Justice for Crystal Rogers

I'm baaaaack! We're headed back to Bardstown, Kentucky, for a HUGE update on missing mother Crystal Rogers. There has been one trial so far, with two more defendants scheduled to be tried shortly. Finally, Crystal Rogers and her family may know justice. 

SOURCES

https://www.whas11.com/article/news/investigations/bardstown/crystal-rogers-disappearance-investigation-timeline-bardstown/417-3974f9aa-f845-4d67-a00c-fad30c803657
https://www.whas11.com/article/news/investigations/bardstown/crystal-rogers-death-investigation-suspects-trial-case-updates-latest/417-bbef69d8-d318-4d33-8633-c9d4e19fe146
CI, 23-CR-00309, COMMONWEALTH VS. HOUCK, BROOKS WILLIAM
https://interactive.whas11.com/pdfs/Commonwealthresponse.PDF
https://interactive.whas11.com/pdfs/def-brooks-houcks-sur-reply-in-opposition-to-motion.pdf 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Hey, hey, welcome back to Autumn's oddities. I'm still Autumn.
Did you miss me? I certainly did miss you. I
do realize that it's been a hot freaking minute since
you've heard from me, and that's because there have been
some major changes in my life. I started a job

(00:54):
that requires travel and doesn't put out a schedule until
three days before each visit. I'm running a team of dentists, assistants,
and hygienis, and we travel to various schools around the state,
mainly in underserved areas, like places where you know, they
have to drive like two hours to a city to

(01:14):
see a dentist because they don't have one, or they
don't have one that takes their insurance, you know, YadA YadA.
So like, I have a whole ass dental clinic in
a van in my garage. Currently. It's legit, and my
position requires a massive, massive amount of attention to detail
and procedure and uploading and so on and so forth.

(01:36):
I won't bore you, you know, with the details, but
it was very difficult to get the hang of, just
say the least. That said, it is mentally and physically exhausting.
We unload roughly five hundred pounds of equipment in and
out of schools multiple times per day sometimes, and oh yeah,

(01:57):
we're treating children, a lot of whom have never been
seen by a dentist before and are terrified. It's really
the most rewarding job that I've ever had, and I
hope to retire with this company. So I hope that
you can understand that the only free time I've had
has been spent with my kids and family and just
you know, trying to keep my head above water and

(02:19):
as a neurodivergent person, trying to stop looking at news
cycles so much, because god, it's a lot right now.
I think now, since I have a much better handle
on things and how to budget my time, I think
I'll be able to start the podcast back up. I'm
probably going to drop down to one episode per week again,

(02:42):
Like I'm with my kids this summer. That was the
point of me taking this job. I have, I follow
a school schedule, and I have summers and you know,
holidays off. It's great and we're you know, we're all
just out here trying our best am the right. So
I wanted to restart the show with a really huge

(03:04):
case update on my first episode actually the disappearance of
Crystal Rogers. While those facing trial are presumed innocent until
proven guilty, and one of them has been proven guilty,
I think you could probably guess at least one of
the three defendants being charged with the murder of Crystal Rogers.

(03:25):
So let's get into this because a whole lot has
gone down since I recorded my first episode. So if
you haven't listened to the very first episode on my feed,
I'd recommend going back and doing so, because I'm not
going to go back into every detail again. I'm just
gonna do like a little recap, so you know, just

(03:47):
a refresher on July third, twenty fifteen. July third, twenty
fifteen was the last day that Chris Stool Rogers, a
mother of five from Bardstown, Kentucky, was seen alive. Two
days later, she was reported missing by her parents after

(04:09):
Cristel's children were unable to reach her. They knew she'd
been with her boyfriend Brooks how and the baby that
they shared, and Brooks, who according to Cristel's mom, was
never alone with the baby, was playing mister mom and
also Cristel didn't go anywhere without the baby. Brooks was

(04:30):
pretty nonchalant about the mother of his child's absence, and
he agreed that Cristel's mom should go ahead and report
her missing. Cristel's family immediately began to search for her,
but all they found was her car. They found it
parked along the Bluegrass Parkway with a flat tire, and
inside were her keys, phone, and purse, which of course

(04:53):
not a good sign. The discovery of Crystel's abandoned vehicle
and of course her important belongings set in motion of
police investigation as well as a just massive, several years
long land search to find her. On July eighth, twenty fifteen,
Brooks Howke was questioned by Nelson County Sheriff's Office Detective

(05:16):
John Snow. He called Steve Lawson, who will later be
arrested in this case. Brooks's brother, who was a Bardstown
police officer at the time. His name was Nick Hawk
or is Nick Howk called his brother in the middle
of the interview and advised him to stop speaking to police, which,
of course Brooks did, finding it odd and borderline, you know,

(05:42):
an impediment to their investigation. Kentucky State Police detectives question
Nick Hawk about Crystal's disappearance, and of course that phone
call that he made to his brother during the interview.
He also agreed to take a polygraph test, which he failed.
Was publicly presumed dead on October fifteenth, twenty sixteen by

(06:04):
Ed Maddingly, who was the sheriff at the time. To
almost no one's surprise, Cristel's ex boyfriend, Brooks Houck, was
named the main suspect, Nick Hawk. His brother was also
fired from the Bardstown Police Department for you guessed it,
impeding the investigation, which, of course he did do. During

(06:26):
all of this, Tommy Ballard, Cristel's father, he continued to
lead the search for his daughter, you know, on horseback,
on ATVs, putting up posters around town, just amassing all
of his own evidence and creating a file. He and
her mother spoke to any news outlet that would have them.
They organized teams of searchers, and they were relentless in

(06:48):
their pursuit. Ballard had also begun requesting surveillance footage from
around town and people were giving it to him. You know,
why are they going to tell him no, There's no
reason to tell him no. It's a father, a local
man looking for his missing daughter. Who has five children,
and he had apparently amassed a gargantuan pile of evidence

