February 10, 2025 • 45 mins
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Military recruitment and retention are at a critical crossroads. Almost 80% of young Americans ineligible for service without some sort of medical waiver, and new recruitment pools are beginning to shrink. This episode brings in two experts to examine the urgent need for policy reform, leadership stability, and military family support. Listen in to how they explore eligibility standards and comprehensive family support programs to assist in strengthening America’s armed forces.
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Links from the episode:
• GNSI's "The Russia-Ukraine War: Lessons for Future Conflicts" Summit
• Dr. Guido Rossi’s article about the military recruiting crisis
At the Boundary from the Global and National Security Institute at the University of South Florida, features global and national security issues we’ve found to be insightful, intriguing, fascinating, maybe controversial, but overall just worth talking about.
A "boundary" is a place, either literal or figurative, where two forces exist in close proximity to each other. Sometimes that boundary is in a state of harmony. More often than not, that boundary has a bit of chaos baked in. The Global and National Security Institute will live on the boundary of security policy and technology and that's where this podcast will focus.
The mission of GNSI is to provide actionable solutions to 21st-century security challenges for decision-makers at the local, state, national and global levels. We hope you enjoy At the Boundary.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim Cardoso (00:12):
hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode of atthe boundary podcast from the
global and national securityInstitute at the University of
South Florida. I'm Jim Cardoso,Senior Director for GNSI, and
your host for at the boundary.
On today's show, we're going tobe discussing military
(00:32):
recruitment and retention. Asretired officer who had the
honor of serving in the AirForce for 30 years, it's
disconcerting to realize thatthe organization I grew up in,
the Department of Defenseoverall, is having difficulties
finding people who want toexperience what I was privileged
to in serving our nation. Now,in a happy coincidence, this
(00:53):
episode has connected me againwith a former colleague, Dr
Alicia Rossiter. My last AirForce assignment was as
commander of the ROTC programhere at the University of South
Florida, we had several nursingstudents entering the Air Force
through ROTC who went throughAlicia's program, so we had
shared interest in theirsuccess. She's one of our guests
today. She'll be joined by ourown GNSI Research Fellow, Dr
(01:16):
Guido Rossi. His recent articleregarding the military
recruitment crisis caught theattention of Dr Rossiter, so it
seemed unnatural to bring themon to discuss this unique threat
to national security that gets alot of attention in places like
the Pentagon, but maybe not onMain Street America. I'm eager
to hear what guy and Alicia haveto say today, but a couple of
(01:37):
quick notes. First,we're less than a month away
from GNSI Tampa summit five,which tackles lessons the world
can take away from the ongoingwar in Ukraine,
emerging technologies andinnovative strategies such as
drone employment, InformationOperations, social media and
Battlefield medical treatmenthave featured prominently and
(01:59):
will impact how combatantsaround the world approach future
conflict. How can we expectthese lessons to be applied, and
how should US national policyaddress these changes? There's
no cost to attend, butregistration is required and the
seats are filling up. You cancheck out the full agenda and
list the speakers on ourwebsite. We'll drop a link in
the show notes as well. We alsopublished two new genocide
(02:22):
decision briefs last week. Thefirst tackles questions involved
with Congress designatingMexican cartels as terrorist
organizations. That's been ahotly debated topic in the first
weeks of the Trumpadministration. The second
decision brief is titled,keeping allies in the fight
Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq.
We'll drop links to both ofthese decision briefs in the
show notes. Okay, well, let'sget going with our guest, Dr guy
(02:45):
Rossi is a research fellow hereat GNSI who recently wrote an
article for real clear defensethat made some revelations about
the recruitment crisis currentlyplaguing all branches of the US
military. One of the mostsurprising notes in guy's
article is the fact that 77% ofyoung Americans between the ages
of 17 and 24 do not meet theminimum qualifications for
(03:08):
military service without awaiver of some sort. Dr Alicia
Rossiter is a retired US AirForce Lieutenant Colonel who's
now the Chief Officer ofMilitary and Veteran Affairs
College of Nursing at USFHealth, she's done inspirational
research on a related topic, howmilitary recruitment and
retention is impacted bycommunity care for and
(03:29):
resiliency of military families.
And as I mentioned, she's aformer colleague. I've enjoyed
reconnecting with guys in thestudio with us. Thanks for being
Dr. Guido Rossi (03:41):
here. Thank you for having me all right. And
Jim Cardoso (03:45):
Alicia, you're joining us virtually getting
over the flu last week. Welcometo the program.
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (03:50):
Thank you so much for having me as well.
Okay,
Jim Cardoso (03:53):
so we'll start in studio with you. Guy, your
recent article in real cleardefense was entitled restoring
military leadership to addressthe recruiting crisis. I know
this is your line of research,but what inspired you to publish
this article?
Dr. Guido Rossi (04:08):
Well, I have to admit that it stems a little bit
from personal experience,because I personally wanted to
join the US military, the USArmy, specifically, for many
years, and I did try. As soon asI was out of high school, I
called the US Consulate in Italyand inquired about that, and
that's when I learned that youneed a green card to join. And
(04:30):
that sort of clashed againstthese ideas that I had, also
from media and from just generalknowledge about the US military
as being open to anybody andeverybody, all immigrants. Well,
it turned out it wasn't true.
You need a green card. Well, sohow do you get a green card?
Turns out it's not that easy.
You have to go to the UnitedStates. And either, I mean, you
(04:55):
can marry and, you know, get agreen card that way, or through.
A work sponsor, but to get a jobin the United States, then you
have to get a work visa. And toget a work visa, you have to
have good qualifications, sonamely, maybe US education. So
that's partially why I wanted topursue a US education in the
first place. But flash forwardto 10 years later, I'm still in
(05:19):
search of that green card, whichI haven't been able to attain
yet, just yet. And now I'mturning 34 and so I'm almost not
eligible for the US militaryanyway, but, but all these 10
years, I wondered why, why waswhy was I not eligible for the
(05:40):
US military, being a reasonablyhealthy person willing to serve
with with the you know, the goodof the United States at heart.
And it didn't make much sense tome, and it didn't make much
sense to all the recruiters thatI ever spoke to who always tried
(06:01):
to find loopholes to get me in,but simply couldn't, because of
US law and and these wasparticularly senseless,
senseless in the light of, youknow, the recruiting challenges
that the US military has beenexperiencing for the past
Jim Cardoso (06:16):
few years. Yeah, no. I mean, that's a great
story, and you're right. I mean,the way you tie it at the end
you say, I mean, there's look,there's US law, and there's
probably reasons for the US law,but at the same time, there's
this ongoing recruiting crisisthat's happening. So juxtaposed
together, it seems that maybeit's again, the old, the old,
something should be done. I'mnot sure what it is, but
(06:36):
something should be done. Andyour article then highlights
some some other areas as well,and some solutions that could be
could be done along those lines.
Dr. Guido Rossi (06:44):
Can I one thing real quickly? Also, as a trained
historian, I also tended to lookat the past and past conflicts
for the United States and whatit did during those conflicts,
namely War Two, when it didenlist a huge number of non
citizens, and it handsomely wonthat conflict, just like other
(07:06):
conflicts. And so the presentday limitations for non citizens
to serve, they make even lesssense in the light of us best
history. Well,
Jim Cardoso (07:18):
I will say that the US Army's loss is GNSI gain. I'm
it's, I'm glad to have you hereas one of our research fellows.
We look forward to, I mean, lookfor discussing research, but I
also look forward to seeingother research that you're going
to do. Thank you in the I'm gladto be here in the time at, yes,
this is not a bad place to be soand you can, you can contribute
in different ways. So lookforward to seeing that you
(07:40):
discussed some of the numberspointing to a worsening
recruiting crisis, including howyou know the indications of an
upturn in 2024 weren't exactly,not exactly accurate. Why did
these figures from 2022 to 2024concern you? And why should they
concern the US?
Dr. Guido Rossi (07:58):
So some people even dispute the existence of a
recruiting crisis, pointing atthe fact that the goals were met
and slightly surpassed in 2024but these goals that were set
for 2022 and 2023 so the twopreceding fiscal years from 2024
were not met and actually by aLong Shot, despite having been
(08:20):
even reduced from the originalgoals. And it's not just that
fact, but the fact that thegains derived from specific
maneuvers, some specific choicesmade by the services to try to
(08:41):
get as many people in aspossible by issuing waivers or
by or through the preparatorycourses. The preparatory courses
so the Future Soldier,preparatory course was
established by the army in 2022and a future sailor preparatory
(09:02):
course was established by theNavy the following year based
upon the success, quote,unquote, of the Army's
preparatory course. And thesecourses try to bring up the
standards those applicants whocan quite meet the enlistment
requirements, either in terms ofphysical requirements or
(09:22):
academic requirements. Theybasically, you know, bring them
under their own wings and trainthem for a set number of weeks.
