November 11, 2025 • 8 mins
shared a meme of the Twin Towers asking, “Has New York forgotten?” Mike Smithgall digs into what that reaction says about us.
He opens with a story that sounds like 9/11—but isn’t—and exposes the double standard in how we label religious violence. From the Oklahoma City bombing to modern Islamophobia, this Mike Drop looks at how fear and familiarity shape our bias.
Mike explains why, as an atheist, he’s not on either side of the Muslim–Christian divide, why both faiths harbor good people and dangerous extremists, and why only secular government protects everyone.
His closing line says it all: “Terror has no religion. Fear only thinks it does. And when fear decides who we should hate, truth and reason don’t stand a chance.”
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
I had just turned 25 a few days earlier.
(00:03):
I had started a new job thatmonth, and I was at the gym in
my new office building when thenews came on.
Extremists had blown up abuilding.
At first, no one knew how manydead, only that there would be
far too many.
And in that moment, terrorismstopped being something that
happened in faraway countries.
(00:23):
It was happening right here athome.
Reporters said the terroristshated the U.S.
government and had ties toreligious extremist groups.
Now, did that mean that everyonein their religion or anyone that
looked like them was a terroristtoo?
No, of course not.
But I guess you could forgivepeople for thinking that way.
(00:44):
And now, years later, I see thatthe mayor of that same city, the
city that suffered such aterrible loss, follows the same
religion as those terrorists.
And what kind of message doesthat send?
Isn't that a slap in the face tothe people who lost friends and
family that day?
That day, April 19th, 1995, theday that Timothy McVay blew up
(01:08):
the Oklahoma City FederalBuilding.
Have we learned nothing?
Should we mistrust everyone wholooks like him or prays like him
or votes like him?
Do we have a patriotic duty todistrust those people?
I don't know.
I'm I'm just asking thequestions.
(01:28):
I'm Mike SmithGall, and this istoday's Mic Drop.
Now you probably assumed I wastalking about 9-11, and most
people would.
The language, the imagery, theemotion, it all points there.
That assumption is the point.
When we hear extremist andreligion and terrorism, our
minds go to a single faith,Islam.
(01:51):
We don't picture TimothyMcVeigh, a white Christian man
who bombed a federal buildingand killed 168 people, including
children.
We remember one kind of tragedyvividly, but we treat the other
like a historical footnote.
I bet a lot of people listeningto this don't even know who he
was.
It could be the first time somepeople who have even heard of
(02:14):
Oklahoma City as a bombing.
The difference says everythingabout how we process faith,
fear, and familiarity.
After 9-11, suspicion landed onmillions of Muslims who had
absolutely nothing to do withthe attacks.
People lost their jobs, theywere detained without cause, or
simply stopped being treated asAmericans.
(02:36):
The message was we can't tellthe good ones from the bad ones.
When McVeigh bombed OklahomaCity, no one said we can't tell
the good Christians from the badones.
No one proposed backgroundchecks for Bible study groups or
surveillance for militia-mindedchurches.
We called McVeigh an extremist,but we didn't call Christianity
(02:57):
an extremist religion.
That's the asymmetry.
When violence comes from someonefamiliar, we isolate the blame.
When it comes from someoneunfamiliar, we expand it to an
entire population.
Now, 25 years later, New YorkCity has just selected its first
(03:18):
Muslim mayor, Zoran Mamdani.
And I'll be honest, I don't livein New York.
I don't follow their politicsvery closely.
From what I've seen over thelast few months, he seems to
have come out of nowhere.
But there's no doubt he's nowone of the most recognized
politicians in the country.
And right after his win, socialmedia lit up.
(03:39):
One meme in particular caught myeye.
It was shared by former mayorRudy Giuliani.
The image showed the Twin Towersfailing with a statement, New
York, you forgot.
The message was clear.
Because Mamdani is a Muslim, hiselection somehow dishonors the
memory of 9-11.
(04:00):
That meme and the peoplespreading it are what I'm
talking about today.
Because that response says lessabout the new mayor and more
about how selective our nationalmemory has become.
And as I mentioned, I don'treally know that much about
Zoran Mamdani, other than a fewheadlines.
I'm neither a fan nor adetractor.
(04:20):
I'm indifferent to hisintentions as a New York mayor.
If you have a non-religiousreason to disagree with him,
something about his policy orleadership, that's fair.
But if your dislike or evenhatred is mostly about his
religion, that deserves somereflection.
We've learned to equate Muslimswith terrorists while giving a
(04:40):
pass to extremists who look morelike the majority.
That's not justice.
That's prejudice with patrioticbranding.
This is how comfort shapesjudgment.
When the dominant religioncommits violence, we call it
tragedy.
When the minority religion does,we call it a threat.
The majority faith getsinvisibility.
(05:02):
The minority faith getssuspicion.
The majority's extremists arelone wolves.
The minorities are cells.
The language shifts, but thebias stays.
Media and politicians, they knowthis.
