March 31, 2025 • 62 mins
Join us as we go through the new documents with a fine tooth comb. Covering the newest revelations of DM's drawing for police, the paper written by Bryan Kohberger about crime scenes, and other included court motions and exhibits. - - Documents referenced in this episode can be found at Autopsyofacrime.substack.com under Episode Sources. Titled the same as this episode. - - Thank you BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast. Receive 10% off your first month by visiting BetterHelp.com/Terin
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(02:17):
Hello, Clarisse, welcome to Welcome back Autopsy of a Crime.
Thank you guys for tuning in. I had a different episode
planned. However, we're back in Idaho.
As some of you, or most of you if you're listening to this, may
(02:41):
know the last episode we talked about this massive document
drop. I have now had the opportunity
to go through all of the documents. 1 document in
particular is 70 pages I believe.
And while this isn't the whole picture, this isn't everything
(03:06):
that they've got. This is not all of the evidence.
While this isn't the whole picture, we're seeing the pieces
of the picture come together of what will be presented at trial
against Brian Koburger. Now, as a lot of us know, his
(03:27):
DNA was found on the knife sheath, right?
They're not even. The defense is not even at this
point, attempting to deny that it's his DNA.
Apparently the defense's angle on this is going to be that this
evidence was planted and this isa frame job.
(03:51):
Someone out there, someone else did this and they chose Brian
Koeberger to be the fall guy. Now.
Brian Koeberger, One of these exhibits is a paper that he
wrote while he was at Desales University.
(04:12):
I'm not a specialist. I'm not an expert.
I'm not an attorney. I'm just a girl with a
microphone and something to say.And I like to think that I have
two brain cells to rub together at a crime scene.
If something specific, let's getspecific, this crime scene,
(04:35):
there are four people stabbed todeath and there is a knife
sheath next to or under one of the victims.
Common sense and just overall, you know, would this would lead
a reasonable person to believe that that knife sheath is
(04:59):
somehow related to the four deceased individuals who died by
stab wounds? That seems reasonable.
Are we following? That seems like a reasonable
thought or assumption and we're going to get into it.
But Brian himself even wrote about this in his paper, that
(05:19):
items such as this that would appear to relate to the scene or
the crime or the victims, you would operate under the
assumption that this could potentially be connected.
It's very, very. It's key evidence.
(05:40):
The defense is now suggesting wewant you to throw everything to
the wind. Don't trust your eyes.
Don't trust your common sense. Trust us.
Brian Koburger is being framed even though he wrote a paper
himself that is now attached to an exhibit and emotion by the
(06:03):
state that I'm assuming they're intending on using against him
to show his extensive knowledge of criminology and how a crime
scene would be processed. The defense says.
Ah, ignore it. Throw all of your reason to the
wind. Forget everything.
You know, somebody somewhere wanted to frame Brian Koburger.
(06:28):
Yeah, I don't know. Doesn't quite jive.
Again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an expert.
You know, maybe Ann Taylor can really spin a story.
Maybe she could convince regularpeople who will be on the jury
that Brian Koburger is somehow avictim as well.
(06:51):
He has nothing to do with this, even though a vehicle exactly
like his was in the area and hascalled on surveillance video.
This is a frame job. Looking at this personally, I
would perhaps be fearful that this would insult the
(07:11):
prospective jury, insult their intelligence, that we, the
defense team, are asking them tobe absolute morons and not
connect dots and go from A to B.Instead, we want them to go from
(07:33):
Z to F. We, we know nothing now,
everything. We're just, you know, we're
throwing it all to the wind. Don't worry about anything.
He's innocent. What?
Yeah. I just.
I'm not sure how that's going toland.
Again, if I were someone on thisjury, I think that would perhaps
(07:59):
be a wee bit insulting that you think I am just an absolute
idiot. Anyways, let's jump into some of
these documents. As I said, I believe this one is
70 pages, if not more. We're going to start with this
one. This is the State's reply to
(08:23):
Defendants objection to motion in Lemine.
I'm sorry, I don't know what that word is regarding self
authentication of records and reliance on IRE 8, zero 3 ( 6
and ( 8. IRE 9 zero 2 ( 4 and ( 11 and or
(08:45):
IRE 8 zero 3 ( 24. Again, this is a lot of pages.
I'm not going to read all of them to you.
They will be LinkedIn, the sub stack.
If you have not had the opportunity to view these and
you want to read them, I've gonethrough, I've highlighted things
that I think are important. We're going to start with Page 1
(09:11):
comes now the State of Idaho by and through the Latah County
Prosecuting Attorney and respectfully replies to
defendant's objection to State'smotion and Lemine regarding self
authentication of records filed on March 17th, 2025.
The State seeks to rely on self authenticating evidence as
(09:33):
opposed to calling foundational witnesses in order to accomplish
the same. It is understood that admission
would be contingent upon the state laying a proper foundation
with a certificate and or affidavit under IRE 8 zero 3 ( 6
or ( 8 And there's several exhibits attached to this.
(09:56):
But within the motion, it goes through several paragraphs of
specific evidence and exhibits that the defense had filed an
objection to. And now the state is filing
back, highlighting every paragraph that the defense
objected to, stating essentiallywhat it is.
(10:20):
And then there's several items that they proclaim they no
longer intend on relying on thisevidence.
So of the ones that I've picked through that I think are
probably going to be extremely important.
One laying the foundation, showing timelines, where the
victims were earlier that day, how their nights progressed,
(10:42):
where they were when they were arrived at home.
There's a lot of warrants in here for bank records cell
phones, including Brian Koburger's, and it spells out
very explicitly that everything was gained from these
telephones. The call logs, the text
(11:05):
messages, the cloud data, the networking of it pinging from
cell towers and all of the cell tower data.
They've got it all. So paragraph one is 1320 Linda
Lane surveillance footage for November 13th, 2022.
The description that the prosecution has written out says
(11:28):
this footage is maintained by a property management company.
The State would seek admission of this footage pursuant to IRE
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The relevant footage is taken on
November 13th, 2022, approximately .3 miles from 1122
King Rd. IE the crime scene.
The State may rely on video footage around 3:29 AM showing
(11:51):
the suspect vehicle. The area of the crime scene
prior to the homicides. I think that's supposed to say
in the area. Anyways.
The state is in the process of obtaining a certificate of
authenticity. Paragraph 2/13/30.
Linda Lane surveillance footage for November 13th, 2022.
(12:11):
This footage is maintained by the same property management
company as 1320 Lunda Lane. The State would seek admission
of this footage pursuant to IRE 8 Zero 3 ( 6.
The relevant footage is taken onNovember 13th, 2022
approximately .3 miles from 1122King Rd.
IE the crime scene. The State may rely on video
(12:34):
footage from approximately 3:30 AM to 4:00 O 7:00 AM showing the
suspect vehicle travelling around the area of the crime
scene prior to the homicides. The State is in the process of
obtaining a certificate of authenticy.
Isn't that incredible that he was framed and somehow this
person that wanted to frame him and ruin his life miraculously I
(12:58):
guess you know, got the exact same car he has as well for this
frame job. Paragraph 3.
Albertsons, Clarkston, WA. Video surveillance and business
records for November 13th, 2022.This footage is maintained by
Albertson's Grocery in Clarkston, WA.
The State would seek admission of this footage pursuant to IRE
(13:21):
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The relevant footage is taken on
November 13th, 2022. The State may rely on video
whoops on video footage from approximately 12:46 PM to 1 O
6:00 PM to show Defendant's vehicle and actions hours after
(13:41):
the homicides. The state is in the process of
obtaining a certificate of authenticity.
So this is the day the scene andthe victims were discovered.
November 13th, 2022, 12:46 PM to1 O 6:00 PM that they have his
car on surveillance footage. We're going to skip down a ways.
(14:09):
A lot of these other paragraphs are breaking down warrants for
cell phones, phone records, etcetera, etcetera.
There's evidence that is providing a timeline for the
victims and financial records and video footage of the
victims. The state also is itemizing
(14:31):
evidence, as I mentioned throughout this that they no
longer intend to rely on, for example, paragraph seven, Bank
of America records for BF and XK.
The state no longer intends to rely on this evidence.
If the state does, it will lay the proper foundation at trial.
(14:52):
So we're going to skip down a ways.
Paragraph 13 The sales student records regarding Brian
Koburger. These documents are maintained
by a private university. The State would seek admission
of this document pursuant to IRE8 Zero 3 ( 6 and 9.
(15:13):
Zero 2 ( 11. The State has attached the
relevant evidence which would beintroduced to show defendants
knowledge of crime scenes. State's Exhibit S-7, The State
is in the process of obtaining acertificate of authenticity.
This is attached and we're goingto get into it.
(15:35):
This is Desales and this is alsothe college prior to Washington
where he studied under the womanwho wrote books on the serial
killer BTK. Moving along, paragraph 14,
Dick's Sporting Goods record of sale for Brian Koburger.
(15:56):
These documents are maintained by a business.