I don't remember exactly where,how long, I'm sorry, and they
bring them up to standards, andthen they retest them and they
are supposed to qualify. Andthen they bring them in. But of
(09:43):
course, these costs money andfacilities for Yemen,
specifically, the the less spaceavailable forced some recruits
from 2023 to be postponed to2024 because they didn't have
the space available to actuallytrain them. Them. So this is a
series of of short termsolutions that, first of all,
(10:06):
cost money, and second of allare I see them as short term
solutions, because, in the faceof declining standards,
educational physical healthworsen, criminal records, these
solutions tend to rescuebasically these applicants,
(10:26):
right? But unless you expand thethe tolerance level at one
point, the decline will be sowide that it it won't be
possible to rescue them and askyou anymore and so and on top of
that, like I mentioned, it costsmoney and actually increasing,
(10:50):
increasing expenditure forrecruiting, recruiting programs.
It's another issue, maybe eventhe biggest issue, because, for
instance, recruiting. I havehere quick data on the on the
call increasing cost ofrecruiting in 2024 it was more
(11:11):
than twice the amount of 2001which was 278 point 8 million.
And at this rate, the defense,if the defense budget remains
unvaried by 2039 recruiting willconsume all, the entirety of the
defense budget. Jeez. Okay, soit's not, it's not a sustainable
solution, yeah,
Jim Cardoso (11:31):
just paying for it is not a sustainable solution,
right? Yeah. I mean, you have tofind, yeah. I'm not an expert,
and you know, you've done theresearch, and I experienced it
when I ran the ROTC program hereat University of South Florida.
That's the first time I metAlicia as well. And as we were
bringing students on the onearea that I saw that was an a
source of frustration was in themedical and we we applied for so
(11:56):
many medical waivers, and somewere granted and some weren't.
And one frustration was, ofcourse, some that weren't
granted for students I had thatwere just extraordinarily
healthy. And one of them, Iknow, he wasn't granted a
waiver. He went on to be aprofessional bodybuilder. I
mean, he's a very healthy youngman. I mean, the Air Force, and
he was a good Cadet as well. Butalso, I was struck by the fact
(12:18):
that we're doing so manywaivers? Why? Why can't we re
look at what the medicalstandards are to begin with? I'm
not saying Open up, you know,Pandora's box, but let's look
strategically and maybe some ofthese things. Maybe the fact
that you had a rash as a childdoesn't mean you have lifelong
eczema and you can't serve yournation. That's some of the
(12:39):
things we were we wereencountering. So
Dr. Guido Rossi (12:41):
as a matter of fact, they have done that with
the and that's good. Yeah, it'sgood with the shift from the
Military Health System Genesis,which originally basically was a
computerized, very universal,very comprehensive way to check
the health records of all theall the applicants, instead of
(13:01):
having them self report, becausethrough self reporting, you
know, applicants could, couldgloss over certain issues that
they had had, or they were also,could also be coached by the
recruiters to to not addresssome issues. But these Military
Health System Genesis had theopposite problem that it
(13:22):
reported asthma that they mighthave had at seven years old.
Yeah, that didn't affect themanymore and so and so. That
created the need for a lot ofwaivers and a lot of backlog,
and
Jim Cardoso (13:35):
that slowed things down tremendously. Yeah, the
amount of work that they weredoing to try to clear these
waivers was just astronomical.
Dr. Guido Rossi (13:41):
Recently, they adopted a new system called
medical accession record pilotthat that acknowledges whether
these conditions should bedisqualified for service or not,
and also how many, how much timehas passed ever since they
experienced some conditionscould, that could be
(14:01):
disqualifying. And also the listof conditions that are not
considered, considereddisqualifying for service has
been reduced from, I think, from54 to 31 so some like, I think
childhood asthma has been hasbeen taken off, yep. And also
(14:22):
ADHD as well. Okay. And so some,you know, could be debatable.
Maybe some, not
Jim Cardoso (14:30):
just the fact that they're, I mean, just the fact
they opened it up, some, I mean,the overall point is that, you
know, there's so many waivers,and you talk about, what is it?
One in six or getting waivers? Ithink so maybe we need to look
at the waiver process and dothese things really require
waivers? Maybe re look at whatreally is disqualifying, and
(14:52):
some things don't need to bedisqualifying, but potentially,
and that would open up the pooland and smooth the road. It as
well. So there's not the waiverprocess. It just it eats up a
lot of time as well. Sure,
Dr. Guido Rossi (15:06):
the figure that you pointed at the one out of
six, that was especially in 2022when they were really trying to
to win that recruitingchallenge. But of course, the
problem is, well, first of allis that these waivers are any
way. They're on the rise becauseof declining health, yeah, and
as long as these conditions areagain, they shouldn't be
(15:28):
disqualifying for service. I'mtold in agreement that they
should be overlooked, and thesepeople should be accepted for
service, but they're some sortof standard, some sort of limits
to that should also be kept inmind. And we can't continue to
expand the list, or ratherreducing the list of
disqualifying conditions andand, or maybe even for multiple
(15:52):
conditions that shouldn't bedisqualifying. How many
conditions, disqualifyingconditions can we tolerate in
one single applicant, you know,yeah, yeah. I mean, if it's got
asthma, okay, if you've gotADHD, Okay, what about
Jim Cardoso (16:09):
as multiple ADHD, yeah, you have to take into
account, yeah, I agree with youthere.
Dr. Guido Rossi (16:13):
And the and the problem is also that many of
these waivers are not just formedical conditions, are also so
called Moral waivers, so forcriminal offenses, essentially,
some of them drug use of drugsor other felonies, and I'm not
sure if misdemeanors. I've neverquite understood the difference
(16:33):
between misdemeanors andfelonies, but
Jim Cardoso (16:35):
still, pack a gum and you can't join the military.
You know? Who knows? But let me,I'll tell you what you have one
other aspect you explore. Butlet me, and that's with a
certain you know, personnel andsenior leadership moves that you
see required in Department ofDefense. But let me go and turn
to Alicia for a little bit. Letme pull her in. You know, your
research, Alicia focuses more onquality of life for military
(16:57):
families and and I guess, thelack of understanding of the
modern stressors they encounterand its impact, subsequently on
recruiting and retention. Nowyou know, I'll say that military
lifestyle has always had itsunique stressors. I knew that
you knew that from personalexperience, what do you see as
change in the currentenvironment that's increased
(17:17):
that thank you for having
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (17:18):
me today.
Colonel Cardo said it's great toreconnect with you and to
finally meet Dr Rossi. And asyou had mentioned earlier in the
segment, Dr Rossi's articlereally caught my interest
because I am a family andpediatric nurse practitioner and
live in the Tampa Bay area,which is right outside of
MacDill Air Force Base, and hadworked with military connected
(17:40):
children in the civilian to mycivilian job with the
Hillsborough County SchoolDistrict, as well as caring for
children out of McDill Air ForceBase. And I read the 2010 the
initial report called missionreadiness, and it's what was the
report done by 100 retiredgenerals and admirals who were
looking at recruitment issues.
(18:03):
And the report was actuallytitled too fat to fight, and it
really sounded the alarm onrecruitment issues facing the
Department of Defense, andleaked those issues potentially
to a national security threat.
And at that time, 75% ofindividuals between the ages of
17 and 24 were unable to jointhe military, primarily because
(18:26):
of obesity, health comorbiditysecondary to obesity, and like
Dr Rossi mentioned,incarceration, drugs, alcohol
and a couple other issues. Fastforward to 2023 that number is
now increased to 77% of kidsbeing unable to join the
(18:48):
military for those same reasons,hence why we're having to issue
a lot of waivers for theseindividuals to join the
military. And as you mentioned,my work primarily now is with
military families, specificallythe impact of parental military
service on military connectedkids. And when I read his
article, what really made mestart thinking is historically,
(19:10):
our military families havesignificantly helped in filling
those recruitment gaps andhelped me, yeah, helped and
helped mitigate that recruitmentcrisis, and they've done this
through a legacy of multigenerational Military Family
Service. When you look at newrecruits today, enlisted
(19:35):
recruits, 25% of new recruitshave a parent or parent who is
currently or has served in themilitary, and upwards to 80%
have had a family member who wasserved, whether it be a parent,
a sibling, a grandparent, aunt,uncle, cousin. So there is a
huge connection for ourmilitary. Us going into the
(19:58):
military. And when we thinkabout that, it becomes really
important, because while thefocus of military resilience
research has been primarily onthe service member, it's really
critically important that weexpand that focus to include the
entire military family. We needto really focus on military
(20:19):
family health and resilience andrisk that these military family
members are facing, becausethese are the key factors to not
only today's mission readinessfor that service member, but
also recruitment for tomorrow'svolunteer professional armed
services. And like I said, as Imentioned, you know, we don't
(20:41):
want to disenfranchise ourmilitary families, because this
will lead to less and less goinginto the military. The number
one predictor of a servicemember remaining on active duty
is the satisfaction of the outat home spouse, and we know a
large percentage of those athome, spouses are women. There
(21:03):
are men. But you know, we haveto take into account things like
spousal employment or lack ofspousal employment, which, with
every move of a service member,that military spouse typically
has to try and find a new job.