They sell fear because fearmotivates.
And identity is an easy handleto grab.
But intolerance is not strength.
(05:23):
It's insecurity dressed up aspatriotism.
Now I should be clear aboutsomething.
As an atheist, I'm not on eitherside of this Muslim-Christian
debate.
Those two faiths are closer toone another than either one is
to me.
Both have good, warm-heartedpeople who just want to live
their lives, raise their kids,and do right by one another.
(05:45):
And both have extremists whotwist their holy books to
justify violence, oppression,and intolerance.
If left unchecked, both wouldgladly turn government into
theocracy, with their version ofreligion at the center.
There are two sides of the samecoin.
I'm on a different coinaltogether.
(06:05):
And before anyone calls menaive, I know the data.
In today's world, Muslimextremists are responsible for
more acts of religiouslymotivated violence.
That's true.
But this isn't a scoreboard.
Christians don't get to resteasy because their history
includes crusades, inquisitions,witch hunts, and church-backed
segregation and slavery.
(06:26):
Every religion that fuses itselfwith political power ends up
producing extremists who try tolegislate beliefs.
That's why we separate churchand state.
When government becomes aninstrument of faith, it stops
being government, it becomesenforcement.
So if you want to test forleadership, make it civic, not
(06:47):
sacred.
Judge officials by competency,honesty, fairness, not by their
prayers.
Now, if hearing my opening madeyou think Muslim, that's proof
the bias still lives in us.
We don't mean for it to, but itdoes.
We've been trained for decadesto react to certain words,
(07:07):
certain faces, certain prayers.
And that's why memes likeGiuliani's spread so easily.
They don't rely on reason, theyrely on reflex.
Fear is always faster thanthought.
I know this episode will bringpushback.
Every time I talk about religionand intolerance, the extremists
crawl out of the comments.
(07:28):
I'll get called names, I'll beaccused of siding with
terrorists or attacking faith.
That's what happens when peoplecan't separate ideas from
identity.
And you're going to have toforgive me if I don't engage
every extremist who shows up toshout.
But if you want an honestdiscussion, even if we disagree,
I'm up for that because that'show adults talk.
(07:51):
And that's how we move forward.
So what does moving forwardactually require?
It requires seeing the worldclearly.
It means understanding that whenfear decides who we should hate,
truth and reason don't stand achance.
Terror has no religion.
Fear only thinks it does.
All right.
Again, I'm Mike Smithco.
(08:12):
I'll catch you on the next one.
Thanks for tuning in.
I really hope you enjoyed that.
If you have a question for me orany of our guests, make sure you
drop a comment.
We'd love to hear from you.
Hey, and do me a favor like andsubscribe.
That really helps us out andhelps us bring you more
conversations from beyond theleague.
And in the meantime, take careand remember reason and
compassion go very long way.
I had just turned 25 a few days earlier.
(00:03):
I had started a new job thatmonth, and I was at the gym in
my new office building when thenews came on.
Extremists had blown up abuilding.
At first, no one knew how manydead, only that there would be
far too many.
And in that moment, terrorismstopped being something that
happened in faraway countries.
(00:23):
It was happening right here athome.
Reporters said the terroristshated the U.S.
government and had ties toreligious extremist groups.
Now, did that mean that everyonein their religion or anyone that
looked like them was a terroristtoo?
No, of course not.
But I guess you could forgivepeople for thinking that way.
(00:44):
And now, years later, I see thatthe mayor of that same city, the
city that suffered such aterrible loss, follows the same
religion as those terrorists.
And what kind of message doesthat send?
Isn't that a slap in the face tothe people who lost friends and
family that day?
That day, April 19th, 1995, theday that Timothy McVay blew up
(01:08):
the Oklahoma City FederalBuilding.
Have we learned nothing?
Should we mistrust everyone wholooks like him or prays like him
or votes like him?
Do we have a patriotic duty todistrust those people?
I don't know.
I'm I'm just asking thequestions.
(01:28):
I'm Mike SmithGall, and this istoday's Mic Drop.
Now you probably assumed I wastalking about 9-11, and most
people would.
The language, the imagery, theemotion, it all points there.
That assumption is the point.
When we hear extremist andreligion and terrorism, our
minds go to a single faith,Islam.
(01:51):
We don't picture TimothyMcVeigh, a white Christian man
who bombed a federal buildingand killed 168 people, including
children.
We remember one kind of tragedyvividly, but we treat the other
like a historical footnote.
I bet a lot of people listeningto this don't even know who he
was.
It could be the first time somepeople who have even heard of
(02:14):
Oklahoma City as a bombing.
The difference says everythingabout how we process faith,
fear, and familiarity.
After 9-11, suspicion landed onmillions of Muslims who had
absolutely nothing to do withthe attacks.
People lost their jobs, theywere detained without cause, or
simply stopped being treated asAmericans.
(02:36):
The message was we can't tellthe good ones from the bad ones.