(07:08):
regarding his daughter's potential fate. Clearly, Tommy got too close
to finding something that someone didn't want him to and
on November nineteenth, twenty sixteen, as he was preparing for
a hunting trip with his twelve year old grandson on
family property next to the Bluegrass Parkway, and assassin fired

(07:30):
one shot and hit Ballard in the chest, killing him instantly.
His death also remains unsolved. But again I think we
could take a wild guess at who was involved. And Okay,
I got some review like right before I stopped podcasting
about me being biased. These people are on trial again.
They are presumed innocent, but based on the evidence at hand,

(07:57):
I'm coming to a rational conclusion. It's not an in
die in any way, shape or form. It's all to
say the evidence points a certain way, and I think
I think I think a jury will agree. Then human
remains were found in late July twenty twenty. They were
discovered near the Hawk family farm, and that's at the

(08:20):
border of Nelson and Washington County, and that farm is
one of the last locations that Crystal Rogers was seen
alive at in August twenty twenty, the FBI went ahead,
they stepped in, and they took over the Crystal Rogers case.
And I kind of suspect that they stepped in because
of the fact that there was a local police officer

(08:42):
related to, you know, the main suspect, and he had
already impeded the case. So agents executed search warrants at
the homes of brooks Howke and his brother Nick, who
again was a police officer in Bardstown at the time.
The FBI also searched crystals storage unit and conducted their

(09:03):
first search, like I said, of the Hawk family farm.
After another multi day search, federal agents found items of
interest what those are, don't know under a driveway in
the Woodlawn Springs subdivision. I'm having a hard time saying that,
which had been built by the Hawk family. Documents showed

(09:26):
how Grintal's LLC, of which brooks Howck was the registered agent.
That means like, if somebody's going to file a lawsuit
against you and serve you with that lawsuit, you would
look up the registered agent and serve them at whatever
addresses there. So they also owned three homes in woodlawn,
including two on the street blocked off by the FBI.

(09:48):
On October twenty first, twenty twenty two, FBI agents concluded
a second search of the two hundred and forty five
acre Hawk family farm. That's a lot of land to
hide something. After five days, the evidence collected during the
search was sent to the FBI's lab in Quantico to
be analyzed. Of course, the agency did not disclose what

(10:10):
evidence was found, but you know, that's pretty standard procedure
during this kind of investigation. They don't run to the
press and be like, we got it, we got the
smoking gun. Well, I mean, that would be good if
they had it, but they don't. So. On January twentieth,
twenty twenty three, Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron appointed Hardin
County Commonwealth's Attorney Shane Young as special counsel to aid

(10:33):
in the prosecution of criminal charges. In a trio of
mysterious deaths in Bardstown and Again, I covered those in
the first episode. I even covered two additional homicides that
are unsolved. They're all very strange and I think there
is a potential link between them. Those include Crystal's case,

(10:54):
Tommy Ballard, and Jason Ellis, a Bardstown police officer who
was murdered in an amb bush in twenty thirteen, and
again I go into his murder in detail in my
first episode, but investigators did believe that they were linked. Shockingly,
on June twenty first, twenty twenty three, someone was indicted

(11:15):
in connection with Crystal Rogers murder. After all that time,
a grand jury indicted a Nelson County man, one thirty
two year old Joseph Lawson, on two charges, conspiracy to
commit murder and of course tampering with physical evidence. The
charges were tied to an incident, and I'm going to
explain the incident that took place on the fourth of

(11:36):
July weekend in twenty fifteen, and of course that's the
same weekend that Cristal was reported missing by her family.
The indictment, which does not mention Crystal by name, says
the crime was committed in Nelson County on or about
July third or fourth, twenty fifteen, when loss in quote
agreed to aid one or more persons in the planning

(11:59):
or commission of the crime, or an attempt or solicitation
to commit the crime, when he and or a co
conspirator intentionally caused the death of another. Kentucky State Police
executed an arrest warrant for this Lawson in August of
twenty twenty three. After his arrest, Lawson's attorney confirmed that

(12:22):
the charges were indeed connected to Crystal Rogers disappearance. Lawson
was not charged with her murder, but prosecutors instead charged
him with the lesser offense of conspiracy, meaning that they
believe he was involved in some fashion with whoever did
kill her. The maximum sentence for the conspiracy charge is

(12:43):
ten to twenty years in prison. The indictment also charged
Lawson with complicity to tamper with physical evidence when he
quote destroyed, mutilated, concealed, removed, or altered physical evidence, and
the maximum penalty for that charge is one to five
years in prison. And I feel like that should be longer.

(13:05):
What do I know? What do I know? I'm just
some bitch with a microphone. Then, on September twenty seventh,
twenty twenty three, the FBI in Louisville arrested Crystal's ex boyfriend,
Brooks Howck. He'd been charged with complicity to murder and
tampering with physical evidence. According to an indictment in Nelson
County Circuit Court, and his cash bond was set at

(13:27):
ten million dollars. On October fifth, twenty twenty three, brooks
Howck was arraigned. During the proceedings, the prosecution they dropped
it a little bit of a bombshell. They revealed that
they believed that they were in fact in possession of
the firearm used to kill Tommy Ballard. So here's what

(13:48):
happened in court. The judge asked Special Prosecutor Shane Young
if they were investigating any other cases that might be
linked to Crystal's case, citing concerns for witnesses say and
Yah Duh. Young said that they were also investigating Tommy
Ballard's death and did believe that the two homicides were connected.