The State would seek admission of the documents pursuant to IRE
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The relevance of this
information is that Brian Koburger purchased a black
balaclava from Dick's Sporting Goods on January 10th, 2022.
(16:22):
This mask is the same type of mask described by DM that she
witnessed worn by a male in the residence on November 13th,
2022. A certificate of authenticity is
attached as Exhibit S-8, which was included with the return for
(16:42):
Dick's records. This was provided to defendant
on May 18th, 2023. So let's take just a quick
pause. I'm pretty sure I covered this
in the last episode, but in thishuge document drop, we now know
(17:03):
that one of the surviving roommates, DM, drew a sketch of
what she believed she saw that night.
What she believed? This mask thing that this person
was wearing that has also been released and it will be on the
sub stack for this episode. But let's go back to him
(17:29):
purchasing this from Dick's Sporting Goods on January 10th,
2022. Now with the frame job defense,
are we to believe that someone intended to frame him at the
beginning of the year for a crime that they could ended up
(17:50):
committing in November? Is that what we are to believe
or should he be found guilty? Was he aware in January that he
was going to end up committing acrime of this nature?
(18:10):
And I, the other home that was broken into that we found out
about and the female woke up, she fought the assailant, the
intruder, and he left. And they've never found this
person. They don't know who it is.
I want to know what kind of maskshe's seen.
Was it similar? Because now we know he has owned
(18:32):
something of this nature, a masklike this, since January 10th of
2022. Then we also have E&S services
at 1300 Johnson Ave. Pullman, WA.
Surveillance video for November 13th, 2022.
(18:56):
It says this footage is maintained by a business.
The State would seek admission of the documents pursuant to IRA
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The State may rely on video
footage from November 13th, 2022at around 5:26 AM showing the
suspect vehicle after the homicides in Pullman, WA.
(19:19):
A certificate of Authenticity isattached as Exhibit S-10, which
was obtained prior to the Grand Jury.
This was provided to Defendant with Grand Jury materials in
July 2023. So what I'm taking from this is
that they objected to line itemsthat they already had
(19:39):
authentication material for which this just seems like some
sort of a game. Scrolling down, I'm skipping now
to line item 40. This is Sunset Mart at 1311 S
Main St. Moscow, ID Surveillance video
(20:02):
for November 13th, 2022. This footage is maintained by a
business. The State would seek admission
of the documents pursuant to IRA8, Zero 3 ( 6.
The relevant footage is taken onNovember 13th, 2022,
approximately .5 miles from 1122King Rd.
(20:24):
The state may rely on video footage around 3:28 AM showing
the suspect vehicle in the area of the crime scene prior to the
homicides. The state is in the process of
obtaining a certificate of authenticity. 41 is also Sunset
(20:44):
Mart, however it is a different address.
This is 1455 SE Bishop Blvd. in Pullman, WA Video for November
13th, 2022. This footage is maintained by a
business. The State would seek admission
of the documents pursuant to IRA8 Zero 3 ( 6.
The State may rely on video footage from November 13th, 2022
(21:08):
at approximately 5:25 AM and 5:26 AM showing the suspect
vehicle in Pullman, WA after thehomicides.
So as you can see, they're laying a timeline here.
And this is what they're going to do at trial.
They're going to lay the foundation and the timelines
where these people were, where they ended up, where the
(21:31):
suspect's vehicle was, where it went, and everything that had
happened. And as we can see here on line
item 40, this is Moscow ID vehicle is .5 miles from the
home and this was 3:28 AM and then we jumped to 525 and 5:26
(21:56):
AM back in Pullman, WA suspect'svehicle.
Then we have some other items that they no longer intend to
rely on. We are.
We're also seeing here line item45, T-Mobile phone records for
KG and DM. The State would seek admission
(22:21):
of the records pursuant to IRA 8zero 3 ( 6.
Specifically, the State would seek to show the phone records
for KG and DM on November 13th, 2022.
This evidence provides a timeline of events for KG and DM
before the homicides and cooperates states witnesses
(22:44):
testimony. A certificate of authenticity
for these records are attached as Exhibit S-14.
This was provided to the defendant with the corresponding
records around April 4th, 2023. Then we have US Chef store more
video footage. I'm going to skip the admission
(23:06):
and the verbiage that tends to repeat itself here.
It looks like this footage is November 13th of 2022 as well.
The state may rely on footage from approximately 12:42 and
12:44 PM to show defendant's vehicle and actions hours after
the homicides. So that is the day that the
(23:32):
victims were found. The 911 call went out.
This is 12:42 and 12:44 PM and that 911 call went out at
sometime within the 11:00 AM mark.
So then we also have Washington State University.
(23:58):
This is surveillance video and they state that they may rely on
video footage from November 13thof 2022 from approximately 5:28
AM to 5:30 AM showing the suspect vehicle after the
homicides in Pullman, WA. Not saying that the homicides
were in Pullman, WA, but that the vehicle was in Pullman, WA
(24:20):
at 528 AM. 5:30 AM. You know, the last episode I
mentioned Cheryl McCallum, whichyou know, I just, I just adore
Cheryl McCullum. While I don't personally know
her, I trust Cheryl McCullum with my life.
Same for Joseph Scott Morgan, just adore them, love them.
(24:44):
They are experts in this field. And I touched on the post that
Cheryl McCullum made on Instagram with an example.
It looks like, you know, sort ofa marketing photo of an example
of what this mask would look like.
And she went on to say in the comments that he is not some
(25:10):
expert killer who, you know, is as they're comparing him to BTK
or Ted Bundy. She's she calls him a hack job
that made every mistake possible.
I guess we will see how true that is at trial.
But Cheryl was spicy and I'm here for it.
(25:33):
So going into some of these exhibits, the first one we're
going to really get into and attached is a lot of exhibits
that shows warrants for AT&T, warrants for financial records,
all of these things. But one item that caught my
attention, and I admit I read itover and over again because it
(25:56):
seems like every line somehow shocked me more than the line I
had just read. And it is a paper that Brian
Coburger wrote while he was enrolled at Desales University
and it seems as though he had tolay out for class.
(26:20):
I'm assuming all of the steps that an expert, a professional
law enforcement crime scene, I'mnot sure which of the sort, but
this is essentially a paper laying out every single thing
(26:42):
that would be done start to finish arrival at a scene,
finding a victim, how to processevidence.
It's very lengthy. I'm not going to read the entire
thing, however I have highlighted some areas of
interest. We'll say it's several pages.
(27:04):
It's dated 5/5/2020. And I want to just point out
that in this paper, it's not clear he could have been
assigned this quote, case or story to go with.
(27:24):
However, the nature of what he is covering in this paper and
how to process this scene is a woman who has been stabbed to
death with a knife. The foreshadowing is not lost on
(27:45):
me. So the first thing that stuck
out to me, and this is I believeon the second page there,
there's many paragraphs and bullet points where he is laying
out all of the things that needsto happen, what you need to do.
So this is titled equipment I will have on hand for the
(28:09):
investigation. And one of the last bullet
points says protective clothing,boot covers, eyewear, fiber free
overhauls, face masks, hair Nets, gowns, and anything that
(28:31):
will prevent me from contaminating the scene with
things I bring in with me. Now this paper is geared and is
from a law enforcement investigative point of view.
However, it is thought provokingof what if you were on the other
(28:54):
side and you had this knowledge and you were going to commit a
crime, would you take these steps to prevent yourself from
leaving anything behind that would lead to you?
A bummer? He left the knife sheath.
Maybe Sheryl Mccollum's right, he's a hack job.
(29:17):
So then in this paper we have some other stuff he's discussing
entering the home for crime scene documentation and photo.
Photo, Can I speak photography and videography?
The second bullet point says I must ensure that myself and my
(29:40):
fellow crime scene personnel arewearing gloves and other
protective equipment as to avoidcontaminating the scene with
Latin fingerprints. This one's interesting.
A fiber free boot cover would also be ideal to avoid leaving
physical footprints or residue from the boot.
(30:06):
Anything that is fiber free and covers the mouth, hair, and
overall body would be helpful inavoiding crime scene
contamination since hair, saliva, skin cells, and other
bodily fluid or cells may be added to the scene, thus
(30:26):
contaminating it. And just to make sure we all
remember, Dylan describes a masked man and in her multiple
interviews says she didn't feel that she could see his hair.
She couldn't see his mouth, his nose.
She just remembers eyebrows. Let me read that again.
(30:47):
Anything that is fiber free and covers the mouth, hair, and
overall body would be helpful inavoiding crime scene
contamination since hair, saliva, skin cells, and other
bodily fluid or cells may be added to the scene, thus
contaminating it or leaving a trail to the perpetrator.
(31:11):
He didn't say that, I'm saying that.
And then after that, it says fibers can be left via the
theory of exchange and would contaminate the crime scene from
its initial state as the offender left.
It sort of just makes my skin crawl.