When McVeigh bombed OklahomaCity, no one said we can't tell
the good Christians from the badones.
No one proposed backgroundchecks for Bible study groups or
surveillance for militia-mindedchurches.
We called McVeigh an extremist,but we didn't call Christianity
(02:57):
an extremist religion.
That's the asymmetry.
When violence comes from someonefamiliar, we isolate the blame.
When it comes from someoneunfamiliar, we expand it to an
entire population.
Now, 25 years later, New YorkCity has just selected its first
(03:18):
Muslim mayor, Zoran Mamdani.
And I'll be honest, I don't livein New York.
I don't follow their politicsvery closely.
From what I've seen over thelast few months, he seems to
have come out of nowhere.
But there's no doubt he's nowone of the most recognized
politicians in the country.
And right after his win, socialmedia lit up.
(03:39):
One meme in particular caught myeye.
It was shared by former mayorRudy Giuliani.
The image showed the Twin Towersfailing with a statement, New
York, you forgot.
The message was clear.
Because Mamdani is a Muslim, hiselection somehow dishonors the
memory of 9-11.
(04:00):
That meme and the peoplespreading it are what I'm
talking about today.
Because that response says lessabout the new mayor and more
about how selective our nationalmemory has become.
And as I mentioned, I don'treally know that much about
Zoran Mamdani, other than a fewheadlines.
I'm neither a fan nor adetractor.
(04:20):
I'm indifferent to hisintentions as a New York mayor.
If you have a non-religiousreason to disagree with him,
something about his policy orleadership, that's fair.
But if your dislike or evenhatred is mostly about his
religion, that deserves somereflection.
We've learned to equate Muslimswith terrorists while giving a
(04:40):
pass to extremists who look morelike the majority.
That's not justice.
That's prejudice with patrioticbranding.
This is how comfort shapesjudgment.
When the dominant religioncommits violence, we call it
tragedy.
When the minority religion does,we call it a threat.
The majority faith getsinvisibility.
(05:02):
The minority faith getssuspicion.
The majority's extremists arelone wolves.
The minorities are cells.
The language shifts, but thebias stays.
Media and politicians, they knowthis.
They sell fear because fearmotivates.
And identity is an easy handleto grab.
But intolerance is not strength.
(05:23):
It's insecurity dressed up aspatriotism.
Now I should be clear aboutsomething.
As an atheist, I'm not on eitherside of this Muslim-Christian
debate.
Those two faiths are closer toone another than either one is
to me.
Both have good, warm-heartedpeople who just want to live
their lives, raise their kids,and do right by one another.
(05:45):
And both have extremists whotwist their holy books to
justify violence, oppression,and intolerance.
If left unchecked, both wouldgladly turn government into
theocracy, with their version ofreligion at the center.
There are two sides of the samecoin.
I'm on a different coinaltogether.
(06:05):
And before anyone calls menaive, I know the data.
In today's world, Muslimextremists are responsible for
more acts of religiouslymotivated violence.
That's true.
But this isn't a scoreboard.
Christians don't get to resteasy because their history
includes crusades, inquisitions,witch hunts, and church-backed
segregation and slavery.
(06:26):
Every religion that fuses itselfwith political power ends up
producing extremists who try tolegislate beliefs.
That's why we separate churchand state.
When government becomes aninstrument of faith, it stops
being government, it becomesenforcement.
So if you want to test forleadership, make it civic, not
(06:47):
sacred.
Judge officials by competency,honesty, fairness, not by their
prayers.
Now, if hearing my opening madeyou think Muslim, that's proof
the bias still lives in us.
We don't mean for it to, but itdoes.
We've been trained for decadesto react to certain words,
(07:07):
certain faces, certain prayers.
And that's why memes likeGiuliani's spread so easily.
They don't rely on reason, theyrely on reflex.
Fear is always faster thanthought.
I know this episode will bringpushback.
Every time I talk about religionand intolerance, the extremists
crawl out of the comments.
(07:28):
I'll get called names, I'll beaccused of siding with
terrorists or attacking faith.
That's what happens when peoplecan't separate ideas from
identity.
And you're going to have toforgive me if I don't engage
every extremist who shows up toshout.
But if you want an honestdiscussion, even if we disagree,
I'm up for that because that'show adults talk.
(07:51):
And that's how we move forward.
So what does moving forwardactually require?
It requires seeing the worldclearly.
It means understanding that whenfear decides who we should hate,
truth and reason don't stand achance.
Terror has no religion.
Fear only thinks it does.
All right.
Again, I'm Mike Smithco.
(08:12):
I'll catch you on the next one.
Thanks for tuning in.
I really hope you enjoyed that.
If you have a question for me orany of our guests, make sure you
drop a comment.
We'd love to hear from you.
Hey, and do me a favor like andsubscribe.
That really helps us out andhelps us bring you more
conversations from beyond theleague.
And in the meantime, take careand remember reason and
compassion go very long way.
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