February 17, 2025 • 55 mins
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Retired U.S. Marine Corps Colonel Seth Folsom joins “At the Boundary” to discuss his new book, "Nothing Here Worth Dying For," a gripping account of leading Task Force Lion in Iraq. He explores trust, adaptability, and leadership in combat, as well as the challenges of balancing professional conflicts with personal bonds.
This episode dives into the evolution of warfare, the power of relationships in conflict zones, and the lasting impact of command.
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Links from the episode:
• GNSI Tampa Summit 5 Conference Registration
• North Korea, Nuclear Threats & the Fight for a Unification Video
• Cambridge University Student Program
• “Nothing Here Worth Dying For: Task Force Lion in Iraq" by Seth Folsom
At the Boundary from the Global and National Security Institute at the University of South Florida, features global and national security issues we’ve found to be insightful, intriguing, fascinating, maybe controversial, but overall just worth talking about.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim Cardoso (00:00):
Jim, hello everyone. Welcome to another
(00:14):
episode of at the boundarypodcast from the global and
national security Institute theUniversity of South Florida. I'm
Jim Cardoso, Senior Director forgenocide, your host for at the
boundary.
First off, today, I want tothank all the speakers, guests
and attendees who spent timewith us last week at the St
(00:36):
Petersburg conference on worldaffairs. This year's conference
was titled the ties that bind usand focused on the theme of
allies and partners. As WinstonChurchill famously said, there's
only one thing worse thanfighting with allies, and that
is fighting without them. We'veenjoyed uniting again with the
St Petersburg conference onworld affairs as we explored
(00:58):
alliances and partnershipsacross every region of the
world. If you are unable toattend, the videos will soon be
available on the conferencewebsite, World Affairs
conference.org keep an eye outfor those in the coming weeks.
Speaking of videos, check outthe latest video we dropped on
our YouTube channel, a deep diveinto North Korea's nuclear
(01:19):
ambitions, their escalatingrelations with Russia, and
whether or not the dream of aunified Korean peninsula is even
in the realm of possibility.
GNSI, Senior Research Fellow, DrRob Burrell, spoke with special
guest David Maxwell, vicepresident of the Center for Asia
Pacific strategy. We'll drop alink in our show notes. Finally,
a quick reminder that theapplication window is still open
(01:41):
for USF students to apply toattend the International
Security and IntelligenceProgram at Cambridge University
this summer. GNSI is sending onestudent to the program, and if
you'd like to be that student,or know someone who might go to
our website for more info andthe application, we'll also drop
a link to apply in our shownotes on today's episode, we'll
(02:01):
be talking with Colonel SethFolsom, who retired from the US
Marine Corps in 2022 after 28years of service. He's just
written a new book about hisexperiences during the latter
stages of the war in Iraqentitled nothing here worth
dying for, Task Force lion inIraq, published by the United
States Naval Institute Press.
(02:22):
The book goes into freneticdetails of some of folsoms
command of Task Force lion, theculmination of nearly three
decades in uniform, whichincluded multiple deployments to
Iraq and Afghanistan. This isactually his fourth book, all of
which focus on a particularaspect of the wars in these two
countries. Our ExecutiveDirector here at GNSI, retired
Marine Corps General FrankMcKenzie wrote a review which
(02:44):
states his articulate andinsightful book adds to the
considerable literature aboutMarines and small unit actions.
This is a book all Marinesshould read. Seth, great to have
you on the program. Thanks, Jim.
It's really great to be here. Iappreciate it. So we'll dive
into the book in a bit. Butbefore doing that, besides
writing books and gettingpublished, what have you been up
to since you retired from theMarine Corps?
Seth Folsom (03:07):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I talked to a
lot of people before theyretired, and before or after
they retired and before Iretired. And you know, some of
the advice that I got fromfriends and mentors was, don't
go right back into work afteryou retire. Take time off.
(03:27):
Figure out what you want to dowith your life. You know you've
earned that time off. And so Itook the uniform off in August
of 22 after I retired from outof command from headquarters
battalion in First MarineDivision. And I planned exactly
that. I planned, you know, fiveor six months of almost a
sabbatical, and that lasted justa couple of months before I was
(03:50):
really climbing the walls. Youknow, one thing, one thing for
sure, that I knew was I was Iwas done being a Marine, and I
was ready to take the uniformoff, but I still missed working
with the Marines and working,you know, to support the
mission, because we're at acritical point in our history
(04:12):
right now, and so I found my wayinto a job supporting one Marine
Expeditionary Force, one methout here at Camp Pendleton,
California, and I support themwith a lot of some operational,
sometimes some strategicplanning and conveying, you
know, some of my experience as aas a Marine, as a colonel, as an
(04:35):
infantry Officer and and helpingthem, you know, get it done in
these kind of uncertain daysahead.
Jim Cardoso (04:46):
Yeah, you know, I was the same way. I heard this.
I got the same exact advice,sought to do the same thing. And
I think, I think I made it abouta month after I retired that I
was on with a company, again, acompany that was. That was
doing, actually, as a companythat did modeling and simulation
here in Tampa, one to stay inTampa, but, but, yeah, it's,
(05:06):
it's funny, and I think thatprobably our respective spouses
would probably prefer not tohave us. They love us, but maybe
not have us hanging around thehouse too much either 100% so,
and, you know, and actually, youtalked about, in my sense, too,
when you with that answer youjust gave, it's, you know,
(05:27):
you're ready to leave theservice, but the people you
worked with and what the servicestands for is still something
that's in, it's, it's encodingin you almost. And, you know,
we'll talk more about that. Ithink your book really, really
talks a lot about that too.
Seth Folsom (05:43):
Yeah, I mean, that's true. It's, you know,
I've used the term indoctrinatedand institutionalized before,
and that's true too. And like Isaid, I was, I was absolutely, I
was ready to hang it up and atleast hang the uniform up. But I
still had, and still have adesire to serve, and I feel like
(06:06):
what I'm doing now with theMarines, there's still a
component of or an element ofservice to it, and I'm just
doing it in a differentcapacity. And what, what I
really enjoy about what I do nowis I'm largely doing it on my
own terms, which is different.
Is much different than you know,when you are in uniform and
(06:29):
you're beholden to the service,you're beholden to the culture
and all the internal andexternal pressures that come
with the job, especially as asenior officer. Yeah,
Jim Cardoso (06:43):
yeah. The company I went to was had a lot of former
military, retired military folksin it, so it was a good it was a
good environment to be in andand the people there were, they
were thinking along the lines ofhow to help the warfighter. I
mean, it's a for profitbusiness, and that's part of it,
too, obviously, but, but whenthe people you work with still
have the same kind of mindsettowards service, towards helping
and doing things to help the warfader, it's a it's a good place
(07:06):
to fall into, and it continues,kind of a sense of of service as
you move forward to the next,the next phase of life.
Seth Folsom (07:15):
Yeah, completely.
And I think I'm, you know, Ithink I'm in that next phase of
my life, and my wife and I talkabout this regularly. I don't
think like I don't think thatI'm a workaholic, but I do enjoy
the work, and I do enjoy havingthat sense of purpose that
people have talked about before.
(07:36):
Of you know, getting up in themorning, doing your routine and
going and doing somethingmeaningful, as opposed to just
sitting around and wasting away.
I am. I'm not at a point in mylife where I'm ready to just,
you know, sit on the porch anddrink beer all day and think
about all the great things thatyou know that happened in the
past. I like to think that, youknow, like some of the best
(07:59):
years of my life and with myfamily. You know that those are
still ahead? Yeah,
Jim Cardoso (08:06):
the sitting on the porch and beer drinking days are
out there, but not quite yet.
Yeah, totally. So speaking ofnot wasting time, I mean, so you
just finished this book,actually, at the time we
published this podcast that'sgoing to be coming out, I think
the next day, basically, sopeople will be able to go on,
you know, the US, NavalInstitute, press, or even
(08:26):
Amazon, or whatever, to get it.
What? Why'd you write the book?
I mean, what overall messagesDid you want readers to take
away from it?
Seth Folsom (08:38):
Well, you know, first and foremost, the reason
that I wrote the book was aboutthe Marines and the sailors and
all the other service membersthat were part of the task force
Alliance team that they theexperience that I had with them
was so pivotal in my you know,ongoing education as a Marine
(09:01):
and as an officer and commander,and I just, I felt like I had to
tell their story, and which, youknow, it's not really a
surprise, because the otherthings I've written, they have
been centered around the peoplethat I've worked with in Iraq
and Afghanistan. Because, youknow, at the end of the day, no
(09:21):
matter you know what we talkabout with lethality and all
domain operations and blah,blah, blah, at the end of the
day, what we do is a peoplebusiness. It's a people business
that's centered around teams andteams of teams, and we can't do
what we're expected to do in theservice of the nation without
(09:43):
these teams to absorb themission and get after it and to
accomplish it and doing, youknow, really, whatever it takes.
And the team that I had withTask Force Alliance was one of,
if not the best team that Iever. Worked with, and I was
just, I knew every day that Iwas blessed to have them with
(10:06):
me, and we had each othersmacks, and I felt like I just
had to tell that story. Theother story that I really felt
like I had to tell was was, youknow, one slice of the story
that goes with OperationInherent Resolve and the defeat
ISIS campaign, and inparticular, the story of Task
(10:28):
Force alliance is one that noone knows about. You know when I
was in Afghanistan in 2011 with,with the battalion that I was
the CEO for third battalion,seven Marines. Three seven had a
history, a great history.
Everybody knew about threeseven. Everybody knew what was
going on in Afghanistan. Down atthe battalion level, there was a
(10:51):
lot of attention within theMarine Corps on what the
battalions were doing. The samewith my experience with Delta
company in the Iraq invasion in2003 the entire world was
watching that everybody knewabout it. But what task force
Alliance was doing in Iraq in2017 I found out really early on
(11:14):
that no one knew what's goingon. Very few people knew about
what these advises and enabledtask forces were doing. The
focus, you know, in the mediaand things that people were
writing about. Well, there was alot of focus on what was
happening in Mosul with thefight there, there was a lot of
(11:36):
focus on strikes that werehappening in the campaign in
Syria, primarily with SOF, butthere was, there was nothing
about what these small, diverseadvise and assist task forces
were doing, and because of what,you know, what the team
accomplished there. I just feltlike I had to tell that story. I
(11:58):
had to let everybody know thatthere was this small group of
men and women who were puttogether, you know, in just a
matter of months, and went outand accomplished a an
extraordinary mission inextraordinary circumstances when
not a lot of people thought thatthey could do it.
Jim Cardoso (12:18):
Yeah, I like the way that you really focused,
especially up front, on the onthe individual members of the
team, and kind of showing the, Iwould say, the eclectic nature
of the team. I mean, you had alldifferent folks coming from all
different walks of life,different career fields, whether
in the Marine Corps the Navy,very different personalities.
