April 23, 2025 • 72 mins
What happens when political movements capture the hearts of the faithful? Katherine Bennett of Catholic Unscripted joins Anthony to explore how easily Catholics can be swept along by political currents that promise relief from progressive agendas, yet ultimately distract us from our true center—Christ and His Church.
The conversation delves into our modern tendency to seek messiahs in unlikely places. "I was being drawn too much by the political," Catherine admits, "and there was a danger that I was taking my eyes off Christ and His Church." This vulnerability affects many believers who, after feeling "battered by the progressive agenda," embrace political figures or movements without sufficient discernment. They explore how even opposition to transgender ideology can become a "false flag" that makes us accept other problematic developments simply because they come from "our side."
Most striking is their examination of sacred architecture as a reflection of cultural priorities. Anthony shares his revelation visiting European cathedrals: "When you go into a grand cathedral, you are a peasant being welcomed into the kingdom... You're in the heavenly kingdom." This contrasts sharply with American cities dominated by skyscrapers—"monuments to money"—revealing where our contemporary worship truly lies. The traditional liturgy, they argue, properly orients us by "placing us rightly, in all humility, before our Lord" instead of approaching as equals.
During this time of papal transition, both speakers express hope for healing among Catholics of goodwill despite differences. Their conversation offers a refreshing call to personal sanctity over political activism: "God will raise up the saints needed for this time, and that saint could be you or me." The path forward isn't found in carrying banners or saving the world through activism, but in faithful living of our unique vocations.
What's your primary source of orientation in these confusing times? Join the conversation and rediscover what it means to place Christ at the center of everything.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Sancte, sancte, amare morti et gradas nos In tes vera
verum.
Okay, welcome Catherine Bennettfrom Catholic Unscripted.
(00:34):
Catherine, this is my thirdstream of the day.
So I was on with Joe McLeanthis morning on his show, then I
interviewed Mark and MichaelHichborn at 10.
And now you're my third, butyou're the interview I've been
looking forward to the mosttoday.
You and I had met at theCatholic Identity Conference.
I wasn't like I had no ideawhat to expect when you gave
(00:57):
your talk and you came out thegate.
Hilarious, which I've said manytimes.
Women aren't funny.
You were very funny, which I'vesaid many times, women aren't
funny.
You were very funny.
I was like surprisingly, I was.
I was really surprised by howhard you spoke against feminism
(01:17):
in general and you told a reallytouching story about your
mother and I was you and I hadspoke after I was like I would
love to get you on for aone-on-one.
My wife is also very excitedfor this conversation, so
welcome thank you, thanks forhaving me on yeah.
so, um, you and I had reachedout to one.
Well, actually I found thisinteresting.
(01:38):
You had reached out to me, um,a little after the election and
and I'm I wasn't sure why youknew you'd receive a friendly
response in it.
But you had asked me hey, howare you feeling about all the
Trump stuff?
And I said, to be honest, I'm alittle cautious about it.
I feel like everybody's justbeing swept up in this wave and
(02:01):
my worry is that everybodybecause it's Trump doing it the
same things we were worriedabout under the previous
administration, now that Trumpis doing it, we're all going rah
, rah, maga, you know, and what?
What made you feel comfortableenough to even ask me that?
Because most people like freakout if you don't go along with
the MAGA wagon.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I don't know really, anthony, and maybe let's say
there's some providence at playand and just some discernment.
Say there's some providence atplay and just some discernment.
But I, like you and so manypeople I think, have just felt
so battered by the progressiveagenda, the madness around
transgender ideology, what'shappening in schools, the
(02:38):
indoctrination and the liesgoing to our children, the
untrammeled and unlimitedimmigration with which
apparently cannot be spokenabout, the suppression of speech
, and I think we've been sobattered by that that, you know,
in the beginning I too was likeseeing what Trump was saying
and the kind of moves he wasmaking.
(02:59):
It felt like coming up for air,you know.
It's like, oh, at last.
You know.
And I think I noticed quiteearly on that there was a danger
in my own instinct to to, toleap to anything that wasn't
what we'd been given, what we'dbeen fed, and at that point I
started to realize that I wasbeing drawn too much by the
(03:21):
political and, and there was adanger that I was taking my eyes
off Christ and his church, holyMother Church, and I thought,
if we're ever looking foranswers outside of the church,
you know, and the guidance thatwe've been given in the
tradition there, then I think weneed to be worried.
And then that was the kind ofinstinct and I don't know.
So, first of all, we're, we'refriends and you're over there in
(03:42):
the US, I'm in the UK, so tosome extent we're just observing
from afar, although ourcountries clearly have this,
this, their allies, um, and weknow that what happens over
there, it has an impact here.
But so, first of all, it wasjust for the fact that you, you
know, you're one of one of thepeople I know over there who it
affects more directly, and justtrusting your judgment and and
(04:05):
thought I'd sort of sound youout on where you were.
So that began, I think, our ustalking about this and and
recognizing that maybe all wasnot as ideal as it might have
seemed.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, it's, it's this .
Look, I almost, it almost feelslike the the trans stuff was
like a false flag, like it wasso preposterous that like nobody
liked it, and it was likethey're forcing this stuff down
our throat, that the guy thatcomes in and rescues us from
that you want.
Your instinct is to go.
Finally we have a hero.
(04:36):
But it is dangerous when it'ssuch an easy low hanging fruit
thing, that to thing that tojust get people to go.
Oh, they're not trying to putmy son in a dress anymore.
I guess we've won.
It's like that's not winning,you know.
It's like okay, so this slightlike, exactly as you described.
(04:57):
It's like, oh, they let us comeup for air a bit, which is
probably, you know, it wasalmost like a pressure release
valve in that.
You know, it was almost like apressure release valve in that
and, um, I but I find, uh, thecatholics especially that just
go along with everything trumpis doing are kind of swept up in
a political movement and it'slike some of the things it feels
(05:17):
like like now conservatives arefor electric cars because of
elon.
Now like, uh, they'retrumpeting this real ID thing
because of immigration, butmeanwhile it looks like a step
towards digital ID down the road, all these things that we would
have lost our minds under Bidendoing.
Well, because Trump is doing it,it's okay, and I feel like
(05:38):
Thomas Massey in our country isprobably one of the only people
speaking out clearly about someof the dangers of this stuff.
All the stuff Elon found inDoge, it's like, oh, he found
all this waste, fraud and abuse,but yet they went and passed
the same budget to keep fundingthese.
I don't know.
It all just seems like we'rebeing lulled in to accept the
very things we were very worriedabout before.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But because it's on the Trump, we're going to go for
it yeah, I mean that that Dogestuff worried me because I
thought like let's look a littlebit at what we're doing.
We are celebrating, we arejoyful, we are jumping up and
down and going ha-ha, you gotfound out, you got found out,
look at this waste.
And I thought, well, hold up,we are all vulnerable to messing
(06:23):
up to.
You know, do we really wantsuch a society of intense
surveillance and this, this kindof?
You know it's like, it's likesetting up of, of justice, of
God.
You know it's like kind of this, I will be your, your final
judge and you just think, well,hang on.
There's no doubt that there wasawful overspend and wastage and
(06:47):
it's embarrassing, I mean, someof it's laughable.
You know, going to Afghanistanand and and teaching them about.
Dushanbe's toilet or somethingyou know, seriously, it was
hilarious, but but there's,there was also in the back of my
mind something that that, likeyou said, the transhumanism
stuff, the digital ID stuff, thestuff coming from Musk, I've
(07:07):
got, you know, even just thatdark MAGA stuff.
What's that about?
That's not nothing in terms ofsymbolism, this dark MAGA, you
know that's.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
The way it really like made me start thinking
deeply was when I tried to talkto my father about this, and my
father's an older guy.
He's, and he's almost I thinkhe's 70, now 69 and just he
started talking about Elon likehe was this amazing guy, the
guy's laying down all of it.
You know he's riskingeverything for the country and
I'm like man, elon is atranshumanist like this guy.
(07:41):
He everybody thinks he boughtTwitter for some altruistic
reason for free speech.
No, he didn't.
He wanted our data.
Like, and Twitter is one ofthose platforms where you put
your every thought out on and itit's like such a deep insight
into the human psyche.
It seems like he's trying toreally like get into our brains.
(08:01):
He worries me a lot, elon.
Like get into our brains, heworries me a lot, elon.
And somebody had uh, somebodyhad.
Oh, it was when trump put thethe gaza video out and in the
video there was like goldenstatues of trump and stuff like
that and just looking from theoutside, you know that people
(08:22):
talk about oh, the antichristwill be this person and
everybody thought it was goingto be somebody on the left and
I'm like I've never seen worshipof a person like I have with
Trump, like if anybody in ourmodern world fits the
description.
It seems like Trump to me.
They're building golden statuesto him and Elon is this John
the Baptist figure paving theway for him through Doge.
(08:43):
I'm not saying he actually isthe Antichrist, it's just I've
never seen that pattern lay outquite like I have with Elon and
Trump, and it's scary.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, it's weird.
I mean whatever you think it'sweird.
But it's also strange howonline we are, how manufactured
everything is, how much of anartificial storm is being
whipped up around us and we'rebeing drawn into it even deeper
with with all of this, you know,you think about.
You think about Elon's sayingOK, for years we've been told
(09:16):
the planet's overpopulated, weneed to depopulate or we need to
have birth control and we needto so.
So that's obviously a terriblething to to put limits on
people's um, you know, havinghaving babies and to put limits
on life and to encouragesterility.
That's a bad thing.
But Elon doesn't take the view.
Well, what's the right view isto is to be in a loving marriage
(09:40):
and to be fertile and for thislove to be the, you know, the
mirror of the trinity.
It's just great.
He's not against that.
But in his response is weshould have babies.
There should be more babies.
It doesn't matter who we're.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You know all different women and it's 12 kids
, six baby mamas in vitro, allthat I'm not even, I'm not even
making comment on his own life.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That's his own business.
But but to think that hisresponse, which is, you know,
it's against the wrong thingthis way, but because it's also
swinging to the wrong thing thisway, doesn't make it right,
it's still a, it's still anappalling response that we just
need to, we need to be havingmore kids any which way you want
, guys, you know I, we all knowthat, uh, gay people who have
(10:26):
bought babies, who have usedsurrogates, who have, who have
deprived them of a mother, thisis a great evil.
Ivf is a great evil.
Embryos destroyed and frozen,and and these are human persons,
this is a great evil.
If we can't call that outbecause they are not woke, then
(10:46):
we've got a problem it's?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
it's interesting because somebody put out a tweet
today about trump offering fivethousand dollars to new mothers
and it's like, if you don't, ifyou don't um package that in
five thousand dollars to newmothers who are in a committed
married relationship between aman and a woman, you're talking
about just throwing tons ofmoney at the baby mamas who got
(11:10):
all these different baby dads.
You're encouraging promiscuityand people to just have children
with whoever and it'll lead tothe destruction of the family if
not put in the right context,and that's the pattern, isn't it
?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Destroy the family, destroy the nation, and that's
the pattern, isn't it?
Destroy the family, destroy thenation and we?
It's destroy hierarchy, destroythe hierarchy in the church,
destroy authority, flatteneverything out.
And that's this modernistproject, this post-enlightenment
rationalistic, modernist,brutalist.
And that is why we're seeing areturn to tradition in the
(11:45):
church.
That's why people are beingdrawn to the traditional liturgy
.
It's because actually the humanperson recognises.
It might not be intelligible,you might not be able to say why
, but that's a modern ideaanyway, to be able to explain
everything.
It's more of a recognition ofwho we are and that mystery,
that liturgy, it it places usrightly, uh, before our lord,
(12:12):
humbly, in all humility, beforeour lord.
It we're not walking in like,hey, you know, yeah, god, you
and me, mate, we're one, we'relevel, it's yeah, and we need
that, and actually we need that.
It's like children, childrenwho you say I love you so much,
I'm gonna let you do what youwant.
Just wander in the road, justgo and put your hands in the
fire.
That's not love, what?
(12:33):
Let you do what you want, as ifwe're the best judge of what,
of what we need, our creationthe interest.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So that it's really interesting that you even
mentioned the liturgy, becausewe see the ancient liturgy is
the foundation for Christendom.
Like if you go back you seethat liturgy was the tradition
that was passed down by theapostles and it is what converts
the pagan world.
So to have what has happenedover the last 60 years kind of
(13:28):
just crash down on society andthen have the liturgy changed as
well to where it used to be thepriest facing the altar and god
before all things like all ofthat plays into this whole
misunderstanding of the humanperson and it starts to me I
think you can't get back tofixing anything unless we do fix
the liturgy, which I think iswhy everybody is drawn to the
ancient liturgy is kind ofintuitive yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I mean, this is nature, try as you might what is
true, you can try.
And this is where I think wemust have hope, because you will
always fail.
If it's not the perennial truth, it will fail.
Whether it fails in ourlifetime or not, I don't know,
and in a sense I don't know howmuch we should care, because we
have to focus on our ownsanctity, on our own children
(14:06):
and helping them to become thesaints that they've been created
to be.
But I think you're right.
Any degradation in the church tothe extent that there has been,
I mean actually no, the churchis divine.
So so let's, let's.
It's both human and divine, weknow that.
But but any kind of slippage orcompromise is going to impact
(14:26):
the world.
It's, of course it is.
It's going to impact society,it's going to impact our culture
.
They're not.
You can't just take it out andsay, oh, the church is just a
separate thing, and then theworld?
No, the church is the center,it's the anchor.
And around this you know thisit leads, it should lead, it
shouldn't follow the world whenI so I had gone to italy.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
It was the first time I ever left america.
I went to italy in december andevery single city we went to is
the cathedral, was the highpoint, and then you had
everything kind of built aroundthe cathedral.
Now in america, everything isso lopsided.
It's our tallest building wasthe trade center.
It's like this monument tomoney.
It shows shows where our idolsare right, Cause everything is
(15:09):
focused on money in America.
It's a.
It's a strange city to cut Like.
I live in New York.
You come to New York and youjust see these huge monuments
built to money.
And when I went to Italy, it'syou saw why that Christian
civilization endured for as longas it did.
It was because they always putgod first.
(15:30):
It was the highest point andthey had a symbolic view of the
world.
They knew whatever you made,the highest was the thing you
looked up toward.
Where our modern culture isjust the things that we put at
the highest order is justcompletely upside down.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, and people need , people really need guidance,
and that must come from thechurch.
Mark and I were talking justyesterday in, you know,
following the death of PopeFrancis, that the world looks at
you know, pope Francis and hispontificate, with these
horizontal, worldly eyes, whichsays what a great guy.
You know, he's so simple, hewore simple white robes, he
didn't even stay in the papalpalace, he had simple black
(16:11):
shoes and he's in a fia uno orwhatever.
And isn't that great.
According to what judgment?
According to to the way youjudge any bloke on the street,
this leveling, levelling thatpeople say sell all the art,
sell all the buildings theCatholic Church could pay for
all the poor and to lift peopleout of poverty.
