September 3, 2025 • 45 mins
$100 off Athletic Dry Needling courses - use code ATCPOD100 (also helps support the show!!)
We asked Scott Dixon about what dry needling is and how it works, what pathologies can be treated by dry needling, and how to prepare your patients for dry needling
Timestamps
(5:30) What is dry needling?
(7:05) What pathologies can be treated with dry needling?
(8:36) Dry needling mechanism of action
(14:15) Patient education
(22:49) Treatment parameters
(25:28) Dry needling combined with other modalities/treatment
(27:47) Post treatment care
(30:03) Contraindications
(32:23) Dry needling and the AT scope of practice
(37:14) Needle-phobia
Action Item: What should an AT know before looking into adding dry needling to their practice?
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-Sandy & Randy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hey, this is Sandy. And Randy?
And we're here on AT Corner. Being an athlete trainer comes
with ups and downs and we're here to showcase it all.
Join us as we share our world insports medicine.
Welcome back to another episode of AT Corner.
For this week's episode, we havean interview on a manual therapy
(00:21):
technique that I would say has exploded on the athletic scene
for probably the last decade, I would say.
I feel like you hear about it a lot.
I feel like maybe 'cause we're in California, you don't see it
as much. Like we only know a few people,
but only, I mean, the it's from state to state.
It's so different in what you can and can't do.
(00:43):
And we do talk about that, that in this episode with Doctor
Scott Dixon, who is a physical therapist, who has holds six
different certifications, currently in dry needling and
over 100 hours of acupuncture training.
And he also teaches this. So stay tuned to hear a little
bit more about that. But in this episode we do talk
about what dry needling is, whatthe parameters are, some
(01:05):
pathologies to treat, and how itfits in with an athletic trainer
scope of practice. Sweet.
So let's hear from Scott. Thank you so much for being
here, Scott. So something we do here on the
AT corner is we pair evidence and experience.
So that experience, we like to tell stories.
So if we you could help us kick off this episode with a story,
(01:27):
experience, case study, something about dry needling to
kick us off. Yeah, so probably my my favorite
one that I like to share. I don't know if it's very if
it's based, I get flown into a friend of mine's clinic in New
York. She's got a lot of high end
clients. And so she flipped me up there
and I'm needling this guy and there's music on in the
(01:47):
background and I'm like, hey man, this is great.
I like this. I'm like, he's like, yeah, it's
mine. I said, oh, is it your place?
It's like, no, it's my song. And it was the lead singer of
Depeche Mode, which I grew up on.
And I'm like, I'm dry needling. The guy sang the song that I'm
listening to and he's like, yeah, it's just Dave Gahan.
I'm like, holy crap. Should you mind if I when I get
these needles out? I do a picture.
(02:08):
And I, I mean, I had to get a picture.
I don't usually get starstruck, but I'm like, dude, I grew up in
the 90s loving Depeche Mode. And then I got to meet the lead
singer, got to treat his wife right.
And then I went up there the next weekend and I landed at 10.
And she's like, I have a patientand I go in there, it's an
actress and I don't know her. And so I took a picture of her.
(02:29):
It's Busy Phillips. And my daughter's like, yes,
she's in Mean Girls and she's inwhite sticks.
And I didn't know who she was. So I got a picture with Busy
Phillips and and Dave Gahan. Those are probably my coolest
kneeling pictures. So it was so much fun, you know?
You know, that just goes to showthat everyone needs dry
needling, yeah? Right.
Yeah, yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been amazing.
(02:49):
It has been such an incredible journey for me.
So I don't know if I can talk a little bit how I got into it.
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
So for me, PT was the second career.
So I spent most of my life as a strength coach.
I always tell my students, I know it doesn't look like it,
right? So when I became APTI was like
in my late 30s, I'm like, I don't want to be a new grad like
(03:12):
at 39. So I took 12 kind of courses a
year for 10 years. I mean, I just became a course
junkie. And then 88 of them were in
dried needling. So I have, I have 6 different
dried needling certifications. Wow.
Course after course after course.
So people started asking for that specifically for me to do
(03:33):
dry needling. And then you know when, you
know, when you're in private practice, you have to really
niche down like you got to find what your specialty is.
So I'm like, I'm just going to make it that.
And then I started teaching eight years ago for another
company and just right place, right time.
I just met a lot of the right people, worked with a couple NFL
guys and got them better. And then they told a couple guys
(03:53):
and they told a couple guys. And then it's just been an
incredible journey and started my company two years ago and
I've had so much fun just treating people and working with
pros and educating all over the country.
It's been amazing. Now what a journey.
That's really cool. Yeah, it's definitely not what I
would have thought it would havebeen.
A lot of people, when I interview people that I'm doing
(04:14):
like we were talking about, all right, the thing that gets
people successful is obviously hard work, but you know, luck.
You got to have a little bit of luck in any industry to get that
next level, you know, meet the right person.
I literally treated one guy and had hamstring issues and he's
like, oh, I've done needling andI treat him.
He's fixed in the session and we're still friends.
(04:35):
He just retired last year. And it's just kind of, it just
grew from there and now I get flown in twice a week to
different teams to work on thoseguys.
It's it's incredible. It's a lot of fun.
That is so cool. And, and I do have to say I, I
feel you on the strength coach part, because when I was a
student, I felt that too. I was like, I don't think I
(04:55):
don't hit the vibe of a strength, which I just don't
think I would get the same results as something else.
Right, Yeah, People don't look at me.
I always tell people, like when I'm in the gym, you know, in my
sleeveless shirt, watching people work out and like, oh, I
want to say something, but I don't have my logo or my
whatever on my shirt. You're like, you've been there.
Are you in the gym? And you're watching people like
deadlift? You're like, yeah, here's my
(05:17):
card, Call me. And you want to correct them,
but they're like, who are you? You're some schmuck in a
sleeveless shirt. That's right.
All right, so wanting, wanting to send the found set the
foundation for this episode. Yeah, what is just dry needling?
Yeah, excellent question. So one of the things I I tell my
students is it there's an old cliche.
(05:38):
If I had to dive for every time,every time I'm traveling, I'm
teaching. The same question I get is
what's the difference between acupuncture and dry?
Yeah, so when I'm traveling, I don't want to get into it.
So I'm like, oh, it's just like acupuncture.
But when I'm talking to my students, the biggest thing I
tell it's the why. Like I have a really cool chart.
I have it in the wall in my office.
(05:59):
I have when I travel. It's like the difference between
a lot of people call it Western medical acupuncture is what dry
needling is. So it's more of a westernized
version. So why do I put the needle where
I put it, 'cause if you had no sound and you watched an
acupuncturist and dry needle, there'd be no difference.
But it's the why, right? I put a needle based on
diagnosis. Why are they there?
(06:20):
Are they there for shoulder impingement, telephomoral pain?
Secondly is functional testing, right?
And then thirdly is palpation. So that's what guides my
needles. I'm not going based on any
meridians or any other chi. I always tell my, my patients, I
said, if I balance your chi, it was an accident.
That's free. I didn't mean to balance your
(06:42):
chi, but that's free. You can have that.
But again, it's, it's really thewhy.
Like why do I put the needle where I put it?
You know, like in acupuncture, if if someone has frozen
shoulder, you could put a knee in the quad.
If somebody consuming his shoulder, I'm probably going to
treat the shoulder first. Could I justify treating the
quad? Certainly right.
But I'm going to treat the shoulder first.
(07:05):
What kind of conditions are helpful?
Helped with dry needling. That's, that's what's cool.
It's almost everything that I'veseen.
So anything that typical you'd go to physical therapy,
chiropractor, athletic training for so patellofemoral pain, any
tendonitis, any, any type of neuromuscular dysfunction.
(07:26):
And it's actually getting more research into the kind of the
neural side seeing you look at stroke patients or traumatic
brain patients. And there's also a recent
article I think you guys would love.
I'll e-mail it to you from a sports PT about using an acute
setting, right? So what needling does is like,
hey, can you get somebody right off an injury and get a
needling? There's like a swelling
(07:47):
technique. So one of my former students,
he's a director of sports medicine at UConn, and he said
he loves it. As soon as somebody sprains
their ankle, he's putting like 20 or 30 little needles and
letting him sit for 20 minutes and then rock taping it. 50%
reduction in swelling the next day.
So there's, there's more and more research starting to come
(08:08):
out for acute treatment, you know, which I always try to
point out when I'm teaching all the athletic training students
say, hey, there's more to this than you know, there might be a
setting. No, I have heard some people
say, hey, I needled on the sidelines and put them back in
the game. Like, I don't know if I support
that, right? But if it hurts and you're
taking them off the field, definitely consider needles.
(08:31):
So kind of touching on that, what are some like, how does it
work? Like what are some of those
proposed effects? Like how is it necessarily
getting those effects on maybe neurological or?
Yeah. So that's that's what the cool
part is, is there's so many different philosophies on what
it's doing for me. Like the pillars that we use is
it's obviously treating trigger points.
That's been around for years, right.
(08:53):
That's probably got the most amount of research is trigger
point dry needling, but it really works in a faster level.
There's a lady who's done a lot of research, Doctor Langman.
There's not a tool that we have that can move faster like a
needle, 'cause when you put in any twist, it wraps around the
needle and then it releases. I mean, that's why you can see
these systemic effects of me. So fascia to me is my favorite,
(09:16):
right? But it also works on the
neurological system by desensitizing or activating
certain neural pathways. When you look at traditional
acupuncture, some, I don't know how they knew that because it
was 3000 years ago. Most of the points are very
close to nerve vasculature bundles.
Like somehow they knew where these points were, right?
(09:37):
And now when we look at Western medical, it's like, OK, that
point isn't important, but that line is pretty accurate 'cause
it was right near, you know, where that fibular nerve rant
where that nerve. So perineural needling is a huge
thing, right, For controlling nervous system.
And but the first definition I give everybody when I when I
teach is dry needling. Is dry needling is based on
(09:58):
what? And it's the simple answer, the
body's ability to heal itself work encouraging that.
You know, there's a really good quote, Doctor Ma's probably one
of the best instructors ever. He used to have a company
that's, I think he sold it, but it's called integrative dry
needling. Amazing company.
Yeah. Integrative dry needling.
These guys are amazing instructors, a beautiful
(10:19):
company, really into the neural.But I have a quote on my wall in
my office. It says we don't heal anybody
from anything. It's up to the body to do that.
Dry needling really activates and facilitates the body's
natural parameterisms, right? Which is why younger and healthy
people love it because they're healing faster.
