May 5, 2025 • 65 mins
When 77-year-old priest Father Charles Murr gets behind the microphone, he doesn't just share memories – he unveils a chilling narrative about the systematic dismantling of Catholic tradition that he's witnessed since his ordination in 1977. What makes this conversation extraordinary isn't just the historical perspective, but Father Murray's personal proximity to pivotal Vatican events that changed the Church forever.
The picture Father Murr paints is startling. From the glory days of America's Catholic education system where tuition cost just $15 per year and devoted nuns taught packed classrooms, to the bewildering exodus of 500,000 religious sisters and 10,000 Jesuit priests after Vatican II. His most explosive revelations concern alleged Freemason infiltration at the highest levels of Church governance – including the architect of the Novus Ordo Mass and the cardinal responsible for appointing bishops worldwide.
Father Murr's firsthand account of Pope John Paul I's mysterious death after just 33 days in office reads like a spiritual thriller. As someone who drove Cardinal Gagnon to audiences with both John Paul I and John Paul II, his perspective on what happened behind closed Vatican doors offers rare insight into one of the Church's most perplexing moments. The connection between John Paul I's confrontation with corrupt officials and his sudden death raises questions that still linger today.
Despite witnessing decades of institutional deterioration and what he calls "the greatest crisis in 2,000 years of Church history," Father Murr maintains a surprising optimism about the upcoming conclave. His assessment of the cardinal electors, particularly those from Africa and Asia, suggests that divine intervention could still turn the tide. For anyone seeking to understand why traditional Catholics view the coming papal election as a pivotal moment for civilization itself, this conversation provides essential context and unexpected hope.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Sancte, sancte, amare morti decadas nos.
In taste they're a verrant.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Good morning.
Rob and I have been looking toget you on for about two years.
We both bought Murder in the33rd Degree two years ago, uh-uh
, and we read our way through itand then something I think we
got caught up talking aboutevolution and like it was like a
(00:52):
series we did about evolutionthat I got invited to a
conference and we just didn'tget around to making sure we put
the interview together and then, like almost a year had gone by
and I I forgot about the book.
And so I saw you on JoeMcLean's show the other morning
and and you started to give me alittle bit of hope.
So I've been?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
isn't Joe a great guy ?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Isn't McLean a great guy I think he is.
So I, I, um, I kind of bouncedbetween these two places with
this coming conclave where I'mlike, okay, I'm a little bit
hopeful, Maybe we're going toget something good.
And then the other place islike, oh no, we're in the end of
the world and we're going toget the worst pope in history,
so but you were we can't havethat happen.
(01:38):
It's already happened, that'sdone, that is true, so, but it's
also interesting because Rob isfrom Minnesota and you were
born in Minnesota and I'm fromNew York and you said you
actually were, were you?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
incarnated in New York.
Sure, I'm incarnated in NewYork.
I was pastor of.
I was on 87th Street at StJoseph in Yorkville, and then
pastor at Our Lady of Guadalupeon 14th Street and then pastor
of St Francis de Sales on 96thStreet.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Oh, wow, okay, so, st Francis de.
Sales.
I know the other two I don'tyeah.
So what year were you?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
ordained 77.
I'm an old man.
I'm an old man, anthony, 77.
I'm an old man.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm an old man anthony, well, I'll be uh, I'll
be 48 years, ordained on the13th of may.
That's awesome, oh, wow, thatis awesome, may 13th, wow, yeah,
so it.
But it's also good for guyslike us to hear the perspective
of somebody who's kind of beenthrough these.
Um, because rob and I bothremember francis's uh conclave.
Uh, I remember very vividlybenedict, I don't know how, how,
(02:56):
how uh, because rob's a littlebit younger than me, but and we
I you know rob, rob and I bothkind of grew up in the in the JP
two Catholic era.
You know where it was like itwas.
There was an excitement thatwas going on in the church back
then.
There's a lot of convertscoming in and everybody.
(03:17):
Just, you know it was the newspringtime, we were talking
about the hermeneutic ofcontinuity and all these things.
And yes yes, yes, yeah, thehermeneutic of continuity and
all these things.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
So for the younger people thatcome in especially because we
have a lot of guys in their 20sthat watch this and they
probably just had conversions orcame into the church under
Francis it's like a totallydifferent way of seeing the
(03:37):
church and especially lookingback upon it and seeing those,
you know, seeing Benedict andJohn Paul II.
In this light of the moderntraditionalists who didn't live
through it.
It's hard to explain to themthe excitement that was going on
in the church.
But you were ordained in 1977,and you were in Rome for that 78
(04:02):
conclave right.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Both of them were in Rome for that 78 conclave, right
, both of them.
I was in Rome for the electionof John Paul II and for Pope
Benedict.
I was in St Peter's Square onall of those occasions, benedict
(04:28):
, I was in St Peter's Square onall of those occasions.
Yeah, I'll just back up alittle bit.
You're starting not at thebeginning, the two of you, it's
not your fault, you weren't bornthen.
But I'll tell you when.
The beginning was the beginningof this sort of season of hope,
of a hope that came in, came inwith the Second Vatican Council.
Now, nobody knew what theSecond Vatican Council was going
(04:49):
to be about.
Nobody knew Just that it wasgoing to be an updating of
things.
Generally speaking, the churchhad to kind of understand that
the church was in the world andhad to get a little bit more
with it, if you will.
So we were looking for changes,exterior changes and things,
(05:11):
right.
Well, there wasn't excitementin the air.
There really wasn't.
Kennedy was president, ourfirst Catholic president.
Pope John was sort of a notavant-garde, but sort of a
progressive thinking man.
But I mean, you have to seewhere he was coming from when we
say progressive thinking.
He was coming from the MiddleAges, and to be progressive
(05:34):
thinking in the Middle Ages isnot the same thing as a
progressive thinker today.
But it was an exciting time.
The problem is that it neverbecame more than an exciting
time and it was sort of downhillfrom then.
The excitement wore off inabout 1967, 68.
(05:55):
1969, the new mask came out,1970, 1969, 1970.
Through the 70s we had problems,defections, defections.
I mean.
We had 30,000 Jesuit priests in1970.
And by 1977, when I wasordained, 10,000 had left, left
(06:22):
the priesthood.
We had 500,000 nuns left theconvent, holy cow, and this
decimated not decimated depletedcompletely what the Catholic
school system was in the UnitedStates.
The two of you as much goodwillas you have have no idea what a
(06:45):
jewel the Catholic schoolsystem was in the United States
of America.
It was something to be copied,emulated by everyone in the
world.
It was fantastic.
It cost me listen to this.
When I went to grade school,you know what the tuition was.
We had all Dominican sisters.
There were no lay people.
There were no lay peopleteaching no late people.
There were no late peopleteaching anything.
(07:06):
The sisters sought eight grades.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
It was 15 a year that is, that is a that's that
included.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That included.
That included your books, andthat was with no federal or
state help, right?
So why?
Because we had some fantasticwomen.
I cannot underscore that enough.
They're talking about thewomen's place in the churches.
These women ran the church.
They actually did.
They were the backbone of theCatholic church in America.
(07:37):
These pious women who gave upeverything in their life to
teach children to love God, andthey did an incredible job.
An incredible job.
By 1975, we had lost 500,000 ofthem.
Wow, and I'm not talking todeath, just their number.
The women who had left becamedisenchanted with their vocation
(07:59):
and just left, and everythingstarted going downhill from then
.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Now I don't want to paint a picture of doom and
gloom because there were greatspots in that too what was it
like to actually live throughthat and see those things
happening?
Because we man I kind of getI'll get a doom and gloom
outlook on the way things arenow.
But as this whole cascade ofeverything falling apart is kind
(08:31):
of in the air all these, youknow the nuns leaving their
orders and the Jesuit priestsleaving, and you know, as the
craziness of the 60s dies down,then you get the new mass at the
end of the 60s and then the 70scomes and you know, the fervor
of the revolution starts diesdown.
Then you get the new mass atthe end of the 60s and then the
70s comes and, yeah, you knowthe, the fervor of the
revolution starts to die down.
Then that conclave comes in1978 and you guys, well, the
(08:57):
church elects john paul I andthen within 30 days the man dies
.
So your whole book is aboutthat actual conclave there.
So you were in Rome for both ofthose conclaves, right, that
30-day period.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yes, look, the thing is this too.
It's not just that.
We lost 10,000 Jesuits and40,000 priests in the United
States and 500,000 nuns all overthe world, and we lost our
school system.
Schools began closing, churchesbegan closing.
Our universities were moresecular than they were Catholic.
(09:34):
We had to cover up crucifixesto be able to talk, because we
started taking federalgovernment money and therefore
religion had to be covered up alittle bit.
You couldn't be as boldlyCatholic.
So all of these things werehappening, and you know, I'll
(09:54):
tell you this.
You remember the prophetJeremiah in the Old Testament?
Oh yeah, jeremiah foretold.
He told the Jews that they wereall going to be sold into
slavery.
He said if you don't change,god is going to let you be
slaves of the Egyptians.
You're going to be.
That's it.
Well, jeremiah sat on a rockand watched his people being led
(10:18):
off to slavery and he cried outto God that he wished that he
had been wrong.
Why can't you make me wrong?
I wish I were wrong.
I wish I didn't even know thiswas happening, but I've been
telling these people this foryears.
There were many of us who knewwe were going in the wrong
direction, but nobody waslistening.
(10:39):
It's like the momentum was sostrong, it was just going on and
when you mention that somethingwas wrong, people will say no,
no, no, no, it's going to getbetter.
Just watch.
Well, it didn't get better, itgot progressively worse.
Right, so it was when, john.
Well, here's the deal In 1972,pope Paul VI was pope.
(11:09):
The deal In 1972, pope Paul VIwas pope.
He said the smoke of Satan hassomehow filtered through some
fissure in the wall and it hasfilled the sanctuary of the Lord
with smoke.
Everybody was taken aback bythat.
What in the world is he talkingabout?
This is during a homily worldis he talking about?
This is during a homily.
Finally he became.
He was a liberal, finally.
He was getting the idea thatthings weren't going right.
(11:30):
He was the Pope In 1974, twocardinals brought proof to him
that some of the members of hisgovernment, the Roman Curia at
least one, actually actually two, two were Freemasons.
They were in cahoots with theFreemasons of Italy to topple
(11:54):
the Vatican.
Now, this sounds absolutely.
It sounds crazy.
It sounds like I'm talking, I'ma conspirator's theorist.
It's actually.
It's actually true.
There are people still inprison because of that today.
Right, those who weren't killedand didn't commit suicide.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
People hear Freemason now and it sounds like you know
, oh, that's a conspiracy theory.
But if you go back before thecouncil, every single Pope since
, like the 18th and 19thcenturies, were warning about
this 1730s I think.
Actually, when the first popesstart warning about these secret
societies and talking about howthere's going to be this
(12:37):
Freemasonic attempt to you know,the Alt of Vendita comes out
and the popes were warningemphatically about this
happening.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And then they wrote the cyclicals on it right yes.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
We were not alive.
We were not alive, but duringthe time of Pope Pius IX, he was
pope for 32 years.
Imagine that he was the longestreigning pope.
Imagine that he was the longestreigning pope.
In the 1870s there was VaticanI, the first Vatican Council.
That never finished because therebels came in and took over
(13:15):
Rome.
When he died, when the popedied, he remained in the Vatican
(13:35):
for the rest of his life and heconsidered himself a prisoner
of the Vatican.
When he died, there was a battle, if you can imagine, on the
bridge of the holy angels.
If you know Rome, you knowBernini's beautiful, the bridge,
sacred bridge, in Sant'Angeliof the angels holding the
instruments of passion.
Anyway, they were crossing withhis body to be buried in San
Lorenzo.
He wanted to be buried outsideof the Vatican because he had
spent his whole life inside theVatican.
He wanted to make a statement,so he asked to be buried in San
(13:57):
Lorenzo, a beautiful basilica inRome, outside the Vatican.
On that bridge was a battlebetween the Freemasons and,
thank God for the Catholic youthof Accione Cattolica.
There was a battle that theywanted to.
They were about to throw hisbody into the Tiber River, take
(14:20):
it out of the coffin and throwit.
This is, yeah, it's incredible.