That job may be for one to threeyears, depending on how long
(21:26):
that relocation cycle is, and itoften places them at a
disadvantage for employment. Solooking at, like I said, spousal
employment, and when we thinkabout a single income family
because a military spouse isunable to be employed. We are
(21:47):
also those military families arealso facing housing and food
insecurity, and this directlyimpacts not only the service
member and the spouse, but theirchildren. And once again, when
that spouse thinks about theneeds of her his or her family,
they also incorporate the needsof their children. And we, you
(22:11):
know, specifically looking athealth care and academic
academic continuity. Once again,you know, from birth to, you
know, adolescents, we're lookingat a need for continuity of care
from health perspective, makingsure that these you know,
milestones are being made met,immunizations are received,
(22:34):
basic primary health care,anticipatory guidance, all of
that stuff. And if we are, youknow, not having, you know, if
there's a lack in thatcontinuity of care, you know,
this puts that child's healthand welfare at risk. So, like I
said, critically important thatwe, you know, focus not only on
(22:55):
the service member and, youknow, recruitment and retention,
but how are we going to supportthe families so that they, you
know, remain a healthy, vibrantpart of that decision to stay in
the military. And should a childdown the road decide when they,
you know, hit that 18 years ofage that they want to join the
(23:16):
military, that they've had apositive, healthy experience
watching their their parentsserve, and being part of that,
that military family. So
Jim Cardoso (23:25):
from I know, from a healthcare perspective, the
military tends to focus on thehealth of the member, the
military member. So that way,you can have a healthy fighting
force for the nation's conflictsyou're but what you're saying is
that it's just, it's just asimportant, at least highly
important, to focus on thehealth care and the just the
(23:47):
well being of the family, notbecause it's the right thing to
do, which, of course, it is, butas a recruiting and retention
tool as well, which can helpsolve A larger crisis. Do you
make sure I'm characterizingthat, that A and B? Do you see
kind of a cognizance of this inthe military, that this is, this
(24:09):
is important in that way.
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (24:11):
I think in the military, we see that, I
know, over the last severalyears, there's been some shifts
in our military families nowreceiving care out in the
civilian sector, the DHA hasshifted some of the health care
from the MTFs into the civiliansector. Same thing we're seeing.
The same thing with our veteranpopulation. Many of them are
(24:32):
seeking care in the communitysetting. However, once again, my
line of research and work hasalso been focused on educating
healthcare providers to meet theunique healthcare needs of our
service members, veterans andmilitary family members who are
seeking care in the civiliansector. We've opened up all
these opportunities for the themto be seen out by civilian
(24:55):
providers. However, what we'refinding is most of them do not
understand. And the uniquehealthcare needs of service
members, veterans and families,they don't have the cultural
competence to provide culturallycompetent care, and oftentimes,
when these individuals areseeking care in the civilian
sector, they often kind of gounnoticed. No one asked the
(25:17):
question, have you ever servedor do you have a spouse or a
parent who is serving in themilitary, just simply asking
those questions can really helpa healthcare provider guide that
military family members care andaddress those much larger
military connected, healthrelated issues. But do you
Jim Cardoso (25:40):
think a healthcare provider? I'm sorry, but I'm
just, it just popped into myhead. Do you think a healthcare
provider, even knowing thatmembers background and look, we
live in in Tampa, MacDill AirForce Base is here, so there's a
as a healthy militarypopulation. Do you think that
healthcare provider, knowingthat would be able to then do
something about it, likemodulate their care mode, you
(26:03):
know, adjust their approach. Imean, what you know, can they do
the things that would help thembetter relate to the continued
building of resilience in our inour military families?
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (26:14):
I 100% agree that having that veteran
centric healthcare, educationand knowledge does really
improve health outcomes in ournot only our service member
care, but also in the care thatwe're giving or providing for
our military families. Forexample, when you think about
(26:35):
someone who comes in for a kneeinjury, and we treat them very
differently if they are, youknow, potentially in the
civilian sector, behind, sittingbehind a desk all day, versus,
let's consider the infantrysoldier that has PT every
morning at 5am has to carry arucksack that's anywhere
between, you know what, 50 and70 or more pounds. And may you
(26:59):
know and has to carry that, youknow, that rucksack? It's a very
different knowing that I wouldtreat that patient very
differently than I would someonein the civilian sector. When I
would see my kids and theclinic, and they would come in
and complain of things like, Ican't sleep. I'm having anxiety
(27:23):
sometimes, just asking thatprobing question, you know,
what's going on with you? Youknow? And I always ask, you
know, especially in my schools,where I knew I had a significant
number of military families. Byany chance, do you have a parent
who's in the military? And theywould say, yes, my dad or my
mom's deployed. They've been inAfghanistan for six months.
Well, I would, you know, onceagain, treat that child very
(27:45):
differently than I wouldsomebody who is coming in for
other types of anxiety relateddisorders. And once and once
again, how you chart things in apatient's chart when that child
becomes, you know, 18 years ofage and decides they want to go
into the military, those recordsare pulled. So knowing how to
(28:09):
navigate some of thesehealthcare issues and the
context in which thosehealthcare issues present is
extremely helpful in caring forour military families.
Jim Cardoso (28:23):
Is there a way of educating healthcare
professionals so they so theycan do that better? Look, I know
when we were, when I was the RTCcommander, and you know, we had
these cadets that were lookingat waivers. We We usually told
them to get more than oneopinion, especially when the
first opinion didn't jive withwhat they were looking looking
to do. And they could usually,and they'd usually talk to their
(28:45):
peers who've had success, andtheir peer could say, well, you
know, hey, I went to Dr Schmidtlab. And yeah, Dr Schmidt lab
seems to understand the theprocess. And so they can
diagnose, and they can, youknow, look at the types of
treatment necessary that'll makeyou more competitive for that
waiver. So some would know andsome wouldn't. How do we educate
(29:09):
more of them so they at leastunderstand what the needs of the
service are and at least factorthat into their care?
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (29:16):
I think if anything, 20 years of war has
really opened up the eyes of thehealthcare profession, looking
at like from the medical side,oftentimes, our interns and
residents, medical students,interns and residents, all do
rotations through the VA onceagain, working with veterans,
(29:37):
learning how to provide thatculturally competent care to our
service members and veterans.
Many Colleges of Nursing aroundthe country have started
programs under the University ofColorado has a master's and a
doctoral program focused onveteran health care. Our own
College of Nursing here at USF,we have a course introduction.
The military and veteran healththat is open to not only our
(30:01):
nursing students, but to allstudents across campus. And it's
really focused on militarycultural competence. We talk
about what does it mean to be aservice member? What does it
mean to be a veteran? We talkabout the different branches of
the service and their uniquemissions and visions. And then
(30:21):
we go into the military family.
We talk about women veterans. Wetalk about physical wounds of
war, psychological wounds of warand military sexual trauma. And
every student, and I've hadprobably close to 1500 nursing
students over the past 10 yearsthat have taken this course, and
(30:44):
each one of them has said it hasreally expanded, not only how
they're going to sometimes theydon't even know their patients
or veterans because they nevereven thought to ask the
question, but it also gives thema foundation on how to answer
that question, how tocomfortably answer that
(31:04):
question, and if they don't knowexactly how to provide that
care, at least they know whatresources are available within
the military community, the VAcommunity, and within the
veteran service organizationsyou know, not only within The
Tampa Bay area, but around thecountry, so more and more
universities are offeringcourses. I just spoke to someone
(31:26):
in the Dallas area that in hispublic court public health
program, they now have a veteranhealth course specialty. So you
know, we're seeing a lot ofthese programs and courses pop
up across the country in thedifferent healthcare
disciplines. Well,
Jim Cardoso (31:46):
that's and that's good, you know. And so you'll
probably see the impacts ofthat. And maybe that's one of
those things that you started,you know, you're you, you work
on the apples on the tree, youknow, instead of the ones that
fell to the ground. And as thesenurse, these students graduate
and go out into the healthcare,their healthcare professions
that'll continue to spread thatmore and more. So there's a
better sense of some of theunique needs of the military
professional, the veteran andthe military family as well. We
(32:09):
spent a lot of time talkingabout the health side of it, and
that's important a questionabout that before we were sort
of starting to wrap up here. Sobefore we do, I do want to turn
to some of the the personnelside. And guy, a big part of
your article was the theemphasis on the criticality of
the under secretary Defense forPersonnel and readiness. Which
will you know, O, USD, PNR, Iknow it's a lot of letters
(32:31):
there, but just, I don't want tosay Under Secretary of readiness
and person personnel, personneland readiness. See, I can't even
say it more than twice withoutscrewing it up, but you talk
about them as a key part ofsolving the recruiting crisis,
this is a position mostAmericans, and I would say even
a lot of people in theDepartment of Defense are not
that familiar with what's socritical about USD, PNR, well,
Dr. Guido Rossi (32:55):
it's, it's, it's really hard to summarize
it, but essentially they overseethe entire human aspect of the
US military, all the branches,all the reserve components and
their families, as well theirhealth care. They set the, you
know, personal policyrecruiting, even the legislation
(33:18):
that, or rather, they set theenlistment requirements, what's
what's tolerated, what'saccepted, what's not accepted,
like I said, welfare, so all ofthat, basically. And so they are
also responsible forcoordinating the recruiting
efforts, where to focus theserecruiting efforts. And
(33:41):
essentially they are also theones that should be responsible
for addressing the recruitingcrisis. But one, one problem
that I see, it's that ever since2006 there hasn't really been a
lengthy tenure of an actualunder secretary, because ever
since 20, 2016 there has beenseveral under secretaries, but
(34:05):
they have all, have all beenacting so they are not there are
civilian civil servants who arenot responsible for the policy.