(12:40):
Some, some were kind of laidback, laconic. Some were very
fired up and intense. You know,I think, I think people
sometimes who are not familiarwith the military get a get a
general sense of, oh, this iswhat all military folks are
like, and it's not the case atall. You know, your team is, was
extremely diverse, extremelycapable, too. But I think it
(13:01):
lent a humanity to the overallstory that was told in that,
okay, these are real people withreal, you know, attributes,
whether admirable attributes,some are kind of annoying
attributes. I mean, they're realhuman beings that were all out
to execute this mission. Andthen, I think, then watching
things move forward from there.
It really, it really gave thestory a level of just a level of
(13:25):
depth. That was that, as areader, I appreciated even
envisioning what, what timesthat you didn't describe in the
book were like, What were downtimes like I could almost
envision, well, I see, I feellike I know this guy, I feel
like I know this girl right now,and I can see how they may have
gotten along or maybe didn't getalong at some times in a very
intense combat environment.
Seth Folsom (13:47):
Yeah, you know that, and that was the challenge
from the get go. How was, youknow, how the team was formed?
You know, so often, most unitsthat deployed, circumstances
like that, they deploy asgenerally cohesive units that
have their own culture, climateand identity. And the the team
(14:09):
that that was brought togetherhere in Southern California, it
was a team that was 100% made ofindividual augments. And you
know what, I'm what I'veperiodically reminded people and
I now finally look back on wasthe fact that the team that we
formed here in Camp Pendletonwas composed of 85 Marines and
(14:34):
Sailors from 35 differentcommands across the southwestern
United States that at CampPendleton, 29 palms Miramar down
in Yuma, Arizona. Those Marinesall converged here at Camp
Pendleton to form the core ofour Task Force headquarters. And
they they were all incrediblytalented. And as you said, it
(14:55):
was a diverse group of multiplespecialties, multiple.
Backgrounds and but what theteam lacked was it lacked a
unifying identity. In a lot ofcases, if a marine or any
service member gets assigned asan individual Augment, many
times, they report to anexisting headquarters and
(15:16):
they're just a, you know, fillin the blank Staff Officer or
what have you. In this case, itwas an entire team of individual
augments, and we had no identityto fall in on. And so we had to
create our own identity and and,you know, for better or for
worse, that fell to me to definewhat that identity was going to
(15:39):
be for the team. And but theonly way we could do that was
for me to ensure that that theyunderstood from the from the
outset, this is what our missionis. This is what we're going in
to do. This is what we have tobe prepared to do. And we only
have a couple of months to getready to go. And so, you know, I
(16:00):
spent a lot of time in thebeginning, really trying to
absorb the details of the peoplethat were in the team. And like
you said, it was an eclecticgroup, incredibly diverse and
and, you know, despite all ofthe buzz that's going on right
now about the evils ofdiversity, one of the things
(16:21):
that I learned over over timewas the diversity of Task Force
Alliance headquarters was whatmade it so strong. It was the
different backgrounds, thedifferent perspectives, the
different experiences that allthese men and women had. And
then when we actually got incountry and we began partnering
up, not only with our Iraqipartners, but also with our
(16:44):
coalition partners such as theDanes, the Norwegians, the
French, the Brits, that thatdifferent group of people coming
together, it forced us toexamine the problem set from
multiple angles, as opposed togoing in with, you know, one
common mindset that's there washigh bound and unable to, you
(17:09):
know, to change on the fly, sothat this diverse team that I
had, like I said, I spent a lotof time absorbing who they were
and where they'd come from. And,and, you know, occasionally I
had to kind of sit back andlaugh at some of the things that
these people had done. I mean,we had on the team, you know, my
(17:31):
my deputy was a staff judgeadvocate who'd come from the
Marine logistics group. And youlook at this guy, and he had
like, he looked like Don Draperfrom Mad Men. And he had, he had
this background where he had,you know, he had tutored people
in English when he lived inJapan. He lived over in France.
(17:51):
He spoke, spoke multiplelanguages. And he was, like to
say he was a, he was an eclecticcharacters that, like the
understatement of the year. Youknow, we had people like my
operations officer, who was a,was a very, you know, tight
lipped, very serious minded guy,just in general, he just didn't
(18:12):
like to talk. When he did talk,he knew he was he meant
business, but he had a very drysense of humor. And, you know,
you know, you almost had to pullinformation out of him until he
got excited about something.
But, you know, also on the team,I mean, we had like, we had an
amateur rodeo rider. We had awoman who was a fitness
instructor. We had a couple ofamateur bodybuilders on the
(18:33):
team. We had a Marine who hadmultiple degrees. Had worked in
the government before and workedin the private sector. I mean,
the list goes on and on, andeach one of these individuals
brought their unique talents andbackgrounds to the team, and
that that just made us astronger group altogether, once
(18:54):
we figured out what thatidentity was, and once we, you
know, bumped up against eachother a couple of times in the
beginning, figuring out who waswho in the zoo.
Jim Cardoso (19:06):
Yeah, let's, let's pull that thread a little bit,
because, you know, yours is a,it's a, it's a, it's a combat
zone, war time story. But youknow, some of the, I would say,
the team dynamics and themanagement lessons and practices
that you adhere to and your teamadhere to, there's, I would say
(19:29):
there's applicability to thebusiness sector, to other areas
that are just working in thesame area of a of a diverse,
unique team, maybe a new team,maybe small team dynamics, and
just trying to get everybody onthe same sheet of music towards
whatever you're in this case,you know a combat mission. In
(19:50):
other cases, you know some typeof objective or goal that a
business unit may have. I mean,can you, can you draw any, I
guess, lessons from your time?
There that, that you can see,that would which you learn from,
from your experience, Yeah,
Seth Folsom (20:06):
completely. You know, one of the things that I
realized early on, and I mean, Ithink I really learned this when
in a previous assignment, when Iwas on the joint staff, but, but
I internalized it when I waswith this particular team, and
that's the idea that justbecause you are the senior
(20:26):
person in the room and you're incharge doesn't mean you have all
the answers. It doesn't meanthat you're all that you're
always right. And theenvironment that evolved over
time, I don't even know that Ihad anything directly to do with
it, but the environment thatevolved over time was we created
(20:46):
a space where everybody's voicewas heard, everybody had the
opportunity to weigh in. And Ithink, I think it evolved that
way because the mission demandedit. You know, we had, we had
weekly future operations arecalled fops, weekly fops sync
meetings in my office each week.
And you know, it started out asit was a it was a session every
(21:10):
week where the future ops teamwould brief different things
that were coming up and wouldseek guidance from me and seek
decisions. And it became, itbecame a very collegial format,
where everybody was chiming in,you know, multiple times and
having discussion, which I have,I have rarely seen before, done
(21:35):
in front of a commander, wherethere is, there's this back and
forth, and these, theseinteractions where people are
actively disagreeing with eachother or or bringing up a point
that hadn't been pre briefed.
And you know it, I guess it'ssomething that could have
devolved into chaos, but itinstead, it's synchronized
(21:58):
everybody. And like I said, thatthat element of everybody having
a seat at the table andeverybody having a voice in the
conversation, that it enabled,it enabled them to fully inform
me for the decisions that I hadto make as we went forward each
week. And I think there was alsoa, there was a social component
to it as well, because, again,these meetings started out very
(22:21):
formal with everybody around,you know, a briefing table in my
office. And over time theywould, the meeting swelled to
almost standing room only in myoffice at Al Asad and Marines
would, would stake out spots onthe couch. You know, many
minutes in advance, did bring ina book to read while they were
(22:42):
waiting, because everybodywanted to be involved in this
interaction that the team washaving. And it wasn't again, it
wasn't just the senior membersof the team, it wasn't just me
and the majors who were on mystaff. It was them. It was their
deputies, it was their chiefs.
Others would pop in just to seewhat was going on. And in the
end, it was something that I wasproud of, because we were, we
(23:06):
were accomplishing somethingeach week, and at the same time,
everybody was interacting asfriends, colleagues and really
just humans, yeah,
Jim Cardoso (23:15):
and they're and they're bought into the solution
as well. Look, you're thecommander, you're going to make
the decision, and they allunderstand that. But I mean,
just from what I've heard, whatI read, I'll give you, I mean,
I'll give you credit forcreating an environment,
creating space that they canhave that conversation. Some,
you know, different commandersare different, and some don't
want to have that, that kind ofopen back and forth. They just
(23:36):
want to, you know, hear some ofthe facts, make a decision, move
on. And you, you know, you setup a an environment such that
there could be just kind of anopen discussion. You, you
allowed the time to do that, andthen when the decision was made,
at least everybody in the roomcould say, well, my point was
heard. Okay, maybe my point ofview wasn't the one that was
taken for the decision, but atleast I know I got my point out
(23:58):
and over. And I think over time,you probably created an
environment that, you know,sometimes Person A would get
their point in, and that's wherethe decision will lie along
those lines. And then thefollowing week, person B would
get their point and that'd bealong the lines of decision. And
Person A was kind of like, okay,I mean, that's all right. I
mean, it's all good. We had agood discussion about it. So,
you know, there are lessons, Ithink, for just in any general
(24:21):
management sort of situation tounderstand, I mean, leverage the
talent you have and allow it toallow it to flourish under you,
create the environment by whichit can, it can do so,
Seth Folsom (24:34):
yeah, and you know that that back and forth also
supported, you know, mydirection to the team, which
was, look, I want to heareverything that everybody has to
say, and we need to discuss andargue these points. And when
it's time for me to make mydecision, and I make that
decision, everybody needs to geton board with it and walk out of
(24:55):
the room arms length and on thesame page of music. And so I
think that. Forum, and that thatenvironment is what was, what
enabled that, that unifiedmessage every time everybody
left the room, yeah,
Jim Cardoso (25:09):
you know, one thing I liked about your book, you
know, as you go through thebook, there's obviously in a
combat environment, there's alot of strong personalities,
there's a lot of differences ofnot just in your team, but
across teams with all thedifferent partners, you are
working with a lot of strongpersonalities, most of which
thought they were right in anyparticular discussion, and you
(25:30):
did not, for lack better term,you did not identify villains.
There's no villains. Well, yeah,there was a clear villain, okay?
I mean, there's one playerbuilding that everybody was
fighting against, but as far asthe US forces and our partner,
nation, allies, you know, itcould have been so easy to do
(25:52):
so, and I think you did a reallygood job of spelling out Some of
the differences of opinion, butalso understanding that
everybody comes or somethingwith just that's their point of
view and, and they have probablysome pretty good reason to back
up their point of view.
Everybody's got a higher boss toanswer to. Everybody's a higher
mission to answer to, and, andso there was, it was a very
(26:15):
realistic presentation of howthese types of interactions
happen down range, that when alleverybody's there trying to do
the right thing for the rightreasons, just have differences
of opinion how to get there.
