July 3, 2025 • 47 mins
Full Update on everything from the announcement of a plea agreement, what we've learned, and the hearing outcome. -- Subscribe to Autopsyofacrime.substack.com for additional case coverage and episode source material. -- Thank you BetterHelp for sponsoring this episode. Listeners can save 10% on their first month by visiting BetterHelp.com/Terin
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
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That's Better Help. HELP dot com forward slash
TERIN. Hello Clarice, how are you guys
doing? I know it has been a while since
(02:33):
I uploaded a new podcast episode.
My apologies. Life happens.
I have a toddler and a wild dog running through my home, and
sometimes it can be really hard to get the quiet space needed in
order to record. But we are back and a lot has
(02:55):
happened. As you may know, Brian Koburger
at Ultimately the Final Hour accepted a plea deal for the
murders of Kaylee Gonkalves, Zanna Karnodel, Ethan Chapin and
Madison Morgan. So we're going to rewind a
(03:17):
little bit. Let's catch up on from the
moment that this news dropped. It was shocking.
Some of the families have spokenout.
They were blindsided by this. The family of Kaylee Gonkalves
very much, it was against a pleadeal.
They wanted to see the trial through.
(03:37):
They wanted a jury of their peers to decide the fate of
Brian Koburger. And it's been a lot.
The families, the media, all of us really who have been
following this case were shockedto find out that Monday the
state had reached a plea agreement with Brian Koeberger
(03:59):
and his defense team. So like I said, I'm going to
rewind a little bit from when wefound out this information and
then we are going to get into every single detail of that plea
hearing that occurred yesterday.So as we knew, this plea hearing
(04:22):
was scheduled and set to take place on Wednesday, July 2nd.
It was 11 AM Mountain Time, 1:00PM Eastern Time.
And there was the potential thatJudge Hitler could have rejected
this. The Goncalves family is and was
(04:45):
asking for support. They were calling for the public
to reach out to the court to judge Hitler and essentially beg
and plead that this plea deal not be accepted.
The chances seemed slim, but it was possible.
(05:10):
The news of the plea deal truly sent shock waves and the court
date was looming. And then we began finding out
new details because people who have never spoken before decided
to do interviews, mainly Doctor Catherine Ramsland.
(05:34):
If you recall, she was Brian Koburger's professor at the
Sales University. She is also a serial killer
expert. She has done interviews with Ted
Bundy and wrote a book regardingBTK.
So it appears she was going to be a witness at trial.
(05:57):
And since news of a plea agreement was circulating, she
agreed to give her first ever interview regarding Brian
Koburger. She went on to News Nation with
Brian Enton. And then we also have Vicki
Ward, who is an author. She has written a new book about
the Idaho case. My understanding is that it
(06:20):
primarily focuses on the victims.
And she has also been sharing details that she has unearthed
through investigating for this book.
Hunter Johnson, Ethan Chapin's best friend, will also be a part
of an upcoming docu series on Amazon Prime that will be
(06:43):
released on July 11th. And he has also sat down with
Good Morning America. And he gave some new insight on
that 911 call for an unconsciousperson.
And it was never as strange as it seemed.
Media outlets dubbed the plea a deal with the devil.
(07:04):
You know, it's human nature to want to make sense of something
so horrible. The need to know why, even
though no reason will ever be justified.
We have to wonder how sick does someone have to be to think of
(07:30):
doing something like this, let alone actually do it.
The cruel, harsh truth is that there is evil in this world.
They walk among us and even withthe most trained eye, they can
go unnoticed. So let's get into first this
(07:52):
plea agreement. And this is things that we knew
as this hearing was approaching,things most of us were
wondering. So without a doubt, the plea
agreement is and was controversial.
It was shocking, possibly havingmore people against it than for
(08:13):
it. The families as well seemed
quite divided. It has been shared that Madison
Morgan's family, or at least hermom was in support of the plea
deal, as well as Ethan Chapin's family.
They were in support of the pleadeal.
And then we have the Goncalves and Cronodal families who
(08:35):
strongly opposed a plea. So while thinking about this and
wondering, you know, what's going to happen should.
And now since a plea deal has been accepted, there is nothing
(08:56):
that will prevent Brian Koburgerfrom doing interviews or even
writing a book about these crimes, brutal and horrific
murders he is accused of committing and has now pleaded
guilty to. We can officially say Brian
Koburger murdered Madison Morgan, Ethan Chapin, Kelly
(09:22):
Gonzalez and Zanna Kernodle. He is a monster.
Regarding the plea, there was nocall.
There was no meeting. There was no discussion on terms
of the potential plea agreement.There was no consideration.
(09:45):
Prosecutors sent the families a letter via e-mail.
How do we live in a world where an accused quadruple murderer
has more rights than the victim's families?
And it's also worth noting that the gag order is not immediately
(10:06):
lifted. It will require a hearing of its
own, potentially. And there is a chance that we
will never know any more than wealready do.
My personal opinion Coburger will seek attention and fame.
It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but it will
(10:30):
happen. The newest revelations first
coming from the interview with Doctor Ramslin.
She again spoke publicly for thefirst time and shared that this
is the first time she's speakingbecause she was set to be a
witness at trial. Ramslin stated that she never
had a concerning interaction with Koburger.
(10:52):
She called him respectful and intense.
She went on to tell Brian Enton with News Nation that she has
thought about the possibility ofinterviewing and studying Brian
Koeberger for 2 1/2 years. So if Koeberger is willing to,
(11:13):
she will most definitely do it. Doctor Ramslin also added that
when the news of his arrest broke, she gave him the benefit
of the doubt. She awaited the alleged alibi
and however, once released, she says the alibi, you know, star
(11:34):
gazing, driving around all alone.
Doctor Ramslin says that the alibi was not an alibi at all,
not by legal definition, and Co Burger would have known that due
to his studies and education. And then we have Vicki Ward.
(11:56):
She, as I mentioned, has authored a book that will be
coming out. She has shared that last summer
Michael Koburger, Brian Koburger's father, told a friend
that what happened at 1122 King Rd. was drug related and that
Brian would be exonerated. Which I can't help but think of
(12:21):
those rumors that were swirling near the beginning of all of
this that it was drug related. Michael Koburger reiterated that
last summer to a friend and Vicki Ward, by all accounts,
seems to have done very extensive research for her book.