They only enact whatever theSecretary the executive, the
secret through the Secretary ofDefense requires them to do.
They don't really have aresponsibility for if the
(34:28):
recruiting effort in this caseis going and so all the policies
that have been either pursued ornot pursued, they haven't really
impacted on, on, on their job,and they haven't really been
evaluated on their performance,and so they have either just
critically applied whatever theexecutive have told them to do,
(34:52):
and they have not revised other,and because they don't have the
the authority to revise
Jim Cardoso (34:56):
other, nor the responsibility right,
ultimately.
Dr. Guido Rossi (35:00):
Definitely, ultimately, yeah, so, so, for
instance, they, they haven'ttaken a firm stance on some
things that would really, Ithink, benefit the the
recruiting effort, for instance,clarifying what is the social
media policy for all thebranches. And so the branches
really are acting in a sort ofunknown, and they're not sure
(35:23):
what, what they can how they canuse social media to to boost
their recruiting effort. And sothe army is doing it one way,
but it's really and they don'treally want to put too much
emphasis on on that they want,you know, they want to err on
the safe side rather than therisky side and the other
branches are not doing the samething. So because there, there's
(35:47):
a there is a lack of one singledirective that applies to all
the branches in terms of socialmedia, for instance, yeah. And
then other legislation that hasproven, I think, harmful for
recruiting purposes, such asthat relating to non citizens
who are also non permanentresidents but have skills that
(36:08):
would be very, very useful,vital, I would say for the
military that very restrictivepolicy has not been changed,
Even though it's, it's, it'sharmed the recruiting effort,
yeah,
Jim Cardoso (36:23):
so you're, I mean, so your recommendation would be,
if you know President Trump wereto call you today, your big
recommendation be, hire a notenacting but get a, no kidding,
Under Secretary Defense forPersonnel and readiness,
nominated, vetted, confirmed bythe Senate and in place so that
they have both the authority andthe sense of responsibility to
(36:46):
do some of that, and they canprovide that broad umbrella
guidance for the services tomove out in a standard, somewhat
standardized manner, yeah,
Dr. Guido Rossi (36:54):
and at least Yeah, taking control of the ship
for some time for provide firmand clear leadership to the
branches, at least in terms ofrecruiting effort. But since
we're also talk talking to DrRossiter, why not talking also
about how to improve welfare forthe families, healthcare for the
(37:16):
families as well. So yeah,
Jim Cardoso (37:19):
and not so much the ship, but, I mean, I guess the
fleet. So, you know, the Army isgoing to be the Navy, and
they're going to, they have tohave a level of independence,
but at the same time their nameis, you know, an overall
guidance and an understanding ofwhere we're trying to go as a
Department of Defense. So we'llsee. We have a new
administration. We have a newsecretary defense. I guess we'll
(37:42):
see if that that makes anydifference in the days ahead. So
whereas we're we're wrapping upkind of coming to the end of our
time, I want to go ahead andgive the mic to each of you one
last time, just for any finalthoughts. Guy, well, I mean, if
you've said all, you've have to,you have to say, that's fine.
But if you have anything thatyou want to, you want to discuss
briefly before we we head out.
Now's your time?
Dr. Guido Rossi (38:04):
Well, there's a I think there's lots to say.
Maybe we'll need to do a futuresecond part to this episode. But
one thing is that I wouldn't if,if I were a person of authority
in the DoD or in the office ofthe Under Secretary of Defense
personnel and reddens, Iwouldn't, you know, just a
(38:27):
little myself in a sense oftranquility, based off of the
results of the fiscal year 2024,which were, you know, they were
okay. They were boasted as beingexceptionally good. But the
reality is, they weresatisfactory, which is not
excellent, and the 2025, goalsare challenging. I would keep in
mind that you know these trendsthat we have underlined, the
(38:50):
declining education, theworsening criminal records, the
declining health of youngAmericans are much like also
just simply the shrinking poolof the demographic, because the
US society is aging, and youknow, this is only continuing to
get worse. These are not easilyreversible trends. They're not
(39:10):
completely irreversible. But theyou know, how do you improve the
education of Americans? How doyou improve their health? How do
you, you know, prevent or reducecrime among young Americans.
These are enormous questions,bigger issues, way bigger
questions, right? And so and theaging of the US population,
(39:31):
it's, I don't know if it'sreversible at all. So all these
little solutions that we've beentoying with, prep courses,
issuing waivers, trying to bemore discerning about what is
qualifying or disqualifying.
They are short term solutions.
Yeah, that that will only workfor so long, and that meanwhile,
they're costing money, whichalso, as we've seen, it's not a
(39:55):
it's not very sustainable in thelong term. So the only way to.
Counteract all these it's eitherwe reassess what the goals and
worldwide commitments of the USmilitary are, and we reduce them
so that they require lessmanpower. And so we're we're not
going to need as many people aswe need. Or if we want to
(40:16):
maintain those goals and thoseworldwide commitments, then we
have to think about sustainablestrategies, and that are not
short term solutions, long, longterm solutions. So how to expand
the pool, the demographic pool,that we're recruiting from? And
so
Jim Cardoso (40:35):
well? So there's no question. I mean, so we'll,
we'll, we'll probably come backthis, this, this topic in the
future sounds good for now.
We'll, we'll, we'll link yourwill definitely link your
article in the show notes aswell, so that way people can
look at that and people get toknow you as well. And I'm sure
you'll be doing furtherresearch, which will get
published in the future. Is oneI look forward to seeing that.
Alicia, over to you any finalthoughts on on what we've been
(40:56):
talking today as we get ready toexit the podcast.
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (41:01):
So sure, I think, you know, I know the
overarching focus of this wasrecruitment, but I think when we
think about recruitment,retention and recruitment are in
are interconnected. The more weservice members that we reach,
we we retain, the less we haveto recruit. And this is really
important, going back to theearlier conversation about the
(41:21):
Department of Defense budget, wespend anywhere from hundreds of
$1,000 to millions of dollarseducating and training our
service members. That's reallydependent on whatever their AFSC
or MOS is, but we spend a lot ofmoney. A lot of the Department
of Defense budget is focused ontraining of our soldier, sailor,
airman, Marine and guardians.
And when you think about this,it's critically important,
(41:45):
because, as I mentioned earlier,the number one predictor of
someone staying in the militaryis the satisfaction of the at
home spouse. So I think we needto really start to focus more on
the military family, especiallywhen you think that 50% of those
who served and the active dutyreserve and National Guard are
married, and approximately 40%have children. We have got to
(42:06):
take a more holistic,comprehensive view of the
military family. We can nolonger silo them and, you know,
address each member of thefamily's needs separately. We
really need to look at thosewraparound services and supports
to be able to address the needsof the entire military family.
You know, as it pertains tosupports during deployment and
(42:29):
relocation cycles, spousalemployment, you know, school
accessibility for our militaryconnected children and
collectively, health care accessand continuity for the entire
military family.
Jim Cardoso (42:45):
Yeah, you know, I look forward to seeing if in the
future, you know, you know,there's discussion about the
recruiting crisis, and I likehow you link recruiting and
retention. I do look forward tosee if we see any mind, you
know, adjustments in how we someof the services and capability
provide the military families,and see if that, see if some of
(43:07):
the things you're talking aboutright now do you start to seep
into the Department of Defense'spolicies to address, to then
acknowledge and then address therecruiting crisis. We'll see.
We'll see if they're listening,and we'll see if these, if these
things start to come around, andrecruiting starts to go up so
but just want to say first inthe studio, Dr Guido Rossi from
(43:32):
GNSI Research Fellow, thanks forjoining us today. It was a
pleasure. Thank you and Alicia,thank you as well for joining us
from the USF College of Nursing.
Great to hear from you again.
Great to link back up with youagain. Look forward to talking
more with you in the future.
Thank you very much. I want tothank doctors, Guido Rossi and
Alicia rostor for joining us onthis episode of at the boundary
(43:53):
their spotlight on militaryrecruitment and retention and
the threat it poses to nationalsecurity is a stark warning to
our civilian and militaryleaders. Been a pleasure having
them both here today, next weekon at the boundary, we'll have
on the show retired Marine CorpsColonel Seth Folsom, his 28 year
career in the Corps led him toIraq and Afghanistan during some
(44:14):
of the most tumultuous years inthose countries. He's the author
of a new book published thismonth by the US Naval Institute.
Press called nothing here worthdying for, Task Force lion in
Iraq, our Executive Directorhere at GNSI, retired Marine
Corps General Frank McKenzie, isa fan of the book and commented
on it. His articulate andinsightful book adds to the
(44:35):
considerable literature aboutMarines and small unit actions.
This is a book all Marinesshould read. Folsom will be our
guest next week on at theboundary. Be sure to join us.
