November 25, 2025 • 8 mins
Mike Smithgall explores the uncomfortable reality facing moderate Christians in America. As Christian Nationalism rises, many believers try to stay "above the fray," claiming the extremists don't represent them. Mike argues that this "Glass Bottom Boat" mentality is failing.
Using the logic often applied to police misconduct ("just a few bad apples"), Mike challenges the faithful to take responsibility for their institution. If the "good" Christians don't stand up to the "bad" ones, the whole system is complicit. An episode about integrity, reputation, and why an atheist is fighting to save the soul of the church.
Engagement:
- Viewer Question: "Do you think moderate Christians have a responsibility to publicly denounce Christian Nationalism, or is it unfair to expect them to police their own group?"
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
I heard a joke once about a man riding through a
sewer in a glass bottom boat.
He's drifting through the muckand he's looking down the sludge
beneath the glass, and he tellshimself, sure, I might be in
this shit, but I'm clearly aboveit.
It's a funny image.
And it also is the currentoperating strategy of the
moderate American Christian.
(00:20):
Right now we are watching apolitical movement try to drag
this country towards theocracy.
And we see laws being written toforce scripture into schools and
pulpits turning into campaignHQs.
And the people I know, thepeople I love who are decent,
faithful Christians, look atthis Christian nationalist
movement and they say, that'snot real Christianity.
(00:42):
That's not me.
And they think because theyaren't actively shoveling the
sludge that they aren't part ofthe sewer.
But here's the hard truth.
I need to tell my believingfriends today.
You are in the boat.
The smell is getting on you.
And if you don't start paddling,you're gonna go down with the
rest of them.
All right, thanks for tuning in.
(01:03):
I'm Mike Smithgull, theunelected mayor of Atheistville,
and this is today's Mic Drop.
I never thought I'd be the onesitting here defending the
reputation of Christianity.
Almost everyone I have everknown or loved is a Christian.
My family, my friends, thepeople I grew up with, these are
good people.
(01:24):
They view their faith as asource of comfort and charity
and personal guidance, and Isupport their right to believe
it.
I may not share their belief,but I will fiercely defend their
right to hold it.
But right now, the labelChristian is being hijacked.
It's being trademarked by apolitical faction that doesn't
care about charity or comfort.
(01:44):
They care about power.
They care about dominion.
And they're rewriting thedefinition of your faith to mean
compliance with a specificpolitical agenda.
And the awkward reality is thatI, the guy who doesn't believe
in God, seems to be moreconcerned about the sanctity of
your chore, your church than youare.
And I'm out here saying, hey,maybe don't use the Bible as a
(02:06):
bludgeon.
Meanwhile, good Christians aresitting quietly in the pews,
hoping that if they ignore theextremists, the extremists would
just go away.
Let's start with the logic thatwe use for other institutions.
When a police officer abusestheir power, we instantly hear
the immediate defense of it'sjust one bad apple.
Don't let the actions of oneruin the reputation of the
(02:29):
force.
When a priest or a pastor iscaught in a horrific scandal, we
hear the same thing.
It's not the church.
That's just a bad actor.
So don't paint the wholeinstitution with that brush.
I understand that instinct.
It's defensive.
You want to protect the thingthat you love.
But here's the other side ofthat coin.
If the good cops and the goodChristians do not mount a
(02:51):
vigorous, loud, and publiceffort to oust those bad actors,
you're telling them that theiractions are okay.
Silence is not neutrality.
Silence is consent.
And if you're a good Christian,and if you see someone using
your cross to justify hate orexclusion or this or the
dismantling of democracy, youropposition should be louder than
(03:14):
mine, much louder.
Because when I criticizeChristian nationalism, I'm
easily dismissed.
I'm just the atheist guy.
Of course Mike hates it.
He hates God.
That's what they say.
But you, you have credibility.
You have standing.
And if you stood up and said,no, this is not what my faith
stands for, people would have tolisten.
(03:35):
But right now, the silence fromthe moderate pews is deafening.
