots ofnegotiations.
Some of the worst failures havecome down to having
partnerships with people who aretakers and not producers, who
come in and negotiate this bigsplit and I say, yeah, we're
(09:37):
getting along really great rightnow, let's be partners.
And then six months a year inthey just sit on their ass all
day long, or on their farm orwherever they are, and they do
nothing.
And so now resentment builds upand all kinds of problems come
from that.
So like, let's bring it backinto the hostage, negotiation
(09:59):
and the mindset.
So one of my prevailing, one ofmy guiding philosophies in
negotiation is I'm literallytrying to get a win-win.
That doesn't mean we're meetingin the middle, but I want all
parties in a negotiation to feellike they're winning.
And to your point.
When Chris Voss brings up theterrorist who's comfortable
going to prison, well, he'sfeeling like he's winning
(10:22):
because he's not getting shot todeath, because that's one of
the options, and he's not beingtortured, and there's probably a
handful of other possibilitiesin all of this.
But negotiating a guy in ahostage situation who's filled
with anxiety and fear, totallytriggered the whole time, to be
(10:43):
able to talk them down to that,means you're giving concessions.
You're making concessions.
So, as we're making concessionsin here with the intent to get
what we want and also giveterrorists what he wants, which
is life, because freedom's nownot on the table, we've got to
(11:04):
have them feel comfortable withus.
We have to establish arelationship of trust.
There's some authenticity inthat, and Chris Voss talks a lot
about integrity and thenegotiation.
If he's negotiating terms withsomeone, with a terrorist, and
they're making promises aboutdoing something they better do,
(11:25):
I mean they are committed tomaking those things happen.
And if they don't, theyacknowledge how badly that
negotiation can turn, andquickly.
So when you're dealing withlife and death negotiations and
like with the hostages, youcan't afford to not be an
integrity.
You could get everyone killed.
If you say, yeah, we're gonnahave a helicopter waiting here
and there'll be no one out thereand we'll have your money and
(11:47):
you make all those bigcommitments and then you don't
do that, boom, everybody dies,and the FBI in many instances.
Chris in the book talks aboutFBI failing in their
negotiations, where everybodydies.
So the FBI and law enforcementofficials have also learned
through the School of HardKnocks what works, what doesn't
(12:10):
work, and their negotiationtactics have changed
dramatically over the years.
And I like that, because I likethat integrity gets to be one of
the pillars of a successfulnegotiation, because I like to
perform, I like to show someonewhat I can do.
Talk's cheap, but if I can showyou here's what we're doing and
(12:35):
then I do it, it makes theperson I'm negotiating with see
that we're not just talking.
They can see that we have thepower to execute something.
We have the authority to makethose commitments in the first
place, cause we've just comethrough.
And so these are some ideas I'mjust throwing out there for
(12:56):
consideration.
Okay, so let's talk about realestate negotiations here
specifically, cause I think, ifa lot of our listeners are
probably thinking about goingout and maybe trying to
duplicate what you're doing byan Airbnb, the first step is
you're gonna get on, you'regonna get on realtorcom, you're
gonna get online, you're gonnafind a property in an area you
(13:18):
like and then you're going toengage a seller whether they're
selling for sale by owner,you're gonna engage their real
estate agent.
Right, and you might have areal estate agent to be
negotiating for you.
But a lot of the time, even ifI have an agent representing me,
I like to head the negotiation.
I'm not comfortable with thereal estate agent negotiating in
(13:40):
my behalf because Most of thetime, they're just not trained
in any of the tactics or thementality and they certainly
almost never understand my, myideal outcomes.
So understanding the idealoutcomes means that I can.
I can give and take on the flyin the negotiation.
This is why I'm preferring youknow, spearheading my own
(14:04):
negotiation.
So, guys, in real estate youalways have two categories you
have price and you have terms.
Rarely do we get both.
If we get both were we'refortunate right, it's a really
good day to to make an offer andget the price you want and the
terms you want.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Okay, okay, yeah following this yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Let's go back to you.
Know you negotiating?
You know two condos and MoabDid.
Were you able to get price andterms of what you on your offer?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Man, yeah, I mean, we weed.
That was a.
That was a crazy deal, and themore that I talk with you about
it, the more I talk with Annieabout it's like that was an
anomaly.
Yeah, that the more I realizehow you know, unique that
situation was, first andforemost, I got the price I
wanted because they weren't evenbuilt yet.
(15:00):
Yeah, and there's a bigadvantage to get the price,
because they they knew that theywere not going to get the price
.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
They knew they couldn't deliver it today and
you write it today, so there's aconcession.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
It would have been totally different if they were
built turnkey already.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Totally right, and so you're willing to come in and
take some building exposure.
That's extra risk.
You're right right and extratime.
So I guess to your point.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
It wasn't, I guess, perfect, because I would have
loved to just buy him and thenturnkey him right there, yeah,
so I had to wait eight, ninemonths for them to be finished
being built.
So that's part of the term partof the terms.
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess, if we really thinkabout this in this conversation,
they weren't I'm like it wasn'tamazing terms because of that
(15:48):
building, but it was still likeFlash forward the eight months.
Oh, it was great.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah, right, well, you were the plan you were
looking at it and you win to thedeal with the awareness that
this is going to be aConstruction process right part
of the plan, right?
It's part of the terms thatthey need a certain amount of
time.
Yeah, so inside of time, guys,or, excuse me, inside of the
terms, part of this equationtime is always one and time can
(16:14):
be broken into multiple piecesof a real estate negotiation.
There's multiple deadlines in anoffer.
So if you make an offer, likeyou did, you're gonna have a due
diligence deadline.
How fast can you Understand theproperty and the cash flow and
the market?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah well enough to close on it that you have to
find all of those things outduring due diligence, and that
was another interesting thing.
I guess, as we as we talk aboutthis, it makes me understand
what you're asking a little bitbetter.
You know, cuz mine we put inthe non-refundable or we put in
the earnest money.
It went non-refundable twomonths later, yeah, but we still
had six months until theproperty was finished.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah.
So in that first two monthsbefore the due, before your
earnest money went hard,non-refundable, you were able to
get your head around thecertainty you were able to find
certainty that you were going toclose as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, not absolute right now.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I remember that the financing was not certain at
that point.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
No, in fact, my scenario was Incredibly unique.
But I mean, as you said acouple times throughout the show
, it's like, as a developer, Ifeel like in this world as well,
nothing ever goes exactlyaccording to plan.
Yeah, and I experienced that.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, okay in this construction space it's.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
it's a oh man, it's an exaggerated situation.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Right well, and yeah, it's a good environment.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Where the earnest money is now non-refundable.
It's like well, now I have tolike, yeah, I have to close or
lose the earnest, or lose theearnest.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, you got.
Yeah, you got real exposure.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I don't want to lose your money.
Yeah so what do I have to do tomake it close?
And you know you have lenderspull out and you have, anyway,
it's, it's.
There's a lot that goes into it.
Yeah so I guess to your point,then you know when you're gonna,
when you're negotiating, thereis the price, I got the great
price, yeah, but then that termof that timing, with that
(18:08):
non-refundable earnest money,with all those things, it was
like oh boy.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Oh boy, right, I'd have you consider to that.
Your negotiation process endedwhen you accepted the contract
and they accepted the contract.
Yeah, when you reach thataccord, that's when the go, the
negotiation is over, and thenthe contract dictates what those
terms are that you negotiatedso the negotiation window
(18:32):
happens in the Hell.
I'm in negotiations right nowthat have been going on for six
months over business structureand capitalization Structure.
Some negotiations like on onland or a property, like that
could take a week.
Yeah, you know, if it look, ifsomeone's look, if someone is
(18:53):
has a property listed on themultiple listing service, you
already know they want to sell,so that's already agreed.