Thanks for listening today. Ifyou like the podcast, please
share with your colleagues andnetwork. You can follow GNSI on
our LinkedIn X accounts at USF,underscore GNSI And check out
(44:55):
our website as well@usf.edu,Slash GNSI, where you can also
subscribe to our monthlynewsletter
that's going to wrap up thisepisode of at the boundary. Each
new episode will feature globaland national security issues
(45:17):
we've found to be insightful,intriguing, fascinating, maybe
controversial, but overall, justworth talking about. I'm Jim
Cardoso, and we'll see you atthe boundary.
hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode of atthe boundary podcast from the
global and national securityInstitute at the University of
South Florida. I'm Jim Cardoso,Senior Director for GNSI, and
your host for at the boundary.
On today's show, we're going tobe discussing military
(00:32):
recruitment and retention. Asretired officer who had the
honor of serving in the AirForce for 30 years, it's
disconcerting to realize thatthe organization I grew up in,
the Department of Defenseoverall, is having difficulties
finding people who want toexperience what I was privileged
to in serving our nation. Now,in a happy coincidence, this
(00:53):
episode has connected me againwith a former colleague, Dr
Alicia Rossiter. My last AirForce assignment was as
commander of the ROTC programhere at the University of South
Florida, we had several nursingstudents entering the Air Force
through ROTC who went throughAlicia's program, so we had
shared interest in theirsuccess. She's one of our guests
today. She'll be joined by ourown GNSI Research Fellow, Dr
(01:16):
Guido Rossi. His recent articleregarding the military
recruitment crisis caught theattention of Dr Rossiter, so it
seemed unnatural to bring themon to discuss this unique threat
to national security that gets alot of attention in places like
the Pentagon, but maybe not onMain Street America. I'm eager
to hear what guy and Alicia haveto say today, but a couple of
(01:37):
quick notes. First,we're less than a month away
from GNSI Tampa summit five,which tackles lessons the world
can take away from the ongoingwar in Ukraine,
emerging technologies andinnovative strategies such as
drone employment, InformationOperations, social media and
Battlefield medical treatmenthave featured prominently and
(01:59):
will impact how combatantsaround the world approach future
conflict. How can we expectthese lessons to be applied, and
how should US national policyaddress these changes? There's
no cost to attend, butregistration is required and the
seats are filling up. You cancheck out the full agenda and
list the speakers on ourwebsite. We'll drop a link in
the show notes as well. We alsopublished two new genocide
(02:22):
decision briefs last week. Thefirst tackles questions involved
with Congress designatingMexican cartels as terrorist
organizations. That's been ahotly debated topic in the first
weeks of the Trumpadministration. The second
decision brief is titled,keeping allies in the fight
Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq.
We'll drop links to both ofthese decision briefs in the
show notes. Okay, well, let'sget going with our guest, Dr guy
(02:45):
Rossi is a research fellow hereat GNSI who recently wrote an
article for real clear defensethat made some revelations about
the recruitment crisis currentlyplaguing all branches of the US
military. One of the mostsurprising notes in guy's
article is the fact that 77% ofyoung Americans between the ages
of 17 and 24 do not meet theminimum qualifications for
(03:08):
military service without awaiver of some sort. Dr Alicia
Rossiter is a retired US AirForce Lieutenant Colonel who's
now the Chief Officer ofMilitary and Veteran Affairs
College of Nursing at USFHealth, she's done inspirational
research on a related topic, howmilitary recruitment and
retention is impacted bycommunity care for and
(03:29):
resiliency of military families.
And as I mentioned, she's aformer colleague. I've enjoyed
reconnecting with guys in thestudio with us. Thanks for being
Dr. Guido Rossi (03:41):
here. Thank you for having me all right. And
Jim Cardoso (03:45):
Alicia, you're joining us virtually getting
over the flu last week. Welcometo the program.
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (03:50):
Thank you so much for having me as well.
Okay,
Jim Cardoso (03:53):
so we'll start in studio with you. Guy, your
recent article in real cleardefense was entitled restoring
military leadership to addressthe recruiting crisis. I know
this is your line of research,but what inspired you to publish
this article?
Dr. Guido Rossi (04:08):
Well, I have to admit that it stems a little bit
from personal experience,because I personally wanted to
join the US military, the USArmy, specifically, for many
years, and I did try. As soon asI was out of high school, I
called the US Consulate in Italyand inquired about that, and
that's when I learned that youneed a green card to join. And
(04:30):
that sort of clashed againstthese ideas that I had, also
from media and from just generalknowledge about the US military
as being open to anybody andeverybody, all immigrants. Well,
it turned out it wasn't true.
You need a green card. Well, sohow do you get a green card?
Turns out it's not that easy.
You have to go to the UnitedStates. And either, I mean, you
(04:55):
can marry and, you know, get agreen card that way, or through.
A work sponsor, but to get a jobin the United States, then you
have to get a work visa. And toget a work visa, you have to
have good qualifications, sonamely, maybe US education. So
that's partially why I wanted topursue a US education in the
first place. But flash forwardto 10 years later, I'm still in
(05:19):
search of that green card, whichI haven't been able to attain
yet, just yet. And now I'mturning 34 and so I'm almost not
eligible for the US militaryanyway, but, but all these 10
years, I wondered why, why waswhy was I not eligible for the
(05:40):
US military, being a reasonablyhealthy person willing to serve
with with the you know, the goodof the United States at heart.
And it didn't make much sense tome, and it didn't make much
sense to all the recruiters thatI ever spoke to who always tried
(06:01):
to find loopholes to get me in,but simply couldn't, because of
US law and and these wasparticularly senseless,
senseless in the light of, youknow, the recruiting challenges
that the US military has beenexperiencing for the past
Jim Cardoso (06:16):
few years. Yeah, no. I mean, that's a great
story, and you're right. I mean,the way you tie it at the end
you say, I mean, there's look,there's US law, and there's
probably reasons for the US law,but at the same time, there's
this ongoing recruiting crisisthat's happening. So juxtaposed
together, it seems that maybeit's again, the old, the old,
something should be done. I'mnot sure what it is, but
(06:36):
something should be done. Andyour article then highlights
some some other areas as well,and some solutions that could be
could be done along those lines.
Dr. Guido Rossi (06:44):
Can I one thing real quickly? Also, as a trained
historian, I also tended to lookat the past and past conflicts
for the United States and whatit did during those conflicts,
namely War Two, when it didenlist a huge number of non
citizens, and it handsomely wonthat conflict, just like other
(07:06):
conflicts. And so the presentday limitations for non citizens
to serve, they make even lesssense in the light of us best
history. Well,
Jim Cardoso (07:18):
I will say that the US Army's loss is GNSI gain. I'm
it's, I'm glad to have you hereas one of our research fellows.
We look forward to, I mean, lookfor discussing research, but I
also look forward to seeingother research that you're going
to do. Thank you in the I'm gladto be here in the time at, yes,
this is not a bad place to be soand you can, you can contribute
in different ways. So lookforward to seeing that you
(07:40):
discussed some of the numberspointing to a worsening
recruiting crisis, including howyou know the indications of an
upturn in 2024 weren't exactly,not exactly accurate. Why did
these figures from 2022 to 2024concern you? And why should they
concern the US?
Dr. Guido Rossi (07:58):
So some people even dispute the existence of a
recruiting crisis, pointing atthe fact that the goals were met
and slightly surpassed in 2024but these goals that were set
for 2022 and 2023 so the twopreceding fiscal years from 2024
were not met and actually by aLong Shot, despite having been
(08:20):
even reduced from the originalgoals. And it's not just that
fact, but the fact that thegains derived from specific
maneuvers, some specific choicesmade by the services to try to
(08:41):
get as many people in aspossible by issuing waivers or
by or through the preparatorycourses. The preparatory courses
so the Future Soldier,preparatory course was
established by the army in 2022and a future sailor preparatory
(09:02):
course was established by theNavy the following year based
upon the success, quote,unquote, of the Army's
preparatory course. And thesecourses try to bring up the
standards those applicants whocan quite meet the enlistment
requirements, either in terms ofphysical requirements or
(09:22):
academic requirements. Theybasically, you know, bring them
under their own wings and trainthem for a set number of weeks.
I don't remember exactly where,how long, I'm sorry, and they
bring them up to standards, andthen they retest them and they
are supposed to qualify. Andthen they bring them in. But of
(09:43):
course, these costs money andfacilities for Yemen,
specifically, the the less spaceavailable forced some recruits
from 2023 to be postponed to2024 because they didn't have
the space available to actuallytrain them. Them. So this is a
series of of short termsolutions that, first of all,
(10:06):
cost money, and second of allare I see them as short term
solutions, because, in the faceof declining standards,
educational physical healthworsen, criminal records, these
solutions tend to rescuebasically these applicants,
(10:26):
right? But unless you expand thethe tolerance level at one
point, the decline will be sowide that it it won't be
possible to rescue them and askyou anymore and so and on top of
that, like I mentioned, it costsmoney and actually increasing,
(10:50):
increasing expenditure forrecruiting, recruiting programs.