She has visited Koburger's hometown, spoke with the friends
(12:44):
who came over that morning to 1122 King Rd. the friends that
Dylan and Bethany called the surviving roommates, and she has
developed close relationships tomany of the friends and families
of the victims. She called Brian Koburger's
(13:05):
hometown one of the most depressing places she's ever
been, noting that there is nearly nothing there, nothing to
do. And there is a significant drug
addiction issue in that area, which of course, brings to
thought that Koeberger himself was once addicted to heroin.
(13:28):
And according to Vicki Ward, this area in town where Brian
Koeberger lived and where his parents home is, it's on the
outskirts and it's kind of the furthest out place you could
live and commute to New Jersey. Now let's get into the 911.
(13:55):
Call the report of an unconscious person.
This 911 call has been topic of so much confusion and curiosity,
I'm sure partly to do with the gag order and that everything
has seemed so extremely secretive.
(14:19):
Mainly, how such a horrific scene could be mistaken for
someone unconscious. And the answer is not nearly as
mysterious as it has seemed for almost three years.
Hunter Johnson, Ethan's best friend, was the only person who
(14:42):
went into Zanna's bedroom that morning of November 13th, 2022.
Now that the 911 audio has been released, we clearly hear him
say to the girls who were present, get out, get out.
After he had entered Santa's bedroom.
(15:03):
The simple answer is he was protecting those girls.
He didn't tell them what he's seen.
He told them to call 911. He was trying to spare them from
the terrible truth and it's thatsimple.
(15:26):
We also have an expert medical examiner who weighed in, Doctor
Kendall Crowns. He is an esteemed forensic
pathologist. Most recently, he shared insight
into what the victims Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan, and Zanna likely
endured. There are things that experts in
(15:50):
the field can gather based on the information and simple
science. And I want to preface this by
saying the next couple minutes, this is graphic.
It may be hard to listen to. I'm giving you a trigger
warning. They're very difficult details
(16:15):
to listen to. Of course, stop the episode if
you need to, take a break if youneed to, but I just want to put
that warning out there. Doctor Crowns says that one stab
wound would not immediately killsomeone or incapacitate an
(16:36):
individual. Often times there is a struggle,
an attempt to flee or an attemptto grab the knife or shield
themselves. Doctor Crowns further said that
it is without a doubt each victim suffered and stabbing
(16:59):
murders have a lot of rage behind them.
When asked to explain how a stabbing death occurs and what
victims experience, Doctor Kendall Crowns went into
excruciating detail. He says it is not a fast death.
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It is not painless. A victim has internal and
external bleeding. If the lungs are damaged or
affected, which is likely in this case, the person
experiences a form of drowning on their own blood, the chest
(17:48):
cavity will fill with blood. The victim would also be
coughing up blood. Quite frankly, there are not
enough words to explain the thoughts and feelings that that
information alone brings to the surface.
(18:13):
And then there is some new information.
During Vicki Ward, the author's investigation into Brian's
childhood, his education, she came across information that
(18:33):
Brian Koburger had studied Elliot Rodger.
Now, this person is not someone that I personally had ever heard
of. So I've now of course dug into
that. Who is he?
What did he do? Now when I first heard this
(18:54):
information, it stuck out to me for a few reasons.
The main one being that bizarre account on social media, Papa
Rodger, that was weighing in on the murders prior to any person
of interest, any arrest. But the details that this person
(19:18):
was commenting about. It almost seemed as though that
person had insider insight. And many people theorized that
Koeburger was behind the Papa Roger account and the profile
photo side profile of a man vaguely resembling Koeburger.
(19:39):
Once we knew what Koeburger looked like.
When I heard the name Elliot Rodger, I stopped in my tracks.
Rodger. Elliot Rodger was 22 years old
and a college student, and he killed 6 people during a
stabbing and shooting spree in 2014.
(20:06):
While he grew up privileged, he was the son of a film maker.
He had an extreme hate towards women, which was fueled by the
frustration that he was still a virgin after his murder spree.
(20:27):
Before he turned the gun on himself, the 22 year old posted
a quote retribution video to YouTube, and he emailed a
lengthy manifesto document to almost two dozen people.
Following Elliot Rodger's crimes, the term incel became
(20:49):
more widely known. Rodger was dubbed an incel hero
by others who shared his frustrations other in cells.
And if you're not familiar, incel refers to an involuntarily
celibate person. And it's important to note that
(21:13):
not every in cell is violent, becomes violent or becomes a
criminal. And I just I, I'm very curious
what my listeners think. Are you outraged?
(21:33):
I can see both sides. It is just, it's shocking that
we had nearly three years of pretrial, all of these hurdles,
a change of venue, several delays, all to then do a plea
(21:55):
deal almost less than a month before trial is set to begin.
And I think it's also fair to assume that the never before
heard details that were shared in that most recent Dateline
episode. They're true because there has
(22:17):
been no statement from anyone that those details are false.
No one has gone after Dateline for spreading false information.
Instead, Judge Hoopler ordered an investigation into how
Dateline obtained those details.Because only someone with very
(22:38):
privileged access would have known these things.
And then at the final hour, Koburger takes a plea deal.
So with that said, I'm now goingto shift gears a little bit.
(22:59):
We are going to get into the plea hearing that occurred
yesterday and all of the information that was gained from
that. I think more information than
what I expected was shared. There was a proffer from the
(23:22):
prosecution where lead prosecutor Bill Thompson stood
and read off evidence that wouldhave been used at trial to
support the plea deal and Brian Koburger's guilty pleas.
And there were some details thatwe did not know before.
(23:44):
Again, this hearing was yesterday, July 2nd, 2025.
It was scheduled for 11 AM Mountain Time.
That is the time zone there in Idaho, which the hearing was in
Ada County because there was that change of venue.
The hearing started with Judge Hitler addressing the call for
(24:07):
the public to contact him and his staff.
He called it incredibly disruptive and stated that he
has not read the emails or listened to the voicemails.