These were the Freemasons,right, this is what they were up
to and their decision was theyare absolutely pronounced
against the Catholic Church.
There's no question about it.
Now, in the 1978, 1974, we hadthis problem of these cardinals
(14:45):
bringing this to the Pope'sattention.
The Pope Paul VI called for aninvestigation and he named an
investigator who was CardinalGagnon.
Edward Gagnon, aFrench-Canadian, brilliant man,
holy man, pious man.
He worked for three years onthis investigation and told the
(15:06):
Holy Father, yes, that therewere at least two major players
who were Freemasons in theVatican.
One of them was a man by thename of Annabel Bugnini.
He was the architect, if youwill.
I think architect is a goodterm for a Freemason.
He was the architect of the newmass.
I think architect is a goodterm for a Freemason.
(15:27):
He was the architect of the newmass, the new mass that you
attend every Sunday or every dayif you go to mass.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
He was transferred out of the Vatican.
When that was discovered, hewas transferred to Iran, given a
nothing place in Iran.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
This is after he already had his hands in
creating his yes, this is.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
This is post-destruction yeah, this is
post-destruction.
Yeah, he did all the damage andthen he gets shipped off and
it's like, yeah, this is this isclosing the.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
This is closing the barn door after the horses have
escaped, right, yeah, yeah andthen?
So what was more important wasthat the man who was naming all
of the Catholic bishops in theworld, whose name was Baggio
B-A-G-G-I-O, first nameSebastian was a Freemason, if
(16:18):
you can imagine.
If you can imagine a Freemasonnaming your bishops.
He was the one who appointedbishops all over the world.
He was in charge of namingbishops.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Is it so much different than Supich?
It's incredible.
Is it so much different thanSupich telling Francis who to
elevate?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
in America.
It's not right?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
No, it's the same thing, we're still seeing
whether they have the actualmembership in Freemasonry.
Like that's right.
Doing the same exact thing,right, so I could, I could not
agree with you more how long hadbaggio been in that position?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
how long had he been naming bishops?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
at that point?
Well, uh, he was.
He was in that position for 12years, and these were post
post-coun years, post-conciliaryears when, if you bear with me
just a moment here, before thecouncil, every bishop was the
(17:17):
bishop of his diocese until hedied, just like the pope.
Yeah, if the man lived to be104, he was the bishop of his
diocese.
He was the bishop of Brooklynat 103.
Other people logically helpedhim run the diocese, but he
didn't go anywhere.
All of a sudden, pope Paul VIpublished a decree saying that
(17:42):
every man at 75 will resign,present his resignation as
bishop.
That's why bishops now resignat age 75.
Well, now, you can be againstthat, you can be for it, it
really doesn't matter.
But what I'm saying is to whathappened during that time.
All of a sudden, you've got allof these bishops, a huge amount
of bishops, who resignedbecause they're over 75.
(18:04):
All of these bishops, a hugeamount of bishops who resigned
because they're over 75.
They were replaced by liberal,progressive bishops appointed by
a Freemason, sebastian Caballo.
This is what this was.
This is incredible, yeah thiswas them.
So we had, you were right, butthey almost did it overnight.
This is what I'm saying.
(18:24):
It was just, it was a boom.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, they take out the old guard and they put their
young revolutionaries in play.
It was almost man.
This is to not see this as evenfrom back then, because we
recently heard Cardinal Mueller.
I think it was last year hegets, he was on with Raymond
Arroyo and he's like we aretalking about a hostile takeover
(18:50):
of the Catholic Church, butthis takeover began well before
the Francis pontificate.
Oh, it didn't start thismorning.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
It didn't start this morning, I'll tell you that, and
see, and it was easier toperform because this is now
after the Second Vatican Council, after the council, that's that
.
That's proposing change.
Ok, good, so we're in thisthing of change.
So, anyone who questioned itWell, there's something wrong
(19:20):
with you.
What are you against?
Change Are?
Are you against new ideas, newgrowth?
What's the matter with you?
Yeah, okay, so everything wasgeared that way.
We had a papal nuncio in theUnited States, jadot J-A-D-O-T.
(19:41):
He was Belgian, he was the onlyson of a Belgian diamond mine
owner.
That's how you become PapalNuncio.
Anyway, he was the one in theUnited States who was selecting
these men, and then he wouldsend the names to Rome, to
(20:02):
Cardinal Baggio.
He wrote an article in, notwrote an article.
He was interviewed in Timemagazine when he resigned and he
said the proudest thing that hehad done was to name, or have
named, 75 or 78 liberal bishopsto the United States of America
who were going to effect change.
(20:23):
So we've been in this for a longtime.
The two of you, gentlemen, youwere born after the council, so
you have no real point ofreference.
But believe me, look, thechurch has always had problems.
The church is made up of humanbeings and when you've got
anything to do with human beingsyou've got problems always.
(20:44):
But I'm telling you it was runup until the 1960s Incredibly
incredibly smooth.
We were the envy of the world,seriously, and the church was
growing and growing and growingand missionary zeal.
Now I don't know if you rememberthis, but just a few years ago,
(21:05):
four or five years ago, amissionary from the Amazon, pope
Francis, was very interested inthe Amazon, whatever his reason
was, and then he brought in apagan idol and put the pagan
idol on the altar, the highaltar of St Peter's Basilica.
It's incredible.
I thought I was having a Idon't know what, not a nightmare
(21:28):
, because I was awake.
It was a day mare.
I guess I couldn't believe whatI was seeing or hearing.
But this man was a missionary.
He was an Italian priest,missionary for 40 years in the
Amazon, and the Pope invited himto the opening of one of his
(21:48):
synod talks.
This man's great pride and joywas that in 40 years he had not
baptized one single person andhe was applauded Like what.
It's incredible.
So this is the confusion we'reall in right now and after this
(22:08):
pontificate, the last one thatjust ended.
I've never seen so muchconfusion in my life.
Actually, it's not confusionbecause I, in particular, am not
confused.
I see very clearly what'shappening.
I get it.
We are in a war, that's whatwe're in in a dilemma, but I'm
(22:29):
not confused about it because Ihappen to know right from wrong
and I happen to know mycatechism since I was a boy in
school very well.
I know what the church teaches.
We're in crisis because thechurch wanted to be in crisis.
For some reason, she putherself in crisis and I'm saying
(22:49):
you can figure it out foryourselves.
I think the crisis oh, by theway, just I'll end with this
Five days ago, 10 days ago,whatever it was three lodges of
the Masonic Brotherhood inEurope one from France, two in
Italy lauded, applauded PopeFrancis.
(23:10):
This was the kind of pope we'vebeen waiting for for years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
It was the.
And you're applauded by theFreemasons.
It was the accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
There's something wrong.
The accomplishment of the Alvendita, francis, he, he was the
, the ultimate goal of the altavendita, and you know it's.
It's interesting to watchpeople kind of try to sugarcoat
the past 12 years.
Yes, but they were very painfulfor faithful catholics, because
all the things you're talkingabout what happened is they.
(23:52):
You know, you had yourArchbishop Lefebvre who really
was in shock when he saw theAssisi meetings, the way we were
when we saw the Pachamamaincident.
But when he saw Assisi he wasin shock like we were.
But the rest of the worldthought nothing of it and they
just looked at oh, like ahumanism, like I remember not
even hearing about the Assisimeetings until 2017.
It's, but so you for us to umthe conversation that takes
(24:17):
place after the council it's notabout traditional liturgy and
things like that.
They wind up changing theoverton window so much that the
conversation then becomesbetween the communal guys and
the concilium guys and nobody'seven talking about like a return
to tradition.
At that point they just shiftedthe overton window so much that
it it's interesting to watch 50, 60 years later, 50 like the
(24:41):
conversation about traditiondoesn't really come back until
the francisificate Under Francis.
Then we start going.
Wait a minute.
Maybe this whole council was amistake, but it took a very long
time to get there.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Yes, and let me just be clear on this, I am not of
the opinion that the council wasa mistake.
Okay, I've read the councildocuments.
I've studied the councildocuments.
There are many cases in thosedocuments where clarification is
needed.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Right, but that's all .
Clarification was needed.
This was what CardinalRatzinger and Pope Benedict was
trying to do, little by little,clarifying these ambiguous
points.
Ambiguity was the language ofthe council, because you had the
left coming in and they weretrying to get the right.
(25:37):
They were trying to pull theright with them, and they could
do that by using ambiguity.
They said what do you mean?
Well, what do you think I mean?
Oh, well, that's it.
We both believe the same thing,right, until we didn't, and it
was clear, so that ambiguity hadto be cleared up.
(25:58):
The thing with Assisi it wasshocking, because those of us
who were educated as Catholicsknew that that was wrong.
You do not pray with heathens.
You don't do that.
You don't hate heathens, youdon't hate the pagans.
That's not the point.
You love them.
They're human beings, yourespect them, but you don't go.
(26:19):
I mean the very idea that theHoly Father, the Pope of Rome,
the vicar of Christ on earth, ispraying with an American Indian
who's praying to the great toeyeah, this is mind-boggling.
Or the great thumb, I don'tknow if it was a toe or a thumb.
What are you talking about?
(26:40):
This is just.
This is crazy, and you'reputting everything on the same
level, but when this is whatFrancis just did all religions
are the same.
He said the same thing.
This is heresy.
All religions are not the same.
If you believe that allreligions are the same, you
don't belong in the CatholicChurch.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Because we have one religion.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
We have one founder, who's Christ.
That's it.
There's one way.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
That experience.
When you actually watched thathappen, were you alarmed
yourself, because I was tooyoung, I had no idea that that
even happened.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yes, we were alarmed.
Many of us were alarmed,anthony, we were alarmed.
But at the same time, the worldaround us is saying isn't this
wonderful?
Yeah, they're all getting along.
Isn't that beautiful?
All of these religions arefinally getting along.
Who wanted that?
All along, the Freemasons?
This is what they want.
(27:40):
All religions are the same.
They're not different.
They're all praying to the sameGod.
No, we're not.
No, we're not.
We have a trinity, a triune God.
God has revealed his own natureand we hold that sacrosanct.
All of these, these other,these are superstitions and this
.
You're going to put everythingon the same level.
(28:01):
But the world applauded that.
The world thought this waswonderful.
So when you hear the applauseof the world and the world
praising you, kind of you becomea little bit quiet.
Yeah, even though you're not inagreement, you just you watch
it so okay.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So now you've, you've witnessed all of this, go on,
and then you've watched thefrancis papacy happen, but
you're still hopeful for thisnext conclave.
That because I I get.
I mean, I look at the men thatare there and I'm just like man,
it is going to take divineintervention for us to get a
(28:43):
Catholic as the next Pope.
Like there's so many men therethat aren't Catholic, they don't
have the faith.
Like these are godless men whoare concerned with the issues of
the day climate change andimmigration and they're very
political men and to me it's.
They dress up in the garb ofreligiosity but they're not
(29:07):
speaking of the God we know.
So to me, I see the Sanhedrinwhen I look at them, you know,
and I'm just begging God to bemerciful to us and give us one
of the few men there thatactually do believe the Catholic
faith.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
If you're seeing the Sanhedrin, when you're looking
at many of these men, you're anoptimist.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Oh man.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
You're an optimist.
Look, look, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
Look, look, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
I don't believe.
I'm trying to be realistic andI'm not trying to be a
reactionary, but I'm telling youI have never seen anything in
the history of the church and Iknow my my church history pretty
well I've never seen anythingin the last 2 000 years that
(29:53):
compares to the last 12.
Yeah, why?
Why do I say that?
And people will say well, we hadbad popes in the just a minute.
We might have had morally badmen living morally bad lives.
They did not contradict theCatholic faith.
Their teaching was straight on.
(30:14):
They didn't vary on that.
I always use the example ofthis.
They didn't vary on that.
I always use the example ofthis.
Probably the Borgia popes havethe fame of being the worst
popes in the world.
You have to be very careful ofthat, because that feeds into
what we call the black legend,that the English during the
(30:35):
Reformation the EnglishReformation really were
anti-Spanish, anti-catholic andthey created an awful lot of
myths.
But also, the Borgias wereSpaniards and they had the
throne of Peter.
They were hated in Italybecause they were Spaniards.