(31:35):
So scrolling down a little bit here we have a another bullet
point that says the body and physical evidence to take a
picture prior to collection fromthe forensic services and
criminal investigator of includes.
So he's discussing now the body of the victim and physical
(32:02):
evidence that should be photographed prior to evidence
collection. And he goes on to say photograph
the deceased woman in the livingroom, who should be photographed
under adequate lighting from a Longview.
Specific shots should be focusedon the evidence of harm on her
(32:24):
body and clothing. The bruises on her face, the
marks on her neck, the bloody shirt and any other signs of
postmortem lividity should be photographed and taped without
moving. The victim measurement markers
should be placed next to her. Does she have defensive wounds?
(32:51):
Are there hesitation marks on her related to the knife or are
there multiple stab wounds? These must be photographed and
taped. Is the mark on her neck related
to the hanger near her? Question mark The photographs
(33:12):
make it sure that these items were indeed present at the crime
scene. Another bullet point says the
knife should be photographed under adequate light and a
marker should be placed next to the knife to give the both the
best photogenic representation of the evidence.
(33:33):
This next bullet point also stuck out to me in relation to
this case. Is there any sign of forced
entry to the home? This would be evident by broken
glass from windows and prime marks on the doors or windows
surrounding the house. This should be photographed,
videotaped and documented. If there is not forced entry, it
(33:56):
may be suggested that the woman knew her killer.
Interesting stuff indeed. And then throughout majority of
this paper, and again, this could have been the assignment,
but it reads as though he is theboss of this scene.
He this is his scene, he is controlling it.
(34:19):
We're now on to sketching the scene, physical evidence,
etcetera. And he writes, though I can
assign another officer to sketchit, I have decided to take on
this task. A 20 foot steel measuring tape
should be used to record these exact and accurately recorded
(34:41):
measurements of the physical evidence and permanent objects
in the house. Going along a little bit more,
we have a bullet point that saysstaging is common.
For example, the offender may have taken items from the house
(35:01):
to make it look like a burglary turned robbery, which went
wrong. He's now discussing in the paper
items of physical evidence that should be looked for, using a
flashlight, so on, so on. And he writes smaller items of
(35:27):
physical evidence include wood chips, hairs, paint flakes,
glass fragments, or small fibers.
If not careful, these may be lost before even accounting for
or observing them. I think it's safe to say now,
(35:49):
just from this bit that I've read, he is knowledgeable about
the processing and handling of acrime scene, and perhaps the
argument could be made that should he decide to commit a
crime, he would know what to attempt to avoid.
(36:15):
It seems to be a fair, reasonable assumption.
Next bullet point providing investigative leads, for
example, checking into the husband or boyfriend in the
location of the children based on the crime scene evidence is
warranted so he also knows that when a woman is found deceased,
(36:40):
one of the first places police tend to look is the husband or
boyfriend. What are the alibis?
We're now going over in this paper the collection of items of
evidence. And there's just a few few
snippets I want to read you guys.
The first one says the knife should be examined for Latin
(37:04):
fingerprints to be logged separately.
Same with the coat hanger, door knobs around the house, upended
furniture, cell phone and virtually any physical evidence
and big enough to grab. And the reference of this coat
hanger, is that it? From reading through this, it
appears in this story he has formed there is a bent hanger
(37:29):
next to the deceased woman, so he references that a lot
throughout the paper. Ah, this goes on to say crimes
of passion are rooted in emotionality and impulsivity.
If this is the case, we can likely count on there being
Latin fingerprints on the doorknob and all over the knife
(37:50):
and victim. The shirt likely contains not
only the blood of the woman, butthe blood of the possible
offender. DNA from biological evidence
should be swabbed, placed in a vial, documented in notes and on
the container for the evidence chain of custody and included to
(38:10):
be sent to the crime lab. He says.
I should make sure to swab underher fingernails to see if the
DNA of the offender is there. She likely dug into their skin.
Interesting. We now know there's something,
(38:31):
some sort of evidence that was gained from nail scrapings
collected from Maddie Mogan. I believe there were two or
three DNA sources that were found there.
Further on it says is there evidence of personation?
Did the offender take something or did the offender display an
(38:54):
excessive need for control over the victim as demonstrated by
possible sexual assault and murder?
These are all observations to berecorded, though not
conclusively. And this just goes on and on.
It's a long paper. It's a long document.
(39:16):
Another bullet point says eyewitnesses and surveillance
footage in the trailer park, which appears to be the area he
chose or was given for this crime scene to be.
Yeah, eyewitnesses and surveillance footage in the
trailer park surrounding area drug store, which overseas the
trailer or nearby gas station can give us information on the
(39:39):
crime. It's amazing he knew that and
yet somehow got caught on every camera possible on his way to
and from Pullman, WA to Moscow, ID Kind of incredible.
But then again, it's a frame jobI'm scrolling through now.
(40:02):
That's the end of that exhibit of at least what I want to read
through again. I encourage you all.
To go look at these documents, read them, I will attach them to
the episode source material thatwill be on Autopsy of a
crime.substack.com. One of the other items in here
(40:27):
there, there's several attachments is the documentation
for Brian Koburger's vehicle title and something I noticed
which is interesting and it of course sound off in the
comments. I'm curious what you guys think
(40:49):
when I sign my name, I sign my first name and then my last
name. Am I the anomaly or do you do
the same? I notice on these documents for
his vehicle title, he signs his name, Brian C Koeberger.
His full name. I don't know, I found that
(41:10):
interesting. That's not the way I sign my
name. Maybe I'm the strange one here.
Let me let me know what you guysthink.
Additionally, this is him registering his vehicle in
Pullman, WA, which would change his license plate on his car
from a Pennsylvania license plate to a Washington license
(41:31):
plate. And this was filed on November
18th of 2022, just to refresh our memories.
There was seen the victims, the 911 call, everything was placed
November 13th of 2022. And that's likely when the
murders occurred. Sometime around 4:20 AM,
(41:52):
November 18th, he registers his vehicle in Washington, which
would change his license plate from one state to another and
could perhaps deter police that could potentially be looking for
him. But then again, you know, maybe
the person who framed him went and changed his license plate
(42:14):
and signed his name for him, Brian C Co Burger, never know.
And then we just have like some odometer disclosures.
It looks like he's a exempt fromsomething because the vehicle
has 115,000 miles on it. And then before we jump into the
(42:36):
documents with the drawing that Dylan Mortensen provided at the
end of this filing, we have a color photo of Brian Koburger's
license. And you know you have to sign
your name and then your signature is on your license as
well. I noticed again on his license
(42:59):
it is Brian C Koburger. And side note, he is an organ
donor and it looks like he changed his driver's license
from Pennsylvania to Washington and that's what these documents
(43:20):
are. And this was issued on July 1st
of 2022. He, it's issued as a transfer
Pennsylvania personal driver's license and he then obtained his
license in Washington state July.
(43:45):
I wonder why he didn't change his license plates then.
So then we're going to pop over here, we have another motion.
This is a defense's filing and adefense's motion, and this is
the reply to State's response todefendants in motion.
And Lamine still having a hard time with that word #7 regarding
(44:10):
witness identification by bushy eyebrows.
And we've talked about this before.
He's him and his defense team are trying to have a lot of
things blocked from what the jury is going to hear and is
going to see. One of the things I was reading
through is that he was requesting to explain his
(44:31):
appearance or how he may be perceived and his actions and
appearance that they had filed. Requesting that the defendant be
able to provide the jury with examples on his movements and
appearance and things like that,which seems very odd.
And the state is fighting that and says that it's not common,
(44:56):
it's not needed. There's a lot of other stuff in
there. But strange that he seems to be
concerned about how he will be perceived by the jury just
sitting in the courtroom lookingat him, observing him and his
movements and so on and so forth.
(45:16):
So again, of course they're attacking the bushy eyebrows and
this is a filing by his defense team.
I'm going to skip down to 1 portion of this.
It says the photo of Mr. Koeberger that the state
attached to its response is not relevant and is only
prejudicial. This is akin to the state trying
(45:38):
to identify Mr. Koeberger for DMor create its own cooperation
for her. DM previously said that she
could not identify him. Now, in the last episode, if you
haven't listened to it, we went over some of the many interviews
that she had with law enforcement.
And I could be wrong, maybe I hallucinated, but it seemed like
(46:03):
she was pretty sure that she hadseen this person in the home,
but she was intoxicated. She couldn't see their eyes and
stuff, which seemed to be confusing to her.
However, this person may have, or we're operating on the
assumption that this person had on a mask, which again, if
you're drunk and you're not expecting this, it would, it
(46:27):
would be confusing, I would imagine.
But this defense motion goes on to attack that DM stated she
could not identify him. It says there are literally
millions of people in the world who might be described as having
bushy eyebrows. The term itself is subjective
(46:50):
and DM has a fascination with drawing eyes and eyebrows.
It then mentions motions and exhibits.