All of them were forwarded to security and law enforcement
(24:28):
where necessary. He added that he would never
allow this public reach out to him to influence the court or
his rulings. He also then made it clear that
(24:51):
should he reject the plea, he cannot force prosecutors to seek
the death penalty. Both of these things seem
pointed at the Gungkalves family.
They are very much wanting the death penalty and they on their
(25:17):
family Facebook page, called forthe public to reach out and
essentially beg that this plea deal be rejected.
Judge Hitler then offered his apologies to the families for
the short notice of the day's hearing and said that he also
(25:37):
learned of the plea Monday afternoon and prior to that he
was operating fully under the impression that this was going
to trial. He then asked the media who was
in the courtroom, different members of the press, to wait
until all of the families had left after the hearing before
(26:02):
the media then got up and began to leave.
He had a copy of the plea agreement and went over that.
It states that fixed sentences are a part of this plea deal,
meaning that Centene has effectively already been
(26:24):
decided. If he pleads guilty, he would
receive 10 years for felony burglary and one life sentence
for every homicide he committed,meaning for life sentences and
(26:44):
that all sentences will run consecutively, meaning the 10
years and then directly the fourlife sentences or vice versa.
There is at no point he will getout of jail.
Judge Hitler also shared that the court is not bound by the
(27:08):
sentencing. However, he can only impose A
lesser sentence. Another part of the plea
agreement is that Koburger is not allowed to seek a lesser
sentence and he is not allowed to appeal.
So his right to appeal, he has effectively waived it and after
(27:34):
sentencing he will proceed to spend his remaining days in
prison. There will be no appeals.
Koeberger stood and he replied yes when Judge Hitler asked if
he understood the plea, the ramifications of his plea, and
(27:56):
that he is not to plead guilty to any crime he did not commit.
Koburger was then sworn in replying yes to the questions
that are asked when you're swornin.
Swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing about the
truth. He says yes and I'm adding
(28:21):
emphasis on my words because Koburger was not meek or soft
spoken throughout any of these proceedings.
Not a single word that came out of his mouth was gentle.
He was stoic and stone cold visibly.
(28:44):
Not a single ounce of remorse orshame for what he has done.
Nothing. Judge Hipler then asked
Koeberger if he has consumed anydrugs or substances that would
affect his thinking and decisionmaking.
(29:07):
Koeberger responds no, Judge Hipler says.
So you're thinking clearly? Yes, responds Koeberger.
Judge Hipler asks if Koeberger agrees with the plea agreement,
to which he says yes. Judge Hipler asks, are you
(29:34):
pleading guilty because you are guilty?
Yes, says Koburger. Judge Hitler asks Koeberger a
series of questions and Koeberger responds with clear
yes or no answers, and again, heis not speaking softly.
(29:55):
A written factual basis documentis included with the plea
agreement, which is signed by Brian Koeberger.
They did not read this document.My best interpretation of this
is that he provided a summary offactual basis in the plea
(30:17):
agreement to admit or show his guilt.
But again, that document was notgotten into.
And then Hitler goes through each of the murder charges and
(30:39):
he says on or about November 13th, 2022, did you enter enter
the residence at 1122 King Rd. in Moscow, ID with the intent to
commit felony murder? Yes.
Koeberger answers. And did you on November 13th,
(31:03):
2022, in Latah County, State of Idaho, kill and murder Madison
Mogan, a human being? Yes.
And did you do that willfully, unlawfully, deliberately, with
premeditation, malice and forethought?
(31:27):
Yes, Judge Hitler then proceededto ask the same questions for
each victim individually and Coburger responded clearly and
stone cold yes. Lead prosecutor Bill Thompson
(31:50):
then stands and gives a proffer as to essentially the primary
evidence that would have been used at trial and what their
reason to believe Brian Koburgeris guilty is the facts, the
evidence that leads them to the presumption that he is guilty of
(32:11):
these crimes. And I have a summary of what was
shared in that proffer by Bill Thompson, and I'm going to go
through this for you guys. Some of it is definitely things
we did not know before. The Kabar knife was purchased in
March of 2022 when the defendantlived in Pennsylvania at his
(32:34):
parents home. He used an Amazon gift card to
purchase the Kabar knife and thesheath.
June of 2022, defendant moved toPullman, WA.
Beginning July 9th, 2022, the defendant's phone began
connecting to a cell tower servicing the 1122 King Rd.
(32:56):
residence. Between July 9th and November
7th, 2022, the defendant's phoneconnected to that tower
servicing the King Rd. residencebetween the hours of 10:00 PM
and 4:00 AM, 20-3 times. August 22nd of 2022, a deputy
(33:22):
stopped Koeberger at 11:00 PM for a traffic stop.
During that traffic stop, Koeberger's name and address was
obtained. November 13th, 2022, Koeberger's
phone left his apartment. It turned off at 2:54 AM and
(33:43):
remained off until approximately4:58 AM.
Video matching the defendant's car was caught on video circling
the 1122 King Rd. area. It came into the immediate area
and went into a dead end. Evidence says that the defendant
(34:09):
entered the kitchen sliding door, went to the third floor
with a knife, and killed MadisonBogan and Caylee Gun Calvins.
As the defendant left the room, the knife sheath was left next
to Madison Bogan. Single source male DNA was found
(34:30):
on the sheath as well as blood evidence belonging to Caylee and
Maddie. Santa was still awake.
The defendant encountered Zana. The defendant murdered Zana.
(34:51):
Ethan was asleep. The defendant then entered
Zana's bedroom and murdered Ethan Chapin.
Each victim suffered multiple stab wounds.
The State has no evidence that the defendant intended to kill
(35:15):
all four victims. There is no evidence of a sexual
assault on any of the victims. 1surviving roommate awoke and saw
the defendant in all black carrying some sort of a
container. She watched him exit out of the
(35:36):
sliding glass door on the 2nd floor in the kitchen.
The defendant's car was caught on video leaving the area at a
high rate of speed, nearly crashing when making a turn.
No video of the of the defendantwas captured on the highway on
(35:57):
the trip back to Pullman, WA after the murders.
The State believes and or knows that the defendant took back
roads home. 5:26 AM Video catches defendant's vehicle
travelling to his apartment. November 13th, 2022.