So history has not been nice tothem and a lot of things that
we read about them were simplynot true, but let's say they
(30:56):
were.
Alexander VI was pope, a Borgiapope.
He was reputed to have hadseven or nine illegitimate
children okay.
A group of priests from southernItaly made a pilgrimage to Rome
when they heard that the BorgiaPope was on the throne, and
(31:20):
they knew his fame.
They knew that he had lived alet me just call it a loose
lifestyle.
Should we put it that way?
They said.
And these priests walked fromsouthern Italy to Rome in a
pilgrimage with their concubinesand with their children, asking
for a change in celibacy.
(31:41):
This is in 1492, asking for achange in celibacy.
They said well, we've got theperfect man right now as Pope,
because he's living a wickedlife.
The Pope answered them, did notreceive them when they arrived
in Rome, but he sent a messageto them I'll take care of my
(32:02):
sins, you take care of your sins.
I'm not changing the law of thechurch to accommodate my life.
I'll answer for my sins beforeGod.
We're not changing the laws tomake my life easier.
That's not what this is about.
I take my hat off to such a man.
(32:22):
I take my hat off to such a man.
Also.
There was an english martyr thatI was just reading about, and I
should be ashamed of myself fornot remembering his name.
Uh, a womanizer, an alcoholic,during the time of henry the
eighth in england.
What was his name?
You know?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I can't remember his, his name, but the quote that he
says when he goes to hismartyrdom is amazing.
I'll let you say the quote, butit's amazing, isn't that
fantastic?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
An adulterer, a womanizer, a fornicator.
I have always been A heretic, Ihave never been.
And he's a saint, that's it,he's a saint.
And he's a saint Because hegave his life.
He gave his life in testimonyfor that, for the truth.
Yeah, man, I can't Rob look, soI guess what I'm saying,
anthony and Rob, there's hopefor us, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, we gotta pray that the, that with the, with
the, with the office comesDivine grace St Andrew Waters.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yes, that's him.
There you go.
Yeah, st Andrew, that's right,st Andrew.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, we we have to pray with the office comes.
Uh, you know, because we'veseen that through church history
, where a crooked man winds uptaking the papacy, but then some
kind of grace gets conferredupon the man and he doesn't.
He doesn't after he becomespope.
It's almost like you know.
Yeah, that opinion was mebefore that, but now we are the
(33:43):
royal, we and I don't hold thatopinion anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
And that's like St Thomas.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yes, that's right.
That's right Question yes.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
The audience here.
You mentioned that, that Boniniwas a Freemason, obviously, and
he was responsible for themajor liturgical reforms from
the 50s, you know, through theNovus Ordo.
If we have a restoration,should we go back to something
prior to everything he did?
Or how should we view the newMass through the lens of what we
(34:18):
know now about who made?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
it.
Great question.
Great question and a logicalone.
I would say this this is myopinion.
Okay, I'm giving you my opinion, which doesn't make it gospel.
Let's be clear on that.
As far as I'm concerned, therewere certain things that should
(34:41):
have changed.
We do progress with time andchanges are made in things.
The very fact that we have themass is because the mass
organically changed from itsbeginning.
Things were added, things weretaken away.
It was codified in 1570 by PopePius V.
(35:11):
Okay, but basically the masshas been the same.
The Catholic mass has been thesame for about 1800 years, and
some would say 1900 years, right, some would say 1900 years,
right.
It's been this form.
Things come, things go, thingschange.
We add, for example, we addsaints to our calendar, right?
Well, that's a change, that's achange, right?
(35:35):
Good.
So how do we change that?
How do we accommodate?
Fine, there's there.
There's also, for example, forexample, every every sunday in
the old calendar there was thesame gospel, the same gospel,
the same god, every year.
Today, in the new mass, we havea three-year cycle, and so we
(35:56):
we're, we get a little bit moreof scripture put in.
I think that's refreshing.
I think most priests agree withthat.
These are wonderful changes.
What's not wonderful is havingpeople skateboarding at the
offertory, women dancing duringthe consecration, women dancing
(36:19):
during the consecration, priestsinventing this, doing hulas and
shouting no.
This is insanity.
This isn't change.
This isn't good.
We've lost a whole sense of thesacred.
We've lost a whole sense of thesacred.
I'm not saying that we have togo back to.
(36:40):
Everything was perfect before.
Everything was not perfectbefore.
That's why they called thecouncil.
Everybody saw that there was aneed for a little bit of dusting
off, a new look at some things.
For example, we never had untilrecently, the entire Mass was
(37:00):
in Latin.
Right Now, what I'm saying isso were the readings.
So were the readings Now whatPopes, even before the Council,
said you can do the firstreading in the Gospel in the
vernacular Marvelous Good, sopeople can understand it.
This is the gospel in thevernacular Marvelous Good, so
(37:21):
people can understand it.
This is what I'm saying bychanges.
Right, it's not necessary to goback.
What's necessary is to reform,a proper reformation, and that
can happen.
There's some dusting off.
That needed to be done.
It was done.
It wasn be done.
It was done.
It wasn't done.
It was overdone.
(37:41):
They threw out the baby withthe bathwater.
This is what I'm saying.
This is what happened.
Let me give you an example.
We had one canon.
What is the canon?
The canon is the mass after thesanctus, holy, holy, holy, lord
God.
Right After that, until thecommunion is finished, that's
(38:03):
until the up to communion.
That is the canon.
Not one word of that was to bechanged.
The council said this.
I didn't say this.
The Vatican council, too, saidnot one word of the Roman canon
is to be changed.
Yeah, well, that's pretty clear, isn't it?
The last time you went to mass,I'll bet you didn't hear the
Roman canon is to be changed.
Well, that's pretty clear,isn't it?
(38:24):
The last time you went to Mass,I'll bet you didn't hear the
Roman canon.
What did Bunini do?
Bunini said well, now, just aminute.
The council says that we can'tchange one word of the Roman
canon.
I know what we'll do.
I'm going to invent three morecanons.
Yeah, right, so we've gotEucharistic prayer number one,
(38:47):
number two, number three andnumber four, and this isn't.
This is crazy.
This isn't what the councilsaid to do.
And then he puts in all ofthese.
And you know that.
I've just got to tell you this,because this, to me, is one of
the most unbelievable things.
I heard it myself from FatherLouis Boyer.
He worked with Buñini in thecreation of the new Mass.
(39:14):
I heard him say this himself.
I heard him say this himself.
He did a conversion in his lifeand came back to reality, but
he reported this.
The second Eucharistic prayer.
This is the one that you hearevery time you go to Mass.
You know why you hear itBecause it's the shortest, not
(39:37):
because it's the most beautiful.
It's the shortest.
You are holy, indeed the mostbeautiful, it's the shortest,
you are holy indeed.
Lord, the fountain of allholiness, let your spirit come
upon these gifts to make themholy, so that they may become
the body and blood.
That's the second that waswritten by Father Bouyer.
Now be careful here.
If you listen to Bognini whenhe presented this, he would tell
(39:59):
you that this is the oldestcanon of the Catholic Church.
We found this, we found thisamong the documents.
This is the oldest and it's themost beautiful.
Father Bouillet finallyconfessed.
He said no, I was out to dinnerone night in Trastevere at a
pizza place, having a glass ofwine with a consociate, and I
(40:19):
noticed that my canon, thisEucharistic prayer, had to be on
Bunini's desk at 10 o'clock thenext morning.
We wrote it out on a napkin inthe restaurant.
This is what we're using.
Is that an organic developmentof the mass?
What's organic about that?
(40:40):
An organic development of themass, what's organic?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
about that, Except for the pizza sauce and even the
receiving on the hand is it'santiquarianism.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
All of that is terrible.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's just antiquarianism.
It's like, oh, we found somestatement from Justin Martyr who
talks about this.
But it's like it's just thereason that the church developed
these things over time wasbecause they knew that it would
be the best for souls and theliturgy that the church
developed sustained civilizationfor nineteen hundred sixty
(41:11):
years.
So to just kind of overturnthat is just insane.
Like, yeah, you're right, thereare, there is room for maybe
making people able to hear thegospel and the readings and the
vernacular, but you know, tojust wholeheartedly just upend
everything like that was.
It must've been shocking forthe people, especially those,
(41:33):
the little ones, the devoutlittle ones who just you know
they would.
They would just go to mass andthen all of a sudden everything
changed on them.
It must have been such a hardthing.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Let me tell you something else too, anthony.
That was fantastic Because ofCatholic schools.
We were 54 people in myclassroom, 54 students and one
nun maintained order 54, right,and believe me, we learned.
Anybody who graduated from aCatholic school was two years
(42:03):
ahead of public school kids, wewere taught.
We had what was called thedialogue mass.
We were taught as children theanswers to all of the responses
in Latin.
So when we went to mass and thepriest said Dominus vobiscum,
we answered that conspiracy.
To all Sursum corda, weanswered avemus ad dominum.
(42:26):
We answered this.
This was.
Our participation was fantastic.
It wasn't that we werecompletely ignorant.
We knew what was going on.
Communion in the hand.
This was a creation by MartinLuther.
Don't let them tell you, thisis the early church.
Martin Luther did this to ruinthe idea that Catholic
(42:49):
superstition of the realpresence.
Yeah, and it worked real well.
Last year they did a study,didn't they?
70% of American Catholics donot believe that that host is
the body of christ.
Well, congratulations, theywere.
They were successful in theircampaign.
Yeah, that's what they wantedto do.
(43:10):
You know, you know this too.
If you're married, you can tellme how much you love your wives
.
But if I see you in publicmistreating her, calling her
names or paying no attention toher, you're not going to fool me
that you love your wives.
I see the way you treat her.
Well, if we treat the blessedsacrament that way filthy hands,
(43:34):
pieces falling on the floor,we're walking on them.
Anybody can give out communion.
It's a hodgepodge and we we'vedone this and we've done it for
the purpose of taking away thesacred.
We have two directions on thecross, our symbol.
Two directions horizontal andvertical.
(43:56):
We're left with this.
Yeah, just vertical.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
So, true, um, okay, so to go back, to go back to the
conclave that elects john paulI.
So he gets elected, now he'sonly there for 30 days and then
he dies.
Now 33 days.
33 days now, what, what?
Because it's, it's a verymysterious circumstance that
(44:22):
happens with him.
What, what, what do you thinkhappened there?
Speaker 3 (44:30):
first of all, why was he elected?
yeah all right, I I go.
I I'm not going to get into mybook, but it's in the book and I
don't want to get bogged downwith detail.
The election was between threemen Cardinal Siri of Genoa,
Cardinal Sebastian Baggio of theRoman Curia and Giovanni
(44:53):
Benelli of the Secretary ofState, the Secretary of State.
When Benelli saw that Baggiowas gaining in votes, Benelli
threw his votes over to aneutral candidate by the name of
Albino Luciani from Venice.
He won.
So Cardinal Benelli of Florencewas the one who saved the day
(45:21):
in that, and he was a friend andally of Gagnon right.
Yes, yeah, these are the goodguys.
These are the good guys.
But what I'm saying is we hadfor a moment, for a while, while
we had a Freemason leading therace.
(45:41):
Could you imagine actuallyelecting a Freemason?
Speaker 1 (45:48):
as Pope of Rome.
I think it happens.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
You don't have a real hard time imagining that, do
you we?
won't go into that.
Let's steer away from that,shall we?
I like having my head attachedto my neck, but the point is
this.
The point is this he won theelection, luciani, he's a good
(46:15):
man Let me start by this one Aman who first of all, believed
in God yeah, and feared God inthe proper sense of the word.
To fear the Lord, the firstthing he did was he asked
Cardinal Benelli to be hisSecretary of State and Cardinal
(46:36):
Benelli said yes, he agreedstate.
And Cardinal Benelli said yes,he agreed.
As soon as you call in CardinalGagnon, who actually was
Archbishop still at that time,archbishop Gagnon, who just
finished the three-yearinvestigation of the Roman Curia
, that is, of your government,holy Father, the people you've
got who are surrounding you, youhave to read his report because
(46:59):
there's some house cleaningneeded to be done before we go
any further.
There's some people to just saygoodbye, to get them out of
here and clean house.
Well, the Pope, john Paul.
I called in Gagnon I knowbecause I drove Gagnon to the
(47:22):
audience.
