Bloody Queen Bess - The Real Story of England’s Protestant Revolution - Avoiding Babylon

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:31):
So we were supposed to have Ryan Grant on tonight,
but like apparently he justdoesn't show up for things.

SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
Bloody desk got him.

SPEAKER_03 (00:40):
Ghost.
I apologize.
Okay, so Ryan wanted to uh geton to discuss the English
Reformation.
We talked about it for twoweeks.
Oh, perfect.
Here's Ryan.
It's about time.
Punctual.
Very, very punctual, Ryan.
We are on air.
Definitely late.
Yeah, we're late.
I'm letting you know.

(01:03):
I mean, feel free, but okay.
So two two things before we getstarted, though.
One is um my brother, uh, foranybody that watched our last
episode, we did a fundraiser formy brother.
We raised uh$21,000 to get toget my brother to get my brother
a new oil burner, and thereshould be plenty of money left

(01:24):
over to get him a car.
I went and told him about itFriday after work.
Um, I was going to record it,but I I just felt like recording
it, especially to post on socialmedia.
It just I just something felt sowrong about it, and I wanted to

(01:44):
allow my brother to just reactwithout having a camera in his
face or anything.
Um it was of it was a prettyemotional thing, and it it I was
just so happy to do this for mybrother.
They went today and started theproject, it should be done by
Thursday, Friday, the latest.

SPEAKER_02 (02:04):
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (02:05):
He I all I can tell you is um the the one thing he
just he just he was just like, Ican't believe I got good news.
I'm just so used to getting badnews.
Like he was just veryoverwhelmed.
It was an amazing thingeverybody did.
I shut the fundraiser down, nomore money is coming in.
We have plenty of money to dowhat we're going to do.

(02:26):
He wants to come on and thankeverybody, so we'll figure that
out.
But I just it just man, you seeeverybody recording everything.
And if like Rob even said, he'slike, I mean, if you record it,
it's gonna get a ton of views,and it'll be one of those
things.
But I just not everything has tobe that repeat what I said after
that.

SPEAKER_02 (02:45):
You make me sound terrible.

SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
No, no, no, oh, yeah, no, no, no.
Rob said, but yeah, you may notwant to record it because it's
like allow he literally what I'msaying right now, Leia.
Rob, Rob, that was actually whatRob said.
He was like, Yes, it'll get aton of views, but you might want
to allow for just a touchingmoment between you and your
brother.
So that that's what we wound updoing.
My brother does want to come onand um and say thank you to

(03:07):
everybody, so we'll figure thatout.
Um, but uh, so Ryan wanted todiscuss the English Reformation,
but this is Kale's like favoritesubject, but also Kale is about
to do a course on CharlesDickens a Christmas Carol, and
I'm going to be joining thecourse and doing it with him,
and I wanted to give him alittle chance to promote it uh

(03:27):
for anybody that wants to do it.

SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
It's an online course, so Kale, take it away.
Yeah, appreciate it.
Thanks, Anthony.
Thanks, Rob.
Good to meet you, Ryan.
Uh, but we're starting, I'mdoing a four-part course on
Charles Dickens.
Everybody knows the story, butfew of us have actually read the
book.
It's a really fantastic um it'sa classic, and it's sort of an
opportunity to kind of do a deepdive into what exactly makes
this thing a classic.

(03:49):
It's four parts, it starts onNovember 25th, and then each
Tuesday for four weeks for fourweeks.
And so I'm kind of pitching itas sort of this first part of a
two-part series I'm doing.
The first one is gonna be forAdvent, the season of
preparation, the Christ child iscoming.
And so, how do you get yourselfprepared for it?
And then the second part, whichwill be a separate course unto

(04:11):
itself, is gonna be oddlyenough, I know it might sound
strange, but uh the great story,Sir Gowan and the Green Knight,
because Sir Gowan and the GreenKnight wanna do that one too.
And it takes place in Christmastide, the you know, the 15-day
full season.
And I think that's verysignificant that it takes place
uh during Christmas tide.
So that's gonna be a realbanger, too.

(04:31):
But first, we're gonna doCharles Dickens, the classic
Christmas Carol, um, Scrooge andall that, and then we'll do the
the the the second part of thedeep dive after um after
Christmas and into the news andwhat an awesome time to do, and
what a way to do it duringAdvent to go through this story,
guys.

SPEAKER_03 (04:48):
Let's pump this thing out.
Everybody joined this class,let's do it together.
I'm excited for it.
He just did Dante.
How did that class go?

SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
It was great, man.
I so I kind of just did it on awhim because I'm kind of sitting
around like, all right, I gottado something and uh put it out
there.
And uh my sort of what I wasthinking is like honestly, if I
could just get 10 people to signup at like a hundred bucks, you
know what I mean?
Like it'll be a nice sort ofthing, anyway.
So I did it.
I got my 10 within about a week,and then the second week I had

(05:18):
20 and 30, 40.
I got up to 60 people signed upfor the class.
It was awesome, it was a greattime.
That is so great.
Yeah, so it did that, I did thatone in six um, you know, six
blocks because it's a longerbook.
Um, and it's it's pretty darncomplicated and complex.
But uh man, had a great timedoing it.
So for me, it's kind of likeproof of concept.
It's it's ultimately it's thekind of thing, you know, that I

(05:39):
think we can be doing inaddition, you know, all four of
us pay attention to what's goingon and in the church and in
politics and all that kind ofstuff.
But this sort of helps us buildout a kind of broad base, kind
of reconnect us to that thatknowledge base that many of us
did not get, you know, and andI'm sort of playing catch up
like everybody else.
So that's really the idea.
Touching on some of theclassics.

SPEAKER_02 (05:59):
Where and how do we sign up?

SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
Yeah.
So um, I guess I could put alink on here, and I can I'll put
the link in the chat.
Does that work, Rob?

SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Yeah, then I'll put it in the description.

SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
Yeah.
Um, and uh, so uh it'll be I'llbe doing it's it's live
streamed, right?
It'll be like a webinar typething.
Uh you'll get a link, you'll getshow notes, uh reading guides
and all that kind of stuff.
And then um uh, but if you can'tshow up like on a Tuesday night,
you've got something going on.
Um, everybody who signs up forthe course has um rights, you
know, you get the recordingsright away, so you can kind of

(06:30):
watch it on your own time.
But there really is something ifyou can make it during the live
sessions, it's like that's whereI like I feel it.
It's like a it's a good it's agood jam.

SPEAKER_03 (06:37):
So so wait, you're doing it on Tuesday nights?

SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
Yeah, is that bad?

SPEAKER_03 (06:42):
Yeah, we might have to we might have to shift our
show for the for advent becauseI want to be in that class, so
we'll figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
No, but he said that's why I didn't do Dante
because it was on Tuesdaynights, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (06:51):
Now, yeah, it and it partly sorry, I apologize about
the conflict, but like my I workat a boarding school, so my
schedule is pretty darn tight.
Uh, I put the link in thedescription, Rob.
I don't know if you you you gotthat, but uh not the link in the
description, in the notes in thechat.

SPEAKER_02 (07:06):
Um, but um but again that's that's only your notes.
Oh, that's in private chat or incomments.

SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
Oh, okay.
I'll do it in private chat.
I'll send it to you and then youcan uh you can do it.
Um, but uh like I said, you'llhave access to the recordings.
You'll get you know, I'll giveyou reading guides and all that
kind of stuff, and uh it shouldbe great, it's a good time.
And and the chat, I gotta say,the chat during the dot date
classes was kind of distractingfor me because uh I kept looking
at the case.

(07:34):
Great, yeah.
Yes, yes, yes, that's exactlyright.
I know at a certain point I hadto like just block it out
because I had to get through thecantos, you know.
But um, but you do it to say thethe Dickens thing, it's like
everybody knows this story, butman, there's something about
reading a story like that andkind of getting into the
nitty-gritty of the language.

(07:54):
Of course, it's written inEnglish, it's it's Victorian, so
there's a little bit of youknow, it's a little bit
difficult at first, but you getinto it really quickly and you
really see why this story isenduring.
You know, it's it's just reallygood stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (08:06):
Okay, so uh Ryan, you had reached out.
This is this is like your youruh your your um your uh well I
don't know what the hell I'mlooking for, like your thing,
the the English Reformation.
You would you had told us like acouple times like if we ever
wanted to do a deep dive into asubject, this was this was your
specialty.

(08:26):
Uh in preparation for this, I uhthe rest is history, Tom
Holland's podcast.
They did like a four-part serieson Twitter.
Yeah, so I I watched all four ofthose yesterday to try to catch
a little bit of so I could addsomething to the discussion, but
I'm I'm gonna imagine you andKale are gonna take Rob and I on
a bit of a journey because Kaleloves this uh time period as

(08:49):
well.
Um now um I'm gonna leave it toyou guys where you think we
should start off on thissubject.
Should we start with Henry theEighth, or should you have you
have a different point whereyou'd want to jump off?

SPEAKER_00 (09:01):
Well, actually, I've got an image below Rob, and if
you want to put it up, I justadded it.
Um, so this is Henry VIII'swill.
And so at his death, so HenryVIII, of course, had broken from
Rome to get a son.
Uh his daughter was verypopular, but within his living
memory, he had to hide in thetower.
Well, the Perkin Warbeck'srebellion, pretending to be the

(09:23):
princess in the tower, had youknow threatened his father's
throne, and he would have beenkilled too.
So the lack of a male heir withthe backdrop of the disastrous
Wars of the Roses, this, youknow, Henry's just not sure a
woman could could make it on thethrone.
And then, you know, in then addon the dynastic situation.

(09:45):
Go ahead.
I just want to jump in.

SPEAKER_01 (09:46):
I think this is an important point that we have we
think of monarchies through thelens of like the French
monarchy, which is sort ofabsolute and total.
Yeah, but when you look at realmonarchy, it was as much of a
political balancing act thananything we see in in politics
today.
And I think people have atendency to think, oh, well,

(10:07):
he's Henry VIII, he can kind ofdo whatever he wants.

SPEAKER_00 (10:09):
Well, that's not exactly right, he does, but he
has to do right in a verycertain way, and he always does
it with parliament, usingparliament.
He learns this from his father.
His father had done largely thesame thing, he had controlled
parliaments, he had stackedparliaments when he needed to,
uh, much against the the Yorkistuh aristocracy who very much
hated him.
Yes, and of course, Henry has avery weak claim to the throne,

(10:31):
Henry Tudor, because theydescend from the Beaufort line.
The Beauforts are descended fromJohn of Gaunt, just as the uh
the um the valid, the legitimatelines of the aristocracy did,
but through his mistress,Catherine Swinford, who was the
au pair who then later becamewife after a few illegitimate
children.

(10:51):
So the uh the bastard childrenfrom that marriage they get
legitimized in the Beaufortline.
Beaufort's marriage, you know,Margaret Beaufort marries Owen
Tudor.
He dies just before she givesbirth to Henry Tudor.
So the idea that he would everget to the throne, it's
ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 (11:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Except for the the final end of the the Wars of the
Roses, which when they seem tohave ended, right, in the
Yorkist house and everything.
So and then that could be a ashow in itself.
But needless to say, that thetutor line is weak.
Um when Mary marries Philip, forexample, Philip II of Spain,
he's not Philip II of Spain yet,he has a greater claim to the

(11:29):
throne legitimately than eitherMary or Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_03 (11:34):
Which is why they were which is why they were so
worried about him, they thoughtlike England would then be just
become Spain, right?
Like right.

SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
We'll get to that.
Uh there's there's more dynamicsin that particular arrangement.
But so ultimately, so the tutorline is weak, and so Henry, of
course, he breaks from Rome toMary Anne Boleyn.
That doesn't actually turn outto work for him.
And and the the general scuttlebutt in the 1520s, late 1520s,
is Anne is a witch and she'scast a spell on Henry.

(12:03):
By about 1535, Henry starts tobelieve it.
Maybe she is a witch.
They fall out very badly.
Anne does not transition frommistress to queen, and on top of
that, uh she miscarried withtwin sons.
The only thing she had producedwas Elizabeth.
So she again, like Catherine,she fails at royal baby maker,
which is essentially what aqueen is supposed to be.

(12:25):
She didn't give him thatlegitimacy.
So falls out badly, and thenthere's a conf confluence of
things that lead to AnneBoleyn's fall.
One of those things is actuallyMary Tudor, uh, who becomes Mary
the First, Henry's oldestdaughter, and her supporters who
want her restored, so they seethat with Henry and Ann falling

(12:45):
out, they approach Cromwell,Nicholas Carew, the groom of the
stool, uh, what a Henry's groomsof the stool, very good friend
of Henry's for a long time.
Henry ends up killing him in afew years.
Um, he works with Mary and theirother supporters to work with
Cromwell.
Now they think they're playingCromwell, they don't realize
that Thomas Cromwell is a masterpolitician and a guy who knows

(13:07):
Machiavelli practically byheart.
Right.
And so he sees an opportunity toadvance his own position.
He's fallen out with Anne Boleynbecause you know he he's much
more radical than she is onreligious reform questions.
And she's challenging what hewants to do with the dissolution
of the monasteries.
He wants to use that to enrichhis friends and other, you know,

(13:27):
his squires, other people, andlesser aristocracy.
Anne wants to put this to usefor schools and other
foundations, and crumb was like,Well, she does that.
Man, I'm toast.
Uh, it's the end of thisdissolution bill.
It's not gonna do what I want itto do.
So he's already fallen out withher, and then he then now he's
in a position like Woolsey waswith Anne, where he's like, All
right, well, she doesn't likeme, and she's with Henry.

(13:51):
Um, I'm I'm toast here.
I'm gonna end up like Wolseyunless I do something.
Enter uh, you know, Mary Tudor'ssupporters, Nicholas Crew, uh,
Margaret Um Bradley.

SPEAKER_03 (14:03):
Well, you're you're also flying over little details
that are um probably a littlebit important, like like Wolsey.

SPEAKER_00 (14:10):
Wolsey is well, that's kind of in the background
from where we're at.
Well, we can get into Wolseybecause Wolsey now he was the
son of an Ipswich uh innkeeper,is usually on the wrong side of
the law.
The the records in Ipswich havehim you know show his Wolsey's
father being fined twice a yearfor keeping an unclean house.
In other words, operating uh abrothel on the side.