It's another issue, maybe eventhe biggest issue, because, for
instance, recruiting. I havehere quick data on the on the
call increasing cost ofrecruiting in 2024 it was more
(11:11):
than twice the amount of 2001which was 278 point 8 million.
And at this rate, the defense,if the defense budget remains
unvaried by 2039 recruiting willconsume all, the entirety of the
defense budget. Jeez. Okay, soit's not, it's not a sustainable
solution, yeah,
Jim Cardoso (11:31):
just paying for it is not a sustainable solution,
right? Yeah. I mean, you have tofind, yeah. I'm not an expert,
and you know, you've done theresearch, and I experienced it
when I ran the ROTC program hereat University of South Florida.
That's the first time I metAlicia as well. And as we were
bringing students on the onearea that I saw that was an a
source of frustration was in themedical and we we applied for so
(11:56):
many medical waivers, and somewere granted and some weren't.
And one frustration was, ofcourse, some that weren't
granted for students I had thatwere just extraordinarily
healthy. And one of them, Iknow, he wasn't granted a
waiver. He went on to be aprofessional bodybuilder. I
mean, he's a very healthy youngman. I mean, the Air Force, and
he was a good Cadet as well. Butalso, I was struck by the fact
(12:18):
that we're doing so manywaivers? Why? Why can't we re
look at what the medicalstandards are to begin with? I'm
not saying Open up, you know,Pandora's box, but let's look
strategically and maybe some ofthese things. Maybe the fact
that you had a rash as a childdoesn't mean you have lifelong
eczema and you can't serve yournation. That's some of the
(12:39):
things we were we wereencountering. So
Dr. Guido Rossi (12:41):
as a matter of fact, they have done that with
the and that's good. Yeah, it'sgood with the shift from the
Military Health System Genesis,which originally basically was a
computerized, very universal,very comprehensive way to check
the health records of all theall the applicants, instead of
(13:01):
having them self report, becausethrough self reporting, you
know, applicants could, couldgloss over certain issues that
they had had, or they were also,could also be coached by the
recruiters to to not addresssome issues. But these Military
Health System Genesis had theopposite problem that it
(13:22):
reported asthma that they mighthave had at seven years old.
Yeah, that didn't affect themanymore and so and so. That
created the need for a lot ofwaivers and a lot of backlog,
and
Jim Cardoso (13:35):
that slowed things down tremendously. Yeah, the
amount of work that they weredoing to try to clear these
waivers was just astronomical.
Dr. Guido Rossi (13:41):
Recently, they adopted a new system called
medical accession record pilotthat that acknowledges whether
these conditions should bedisqualified for service or not,
and also how many, how much timehas passed ever since they
experienced some conditionscould, that could be
(14:01):
disqualifying. And also the listof conditions that are not
considered, considereddisqualifying for service has
been reduced from, I think, from54 to 31 so some like, I think
childhood asthma has been hasbeen taken off, yep. And also
(14:22):
ADHD as well. Okay. And so some,you know, could be debatable.
Maybe some, not
Jim Cardoso (14:30):
just the fact that they're, I mean, just the fact
they opened it up, some, I mean,the overall point is that, you
know, there's so many waivers,and you talk about, what is it?
One in six or getting waivers? Ithink so maybe we need to look
at the waiver process and dothese things really require
waivers? Maybe re look at whatreally is disqualifying, and
(14:52):
some things don't need to bedisqualifying, but potentially,
and that would open up the pooland and smooth the road. It as
well. So there's not the waiverprocess. It just it eats up a
lot of time as well. Sure,
Dr. Guido Rossi (15:06):
the figure that you pointed at the one out of
six, that was especially in 2022when they were really trying to
to win that recruitingchallenge. But of course, the
problem is, well, first of allis that these waivers are any
way. They're on the rise becauseof declining health, yeah, and
as long as these conditions areagain, they shouldn't be
(15:28):
disqualifying for service. I'mtold in agreement that they
should be overlooked, and thesepeople should be accepted for
service, but they're some sortof standard, some sort of limits
to that should also be kept inmind. And we can't continue to
expand the list, or ratherreducing the list of
disqualifying conditions andand, or maybe even for multiple
(15:52):
conditions that shouldn't bedisqualifying. How many
conditions, disqualifyingconditions can we tolerate in
one single applicant, you know,yeah, yeah. I mean, if it's got
asthma, okay, if you've gotADHD, Okay, what about
Jim Cardoso (16:09):
as multiple ADHD, yeah, you have to take into
account, yeah, I agree with youthere.
Dr. Guido Rossi (16:13):
And the and the problem is also that many of
these waivers are not just formedical conditions, are also so
called Moral waivers, so forcriminal offenses, essentially,
some of them drug use of drugsor other felonies, and I'm not
sure if misdemeanors. I've neverquite understood the difference
(16:33):
between misdemeanors andfelonies, but
Jim Cardoso (16:35):
still, pack a gum and you can't join the military.
You know? Who knows? But let me,I'll tell you what you have one
other aspect you explore. Butlet me, and that's with a
certain you know, personnel andsenior leadership moves that you
see required in Department ofDefense. But let me go and turn
to Alicia for a little bit. Letme pull her in. You know, your
research, Alicia focuses more onquality of life for military
(16:57):
families and and I guess, thelack of understanding of the
modern stressors they encounterand its impact, subsequently on
recruiting and retention. Nowyou know, I'll say that military
lifestyle has always had itsunique stressors. I knew that
you knew that from personalexperience, what do you see as
change in the currentenvironment that's increased
(17:17):
that thank you for having
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (17:18):
me today.
Colonel Cardo said it's great toreconnect with you and to
finally meet Dr Rossi. And asyou had mentioned earlier in the
segment, Dr Rossi's articlereally caught my interest
because I am a family andpediatric nurse practitioner and
live in the Tampa Bay area,which is right outside of
MacDill Air Force Base, and hadworked with military connected
(17:40):
children in the civilian to mycivilian job with the
Hillsborough County SchoolDistrict, as well as caring for
children out of McDill Air ForceBase. And I read the 2010 the
initial report called missionreadiness, and it's what was the
report done by 100 retiredgenerals and admirals who were
looking at recruitment issues.
(18:03):
And the report was actuallytitled too fat to fight, and it
really sounded the alarm onrecruitment issues facing the
Department of Defense, andleaked those issues potentially
to a national security threat.
And at that time, 75% ofindividuals between the ages of
17 and 24 were unable to jointhe military, primarily because
(18:26):
of obesity, health comorbiditysecondary to obesity, and like
Dr Rossi mentioned,incarceration, drugs, alcohol
and a couple other issues. Fastforward to 2023 that number is
now increased to 77% of kidsbeing unable to join the
(18:48):
military for those same reasons,hence why we're having to issue
a lot of waivers for theseindividuals to join the
military. And as you mentioned,my work primarily now is with
military families, specificallythe impact of parental military
service on military connectedkids. And when I read his
article, what really made mestart thinking is historically,
(19:10):
our military families havesignificantly helped in filling
those recruitment gaps andhelped me, yeah, helped and
helped mitigate that recruitmentcrisis, and they've done this
through a legacy of multigenerational Military Family
Service. When you look at newrecruits today, enlisted
(19:35):
recruits, 25% of new recruitshave a parent or parent who is
currently or has served in themilitary, and upwards to 80%
have had a family member who wasserved, whether it be a parent,
a sibling, a grandparent, aunt,uncle, cousin. So there is a
huge connection for ourmilitary. Us going into the
(19:58):
military. And when we thinkabout that, it becomes really
important, because while thefocus of military resilience
research has been primarily onthe service member, it's really
critically important that weexpand that focus to include the
entire military family. We needto really focus on military
(20:19):
family health and resilience andrisk that these military family
members are facing, becausethese are the key factors to not
only today's mission readinessfor that service member, but
also recruitment for tomorrow'svolunteer professional armed
services. And like I said, as Imentioned, you know, we don't
(20:41):
want to disenfranchise ourmilitary families, because this
will lead to less and less goinginto the military. The number
one predictor of a servicemember remaining on active duty
is the satisfaction of the outat home spouse, and we know a
large percentage of those athome, spouses are women. There
(21:03):
are men. But you know, we haveto take into account things like
spousal employment or lack ofspousal employment, which, with
every move of a service member,that military spouse typically
has to try and find a new job.