He went up and saw the Pope,handed him his entire study, the
three-year study on the RomanCuria, and came down very
positive.
We drove back home.
He was elated with the audiencehow it went.
And the Pope took the documentsand was studying them.
He finally came to this he saidthe Pope now said the Pope was
(47:46):
a little bit timid.
If he had one defect it was hishe was shy.
It's like all of us Nobodywants confrontation, we don't
look for it.
If it happens, okay, ithappened, but you're not out
looking for it.
Those we call brutes Brutes areout doing that.
Well, sometimes those subwayscan be brutal, anyway.
(48:15):
So the Pope called in Gagnon.
Gagnon gave him the study andhe began studying exactly what
had to be done.
So he said to the pope JohnPaul, I called Benelli in
Florence, said you're going tobe my secretary of state, you're
(48:37):
going to come back to theVatican and help me run this
place.
Yes, he said, why don't you getrid of Baggio?
Why don't you get rid ofCardinal Baggio?
Baggio was in power, believe me, he was in power.
And Benelli said no, holyFather, you have to do that.
You as Pope have to do that.
That has to be the first thingthat you do as an act that
(49:00):
people can see, so they knowwhere we're going, where this is
going.
You have to do that.
I can't do that for you.
You've got to do it, all right,all right.
Well, he tried getting anappointment with Baggio.
Baggio refused to see him.
He was busy constantly.
Imagine telling the Pope thatyou're busy.
He was busy constantly.
Imagine telling the Pope thatyou're busy.
(49:21):
Yeah, so, no, no, I can't makeit today.
Sorry, I'm busy.
I've got a ping pong lesson orsomething.
Whatever.
He made up incredible, just anincredible man.
Finally, the Pope said to himlook, I need to speak.
We need to speak.
When can you come?
He said well, today is off.
He said then tonight, thentonight.
(49:44):
He said don't tell me you'rebusy tonight After eight o'clock
.
You're busy.
What are you doing after eighto'clock?
I'll wait for you here in myoffice at eight o'clock.
Well, bajo arrived at 8 pm thatnight.
They sat down and talked andthe Pope offered him.
(50:06):
He said leave the congregationfor bishops and you can take
Venice.
You can be Archbishop of Venice.
Why was Venice free?
Because that's where John PaulI came from.
So there's no archbishop inVenice and also John Paul.
I had his own friends who wereauxiliary bishops, and the
(50:27):
monsignors and all thesecretaries, so Baggio would be
there and, under completecontrol, they could watch him.
Baggio was furious, absolutelyrejected the idea, said he was
not leaving.
They were shouting, as we knowfrom the Swiss guards who
reported it Standing outside thedoor.
(50:48):
It was in the evening.
Baggio left in a huff Afterabout an hour talking and the
Pope was dead about three hourslater.
Wow, right now.
I said to Cardinal Gagnon.
I asked Cardinal Gagnon thatnext Sunday the three of us went
(51:10):
out walking.
All of Rome was talking aboutthe Pope being poisoned or being
killed.
Who did it?
Who did it?
Well, only Cardinal Gagnon knewthat the last person to talk to
him was Baggio and, as a matterof fact, the only person who
reported it was Time Magazine.
Time Magazine, of all themagazines, reported that the
(51:32):
last person to talk to him wasBaggio.
I said to Cardinal Gagnon Doyou think that the Holy Father
was murdered?
And Gagnon said to me he said,charlie, there are many ways of
killing a man.
There are many ways to kill aman.
(51:54):
You don't have to poison him.
Is that the other thing he said?
If the man had a heart attack,he had a heart attack, which is
believed that he had a heartattack.
Who caused that?
How was that caused?
It was caused by somebodyscreaming back at him as Pope.
This is unheard of.
All right.
(52:14):
So we had a second election.
The same thing happened again,with the same three people in a
stalemate.
Cardinal Benelli of Florenceagain pulls another rabbit out
of his hat and said Wojtyla ofPoland, I throw my votes to
Wojtyla.
He was elected.
Finally, wojtyla called inGagnon.
(52:35):
He said all right, show me thisstudy of three years.
Called in Gagnon, he said allright, show me this study of
three years.
And Wojtyla told Gagnon that hedidn't think about, he wasn't
thinking about, making anychanges soon.
Whatever the reason, who knowsright?
Who knows?
If somebody's telling you thatmarauders are at your door and
(52:56):
your wife and children areinside, you're not going to say
well, let me finish watching thefootball game and we'll see.
That's what he did, though hedid not act.
He received Gagnon.
I drove Gagnon to the audience,took Gagnon home and when he
came back, after speaking toJohn Paul II, he said what are
(53:18):
you doing the day after tomorrow?
I said what do you want me todo?
He said I want you to drive meto the airport.
I quit, I'm out of here.
I can't handle this.
He said let this go whereverit's going Put me back into the
jungles in Colombia and I'llpreach a devotion to the sacred
heart.
I've had it here, this is it,but he told the Holy Father.
(53:41):
He told the Holy Father threethings.
He told the Holy Father threethings.
John Paul II, three things, one,one.
You have a Freemason naming allof the bishops of the world
Right under your nose.
Secondly.
Secondly, the Vatican Bank isabout to explode, about to
(54:05):
explode in a scandal becauseit's not being handled at all.
And you've got a man who is anAmerican at this time, paul
Marchinkas, who is not a bad andevil man as many times he's
presented.
He was just an incompetent manfor finances.
He was giving letters of credit, letters of credit to strange
(54:28):
people, very wealthy people,powerful Letters of credit.
In other words, he would saywith this letter of credit, you
go to such and such a bank inSwitzerland and they'll give you
$5 million and we, the Vatican,will back that up.
Well, he did this to manypeople.
All of those people wereFreemasons, all of them were
(54:49):
Freemasons and they called allof those letters.
Now it was to collapse theVatican's finances.
This is what the whole plot was,and that was done by the
Freemasons of a lodge calledPropaganda II.
That was the lodge.
You can read all about that.
(55:14):
It was horrific.
But he said and a third thing,holy Father, there's a plot
against your life, he said.
And the Pope.
I said and what did the Popesay when you said there's a plot
against his life going on?
Gagnon said.
He answered me.
He said who would want to killthe Pope?
(55:34):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Gagnon left.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
They shot the Pope Of .
That's it.
And they and you're left, theyshot the Pope.
Of course the Vatican bankexploded.
The whole scandal.
They shot the Pope.
He's in the hospital wentthrough a whole trauma.
I don't know how he survived.
I do know how he survived.
He survived by a New Yorker, aNew York doctor by the name of
Kevin Cahill.
God bless him.
A New Yorker, a New York doctorby the name of Kevin Cahill,
(56:01):
god bless him.
Cardinal O'Connor, from NewYork, flew to Rome to save the
life of John Paul II.
The Italian doctors.
I love Italians, don't get mewrong.
I love Italians.
Their art is beautiful.
Their love, their ideas,concepts of love is beautiful.
Their music, their food isbeautiful.
Medicine is not one of thethings I love about them.
(56:22):
Their doctors had given theHoly Father.
When he was shot in theassassination attempt on May
13th 1981, they gave himcontaminated blood.
So the Holy Father is not onlydying of bullet wounds, he's now
got hepatitis.
(56:43):
I mean, they almost killed him.
Were it not for Kevin Cahillfrom New York, dr Kevin Cahill,
who flew there, he would havedied.
He saved his life.
Anyway, when the Holy Fathercame to after weeks in the
hospital, they say I wasn'tthere to hear it, but they say
(57:05):
that the first words out of hismouth were find Gagnon.
Yeah, find Archbishop Gagnon.
Well, they searched all overthe place, found him in Colombia
and brought him back to Rome.
He made him a cardinal and hegot rid of Baggio.
Finally.
All right, that's where we'reat, but this is how close we
(57:25):
came to the brink, to the brink.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
Well, you made an important point about John Paul.
I being a timid man and, youknow, not looking for conflict,
and that's kind of what I evensee.
Going into this conclave I seea lot of men.
I do see a group of men who areholy and believe the Catholic
(57:53):
faith, but they also seem verytimid to me and I'm just really
wondering like, in this comingconclave, do you think we will
see one of those highlights ofchurch history where things get
a little hectic and you know,behind the scenes they put their
foot down?
Or do you think these men aregoing to just go along with?
After the past 12 years ofseeing what the devastation
(58:15):
caused in the church, do youthink any of the men in there
are going to do what is neededfor the election of this next
pope?
Speaker 3 (58:25):
Anthony, I'm going to be very positive and say, yes,
I do believe that, because I do.
I believe that there are enoughmen in this conclave to make a
remarkable change in thedirection of the church, and I
also believe that you haven'theard from them because the
majority of them are silent.
(58:45):
We have one problem here thatwas created by Pope Francis, and
he did this on purpose.
There are so many voters thatthey don't know one another.
No one knows anyone.
This is so you're going to.
You're going to start the wholeconclave in confusion.
(59:08):
Yeah, you're starting like whoare you?
Where do you come from?
He named.
He named Cardinals in Cucamongaand in Timbuktu, where there's
no Catholic population, there'sno reason to have a cardinal.
He wanted this.
That's the way he wanted it.
Well, this is the first problemthat these men get to know each
(59:32):
other.
What are your ideas?
It takes a little bit of this.
However, I think a lot of thosemen from around the world,
especially men from Africa,cardinals from Africa, cardinals
from Asia, some from LatinAmerica, but you've got to be
careful with Latin America,because you've got the theology
of liberation, which is Marxism,going on heavy there.
(59:55):
But you've got good men there,but they're not men that shout,
they're quiet.
Some of them are very strong,but they're quiet.
They keep their opinions tothemselves.
I think that most of them Ipray that most of them have the
(01:00:17):
intelligence and the integrityto see that something has got to
be done, a-s-a-p.
It's got to be done now.
It's got to be done.
We cannot continue like this.
I think they know that and I'mpraying they do.
I'm praying they do Can't doanything other than that.
What else can be done?
(01:00:38):
And I wish I could tell you oh,don't worry, lads, this guy's in
Don't know, yeah, don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
But we haven't been surprised in 2,000 years.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
That's how we'll have to all give off right.
We'll just have to.
Well, the God of surpriseswe've heard much about for the
past 12 years, so this.
Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
This may be.
This may be one time when he'sright.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, let's see.
Let's honestly, let's just prayfor the god of surprises.
Father murray, thank you somuch for your time.
This was, uh it's.
I always love hearing from theuh, older guys who've lived
through a lot of this, because alot of us started taking our
faith seriously within the past12 years.
I mean mine.
I was a JP2 Catholic growing up.
(01:01:26):
I love Benedict.
I mean, to go from those men toFrancis was so devastating for
me that I left the sacramentsfor a period of time and, by
God's grace, I came back.
And you know, for a period oftime, and by God's grace, I came
back.
And you know this is, it's ascary time in the church for the
faithful who really arepleading with God for a faithful
man to get in that chair.
(01:01:47):
So thank you so much for this.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
I might be wrong, Anthony.
I might be wrong, but I'll betafter you left, after you left
the church for a while in thisconfusion, what brought you back
was the notion that it's timefor a good fight.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
It was part of it.
Well, congratulations, becauseyou left and came back.
I never left and we're in thefighting game.
It's time to clear up things.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Fighting.
We're in the fighting game.
It's yeah, look, it's time toclear up things.
There's even like, the easternorthodox.
I'm watching online and they'relike you know, they have a lot
to say about.
Uh, francis, and I said, do younot see how the whole world
looks to the pope of rome?
The whole world looks at thepope.
Nobody's worried about whatbishop is in the eastern
orthodox church.
There's no.
The pope of rome controls thefate of the world, whether
(01:02:40):
people know it or not.
Where the church goes, so goesthe world.
The whole world is focused onthis conclave right now because
the Pope of Rome is thesuccessor of Peter and it's the
most important institution inthe history of the world.
So, you know, everybody cancome up with their own reasons
for why they're in this group orthat group.
(01:03:00):
You know, people go, set up acontest, they go.
You guys are all crazy.
The devil is after the churchbecause it is the bride of
Christ and this is the churchhe's making his assault on and
making his attack on for a veryspecific reason.
So we are in a battle forcivilization right now.
Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
So, yeah, we all need to hit our knees.
The devil is about divide andconquer.
The Holy Ghost is about unity.
It's that simple.
Don't fall by the wayside.
Don't be divided.
Stick to what is true.
And the truth is Jesus Christ.
Christ didn't say I know thetruth, I can get you to the
truth.
He said I am the truth.
There's no way to the Fatherexcept through me.
Come be mine.
(01:03:49):
That's what we've got to stickto.
Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
All right, gentlemen, a distinct pleasure it has been
.
Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Yes, absolutely, god love you and keep up the good
work.
Keep up the yes, thank you.
God love you and keep up thegood work.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Keep up the good work .
Thank you very much.
Okay, Rob, take us out, brother.
Thank you.
Sancte, sancte, amare morti decadas nos.
In taste they're a verrant.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Good morning.
Rob and I have been looking toget you on for about two years.
We both bought Murder in the33rd Degree two years ago, uh-uh
, and we read our way through itand then something I think we
got caught up talking aboutevolution and like it was like a
(00:52):
series we did about evolutionthat I got invited to a
conference and we just didn'tget around to making sure we put
the interview together and then, like almost a year had gone by
and I I forgot about the book.
And so I saw you on JoeMcLean's show the other morning
and and you started to give me alittle bit of hope.
So I've been?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
isn't Joe a great guy ?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Isn't McLean a great guy I think he is.
So I, I, um, I kind of bouncedbetween these two places with
this coming conclave where I'mlike, okay, I'm a little bit
hopeful, Maybe we're going toget something good.
And then the other place islike, oh no, we're in the end of
the world and we're going toget the worst pope in history,
so but you were we can't havethat happen.
(01:38):
It's already happened, that'sdone, that is true, so, but it's
also interesting because Rob isfrom Minnesota and you were
born in Minnesota and I'm fromNew York and you said you
actually were, were you?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
incarnated in New York.
Sure, I'm incarnated in NewYork.
I was pastor of.
I was on 87th Street at StJoseph in Yorkville, and then
pastor at Our Lady of Guadalupeon 14th Street and then pastor
of St Francis de Sales on 96thStreet.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Oh, wow, okay, so, st Francis de.
Sales.
I know the other two I don'tyeah.
So what year were you?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
ordained 77.
I'm an old man.
I'm an old man, anthony, 77.
I'm an old man.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm an old man anthony, well, I'll be uh, I'll
be 48 years, ordained on the13th of may.
That's awesome, oh, wow, thatis awesome, may 13th, wow, yeah,
so it.
But it's also good for guyslike us to hear the perspective
of somebody who's kind of beenthrough these.
Um, because rob and I bothremember francis's uh conclave.
Uh, I remember very vividlybenedict, I don't know how, how,
(02:56):
how uh, because rob's a littlebit younger than me, but and we
I you know rob, rob and I bothkind of grew up in the in the JP
two Catholic era.
You know where it was like itwas.
There was an excitement thatwas going on in the church back
then.
There's a lot of convertscoming in and everybody.
(03:17):
Just, you know it was the newspringtime, we were talking
about the hermeneutic ofcontinuity and all these things.
And yes yes, yes, yeah, thehermeneutic of continuity and
all these things.
Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
So for the younger people thatcome in especially because we
have a lot of guys in their 20sthat watch this and they
probably just had conversions orcame into the church under
Francis it's like a totallydifferent way of seeing the
(03:37):
church and especially lookingback upon it and seeing those,
you know, seeing Benedict andJohn Paul II.
In this light of the moderntraditionalists who didn't live
through it.
It's hard to explain to themthe excitement that was going on
in the church.
But you were ordained in 1977,and you were in Rome for that 78
(04:02):
conclave right.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Both of them were in Rome for that 78 conclave, right
, both of them.
I was in Rome for the electionof John Paul II and for Pope
Benedict.
I was in St Peter's Square onall of those occasions, benedict
(04:28):
, I was in St Peter's Square onall of those occasions.
Yeah, I'll just back up alittle bit.
You're starting not at thebeginning, the two of you, it's
not your fault, you weren't bornthen.
But I'll tell you when.
The beginning was the beginningof this sort of season of hope,
of a hope that came in, came inwith the Second Vatican Council.
Now, nobody knew what theSecond Vatican Council was going
(04:49):
to be about.
Nobody knew Just that it wasgoing to be an updating of
things.
Generally speaking, the churchhad to kind of understand that
the church was in the world andhad to get a little bit more
with it, if you will.
So we were looking for changes,exterior changes and things,
(05:11):
right.
Well, there wasn't excitementin the air.
There really wasn't.
Kennedy was president, ourfirst Catholic president.
Pope John was sort of a notavant-garde, but sort of a
progressive thinking man.
But I mean, you have to seewhere he was coming from when we
say progressive thinking.
He was coming from the MiddleAges, and to be progressive
(05:34):
thinking in the Middle Ages isnot the same thing as a
progressive thinker today.
But it was an exciting time.
The problem is that it neverbecame more than an exciting
time and it was sort of downhillfrom then.
The excitement wore off inabout 1967, 68.
(05:55):
1969, the new mask came out,1970, 1969, 1970.
Through the 70s we had problems,defections, defections.
I mean.
We had 30,000 Jesuit priests in1970.
And by 1977, when I wasordained, 10,000 had left, left
(06:22):
the priesthood.
We had 500,000 nuns left theconvent, holy cow, and this
decimated not decimated depletedcompletely what the Catholic
school system was in the UnitedStates.
The two of you as much goodwillas you have have no idea what a
(06:45):
jewel the Catholic schoolsystem was in the United States
of America.
It was something to be copied,emulated by everyone in the
world.
It was fantastic.
It cost me listen to this.
When I went to grade school,you know what the tuition was.
We had all Dominican sisters.
There were no lay people.
There were no lay peopleteaching no late people.
There were no late peopleteaching anything.
(07:06):
The sisters sought eight grades.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
It was 15 a year that is, that is a that's that
included.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
That included.
That included your books, andthat was with no federal or
state help, right?
So why?
Because we had some fantasticwomen.
I cannot underscore that enough.
They're talking about thewomen's place in the churches.
These women ran the church.
They actually did.
They were the backbone of theCatholic church in America.
(07:37):
These pious women who gave upeverything in their life to
teach children to love God, andthey did an incredible job.
An incredible job.
By 1975, we had lost 500,000 ofthem.
Wow, and I'm not talking todeath, just their number.
The women who had left becamedisenchanted with their vocation
(07:59):
and just left, and everythingstarted going downhill from then
.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Now I don't want to paint a picture of doom and
gloom because there were greatspots in that too what was it
like to actually live throughthat and see those things
happening?
Because we man I kind of getI'll get a doom and gloom
outlook on the way things arenow.
But as this whole cascade ofeverything falling apart is kind
(08:31):
of in the air all these, youknow the nuns leaving their
orders and the Jesuit priestsleaving, and you know, as the
craziness of the 60s dies down,then you get the new mass at the
end of the 60s and then the 70scomes and you know, the fervor
of the revolution starts diesdown.
Then you get the new mass atthe end of the 60s and then the
70s comes and, yeah, you knowthe, the fervor of the
revolution starts to die down.
Then that conclave comes in1978 and you guys, well, the
(08:57):
church elects john paul I andthen within 30 days the man dies
.
So your whole book is aboutthat actual conclave there.
So you were in Rome for both ofthose conclaves, right, that
30-day period.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yes, look, the thing is this too.
It's not just that.
We lost 10,000 Jesuits and40,000 priests in the United
States and 500,000 nuns all overthe world, and we lost our
school system.
Schools began closing, churchesbegan closing.
Our universities were moresecular than they were Catholic.
(09:34):
We had to cover up crucifixesto be able to talk, because we
started taking federalgovernment money and therefore
religion had to be covered up alittle bit.
You couldn't be as boldlyCatholic.
So all of these things werehappening, and you know, I'll
(09:54):
tell you this.
You remember the prophetJeremiah in the Old Testament?
Oh yeah, jeremiah foretold.
He told the Jews that they wereall going to be sold into
slavery.
He said if you don't change,god is going to let you be
slaves of the Egyptians.
You're going to be.
That's it.
Well, jeremiah sat on a rockand watched his people being led
(10:18):
off to slavery and he cried outto God that he wished that he
had been wrong.
Why can't you make me wrong?
I wish I were wrong.
I wish I didn't even know thiswas happening, but I've been
telling these people this foryears.
There were many of us who knewwe were going in the wrong
direction, but nobody waslistening.
(10:39):
It's like the momentum was sostrong, it was just going on and
when you mention that somethingwas wrong, people will say no,
no, no, no, it's going to getbetter.
Just watch.
Well, it didn't get better, itgot progressively worse.
Right, so it was when, john.
Well, here's the deal In 1972,pope Paul VI was pope.
(11:09):
The deal In 1972, pope Paul VIwas pope.
He said the smoke of Satan hassomehow filtered through some
fissure in the wall and it hasfilled the sanctuary of the Lord
with smoke.
Everybody was taken aback bythat.
What in the world is he talkingabout?
This is during a homily worldis he talking about?
This is during a homily.
Finally he became.
He was a liberal, finally.
He was getting the idea thatthings weren't going right.
(11:30):
He was the Pope In 1974, twocardinals brought proof to him
that some of the members of hisgovernment, the Roman Curia at
least one, actually actually two, two were Freemasons.
They were in cahoots with theFreemasons of Italy to topple
(11:54):
the Vatican.
Now, this sounds absolutely.
It sounds crazy.
It sounds like I'm talking, I'ma conspirator's theorist.
It's actually.
It's actually true.
There are people still inprison because of that today.
Right, those who weren't killedand didn't commit suicide.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
People hear Freemason now and it sounds like you know
, oh, that's a conspiracy theory.
But if you go back before thecouncil, every single Pope since
, like the 18th and 19thcenturies, were warning about
this 1730s I think.
Actually, when the first popesstart warning about these secret
societies and talking about howthere's going to be this
(12:37):
Freemasonic attempt to you know,the Alt of Vendita comes out
and the popes were warningemphatically about this
happening.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And then they wrote the cyclicals on it right yes.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
We were not alive.
We were not alive, but duringthe time of Pope Pius IX, he was
pope for 32 years.
Imagine that he was the longestreigning pope.
Imagine that he was the longestreigning pope.
In the 1870s there was VaticanI, the first Vatican Council.
That never finished because therebels came in and took over
(13:15):
Rome.
When he died, when the popedied, he remained in the Vatican
(13:35):
for the rest of his life and heconsidered himself a prisoner
of the Vatican.
When he died, there was a battle, if you can imagine, on the
bridge of the holy angels.
If you know Rome, you knowBernini's beautiful, the bridge,
sacred bridge, in Sant'Angeliof the angels holding the
instruments of passion.
Anyway, they were crossing withhis body to be buried in San
Lorenzo.
He wanted to be buried outsideof the Vatican because he had
spent his whole life inside theVatican.
He wanted to make a statement,so he asked to be buried in San
(13:57):
Lorenzo, a beautiful basilica inRome, outside the Vatican.
On that bridge was a battlebetween the Freemasons and,
thank God for the Catholic youthof Accione Cattolica.
There was a battle that theywanted to.
They were about to throw hisbody into the Tiber River, take
(14:20):
it out of the coffin and throwit.
This is, yeah, it's incredible.
These were the Freemasons,right, this is what they were up
to and their decision was theyare absolutely pronounced
against the Catholic Church.
There's no question about it.
Now, in the 1978, 1974, we hadthis problem of these cardinals
(14:45):
bringing this to the Pope'sattention.
The Pope Paul VI called for aninvestigation and he named an
investigator who was CardinalGagnon.
Edward Gagnon, aFrench-Canadian, brilliant man,
holy man, pious man.
He worked for three years onthis investigation and told the
(15:06):
Holy Father, yes, that therewere at least two major players
who were Freemasons in theVatican.
One of them was a man by thename of Annabel Bugnini.
He was the architect, if youwill.
I think architect is a goodterm for a Freemason.
He was the architect of the newmass.
I think architect is a goodterm for a Freemason.
(15:27):
He was the architect of the newmass, the new mass that you
attend every Sunday or every dayif you go to mass.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
He was transferred out of the Vatican.