(16:31):
And you know, as if this hasn'tbeen dealt with in scripture,
as if this isn't right there inthe inerrant word of God when
Judas says no, don't waste thatoil on Jesus, sell it and give
the money to the poor.
You know, pope Benedict dealswith this in Jesus of Nazareth,
in the first book, where he goesthrough that exact point.
(16:54):
He says the people loveBarabbas.
We want Barabbas, we wantBarabbas.
He was set up as a kind ofalter ego to Jesus and he was
worldly.
What's he going to offer you?
He's going to be a fighter forthe kingdom and for everything
worldly.
And what do the people choose?
They choose Barabbas, and PopeBenedict deals with that so well
(17:16):
and he says would we chooseBarabbas again today?
Would we choose this humble man,jesus, no would we choose this
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
We would humble man Jesus.
No, we would choose Barabbas.
Barabbas means son of thefather.
It's like Bar Abba means son ofthe father and um, yeah, we're.
We're constantly looking for afalse Messiah, which is what I
kind of see in Trump, right,like you think about.
Okay, so yes, I saw a clip fromthe view earlier where they're
like Pope Francis was the mostJesus-like pope ever and I
(17:48):
remember the red shoes thatBenedict wore and everybody was
like his red shoes.
It's like Benedict was trying tobring the kingdom to earth and
people really like to understandwhat the kingdom on earth, like
the gospel, is so linked to.
When Jesus goes throughout thegospel he says repent, for the
(18:09):
kingdom of heaven is at hand andwhat happens is heaven
colonizes earth.
That's what actually happens.
You see, that's what ourcathedrals are.
You're in the country with amonarchy, so for Americans it
might be something they miss,but when you go into a grand
cathedral, you are a peasantbeing welcomed into the kingdom.
(18:29):
It's like you would never beinvited to the coronation of
King Charles, but you can walkinto the coronation of the king
of the universe by going into acathedral.
You go in and you're in theheavenly kingdom and you should
be meditating upon the kingdomof heaven when you go into these
cathedrals yeah, it's like youwant to sell all that.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Who to what?
For who does this belong to?
This belongs to the, the, thesimplest peasant, the prostitute
on the street.
This, this beautifularchitecture, this beautiful art
.
It belongs to us.
Who you're going to sell it to?
Some private interest group,some, some of the highest bidder
, so that they can do what withit, turn it into a disco?
It's done, yeah, which theyhave done in the UK, where we're
(19:13):
all obviously our churches werestolen.
We want them back.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It's, but it's happening.
It's happening everywhere,right?
So you had even in Albany, newyork, in my state, they gave the
cathedral away to muslims.
It's like there was a.
There was a traditional groupwho wanted to buy it and they
said no and they gave it tomuslims, because this whole um
(19:39):
lurching towards ecumenism issuch a bizarre thing that the
hierarchy is doing.
I caught it with cardinal dolan.
This lent was like I don't knowwhy he does it every year.
I don't know why this year irkedme talking about ramen he's
eating, cooking, talking aboutfasting, it's like he's, he's
pretty, uh, he's pretty funny,cardinal dolan, but I I spoke
(20:01):
about him this morning on joemclean's show.
Um, I don't know if rob'scoming in, I see he's in there,
but Rob, if you're going to comein, pop on different.
Joe McLean was talking aboutDolan this morning because he's
my archbishop, technically, likeI'm in the diocese next to him
and he was the first bishop toallow, like a gay flag inside
(20:24):
the St Paddy's Day parade.
But then, like two weeks later,he was in my diocese and he and
he confirmed my daughter in theold rite.
So it's like he's, he's just astrange character, cardinal
Dolan, but this year during Lent, he's eating that cookie and
he's talking about our, ourMuslim brothers and Ramadan.
And I was like man, these guyscan't talk about the Christian
(20:44):
faith without mentioning, youknow, the Jewish Passover or
Muslim Ramadan.
I wonder who they're, evenpastors for it's.
It's?
We really live in such bizarretimes now.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, and are these people coming in?
Are they giving up their ways?
Are they converting toCatholicism?
Because you do that Half thetime?
I just don't think they evenrespect respect because they see
it's transparency and say, well, you're not standing for what
you actually are.
I was in an AA van, which is aroad recovery vehicle over here,
when I broke down and the guydriving was a Muslim and we got
talking and I was telling himwhat I do and he said you know,
(21:18):
I don't even know what the UK is.
Is it a Christian country?
I don't know why you lot seemto be really ashamed of your,
your own culture, your owncountry, your own Christianity,
and I thought this is a Muslimtelling me he thinks that's not
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It's very strange that self-hatred that Christians
seem to have at this point,especially in the hierarchy.
It's bizarre.
Yeah, you had.
You had actually mentioned inthe Green Room that.
You said it was anecdotal, butyou think that there's some
Muslims having dreams of Jesusand talking about pizza ball.
What was that?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Well, I don't know, it is anecdotal, but I've heard
of as many people watching willhave done that a muslims are
converting and they are havingvisions and dreams.
And some have spoken about um.
They see pizza ballers as pope,you know.
A few have have kind of saidthis is what they see.
(22:18):
What to make of that?
I have no idea, we were sayingwhat a crazy time we're living
in.
And god you know, it's in god'shands, but well, you.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Well, you just said.
You just said, like, are peopleeven coming in when they, when
the hierarchy starts sayingthese messages?
Right, and I saw on the viewsonny hostin's.
Like you know, pope, I'vealways struggled with my
catholicism.
Until pope francis comes alongand it's like, okay, but did you
go back to mass?
No, you just like that you'renot embarrassed to tell your
(22:51):
liberal friends you're Catholicnow because the Pope is over
there leading the world to thinkthat we now bless gay unions.
I don't know who gets convertedby this craziness.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
No, no, I know it's madness, isn't it?
I'm slightly familiar with theview and I know you have to
watch it for work, anthony, andotherwise I would have no
interest, but they just seemlike a.
I mean, we've got a similarthing.
I think it's loose women.
It's a bunch of women, rightwho, who sit around and sort of
talk about putting the world torights.
(23:20):
Yeah, I saw that WhoopiGoldberg's involved, isn't she?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, it's like the Whoopi goldberg.
Uh, there's a couple other headand peckers she went to meet
pope francis, didn't she?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
yeah, he gave her an audience, not so much cardinal
zen, but whoopi goldberg.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah well before before we jump over the other
side.
What, what are your?
What are your feelings on thisconclave coming up like
everybody keeps saying the samenames over and over.
There's a good chance it'll besomebody we had never heard of,
who wasn't in the public eye,because things are so public now
and there's so many interviewsand social media posts of
(23:58):
different cardinals sayingthings.
I think there is a good chancewe'll get somebody we'd never
heard of before, because thefear of bringing somebody who is
well known and we'll be able tojust go through all of their
stuff immediately, like this,this, this conclave, I don't
know.
I see chaos coming in thechurch.
How are you feeling about it?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, I'm similar.
I think Mark said yesterdayit's a month game, trying to
predict anything, because youjust never know, and you know we
can have people that we mightprefer um, but as you say, the,
it's likely to be somebody wetotally out left field.
That we didn't, we didn'texpect.
I, I have no idea.
(24:37):
I'd like to see um, I'd like tosee a pope who speaks with
clarity, you know who guides theworld at a time that is, during
this confusion, and I thinkPope Francis was just too
ambiguous.
You know, in my view he was aPope loved by atheists and
(24:58):
secularists.
But, as we've said before, wheredid it take them?
The churches are hemorrhaging,you know there's there's footage
of women dancing around churchand they're empty.
And then where's?
Where's the good fruit?
Where?
Where is it growing?
Where it's more traditional?
And there's nothing.
You know that that's God movingin spite of everything.
(25:19):
And so I'd like to see a Pope.
Partly.
You know what, anthony, it'snot even coming out and saying
and teaching a lot of stuff.
I just think there was too much.
You know, pope Francis, therewas a time you just felt like
just just just shut up, justshut up Again.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So just yeah, holding back.
It was an exhausting 12 yearsthat we had to endure.
It's like you think about, likeit was just exhausting, but
there, look I there were goodthings that came from it.
What?
But which I would just say?
Even the relationships I madeover the over the course of the
past 12 years, because we feltlike we were being attacked.
(26:06):
It kind of made us formcommunities where we could
endure that attack and meetother people of like-mindedness.
But my real hope for the nextpope is that I think there are
good people in these differentfragmented segments of the
church.
I feel like the church itself,the laity, are so fragmented
right now.
(26:26):
Everybody's got their cliqueand I would love to see a pope
come in and kind of unite theCatholics of goodwill and at
least if we could have somehealing amongst the brothers and
the sisters who actuallybelieve the faith, even if it's
not this ultra-traditionalistthat comes in and fixes
(26:46):
everything.
I think if there could be somehealing amongst each other,
where we're not calling somebodya popesplainer, I would love to
see some healing there, becauseI do think there's going to be
persecution down the road and ifat least we could link arms
with our brothers.
It would make things a loteasier to deal with.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, I think that's really important, and exactly
what we need is that unity, andlet's hope we get it.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Watch this.
I'm actually flying.
Oh no, no, Saturday's thefuneral, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm going to be flying.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, and then?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
no fright, no Saturdays, the funeral, isn't it
?
Yeah, and then we'll, we'll see.
I don't know if I'll be in theU?
S when I'm there for for justover a week, so I don't know
what will happen during thattime.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
But we'll see.
So, all right, I do want totalk about some stuff we're not
going to talk about on YouTube.
I want to ask you about some ofthe pushback you're receiving
over there for your recentinterview so for anybody because
a lot of people were lookingforward to me talking about that
.
But I think we're going to dothat.
On the other side, I saw somepeople that I actually did
(27:55):
respect up until recently comingdown and attacking you guys and
I was like I just don'tunderstand why this person
couldn't make a phone call andthings like that.
So we're going to go over tothe other side and we're going
to talk about that.
It's going to take me a minuteto cut these other feeds off,
but anybody that is not a Localsmember go join our Locals.
That's where we have the moredifficult conversations, and
(28:17):
then Rob and I will beinterviewing Cale Zeldin tonight
at 8 pm.
Catherine Catherine's onCatholic Unscripted.
If you guys are not subscribedto Catholic Unscripted,
definitely head over there.
I'm typically we don't usuallyhave women on this show,
catherine, but I could not nottalk to you.
I had to have a conversationwith you.
(28:39):
My wife was very excited forthis one too.
She's been watching you fromafar, just saying how brave you
are, so I know she's excited forthis one too.
She's been watching you fromafar just saying how brave you
are, so I know she's excited forthis conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, you're very kind, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
All right, we're going to cut these other feeds
off.
We'll see you guys on the otherside.
Let me just say it's usuallyhave Rob here to do all this,
but when did he go?
He's working today.
So I took off of work today forI just thought I figured you
know how often do we get a youknow a death in the papacy and a
(29:13):
conclave coming up.
So I figured let me take a dayoff.
I went on Joe McLean's showthis morning.
It's been.
I just figured let me jam allthe people in that I don't
normally get to interviewbecause you're on a totally
different time zone than me.
It's either we did this or Ihave to do a Saturday show.
(29:36):
This was the best rest.
Let me just see I have one more.
I have to get rid of Just therumble.
Let's say, OK, that should beit.
We should still be on local, OK.
So one of the otherconversations you and I had was
(29:58):
so you were introduced to FatherMaudsley from the Catholic
Identity Conference yourself.
Right, I think that's where Ifirst found him.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, I suppose it would have been yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And then you decided to interview him and I know you
guys got a ton of pushback onthat.
He's somebody where you're notgoing to control the
conversation.
He's going to say what he'sgoing to say.
So I did see in the firstmoment of coming out it was like
, oh okay, this is like a firehose.
(30:33):
We're just getting right intothis, I see.
But watching the pushback fromcertain segments, you guys are
definitely more respectable thanwe are.
So I had a conversation similarto yours with father Maudsley,
but I didn't really get muchpushback.
But just seeing what they, whatthey did to you I saw Deacon
(30:53):
Nick Donnelly came out hammeringagainst you guys.
I saw a jihad watch came outafter you.
What has that been like?
Just dealing with all thepushback.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, I spoke over on YouTube about how we're we're
living.
You know and I know this mightseem hypocritical because we run
a podcast but we're we'reliving in an in an online world,
and I think it's easy to be soswept up in a storm a
manufactured storm and and thinkit's real and let it touch your
real life.
(31:23):
And you have to walk your dogs,look in your kids eyes, eat
with them.
You know, you have to rememberthis is not because I think
that's what's.
I think that's kind of whatpeople want.
They want you to think this isreal, and so it was.
On the one hand, it was like itwas horrible, but on the other,
you see it for what it is.
(31:44):
I just think people revealthemselves.
I took the view that you justkeep a dignified silence, which
I did.
I didn't respond to positivethings or negative things.
I just thought, well, that'sbecause the problem is, isn't it
, anthony?
Is once you get into that, yourealize it's not really what
(32:05):
people want.
It's people.
Whatever you do is never goingto be good enough, because
they've decided they want toattack you, right?
So you think back to BlackLives Matter.
When George Floyd died, we hadthis thing where I mean I was
watching it like kind of from.
I've never been into socialmedia.
(32:26):
I only started with CatholicUnscripted.
I never got into Facebook.
I never got into Twitter.
It's all very recent for me.
Um, I avoided it, but I saw myolder kids and the kids from
school that they live in thisonline world and there were.
I couldn't believe what I wasseeing.
There were.
There was a day when apparently, you had to put a black square.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And if you didn't, you're a racist.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And I was.
I was laughing, I was sayingare you serious?
You're, there were kids shakingwith fear because they didn't
put a black square on Instagram,and now they're racist.
And then you say, hang on, alllives matter, right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
You racist, you're so racist.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
All lives.
Oh wow, I'm so sorry for myracism Like that's insanity.
That's the kind of insanitythat I am not going to buy into
or play, or play along with.
So once people start compellingyou and saying you've got to do
, and if you don't do this,you're complicit, you're a
racist I could see the samepatterns.
So we faced and also FatherMortley is Father Mortley.
(33:31):
What he says doesn'tnecessarily reflect what I
believe.
So it's just not fair to layall that at our door.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I think it's okay.
All we heard for the past fewyears was you shutting people
out of the conversation to letthe let the best idea win.
And the thing is, for me thiswas a conscience issue.
I like I really don't want totalk about this issue.
I don't.
It's.
What I saw happening was somehorrible things happening
(34:02):
between Gaza and Israel, andthen I saw a lot of Catholics
justifying, like the, the murderand slaughter of innocent
children and things like that,and finding ways to justify all
of that.
And that's what kind of made mestart thinking about this issue
a little bit.
And then I started thinkingabout it from a theological
point of view.
And how, like, what role do dothe Jews play in salvation
(34:26):
history?