This has been talked about a biton various outlets that she had
sketches all over her room. She tend to focus on eyes and
eyebrows. I mean perhaps that's why she
(47:13):
noticed his eyebrows. And of course, yes, there are
plenty of people who may be described as having bushy
eyebrows. However, what are the odds that
she feels this intruder she's seen had bushy eyebrows and then
the DNA on the knife sheath leads to a man with bushy
(47:35):
eyebrows. She also went on to say that he
was taller than her, maybe around 6 foot.
He was basketball player skinny.I mean, we're all we're hitting
kind of all the points of what his overall physical appearance
is. But they go on saying the DM
(47:58):
statements are being relied on by the state, did not employ a
witness identification procedure, so on, so on.
According to the state, DM's multiple descriptions of the
intruder were based on her own recollection and were not the
(48:19):
result of suggestive identification procedures
employed by law enforcement. Mr. Khoeberger points the court
the court to the following instances which are suggestive.
I'm assuming these interviews are recorded because they are
also referenced as exhibits, butwe have one in the second
(48:40):
interview. On November 13th 2022 DM was
interviewed at the Police Department by Detective Mowery
who inquired about facial features and asked DM if she
knew the color the intruders eyebrows were.
Detective Mallory is the person who mentioned quote eyebrows not
(49:01):
DM2. And the third interview on
November 17th, 2022, DM was interviewed by Detective Gooch
who asked DM if she knew what a Balkolava, which is that mask
sort of item that they have proof of him purchasing.
(49:22):
He asked if she knew what a balaclava was and showed her a
picture. In the fourth interview on
December 1st, 2022, DM drew the mask for the interviewer.
Copy of D Ms. drawing is attached and it is and I will
add that to the sub stack. They note it looks remarkably
(49:44):
similar to a balaclava. The state argues that DM is a
reliable witness should the court apply the five factor
Manson biggers, which is this isa case reference balancing tests
to evaluate witness reliability.It should not ignore either the
limited amount of time that DM had to view the intruder or her
(50:06):
state of intoxication. So, you know, let's, let's play
devil's advocate. I, it, I could see how it could
be problematic if this detectiveasked her, what about his
eyebrows? However, I can also see a point
of view or a world in which someone seen a person in their
(50:29):
house and you can't quite remember what you seen.
And, you know, maybe a detectivewould say, what about their
eyes? What about their nose?
Which it seems as though they are asking because in some of
these responses of her interviews, she says, I, I don't
remember seeing his mouth and remember seeing his nose.
(50:49):
I just remember thinking eyebrows.
So perhaps this detective did mention, OK, what about
eyebrows? Did you see his eyebrows?
Devil's advocate, I could see how it could be problematic and
maybe the defense can pose some sort of an argument on she clung
to eyebrows because she already had a tendency of drawing these
(51:10):
eyes and eyebrows. She had sketches all over her
room. And then when this detective
mentioned it, she just clung to it.
But what are the odds as the terrible luck Brian Koburger has
when the DNA on the sheath leadsto him, lo and behold, he has
bushy eyebrows. It's just the entire world must
(51:32):
be out to get him further on in this motion, it says DM saw the
intruder briefly in a dark hallway and in her own words,
she was probably quote very drunk and quote and tired when
she saw the intruder at 4:00 AM.Again, this is this is something
(51:53):
I've noticed they do in these documents.
They say 4:00 AM. However, we know that that is
not the time that the prosecution in the state is
claiming these murders took place.
So there's just very kind of sneaky little slide INS that
I've noticed the defense does insome of these documents.
This is one of them when she sawthe intruder at 4:00 AM.
(52:16):
The other documents, the state, I don't believe has ever said
4:00 AM. They're more specific on the
time. Should the court apply a
relevance test and weigh the reliability of DM?
Exclusion of the term quote, bushy eyebrows and quote is
appropriate for all of the reasons explained in the Manson
Biggers test and intoxication asreferenced and Almaraz.
(52:41):
So this is essentially a motion of them just throwing things at
the wall to see what sticks theywant.
Any mention of bushy eyebrows kept out of the trial.
And then at the very end, this is exhibit #11 and this looks
like a piece of notebook paper, the drawing that Dylan Mortensen
(53:04):
provided. Again, I'll add this to the sub
stack if you're curious. I'll also put links to the 70
plus pages and these other motions that we have.
But I'm torn, you know, I've been covering this and following
(53:25):
this case since November 13th of2022 when it hit every news
outlet imaginable and reading through this paper that he wrote
and knowing all of the educationhe had gone through, of course,
(53:46):
innocent until proven guilty. Should he be guilty?
I'm torn between two ideas. We know that there were some
references of visual snow. The defense is filed trying to
claim that he has some variationof autism.
I if he is guilty, if he's foundguilty, I wonder.
(54:12):
I'm curious and I can't, I don'treally have an, a formed opinion
either way, but I wonder, you know, and a lot of like serial
killers, a common thing that occurs is that they have a
tendency to harm animals when they're younger.
(54:32):
And I wonder did he always have this kind of, if he's guilty
that I'm speculating this is a theory.
Now we're talking theories. If he did this, did he always
have this kind of dark interest or desire to do something like
(54:56):
this? And that pushed him into the
criminology field to study this as sort of maybe a way to get
that thrill, and I'm using air quotes thrill.
It's disgusting. There's evil out there for sure.
(55:16):
And maybe he is one of those people.
But I wonder if he did this, didhe always have that sort of
darkness and that is why he wentinto this field and studied this
to such lengths or did getting into this field it just, he
(55:40):
became consumed and it's almost as though he this was treated as
some sort of a project to see how good he was if he could get
away with it. And I'm just torn between those
two ideas that if he is guilty and he did this was did he
always have this kind of, you know, for lack of a better way
(56:03):
to phrase this, Was he always kind of messed up and this was
the path that he was going to godown and that's why he studied
criminology? Or did he become so consumed
with his studies and thinking heknew everything and was an
expert that it made him want to commit a crime like this, maybe
(56:29):
as like a little project and a sick way to see if he could
master this and get away with it?
I don't know. I'm there are the two thoughts
that I have is, you know, was itall?
Was he always like this and that's why I went into the
field? Or did going into the field lead
to this because he's just so consumed with like the studying
(56:52):
and the specifics of all of this?
It's just, uh, I don't know, It's a thought that I have.
I'm just wondering and so much and I still am baffled by the
idea that their defenses, he wasframed.
(57:18):
Who? Why the amount of luck that this
framer would have had to have. Not only did they get his DNA on
the knife sheath, but they somehow managed to commit these
murders when he just so happenedto be out stargazing.
(57:38):
Maybe they had a tracker on his car and then somehow just so
magically had a vehicle just like his that was captured on
surveillance footage. And it just so happened his
phone disconnected from sending and receiving all data for a
certain block of time. And it just so happened that
(57:59):
that sort of that time period was when the police believe the
murders occurred. I just and baffled that this
could potentially really be the defense and they are going to
attempt to sell this to a jury of their peers without insulting
(58:22):
their intelligent intelligence and making these people feel
like you think I'm Boo Boo the fool.
So for now, that is what we have.
It's the main items that I wanted to discuss and kind of go
(58:43):
over from all of these documents.
There's also another motion filed in here and again, I'll
link everything that has numerous e-mail exchanges back
and forth between Bill Thompson and Ann.
There's another motion in here that stuck out to me because it
(59:06):
seems to be something in regard to a 3D model as a demonstrative
exhibit and the defendant in thedefense is trying to nitpick
this model. And it, it just struck me as
interesting, given that in that paper he wrote that's attached
(59:29):
to another motion, he extensively goes over how a
model of a crime scene can be made.
The software that can be used, the measurements that, you know,
this would equal this. It's it's not, you know, to
(59:52):
scale. It is a reconstruction.
He goes into crime scene sketches as well.
So the fact that there is an entire motion dedicated to
something about a model, it stuck out to me.
There's other emotions in here as well for experts that the
state intends to call. And there's nothing really that
(01:00:15):
tells us what any of this is we can assume, but it's essentially
just a list of many reports and then specifically listed lab
reports. You know, we have lab report
one, lab report 3, lab report 8.And it's just many, many
(01:00:38):
reports. And I, I'm sure there was a lot
of investigative and testing that that needed to be done that
they're going to go over and then they're just notifying
defense that hey, these are the experts we're going to call and
these are the exhibits and lab results we're going to have them
go over. So for now, that's what we have.
(01:01:02):
I'm still baffled that we were under a gag order.
This entire case was under a gagorder for so long and yet
they're making or they're allowing certain items now to
come to light before the trial even starts.
And it makes me wonder if at some point down the road are we
going to see the defense try to delay yet again and say, oh,
(01:01:23):
even though we were granted a change of venue, you know, now
some of these documents have gotten out and we're just not
able to find a non prejudicial jury pool.
It wouldn't shock me at this point.
OK, we're we're at almost an hour.
I'm going to wrap this up. Thank you guys for listening.
(01:01:45):
I will link the episode Show notes are the sub stack for
autopsy of a crime in the description below so that you
too can review this documents these documents if you want to
Thank you very much for listening.