You get an athlete in there, youneedle them, they'll stand up
(10:39):
and go, sweet, that's awesome. Some of my patients, I needle
them and they're like, I don't like you.
And I called the next day and they go, I still don't like you.
And then a week later, like, dude, that feels great because
their body just took longer. But young athletic population,
they love it. They'll jump right off the table
and go, dude, that's amazing. I could definitely, sorry, I
(10:59):
could definitely understand the neurological part because I had
a colleague that had experience with dry neatly.
He took a couple courses and he was like, you want you?
Do you want to try it? And I was like, yeah, I at least
want to know what it feels like.And he just put one point in my
calf and like I felt a systemic like response, like it was
(11:20):
really weird. It's a really cool experience.
I don't know, it was really weird.
So that's actually what I was going to ask.
I have I go to acupuncture regularly but I've never been
dry needled. Is it?
Is the technique even though theplacement might be a little bit
different is the technique. Similar, different.
Yeah. As far as inserting the needles,
I always laugh, 'cause when I started teaching, one of the
(11:41):
guys I taught, he owned his own business and he did Facebook
Live and he wrote a little whiteboard on the difference.
And it was like acupuncture's superficial dry needling's deep.
I'm like, you need to take that down.
That's not true, right, 'cause people think acupuncture's.
It's what I tell my students is an acupuncture's can dry needle.
(12:02):
It's well within their scope andknowledge.
A person who's training dry needling cannot do acupuncture,
right? So it's very similar.
If you were to watch someone insert a needle, you know, the
points are different. But as far as how you feel, you
know, it's it's different for for everybody.
And also again, the different types.
That's what I tell people. You have to be careful with
(12:22):
research because I don't think it's as clearly defined as some
other things in the literature. Like when somebody says, hey, we
did Therax for the shoulder, a lot of us know what that is,
right? Or we did a good or humor glide.
It may be slightly different techniques, but we all know what
that is. If it says dry needling, that's
pretty broad that they leave it in, that they twist it, that
(12:43):
they scan. Where did they put like, so I've
seen articles that say, Hey, dryneedling doesn't help.
But then you got to go back and look at the, the research, how
many people were in it? How did they do it?
You know, the general term dry needling can be very broad.
You know, even when I talk to people's experience, they'll
come and like, oh, I've been needled.
I'm like, oh, how did they do it?
Did they leave it in? Did they scan?
Did they stem it today? You know, and again, you, there
(13:07):
was a TikTok one time where the girl goes, how does Advil know
that my knee hurts? And the mom was thinking, oh,
these little things go down there and they swim down to your
knee. Same thing with needling.
When you insert that needle, like you were talking about,
your needle doesn't, oh, it's just my calf.
Your body goes, OK, something's happening.
Let's turn on our systems. So there's a lot of systemic
(13:29):
recovery benefit as well, right,in the depending on where they
are in season, which I really stress when I'm working with
athletic trainers, you guys morethan anybody have to know when
to dose more or less, right. So if I, if I got an NFL guy,
the first couple weeks, I'm pistoning, I'm scanning, I'm
twisting by the week 12, I'm like, I'm going to let them sit
(13:50):
there and we're just going to kind of meditate because I've
already been beat up. I don't want to beat them up
more with the needles, right? They'll pop down on my table and
go, OK, right, whatever. But at the beginning you're
like, yeah, get that. Yeah, get that, Yeah, get that.
So it's different and the different athletes respond
differently, you know? So actually, how do you prep
(14:11):
someone who's never been dry needled before?
Oh, that's like, what do you what do you tell them?
Yeah, So I always tell people it, it depends on your setting,
right? What I've learned over the years
is if they let me do what I can do, they'll get better faster.
So one of my, no, it's not the best answer, but one of my in my
clinic is do you want me to be nice or do you want me to fix
(14:33):
you? Right?
Because I've just seen that if Ican be a little more aggressive,
they can get better. But some people are like, oh,
it'd be nice. I'm like, cool, OK, well, it
might take me longer. But again, it's I'm a big
believer in what you think aboutyou bring about, right?
And you've seen it. You've worked with athletes.
Here is 90% of their problem. So if I tell somebody, hey, this
(14:55):
is going to hurt or it might hurt or you're going to be sore,
they're going to be sore, right?So my answer when someone asked
me, hey, does it hurt? I said, yeah, some people it
does. I don't prep them to think it's
going to hurt. Some people don't.
Some people I don't needle like crazy and he thinks they're
sleeping. Other people, I poke one needle
in. You think I just stab him with a
hot poker, right? So I don't tell him.
(15:18):
And then I say, hey, am I going to be sore?
Same thing. I say some people are sore, but
if you are, it's normal for 24 to 48 hours, right?
But I don't say, hey, you're going to be sore because they
might be sore from working out and they're going to blame the
needles, right? It's a lot about buying, yeah.
Yeah, it's huge. It's huge.
I think the one of the really good things in Doctor Ma's
(15:40):
recent book, he was like, don't discount the the provider
placebo. If somebody comes in there and
they think it works, their braincan make it work.
You know, obviously there's evidence to dry needling.
I'm not, you know, doing that, right.
But if their brain, like I really like Scott.
Yeah, if I really like Scott andhe's really good at it, I feel
(16:00):
better. Is it me?
Is it their brain or is it both?They got better.
They got better. That's all I care about.
I remember somebody quoted on a,a Facebook group that I'm
involved and he said, hey, make sure your patients aren't
getting better because you charge a lot or because they
like you. And I said, I don't care if
they're getting better me, if grandma can pick up her
grandkid, I'm happy. You know, I'm not selling her
(16:22):
snake oil. I'm doing evidence based
treatment. But if it works because she
believes in it, even better. You know what about you did your
experience when you got acupuncture?
Does it hurt? No, but sometimes if they get
too close to a nerve, like I canfeel like nerve.
Yeah, especially like near my spine.
(16:43):
I can. That's when it starts to get a
little bit more tense. But I've it's never been
painful. It's funny 'cause they are far
less cautious than we are because in, in we're when we're,
when I'm teaching people like, Oh my God, that's near nerve.
And let's find an anatomy and acupuncture.
Like you'll get close to 1 and it'll Zing.
You're like, OK, cool. Like some of the points, some of
(17:03):
the points that I know are rightnear a nerve.
And if I'm teaching a student, they'll freak.
Out but if I have. A patient like that went down my
leg. I'm like cool, and I just back
it out a little bit, but it's OKto get near a nerve.
But in acupuncture that cool, suck it out, whatever and
needling people freak out. You're not going to damage a
nerve. When I tell my students, if you
think you can damage the nerve other than the sodding nerve,
(17:24):
the sodding nerve you can damagebecause it's so thick.
I said, next time you're having Angel hair pasta, try to
puncture her with a toothpick. What's going to happen?
That's the same thing. It's going to go like that, like
that. You're not going to hit it, but
every time you get near it, it'sgoing to fire.
You know, not a great way to grow your business or keep your
athletes happy. No, but it's not going to damage
it. They're going to go, OK, right,
(17:44):
right. One of the courses I took, my
partner hit my older nerve four times in a row.
I'm like, OK, we're good. Let's, let's, let's, yeah.
She's like, no, one more time. I'm like, dude, I'm not going to
be able to make a fist, so I'm all up for people learning, but
you know. Right, right, right.
I like I like that analogy of the Angel hair.
That's pretty. That's right.
Nobody's upset if you do it. Call me and show me, because you
(18:07):
can't. Same thing with blood vessels.
They don't even think about it, right?
I talked to an acupuncturist once, like, yeah, we're not
worried about it. We'll just, they don't move out
of the way. But when I teach dry needling,
we're like, know where this is, know where this is, know where
this is. But it, it, it's safer than you
think, but we just want to protect ourselves.
Absolutely. The problem with dry needling is
that there are too many people, too many other professions
(18:30):
waiting for other professions tofail so they can lose that,
right? So I always tell people, it's
like with the pneumothorax, right?
One of the things I say is it's not about what's going to happen
to the patient. They're going to be fine, right?
We, we want to make sure we don't do it obviously, but it's
what's going to happen to your profession, you know, because
there's so many people going, oh, they're not qualified,
(18:52):
they're not qualified. One of the things, and I won't
mention which state it was because I don't want to get
anybody upset. One of the states was trying to
get kneeling for athletic trainers written in black and
white like it was a Gray state. And so they decided to do a
Community Board and let the public write comments.
And the 1st 200 comments were acupuncturist, literally as rude
(19:15):
as I could ever see people. Most professions we support each
other. They were like reaming athletic
trainers. I popped on there and read
something like they're not, they're an idiot and they're
like, you don't even know they were literally they don't have
any knowledge. They only have a degree.
Like what are you talking about?And literally 200 comments.
And it was just so that they couldn't allow them to dry
needle. They didn't know anything about
(19:37):
I taught. And so I jumped in there and I
said, because a friend of mine invited me to comment, I said,
listen, I've been teaching athletic trainers for years.
They're way more than qualified to do this technique way more.
Their education extremely provides them the knowledge to
do this. But it got it got so personal.
It was like, wow, people were angry.
(19:59):
So there's a lot of professions that say, hey, it's not fair.
You can do it. And it has nothing to do with
the knowledge of the people, right?
It just has to do with, you know, people.
What is it? A scarcity mindset?
If you're giant needling, yeah, If you're giant needling, then I
can't. I can't do it all with my
patients. But people ask me, is there any
profession? And I will tell everybody up
front, I have seen good and bad in all of them, right.
(20:22):
I've taught chiropractors, PTS and probably about 30 to 40% of
all of our professions are giving us all a bad name.
The rest of them are kicking ass.
Yeah, right. There's some old PT, some old
Cairos, some old athletic trainers.
They're not. Oh yeah, I'm an athlete, you
know, you're not. Then there's people that are out
there really growing the profession and learning and
studying and being the best. And it doesn't matter what
(20:44):
profession. We all have good and bad in all
of our professors, you know. Well, even with that, like we
obviously as athletic trainers know athletic training best.
So without being in a position of like, I've never gone to PT
school, I've never gone to chiropractor school, I don't
know exactly what you guys do. I only know what I see from the
outside. And so without me taking a deep
(21:05):
dive and actually getting your perspective like I can only
exactly, I can only account for what I see.
Right. Yeah.
And it's. I mean, it's me.
It's I love, I think when I tellpeople, when when I travel
teaching, my two favorite thingsare the people I get to meet,
right? And then the food I eat.
So yeah, that's true. Yes.