And when you see in the oldTestament, so much of it is
about the covenant passing tothe Gentiles and the and the
Jews reaction to that, like I, Ikind of had to see that if, if
the Pharisees crucify Christ thefirst time, how do they not in
(34:47):
a theological sense andtypological sense, how are they
not going to be the same?
It should be the same thing inChrist's return right, like the
persecution of the church.
They're going to play some kindof a role in it, to play some
kind of a role in it.
So you know, I do think it'stricky with Father Maudsley when
(35:07):
he comes right out the gatetalking about the Holocaust and
things like that, because Idon't it kind of makes people
just go, I don't want to hearthis and they shut the
conversation down.
But that doesn't mean there'snot important things that he's
saying that Catholics are goingto need to grapple with.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, like you, I'm less interested and to some
extent don't even really know.
I don't have the time in mylife to be trawling through
endless videos.
I've read Father Morsley'sbooks.
I think they're very, veryinteresting books and very good
books, and I'll say that, and Ihappen to know him personally
and he's a good and kind friendas well.
But, as you say, to speaktheologically, spiritually,
(35:55):
typologically, that has to bedone.
We can't avoid that out of fear.
Now, I do understand that thisneeds to be, that we need to
speak prudently because, thoughwe might be speaking spiritually
and theologically, that may notbe how it's heard.
(36:18):
So I can understand that.
But to say it cannot bediscussed at all is problematic.
And what's interesting just topick up on your point about
Israel and Palestine is thatthis again we see this political
ideology, this politicalattachment.
So certainly over here, israelis a right wing cause,
(36:47):
supporting Israel is a rightwing cause, supporting as a
right-wing cause, supportingPalestine is a left-wing cause.
So if you've pinned your colorsto a right-wing cause and you
don't like the progressives andyou don't like the um, the
policies of the left, then youjust are a supporter of Israel
and Zionism and and what I?
I think that's problematic asCatholics.
That is problematic because wecan't.
It's like those people likeDave Rubin, great conservative
commentator, then bought babies.
(37:09):
As far as I know, that's badLike if we can't call out
because, because we like hisconservatism, our politics have
trumped our faith faith.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yep, I see it like it's just because there's some
crazy lunatics that take aposition doesn't mean they might
not have something right inwhat there's.
So, like you don't want to getlumped in with the lunatics or
some supporting Hamas, like Ikind of see it as there's no
good guy over there, there'sjust no good guy.
I'm not supporting Hamas, I.
What I do look at is someonelike Cardinal Pizzabala who
comes out and he's telling youabout the actual suffering on
the ground and the evils thatare being committed there.
(37:48):
And there's PalestinianChristians there.
This isn't a Jew versus Muslimthing.
There's Palestinian Christians.
They've all but wipedChristianity out of the Middle
East over the past few decades.
We're talking about thebirthplace of Christianity,
where Paul's on the road toDamascus and that's where he has
his conversion, and there's noChristians left in Iraq and
(38:12):
Afghanistan, anywhere, in allthese places that it used to
exist.
Now, the other thing about oneof the big things that stuck out
to me was even the idea ofcalling it the Holocaust, though
the implication of that is thatChristians sacrificed all Jews
as a burnt offering to God, andjust the fundamental fact that
(38:38):
we call it that, I think, shouldraise our alarm bells, because
there is one man, jesus Christ,who was sacrificed for our sins,
and it wasn't Jews as acollective, and that is what
gets pushed in this whole thing.
And then, if you speak heresyagainst that event, the reaction
to Father Mosley, instead ofpeople saying, okay, well, look,
this is what you're saying andthis is why it's not true, it's
(39:01):
this outrageous reaction to himand it's just accusing him of
the most horrific things,calling him a Nazi and this and
that, and it's like can you justaddress what he's saying
Because he might like you.
I can't just watch hundreds ofhours of videos on this topic.
I don't know what the correctanswer is, but I would like to
hear a reasoned response to thethings that he's saying and then
(39:24):
I'll make a decision on whetherhe's right or wrong on it.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
And I think that's very telling, isn't it?
And to some extent, I think,can people not see that what
you're doing is?
It's like giving grist to themill for people who, who see, if
you see someone saying, look,there's a real problem and the
problem is, let's say, the JewsRight.
(39:50):
And then he speaks about that,and then everyone who otherwise
is measured and calm says deleteit, shut him up.
You, you're terrible, you'reNazis, you're evil, you should
burn in hell.
Then suddenly, people who nevereven thought this was a thing
to pay attention to are sayingwhoa, hang on a minute.
What this is insane Like.
(40:10):
This response is insane.
We've had, we've had publicCatholics who individually, on a
personal level, we have beenfriends with, who we have
supported, who know full well,full well, anthony, that we are
not hateful people, that we donot wish death and destruction
(40:32):
on anyone, that we love andteach love and believe in the
gospel and want the Jews toconvert and pray for the Jews.
That's a good thing, that's aloving thing, that's not
something that we should beashamed to say.
But the response has beenunlike anything I have ever seen
and bear in mind on our podcast.
We are not shrinking violence,we talk about Islam and
(40:59):
immigration and the riots andthe government and the crackdown
on free speech and the abortionbuffer zone and transgenderism
and homosexuality and happilythere is flippantly sometimes
because we're unscripted, youknow, maybe even imprudently at
times homosexual infiltration inthe church and all this sort of
(41:20):
thing without anything otherthan some people saying you're
not very nice, you don't likegay people, which again is just
missing the point.
But on this, um, it's unlikeanything I have ever seen with
police reports people sayingcall this number to report these
people to the metropolitanpolice.
Report Catherine for hate crime, she needs to be arrested.
(41:43):
Bear in mind I didn't say Ididn't, I didn't say anything
Right, so, but I need to bearrested, I need to be put
behind bars for hate crime,because I spoke with Father
Morsi, ostensibly really aboutthe liturgy and, as you say, I
didn't want to be drawn intosomething and, as you say, I
(42:09):
didn't want to be drawn intosomething that I am just not
equipped and don't have theknowledge to be able to engage
in that kind of publicconversation about.
But I do think you've made agood point about the word
holocaust.
Let this holocaust is used inthe old testament for the
oblations in the temple,prefiguringuring then and
leading up to the sacrifice ofour Lord Jesus Christ.
The worst thing in history, thegreatest crime, the killing of
(42:31):
our Lord, and this sacrifice,this perfect love.
And then we've just you know,we're just here in the
resurrection, um, this, thisperfect offering of taking the
sins of the world take, takingsins into the tomb and um wiping
out sin and death and offeringus a eternal, eternal life.
(42:51):
That's the biggest thing.
The incarnation, the death andthe resurrection of our lord
jesus christ is the biggestthing, the most significant
thing, the thing that is mosttrue and most meaningful in
anyone's, any human person'slife.
So the the word holocaust isloaded with theological
significance and there's.
(43:13):
That's not to make any commentabout denying or saying there
wasn't, but the term shoah Ithink is, is one that is it
might be more appropriate to usewhen we're talking about those
events.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, look, and the thing is it's just the framing
of the way this discussionhappens.
First off, it is dangerous foryou to have these conversations
in England because we do knowthey will arrest people for
having conversations over there.
It's quite crazy, but, yeah,the reaction to it is completely
(43:47):
unhinged.
But the fact that I'll seepeople get more upset if you
even talk about this issue thanthey do about blasphemies
against our lady or our Lord isshocking to me.
It's like you'll seeProtestants say things like Mary
(44:08):
was just a vessel, like you'respeaking about the mother of God
in ways that are so degenerateand Catholics will think nothing
of it.
But then if you touch thisnarrative, like, do you part of
me?
Because you see someone likeDeacon Nick Donnelly, who I
liked, I've always liked, but Iwas just appalled.
(44:28):
It took a little bit of time,for you know our generation and
younger that are starting to saywait a minute, like why is this
(44:49):
one event so untouchable?
But everything else, like youcould comment on any event in
history, but this event for somereason just makes people lose
their minds and the reactionthat you get actually makes me
want to look deeper into it.
Like you said, like the factthat you get actually makes me
want to look deeper into it.
Like you said, like the factthat you're reacting like that
is making me say, wait a minute,maybe there's something more to
this yeah, it's, it's, it's areally interesting one.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I, I, I don't, I don't know, um, I, I think
observing what's going on.
This is, you know, we need toobserve, we need to discern, we
need to keep praying, and I'mnot saying I have conclusions or
answers, but it's beenrevealing these last few days.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Well, I think that you were just.
You were just.
Even with that conversation Isaw it Like I don't.
I think you just wanted to havethe conversation and just hear
it, right.
I think you just wanted to havethe conversation and just hear
it, right.
You made no proclamation ofendorsement or anything like
that.
You were just willing to sitand have a conversation and hear
Father Maudsley out.
(46:09):
Now I just would like to seesomebody present a reasoned
argument against it Now, whetherwhether the there was actual
infiltration because peoplecaved to specific demands.
I don't think you can.
I think it's.
It'd be silly to say that themen who came from the council
like the council is in, youcannot separate the council from
World War II council, like thecouncil is in, you cannot
separate the council from WorldWar II.
And the fact that John Paul II,who was in Poland and witnessed
these events, had to getpermission from the communists
(46:30):
to even attend the council.
And then you have Benedict, whowas in Germany and he was
forced to join the Hitler Youth,like the fact that those two
men were the popes after thecouncil and after those events.
I think it's kind of like naiveto say that those things didn't
affect the church and thechurch's approach.
I think that that whole storyis why we have this ecumenical
(46:52):
outreach and this dialogue, andthe things that we're so worried
about in the church aredirectly a cause of the the
things that happened back inWorld War II.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah, I think.
So the term infiltration isreally loaded, and I think
that's part of the problem is ifpeople like you say,
irrespective of Father James'sintentions, if he says something
, and people can't go furtherthan that to hear anything of
value because they've alreadybeen put put off by that, then
(47:27):
that's a shame.
You know that that is a shame,but, but, but I, but I think
like we, I don't know how goodit is for our spiritual lives
anyway, but the enemy is alwaysat work.
You know the enemy is always atwork and the enemy will at work
.
You know the enemy is always atwork and the enemy will.
So people, people waving rainbowflags and wearing leather chaps
and going on trains and saying,you know, hey, gay pride and
(47:49):
everything, to some extent youlook at them and say, isn't that
awful?
But you also just think you are, god love you.
You know god love you.
You are such a vessel and avehicle for the enemy to do this
work.
And so, um, I may, I, I can seethat we, we want to say the
enemy is at work and and is hegoing to try and infiltrate the
(48:11):
church?
Is he going to try and disruptthe church?
Is he going to try and umdestroy the spotless bride of
christ, will he?
Speaker 1 (48:17):
do it.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
No, you know yeah, of course he's going to try that.
So how he tries that and withwhat people then to say that
can't be discussed again.
So I think what I foundinteresting is I was in news
studios the day that the Popedied, or, yeah, the morning he
(48:39):
died, and I was three hours in astudio in London doing some
rolling commentary for for anational broadcaster and in
between takes in the studio Ibumped into a fellow catholic
journalist and he went for me.
He went for me, he was shaking,shaking.
He doesn't know me other thanthrough um journalistic work
online.
But he and I, he attacked me and, um, the producers had to say
(49:06):
we need to separate you and putyou in another room.
They said this has neverhappened before.
And then he did his piece andhe did a good job and he came
out and I said oh, thank youthat that was a really good
interview, well done.
And he kind of didn't know whatto do then.
Because I thought if we respondwith, if someone's attacking us
and we respond angrily oraccusatory or violently, or you
(49:28):
know the these, all these piecesyou've said nick donnelly
jihadi, watch jules gomezattacking and saying you nazis,
if I just think the rightresponse is just love your enemy
just love your enemy.
I know they're trying to,they're trying to get a reaction
, and so the worst thing we cando is to even defend yourself.
(49:49):
I think you know, and I think Iwant to say let my body of work
speak for itself.
I've been writing as a Catholicjournalist for years.
I've been broadcasting, and youlook at my body of work, mark's
body of work, gavin's body ofwork, and you look at my body of
work, mark's body of work,gavin's body of work.
If you want to pick somethingout, take it's like you say OK,
let's talk about the issue, butdon't just attack the person
(50:10):
baselessly, which is what'shappening.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
You're also in an interesting spot because you
guys are a three person show, soyou know there's this way that
they want to link all three ofyou to every single idea.
(50:33):
And I had Mark on this morningand him and I disagreed on like
I feel like the trajectory thechurch is on and through
Salvation History to me, theevents that we're living through
right now, with even theelection of this next pope and
everything, it feels like likethe story is building to a
crescendo.
Like you know, we're coming tothe end of a story.
I know, I know, I know ummichael hitchborn thinks a
little more like I do.
It feels like we're coming tothe end of a story where I think
(50:56):
mark disagrees and he's like,well, no, it could take
centuries for this to work outand stuff, but there there's
disagreement there, but we stilllove one another and it's you
know you're allowed to have adiffering opinion from somebody
and you're allowed to have aconversation with somebody and
it doesn't mean all three of youhold the same opinions and you
know that's one of the downsidesto having more than one person
(51:16):
linked in your show, I think.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love Gavin and Mark, we really
are the best of friends and, um,we, we've been through a lot
together but you know, we, weare our own people and we're
just lay Catholics, uh, with avoice.
We're not saying, you know, in asense we're not trying to point
to us, we're trying to point toChrist, always, and and Holy
(51:38):
Mother Church, um, but we dodisagree on things sometimes,
and, and mark, for example, andgavin disagree quite vehemently
about russia and ukraine, butwe've never, we've always said,
well, that that's okay, you can,you can have that out, we're
not going to stop you speakingum about that, even though you
(52:01):
may have a different point ofview, and we do have to balance
that and manage that.
But I think in that sense wehave a responsibility to be a
model, because if we'rescreaming at each other and
shouting at each other and adhominem attacking each other,
then what kind of model ofChristianity is that, when there
are people having the sameconversations in the church,
(52:21):
also about the Jewish question.
The church, you know, alsoabout the Jewish question, also
about Israel and Palestine, alsoabout Russia and Ukraine, also
about politics.
People in the church the worldover are having the same
conversation, so we have aresponsibility to model that
well, I think.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah yeah, relationships are hard.
So it's like if we, asChristians, can't love the
people God has put in our lives,it's going to be awfully hard
to love our enemies, right?
So I think I think we all Ireally do admire the way you've
handled the whole things.
I haven't seen you once lashout and try to defend yourself
or anything.
But I also think that you'recourageous and I think it was
(53:00):
think it was awesome that youbecause it was a difficult
conversation to have and youknow, I mean I got canceled from
a an event in February.
I was supposed to speak at adiocesan event and I had
somebody coming after merepeatedly accusing me of
antisemitism, of of chauvinismand misogyny, all this stuff.
(53:22):
And the diocese finally saidwe're going to cancel you, we
can't have you come.