Seth Folsom (26:29):
Yeah, it's, it's like we, you know, I think I
mentioned the story. You know,my battalion commander from 20
plus years ago was, was fond ofsaying that, you know, most
people don't wake up on Mondaymornings and say, You know what,
I'm going to screw it up thisweek. Everybody is doing their
best. Did he say?
Jim Cardoso (26:47):
Everybody really say screw it up? Or did he say
something else? Maybe
Seth Folsom (26:51):
he may have said something else. I'll try to keep
I'll try to keep it clean. Iappreciate
Jim Cardoso (26:58):
that. But, yeah, but you know,
Seth Folsom (27:00):
I mean, the guy was right, and I recognized that
over the years. And in Iraq in2017 It was no different. Like
you said, the different thedifferent entities that we
worked with, whether they werecoalition units like the
Norwegians or the Brits or theDanes or the soft units we
looked worked alongside, or evensome of the other marine units
(27:24):
that were in theater as well.
Everybody had a particularmission that someone told them
to get after. Everybody workedfor somebody else. You know,
everybody else works forsomebody else, that that's,
that's the way it always is. Andyou know, I had, I had my
mandate that the the commanderat more scent gave me before we
(27:45):
went in theater. I had anadditional mandate that the the
CJ flick commander in Iraq, whoI was under tactical control of,
I had the mandate that he gaveme. I also had, there was also,
you know, specific guidance ordirection that was given to me
by my my parent unit here at onemeth. And so I was, I was
(28:08):
balancing all of those differentmandates and requirements and
different masters that I served,and I know that the other
entities that we worked with,were doing the same thing. Just
Just as there was a lot ofpressure on me and my team to
accomplish the mission set thatthat had been assigned to us,
(28:28):
there was a lot of pressure onthose other teams as well. And
so I tried to keep that in mind,when I had interactions with
them, or when, when we bumped upagainst each other. Sometimes it
was easier than others to dealwith, but at the end of the day,
I did, you know, that wassomething that I realized was
everybody's fighting the fight.
(28:52):
Everybody is on the same teamhere. We're all unified on the
same mission. We just have tofigure out how to make it work.
You know time now,
Jim Cardoso (29:03):
you know you relate in the book, and I don't know
how deeply you want to get intothis, but a particular challenge
with that, in one case adifference of opinion with
someone who's a friend of yours,who you'd known for a long time
in the Marine Corps. And youknow, I was in the Air Force 30
years, so I was kind ofenvisioning what this type of
person may have looked like tome, who I know that long and
(29:24):
admired and trusted and worked alot with, and, and it was, I
guess it was just verychallenging because you were on
different sides of a particularissue, again, both with your
marching orders, both with asense of the right way To do
things. And and you talk abouthow difficult it was to navigate
that, would you mind, kind of,not to give the book away and
(29:46):
not to but as comfortable as youare, mind talking about that a
bit?
Seth Folsom (29:51):
Yeah, you know that what you're talking about was it
was one of the greatestprofessional challenges, I
think, that I faced. And in myentire career, and that was, how
do you have a significantprofessional disagreement with
somebody who was a close friend?
In this case that you know thatclose friend was the the
(30:12):
commander of the Special PurposeMagda that was, that was based
down in Kuwait, and we had a, wehad, we had a difference of
opinion, and that opinion waswho was going to lead the big
operation with the Rockies toclear Western Al Anbar, my
position was, was very clear. Itbecause it was, it was the
(30:34):
mission that was assigned to me.
The CJ flick commander had toldme, within a week of my arrival
at Al Assad Task Force, yourtask force is going to partner
with the Iraqis, and you'regoing to take them all the way
to the Iraqi to the Iraqi borderwith Syria. You're going to move
with them, and you're going toget them out of their comfort
(30:56):
zone, and we're going to finishthis thing off. My my colleague
with the special purpose magtaf,he did. He didn't have the same
direct guidance on what thatmission was, but he had a he had
an extreme he was the commanderof an extremely capable unit
that had, to certain degree,many more different capabilities
(31:19):
than my own task force had, andhe believed that his unit was
best postured to take on thismission with the Iraqis and
clear out to the border withSyria. And so we eventually, we
just, we had to disagree. We hadto agree to disagree. And it, it
put a significant strain on ourfriendship. And you know, to be,
(31:42):
to be honest, I wasn't entirelysure that our friendship would
survive the deployment, becauseI knew what I had to do. He knew
what he had to do, and we justcouldn't, we couldn't connect
the dots, you know, and so, andit really, it was something that
really troubled me. It would beone thing if I was having that
(32:02):
conversation with someone that Ididn't care about and someone
that I hadn't deployed with inthe past, and, you know, drank
beers with and knew his familyand he knew mine, but that
wasn't the case. You know, wehad a history. And you know,
when you've got two people whoare strong personalities, who
(32:23):
are both type A and bothbelieve, you know, believe in
something, and you get crossthreaded. It's, it's hard, and,
you know, I think in the end, wemade it work. And I think our
friendship, in the end, beactually became stronger for it.
But I think if, you know, ifsomeone talked to him, he would
(32:43):
probably say something similar,which is, you know, it was, it
was it was it was tough. It wastough on the friendship, and it
was a tough time to be incommand,
Jim Cardoso (32:53):
yeah. But the friendship survived, though you
say, and to this day, yeah,
Seth Folsom (32:57):
yep, yep. And, like I said, I felt like, in the end,
you know, the friendship was wasstronger, but, you know, it
comes at a cost.
Jim Cardoso (33:07):
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think you see that
in thinking sometimes you want,you'll see movies of two people,
two senior leaders, who arefriends, and, you know,
throughout life, and then theyhave this disagreement, and the
movies just kind of, they haveit, and then they just move on,
and everything's fine. And inthe real world, you know,
(33:27):
there's, it's not the same, it'smore challenging, and there's
lingering feelings andlingering, you know, just how do
I deal with this going forward?
I can imagine that, would Iagain, I'm just putting myself
in your shoes, and I wasn't inyour position, but I can imagine
something would weigh on you fora while. Yeah, yeah. And
Seth Folsom (33:46):
you know what? I'll tell you one of the, one of the
significant frustrations that Ihad in this particular scenario
that we're talking about. Iwon't speak for for my friend,
but I'll tell you that that frommy perspective, it was, it was
really frustrating because, youknow, the service and our
(34:07):
respective chains of command,they knew this was going on.
They knew that there was this,you know, call it a competition
to execute the mission and andover time it really it was. What
was challenging was we bothagreed that as as colonels and
(34:28):
as commanders, we should be ableto work it out ourselves. But
the way things were operating inIraq and in CENTCOM at the time
and with the service we I just,I don't think that we were
empowered to make a lot of thosedecisions together. And in the
end, you know, from myperspective, it really felt like
(34:50):
the service and thecircumstances were were in this
this case, were pitting twocommanders against each other
when. You know, we shouldactually be cooperating and
supporting each other now again,you know, then that's not an
attempt to shift blame outward.
Is at the end of the day, I wasresponsible, you know, for the
things I did and the things thatI said and the decisions that I
(35:13):
made. But it felt like there wasnot the, you know, it felt like
there was not the degree of orthe, rather, the spirit of
cooperation that I had grown upwith in the Marine Corps. Yeah,
Jim Cardoso (35:33):
well, I mean, and I think we talk spoke of this
offline, sometimes there is acompetition, a bit of a
competition when you're downrange, when you've look you've
trained your whole life to gointo combat and execute the
mission and lead troops incombat when the time comes to do
so you want to do it. And Imean, there's, there's a little
bit of, I can seecompetitiveness sneaking in as
well, that he felt he was thebest suited for the mission, and
(35:55):
he wanted to, he wanted to leadhis troops into that. I can see
how that would happen. And thenI can also see how the service
writ large would kind of go andjust, just let them work it out.
It's, you know, the one step upfor you is probably not going to
get involved. Yeah, exactly. Youtalk about that. It was you were
tasked to go with your theIraqis, your partners, all the
(36:17):
way the Syria border. So let,let's talk about that, whole
concept of that, that thatadvisor mission that you had
there, and which you've you,which you've done before, it is
a unique mission that themilitary does undertake, and you
had some opportunities to do it.
You you know you spoke offlineabout the just the challenge,
but the honor and the privilegeand just the worthwhileness, if
(36:41):
that's even a word of thatadvisor mission. Talk a little
bit about that, please.
Seth Folsom (36:50):
Yeah, the, you know, the the advisor mission
that I did in 2017 with theIraqis was so wildly different
than the experience that I hadat a smaller level in 2008 as an
advisor. You know, interestinglyenough, both both tours I was
(37:10):
advising the same unit, Missseventh Iraqi Army Division. But
the circumstances and the, youknow, the situation in 2008 was
so wildly different than it wasin 2000 than it was in 2017 and
in 2008 you know, I was focusedat the battalion level. There
was, there was not a significantenemy situation or threat in the
(37:36):
area that we were in, and theadvising component of it really
was mostly a lot of one on onewith the Iraqis and helping them
get spare parts and get fuel andand feed and water their troops
and things like that, and andhelping them broker their, You
(37:58):
know, their intramuraldisagreements with the Iraqi
police. It just there was not awhole lot to it. Not that it
was, it's, I'm not saying thatit was unfulfilling, but when I
then flash forward to 2017 themission had grown so much. I was
no longer working at thebattalion level. We were now
(38:21):
working at the core level withthe Iraqi command that was
called the Jazeera operationscommand. You know, working with
the two star general costum, whowas the commander of the J OC,
and from from the advisingpiece, what we needed to do to
support the Iraqis was was somuch more complicated than what
(38:44):
we needed to do in 2008 it wasno longer just helping them get
spare parts and fuel andammunition. It was about getting
them the enabling capabilitiesthat they needed to prosecute
the fight against ISIS. And thatwas really, you know, the
evolution of Task ForceAlliance. It began as a 26
member advisor team that wasmodeled off of the old division
(39:07):
transition teams from from the2008 time frame, and very
quickly into the campaign, thecoalition realized that that
just wasn't enough. The Advisingcomponent, that's the Rockies
needed more than that. Theyneeded fire support. They needed
intelligence support. Theyneeded heavy logistical support.
(39:29):
And so the the advisor taskforces into that by 2017 had
beefed up to the size that theywere when, when I arrived in the
summer of 2017 and so it was, itwas no longer a focused effort
in a small piece of area. It wasnow, you know, again, operating
at the core level with theentirety of Western Al Anbar
(39:51):
Province, stretching from AlAssad all the way to Syrian
border. So very differentscenarios and very different
you. Heavy requirements betweenthe two tours in 2008 and 2017
but what, what remained the samewas that that element of
advising the, you know, therelationship building with the
(40:13):
Iraqis, the the daily, sometimeshourly, back and forth with
them, you know, helping themdevelop their plans,
encouraging, encouraging them toto get outside of their comfort
zone, to get away from Al Assadand move farther and farther
forward on the battlefield. Andso those, those advisor
elements, I think, are, they'reuniversal, and it requires, it
(40:38):
requires a unique set of skills,as Liam Neeson would say, to be
able to execute it successfully,you know. And something,
something that I learned orheard right before I became an
advisor in 2008 Marine Generalwas giving a after action brief.