(21:27):
Any city you go to. It's it's only bad when you go
to a really small town and you say, hey, what do you recommend?
And they say Applebee's. I'm like, no, no.
No. Thank you.
That's it. That's all you got.
That's that's it. Well, on a good busy night,
we'll go to Applebee's. I'm like, OK, you know, but
mostly. But the people, it's just you,
the I just, I stress this so much, especially for people, you
(21:49):
guys that are listening, doesn'tmatter where you are.
I'm a huge believer of being thebest that you can be at what you
do right and everything will happen when you're a skill based
profession like a TS and P TS and Cairos just be the best,
right? Never stop learning.
It's literally on the back of our work stores.
It says never stop learning. And I've seen it all over
(22:10):
country. Some people are just, oh man,
Scott, what do you think about this Scott?
They're they're asking me, you're sending me emails and
asking me questions and sometimes I can't even answer.
Like, dude, that's awesome. Those are the people that are
fun to be our profession, the people that are passionate about
what they do, the people who arelike, dude, that's cool.
Oh let me learn. And no egos.
When you bring an ego in a room of multi professionals it it's
(22:34):
never good you know? So if I were to, I've never seen
a dry needling session. How how often can you actually
dry? Like how long is a treatment and
then how often can you do a treatment?
Yeah, so it's typically it depends on the setting that
you're in, you know, so I one ofthe reasons I love it for the
(22:56):
athletic training session is because there's, you can let him
sit for a while. So it's a great modality when I
get these, especially when I getlike a small university when
there's like 2A TS for, you know, 17 teams and they're like,
what do I do it now? Come in there and they're like,
oh, I'm hurt. And you can have needles in this
guy, needles in this guy, needles in this guy and let him
(23:16):
sit for 20 minutes while you're doing something else, you know,
because one of the best ways is have time and sit to how long
can that needle stay in there. So for me, typically a session,
if it's in my clinic, it's about30 minutes.
I'm just needling. I don't do any corrective
exercise. I don't do any of that 'cause I
refer out If I'm travelling to apro, it's two hours.
(23:38):
But they get, you know, yeah, they get front of the body, back
of the body. I mean, they're, they're getting
needle like crazy. And typically because it's based
on the body's ability to heal, Idon't recommend any more than
every three days you have most and that's with a young healthy
person. The hard part is, like I said in
your setting is those kids are going to come in there and be
like, needle me, needle me. I'm like, I just needled you
(24:00):
yesterday, right? And then they're like, you just
explain to them that their, their body needs time to heal,
you know, and then when you think about, I think when you
think about dosing, as I mentioned before, it's, it's
very different in athletic training because you're trying
to juggle, you don't want a needle because one of the main
(24:21):
things of needling, whether it be acupuncture or dry needling
is to turn on the Paris in that nervous system.
It's a recovery. So you don't want a needle and
then go to practice or needle and then go to competition.
And so when you got this collegeor high school athlete or pro,
when are they not playing? When are they not?
So they'll come in in the morning and say needle me and
they got to compete that that's not good.
(24:42):
So it's much harder than in a PTor a chiropractor setting where
you can needle and send them home.
So that's the challenge of the athletic training is when can I
needle? Because they're playing every
day, right? And so learning to not and then
knowing what the dosing is. So when you're working with an
athlete and you needle them on Friday and you put 30 needles in
(25:03):
there, they're not going to be good on Saturday, right?
They need, but now you can put 2needles in there and stem it.
But if you put a ton of needles,that's micro lesion, micro
lesion, they're not going to heal by Saturday and be at their
peak performance. So I think juggling that with
needling is a little bit harder in the athletic training setting
versus in the private practice, you know?
(25:26):
You kind of already touched on it a little bit, but can you use
the needling in conjunction withother treatments so you
mentioned like maybe doing E stem with it?
Yeah. So for me the go to without a
doubt is red light, Red light needling is.
I mean I have a huge one that sits on there on my patients.
I'm such a big fan of red light.We actually have partner to the
(25:47):
company called Fringe that does,I think she was.
Yeah. Friends is amazing.
Their red lights are incredible.And so we we set up panels on my
patients and then I recommend the raps.
The other thing for me, without a doubt, and I got this from a
very good friend of mine. It's OK if I give him a shout.
Mitchell Spud. He's AATC at Missouri State,
(26:08):
probably one of the best rehab guys I know in the country.
He's been an instructor for RockTape for like 10 years, and
needling and taping are like peanut butter and Jelly.
So everything I needle, I tape because you got to think, even
though the evidence does supportit, what does it needle?
What does taping do? A little blood flow and a little
bit of neural reeducation. What do you need after needling,
(26:29):
blood flow and neural rehab. So if I needle it, I'm taping it
without it all. Right.
You know, it's funny that you brought up the red light because
throughout this whole whole interview, you were talking
about like how the body's response to the needles and all,
everything that you were talkingabout, I was like, man, this is
how I explain red light to when I'm using it with one of my
(26:51):
athletes. And so it's funny that you use
them both together because I wasliterally thinking of red light
this entire time. Yeah.
That's awesome. Yeah.
I mean, it's it's, it's incredible to me now.
I just found a really giant panel that sits on top of it.
I mean, it's people love it. It it's so easy to I've got 2 in
my dining room that I just do for my yoga that I got from
(27:12):
friends, the little red light. So I just lay there.
You if you go back on my podcast, I interviewed the lady
who started it and you can see she's all red.
She's got, she even put on a little hat and they got one for
concussions and she's wearing this little Red Hat.
I want the face one because I'm getting older.
So I got to work in those wrinkles.
That's what I want. And I said, if you're going to
(27:33):
send me free stuff, send me the face one.
I'm getting older. Again, same thing.
I think you touched on this before.
Man, we're doing some good segues here.
Is there any like post treatmentcare that they that the patient
should kind of consider like 'cause I mean you are going into
the skin, like they have to takecare of them, clean their wound,
(27:54):
you know, just kind of stuff like that?
Yeah, yeah. So no, the needle is so thin
that they don't even like typically I'll do and it depends
on the person. Let's say somebody comes and
I'll put in 20 needles. One might bleed and it's such a
little droplet. These things are so thin.
But post treatment I always tellthem the same thing, right.
Our goal is to to get that parasympathetic.
(28:15):
So I don't want them doing anything that's going to turn up
their nervous system, right. So walking is good, you know,
moving around, just don't go home and sit on the couch, but
also don't go run a half marathon right from typically
that's about 24 hours, you know,so when we're done, big one for
me is no ice, right, because we're creating micro
(28:36):
inflammation. And I tell people when I first
tried needling 12 years ago, I would needle somebody's up trap
and they'd be sore. I'm like, oh, here's some ice.
Now that I've done it for years,I'm like, that was stupid.
I literally just went against. So yeah, no ice and then ideally
no anti inflammatories, right? So if they get sore, what's the
almost the second answer for most pops of Advil?
(28:58):
Well, now the body's not going to heal itself 'cause it's
delayed. So that's my two biggest one is
light movement that won't turn up your nervous system.
No ice and no anti inflammatories, right?
And then one of the things I recommend everybody do because
people can have some negative inthe sense of pain reactions.
It's not anything bad, but theirbody might just like respond
(29:20):
differently. Anytime I needle someone for the
first time, I'm always reaching out to the next morning.
So if you're an athletic trainerand you treat an athlete, hey,
shoot him a text the next morning.
Hey, how you feeling? Because I'd rather nip that in
the butt if like, dude, that freaking sucks.
Because if you don't nip it, they're going to tell every
other guy on the team or girl onthe team, right?
You're not going to build a needle.
(29:40):
But I at least text him and say,hey, man, how you feeling?
Yeah, it's a little sore, but it's getting better.
OK, cool. That way you can talk him down
from the. Oh, my God, my legs going to
fall off. You know, I know how dramatic
some of these athletes can be. They're sore and then they're
done for the season. And.
Yeah. I mean, it's again, it's that
education piece, it's that connection.
(30:02):
Are there any contraindications for dry needling or someone you
would be like? I probably shouldn't dry needle
you. Yeah, it's funny.
So there's there's quite an extensive list of like
traditional, but what I tell my students is they can't do
negative based outcome research.So they can't say, hey, let's
take this population that we think it would hurt and try to
(30:22):
hurt them that would never pass any IR boards.
So yeah, the contraindications are based on what we think would
happen, right? Like you have, you have an
autoimmune disease. If I needle you, it might not go
well because body's built. But what I always recommend
people is testing one or two needles, right?
Let's say they're on blood thinners.
It's probably not your population.
(30:43):
Put a couple needles in there. Oh, they did OK.
For me, it's different because in my clinic, that's why they're
there. So I'm less likely to send
somebody away. If somebody's in my clinic, they
came for needling versus let's say you're in an athletic
training room, like, hey, I've learned this new modality, I'd
like to try it. And then your athlete says,
well, I have this. I can't get needled.
(31:04):
Like, well, let's try one, see how you do.
You know, I've had patients comein with autoimmune and they got
needled all weekend. You know, I've had other
patients put in one needle and they, they're in tears and
they're crying and they don't want to get needled all weekend.
And they had no contraindications except that
it's lame needling, right? So yeah, it, there are some
listed in the literature, but again, it's, it's a pretty safe
(31:28):
technique as long as, you know, when I, when I teach, I tell
people you only need two things to be a great John Needler,
right? Really good anatomy and really
good palpation. If you know anatomy and you
know, good hands, John Needling's easier.
I can teach my 13 year old daughters how to tap the needle
(31:48):
in, but it's knowing where to put it based on anatomy and
palpation, you know? And then knowing the why, right?
For sure. Yeah.
It's funny that you bring up autoimmune because autoimmune is
actually one of the reasons why I go to acupuncture all the
time. Interesting.
OK. So yeah, not contraindicated
there. I get great results from then.
(32:11):
Any when you're sore at all the next day or no you just go in
and go out. Yeah nice.
You should try dry needle. I should.
Well, now I want to. So does it vary?
Does it vary state to state how dry needling fits in an athletic
trainer's scope of practice? Or how you explain that to
athletic trainers to make sure you get that question all the
(32:32):
time. It does.
It's it's in every state, like from PTS, the Kairos, some are
we got a lot of Gray states, right, Which means it's not yes
or no. And it's it's always tell
people. It's kind of like my kids.
If I didn't say they could, I didn't say they can't.
Technically they can do it. Yeah, right.
Yeah, it's great. You didn't say no, Dad.