So now you can.
You can approach that with anunderstanding that they are open
to selling.
I'm knocking on doors Talkingto farmers who I don't know if
they want to sell.
They've owned land for a hundredyears in the family whoa and
(19:15):
I'm approaching them cold,trying to just build a
relationship and help themunderstand what I'm doing and
understand what they want.
And it's a totally differentconversation because we're not
talking about can I buy yourland today.
I'm trying to understand theirlong-term goals.
If they've held land for ahundred years in a trust with
(19:37):
family and they're a second orthird generation landholder, the
motivation behind sellinganything could be different for
everyone.
Again, perspective determinesbehavior.
So it's critical in myexperience, to really have ears
to hear.
Being a good negotiator meansyou have great listening skills.
(20:01):
That might be one of the biggestpoints of what does it?
take to be a great negotiator.
Well, I know what I want, butthe more I can listen and absorb
what the seller wants and needs.
Sometimes needs is a real thing.
Like, for example, if I'mtrying to buy that condo that
you're talking about in Moab,but they have underlying debt
(20:23):
and there's a maturity date onthe debt in three months, well,
that will drive what they need.
It'll say that they have toclose in 90 days before the
maturity date and they, you know, I mean, that's an example.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
They're more motivated.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
They're more motivated, or if it's paid off
and there's no debt.
You don't have that samepressure, totally different
terms.
So when we talk about terms,you have the pricing, you have
your due diligence deadlines,you have your closing timeframes
, you have a financing deadline.
All of these things we want topre-consider before we enter a
(21:01):
negotiation.
We want to know what we can dobefore we enter the negotiation,
and so a lot of time I'll modelthe whole deal Like I'll
spreadsheet the deal andunderstand what the potential of
the deal could be to buy thisland or buy that condo or buy
this business.
We have one business that we'rein the process of evaluation on
(21:22):
buying a business and it's aneight million dollar roughly
deal here.
And you know how do we, how dowe value these assets and value
this, and that's a wholedifferent process.
And so time, a lot of the time,time for me is more valuable
than the price.
In fact, to give you, to giveyou a real time example I have I
(21:48):
have a land negotiationhappening right now on several
hundred acres, and so I recentlypurchased land in the area for
X dollars per acre and it's agood price per acre.
I purchased that land and thenI'm looking at this other land
(22:09):
that's close by and so I hadmade an offer for the same price
per acre and the landownerbalked at it and was like, no,
no, we need, we need a lot morethan that.
I mean it's like 10 times moreworth.
And I'm like, well, really, whyis it worth 10 times more?
Well, because we can developthis, you know, on our own and
(22:29):
do this.
So all of a sudden they're adeveloper.
So what that tells me in thisnegotiation is they have a
better sense of future, futurevalue that doesn't necessarily
present today value.
So then I gently kind of pushback and I say well, today it's
only worth X, because in orderto get me through the
(22:53):
development phases of youtalking about the value you want
, we'd have to rezone it, we'dhave to annex it into the city,
we'd have to get theentitlements complete.
Each of those layers have extracost and exposure to me.
And if I check those boxes off,or you check them off before I
buy it, well then it's worthmore.
But today, it's not worth that.
(23:14):
So there's an education processthat happens with a land
negotiation for a developer and,at the same time, finding an
arrangement that makes them feellike we're all winning.
Okay, I want, I really wanteveryone that I'm negotiating
with to be excited about it.
If they're selling to me, Iwant them to feel like they're
(23:36):
getting a great deal.
If they're feeling like I'mscrewing them, that's not what I
want to do.
That's different for a lot ofnegotiations or people.
We talk about the money and therelationships people.
I'd rather have relationshipsand I can figure out how to
structure things over time withthe right terms to help someone
(23:58):
get more of what they want toneed, and so I'm very strategic
about that.
In a business negotiation,there's a lot of factors like
like who's going to guaranteethe loans, who's got the track
record, who's going to bring thecapital, who's going to be the
operator, who's going to bringthe potential contracts for all
(24:20):
of the materials and procurement, like who has the relationship.
So there's all these categoriesand when we're negotiating in a
big partnership structuredsituation, all of these moving
parts are at play.
So it's really therelationships is, again the most
(24:41):
important thing to me in anegotiation.
Now, if we go back to ourextreme side of the spectrum,
one major point of power in anegotiation is you've got to be
willing to walk.
(25:01):
Okay, getting emotionallyattached to that Toyota, that
orange Toyota, you have to havethe Toyota.
If you can't walk out of thedealership and forget about it,
you're going to lose thenegotiation.
Okay.
But if you can really belogical and detach your emotions
from it and I'm talking aboutany negotiation here where we're
(25:22):
buying land or buying a condoor buying a car we're doing a
business I have to be so secureabout myself and what I can do
with or without this thing thatI'm negotiating for.
And so the mentality behind thatis it'll be awesome if I can
get this, but if I can't, it'snot going to kill my operation,
(25:45):
it's not going to kill my wholeoutlook for the year, right.
So I like to have backups, Ilike to have multiple
possibilities, which is why Inegotiate multiple parcels of
land anywhere.
Anywhere I'm at, I'm talking todifferent landowners and I'm
trying to hedge myself so Idon't have to be pinned into
(26:08):
that one landowner who wants toexploit me, because they might
be only money driven.
They really don't give a flyingfuck about me and my goals.
They just want that money.
And you know that's aninteresting that brings up an
interesting example of whathappened in Moab.
I forgot about this one, but webought the first, so Sage Creek
(26:31):
was an.
It's currently an eight acreit's an eight acre site and we
bought the first piece, whichwas only 2.3 acres.
Okay, we got a good deal forthat one.
I mean, it was like it was likea couple hundred thousand
dollars.
And pretty soon everyone intown heard about what we might
be doing and so we had neighborsapproaching us.
(26:53):
Pretty soon we we had one pieceright next to us under contract
and it was almost triple theprice still not quite a million.
Then we get the other neighboron the other end of us and she
was a real estate agent and shewas maybe smarter than her own,
(27:14):
smarter than her own good, andshe, she tried to finagle a deal
with us for a multi-milliondollar price tag that was
contingent on her appraisergiving us an appraisal.
Okay, so, side note foreveryone in negotiation, it
doesn't matter what the sellersays about the value, the
(27:34):
seller's opinion of value, as itmeans nothing to me as a buyer.
You have to disregard that.
A buyer has to have their ownvalue, their own understanding
of value.
It's only worth X to me becauseof what I know I can do with
the property, and perspectivedetermines behavior, and so the
buyer and seller always haveopposing, sometimes polar
(27:57):
opposite, opinions about valueInteresting.
So whenever a seller is sayingyeah, I'll have my appraiser do
an appraisal and we'll give youthe well you just throw that in
the garbage shredder, becausethe seller's appraiser is gonna
pad that number and they'regonna give you some trumped up
inflated value.
That's exactly what happened.
Now I was negotiating multiplepieces at the same time, so when
(28:21):
she attempted to do this, Isaid you know what that's like
more than double of what I thinkit's worth and thanks.
I appreciate your time.
Cancel the contract, got myearnest money back and guess
what?
She's still sitting there withher house and nothing ever
happened.
In the meantime I went andbought the other piece the other
(28:41):
side of the property.
We got the three pieces and webuilt the resort.
So she could have cashed out ifshe'd have been reasonable, but
she overcommitted to her herkind of misguided understanding
of value, and that's prettycommon.
So you have to be willing towalk and you can only walk if
you've got backups.
That's easy with a car becauseyou could be negotiating 10
(29:03):
dealerships and you're gonna sayoh, I'll go down the street,
just like Chris Voss did.
You've got a backup plan, right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well see, then I would almost ask the question
like, okay, what if hers was theonly plot of land to do?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
it, yeah.