SPEAKER_03 (14:31):
Is is he is he Bishop of Canterbury?

SPEAKER_00 (14:34):
No, no, he's he's Archbishop of York, but he's
Cardinal Alaterra.
He he is the Pope's personalrepresentative from the 1517
through uh until it's strippedfrom him in the late 1520s.
Um, and what happens withWolsey?
He he gets into the free grammarschools, he goes the
ecclesiastical route, and um,you know, and so he becomes

(14:57):
Henry's mover and shaker.
He gets things done for Henry,and that's why he maintains the
position he has.
He's able to banish factionsfrom court by controlling who's
at court and to keep you knowHenry's favorites out hunting or
doing other things or oustingwith knights in France or
whatever, and he's able tocontrol court.
And Boleyn's arrival undoes hiscontrol of court, like the

(15:19):
beginning, and on top of it, shehates Wolsey.
And at the risk of uh, you know,get I depends that we we might
never get to Marianne Elizabeth,I guess.
If we want to get into more ofthat, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 (15:30):
I want to I want to make sure we do get there
because I know my whole jobtonight is to make sure Ryan
doesn't go off on too crazy oftangents or no be on you
literally just kind of asked himto go off on more tangents.
No, I I know Ryan now by thispoint.

SPEAKER_00 (15:42):
Like Ryan will actually purposely gone through
my old PowerPoints to curatewhat I've been saying for
things.

SPEAKER_03 (15:51):
Well, the the the thing I want to I wanna lay lay
out is like Henry is uhoriginally before before he's uh
while while he's still lookingfor his divorce and he's still
officially with Catherine ofAragon, he's writing a defense
of the papacy, right?
Like he received the titleDefender of the Faith again

(16:12):
against Luther, like and andthen even towards the end of
Henry's life, like he starts torevert back to his Catholicism,
like he doesn't like some howsome of the reforms have gone.

SPEAKER_00 (16:22):
Yes, and no, there's a mix in that, and I guess we
could approach that, but in1522, he had written his book,
uh Sertios Septum Sacramentorum,where he defends the seven
sacraments against the MartinLuther.
And in the preamble, he writesthis very powerful defense of
papal authority.
Now, Thomas More and Moore looksover this in horror and he says,

(16:48):
Uh, my liege, perhaps you shouldleave all this out because Henry
believed in what we believeabout the papacy, but more did
not.
Moore um had not read Latter inV's Condemnation of
Conciliarism, so he wasconvinced that actually a
council was above a church.
It wasn't until working withFisher on how to address
heretics in England that he readthat.

(17:09):
He realized, wow, I've beenwrong about this.

SPEAKER_03 (17:11):
Wow, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 (17:12):
I didn't also because Moore's not a great
theologian, brilliant thinker,devout man, pious man, right?
Right.
Right in the fathers andeverything, but he's not, he
doesn't make theology hisprovenance in practice.
He he's you know, law,obviously, and also philosophy
and Greek.
That's that's where hisinterests are.
He lectures in in uhAnglo-Norman French, formerly in

(17:33):
the law schools, like atVernables in and whatnot, he's
also sits as a sheriff, he's ajudge, and you know, and then as
a privy counselor as well.
His favorite pastime is Greek,not theology.
So even though he's a brilliantwriter, and so he but he
followed Erasmus in this ideathat the papacy was merely a
human institution.
So in the aftermath of uhLuther's reply to Henry, uh

(17:58):
Fisher writes a letter becauseHenry can't acknowledge Luther's
reply diplomatically, because itis all these insults to Henry,
and a king has to be seen asabove this kind of childish and
abusive language.
So uh, however much he might useit in private or whatever.
So Fisher writes thisoutstanding treatise, which um I

(18:18):
actually didn't mean to doshameless plugs, but I do
publish it.
Uh the only English uhtranslation has ever been done
of it, uh, The Defense of theRoyal Assertion Against Martin
Luther, uh, which is on theMediatrics Press website, it's
very much in stock.
I got lots of copies of it.
Great book.
He just shreds everything aboutLuther, 100%.
So Fisher now uh sorry, Mooretakes an interest in Fisher.

(18:39):
And you know, previously theyhad they had only been vaguely
aware of each other, and theystart writing more as Moore is
more concerned about the in theinflux of heresy into England.
Fisher's writing more worksagainst Luther, and then as
Moore is reading it, he realizeswow, the fathers are absolutely
clear that the papacy is uh thedivinely constituted office.

(19:00):
This is not just a human office,this is part of the divine
constitution of the church, thatthere is a pope as a successor
to St.
Peter, and and he reversed hisold position on that, and to the
point where he is now ready todie for it in 1535, whereas
Henry has utterly repudiated it.
The complete reversal from adecade earlier.

SPEAKER_03 (19:20):
What uh what what uh Kale and I have talked about is
uh because we were we were justtalking in the green room about
the stripping of the altars,reading that book.
Yeah, and because I think a lotof people's idea of the
reformation is that it was arevolt of the people against the
church, like a bottom-up revolt.
And that that book kind of shedslight on how this was the elite

(19:42):
of the time basically justforcing this from the top down
to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
It's Henry, it's it's very I wrote an article
about this that you can see atPelican Plus, actually, the the
Pelican Brief.
Uh, they published it there onthe nature of the English uh
Reformation.
And I I argued in there uh bythe fact that this is very much
Henry's personal initiative.
Henry is the one who is puttingthere, might be people in place

(20:08):
that are Protestant, frankly,like Kramer will be he will be
seen to be that.
He's not seen to be thatdirectly, at least publicly, in
1527.
Uh Cromwell also is leans tothat opinion.
Uh what Protestant means isstill, you know, it's actually a
political term to to Germanprinces, both Catholic and
Protestant, opposing Charles Vand his centralizing policies in

(20:30):
Germany.
And the term doesn't get appliedmore widely until the
Schmuckaldic League.
And then even then, what is aProtestant?
The dividing lines aren't reallythere in 1527.
The notion of what that meansgradually crystallizes over the
next 20 years or so.
So um the result is that youknow Henry is pushing his own

(20:54):
initiative to get what he wants.
And that's the the entireReformation, it has his personal
stamp and character on it, andthat it's nature.
That's why English uhProtestantism is so different
from uh Calvinism and Geneva,even though it detects a lot of
Calvinist doctrine underElizabeth, it's so different
from Lutheranism or anythingelse, at least in its initial

(21:15):
stages, because it keeps the thecorpse of the church like a
Frankenstein monster with a newhead on it in Henry's image.

SPEAKER_03 (21:23):
It's kind of like uh post-consiliar Catholicism.
Um, what's interesting is umbecause I I I I wanted Cale to
come on because there was aconversation between Cale and
Paul Vanderclay where they werediscussing this time period, and
this time period cannot be justseen, like you can't just look

(21:44):
at this through the lens ofEngland.
What is going on in the widerworld is extremely important.
Like the new world was justdiscovered, the printing press
has been invented.
There's like technologicaladvances that have never been
seen in the world before.
You have in Munster thislunatic, the Anabaptists are

(22:04):
starting starting their revolt.
Like, there's so much going onduring this time period that I'm
pretty sure most of most ofEurope thought the apocalypse
was happening.

SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
I mean, it it was end times fever is already on um
on the docket, as it were,because it back at Savonarola,
you know, and they're on andhe's very much you know infected
with the antichrist design, uh,you know, everything's gonna end
soon.
People have this all over uhEurope.

(22:38):
And so Luther's arrival playsinto this in two ways.
Some people see Luther, and thisis a sign we're in the end
times, the the formation of theAnabaptists, you know, the end
times are near, so hey, don'tsow, don't you know, go in the
fields and ends up becoming thisalmost semi-Manichean cult under
Vanderleiden at the at the endof it all.
Um, but then you also get on theflip side, uh, Lutheranism plays

(23:01):
very heavily into the end timesfever.
So that um the Pope is theAntichrist, but now we have the
Church of the State, uh theSaints that is at war with
Antichrist in the final you knowrun of it.
So you get in May 20 uh 29th ofuh 1527, you have uh Charles the
Fifth is really angry with thePope because he is as much as

(23:25):
Charles has done for the churchand and uh fighting against
Lutheran things.
Now the Pope has decided Charlesis too powerful, so he's gonna
lie with the French and theymake the League of Chamburg.
So the uh Charles is reallyticked off.
So he decides to send an armywithin striking distance of Rome
to basically say, Hey Pope,you've done bad.

(23:46):
And in the midst of it, heforgets to pay them and
whatever, because he's alsoputting down a revolt in Spain,
the Commoneros Rules, right?
So in the midst of all this,then the army's like, hey,
where's their pay?
And they get ticked off.
And now it's made up of a lot ofmercenaries, some of whom are
Lutheran.
They're called Lans Connects.
And I think I talked about themanother time, and uh, I'm not
gonna that that that's a tangentwaiting to happen.

SPEAKER_02 (24:08):
Yeah, they got the stream kicked eventually.
Oh, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 (24:11):
Yeah, we did get into that.
Yeah, so I think so.
Some of the cores are Catholic,some of the Lans Connect cores
are Lutheran, they run by theirown rules and everything.
So the Lutherans they revolt,they mutiny their commanders
can't get them back in order.
One of the commanders, he'sFrench, I can't remember his
name off the top of my head.
He decides to get together toget to organize them all, say,

(24:33):
we're gonna go to Rome, we'llmake the Pope pay your wages.
And they all say, Yay! So theyand Rome wasn't really prepped
for an attack.
So they come in now.
Two weeks before this, there wasa guy named Petroyo, and he was
like a weird mystic, uh, wouldcome in, give little prophecies
and stuff.
So he comes half naked um andstands at the statue of St.
Paul's um outside um the theVatican when the uh uh Pope

(24:56):
Clement the Seventh isprocessing in um after Easter,
and he says, Clement, thou manof Sodom, Rome will be destroyed
in 14 days and a fortnight uhbecause of your sins.
And they kind of laugh at himand ignore him.
This guy's half naked, it looksmad.
Exactly that amount of time, theuh Lance Connects come into the
city and uh just completelydevastated, like all of in Rome

(25:20):
was like the Renaissance capitaluh of Italy at this time, they
because it the popes have workedreally hard to outpace Florence
and make it the jewel ofRenaissance Italy.
They destroy everything they dothings that would make this
Nazis and the Soviets blush,actually, to be perfectly
honest, without recounting allthe time.

SPEAKER_03 (25:36):
You you also see um with with some of the Pope's
decisions to with Charles V andeven the the racking of his
brain on how to handle the theHenry VIII situation.
It's like you see the Pope inthese um temporal matters maybe
airing in judgment on somethings, and it's like I think a

(26:00):
lot of people have this ideathat before the council the
popes were perfect or something.
It's like we've had some messypopes who made some awful
temporal decisions and done somereally stupid things.
Uh, Andrew said the Tutors is agreat series to watch.
I I did watch all the Tudors.
Uh I don't think you shouldwatch it.

SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
I mean, if you like a certain drama with some poor
quality acting uh in someplaces, I guess um it's not
there's certain elements thatthey do try that that that you
can tell they tried.
They did Thomas More really wellin that series.
Yeah, they did Fisher horribly.

SPEAKER_01 (26:33):
Well, well, and I I think I think they did the young
Henry pretty well because youknow, we tend to think of uh
Henry as the big fat bloated guywith seven no, he was young.
He was an absolute you know unitof a man.
I mean, he was he was like hewas big, he was strong, he was
athletic, he was handsome, hewas smart.
I mean, he really was the fullpackage.
Um, and you can really see whysomebody like Thomas More, you

(26:56):
know, who was invested in hisearly education, you know,
really struggled because hereally thought that Henry was
kind of the answer, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (27:05):
So well, I mean, as it is, it is at the beginning of
uh Henry's reign, he actuallywrites a book more.
He's like starstruck.
He writes a book and it'sactually it will put into
illuminated manuscript, it's inthe royal collection of Latin
verses that he delivers to Henryuh when Henry's uh coronation
procession winds aroundCheapside, and he declares that

(27:27):
after uh the winter king, namelyHenry Henry's father, now with
you know as the end of ourslavery, it be now is the
beginning of a golden age.
That's it.
More says to kill Henry on hiscoronation procession.

SPEAKER_03 (27:41):
Well, that's also like so.
When you get to Elizabeth, theycall Elizabeth is the golden age
and stuff like that.
But I do want to touch on uhlike we're gonna jump ahead a
little bit.
Henry goes through throughAmbelyn and then he goes through
all his other wives, but Marywinds up getting put back into
the line of succession.
And when Mary takes the throne,shh, um, I don't the the way um

(28:04):
the rest of his history handledit, I thought was pretty good.
They were saying like Marydidn't really think that because
like you said, the like thephrase the reformation didn't
even take hold yet.
Like they people just thoughtthere was some things that were
a little out of whack thatneeded to be tightened up, and
so Mary gets in and she's tryingto clean things up.

SPEAKER_00 (28:23):
Now she has this reputation of being bloody Mary,
but she really didn't even showup until the 1600s, but yeah,
that's that's a yeah, that'sright.

SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
That's pretty much that's an ad campaign, that's a
post hoc ad campaign to justmake to just make Catholicism
look awful.

SPEAKER_03 (28:42):
But it really Mary really was like a very merciful
queen when she was in.
She that I think they said thatall through the course of her
entire reign, only 300 peoplewere put to death.
But as queen, yourresponsibility is to put down
rebellions, and if people aretrying to cause uprisings and
things like that, you reallyhave no choice but to keep those
in check.

(29:02):
Otherwise, people constantly bechecking.

SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Mary and Elizabeth are not any different, or even
for that matter, Edward to acertain extent.
Um, they're a little morecaprice with Edward, but with
Mary and Elizabeth both, the waythey deal with rebellion is
basically the same becauseProtestant you got Wyatt's
rebellion.
So, right away, when Mary uhsends as queen and the
announcement that she's going tomarry Philip of Spain, you have

(29:26):
uh a reaction amongst the thevery committed Protestants that
this is bad, we need to revoltagainst this.
And so you have Thomas Wyatt umrevolts.
He's a soldier, he's got he'slanded gentry, his father
actually was a court poet,composed a great poet, a great
poet.
Very good poet.
Um so Thomas Wyatt starts arebellion and it's supposed to

(29:47):
kick off in various counties.
A lot of them get stopped beforethey happened, but he actually
has a strong contingent oftroops.
Now, everybody sells Mary shortat every stage of her accession,
so even when they had intruded.
Lady Jane Grey and to try tostop Mary from taking the
throne.
The imperial ambassador SimonRenard doesn't think she has a
chance.
Um, you know, he thinks it'sdone.

(30:08):
Uh, it turns out to be quitefalse.
The French don't think she hasany chance of getting the
throne, and it actually goesexactly the other way.
Uh, Wyatt's Rebellion is thesame thing.
Simon Renard writes to theEmperor Charles V, he says,
Yeah, she there's no way she'sgoing to survive this.
And he's already packing up thestate papers to get the get him
out of London.
And but Mary, she uh now she'sextremely well educated, and

(30:29):
she's an excellent publicspeaker.
So she goes to the guild hall inin London, and which is where if
you're like you're looking toget, you know, very you conduct
business in off days, and ifyou're running for magistrate,
you'll give speeches there.
So she gets and she assembles asthe choirs to assemble the
people, and she gets a speechthat's so impassionate, moves
the crowd, even the Protestantsin the crowd are moved by it.

(30:49):
Where she says that you know,that you know, she has one ring
that truly matters, hercoronation ring.
And by that, she is married toher people, and that they always
you know are first in heraffections.
I should have pulled that upbecause it's a great speech to
read.
But um, so that that moves theLondon populace.

(31:09):
And so when Wyatt shows up, thegates are shut, they're supposed
to be open, they're shut.
And then you know, their troopsare able to move in, she's able
to raise a small army, but it'snot really necessary.
A lot of Wyatt's support meltsaway.
They try to get away, they'recaptured and arrested.
And so that that's dissipated.
But this tells Mary that thatshe needs to focus on where is

(31:32):
this rebellion coming from?
Well, from Protestantism, notjust from people in the country,
but the people who we kind oflet go out because we basically
showed them the door if theydidn't want to be here, the
Marian exiles, and they set upin Switzerland.
So, like if you've ever seenlike the Geneva Bible, for
example, that comes fromProtestants who left England
under Queen Mary and went toGeneva and translated the Bible

(31:52):
over there.
So they um, you know, all thevarious Protestant groups, they
represent the potential for arevolt against her throne.
So that's why so what's hersolution to use the church to
level that um that threat.
So in that, and with the returnof Catholicism, there's the

(32:13):
return of the heresy laws.
And so that's the vehicle thatshe chooses.
Now, interestingly, there weretwo critics of this.
Uh, one were her own bishops,and two were the Spanish.
So Alonsa de Castro, who is aconfessor for Philip while he
was there, um, he actually urgesagainst severity in punishing
the heretics, lest it bring upill-feeling and possibly more

(32:33):
revolt and be you know, do moreharm than good.
Uh, another critic on the otherhand was the bishops.
Now, the re there's a reason forthis.
So when Mary restoresCatholicism, uh, you know, she
appoints people, she she's quickto forgive some people who are
very much a part of the policyof breaking from Rome, like
Stephen Gardner.
I mean, she never forgaveCramer.

(32:54):
Kramer was like that's you know,Tom Holland, Dr.
Holland says uh Mary didn't holdgrudges.
That is absolutely true in everyrespect, except for Kramer.
But Gardner was just as much apart of the break from Rome and
the divorce uh Henry's annulmentfrom Catherine as uh Kramer was.
Does she does she uh does doesshe put Kramer to death?

(33:16):
Uh yes, we'll get to that.
Um so it but good but thebishops in the in Mary's
Restored Church, and they do alot of great work, by the way.
Uh the Counter-Reformation inEngland, it's a real thing.
And if she had lived or had anerror, it it would have
extirpated Protestantism fromthe realm.
It was wildly successful.
Um, the the reason it fails isbecause she doesn't produce an

(33:37):
error.
That's that's why thecounter-reformation is doomed.
Otherwise, what do you think?
Well, in fact, let me justfinish this.
The bishops, a lot of them,Cuthbert Tunstall, uh, Bishop
Bonner, Stephen Gardner, theywere all diehard Henry uh in the
Henry Sk Henrichian schism.
They were all part of that.
And when Edward got moreradically Protestant than they

(33:59):
were ever prepared to go, theyresisted, they were put in the
tower, they accepted Mary, andthey completely subscribed to
the reinstitution ofCatholicism.
So uh, but now here's theproblem.
So they're proceeding againstvarious heretics, and the
heretics say, Well, I justbelieve what Bishop Bonner
believed uh five, six years ago.
Hey, I believe hey, uh, the bookI'm following was written by

(34:20):
Bishop Gardner over there.
And that's the book I follow.
Are you gonna burn me forbelieving what what the bishop
here are you are you gonna burnme for believing what you wrote?
So it's a huge problem, anuphill battle that and they're
unfortunately put in the frontlines very much against their
will Bishop Bonner at a certainpoint.
Somebody comes announced aheretic and he just says, Go
away.
He doesn't want to be doing itanymore, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (34:43):
When I was listening to the to the Tom Holland uh
series, man, I just couldn'tlike get it out of my head.
Like, like, why didn't God allowone of them to produce an heir,
like a male heir?
Like you think, because I'malways thinking in the grand
story of things, and it's likelike God could have given one of

(35:08):
them a male heir, like Mary getscancer and she dies young.

SPEAKER_00 (35:12):
I mean, she's in her 30s, but forties, but still, you
know, for especially for royaltyin the time, you know, it's um
it's God's permissive willversus his providential will,
and it could be there wasn'tsufficient grace for so uh in
terms of merited by the membersto to get that result, and in
terms of God's permissive will,and his providential will did
not see the need you know to tooverturn this.

(35:35):
Um, it could be other, it couldbe it's part of his plan.

SPEAKER_03 (35:38):
I that's what I that's what you are thinking
about.
Like, I'm looking at it likethis is actually how God works
through history by allowingthings like this to happen, and
it kind of leads to thedissolution of of of all of
Christendom because you you loseEngland, and that puts all these
really difficult um marriages,like there's no now.

(36:02):
You can no longer marry like thethe the a princess from France
anymore, or it really puts allthis strain on how Europe even
interacts with each otherbecause of these individual
countries leaving Catholicism.
Now you can't have these strongalliances like you once did,
where you would marry yourdaughter to this prince, and

(36:23):
you're you know, you would havefamilies coming together to keep
the line of succession going.

SPEAKER_00 (36:28):
And you look at Mary's uh marriage to Philip,
and if you watch some historiansthat they talk about this, the
disastrous Spanish marriage, itwas always a mistake, blah,
blah, blah.
Um, there is very good reasons.
Actually, Mary's choice to marryPhilip was um, I mean, it's part
of her emotional attachment tothe Hobbsburgs and specifically
Charles V, but it makes itextremely sound political

(36:51):
policy.
Because uh, where does Englandmake most of its revenue?
How is it that the tradeinternationally, where is that
done?
It's done at the Netherlands,it's done in Antwerp at the in
the wool markets at theexchange.
Well, yeah, right where Englandmakes its its bank.
Um, and who is the Lord of theNetherlands?
Well, the Hobbsburgs and Philip.

(37:11):
So it's a dynastics you know,policy makes sense.
It also follows the tradition ofHopsburg Tudor relations going
back to Henry the Seventh.
And it's only been in the last20 years people have been
researching this and gettingback into the sources.
And I've been following thiskeenly, I've been trying to do a
lot of that on my own.
But there the Hobbsburg TudorAlliance goes back to Henry VII,

(37:32):
and because you have MaximilianI, the Holy Roman Empire,
Emperor, and he's he's the withso many titles, the lord of so
many lands and perpetuallybroke.
And but he's also bankruptingHenry VII's biggest rival,
Edmund de la Poole, who is uhlegit uh you know, a better
claim to the throne than HenryVII has.

(37:52):
So he needs to to stop all thevarious rebellions that are
being fomented, he needs to stopthe bankrolling of Edmund de la
Poole.
Easiest way to do that is uh payoff the emperor, and so he
starts he just starts making uhalliances with Maximilian, he
started Philip the Good inBurgundy, he starts sending
money, tons, I mean a hundredyou know, thousand marks.

(38:15):
Uh, there's another year, likethe almost the whole annual
revenue of England, Henry theSeventh sends to the the the
Hopsburgs.
And then when uh Philip the Goodand his wife Joanna, Catherine's
older sister, they try to makegood on their claim to Spain,
they get shipwrecked in England,and it becomes the rather
involuntary guest in the seven.
And then Henry the Seventhbasically is maximum, hey, you

(38:37):
know, in addition to some moremoney, let's make a trade.
You can have your son back, andI get the Duke of Suffolk,
Edmund Dillapool, which isprecisely Western Earl of
Suffolk.
I always except English period,sorry.
So and that's exactly whathappens.
They make the trade.
So then the Earl of Suffolk goesinto the tower before uh getting
beheaded, and um Philip the Goodgoes back to Burgundy.

(39:01):
So the um, you know, that thatis an old alliance, and it's
important politically forEngland, and so it makes
absolute sense at every level.
It also, if there's an error, itit absolutely shures up the
succession beyond doubt.
Because again, like we said,Philip uh the second, he's got a
better claim to the throne thanMary.

SPEAKER_03 (39:20):
And he there's there's two things I want to
touch on, also.
Um, one is why was Catherine ofAragon never canonized?
Because that woman lived anabsolutely saintly life.
I mean, she was humiliatedbefore the world, remained a
devout Catholic and a good wife,and never I just don't

(39:44):
understand why there was never abig enough cult around her to
start the start the process.
And the other is uh I want todiscuss the recusant Catholics
during this time.
And we should probably get weshould probably do an ad for
recusant before we discuss therecusant Catholics.

SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I bloviated a bunch, uh as if Kayle wants to jump in.

SPEAKER_01 (40:05):
No, I I I really appreciate the the you're
bringing a level of complexityto the kind of low resolution
that people um I in both sides,right?
You know, both sides sort oftraffic in these kind of very
simple, you know, fat crayolacrayon markers when they're
talking about this this timeperiod, but that the intrigue

(40:26):
behind you know matters ofchurch and state, you know, when
the pope is acting as the headof the church versus when the
pope is acting as the head ofthe papal states, their
relations with all the royalfamilies throughout Europe.
I just think this is such animportant um thing to insert.
And into your question, Anthony,you know, why does God allow

(40:48):
such things?
I mean, I think that's a greatquestion.
I mean, I think that's a youknow, and and maybe it's one
that hasn't been fully answeredyet, right?
I mean, I you know, these thingsare still in essence playing out
even now.

SPEAKER_02 (41:00):
You know, um, I've been reading uh Buchanan's book
on Churchill, Hitler, and thethe unnecessary war.
And yeah, you you see how muchum kind of uh the Whig
progressivism has has pushed somuch of history over the last
hundred years and and prior tothat.

(41:21):
And I wonder if you don't havethe English Reformation, do you
get that kind of you know, thatWhig push uh of always
progressing history to the nextstep?

SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
And you know, well, you can really see, Rob, you can
really see why they they believetheir own hype in that regard.
I mean, like England really doespropel itself uh you know into
world domination, and all thosepeople who all those ancestors
that helped Henry do his thing,you know, through the
establishment of himself as thehead of the Church of England,

(41:51):
you know, they were paid for umhandsomely by his largesse.
And those guys went on toconquer the world.
And so you could you can imaginesort of thinking, like, hey, I
think we're on the right side ofhistory, right?
I mean, we we make those kind ofjokes all the time when we hear
somebody like Obama say it, andand and and you know, sort of
the left progressive element inour own country, but this notion

(42:13):
of a right side of history isfueled by, and it's hard, you
know, their success.
I mean, they were incrediblysuccessful, and a sharmada, he
defeated the greatest empire ofthe world, right?
We're talking about that an actof God, right?
I mean, like that's the way thatthey saw these things, and it's
hard not, you know, it would bevery hard to resist the
temptation to grab providence umunder your own hand, right?

(42:37):
In that regard, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:40):
No, absolutely 100%.

SPEAKER_01 (42:42):
You know, and I would just one more thing.
You know, I I take a group ofstudents to England every year.
Um, we go primarily to Oxford,and what's amazing to me as an
American and as a Catholic, youknow, you go there and the
reformation is just still it'sit's the big elephant in the
room everywhere you go, everychurch, you know, every every

(43:03):
you know, function, every uhevery building, everything, it's
it's it's empire, this this likeradical fusion of church and
state.

SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Amazing too how it developed.
So you look at Saint Paul's andyou see Union Jacks, you've got
statues to secular poets.
You can't have a statue ofSaint, but you've got statues to
secular poet.
Uh Lord Nelson is buried in thecrypt, and actually in the start
off because it was meant forHenry the Eighth.
Yeah, um, that's fine.
There's a story behind that,too.
So you've got all of thesethings, and uh the it becomes

(43:35):
just this bigger and biggertent, secular and uh even the
act of union 1714.
Right, Scotland is aPresbyterian country, it is not
an Anglican country.
So, what do they do?
For the Act of Union, uh theScottish Presbyterian Church is
the official church of Scotland,still is, and uh then when the
monarch goes to Scotland, hechanges religion, he becomes a

(43:58):
Presbyterian as long as he is inScotland, and then when he goes
back to England, he goes back tobeing an Anglican, or she
amazing, and that's how theysolve the the disparities of the
two countries.
You know, it's uh a strange youknow mix, but again, it it is
the national destiny of England,especially as um Englishman, you
at least used to learn it.

(44:18):
I mean, I guess now it's Islamis the national destiny, but um
anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (44:24):
No, that's interesting.
So they can't have statues tosaints, but they can have
statues to secular figures, orit's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 (44:32):
Who else is in there?