(32:54):
Right. Same thing with a lot of, like
when I looked up, I'm lecturing to a big chiropractic board here
in a couple months, and they're like, it's not technically
allowed in like 20 states. So how do we have you come in?
But twenty of those states are Gray states, which means they
say don't. The only problem that gets you
in trouble is if you're in a Gray state and you're completely
(33:15):
good at what you do, you're fine.
But if you hurt somebody, they're going to go back to
what's written in the law and you're in trouble.
You know, that's what the, the state that we talked about when
they did that board for the public, that state, it wasn't in
black and white. So if it's not in black and
white in your state, you can do it.
But if somebody gets hurt and you, the law is going to be,
Hey, you're not allowed to do this.
(33:37):
So that's, that's kind of the Gray area, you know, and, and
try to find different. There's so many different
techniques out there. You know, one of the things
hopefully on, on, I don't know if you do, but on the end of the
podcast, you guys can put information.
I don't care if people come to my company, but it's such a
great modality to learn. Anybody can reach out to me.
(34:00):
And I'll recommend there's so many good different companies
out there that if they're like, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm treating this
population. Who do you recommend?
I've taken them all, every dry dealing company out there, I've
taken your courses. I'm happy to recommend if
there's one closer than mine or,or whatever, you know, but it's
just, it's, it's a great tool tohave a new toolbox.
(34:20):
For me. It's it's especially as we age,
the one thing I get from a lot of flex trainers is we do so
much manual and your hands just get, you know, and you got, and
it's a lot more like we're in our setting, you know, we're not
seeing the number of people thatyou guys are and these people
are flooding in and working my shoulder and working my knee and
like I've seen athletic trainingrooms.
(34:42):
I'm like, dude, you guys, kudos to you.
I got my one patient and I'm stressed.
You guys are juggling, you're juggling tables full right And
they all want your hands on them.
So that's what I love about that.
It just saves you over the long term.
You know, it's nice to have thatin your back pocket.
You're like, all right, I'm, I'mdone working on your shoulders
here. There's some needles.
Have you ever dry needled yourself?
(35:04):
All the time, all the time, all the time.
And I love it. It's it's I remember the first
course I took, it was evidence of emotion.
I saw that we had to needle our own forearm and I was sweating
bullets. I'm like, I mean, I'm looking at
the page. I'm like, it's two more pages.
It's two more pages. I was so scared Now, I mean, I
do it all the time. So every year for Halloween, I
(35:25):
put 20 needles in my face and I go to the floor.
My daughters love it. They're like, do the do the
needle thing. Do the needle things, Dad,
right? And nobody says anything.
It blows me away. I'm in a grocery.
Store hilarious. Guys are like, is this all for
you today? I'm like Yep, and he's looking
at me but he doesn't want to sayanything.
He doesn't want to say anything.Yeah, he's like, go something
(35:46):
right there. But in in the five years I've
been doing it, nobody says anything.
It's crazy. I guess they don't.
They want to know the real answer because it might be
weird, you know? Yeah, they may.
They don't want. They don't want to.
Ask they're going to they're going to text their they're
going to text their friends. After your loop, this guy walked
in. Weirdo camera.
Or when I'm teaching, there's a really good acupuncture right
(36:07):
here. So I'm teaching.
I'll just take a needle, tap it,and the students are just like
looking at it the whole time. They're like, oh, is that in
your brain? Like let's kind of review
anatomy a little bit. There's this little thing before
my brain that. Your your brain.
Your brain is pretty protected. Yeah, right.
But that's OK. And that, that's one of the
things I, it's pretty funny. I tell my I've got 3 instructors
(36:30):
now. I tell them, I said you have to
be ready for the dumb questions and you have to respond
lovingly. I literally had a student come
up to me and said, hey, if they've had a Laminectomy, do we
still hit the lamina? And I went no, because it's not
there. OK, cool.
And watch where my you remember medical terminology.
(36:50):
That was in school, right? I think, right.
So you know I had a girl asked me if the infraspinatus was in
the shoulder or in the PEC. Oh.
Yeah. That was a no, you're not me.
That was a degreed professional.I'm like wow.
Wow. Yeah.
Have you had any issues with people like scared of needles or
(37:11):
anyone like pass out or anything?
Oh, God, yes, yeah. The the needle phobia is huge.
It's it's we just had I taught this last weekend in Terre Haute
at Indian State University. And the hardest thing, So in my
clinic over 12 years, it's only been two people.
I passed out and my course is it's about 25.
Over 2 years. And that's because they have to
(37:33):
self needle. That's what gets people.
You got a needle in your quad and you're like, but other than
that, nobody has history but that self needling that gets a
lot of people. And one guy this weekend he's
his partner grabbed him and he he was white for about 3 hours
and he. Was the poor guy.
Yeah, it's just that self kneeling.
(37:55):
I just, but you know, I've had other people that they're just
extremely reactive and it's weird, like I had one person a
couple weeks ago in West Palm and every needle was like, I
just stabbed her soul. And I'm like, it's just like
screaming and yelling and it freaks the rest of the class
out. Yeah, for the most part, I would
(38:15):
say 80% of people. Oh, it's cool, whatever, it's
fine, you know, but you're goingto get that one person.
And I'm sure you guys, if once you start to get out there and
learn dry needling, you're goingto have athletes that come in
there and I don't care what you do to them.
And then other ones that are like, you know, you put one
needle and they're crying. There's also really good, as you
guys know, if you do a lot of manual, there's a really good
(38:37):
book called the body keeps score, right?
And there's, there's that huge emotional and I, I just had a
girl a couple months ago in one of the classes.
I'm needling her and she just starts bawling.
I'm like, Oh my God, did it hurt?
She's like, no, I said, why are you crying?
She's like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't know either.
But now we're both crying. I mean just bawling like it just
(38:58):
triggered something. Just that relief.
Man she couldn't stop for like 5minutes and she's like laughing
and crying at the same time as it was interesting.
That's interesting. That's wild.
That's. Cool.
Yeah, we, yeah, there's definitely some connections to
our, our trauma in our, in our body, you know?
Yeah, well, I was going to say the brain is so powerful when
(39:19):
you were talking about like selfneedling and, you know, just the
the reaction that you get, even the anticipation of.
Oh God dude yeah. If you've never been needle
before it's it could definitely be a bit traumatic.
From a experience from a passer outer.
So I have had just a brief experience of trying.
(39:42):
It literally is the one time 'cause I want to try it and I
did fine. I was I was I.
Was. Proud that he did fine, yeah.
And he did the he did the calf right.
Yes, did the calf, so I didn't see it.
That's the safe bet, right? That's the safe bet.
And then, yeah, usually it's like blood draws that I go out
more. Yeah, I hate it.
(40:04):
I'll go. And I just had some blood work
done the other day. I get stressed out, but I can
put 20 meals on my face and a needle my own just to iliacus.
And if you know where the iliacus attaches, I'm like,
dude, I got this with a 75 millimeter needle.
I'm like, I don't mind, but drawmy blood.
I'm like. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, usually it's the anticipation that makes it.
(40:26):
Worse, Yeah, I think people justtalk themselves out.
I had one guy so funny, I'm kneeling his back and he's like,
I'm doing like the multifida andhe's like, you're in my spine.
Like I'm not in your spine, you're in my spine.
I'm like dude, you would know ifI was in your.
Spine. Right, right, right in.
My spine, I'm like, OK, I'll take the needle out.
And he was screaming like I was needling his spine.
(40:47):
I said dude, it would be a much more intense reaction.
Yeah, right, right. Fine, and he never came back,
'cause apparently I'd needle to spine.
And then another guy that was face down in the thing stood up
because he was face down his eyes and he stood up.
He's like, I can't see. I can't see.
I think you made me blind. I'm like, I do.
(41:08):
But it was the the pillow from being Yeah.
He goes. He goes 2 minutes later he's
like, OK, I'm good. Oh my.
I didn't make you blind. I promise.
Right and. Then I'm like I hope.
Yeah, right, right. So we like to also finish up
like wrap up with an action item, something that that
athletic trainers can take away from this.
(41:30):
Obviously we have so much from today, but just if there's one
piece of something you can wrap up.
Something that athletic trainersshould know before looking into
adding dry needling into their practice.
I was gonna keep it going more simple.
It's just just go learn. I don't care who it's from, just
go learn. I mean, it's such a great tool
to have in your toolbox. I mean, there's everybody.
(41:53):
One of my favorite parts about teaching is I really encourage
people to send me success stories.
I don't use them for marketing or anything, but I'm like, and
some of the results I get are socool.
They're like, dude, Doctor Scott, I did this and this guy
was so get certified. I don't care who it is.
There's amazing companies out there.
If you're an athletic trainer and it's allowed in your state,
(42:15):
just go get certified, right? That's my advice.
Just learn it, you know, and it's, it's such a great tool to
have. It's just be cautious because
some companies only do upper andsome do lower.
So look for those ones that do like the total body.
Yeah, there's, there's some really good ones out there.
And again, if you give anybody my contact information, I'll be
(42:35):
happy to to share with them. What was great about the
conversation that we had with Scott was he you could really
sense the passion that he has onthis kind of like treatment
technique, especially knowing that how many courses he's taken
for dry needling and then to eventually start his own
(42:58):
educational courses on the technique.
So I think I think that's reallycool.
You can tell this is someone whoreally believes in one what what
he's teaching but also using it as a clinician.
We always, always, always talk about how it's really nice when
the person teaching is actually someone who does it on a regular
basis, and you just have a different level of experience
(43:19):
and understanding of that technique beyond what the book
tells you. Yeah, and it kind of helps give
you the ability to troubleshoot things because as we've learned
as practicing athletic trainers,life isn't quite like the book.
So I'm sure for dry needling that would be the same.
People present differently for different things.
(43:40):
So if you are more interested inactually taking one of his
courses, Scott did share with usthat any athletic trainer who
takes any athletic dry needling course will get $200 off.
So you just have to send him an e-mail and he'll honor that for
you, for any athletic trainer. With that, if you guys are new
to our podcast, we do several types of episodes here on AT
(44:02):
Corner. Not just interviews like the one
that we just had with Scott, butwe also do story episodes and
Education episodes. Story episodes are episodes
where we take a highlight topic and we ask athletic trainers all
over the world to submit their stories about that topic.
And then we come in and talk about it, whatever it is and
share those stories. And then we also have ACU
(44:24):
education topics that Randy heads that he reads a lot of
research and we present that in a conversational format.
So make sure you check those out.
And if you're interested in getting those BOCCUS, we do have
those available. There are several free as as to
take advantage of, especially aswe are moving towards this, this
(44:48):
actual new date, February of a reporting year.