So then I'd shift gears.
Then I'd shift gears from priceand say, okay, that price, I
have to have the land.
The price is non-negotiable.
I think it's worth.
She thinks it's worth twice asmuch.
I'm gonna shift gears to termsnow, and what I would have
probably done with her if shewould have been open to it is I
probably said, hey, you knowwhat, I'll give you your price,
(29:37):
but we'll do a structured deal.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I'll get you half now .
Speaker 1 (29:41):
we'll get you another half in 24 months, or another
piece in a year and anotherpiece in another year, and
you'll let me, you'll work withme to get through the
entitlement exposure, the zoningexposure and the development
exposure of having my siteapproved because keep in mind at
that point when I wasnegotiating, that the city
(30:01):
hadn't approved my plan.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So as a developer.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I'm flying under certain presumptions that the
city will approve my planbecause it was already zoned out
for what I needed and Iunderstood clearly what the
density and the requirements thecity would have on me.
So I was comfortable enough tonegotiate and start buying land
in parcels like that Interesting.
But that's what I would havedone.
(30:25):
I would have just shifted toterms.
Now I have a negotiation that'sactive right now.
That is a very similarsituation.
It's a neighboring parcel.
They think they can develop itjust as well as I can.
I say well, go ahead and havefun with it.
But you might consider thatcash in hand today, if I can
(30:48):
work terms out with you, I couldshow you a way to put more in
your pocket and you give me myterms.
And what does that look like?
That's exactly what I just laidout.
For the Moab thing.
It was okay, I'm gonna give youyour price because you're today
, you think it's worth more, andthat is the situation.
And when I talk about thispiece down south, I bought the
(31:10):
land per acre.
On this, this one, I'mnegotiating.
They want three, four times peracre for it.
But it's raw land.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It's not worth that.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Keep in mind, guys.
When you establish value onsomething, it means what's
someone willing to pay for it?
So when I bought a 151 acres atX per acre, I just set the
actual value of that raw land inthat area.
That is the value Now until Icomplete my zoning and my
(31:42):
entitlement and my site plan,move it through all that
exposure, then the value goes up, but that doesn't mean the
neighboring properties go up,because the neighboring
properties don't have all thatwork.
So, guys, we're talking, we'rereally kind of covering, we're
covering real estate developmentin a lot of ways, because I'm
(32:03):
talking through the negotiationsthat a real estate developer
has on an everyday basis.
But this is valuable for anyonein any negotiation.
So terms is maybe the mostflexible way to create a win-win
Get what I want, give them whatthey want and use time, use
(32:28):
structure.
And I won't even go into all ofthe ways today for the sake of
the episode on how to do that.
I'm just trying to convey aphilosophical point that I don't
have to drive the hard bargainand I can be, and you know it
takes a lot of.
You have to set ego aside whenyou're negotiating too, because
(32:51):
it's really easy for someone tocome back and say their property
is worth four times what itreally is today and have you not
be triggered and have that kneejerk.
So remember, guys, lead withlove.
So love, if you can have lovebe part of the negotiation, then
I just have you consider you'recreating an opportunity with a
(33:12):
landowner or a condo owner,someone that you might have an
opportunity to do futurebusiness with, if they feel
satisfied and I feel satisfiedand we all won in this process.
Word of mouth travels.
Reputation management iscrucial for me.
I mean, my reputation is worthmore than the money or the land,
and so how did I get there?
(33:34):
The how is a big deal for me.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So what would you say are best practices of getting
there?
Right if you had to say so,like for me, for example.
I'm sitting here and listeningto this.
I'm like, okay, you wannalisten?
Listening is super important.
You're leading with love, butcould you break it down for us,
(33:59):
cause you're doing this active.
What are things that I couldtake, that a listener could take
, like the top three, top fivebest practices for negotiating,
and whether that's terms orthat's price, whatever, and
whether that's real estatedevelopment, buying a condo,
buying a car, whatever whatwould you say are the top cause?
You're talking about the how.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah well, let's talk about it.
Alan, I appreciate thatquestion that has multiple
answers.
This will be good, I think, toclarify so ears to hear that's a
critical piece of mindset goinginto it.
A lot of people have read orheard these archaic tactical
cliches never be the first tospeak the price, okay.
(34:44):
Well, that's a frustratingthing.
I have a business negotiationhappening right now.
These guys for months refuse tosay the price Really and that's
frustrating.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And so what do I do?
Anchor low Chris Voss talksabout this, you set an anchor.
Now when I go into the landnegotiation I'm setting an
anchor.
Now there's low balling you'veheard about that where you just
throw some arbitrary dumb numberat someone and that can really
offend them.
Or you can use data and back upthat low anchor so that in real
(35:18):
estate, if you're talking aboutcondos, you're gonna go get
comparables and you're gonnasubmit with your offer five
comparables.
Here's why I'm offering thislow number and it's not low to
me.
This is what it's worth.
They might think it's low, butI'm not afraid to go set an
anchor and that helps themmentally check into where I'm at
(35:39):
Now.
In one of the negotiations onland that I had, I sent an offer
and it was like under a millionand they came back and said, oh
man, I mean we had this wholesite like parceled up for like
over a thousand homes and I meanthe price is like closer to 20
million and it's like.
(36:02):
So now Ego wants to jump in andsay how foolish that is.
And you have to soft pedalyourself.
I soft pedal myself and I say,okay, I consider their
perspective, I consider wherethey're getting their valuation
from, and then I start to shiftgears into terms, because that
(36:26):
price and I'll be clear, I'lltell them hey, that price is way
more than I'll pay I mean I donot agree with that price.
So again, integrity.
Yeah, I'm not playing games innegotiations.
I'm not sitting here like makingyou guess what I think it's
worth Okay we don't have to playsome mental game, because
that's frustrating and I thinkit's disrespectful.
(36:46):
So, I'm, I risk if I respect youor I can I have an opportunity
to show you respect by being anintegrity.
That means I'm shootingstraight.
So that means if I give you alow anchored number, it's backed
up with data.
There's a reason why I comewith that number now, when they
counter to this 20 times what Isay it's worth.
Now we're gonna talk about moredata.
(37:07):
I'm gonna consider theirperspective.
I'm going to offer them respectand Not just eviscerate them
verbally, because that's thenatural reaction.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
We want to.
You want to say, you want totell them you're out of your
mind.
20 million stupid.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
But you so.
So now you now.
Now I go into the delicate, themore delicate.
This is the actual negotiation,because we've got numbers
flying around, we, we havetiming flying around.
So now it's up to me to toreally model and sharpen my
pencil and figure out how much Ican pay, and Is there any way I
(37:46):
can pay more and get closer totheir number without me losing
some way, some, oh, somewherealong the line?
So now I'm really going into an, an integrity, a process of
Back to the drawing board,sharpening my pencil, looking at
that number and then trying tounderstand terms that I could
(38:07):
offer, and a lot of times It'llbe land options or a land
contract, and I'll come back andsay, hey, why don't I take down
10 acres now?
You get a cash now.
Then we can start movingthrough entitlement zoning.
If I can check those milestonesand I can get you another big
chunk, and, and when they cansee that I'm really working to
(38:28):
use my own unique skills Toimprove the land value, a lot of
the time they'll see that it'sgoing to be way easier for them
to take the money and the dealnow with me, because I'm an
experienced operator, I knowwhat I'm doing, I know what I
can do, and they're sitting here.
They've played a mental gamewith me.
Well, we'll just develop itourselves.
(38:49):
They're not developers.
That's a bluff.
And if they want to bedevelopers, there's a learning
curve that will take them 10years to get through, to get to
the level that I'm at, to beable to execute Something like
that.
Yeah you don't just turn into adeveloper overnight and to go
develop a few hundred acresEffectively.