Let's go back to that glassbottom boat.
I think many moderate Christiansfeel that if they engage with
Christian nationalists, if theyget down in the mud to fight
them, then they will dirtythemselves.
They feel that standing up tothe bad actors somehow muddies
their own testimony.
They prefer the high road.
(03:56):
But the high road doesn't existin a sewer.
By refusing to separateyourselves, you are allowing the
public to group you together.
When the world sees Christiansbanning books, or Christians
stripping rights away fromwomen, or Christians calling for
the execution of politicalrivals, they don't see the
nuance.
(04:16):
They don't see the glass bottomof your boat.
They just see the sewer.
You think you are staying abovethe fray, but in reality, you're
letting the extremists paintyour house.
And let me tell you that staindoesn't wash out.
All right, quick pause.
If you haven't subscribed yet, Iwould love to have you join the
community here at Atheistville.
We continue to grow and we arebuilding a space for honest
(04:38):
conversation about faith, aboutdoubt, about reason.
And subscribing is absolutelyfree.
And it helps more people findconversations and discussions
just like this.
And it keeps the projectgrowing.
And I want to ask you to do uhone more thing: leave a comment.
I read every single one of yourcomments, whether and whether we
agree or disagree, I willabsolutely answer you
(04:59):
respectfully because I do valuethat open dialogue.
And your comments don't justhelp shape the conversation,
they also show the algorithmthat this is a community worth
exploring and worthrecommending.
And reach back to your believerdays and become an evangelist
for the show.
Tell someone else about the showif you think that they may like
(05:19):
it or use this something in theshow as a way to get the
discussion going.
It really helps and it's it'sthe it creates situations where
we can get back to conversationand not shouting matches.
Okay, let's get back to it.
Now, I'm not a theologian, butI've read the book, and it seems
to me that there's a massivedisconnect between the
Christianity of the nationalistand the Christianity of the
(05:42):
gospels.
Christian nationalism is atheology of power.
It's about seizing the levers ofgovernment to force others to
live by your rules.
And it's insecure.
It requires laws to validate it.
The Christianity my friendsbelieve in, the one that I
respect, even if I don't shareit, is a theology of grace and
it's voluntary.
(06:03):
You don't need a Senate vote tobe valid.
When you allow the nationalistto speak for you, you're trading
grace for power.
And historically speaking,whenever the church has grasped
for political power, it has losttheir moral authority every
single time.
By fighting against Christiannationalism, I'm actually
fighting for the purity of yourchurch.
(06:25):
And I'm fighting for thegovernment that leaves you alone
to worship how you see fit.
And I'm fighting for a societywhere your faith is a choice,
not a mandate.
And I have to ask, why betweenyou and I am I the only one
fighting for this?
So this is my challenge to thegood Christians watching this.
Stop riding in the glass bottomboat, smash the glass, get out
(06:47):
of that boat.
You need to be the ones that sayno when a politician says they
are running to restore Christianvalues by hurting immigrants or
women or gay kids.
You need to be the ones that saythis is not Christian when a law
is proposed to force prayer inschool.
You need to be the ones that sayfaith must be free, not forced.
It's not enough to be privatelygood while your institution is
(07:10):
being publicly corrupted.
You can't claim the institutionis good if you refuse to take
out the trash.
And right now, the trash,unfortunately, is piling up and
it's blocking the exit and it'sstinking up the entire place.
I don't want to see the people Ilove lumped in with the people
who hate.
I don't want to see the faith itgives my mother comfort used as
(07:31):
a weapon to hurt my neighbors.
But I can't save your reputationfor you.
You have to do that yourself.
You have to decide if you wantto be the captain of the boat or
just another piece of debrisfloating in the current.
All right, so that's my twocents, unblessed and unfiltered.
As always, agree or disagree,that's what I got for you today.
I'm Mike Smithgall.
(07:51):
Thanks for tuning in, and I'llcatch you on the next one.