(40:59):
He just come from advising duty,and he said, cultural training
is important for you to becomean advisor. But cultural
training is not the only thingthat's going to lead to your
success. And ultimately, what hesaid, and I'll clean it up, was
he said, if you're a jerk in theUnited States, you're going to
(41:22):
be a jerk anywhere else.
Jim Cardoso (41:25):
I've heard that before, and I think I know the
proper terminology too. Yeah,
Seth Folsom (41:29):
so you know, and that's, that's the thing, is
that being an advisor, it'sfunny, because, you know, you
like, in our case, we're tryingto get the Iraqis to get outside
of their comfort zone. But beingan advisor requires you to get
out of your comfort zone. Itrequires everything from molding
your schedule to their scheduleto putting yourselves in
(41:49):
positions where you may not beentirely comfortable with. It
involves a level of personalinteraction that some people
aren't comfortable with I cantell you that in my case, you
know, believe it or not, I'mactually, I'm actually an
introverted person. You know, Ilike the company of people that
(42:12):
I know and trust, but if I don'tknow someone, well, you know,
being in large groups and beingaround people I don't know, it
exhausts me. And so, you know,in my case, I had to really dig
deep to to, you know, injectmyself into situations where I
really otherwise, you know,would not be comfortable or
(42:34):
would be happy if I didn't haveto do it. But the mission
required it. And so that thatinteraction between the advisors
and the Iraqis, it, you know,it's a campaign in and of
itself, to gain that trust witheach other and build that
relationship. Because at the endof the day, you know, you know,
(42:56):
talked to, talked before, abouthow what we do is the people
business, and it's also abusiness of trust. And the
Rockies are no different thanus. You know, if they don't know
you, if they don't trust you,they're not going to work with
you. And so in our particularcircumstances, in the summer of
2017 we learned immediately, youknow, almost upon, almost from
(43:19):
the moment that we landed therethat we were going to be working
with the Iraqis, and we weregoing to go with them all the
way to the border. And so we hadto accelerate that relationship
building with them, so that theyknew who we were and who they
trust, and that they could trustus and where we were fortunate
in that regard. Was going backto the team piece that we were
(43:41):
talking about, almost all of mysenior officers on the team and
senior staff and CEOs hadexperience in Western alambar
from the early days of the IraqWar. So for me to be able to
tell my Iraqi partner my ops sowas in Al crime. And who say,
but my intelligence officer wasin Al Khan, my sergeant major
(44:05):
was in Al Khan. You know, I wasin Al 2008 you know, she was all
over the province, you know,operating that that that helped
establish that trust, thathelped helped him understand
that, you know, this is not ateam. It's not a JV team who
doesn't know what they're doing.
They've been here before. Theyunderstand the terrain, they
(44:25):
understand the operatingenvironment.
Jim Cardoso (44:29):
Yeah, the, you know, we're starting to this has
been a great conversation, and,like, actually been at it for a
while. So I do want to startwrapping up. But one of the
thing I want to kind of come outof this book for a bit for one,
one question, and just you'vewritten four books, and all of
them, I believe, all of them,about your your experiences in
Iraq and Afghanistan over theyears, as you've been you know,
(44:51):
from you know, different levelsof command, different levels of
authority. What do you think haswhat. Do you think has changed
in terms of your approach towriting these books? I mean, I
imagine, as an author, you'veevolved how you present look,
the circumstances change.
Obviously we know that. But alsoyou change as it when you went
(45:14):
from being a captain to acolonel, that changes things in
your perspective, yourperspective as well. Can you
kind of, I don't know, maybetalk me through a little bit of
how maybe you evolved and howyou approached these writings
books, how you approachedpresenting this, this, this
story, to an interested reader.
Seth Folsom (45:32):
Yeah, you know, I don't know that. I have an easy
answer to it. What I can tellyou is, you know, all these,
these stories that I've written,they've all been based on
journals that I've kept whileI've been deployed. Every time
I've deployed, I've kept apersonal journal to help me
(45:53):
capture what was going on sothat I could remember it. And
you know, because, I mean, Ieven from that first deployment
to Iraq, I remember sittingthere at certain times thinking,
if I don't capture this rightnow, I'm not going to remember
the details that I need to orthat someone needs to, you know,
(46:15):
years from now and so, you know,keeping a journal when I was
overseas was never, was never avehicle so that I could write a
future book. I've always beenvery mindful of that. People
have asked me before, you know,are you keeping a journal so you
can write a book? I had to make.
I had to make very consciousdecisions each time I deployed
(46:36):
and kept a journal that I'm notdoing this to write a book,
because that would, that wouldcolor every decision that I
made, you know, thinking, Well,how would this look if, you
know, ends up in a book one day?
So I had to, I had to do like amind split, and not even, not
(46:58):
even consider the things thatI'd written, or the things that
I might one day write. But ineach case, you know, in that
cooling down period after youget back from a deployment, I
would pull out those, thosejournals that I'd written, and I
would look through them. Andagain, in each case, there was a
story, and that story wassomething that had to be told.
(47:20):
It was the story about, youknow, what men and women do,
what ordinary men and women dounder extraordinary
circumstances. And it's, youknow, at the risk of sounding
sappy, the the stories, thebooks that I've written, they
are their love letters to themen and women that I've served
(47:41):
with, and I but I can't, becausethe stories are told from my
perspective. I just I never hadthe time or the depth of
knowledge or the understandingto write the story in the third
person about everybody. Thestories had to be told from my
perspective. And each time Iknew that with that I couldn't
(48:05):
just tell their story withouttelling my own, and I couldn't
tell my own story without notonly talking about the the
successes that I had, but justas important, the failures that
I had. You know failures. Youknow of leadership. You know,
bad decisions, mistakes. Youknow, that's the story wouldn't
(48:26):
be complete without that. Soeach, each story that I've
written has actually taken melonger and longer to write, you
know, and that was, I think thatwas a function, not only of of
my match duration as a Marineand as an officer and Commander,
but it was also a function ofthe life that I was living with
(48:47):
my family when I when I returnedin in 2003 from Iraq and started
thinking about putting togethera book, I had a lot of free time
on my hand. I mean, even thoughI was in graduate school at the
time, my wife and I were newlymarried, we had no children, and
I had a significant amount offree time that I could put this
(49:09):
thing together and edit it. Andyou know when the time for the
next book came along? Well, Ihad two small girls that were
going to join the family, andthen when, you know, the third
book came along, those thosegirls were getting older, and
then they had things going on intheir lives, and I wanted to be
a part of their life. And soeach book took me longer to
(49:31):
write from because I had morecommitments outside of time to
just sit down and compose mythoughts. And at the same time
each successive book that Iwrote, I think I put more into
it intellectually, to not onlytry to tell a better story, you
know, from just from areadability perspective, but
(49:53):
also to try to really bring outthis. So what you know when I go
when I look back on the. Firststory that I wrote, it's, you
know, it's very detailed, andit's almost like a day by day,
minute by minute, recounting ofwhat happened during the
invasion. And I suppose that'sgood from a from a history
(50:14):
perspective, but I don't knowthat I was always able to really
underscore the salient pointsthat needed to be made. There
are some salient points in thatstory, but I think they kind of
get lost in in, you know, in thesheer volume of words. So I each
(50:38):
book, I've spent more and moretime trying to figure out what
the story is already there. Whatdo I want people to learn from
it, and what am I learning fromit along the way? And what, but
what do I want people toremember it for? And so that's
ultimately why this, this mostrecent book, has taken so long
(50:59):
to to complete was I, you know,I knew this is going to be the
last thing that I write inuniform. This is going to be the
last, the last story I tellabout Marines that I've worked
with. This is going to be, youknow, my the last adventure that
I have in the Marine Corps. Whatdo people need to understand
about that story? And what dothey need to understand about
(51:23):
you know the character of modernwar. You know the the nature of
war. You know, you know the oldsaying that the nature of
warfare never changes, but thecharacter warfare is ever
evolving. Warfare, the characterof warfare has evolved to
something that people 20 yearsago, you know, wouldn't even
(51:43):
recognize it. And and with thatevolution of the character of
warfare, comes a set ofcircumstances and realities that
are are just as challenging, Ithink, as they were, you know,
in the in the horse drawn era.
Jim Cardoso (52:05):
Well, I'll tell you, it's a it's an eminently
readable book. It's ainteresting story. It moves
along. There's real characters.
There's real flesh and blood.
People in there, both the, youknow, your your team, and also
the partner nations, the Iraqis,they're fleshed out as
individuals as well, not justthis amorphous bunch and and I
(52:26):
would, I would encourage peoplethat are that are hearing us
today, to go out there and lookit up. I guess it's at the Naval
Institute Press, or probably onAmazon as well, on any place you
get your books Seth, any finalthoughts, any final comments
before we close out the podcast?
Well,
Seth Folsom (52:43):
you know, first and foremost, I appreciate you
having me on as always I am. I'malways eager to talk about the
men and women that I've workedwith, because I know that. You
know, I may have written thebook, but they provided the
story, and I'm just happy to getthat story out there to you
(53:04):
know, to tell the tale of this,this team of underdogs that a
lot of people thought wouldn'tbe able to get it done, but at
the end of the day, they gave apretty damn good showing of
themselves, and I was proud toserve with them. Proud to know
them, and just as important, I'mproud to tell their story. So
(53:24):
again, I thank you. Thank youfor having me on here
Jim Cardoso (53:27):
and appreciate your time. Seth, thanks for joining
us today. Thank you. Thanks toour special guest today, retired
Marine Corps Colonel SethFolsom, his fourth book, nothing
here worth dying for, Task Forceline in Iraq, was just published
by the United States NavalInstitute Press, and it's
available from all your favoritebooksellers. We'll drop a link
in the show notes next week onat the boundary, we'll continue
(53:50):
to preview the upcoming genocidecampus summit five, which
focuses on technology andinnovation. Lessons learned from
the Ukraine, Russia conflict. Bythe way, registration is still
open for that, so reserve yourspot today. Our guest next week
will be Sam bendit, an adjunctSenior Fellow with the Center
for New American Security andsenior level advisor with the
(54:11):
CNA strategy, policy plans andProgram Center. Most
importantly, however, he is anhonorary mad scientist with the
Army's TRADOC mad scientistinitiative. Looking forward to
hearing more about that. Thanksfor listening today. You like
the podcast, please share withyour colleagues and network. You
can follow GNSI and yourLinkedIn next accounts at USF,
(54:32):
underscore GNSI, and check outour website as well, at
usf.edu/gnsi, where you can alsosubscribe to our monthly
newsletterthat's going to wrap up this
episode of at the boundary. Eachnew episode will feature global
and national security issues wefound to be insightful,
(54:54):
intriguing, fascinating, maybecontroversial, but over.