SPEAKER_01 (44:32):
Well, I mean you go to Westminster, I mean the
crypt, yeah.
I mean, go go go intoWestminster Abbey and you'll
really see this.
You know, that's like poor SaintEdward the Confessor is sort of
in prison behind the altar, thisbeautiful, amazing shrine to
him, but it it's essentially anoccupied building, you know.
And I say this is like I'm I'mkind of weird because I'm kind

(44:53):
of an anglophile.
Like, I mean, I kind of dig thewhole UK thing, but it's hard to
go into that building and notsee it as you know, well, it's
kind of like the Haggia Sophiain an interesting sort of way,
right?
It's it's a it's an occupied,um, stolen valor or something
like that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (45:09):
Well, you see that culture gets transferred to the
US to the to America becauseit's the English that colonize
here, right?
So you see these secularmonuments to past presidents.
We have Mount Rushmore, you havethe Lincoln Memorial, you have
all these things, and becausestatues really are such an
important part of culture.
It's why you see in you we stillhave Roman statues from the

(45:33):
times times before Christianity.
Hits we still have these Greekstatues.
Statues are a very importantpart of culture, and that
reformation transfers over toAmerica, where you'll have these
Protestants telling us weworship statues when they it's
like threw away you threw awayyour your heroes of the

(45:54):
Christian faith for forFreemasonic heroes, the rotunda
of the White House is theWashington painted by an Italian
and modeled after the ascensionof Saint Ignatius in in San
Ignacio in Rome.

SPEAKER_00 (46:06):
They they actually Protestants who would never
assent to the the assumption ofthe Blessed Virgin Mary paint on
the roof of the rotunda thispainting of the ascension of
George Washington into heaven.

SPEAKER_03 (46:16):
You know, it's like if you like a proper country, we
would have a statue of our ladyinstead of the statue of
liberty, right?
So they'll tell us we'reworshiping a statue when we when
we're praying next to a statueof our lady, but they literally
put a pagan goddess in the NewYork Harbor, like a pagan
goddess is what my last commentin fairness to John Knox, he

(46:38):
would have torn down a statue tohim as well.

SPEAKER_00 (46:40):
He would not have consented to a statue of him,
just to be fair to John Knox.

SPEAKER_03 (46:44):
But I've I've said they like they did it with
Charlie Kirk, like they theythey basically canonized Charlie
Kirk overnight when he passed,right?
There the I've seen uh picturesof Protestants praying at a
statue of Billy Graham.
It's like you guys just don'tbecause Catholicism is so
intuitive, right?
Right.
Like what we what what what wedid was so intuitive to you know

(47:08):
it we were we replaced the pagangods with the saints, the saints
then became the governingauthorities over these different
areas where there would havebeen some pagan god that was
worshipped, and then we bringthe relics of the saint in, the
pagan god gets pushed out now.
That saint is the governingspirit of that area.

SPEAKER_01 (47:24):
Yeah, Venice is a perfect example of this, right?
That that is a banger story, bythe way.
The the the bones of Saint Markand the theft of the bones or
the whatever well, the theft ofthe bones of Saint Mark is just
a great story, but I believe nowyou might know this better than
me, Ryan.
I believe Venice was wasdedicated to Mars.
It was one of the pagan godsspecifically.

(47:46):
I don't remember which one offthe top of my head, but they had
to sort of take Saint Mark askind of like a replacement for
that for that, like to to crowdout the spirit of that pagan god
and sort of establish SaintMark's Cathedral in the middle
uh of Venice.
It's uh it's really funny.

SPEAKER_03 (48:02):
When you go to when you go to Florence, it's um it's
really strange when you go toFlorence because like every
Catholic site I went to in Italywas dedicated to the saints, but
then you go to Florence and yousee how much money perverted
them, and you have similar towhat like it's like you have

(48:26):
statues to Machiavelli, and youhave it's really strange what
they do.

SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
But that's such a retrofit.

SPEAKER_00 (48:32):
I mean that's an anachronism, but it's more you
do see other things though inFlorence, like the Medici, for
example.
Um, you have you know CosmetVecchio, right?
The Cosmo the old, he's thefounder of the Medici dynasty,
or he's a banker, he's a usurer,and so he cannot actually you
know go to confession, right?
He goes to Eugene the Fourth andhe says, Well, you know, other

(48:55):
people they give you a painting,they they they put some nice
word altar in a hospital.
What if I build you a wholemonastery?
I'm just gonna give you a wholemonastery.
So San Marco in in in uhFlorence, uh the Dominican
monastery there is then built,and uh Fra Angelico, you know,
it paints the cycle, the lifecycle of Saint Dominic and the

(49:16):
cells.
There's actually, if youeveryone knows that Fra Angelico
uh picture of her theAnnunciation, right?
But where it sits, if you go toSan Marco in Florence, you go up
the stairs, when you first go upthe stairs, you can see the
annunciation, and it looks likeit's part of the monastery
because fra Angelico is reallygood at its mathematical

(49:36):
proportions, and by scale, thebuildings look like it's another
cortile in say in San Marco, andso it looks like what's the idea
with the goal is that realismthat you're trying to approach
with so much renaissancepainting, bring the the the
visual mysteries into our livedspace.
It's what you're trying to do.

(49:57):
So you look at you know theenunciation, it looks like it's
happening in some wing of themonastery as you're going up the
stairs.
Then you get closer, you see itas a painting, you know.
But its size and its scale, asyou go up the stairs, it looks
like the enunciation ishappening in some corner of the
monastery.

SPEAKER_03 (50:11):
One of the most jarring things that we saw when
you go to the Duomo in Florence.
First off, the nothing canprepare you for walking up on
this building, yeah.
Because you're going down sometiny little alleyway, and you
have no idea you're about towalk up on it, and all of a
sudden the thing's just there,and it's the most incredible
cathedral you'll ever see inyour life.
It's just on the outside, you'venever seen a building adorned

(50:36):
like this, but there is like youhave you have our lady on the
duomo below Machiavelli.
Like Machiavelli puts himselfabove our lady.
It's it's such a weird sight tosee that you just see money, how
how it corrupts people, and Idon't know.
It was a it's a very weirdexperience to go see, and then

(50:57):
you go inside the duomo, andit's the most bare, empty space
you could go to.
It's this on the outside, youthink you're going to walk into
something incredible, and youwalk in, it's just this bare,
empty space.
It's really strange.

SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
I don't know the building to know when that
happened or if it was alwaysthat way, and so um so all
right, so uh recus and sellers,Rob Recucin Cellars, and then I
want to talk about the Recus andCatholics.

SPEAKER_02 (51:25):
Such a great uh great transition there.

SPEAKER_03 (51:27):
Well, Ryan didn't talk for like three seconds, so
I figured I'd meant to show it.
Ryan knows I love it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:34):
Man, it's sorry.

SPEAKER_03 (51:40):
Uh Regus and sellers, you could use code
based at checkout for 10% off inhonor of Christ the king.
I think we could get rid of theyeah, I need to change the
banner, but so uh use code basedat checkout for 10% off.
Uh Regison Cellars is uh awinery out in Washington.
They're a beautiful Catholicfamily that has sponsored our

(52:02):
show for quite some time now.
We love them.
If you guys can show them somesupport, they also have fruit,
they can they can deliver wineto most states.

SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
And I never can't, but I'm not sure what you're
doing.

SPEAKER_03 (52:14):
Yeah, there's a few that can't, but um, I never knew
that recusant sellers was takenfrom recusant Catholics dealing
with this time period.
So we wanted to make sure weabsolutely featured recusant
sellers during this show.
But where does the name recusentCatholic come from?

SPEAKER_00 (52:29):
From the Latin word recusare, which means to refuse.
So they refuse the act ofuniformity, and I'll lay that
out, what that is.
So Elizabeth comes to thethrone.
Actually, this very day in 1558,a messenger came to uh Hatfield
House, where Elizabeth was inresidence, and it told her that

(52:50):
that Mary was dead.
And then she says, Um, you know,the the Lord has done it is
marvelous in our sight.
She quotes that from the Psalms.
And then she goes on to uh thecoronation.
The country is still Catholic,the episcope is still there.
Cardinal Poole dies, you know,shortly thereafter, who would
have been a significant obstaclefor her reimposition of
Protestantism.

(53:11):
But she she makes it quickquickly known what the way
things are gonna go with atChristmas, um, the Christmas
Mass, she sends an instructionto the Bishop of uh London that
he is not to elevate the host.
So he tears it up and continuesdoing what he's gonna do.
So when Elizabeth sees that,then she walks out of the chapel

(53:32):
royale during the Gloria andChelsea's and retires uh to her
own chapel where she says thelitanies, the Protestant
litanies, among which are uhLibranos uh uh papatu and the
Christi, Libra uh free us fromthe papacy, the antichrist.
Wow, and so that uh is it waspretty much known which way it

(53:53):
was gonna go, but it was still aan impossible thing to some
observers because it has to gothrough the lords.
Now um I could go through abouta lot of Catholic Lords,
actually.
They you know the patriotismbutton, yeah, got to support the
monarch.
So people kind of fall in line.
So one of the first things theydo in 1559 at the first

(54:13):
parliament is there, there's therenewal of the act of supremacy
barely passes through, but itdoes.
So it renews the act of royalsupremacy.
With one change though,Elizabeth does one thing.
Instead of being the supremehead in her own person of the
church, she calls herself thesupreme governor of the church
of England.
Uh, it re they they reimpose theBook of Common Prayer of 1551,

(54:37):
you know, uphold it, and thenthey establish fines and
penalties for not attending theuh the services.
This parliament also puts in thedeath penalty for Catholic
priests uh uh operating you knowin the country who refused to
say the Protestant service longbefore the Spanish Armada,
because some historians used tosay, well, that was just a

(54:58):
reaction to Regnans and Axelseysand the Spanish Armada.
No, right off the bat.
And now with the testament tothe strength of Mary's church,
what what Cardinal Poole andGardner and Tunstall and Bonner
and all these other and manyother clergy had done in
restoring the Catholic faith,when Elizabeth reimposes
Protestantism, only one bishopgoes along with it.

(55:20):
The entire hierarchy refuses toaccept Protestantism, you know,
whereas it's the exact oppositeof 1535, where St.
John Fisher is the only bishopthat will not go along with
Henry, everyone else goes alongwith it.
Every bishop stays loyal to thetrue faith.

SPEAKER_03 (55:38):
So what's really interesting about all of this is
that you see how important it isto capture someone's mind from
when they're young.
Yes, because it's the people whoare teaching Elizabeth when
she's a child, and Elizabeth islike wicked smart, she's smarter
than her brother Edward, andshe's yes, and but it's the
people around her who are teaare teaching her these things

(55:59):
and putting these ideas in herhead.

SPEAKER_00 (56:01):
Also, Henry VIII's last wife, Catherine Parr.
And so just a quick thing withHenry VIII's wives, obviously,
Catherine of Aragon dies umafter Henry's mistreatment, but
but ostensibly of naturalcauses.
There's some people in the 16thcentury who think she was
poisoned.
Some of the charges against AnneBoleyn, actually, are that she
poisoned the late uh PrincessDowager, i.e., Catherine, um,

(56:24):
and which is actually notimpossible, but uh Henry
probably wouldn't have donethat.
But Anne is then, you know,executed on trumped-up charges
uh that she absolutely wasn'tguilty of.
And she's beheaded.
Jane Seymour dies uh fromcomplications after giving birth
to Edward.
She gets an infection and theydon't have the means to treat
that then.
So she dies a few weeks afterhe's born.

(56:46):
Um then there's there's uh Anneof Cleves, that ends up being a
big disaster.
Henry doesn't like her, he justtakes a dislike to her so strong
that he never even consummatesthe marriage.
So it's uh annulled on thegrounds of non-consummation.
Then he's married to CatherineHoward, roughly at the same
time.
But as it turns out, she's awoman with a past, and she
really did commit all kinds ofadultery.

(57:08):
There's a man named ThomasCulpepper that she was keeping
up with, um, even while she wasmarried to Henry.
So she's executed for treasonbecause a king can have as many
mistresses as he'd like, but aqueen, well, that's through whom
the issue comes, right?
Right.
If you can't be sure of theissue, you could have some war,
so it's treason for a queen tocommit adultery.
King, well, yeah, and Henry hadquite a few mistresses.

(57:29):
So um then you get to CatherineParr, she survives, she survives
Henry.
She is very much of Protestantopinion, and so when she's
Elizabeth chooses to stay withher after Henry's death, and you
know, and and of course, therethere's a definitely link with
with uh the Protestantismbetween the two.

SPEAKER_01 (57:49):
So anyway, so when Elizabeth and of course she's a
Boleyn, right?
I mean, I and I think that itbears, you know, you know, you
would imagine like Mary is islike Mary is loyal to her
mother, you know, you would youwould see that Elizabeth would
be loyal to the memory of hermother.
Yes, no, or she actually isn't.

SPEAKER_00 (58:06):
Believe it or not, it's one of those because
Elizabeth the the the the traumaof her youth growing up knowing
that her mother was executedright by the king, there is a
there's a pressure to neverincur the king's displeasure, so
to never mention her mother.
Uh Elizabeth shows no uh mentionin private notes, letters, any

(58:31):
extract that's ever been writtenabout recollection about her
mother, and and and anyindication that her mother's on
her mind very much.
Now, when during Wyatt'srebellion, Elizabeth was
implicated.
Mary actually tries very hard toplay this kind of psychological
pressure by putting her in roomsthat Anne Boleyn was in before
she was executed to get her toconfess because they need her to

(58:54):
confess to complicity in Wyatt'srebellion.
Otherwise, there's no grounds inwhich they to kill her, and
without any issue, uh she can'tkill the heir to the throne.
Yeah, and and Mary and Elizabethactually they do get very close
during um during the when JaneSeymour becomes queen and uh
gives Henry his son.

(59:14):
They are very close at thattime, and and Mary starts to
take a liking to Elizabeth, andthey they feel like both having
been you know in it together, uhsuffering through their father,
and so and they both are veryclose for a long time.
But after Henry's death, youknow, Mary's an older woman,
she's she's in her late 20s,she's now able to be free.