(14:09):
Again a dooy, He said, they believed that they were
indeed in possession or are in possession of the gun
that killed Tommy, Crystal's father, who again was mysteriously shot
and killed while standing on his freaking property. And I've
watched a crime scene reconstructionist, somebody who specializes in ballistics

(14:30):
and trajectory and all of that say that they believe
that the person who shot Tommy Ballard parked on the
side of the Bluegrass Parkway. Sounds familiar. Literally set up
in a tree on the edge of his property, like
put a long rifle on a branch or something like
some sort of tripod and shot him from there. And

(14:52):
it seemed that Tommy saw the shooter before the shot
was fired, because he threw the grandson out of the
way and he took the shot. But again, I don't
think the grandson was the target. Young said they purchased
the gun from Nick Hawk and are currently testing it.
So I'm guessing they haven't released all the details of
how they acquired the gun. They said they purchased it.

(15:15):
I'm guessing that they sent somebody in, some agent and
had him broker a deal with Nick Hawk to buy
the gun, and now they have it as evidence, and
they do believe that it is the gun that killed
Crystal's father, Nick Hawk. But again, Brooks's brother, former Bardstown
police officer. He was fired after then police chief Rick

(15:36):
McCubbin said that he interfered the investigation. I know I
already said that, but it bears repeating. So Young said,
the firearm that we purchased from Nicholas Hawk, who was
using a fake name when he sold the rifle, adding
that the caliber of the rifle matched the one that
killed Tommy. He said that there are five criteria that
they look at and so far the gun matched four

(15:58):
out of the five, so sounding like it is indeed
the correct gun. Till Ballard, whose Crystal's grandfather, said, it
felt real good to hear these bombshells in the courtroom,
and I'm sure it did. They've already said. The whole
family said that they suspected it from the start that
it was Brooks Hawke's brother who shot and killed Tommy Ballard,

(16:21):
but of course they couldn't prove it, and I think
purchasing the murder weapon from him, it's it doesn't look good,
I'll say that much. No, it's not like it's not
like an eyewitness account or anything, but it's pretty damn close.
In October of twenty twenty three, Brooks Howke's attorneys attempted
to have Judge Charles Simms removed from the case due

(16:44):
to alleged bias. The claims stem from comments that Judge
Sims made in twenty seventeen while presiding over a custody
case involving Hawke's girlfriend. At the time. I'm not going
to say her name. This bitch has a whole other
bag of issues. She was died in twenty seventeen for
driving around Bardstown and the surrounding areas and ripping down

(17:05):
the missing posters that Crystal's family had put up. Now,
who the hell would do something like that and to
what end? To what end? That little maneuver didn't work
out for the defense, as the Kentucky Supreme Court ruled
that Judge Sims would be allowed to remain on the
bench for the Hawk murder case. And duh, she's not

(17:25):
part of the trial, she's not a named defendant. I
know I'm saying dull lot, but like these are super
obvious things. The court also upheld Hawke's ten million dollars bond,
which his defense team argued was oppressive and should be lowered.
And to that, I say, I think there's you know,
it's more oppressive to murder a mother of five and
then disappear her and to never give her family any peace,

(17:47):
and then also to have her father murdered. But what
do I know now? Remember, Crystal's remains have never been found,
but the investigators, they have not given up. I'm going
to mention more searches now and later on. In December
of twenty twenty three, the FBI and Kentucky State Police
conducted a massive dig in Nelson County. The search was

(18:10):
tied to at least one of three unsolved thomicide cases
in Bardstown, the ones that I just mentioned. The FBI
and the KSP focused their search on a wooded area
off of Thompson Hill Road in Cox's Creek, and that's
just south of Mount Washington, near the Nelson and Bullet
County line, so literally right near where Crystal disappeared. Special

(18:36):
Prosecutor Shane Young said his office initiated this search in
connection to one of those three unsolved murders in Bardstown,
which I already mentioned, ambushed police officer Jason Ellis, Crystal
Rogers or her father, Tommy Ballard. And again, if you
don't remember Jason Ellis, I'll explain it a little bit.
He was a police officer who had just finished his

(18:57):
shift and was on his way home. He took the
same route home every day, but on that particular day,
there was like a downed tree or a huge branch
lying in the middle of his exit ramp, so he
had to stop the car, and when he got out
to move it, he was shot and killed from a distance,
presumably by a sniper. Now does that sound familiar? Did

(19:20):
we test Nick Howk's gun for that murder as well?
His murder has also never been solved, but investigators have
speculated that someone in law enforcement was involved, as Ellis
had been working to bust a local drug ring. And also,
how did they know the route that he took home
every day and exactly when he was going to be leaving.

(19:41):
I'm taking a wild guess that they knew his schedule
or had access to it, So again, most likely someone
in law enforcement. It was apparently the first time that
back to the Nelson County dig that that particular piece
of property had been searched, and passers by I saw
heavy excavation equipment digging and a barrage of unmarked law

(20:02):
enforcement vehicles. There's a house on the property, but a
neighbor said that it's been vacant for a while now
It's unclear if that home was searched as well. Till Ballard,
Tommy's father and Crystal's grandfather, rushed to the search site
as soon as he learned of the new development. He

(20:23):
said that he believed that investigators were looking for Crystal,
and his logic is really sound. He said, I believe
it has to be Crystal's remains because Jason Ellis they
buried him and we buried Tommy, so she's the only
one in Nelson County that's left. And he's exactly right,
he said, I just hope the day comes that we
can get her remains and bury her, and everybody that's

(20:45):
involved in this pays for it for the rest of
their lives. And I fully agree with him. While it
remains to be seen if anything of evidentiary value was
found during that search, investigators did find yet another conspirator.
On December eighth, twenty twenty three, a third man, Steve Lawson,

(21:07):
was arrested and charged in the case. Steve Lawson, just
like how and the other Lawson, were linked to Crystal's death,
citing an incident on that same weekend. Court records show
Stephen Lawson was indeed indicted on two charges they're the
same ones as the other two defendants, Conspiracy to commit