Overall, just worth talkingabout. I'm Jim Cardoso, and
we'll see you at the boundary.
Unknown (55:12):
You.
Jim, hello everyone. Welcome to another
(00:14):
episode of at the boundarypodcast from the global and
national security Institute theUniversity of South Florida. I'm
Jim Cardoso, Senior Director forgenocide, your host for at the
boundary.
First off, today, I want tothank all the speakers, guests
and attendees who spent timewith us last week at the St
(00:36):
Petersburg conference on worldaffairs. This year's conference
was titled the ties that bind usand focused on the theme of
allies and partners. As WinstonChurchill famously said, there's
only one thing worse thanfighting with allies, and that
is fighting without them. We'veenjoyed uniting again with the
St Petersburg conference onworld affairs as we explored
(00:58):
alliances and partnershipsacross every region of the
world. If you are unable toattend, the videos will soon be
available on the conferencewebsite, World Affairs
conference.org keep an eye outfor those in the coming weeks.
Speaking of videos, check outthe latest video we dropped on
our YouTube channel, a deep diveinto North Korea's nuclear
(01:19):
ambitions, their escalatingrelations with Russia, and
whether or not the dream of aunified Korean peninsula is even
in the realm of possibility.
GNSI, Senior Research Fellow, DrRob Burrell, spoke with special
guest David Maxwell, vicepresident of the Center for Asia
Pacific strategy. We'll drop alink in our show notes. Finally,
a quick reminder that theapplication window is still open
(01:41):
for USF students to apply toattend the International
Security and IntelligenceProgram at Cambridge University
this summer. GNSI is sending onestudent to the program, and if
you'd like to be that student,or know someone who might go to
our website for more info andthe application, we'll also drop
a link to apply in our shownotes on today's episode, we'll
(02:01):
be talking with Colonel SethFolsom, who retired from the US
Marine Corps in 2022 after 28years of service. He's just
written a new book about hisexperiences during the latter
stages of the war in Iraqentitled nothing here worth
dying for, Task Force lion inIraq, published by the United
States Naval Institute Press.
(02:22):
The book goes into freneticdetails of some of folsoms
command of Task Force lion, theculmination of nearly three
decades in uniform, whichincluded multiple deployments to
Iraq and Afghanistan. This isactually his fourth book, all of
which focus on a particularaspect of the wars in these two
countries. Our ExecutiveDirector here at GNSI, retired
Marine Corps General FrankMcKenzie wrote a review which
(02:44):
states his articulate andinsightful book adds to the
considerable literature aboutMarines and small unit actions.
This is a book all Marinesshould read. Seth, great to have
you on the program. Thanks, Jim.
It's really great to be here. Iappreciate it. So we'll dive
into the book in a bit. Butbefore doing that, besides
writing books and gettingpublished, what have you been up
to since you retired from theMarine Corps?
Seth Folsom (03:07):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I talked to a
lot of people before theyretired, and before or after
they retired and before Iretired. And you know, some of
the advice that I got fromfriends and mentors was, don't
go right back into work afteryou retire. Take time off.
(03:27):
Figure out what you want to dowith your life. You know you've
earned that time off. And so Itook the uniform off in August
of 22 after I retired from outof command from headquarters
battalion in First MarineDivision. And I planned exactly
that. I planned, you know, fiveor six months of almost a
sabbatical, and that lasted justa couple of months before I was
(03:50):
really climbing the walls. Youknow, one thing, one thing for
sure, that I knew was I was Iwas done being a Marine, and I
was ready to take the uniformoff, but I still missed working
with the Marines and working,you know, to support the
mission, because we're at acritical point in our history
(04:12):
right now, and so I found my wayinto a job supporting one Marine
Expeditionary Force, one methout here at Camp Pendleton,
California, and I support themwith a lot of some operational,
sometimes some strategicplanning and conveying, you
know, some of my experience as aas a Marine, as a colonel, as an
(04:35):
infantry Officer and and helpingthem, you know, get it done in
these kind of uncertain daysahead.
Jim Cardoso (04:46):
Yeah, you know, I was the same way. I heard this.
I got the same exact advice,sought to do the same thing. And
I think, I think I made it abouta month after I retired that I
was on with a company, again, acompany that was. That was
doing, actually, as a companythat did modeling and simulation
here in Tampa, one to stay inTampa, but, but, yeah, it's,
(05:06):
it's funny, and I think thatprobably our respective spouses
would probably prefer not tohave us. They love us, but maybe
not have us hanging around thehouse too much either 100% so,
and, you know, and actually, youtalked about, in my sense, too,
when you with that answer youjust gave, it's, you know,
(05:27):
you're ready to leave theservice, but the people you
worked with and what the servicestands for is still something
that's in, it's, it's encodingin you almost. And, you know,
we'll talk more about that. Ithink your book really, really
talks a lot about that too.
Seth Folsom (05:43):
Yeah, I mean, that's true. It's, you know,
I've used the term indoctrinatedand institutionalized before,
and that's true too. And like Isaid, I was, I was absolutely, I
was ready to hang it up and atleast hang the uniform up. But I
still had, and still have adesire to serve, and I feel like
(06:06):
what I'm doing now with theMarines, there's still a
component of or an element ofservice to it, and I'm just
doing it in a differentcapacity. And what, what I
really enjoy about what I do nowis I'm largely doing it on my
own terms, which is different.
Is much different than you know,when you are in uniform and
(06:29):
you're beholden to the service,you're beholden to the culture
and all the internal andexternal pressures that come
with the job, especially as asenior officer. Yeah,
Jim Cardoso (06:43):
yeah. The company I went to was had a lot of former
military, retired military folksin it, so it was a good it was a
good environment to be in andand the people there were, they
were thinking along the lines ofhow to help the warfighter. I
mean, it's a for profitbusiness, and that's part of it,
too, obviously, but, but whenthe people you work with still
have the same kind of mindsettowards service, towards helping
and doing things to help the warfader, it's a it's a good place
(07:06):
to fall into, and it continues,kind of a sense of of service as
you move forward to the next,the next phase of life.
Seth Folsom (07:15):
Yeah, completely.
And I think I'm, you know, Ithink I'm in that next phase of
my life, and my wife and I talkabout this regularly. I don't
think like I don't think thatI'm a workaholic, but I do enjoy
the work, and I do enjoy havingthat sense of purpose that
people have talked about before.
(07:36):
Of you know, getting up in themorning, doing your routine and
going and doing somethingmeaningful, as opposed to just
sitting around and wasting away.
I am. I'm not at a point in mylife where I'm ready to just,
you know, sit on the porch anddrink beer all day and think
about all the great things thatyou know that happened in the
past. I like to think that, youknow, like some of the best
(07:59):
years of my life and with myfamily. You know that those are
still ahead? Yeah,
Jim Cardoso (08:06):
the sitting on the porch and beer drinking days are
out there, but not quite yet.
Yeah, totally. So speaking ofnot wasting time, I mean, so you
just finished this book,actually, at the time we
published this podcast that'sgoing to be coming out, I think
the next day, basically, sopeople will be able to go on,
you know, the US, NavalInstitute, press, or even
(08:26):
Amazon, or whatever, to get it.
What? Why'd you write the book?
I mean, what overall messagesDid you want readers to take
away from it?
Seth Folsom (08:38):
Well, you know, first and foremost, the reason
that I wrote the book was aboutthe Marines and the sailors and
all the other service membersthat were part of the task force
Alliance team that they theexperience that I had with them
was so pivotal in my you know,ongoing education as a Marine
(09:01):
and as an officer and commander,and I just, I felt like I had to
tell their story, and which, youknow, it's not really a
surprise, because the otherthings I've written, they have
been centered around the peoplethat I've worked with in Iraq
and Afghanistan. Because, youknow, at the end of the day, no
(09:21):
matter you know what we talkabout with lethality and all
domain operations and blah,blah, blah, at the end of the
day, what we do is a peoplebusiness. It's a people business
that's centered around teams andteams of teams, and we can't do
what we're expected to do in theservice of the nation without
(09:43):
these teams to absorb themission and get after it and to
accomplish it and doing, youknow, really, whatever it takes.
And the team that I had withTask Force Alliance was one of,
if not the best team that Iever. Worked with, and I was
just, I knew every day that Iwas blessed to have them with
(10:06):
me, and we had each othersmacks, and I felt like I just
had to tell that story. Theother story that I really felt
like I had to tell was was, youknow, one slice of the story
that goes with OperationInherent Resolve and the defeat
ISIS campaign, and inparticular, the story of Task
(10:28):
Force alliance is one that noone knows about. You know when I
was in Afghanistan in 2011 with,with the battalion that I was
the CEO for third battalion,seven Marines. Three seven had a
history, a great history.
Everybody knew about threeseven. Everybody knew what was
going on in Afghanistan. Down atthe battalion level, there was a
(10:51):
lot of attention within theMarine Corps on what the
battalions were doing. The samewith my experience with Delta
company in the Iraq invasion in2003 the entire world was
watching that everybody knewabout it. But what task force
Alliance was doing in Iraq in2017 I found out really early on
(11:14):
that no one knew what's goingon. Very few people knew about
what these advises and enabledtask forces were doing. The
focus, you know, in the mediaand things that people were
writing about. Well, there was alot of focus on what was
happening in Mosul with thefight there, there was a lot of
(11:36):
focus on strikes that werehappening in the campaign in
Syria, primarily with SOF, butthere was, there was nothing
about what these small, diverseadvise and assist task forces
were doing, and because of what,you know, what the team
accomplished there. I just feltlike I had to tell that story. I
(11:58):
had to let everybody know thatthere was this small group of
men and women who were puttogether, you know, in just a
matter of months, and went outand accomplished a an
extraordinary mission inextraordinary circumstances when
not a lot of people thought thatthey could do it.
Jim Cardoso (12:18):
Yeah, I like the way that you really focused,
especially up front, on the onthe individual members of the
team, and kind of showing the, Iwould say, the eclectic nature
of the team. I mean, you had alldifferent folks coming from all
different walks of life,different career fields, whether
in the Marine Corps the Navy,very different personalities.
(12:40):
Some, some were kind of laidback, laconic. Some were very
fired up and intense. You know,I think, I think people
sometimes who are not familiarwith the military get a get a
general sense of, oh, this iswhat all military folks are
like, and it's not the case atall. You know, your team is, was
extremely diverse, extremelycapable, too. But I think it
(13:01):
lent a humanity to the overallstory that was told in that,
okay, these are real people withreal, you know, attributes,
whether admirable attributes,some are kind of annoying
attributes. I mean, they're realhuman beings that were all out
to execute this mission. Andthen, I think, then watching
things move forward from there.