SPEAKER_03 (59:35):
Yeah, these old broads in their late 20s,
unbelievable.
Then they start to grow apart,yeah.
Right?

SPEAKER_00 (59:40):
Yeah, then they start to grow apart, and you
know, Catherine Parr wroteProtestant opinions.
Well, she she departs fromCatherine Parr's household
because of a certain incidentthat that uh almost ruined
Elizabeth's reputation.
So Catherine Parr had marriedher old flame Thomas Seymour,
who's the younger brother of theDuke of Somerset, who's the Lord
Protector.
For Edward in the RegencyCouncil.

(01:00:02):
And Seymour, you know,certainly, you know, it seemed
to have liked Catherine Parr atone point, but he's got his
designs fixed on Elizabeth.
And um, you remember him in theTom Holland episode recently.
He called him Mr.
Tickle.
Yeah.
He was a weird guy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:18):
Because she was young, she was like 14.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:20):
He was speaking in her own while she was there.
He works the magic and she'ssmitten by it and she enjoys the
attention.
So, but but she's alsodisciplined enough to keep from
certain things.
And so, and that's how she'sable to keep her head through
that situation and keep herselfintact.
So when she's interrogated aboutthe whole thing, she's able to
truly say, No, I never had youknow any my I didn't know this,

(01:00:43):
and I I saw he had certainadvances, and I said, This must
wait for the council and and andwhatnot.
And so she was able to exculpateherself very well from it, and
because she was self-disciplinedand was able to keep her head in
a very dangerous situation, shewas able to keep her reputation
largely intact.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:00):
Is this true that because she was the daughter of
adultery, she couldn't be aqueen as a Catholic?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:06):
Um that's not necessarily the case.
Uh, the strict laws ofprimogeniture, if your kingdom
is strictly follows those, abastard should not reign.
And but in England, there well,actually, in general law, Norman
law and other things, you canlegitimate a bastard and they
can legitimately hold thethrone, because parliament also
makes the law.

(01:01:26):
And like William uh Julien deBotha, he is William the
Conqueror, he was a bastard whenhe comes to rule in England, and
he his rel his rule isacknowledged.
Um, Pope acknowledges him asking in England and whatnot.
So there's no like directbarrier to that if the laws of
the realm allow it, versus ifthey don't.

(01:01:47):
So Mary is a bastard when shereigns, because I had Henry the
eighth's will up earlier.
Henry never repudiated thebastardy for either Mary or
Elizabeth.
So she comes to the real thethrone because she's a tutor and
she has wide popular support.
She is Henry VIII's daughter,and so the now she does get her
bastardy undone.

(01:02:07):
Parliament officially uhdeclares the marriage between
Henry and Catherine was valid,and she was a legitimate child,
and actually that still standsin English law, it was never
undone.
And Elizabeth, by contrast, doesnot try to undo the bastardy.
Why?
Well, because Mary wascompletely, you know, unsuspect

(01:02:28):
in any way.
Um, you know, Elizabeth canbecome queen only because Mary
did it first, and Mary did itdamn well, right?
She, you know, she she has tocome into a situation that is,
you know, where men rule thisparticular style of government.
Uh, it is a king, that's why thethe Spanish marriage runs into

(01:02:49):
problems with the Englishpopulace, even though, like I
was saying earlier, it makesabsolute political sense.
But one, you have the naturalEnglish xenophobia, but that is
comes into play because it's aqueen.
By natural order, the the man isthe lord of the wife, and now
we're gonna have a king whoshould be the lord of the wife,

(01:03:10):
but right, but she's our queen,he's not our king.
But we're gonna have a Spaniardas king.
There's a real and true sense inwhich Philip is king, by the
way.
The Privy Council does report tohim, but he you know, he doesn't
have direct authority in Englandas king, he's a king consort.
It's like the first um path forthat.
It's actually the model thatVictoria uses with Albert, by

(01:03:31):
the way.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:32):
Uh for a king's it's it's it's uh what what a weird
situation to be in, to bemarried to a queen when you're
supposed to be the head of thehousehold.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:43):
Essentially, you're a royal stud.
And Philip does not like this atall.
So Philip uh set up a monumentto all of his wives uh in in
1596, and absent from thosewives was Mary I.
She's not no monumentcommemorating her, just gives
you indication how much he hereally disliked his time.

(01:04:03):
He played his part to theabsolute perfection.
Mary was smitten by him, he wasless so, and um, and of course,
it's one of those queer, weirdmarriages where Charles V, his
father, uh Philip's father, isMary's cousin, right?
Catherine, you know, Veragon'suh nephew.
So it's so close.

(01:04:24):
But so Elizabeth, she comes tothe throne, Mary showed it could
be done.
Mary was the trailblazer, shegot the economy on a sure
footing, and Elizabeth then isable to take credit for every
last thing that Mary did itultimately.
And so she comes in.
So first you have the Oath ofSupremacy 1559, and I'll read
this out so you get the sense ofwhat's what's going on.

(01:04:47):
So I name do utterly testify anddeclare in my conscience that
the Queen's Highness is the onlysupreme governor of this realm,
and of all other of herhighness's dominions and
countries, as well as in allspiritual or ecclesiastical
things or causes, as temporal,in that no foreign prince,
person, prelate, state, orpotentate hath or ought to have

(01:05:09):
any jurisdiction, power,superiority, preeminence, or
authority ecclesiastical orspiritual within this realm.
And therefore I do utterlyrenounce and forsake all foreign
jurisdictions and powers, PBC,superiorities and authorities,
and do promise that fromhenceforth I shall bear faith
and true allegiance to theQueen's Highness, her heirs and

(01:05:32):
lawful successors, and to mypower shall assist and defend
all jurisdictions, preeminences,privileges, and authorities
granted or belonging to theQueen's Highness, her heirs or
successors, or united or annexedto the imperial crown of the
realm.
So help me, God, and by thecontents of this book, you know,
the Bible, the English Biblethat you're supposed to be
swearing on, right?

(01:05:54):
So anyone who would not swearthis act, anyone who would not
attend the Anglican service wascalled a recusant, like I said
from recusare, which is torefuse.
Um, and then the the uh there isa fine of five pounds, it was
placed.
Well, the Religion Act of 1580increased that to 20 pounds for
not attending the Anglicanservice.

(01:06:15):
If you are an average laborer inEngland, you could hope to
obtain between three and sevenpounds a year for your wow, so
they really enforce this uponthe everyday English.
Yes, and then because ofresistance, and again the

(01:06:36):
Jesuits coming in the country,we'll get to that.
Um, in 1584, again, four yearsbefore the Spanish Armada, the
Act Jesuits, etc., is passedthrough Parliament.
So it commands all RomanCatholic priests to leave the
country in 40 days, or theywould be punished for high
treason, unless within the 40days they swore an oath to obey
the queen.
Those who harbored them,priests, and all those who knew

(01:06:58):
of their presence and failed toinform the authorities would be
fined and imprisoned.
And you would have pay for yourimprisonment, by the way.
Anyone else who became a Jesuitoverseas had to return to
England within six months, andwithin two days of arriving,
swear to submit to the queen andalso take the oath required by
the act of supremacy, the oath Ijust read out to you.

(01:07:18):
Failure to do so was hightreason.
Any person who did take the oathwas forbidden from coming within
ten miles of the queen for tenyears unless they had a personal
written permission.
And again, failure to observethis uh requirement was treason.
So that now becomes uh, youknow, that's the law of the
land.
So some people get around this.
So, like if Elizabeth liked youpersonally, so Thomas Tallis and

(01:07:42):
William Byrd, uh famouscomposers, the greatest,
probably with the exception ofHenry Purcell, the greatest
natural-born English composers,right?
So, you know, there was WilliamByrd, we absolutely know was
Catholic because Elizabeth paidhis recusancy fine.
She liked him personally, so hewas able to get around it.

(01:08:02):
So Byrd composed a whole bunchof things.
He composed motets.
The motets were really masssettings, and he even published
or gave wrote out a secret codefor Catholics to use so they
could use those mass settings umand have like the indication of
how this is meant to be used,like the mass of three voices,
mass of four voices, mass offive voices, and bird originally

(01:08:22):
those were published asindividual motets, and you know,
he gets a key for Catholics touse to use that music and put it
all back together.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:31):
So so does is there um an underground Catholicism
that endures yes throughout thiswhole period?

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:42):
Absolutely.
Um, in the beginning, so so Maryhad used the church to reduce
Protestant revolutionaries.
Elizabeth takes note of how evenCatholics kind of were kind of
tired of it and the bishopsdidn't even want to enforce it
anymore.
I mean, it was working, but shewanted something that was a

(01:09:03):
little more uh on color, so shewent for you know, you can, I
don't have a window into men'ssouls, you can do what you want
in private as long as youconform to the Anglican service
in public.
So there are Catholics who won'tdo this, there are bishops and
priests working in secret,especially in the northern part
of the country.
Uh, Stratford upon upon Avon,where Shakespeare is from, the

(01:09:25):
town council where his fatherwas a counselor.
Um, they get the notice fromElizabeth, they are to destroy
all images.
And so they they're they're notgoing to do it.
Tunor monarchs don't live verylong.
Who knows when there's going tobe a change in government?
So they put a layer of whitewashover the walls in in Stratford

(01:09:46):
upon Avon.
And so it was covered, and itwas discovered by accident.
Somebody was cleaning somethingand scraped and noticed there
was like some very intricatethings underneath the whitewash.
And so they they eventuallyscraped it away and have
revealed this whole uh edificeof medieval English piety in the
in the town council, there,right?
And so people hide the thevarious elements of the old

(01:10:07):
religion because they figuretutors don't live long, she'll
die.
The next heir is Mary Queen ofScots, and that that's a subject
I don't think we want to broachtonight because of too many
things.
Um, and then it'll be Catholicagain, so we don't have to worry
about it.
So they then no nobody knows in1559, 1560, 1562 that Elizabeth
is gonna live for 45 years,right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:27):
And and in this is, and I think you know where I
come into it, or where myinterests come into it, of
course, are with um Guy Fox andum you know the the the power
the the the plot out our plot wewere actually gonna do this show
November 5th and do the and youknow remember remember the 5th
of November, but we we hadsomething else planned that
night.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:47):
So we I have something unorthodox to say
about that.

unknown (01:10:51):
Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:51):
But what were you saying, Kate?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:53):
No, no, no, go ahead.
I just I I don't know what I Idon't know if it's gonna be
maybe I'll agree with that.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:59):
Well, you know, essentially that Guy Fox is more
or less the sheep dip past.
Well, yeah.
I mean he's he's the he's theyeah there's the debate, there's
a thing that almost nobodybelieves, which is the official
government story for thegunpowder plot, right?
Which is that this thing wasgoing on, and uh Lord Monteagle
wrote the last minute, and thenthen uh James interpreted it by
Divine Light.

(01:11:19):
Nobody believes that anymore.
So there's the two views.
One is that the Englishgovernment becomes aware of this
plot that originates withCatholics to blow up parliament
and then intercepts it and thenlets it widen to get, you know,
get as many people who would actthis way, capture them, you
know, the intel spy servicebeing what it is.
The other view, and uh that thestate is created it, that that

(01:11:44):
Robert Cecil, the son of WilliamCecil, who very much makes
Elizabeth's policy happen, he'sa brilliant actor.
Uh, I haven't talked about himyet at all, probably should.
But Robert Cecil um is great forcreating learns from Walsingham
all the tools of statecraft andspy craft, and he creates plots
and and squashes them.
Shakespeare even has a referenceto that.

(01:12:05):
Yeah, I know that's yeah, yeah.
And so the theory agree withyou.
Yeah, yes.
This theory that Father FrancisEdward uh is a Jesuit propounds
from the state archives.
I mean, you go through his book,his book's a little hard to read
because it's bouncing around atdifferent things, but it when
you track down what is thesource, it's always an archival
source, it's always acontemporary source, so it's not

(01:12:25):
mere conspiracy theorypostulated hundreds of years
later.
And this is also what peoplethought at the time, actually,
in in Rome and in other places,that the English state had
created a conspiracy, it wasjust too good, and it lines up
with all the interest of theEnglish state at that time,
namely James comes in after aunion, the union, right.

(01:12:45):
James makes peace with Franceand with Spain.
Now gunpowder is uh no longer aneeded commodity, the gunpowder
futures drop, and people likeCecil lose out tons of money on
the gunpowder trade.
Uh, on top of that, Englishmencan now legally join the English
regiment in Flanders with anEnglish regiment on the Spanish
military.

(01:13:06):
So there is now a core ofEnglishmen that is now widening
because you may join it to fightagainst the Protestant Dutch.
And Cecil's looking at this withhorror.
There was already the Englishregiment was already a concern
under Elizabeth, but now it's abigger concern because you can
legally join it now that uhJames has made peace with Spain,

(01:13:27):
and because they're fighting inthe 80 Years' War against the
Dutch, the Protestant Dutch,right?
And so Catholics joining thistheir fellow English Catholics
in the Spanish army.
You've got a trained group ofCatholic Englishmen, trained
hardened soldiers with foreignbacking, possibly that could
overturn the king.
And again, I mentioned earlier asphere the second has a better

(01:13:47):
claim to the throne than uh eventhe tutors do.
Same thing's true of the Spanishinfanta at that time.
So Catholics have theiralternative candidate, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:56):
And once uh how many years, how many years like what
year what year is the gunpowderplot?
1605.
Five, five, yeah, yeah.
Oh, so so it's a good 70 yearsafter Henry VIII.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:09):
Remember, Elizabeth's reign is so long,
right?
Yeah, that that you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:14):
So 1558 to 1603, Elizabeth's reign.
So she reigns a very long time,you know, much longer than than
anyone thought she would.
The final plot of her reign isthe uh the Essex plot, right?
And uh so the the Earl of Essex,you know, the we and we were
talking earlier about golden agestuff.