And in that moment I said OK,what I learned is never agree to
do a diocesan event again,because if they get any kind of
pressure, they're going to cave.
But the other thing was Irealized if you just turn
Twitter off, you don't even knowanything's going on, like it's
really not real.
If you just turn twitter off,nothing's happening.
(53:44):
Go like you said kiss your kids, go for a walk.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
It's not the real world yeah, get in the real
world, yeah, and um, we I'mreally sorry to hear that, by
the way and and I think that's areal shame um, because your,
your voice is needed, yours androb's, uh, in, you know, in this
, in this, at this time, um,publicly, uh, but we've, we've
faced it too.
You know, we went to Irelandand there was an attempt to shut
(54:09):
us down.
We went to the north of Englandand there was a similar attempt
to shut us down and hatefulthings written about us, and
I've always taken the view look,same same about the Maudsley
interview.
I've taken the view look, I'mright, if I'm right with God, my
concern is getting toconfession, um, loving my family
, failing as I do, and goingback and asking, by God's grace,
(54:31):
to pick me up and to and tocontinue trying.
If I feel I'm right with God,then that's, that's my priority.
That's my priority.
I don't priority, I don't needto, I don't need to prove myself
to somebody saying but you are,aren't you?
Come on, if you don't sayanything, you must be complicit.
Well, that's what they'retelling me.
But you know, if God, you knowit's between me and God, right,
(54:57):
yeah?
Speaker 1 (54:58):
And I'm constantly asking God to like, if I'm wrong
, show me I'm wrong.
Like I don't want to doubledown on an incorrect position.
So it's like even even the wayI handled Francis, like I wasn't
I always had a hard time withanybody who was like 100 percent
sure in their conclusions aboutFrancis.
It's like he's an invalid popeor you know, the chair is vacant
(55:20):
or he's the greatest thingthat's ever walked the face of
the.
You know he's the greatest Popeever, the most.
It's like I think anybody thatdoubles down so hard in their
position on something like that,that is just unknowable.
Like we just we don't know,maybe down the line some future
conclave will say he was aninvaluable, you can't possibly
know.
So why put your, youreverything on this position?
(55:43):
That is just unknowable.
So I mean I remember prayingseveral times like God, if you
want me to just be obedient tothis Pope and do that like I'll
do whatever you want.
It's just there were so manywarning flags that came up and
so many times that somethingwould be so outlandish that I
said, okay, my approach is goingto be.
Just, it's still the church.
(56:03):
I don't know what's going tohappen.
I'm going to leave it to afuture Pope to make the
determination, and I'm justgoing to trust that when Jesus
said the gates of hell will notprevail, he meant it and he
knows what's going on, even if Idon't.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we don't put our.
It's interesting that, becauseyou don't put our stock in
things that are unknowable, butbut there are knowables as well
and on those we stand, and it'snot because it's my truth or
your truth, but it's becauseit's the truth.
And so we stand on what isknown and, in fact, um, the it,
(56:39):
it is under the, I say, thecurrent pontificate.
Pope Francis has died, ofcourse, and we're currently
without a pope.
We're all said evocantists, noweveryone, but the it's, in fact
, the opposite is true.
What we saw is quite a dogmaticand quite a tyrannical approach
(57:01):
to issues that were prudential.
You know, issues around how we,what's our attitude towards
recycling, for example, and netzero.
These are prudential issues.
These are, these are absolutetruths and it's outside the
purview of the church.
So to say well, well, popeFrancis has issued this and we
must do this.
Say well, well, pope francishas issued this and we must do
(57:27):
this, um, it's okay to say well,no on issues to do with life,
on conception, from, from onlife, from conception to natural
death.
That's an absolute.
So there are some things thatare absolute and some things
that are prudential, and I, andpeople over the past 12 years, I
think were were taking thoseprudential issues and saying but
your pope says this and this isan absolute, and so to say,
well, actually there's room forjudgment on that yeah again was
(57:51):
something that you were shouteddown for and they say, yeah, but
you don't say that aboutabortion.
See a bit, because that isn't,that is not a potential.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
How has your perception of john paul ii and
benedict changed over?
Because for me, I I talked thismorning with mark and michael
about this like I, I grew up inthe jp2 era.
Um, I was one of the probablyone of the people who was like
oh, he's a living saint.
During his pontificate it wasall about Mother Teresa and John
(58:25):
Paul II and Benedict was justlike a hero to me.
And then, under Francis, it'skind of like when I look back on
it, I still have a deepfondness for both of those men.
I still have quite a bit ofnostalgia for them, but I also
am like, oh man, there were alot of flaws there.
I mean even talking about theclimate change stuff.
Both of them were very proclimate change stuff.
(58:45):
But the deeper issue is thepersonnel they chose, the men
who were corrupt and theyallowed to get in there, the sec
meetings, things like that.
Like, when you look back on onon the two of them, has your
opinion changed at all?
Speaker 2 (58:59):
yeah, I think it's probably similar to to the way
you've just expressed it there.
Um, I, I have a great fondnessfor pope benedict the 16th and
in fact find his written workphenomenal, phenomenal, um, a
great canon and, uh, and in away that I don't with pope
francis, what he's produced.
Um, and j too, he was mychildhood Pope, you know, the
(59:22):
young, the people's Pope, theyoung people's Pope, and so it
was very much.
I was just coming of age, asBishop Barron always talks about
.
I was coming of age with thePope Francis, with Pope John
Paul II, but it's a bit like.
It's a bit like kids who growup and realise you know, mummy
and daddy, you know, were, yeah,and so there's a bit of that
(59:45):
now and that's a shame, but Ithink, but because there are
problems and to pretend thereweren't is disingenuous, but
that would probably be the caseif we were able to look through
the centuries, from St Peter Imean, st Peter wasn't chosen for
no reason.
You know, this is, this is SaintPeter who, you know, you can't
help but love, because he's sohuman, because he's flawed,
(01:00:08):
because he messes up, but whathe doesn't do which Judas did,
did is is reject that mercy,reject that love, and say I'm,
I'm not going to accept it.
So he's able to say I messed up.
And here I am, and I think wehave to not expect, not hold our
popes to that level ofperfection.
(01:00:32):
So in this very specificsituation, under very specific
circumstances, there's papalinfallibility, but that's not
the same.
And we know that although Ithink this is a misperception
about the church, that that theyare impeccable, impeccability
that these guys are perfect,somehow made godlike.
So, yeah, it's sad to find outthat popes that we respect and
(01:00:55):
love had messed up in some ofthe ways that that Francis has.
But then again, they're,they're, they're men, they're
like you and me.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
We're sinners and if anyone was going to scrutinize
us, they, they'd be saying yeah,uh, pope Benedict's uh Jesus of
Nazareth series, especially theone on Holy Week, was such an
amazing book for me in myconversion.
I remember reading that duringmy reversion, coming back to the
(01:01:26):
church, and it is amazing tosee just the stark contrast
between the way he handledthings and just what we've dealt
with for the past 12 years.
But, man, I think that the nextfew weeks are going to be very
exciting.
I think this is the Catholic.
(01:01:47):
You know it comes around veryrarely, but we're coming up on.
One of the most exciting eventsin the life of a Catholic is
seeing the election of a newpope.
I think this one is going to bedifferent from any other we've
ever seen.
I think they're in first, inpart just because when I saw the
video of cardinal um burke andcardinal sarah walking together,
(01:02:10):
yeah, and I saw the response ofcardinal zen, what I, what I
thought immediately was okay,these men are going to go into
this one not nearly as naive asthey went into the last one,
because after John Paul II andBenedict, I think even the
conservative cardinals had thistrust in God that, no matter who
the Pope is, you're not goingto get anything.
(01:02:32):
You'll get something, and theyprobably didn't know much about
Jorge Bergoglio, but on this onegoing in, I think those
conservative bishops are muchmore aware of the damage that
can be caused.
So there might be a little moreanimosity in this council than
this conclave than there everwas before.
Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yeah, I think you're right.
And you know, nothing is asMark was saying yesterday
whether we like it or not,whether we found it helpful or
not, god had him as our Pope forthe past 12 years.
We don't know, we can't see.
You know the church thinks incenturies.
(01:03:12):
We've got this finite littletime to just try our hardest to
become saints.
You know really.
And that's something, again,again, we don't hear often
enough uh, that's our telos.
Our telos is to become a saint.
It's not some weird thing forjoan of arc or some freak who
who, you know, is not like therest of us.
(01:03:34):
That's for us, and that's whatwe have to focus on is our own
personal growth, spiritualspiritual growth and our own
personal sanctity.
So, yeah, you're right, thoughit's a different time.
Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Yeah, I think this one's going to get a little
hectic, so we'll see how it goes.
But yeah, you're right aboutespecially that under Francis,
as bad as things were and wewere constantly worried, are we
going to lose our mass?
None of us were prevented, inthe West at least, from becoming
saints.
I mean, they dealt with atotally different thing where
they're under Islam's tyrannicalrule.
(01:04:08):
But for us the complaining wasprobably the worst thing we did,
because it's like accept thecross God gives you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
There's nothing wrong with it.
I think ambiguity that leadspeople into sin is something to
be called out, not becausecatherine bennett's such a
genius or anthony is such agenius or mark, but because
that's we do have a uh, you know, a duty, just, and a
responsibility to say what'strue.
We have to truth.
We don't go along with lies,and especially lies that draw
(01:04:42):
people into sin.
And so, for example, I wasteaching 10 years ago when Pope
Francis said who am I to judge?
Now, I know it's not thatsimple.
You know people say but theydidn't mean this, but this is
how it was, this is how it wasreceived by the world.
So we then have a duty, becausewe have young people coming up
and saying hey, guess what?
In the playground, pope Francissays it's fine to be gay.
(01:05:03):
And you just think, well, whatam I going to do?
Ignore that?
No, we have to.
We have to be as lay Catholics,as catechists and as people
trying to help form young people.
We have to deal with that andwe have to say what's true,
especially in this age where youknow social media and sound so
(01:05:23):
much information just beingpoured out on people.
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
I think these conversations have been
therapeutic for me too.
Um, because in my personal lifeit's not like I'm surrounded in
a catholic culture with othercatholics, you know.
It's like I mean I have mysiblings that take the faith.
So I mean, out of nine of us, Ihave eight siblings.
Out of nine of us, I have eightsiblings.
Out of all of us, there's threethat go to mass.
It's like.
So you know, other than mychildren, my wife and those
(01:05:48):
siblings, I'm not surrounded byCatholics.
So getting on and having theseconversations with my Catholic
friend from England, they'rekind of therapeutic for me.
They help me to just realize,ok, we're not alone in this guys
, there are other people whobelieve the Catholic faith and
are experiencing some of thesame hardships as everybody else
.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Yeah, yeah, and me too.
I'm surrounded by people in myown family, my family, are Irish
, irish Catholics.
Now, anyone who knows anythingabout Ireland and the path it's
going down is that my generationhave all fallen.
You know, I'm one of 30something cousins and I think
I'm the only practicing Catholic, faithful Catholic, in the
(01:06:27):
whole family.
And that's such a tragedybecause you know my.
I remember my grandmother, mygrandfather.
They were serious Catholics.
My mother, who'd be 90 now she,she died um, loved her faith,
loved Christ.
Thank God she left me such agreat um.
You know she was such a goodrole model but also a great
legacy of of her.
She wrote a lot and sheactually recorded, when she knew
(01:06:49):
she was dying, some, some ofher words, and so she's been a
great model to me.
But but the family at large isjust that the faith has been
decimated, absolutely decimated,and you kind of think.
You kind of think I don't knowhow we can just point and blame
them because they've.
You know, it hasn't been easyin ireland ireland is under such
(01:07:10):
a propagandistic assault.
Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
It's like you just had that movie come out with the
guy from peaky blinders or itwas a show or a movie or
something talking about how thenuns were abusing the children.
They're just trying to destroywhatever remnant of faith is
left in that country becauseIreland was Catholic Ireland,
they were like the last ones tofall with abortion and all these
(01:07:36):
things, and they're just undersuch assault.
Man I, because I'm my mother'sirish, my dad's catholic, so
it's you know.
I mean, it's the same thing.
Like you, look at my extendedfamily and you saw this
beautiful catholic foundationjust get decimated over the past
few decades.
Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
It's crazy but you know we talked about saints.
Listen, god is going to raiseup the saints that are needed at
this time.
It's always been the case.
He will raise up the exactsaint needed for the particular
problems that we are in now, andthat saint could be you, that
saint could be me.
We're all called to that, soour response should be yes.
(01:08:15):
Yes, we have righteous anger,yes, there are things that are
confusing, but let's focus onwhat, because the temptation, of
course, is to is to save theworld, is to champion
environmentalism, is to stop thewar, is to have a banner and be
an activist.
We're not called to beactivists, we're called to be
faithful, and it's the simplesaints and martyrs who are
(01:08:38):
faithful who have that impact.
It's not by walking around witha placard and petitioning
politicians or whatever.
Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
No, it's living out your vocation right.
If you're a mother, be a goodmother and wife.
If you're a father, be a goodfather and husband.
If you're a child, be obedientto your parents.
Like, live out your vocationthe best you can and, uh, that
that really, it really is theway to heaven.
It's like I mean marriageespecially.
I've me and my wife talk aboutit all the time, just like how
(01:09:12):
you really see, how thesacraments do bring you to
heaven, especially in thesacrament of marriage, like you
two are getting each other toheaven, whether you, whether you
have a intention or not.
If it's you, oh, man, we'regoing to have to do another show
because I want to get into your, I want to get into your story
(01:09:32):
about your mom, because it wassuch a touching story and it led
to your reversion, and we'regoing to have to do another
episode.
But well, what I'll do is, man,I'm going to have to.
Maybe the week that the nextpope is elected, I'll take
another day off and we'll setsomething else up again, because
there's so much more we couldget into.
But, catherine, this wasamazing.
(01:09:55):
Thank you for being brave,thank you for doing what you do
and, man, just keep dealing withthe onslaught.
Don't let anybody's onlinecomments bother you.
It really is nothing.
Turn off twitter and you'refine.
So I I admire you for yourcourage.
This was this is fun to dothank you, that's really kind.
Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Any courage I have, uh is by god's grace, you know
really.
So, um, I'm, I'm glad he has meand I I'll do what, you know,
whatever he asks of me, whateverthat is.
And just thank you for yourprayers.
You've been really you've beenreally kind, anthony, and really
supportive, and I know you'vebeen praying for us and me
especially following that.
Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
So, um, yeah, I know you're a lot of misogynist
anthony, but I hate you folks.
There's only a few Catholicshows I watch.
You guys are always.
Anytime I see something new popup from you guys, I always
watch.
It's funny how my taste haschanged and I used to enjoy like
the one man monologue or theone person monologue and now I
(01:10:57):
just enjoy conversations.
I love seeing like peoplebouncing off of each other.