It really, it really gave thestory a level of just a level of
(13:25):
depth. That was that, as areader, I appreciated even
envisioning what, what timesthat you didn't describe in the
book were like, What were downtimes like I could almost
envision, well, I see, I feellike I know this guy, I feel
like I know this girl right now,and I can see how they may have
gotten along or maybe didn't getalong at some times in a very
intense combat environment.
Seth Folsom (13:47):
Yeah, you know that, and that was the challenge
from the get go. How was, youknow, how the team was formed?
You know, so often, most unitsthat deployed, circumstances
like that, they deploy asgenerally cohesive units that
have their own culture, climateand identity. And the the team
(14:09):
that that was brought togetherhere in Southern California, it
was a team that was 100% made ofindividual augments. And you
know what, I'm what I'veperiodically reminded people and
I now finally look back on wasthe fact that the team that we
formed here in Camp Pendletonwas composed of 85 Marines and
(14:34):
Sailors from 35 differentcommands across the southwestern
United States that at CampPendleton, 29 palms Miramar down
in Yuma, Arizona. Those Marinesall converged here at Camp
Pendleton to form the core ofour Task Force headquarters. And
they they were all incrediblytalented. And as you said, it
(14:55):
was a diverse group of multiplespecialties, multiple.
Backgrounds and but what theteam lacked was it lacked a
unifying identity. In a lot ofcases, if a marine or any
service member gets assigned asan individual Augment, many
times, they report to anexisting headquarters and
(15:16):
they're just a, you know, fillin the blank Staff Officer or
what have you. In this case, itwas an entire team of individual
augments, and we had no identityto fall in on. And so we had to
create our own identity and and,you know, for better or for
worse, that fell to me to definewhat that identity was going to
(15:39):
be for the team. And but theonly way we could do that was
for me to ensure that that theyunderstood from the from the
outset, this is what our missionis. This is what we're going in
to do. This is what we have tobe prepared to do. And we only
have a couple of months to getready to go. And so, you know, I
(16:00):
spent a lot of time in thebeginning, really trying to
absorb the details of the peoplethat were in the team. And like
you said, it was an eclecticgroup, incredibly diverse and
and, you know, despite all ofthe buzz that's going on right
now about the evils ofdiversity, one of the things
(16:21):
that I learned over over timewas the diversity of Task Force
Alliance headquarters was whatmade it so strong. It was the
different backgrounds, thedifferent perspectives, the
different experiences that allthese men and women had. And
then when we actually got incountry and we began partnering
up, not only with our Iraqipartners, but also with our
(16:44):
coalition partners such as theDanes, the Norwegians, the
French, the Brits, that thatdifferent group of people coming
together, it forced us toexamine the problem set from
multiple angles, as opposed togoing in with, you know, one
common mindset that's there washigh bound and unable to, you
(17:09):
know, to change on the fly, sothat this diverse team that I
had, like I said, I spent a lotof time absorbing who they were
and where they'd come from. And,and, you know, occasionally I
had to kind of sit back andlaugh at some of the things that
these people had done. I mean,we had on the team, you know, my
(17:31):
my deputy was a staff judgeadvocate who'd come from the
Marine logistics group. And youlook at this guy, and he had
like, he looked like Don Draperfrom Mad Men. And he had, he had
this background where he had,you know, he had tutored people
in English when he lived inJapan. He lived over in France.
(17:51):
He spoke, spoke multiplelanguages. And he was, like to
say he was a, he was an eclecticcharacters that, like the
understatement of the year. Youknow, we had people like my
operations officer, who was a,was a very, you know, tight
lipped, very serious minded guy,just in general, he just didn't
(18:12):
like to talk. When he did talk,he knew he was he meant
business, but he had a very drysense of humor. And, you know,
you know, you almost had to pullinformation out of him until he
got excited about something.
But, you know, also on the team,I mean, we had like, we had an
amateur rodeo rider. We had awoman who was a fitness
instructor. We had a couple ofamateur bodybuilders on the
(18:33):
team. We had a Marine who hadmultiple degrees. Had worked in
the government before and workedin the private sector. I mean,
the list goes on and on, andeach one of these individuals
brought their unique talents andbackgrounds to the team, and
that that just made us astronger group altogether, once
(18:54):
we figured out what thatidentity was, and once we, you
know, bumped up against eachother a couple of times in the
beginning, figuring out who waswho in the zoo.
Jim Cardoso (19:06):
Yeah, let's, let's pull that thread a little bit,
because, you know, yours is a,it's a, it's a, it's a combat
zone, war time story. But youknow, some of the, I would say,
the team dynamics and themanagement lessons and practices
that you adhere to and your teamadhere to, there's, I would say
(19:29):
there's applicability to thebusiness sector, to other areas
that are just working in thesame area of a of a diverse,
unique team, maybe a new team,maybe small team dynamics, and
just trying to get everybody onthe same sheet of music towards
whatever you're in this case,you know a combat mission. In
(19:50):
other cases, you know some typeof objective or goal that a
business unit may have. I mean,can you, can you draw any, I
guess, lessons from your time?
There that, that you can see,that would which you learn from,
from your experience, Yeah,
Seth Folsom (20:06):
completely. You know, one of the things that I
realized early on, and I mean, Ithink I really learned this when
in a previous assignment, when Iwas on the joint staff, but, but
I internalized it when I waswith this particular team, and
that's the idea that justbecause you are the senior
(20:26):
person in the room and you're incharge doesn't mean you have all
the answers. It doesn't meanthat you're all that you're
always right. And theenvironment that evolved over
time, I don't even know that Ihad anything directly to do with
it, but the environment thatevolved over time was we created
(20:46):
a space where everybody's voicewas heard, everybody had the
opportunity to weigh in. And Ithink, I think it evolved that
way because the mission demandedit. You know, we had, we had
weekly future operations arecalled fops, weekly fops sync
meetings in my office each week.
And you know, it started out asit was a it was a session every
(21:10):
week where the future ops teamwould brief different things
that were coming up and wouldseek guidance from me and seek
decisions. And it became, itbecame a very collegial format,
where everybody was chiming in,you know, multiple times and
having discussion, which I have,I have rarely seen before, done
(21:35):
in front of a commander, wherethere is, there's this back and
forth, and these, theseinteractions where people are
actively disagreeing with eachother or or bringing up a point
that hadn't been pre briefed.
And you know it, I guess it'ssomething that could have
devolved into chaos, but itinstead, it's synchronized
(21:58):
everybody. And like I said, thatthat element of everybody having
a seat at the table andeverybody having a voice in the
conversation, that it enabled,it enabled them to fully inform
me for the decisions that I hadto make as we went forward each
week. And I think there was alsoa, there was a social component
to it as well, because, again,these meetings started out very
(22:21):
formal with everybody around,you know, a briefing table in my
office. And over time theywould, the meeting swelled to
almost standing room only in myoffice at Al Asad and Marines
would, would stake out spots onthe couch. You know, many
minutes in advance, did bring ina book to read while they were
(22:42):
waiting, because everybodywanted to be involved in this
interaction that the team washaving. And it wasn't again, it
wasn't just the senior membersof the team, it wasn't just me
and the majors who were on mystaff. It was them. It was their
deputies, it was their chiefs.
Others would pop in just to seewhat was going on. And in the
end, it was something that I wasproud of, because we were, we
(23:06):
were accomplishing somethingeach week, and at the same time,
everybody was interacting asfriends, colleagues and really
just humans, yeah,
Jim Cardoso (23:15):
and they're and they're bought into the solution
as well. Look, you're thecommander, you're going to make
the decision, and they allunderstand that. But I mean,
just from what I've heard, whatI read, I'll give you, I mean,
I'll give you credit forcreating an environment,
creating space that they canhave that conversation. Some,
you know, different commandersare different, and some don't
want to have that, that kind ofopen back and forth. They just
(23:36):
want to, you know, hear some ofthe facts, make a decision, move
on. And you, you know, you setup a an environment such that
there could be just kind of anopen discussion. You, you
allowed the time to do that, andthen when the decision was made,
at least everybody in the roomcould say, well, my point was
heard. Okay, maybe my point ofview wasn't the one that was
taken for the decision, but atleast I know I got my point out
(23:58):
and over. And I think over time,you probably created an
environment that, you know,sometimes Person A would get
their point in, and that's wherethe decision will lie along
those lines. And then thefollowing week, person B would
get their point and that'd bealong the lines of decision. And
Person A was kind of like, okay,I mean, that's all right. I
mean, it's all good. We had agood discussion about it. So,
you know, there are lessons, Ithink, for just in any general
(24:21):
management sort of situation tounderstand, I mean, leverage the
talent you have and allow it toallow it to flourish under you,
create the environment by whichit can, it can do so,
Seth Folsom (24:34):
yeah, and you know that that back and forth also
supported, you know, mydirection to the team, which
was, look, I want to heareverything that everybody has to
say, and we need to discuss andargue these points. And when
it's time for me to make mydecision, and I make that
decision, everybody needs to geton board with it and walk out of
(24:55):
the room arms length and on thesame page of music. And so I
think that. Forum, and that thatenvironment is what was, what
enabled that, that unifiedmessage every time everybody
left the room, yeah,
Jim Cardoso (25:09):
you know, one thing I liked about your book, you
know, as you go through thebook, there's obviously in a
combat environment, there's alot of strong personalities,
there's a lot of differences ofnot just in your team, but
across teams with all thedifferent partners, you are
working with a lot of strongpersonalities, most of which
thought they were right in anyparticular discussion, and you
(25:30):
did not, for lack better term,you did not identify villains.
There's no villains. Well, yeah,there was a clear villain, okay?
I mean, there's one playerbuilding that everybody was
fighting against, but as far asthe US forces and our partner,
nation, allies, you know, itcould have been so easy to do
(25:52):
so, and I think you did a reallygood job of spelling out Some of
the differences of opinion, butalso understanding that
everybody comes or somethingwith just that's their point of
view and, and they have probablysome pretty good reason to back
up their point of view.
Everybody's got a higher boss toanswer to. Everybody's a higher
mission to answer to, and, andso there was, it was a very
(26:15):
realistic presentation of howthese types of interactions
happen down range, that when alleverybody's there trying to do
the right thing for the rightreasons, just have differences
of opinion how to get there.
Seth Folsom (26:29):
Yeah, it's, it's like we, you know, I think I
mentioned the story. You know,my battalion commander from 20
plus years ago was, was fond ofsaying that, you know, most
people don't wake up on Mondaymornings and say, You know what,
I'm going to screw it up thisweek. Everybody is doing their
best. Did he say?