(01:14:36):
Um, the Elizabethan period is agolden age from about 1560 or so
to about 1585.
If you are in a certain class, acertain middle class of
aristocracy, uh, or even thehigher classes, um, or you're in
the position to benefit verywidely from increased trade and
other, or you are like FrancisDrake, you're a pirate that now

(01:14:58):
has a legalized letter of markto go after Spanish shipping.
You uh you make bank.
You this is a golden age foryou.
It's a golden age if you're inthe right place.
Shakespeare, obviously, um, youknow, theater, culture, all
these things, you know, thatthis is Shakespeare requisite.
Um, it's unknown.
There's a there's a goodevidence for Shakespeare having

(01:15:19):
been Catholic.
There is nothing that I've everseen in the digitally of it,
because I've never been in thearchives in England, like I have
the Vatican or the BibliothèqueNational in Paris.
So I can't say from physicallybeing there, but the digital
archives for the British Libraryand the Bodleian, Oxford, I've
never seen a reference toShakespeare or anyone purporting

(01:15:40):
to be Will Shakespeare paying arecidency fine.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:42):
And then somebody's asking if um his father did his
father did.
Bell Lock in his characters ofthe Reformation suggests that
Elizabeth suffered from somehorrible affliction that
rendered her unable to havechildren, but he doesn't specify
does Ryan or Kale know what thatis, what it was.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:59):
I don't think that's true.
Um, because well, one, ofcourse, uh you know, she wasn't
married.
Now, whether she actually didhave sexual dalliance with
someone, it's possible, butunknown.
I would say it's an improbablebecause I have two things to ask
you on that, Ryan.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:15):
I mean, for me, one of the enduring, you know, if
you know you can look atElizabeth's refusal to take a
husband and to produce an heirum a couple of different ways,
right?
On the one hand, man, you know,if you're English, like it would
have been so great, right, ifElizabeth had had an heir, but
you could also look at that as areally canny move on her part.

(01:16:39):
That what that does in essenceis that it it provides that
extension of her reign.
You know, she winds up livingfor a really long time.
That gives her an ample amountof time to erect the police
state necessary, and really oneof the probably the world's
first true police states inplace in order to um solidify,

(01:17:03):
you know, uh the her reformationbecause she had, you know, there
are manies, but she had one ofthem.
Um, but I do I you know, I I dowonder, you know, it's a little
bit of a mystery to me why sherefused, you know.
Again, it's easy for us to kindof look back and say, oh, well,
it was actually a good idea forher not to do this, but right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:25):
You think she was terrified to get pregnant after
seeing two of uh the queens dieafter childbirth?

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:31):
No, I don't think so.
Uh it was more of a matter ofstatecraft.
One, yeah, her heart was toRobert Dudley, and they her
father, William Dudley, wasexecuted um uh under Mary, and
they were both in the tower aspart of Wyatt's Rebellion, you
know, suspected, both with athreat of death hanging over
them.
They became very, very close andremained very close.

(01:17:54):
And so when she became queen,she made Robert Dudley the groom
of the school, the stool, whichput him in in con he could
physically touch the queen.
Master of the horse, right?
Right, they were very close.
And William Cecil despaired ofthis because Dudley was a rake
and an adventurer, but he hadthe masculine charms, and
Elizabeth was definitely smittenby him.
Yeah, and but Elizabeth also,because she had learned she was

(01:18:18):
very politically savvy and shewas definitely self-governed and
disciplined, just like Mary was,yeah, in a way that Mary, Queen
of Scots, was not, and we'll getto her in a second because this
also solidifies Elizabeth'sopinion on this.
So she dangles out marriage, andbut the problem like marriage uh
to be politically expedientmeans marriage with a Catholic
power, and she doesn't reallywant to do that.

(01:18:38):
And one Philip woos her rightaway, oh, obviously you're not
sad about my sister becauseyou're you already want to marry
me right away.
Uh, in and so for Philip, it'sexpediency to keep the Hobbsburg
Tudor alliance because that'sgoing to be useful for him
against France, uh, which isEngland's traditional enemy.
You know, it would be inElizabeth's interest, but she
doesn't want it.
Then there's um, you know, youknow, so many different you

(01:19:00):
know, figures, crown heads, andyou're just like, no, no.
Um, and then you know, there'sthere's Dudley, and then she
absolutely is smitten and inlove with Dudley.
And a lot of people this dividesthe privy council.
This is contentious, there'srumors.
Uh the Virgin Queen, but not sovirgin in the court, you know.
Uh, the contemporary witnessvery much attests to that.

(01:19:22):
So, what happens is all of asudden, now Dudley is married,
he hates his wife.
There is a you know, thoughtthat that he's waiting for
something to happen to her.
And of course, um, thingshappen, right?
He dies, things happen, fallsdown the stairs and has a broken
neck.
I mean, so then the suspicionautomatically falls on Dudley.

(01:19:43):
My opinion, I can't vindicatethis as true.
The the documentation doesn'texist to vindicate this as true.
My opinion is that Cecilarranged in some way for
Dudley's wife to be killed.
That way, uh, you know, thesuspicion would fall on Dudley
and that would put an end toElizabeth's Dalliance with

(01:20:04):
Robert Dudley, and then thebusiness of statecraft could go
on.
Because I mean, he's the he hasthe couy bono.
Cecil benefits, yeah, and thestate English state ultimately
benefits, and so it's it'slogical that if there was a
conspiracy to murder Dudley'swife, it was Cecil that did it.
So, what happens with her andDudley after his wife dies?
So he's he has to depart fromcourt.
There's a even though thecoroner's jury rules it an

(01:20:26):
accident, but the gossip isgoing like a hundred miles a
second.
So he is yeah, gossip go brrr.
And so Dudley has to depart fromcourt.
He does so for about two, threeyears.
You know, Elizabeth and he dosee each other.
It's not until Elizabeth comesdown with smallpox and nearly
dies in 1661 that she's able to,when she recovers, she tells

(01:20:52):
tells Cecil that that she needsto make arrangements to appoint
a Lord High Protector in caseshe should die, since she has no
issue.
And Cecil absolutely drawseverything up.
Then Elizabeth does her littlecoup where she turns around and
she names Robert Dudley the LordHigh Protector if she should
die.
So Dudley's back in court, youknow, but if it's not the same,
it can't be the same.

(01:21:13):
They don't have the sameproximity, and and they drift,
and eventually Dudley leavescourt and gets married to
someone else.
And so it uh that's kind ofwhere it goes.
There is another occasion whereElizabeth um uh entertains this
uh marriage proposal from the uhthe Duke of Anjou, and they've
been briefly betrothed when shewas much younger, but now you

(01:21:35):
know he's an adventurer, he uhis too young in the French royal
family to ever have any hopes ofgaining the throne.
Of course, he he couldn'tforesee how the uh French wars
of religion would go thateventually Henri III would die
with no error.
So uh, but anyway, he he woosElizabeth very strongly, and and
Elizabeth needs uh you know aidin fighting the war in the

(01:22:01):
Netherlands against the Spanishbecause Elizabeth belongs to the
same king's club that Philipdoes.
She can't directly uh aid therebels in the in the Holland
against the Spanish, but she cando so indirectly and discreetly,
so it's all you got plausibledeniability, as it were, and so
she needs more support for this,and so that's why she entertains
the Duke of Anjou, and she'sactually smitten by him.

(01:22:22):
But again, she always comes backto what happened to Mary Queen
of Scots.
Mary Queen of Scots, brilliantwoman, but she's not as
self-governed as either Mary orElizabeth were, and so she she
um is she's brought to Franceduring when Henry VIII uh does
the rough wooing as it's called.

(01:22:42):
You know, he wants to putScotland firmly in his control,
and so get want to obtain theheir to the throne and marry her
off to some some noble inEngland.
Well, that doesn't work out.
She gets to France, she'smarried to the Dauphin Francois
II, he dies, and now she's theQueen Dowager of France.
So she returns to Scotland andthen takes up role in Scotland.

(01:23:03):
She's very determined, she'svery much in control, and but
she's got her eyes set atanother price because she knows
she has a better claim to thethrone than Elizabeth, coming
from Mary Tudor, Henry's sister.
And no, no, no, not Mary Tudor,um, Margaret Tudor, sorry.
And so she has this better claimto the throne again than the
Tudors do, and then Elizabethdoes, because Elizabeth becomes

(01:23:26):
descending for her bastardy andeverything, has been undone.
Here's a legitimate error comingfrom Henry and Henry the
Seventh.
It's like, and then so what shedoes is she marries Lord
Darnley, who also is descendedfrom Henry the Seventh, and now
their son is going to have avery strong claim to the throne.
All seems to be going swimminglyfor Mary, except Darnley turns
out to be the worst possibledodgy character you can imagine.

(01:23:49):
He's a drunk, he's a psychopath,he is um horrible.
Um, and I I would recommendactually going to uh you know
the rest is history for thewhole bit on Mary Queen of Scots
that they do because they theycover in so much detail.
I'm not going to even broach ithere.
She's accused of the murder ofher husband.
I I actually legitimately thinkthat like uh Jean Guy and uh Tom

(01:24:12):
Holland are correct that she hadnothing to do with that.
But either way, then uh there'sa weird sequence of events.
There's revolt against her, theEarl of Bothwell, who had been
one of her supporters, JohnHepburn, he abducts her to her
castle, rapes her, and thenthey're married in like you
know, a month later.
It's like, what the hell's goingon?

(01:24:33):
And and then it goes from bad toworse for Mary, and then more
war against her, and she getsimprisoned.
So, and her son's taken awayfrom her.
And so Elizabeth sees all thesethings going on.
Now, some of these machinationsCecil is causing, but just the
same, Elizabeth's like it justconfirms her earlier decision
not to marry.
So Elizabeth was actually andMary uh Tudor both were better

(01:24:56):
actors than Mary Queen of Scots.
They they understood what wasnecessary in their kingdom.
So, because Mary Queen of Scotshas a tolerance policy with
Protestantism in Scotland.
She she tries to play a biggergame than she's capable of
managing, and and both Mary theTudor and Elizabeth are far
better self-governed.
And the result being, you know,you know, like Mary's policy

(01:25:17):
would have worked except for thesuccession, the children that
didn't come.
And then Elizabeth, she's ableto hold on long enough to to you
know get her protest her policyso that she comes to the throne
where England is 80 to 90percent Catholic, and at her
death, it's about 80 percentProtestant.
And repression was thesuccessful policy.

(01:25:38):
Tolerance only bred morerebellion in Scotland and and
led to the you knowestablishment of the Protestant
you know minority becoming theProtestant elite and majority
under under Mary Queen of Scots.
And she wasn't a ferventCatholic until she comes to
England, because then she knowsthat's a good political tool for
Catholics disaffected byElizabeth.

(01:26:00):
So her showing up on Englishsoil after she escaped Scotland
brings about immediate rebellionin England with a northern
rising, and then there's so manydifferent plots that happen
afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:12):
When is it that um like that Catholicism is legal,
legalized in England?
Like, how long is this period?
How long is it like hundreds ofyears later, or is it like yeah?

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:26):
Um, so what happens in historically, I mean you have
the the great the last throws ofthe counterrephrase.
You have uh Edmund Campion'sgreat mission, and he comes, and
a lot of Englishmen, especiallyin the middle gentry area, you
know, they they were openly kindof conforming and secretly
having their masses, and EdmundCampion comes, you can't do

(01:26:47):
this, you can't have anyassociation with the Anglican
sacrament.
Pope Paul IV has put out a bull.
Um, the Anglican sacrament isnot Catholic, you can't take it,
you can't have anything to dowith this Communicatio and
Socrates.
So people listen and it hardensand stiffens the Catholic
underground resistance.
Um, he's martyred.
Robert Persons, who's who's withhim, he ends up escaping the

(01:27:08):
country and carrying out hispolitical activism afterwards.
But Catholics are stillstrongly, you know, uh about
they get even um funding, youknow, from abroad to what year
are we talking about?

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:20):
When when does Edward what when is Edward
Campion?

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:24):
Edmund 1560s.
Edmund 15s.
Um he has this great work thathe leaves in the pew, the ten
reasons, the decambration.
Um he leaves them in the pews ofOxford University in Latin.
Protestants reject the parts ofscripture that don't support
their doctrine.
The number two, Protestantsdistort the parts of scripture

(01:27:46):
to support their doctrine.
Protestants have a weak notionof the church.
Point number four, Protestantsshould accept Catholic teaching
on the Mass, communion of theSaints and the authority of the
Pope.
The fifth point, he argues, thefathers of the church don't
support Protestant views of thechurch.
The Eucharist, the communion ofthe saints, the authority of the
Pope, etc., they supportCatholic views.
Number six, Protestants ignorethe authority of the fathers of

(01:28:07):
the church, even the apostolicfathers, since they can't find
the support for their doctrinein their lives and works.
Number seven, um, he basicallysays to be deep in history is to
cease to be Protestant.
I mean, the second point of theDeccan Rations is that church
history does not supportProtestant doctrine or the on
the sacraments or thepriesthood.

(01:28:28):
Um, you know, bad Protestantmodel motto like good works are
immortal sins.
You know, he argues all theworst things from Luther and
others, you know, nine weaknessof Protestant arguments, um,
like you know, it being againstclerical celibacy because
marriage is good, right?
He just shows the sophisms inthere.
And his tenth, his finalargument, Catholicism is the

(01:28:49):
true Christian religion, thechurch founded by Jesus Christ
on St.
Peter and the Apostles.
And for 1500 years, everyoneagreed this is true until Henry.
So what it what are you gonnawhich side are you gonna
support?
You know, and this is also thetenor of his preaching to people
who had been on the fence.
So, you know, he is eventuallyinteresting.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:08):
My my priest on Sunday read in his homily, just
read I forgot whose whosewriting it was, but it was about
the English Reformation, and hekind of just reads this this
whole thing about how you knowum how how it was just this

(01:29:29):
whole thing about the EnglishReformation.
It was really interestingbecause I was watching, I'm
like, oh we're talking aboutthis on Tuesdays.
This is so interesting, and thenTom Holland.
Tom Holland puts out his thing.
I'm like, what is going on?
Why why is everybody talkingabout the English Reformation
right now?

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:44):
I mean, talk about it.
So um the um Edmund can't be inhis horse martyred, but this
really you know it brings a lotof people off fence sitting into
being fervent Catholics, and soother Jesuit missionars come.
You know, Englishmen leave uhEngland and become Jesuits, or
they leave and become ordainedabroad.