(21:27):
murder and tampering with physical evidence. The charges, again stem
from an incident over the fourth of July weekend in
twenty fifteen. One investigators say that he, either acting alone
or with others, mutilated, concealed, or destroyed physical evidence, and
or aided a person in the planning or commission of

(21:48):
a crime causing the death of another person, that person
being Crystal Rogers. So you've now heard me say two Lawsons.
Who are the Lawsons? Well, Stephen Lawson was mentioned in
one of the very first police interviews between Nelson County
Detective John Snow and the main suspect in Cristel's disappearance,

(22:09):
Brooks how The interrogation took place inside the Nelson County
Sheriff's Department. The detective had asked who was on the
other end of the line during a late night phone
call on the night Crystal disappeared, Because of course, they
subpoenaed phone records, both Crystal's and Brooks's, and they found
a very late night phone call on the night that

(22:30):
Crystal disappeared. They're like, how strange. You know he said
he was sleeping. So this is part of the transcript.
Detective Snow says, who's Steve Lawson and brooks Howck replies,
Steve Lawson works for me. Hawke told the detective he
couldn't remember why Stephen had called him so late. Then
he picked up his phone and called him from inside

(22:50):
the interrogation room. Hawke said, the other night you called
me really, really late. I can't remember what you were
calling me about. Is this an improv show or we're
gonna yes? And like, what the fuck are you doing, dude?
Stephen Lawson told Hawk that he called him how strange
with a question about rental properties, to which Hawk replied

(23:10):
he had to ask Crystal. Halck allegedly told Lawson that
he'd phone Crystal and, you know, ask her the question
and then he would get back to him. So, Detective Snow, realizing,
you know, things aren't adding up here, he had to
think about that answer, and then he asked a follow
up question regarding an earlier statement that Brooks Howk had made.

(23:32):
If you remember, how claimed that he and Cristal were
in his truck sometime around midnight, around the time of
the call, headed home from a barbecue on his family farm.
Snow had a follow up question, he said, so that
begs the question in my mind. If she Crystal is

(23:54):
in the truck next to you when laws and called,
why would you need to call her, and that's when
I would jump up and yell. I'd like slam my
fists on the table and scream, gotcha bitch. That's me anyway,
I don't know. That's why I'm not a cop, because
I'd just be screaming gotcha bitch at everybody. So, with
three suspects finally charged in Crystal's death, the defendants appeared

(24:17):
in court together. The proceedings resulted in a trial date
that was set for some time in twenty twenty five.
The prosecutor wanted to try all three defendants together, but
of course that didn't happen because you know, that would
have been too expeditious. And oh yeah, all of the
men attempted to have their bonds reduced by half and
all were denied. And if I were the judge, I'd

(24:39):
be like, fuck no, I would not have reduced their
bond either. I'd be like, why so you can kill
and disappear me the second you make bail. That's a
no for me. Dog Like. On the real though, that's
what would have most likely happened. Somebody would have a
sniper would have taken them out. The judge. Attorneys for
the defendants also shot their shots and attempted to have
their clients dismiss from the case or at the very

(25:01):
least to have their testimony excluded from evidence. But again
that didn't work out for them. And if you're asking
why an attorney would do that, it's because if they
don't and their client is found guilty, the client will
most likely cite ineffective assistance of council to potentially get
a retrial. So defense attorneys have to file just a
shit ton of motions so that they can say, hey,

(25:24):
I did all I could and you were still found guilty.
And again the client, most likely, even if they are guilty,
will try and cite ineffective assistance council. Everything will be
reviewed to see if indeed counsel wasn't effective. But you know,
if they filed all of these motions, they're fine. So again,
attorneys for Brooks How filed emotion for change of venue,

(25:47):
which was a request to move the trial out of
Nelson County. And this is very, very standard stuff. An
attorney will ask for a change of venue when they
don't feel their client will receive a fair trial in Core,
of course, you know, in the town, city whatever where
the crimes were committed. And in this case, I do
think a venue change was appropriate because you know, you

(26:08):
don't want a possible appeal down the line after conviction
with the claim of an unfair trial or you know,
jury nullification. Bardstown and the surrounding cities and counties, with
the exception of Louisville, are very small, and of course
people did know the Hawk family there, and also they're
very wealthy. It could have swayed either way. And trust
me when I say everyone knows about Crystal Rogers disappearance

(26:32):
around these parts. Then in March of twenty twenty four,
we're getting we're almost caught up, We're almost kind up.
Stephen Lawson followed suit, requesting that his trial be moved
to a different county as well. During that particular hearing, though,
court documents once again tied Crystal's case to Tommy Ballard's
death investigation. They're like, we're not letting this one go.

(26:53):
You think that we're just going to let a man
get sniped in front of his grandchild and his own
property while searching for his most likely dead daughter, We're
not letting it slide. So finally, also in March of
twenty twenty four, Joseph lawson was the final suspect to
ask for his trial, And in case you're wondering, I
don't know if I mentioned it, Steven's the father Joseph

(27:15):
his son, the final suspect, asked for his trial to
be moved out of Nelson County. In March of twenty
twenty four, also, Special Prosecutor Shane Young filed a motion
to consolidate the suspect's trials into one, you know, to
reduce the cost and of course, to free up the
court's time. But Houck's attorney objected to Young's motion to

(27:36):
combine the trials. And here's why. The attorney claimed, the
prosecutor lacks proof that Crystal Rogers is dead. Give me break.
She was declared dead and if she is dead, quote
these are his words, they can do no more than
guess at who killed her, how she died, why she died,
and where she died. Okay. The attorney went on to