You will lose money in theprocess, and so I want to help
(39:10):
them.
Without offending them andbeing respectful to them, I want
to help them find the win andget the value the best value
they can, at their property.
So that's in a nutshell, how Ibreak that down.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So I want to kind of just spitit back to you.
Kind of what I'm hearing hereis you know, you obviously want
to listen, but at the end of theday it really tight.
It really boils down toconsidering their perspective
and then, with integrity andrespect, outlining, you know,
(39:46):
beginning really really specificon what you can and can't do
and it's sticking to it.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yep, avoid the nabulous broad strokes.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
You cannot you cannot become desperate.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Because the second you become desperate is where
you lose.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, is it kind of like telling me that that would
desperation and negation forsure?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
So essentially what I'm hearing here is you're
saying, like you know, if youcan go into this logically and
with only Calculated look, thisis as much as I'm willing to go.
If it's more than that, thenyou have to be willing to walk
away.
That's huge, yeah.
And then two is maybe you canafford to pay a little bit more
(40:25):
If you can control terms, if youcan balance it out with that
other side yep, Find the otherbenefits to me and right yeah
because there's inherent valuethere too.
Yep right.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Very interesting now final thought, before we wrap
the episode down, is when wetalk about relationships like
interpersonal relationships,like you know, with my wife, or
with kids, or friends and family, it's a different situation.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Okay, does this apply right?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
can apply in many ways.
But but I'd have everyoneconsider that if I'm negotiating
something with my wife, it is away more delicate.
There's got to be even morerespect, more compassion and
more effort and thought given toher feelings, her needs and her
Mental state.
(41:14):
So I'm not trying to negotiate,you know, going to spend money
on this thing like let's go getsome patio furniture, when she's
stressing out about this thingover here.
So picking the time from thenegotiation is critical and then
and then contemplating andunderstanding how I present it
(41:35):
and being much more in thewin-win.
If I can really give her whatshe wants and needs, then I win.
So it's a different like I'mwilling to give a lot more in an
interpersonal relationshipbecause it's where it's a
long-term Relationship building.
It's not just a piece of landand once I buy it, they
potentially I never talked tothem again but someone I really,
(41:57):
really want to establish andbuild relationships with and I'm
going to give a lot more.
And I'm going to give withoutexpectation of it being
reciprocated.
Because now I'm getting intodepositing political capital.
I'm building up my bank accountof political capital.
You can call it differentthings, but political capital
gives me.
It gives me the, the power andthe ability to negotiate certain
(42:20):
things, but but.
But giving without theexpectation is a big piece in an
interpersonal negotiation.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
So let me ask you this, and maybe this is a whole
nother conversation aboutrelationships but when you say
that it's like okay if you'regiving without expectation, if,
if your partner does not feelthe same, you know, is there a
point where it's too much andand what.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
You see what I'm trying to ask?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Because if you I can, and again, I'm not.
You know, I'm not currently inthe relationship like that and
so I'm not speak.
I'm curious, and I think a lotof the listeners might be
curious as well.
It's like man, if you're justgiving, giving, giving yeah,
you'll get worn out, You'reright.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
So what's that?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
So, you know, I think maybe something we all need to
consider is like what's thebalance?
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah right?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, because if one party is doing the give with no
expectation, yeah, it's not,it's not sustained.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yeah, that's a, that's a whole, nother episode,
that's a relationship.
We will definitely continue onthat.
Yeah because that's a big one.
That's a big conversation.
I know the listeners will wantto hear more on this and I've
got a lot more to contributeabout that.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
So let's wrap it up for now.
Yeah, let's get, let's get that.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
We're gonna actually add that to the list of one of
the upcoming episodes.
Let's do it and for now, guys,thanks for chiming in.
Please share this with yourfriends, family, anyone that
might be wanting to start abusiness, get into Airbnb
business or, you know, startinga portfolio.
This is for you guys.
We're just trying to inspireyou guys and give you some tools
For your success.
(43:58):
So thank you for listening andwe'll catch you on the next one.
You
Welcome back, guys.
It's Wayne Aston here, withAston Incorporated.
I'm your host, and in studiowith me today is Dallin Aston,
my co-host.
How you feeling today?
My man Feeling amazing Goodgood.
Today we're thinking weprobably ought to get into the
big, wide world of negotiations.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Since we're talking real estate and we're talking
businesses and relationships andnegotiations is one of those
big topics that tends to blendinto everything that we talk
about in one way shape or form.
The more I have contemplatedthis dropping this episode, the
more ideas have come to minddifferent books, different
(00:44):
actual negotiations that aregoing on right now or
negotiations that have gone onas we've bought and sold
properties, negotiatedpartnerships and business splits
and rev share and like all ofit, do you want to drop some
knee jerk kind of ideas to kickthings off for us?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Sure, yeah.
Well, the first thing thatcomes to my brain is and I'm
sure this is kind of where thisis you're going to touch on this
, but never split the difference.
I know we've both read that.
Oh yeah, that's probably wherethis is coming from, but Chris
Voss.
Yeah, man, I'll tell you thatbook Negotiation gold there.
You know, our most recentepisode, we talked about how.
What book was it we weretalking about?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Obstacles yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Obstacles of the way we said that changed our life.
But, man, this one changed mylife.
I'm telling you, if we're goingto be dropping book names in
here, you ought to give it aread if you haven't read it,
because this one was superpowerful and I actually read
this one as I was setting up myfirst, the deal.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
My first deal yeah.
First investment propertyacquisition yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, I read that book during while that was
happening and it ended up goingreally nicely and in no way
shape or form, in my opinion, isbeing a successful negotiator.
It's not manipulating or takingadvantage of the other party,
it's being strategic with howyou approach the negotiation,
(02:14):
Absolutely.
I mean there are tactics thatcan make it really good and
we'll talk about that.
But man, that book is powerful.
I just to kind of elaborate onthat.
I think of one scene, if youwill, from the book where he
goes in the car dealership with30 grand and he's going to buy
his new truck, the red, that redorange.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I think it was a Toyota Tacoma or something.
I can't remember what it was,but yeah, he goes in there and
it was what?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
it was like 40 grand or something like that.
Yeah, he was like hey, I've got30 bucks, 30 grand cash.
Yeah, I'll buy it right now.
And they're like what?
They go back Let me talk to themanager goes back, comes out
and is like you're in luck, Ican do 36 and he says and I hate
car negotiations, man, that isthe worst walking to a car
dealership.
Well, and it's funny because youhave that perspective of man I
(03:03):
hate the car dealerships, thatyou know that pressure, the
negotiation, all that stuff.
But he says, well, how do youexpect me to do that?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
That's one of the key .
That's one of the key tactics.
How am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
that.
Well, how am I supposed to dothat?
And I have 30?
Grand and the guy's like okay,give me two seconds, he comes
back.
And he comes back, and he's,and he, he comes back.
He's like, okay, we can do 34.
And he's like I don't know,like I can just go down the
street and I'm sure they'll giveme one.
And he's like, oh, wait, wait,wait.
And he goes back and comes backand he gives him a note the
same thing.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yeah, written on paper with a smile.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
He slides him a note and he opens it and says you win
32.
And he's like this is amazing.
Thank you so much this is likemy dream car.
I love this, but I don't, Ican't do it.
He gets them down eight grandor whatever the number was.
And he's like I still can't, Ican't.
I love this.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Thank you so much, but I'll just go down the street
and he's like no, the guy runsback and gives it to him for 30.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
How crazy is that he walks away with what he wanted.
Like that that is the power ofwhat we're talking about with
this book.
I mean, that is insane.
That's obviously an extremeexample.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Oh yeah but, and it takes some brass knuckle like
nerve man to to sit and do thatBecause it's so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
When I read that I was just laughing.
I was like is this real?