Please stay safe and stay healthy.
Stay alert. All of the things.
(01:02:07):
It is a scary world out there and I will be back soon with a
new episode. Bye.
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(02:17):
Hello, Clarisse, welcome to Welcome back Autopsy of a Crime.
Thank you guys for tuning in. I had a different episode
planned. However, we're back in Idaho.
As some of you, or most of you if you're listening to this, may
(02:41):
know the last episode we talked about this massive document
drop. I have now had the opportunity
to go through all of the documents. 1 document in
particular is 70 pages I believe.
And while this isn't the whole picture, this isn't everything
(03:06):
that they've got. This is not all of the evidence.
While this isn't the whole picture, we're seeing the pieces
of the picture come together of what will be presented at trial
against Brian Koburger. Now, as a lot of us know, his
(03:27):
DNA was found on the knife sheath, right?
They're not even. The defense is not even at this
point, attempting to deny that it's his DNA.
Apparently the defense's angle on this is going to be that this
evidence was planted and this isa frame job.
(03:51):
Someone out there, someone else did this and they chose Brian
Koeberger to be the fall guy. Now.
Brian Koeberger, One of these exhibits is a paper that he
wrote while he was at Desales University.
(04:12):
I'm not a specialist. I'm not an expert.
I'm not an attorney. I'm just a girl with a
microphone and something to say.And I like to think that I have
two brain cells to rub together at a crime scene.
If something specific, let's getspecific, this crime scene,
(04:35):
there are four people stabbed todeath and there is a knife
sheath next to or under one of the victims.
Common sense and just overall, you know, would this would lead
a reasonable person to believe that that knife sheath is
(04:59):
somehow related to the four deceased individuals who died by
stab wounds? That seems reasonable.
Are we following? That seems like a reasonable
thought or assumption and we're going to get into it.
But Brian himself even wrote about this in his paper, that
(05:19):
items such as this that would appear to relate to the scene or
the crime or the victims, you would operate under the
assumption that this could potentially be connected.
It's very, very. It's key evidence.
(05:40):
The defense is now suggesting wewant you to throw everything to
the wind. Don't trust your eyes.
Don't trust your common sense. Trust us.
Brian Koburger is being framed even though he wrote a paper
himself that is now attached to an exhibit and emotion by the
(06:03):
state that I'm assuming they're intending on using against him
to show his extensive knowledge of criminology and how a crime
scene would be processed. The defense says.
Ah, ignore it. Throw all of your reason to the
wind. Forget everything.
You know, somebody somewhere wanted to frame Brian Koburger.
(06:28):
Yeah, I don't know. Doesn't quite jive.
Again, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an expert.
You know, maybe Ann Taylor can really spin a story.
Maybe she could convince regularpeople who will be on the jury
that Brian Koburger is somehow avictim as well.
(06:51):
He has nothing to do with this, even though a vehicle exactly
like his was in the area and hascalled on surveillance video.
This is a frame job. Looking at this personally, I
would perhaps be fearful that this would insult the
(07:11):
prospective jury, insult their intelligence, that we, the
defense team, are asking them tobe absolute morons and not
connect dots and go from A to B.Instead, we want them to go from
(07:33):
Z to F. We, we know nothing now,
everything. We're just, you know, we're
throwing it all to the wind. Don't worry about anything.
He's innocent. What?
Yeah. I just.
I'm not sure how that's going toland.
Again, if I were someone on thisjury, I think that would perhaps
(07:59):
be a wee bit insulting that you think I am just an absolute
idiot. Anyways, let's jump into some of
these documents. As I said, I believe this one is
70 pages, if not more. We're going to start with this
one. This is the State's reply to
(08:23):
Defendants objection to motion in Lemine.
I'm sorry, I don't know what that word is regarding self
authentication of records and reliance on IRE 8, zero 3 ( 6
and ( 8. IRE 9 zero 2 ( 4 and ( 11 and or
(08:45):
IRE 8 zero 3 ( 24. Again, this is a lot of pages.
I'm not going to read all of them to you.
They will be LinkedIn, the sub stack.
If you have not had the opportunity to view these and
you want to read them, I've gonethrough, I've highlighted things
that I think are important. We're going to start with Page 1
(09:11):
comes now the State of Idaho by and through the Latah County
Prosecuting Attorney and respectfully replies to
defendant's objection to State'smotion and Lemine regarding self
authentication of records filed on March 17th, 2025.
The State seeks to rely on self authenticating evidence as
(09:33):
opposed to calling foundational witnesses in order to accomplish
the same. It is understood that admission
would be contingent upon the state laying a proper foundation
with a certificate and or affidavit under IRE 8 zero 3 ( 6
or ( 8 And there's several exhibits attached to this.
(09:56):
But within the motion, it goes through several paragraphs of
specific evidence and exhibits that the defense had filed an
objection to. And now the state is filing
back, highlighting every paragraph that the defense
objected to, stating essentiallywhat it is.
(10:20):
And then there's several items that they proclaim they no
longer intend on relying on thisevidence.
So of the ones that I've picked through that I think are
probably going to be extremely important.
One laying the foundation, showing timelines, where the
victims were earlier that day, how their nights progressed,
(10:42):
where they were when they were arrived at home.
There's a lot of warrants in here for bank records cell
phones, including Brian Koburger's, and it spells out
very explicitly that everything was gained from these
telephones. The call logs, the text
(11:05):
messages, the cloud data, the networking of it pinging from
cell towers and all of the cell tower data.
They've got it all. So paragraph one is 1320 Linda
Lane surveillance footage for November 13th, 2022.
The description that the prosecution has written out says
(11:28):
this footage is maintained by a property management company.
The State would seek admission of this footage pursuant to IRE
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The relevant footage is taken on
November 13th, 2022, approximately .3 miles from 1122
King Rd. IE the crime scene.
The State may rely on video footage around 3:29 AM showing
(11:51):
the suspect vehicle. The area of the crime scene
prior to the homicides. I think that's supposed to say
in the area. Anyways.
The state is in the process of obtaining a certificate of
authenticity. Paragraph 2/13/30.
Linda Lane surveillance footage for November 13th, 2022.
(12:11):
This footage is maintained by the same property management
company as 1320 Lunda Lane. The State would seek admission
of this footage pursuant to IRE 8 Zero 3 ( 6.
The relevant footage is taken onNovember 13th, 2022
approximately .3 miles from 1122King Rd.
IE the crime scene. The State may rely on video
(12:34):
footage from approximately 3:30 AM to 4:00 O 7:00 AM showing the
suspect vehicle travelling around the area of the crime
scene prior to the homicides. The State is in the process of
obtaining a certificate of authenticy.
Isn't that incredible that he was framed and somehow this
person that wanted to frame him and ruin his life miraculously I
(12:58):
guess you know, got the exact same car he has as well for this
frame job. Paragraph 3.
Albertsons, Clarkston, WA. Video surveillance and business
records for November 13th, 2022.This footage is maintained by
Albertson's Grocery in Clarkston, WA.
The State would seek admission of this footage pursuant to IRE
(13:21):
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The relevant footage is taken on
November 13th, 2022. The State may rely on video
whoops on video footage from approximately 12:46 PM to 1 O
6:00 PM to show Defendant's vehicle and actions hours after
(13:41):
the homicides. The state is in the process of
obtaining a certificate of authenticity.
So this is the day the scene andthe victims were discovered.
November 13th, 2022, 12:46 PM to1 O 6:00 PM that they have his
car on surveillance footage. We're going to skip down a ways.
(14:09):
A lot of these other paragraphs are breaking down warrants for
cell phones, phone records, etcetera, etcetera.
There's evidence that is providing a timeline for the
victims and financial records and video footage of the
victims. The state also is itemizing
(14:31):
evidence, as I mentioned throughout this that they no
longer intend to rely on, for example, paragraph seven, Bank
of America records for BF and XK.
The state no longer intends to rely on this evidence.
If the state does, it will lay the proper foundation at trial.
(14:52):
So we're going to skip down a ways.
Paragraph 13 The sales student records regarding Brian
Koburger. These documents are maintained
by a private university. The State would seek admission
of this document pursuant to IRE8 Zero 3 ( 6 and 9.
(15:13):
Zero 2 ( 11. The State has attached the
relevant evidence which would beintroduced to show defendants
knowledge of crime scenes. State's Exhibit S-7, The State
is in the process of obtaining acertificate of authenticity.
This is attached and we're goingto get into it.
(15:35):
This is Desales and this is alsothe college prior to Washington
where he studied under the womanwho wrote books on the serial
killer BTK. Moving along, paragraph 14,
Dick's Sporting Goods record of sale for Brian Koburger.
(15:56):
These documents are maintained by a business.
The State would seek admission of the documents pursuant to IRE
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The relevance of this
information is that Brian Koburger purchased a black
balaclava from Dick's Sporting Goods on January 10th, 2022.