When that was discovered, hewas transferred to Iran, given a
nothing place in Iran.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
This is after he already had his hands in
creating his yes, this is.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
This is post-destruction yeah, this is
post-destruction.
Yeah, he did all the damage andthen he gets shipped off and
it's like, yeah, this is this isclosing the.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
This is closing the barn door after the horses have
escaped, right, yeah, yeah andthen?
So what was more important wasthat the man who was naming all
of the Catholic bishops in theworld, whose name was Baggio
B-A-G-G-I-O, first nameSebastian was a Freemason, if
(16:18):
you can imagine.
If you can imagine a Freemasonnaming your bishops.
He was the one who appointedbishops all over the world.
He was in charge of namingbishops.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Is it so much different than Supich?
It's incredible.
Is it so much different thanSupich telling Francis who to
elevate?
Speaker 1 (16:38):
in America.
It's not right?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
No, it's the same thing, we're still seeing
whether they have the actualmembership in Freemasonry.
Like that's right.
Doing the same exact thing,right, so I could, I could not
agree with you more how long hadbaggio been in that position?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
how long had he been naming bishops?
Speaker 3 (16:56):
at that point?
Well, uh, he was.
He was in that position for 12years, and these were post
post-coun years, post-conciliaryears when, if you bear with me
just a moment here, before thecouncil, every bishop was the
(17:17):
bishop of his diocese until hedied, just like the pope.
Yeah, if the man lived to be104, he was the bishop of his
diocese.
He was the bishop of Brooklynat 103.
Other people logically helpedhim run the diocese, but he
didn't go anywhere.
All of a sudden, pope Paul VIpublished a decree saying that
(17:42):
every man at 75 will resign,present his resignation as
bishop.
That's why bishops now resignat age 75.
Well, now, you can be againstthat, you can be for it, it
really doesn't matter.
But what I'm saying is to whathappened during that time.
All of a sudden, you've got allof these bishops, a huge amount
of bishops, who resignedbecause they're over 75.
(18:04):
All of these bishops, a hugeamount of bishops who resigned
because they're over 75.
They were replaced by liberal,progressive bishops appointed by
a Freemason, sebastian Caballo.
This is what this was.
This is incredible, yeah thiswas them.
So we had, you were right, butthey almost did it overnight.
This is what I'm saying.
(18:24):
It was just, it was a boom.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah, they take out the old guard and they put their
young revolutionaries in play.
It was almost man.
This is to not see this as evenfrom back then, because we
recently heard Cardinal Mueller.
I think it was last year hegets, he was on with Raymond
Arroyo and he's like we aretalking about a hostile takeover
(18:50):
of the Catholic Church, butthis takeover began well before
the Francis pontificate.
Oh, it didn't start thismorning.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
It didn't start this morning, I'll tell you that, and
see, and it was easier toperform because this is now
after the Second Vatican Council, after the council, that's that
.
That's proposing change.
Ok, good, so we're in thisthing of change.
So, anyone who questioned itWell, there's something wrong
(19:20):
with you.
What are you against?
Change Are?
Are you against new ideas, newgrowth?
What's the matter with you?
Yeah, okay, so everything wasgeared that way.
We had a papal nuncio in theUnited States, jadot J-A-D-O-T.
(19:41):
He was Belgian, he was the onlyson of a Belgian diamond mine
owner.
That's how you become PapalNuncio.
Anyway, he was the one in theUnited States who was selecting
these men, and then he wouldsend the names to Rome, to
(20:02):
Cardinal Baggio.
He wrote an article in, notwrote an article.
He was interviewed in Timemagazine when he resigned and he
said the proudest thing that hehad done was to name, or have
named, 75 or 78 liberal bishopsto the United States of America
who were going to effect change.
(20:23):
So we've been in this for a longtime.
The two of you, gentlemen, youwere born after the council, so
you have no real point ofreference.
But believe me, look, thechurch has always had problems.
The church is made up of humanbeings and when you've got
anything to do with human beingsyou've got problems always.
(20:44):
But I'm telling you it was runup until the 1960s Incredibly
incredibly smooth.
We were the envy of the world,seriously, and the church was
growing and growing and growingand missionary zeal.
Now I don't know if you rememberthis, but just a few years ago,
(21:05):
four or five years ago, amissionary from the Amazon, pope
Francis, was very interested inthe Amazon, whatever his reason
was, and then he brought in apagan idol and put the pagan
idol on the altar, the highaltar of St Peter's Basilica.
It's incredible.
I thought I was having a Idon't know what, not a nightmare
(21:28):
, because I was awake.
It was a day mare.
I guess I couldn't believe whatI was seeing or hearing.
But this man was a missionary.
He was an Italian priest,missionary for 40 years in the
Amazon, and the Pope invited himto the opening of one of his
(21:48):
synod talks.
This man's great pride and joywas that in 40 years he had not
baptized one single person andhe was applauded Like what.
It's incredible.
So this is the confusion we'reall in right now and after this
(22:08):
pontificate, the last one thatjust ended.
I've never seen so muchconfusion in my life.
Actually, it's not confusionbecause I, in particular, am not
confused.
I see very clearly what'shappening.
I get it.
We are in a war, that's whatwe're in in a dilemma, but I'm
(22:29):
not confused about it because Ihappen to know right from wrong
and I happen to know mycatechism since I was a boy in
school very well.
I know what the church teaches.
We're in crisis because thechurch wanted to be in crisis.
For some reason, she putherself in crisis and I'm saying
(22:49):
you can figure it out foryourselves.
I think the crisis oh, by theway, just I'll end with this
Five days ago, 10 days ago,whatever it was three lodges of
the Masonic Brotherhood inEurope one from France, two in
Italy lauded, applauded PopeFrancis.
(23:10):
This was the kind of pope we'vebeen waiting for for years.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
It was the.
And you're applauded by theFreemasons.
It was the accomplishment.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
There's something wrong.
The accomplishment of the Alvendita, francis, he, he was the
, the ultimate goal of the altavendita, and you know it's.
It's interesting to watchpeople kind of try to sugarcoat
the past 12 years.
Yes, but they were very painfulfor faithful catholics, because
all the things you're talkingabout what happened is they.
(23:52):
You know, you had yourArchbishop Lefebvre who really
was in shock when he saw theAssisi meetings, the way we were
when we saw the Pachamamaincident.
But when he saw Assisi he wasin shock like we were.
But the rest of the worldthought nothing of it and they
just looked at oh, like ahumanism, like I remember not
even hearing about the Assisimeetings until 2017.
It's, but so you for us to umthe conversation that takes
(24:17):
place after the council it's notabout traditional liturgy and
things like that.
They wind up changing theoverton window so much that the
conversation then becomesbetween the communal guys and
the concilium guys and nobody'seven talking about like a return
to tradition.
At that point they just shiftedthe overton window so much that
it it's interesting to watch 50, 60 years later, 50 like the
(24:41):
conversation about traditiondoesn't really come back until
the francisificate Under Francis.
Then we start going.
Wait a minute.
Maybe this whole council was amistake, but it took a very long
time to get there.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Yes, and let me just be clear on this, I am not of
the opinion that the council wasa mistake.
Okay, I've read the councildocuments.
I've studied the councildocuments.
There are many cases in thosedocuments where clarification is
needed.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Right, but that's all .
Clarification was needed.
This was what CardinalRatzinger and Pope Benedict was
trying to do, little by little,clarifying these ambiguous
points.
Ambiguity was the language ofthe council, because you had the
left coming in and they weretrying to get the right.
(25:37):
They were trying to pull theright with them, and they could
do that by using ambiguity.
They said what do you mean?
Well, what do you think I mean?
Oh, well, that's it.
We both believe the same thing,right, until we didn't, and it
was clear, so that ambiguity hadto be cleared up.
(25:58):
The thing with Assisi it wasshocking, because those of us
who were educated as Catholicsknew that that was wrong.
You do not pray with heathens.
You don't do that.
You don't hate heathens, youdon't hate the pagans.
That's not the point.
You love them.
They're human beings, yourespect them, but you don't go.
(26:19):
I mean the very idea that theHoly Father, the Pope of Rome,
the vicar of Christ on earth, ispraying with an American Indian
who's praying to the great toeyeah, this is mind-boggling.
Or the great thumb, I don'tknow if it was a toe or a thumb.
What are you talking about?
(26:40):
This is just.
This is crazy, and you'reputting everything on the same
level, but when this is whatFrancis just did all religions
are the same.
He said the same thing.
This is heresy.
All religions are not the same.
If you believe that allreligions are the same, you
don't belong in the CatholicChurch.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Because we have one religion.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
We have one founder, who's Christ.
That's it.
There's one way.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
That experience.
When you actually watched thathappen, were you alarmed
yourself, because I was tooyoung, I had no idea that that
even happened.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Yes, we were alarmed.
Many of us were alarmed,anthony, we were alarmed.
But at the same time, the worldaround us is saying isn't this
wonderful?
Yeah, they're all getting along.
Isn't that beautiful?
All of these religions arefinally getting along.
Who wanted that?
All along, the Freemasons?
This is what they want.
(27:40):
All religions are the same.
They're not different.
They're all praying to the sameGod.
No, we're not.
No, we're not.
We have a trinity, a triune God.
God has revealed his own natureand we hold that sacrosanct.
All of these, these other,these are superstitions and this
.
You're going to put everythingon the same level.
(28:01):
But the world applauded that.
The world thought this waswonderful.
So when you hear the applauseof the world and the world
praising you, kind of you becomea little bit quiet.
Yeah, even though you're not inagreement, you just you watch
it so okay.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So now you've, you've witnessed all of this, go on,
and then you've watched thefrancis papacy happen, but
you're still hopeful for thisnext conclave.
That because I I get.
I mean, I look at the men thatare there and I'm just like man,
it is going to take divineintervention for us to get a
(28:43):
Catholic as the next Pope.
Like there's so many men therethat aren't Catholic, they don't
have the faith.
Like these are godless men whoare concerned with the issues of
the day climate change andimmigration and they're very
political men and to me it's.
They dress up in the garb ofreligiosity but they're not
(29:07):
speaking of the God we know.
So to me, I see the Sanhedrinwhen I look at them, you know,
and I'm just begging God to bemerciful to us and give us one
of the few men there thatactually do believe the Catholic
faith.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
If you're seeing the Sanhedrin, when you're looking
at many of these men, you're anoptimist.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Oh man.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
You're an optimist.
Look, look, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
Look, look, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
I don't believe.
I'm trying to be realistic andI'm not trying to be a
reactionary, but I'm telling youI have never seen anything in
the history of the church and Iknow my my church history pretty
well I've never seen anythingin the last 2 000 years that
(29:53):
compares to the last 12.
Yeah, why?
Why do I say that?
And people will say well, we hadbad popes in the just a minute.
We might have had morally badmen living morally bad lives.
They did not contradict theCatholic faith.
Their teaching was straight on.
(30:14):
They didn't vary on that.
I always use the example ofthis.
They didn't vary on that.
I always use the example ofthis.
Probably the Borgia popes havethe fame of being the worst
popes in the world.
You have to be very careful ofthat, because that feeds into
what we call the black legend,that the English during the
(30:35):
Reformation the EnglishReformation really were
anti-Spanish, anti-catholic andthey created an awful lot of
myths.
But also, the Borgias wereSpaniards and they had the
throne of Peter.
They were hated in Italybecause they were Spaniards.
So history has not been nice tothem and a lot of things that
we read about them were simplynot true, but let's say they
(30:56):
were.
Alexander VI was pope, a Borgiapope.
He was reputed to have hadseven or nine illegitimate
children okay.
A group of priests from southernItaly made a pilgrimage to Rome
when they heard that the BorgiaPope was on the throne, and
(31:20):
they knew his fame.
They knew that he had lived alet me just call it a loose
lifestyle.
Should we put it that way?
They said.
And these priests walked fromsouthern Italy to Rome in a
pilgrimage with their concubinesand with their children, asking
for a change in celibacy.
(31:41):
This is in 1492, asking for achange in celibacy.
They said well, we've got theperfect man right now as Pope,
because he's living a wickedlife.
The Pope answered them, did notreceive them when they arrived
in Rome, but he sent a messageto them I'll take care of my
(32:02):
sins, you take care of your sins.