But over the past five years, we've had several different
topics and episodes too for you guys to check out.
And as always, if there's anything that you'd like to
hear, please send it over as we would love to try and cover it.
Do you got anything else, Randy?Nope.
That's perfect. Thank you for helping us
(45:09):
showcase athlete training behindthe tape.
Bye.
Hey, this is Sandy. And Randy?
And we're here on AT Corner. Being an athlete trainer comes
with ups and downs and we're here to showcase it all.
Join us as we share our world insports medicine.
Welcome back to another episode of AT Corner.
For this week's episode, we havean interview on a manual therapy
(00:21):
technique that I would say has exploded on the athletic scene
for probably the last decade, I would say.
I feel like you hear about it a lot.
I feel like maybe 'cause we're in California, you don't see it
as much. Like we only know a few people,
but only, I mean, the it's from state to state.
It's so different in what you can and can't do.
(00:43):
And we do talk about that, that in this episode with Doctor
Scott Dixon, who is a physical therapist, who has holds six
different certifications, currently in dry needling and
over 100 hours of acupuncture training.
And he also teaches this. So stay tuned to hear a little
bit more about that. But in this episode we do talk
about what dry needling is, whatthe parameters are, some
(01:05):
pathologies to treat, and how itfits in with an athletic trainer
scope of practice. Sweet.
So let's hear from Scott. Thank you so much for being
here, Scott. So something we do here on the
AT corner is we pair evidence and experience.
So that experience, we like to tell stories.
So if we you could help us kick off this episode with a story,
(01:27):
experience, case study, something about dry needling to
kick us off. Yeah, so probably my my favorite
one that I like to share. I don't know if it's very if
it's based, I get flown into a friend of mine's clinic in New
York. She's got a lot of high end
clients. And so she flipped me up there
and I'm needling this guy and there's music on in the
(01:47):
background and I'm like, hey man, this is great.
I like this. I'm like, he's like, yeah, it's
mine. I said, oh, is it your place?
It's like, no, it's my song. And it was the lead singer of
Depeche Mode, which I grew up on.
And I'm like, I'm dry needling. The guy sang the song that I'm
listening to and he's like, yeah, it's just Dave Gahan.
I'm like, holy crap. Should you mind if I when I get
these needles out? I do a picture.
(02:08):
And I, I mean, I had to get a picture.
I don't usually get starstruck, but I'm like, dude, I grew up in
the 90s loving Depeche Mode. And then I got to meet the lead
singer, got to treat his wife right.
And then I went up there the next weekend and I landed at 10.
And she's like, I have a patientand I go in there, it's an
actress and I don't know her. And so I took a picture of her.
(02:29):
It's Busy Phillips. And my daughter's like, yes,
she's in Mean Girls and she's inwhite sticks.
And I didn't know who she was. So I got a picture with Busy
Phillips and and Dave Gahan. Those are probably my coolest
kneeling pictures. So it was so much fun, you know?
You know, that just goes to showthat everyone needs dry
needling, yeah? Right.
Yeah, yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been amazing.
(02:49):
It has been such an incredible journey for me.
So I don't know if I can talk a little bit how I got into it.
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
So for me, PT was the second career.
So I spent most of my life as a strength coach.
I always tell my students, I know it doesn't look like it,
right? So when I became APTI was like
in my late 30s, I'm like, I don't want to be a new grad like
(03:12):
at 39. So I took 12 kind of courses a
year for 10 years. I mean, I just became a course
junkie. And then 88 of them were in
dried needling. So I have, I have 6 different
dried needling certifications. Wow.
Course after course after course.
So people started asking for that specifically for me to do
(03:33):
dry needling. And then you know when, you
know, when you're in private practice, you have to really
niche down like you got to find what your specialty is.
So I'm like, I'm just going to make it that.
And then I started teaching eight years ago for another
company and just right place, right time.
I just met a lot of the right people, worked with a couple NFL
guys and got them better. And then they told a couple guys
(03:53):
and they told a couple guys. And then it's just been an
incredible journey and started my company two years ago and
I've had so much fun just treating people and working with
pros and educating all over the country.
It's been amazing. Now what a journey.
That's really cool. Yeah, it's definitely not what I
would have thought it would havebeen.
A lot of people, when I interview people that I'm doing
(04:14):
like we were talking about, all right, the thing that gets
people successful is obviously hard work, but you know, luck.
You got to have a little bit of luck in any industry to get that
next level, you know, meet the right person.
I literally treated one guy and had hamstring issues and he's
like, oh, I've done needling andI treat him.
He's fixed in the session and we're still friends.
(04:35):
He just retired last year. And it's just kind of, it just
grew from there and now I get flown in twice a week to
different teams to work on thoseguys.
It's it's incredible. It's a lot of fun.
That is so cool. And, and I do have to say I, I
feel you on the strength coach part, because when I was a
student, I felt that too. I was like, I don't think I
(04:55):
don't hit the vibe of a strength, which I just don't
think I would get the same results as something else.
Right, Yeah, People don't look at me.
I always tell people, like when I'm in the gym, you know, in my
sleeveless shirt, watching people work out and like, oh, I
want to say something, but I don't have my logo or my
whatever on my shirt. You're like, you've been there.
Are you in the gym? And you're watching people like
deadlift? You're like, yeah, here's my
(05:17):
card, Call me. And you want to correct them,
but they're like, who are you? You're some schmuck in a
sleeveless shirt. That's right.
All right, so wanting, wanting to send the found set the
foundation for this episode. Yeah, what is just dry needling?
Yeah, excellent question. So one of the things I I tell my
students is it there's an old cliche.
(05:38):
If I had to dive for every time,every time I'm traveling, I'm
teaching. The same question I get is
what's the difference between acupuncture and dry?
Yeah, so when I'm traveling, I don't want to get into it.
So I'm like, oh, it's just like acupuncture.
But when I'm talking to my students, the biggest thing I
tell it's the why. Like I have a really cool chart.
I have it in the wall in my office.
(05:59):
I have when I travel. It's like the difference between
a lot of people call it Western medical acupuncture is what dry
needling is. So it's more of a westernized
version. So why do I put the needle where
I put it, 'cause if you had no sound and you watched an
acupuncturist and dry needle, there'd be no difference.
But it's the why, right? I put a needle based on
diagnosis. Why are they there?
(06:20):
Are they there for shoulder impingement, telephomoral pain?
Secondly is functional testing, right?
And then thirdly is palpation. So that's what guides my
needles. I'm not going based on any
meridians or any other chi. I always tell my, my patients, I
said, if I balance your chi, it was an accident.
That's free. I didn't mean to balance your
(06:42):
chi, but that's free. You can have that.
But again, it's, it's really thewhy.
Like why do I put the needle where I put it?
You know, like in acupuncture, if if someone has frozen
shoulder, you could put a knee in the quad.
If somebody consuming his shoulder, I'm probably going to
treat the shoulder first. Could I justify treating the
quad? Certainly right.
But I'm going to treat the shoulder first.
(07:05):
What kind of conditions are helpful?
Helped with dry needling. That's, that's what's cool.
It's almost everything that I'veseen.
So anything that typical you'd go to physical therapy,
chiropractor, athletic training for so patellofemoral pain, any
tendonitis, any, any type of neuromuscular dysfunction.
(07:26):
And it's actually getting more research into the kind of the
neural side seeing you look at stroke patients or traumatic
brain patients. And there's also a recent
article I think you guys would love.
I'll e-mail it to you from a sports PT about using an acute
setting, right? So what needling does is like,
hey, can you get somebody right off an injury and get a
needling? There's like a swelling
(07:47):
technique. So one of my former students,
he's a director of sports medicine at UConn, and he said
he loves it. As soon as somebody sprains
their ankle, he's putting like 20 or 30 little needles and
letting him sit for 20 minutes and then rock taping it. 50%
reduction in swelling the next day.
So there's, there's more and more research starting to come
(08:08):
out for acute treatment, you know, which I always try to
point out when I'm teaching all the athletic training students
say, hey, there's more to this than you know, there might be a
setting. No, I have heard some people
say, hey, I needled on the sidelines and put them back in
the game. Like, I don't know if I support
that, right? But if it hurts and you're
taking them off the field, definitely consider needles.
(08:31):
So kind of touching on that, what are some like, how does it
work? Like what are some of those
proposed effects? Like how is it necessarily
getting those effects on maybe neurological or?
Yeah. So that's that's what the cool
part is, is there's so many different philosophies on what
it's doing for me. Like the pillars that we use is
it's obviously treating trigger points.
That's been around for years, right.
(08:53):
That's probably got the most amount of research is trigger
point dry needling, but it really works in a faster level.
There's a lady who's done a lot of research, Doctor Langman.
There's not a tool that we have that can move faster like a
needle, 'cause when you put in any twist, it wraps around the
needle and then it releases. I mean, that's why you can see
these systemic effects of me. So fascia to me is my favorite,
(09:16):
right? But it also works on the
neurological system by desensitizing or activating
certain neural pathways. When you look at traditional
acupuncture, some, I don't know how they knew that because it
was 3000 years ago. Most of the points are very
close to nerve vasculature bundles.
Like somehow they knew where these points were, right?
(09:37):
And now when we look at Western medical, it's like, OK, that
point isn't important, but that line is pretty accurate 'cause
it was right near, you know, where that fibular nerve rant
where that nerve. So perineural needling is a huge
thing, right, For controlling nervous system.
And but the first definition I give everybody when I when I
teach is dry needling. Is dry needling is based on
(09:58):
what? And it's the simple answer, the
body's ability to heal itself work encouraging that.
You know, there's a really good quote, Doctor Ma's probably one
of the best instructors ever. He used to have a company
that's, I think he sold it, but it's called integrative dry
needling. Amazing company.
Yeah. Integrative dry needling.
These guys are amazing instructors, a beautiful
(10:19):
company, really into the neural.But I have a quote on my wall in
my office. It says we don't heal anybody
from anything. It's up to the body to do that.
Dry needling really activates and facilitates the body's
natural parameterisms, right? Which is why younger and healthy
people love it because they're healing faster.
You get an athlete in there, youneedle them, they'll stand up
(10:39):
and go, sweet, that's awesome. Some of my patients, I needle
them and they're like, I don't like you.
And I called the next day and they go, I still don't like you.
And then a week later, like, dude, that feels great because
their body just took longer. But young athletic population,
they love it. They'll jump right off the table
and go, dude, that's amazing. I could definitely, sorry, I
(10:59):
could definitely understand the neurological part because I had
a colleague that had experience with dry neatly.