(01:30:06):
And the uh once you get to thethen of course Mary Queen of
Scots eventually is executedbecause the spy service is able
to implicate her in severalplots.
And it's one of those things.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:18):
Tom was at Mass Sunday.
He's it was Cardinal Arthur.
Uh but yeah, he read it read oneof his sermons just talking
about these.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:26):
You mean Cardinal Allen?
Oh, maybe, I don't know.
I don't, I don't, I don't know.
Well, be that as it may.
Um, Mary Queen of Scots isimplicated in the casket
letters, and it's an insolubleproblem historically, whether
she was actually a part of it ornot.
Um, it may have been.
And Elizabeth still won'tconsent to her execution.
So when she falls asleep, Cecilcomes and forges her name and

(01:30:47):
sends out the execution order.
And so when Elizabeth wakes up,Mary Queen of Scots is already
executed because he knew shewould delay and try not to
commit herself to doing it.
So as a more or less as aresponse, uh, Pius V is induced
to issue regnans and excelsis,and it's a papal bull, which of
course declares Elizabethdeposed and as a heretic, and

(01:31:08):
then any you know, her subjectreleases her subjects from
obedience again, you know, toher.
And Elizabeth responds withheavier persecution uh of
Catholics in the state.
And it's so bad that futurepopes, Pope Paul V is asked
whether he should proceedagainst uh King James.
And Pope Paul V says, I preferto follow the example of Clement
VIII rather than that of Pius V.

(01:31:29):
And Pius V himself, uh, once hewas it was represented to him
how how uh how much Catholicssuffered as a result of the
bull, he himself was sorry thathe issued it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:39):
You know, well that's I actually I actually
think that this I think thisaffected the way that the church
handled Hitler.
I was just about to say that,yeah.
Like that I really do, I dothink it, I think that's
certainly and certainly theSoviet Union and and look, and
certainly you know, uh I have mymy bone to pick, of course, but
I think this is well part of thethinking with China as well.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:01):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Like, so the idea that you knowthe the Pope Pius XII should
have come down heavy and saidall these things, and it's like
if he would have done that, itwould have just led to the
person.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:14):
You know, it's uh it's a hard thing, and and he he
struggled with that.
Pius XII struggled with that, sohe tried his best to do things
secretly and diplomatically, youknow, with the cover of good
behavior, but privately to getyou know people into Russia that
that he could to do pastoralmissions there.
Many of them were apprehendedand rounded up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:35):
So, yeah, it's it's it's a tricky spot for a pope to
be in when you know if you comeout strongly on a position, it's
just going to lead to the deathof your of your children.
Like, how do you how do you dothat?
You know, uh it's a it's notsuch a simple uh you know, the
pope should be a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 (01:32:56):
Smash it.
There there is a politickingthat's involved, and there is
the the the interest of thefaith in that country.
So the um and that leads to alot of different things.
So what happens ultimately isyou get James, obviously,
there's a gunpowder plot in itslegacy, irrespective of whether
it was a state-created plot thatdrove drew people in, and Guy
Fox is Apache, thinking thathe's he's recruiting for the

(01:33:19):
English regiment, or if he was acommitted plotter looking to
blow up parliament, irrespectiveof whichever way that goes.
The the aftermath.
Uh, Catholicism, this is what itgets you.
It's trees it, it's destruction,it fuels the anti-cat, it
cements the English, theanti-Catholic character of uh
English destiny, really.
And and that goes on.

(01:33:40):
And so you have Catholics inEngland who are doing their best
under the situation.
The Stuarts give a littleopening, especially under
Charles I, because Charles I ismarried to French princess
Henriette Marie.
And she, you know, has likethere's there's treaty
obligations.
She has she's able to maintainan embassy chapel, she's able to

(01:34:00):
have priests and not not just inthe chapel, but even in in the
royal bedchamber, even you know,at her meals.
And of course, monarchs havevery little privacy.
Um, you actually can sit thereand watch the monarch eat.
It's like a thing, which I'vestill like grappled to like I
know this has happened.
I've read the primary sourcedocuments on this is happening
in the archives of variousplaces.

(01:34:22):
I can't grapple my head aroundwhy any anyone allows, okay,
we're gonna let all these peoplegawk at us as we eat.
But it was the standard thingfor monarchy that uh as a royal
personage, almost everything youdo except sex, pretty much, is
public.
And even the aftermath of thatis public whether the queen's
pregnant or not, you know.

(01:34:43):
There's very few truly privateplaces, even your privy.
You got the groom of the stoolto help you, right?
Um, and he doesn't actually wipeyour rear end, like like some
people think.
But the groom of the stool doesyou know maintain all the things
necessary for the king to attendto his chamber pot.
So uh there's very few thingsthat monarchs do that are

(01:35:04):
private.
So Henriette Marie gets allthese different things, she has
oratorian chaplains and um fromthe order of St.
Philip Neary and Franciscanchaplains and whatnot.
Um, because that's like the onething English say, no Jesuits.
You can have everything else, noJesuits.
Aristocracy are coming withHenriette Marie to mass, and
they're seeing this, wow, thisis amazing.
And people start converting.

(01:35:25):
Uh, the Duke of Buckingham, uhGeorge Villier, who is um
Charles I's particular favorite,his mother and sister uh convert
to the Catholic faith.
And so Charles is alarmed bythis because even though he's
very high church, he's stillvery Protestant.
And uh Archbishop Loud, uh, whowas actually offered a
cardinal's hat if he'd convert,he's determinedly Protestant.

(01:35:45):
There's actually a debate thatwas arranged to try to dissuade
members of the royal familypeople from converting Catholic
between Loud and a Jesuit thatthey had in prison.
And uh the whole debatebasically turns on Bellerman.
And Loud here is this this is uh16 uh eight uh twenty-two,

(01:36:07):
twenty-three, somewhere aroundthere.
And loud basically you know saysthat after to answer the point
from this Jesuit, he says, Well,you know, if this were true, I
should become a papist withoutfurther ado, but I would never
do that, and I hope that youknow, unless I don't, may God
for you know for forbid thatthat should ever happen.
He was absolutely determinedly aProtestant, but he was concerned

(01:36:27):
with conversions in thearistocracy to Catholicism.
So they wanted to show Charles Iand Loud that Protestantism
could have the beauty ofholiness that Catholic the
Catholic Catholicism seems tohave.
In other words, don't go for thesmells and bells.
We got it right here, too.
So you have this curious thingin the 1620s and 30s the
re-erection of the altars andthe rude screens in English

(01:36:50):
churches, and loud gives thisdirection, and Charles backs it
with royal authority, and ofcourse, it's being forced in in
communities that are very lowchurch Protestants.
They've got to see altars go up,they've got to see the root go
back up again.
So the rude screen, if you'refamiliar with an iconostasis in
a Byzantine church, yeah, it'sthe same thing.
The root is the Westernequivalent, and which the Latin

(01:37:11):
word rudis, which in and ofitself means wood or branch, and
will refer to the crucifix,actually, made of wood with an
image of our Lord flanked by ourlady in Saint John.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:20):
And that that that's where the high church Anglican
stuff starts coming back in,more or less, more or less.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:26):
Well, it creates a reaction, though.
Right.
The reaction, of course, is theis the revolution uh against
against Charles, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:37:34):
And why do we call the Anglican church in this
country the Episcopal Church?
It's actually because of theseevents, because the same thing
happens in Scotland.
So Charles I, then you know, hewas the king of both Scotland
and England, Scotland's aPresbyterian country.
James had forced bishops on theScottish Church, they didn't
like it, but they accepted it.
Charles is a little less savvy,so he comes in, he wants to
impose the book of common prayerin Scotland, and the Scots do

(01:37:59):
not like the Book of CommonPrayer, they call it the filthy
popish book.
They call the Book of CommonPrayer the filthy popish book,
right?
It tells you how far out radicalthey are, so they revolt and
they call the Anglican sideepiscopalians for the support of
bishops because hardcoreCalvinism says that bishops are

(01:38:22):
anathema to the gospel, thatwhat you what it is is that
aristocracy is the best systemof government, according to
Calvin, and therefore presbyterscouncils mirror this best system
of government, not bishops, notauthority.
The presbyters' councils are themagisterium that will interpret
the word of God for the peopleand not bishops, uh the Anglican
model.
So the Anglicans are calledepiscopalians, and that's the

(01:38:44):
same time a lot of people whosupport the Presbyterians in
Scotland and likewise inEngland, they are the ones who
found you know flock in theAmerican colonies.
So their term for the officialchurch is episcopalian, and
that's why in this country it'scalled the Episcopal Church
because they have bishops, andwe don't accept bishops, much to
the chagrin of the MassachusettsBay Colony Puritans.

(01:39:06):
Yes, exactly.
Who furnished soldiers to gofight in the English Civil War
against the king?

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:13):
So okay, so so that's in the 1600s.
When does it when does itactually become where you you're
not persecuted for beingCatholic in England?

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:25):
George the Third attempts to uh legalize
Catholicism, and his test caseis Quebec.

SPEAKER_02 (01:39:32):
We have the Seven Years War, and that ends up in
the Declaration, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 (01:39:37):
Yes, it does actually.
The you know the Quebec Act isnamed amongst the intolerable
acts.
What was the Quebec Act?
Legalizing Catholicism inQuebec.
Uh Quebec was part of the Frenchterritory, the English took it
during the Seven Years War, whatin this country we call the the
French and Indian War.
And but it was fought all aroundthe world, you know.
That's just the face over here.

(01:39:57):
So George III wanted peace inQuebec, and he didn't want to
impose English penal laws.
So he wanted so he was putthrough parliament to legalize
Catholicism in the territory ofQuebec.
And that was kind of the testcase.
And he was looking to legalizeit throughout English colonies
and then England itself.
But then what happens is duringthe American Revolution, the

(01:40:19):
King of France and the King ofSpain stab him in the back.
The uh French are looking foruh, you know, their you know,
revenge for the Seven Years' Warto give the English good
pasting.
So they support Americanindependence.
The Spanish support it andbecause they want to recover
Gibraltar, and because of thesiege of Gibraltar, it pulls
away English forces thatotherwise would have been aiding

(01:40:40):
Cornwallis.
So without that, we might nothave gotten independence.
So there is that.
But George III feels personallyattacked, so he just sours on
Catholic emancipation, doesn'tdeal with it again.
Um, after the Napoleonic Wars,there's a lot of Irishmen in the
uh English Navy, a lot ofIrishmen in uh the English
service, and so anti-Catholicismis a problem.
Uh there is riots in uh you knowin in Ireland for the the

(01:41:04):
institution of English penal lawand in England itself, too.
There's a move, and none otherthan uh uh Wellington comes to
tell the George IV you have togrant Catholic emancipation.
It has to, you know,Wellington's Irish, but he's
Protestant Irish, comes fromProtestant aristocracy, but he

(01:41:25):
recognizes the situation inIreland and in Wales and in
other places where there'sdiscontent.
You can alleviate thatimmediately and share up the
monarchy by granting Catholicemancipation.
And so as a result, um, youknow, the George I fourth is in
more or less feel wellington isthe one who pushes him the other
way.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:44):
And sorry, Anthony, we're we're talking 18 late
1820, I think 1829, 1830.
1834.
Yeah, wow, yeah, and and ofcourse, it's important to point
out you know the the thedownstream you could not be
effectively you could not beEnglish in any official capacity

(01:42:05):
um until technically 1830, buteffectively much later.
So you have somebody likeCardinal Newman, you know, when
when he when he swims the Tiber,he has to leave Oxford.
Wow, he has to he can no longerbe part of Oxford College, yeah.
Um, because he's not English.

SPEAKER_00 (01:42:26):
And so he wrote the first biography of St.
John Fisher, he had to leaveCambridge because once he got
done doing the research on JohnFisher, he realized Catholicism
is true, right?
I can't like and he couldn't beat St.
John's College Cambridgeanymore.

SPEAKER_01 (01:42:38):
He had to like like anybody like illegal, like in
other words, you could not be aillegal entity in the British
Empire if you were not Anglicanor Episcopalian.
Yeah, it's certainly not if youwere Catholic, that's just like
no go zone.

SPEAKER_00 (01:42:52):
It was like no go.
Recusancy fines still hitpeople, but it was it was
sporadically enforced becausethe danger of of a political
revolution, the last gasp ofthat, was Bonnie Prince Charlie.
And the English Jacobites puttheir colors to the mast as well
when he came down after PrestonPans when he beat the uh the

(01:43:13):
English army at Preston Pans.
Then English Jacobites said, Oh,this is serious, okay.
And so uh both Catholic andProtestant Jacobites both all
signed their colors to the mastfor Bonnie Prince Charlie, and
it was again duplicity that wonthe day for them because the
English did not have an armythat could defeat them, so they
used spies.

(01:43:34):
And into there's a guy namedCartwright, an impeccable
Jacobite credentials, but he wasa spy.
And he said, Oh, there's so manyarmies here in Dover and other
places ready to march up, andthen Bonnie Prince Charlie kicks
him out, but then the Scottishnobles are terrified.
Oh no, we're gonna lose.
And so they hit beat a hastyretreat, and then he had
Colloden.
And after Colloden, that's theend.

(01:43:55):
The British built forts all overScotland, they nailed Scotland
to the Union forever, and it'sdone.
So there's that's 17 um 50s.
So after that, there's no dangerof Catholic rebellion in
England.
So reconcency fines are onlycasually enforced.
Catholicism is found eitheramongst the gentry in places

(01:44:17):
where it was safe, or averagepeople who had kept the faith,
they didn't quite know exactlywhat it was all about.
They didn't have regular placesto go to mass, but they kept it.
Uh, Father Philip Hughes, who'sprobably one of the very best
Reformation historians inEngland, he has a book about
this.
I'm looking to get it back intoprint because I did um his book,
English and theCounter-Reformation in England.
I reprinted that.