The defendant's phone returns tothe area of the King Rd.
(36:21):
residence around 9:00 AM and then returns to his apartment
around 9:30 AM. The defendant then takes a
selfie with a thumbs up. Defendant's phone travelled to
an area with the large bodies ofwater.
(36:41):
November 13th, 2022. Defendant began searching for a
Kabar knife and sheath, likely to replace the sheath that he
then knew he left behind and theknife that was disposed of.
It has never been found. Defendant attempted to delete or
(37:04):
alter his search history on Amazon.
The defendant changed his vehicle registration from
Pennsylvania to Washington. Surveillance video shows the
suspect vehicle not having a front license plate.
Pennsylvania does not require a front license plate.
(37:25):
Trash was pulled from the defendant's parents home in
Pennsylvania. DNA on AQ tip matched the father
of the male DNA on the knife sheath.
Let me repeat that. DNA on AQ tip matched the father
(37:46):
of the male whose DNA was on theknife sheath, meaning that the
DNA on the Q-tip that person is the father of the person whose
DNA is on the knife sheath. Upon arrest and return to Idaho,
the defendant's DNA was taken and it was a definitive match to
(38:11):
the DNA on the knife sheath. The knife has never been
recovered. The defendant's car was nearly
dismantled inside and was found to be meticulously clean and no
(38:32):
evidence was recovered. Judge Hitler asks Koeberger 1 by
1 how he pleads guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.
(38:53):
Upon hearing all of the evidenceand reading through the plea
agreement and Brian Koburger admitting his guilt, Judge
Hitler accepts the plea deal anda hearing has been set for
sentencing. Which we have an idea of what
(39:14):
the sentence will be because it was already determined in the
plea agreement and there's really no reason to believe that
Judge Hitler would impose A lesser sentence.
So likely Brian Koburger will beserving four life sentences plus
10 years for that felony burglary.
(39:35):
Also want to mention that while Bill Thompson was reading that
proffer, it appeared he choked up as he was going over the
murders of Kaylee, Maddie, Ethanand Sienna.
He seemed to struggle and have ahard time.
Bill Thompson also requested that the non dissemination
(39:58):
order, which is the gag order, remain in place until
sentencing. The defense had no objection and
Judge Hitler ordered that it remain in effect until
sentencing and that after sentencing no one sees any
reason that the gag order shouldcontinue.
So that is good news because there is now a chance that.
(40:25):
Lawyers, people involved in the investigation, police, anyone
truly could then share more information.
And once the case is closed, there is also the chance that
journalists, individuals can do FOIA requests and obtain parts,
(40:48):
if not all of the case file. Judge Hitler also ruled that the
defendant's right to come in civilian clothes is revoked, so
he will be in his jail uniform when he attends his sentencing
hearing. I would love to know what you
(41:11):
all think. It's difficult.
My heart breaks for Kaylee's father, Steve Gonzalez.
He no one could be a bigger advocate for their child than he
has. And I hate that he feels, as he
(41:33):
shared on a new interview with Ashley Banfield on News Nation,
he feels like he failed his daughter.
And I hate that he feels that way, and I hate that he feels
the system failed them. I can see both sides.
I can see why some of the families simply wanted it over
(41:56):
with. And I can also see why some
families think that life in prison is not enough.
It's very hard. It was a shocking update and
truly is heartbreaking. And lives have been ruined no
(42:16):
matter what. And it's clear that Koeburger
seems to lack any sort of conscious morality.
There was not a shred of remorse, as he said in that
courtroom and answered the judges questions.
He's absolute evil. One good thing though, you know,
(42:40):
is that part of that plea agreement, he is not allowed to
appeal. And so that prevents the family
from all of the families from going through another version of
hell by him filing appeal after appeal.
(43:03):
Jodi Arias, if any of you are familiar with that case, she has
been prancing in and out of courtrooms for years.
She is still filing appeals and Koeberger now has completely
waived that right. He cannot do that.
And I don't know if you would say it's a good thing if it's
the bright side. But there are murder victims
(43:29):
families and loved ones who go through trial.
The defendant, the killer is found guilty and they still will
not admit that they did it. And so at least one thing these
families got is that he said outloud, he did it guilty, guilty,
(43:58):
guilty, guilty. And that's something that some
families never get. And maybe that's one of the only
things that can bring some solace to the families who feel
completely betrayed and let downby the choice of the
prosecutor's office to make thisbehind the scenes deal with
(44:24):
Brian Koburger and only notify them after the fact.
And essentially say, this is what we're doing.
You have no choice. We have drug you along for
nearly three years and we have now decided to end it this way
and you have no say so thanks. So that is the update.
(44:45):
I don't think it's what any of us were expecting, but I, I
don't know what I feel about it.I think it's absolutely
devastating and heartbreaking. And I hope that the family is
able to get whatever answers they're seeking, whether it be
from detectives once the gag order is lifted, or whether they
(45:09):
want to request the entire case file and see everything for
themselves. Whatever it is that can help
them find some sort of closure and peace, I hope they're able
to get that. I genuinely, truly,
wholeheartedly cannot imagine. This case has definitely been
(45:36):
constantly on my mind. I've been constantly following
it. It is heartbreaking.
It has weighed on me as I know it has many other people and I
am not entirely sure at this moment how I feel about this
plea agreement. But it's done, there's no going
(45:59):
back, and it's gonna be what it is.
Thank you guys very much for listening to this episode.
Thank you for still being here even though I have been quite
scattered with episodes. I am going to do better, I
promise. If you're interested in
information that has been sharedon by the Gungkalvas family
leading up to the plea hearing, I have that on the sub stack.
(46:22):
I have an entire section dedicated to this case on the
Autopsy of a Crime sub stack. If you're not subscribed, please
subscribe. Any new post is delivered
directly to your inbox and that is Autopsy of a
crime.substack.com And I'll alsoinclude a link so that you can
(46:45):
read everything from the hearing.
Read the articles I've posted and different various things
I've included on the sub stack as far as posts on Facebook from
the Goncalves family interviews,details of interviews,
everything is on there promise. So I'll link that below.
(47:05):
And thank you guys so much for listening.