He took a couple courses and he was like, you want you?
Do you want to try it? And I was like, yeah, I at least
want to know what it feels like.And he just put one point in my
calf and like I felt a systemic like response, like it was
(11:20):
really weird. It's a really cool experience.
I don't know, it was really weird.
So that's actually what I was going to ask.
I have I go to acupuncture regularly but I've never been
dry needled. Is it?
Is the technique even though theplacement might be a little bit
different is the technique. Similar, different.
Yeah. As far as inserting the needles,
I always laugh, 'cause when I started teaching, one of the
(11:41):
guys I taught, he owned his own business and he did Facebook
Live and he wrote a little whiteboard on the difference.
And it was like acupuncture's superficial dry needling's deep.
I'm like, you need to take that down.
That's not true, right, 'cause people think acupuncture's.
It's what I tell my students is an acupuncture's can dry needle.
(12:02):
It's well within their scope andknowledge.
A person who's training dry needling cannot do acupuncture,
right? So it's very similar.
If you were to watch someone insert a needle, you know, the
points are different. But as far as how you feel, you
know, it's it's different for for everybody.
And also again, the different types.
That's what I tell people. You have to be careful with
(12:22):
research because I don't think it's as clearly defined as some
other things in the literature. Like when somebody says, hey, we
did Therax for the shoulder, a lot of us know what that is,
right? Or we did a good or humor glide.
It may be slightly different techniques, but we all know what
that is. If it says dry needling, that's
pretty broad that they leave it in, that they twist it, that
(12:43):
they scan. Where did they put like, so I've
seen articles that say, Hey, dryneedling doesn't help.
But then you got to go back and look at the, the research, how
many people were in it? How did they do it?
You know, the general term dry needling can be very broad.
You know, even when I talk to people's experience, they'll
come and like, oh, I've been needled.
I'm like, oh, how did they do it?
Did they leave it in? Did they scan?
Did they stem it today? You know, and again, you, there
(13:07):
was a TikTok one time where the girl goes, how does Advil know
that my knee hurts? And the mom was thinking, oh,
these little things go down there and they swim down to your
knee. Same thing with needling.
When you insert that needle, like you were talking about,
your needle doesn't, oh, it's just my calf.
Your body goes, OK, something's happening.
Let's turn on our systems. So there's a lot of systemic
(13:29):
recovery benefit as well, right,in the depending on where they
are in season, which I really stress when I'm working with
athletic trainers, you guys morethan anybody have to know when
to dose more or less, right. So if I, if I got an NFL guy,
the first couple weeks, I'm pistoning, I'm scanning, I'm
twisting by the week 12, I'm like, I'm going to let them sit
(13:50):
there and we're just going to kind of meditate because I've
already been beat up. I don't want to beat them up
more with the needles, right? They'll pop down on my table and
go, OK, right, whatever. But at the beginning you're
like, yeah, get that. Yeah, get that, Yeah, get that.
So it's different and the different athletes respond
differently, you know? So actually, how do you prep
(14:11):
someone who's never been dry needled before?
Oh, that's like, what do you what do you tell them?
Yeah, So I always tell people it, it depends on your setting,
right? What I've learned over the years
is if they let me do what I can do, they'll get better faster.
So one of my, no, it's not the best answer, but one of my in my
clinic is do you want me to be nice or do you want me to fix
(14:33):
you? Right?
Because I've just seen that if Ican be a little more aggressive,
they can get better. But some people are like, oh,
it'd be nice. I'm like, cool, OK, well, it
might take me longer. But again, it's I'm a big
believer in what you think aboutyou bring about, right?
And you've seen it. You've worked with athletes.
Here is 90% of their problem. So if I tell somebody, hey, this
(14:55):
is going to hurt or it might hurt or you're going to be sore,
they're going to be sore, right?So my answer when someone asked
me, hey, does it hurt? I said, yeah, some people it
does. I don't prep them to think it's
going to hurt. Some people don't.
Some people I don't needle like crazy and he thinks they're
sleeping. Other people, I poke one needle
in. You think I just stab him with a
hot poker, right? So I don't tell him.
(15:18):
And then I say, hey, am I going to be sore?
Same thing. I say some people are sore, but
if you are, it's normal for 24 to 48 hours, right?
But I don't say, hey, you're going to be sore because they
might be sore from working out and they're going to blame the
needles, right? It's a lot about buying, yeah.
Yeah, it's huge. It's huge.
I think the one of the really good things in Doctor Ma's
(15:40):
recent book, he was like, don't discount the the provider
placebo. If somebody comes in there and
they think it works, their braincan make it work.
You know, obviously there's evidence to dry needling.
I'm not, you know, doing that, right.
But if their brain, like I really like Scott.
Yeah, if I really like Scott andhe's really good at it, I feel
(16:00):
better. Is it me?
Is it their brain or is it both?They got better.
They got better. That's all I care about.
I remember somebody quoted on a,a Facebook group that I'm
involved and he said, hey, make sure your patients aren't
getting better because you charge a lot or because they
like you. And I said, I don't care if
they're getting better me, if grandma can pick up her
grandkid, I'm happy. You know, I'm not selling her
(16:22):
snake oil. I'm doing evidence based
treatment. But if it works because she
believes in it, even better. You know what about you did your
experience when you got acupuncture?
Does it hurt? No, but sometimes if they get
too close to a nerve, like I canfeel like nerve.
Yeah, especially like near my spine.
(16:43):
I can. That's when it starts to get a
little bit more tense. But I've it's never been
painful. It's funny 'cause they are far
less cautious than we are because in, in we're when we're,
when I'm teaching people like, Oh my God, that's near nerve.
And let's find an anatomy and acupuncture.
Like you'll get close to 1 and it'll Zing.
You're like, OK, cool. Like some of the points, some of
(17:03):
the points that I know are rightnear a nerve.
And if I'm teaching a student, they'll freak.
Out but if I have. A patient like that went down my
leg. I'm like cool, and I just back
it out a little bit, but it's OKto get near a nerve.
But in acupuncture that cool, suck it out, whatever and
needling people freak out. You're not going to damage a
nerve. When I tell my students, if you
think you can damage the nerve other than the sodding nerve,
(17:24):
the sodding nerve you can damagebecause it's so thick.
I said, next time you're having Angel hair pasta, try to
puncture her with a toothpick. What's going to happen?
That's the same thing. It's going to go like that, like
that. You're not going to hit it, but
every time you get near it, it'sgoing to fire.
You know, not a great way to grow your business or keep your
athletes happy. No, but it's not going to damage
it. They're going to go, OK, right,
(17:44):
right. One of the courses I took, my
partner hit my older nerve four times in a row.
I'm like, OK, we're good. Let's, let's, let's, yeah.
She's like, no, one more time. I'm like, dude, I'm not going to
be able to make a fist, so I'm all up for people learning, but
you know. Right, right, right.
I like I like that analogy of the Angel hair.
That's pretty. That's right.
Nobody's upset if you do it. Call me and show me, because you
(18:07):
can't. Same thing with blood vessels.
They don't even think about it, right?
I talked to an acupuncturist once, like, yeah, we're not
worried about it. We'll just, they don't move out
of the way. But when I teach dry needling,
we're like, know where this is, know where this is, know where
this is. But it, it, it's safer than you
think, but we just want to protect ourselves.
Absolutely. The problem with dry needling is
that there are too many people, too many other professions
(18:30):
waiting for other professions tofail so they can lose that,
right? So I always tell people, it's
like with the pneumothorax, right?
One of the things I say is it's not about what's going to happen
to the patient. They're going to be fine, right?
We, we want to make sure we don't do it obviously, but it's
what's going to happen to your profession, you know, because
there's so many people going, oh, they're not qualified,
(18:52):
they're not qualified. One of the things, and I won't
mention which state it was because I don't want to get
anybody upset. One of the states was trying to
get kneeling for athletic trainers written in black and
white like it was a Gray state. And so they decided to do a
Community Board and let the public write comments.
And the 1st 200 comments were acupuncturist, literally as rude
(19:15):
as I could ever see people. Most professions we support each
other. They were like reaming athletic
trainers. I popped on there and read
something like they're not, they're an idiot and they're
like, you don't even know they were literally they don't have
any knowledge. They only have a degree.
Like what are you talking about?And literally 200 comments.
And it was just so that they couldn't allow them to dry
needle. They didn't know anything about
(19:37):
I taught. And so I jumped in there and I
said, because a friend of mine invited me to comment, I said,
listen, I've been teaching athletic trainers for years.
They're way more than qualified to do this technique way more.
Their education extremely provides them the knowledge to
do this. But it got it got so personal.
It was like, wow, people were angry.
(19:59):
So there's a lot of professions that say, hey, it's not fair.
You can do it. And it has nothing to do with
the knowledge of the people, right?
It just has to do with, you know, people.
What is it? A scarcity mindset?
If you're giant needling, yeah, If you're giant needling, then I
can't. I can't do it all with my
patients. But people ask me, is there any
profession? And I will tell everybody up
front, I have seen good and bad in all of them, right.
(20:22):
I've taught chiropractors, PTS and probably about 30 to 40% of
all of our professions are giving us all a bad name.
The rest of them are kicking ass.
Yeah, right. There's some old PT, some old
Cairos, some old athletic trainers.
They're not. Oh yeah, I'm an athlete, you
know, you're not. Then there's people that are out
there really growing the profession and learning and
studying and being the best. And it doesn't matter what
(20:44):
profession. We all have good and bad in all
of our professors, you know. Well, even with that, like we
obviously as athletic trainers know athletic training best.
So without being in a position of like, I've never gone to PT
school, I've never gone to chiropractor school, I don't
know exactly what you guys do. I only know what I see from the
outside. And so without me taking a deep
(21:05):
dive and actually getting your perspective like I can only
exactly, I can only account for what I see.
Right. Yeah.
And it's. I mean, it's me.
It's I love, I think when I tellpeople, when when I travel
teaching, my two favorite thingsare the people I get to meet,
right? And then the food I eat.
So yeah, that's true. Yes.
(21:27):
Any city you go to. It's it's only bad when you go
to a really small town and you say, hey, what do you recommend?
And they say Applebee's. I'm like, no, no.
No. Thank you.
That's it. That's all you got.
That's that's it. Well, on a good busy night,
we'll go to Applebee's. I'm like, OK, you know, but
mostly. But the people, it's just you,
the I just, I stress this so much, especially for people, you
(21:49):
guys that are listening, doesn'tmatter where you are.