Did this actually happen?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's hilarious.
And I've tested that with car,because you know we we've traded
some cars in the last few yearsand I've read that book a few
times and I've tested that inthe dealership.
And there's some dealershipslike especially the used car
dealerships, because I don'tlike to buy a brand new car, I
like to buy one that's only gota, you know, 15 to 30,000 miles,
(04:50):
lightly used, nearly new.
But you know I don't like totake that big hit of the brand
new thing.
Right, okay, and we're talkingabout daily drivers, guys, not
Lamborghinis.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
So yeah, I'm just talking about getting a good
value.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So, so the used car dealerships?
Man, they're ruthless but,there are some car dealerships
now and they've been more openabout this in recent
conversations, like in the lastyear, about how they're changing
their tactics.
They're getting away from thishigh pressure sales tactic
because it's so commonly likedisregarded, like it's so
(05:27):
commonly like hated by everyone.
Right, they just you don't evenwant to walk on the lot because
they're hunting you on thestocking you out on that lot.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
You can't even look at a car without them stalking
you.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So the one of the one of the first things I'd have
everyone consider Is that andthis actually goes back to one
of the recent episodes theperspective determines action,
and when we're in a negotiationwith someone in any of these
categories, we've got toconsider the circumstances and
(06:04):
what their mind state is.
So you know, if someone'samygdala is firing off and
they're triggered and they'reangry or scared or something
like that, the likelihood we'regoing to speak to them logically
and have a logical outcome issuper low.
You just you have to know thatif they're triggered and the
amygdala is firing, then it'snot a rational conversation,
(06:25):
it's a different situation, andso can we, can we focus on the
negotiation and avoiding thembeing triggered?
That's one major consideration.
But then the otherconsideration is is keeping in
mind that it's not always aboutdriving the best bargain, Like
(06:47):
it's not about cutting someone'sthroat in a negotiation and
getting squeezing every drop ofblood out of the turnip.
That, to me, is archaic andit's not loving and it's not the
way things typically need to be.
I mean, it's not my favoriteway of doing it.
There are power negotiatorsthat are good at that, but
(07:11):
that's not how I negotiate.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's all I'm saying .
It makes me think of and I'd becurious to get your thoughts on
this, but in Never Split theDifference he talks about how,
in a hostage negotiation, he'sgetting these guys to make to
feel comfortable with prison.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
And they come out and they're like, oh my gosh, this
is the path, and it's likeyou're going to prison.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
That's right.
How do you?
Speaker 2 (07:34):
you know, he's negotiated them into a scenario
where prison feels like the bestoption for them.
That's insane.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
So that's so.
Let's talk about that one,because that's maybe the most
extreme and super relevant pieceof the whole negotiation thing
If it's on the one side of thespectrum.
If we're talking about hostagenegotiation, why did Chris Voss
name the book Never Split theDifference?
Well, because if there's sixpeople that are hostages, it's a
(08:06):
failing negotiation.
If, yeah, let's just meet inthe middle here and you keep six
and we'll take six or three andthree.
Three die and we get three back.
That's a total failure.
So in a hostage negotiation, theonly way to win that
negotiation is with all of thehostages being released.
So it's a very black and whiteoutcome and in business and in
(08:31):
real estate and in relationships, I've never experienced
anything with that black andwhite.
Where it has to go that way,there always feels like there
can be some give and take.
And I'm not advocating thatlet's meet in the middle by any
means here, because I think if Iidentify myself on the spectrum
(08:53):
, I definitely fall closer toChris Voss.
I've never split the differenceon the spectrum.
I fall closer to that extremeon the spectrum but I'm not.
I've lost so many negotiationsbecause I haven't been aware and
I just haven't known how todeal with this, and so I've
gotten the short end of thestick more than not Okay.
(09:16):
So again, the School of HardKnox has spent my teacher over
27 years and losing lots ofnegotiations.
Some of the worst failures havecome down to having
partnerships with people who aretakers and not producers, who
come in and negotiate this bigsplit and I say, yeah, we're
(09:37):
getting along really great rightnow, let's be partners.
And then six months a year inthey just sit on their ass all
day long, or on their farm orwherever they are, and they do
nothing.
And so now resentment builds upand all kinds of problems come
from that.
So like, let's bring it backinto the hostage, negotiation
(09:59):
and the mindset.
So one of my prevailing, one ofmy guiding philosophies in
negotiation is I'm literallytrying to get a win-win.
That doesn't mean we're meetingin the middle, but I want all
parties in a negotiation to feellike they're winning.
And to your point.
When Chris Voss brings up theterrorist who's comfortable
going to prison, well, he'sfeeling like he's winning
(10:22):
because he's not getting shot todeath, because that's one of
the options, and he's not beingtortured, and there's probably a
handful of other possibilitiesin all of this.
But negotiating a guy in ahostage situation who's filled
with anxiety and fear, totallytriggered the whole time, to be
(10:43):
able to talk them down to that,means you're giving concessions.
You're making concessions.
So, as we're making concessionsin here with the intent to get
what we want and also giveterrorists what he wants, which
is life, because freedom's nownot on the table, we've got to
(11:04):
have them feel comfortable withus.
We have to establish arelationship of trust.
There's some authenticity inthat, and Chris Voss talks a lot
about integrity and thenegotiation.
If he's negotiating terms withsomeone, with a terrorist, and
they're making promises aboutdoing something they better do,
(11:25):
I mean they are committed tomaking those things happen.
And if they don't, theyacknowledge how badly that
negotiation can turn, andquickly.
So when you're dealing withlife and death negotiations and
like with the hostages, youcan't afford to not be an
integrity.
You could get everyone killed.
If you say, yeah, we're gonnahave a helicopter waiting here
and there'll be no one out thereand we'll have your money and
(11:47):
you make all those bigcommitments and then you don't
do that, boom, everybody dies,and the FBI in many instances.
Chris in the book talks aboutFBI failing in their
negotiations, where everybodydies.
So the FBI and law enforcementofficials have also learned
through the School of HardKnocks what works, what doesn't
(12:10):
work, and their negotiationtactics have changed
dramatically over the years.
And I like that, because I likethat integrity gets to be one of
the pillars of a successfulnegotiation, because I like to
perform, I like to show someonewhat I can do.
Talk's cheap, but if I can showyou here's what we're doing and
(12:35):
then I do it, it makes theperson I'm negotiating with see
that we're not just talking.
They can see that we have thepower to execute something.
We have the authority to makethose commitments in the first
place, cause we've just comethrough.
And so these are some ideas I'mjust throwing out there for
(12:56):
consideration.
Okay, so let's talk about realestate negotiations here
specifically, cause I think, ifa lot of our listeners are
probably thinking about goingout and maybe trying to
duplicate what you're doing byan Airbnb, the first step is
you're gonna get on, you'regonna get on realtorcom, you're
gonna get online, you're gonnafind a property in an area you
(13:18):
like and then you're going toengage a seller whether they're
selling for sale by owner,you're gonna engage their real
estate agent.
Right, and you might have areal estate agent to be
negotiating for you.
But a lot of the time, even ifI have an agent representing me,
I like to head the negotiation.
I'm not comfortable with thereal estate agent negotiating in
(13:40):
my behalf because Most of thetime, they're just not trained
in any of the tactics or thementality and they certainly
almost never understand my, myideal outcomes.
So understanding the idealoutcomes means that I can.
I can give and take on the flyin the negotiation.
This is why I'm preferring youknow, spearheading my own
(14:04):
negotiation.
So, guys, in real estate youalways have two categories you
have price and you have terms.
Rarely do we get both.
If we get both were we'refortunate right, it's a really
good day to to make an offer andget the price you want and the
terms you want.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Okay, okay, yeah following this yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Let's go back to you.
Know you negotiating?
You know two condos and MoabDid.