I will be back soon soon sooner than this has been with a new
episode. Thank you for listening to
Autopsy of a Crime. It genuinely means so much to me
that you're here. Until next time, bye.
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That's Better Help. HELP dot com forward slash
TERIN. Hello Clarice, how are you guys
doing? I know it has been a while since
(02:33):
I uploaded a new podcast episode.
My apologies. Life happens.
I have a toddler and a wild dog running through my home, and
sometimes it can be really hard to get the quiet space needed in
order to record. But we are back and a lot has
(02:55):
happened. As you may know, Brian Koburger
at Ultimately the Final Hour accepted a plea deal for the
murders of Kaylee Gonkalves, Zanna Karnodel, Ethan Chapin and
Madison Morgan. So we're going to rewind a
(03:17):
little bit. Let's catch up on from the
moment that this news dropped. It was shocking.
Some of the families have spokenout.
They were blindsided by this. The family of Kaylee Gonkalves
very much, it was against a pleadeal.
They wanted to see the trial through.
(03:37):
They wanted a jury of their peers to decide the fate of
Brian Koburger. And it's been a lot.
The families, the media, all of us really who have been
following this case were shockedto find out that Monday the
state had reached a plea agreement with Brian Koeberger
(03:59):
and his defense team. So like I said, I'm going to
rewind a little bit from when wefound out this information and
then we are going to get into every single detail of that plea
hearing that occurred yesterday.So as we knew, this plea hearing
(04:22):
was scheduled and set to take place on Wednesday, July 2nd.
It was 11 AM Mountain Time, 1:00PM Eastern Time.
And there was the potential thatJudge Hitler could have rejected
this. The Goncalves family is and was
(04:45):
asking for support. They were calling for the public
to reach out to the court to judge Hitler and essentially beg
and plead that this plea deal not be accepted.
The chances seemed slim, but it was possible.
(05:10):
The news of the plea deal truly sent shock waves and the court
date was looming. And then we began finding out
new details because people who have never spoken before decided
to do interviews, mainly Doctor Catherine Ramsland.
(05:34):
If you recall, she was Brian Koburger's professor at the
Sales University. She is also a serial killer
expert. She has done interviews with Ted
Bundy and wrote a book regardingBTK.
So it appears she was going to be a witness at trial.
(05:57):
And since news of a plea agreement was circulating, she
agreed to give her first ever interview regarding Brian
Koburger. She went on to News Nation with
Brian Enton. And then we also have Vicki
Ward, who is an author. She has written a new book about
the Idaho case. My understanding is that it
(06:20):
primarily focuses on the victims.
And she has also been sharing details that she has unearthed
through investigating for this book.
Hunter Johnson, Ethan Chapin's best friend, will also be a part
of an upcoming docu series on Amazon Prime that will be
(06:43):
released on July 11th. And he has also sat down with
Good Morning America. And he gave some new insight on
that 911 call for an unconsciousperson.
And it was never as strange as it seemed.
Media outlets dubbed the plea a deal with the devil.
(07:04):
You know, it's human nature to want to make sense of something
so horrible. The need to know why, even
though no reason will ever be justified.
We have to wonder how sick does someone have to be to think of
(07:30):
doing something like this, let alone actually do it.
The cruel, harsh truth is that there is evil in this world.
They walk among us and even withthe most trained eye, they can
go unnoticed. So let's get into first this
(07:52):
plea agreement. And this is things that we knew
as this hearing was approaching,things most of us were
wondering. So without a doubt, the plea
agreement is and was controversial.
It was shocking, possibly havingmore people against it than for
(08:13):
it. The families as well seemed
quite divided. It has been shared that Madison
Morgan's family, or at least hermom was in support of the plea
deal, as well as Ethan Chapin's family.
They were in support of the pleadeal.
And then we have the Goncalves and Cronodal families who
(08:35):
strongly opposed a plea. So while thinking about this and
wondering, you know, what's going to happen should.
And now since a plea deal has been accepted, there is nothing
(08:56):
that will prevent Brian Koburgerfrom doing interviews or even
writing a book about these crimes, brutal and horrific
murders he is accused of committing and has now pleaded
guilty to. We can officially say Brian
Koburger murdered Madison Morgan, Ethan Chapin, Kelly
(09:22):
Gonzalez and Zanna Kernodle. He is a monster.
Regarding the plea, there was nocall.
There was no meeting. There was no discussion on terms
of the potential plea agreement.There was no consideration.
(09:45):
Prosecutors sent the families a letter via e-mail.
How do we live in a world where an accused quadruple murderer
has more rights than the victim's families?
And it's also worth noting that the gag order is not immediately
(10:06):
lifted. It will require a hearing of its
own, potentially. And there is a chance that we
will never know any more than wealready do.
My personal opinion Coburger will seek attention and fame.
It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, but it will
(10:30):
happen. The newest revelations first
coming from the interview with Doctor Ramslin.
She again spoke publicly for thefirst time and shared that this
is the first time she's speakingbecause she was set to be a
witness at trial. Ramslin stated that she never
had a concerning interaction with Koburger.
(10:52):
She called him respectful and intense.
She went on to tell Brian Enton with News Nation that she has
thought about the possibility ofinterviewing and studying Brian
Koeberger for 2 1/2 years. So if Koeberger is willing to,
(11:13):
she will most definitely do it. Doctor Ramslin also added that
when the news of his arrest broke, she gave him the benefit
of the doubt. She awaited the alleged alibi
and however, once released, she says the alibi, you know, star
(11:34):
gazing, driving around all alone.
Doctor Ramslin says that the alibi was not an alibi at all,
not by legal definition, and Co Burger would have known that due
to his studies and education. And then we have Vicki Ward.
(11:56):
She, as I mentioned, has authored a book that will be
coming out. She has shared that last summer
Michael Koburger, Brian Koburger's father, told a friend
that what happened at 1122 King Rd. was drug related and that
Brian would be exonerated. Which I can't help but think of
(12:21):
those rumors that were swirling near the beginning of all of
this that it was drug related. Michael Koburger reiterated that
last summer to a friend and Vicki Ward, by all accounts,
seems to have done very extensive research for her book.