I'm not changing the law of thechurch to accommodate my life.
I'll answer for my sins beforeGod.
We're not changing the laws tomake my life easier.
That's not what this is about.
I take my hat off to such a man.
(32:22):
I take my hat off to such a man.
Also.
There was an english martyr thatI was just reading about, and I
should be ashamed of myself fornot remembering his name.
Uh, a womanizer, an alcoholic,during the time of henry the
eighth in england.
What was his name?
You know?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
I can't remember his, his name, but the quote that he
says when he goes to hismartyrdom is amazing.
I'll let you say the quote, butit's amazing, isn't that
fantastic?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
An adulterer, a womanizer, a fornicator.
I have always been A heretic, Ihave never been.
And he's a saint, that's it,he's a saint.
And he's a saint Because hegave his life.
He gave his life in testimonyfor that, for the truth.
Yeah, man, I can't Rob look, soI guess what I'm saying,
anthony and Rob, there's hopefor us, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, we gotta pray that the, that with the, with
the, with the office comesDivine grace St Andrew Waters.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yes, that's him.
There you go.
Yeah, st Andrew, that's right,st Andrew.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, we we have to pray with the office comes.
Uh, you know, because we'veseen that through church history
, where a crooked man winds uptaking the papacy, but then some
kind of grace gets conferredupon the man and he doesn't.
He doesn't after he becomespope.
It's almost like you know.
Yeah, that opinion was mebefore that, but now we are the
(33:43):
royal, we and I don't hold thatopinion anymore.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
And that's like St Thomas.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yes, that's right.
That's right Question yes.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
The audience here.
You mentioned that, that Boniniwas a Freemason, obviously, and
he was responsible for themajor liturgical reforms from
the 50s, you know, through theNovus Ordo.
If we have a restoration,should we go back to something
prior to everything he did?
Or how should we view the newMass through the lens of what we
(34:18):
know now about who made?
Speaker 3 (34:20):
it.
Great question.
Great question and a logicalone.
I would say this this is myopinion.
Okay, I'm giving you my opinion, which doesn't make it gospel.
Let's be clear on that.
As far as I'm concerned, therewere certain things that should
(34:41):
have changed.
We do progress with time andchanges are made in things.
The very fact that we have themass is because the mass
organically changed from itsbeginning.
Things were added, things weretaken away.
It was codified in 1570 by PopePius V.
(35:11):
Okay, but basically the masshas been the same.
The Catholic mass has been thesame for about 1800 years, and
some would say 1900 years, right, some would say 1900 years,
right.
It's been this form.
Things come, things go, thingschange.
We add, for example, we addsaints to our calendar, right?
Well, that's a change, that's achange, right?
(35:35):
Good.
So how do we change that?
How do we accommodate?
Fine, there's there.
There's also, for example, forexample, every every sunday in
the old calendar there was thesame gospel, the same gospel,
the same god, every year.
Today, in the new mass, we havea three-year cycle, and so we
(35:56):
we're, we get a little bit moreof scripture put in.
I think that's refreshing.
I think most priests agree withthat.
These are wonderful changes.
What's not wonderful is havingpeople skateboarding at the
offertory, women dancing duringthe consecration, women dancing
(36:19):
during the consecration, priestsinventing this, doing hulas and
shouting no.
This is insanity.
This isn't change.
This isn't good.
We've lost a whole sense of thesacred.
We've lost a whole sense of thesacred.
I'm not saying that we have togo back to.
(36:40):
Everything was perfect before.
Everything was not perfectbefore.
That's why they called thecouncil.
Everybody saw that there was aneed for a little bit of dusting
off, a new look at some things.
For example, we never had untilrecently, the entire Mass was
(37:00):
in Latin.
Right Now, what I'm saying isso were the readings.
So were the readings Now whatPopes, even before the Council,
said you can do the firstreading in the Gospel in the
vernacular Marvelous Good, sopeople can understand it.
This is the gospel in thevernacular Marvelous Good, so
(37:21):
people can understand it.
This is what I'm saying bychanges.
Right, it's not necessary to goback.
What's necessary is to reform,a proper reformation, and that
can happen.
There's some dusting off.
That needed to be done.
It was done.
It wasn be done.
It was done.
It wasn't done.
It was overdone.
(37:41):
They threw out the baby withthe bathwater.
This is what I'm saying.
This is what happened.
Let me give you an example.
We had one canon.
What is the canon?
The canon is the mass after thesanctus, holy, holy, holy, lord
God.
Right After that, until thecommunion is finished, that's
(38:03):
until the up to communion.
That is the canon.
Not one word of that was to bechanged.
The council said this.
I didn't say this.
The Vatican council, too, saidnot one word of the Roman canon
is to be changed.
Yeah, well, that's pretty clear, isn't it?
The last time you went to mass,I'll bet you didn't hear the
Roman canon is to be changed.
Well, that's pretty clear,isn't it?
(38:24):
The last time you went to Mass,I'll bet you didn't hear the
Roman canon.
What did Bunini do?
Bunini said well, now, just aminute.
The council says that we can'tchange one word of the Roman
canon.
I know what we'll do.
I'm going to invent three morecanons.
Yeah, right, so we've gotEucharistic prayer number one,
(38:47):
number two, number three andnumber four, and this isn't.
This is crazy.
This isn't what the councilsaid to do.
And then he puts in all ofthese.
And you know that.
I've just got to tell you this,because this, to me, is one of
the most unbelievable things.
I heard it myself from FatherLouis Boyer.
He worked with Buñini in thecreation of the new Mass.
(39:14):
I heard him say this himself.
I heard him say this himself.
He did a conversion in his lifeand came back to reality, but
he reported this.
The second Eucharistic prayer.
This is the one that you hearevery time you go to Mass.
You know why you hear itBecause it's the shortest, not
(39:37):
because it's the most beautiful.
It's the shortest.
You are holy, indeed the mostbeautiful, it's the shortest,
you are holy indeed.
Lord, the fountain of allholiness, let your spirit come
upon these gifts to make themholy, so that they may become
the body and blood.
That's the second that waswritten by Father Bouyer.
Now be careful here.
If you listen to Bognini whenhe presented this, he would tell
(39:59):
you that this is the oldestcanon of the Catholic Church.
We found this, we found thisamong the documents.
This is the oldest and it's themost beautiful.
Father Bouillet finallyconfessed.
He said no, I was out to dinnerone night in Trastevere at a
pizza place, having a glass ofwine with a consociate, and I
(40:19):
noticed that my canon, thisEucharistic prayer, had to be on
Bunini's desk at 10 o'clock thenext morning.
We wrote it out on a napkin inthe restaurant.
This is what we're using.
Is that an organic developmentof the mass?
What's organic about that?
(40:40):
An organic development of themass, what's organic?
Speaker 2 (40:43):
about that, Except for the pizza sauce and even the
receiving on the hand is it'santiquarianism.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
All of that is terrible.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's just antiquarianism.
It's like, oh, we found somestatement from Justin Martyr who
talks about this.
But it's like it's just thereason that the church developed
these things over time wasbecause they knew that it would
be the best for souls and theliturgy that the church
developed sustained civilizationfor nineteen hundred sixty
(41:11):
years.
So to just kind of overturnthat is just insane.
Like, yeah, you're right, thereare, there is room for maybe
making people able to hear thegospel and the readings and the
vernacular, but you know, tojust wholeheartedly just upend
everything like that was.
It must've been shocking forthe people, especially those,
(41:33):
the little ones, the devoutlittle ones who just you know
they would.
They would just go to mass andthen all of a sudden everything
changed on them.
It must have been such a hardthing.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Let me tell you something else too, anthony.
That was fantastic Because ofCatholic schools.
We were 54 people in myclassroom, 54 students and one
nun maintained order 54, right,and believe me, we learned.
Anybody who graduated from aCatholic school was two years
(42:03):
ahead of public school kids, wewere taught.
We had what was called thedialogue mass.
We were taught as children theanswers to all of the responses
in Latin.
So when we went to mass and thepriest said Dominus vobiscum,
we answered that conspiracy.
To all Sursum corda, weanswered avemus ad dominum.
(42:26):
We answered this.
This was.
Our participation was fantastic.
It wasn't that we werecompletely ignorant.
We knew what was going on.
Communion in the hand.
This was a creation by MartinLuther.
Don't let them tell you, thisis the early church.
Martin Luther did this to ruinthe idea that Catholic
(42:49):
superstition of the realpresence.
Yeah, and it worked real well.
Last year they did a study,didn't they?
70% of American Catholics donot believe that that host is
the body of christ.
Well, congratulations, theywere.
They were successful in theircampaign.
Yeah, that's what they wantedto do.
(43:10):
You know, you know this too.
If you're married, you can tellme how much you love your wives
.
But if I see you in publicmistreating her, calling her
names or paying no attention toher, you're not going to fool me
that you love your wives.
I see the way you treat her.
Well, if we treat the blessedsacrament that way filthy hands,
(43:34):
pieces falling on the floor,we're walking on them.
Anybody can give out communion.
It's a hodgepodge and we we'vedone this and we've done it for
the purpose of taking away thesacred.
We have two directions on thecross, our symbol.
Two directions horizontal andvertical.
(43:56):
We're left with this.
Yeah, just vertical.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
So, true, um, okay, so to go back, to go back to the
conclave that elects john paulI.
So he gets elected, now he'sonly there for 30 days and then
he dies.
Now 33 days.
33 days now, what, what?
Because it's, it's a verymysterious circumstance that
(44:22):
happens with him.
What, what, what do you thinkhappened there?
Speaker 3 (44:30):
first of all, why was he elected?
yeah all right, I I go.
I I'm not going to get into mybook, but it's in the book and I
don't want to get bogged downwith detail.
The election was between threemen Cardinal Siri of Genoa,
Cardinal Sebastian Baggio of theRoman Curia and Giovanni
(44:53):
Benelli of the Secretary ofState, the Secretary of State.
When Benelli saw that Baggiowas gaining in votes, Benelli
threw his votes over to aneutral candidate by the name of
Albino Luciani from Venice.
He won.
So Cardinal Benelli of Florencewas the one who saved the day
(45:21):
in that, and he was a friend andally of Gagnon right.
Yes, yeah, these are the goodguys.
These are the good guys.
But what I'm saying is we hadfor a moment, for a while, while
we had a Freemason leading therace.
(45:41):
Could you imagine actuallyelecting a Freemason?
Speaker 1 (45:48):
as Pope of Rome.
I think it happens.
Speaker 3 (45:52):
You don't have a real hard time imagining that, do
you we?
won't go into that.
Let's steer away from that,shall we?
I like having my head attachedto my neck, but the point is
this.
The point is this he won theelection, luciani, he's a good
(46:15):
man Let me start by this one Aman who first of all, believed
in God yeah, and feared God inthe proper sense of the word.
To fear the Lord, the firstthing he did was he asked
Cardinal Benelli to be hisSecretary of State and Cardinal
(46:36):
Benelli said yes, he agreedstate.
And Cardinal Benelli said yes,he agreed.
As soon as you call in CardinalGagnon, who actually was
Archbishop still at that time,archbishop Gagnon, who just
finished the three-yearinvestigation of the Roman Curia
, that is, of your government,holy Father, the people you've
got who are surrounding you, youhave to read his report because
(46:59):
there's some house cleaningneeded to be done before we go
any further.
There's some people to just saygoodbye, to get them out of
here and clean house.
Well, the Pope, john Paul.
I called in Gagnon I knowbecause I drove Gagnon to the
(47:22):
audience.
He went up and saw the Pope,handed him his entire study, the
three-year study on the RomanCuria, and came down very
positive.
We drove back home.
He was elated with the audiencehow it went.
And the Pope took the documentsand was studying them.
He finally came to this he saidthe Pope now said the Pope was
(47:46):
a little bit timid.
If he had one defect it was hishe was shy.
It's like all of us Nobodywants confrontation, we don't
look for it.
If it happens, okay, ithappened, but you're not out
looking for it.
Those we call brutes Brutes areout doing that.
Well, sometimes those subwayscan be brutal, anyway.
(48:15):
So the Pope called in Gagnon.
Gagnon gave him the study andhe began studying exactly what
had to be done.