Were you able to get price andterms of what you on your offer?
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Man, yeah, I mean, we weed.
That was a.
That was a crazy deal, and themore that I talk with you about
it, the more I talk with Annieabout it's like that was an
anomaly.
Yeah, that the more I realizehow you know, unique that
situation was, first andforemost, I got the price I
wanted because they weren't evenbuilt yet.
(15:00):
Yeah, and there's a bigadvantage to get the price,
because they they knew that theywere not going to get the price
.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
They knew they couldn't deliver it today and
you write it today, so there's aconcession.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
It would have been totally different if they were
built turnkey already.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Totally right, and so you're willing to come in and
take some building exposure.
That's extra risk.
You're right right and extratime.
So I guess to your point.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
It wasn't, I guess, perfect, because I would have
loved to just buy him and thenturnkey him right there, yeah,
so I had to wait eight, ninemonths for them to be finished
being built.
So that's part of the term partof the terms.
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess, if we really thinkabout this in this conversation,
they weren't I'm like it wasn'tamazing terms because of that
(15:48):
building, but it was still likeFlash forward the eight months.
Oh, it was great.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yeah, right, well, you were the plan you were
looking at it and you win to thedeal with the awareness that
this is going to be aConstruction process right part
of the plan, right?
It's part of the terms thatthey need a certain amount of
time.
Yeah, so inside of time, guys,or, excuse me, inside of the
terms, part of this equationtime is always one and time can
(16:14):
be broken into multiple piecesof a real estate negotiation.
There's multiple deadlines in anoffer.
So if you make an offer, likeyou did, you're gonna have a due
diligence deadline.
How fast can you Understand theproperty and the cash flow and
the market?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah well enough to close on it that you have to
find all of those things outduring due diligence, and that
was another interesting thing.
I guess, as we as we talk aboutthis, it makes me understand
what you're asking a little bitbetter.
You know, cuz mine we put inthe non-refundable or we put in
the earnest money.
It went non-refundable twomonths later, yeah, but we still
had six months until theproperty was finished.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah.
So in that first two monthsbefore the due, before your
earnest money went hard,non-refundable, you were able to
get your head around thecertainty you were able to find
certainty that you were going toclose as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, not absolute right now.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
I remember that the financing was not certain at
that point.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
No, in fact, my scenario was Incredibly unique.
But I mean, as you said acouple times throughout the show
, it's like, as a developer, Ifeel like in this world as well,
nothing ever goes exactlyaccording to plan.
Yeah, and I experienced that.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yeah, okay in this construction space it's.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
it's a oh man, it's an exaggerated situation.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Right well, and yeah, it's a good environment.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Where the earnest money is now non-refundable.
It's like well, now I have tolike, yeah, I have to close or
lose the earnest, or lose theearnest.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, you got.
Yeah, you got real exposure.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I don't want to lose your money.
Yeah so what do I have to do tomake it close?
And you know you have lenderspull out and you have, anyway,
it's, it's.
There's a lot that goes into it.
Yeah so I guess to your point,then you know when you're gonna,
when you're negotiating, thereis the price, I got the great
price, yeah, but then that termof that timing, with that
(18:08):
non-refundable earnest money,with all those things, it was
like oh boy.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Oh boy, right, I'd have you consider to that.
Your negotiation process endedwhen you accepted the contract
and they accepted the contract.
Yeah, when you reach thataccord, that's when the go, the
negotiation is over, and thenthe contract dictates what those
terms are that you negotiatedso the negotiation window
(18:32):
happens in the Hell.
I'm in negotiations right nowthat have been going on for six
months over business structureand capitalization Structure.
Some negotiations like on onland or a property, like that
could take a week.
Yeah, you know, if it look, ifsomeone's look, if someone is
(18:53):
has a property listed on themultiple listing service, you
already know they want to sell,so that's already agreed.
So now you can.
You can approach that with anunderstanding that they are open
to selling.
I'm knocking on doors Talkingto farmers who I don't know if
they want to sell.
They've owned land for a hundredyears in the family whoa and
(19:15):
I'm approaching them cold,trying to just build a
relationship and help themunderstand what I'm doing and
understand what they want.
And it's a totally differentconversation because we're not
talking about can I buy yourland today.
I'm trying to understand theirlong-term goals.
If they've held land for ahundred years in a trust with
(19:37):
family and they're a second orthird generation landholder, the
motivation behind sellinganything could be different for
everyone.
Again, perspective determinesbehavior.
So it's critical in myexperience, to really have ears
to hear.
Being a good negotiator meansyou have great listening skills.
(20:01):
That might be one of the biggestpoints of what does it?
take to be a great negotiator.
Well, I know what I want, butthe more I can listen and absorb
what the seller wants and needs.
Sometimes needs is a real thing.
Like, for example, if I'mtrying to buy that condo that
you're talking about in Moab,but they have underlying debt
(20:23):
and there's a maturity date onthe debt in three months, well,
that will drive what they need.
It'll say that they have toclose in 90 days before the
maturity date and they, you know, I mean, that's an example.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
They're more motivated.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
They're more motivated, or if it's paid off
and there's no debt.
You don't have that samepressure, totally different
terms.
So when we talk about terms,you have the pricing, you have
your due diligence deadlines,you have your closing timeframes
, you have a financing deadline.
All of these things we want topre-consider before we enter a
(21:01):
negotiation.
We want to know what we can dobefore we enter the negotiation,
and so a lot of time I'll modelthe whole deal Like I'll
spreadsheet the deal andunderstand what the potential of
the deal could be to buy thisland or buy that condo or buy
this business.
We have one business that we'rein the process of evaluation on
(21:22):
buying a business and it's aneight million dollar roughly
deal here.
And you know how do we, how dowe value these assets and value
this, and that's a wholedifferent process.
And so time, a lot of the time,time for me is more valuable
than the price.
In fact, to give you, to giveyou a real time example I have I
(21:48):
have a land negotiationhappening right now on several
hundred acres, and so I recentlypurchased land in the area for
X dollars per acre and it's agood price per acre.
I purchased that land and thenI'm looking at this other land
(22:09):
that's close by and so I hadmade an offer for the same price
per acre and the landownerbalked at it and was like, no,
no, we need, we need a lot morethan that.
I mean it's like 10 times moreworth.
And I'm like, well, really, whyis it worth 10 times more?
Well, because we can developthis, you know, on our own and
(22:29):
do this.
So all of a sudden they're adeveloper.
So what that tells me in thisnegotiation is they have a
better sense of future, futurevalue that doesn't necessarily
present today value.
So then I gently kind of pushback and I say well, today it's
only worth X, because in orderto get me through the
(22:53):
development phases of youtalking about the value you want
, we'd have to rezone it, we'dhave to annex it into the city,
we'd have to get theentitlements complete.
Each of those layers have extracost and exposure to me.
And if I check those boxes off,or you check them off before I
buy it, well then it's worthmore.
But today, it's not worth that.
(23:14):
So there's an education processthat happens with a land
negotiation for a developer and,at the same time, finding an
arrangement that makes them feellike we're all winning.
Okay, I want, I really wanteveryone that I'm negotiating
with to be excited about it.
If they're selling to me, Iwant them to feel like they're
(23:36):
getting a great deal.
If they're feeling like I'mscrewing them, that's not what I
want to do.
That's different for a lot ofnegotiations or people.
We talk about the money and therelationships people.
I'd rather have relationshipsand I can figure out how to
structure things over time withthe right terms to help someone
(23:58):
get more of what they want toneed, and so I'm very strategic
about that.
In a business negotiation,there's a lot of factors like
like who's going to guaranteethe loans, who's got the track
record, who's going to bring thecapital, who's going to be the
operator, who's going to bringthe potential contracts for all
(24:20):
of the materials and procurement, like who has the relationship.