I just find it easier to tolisten to and it's not all just
everybody saying the same thingand you know, there is a little
bit of a differing opinion andso I think you guys are a great
combination over there.
So give Gavin my best.
He's the only one that I didnot speak to today and I'll have
to set something up with him atanother date.
Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Yeah, I'll have to set something up with him at
another date.
Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Yeah, I know you've spoken to him before.
Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Oh yeah, I've had him on again.
Yeah, that's really kind of you.
Thank you, anthony, and I hopeyou'll come on Catholic
Unscripted.
Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
We'll try and get that scheduled and try to figure
that out.
But all right, we'll see youguys.
I will see you guys at eighto'clock tonight.
If you're not subscribed, gosubscribe to Catholic Unscripted
Thanks.
Thank you.
Sancte, sancte, amare morti et gradas nos In tes vera
verum.
Okay, welcome Catherine Bennettfrom Catholic Unscripted.
(00:34):
Catherine, this is my thirdstream of the day.
So I was on with Joe McLeanthis morning on his show, then I
interviewed Mark and MichaelHichborn at 10.
And now you're my third, butyou're the interview I've been
looking forward to the mosttoday.
You and I had met at theCatholic Identity Conference.
I wasn't like I had no ideawhat to expect when you gave
(00:57):
your talk and you came out thegate.
Hilarious, which I've said manytimes.
Women aren't funny.
You were very funny, which I'vesaid many times, women aren't
funny.
You were very funny.
I was like surprisingly, I was.
I was really surprised by howhard you spoke against feminism
(01:17):
in general and you told a reallytouching story about your
mother and I was you and I hadspoke after I was like I would
love to get you on for aone-on-one.
My wife is also very excitedfor this conversation, so
welcome thank you, thanks forhaving me on yeah.
so, um, you and I had reachedout to one.
Well, actually I found thisinteresting.
(01:38):
You had reached out to me, um,a little after the election and
and I'm I wasn't sure why youknew you'd receive a friendly
response in it.
But you had asked me hey, howare you feeling about all the
Trump stuff?
And I said, to be honest, I'm alittle cautious about it.
I feel like everybody's justbeing swept up in this wave and
(02:01):
my worry is that everybodybecause it's Trump doing it the
same things we were worriedabout under the previous
administration, now that Trumpis doing it, we're all going rah
, rah, maga, you know, and what?
What made you feel comfortableenough to even ask me that?
Because most people like freakout if you don't go along with
the MAGA wagon.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I don't know really, anthony, and maybe let's say
there's some providence at playand and just some discernment.
Say there's some providence atplay and just some discernment.
But I, like you and so manypeople I think, have just felt
so battered by the progressiveagenda, the madness around
transgender ideology, what'shappening in schools, the
(02:38):
indoctrination and the liesgoing to our children, the
untrammeled and unlimitedimmigration with which
apparently cannot be spokenabout, the suppression of speech
, and I think we've been sobattered by that that, you know,
in the beginning I too was likeseeing what Trump was saying
and the kind of moves he wasmaking.
(02:59):
It felt like coming up for air,you know.
It's like, oh, at last.
You know.
And I think I noticed quiteearly on that there was a danger
in my own instinct to to, toleap to anything that wasn't
what we'd been given, what we'dbeen fed, and at that point I
started to realize that I wasbeing drawn too much by the
(03:21):
political and, and there was adanger that I was taking my eyes
off Christ and his church, holyMother Church, and I thought,
if we're ever looking foranswers outside of the church,
you know, and the guidance thatwe've been given in the
tradition there, then I think weneed to be worried.
And then that was the kind ofinstinct and I don't know.
So, first of all, we're, we'refriends and you're over there in
(03:42):
the US, I'm in the UK, so tosome extent we're just observing
from afar, although ourcountries clearly have this,
this, their allies, um, and weknow that what happens over
there, it has an impact here.
But so, first of all, it wasjust for the fact that you, you
know, you're one of one of thepeople I know over there who it
affects more directly, and justtrusting your judgment and and
(04:05):
thought I'd sort of sound youout on where you were.
So that began, I think, our ustalking about this and and
recognizing that maybe all wasnot as ideal as it might have
seemed.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, it's, it's this .
Look, I almost, it almost feelslike the the trans stuff was
like a false flag, like it wasso preposterous that like nobody
liked it, and it was likethey're forcing this stuff down
our throat, that the guy thatcomes in and rescues us from
that you want.
Your instinct is to go.
Finally we have a hero.
(04:36):
But it is dangerous when it'ssuch an easy low hanging fruit
thing, that to thing that tojust get people to go.
Oh, they're not trying to putmy son in a dress anymore.
I guess we've won.
It's like that's not winning,you know.
It's like okay, so this slightlike, exactly as you described.
(04:57):
It's like, oh, they let us comeup for air a bit, which is
probably, you know, it wasalmost like a pressure release
valve in that.
You know, it was almost like apressure release valve in that
and, um, I but I find, uh, thecatholics especially that just
go along with everything trumpis doing are kind of swept up in
a political movement and it'slike some of the things it feels
(05:17):
like like now conservatives arefor electric cars because of
elon.
Now like, uh, they'retrumpeting this real ID thing
because of immigration, butmeanwhile it looks like a step
towards digital ID down the road, all these things that we would
have lost our minds under Bidendoing.
Well, because Trump is doing it,it's okay, and I feel like
(05:38):
Thomas Massey in our country isprobably one of the only people
speaking out clearly about someof the dangers of this stuff.
All the stuff Elon found inDoge, it's like, oh, he found
all this waste, fraud and abuse,but yet they went and passed
the same budget to keep fundingthese.
I don't know.
It all just seems like we'rebeing lulled in to accept the
very things we were very worriedabout before.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But because it's on the Trump, we're going to go for
it yeah, I mean that that Dogestuff worried me because I
thought like let's look a littlebit at what we're doing.
We are celebrating, we arejoyful, we are jumping up and
down and going ha-ha, you gotfound out, you got found out,
look at this waste.
And I thought, well, hold up,we are all vulnerable to messing
(06:23):
up to.
You know, do we really wantsuch a society of intense
surveillance and this, this kindof?
You know it's like, it's likesetting up of, of justice, of
God.
You know it's like kind of this, I will be your, your final
judge and you just think, well,hang on.
There's no doubt that there wasawful overspend and wastage and
(06:47):
it's embarrassing, I mean, someof it's laughable.
You know, going to Afghanistanand and and teaching them about.
Dushanbe's toilet or somethingyou know, seriously, it was
hilarious, but but there's,there was also in the back of my
mind something that that, likeyou said, the transhumanism
stuff, the digital ID stuff, thestuff coming from Musk, I've
(07:07):
got, you know, even just thatdark MAGA stuff.
What's that about?
That's not nothing in terms ofsymbolism, this dark MAGA, you
know that's.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
The way it really like made me start thinking
deeply was when I tried to talkto my father about this, and my
father's an older guy.
He's, and he's almost I thinkhe's 70, now 69 and just he
started talking about Elon likehe was this amazing guy, the
guy's laying down all of it.
You know he's riskingeverything for the country and
I'm like man, elon is atranshumanist like this guy.
(07:41):
He everybody thinks he boughtTwitter for some altruistic
reason for free speech.
No, he didn't.
He wanted our data.
Like, and Twitter is one ofthose platforms where you put
your every thought out on and itit's like such a deep insight
into the human psyche.
It seems like he's trying toreally like get into our brains.
(08:01):
He worries me a lot, elon.
Like get into our brains, heworries me a lot, elon.
And somebody had uh, somebodyhad.
Oh, it was when trump put thethe gaza video out and in the
video there was like goldenstatues of trump and stuff like
that and just looking from theoutside, you know that people
(08:22):
talk about oh, the antichristwill be this person and
everybody thought it was goingto be somebody on the left and
I'm like I've never seen worshipof a person like I have with
Trump, like if anybody in ourmodern world fits the
description.
It seems like Trump to me.
They're building golden statuesto him and Elon is this John
the Baptist figure paving theway for him through Doge.
(08:43):
I'm not saying he actually isthe Antichrist, it's just I've
never seen that pattern lay outquite like I have with Elon and
Trump, and it's scary.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, it's weird.
I mean whatever you think it'sweird.
But it's also strange howonline we are, how manufactured
everything is, how much of anartificial storm is being
whipped up around us and we'rebeing drawn into it even deeper
with with all of this, you know,you think about.
You think about Elon's sayingOK, for years we've been told
(09:16):
the planet's overpopulated, weneed to depopulate or we need to
have birth control and we needto so.
So that's obviously a terriblething to to put limits on
people's um, you know, havinghaving babies and to put limits
on life and to encouragesterility.
That's a bad thing.
But Elon doesn't take the view.
Well, what's the right view isto is to be in a loving marriage
(09:40):
and to be fertile and for thislove to be the, you know, the
mirror of the trinity.
It's just great.
He's not against that.
But in his response is weshould have babies.
There should be more babies.
It doesn't matter who we're.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
You know all different women and it's 12 kids
, six baby mamas in vitro, allthat I'm not even, I'm not even
making comment on his own life.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That's his own business.
But but to think that hisresponse, which is, you know,
it's against the wrong thingthis way, but because it's also
swinging to the wrong thing thisway, doesn't make it right,
it's still a, it's still anappalling response that we just
need to, we need to be havingmore kids any which way you want
, guys, you know I, we all knowthat, uh, gay people who have
(10:26):
bought babies, who have usedsurrogates, who have, who have
deprived them of a mother, thisis a great evil.
Ivf is a great evil.
Embryos destroyed and frozen,and and these are human persons,
this is a great evil.
If we can't call that outbecause they are not woke, then
(10:46):
we've got a problem it's?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
it's interesting because somebody put out a tweet
today about trump offering fivethousand dollars to new mothers
and it's like, if you don't, ifyou don't um package that in
five thousand dollars to newmothers who are in a committed
married relationship between aman and a woman, you're talking
about just throwing tons ofmoney at the baby mamas who got
(11:10):
all these different baby dads.
You're encouraging promiscuityand people to just have children
with whoever and it'll lead tothe destruction of the family if
not put in the right context,and that's the pattern, isn't it
?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Destroy the family, destroy the nation, and that's
the pattern, isn't it?
Destroy the family, destroy thenation and we?
It's destroy hierarchy, destroythe hierarchy in the church,
destroy authority, flatteneverything out.
And that's this modernistproject, this post-enlightenment
rationalistic, modernist,brutalist.
And that is why we're seeing areturn to tradition in the
(11:45):
church.
That's why people are beingdrawn to the traditional liturgy
.
It's because actually the humanperson recognises.
It might not be intelligible,you might not be able to say why
, but that's a modern ideaanyway, to be able to explain
everything.
It's more of a recognition ofwho we are and that mystery,
that liturgy, it it places usrightly, uh, before our lord,
(12:12):
humbly, in all humility, beforeour lord.
It we're not walking in like,hey, you know, yeah, god, you
and me, mate, we're one, we'relevel, it's yeah, and we need
that, and actually we need that.
It's like children, childrenwho you say I love you so much,
I'm gonna let you do what youwant.
Just wander in the road, justgo and put your hands in the
fire.
That's not love, what?
(12:33):
Let you do what you want, as ifwe're the best judge of what,
of what we need, our creationthe interest.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
So that it's really interesting that you even
mentioned the liturgy, becausewe see the ancient liturgy is
the foundation for Christendom.
Like if you go back you seethat liturgy was the tradition
that was passed down by theapostles and it is what converts
the pagan world.
So to have what has happenedover the last 60 years kind of
(13:28):
just crash down on society andthen have the liturgy changed as
well to where it used to be thepriest facing the altar and god
before all things like all ofthat plays into this whole
misunderstanding of the humanperson and it starts to me I
think you can't get back tofixing anything unless we do fix
the liturgy, which I think iswhy everybody is drawn to the
ancient liturgy is kind ofintuitive yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
I mean, this is nature, try as you might what is
true, you can try.
And this is where I think wemust have hope, because you will
always fail.
If it's not the perennial truth, it will fail.
Whether it fails in ourlifetime or not, I don't know,
and in a sense I don't know howmuch we should care, because we
have to focus on our ownsanctity, on our own children
(14:06):
and helping them to become thesaints that they've been created
to be.
But I think you're right.
Any degradation in the church tothe extent that there has been,
I mean actually no, the churchis divine.
So so let's, let's.
It's both human and divine, weknow that.
But but any kind of slippage orcompromise is going to impact
(14:26):
the world.
It's, of course it is.
It's going to impact society,it's going to impact our culture
.
They're not.
You can't just take it out andsay, oh, the church is just a
separate thing, and then theworld?
No, the church is the center,it's the anchor.
And around this you know thisit leads, it should lead, it
shouldn't follow the world whenI so I had gone to italy.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
It was the first time I ever left america.
I went to italy in december andevery single city we went to is
the cathedral, was the highpoint, and then you had
everything kind of built aroundthe cathedral.
Now in america, everything isso lopsided.
It's our tallest building wasthe trade center.
It's like this monument tomoney.
It shows shows where our idolsare right, Cause everything is
(15:09):
focused on money in America.
It's a.
It's a strange city to cut Like.
I live in New York.
You come to New York and youjust see these huge monuments
built to money.
And when I went to Italy, it'syou saw why that Christian
civilization endured for as longas it did.
It was because they always putgod first.
(15:30):
It was the highest point andthey had a symbolic view of the
world.
They knew whatever you made,the highest was the thing you
looked up toward.
Where our modern culture isjust the things that we put at
the highest order is justcompletely upside down.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, and people need , people really need guidance,
and that must come from thechurch.
Mark and I were talking justyesterday in, you know,
following the death of PopeFrancis, that the world looks at
you know, pope Francis and hispontificate, with these
horizontal, worldly eyes, whichsays what a great guy.
You know, he's so simple, hewore simple white robes, he
didn't even stay in the papalpalace, he had simple black
(16:11):
shoes and he's in a fia uno orwhatever.
And isn't that great.
According to what judgment?
According to to the way youjudge any bloke on the street,
this leveling, levelling thatpeople say sell all the art,
sell all the buildings theCatholic Church could pay for
all the poor and to lift peopleout of poverty.
(16:31):
And you know, as if this hasn'tbeen dealt with in scripture,
as if this isn't right there inthe inerrant word of God when
Judas says no, don't waste thatoil on Jesus, sell it and give
the money to the poor.
You know, pope Benedict dealswith this in Jesus of Nazareth,
in the first book, where he goesthrough that exact point.
(16:54):
He says the people loveBarabbas.
We want Barabbas, we wantBarabbas.
He was set up as a kind ofalter ego to Jesus and he was
worldly.
What's he going to offer you?
He's going to be a fighter forthe kingdom and for everything
worldly.
And what do the people choose?
They choose Barabbas, and PopeBenedict deals with that so well
(17:16):
and he says would we chooseBarabbas again today?
Would we choose this humble man,jesus, no would we choose this
Absolutely?