She has visited Koburger's hometown, spoke with the friends
(12:44):
who came over that morning to 1122 King Rd. the friends that
Dylan and Bethany called the surviving roommates, and she has
developed close relationships tomany of the friends and families
of the victims. She called Brian Koburger's
(13:05):
hometown one of the most depressing places she's ever
been, noting that there is nearly nothing there, nothing to
do. And there is a significant drug
addiction issue in that area, which of course, brings to
thought that Koeberger himself was once addicted to heroin.
(13:28):
And according to Vicki Ward, this area in town where Brian
Koeberger lived and where his parents home is, it's on the
outskirts and it's kind of the furthest out place you could
live and commute to New Jersey. Now let's get into the 911.
(13:55):
Call the report of an unconscious person.
This 911 call has been topic of so much confusion and curiosity,
I'm sure partly to do with the gag order and that everything
has seemed so extremely secretive.
(14:19):
Mainly, how such a horrific scene could be mistaken for
someone unconscious. And the answer is not nearly as
mysterious as it has seemed for almost three years.
Hunter Johnson, Ethan's best friend, was the only person who
(14:42):
went into Zanna's bedroom that morning of November 13th, 2022.
Now that the 911 audio has been released, we clearly hear him
say to the girls who were present, get out, get out.
After he had entered Santa's bedroom.
(15:03):
The simple answer is he was protecting those girls.
He didn't tell them what he's seen.
He told them to call 911. He was trying to spare them from
the terrible truth and it's thatsimple.
(15:26):
We also have an expert medical examiner who weighed in, Doctor
Kendall Crowns. He is an esteemed forensic
pathologist. Most recently, he shared insight
into what the victims Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan, and Zanna likely
endured. There are things that experts in
(15:50):
the field can gather based on the information and simple
science. And I want to preface this by
saying the next couple minutes, this is graphic.
It may be hard to listen to. I'm giving you a trigger
warning. They're very difficult details
(16:15):
to listen to. Of course, stop the episode if
you need to, take a break if youneed to, but I just want to put
that warning out there. Doctor Crowns says that one stab
wound would not immediately killsomeone or incapacitate an
(16:36):
individual. Often times there is a struggle,
an attempt to flee or an attemptto grab the knife or shield
themselves. Doctor Crowns further said that
it is without a doubt each victim suffered and stabbing
(16:59):
murders have a lot of rage behind them.
When asked to explain how a stabbing death occurs and what
victims experience, Doctor Kendall Crowns went into
excruciating detail. He says it is not a fast death.
(17:24):
It is not painless. A victim has internal and
external bleeding. If the lungs are damaged or
affected, which is likely in this case, the person
experiences a form of drowning on their own blood, the chest
(17:48):
cavity will fill with blood. The victim would also be
coughing up blood. Quite frankly, there are not
enough words to explain the thoughts and feelings that that
information alone brings to the surface.
(18:13):
And then there is some new information.
During Vicki Ward, the author's investigation into Brian's
childhood, his education, she came across information that
(18:33):
Brian Koburger had studied Elliot Rodger.
Now, this person is not someone that I personally had ever heard
of. So I've now of course dug into
that. Who is he?
What did he do? Now when I first heard this
(18:54):
information, it stuck out to me for a few reasons.
The main one being that bizarre account on social media, Papa
Rodger, that was weighing in on the murders prior to any person
of interest, any arrest. But the details that this person
(19:18):
was commenting about. It almost seemed as though that
person had insider insight. And many people theorized that
Koeburger was behind the Papa Roger account and the profile
photo side profile of a man vaguely resembling Koeburger.
(19:39):
Once we knew what Koeburger looked like.
When I heard the name Elliot Rodger, I stopped in my tracks.
Rodger. Elliot Rodger was 22 years old
and a college student, and he killed 6 people during a
stabbing and shooting spree in 2014.
(20:06):
While he grew up privileged, he was the son of a film maker.
He had an extreme hate towards women, which was fueled by the
frustration that he was still a virgin after his murder spree.
(20:27):
Before he turned the gun on himself, the 22 year old posted
a quote retribution video to YouTube, and he emailed a
lengthy manifesto document to almost two dozen people.
Following Elliot Rodger's crimes, the term incel became
(20:49):
more widely known. Rodger was dubbed an incel hero
by others who shared his frustrations other in cells.
And if you're not familiar, incel refers to an involuntarily
celibate person. And it's important to note that
(21:13):
not every in cell is violent, becomes violent or becomes a
criminal. And I just I, I'm very curious
what my listeners think. Are you outraged?
(21:33):
I can see both sides. It is just, it's shocking that
we had nearly three years of pretrial, all of these hurdles,
a change of venue, several delays, all to then do a plea
(21:55):
deal almost less than a month before trial is set to begin.
And I think it's also fair to assume that the never before
heard details that were shared in that most recent Dateline
episode. They're true because there has
(22:17):
been no statement from anyone that those details are false.
No one has gone after Dateline for spreading false information.
Instead, Judge Hoopler ordered an investigation into how
Dateline obtained those details.Because only someone with very
(22:38):
privileged access would have known these things.
And then at the final hour, Koburger takes a plea deal.
So with that said, I'm now goingto shift gears a little bit.
(22:59):
We are going to get into the plea hearing that occurred
yesterday and all of the information that was gained from
that. I think more information than
what I expected was shared. There was a proffer from the
(23:22):
prosecution where lead prosecutor Bill Thompson stood
and read off evidence that wouldhave been used at trial to
support the plea deal and Brian Koburger's guilty pleas.
And there were some details thatwe did not know before.
(23:44):
Again, this hearing was yesterday, July 2nd, 2025.
It was scheduled for 11 AM Mountain Time.
That is the time zone there in Idaho, which the hearing was in
Ada County because there was that change of venue.
The hearing started with Judge Hitler addressing the call for
(24:07):
the public to contact him and his staff.
He called it incredibly disruptive and stated that he
has not read the emails or listened to the voicemails.
All of them were forwarded to security and law enforcement
(24:28):
where necessary. He added that he would never
allow this public reach out to him to influence the court or
his rulings. He also then made it clear that
(24:51):
should he reject the plea, he cannot force prosecutors to seek
the death penalty. Both of these things seem
pointed at the Gungkalves family.