(01:44:38):
It's a wonderful book, but it'svery dense.
So you gotta love history, lovedetails, love endless segues
worse than what I've done heretonight.
And that's a great book, though.
If you're good for that kind ofthing, similar thing with his
book on Cat basically theCatholic question up leading up
until emancipation.
And he goes, and again, asalways, extremely well sourced,

(01:45:00):
state documents.
Um, you know, he's always FatherHughes, always brings the
receipts.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:08):
Man, this was uh a jam-packed episode.
I thought we might be able toget to locals tonight, but I
yeah, I don't know what I wasthinking.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:17):
We can still get time, we can still do that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:19):
Oh, I can't.
I I wake up at 4 a.m.
for work, so yeah, um, yeah, no,Brian.
I know I know you would keepgoing if uh if I if I allowed
it, but all right, so we'll wegot a question.
We got a couple of questions.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:32):
We got a couple.
Um so just generally speaking,how many political and religious
executions were there byso-called bloody Mary versus uh
very different rain time as wellis taken to account.

SPEAKER_00 (01:45:47):
It's hard to quantify it exactly.
So Mary, um it's around you know300 or so, over 300 Protestants,
but two things you got to keepin mind two-thirds of those were
Unitarians in East Anglia.
And even before Edward the Sixthdied, he and Cramer were

(01:46:09):
actually planning to do asimilar campaign of burning at
the stake of Unitarians, and somost of those people that Edward
VI and Cramer are going to burnare the ones that Mary flat out
Protestant could be able to do.
You'd have Lutheran people ofLutheran opinion that would turn
on their Unitarian neighbors tolook good before the uh the

(01:46:29):
state, you're right, and so nowthat's roughly, and again, these
are committed Protestants.
Some of these are a little bitunjust because you have people
whom were might have been bornwhen England was still Catholic,
but they came to the age ofreason under Henry's church,
where you have preaching againstpapal supremacy four times a
year, where Henry's particularschismatic church is preached as

(01:46:53):
a new religion, and that's thereligion they grew up in.
So you have people now beingtold to forsake this, and you
know, it's a it's a there aresome people that go down that
probably shouldn't.
It's true.
There's some other other things.
It's not that Mary herself ispersonally doing there's only
one.
I mean, Ridley, obviously, andum but but Nicholas Ridley, that

(01:47:15):
is, but Cramer is the one thatthat she is personally
responsible for making sure hegoes to the stake.
And now Cramer, terrified of thethought of being burnt alive,
recants, takes all the gas outof it.
Because according to law, arecanted heretic can't be
burned.
Mary basically says, not goodenough, and she she intervenes

(01:47:37):
directly to make sure he will beburned.
And that's why I said I had tomodify what what uh Dr.
Holland says.
I love Tom Holland, a brilliantguy, and and he and he's
absolutely right in normativelythat Mary Queen Mary Tudor did
not keep grudges, and you seethat in the case of Gardiner.
But Kramer, as far as she wasconcerned, is the author of
every unhappiness she had in herlife, every bit of suffering she

(01:48:00):
had in her life, and he wasgoing to burn.
That was it.
And so once Kramer found out hewas going to burn anyway, he
withdrew his recantation and hegets the propaganda coup.
Oh, this is the hand that didit.
And there's where that's that'srepeated in Fox's Book of
Martyrs and learn inperpetuities.
It was a huge mistake.
But so Elizabeth's numbers areare far more vast in one respect

(01:48:24):
and smaller in others.
It depends on what way you'regoing to view them.
So Elizabeth's numbers are Imean, some of her, like for
heresy, there's both Catholicsand recusant Protestants that
are that are executed for heresyunder Elizabeth.
The the numbers are hard toquantify because the records
aren't really well detailed forthose types of things.
For obvious for obvious reasons.

(01:48:45):
Up in the, you know, up inaround the same numbers or more
than Mary, in terms of likepeople who are killed because
they're Catholic priests orharboring priests, or again, you
have the priest hunters, andthen you have to add in other
things that don't get caught inthe official numbers.
Like um uh everyone knows thepoet John Dunn, his younger
brother was thrown intoFleetwood prison for harboring

(01:49:07):
uh Father Robert Walpole, aJesuit who was martyred.
And then uh his brother was putinto Fleetwood prison, and
because he was Catholic and hedid not have any money or
subsistence to it's he ends upuh contracting um uh cholera, if
I'm not mistaken, and he dies.
Well, that's directly because hewas Catholic.
He wasn't you know immediatelykilled by the state because he

(01:49:30):
was Catholic, but he dies as aresult of it.
And of course, Fleetwood Prisonis still there today, except
it's a prison of a differentsort.
Now it's a bunch of officebuildings, you know.
So but the Marshall, see allthese kind of places, a lot of
Catholics died in those prisonsfor the crime of being Catholic
because they couldn't pay therecurrency fines, and they died
from d disease andmalnourishment because they had

(01:49:52):
no means to accept publiccharity to survive.
Because again, when you went toprison, you had to pay for your
own imprisonment.

SPEAKER_03 (01:49:59):
Uh, what's next, Rob?

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:01):
Any inside baseball on the supposed Elizabeth and
Francis Drake romance?

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:06):
Not a thing.
I wouldn't it's one of those funlittle uh interludes, uh, but by
contemporary sources, um, Drakewas someone celebrated as a
celebrity, but he had arespectful distance from the
queen because he was a pirate,yeah, legitimately.
You know, it was it was unseemlyfor the royal personage to be
that close to to Drake.

(01:50:27):
Now, Drake does get you know acertain degree of honor for the
Spanish armada and everything,but then he falls out of favor
with the court, you know.
So the idea of a room at thetime that this romance is
supposedly take place.
Elizabeth is in her 60s.
She, you know, this is not athing that you're gonna do, and
uh there's no benefit to eitherside in it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50:47):
So do you have an opinion on Robert's The Last
King of America, themisunderstood reign of George
III?

SPEAKER_00 (01:50:55):
I'm not familiar with the book per se.
Um, but in terms of themisunderstanding of King George,
we suffer from a lot ofpropaganda, and and of course,
um people hate me for this, butI'm kind of more of a Tory as
far as the American Revolutiongoes.
Um, it doesn't really matter, ithappened, and this is my
country, so there it is.

(01:51:17):
But at the same time, George IIIwas trying to change the balance
of representation in England.
Part of it was neutering theWhigs, but also he just noticed
that wait a minute, would you wehave a county with like 30 sheep
herds and like a hundred MPs,and then you have places with
thousands upon thousands ofsouls, and they've got like two

(01:51:38):
MPs, and the whole of Scotlandhas one MP.
And it's like, well, what doesrepresentation actually mean
here?
So he wanted to.
I mean, he's the first of theGeorges that actually spoke
English.
Amazing he's the the you know,because George I've he's mostly
Hanover, right?
German and that all comes aboutbecause of the the act, um, the

(01:51:59):
act of succession, and after theglorious so-called glorious
revolution of 1689, where youget James off the throne, the
English monarchy temporarilybecomes elective, and they
declare James is dead, he's not,and he has no heirs, he does,
but we're gonna pretend it'sotherwise, so that we can take
uh William, who is connected tothe monarchy, but is does not
actually have the right to rulein light of the other errors,

(01:52:22):
and we're gonna make him theWilliam III, uh, and uh his
wife, who is James's daughterfrom his first uh first
marriage, Mary Stuart as QueenMary I, joint monarchs by
election.
And William, thus William andMary.
Yeah, so then you get Williamand Mary, and then uh the last
of uh James's said the second'sProtestant daughters, Anne,

(01:52:44):
rules after them, right?
And then then you have the issuebecause you know John Locke
actually writes the act ofsuccession.
No one who is Catholic ormarried to a Catholic may
succeed the throne, so thatknocks out 49 people out of the
line of succession after Anne.
And that leads you to Hanover,because in Hanover you have the

(01:53:05):
the Georg, who is the son ofSophie.
Sophie's the younger sister oflike Prince Rupert of the Rhine
and um that family, which arethe the grandchildren of King
James.
So you're you're pretty farremoved from the line of
succession versus people whohave a far better claim, all
because of parliamentary law.
You can't be Catholic or marriedto a Catholic.
Sophie was a Protestant, she wasliving in Hanover, and Georg was

(01:53:28):
the young elector of Hanover.
So he comes over to England, hedoesn't understand English, he
doesn't understand what he'ssupposed to be doing.
His wife uh does learn English,and she works with Robert
Walpole, who is the he neverofficially has the title, but
he's de facto the first primeminister.
So parliament already declareditself supreme in 1689.

(01:53:48):
The William III wanted Englandto fight his wars against Louis
XIV in France.
So there's a trade-off of yougive up more rights of the
monarchy to Parliament, we willgive you English blood to spill
in the continent, and that'swhat happens.
So that's how the Englishmonarch becomes uh this kind of
figurehead, and George III meansto reverse that.

(01:54:10):
So Parliament wants some kind ofpayment for the Seven Years' War
in the English defense of thecolonies, which ran into the
many, many millions of pounds.
And so George wants like a tokenamount.
Let's put a tag now.
The Stamp Act is the tax theysettle on.
Tax on paper makes perfect sensein England and the way English

(01:54:30):
affairs work, makes zero sensein New England.
Zero.
Because everyone is using paper,you have tons of lawyers, tons
of business, a ton of merchants,a high literacy rate compared to
most of England.
Um, it makes zero sense.
And so it's it's unpopular.
George hears it's unpopular.
What does he do?
He tells the king's men to getthis tax revoked, he gets it
revoked.
When was the last time we got atax revoked?

(01:54:55):
I'm under you know, the Englishmonarchy up to that point, tax
breaks were permanent and taxincreases were temporary.
Uh, today, tax increases arepermanent and tax breaks are
temporary.
So there's all kinds of thingswhere it's not what it was
built.
We gotta kind of divorceourselves from the revolutionary
propaganda, which then leads youto, and then you got people,

(01:55:17):
well, Ryan, do you want to beunder England today?
Well, no, but the defeat of KingGeorge's policies over here are
also the defeat of King George'spolicies over there, and the
England today is the result ofthat, and the hyperform that
we're always espousing to get toby steps and and what have you.
So, no, I don't want to beEngland today, I don't want to
move to England today.
So it's like fourth of Julycomes around, like, what's my

(01:55:39):
country?
Celebrate the revolution, eventhough when I look at it
historically, I kind of supportthe other side, but it's too
late, it's done, and this is mycountry that gave me birth.
So here we are.

SPEAKER_03 (01:55:49):
Um, all right, we're gonna wrap this one up because I
am exhausted and I have to getup for work in the morning,
Ryan.
You are a wealth of knowledge,man.
I cannot believe how you canjust go off the top of your head
like that tobacco and just ripon.
No, it's pretty amazing, man.
You are you are an impressiveperson to talk to because like

(01:56:11):
like one subject just leads intoanother, and you are just you
know literally every that's thedanger.

SPEAKER_00 (01:56:17):
Then you end up off off topic, and you end up in
that that's why when I create mypower, I create a PowerPoint
when I used to give lecturesbecause and in PowerPoint was
largely just pictures, and Imemorized a 55-minute talk
around the pictures, and thatway when I get to the end of
things, oh here's a tangent.
Nope.
Next picture, yeah, otherwise,who knows where it's gonna go.

SPEAKER_03 (01:56:38):
Well, we appreciate it, man.
Kale, uh, let's uh plumb Kale'scourse one more time for anybody
that uh wants to join.
Kale's doing uh what is it gonnabe four weeks, Kale?

SPEAKER_01 (01:56:49):
Yeah, yeah, four nights.

SPEAKER_03 (01:56:50):
Yeah, so four weeks in a row, he's gonna be doing uh
Charles Dickens a ChristmasCarol.

SPEAKER_01 (01:56:55):
It's gonna be and it'll give you plenty of time to
prepare for Christmas.
You know, it's it's it's it'sreally well timed out, so uh no
need to worry about that.
Starts next Tuesday, right?
That's right, next Tuesday.
Cool.

SPEAKER_03 (01:57:06):
All right, yeah, let's let's all let's all help
Kale push this thing.
Let's all join it.
Let's uh let's let's get readyfor advent with uh Christmas
Cal.
Ryan, you got anything you wantto plug?
Uh Mediatrix Press?

SPEAKER_00 (01:57:17):
I mean, who knows?
Any number of things.
I don't have anything new justyet.
I'm still working on things, butum almost there.
Uh I was hoping to get a bookfrom Cardinal Newman out since
he's being declared a doctor ofthe church this month, just
didn't happen.
But his book, The Church of theFathers.
Uh, I haven't got the proof backyet.
And so hopefully that'll besoon.
But otherwise, like subjects wetalk about tonight.

(01:57:38):
Um, I sell a book, Rome and theCounter-Reformation in England
by Father Philip Hughes.
Again, it's a very dense book,it's a very good book.
Um, I have a good life of Saintuh Thomas More by uh E.
E.
Reynolds, also the only completebiography of St.
John Fisher, again by Reynolds.
I sell that.
And uh St.
John Fisher's works, uh Defenseof the Priesthood and the

(01:58:01):
Defense of the Royal AssertionShredding Luther's Babylonian
captivity.
It's just phenomenal stuff.
So um, you know, I highlyrecommend those books.
And um, yeah, there's probably alot more that I want to get done
now than uh the rundown onFriday nights.
Yeah, and the run.
Well, yeah, we haven't done itthough.
Actually, since you were on, wehaven't done it.

(01:58:21):
We killed the rundown, and ourschedules together.
We're hoping to do one Friday.
We'll have to see how things go,but it's just the time, man, and
getting it all together.
And it's a hobby podcast.
Like, if we were seriousgrifters, there's so many things
we'd be doing, but it's like,yeah, we're like, yeah, we got
other stuff we're doing.
It's just kind of fun.

SPEAKER_03 (01:58:40):
Yeah.
Well, thank you both for comingon, Kale.
Appreciate you coming on too,brother.
We will uh we will see you guyson Thursday night.
So thank you all, and we'll seeyou next time.
Take us out, Rob.

SPEAKER_01 (01:58:50):
God bless, guys.
God bless you.

All Episodes

Bloody Queen Bess - The Real Story of England’s Protestant Revolution

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Bloody Queen Bess - The Real Story of England’s Protestant Revolution