Jim Cardoso (26:47):
Everybody really say screw it up? Or did he say
something else? Maybe
Seth Folsom (26:51):
he may have said something else. I'll try to keep
I'll try to keep it clean. Iappreciate
Jim Cardoso (26:58):
that. But, yeah, but you know,
Seth Folsom (27:00):
I mean, the guy was right, and I recognized that
over the years. And in Iraq in2017 It was no different. Like
you said, the different thedifferent entities that we
worked with, whether they werecoalition units like the
Norwegians or the Brits or theDanes or the soft units we
looked worked alongside, or evensome of the other marine units
(27:24):
that were in theater as well.
Everybody had a particularmission that someone told them
to get after. Everybody workedfor somebody else. You know,
everybody else works forsomebody else, that that's,
that's the way it always is. Andyou know, I had, I had my
mandate that the the commanderat more scent gave me before we
(27:45):
went in theater. I had anadditional mandate that the the
CJ flick commander in Iraq, whoI was under tactical control of,
I had the mandate that he gaveme. I also had, there was also,
you know, specific guidance ordirection that was given to me
by my my parent unit here at onemeth. And so I was, I was
(28:08):
balancing all of those differentmandates and requirements and
different masters that I served,and I know that the other
entities that we worked with,were doing the same thing. Just
Just as there was a lot ofpressure on me and my team to
accomplish the mission set thatthat had been assigned to us,
(28:28):
there was a lot of pressure onthose other teams as well. And
so I tried to keep that in mind,when I had interactions with
them, or when, when we bumped upagainst each other. Sometimes it
was easier than others to dealwith, but at the end of the day,
I did, you know, that wassomething that I realized was
everybody's fighting the fight.
(28:52):
Everybody is on the same teamhere. We're all unified on the
same mission. We just have tofigure out how to make it work.
You know time now,
Jim Cardoso (29:03):
you know you relate in the book, and I don't know
how deeply you want to get intothis, but a particular challenge
with that, in one case adifference of opinion with
someone who's a friend of yours,who you'd known for a long time
in the Marine Corps. And youknow, I was in the Air Force 30
years, so I was kind ofenvisioning what this type of
person may have looked like tome, who I know that long and
(29:24):
admired and trusted and worked alot with, and, and it was, I
guess it was just verychallenging because you were on
different sides of a particularissue, again, both with your
marching orders, both with asense of the right way To do
things. And and you talk abouthow difficult it was to navigate
that, would you mind, kind of,not to give the book away and
(29:46):
not to but as comfortable as youare, mind talking about that a
bit?
Seth Folsom (29:51):
Yeah, you know that what you're talking about was it
was one of the greatestprofessional challenges, I
think, that I faced. And in myentire career, and that was, how
do you have a significantprofessional disagreement with
somebody who was a close friend?
In this case that you know thatclose friend was the the
(30:12):
commander of the Special PurposeMagda that was, that was based
down in Kuwait, and we had a, wehad, we had a difference of
opinion, and that opinion waswho was going to lead the big
operation with the Rockies toclear Western Al Anbar, my
position was, was very clear. Itbecause it was, it was the
(30:34):
mission that was assigned to me.
The CJ flick commander had toldme, within a week of my arrival
at Al Assad Task Force, yourtask force is going to partner
with the Iraqis, and you'regoing to take them all the way
to the Iraqi to the Iraqi borderwith Syria. You're going to move
with them, and you're going toget them out of their comfort
(30:56):
zone, and we're going to finishthis thing off. My my colleague
with the special purpose magtaf,he did. He didn't have the same
direct guidance on what thatmission was, but he had a he had
an extreme he was the commanderof an extremely capable unit
that had, to certain degree,many more different capabilities
(31:19):
than my own task force had, andhe believed that his unit was
best postured to take on thismission with the Iraqis and
clear out to the border withSyria. And so we eventually, we
just, we had to disagree. We hadto agree to disagree. And it, it
put a significant strain on ourfriendship. And you know, to be,
(31:42):
to be honest, I wasn't entirelysure that our friendship would
survive the deployment, becauseI knew what I had to do. He knew
what he had to do, and we justcouldn't, we couldn't connect
the dots, you know, and so, andit really, it was something that
really troubled me. It would beone thing if I was having that
(32:02):
conversation with someone that Ididn't care about and someone
that I hadn't deployed with inthe past, and, you know, drank
beers with and knew his familyand he knew mine, but that
wasn't the case. You know, wehad a history. And you know,
when you've got two people whoare strong personalities, who
(32:23):
are both type A and bothbelieve, you know, believe in
something, and you get crossthreaded. It's, it's hard, and,
you know, I think in the end, wemade it work. And I think our
friendship, in the end, beactually became stronger for it.
But I think if, you know, ifsomeone talked to him, he would
(32:43):
probably say something similar,which is, you know, it was, it
was it was it was tough. It wastough on the friendship, and it
was a tough time to be incommand,
Jim Cardoso (32:53):
yeah. But the friendship survived, though you
say, and to this day, yeah,
Seth Folsom (32:57):
yep, yep. And, like I said, I felt like, in the end,
you know, the friendship was wasstronger, but, you know, it
comes at a cost.
Jim Cardoso (33:07):
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think you see that
in thinking sometimes you want,you'll see movies of two people,
two senior leaders, who arefriends, and, you know,
throughout life, and then theyhave this disagreement, and the
movies just kind of, they haveit, and then they just move on,
and everything's fine. And inthe real world, you know,
(33:27):
there's, it's not the same, it'smore challenging, and there's
lingering feelings andlingering, you know, just how do
I deal with this going forward?
I can imagine that, would Iagain, I'm just putting myself
in your shoes, and I wasn't inyour position, but I can imagine
something would weigh on you fora while. Yeah, yeah. And
Seth Folsom (33:46):
you know what? I'll tell you one of the, one of the
significant frustrations that Ihad in this particular scenario
that we're talking about. Iwon't speak for for my friend,
but I'll tell you that that frommy perspective, it was, it was
really frustrating because, youknow, the service and our
(34:07):
respective chains of command,they knew this was going on.
They knew that there was this,you know, call it a competition
to execute the mission and andover time it really it was. What
was challenging was we bothagreed that as as colonels and
(34:28):
as commanders, we should be ableto work it out ourselves. But
the way things were operating inIraq and in CENTCOM at the time
and with the service we I just,I don't think that we were
empowered to make a lot of thosedecisions together. And in the
end, you know, from myperspective, it really felt like
(34:50):
the service and thecircumstances were were in this
this case, were pitting twocommanders against each other
when. You know, we shouldactually be cooperating and
supporting each other now again,you know, then that's not an
attempt to shift blame outward.
Is at the end of the day, I wasresponsible, you know, for the
things I did and the things thatI said and the decisions that I
(35:13):
made. But it felt like there wasnot the, you know, it felt like
there was not the degree of orthe, rather, the spirit of
cooperation that I had grown upwith in the Marine Corps. Yeah,
Jim Cardoso (35:33):
well, I mean, and I think we talk spoke of this
offline, sometimes there is acompetition, a bit of a
competition when you're downrange, when you've look you've
trained your whole life to gointo combat and execute the
mission and lead troops incombat when the time comes to do
so you want to do it. And Imean, there's, there's a little
bit of, I can seecompetitiveness sneaking in as
well, that he felt he was thebest suited for the mission, and
(35:55):
he wanted to, he wanted to leadhis troops into that. I can see
how that would happen. And thenI can also see how the service
writ large would kind of go andjust, just let them work it out.
It's, you know, the one step upfor you is probably not going to
get involved. Yeah, exactly. Youtalk about that. It was you were
tasked to go with your theIraqis, your partners, all the
(36:17):
way the Syria border. So let,let's talk about that, whole
concept of that, that thatadvisor mission that you had
there, and which you've you,which you've done before, it is
a unique mission that themilitary does undertake, and you
had some opportunities to do it.
You you know you spoke offlineabout the just the challenge,
but the honor and the privilegeand just the worthwhileness, if
(36:41):
that's even a word of thatadvisor mission. Talk a little
bit about that, please.
Seth Folsom (36:50):
Yeah, the, you know, the the advisor mission
that I did in 2017 with theIraqis was so wildly different
than the experience that I hadat a smaller level in 2008 as an
advisor. You know, interestinglyenough, both both tours I was
(37:10):
advising the same unit, Missseventh Iraqi Army Division. But
the circumstances and the, youknow, the situation in 2008 was
so wildly different than it wasin 2000 than it was in 2017 and
in 2008 you know, I was focusedat the battalion level. There
was, there was not a significantenemy situation or threat in the
(37:36):
area that we were in, and theadvising component of it really
was mostly a lot of one on onewith the Iraqis and helping them
get spare parts and get fuel andand feed and water their troops
and things like that, and andhelping them broker their, You
(37:58):
know, their intramuraldisagreements with the Iraqi
police. It just there was not awhole lot to it. Not that it
was, it's, I'm not saying thatit was unfulfilling, but when I
then flash forward to 2017 themission had grown so much. I was
no longer working at thebattalion level. We were now
(38:21):
working at the core level withthe Iraqi command that was
called the Jazeera operationscommand. You know, working with
the two star general costum, whowas the commander of the J OC,
and from from the advisingpiece, what we needed to do to
support the Iraqis was was somuch more complicated than what
(38:44):
we needed to do in 2008 it wasno longer just helping them get
spare parts and fuel andammunition. It was about getting
them the enabling capabilitiesthat they needed to prosecute
the fight against ISIS. And thatwas really, you know, the
evolution of Task ForceAlliance. It began as a 26
member advisor team that wasmodeled off of the old division
(39:07):
transition teams from from the2008 time frame, and very
quickly into the campaign, thecoalition realized that that
just wasn't enough. The Advisingcomponent, that's the Rockies
needed more than that. Theyneeded fire support. They needed
intelligence support. Theyneeded heavy logistical support.
(39:29):
And so the the advisor taskforces into that by 2017 had
beefed up to the size that theywere when, when I arrived in the
summer of 2017 and so it was, itwas no longer a focused effort
in a small piece of area. It wasnow, you know, again, operating
at the core level with theentirety of Western Al Anbar
(39:51):
Province, stretching from AlAssad all the way to Syrian
border. So very differentscenarios and very different
you. Heavy requirements betweenthe two tours in 2008 and 2017
but what, what remained the samewas that that element of
advising the, you know, therelationship building with the
(40:13):
Iraqis, the the daily, sometimeshourly, back and forth with
them, you know, helping themdevelop their plans,
encouraging, encouraging them toto get outside of their comfort
zone, to get away from Al Assadand move farther and farther
forward on the battlefield. Andso those, those advisor
elements, I think, are, they'reuniversal, and it requires, it
(40:38):
requires a unique set of skills,as Liam Neeson would say, to be
able to execute it successfully,you know. And something,
something that I learned orheard right before I became an
advisor in 2008 Marine Generalwas giving a after action brief.