(16:22):
This mask is the same type of mask described by DM that she
witnessed worn by a male in the residence on November 13th,
2022. A certificate of authenticity is
attached as Exhibit S-8, which was included with the return for
(16:42):
Dick's records. This was provided to defendant
on May 18th, 2023. So let's take just a quick
pause. I'm pretty sure I covered this
in the last episode, but in thishuge document drop, we now know
(17:03):
that one of the surviving roommates, DM, drew a sketch of
what she believed she saw that night.
What she believed? This mask thing that this person
was wearing that has also been released and it will be on the
sub stack for this episode. But let's go back to him
(17:29):
purchasing this from Dick's Sporting Goods on January 10th,
2022. Now with the frame job defense,
are we to believe that someone intended to frame him at the
beginning of the year for a crime that they could ended up
(17:50):
committing in November? Is that what we are to believe
or should he be found guilty? Was he aware in January that he
was going to end up committing acrime of this nature?
(18:10):
And I, the other home that was broken into that we found out
about and the female woke up, she fought the assailant, the
intruder, and he left. And they've never found this
person. They don't know who it is.
I want to know what kind of maskshe's seen.
Was it similar? Because now we know he has owned
(18:32):
something of this nature, a masklike this, since January 10th of
2022. Then we also have E&S services
at 1300 Johnson Ave. Pullman, WA.
Surveillance video for November 13th, 2022.
(18:56):
It says this footage is maintained by a business.
The State would seek admission of the documents pursuant to IRA
8 Zero 3 ( 6. The State may rely on video
footage from November 13th, 2022at around 5:26 AM showing the
suspect vehicle after the homicides in Pullman, WA.
(19:19):
A certificate of Authenticity isattached as Exhibit S-10, which
was obtained prior to the Grand Jury.
This was provided to Defendant with Grand Jury materials in
July 2023. So what I'm taking from this is
that they objected to line itemsthat they already had
(19:39):
authentication material for which this just seems like some
sort of a game. Scrolling down, I'm skipping now
to line item 40. This is Sunset Mart at 1311 S
Main St. Moscow, ID Surveillance video
(20:02):
for November 13th, 2022. This footage is maintained by a
business. The State would seek admission
of the documents pursuant to IRA8, Zero 3 ( 6.
The relevant footage is taken onNovember 13th, 2022,
approximately .5 miles from 1122King Rd.
(20:24):
The state may rely on video footage around 3:28 AM showing
the suspect vehicle in the area of the crime scene prior to the
homicides. The state is in the process of
obtaining a certificate of authenticity. 41 is also Sunset
(20:44):
Mart, however it is a different address.
This is 1455 SE Bishop Blvd. in Pullman, WA Video for November
13th, 2022. This footage is maintained by a
business. The State would seek admission
of the documents pursuant to IRA8 Zero 3 ( 6.
The State may rely on video footage from November 13th, 2022
(21:08):
at approximately 5:25 AM and 5:26 AM showing the suspect
vehicle in Pullman, WA after thehomicides.
So as you can see, they're laying a timeline here.
And this is what they're going to do at trial.
They're going to lay the foundation and the timelines
where these people were, where they ended up, where the
(21:31):
suspect's vehicle was, where it went, and everything that had
happened. And as we can see here on line
item 40, this is Moscow ID vehicle is .5 miles from the
home and this was 3:28 AM and then we jumped to 525 and 5:26
(21:56):
AM back in Pullman, WA suspect'svehicle.
Then we have some other items that they no longer intend to
rely on. We are.
We're also seeing here line item45, T-Mobile phone records for
KG and DM. The State would seek admission
(22:21):
of the records pursuant to IRA 8zero 3 ( 6.
Specifically, the State would seek to show the phone records
for KG and DM on November 13th, 2022.
This evidence provides a timeline of events for KG and DM
before the homicides and cooperates states witnesses
(22:44):
testimony. A certificate of authenticity
for these records are attached as Exhibit S-14.
This was provided to the defendant with the corresponding
records around April 4th, 2023. Then we have US Chef store more
video footage. I'm going to skip the admission
(23:06):
and the verbiage that tends to repeat itself here.
It looks like this footage is November 13th of 2022 as well.
The state may rely on footage from approximately 12:42 and
12:44 PM to show defendant's vehicle and actions hours after
the homicides. So that is the day that the
(23:32):
victims were found. The 911 call went out.
This is 12:42 and 12:44 PM and that 911 call went out at
sometime within the 11:00 AM mark.
So then we also have Washington State University.
(23:58):
This is surveillance video and they state that they may rely on
video footage from November 13thof 2022 from approximately 5:28
AM to 5:30 AM showing the suspect vehicle after the
homicides in Pullman, WA. Not saying that the homicides
were in Pullman, WA, but that the vehicle was in Pullman, WA
(24:20):
at 528 AM. 5:30 AM. You know, the last episode I
mentioned Cheryl McCallum, whichyou know, I just, I just adore
Cheryl McCullum. While I don't personally know
her, I trust Cheryl McCullum with my life.
Same for Joseph Scott Morgan, just adore them, love them.
(24:44):
They are experts in this field. And I touched on the post that
Cheryl McCullum made on Instagram with an example.
It looks like, you know, sort ofa marketing photo of an example
of what this mask would look like.
And she went on to say in the comments that he is not some
(25:10):
expert killer who, you know, is as they're comparing him to BTK
or Ted Bundy. She's she calls him a hack job
that made every mistake possible.
I guess we will see how true that is at trial.
But Cheryl was spicy and I'm here for it.
(25:33):
So going into some of these exhibits, the first one we're
going to really get into and attached is a lot of exhibits
that shows warrants for AT&T, warrants for financial records,
all of these things. But one item that caught my
attention, and I admit I read itover and over again because it
(25:56):
seems like every line somehow shocked me more than the line I
had just read. And it is a paper that Brian
Coburger wrote while he was enrolled at Desales University
and it seems as though he had tolay out for class.
(26:20):
I'm assuming all of the steps that an expert, a professional
law enforcement crime scene, I'mnot sure which of the sort, but
this is essentially a paper laying out every single thing
(26:42):
that would be done start to finish arrival at a scene,
finding a victim, how to processevidence.
It's very lengthy. I'm not going to read the entire
thing, however I have highlighted some areas of
interest. We'll say it's several pages.
(27:04):
It's dated 5/5/2020. And I want to just point out
that in this paper, it's not clear he could have been
assigned this quote, case or story to go with.
(27:24):
However, the nature of what he is covering in this paper and
how to process this scene is a woman who has been stabbed to
death with a knife. The foreshadowing is not lost on
(27:45):
me. So the first thing that stuck
out to me, and this is I believeon the second page there,
there's many paragraphs and bullet points where he is laying
out all of the things that needsto happen, what you need to do.
So this is titled equipment I will have on hand for the
(28:09):
investigation. And one of the last bullet
points says protective clothing,boot covers, eyewear, fiber free
overhauls, face masks, hair Nets, gowns, and anything that
(28:31):
will prevent me from contaminating the scene with
things I bring in with me. Now this paper is geared and is
from a law enforcement investigative point of view.
However, it is thought provokingof what if you were on the other
(28:54):
side and you had this knowledge and you were going to commit a
crime, would you take these steps to prevent yourself from
leaving anything behind that would lead to you?
A bummer? He left the knife sheath.
Maybe Sheryl Mccollum's right, he's a hack job.
(29:17):
So then in this paper we have some other stuff he's discussing
entering the home for crime scene documentation and photo.
Photo, Can I speak photography and videography?
The second bullet point says I must ensure that myself and my
(29:40):
fellow crime scene personnel arewearing gloves and other
protective equipment as to avoidcontaminating the scene with
Latin fingerprints. This one's interesting.
A fiber free boot cover would also be ideal to avoid leaving
physical footprints or residue from the boot.
(30:06):
Anything that is fiber free and covers the mouth, hair, and
overall body would be helpful inavoiding crime scene
contamination since hair, saliva, skin cells, and other
bodily fluid or cells may be added to the scene, thus
(30:26):
contaminating it. And just to make sure we all
remember, Dylan describes a masked man and in her multiple
interviews says she didn't feel that she could see his hair.
She couldn't see his mouth, his nose.
She just remembers eyebrows. Let me read that again.
(30:47):
Anything that is fiber free and covers the mouth, hair, and
overall body would be helpful inavoiding crime scene
contamination since hair, saliva, skin cells, and other
bodily fluid or cells may be added to the scene, thus
contaminating it or leaving a trail to the perpetrator.
(31:11):
He didn't say that, I'm saying that.
And then after that, it says fibers can be left via the
theory of exchange and would contaminate the crime scene from
its initial state as the offender left.
It sort of just makes my skin crawl.
(31:35):
So scrolling down a little bit here we have a another bullet
point that says the body and physical evidence to take a
picture prior to collection fromthe forensic services and
criminal investigator of includes.
So he's discussing now the body of the victim and physical
(32:02):
evidence that should be photographed prior to evidence
collection. And he goes on to say photograph
the deceased woman in the livingroom, who should be photographed
under adequate lighting from a Longview.