That job may be for one to threeyears, depending on how long
(21:26):
that relocation cycle is, and itoften places them at a
disadvantage for employment. Solooking at, like I said, spousal
employment, and when we thinkabout a single income family
because a military spouse isunable to be employed. We are
(21:47):
also those military families arealso facing housing and food
insecurity, and this directlyimpacts not only the service
member and the spouse, but theirchildren. And once again, when
that spouse thinks about theneeds of her his or her family,
they also incorporate the needsof their children. And we, you
(22:11):
know, specifically looking athealth care and academic
academic continuity. Once again,you know, from birth to, you
know, adolescents, we're lookingat a need for continuity of care
from health perspective, makingsure that these you know,
milestones are being made met,immunizations are received,
(22:34):
basic primary health care,anticipatory guidance, all of
that stuff. And if we are, youknow, not having, you know, if
there's a lack in thatcontinuity of care, you know,
this puts that child's healthand welfare at risk. So, like I
said, critically important thatwe, you know, focus not only on
(22:55):
the service member and, youknow, recruitment and retention,
but how are we going to supportthe families so that they, you
know, remain a healthy, vibrantpart of that decision to stay in
the military. And should a childdown the road decide when they,
you know, hit that 18 years ofage that they want to join the
(23:16):
military, that they've had apositive, healthy experience
watching their their parentsserve, and being part of that,
that military family. So
Jim Cardoso (23:25):
from I know, from a healthcare perspective, the
military tends to focus on thehealth of the member, the
military member. So that way,you can have a healthy fighting
force for the nation's conflictsyou're but what you're saying is
that it's just, it's just asimportant, at least highly
important, to focus on thehealth care and the just the
(23:47):
well being of the family, notbecause it's the right thing to
do, which, of course, it is, butas a recruiting and retention
tool as well, which can helpsolve A larger crisis. Do you
make sure I'm characterizingthat, that A and B? Do you see
kind of a cognizance of this inthe military, that this is, this
(24:09):
is important in that way.
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (24:11):
I think in the military, we see that, I
know, over the last severalyears, there's been some shifts
in our military families nowreceiving care out in the
civilian sector, the DHA hasshifted some of the health care
from the MTFs into the civiliansector. Same thing we're seeing.
The same thing with our veteranpopulation. Many of them are
(24:32):
seeking care in the communitysetting. However, once again, my
line of research and work hasalso been focused on educating
healthcare providers to meet theunique healthcare needs of our
service members, veterans andmilitary family members who are
seeking care in the civiliansector. We've opened up all
these opportunities for the themto be seen out by civilian
(24:55):
providers. However, what we'refinding is most of them do not
understand. And the uniquehealthcare needs of service
members, veterans and families,they don't have the cultural
competence to provide culturallycompetent care, and oftentimes,
when these individuals areseeking care in the civilian
sector, they often kind of gounnoticed. No one asked the
(25:17):
question, have you ever servedor do you have a spouse or a
parent who is serving in themilitary, just simply asking
those questions can really helpa healthcare provider guide that
military family members care andaddress those much larger
military connected, healthrelated issues. But do you
Jim Cardoso (25:40):
think a healthcare provider? I'm sorry, but I'm
just, it just popped into myhead. Do you think a healthcare
provider, even knowing thatmembers background and look, we
live in in Tampa, MacDill AirForce Base is here, so there's a
as a healthy militarypopulation. Do you think that
healthcare provider, knowingthat would be able to then do
something about it, likemodulate their care mode, you
(26:03):
know, adjust their approach. Imean, what you know, can they do
the things that would help thembetter relate to the continued
building of resilience in our inour military families?
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (26:14):
I 100% agree that having that veteran
centric healthcare, educationand knowledge does really
improve health outcomes in ournot only our service member
care, but also in the care thatwe're giving or providing for
our military families. Forexample, when you think about
(26:35):
someone who comes in for a kneeinjury, and we treat them very
differently if they are, youknow, potentially in the
civilian sector, behind, sittingbehind a desk all day, versus,
let's consider the infantrysoldier that has PT every
morning at 5am has to carry arucksack that's anywhere
between, you know what, 50 and70 or more pounds. And may you
(26:59):
know and has to carry that, youknow, that rucksack? It's a very
different knowing that I wouldtreat that patient very
differently than I would someonein the civilian sector. When I
would see my kids and theclinic, and they would come in
and complain of things like, Ican't sleep. I'm having anxiety
(27:23):
sometimes, just asking thatprobing question, you know,
what's going on with you? Youknow? And I always ask, you
know, especially in my schools,where I knew I had a significant
number of military families. Byany chance, do you have a parent
who's in the military? And theywould say, yes, my dad or my
mom's deployed. They've been inAfghanistan for six months.
Well, I would, you know, onceagain, treat that child very
(27:45):
differently than I wouldsomebody who is coming in for
other types of anxiety relateddisorders. And once and once
again, how you chart things in apatient's chart when that child
becomes, you know, 18 years ofage and decides they want to go
into the military, those recordsare pulled. So knowing how to
(28:09):
navigate some of thesehealthcare issues and the
context in which thosehealthcare issues present is
extremely helpful in caring forour military families.
Jim Cardoso (28:23):
Is there a way of educating healthcare
professionals so they so theycan do that better? Look, I know
when we were, when I was the RTCcommander, and you know, we had
these cadets that were lookingat waivers. We We usually told
them to get more than oneopinion, especially when the
first opinion didn't jive withwhat they were looking looking
to do. And they could usually,and they'd usually talk to their
(28:45):
peers who've had success, andtheir peer could say, well, you
know, hey, I went to Dr Schmidtlab. And yeah, Dr Schmidt lab
seems to understand the theprocess. And so they can
diagnose, and they can, youknow, look at the types of
treatment necessary that'll makeyou more competitive for that
waiver. So some would know andsome wouldn't. How do we educate
(29:09):
more of them so they at leastunderstand what the needs of the
service are and at least factorthat into their care?
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (29:16):
I think if anything, 20 years of war has
really opened up the eyes of thehealthcare profession, looking
at like from the medical side,oftentimes, our interns and
residents, medical students,interns and residents, all do
rotations through the VA onceagain, working with veterans,
(29:37):
learning how to provide thatculturally competent care to our
service members and veterans.
Many Colleges of Nursing aroundthe country have started
programs under the University ofColorado has a master's and a
doctoral program focused onveteran health care. Our own
College of Nursing here at USF,we have a course introduction.
The military and veteran healththat is open to not only our
(30:01):
nursing students, but to allstudents across campus. And it's
really focused on militarycultural competence. We talk
about what does it mean to be aservice member? What does it
mean to be a veteran? We talkabout the different branches of
the service and their uniquemissions and visions. And then
(30:21):
we go into the military family.
We talk about women veterans. Wetalk about physical wounds of
war, psychological wounds of warand military sexual trauma. And
every student, and I've hadprobably close to 1500 nursing
students over the past 10 yearsthat have taken this course, and
(30:44):
each one of them has said it hasreally expanded, not only how
they're going to sometimes theydon't even know their patients
or veterans because they nevereven thought to ask the
question, but it also gives thema foundation on how to answer
that question, how tocomfortably answer that
(31:04):
question, and if they don't knowexactly how to provide that
care, at least they know whatresources are available within
the military community, the VAcommunity, and within the
veteran service organizationsyou know, not only within The
Tampa Bay area, but around thecountry, so more and more
universities are offeringcourses. I just spoke to someone
(31:26):
in the Dallas area that in hispublic court public health
program, they now have a veteranhealth course specialty. So you
know, we're seeing a lot ofthese programs and courses pop
up across the country in thedifferent healthcare
disciplines. Well,
Jim Cardoso (31:46):
that's and that's good, you know. And so you'll
probably see the impacts ofthat. And maybe that's one of
those things that you started,you know, you're you, you work
on the apples on the tree, youknow, instead of the ones that
fell to the ground. And as thesenurse, these students graduate
and go out into the healthcare,their healthcare professions
that'll continue to spread thatmore and more. So there's a
better sense of some of theunique needs of the military
professional, the veteran andthe military family as well. We
(32:09):
spent a lot of time talkingabout the health side of it, and
that's important a questionabout that before we were sort
of starting to wrap up here. Sobefore we do, I do want to turn
to some of the the personnelside. And guy, a big part of
your article was the theemphasis on the criticality of
the under secretary Defense forPersonnel and readiness. Which
will you know, O, USD, PNR, Iknow it's a lot of letters
(32:31):
there, but just, I don't want tosay Under Secretary of readiness
and person personnel, personneland readiness. See, I can't even
say it more than twice withoutscrewing it up, but you talk
about them as a key part ofsolving the recruiting crisis,
this is a position mostAmericans, and I would say even
a lot of people in theDepartment of Defense are not
that familiar with what's socritical about USD, PNR, well,
Dr. Guido Rossi (32:55):
it's, it's, it's really hard to summarize
it, but essentially they overseethe entire human aspect of the
US military, all the branches,all the reserve components and
their families, as well theirhealth care. They set the, you
know, personal policyrecruiting, even the legislation
(33:18):
that, or rather, they set theenlistment requirements, what's
what's tolerated, what'saccepted, what's not accepted,
like I said, welfare, so all ofthat, basically. And so they are
also responsible forcoordinating the recruiting
efforts, where to focus theserecruiting efforts. And
(33:41):
essentially they are also theones that should be responsible
for addressing the recruitingcrisis. But one, one problem
that I see, it's that ever since2006 there hasn't really been a
lengthy tenure of an actualunder secretary, because ever
since 20, 2016 there has beenseveral under secretaries, but
(34:05):
they have all, have all beenacting so they are not there are
civilian civil servants who arenot responsible for the policy.
They only enact whatever theSecretary the executive, the
secret through the Secretary ofDefense requires them to do.