Speaker 1 (17:26):
We would humble man Jesus.
No, we would choose Barabbas.
Barabbas means son of thefather.
It's like Bar Abba means son ofthe father and um, yeah, we're.
We're constantly looking for afalse Messiah, which is what I
kind of see in Trump, right,like you think about.
Okay, so yes, I saw a clip fromthe view earlier where they're
like Pope Francis was the mostJesus-like pope ever and I
(17:48):
remember the red shoes thatBenedict wore and everybody was
like his red shoes.
It's like Benedict was trying tobring the kingdom to earth and
people really like to understandwhat the kingdom on earth, like
the gospel, is so linked to.
When Jesus goes throughout thegospel he says repent, for the
(18:09):
kingdom of heaven is at hand andwhat happens is heaven
colonizes earth.
That's what actually happens.
You see, that's what ourcathedrals are.
You're in the country with amonarchy, so for Americans it
might be something they miss,but when you go into a grand
cathedral, you are a peasantbeing welcomed into the kingdom.
(18:29):
It's like you would never beinvited to the coronation of
King Charles, but you can walkinto the coronation of the king
of the universe by going into acathedral.
You go in and you're in theheavenly kingdom and you should
be meditating upon the kingdomof heaven when you go into these
cathedrals yeah, it's like youwant to sell all that.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Who to what?
For who does this belong to?
This belongs to the, the, thesimplest peasant, the prostitute
on the street.
This, this beautifularchitecture, this beautiful art
.
It belongs to us.
Who you're going to sell it to?
Some private interest group,some, some of the highest bidder
, so that they can do what withit, turn it into a disco?
It's done, yeah, which theyhave done in the UK, where we're
(19:13):
all obviously our churches werestolen.
We want them back.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
It's, but it's happening.
It's happening everywhere,right?
So you had even in Albany, newyork, in my state, they gave the
cathedral away to muslims.
It's like there was a.
There was a traditional groupwho wanted to buy it and they
said no and they gave it tomuslims, because this whole um
(19:39):
lurching towards ecumenism issuch a bizarre thing that the
hierarchy is doing.
I caught it with cardinal dolan.
This lent was like I don't knowwhy he does it every year.
I don't know why this year irkedme talking about ramen he's
eating, cooking, talking aboutfasting, it's like he's, he's
pretty, uh, he's pretty funny,cardinal dolan, but I I spoke
(20:01):
about him this morning on joemclean's show.
Um, I don't know if rob'scoming in, I see he's in there,
but Rob, if you're going to comein, pop on different.
Joe McLean was talking aboutDolan this morning because he's
my archbishop, technically, likeI'm in the diocese next to him
and he was the first bishop toallow, like a gay flag inside
(20:24):
the St Paddy's Day parade.
But then, like two weeks later,he was in my diocese and he and
he confirmed my daughter in theold rite.
So it's like he's, he's just astrange character, cardinal
Dolan, but this year during Lent, he's eating that cookie and
he's talking about our, ourMuslim brothers and Ramadan.
And I was like man, these guyscan't talk about the Christian
(20:44):
faith without mentioning, youknow, the Jewish Passover or
Muslim Ramadan.
I wonder who they're, evenpastors for it's.
It's?
We really live in such bizarretimes now.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, and are these people coming in?
Are they giving up their ways?
Are they converting toCatholicism?
Because you do that Half thetime?
I just don't think they evenrespect respect because they see
it's transparency and say, well, you're not standing for what
you actually are.
I was in an AA van, which is aroad recovery vehicle over here,
when I broke down and the guydriving was a Muslim and we got
talking and I was telling himwhat I do and he said you know,
(21:18):
I don't even know what the UK is.
Is it a Christian country?
I don't know why you lot seemto be really ashamed of your,
your own culture, your owncountry, your own Christianity,
and I thought this is a Muslimtelling me he thinks that's not
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
It's very strange that self-hatred that Christians
seem to have at this point,especially in the hierarchy.
It's bizarre.
Yeah, you had.
You had actually mentioned inthe Green Room that.
You said it was anecdotal, butyou think that there's some
Muslims having dreams of Jesusand talking about pizza ball.
What was that?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Well, I don't know, it is anecdotal, but I've heard
of as many people watching willhave done that a muslims are
converting and they are havingvisions and dreams.
And some have spoken about um.
They see pizza ballers as pope,you know.
A few have have kind of saidthis is what they see.
(22:18):
What to make of that?
I have no idea, we were sayingwhat a crazy time we're living
in.
And god you know, it's in god'shands, but well, you.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Well, you just said.
You just said, like, are peopleeven coming in when they, when
the hierarchy starts sayingthese messages?
Right, and I saw on the viewsonny hostin's.
Like you know, pope, I'vealways struggled with my
catholicism.
Until pope francis comes alongand it's like, okay, but did you
go back to mass?
No, you just like that you'renot embarrassed to tell your
(22:51):
liberal friends you're Catholicnow because the Pope is over
there leading the world to thinkthat we now bless gay unions.
I don't know who gets convertedby this craziness.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
No, no, I know it's madness, isn't it?
I'm slightly familiar with theview and I know you have to
watch it for work, anthony, andotherwise I would have no
interest, but they just seemlike a.
I mean, we've got a similarthing.
I think it's loose women.
It's a bunch of women, rightwho, who sit around and sort of
talk about putting the world torights.
(23:20):
Yeah, I saw that WhoopiGoldberg's involved, isn't she?
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, it's like the Whoopi goldberg.
Uh, there's a couple other headand peckers she went to meet
pope francis, didn't she?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
yeah, he gave her an audience, not so much cardinal
zen, but whoopi goldberg.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah well before before we jump over the other
side.
What, what are your?
What are your feelings on thisconclave coming up like
everybody keeps saying the samenames over and over.
There's a good chance it'll besomebody we had never heard of,
who wasn't in the public eye,because things are so public now
and there's so many interviewsand social media posts of
(23:58):
different cardinals sayingthings.
I think there is a good chancewe'll get somebody we'd never
heard of before, because thefear of bringing somebody who is
well known and we'll be able tojust go through all of their
stuff immediately, like this,this, this conclave, I don't
know.
I see chaos coming in thechurch.
How are you feeling about it?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, I'm similar.
I think Mark said yesterdayit's a month game, trying to
predict anything, because youjust never know, and you know we
can have people that we mightprefer um, but as you say, the,
it's likely to be somebody wetotally out left field.
That we didn't, we didn'texpect.
I, I have no idea.
(24:37):
I'd like to see um, I'd like tosee a pope who speaks with
clarity, you know who guides theworld at a time that is, during
this confusion, and I thinkPope Francis was just too
ambiguous.
You know, in my view he was aPope loved by atheists and
(24:58):
secularists.
But, as we've said before, wheredid it take them?
The churches are hemorrhaging,you know there's there's footage
of women dancing around churchand they're empty.
And then where's?
Where's the good fruit?
Where?
Where is it growing?
Where it's more traditional?
And there's nothing.
You know that that's God movingin spite of everything.
(25:19):
And so I'd like to see a Pope.
Partly.
You know what, anthony, it'snot even coming out and saying
and teaching a lot of stuff.
I just think there was too much.
You know, pope Francis, therewas a time you just felt like
just just just shut up, justshut up Again.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
So just yeah, holding back.
It was an exhausting 12 yearsthat we had to endure.
It's like you think about, likeit was just exhausting, but
there, look I there were goodthings that came from it.
What?
But which I would just say?
Even the relationships I madeover the over the course of the
past 12 years, because we feltlike we were being attacked.
(26:06):
It kind of made us formcommunities where we could
endure that attack and meetother people of like-mindedness.
But my real hope for the nextpope is that I think there are
good people in these differentfragmented segments of the
church.
I feel like the church itself,the laity, are so fragmented
right now.
(26:26):
Everybody's got their cliqueand I would love to see a pope
come in and kind of unite theCatholics of goodwill and at
least if we could have somehealing amongst the brothers and
the sisters who actuallybelieve the faith, even if it's
not this ultra-traditionalistthat comes in and fixes
(26:46):
everything.
I think if there could be somehealing amongst each other,
where we're not calling somebodya popesplainer, I would love to
see some healing there, becauseI do think there's going to be
persecution down the road and ifat least we could link arms
with our brothers.
It would make things a loteasier to deal with.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yeah, I think that's really important, and exactly
what we need is that unity, andlet's hope we get it.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Watch this.
I'm actually flying.
Oh no, no, Saturday's thefuneral, isn't it?
Yeah, I'm going to be flying.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, and then?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
no fright, no Saturdays, the funeral, isn't it
?
Yeah, and then we'll, we'll see.
I don't know if I'll be in theU?
S when I'm there for for justover a week, so I don't know
what will happen during thattime.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
But we'll see.
So, all right, I do want totalk about some stuff we're not
going to talk about on YouTube.
I want to ask you about some ofthe pushback you're receiving
over there for your recentinterview so for anybody because
a lot of people were lookingforward to me talking about that
.
But I think we're going to dothat.
On the other side, I saw somepeople that I actually did
(27:55):
respect up until recently comingdown and attacking you guys and
I was like I just don'tunderstand why this person
couldn't make a phone call andthings like that.
So we're going to go over tothe other side and we're going
to talk about that.
It's going to take me a minuteto cut these other feeds off,
but anybody that is not a Localsmember go join our Locals.
That's where we have the moredifficult conversations, and
(28:17):
then Rob and I will beinterviewing Cale Zeldin tonight
at 8 pm.
Catherine Catherine's onCatholic Unscripted.
If you guys are not subscribedto Catholic Unscripted,
definitely head over there.
I'm typically we don't usuallyhave women on this show,
catherine, but I could not nottalk to you.
I had to have a conversationwith you.
(28:39):
My wife was very excited forthis one too.
She's been watching you fromafar, just saying how brave you
are, so I know she's excited forthis one too.
She's been watching you fromafar just saying how brave you
are, so I know she's excited forthis conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, you're very kind, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
All right, we're going to cut these other feeds
off.
We'll see you guys on the otherside.
Let me just say it's usuallyhave Rob here to do all this,
but when did he go?
He's working today.
So I took off of work today forI just thought I figured you
know how often do we get a youknow a death in the papacy and a
(29:13):
conclave coming up.
So I figured let me take a dayoff.
I went on Joe McLean's showthis morning.
It's been.
I just figured let me jam allthe people in that I don't
normally get to interviewbecause you're on a totally
different time zone than me.
It's either we did this or Ihave to do a Saturday show.
(29:36):
This was the best rest.
Let me just see I have one more.
I have to get rid of Just therumble.
Let's say, OK, that should beit.
We should still be on local, OK.
So one of the otherconversations you and I had was
(29:58):
so you were introduced to FatherMaudsley from the Catholic
Identity Conference yourself.
Right, I think that's where Ifirst found him.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Yeah, I suppose it would have been yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
And then you decided to interview him and I know you
guys got a ton of pushback onthat.
He's somebody where you're notgoing to control the
conversation.
He's going to say what he'sgoing to say.
So I did see in the firstmoment of coming out it was like
, oh okay, this is like a firehose.
(30:33):
We're just getting right intothis, I see.
But watching the pushback fromcertain segments, you guys are
definitely more respectable thanwe are.
So I had a conversation similarto yours with father Maudsley,
but I didn't really get muchpushback.
But just seeing what they, whatthey did to you I saw Deacon
(30:53):
Nick Donnelly came out hammeringagainst you guys.
I saw a jihad watch came outafter you.
What has that been like?
Just dealing with all thepushback.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Yeah, I spoke over on YouTube about how we're we're
living.
You know and I know this mightseem hypocritical because we run
a podcast but we're we'reliving in an in an online world,
and I think it's easy to be soswept up in a storm a
manufactured storm and and thinkit's real and let it touch your
real life.
(31:23):
And you have to walk your dogs,look in your kids eyes, eat
with them.
You know, you have to rememberthis is not because I think
that's what's.
I think that's kind of whatpeople want.
They want you to think this isreal, and so it was.
On the one hand, it was like itwas horrible, but on the other,
you see it for what it is.
(31:44):
I just think people revealthemselves.
I took the view that you justkeep a dignified silence, which
I did.
I didn't respond to positivethings or negative things.
I just thought, well, that'sbecause the problem is, isn't it
, anthony?
Is once you get into that, yourealize it's not really what
(32:05):
people want.
It's people.
Whatever you do is never goingto be good enough, because
they've decided they want toattack you, right?
So you think back to BlackLives Matter.
When George Floyd died, we hadthis thing where I mean I was
watching it like kind of from.
I've never been into socialmedia.
(32:26):
I only started with CatholicUnscripted.
I never got into Facebook.
I never got into Twitter.
It's all very recent for me.
Um, I avoided it, but I saw myolder kids and the kids from
school that they live in thisonline world and there were.
I couldn't believe what I wasseeing.
There were.
There was a day when apparently, you had to put a black square.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
I remember that.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And if you didn't, you're a racist.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And I was.
I was laughing, I was sayingare you serious?
You're, there were kids shakingwith fear because they didn't
put a black square on Instagram,and now they're racist.
And then you say, hang on, alllives matter, right.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
You racist, you're so racist.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
All lives.
Oh wow, I'm so sorry for myracism Like that's insanity.
That's the kind of insanitythat I am not going to buy into
or play, or play along with.
So once people start compellingyou and saying you've got to do
, and if you don't do this,you're complicit, you're a
racist I could see the samepatterns.
So we faced and also FatherMortley is Father Mortley.
(33:31):
What he says doesn'tnecessarily reflect what I
believe.
So it's just not fair to layall that at our door.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I think it's okay.
All we heard for the past fewyears was you shutting people
out of the conversation to letthe let the best idea win.
And the thing is, for me thiswas a conscience issue.
I like I really don't want totalk about this issue.
I don't.
It's.
What I saw happening was somehorrible things happening
(34:02):
between Gaza and Israel, andthen I saw a lot of Catholics
justifying, like the, the murderand slaughter of innocent
children and things like that,and finding ways to justify all
of that.
And that's what kind of made mestart thinking about this issue
a little bit.
And then I started thinkingabout it from a theological
point of view.
And how, like, what role do dothe Jews play in salvation
(34:26):
history?
And when you see in the oldTestament, so much of it is
about the covenant passing tothe Gentiles and the and the
Jews reaction to that, like I, Ikind of had to see that if, if
the Pharisees crucify Christ thefirst time, how do they not in
(34:47):
a theological sense andtypological sense, how are they
not going to be the same?
It should be the same thing inChrist's return right, like the
persecution of the church.
They're going to play some kindof a role in it, to play some
kind of a role in it.
So you know, I do think it'stricky with Father Maudsley when
(35:07):
he comes right out the gatetalking about the Holocaust and
things like that, because Idon't it kind of makes people
just go, I don't want to hearthis and they shut the
conversation down.
But that doesn't mean there'snot important things that he's
saying that Catholics are goingto need to grapple with.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, like you, I'm less interested and to some
extent don't even really know.