(27:57):
say that there is quote no crime scene weapon or
realistic motive for the alleged crime. Ms. Rogers's body has
never been found. So to summarize and wade through all
that bullshit, he said that if you're really good at
hiding a body and concealing evidence that you shouldn't be
tried for murder. You know, even if there's a mountain
of circumstantial evidence, like what do they want? Do they

(28:19):
want a videotape of it? Do they want all three
of them to confess? What do they want? Come on?
If that were the case, nobody, a great majority of
people would never be tried and convicted for murder. So,
according to I'm hones spiel, according to court documents, the
investigators desperately needed to solve the case. And this is
this is you know, the defense attorney talking despite quote

(28:42):
evidentiary problems. The attorney said, quote the nearly nine year
law enforcement nine years law enforcement has spent digging up
subdivisions and farmland across Nelson County tells a different story
about what they know. It tells me they were looking
for evidence, and they said, did find things of evidentiary value,
and oh yeah, they also found the gun that killed

(29:04):
Tommy Ballard and it belonged to the brother of your
client anyway. Yeah, But because of that lack of evidence,
the attorney claimed that detectives and the prosecutors targeted the
law sense to build a case against Howck, and you
can decide whether or not you think there was any

(29:27):
sway by law enforcement here. The attorney said that the
interviews of Stephen Lawson and Joseph Lawson demonstrate a get
Brooks mentality that colored every decision made by law enforcement
in the investigation. To that, I say, Brooks Howck was
the father of Crystal's infant child, the last person known

(29:48):
to be seen, you know, with her alive, and wholly
unconcerned at her absence, like didn't seem to give a
flying fuck, and instead of helping the investigation, he clammed up.
All of it seems strange. And then Crystal's father is
shot by a fucking sniper because he was getting close

(30:12):
to the answer. And I think that's the same reason
that Jason Ellis was shot as well. So the documents
include multiple transcripts with police detectives, including one statement that reads,
quote whether you killed her or not wouldn't be our concern.
End quote. I don't care what your role was. I
don't care Joey's role. You go home. So the police,

(30:33):
of course, are also sidebar. Police are allowed to lie
to you. They're allowed to lie to you during an
interrogation They're allowed to say whatever they want to you.
It doesn't matter as long as you were mirandized and
they followed civil procedure. They can say literally whatever they
want to you. They can lie to these people unless
there's a signed document indicating there's a deal on the table.

(30:56):
There's not. Unless there's a signed document saying you have immunity,
there's no immunity. They're just saying whatever they need to
say to get these guys to talk. They're trying to
be nonchalant, like, I don't even care, it's not my
concern if you had anything to do with murdering or
I don't care what your role is. You get to
go home if you wrap Brooks out. Well, what motive

(31:20):
do Steve and Joseph Lawson did or did they have
to kill Crystal Rogers other than someone that they work
for asking them to, you know, put two and two together.
I'm not good at math, but I know the answer
to that question. It's for see, I did it. According

(31:42):
to those new documents, Steve Lawson has given more than
twenty hours of police testimony that are quote full of inconsistencies,
later admitted lies and responses to leading questions aimed at
implicating Brooks in the disappearance of Crystal. Rogers agreed, not great,
doesn't look good, but again he wasn't. Neither of them

(32:03):
were promised immunity, so why would they not just give
out little bits of information at a time rather than
fully implicate themselves. So Prosecutor Young still urged the three
defendants to be tried together, but the defense attorney claimed
that combining the trial would be built against halk Well,
it already is. They're all charged with the same thing, dude,

(32:26):
using information that was gathered during a quote biased investigation,
using quote coercive interrogation tactics. No, nothing, everything was done
above board, otherwise you would be able to have your
client dismissed from the case point flank period. Young also
noted that all three suspects filed motions to move the

(32:47):
trial outside of Nelson County. Their attorneys argued their clients
wouldn't receive a fair trial due to the investigation that
was unfolding in the public eye over the course of
several many years, and Young said that if the trial
was moved to another county that it would be another
reason to hold a joint trial, which he's got a

(33:07):
good point. It's like, well, what does it matter if
you're tried together? Nobody knows you there, so who cares.
Howke's attorney asked the judge to deny the prosecutor's request
to combine the trial out of convenience, writing quote, the
inconvenience does not outweigh each of these defendants constitutional right
to a fair trial, especially when such gravely serious charges

(33:28):
are involved. I agree with him. I agree with them
on that one. He's right. So on March twenty fifth,
twenty twenty four, Brooks how and Steve Lawson appeared in court,
but really no decisions were made at that hearing. However,
all the attorneys did agree that the Crystal Rogers trial
should be moved out of Nelson County. Judge Simms requested,

(33:50):
He's like, okay, just just move this shit. I don't
care anymore. I'm tired of be bickering. He's like, just
find a courtroom large enough for public viewing and something
that has a separate entrance for jury, and I'll be fine.
It took them about a month, but the attorney selected
Christian County as a potential location for the trial to
be moved to. The Christian County Circuit Court is located

(34:10):
in Hopkinsville, which is about two hours from Bardstown. And
I mentioned that Steve Lawson's attorneys claimed that you know,
he was made a lot of promises in exchange for
testimony implicating Brooks how in Crystal's murder. And on June thirteenth,
twenty twenty four, clips of Steve Lawson's interview with police
were played in court as attorneys argued whether he was

(34:33):
truthful in his testimony in exchange for immunity. Steve Lawson's
argument for promised immunity shed light on a previous search
in Nelson County. And again, they can say that they're
going to give you immunity unless you have a deal
in your hand from the prosecutor or the DA or

(34:53):
whoever hands them out in whatever state you're in, you
don't have immunity. So detectives digging on December sixth, twenty
twenty three, because in some of those conversations with law enforcement,
Lawson Steve Lawson said that he saw his son, Joseph Lawson,
and another man quote burning and digging on the farm,