Specific shots should be focusedon the evidence of harm on her
(32:24):
body and clothing. The bruises on her face, the
marks on her neck, the bloody shirt and any other signs of
postmortem lividity should be photographed and taped without
moving. The victim measurement markers
should be placed next to her. Does she have defensive wounds?
(32:51):
Are there hesitation marks on her related to the knife or are
there multiple stab wounds? These must be photographed and
taped. Is the mark on her neck related
to the hanger near her? Question mark The photographs
(33:12):
make it sure that these items were indeed present at the crime
scene. Another bullet point says the
knife should be photographed under adequate light and a
marker should be placed next to the knife to give the both the
best photogenic representation of the evidence.
(33:33):
This next bullet point also stuck out to me in relation to
this case. Is there any sign of forced
entry to the home? This would be evident by broken
glass from windows and prime marks on the doors or windows
surrounding the house. This should be photographed,
videotaped and documented. If there is not forced entry, it
(33:56):
may be suggested that the woman knew her killer.
Interesting stuff indeed. And then throughout majority of
this paper, and again, this could have been the assignment,
but it reads as though he is theboss of this scene.
He this is his scene, he is controlling it.
(34:19):
We're now on to sketching the scene, physical evidence,
etcetera. And he writes, though I can
assign another officer to sketchit, I have decided to take on
this task. A 20 foot steel measuring tape
should be used to record these exact and accurately recorded
(34:41):
measurements of the physical evidence and permanent objects
in the house. Going along a little bit more,
we have a bullet point that saysstaging is common.
For example, the offender may have taken items from the house
(35:01):
to make it look like a burglary turned robbery, which went
wrong. He's now discussing in the paper
items of physical evidence that should be looked for, using a
flashlight, so on, so on. And he writes smaller items of
(35:27):
physical evidence include wood chips, hairs, paint flakes,
glass fragments, or small fibers.
If not careful, these may be lost before even accounting for
or observing them. I think it's safe to say now,
(35:49):
just from this bit that I've read, he is knowledgeable about
the processing and handling of acrime scene, and perhaps the
argument could be made that should he decide to commit a
crime, he would know what to attempt to avoid.
(36:15):
It seems to be a fair, reasonable assumption.
Next bullet point providing investigative leads, for
example, checking into the husband or boyfriend in the
location of the children based on the crime scene evidence is
warranted so he also knows that when a woman is found deceased,
(36:40):
one of the first places police tend to look is the husband or
boyfriend. What are the alibis?
We're now going over in this paper the collection of items of
evidence. And there's just a few few
snippets I want to read you guys.
The first one says the knife should be examined for Latin
(37:04):
fingerprints to be logged separately.
Same with the coat hanger, door knobs around the house, upended
furniture, cell phone and virtually any physical evidence
and big enough to grab. And the reference of this coat
hanger, is that it? From reading through this, it
appears in this story he has formed there is a bent hanger
(37:29):
next to the deceased woman, so he references that a lot
throughout the paper. Ah, this goes on to say crimes
of passion are rooted in emotionality and impulsivity.
If this is the case, we can likely count on there being
Latin fingerprints on the doorknob and all over the knife
(37:50):
and victim. The shirt likely contains not
only the blood of the woman, butthe blood of the possible
offender. DNA from biological evidence
should be swabbed, placed in a vial, documented in notes and on
the container for the evidence chain of custody and included to
(38:10):
be sent to the crime lab. He says.
I should make sure to swab underher fingernails to see if the
DNA of the offender is there. She likely dug into their skin.
Interesting. We now know there's something,
(38:31):
some sort of evidence that was gained from nail scrapings
collected from Maddie Mogan. I believe there were two or
three DNA sources that were found there.
Further on it says is there evidence of personation?
Did the offender take something or did the offender display an
(38:54):
excessive need for control over the victim as demonstrated by
possible sexual assault and murder?
These are all observations to berecorded, though not
conclusively. And this just goes on and on.
It's a long paper. It's a long document.
(39:16):
Another bullet point says eyewitnesses and surveillance
footage in the trailer park, which appears to be the area he
chose or was given for this crime scene to be.
Yeah, eyewitnesses and surveillance footage in the
trailer park surrounding area drug store, which overseas the
trailer or nearby gas station can give us information on the
(39:39):
crime. It's amazing he knew that and
yet somehow got caught on every camera possible on his way to
and from Pullman, WA to Moscow, ID Kind of incredible.
But then again, it's a frame jobI'm scrolling through now.
(40:02):
That's the end of that exhibit of at least what I want to read
through again. I encourage you all.
To go look at these documents, read them, I will attach them to
the episode source material thatwill be on Autopsy of a
crime.substack.com. One of the other items in here
(40:27):
there, there's several attachments is the documentation
for Brian Koburger's vehicle title and something I noticed
which is interesting and it of course sound off in the
comments. I'm curious what you guys think
(40:49):
when I sign my name, I sign my first name and then my last
name. Am I the anomaly or do you do
the same? I notice on these documents for
his vehicle title, he signs his name, Brian C Koeberger.
His full name. I don't know, I found that
(41:10):
interesting. That's not the way I sign my
name. Maybe I'm the strange one here.
Let me let me know what you guysthink.
Additionally, this is him registering his vehicle in
Pullman, WA, which would change his license plate on his car
from a Pennsylvania license plate to a Washington license
(41:31):
plate. And this was filed on November
18th of 2022, just to refresh our memories.
There was seen the victims, the 911 call, everything was placed
November 13th of 2022. And that's likely when the
murders occurred. Sometime around 4:20 AM,
(41:52):
November 18th, he registers his vehicle in Washington, which
would change his license plate from one state to another and
could perhaps deter police that could potentially be looking for
him. But then again, you know, maybe
the person who framed him went and changed his license plate
(42:14):
and signed his name for him, Brian C Co Burger, never know.
And then we just have like some odometer disclosures.
It looks like he's a exempt fromsomething because the vehicle
has 115,000 miles on it. And then before we jump into the
(42:36):
documents with the drawing that Dylan Mortensen provided at the
end of this filing, we have a color photo of Brian Koburger's
license. And you know you have to sign
your name and then your signature is on your license as
well. I noticed again on his license
(42:59):
it is Brian C Koburger. And side note, he is an organ
donor and it looks like he changed his driver's license
from Pennsylvania to Washington and that's what these documents
(43:20):
are. And this was issued on July 1st
of 2022. He, it's issued as a transfer
Pennsylvania personal driver's license and he then obtained his
license in Washington state July.
(43:45):
I wonder why he didn't change his license plates then.
So then we're going to pop over here, we have another motion.
This is a defense's filing and adefense's motion, and this is
the reply to State's response todefendants in motion.
And Lamine still having a hard time with that word #7 regarding
(44:10):
witness identification by bushy eyebrows.
And we've talked about this before.
He's him and his defense team are trying to have a lot of
things blocked from what the jury is going to hear and is
going to see. One of the things I was reading
through is that he was requesting to explain his
(44:31):
appearance or how he may be perceived and his actions and
appearance that they had filed. Requesting that the defendant be
able to provide the jury with examples on his movements and
appearance and things like that,which seems very odd.
And the state is fighting that and says that it's not common,
(44:56):
it's not needed. There's a lot of other stuff in
there. But strange that he seems to be
concerned about how he will be perceived by the jury just
sitting in the courtroom lookingat him, observing him and his
movements and so on and so forth.
(45:16):
So again, of course they're attacking the bushy eyebrows and
this is a filing by his defense team.
I'm going to skip down to 1 portion of this.
It says the photo of Mr. Koeberger that the state
attached to its response is not relevant and is only
prejudicial. This is akin to the state trying
(45:38):
to identify Mr. Koeberger for DMor create its own cooperation
for her. DM previously said that she
could not identify him. Now, in the last episode, if you
haven't listened to it, we went over some of the many interviews
that she had with law enforcement.
And I could be wrong, maybe I hallucinated, but it seemed like
(46:03):
she was pretty sure that she hadseen this person in the home,
but she was intoxicated. She couldn't see their eyes and
stuff, which seemed to be confusing to her.
However, this person may have, or we're operating on the
assumption that this person had on a mask, which again, if
you're drunk and you're not expecting this, it would, it
(46:27):
would be confusing, I would imagine.
But this defense motion goes on to attack that DM stated she
could not identify him. It says there are literally
millions of people in the world who might be described as having
bushy eyebrows. The term itself is subjective
(46:50):
and DM has a fascination with drawing eyes and eyebrows.
It then mentions motions and exhibits.
This has been talked about a biton various outlets that she had
sketches all over her room. She tend to focus on eyes and
eyebrows. I mean perhaps that's why she
(47:13):
noticed his eyebrows. And of course, yes, there are
plenty of people who may be described as having bushy
eyebrows. However, what are the odds that
she feels this intruder she's seen had bushy eyebrows and then
the DNA on the knife sheath leads to a man with bushy
(47:35):
eyebrows. She also went on to say that he
was taller than her, maybe around 6 foot.