I'm a huge believer of being thebest that you can be at what you
do right and everything will happen when you're a skill based
profession like a TS and P TS and Cairos just be the best,
right? Never stop learning.
It's literally on the back of our work stores.
It says never stop learning. And I've seen it all over
(22:10):
country. Some people are just, oh man,
Scott, what do you think about this Scott?
They're they're asking me, you're sending me emails and
asking me questions and sometimes I can't even answer.
Like, dude, that's awesome. Those are the people that are
fun to be our profession, the people that are passionate about
what they do, the people who arelike, dude, that's cool.
Oh let me learn. And no egos.
When you bring an ego in a room of multi professionals it it's
(22:34):
never good you know? So if I were to, I've never seen
a dry needling session. How how often can you actually
dry? Like how long is a treatment and
then how often can you do a treatment?
Yeah, so it's typically it depends on the setting that
you're in, you know, so I one ofthe reasons I love it for the
(22:56):
athletic training session is because there's, you can let him
sit for a while. So it's a great modality when I
get these, especially when I getlike a small university when
there's like 2A TS for, you know, 17 teams and they're like,
what do I do it now? Come in there and they're like,
oh, I'm hurt. And you can have needles in this
guy, needles in this guy, needles in this guy and let him
(23:16):
sit for 20 minutes while you're doing something else, you know,
because one of the best ways is have time and sit to how long
can that needle stay in there. So for me, typically a session,
if it's in my clinic, it's about30 minutes.
I'm just needling. I don't do any corrective
exercise. I don't do any of that 'cause I
refer out If I'm travelling to apro, it's two hours.
(23:38):
But they get, you know, yeah, they get front of the body, back
of the body. I mean, they're, they're getting
needle like crazy. And typically because it's based
on the body's ability to heal, Idon't recommend any more than
every three days you have most and that's with a young healthy
person. The hard part is, like I said in
your setting is those kids are going to come in there and be
like, needle me, needle me. I'm like, I just needled you
(24:00):
yesterday, right? And then they're like, you just
explain to them that their, their body needs time to heal,
you know, and then when you think about, I think when you
think about dosing, as I mentioned before, it's, it's
very different in athletic training because you're trying
to juggle, you don't want a needle because one of the main
(24:21):
things of needling, whether it be acupuncture or dry needling
is to turn on the Paris in that nervous system.
It's a recovery. So you don't want a needle and
then go to practice or needle and then go to competition.
And so when you got this collegeor high school athlete or pro,
when are they not playing? When are they not?
So they'll come in in the morning and say needle me and
they got to compete that that's not good.
(24:42):
So it's much harder than in a PTor a chiropractor setting where
you can needle and send them home.
So that's the challenge of the athletic training is when can I
needle? Because they're playing every
day, right? And so learning to not and then
knowing what the dosing is. So when you're working with an
athlete and you needle them on Friday and you put 30 needles in
(25:03):
there, they're not going to be good on Saturday, right?
They need, but now you can put 2needles in there and stem it.
But if you put a ton of needles,that's micro lesion, micro
lesion, they're not going to heal by Saturday and be at their
peak performance. So I think juggling that with
needling is a little bit harder in the athletic training setting
versus in the private practice, you know?
(25:26):
You kind of already touched on it a little bit, but can you use
the needling in conjunction withother treatments so you
mentioned like maybe doing E stem with it?
Yeah. So for me the go to without a
doubt is red light, Red light needling is.
I mean I have a huge one that sits on there on my patients.
I'm such a big fan of red light.We actually have partner to the
(25:47):
company called Fringe that does,I think she was.
Yeah. Friends is amazing.
Their red lights are incredible.And so we we set up panels on my
patients and then I recommend the raps.
The other thing for me, without a doubt, and I got this from a
very good friend of mine. It's OK if I give him a shout.
Mitchell Spud. He's AATC at Missouri State,
(26:08):
probably one of the best rehab guys I know in the country.
He's been an instructor for RockTape for like 10 years, and
needling and taping are like peanut butter and Jelly.
So everything I needle, I tape because you got to think, even
though the evidence does supportit, what does it needle?
What does taping do? A little blood flow and a little
bit of neural reeducation. What do you need after needling,
(26:29):
blood flow and neural rehab. So if I needle it, I'm taping it
without it all. Right.
You know, it's funny that you brought up the red light because
throughout this whole whole interview, you were talking
about like how the body's response to the needles and all,
everything that you were talkingabout, I was like, man, this is
how I explain red light to when I'm using it with one of my
(26:51):
athletes. And so it's funny that you use
them both together because I wasliterally thinking of red light
this entire time. Yeah.
That's awesome. Yeah.
I mean, it's it's, it's incredible to me now.
I just found a really giant panel that sits on top of it.
I mean, it's people love it. It it's so easy to I've got 2 in
my dining room that I just do for my yoga that I got from
(27:12):
friends, the little red light. So I just lay there.
You if you go back on my podcast, I interviewed the lady
who started it and you can see she's all red.
She's got, she even put on a little hat and they got one for
concussions and she's wearing this little Red Hat.
I want the face one because I'm getting older.
So I got to work in those wrinkles.
That's what I want. And I said, if you're going to
(27:33):
send me free stuff, send me the face one.
I'm getting older. Again, same thing.
I think you touched on this before.
Man, we're doing some good segues here.
Is there any like post treatmentcare that they that the patient
should kind of consider like 'cause I mean you are going into
the skin, like they have to takecare of them, clean their wound,
(27:54):
you know, just kind of stuff like that?
Yeah, yeah. So no, the needle is so thin
that they don't even like typically I'll do and it depends
on the person. Let's say somebody comes and
I'll put in 20 needles. One might bleed and it's such a
little droplet. These things are so thin.
But post treatment I always tellthem the same thing, right.
Our goal is to to get that parasympathetic.
(28:15):
So I don't want them doing anything that's going to turn up
their nervous system, right. So walking is good, you know,
moving around, just don't go home and sit on the couch, but
also don't go run a half marathon right from typically
that's about 24 hours, you know,so when we're done, big one for
me is no ice, right, because we're creating micro
(28:36):
inflammation. And I tell people when I first
tried needling 12 years ago, I would needle somebody's up trap
and they'd be sore. I'm like, oh, here's some ice.
Now that I've done it for years,I'm like, that was stupid.
I literally just went against. So yeah, no ice and then ideally
no anti inflammatories, right? So if they get sore, what's the
almost the second answer for most pops of Advil?
(28:58):
Well, now the body's not going to heal itself 'cause it's
delayed. So that's my two biggest one is
light movement that won't turn up your nervous system.
No ice and no anti inflammatories, right?
And then one of the things I recommend everybody do because
people can have some negative inthe sense of pain reactions.
It's not anything bad, but theirbody might just like respond
(29:20):
differently. Anytime I needle someone for the
first time, I'm always reaching out to the next morning.
So if you're an athletic trainerand you treat an athlete, hey,
shoot him a text the next morning.
Hey, how you feeling? Because I'd rather nip that in
the butt if like, dude, that freaking sucks.
Because if you don't nip it, they're going to tell every
other guy on the team or girl onthe team, right?
You're not going to build a needle.
(29:40):
But I at least text him and say,hey, man, how you feeling?
Yeah, it's a little sore, but it's getting better.
OK, cool. That way you can talk him down
from the. Oh, my God, my legs going to
fall off. You know, I know how dramatic
some of these athletes can be. They're sore and then they're
done for the season. And.
Yeah. I mean, it's again, it's that
education piece, it's that connection.
(30:02):
Are there any contraindications for dry needling or someone you
would be like? I probably shouldn't dry needle
you. Yeah, it's funny.
So there's there's quite an extensive list of like
traditional, but what I tell my students is they can't do
negative based outcome research.So they can't say, hey, let's
take this population that we think it would hurt and try to
(30:22):
hurt them that would never pass any IR boards.
So yeah, the contraindications are based on what we think would
happen, right? Like you have, you have an
autoimmune disease. If I needle you, it might not go
well because body's built. But what I always recommend
people is testing one or two needles, right?
Let's say they're on blood thinners.
It's probably not your population.
(30:43):
Put a couple needles in there. Oh, they did OK.
For me, it's different because in my clinic, that's why they're
there. So I'm less likely to send
somebody away. If somebody's in my clinic, they
came for needling versus let's say you're in an athletic
training room, like, hey, I've learned this new modality, I'd
like to try it. And then your athlete says,
well, I have this. I can't get needled.
(31:04):
Like, well, let's try one, see how you do.
You know, I've had patients comein with autoimmune and they got
needled all weekend. You know, I've had other
patients put in one needle and they, they're in tears and
they're crying and they don't want to get needled all weekend.
And they had no contraindications except that
it's lame needling, right? So yeah, it, there are some
listed in the literature, but again, it's, it's a pretty safe
(31:28):
technique as long as, you know, when I, when I teach, I tell
people you only need two things to be a great John Needler,
right? Really good anatomy and really
good palpation. If you know anatomy and you
know, good hands, John Needling's easier.
I can teach my 13 year old daughters how to tap the needle
(31:48):
in, but it's knowing where to put it based on anatomy and
palpation, you know? And then knowing the why, right?
For sure. Yeah.
It's funny that you bring up autoimmune because autoimmune is
actually one of the reasons why I go to acupuncture all the
time. Interesting.
OK. So yeah, not contraindicated
there. I get great results from then.
(32:11):
Any when you're sore at all the next day or no you just go in
and go out. Yeah nice.
You should try dry needle. I should.
Well, now I want to. So does it vary?
Does it vary state to state how dry needling fits in an athletic
trainer's scope of practice? Or how you explain that to
athletic trainers to make sure you get that question all the
(32:32):
time. It does.
It's it's in every state, like from PTS, the Kairos, some are
we got a lot of Gray states, right, Which means it's not yes
or no. And it's it's always tell
people. It's kind of like my kids.
If I didn't say they could, I didn't say they can't.
Technically they can do it. Yeah, right.
Yeah, it's great. You didn't say no, Dad.
(32:54):
Right. Same thing with a lot of, like
when I looked up, I'm lecturing to a big chiropractic board here
in a couple months, and they're like, it's not technically
allowed in like 20 states. So how do we have you come in?
But twenty of those states are Gray states, which means they
say don't. The only problem that gets you
in trouble is if you're in a Gray state and you're completely
(33:15):
good at what you do, you're fine.
But if you hurt somebody, they're going to go back to
what's written in the law and you're in trouble.