(35:16):
being the Hawke family farm. Within days of Crystal Rodgers
disappearance poetically on the nine year anniversary of Crystal's disappearance,
Judge Simms denied Steve Lawson's motion to drop his charges.
In July of twenty twenty four, Brooks Howke was back
in court, attempting to keep his trial separate from the

(35:38):
Lawson's trial. Trioles I should say. Joseph Lawson followed suit,
and he appeared in a court hearing over Zoom for
a status hearing. He wanted to keep his trial separate
from his father's, but Judge Simms pushed the hearing back
to August eighth, when both Lawsons would be back in court,
and no decision again was made on a or a

(36:00):
final location for the trial. I know there's a lot
of dates, but I want to get it right. August eighth,
twenty twenty four, both the Lawsons were back in court,
but before the hearing began, Steve Lawson informed the judge
that he fired his attorney, Ted Labbott. He claimed that
Labbott had been working with attorneys for another suspect charged

(36:21):
in Roger's death. Prosecutors agreed with Lawson, saying, you know
it does not appear that he was conflict free counsel.
When when you are offered a case at a law firm,
you are sent an email by the partner and it
says like it says conflict. Like it's like a conflict sheet.

(36:42):
You all the names of the people involved, attorneys, the company,
the defendant, so on and so forth are on that list,
and if you know them, have had interaction with them,
really anything, you're conflicted out of the case and you
have to let the partner know that, no, I can't
work on this case. I have a conflict. So that's

(37:03):
how that works. August twenty second, twenty twenty four, Steve
Lawson's new attorneys one Darren Wolf and Zach Butler told
the judge, Hey, we don't know if we can, you know,
start the trial on time, because of course they walked
into a shit storm of evidence and discovery and they
would of course need to come through that to accurately

(37:25):
represent their client. Then, in September of twenty twenty four,
the FBI searched yet another property in Nelson County for
three days looking for Crystal's body. The property was formerly
owned by Brooks and Nick Houke's grandmother, Anna Whiteside's They
obviously did not find her or I know I would

(37:46):
have heard about it again, I live so close. Then
a whole bunch of outstanding decisions were finally made. The
judge is like, I want all this off my plate.
I want you fuckers on trial. On October fourth, twenty
twenty four, the judge decided that some police interviews wouldn't
be heard at Steve Lawson's trial, which is fine. However,

(38:06):
his grand jury testimonies would be because he made that
testimony under oath. Judge Charles Simms then ruled that the
Crystal Rogers murder trial would be moved one hundred miles
south to Warren County. Finally, Judge Sims ruled that Steve
Lawson's trial would be separate from the trial for his son,

(38:28):
Joseph Lawson and Brooks Howck, who would be tried together.
And with that, the trial date for Steve Lawson was
set for February tenth, twenty twenty five. The trial for
Joseph Lawson and Brooks Howck was and still is currently
set for late June. It has not happened yet, as expected,
Judge Simms approved emotion to delay Steve Lawson's trial by

(38:51):
three months. Of course, as His attorneys argued that there
was just an overwhelming amount of evidence in this case.
It's several many years worth, so there was no way
that you know it was going to happen. By February eleventh,
the new trial was scheduled for May twenty seventh, twenty
twenty five. So it just happened. On March twenty sixth,
twenty twenty five, the judge approved Special Prosecutor Shane Young's

(39:14):
motion to test two strands of hair for DNA that
were found inside Crystal's abandoned car nearly a decade ago.
Why they weren't tested, I don't know. I have no
idea they had them. I guess they weren't tested. I
could guess, so. Uh. The next day, a new court
document was revealed by the Kentucky State Police and they

(39:38):
said they found a third hare which appeared to be
similar to Crystal Rogers and it was inside the trunk
of a how family member's car in twenty sixteen. Yeah,
and one of the suspects pushed back against the new
DNA testing. They didn't want that. I wonder why. On
April third, twenty twenty five, Prosecutor Young Ung remanded his

(40:01):
request to DNA test the hairs found in Roger's car,
but Steve Lawson's attorneys said, go ahead and test the hair,
you know, because maybe there's a potential new suspect in
her in her murder. Maybe it's none of these guys. No,
you know what, I think he was hoping that it
would be Brooks or Nick Howks and that he could

(40:21):
just get out of it. On April fourteenth, twenty twenty five,
Steve Lawson's attorneys argued to thoroughly test the two hairs.
They're like, y'all better Tozzel's hairs, accusing the defense or
the prosecutors accused his defense of using the tests as
a fishing expedition to delay his trial by months, which, yeah,

(40:41):
that's probably what was going on. On April eighteenth, twenty
twenty five, Judge Simms denied Steve Lawson's requests to DNA
test the two hairs found in Crystal's car again they're
probably hers. And finally, on May twenty seventh, twenty twenty five,
the first trial began. During that trial, Steve Lawson accused

(41:05):
his own son, Joseph Lawson, of driving Crystal's car, but
apparently he needed help when the tire got flat near
mile mark or fourteen. Rogers read sedan was found abandoned
there just days after her disappearance, again with all of
her belongings still inside. So Lawson took the stand and
testified that how this is Steve Lawson wanted Rogers gone

(41:29):
and explained how he told him he would need to
talk to another man about it. The other man testified
earlier that Steve Lawson told him that HOWK wanted her
gone and advised how to call him. Steve Lawson's cell
phone data was another crucial piece of evidence for the prosecution.