He was basketball player skinny.I mean, we're all we're hitting
kind of all the points of what his overall physical appearance
is. But they go on saying the DM
(47:58):
statements are being relied on by the state, did not employ a
witness identification procedure, so on, so on.
According to the state, DM's multiple descriptions of the
intruder were based on her own recollection and were not the
(48:19):
result of suggestive identification procedures
employed by law enforcement. Mr. Khoeberger points the court
the court to the following instances which are suggestive.
I'm assuming these interviews are recorded because they are
also referenced as exhibits, butwe have one in the second
(48:40):
interview. On November 13th 2022 DM was
interviewed at the Police Department by Detective Mowery
who inquired about facial features and asked DM if she
knew the color the intruders eyebrows were.
Detective Mallory is the person who mentioned quote eyebrows not
(49:01):
DM2. And the third interview on
November 17th, 2022, DM was interviewed by Detective Gooch
who asked DM if she knew what a Balkolava, which is that mask
sort of item that they have proof of him purchasing.
(49:22):
He asked if she knew what a balaclava was and showed her a
picture. In the fourth interview on
December 1st, 2022, DM drew the mask for the interviewer.
Copy of D Ms. drawing is attached and it is and I will
add that to the sub stack. They note it looks remarkably
(49:44):
similar to a balaclava. The state argues that DM is a
reliable witness should the court apply the five factor
Manson biggers, which is this isa case reference balancing tests
to evaluate witness reliability.It should not ignore either the
limited amount of time that DM had to view the intruder or her
(50:06):
state of intoxication. So, you know, let's, let's play
devil's advocate. I, it, I could see how it could
be problematic if this detectiveasked her, what about his
eyebrows? However, I can also see a point
of view or a world in which someone seen a person in their
(50:29):
house and you can't quite remember what you seen.
And, you know, maybe a detectivewould say, what about their
eyes? What about their nose?
Which it seems as though they are asking because in some of
these responses of her interviews, she says, I, I don't
remember seeing his mouth and remember seeing his nose.
(50:49):
I just remember thinking eyebrows.
So perhaps this detective did mention, OK, what about
eyebrows? Did you see his eyebrows?
Devil's advocate, I could see how it could be problematic and
maybe the defense can pose some sort of an argument on she clung
to eyebrows because she already had a tendency of drawing these
(51:10):
eyes and eyebrows. She had sketches all over her
room. And then when this detective
mentioned it, she just clung to it.
But what are the odds as the terrible luck Brian Koburger has
when the DNA on the sheath leadsto him, lo and behold, he has
bushy eyebrows. It's just the entire world must
(51:32):
be out to get him further on in this motion, it says DM saw the
intruder briefly in a dark hallway and in her own words,
she was probably quote very drunk and quote and tired when
she saw the intruder at 4:00 AM.Again, this is this is something
(51:53):
I've noticed they do in these documents.
They say 4:00 AM. However, we know that that is
not the time that the prosecution in the state is
claiming these murders took place.
So there's just very kind of sneaky little slide INS that
I've noticed the defense does insome of these documents.
This is one of them when she sawthe intruder at 4:00 AM.
(52:16):
The other documents, the state, I don't believe has ever said
4:00 AM. They're more specific on the
time. Should the court apply a
relevance test and weigh the reliability of DM?
Exclusion of the term quote, bushy eyebrows and quote is
appropriate for all of the reasons explained in the Manson
Biggers test and intoxication asreferenced and Almaraz.
(52:41):
So this is essentially a motion of them just throwing things at
the wall to see what sticks theywant.
Any mention of bushy eyebrows kept out of the trial.
And then at the very end, this is exhibit #11 and this looks
like a piece of notebook paper, the drawing that Dylan Mortensen
(53:04):
provided. Again, I'll add this to the sub
stack if you're curious. I'll also put links to the 70
plus pages and these other motions that we have.
But I'm torn, you know, I've been covering this and following
(53:25):
this case since November 13th of2022 when it hit every news
outlet imaginable and reading through this paper that he wrote
and knowing all of the educationhe had gone through, of course,
(53:46):
innocent until proven guilty. Should he be guilty?
I'm torn between two ideas. We know that there were some
references of visual snow. The defense is filed trying to
claim that he has some variationof autism.
I if he is guilty, if he's foundguilty, I wonder.
(54:12):
I'm curious and I can't, I don'treally have an, a formed opinion
either way, but I wonder, you know, and a lot of like serial
killers, a common thing that occurs is that they have a
tendency to harm animals when they're younger.
(54:32):
And I wonder did he always have this kind of, if he's guilty
that I'm speculating this is a theory.
Now we're talking theories. If he did this, did he always
have this kind of dark interest or desire to do something like
(54:56):
this? And that pushed him into the
criminology field to study this as sort of maybe a way to get
that thrill, and I'm using air quotes thrill.
It's disgusting. There's evil out there for sure.
(55:16):
And maybe he is one of those people.
But I wonder if he did this, didhe always have that sort of
darkness and that is why he wentinto this field and studied this
to such lengths or did getting into this field it just, he
(55:40):
became consumed and it's almost as though he this was treated as
some sort of a project to see how good he was if he could get
away with it. And I'm just torn between those
two ideas that if he is guilty and he did this was did he
always have this kind of, you know, for lack of a better way
(56:03):
to phrase this, Was he always kind of messed up and this was
the path that he was going to godown and that's why he studied
criminology? Or did he become so consumed
with his studies and thinking heknew everything and was an
expert that it made him want to commit a crime like this, maybe
(56:29):
as like a little project and a sick way to see if he could
master this and get away with it?
I don't know. I'm there are the two thoughts
that I have is, you know, was itall?
Was he always like this and that's why I went into the
field? Or did going into the field lead
to this because he's just so consumed with like the studying
(56:52):
and the specifics of all of this?
It's just, uh, I don't know, It's a thought that I have.
I'm just wondering and so much and I still am baffled by the
idea that their defenses, he wasframed.
(57:18):
Who? Why the amount of luck that this
framer would have had to have. Not only did they get his DNA on
the knife sheath, but they somehow managed to commit these
murders when he just so happenedto be out stargazing.
(57:38):
Maybe they had a tracker on his car and then somehow just so
magically had a vehicle just like his that was captured on
surveillance footage. And it just so happened his
phone disconnected from sending and receiving all data for a
certain block of time. And it just so happened that
(57:59):
that sort of that time period was when the police believe the
murders occurred. I just and baffled that this
could potentially really be the defense and they are going to
attempt to sell this to a jury of their peers without insulting
(58:22):
their intelligent intelligence and making these people feel
like you think I'm Boo Boo the fool.
So for now, that is what we have.
It's the main items that I wanted to discuss and kind of go
(58:43):
over from all of these documents.
There's also another motion filed in here and again, I'll
link everything that has numerous e-mail exchanges back
and forth between Bill Thompson and Ann.
There's another motion in here that stuck out to me because it
(59:06):
seems to be something in regard to a 3D model as a demonstrative
exhibit and the defendant in thedefense is trying to nitpick
this model. And it, it just struck me as
interesting, given that in that paper he wrote that's attached
(59:29):
to another motion, he extensively goes over how a
model of a crime scene can be made.
The software that can be used, the measurements that, you know,
this would equal this. It's it's not, you know, to
(59:52):
scale. It is a reconstruction.
He goes into crime scene sketches as well.
So the fact that there is an entire motion dedicated to
something about a model, it stuck out to me.
There's other emotions in here as well for experts that the
state intends to call. And there's nothing really that
(01:00:15):
tells us what any of this is we can assume, but it's essentially
just a list of many reports and then specifically listed lab
reports. You know, we have lab report
one, lab report 3, lab report 8.And it's just many, many
(01:00:38):
reports. And I, I'm sure there was a lot
of investigative and testing that that needed to be done that
they're going to go over and then they're just notifying
defense that hey, these are the experts we're going to call and
these are the exhibits and lab results we're going to have them
go over. So for now, that's what we have.
(01:01:02):
I'm still baffled that we were under a gag order.
This entire case was under a gagorder for so long and yet
they're making or they're allowing certain items now to
come to light before the trial even starts.
And it makes me wonder if at some point down the road are we
going to see the defense try to delay yet again and say, oh,
(01:01:23):
even though we were granted a change of venue, you know, now
some of these documents have gotten out and we're just not
able to find a non prejudicial jury pool.
It wouldn't shock me at this point.
OK, we're we're at almost an hour.
I'm going to wrap this up. Thank you guys for listening.
(01:01:45):
I will link the episode Show notes are the sub stack for
autopsy of a crime in the description below so that you
too can review this documents these documents if you want to
Thank you very much for listening.
Please stay safe and stay healthy.
Stay alert. All of the things.
(01:02:07):
It is a scary world out there and I will be back soon with a
new episode. Bye.
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The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.