So he said to the pope JohnPaul, I called Benelli in
Florence, said you're going tobe my secretary of state, you're
(48:37):
going to come back to theVatican and help me run this
place.
Yes, he said, why don't you getrid of Baggio?
Why don't you get rid ofCardinal Baggio?
Baggio was in power, believe me, he was in power.
And Benelli said no, holyFather, you have to do that.
You as Pope have to do that.
That has to be the first thingthat you do as an act that
(49:00):
people can see, so they knowwhere we're going, where this is
going.
You have to do that.
I can't do that for you.
You've got to do it, all right,all right.
Well, he tried getting anappointment with Baggio.
Baggio refused to see him.
He was busy constantly.
Imagine telling the Pope thatyou're busy.
He was busy constantly.
Imagine telling the Pope thatyou're busy.
(49:21):
Yeah, so, no, no, I can't makeit today.
Sorry, I'm busy.
I've got a ping pong lesson orsomething.
Whatever.
He made up incredible, just anincredible man.
Finally, the Pope said to himlook, I need to speak.
We need to speak.
When can you come?
He said well, today is off.
He said then tonight, thentonight.
(49:44):
He said don't tell me you'rebusy tonight After eight o'clock
.
You're busy.
What are you doing after eighto'clock?
I'll wait for you here in myoffice at eight o'clock.
Well, bajo arrived at 8 pm thatnight.
They sat down and talked andthe Pope offered him.
(50:06):
He said leave the congregationfor bishops and you can take
Venice.
You can be Archbishop of Venice.
Why was Venice free?
Because that's where John PaulI came from.
So there's no archbishop inVenice and also John Paul.
I had his own friends who wereauxiliary bishops, and the
(50:27):
monsignors and all thesecretaries, so Baggio would be
there and, under completecontrol, they could watch him.
Baggio was furious, absolutelyrejected the idea, said he was
not leaving.
They were shouting, as we knowfrom the Swiss guards who
reported it Standing outside thedoor.
(50:48):
It was in the evening.
Baggio left in a huff Afterabout an hour talking and the
Pope was dead about three hourslater.
Wow, right now.
I said to Cardinal Gagnon.
I asked Cardinal Gagnon thatnext Sunday the three of us went
(51:10):
out walking.
All of Rome was talking aboutthe Pope being poisoned or being
killed.
Who did it?
Who did it?
Well, only Cardinal Gagnon knewthat the last person to talk to
him was Baggio and, as a matterof fact, the only person who
reported it was Time Magazine.
Time Magazine, of all themagazines, reported that the
(51:32):
last person to talk to him wasBaggio.
I said to Cardinal Gagnon Doyou think that the Holy Father
was murdered?
And Gagnon said to me he said,charlie, there are many ways of
killing a man.
There are many ways to kill aman.
(51:54):
You don't have to poison him.
Is that the other thing he said?
If the man had a heart attack,he had a heart attack, which is
believed that he had a heartattack.
Who caused that?
How was that caused?
It was caused by somebodyscreaming back at him as Pope.
This is unheard of.
All right.
(52:14):
So we had a second election.
The same thing happened again,with the same three people in a
stalemate.
Cardinal Benelli of Florenceagain pulls another rabbit out
of his hat and said Wojtyla ofPoland, I throw my votes to
Wojtyla.
He was elected.
Finally, wojtyla called inGagnon.
(52:35):
He said all right, show me thisstudy of three years.
Called in Gagnon, he said allright, show me this study of
three years.
And Wojtyla told Gagnon that hedidn't think about, he wasn't
thinking about, making anychanges soon.
Whatever the reason, who knowsright?
Who knows?
If somebody's telling you thatmarauders are at your door and
(52:56):
your wife and children areinside, you're not going to say
well, let me finish watching thefootball game and we'll see.
That's what he did, though hedid not act.
He received Gagnon.
I drove Gagnon to the audience,took Gagnon home and when he
came back, after speaking toJohn Paul II, he said what are
(53:18):
you doing the day after tomorrow?
I said what do you want me todo?
He said I want you to drive meto the airport.
I quit, I'm out of here.
I can't handle this.
He said let this go whereverit's going Put me back into the
jungles in Colombia and I'llpreach a devotion to the sacred
heart.
I've had it here, this is it,but he told the Holy Father.
(53:41):
He told the Holy Father threethings.
He told the Holy Father threethings.
John Paul II, three things, one,one.
You have a Freemason naming allof the bishops of the world
Right under your nose.
Secondly.
Secondly, the Vatican Bank isabout to explode, about to
(54:05):
explode in a scandal becauseit's not being handled at all.
And you've got a man who is anAmerican at this time, paul
Marchinkas, who is not a bad andevil man as many times he's
presented.
He was just an incompetent manfor finances.
He was giving letters of credit, letters of credit to strange
(54:28):
people, very wealthy people,powerful Letters of credit.
In other words, he would saywith this letter of credit, you
go to such and such a bank inSwitzerland and they'll give you
$5 million and we, the Vatican,will back that up.
Well, he did this to manypeople.
All of those people wereFreemasons, all of them were
(54:49):
Freemasons and they called allof those letters.
Now it was to collapse theVatican's finances.
This is what the whole plot was,and that was done by the
Freemasons of a lodge calledPropaganda II.
That was the lodge.
You can read all about that.
(55:14):
It was horrific.
But he said and a third thing,holy Father, there's a plot
against your life, he said.
And the Pope.
I said and what did the Popesay when you said there's a plot
against his life going on?
Gagnon said.
He answered me.
He said who would want to killthe Pope?
(55:34):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Gagnon left.
Speaker 3 (55:40):
They shot the Pope Of .
That's it.
And they and you're left, theyshot the Pope.
Of course the Vatican bankexploded.
The whole scandal.
They shot the Pope.
He's in the hospital wentthrough a whole trauma.
I don't know how he survived.
I do know how he survived.
He survived by a New Yorker, aNew York doctor by the name of
Kevin Cahill.
God bless him.
A New Yorker, a New York doctorby the name of Kevin Cahill,
(56:01):
god bless him.
Cardinal O'Connor, from NewYork, flew to Rome to save the
life of John Paul II.
The Italian doctors.
I love Italians, don't get mewrong.
I love Italians.
Their art is beautiful.
Their love, their ideas,concepts of love is beautiful.
Their music, their food isbeautiful.
Medicine is not one of thethings I love about them.
(56:22):
Their doctors had given theHoly Father.
When he was shot in theassassination attempt on May
13th 1981, they gave himcontaminated blood.
So the Holy Father is not onlydying of bullet wounds, he's now
got hepatitis.
(56:43):
I mean, they almost killed him.
Were it not for Kevin Cahillfrom New York, dr Kevin Cahill,
who flew there, he would havedied.
He saved his life.
Anyway, when the Holy Fathercame to after weeks in the
hospital, they say I wasn'tthere to hear it, but they say
(57:05):
that the first words out of hismouth were find Gagnon.
Yeah, find Archbishop Gagnon.
Well, they searched all overthe place, found him in Colombia
and brought him back to Rome.
He made him a cardinal and hegot rid of Baggio.
Finally.
All right, that's where we'reat, but this is how close we
(57:25):
came to the brink, to the brink.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
Well, you made an important point about John Paul.
I being a timid man and, youknow, not looking for conflict,
and that's kind of what I evensee.
Going into this conclave I seea lot of men.
I do see a group of men who areholy and believe the Catholic
(57:53):
faith, but they also seem verytimid to me and I'm just really
wondering like, in this comingconclave, do you think we will
see one of those highlights ofchurch history where things get
a little hectic and you know,behind the scenes they put their
foot down?
Or do you think these men aregoing to just go along with?
After the past 12 years ofseeing what the devastation
(58:15):
caused in the church, do youthink any of the men in there
are going to do what is neededfor the election of this next
pope?
Speaker 3 (58:25):
Anthony, I'm going to be very positive and say, yes,
I do believe that, because I do.
I believe that there are enoughmen in this conclave to make a
remarkable change in thedirection of the church, and I
also believe that you haven'theard from them because the
majority of them are silent.
(58:45):
We have one problem here thatwas created by Pope Francis, and
he did this on purpose.
There are so many voters thatthey don't know one another.
No one knows anyone.
This is so you're going to.
You're going to start the wholeconclave in confusion.
(59:08):
Yeah, you're starting like whoare you?
Where do you come from?
He named.
He named Cardinals in Cucamongaand in Timbuktu, where there's
no Catholic population, there'sno reason to have a cardinal.
He wanted this.
That's the way he wanted it.
Well, this is the first problemthat these men get to know each
(59:32):
other.
What are your ideas?
It takes a little bit of this.
However, I think a lot of thosemen from around the world,
especially men from Africa,cardinals from Africa, cardinals
from Asia, some from LatinAmerica, but you've got to be
careful with Latin America,because you've got the theology
of liberation, which is Marxism,going on heavy there.
(59:55):
But you've got good men there,but they're not men that shout,
they're quiet.
Some of them are very strong,but they're quiet.
They keep their opinions tothemselves.
I think that most of them Ipray that most of them have the
(01:00:17):
intelligence and the integrityto see that something has got to
be done, a-s-a-p.
It's got to be done now.
It's got to be done.
We cannot continue like this.
I think they know that and I'mpraying they do.
I'm praying they do Can't doanything other than that.
What else can be done?
(01:00:38):
And I wish I could tell you oh,don't worry, lads, this guy's in
Don't know, yeah, don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
But we haven't been surprised in 2,000 years.
Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
That's how we'll have to all give off right.
We'll just have to.
Well, the God of surpriseswe've heard much about for the
past 12 years, so this.
Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
This may be.
This may be one time when he'sright.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, let's see.
Let's honestly, let's just prayfor the god of surprises.
Father murray, thank you somuch for your time.
This was, uh it's.
I always love hearing from theuh, older guys who've lived
through a lot of this, because alot of us started taking our
faith seriously within the past12 years.
I mean mine.
I was a JP2 Catholic growing up.
(01:01:26):
I love Benedict.
I mean, to go from those men toFrancis was so devastating for
me that I left the sacramentsfor a period of time and, by
God's grace, I came back.
And you know, for a period oftime, and by God's grace, I came
back.
And you know this is, it's ascary time in the church for the
faithful who really arepleading with God for a faithful
man to get in that chair.
(01:01:47):
So thank you so much for this.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
I might be wrong, Anthony.
I might be wrong, but I'll betafter you left, after you left
the church for a while in thisconfusion, what brought you back
was the notion that it's timefor a good fight.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
It was part of it.
Well, congratulations, becauseyou left and came back.
I never left and we're in thefighting game.
It's time to clear up things.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Fighting.
We're in the fighting game.
It's yeah, look, it's time toclear up things.
There's even like, the easternorthodox.
I'm watching online and they'relike you know, they have a lot
to say about.
Uh, francis, and I said, do younot see how the whole world
looks to the pope of rome?
The whole world looks at thepope.
Nobody's worried about whatbishop is in the eastern
orthodox church.
There's no.
The pope of rome controls thefate of the world, whether
(01:02:40):
people know it or not.
Where the church goes, so goesthe world.
The whole world is focused onthis conclave right now because
the Pope of Rome is thesuccessor of Peter and it's the
most important institution inthe history of the world.
So, you know, everybody cancome up with their own reasons
for why they're in this group orthat group.
(01:03:00):
You know, people go, set up acontest, they go.
You guys are all crazy.
The devil is after the churchbecause it is the bride of
Christ and this is the churchhe's making his assault on and
making his attack on for a veryspecific reason.
So we are in a battle forcivilization right now.
Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
So, yeah, we all need to hit our knees.
The devil is about divide andconquer.
The Holy Ghost is about unity.
It's that simple.
Don't fall by the wayside.
Don't be divided.
Stick to what is true.
And the truth is Jesus Christ.
Christ didn't say I know thetruth, I can get you to the
truth.
He said I am the truth.
There's no way to the Fatherexcept through me.
Come be mine.
(01:03:49):
That's what we've got to stickto.
Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
All right, gentlemen, a distinct pleasure it has been
.
Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Yes, absolutely, god love you and keep up the good
work.
Keep up the yes, thank you.
God love you and keep up thegood work.
Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Keep up the good work .
Thank you very much.
Okay, Rob, take us out, brother.
Thank you.
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