You know, that's what the, the state that we talked about when
they did that board for the public, that state, it wasn't in
black and white. So if it's not in black and
white in your state, you can do it.
But if somebody gets hurt and you, the law is going to be,
Hey, you're not allowed to do this.
(33:37):
So that's, that's kind of the Gray area, you know, and, and
try to find different. There's so many different
techniques out there. You know, one of the things
hopefully on, on, I don't know if you do, but on the end of the
podcast, you guys can put information.
I don't care if people come to my company, but it's such a
great modality to learn. Anybody can reach out to me.
(34:00):
And I'll recommend there's so many good different companies
out there that if they're like, Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm treating this
population. Who do you recommend?
I've taken them all, every dry dealing company out there, I've
taken your courses. I'm happy to recommend if
there's one closer than mine or,or whatever, you know, but it's
just, it's, it's a great tool tohave a new toolbox.
(34:20):
For me. It's it's especially as we age,
the one thing I get from a lot of flex trainers is we do so
much manual and your hands just get, you know, and you got, and
it's a lot more like we're in our setting, you know, we're not
seeing the number of people thatyou guys are and these people
are flooding in and working my shoulder and working my knee and
like I've seen athletic trainingrooms.
(34:42):
I'm like, dude, you guys, kudos to you.
I got my one patient and I'm stressed.
You guys are juggling, you're juggling tables full right And
they all want your hands on them.
So that's what I love about that.
It just saves you over the long term.
You know, it's nice to have thatin your back pocket.
You're like, all right, I'm, I'mdone working on your shoulders
here. There's some needles.
Have you ever dry needled yourself?
(35:04):
All the time, all the time, all the time.
And I love it. It's it's I remember the first
course I took, it was evidence of emotion.
I saw that we had to needle our own forearm and I was sweating
bullets. I'm like, I mean, I'm looking at
the page. I'm like, it's two more pages.
It's two more pages. I was so scared Now, I mean, I
do it all the time. So every year for Halloween, I
(35:25):
put 20 needles in my face and I go to the floor.
My daughters love it. They're like, do the do the
needle thing. Do the needle things, Dad,
right? And nobody says anything.
It blows me away. I'm in a grocery.
Store hilarious. Guys are like, is this all for
you today? I'm like Yep, and he's looking
at me but he doesn't want to sayanything.
He doesn't want to say anything.Yeah, he's like, go something
(35:46):
right there. But in in the five years I've
been doing it, nobody says anything.
It's crazy. I guess they don't.
They want to know the real answer because it might be
weird, you know? Yeah, they may.
They don't want. They don't want to.
Ask they're going to they're going to text their they're
going to text their friends. After your loop, this guy walked
in. Weirdo camera.
Or when I'm teaching, there's a really good acupuncture right
(36:07):
here. So I'm teaching.
I'll just take a needle, tap it,and the students are just like
looking at it the whole time. They're like, oh, is that in
your brain? Like let's kind of review
anatomy a little bit. There's this little thing before
my brain that. Your your brain.
Your brain is pretty protected. Yeah, right.
But that's OK. And that, that's one of the
things I, it's pretty funny. I tell my I've got 3 instructors
(36:30):
now. I tell them, I said you have to
be ready for the dumb questions and you have to respond
lovingly. I literally had a student come
up to me and said, hey, if they've had a Laminectomy, do we
still hit the lamina? And I went no, because it's not
there. OK, cool.
And watch where my you remember medical terminology.
(36:50):
That was in school, right? I think, right.
So you know I had a girl asked me if the infraspinatus was in
the shoulder or in the PEC. Oh.
Yeah. That was a no, you're not me.
That was a degreed professional.I'm like wow.
Wow. Yeah.
Have you had any issues with people like scared of needles or
(37:11):
anyone like pass out or anything?
Oh, God, yes, yeah. The the needle phobia is huge.
It's it's we just had I taught this last weekend in Terre Haute
at Indian State University. And the hardest thing, So in my
clinic over 12 years, it's only been two people.
I passed out and my course is it's about 25.
Over 2 years. And that's because they have to
(37:33):
self needle. That's what gets people.
You got a needle in your quad and you're like, but other than
that, nobody has history but that self needling that gets a
lot of people. And one guy this weekend he's
his partner grabbed him and he he was white for about 3 hours
and he. Was the poor guy.
Yeah, it's just that self kneeling.
(37:55):
I just, but you know, I've had other people that they're just
extremely reactive and it's weird, like I had one person a
couple weeks ago in West Palm and every needle was like, I
just stabbed her soul. And I'm like, it's just like
screaming and yelling and it freaks the rest of the class
out. Yeah, for the most part, I would
(38:15):
say 80% of people. Oh, it's cool, whatever, it's
fine, you know, but you're goingto get that one person.
And I'm sure you guys, if once you start to get out there and
learn dry needling, you're goingto have athletes that come in
there and I don't care what you do to them.
And then other ones that are like, you know, you put one
needle and they're crying. There's also really good, as you
guys know, if you do a lot of manual, there's a really good
(38:37):
book called the body keeps score, right?
And there's, there's that huge emotional and I, I just had a
girl a couple months ago in one of the classes.
I'm needling her and she just starts bawling.
I'm like, Oh my God, did it hurt?
She's like, no, I said, why are you crying?
She's like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't know either.
But now we're both crying. I mean just bawling like it just
(38:58):
triggered something. Just that relief.
Man she couldn't stop for like 5minutes and she's like laughing
and crying at the same time as it was interesting.
That's interesting. That's wild.
That's. Cool.
Yeah, we, yeah, there's definitely some connections to
our, our trauma in our, in our body, you know?
Yeah, well, I was going to say the brain is so powerful when
(39:19):
you were talking about like selfneedling and, you know, just the
the reaction that you get, even the anticipation of.
Oh God dude yeah. If you've never been needle
before it's it could definitely be a bit traumatic.
From a experience from a passer outer.
So I have had just a brief experience of trying.
(39:42):
It literally is the one time 'cause I want to try it and I
did fine. I was I was I.
Was. Proud that he did fine, yeah.
And he did the he did the calf right.
Yes, did the calf, so I didn't see it.
That's the safe bet, right? That's the safe bet.
And then, yeah, usually it's like blood draws that I go out
more. Yeah, I hate it.
(40:04):
I'll go. And I just had some blood work
done the other day. I get stressed out, but I can
put 20 meals on my face and a needle my own just to iliacus.
And if you know where the iliacus attaches, I'm like,
dude, I got this with a 75 millimeter needle.
I'm like, I don't mind, but drawmy blood.
I'm like. Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, usually it's the anticipation that makes it.
(40:26):
Worse, Yeah, I think people justtalk themselves out.
I had one guy so funny, I'm kneeling his back and he's like,
I'm doing like the multifida andhe's like, you're in my spine.
Like I'm not in your spine, you're in my spine.
I'm like dude, you would know ifI was in your.
Spine. Right, right, right in.
My spine, I'm like, OK, I'll take the needle out.
And he was screaming like I was needling his spine.
(40:47):
I said dude, it would be a much more intense reaction.
Yeah, right, right. Fine, and he never came back,
'cause apparently I'd needle to spine.
And then another guy that was face down in the thing stood up
because he was face down his eyes and he stood up.
He's like, I can't see. I can't see.
I think you made me blind. I'm like, I do.
(41:08):
But it was the the pillow from being Yeah.
He goes. He goes 2 minutes later he's
like, OK, I'm good. Oh my.
I didn't make you blind. I promise.
Right and. Then I'm like I hope.
Yeah, right, right. So we like to also finish up
like wrap up with an action item, something that that
athletic trainers can take away from this.
(41:30):
Obviously we have so much from today, but just if there's one
piece of something you can wrap up.
Something that athletic trainersshould know before looking into
adding dry needling into their practice.
I was gonna keep it going more simple.
It's just just go learn. I don't care who it's from, just
go learn. I mean, it's such a great tool
to have in your toolbox. I mean, there's everybody.
(41:53):
One of my favorite parts about teaching is I really encourage
people to send me success stories.
I don't use them for marketing or anything, but I'm like, and
some of the results I get are socool.
They're like, dude, Doctor Scott, I did this and this guy
was so get certified. I don't care who it is.
There's amazing companies out there.
If you're an athletic trainer and it's allowed in your state,
(42:15):
just go get certified, right? That's my advice.
Just learn it, you know, and it's, it's such a great tool to
have. It's just be cautious because
some companies only do upper andsome do lower.
So look for those ones that do like the total body.
Yeah, there's, there's some really good ones out there.
And again, if you give anybody my contact information, I'll be
(42:35):
happy to to share with them. What was great about the
conversation that we had with Scott was he you could really
sense the passion that he has onthis kind of like treatment
technique, especially knowing that how many courses he's taken
for dry needling and then to eventually start his own
(42:58):
educational courses on the technique.
So I think I think that's reallycool.
You can tell this is someone whoreally believes in one what what
he's teaching but also using it as a clinician.
We always, always, always talk about how it's really nice when
the person teaching is actually someone who does it on a regular
basis, and you just have a different level of experience
(43:19):
and understanding of that technique beyond what the book
tells you. Yeah, and it kind of helps give
you the ability to troubleshoot things because as we've learned
as practicing athletic trainers,life isn't quite like the book.
So I'm sure for dry needling that would be the same.
People present differently for different things.
(43:40):
So if you are more interested inactually taking one of his
courses, Scott did share with usthat any athletic trainer who
takes any athletic dry needling course will get $200 off.
So you just have to send him an e-mail and he'll honor that for
you, for any athletic trainer. With that, if you guys are new
to our podcast, we do several types of episodes here on AT
(44:02):
Corner. Not just interviews like the one
that we just had with Scott, butwe also do story episodes and
Education episodes. Story episodes are episodes
where we take a highlight topic and we ask athletic trainers all
over the world to submit their stories about that topic.
And then we come in and talk about it, whatever it is and
share those stories. And then we also have ACU
(44:24):
education topics that Randy heads that he reads a lot of
research and we present that in a conversational format.
So make sure you check those out.
And if you're interested in getting those BOCCUS, we do have
those available. There are several free as as to
take advantage of, especially aswe are moving towards this, this
(44:48):
actual new date, February of a reporting year.
But over the past five years, we've had several different
topics and episodes too for you guys to check out.
And as always, if there's anything that you'd like to
hear, please send it over as we would love to try and cover it.
Do you got anything else, Randy?Nope.
That's perfect. Thank you for helping us
(45:09):
showcase athlete training behindthe tape.
Bye.
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