So there's all these categoriesand when we're negotiating in a
big partnership structuredsituation, all of these moving
parts are at play.
So it's really therelationships is, again the most
(24:41):
important thing to me in anegotiation.
Now, if we go back to ourextreme side of the spectrum,
one major point of power in anegotiation is you've got to be
willing to walk.
(25:01):
Okay, getting emotionallyattached to that Toyota, that
orange Toyota, you have to havethe Toyota.
If you can't walk out of thedealership and forget about it,
you're going to lose thenegotiation.
Okay.
But if you can really belogical and detach your emotions
from it and I'm talking aboutany negotiation here where we're
(25:22):
buying land or buying a condoor buying a car we're doing a
business I have to be so secureabout myself and what I can do
with or without this thing thatI'm negotiating for.
And so the mentality behind thatis it'll be awesome if I can
get this, but if I can't, it'snot going to kill my operation,
(25:45):
it's not going to kill my wholeoutlook for the year, right.
So I like to have backups, Ilike to have multiple
possibilities, which is why Inegotiate multiple parcels of
land anywhere.
Anywhere I'm at, I'm talking todifferent landowners and I'm
trying to hedge myself so Idon't have to be pinned into
(26:08):
that one landowner who wants toexploit me, because they might
be only money driven.
They really don't give a flyingfuck about me and my goals.
They just want that money.
And you know that's aninteresting that brings up an
interesting example of whathappened in Moab.
I forgot about this one, but webought the first, so Sage Creek
(26:31):
was an.
It's currently an eight acreit's an eight acre site and we
bought the first piece, whichwas only 2.3 acres.
Okay, we got a good deal forthat one.
I mean, it was like it was likea couple hundred thousand
dollars.
And pretty soon everyone intown heard about what we might
be doing and so we had neighborsapproaching us.
(26:53):
Pretty soon we we had one pieceright next to us under contract
and it was almost triple theprice still not quite a million.
Then we get the other neighboron the other end of us and she
was a real estate agent and shewas maybe smarter than her own,
(27:14):
smarter than her own good, andshe, she tried to finagle a deal
with us for a multi-milliondollar price tag that was
contingent on her appraisergiving us an appraisal.
Okay, so, side note foreveryone in negotiation, it
doesn't matter what the sellersays about the value, the
(27:34):
seller's opinion of value, as itmeans nothing to me as a buyer.
You have to disregard that.
A buyer has to have their ownvalue, their own understanding
of value.
It's only worth X to me becauseof what I know I can do with
the property, and perspectivedetermines behavior, and so the
buyer and seller always haveopposing, sometimes polar
(27:57):
opposite, opinions about valueInteresting.
So whenever a seller is sayingyeah, I'll have my appraiser do
an appraisal and we'll give youthe well you just throw that in
the garbage shredder, becausethe seller's appraiser is gonna
pad that number and they'regonna give you some trumped up
inflated value.
That's exactly what happened.
Now I was negotiating multiplepieces at the same time, so when
(28:21):
she attempted to do this, Isaid you know what that's like
more than double of what I thinkit's worth and thanks.
I appreciate your time.
Cancel the contract, got myearnest money back and guess
what?
She's still sitting there withher house and nothing ever
happened.
In the meantime I went andbought the other piece the other
(28:41):
side of the property.
We got the three pieces and webuilt the resort.
So she could have cashed out ifshe'd have been reasonable, but
she overcommitted to her herkind of misguided understanding
of value, and that's prettycommon.
So you have to be willing towalk and you can only walk if
you've got backups.
That's easy with a car becauseyou could be negotiating 10
(29:03):
dealerships and you're gonna sayoh, I'll go down the street,
just like Chris Voss did.
You've got a backup plan, right.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Well see, then I would almost ask the question
like, okay, what if hers was theonly plot of land to do?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
it, yeah.
So then I'd shift gears.
Then I'd shift gears from priceand say, okay, that price, I
have to have the land.
The price is non-negotiable.
I think it's worth.
She thinks it's worth twice asmuch.
I'm gonna shift gears to termsnow, and what I would have
probably done with her if shewould have been open to it is I
probably said, hey, you knowwhat, I'll give you your price,
(29:37):
but we'll do a structured deal.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
I'll get you half now .
Speaker 1 (29:41):
we'll get you another half in 24 months, or another
piece in a year and anotherpiece in another year, and
you'll let me, you'll work withme to get through the
entitlement exposure, the zoningexposure and the development
exposure of having my siteapproved because keep in mind at
that point when I wasnegotiating, that the city
(30:01):
hadn't approved my plan.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
So as a developer.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
I'm flying under certain presumptions that the
city will approve my planbecause it was already zoned out
for what I needed and Iunderstood clearly what the
density and the requirements thecity would have on me.
So I was comfortable enough tonegotiate and start buying land
in parcels like that Interesting.
But that's what I would havedone.
(30:25):
I would have just shifted toterms.
Now I have a negotiation that'sactive right now.
That is a very similarsituation.
It's a neighboring parcel.
They think they can develop itjust as well as I can.
I say well, go ahead and havefun with it.
But you might consider thatcash in hand today, if I can
(30:48):
work terms out with you, I couldshow you a way to put more in
your pocket and you give me myterms.
And what does that look like?
That's exactly what I just laidout.
For the Moab thing.
It was okay, I'm gonna give youyour price because you're today
, you think it's worth more, andthat is the situation.
And when I talk about thispiece down south, I bought the
(31:10):
land per acre.
On this, this one, I'mnegotiating.
They want three, four times peracre for it.
But it's raw land.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
It's not worth that.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Keep in mind, guys.
When you establish value onsomething, it means what's
someone willing to pay for it?
So when I bought a 151 acres atX per acre, I just set the
actual value of that raw land inthat area.
That is the value Now until Icomplete my zoning and my
(31:42):
entitlement and my site plan,move it through all that
exposure, then the value goes up, but that doesn't mean the
neighboring properties go up,because the neighboring
properties don't have all thatwork.
So, guys, we're talking, we'rereally kind of covering, we're
covering real estate developmentin a lot of ways, because I'm
(32:03):
talking through the negotiationsthat a real estate developer
has on an everyday basis.
But this is valuable for anyonein any negotiation.
So terms is maybe the mostflexible way to create a win-win
Get what I want, give them whatthey want and use time, use
(32:28):
structure.
And I won't even go into all ofthe ways today for the sake of
the episode on how to do that.
I'm just trying to convey aphilosophical point that I don't
have to drive the hard bargainand I can be, and you know it
takes a lot of.
You have to set ego aside whenyou're negotiating too, because
(32:51):
it's really easy for someone tocome back and say their property
is worth four times what itreally is today and have you not
be triggered and have that kneejerk.
So remember, guys, lead withlove.
So love, if you can have lovebe part of the negotiation, then
I just have you consider you'recreating an opportunity with a
(33:12):
landowner or a condo owner,someone that you might have an
opportunity to do futurebusiness with, if they feel
satisfied and I feel satisfiedand we all won in this process.
Word of mouth travels.
Reputation management iscrucial for me.
I mean, my reputation is worthmore than the money or the land,
and so how did I get there?
(33:34):
The how is a big deal for me.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
So what would you say are best practices of getting
there?
Right if you had to say so,like for me, for example.
I'm sitting here and listeningto this.
I'm like, okay, you wannalisten?
Listening is super important.
You're leading with love, butcould you break it down for us,
(33:59):
cause you're doing this active.
What are things that I couldtake, that a listener could take
, like the top three, top fivebest practices for negotiating,
and whether that's terms orthat's price, whatever, and
whether that's real estatedevelopment, buying a condo,
buying a car, whatever whatwould you say are the top cause?
You're talking about the how.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yeah well, let's talk about it.