(41:50):
Lawson's trial began with his defense conceding that he was
indeed guilty of tampering when he went to the Bluegrass
Parkway to pick up his son, Joseph Lawson. He also
admitted to moving the driver's seat up. During the trial,
detectives who interviewed Lawson said he initially told them that
he was at home the night of Crystal's disappearance, but

(42:14):
his phone's location showed otherwise. Reports showed Lawson's phone pinged
at a property on Thompson Hill Road for around four
hours overnight on July third, going into July fourth, twenty fifteen.
The FBI has previously searched that property, like I said,
in hopes of finding her body. Experts also testified about

(42:38):
several deleted calls on his phone around the time Crystal disappeared.
They also talked about a series of calls the night
that Crystal disappeared between Steve Lawson, his son, his ex
wife Tammy, and Brooks Howck. Among those calls the night
or that night was a thirteen second conversation between Steve

(42:58):
Lawson and Brooks Howck. Investigators said shortly after that called Howck,
Lawson's phone was traced back to the Bluegrass Parkway. Lawson
told the jury that that call was to let Hawk
know Roger's car had been moved, although he originally told
investigators it was to ask about rental properties. He also

(43:19):
said he lied throughout the investigation to protect his son,
but he was not lying to protect brooks Howck, and
that I believe, even though he's a liar, I believe
that part. Juror spent about two hours deliberating their verdict,
ultimately finding Steve Lawson guilty on both counts. The two

(43:39):
other men, Brooks Howck and Joseph Lawson of course, Who's
Stephen Lawson's son will stand trial for charges related to
Crystal Rogers murder starting June twenty fourth, and I have
a feeling that this particular trial will take a bit
longer to get through and reach a verdict, but I
will keep you posted. Woo. Okay, the first episode, Yeah,

(44:04):
we were speculating. We were speculating, hipply. And when I
say we, I mean me, I was indeed speculative. But
again it was based on well, I mean, it was
kind of based on hearsay at the time and some
circumstantial evidence. Okay, Now they have phone records that quite
literally ping it every single place, like where her car

(44:26):
was abandoned, the farm, calls to Brooks, Howke calls to
his son, admits to moving the car. His or his
son was moving the car, but he admits to helping
him when the when At tire got flattened. I mean,
I think it checks out. I don't know about you,
but it all seems it seems like a pretty nice

(44:48):
neat little package to me. No, we don't know what
happened to her. Nobody does except the person or persons
who killed Crystal. And as for the defense attorneys, we
don't even know if she's dead. Guys, come on, she
had she had five children, her parents, her family, literally
everyone who knew her said she didn't go anywhere without
her kids. She would never have done anything like that.

(45:11):
And also, how'd she get anywhere else? Her car, her phone,
her keys, her purse, her id, her money, all of
it was left in there. What'd she do? Was she
abducted by aliens? I don't know. Maybe they'll attempt that defense.
Who knows. I wouldn't, but maybe they're so bold as
to claim that an alien ship came and abducted Crystal.

(45:34):
And then afterward, for whatever reason, these three men conspired
to move her car and hide all of her belongings
and call each other, and you know, one of their
girlfriends is ripping down missing posters, and Crystal's father gets
murdered on his own property in front of his fucking grandson,
and he sniped. I mean, come on, come on, I

(45:56):
don't again, I'm not good at math, but these things
are adding up to she's dead. She was murdered. And
I can say that now because at least one person
was convicted of having a hand in either murdering her
or covering it up. So just because you're good at
hiding a body and good at destroying evidence does not

(46:19):
mean that you get off scott free, like we've seen
plenty of nobody cases. That's, of course, the attempt is
to conceal evidence so well that you can speculate forever
that someone isn't dead. But you know there's a point
in time where someone is indeed declared legally dead. That
time has indeed passed for her. She was declared dead

(46:43):
a long time ago, but legally I think it's seven
years here in Kentucky, it's been more than that. She
disappeared in twenty sixteen, so I think we I think
we can safely say that she's not on this earth
any longer. Alive again. Maybe who knows, she's up in
a galaxy far far away. That's what I would know.

(47:03):
That's not what I would throw at the wall. I
wouldn't throw anything at the wall. I would just if
I was their defense attorney. I would just be trying
to find literally any other suspect. But there isn't one again,
motive them all, said the defense attorney, saying there was
no motive to kill her. Give me a break. They
were fighting and Brooks how admitted that Crystal, that he

(47:24):
and Crystel fought all the time, and that when they
did fight that she would leave, but she would come back.
She'd be gone for like not long at all. And
he made the claim that she would go to her
friends and be gone for days and so on and
so forth. Again that was not true. She did not
leave her kids. She did not leave her baby. It
was a young baby. If you're a mother, you know,

(47:47):
even a remotely decent one, you don't just leave your baby,
especially one that's dependent on you for literally everything. And
you know, Crystel's mom said Brooks was just that kind
of hands off father. You know, he got her pregnant.
They weren't married, and I think you just wanted her gone.

(48:07):
I think she probably that night went to a barbecue
at his family's house, who was a wealthy family. Wealthy family,
well known. You know, they own construction and contracting businesses,
and YadA YadA. Comes from a rich family in a
small town. And if you have ever lived in a
small town, you know, to quote the movie Drop Dead Gorgeous,

(48:29):
the richest family in a small town. It's front page news.
And one of them takes a shit, And that's exactly right.
If you have ever lived in a small town, there's
always like one rich family who has way more money
than everybody else. They maybe own like a gas station,
a video store, a something or other. I'm just thinking
of the families that were in my small town that
had money, but literally everyone knows everything about them. They

(48:51):
get different kinds of treatment, you know, they're kind of untouchable,
like to be honest. And also, he had a brother
who was a cop, which I'm stunned they fired him.
To be honest, I think they might have wanted. I
think Bardstown police might have already had a reason to
get rid of Nick, how other than calling his brother

(49:14):
in the middle of a police interw I mean, he
did also fail polygraph. I haven't seen a trial coming
for him. I would assume that they're building one, since
it was only I think last year that they bought
that gun from him, who you know, he was, of
course using an assumed name to sell it. I assume
that the state is building a murder case against him

(49:37):
for the murder of Tommy Ballard and possibly Jason Ellis,
But again that speculation at this point. Even though the
gun matches four out of five markers so far. Could
be higher at this point, but the FBI just to
aand out there putting out all their business, so we
don't know. They got to hold some cards to the chest.
If you put everything out, then the defense team can
go ahead and start building a defense. You don't want that.