(40:59):
He just come from advising duty,and he said, cultural training
is important for you to becomean advisor. But cultural
training is not the only thingthat's going to lead to your
success. And ultimately, what hesaid, and I'll clean it up, was
he said, if you're a jerk in theUnited States, you're going to
(41:22):
be a jerk anywhere else.
Jim Cardoso (41:25):
I've heard that before, and I think I know the
proper terminology too. Yeah,
Seth Folsom (41:29):
so you know, and that's, that's the thing, is
that being an advisor, it'sfunny, because, you know, you
like, in our case, we're tryingto get the Iraqis to get outside
of their comfort zone. But beingan advisor requires you to get
out of your comfort zone. Itrequires everything from molding
your schedule to their scheduleto putting yourselves in
(41:49):
positions where you may not beentirely comfortable with. It
involves a level of personalinteraction that some people
aren't comfortable with I cantell you that in my case, you
know, believe it or not, I'mactually, I'm actually an
introverted person. You know, Ilike the company of people that
(42:12):
I know and trust, but if I don'tknow someone, well, you know,
being in large groups and beingaround people I don't know, it
exhausts me. And so, you know,in my case, I had to really dig
deep to to, you know, injectmyself into situations where I
really otherwise, you know,would not be comfortable or
(42:34):
would be happy if I didn't haveto do it. But the mission
required it. And so that thatinteraction between the advisors
and the Iraqis, it, you know,it's a campaign in and of
itself, to gain that trust witheach other and build that
relationship. Because at the endof the day, you know, you know,
(42:56):
talked to, talked before, abouthow what we do is the people
business, and it's also abusiness of trust. And the
Rockies are no different thanus. You know, if they don't know
you, if they don't trust you,they're not going to work with
you. And so in our particularcircumstances, in the summer of
2017 we learned immediately, youknow, almost upon, almost from
(43:19):
the moment that we landed therethat we were going to be working
with the Iraqis, and we weregoing to go with them all the
way to the border. And so we hadto accelerate that relationship
building with them, so that theyknew who we were and who they
trust, and that they could trustus and where we were fortunate
in that regard. Was going backto the team piece that we were
(43:41):
talking about, almost all of mysenior officers on the team and
senior staff and CEOs hadexperience in Western alambar
from the early days of the IraqWar. So for me to be able to
tell my Iraqi partner my ops sowas in Al crime. And who say,
but my intelligence officer wasin Al Khan, my sergeant major
(44:05):
was in Al Khan. You know, I wasin Al 2008 you know, she was all
over the province, you know,operating that that that helped
establish that trust, thathelped helped him understand
that, you know, this is not ateam. It's not a JV team who
doesn't know what they're doing.
They've been here before. Theyunderstand the terrain, they
(44:25):
understand the operatingenvironment.
Jim Cardoso (44:29):
Yeah, the, you know, we're starting to this has
been a great conversation, and,like, actually been at it for a
while. So I do want to startwrapping up. But one of the
thing I want to kind of come outof this book for a bit for one,
one question, and just you'vewritten four books, and all of
them, I believe, all of them,about your your experiences in
Iraq and Afghanistan over theyears, as you've been you know,
(44:51):
from you know, different levelsof command, different levels of
authority. What do you think haswhat. Do you think has changed
in terms of your approach towriting these books? I mean, I
imagine, as an author, you'veevolved how you present look,
the circumstances change.
Obviously we know that. But alsoyou change as it when you went
(45:14):
from being a captain to acolonel, that changes things in
your perspective, yourperspective as well. Can you
kind of, I don't know, maybetalk me through a little bit of
how maybe you evolved and howyou approached these writings
books, how you approachedpresenting this, this, this
story, to an interested reader.
Seth Folsom (45:32):
Yeah, you know, I don't know that. I have an easy
answer to it. What I can tellyou is, you know, all these,
these stories that I've written,they've all been based on
journals that I've kept whileI've been deployed. Every time
I've deployed, I've kept apersonal journal to help me
(45:53):
capture what was going on sothat I could remember it. And
you know, because, I mean, Ieven from that first deployment
to Iraq, I remember sittingthere at certain times thinking,
if I don't capture this rightnow, I'm not going to remember
the details that I need to orthat someone needs to, you know,
(46:15):
years from now and so, you know,keeping a journal when I was
overseas was never, was never avehicle so that I could write a
future book. I've always beenvery mindful of that. People
have asked me before, you know,are you keeping a journal so you
can write a book? I had to make.
I had to make very consciousdecisions each time I deployed
(46:36):
and kept a journal that I'm notdoing this to write a book,
because that would, that wouldcolor every decision that I
made, you know, thinking, Well,how would this look if, you
know, ends up in a book one day?
So I had to, I had to do like amind split, and not even, not
(46:58):
even consider the things thatI'd written, or the things that
I might one day write. But ineach case, you know, in that
cooling down period after youget back from a deployment, I
would pull out those, thosejournals that I'd written, and I
would look through them. Andagain, in each case, there was a
story, and that story wassomething that had to be told.
(47:20):
It was the story about, youknow, what men and women do,
what ordinary men and women dounder extraordinary
circumstances. And it's, youknow, at the risk of sounding
sappy, the the stories, thebooks that I've written, they
are their love letters to themen and women that I've served
(47:41):
with, and I but I can't, becausethe stories are told from my
perspective. I just I never hadthe time or the depth of
knowledge or the understandingto write the story in the third
person about everybody. Thestories had to be told from my
perspective. And each time Iknew that with that I couldn't
(48:05):
just tell their story withouttelling my own, and I couldn't
tell my own story without notonly talking about the the
successes that I had, but justas important, the failures that
I had. You know failures. Youknow of leadership. You know,
bad decisions, mistakes. Youknow, that's the story wouldn't
(48:26):
be complete without that. Soeach, each story that I've
written has actually taken melonger and longer to write, you
know, and that was, I think thatwas a function, not only of of
my match duration as a Marineand as an officer and Commander,
but it was also a function ofthe life that I was living with
(48:47):
my family when I when I returnedin in 2003 from Iraq and started
thinking about putting togethera book, I had a lot of free time
on my hand. I mean, even thoughI was in graduate school at the
time, my wife and I were newlymarried, we had no children, and
I had a significant amount offree time that I could put this
(49:09):
thing together and edit it. Andyou know when the time for the
next book came along? Well, Ihad two small girls that were
going to join the family, andthen when, you know, the third
book came along, those thosegirls were getting older, and
then they had things going on intheir lives, and I wanted to be
a part of their life. And soeach book took me longer to
(49:31):
write from because I had morecommitments outside of time to
just sit down and compose mythoughts. And at the same time
each successive book that Iwrote, I think I put more into
it intellectually, to not onlytry to tell a better story, you
know, from just from areadability perspective, but
(49:53):
also to try to really bring outthis. So what you know when I go
when I look back on the. Firststory that I wrote, it's, you
know, it's very detailed, andit's almost like a day by day,
minute by minute, recounting ofwhat happened during the
invasion. And I suppose that'sgood from a from a history
(50:14):
perspective, but I don't knowthat I was always able to really
underscore the salient pointsthat needed to be made. There
are some salient points in thatstory, but I think they kind of
get lost in in, you know, in thesheer volume of words. So I each
(50:38):
book, I've spent more and moretime trying to figure out what
the story is already there. Whatdo I want people to learn from
it, and what am I learning fromit along the way? And what, but
what do I want people toremember it for? And so that's
ultimately why this, this mostrecent book, has taken so long
(50:59):
to to complete was I, you know,I knew this is going to be the
last thing that I write inuniform. This is going to be the
last, the last story I tellabout Marines that I've worked
with. This is going to be, youknow, my the last adventure that
I have in the Marine Corps. Whatdo people need to understand
about that story? And what dothey need to understand about
(51:23):
you know the character of modernwar. You know the the nature of
war. You know, you know the oldsaying that the nature of
warfare never changes, but thecharacter warfare is ever
evolving. Warfare, the characterof warfare has evolved to
something that people 20 yearsago, you know, wouldn't even
(51:43):
recognize it. And and with thatevolution of the character of
warfare, comes a set ofcircumstances and realities that
are are just as challenging, Ithink, as they were, you know,
in the in the horse drawn era.
Jim Cardoso (52:05):
Well, I'll tell you, it's a it's an eminently
readable book. It's ainteresting story. It moves
along. There's real characters.
There's real flesh and blood.
People in there, both the, youknow, your your team, and also
the partner nations, the Iraqis,they're fleshed out as
individuals as well, not justthis amorphous bunch and and I
(52:26):
would, I would encourage peoplethat are that are hearing us
today, to go out there and lookit up. I guess it's at the Naval
Institute Press, or probably onAmazon as well, on any place you
get your books Seth, any finalthoughts, any final comments
before we close out the podcast?
Well,
Seth Folsom (52:43):
you know, first and foremost, I appreciate you
having me on as always I am. I'malways eager to talk about the
men and women that I've workedwith, because I know that. You
know, I may have written thebook, but they provided the
story, and I'm just happy to getthat story out there to you
(53:04):
know, to tell the tale of this,this team of underdogs that a
lot of people thought wouldn'tbe able to get it done, but at
the end of the day, they gave apretty damn good showing of
themselves, and I was proud toserve with them. Proud to know
them, and just as important, I'mproud to tell their story. So
(53:24):
again, I thank you. Thank youfor having me on here
Jim Cardoso (53:27):
and appreciate your time. Seth, thanks for joining
us today. Thank you. Thanks toour special guest today, retired
Marine Corps Colonel SethFolsom, his fourth book, nothing
here worth dying for, Task Forceline in Iraq, was just published
by the United States NavalInstitute Press, and it's
available from all your favoritebooksellers. We'll drop a link
in the show notes next week onat the boundary, we'll continue
(53:50):
to preview the upcoming genocidecampus summit five, which
focuses on technology andinnovation. Lessons learned from
the Ukraine, Russia conflict. Bythe way, registration is still
open for that, so reserve yourspot today. Our guest next week
will be Sam bendit, an adjunctSenior Fellow with the Center
for New American Security andsenior level advisor with the
(54:11):
CNA strategy, policy plans andProgram Center. Most
importantly, however, he is anhonorary mad scientist with the
Army's TRADOC mad scientistinitiative. Looking forward to
hearing more about that. Thanksfor listening today. You like
the podcast, please share withyour colleagues and network. You
can follow GNSI and yourLinkedIn next accounts at USF,
(54:32):
underscore GNSI, and check outour website as well, at
usf.edu/gnsi, where you can alsosubscribe to our monthly
newsletterthat's going to wrap up this
episode of at the boundary. Eachnew episode will feature global
and national security issues wefound to be insightful,
(54:54):
intriguing, fascinating, maybecontroversial, but over.
Overall, just worth talkingabout. I'm Jim Cardoso, and
we'll see you at the boundary.
Unknown (55:12):
You.
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