Alan, I appreciate thatquestion that has multiple
answers.
This will be good, I think, toclarify so ears to hear that's a
critical piece of mindset goinginto it.
A lot of people have read orheard these archaic tactical
cliches never be the first tospeak the price, okay.
(34:44):
Well, that's a frustratingthing.
I have a business negotiationhappening right now.
These guys for months refuse tosay the price Really and that's
frustrating.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And so what do I do?
Anchor low Chris Voss talksabout this, you set an anchor.
Now when I go into the landnegotiation I'm setting an
anchor.
Now there's low balling you'veheard about that where you just
throw some arbitrary dumb numberat someone and that can really
offend them.
Or you can use data and back upthat low anchor so that in real
(35:18):
estate, if you're talking aboutcondos, you're gonna go get
comparables and you're gonnasubmit with your offer five
comparables.
Here's why I'm offering thislow number and it's not low to
me.
This is what it's worth.
They might think it's low, butI'm not afraid to go set an
anchor and that helps themmentally check into where I'm at
(35:39):
Now.
In one of the negotiations onland that I had, I sent an offer
and it was like under a millionand they came back and said, oh
man, I mean we had this wholesite like parceled up for like
over a thousand homes and I meanthe price is like closer to 20
million and it's like.
(36:02):
So now Ego wants to jump in andsay how foolish that is.
And you have to soft pedalyourself.
I soft pedal myself and I say,okay, I consider their
perspective, I consider wherethey're getting their valuation
from, and then I start to shiftgears into terms, because that
(36:26):
price and I'll be clear, I'lltell them hey, that price is way
more than I'll pay I mean I donot agree with that price.
So again, integrity.
Yeah, I'm not playing games innegotiations.
I'm not sitting here like makingyou guess what I think it's
worth Okay we don't have to playsome mental game, because
that's frustrating and I thinkit's disrespectful.
(36:46):
So, I'm, I risk if I respect youor I can I have an opportunity
to show you respect by being anintegrity.
That means I'm shootingstraight.
So that means if I give you alow anchored number, it's backed
up with data.
There's a reason why I comewith that number now, when they
counter to this 20 times what Isay it's worth.
Now we're gonna talk about moredata.
(37:07):
I'm gonna consider theirperspective.
I'm going to offer them respectand Not just eviscerate them
verbally, because that's thenatural reaction.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
We want to.
You want to say, you want totell them you're out of your
mind.
20 million stupid.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
But you so.
So now you now.
Now I go into the delicate, themore delicate.
This is the actual negotiation,because we've got numbers
flying around, we, we havetiming flying around.
So now it's up to me to toreally model and sharpen my
pencil and figure out how much Ican pay, and Is there any way I
(37:46):
can pay more and get closer totheir number without me losing
some way, some, oh, somewherealong the line?
So now I'm really going into an, an integrity, a process of
Back to the drawing board,sharpening my pencil, looking at
that number and then trying tounderstand terms that I could
(38:07):
offer, and a lot of times It'llbe land options or a land
contract, and I'll come back andsay, hey, why don't I take down
10 acres now?
You get a cash now.
Then we can start movingthrough entitlement zoning.
If I can check those milestonesand I can get you another big
chunk, and, and when they cansee that I'm really working to
(38:28):
use my own unique skills Toimprove the land value, a lot of
the time they'll see that it'sgoing to be way easier for them
to take the money and the dealnow with me, because I'm an
experienced operator, I knowwhat I'm doing, I know what I
can do, and they're sitting here.
They've played a mental gamewith me.
Well, we'll just develop itourselves.
(38:49):
They're not developers.
That's a bluff.
And if they want to bedevelopers, there's a learning
curve that will take them 10years to get through, to get to
the level that I'm at, to beable to execute Something like
that.
Yeah you don't just turn into adeveloper overnight and to go
develop a few hundred acresEffectively.
You will lose money in theprocess, and so I want to help
(39:10):
them.
Without offending them andbeing respectful to them, I want
to help them find the win andget the value the best value
they can, at their property.
So that's in a nutshell, how Ibreak that down.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So I want to kind of just spitit back to you.
Kind of what I'm hearing hereis you know, you obviously want
to listen, but at the end of theday it really tight.
It really boils down toconsidering their perspective
and then, with integrity andrespect, outlining, you know,
(39:46):
beginning really really specificon what you can and can't do
and it's sticking to it.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Yep, avoid the nabulous broad strokes.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
You cannot you cannot become desperate.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Because the second you become desperate is where
you lose.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yeah, is it kind of like telling me that that would
desperation and negation forsure?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
So essentially what I'm hearing here is you're
saying, like you know, if youcan go into this logically and
with only Calculated look, thisis as much as I'm willing to go.
If it's more than that, thenyou have to be willing to walk
away.
That's huge, yeah.
And then two is maybe you canafford to pay a little bit more
(40:25):
If you can control terms, if youcan balance it out with that
other side yep, Find the otherbenefits to me and right yeah
because there's inherent valuethere too.
Yep right.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Very interesting now final thought, before we wrap
the episode down, is when wetalk about relationships like
interpersonal relationships,like you know, with my wife, or
with kids, or friends and family, it's a different situation.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Okay, does this apply right?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
can apply in many ways.
But but I'd have everyoneconsider that if I'm negotiating
something with my wife, it is away more delicate.
There's got to be even morerespect, more compassion and
more effort and thought given toher feelings, her needs and her
Mental state.
(41:14):
So I'm not trying to negotiate,you know, going to spend money
on this thing like let's go getsome patio furniture, when she's
stressing out about this thingover here.
So picking the time from thenegotiation is critical and then
and then contemplating andunderstanding how I present it
(41:35):
and being much more in thewin-win.
If I can really give her whatshe wants and needs, then I win.
So it's a different like I'mwilling to give a lot more in an
interpersonal relationshipbecause it's where it's a
long-term Relationship building.
It's not just a piece of landand once I buy it, they
potentially I never talked tothem again but someone I really,
(41:57):
really want to establish andbuild relationships with and I'm
going to give a lot more.
And I'm going to give withoutexpectation of it being
reciprocated.
Because now I'm getting intodepositing political capital.
I'm building up my bank accountof political capital.
You can call it differentthings, but political capital
gives me.
It gives me the, the power andthe ability to negotiate certain
(42:20):
things, but but.
But giving without theexpectation is a big piece in an
interpersonal negotiation.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
So let me ask you this, and maybe this is a whole
nother conversation aboutrelationships but when you say
that it's like okay if you'regiving without expectation, if,
if your partner does not feelthe same, you know, is there a
point where it's too much andand what.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
You see what I'm trying to ask?
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Because if you I can, and again, I'm not.
You know, I'm not currently inthe relationship like that and
so I'm not speak.
I'm curious, and I think a lotof the listeners might be
curious as well.
It's like man, if you're justgiving, giving, giving yeah,
you'll get worn out, You'reright.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
So what's that?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
So, you know, I think maybe something we all need to
consider is like what's thebalance?
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah right?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, because if one party is doing the give with no
expectation, yeah, it's not,it's not sustained.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yeah, that's a, that's a whole, nother episode,
that's a relationship.
We will definitely continue onthat.
Yeah because that's a big one.
That's a big conversation.
I know the listeners will wantto hear more on this and I've
got a lot more to contributeabout that.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
So let's wrap it up for now.
Yeah, let's get, let's get that.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
We're gonna actually add that to the list of one of
the upcoming episodes.
Let's do it and for now, guys,thanks for chiming in.
Please share this with yourfriends, family, anyone that
might be wanting to start abusiness, get into Airbnb
business or, you know, startinga portfolio.
This is for you guys.
We're just trying to inspireyou guys and give you some tools
For your success.
(43:58):
So thank you for listening andwe'll catch you on the next one.
You
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