I don't have the time in mylife to be trawling through
endless videos.
I've read Father Morsley'sbooks.
I think they're very, veryinteresting books and very good
books, and I'll say that, and Ihappen to know him personally
and he's a good and kind friendas well.
But, as you say, to speaktheologically, spiritually,
(35:55):
typologically, that has to bedone.
We can't avoid that out of fear.
Now, I do understand that thisneeds to be, that we need to
speak prudently because, thoughwe might be speaking spiritually
and theologically, that may notbe how it's heard.
(36:18):
So I can understand that.
But to say it cannot bediscussed at all is problematic.
And what's interesting just topick up on your point about
Israel and Palestine is thatthis again we see this political
ideology, this politicalattachment.
So certainly over here, israelis a right wing cause,
(36:47):
supporting Israel is a rightwing cause, supporting as a
right-wing cause, supportingPalestine is a left-wing cause.
So if you've pinned your colorsto a right-wing cause and you
don't like the progressives andyou don't like the um, the
policies of the left, then youjust are a supporter of Israel
and Zionism and and what I?
I think that's problematic asCatholics.
That is problematic because wecan't.
It's like those people likeDave Rubin, great conservative
commentator, then bought babies.
(37:09):
As far as I know, that's badLike if we can't call out
because, because we like hisconservatism, our politics have
trumped our faith faith.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yep, I see it like it's just because there's some
crazy lunatics that take aposition doesn't mean they might
not have something right inwhat there's.
So, like you don't want to getlumped in with the lunatics or
some supporting Hamas, like Ikind of see it as there's no
good guy over there, there'sjust no good guy.
I'm not supporting Hamas, I.
What I do look at is someonelike Cardinal Pizzabala who
comes out and he's telling youabout the actual suffering on
the ground and the evils thatare being committed there.
(37:48):
And there's PalestinianChristians there.
This isn't a Jew versus Muslimthing.
There's Palestinian Christians.
They've all but wipedChristianity out of the Middle
East over the past few decades.
We're talking about thebirthplace of Christianity,
where Paul's on the road toDamascus and that's where he has
his conversion, and there's noChristians left in Iraq and
(38:12):
Afghanistan, anywhere, in allthese places that it used to
exist.
Now, the other thing about oneof the big things that stuck out
to me was even the idea ofcalling it the Holocaust, though
the implication of that is thatChristians sacrificed all Jews
as a burnt offering to God, andjust the fundamental fact that
(38:38):
we call it that, I think, shouldraise our alarm bells, because
there is one man, jesus Christ,who was sacrificed for our sins,
and it wasn't Jews as acollective, and that is what
gets pushed in this whole thing.
And then, if you speak heresyagainst that event, the reaction
to Father Mosley, instead ofpeople saying, okay, well, look,
this is what you're saying andthis is why it's not true, it's
(39:01):
this outrageous reaction to himand it's just accusing him of
the most horrific things,calling him a Nazi and this and
that, and it's like can you justaddress what he's saying
Because he might like you.
I can't just watch hundreds ofhours of videos on this topic.
I don't know what the correctanswer is, but I would like to
hear a reasoned response to thethings that he's saying and then
(39:24):
I'll make a decision on whetherhe's right or wrong on it.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
And I think that's very telling, isn't it?
And to some extent, I think,can people not see that what
you're doing is?
It's like giving grist to themill for people who, who see, if
you see someone saying, look,there's a real problem and the
problem is, let's say, the JewsRight.
(39:50):
And then he speaks about that,and then everyone who otherwise
is measured and calm says deleteit, shut him up.
You, you're terrible, you'reNazis, you're evil, you should
burn in hell.
Then suddenly, people who nevereven thought this was a thing
to pay attention to are sayingwhoa, hang on a minute.
What this is insane Like.
(40:10):
This response is insane.
We've had, we've had publicCatholics who individually, on a
personal level, we have beenfriends with, who we have
supported, who know full well,full well, anthony, that we are
not hateful people, that we donot wish death and destruction
(40:32):
on anyone, that we love andteach love and believe in the
gospel and want the Jews toconvert and pray for the Jews.
That's a good thing, that's aloving thing, that's not
something that we should beashamed to say.
But the response has beenunlike anything I have ever seen
and bear in mind on our podcast.
We are not shrinking violence,we talk about Islam and
(40:59):
immigration and the riots andthe government and the crackdown
on free speech and the abortionbuffer zone and transgenderism
and homosexuality and happilythere is flippantly sometimes
because we're unscripted, youknow, maybe even imprudently at
times homosexual infiltration inthe church and all this sort of
(41:20):
thing without anything otherthan some people saying you're
not very nice, you don't likegay people, which again is just
missing the point.
But on this, um, it's unlikeanything I have ever seen with
police reports people sayingcall this number to report these
people to the metropolitanpolice.
Report Catherine for hate crime, she needs to be arrested.
(41:43):
Bear in mind I didn't say Ididn't, I didn't say anything
Right, so, but I need to bearrested, I need to be put
behind bars for hate crime,because I spoke with Father
Morsi, ostensibly really aboutthe liturgy and, as you say, I
didn't want to be drawn intosomething and, as you say, I
(42:09):
didn't want to be drawn intosomething that I am just not
equipped and don't have theknowledge to be able to engage
in that kind of publicconversation about.
But I do think you've made agood point about the word
holocaust.
Let this holocaust is used inthe old testament for the
oblations in the temple,prefiguringuring then and
leading up to the sacrifice ofour Lord Jesus Christ.
The worst thing in history, thegreatest crime, the killing of
(42:31):
our Lord, and this sacrifice,this perfect love.
And then we've just you know,we're just here in the
resurrection, um, this, thisperfect offering of taking the
sins of the world take, takingsins into the tomb and um wiping
out sin and death and offeringus a eternal, eternal life.
(42:51):
That's the biggest thing.
The incarnation, the death andthe resurrection of our lord
jesus christ is the biggestthing, the most significant
thing, the thing that is mosttrue and most meaningful in
anyone's, any human person'slife.
So the the word holocaust isloaded with theological
significance and there's.
(43:13):
That's not to make any commentabout denying or saying there
wasn't, but the term shoah Ithink is, is one that is it
might be more appropriate to usewhen we're talking about those
events.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Yeah, look, and the thing is it's just the framing
of the way this discussionhappens.
First off, it is dangerous foryou to have these conversations
in England because we do knowthey will arrest people for
having conversations over there.
It's quite crazy, but, yeah,the reaction to it is completely
(43:47):
unhinged.
But the fact that I'll seepeople get more upset if you
even talk about this issue thanthey do about blasphemies
against our lady or our Lord isshocking to me.
It's like you'll seeProtestants say things like Mary
(44:08):
was just a vessel, like you'respeaking about the mother of God
in ways that are so degenerateand Catholics will think nothing
of it.
But then if you touch thisnarrative, like, do you part of
me?
Because you see someone likeDeacon Nick Donnelly, who I
liked, I've always liked, but Iwas just appalled.
(44:28):
It took a little bit of time,for you know our generation and
younger that are starting to saywait a minute, like why is this
(44:49):
one event so untouchable?
But everything else, like youcould comment on any event in
history, but this event for somereason just makes people lose
their minds and the reactionthat you get actually makes me
want to look deeper into it.
Like you said, like the factthat you get actually makes me
want to look deeper into it.
Like you said, like the factthat you're reacting like that
is making me say, wait a minute,maybe there's something more to
this yeah, it's, it's, it's areally interesting one.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
I, I, I don't, I don't know, um, I, I think
observing what's going on.
This is, you know, we need toobserve, we need to discern, we
need to keep praying, and I'mnot saying I have conclusions or
answers, but it's beenrevealing these last few days.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Well, I think that you were just.
You were just.
Even with that conversation Isaw it Like I don't.
I think you just wanted to havethe conversation and just hear
it, right.
I think you just wanted to havethe conversation and just hear
it, right.
You made no proclamation ofendorsement or anything like
that.
You were just willing to sitand have a conversation and hear
Father Maudsley out.
(46:09):
Now I just would like to seesomebody present a reasoned
argument against it Now, whetherwhether the there was actual
infiltration because peoplecaved to specific demands.
I don't think you can.
I think it's.
It'd be silly to say that themen who came from the council
like the council is in, youcannot separate the council from
World War II council, like thecouncil is in, you cannot
separate the council from WorldWar II.
And the fact that John Paul II,who was in Poland and witnessed
these events, had to getpermission from the communists
(46:30):
to even attend the council.
And then you have Benedict, whowas in Germany and he was
forced to join the Hitler Youth,like the fact that those two
men were the popes after thecouncil and after those events.
I think it's kind of like naiveto say that those things didn't
affect the church and thechurch's approach.
I think that that whole storyis why we have this ecumenical
(46:52):
outreach and this dialogue, andthe things that we're so worried
about in the church aredirectly a cause of the the
things that happened back inWorld War II.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah, I think.
So the term infiltration isreally loaded, and I think
that's part of the problem is ifpeople like you say,
irrespective of Father James'sintentions, if he says something
, and people can't go furtherthan that to hear anything of
value because they've alreadybeen put put off by that, then
(47:27):
that's a shame.
You know that that is a shame,but, but, but I, but I think
like we, I don't know how goodit is for our spiritual lives
anyway, but the enemy is alwaysat work.
You know the enemy is always atwork and the enemy will at work
.
You know the enemy is always atwork and the enemy will.
So people, people waving rainbowflags and wearing leather chaps
and going on trains and saying,you know, hey, gay pride and
(47:49):
everything, to some extent youlook at them and say, isn't that
awful?
But you also just think you are, god love you.
You know god love you.
You are such a vessel and avehicle for the enemy to do this
work.
And so, um, I may, I, I can seethat we, we want to say the
enemy is at work and and is hegoing to try and infiltrate the
(48:11):
church?
Is he going to try and disruptthe church?
Is he going to try and umdestroy the spotless bride of
christ, will he?
Speaker 1 (48:17):
do it.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
No, you know yeah, of course he's going to try that.
So how he tries that and withwhat people then to say that
can't be discussed again.
So I think what I foundinteresting is I was in news
studios the day that the Popedied, or, yeah, the morning he
(48:39):
died, and I was three hours in astudio in London doing some
rolling commentary for for anational broadcaster and in
between takes in the studio Ibumped into a fellow catholic
journalist and he went for me.
He went for me, he was shaking,shaking.
He doesn't know me other thanthrough um journalistic work
online.
But he and I, he attacked me and, um, the producers had to say
(49:06):
we need to separate you and putyou in another room.
They said this has neverhappened before.
And then he did his piece andhe did a good job and he came
out and I said oh, thank youthat that was a really good
interview, well done.
And he kind of didn't know whatto do then.
Because I thought if we respondwith, if someone's attacking us
and we respond angrily oraccusatory or violently, or you
(49:28):
know the these, all these piecesyou've said nick donnelly
jihadi, watch jules gomezattacking and saying you nazis,
if I just think the rightresponse is just love your enemy
just love your enemy.
I know they're trying to,they're trying to get a reaction
, and so the worst thing we cando is to even defend yourself.
(49:49):
I think you know, and I think Iwant to say let my body of work
speak for itself.
I've been writing as a Catholicjournalist for years.
I've been broadcasting, and youlook at my body of work, mark's
body of work, gavin's body ofwork, and you look at my body of
work, mark's body of work,gavin's body of work.
If you want to pick somethingout, take it's like you say OK,
let's talk about the issue, butdon't just attack the person
(50:10):
baselessly, which is what'shappening.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
You're also in an interesting spot because you
guys are a three person show, soyou know there's this way that
they want to link all three ofyou to every single idea.
(50:33):
And I had Mark on this morningand him and I disagreed on like
I feel like the trajectory thechurch is on and through
Salvation History to me, theevents that we're living through
right now, with even theelection of this next pope and
everything, it feels like likethe story is building to a
crescendo.
Like you know, we're coming tothe end of a story.
I know, I know, I know ummichael hitchborn thinks a
little more like I do.
It feels like we're coming tothe end of a story where I think
(50:56):
mark disagrees and he's like,well, no, it could take
centuries for this to work outand stuff, but there there's
disagreement there, but we stilllove one another and it's you
know you're allowed to have adiffering opinion from somebody
and you're allowed to have aconversation with somebody and
it doesn't mean all three of youhold the same opinions and you
know that's one of the downsidesto having more than one person
(51:16):
linked in your show, I think.
Speaker 2 (51:18):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love Gavin and Mark, we really
are the best of friends and, um,we, we've been through a lot
together but you know, we, weare our own people and we're
just lay Catholics, uh, with avoice.
We're not saying, you know, in asense we're not trying to point
to us, we're trying to point toChrist, always, and and Holy
(51:38):
Mother Church, um, but we dodisagree on things sometimes,
and, and mark, for example, andgavin disagree quite vehemently
about russia and ukraine, butwe've never, we've always said,
well, that that's okay, you can,you can have that out, we're
not going to stop you speakingum about that, even though you
(52:01):
may have a different point ofview, and we do have to balance
that and manage that.
But I think in that sense wehave a responsibility to be a
model, because if we'rescreaming at each other and
shouting at each other and adhominem attacking each other,
then what kind of model ofChristianity is that, when there
are people having the sameconversations in the church,
(52:21):
also about the Jewish question.
The church, you know, alsoabout the Jewish question, also
about Israel and Palestine, alsoabout Russia and Ukraine, also
about politics.
People in the church the worldover are having the same
conversation, so we have aresponsibility to model that
well, I think.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah yeah, relationships are hard.
So it's like if we, asChristians, can't love the
people God has put in our lives,it's going to be awfully hard
to love our enemies, right?
So I think I think we all Ireally do admire the way you've
handled the whole things.
I haven't seen you once lashout and try to defend yourself
or anything.
But I also think that you'recourageous and I think it was
(53:00):
think it was awesome that youbecause it was a difficult
conversation to have and youknow, I mean I got canceled from
a an event in February.
I was supposed to speak at adiocesan event and I had
somebody coming after merepeatedly accusing me of
antisemitism, of of chauvinismand misogyny, all this stuff.
(53:22):
And the diocese finally saidwe're going to cancel you, we
can't have you come.
And in that moment I said OK,what I learned is never agree to
do a diocesan event again,because if they get any kind of
pressure, they're going to cave.
But the other thing was Irealized if you just turn
Twitter off, you don't even knowanything's going on, like it's
really not real.
If you just turn twitter off,nothing's happening.
(53:44):
Go like you said kiss your kids, go for a walk.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
It's not the real world yeah, get in the real
world, yeah, and um, we I'mreally sorry to hear that, by
the way and and I think that's areal shame um, because your,
your voice is needed, yours androb's, uh, in, you know, in this
, in this, at this time, um,publicly, uh, but we've, we've
faced it too.
You know, we went to Irelandand there was an attempt to shut
(54:09):
us down.