They don't really have aresponsibility for if the
(34:28):
recruiting effort in this caseis going and so all the policies
that have been either pursued ornot pursued, they haven't really
impacted on, on, on their job,and they haven't really been
evaluated on their performance,and so they have either just
critically applied whatever theexecutive have told them to do,
(34:52):
and they have not revised other,and because they don't have the
the authority to revise
Jim Cardoso (34:56):
other, nor the responsibility right,
ultimately.
Dr. Guido Rossi (35:00):
Definitely, ultimately, yeah, so, so, for
instance, they, they haven'ttaken a firm stance on some
things that would really, Ithink, benefit the the
recruiting effort, for instance,clarifying what is the social
media policy for all thebranches. And so the branches
really are acting in a sort ofunknown, and they're not sure
(35:23):
what, what they can how they canuse social media to to boost
their recruiting effort. And sothe army is doing it one way,
but it's really and they don'treally want to put too much
emphasis on on that they want,you know, they want to err on
the safe side rather than therisky side and the other
branches are not doing the samething. So because there, there's
(35:47):
a there is a lack of one singledirective that applies to all
the branches in terms of socialmedia, for instance, yeah. And
then other legislation that hasproven, I think, harmful for
recruiting purposes, such asthat relating to non citizens
who are also non permanentresidents but have skills that
(36:08):
would be very, very useful,vital, I would say for the
military that very restrictivepolicy has not been changed,
Even though it's, it's, it'sharmed the recruiting effort,
yeah,
Jim Cardoso (36:23):
so you're, I mean, so your recommendation would be,
if you know President Trump wereto call you today, your big
recommendation be, hire a notenacting but get a, no kidding,
Under Secretary Defense forPersonnel and readiness,
nominated, vetted, confirmed bythe Senate and in place so that
they have both the authority andthe sense of responsibility to
(36:46):
do some of that, and they canprovide that broad umbrella
guidance for the services tomove out in a standard, somewhat
standardized manner, yeah,
Dr. Guido Rossi (36:54):
and at least Yeah, taking control of the ship
for some time for provide firmand clear leadership to the
branches, at least in terms ofrecruiting effort. But since
we're also talk talking to DrRossiter, why not talking also
about how to improve welfare forthe families, healthcare for the
(37:16):
families as well. So yeah,
Jim Cardoso (37:19):
and not so much the ship, but, I mean, I guess the
fleet. So, you know, the Army isgoing to be the Navy, and
they're going to, they have tohave a level of independence,
but at the same time their nameis, you know, an overall
guidance and an understanding ofwhere we're trying to go as a
Department of Defense. So we'llsee. We have a new
administration. We have a newsecretary defense. I guess we'll
(37:42):
see if that that makes anydifference in the days ahead. So
whereas we're we're wrapping upkind of coming to the end of our
time, I want to go ahead andgive the mic to each of you one
last time, just for any finalthoughts. Guy, well, I mean, if
you've said all, you've have to,you have to say, that's fine.
But if you have anything thatyou want to, you want to discuss
briefly before we we head out.
Now's your time?
Dr. Guido Rossi (38:04):
Well, there's a I think there's lots to say.
Maybe we'll need to do a futuresecond part to this episode. But
one thing is that I wouldn't if,if I were a person of authority
in the DoD or in the office ofthe Under Secretary of Defense
personnel and reddens, Iwouldn't, you know, just a
(38:27):
little myself in a sense oftranquility, based off of the
results of the fiscal year 2024,which were, you know, they were
okay. They were boasted as beingexceptionally good. But the
reality is, they weresatisfactory, which is not
excellent, and the 2025, goalsare challenging. I would keep in
mind that you know these trendsthat we have underlined, the
(38:50):
declining education, theworsening criminal records, the
declining health of youngAmericans are much like also
just simply the shrinking poolof the demographic, because the
US society is aging, and youknow, this is only continuing to
get worse. These are not easilyreversible trends. They're not
(39:10):
completely irreversible. But theyou know, how do you improve the
education of Americans? How doyou improve their health? How do
you, you know, prevent or reducecrime among young Americans.
These are enormous questions,bigger issues, way bigger
questions, right? And so and theaging of the US population,
(39:31):
it's, I don't know if it'sreversible at all. So all these
little solutions that we've beentoying with, prep courses,
issuing waivers, trying to bemore discerning about what is
qualifying or disqualifying.
They are short term solutions.
Yeah, that that will only workfor so long, and that meanwhile,
they're costing money, whichalso, as we've seen, it's not a
(39:55):
it's not very sustainable in thelong term. So the only way to.
Counteract all these it's eitherwe reassess what the goals and
worldwide commitments of the USmilitary are, and we reduce them
so that they require lessmanpower. And so we're we're not
going to need as many people aswe need. Or if we want to
(40:16):
maintain those goals and thoseworldwide commitments, then we
have to think about sustainablestrategies, and that are not
short term solutions, long, longterm solutions. So how to expand
the pool, the demographic pool,that we're recruiting from? And
so
Jim Cardoso (40:35):
well? So there's no question. I mean, so we'll,
we'll, we'll probably come backthis, this, this topic in the
future sounds good for now.
We'll, we'll, we'll link yourwill definitely link your
article in the show notes aswell, so that way people can
look at that and people get toknow you as well. And I'm sure
you'll be doing furtherresearch, which will get
published in the future. Is oneI look forward to seeing that.
Alicia, over to you any finalthoughts on on what we've been
(40:56):
talking today as we get ready toexit the podcast.
Dr. Alicia Rossiter (41:01):
So sure, I think, you know, I know the
overarching focus of this wasrecruitment, but I think when we
think about recruitment,retention and recruitment are in
are interconnected. The more weservice members that we reach,
we we retain, the less we haveto recruit. And this is really
important, going back to theearlier conversation about the
(41:21):
Department of Defense budget, wespend anywhere from hundreds of
$1,000 to millions of dollarseducating and training our
service members. That's reallydependent on whatever their AFSC
or MOS is, but we spend a lot ofmoney. A lot of the Department
of Defense budget is focused ontraining of our soldier, sailor,
airman, Marine and guardians.
And when you think about this,it's critically important,
(41:45):
because, as I mentioned earlier,the number one predictor of
someone staying in the militaryis the satisfaction of the at
home spouse. So I think we needto really start to focus more on
the military family, especiallywhen you think that 50% of those
who served and the active dutyreserve and National Guard are
married, and approximately 40%have children. We have got to
(42:06):
take a more holistic,comprehensive view of the
military family. We can nolonger silo them and, you know,
address each member of thefamily's needs separately. We
really need to look at thosewraparound services and supports
to be able to address the needsof the entire military family.
You know, as it pertains tosupports during deployment and
(42:29):
relocation cycles, spousalemployment, you know, school
accessibility for our militaryconnected children and
collectively, health care accessand continuity for the entire
military family.
Jim Cardoso (42:45):
Yeah, you know, I look forward to seeing if in the
future, you know, you know,there's discussion about the
recruiting crisis, and I likehow you link recruiting and
retention. I do look forward tosee if we see any mind, you
know, adjustments in how we someof the services and capability
provide the military families,and see if that, see if some of
(43:07):
the things you're talking aboutright now do you start to seep
into the Department of Defense'spolicies to address, to then
acknowledge and then address therecruiting crisis. We'll see.
We'll see if they're listening,and we'll see if these, if these
things start to come around, andrecruiting starts to go up so
but just want to say first inthe studio, Dr Guido Rossi from
(43:32):
GNSI Research Fellow, thanks forjoining us today. It was a
pleasure. Thank you and Alicia,thank you as well for joining us
from the USF College of Nursing.
Great to hear from you again.
Great to link back up with youagain. Look forward to talking
more with you in the future.
Thank you very much. I want tothank doctors, Guido Rossi and
Alicia rostor for joining us onthis episode of at the boundary
(43:53):
their spotlight on militaryrecruitment and retention and
the threat it poses to nationalsecurity is a stark warning to
our civilian and militaryleaders. Been a pleasure having
them both here today, next weekon at the boundary, we'll have
on the show retired Marine CorpsColonel Seth Folsom, his 28 year
career in the Corps led him toIraq and Afghanistan during some
(44:14):
of the most tumultuous years inthose countries. He's the author
of a new book published thismonth by the US Naval Institute.
Press called nothing here worthdying for, Task Force lion in
Iraq, our Executive Directorhere at GNSI, retired Marine
Corps General Frank McKenzie, isa fan of the book and commented
on it. His articulate andinsightful book adds to the
(44:35):
considerable literature aboutMarines and small unit actions.
This is a book all Marinesshould read. Folsom will be our
guest next week on at theboundary. Be sure to join us.
Thanks for listening today. Ifyou like the podcast, please
share with your colleagues andnetwork. You can follow GNSI on
our LinkedIn X accounts at USF,underscore GNSI And check out
(44:55):
our website as well@usf.edu,Slash GNSI, where you can also
subscribe to our monthlynewsletter
that's going to wrap up thisepisode of at the boundary. Each
new episode will feature globaland national security issues
(45:17):
we've found to be insightful,intriguing, fascinating, maybe
controversial, but overall, justworth talking about. I'm Jim
Cardoso, and we'll see you atthe boundary.
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