(50:00):
You don't want to give them the extra time to
do that. I'm sure he's already lawyered up. I'm sure
he's prepared for the charges to come his way. I'm
sure he's prepared for it. I don't live in Louisville anymore.
If you're listening, nick, I moved away, far far away.
Don't come looking for me. I'm nowhere to be found.

(50:20):
I'm in the wind. I'm a ghost. Don't look for me.
But the other ones are safely in jail, so I'm
not too worried about them, but I am. I am
worried about that one, so I won't talk too much
more shit on him until he is safely in prison,
and then I'll run my mouth till the cows come home.
I don't have any cows, but if I did, it

(50:41):
would be that time my non existent cows, when they
come home. That would be the time. What the fuck
am I talking about. I'm sorry, it's been a five
minutes since I've done this and now I'm rambleing on.
I'm enjoying it. I missed it, like really truly I did.
And I wish, I really wish that I had had
more time and or energy. I'm elderly, as you know.

(51:02):
I'm over over the hill as they say, and I'm
very tired all the time, and so getting up at
like five am to drive one two hours away and
unload and set up, and you know, quell children's fears
all day and take their X rays honteeny tiny little

(51:24):
mouths using an adult X ray sensor, and then cleaning
their teeth. I mean, it's a lot. Again, I love
the job, but good sweet gentle Jesus, it is a lot,
and I'm very exhausted. At the end of the day,
I pretty much go non verbal. And that's so I
don't think recording a podcast at the end of one
of those days would be great. I'm gonna save them

(51:46):
for the weekend. I'm gonna start recording on the weekends
when work starts up again. It starts up again, I
think August eighteenth, that's when my summer furlough is over
look at me. I'm fancy, I'm on I'm not. I
said furlough. That's not fancy. I'm on leave. I'm on sabbetica.
I'm not at my unemployment claim. We're supposed to get
unemployment and it got denied because somebody in the office

(52:09):
and in Michigan messed up, and all of our claims
got denied and I have to wait until July to
file a new one. I'm displeased. And I would have
never even known while my claim got denied unless the
company hadn't sent an email and been like, hey, here's
an updated furlough letter, Sorry about that hat, and I'm
like okay, Like my husband said, y'all, Kentucky people are

(52:33):
cool until you're mad, and then different ballgame, and he
is correct. I don't know if it's just Kentucky or
if it's I don't know. I'm relentless and crazy and
love love a good vengeance, Love love all the vengeance. Okay,
I'm gonna stop talking either way. When when this trial begins,
I'll give you weekly updates, probably on Patreon, just like

(52:56):
a little you know what happened these days? I would
love to get into the courtroom. But again, I don't
really want to show anyone my face because I live, No,
I don't, I don't live close by. I don't I
live in the state, So I don't really want to
go show murderer, a murderer my potentially sorry excuse me,

(53:20):
an accused murderer, an alleged murderer, my face, and then
have something happen like a mistrial and he's out for
a period of time, and I get sniped in my
front yard because I am out there a decent amount. Uh,
I have to garden. I'm forced to because the home
that we bought has like a like a whole fucking
ecosystem in the front yard. The ladies who owned it

(53:41):
before us, they were gardeners and they were retired and
they had time, and I don't, and I would like
to just burn it, but we live too close to
other people, and I fear i'd go to jail. All right,
I'm done talking. I don't even remember my outro, like
my my spield that I say it end. Let me
see if I remember. If you like what you here,

(54:03):
you can hear more episodes every week. I'm gonna go
with Friday. The episodes are going to be on Friday's
going to be released on all podcast platforms. You'll get
them a day early and without ads. I know you
hate ads. If you hear any ads that are weird,
I have no control over them. Whatever ads are in
there do not reflect my personal beliefs. Ads be crazy

(54:24):
these days. I've seen a lot of podcast friends you know,
have just batshit crazy ads and slipped in there. They're
not up to us. We don't choose them unless we
record them with our own voices. And I'm not on
that level yet to be like recording for Quin's and whatever,
all those mattresses, Purple Helix, mattress. But I would love

(54:46):
a sponsorship, if you all would like to sponsor me.
I'm starting back up, hoping to get a massive following again.
I would Oh, I don't I do it for who
whoever wants to listen. You guys know that if I
wanted more publicity, I would have been jen rating it
long ago. Or I do like YouTube and sit like
in a bikini top or something or what I think

(55:09):
I'm going the way? Okay, Nope, nope, reel it in,
reel it in, and we're gonna close up, Shop close Up.
I'm quoting a lot of drop dead gorgeous. If you've
never seen that movie, please do. I don't know if
it's streaming anywhere. I bought it. I bought the DVD
on Amazon because it's like never streaming anywhere. Classic Mockumentary

(55:30):
Kirsten Dunst, Denise Richards, Kirsty Alley, Amy Adams, Brittany Murphy,
Tons of People, mockumentary about a beauty pageant in a
teeny tiny Minnesota town. Minnesota town, mount Rolls, Proud to
be an American. I'm gonna sut up. It's all from
that movie. Uh huh, okay, so again. Episodes Friday, Daily

(55:55):
and ad free on Patreon. If you guys want to
reactivate your description cool, I understand if you don't. I
have been going a hot minute. But you know, I
hope you still love me. I love you, Love you
very much. And remember, if it's creepy and weird, you'll
find it here