We went to the north of Englandand there was a similar attempt
to shut us down and hatefulthings written about us, and
I've always taken the view look,same same about the Maudsley
interview.
I've taken the view look, I'mright, if I'm right with God, my
concern is getting toconfession, um, loving my family
, failing as I do, and goingback and asking, by God's grace,
(54:31):
to pick me up and to and tocontinue trying.
If I feel I'm right with God,then that's, that's my priority.
That's my priority.
I don't priority, I don't needto, I don't need to prove myself
to somebody saying but you are,aren't you?
Come on, if you don't sayanything, you must be complicit.
Well, that's what they'retelling me.
But you know, if God, you knowit's between me and God, right,
(54:57):
yeah?
Speaker 1 (54:58):
And I'm constantly asking God to like, if I'm wrong
, show me I'm wrong.
Like I don't want to doubledown on an incorrect position.
So it's like even even the wayI handled Francis, like I wasn't
I always had a hard time withanybody who was like 100 percent
sure in their conclusions aboutFrancis.
It's like he's an invalid popeor you know, the chair is vacant
(55:20):
or he's the greatest thingthat's ever walked the face of
the.
You know he's the greatest Popeever, the most.
It's like I think anybody thatdoubles down so hard in their
position on something like that,that is just unknowable.
Like we just we don't know,maybe down the line some future
conclave will say he was aninvaluable, you can't possibly
know.
So why put your, youreverything on this position?
(55:43):
That is just unknowable.
So I mean I remember prayingseveral times like God, if you
want me to just be obedient tothis Pope and do that like I'll
do whatever you want.
It's just there were so manywarning flags that came up and
so many times that somethingwould be so outlandish that I
said, okay, my approach is goingto be.
Just, it's still the church.
(56:03):
I don't know what's going tohappen.
I'm going to leave it to afuture Pope to make the
determination, and I'm justgoing to trust that when Jesus
said the gates of hell will notprevail, he meant it and he
knows what's going on, even if Idon't.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we don't put our.
It's interesting that, becauseyou don't put our stock in
things that are unknowable, butbut there are knowables as well
and on those we stand, and it'snot because it's my truth or
your truth, but it's becauseit's the truth.
And so we stand on what isknown and, in fact, um, the it,
(56:39):
it is under the, I say, thecurrent pontificate.
Pope Francis has died, ofcourse, and we're currently
without a pope.
We're all said evocantists, noweveryone, but the it's, in fact
, the opposite is true.
What we saw is quite a dogmaticand quite a tyrannical approach
(57:01):
to issues that were prudential.
You know, issues around how we,what's our attitude towards
recycling, for example, and netzero.
These are prudential issues.
These are, these are absolutetruths and it's outside the
purview of the church.
So to say well, well, popeFrancis has issued this and we
must do this.
Say well, well, pope francishas issued this and we must do
(57:27):
this, um, it's okay to say well,no on issues to do with life,
on conception, from, from onlife, from conception to natural
death.
That's an absolute.
So there are some things thatare absolute and some things
that are prudential, and I, andpeople over the past 12 years, I
think were were taking thoseprudential issues and saying but
your pope says this and this isan absolute, and so to say,
well, actually there's room forjudgment on that yeah again was
(57:51):
something that you were shouteddown for and they say, yeah, but
you don't say that aboutabortion.
See a bit, because that isn't,that is not a potential.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
How has your perception of john paul ii and
benedict changed over?
Because for me, I I talked thismorning with mark and michael
about this like I, I grew up inthe jp2 era.
Um, I was one of the probablyone of the people who was like
oh, he's a living saint.
During his pontificate it wasall about Mother Teresa and John
(58:25):
Paul II and Benedict was justlike a hero to me.
And then, under Francis, it'skind of like when I look back on
it, I still have a deepfondness for both of those men.
I still have quite a bit ofnostalgia for them, but I also
am like, oh man, there were alot of flaws there.
I mean even talking about theclimate change stuff.
Both of them were very proclimate change stuff.
(58:45):
But the deeper issue is thepersonnel they chose, the men
who were corrupt and theyallowed to get in there, the sec
meetings, things like that.
Like, when you look back on onon the two of them, has your
opinion changed at all?
Speaker 2 (58:59):
yeah, I think it's probably similar to to the way
you've just expressed it there.
Um, I, I have a great fondnessfor pope benedict the 16th and
in fact find his written workphenomenal, phenomenal, um, a
great canon and, uh, and in away that I don't with pope
francis, what he's produced.
Um, and j too, he was mychildhood Pope, you know, the
(59:22):
young, the people's Pope, theyoung people's Pope, and so it
was very much.
I was just coming of age, asBishop Barron always talks about
.
I was coming of age with thePope Francis, with Pope John
Paul II, but it's a bit like.
It's a bit like kids who growup and realise you know, mummy
and daddy, you know, were, yeah,and so there's a bit of that
(59:45):
now and that's a shame, but Ithink, but because there are
problems and to pretend thereweren't is disingenuous, but
that would probably be the caseif we were able to look through
the centuries, from St Peter Imean, st Peter wasn't chosen for
no reason.
You know, this is, this is SaintPeter who, you know, you can't
help but love, because he's sohuman, because he's flawed,
(01:00:08):
because he messes up, but whathe doesn't do which Judas did,
did is is reject that mercy,reject that love, and say I'm,
I'm not going to accept it.
So he's able to say I messed up.
And here I am, and I think wehave to not expect, not hold our
popes to that level ofperfection.
(01:00:32):
So in this very specificsituation, under very specific
circumstances, there's papalinfallibility, but that's not
the same.
And we know that although Ithink this is a misperception
about the church, that that theyare impeccable, impeccability
that these guys are perfect,somehow made godlike.
So, yeah, it's sad to find outthat popes that we respect and
(01:00:55):
love had messed up in some ofthe ways that that Francis has.
But then again, they're,they're, they're men, they're
like you and me.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
We're sinners and if anyone was going to scrutinize
us, they, they'd be saying yeah,uh, pope Benedict's uh Jesus of
Nazareth series, especially theone on Holy Week, was such an
amazing book for me in myconversion.
I remember reading that duringmy reversion, coming back to the
(01:01:26):
church, and it is amazing tosee just the stark contrast
between the way he handledthings and just what we've dealt
with for the past 12 years.
But, man, I think that the nextfew weeks are going to be very
exciting.
I think this is the Catholic.
(01:01:47):
You know it comes around veryrarely, but we're coming up on.
One of the most exciting eventsin the life of a Catholic is
seeing the election of a newpope.
I think this one is going to bedifferent from any other we've
ever seen.
I think they're in first, inpart just because when I saw the
video of cardinal um burke andcardinal sarah walking together,
(01:02:10):
yeah, and I saw the response ofcardinal zen, what I, what I
thought immediately was okay,these men are going to go into
this one not nearly as naive asthey went into the last one,
because after John Paul II andBenedict, I think even the
conservative cardinals had thistrust in God that, no matter who
the Pope is, you're not goingto get anything.
(01:02:32):
You'll get something, and theyprobably didn't know much about
Jorge Bergoglio, but on this onegoing in, I think those
conservative bishops are muchmore aware of the damage that
can be caused.
So there might be a little moreanimosity in this council than
this conclave than there everwas before.
Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Yeah, I think you're right.
And you know, nothing is asMark was saying yesterday
whether we like it or not,whether we found it helpful or
not, god had him as our Pope forthe past 12 years.
We don't know, we can't see.
You know the church thinks incenturies.
(01:03:12):
We've got this finite littletime to just try our hardest to
become saints.
You know really.
And that's something, again,again, we don't hear often
enough uh, that's our telos.
Our telos is to become a saint.
It's not some weird thing forjoan of arc or some freak who
who, you know, is not like therest of us.
(01:03:34):
That's for us, and that's whatwe have to focus on is our own
personal growth, spiritualspiritual growth and our own
personal sanctity.
So, yeah, you're right, thoughit's a different time.
Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Yeah, I think this one's going to get a little
hectic, so we'll see how it goes.
But yeah, you're right aboutespecially that under Francis,
as bad as things were and wewere constantly worried, are we
going to lose our mass?
None of us were prevented, inthe West at least, from becoming
saints.
I mean, they dealt with atotally different thing where
they're under Islam's tyrannicalrule.
(01:04:08):
But for us the complaining wasprobably the worst thing we did,
because it's like accept thecross God gives you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
There's nothing wrong with it.
I think ambiguity that leadspeople into sin is something to
be called out, not becausecatherine bennett's such a
genius or anthony is such agenius or mark, but because
that's we do have a uh, you know, a duty, just, and a
responsibility to say what'strue.
We have to truth.
We don't go along with lies,and especially lies that draw
(01:04:42):
people into sin.
And so, for example, I wasteaching 10 years ago when Pope
Francis said who am I to judge?
Now, I know it's not thatsimple.
You know people say but theydidn't mean this, but this is
how it was, this is how it wasreceived by the world.
So we then have a duty, becausewe have young people coming up
and saying hey, guess what?
In the playground, pope Francissays it's fine to be gay.
(01:05:03):
And you just think, well, whatam I going to do?
Ignore that?
No, we have to.
We have to be as lay Catholics,as catechists and as people
trying to help form young people.
We have to deal with that andwe have to say what's true,
especially in this age where youknow social media and sound so
(01:05:23):
much information just beingpoured out on people.
Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
I think these conversations have been
therapeutic for me too.
Um, because in my personal lifeit's not like I'm surrounded in
a catholic culture with othercatholics, you know.
It's like I mean I have mysiblings that take the faith.
So I mean, out of nine of us, Ihave eight siblings.
Out of nine of us, I have eightsiblings.
Out of all of us, there's threethat go to mass.
It's like.
So you know, other than mychildren, my wife and those
(01:05:48):
siblings, I'm not surrounded byCatholics.
So getting on and having theseconversations with my Catholic
friend from England, they'rekind of therapeutic for me.
They help me to just realize,ok, we're not alone in this guys
, there are other people whobelieve the Catholic faith and
are experiencing some of thesame hardships as everybody else
.
Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Yeah, yeah, and me too.
I'm surrounded by people in myown family, my family, are Irish
, irish Catholics.
Now, anyone who knows anythingabout Ireland and the path it's
going down is that my generationhave all fallen.
You know, I'm one of 30something cousins and I think
I'm the only practicing Catholic, faithful Catholic, in the
(01:06:27):
whole family.
And that's such a tragedybecause you know my.
I remember my grandmother, mygrandfather.
They were serious Catholics.
My mother, who'd be 90 now she,she died um, loved her faith,
loved Christ.
Thank God she left me such agreat um.
You know she was such a goodrole model but also a great
legacy of of her.
She wrote a lot and sheactually recorded, when she knew
(01:06:49):
she was dying, some, some ofher words, and so she's been a
great model to me.
But but the family at large isjust that the faith has been
decimated, absolutely decimated,and you kind of think.
You kind of think I don't knowhow we can just point and blame
them because they've.
You know, it hasn't been easyin ireland ireland is under such
(01:07:10):
a propagandistic assault.
Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
It's like you just had that movie come out with the
guy from peaky blinders or itwas a show or a movie or
something talking about how thenuns were abusing the children.
They're just trying to destroywhatever remnant of faith is
left in that country becauseIreland was Catholic Ireland,
they were like the last ones tofall with abortion and all these
(01:07:36):
things, and they're just undersuch assault.
Man I, because I'm my mother'sirish, my dad's catholic, so
it's you know.
I mean, it's the same thing.
Like you, look at my extendedfamily and you saw this
beautiful catholic foundationjust get decimated over the past
few decades.
Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
It's crazy but you know we talked about saints.
Listen, god is going to raiseup the saints that are needed at
this time.
It's always been the case.
He will raise up the exactsaint needed for the particular
problems that we are in now, andthat saint could be you, that
saint could be me.
We're all called to that, soour response should be yes.
(01:08:15):
Yes, we have righteous anger,yes, there are things that are
confusing, but let's focus onwhat, because the temptation, of
course, is to is to save theworld, is to champion
environmentalism, is to stop thewar, is to have a banner and be
an activist.
We're not called to beactivists, we're called to be
faithful, and it's the simplesaints and martyrs who are
(01:08:38):
faithful who have that impact.
It's not by walking around witha placard and petitioning
politicians or whatever.
Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
No, it's living out your vocation right.
If you're a mother, be a goodmother and wife.
If you're a father, be a goodfather and husband.
If you're a child, be obedientto your parents.
Like, live out your vocationthe best you can and, uh, that
that really, it really is theway to heaven.
It's like I mean marriageespecially.
I've me and my wife talk aboutit all the time, just like how
(01:09:12):
you really see, how thesacraments do bring you to
heaven, especially in thesacrament of marriage, like you
two are getting each other toheaven, whether you, whether you
have a intention or not.
If it's you, oh, man, we'regoing to have to do another show
because I want to get into your, I want to get into your story
(01:09:32):
about your mom, because it wassuch a touching story and it led
to your reversion, and we'regoing to have to do another
episode.
But well, what I'll do is, man,I'm going to have to.
Maybe the week that the nextpope is elected, I'll take
another day off and we'll setsomething else up again, because
there's so much more we couldget into.
But, catherine, this wasamazing.
(01:09:55):
Thank you for being brave,thank you for doing what you do
and, man, just keep dealing withthe onslaught.
Don't let anybody's onlinecomments bother you.
It really is nothing.
Turn off twitter and you'refine.
So I I admire you for yourcourage.
This was this is fun to dothank you, that's really kind.
Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Any courage I have, uh is by god's grace, you know
really.
So, um, I'm, I'm glad he has meand I I'll do what, you know,
whatever he asks of me, whateverthat is.
And just thank you for yourprayers.
You've been really you've beenreally kind, anthony, and really
supportive, and I know you'vebeen praying for us and me
especially following that.
Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
So, um, yeah, I know you're a lot of misogynist
anthony, but I hate you folks.
There's only a few Catholicshows I watch.
You guys are always.
Anytime I see something new popup from you guys, I always
watch.
It's funny how my taste haschanged and I used to enjoy like
the one man monologue or theone person monologue and now I
(01:10:57):
just enjoy conversations.
I love seeing like peoplebouncing off of each other.
I just find it easier to tolisten to and it's not all just
everybody saying the same thingand you know, there is a little
bit of a differing opinion andso I think you guys are a great
combination over there.
So give Gavin my best.
He's the only one that I didnot speak to today and I'll have
to set something up with him atanother date.
Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Yeah, I'll have to set something up with him at
another date.
Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Yeah, I know you've spoken to him before.
Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Oh yeah, I've had him on again.
Yeah, that's really kind of you.
Thank you, anthony, and I hopeyou'll come on Catholic
Unscripted.
Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
We'll try and get that scheduled and try to figure
that out.
But all right, we'll see youguys.
I will see you guys at eighto'clock tonight.
If you're not subscribed, gosubscribe to Catholic Unscripted
Thanks.
Thank you.
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