Hey, I really hope you enjoyedtoday's show.
Before you go, make sure youlike and subscribe to the show
and tell a friend.
It really helps us grow.
If you'd like more great contentfrom us, be sure to check us out
right here on YouTube.
You can also find us whereveryou get your podcasts, and check
out our blog atatheistville.com.
Until we talk again, rememberreason and compassion go a very
(08:15):
long way.
I heard a joke once about a man riding through a
sewer in a glass bottom boat.
He's drifting through the muckand he's looking down the sludge
beneath the glass, and he tellshimself, sure, I might be in
this shit, but I'm clearly aboveit.
It's a funny image.
And it also is the currentoperating strategy of the
moderate American Christian.
(00:20):
Right now we are watching apolitical movement try to drag
this country towards theocracy.
And we see laws being written toforce scripture into schools and
pulpits turning into campaignHQs.
And the people I know, thepeople I love who are decent,
faithful Christians, look atthis Christian nationalist
movement and they say, that'snot real Christianity.
(00:42):
That's not me.
And they think because theyaren't actively shoveling the
sludge that they aren't part ofthe sewer.
But here's the hard truth.
I need to tell my believingfriends today.
You are in the boat.
The smell is getting on you.
And if you don't start paddling,you're gonna go down with the
rest of them.
All right, thanks for tuning in.
(01:03):
I'm Mike Smithgull, theunelected mayor of Atheistville,
and this is today's Mic Drop.
I never thought I'd be the onesitting here defending the
reputation of Christianity.
Almost everyone I have everknown or loved is a Christian.
My family, my friends, thepeople I grew up with, these are
good people.
(01:24):
They view their faith as asource of comfort and charity
and personal guidance, and Isupport their right to believe
it.
I may not share their belief,but I will fiercely defend their
right to hold it.
But right now, the labelChristian is being hijacked.
It's being trademarked by apolitical faction that doesn't
care about charity or comfort.
(01:44):
They care about power.
They care about dominion.
And they're rewriting thedefinition of your faith to mean
compliance with a specificpolitical agenda.
And the awkward reality is thatI, the guy who doesn't believe
in God, seems to be moreconcerned about the sanctity of
your chore, your church than youare.
And I'm out here saying, hey,maybe don't use the Bible as a
(02:06):
bludgeon.
Meanwhile, good Christians aresitting quietly in the pews,
hoping that if they ignore theextremists, the extremists would
just go away.
Let's start with the logic thatwe use for other institutions.
When a police officer abusestheir power, we instantly hear
the immediate defense of it'sjust one bad apple.
Don't let the actions of oneruin the reputation of the
(02:29):
force.
When a priest or a pastor iscaught in a horrific scandal, we
hear the same thing.
It's not the church.
That's just a bad actor.
So don't paint the wholeinstitution with that brush.
I understand that instinct.
It's defensive.
You want to protect the thingthat you love.
But here's the other side ofthat coin.
If the good cops and the goodChristians do not mount a
(02:51):
vigorous, loud, and publiceffort to oust those bad actors,
you're telling them that theiractions are okay.
Silence is not neutrality.
Silence is consent.
And if you're a good Christian,and if you see someone using
your cross to justify hate orexclusion or this or the
dismantling of democracy, youropposition should be louder than
(03:14):
mine, much louder.
Because when I criticizeChristian nationalism, I'm
easily dismissed.
I'm just the atheist guy.
Of course Mike hates it.
He hates God.
That's what they say.
But you, you have credibility.
You have standing.
And if you stood up and said,no, this is not what my faith
stands for, people would have tolisten.
(03:35):
But right now, the silence fromthe moderate pews is deafening.
Let's go back to that glassbottom boat.
I think many moderate Christiansfeel that if they engage with
Christian nationalists, if theyget down in the mud to fight
them, then they will dirtythemselves.
They feel that standing up tothe bad actors somehow muddies
their own testimony.
They prefer the high road.
(03:56):
But the high road doesn't existin a sewer.