They are very much wanting the death penalty and they on their
(25:17):
family Facebook page, called forthe public to reach out and
essentially beg that this plea deal be rejected.
Judge Hitler then offered his apologies to the families for
the short notice of the day's hearing and said that he also
(25:37):
learned of the plea Monday afternoon and prior to that he
was operating fully under the impression that this was going
to trial. He then asked the media who was
in the courtroom, different members of the press, to wait
until all of the families had left after the hearing before
(26:02):
the media then got up and began to leave.
He had a copy of the plea agreement and went over that.
It states that fixed sentences are a part of this plea deal,
meaning that Centene has effectively already been
(26:24):
decided. If he pleads guilty, he would
receive 10 years for felony burglary and one life sentence
for every homicide he committed,meaning for life sentences and
(26:44):
that all sentences will run consecutively, meaning the 10
years and then directly the fourlife sentences or vice versa.
There is at no point he will getout of jail.
Judge Hitler also shared that the court is not bound by the
(27:08):
sentencing. However, he can only impose A
lesser sentence. Another part of the plea
agreement is that Koburger is not allowed to seek a lesser
sentence and he is not allowed to appeal.
So his right to appeal, he has effectively waived it and after
(27:34):
sentencing he will proceed to spend his remaining days in
prison. There will be no appeals.
Koeberger stood and he replied yes when Judge Hitler asked if
he understood the plea, the ramifications of his plea, and
(27:56):
that he is not to plead guilty to any crime he did not commit.
Koburger was then sworn in replying yes to the questions
that are asked when you're swornin.
Swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing about the
truth. He says yes and I'm adding
(28:21):
emphasis on my words because Koburger was not meek or soft
spoken throughout any of these proceedings.
Not a single word that came out of his mouth was gentle.
He was stoic and stone cold visibly.
(28:44):
Not a single ounce of remorse orshame for what he has done.
Nothing. Judge Hipler then asked
Koeberger if he has consumed anydrugs or substances that would
affect his thinking and decisionmaking.
(29:07):
Koeberger responds no, Judge Hipler says.
So you're thinking clearly? Yes, responds Koeberger.
Judge Hipler asks if Koeberger agrees with the plea agreement,
to which he says yes. Judge Hipler asks, are you
(29:34):
pleading guilty because you are guilty?
Yes, says Koburger. Judge Hitler asks Koeberger a
series of questions and Koeberger responds with clear
yes or no answers, and again, heis not speaking softly.
(29:55):
A written factual basis documentis included with the plea
agreement, which is signed by Brian Koeberger.
They did not read this document.My best interpretation of this
is that he provided a summary offactual basis in the plea
(30:17):
agreement to admit or show his guilt.
But again, that document was notgotten into.
And then Hitler goes through each of the murder charges and
(30:39):
he says on or about November 13th, 2022, did you enter enter
the residence at 1122 King Rd. in Moscow, ID with the intent to
commit felony murder? Yes.
Koeberger answers. And did you on November 13th,
(31:03):
2022, in Latah County, State of Idaho, kill and murder Madison
Mogan, a human being? Yes.
And did you do that willfully, unlawfully, deliberately, with
premeditation, malice and forethought?
(31:27):
Yes, Judge Hitler then proceededto ask the same questions for
each victim individually and Coburger responded clearly and
stone cold yes. Lead prosecutor Bill Thompson
(31:50):
then stands and gives a proffer as to essentially the primary
evidence that would have been used at trial and what their
reason to believe Brian Koburgeris guilty is the facts, the
evidence that leads them to the presumption that he is guilty of
(32:11):
these crimes. And I have a summary of what was
shared in that proffer by Bill Thompson, and I'm going to go
through this for you guys. Some of it is definitely things
we did not know before. The Kabar knife was purchased in
March of 2022 when the defendantlived in Pennsylvania at his
(32:34):
parents home. He used an Amazon gift card to
purchase the Kabar knife and thesheath.
June of 2022, defendant moved toPullman, WA.
Beginning July 9th, 2022, the defendant's phone began
connecting to a cell tower servicing the 1122 King Rd.
(32:56):
residence. Between July 9th and November
7th, 2022, the defendant's phoneconnected to that tower
servicing the King Rd. residencebetween the hours of 10:00 PM
and 4:00 AM, 20-3 times. August 22nd of 2022, a deputy
(33:22):
stopped Koeberger at 11:00 PM for a traffic stop.
During that traffic stop, Koeberger's name and address was
obtained. November 13th, 2022, Koeberger's
phone left his apartment. It turned off at 2:54 AM and
(33:43):
remained off until approximately4:58 AM.
Video matching the defendant's car was caught on video circling
the 1122 King Rd. area. It came into the immediate area
and went into a dead end. Evidence says that the defendant
(34:09):
entered the kitchen sliding door, went to the third floor
with a knife, and killed MadisonBogan and Caylee Gun Calvins.
As the defendant left the room, the knife sheath was left next
to Madison Bogan. Single source male DNA was found
(34:30):
on the sheath as well as blood evidence belonging to Caylee and
Maddie. Santa was still awake.
The defendant encountered Zana. The defendant murdered Zana.
(34:51):
Ethan was asleep. The defendant then entered
Zana's bedroom and murdered Ethan Chapin.
Each victim suffered multiple stab wounds.
The State has no evidence that the defendant intended to kill
(35:15):
all four victims. There is no evidence of a sexual
assault on any of the victims. 1surviving roommate awoke and saw
the defendant in all black carrying some sort of a
container. She watched him exit out of the
(35:36):
sliding glass door on the 2nd floor in the kitchen.
The defendant's car was caught on video leaving the area at a
high rate of speed, nearly crashing when making a turn.
No video of the of the defendantwas captured on the highway on
(35:57):
the trip back to Pullman, WA after the murders.
The State believes and or knows that the defendant took back
roads home. 5:26 AM Video catches defendant's vehicle
travelling to his apartment. November 13th, 2022.
The defendant's phone returns tothe area of the King Rd.
(36:21):
residence around 9:00 AM and then returns to his apartment
around 9:30 AM. The defendant then takes a
selfie with a thumbs up. Defendant's phone travelled to
an area with the large bodies ofwater.
(36:41):
November 13th, 2022. Defendant began searching for a
Kabar knife and sheath, likely to replace the sheath that he
then knew he left behind and theknife that was disposed of.
It has never been found. Defendant attempted to delete or
(37:04):
alter his search history on Amazon.
The defendant changed his vehicle registration from
Pennsylvania to Washington. Surveillance video shows the
suspect vehicle not having a front license plate.
Pennsylvania does not require a front license plate.
(37:25):
Trash was pulled from the defendant's parents home in
Pennsylvania. DNA on AQ tip matched the father
of the male DNA on the knife sheath.
Let me repeat that. DNA on AQ tip matched the father
(37:46):
of the male whose DNA was on theknife sheath, meaning that the
DNA on the Q-tip that person is the father of the person whose
DNA is on the knife sheath. Upon arrest and return to Idaho,
the defendant's DNA was taken and it was a definitive match to
(38:11):
the DNA on the knife sheath. The knife has never been
recovered. The defendant's car was nearly
dismantled inside and was found to be meticulously clean and no
(38:32):
evidence was recovered. Judge Hitler asks Koeberger 1 by
1 how he pleads guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.
(38:53):
Upon hearing all of the evidenceand reading through the plea
agreement and Brian Koburger admitting his guilt, Judge
Hitler accepts the plea deal anda hearing has been set for
sentencing. Which we have an idea of what
(39:14):
the sentence will be because it was already determined in the
plea agreement and there's really no reason to believe that
Judge Hitler would impose A lesser sentence.
So likely Brian Koburger will beserving four life sentences plus
10 years for that felony burglary.
(39:35):
Also want to mention that while Bill Thompson was reading that
proffer, it appeared he choked up as he was going over the
murders of Kaylee, Maddie, Ethanand Sienna.
He seemed to struggle and have ahard time.
Bill Thompson also requested that the non dissemination
(39:58):
order, which is the gag order, remain in place until
sentencing. The defense had no objection and
Judge Hitler ordered that it remain in effect until
sentencing and that after sentencing no one sees any
reason that the gag order shouldcontinue.
So that is good news because there is now a chance that.
(40:25):
Lawyers, people involved in the investigation, police, anyone
truly could then share more information.
And once the case is closed, there is also the chance that
journalists, individuals can do FOIA requests and obtain parts,
(40:48):
if not all of the case file. Judge Hitler also ruled that the
defendant's right to come in civilian clothes is revoked, so
he will be in his jail uniform when he attends his sentencing
hearing. I would love to know what you
(41:11):
all think. It's difficult.
My heart breaks for Kaylee's father, Steve Gonzalez.
He no one could be a bigger advocate for their child than he
has. And I hate that he feels, as he
(41:33):
shared on a new interview with Ashley Banfield on News Nation,
he feels like he failed his daughter.
And I hate that he feels that way, and I hate that he feels
the system failed them. I can see both sides.
I can see why some of the families simply wanted it over
(41:56):
with. And I can also see why some
families think that life in prison is not enough.
It's very hard. It was a shocking update and
truly is heartbreaking. And lives have been ruined no
(42:16):
matter what. And it's clear that Koeburger
seems to lack any sort of conscious morality.
There was not a shred of remorse, as he said in that
courtroom and answered the judges questions.
He's absolute evil. One good thing though, you know,
(42:40):
is that part of that plea agreement, he is not allowed to
appeal. And so that prevents the family
from all of the families from going through another version of
hell by him filing appeal after appeal.
(43:03):
Jodi Arias, if any of you are familiar with that case, she has
been prancing in and out of courtrooms for years.
She is still filing appeals and Koeberger now has completely
waived that right. He cannot do that.
And I don't know if you would say it's a good thing if it's
the bright side. But there are murder victims
(43:29):
families and loved ones who go through trial.
The defendant, the killer is found guilty and they still will
not admit that they did it. And so at least one thing these
families got is that he said outloud, he did it guilty, guilty,
(43:58):
guilty, guilty. And that's something that some
families never get. And maybe that's one of the only
things that can bring some solace to the families who feel
completely betrayed and let downby the choice of the
prosecutor's office to make thisbehind the scenes deal with
(44:24):
Brian Koburger and only notify them after the fact.
And essentially say, this is what we're doing.
You have no choice. We have drug you along for
nearly three years and we have now decided to end it this way
and you have no say so thanks. So that is the update.
(44:45):
I don't think it's what any of us were expecting, but I, I
don't know what I feel about it.I think it's absolutely
devastating and heartbreaking. And I hope that the family is
able to get whatever answers they're seeking, whether it be
from detectives once the gag order is lifted, or whether they
(45:09):
want to request the entire case file and see everything for
themselves. Whatever it is that can help
them find some sort of closure and peace, I hope they're able
to get that. I genuinely, truly,
wholeheartedly cannot imagine. This case has definitely been
(45:36):
constantly on my mind. I've been constantly following
it. It is heartbreaking.
It has weighed on me as I know it has many other people and I
am not entirely sure at this moment how I feel about this
plea agreement. But it's done, there's no going
(45:59):
back, and it's gonna be what it is.
Thank you guys very much for listening to this episode.
Thank you for still being here even though I have been quite
scattered with episodes. I am going to do better, I
promise. If you're interested in
information that has been sharedon by the Gungkalvas family
leading up to the plea hearing, I have that on the sub stack.
(46:22):
I have an entire section dedicated to this case on the
Autopsy of a Crime sub stack. If you're not subscribed, please
subscribe. Any new post is delivered
directly to your inbox and that is Autopsy of a
crime.substack.com And I'll alsoinclude a link so that you can
(46:45):
read everything from the hearing.
Read the articles I've posted and different various things
I've included on the sub stack as far as posts on Facebook from
the Goncalves family interviews,details of interviews,
everything is on there promise. So I'll link that below.
(47:05):
And thank you guys so much for listening.
I will be back soon soon sooner than this has been with a new
episode. Thank you for listening to
Autopsy of a Crime. It genuinely means so much to me
that you're here. Until next time, bye.
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