By refusing to separateyourselves, you are allowing the
public to group you together.
When the world sees Christiansbanning books, or Christians
stripping rights away fromwomen, or Christians calling for
the execution of politicalrivals, they don't see the
nuance.
(04:16):
They don't see the glass bottomof your boat.
They just see the sewer.
You think you are staying abovethe fray, but in reality, you're
letting the extremists paintyour house.
And let me tell you that staindoesn't wash out.
All right, quick pause.
If you haven't subscribed yet, Iwould love to have you join the
community here at Atheistville.
We continue to grow and we arebuilding a space for honest
(04:38):
conversation about faith, aboutdoubt, about reason.
And subscribing is absolutelyfree.
And it helps more people findconversations and discussions
just like this.
And it keeps the projectgrowing.
And I want to ask you to do uhone more thing: leave a comment.
I read every single one of yourcomments, whether and whether we
agree or disagree, I willabsolutely answer you
(04:59):
respectfully because I do valuethat open dialogue.
And your comments don't justhelp shape the conversation,
they also show the algorithmthat this is a community worth
exploring and worthrecommending.
And reach back to your believerdays and become an evangelist
for the show.
Tell someone else about the showif you think that they may like
(05:19):
it or use this something in theshow as a way to get the
discussion going.
It really helps and it's it'sthe it creates situations where
we can get back to conversationand not shouting matches.
Okay, let's get back to it.
Now, I'm not a theologian, butI've read the book, and it seems
to me that there's a massivedisconnect between the
Christianity of the nationalistand the Christianity of the
(05:42):
gospels.
Christian nationalism is atheology of power.
It's about seizing the levers ofgovernment to force others to
live by your rules.
And it's insecure.
It requires laws to validate it.
The Christianity my friendsbelieve in, the one that I
respect, even if I don't shareit, is a theology of grace and
it's voluntary.
(06:03):
You don't need a Senate vote tobe valid.
When you allow the nationalistto speak for you, you're trading
grace for power.
And historically speaking,whenever the church has grasped
for political power, it has losttheir moral authority every
single time.
By fighting against Christiannationalism, I'm actually
fighting for the purity of yourchurch.
(06:25):
And I'm fighting for thegovernment that leaves you alone
to worship how you see fit.
And I'm fighting for a societywhere your faith is a choice,
not a mandate.
And I have to ask, why betweenyou and I am I the only one
fighting for this?
So this is my challenge to thegood Christians watching this.
Stop riding in the glass bottomboat, smash the glass, get out
(06:47):
of that boat.
You need to be the ones that sayno when a politician says they
are running to restore Christianvalues by hurting immigrants or
women or gay kids.
You need to be the ones that saythis is not Christian when a law
is proposed to force prayer inschool.
You need to be the ones that sayfaith must be free, not forced.
It's not enough to be privatelygood while your institution is
(07:10):
being publicly corrupted.
You can't claim the institutionis good if you refuse to take
out the trash.
And right now, the trash,unfortunately, is piling up and
it's blocking the exit and it'sstinking up the entire place.
I don't want to see the people Ilove lumped in with the people
who hate.
I don't want to see the faith itgives my mother comfort used as
(07:31):
a weapon to hurt my neighbors.
But I can't save your reputationfor you.
You have to do that yourself.
You have to decide if you wantto be the captain of the boat or
just another piece of debrisfloating in the current.
All right, so that's my twocents, unblessed and unfiltered.
As always, agree or disagree,that's what I got for you today.
I'm Mike Smithgall.
(07:51):
Thanks for tuning in, and I'llcatch you on the next one.
Hey, I really hope you enjoyedtoday's show.
Before you go, make sure youlike and subscribe to the show
and tell a friend.
It really helps us grow.
If you'd like more great contentfrom us, be sure to check us out
right here on YouTube.
You can also find us whereveryou get your podcasts, and check
out our blog atatheistville.com.
Until we talk again, rememberreason and compassion go a very
(08:15):
long way.
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