Faith in Numbers: Debating the Future of Catholic Parishes

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
SANTE, sante AMARE MORTI NECRADAS NOS IN TE
SPELAVERUMT.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
All right.
So I wasn't even sure exactlywhat we were debating tonight,
because I thought we werearguing about the demographic
winter or a demographicspringtime.
But in the green room we'rebringing up some other topics,
so I had no idea where this showwas going to go tonight.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
I just got to meet our and we still don't.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, I don't know, I hear my own show pop up.
That's weird.
So we're going to have aconversation.
It's not going to be like aformal debate where each guy
gets a set amount of time oranything.
We'll kind of just let it be afree-flowing conversation.
I think we're going to end upgetting into what is some of the
causes of the declines thatwe're seeing and maybe what are

(01:09):
some of the hopes.
But as we start off, everybodyhit like and subscribe.
If you guys enjoy the show,share it.
You know, do the normal stuff,but let's meet our guests.
Hoosier, who are you?
What's your story?

Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm just a passionate guy.
I've just been awakened to thetruth in christ and the fullness
of that, and so I've beenobviously like getting involved
with people like you and I justgot to say like there is a lot
to not be optimistic about.
I'm not blind to that fact, butthe very fact that there's
people taking time out of theirweeknight to watch this in this

(01:44):
country, in this church, who arehave my zeal for the gospel and
have my zeal for the church andlisten to people like you and
all that, like I just can't helpbut be a little optimistic.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Call me crazy, um well, hold on, I'll get to you,
hang on.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
I love seeing the excitement.
I love seeing the excitement.
I love it.
This is awesome.
Are you a convert?
Are you a revert?
Have you always had your faith?
What's the deal?
Convert, convert, where'd youcome?

Speaker 4 (02:10):
from.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Reformed, reformed.
When did you convert?
In the process, in the process,so you haven't even fully
converted to the church, yetOkay, good to know.
All right, ryan, who are you?
What's your story?

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Name's Ryan, tlm, I guess formally and on on Twitter
, formally and on.
I guess I'll be TLM, semi andon.
Now I'm in Nashville, tennessee, so pretty good, pretty good.
Diocese, also a convert, camein in 2020.

(02:46):
Just, you know, made a Twitteraccount to see what was up and
boy it's fiery.

Speaker 3 (02:53):
And then I started tweeting things and you found
Anthony and decided to get offTwitter.
Yeah, how'd you come across?

Speaker 1 (02:59):
our show.
It was the YouTube algorithmpushed it to me and I watched it
, you know, with trepidation atfirst, cause it was like well,
like I mean they're kind ofsmall, let's see.
And then I I mean I was justlaughing, like there was one
episode where you guys it'salmost like you didn't even
realize you were on air andyou're just like like Rob

(03:19):
where's just laughing?
I'm like these guys are juststraight up doing it live.
There's nothing like this outhere.
So that's great.
so I just kept watching, youknow I watch you guys, anthony
stein, and that's about it allright.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
So when you came in, did you go right to the latin
mass or did you go, uh, novusordo, and then come over?
What was your story?

Speaker 1 (03:41):
so this is what's weird.
I'd only ever been to oneCatholic Mass when I was like 13
.
Didn't know anything about it,wasn't blown away.
I don't know how I knew this,but I was with my grandma.
I said, grandma, don't they doit in Latin, or something,
because I was kind ofunderwhelmed.
She's like, oh no, they don'tdo that anymore.
And I was like just my13-year-old brain, year old

(04:07):
brain, thought well, that's amistake.
Yeah, never went, never wentback and toes in my 20s.
But I knew there was such athing so I googled it.
Once I moved down here I saidare there any?
Like I know it's protestantcountry.
It was like, are there anylatin masses in nashville?
Oh, two blocks from you, wow.
So I walked in and I didn't.
I don't remember the novus ordothat I went to when I was like
a teenager.
I don't remember anything aboutit.
So really I'm like a guy whowas is from the 50s and like

(04:31):
time traveled because I onlyever got really the latin mass.
I didn't go to a novus ordo forlike two years after my maybe a
year, year and a half after myconversion, and I went.
I was like I understand, Iunderstand.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah, you should have had to do like six months of
Novus Ordo as boot camp, butokay, we'll take it All right.
So let's lay out kind of justlike a framework of where we
want this conversation to go,because originally I thought you
guys were going to be arguingwhether we have a demographic
winter upon us or demographicspringtime, and I understand the

(05:12):
new convert zeal that Hoosierhas.
Ryan, you seem to have more oflike Rob's temperament, where
you're just like doom and gloomand like everything's terrible.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Well, it's terrible.
It's funny.
I actually white.
If you follow my Twitter a lot,I'm way more optimistic.
Um, and you could.
You could take the.
The tweet that set off thisentire like I'll debate you, bro
Argument was, um, one of them.
It was one of my only blackpills, but at the end I mean I'm
, I'm optimistic.

(05:45):
It's just I'm optimistic fortraditionalism, okay, but yes,
in this, if Hoosier wants to say, okay, I think it's bad, but
not as bad as Ryan says, I'llshow you it's even worse.
So I will be doom and gloom fortoday.
That'll be my statement.
Okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
So, hoosier, what were some of the things you took
issue with in his tweet?
Let's, let's start with that.
Let's say that's a.
That's a good place to start.
What?
What is it in his tweet thatyou took issue with and you were
like wait a minute.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
I'd like to challenge some of this I really want him
to explain the tweet first can I, can, I can I pull up the tweet
real quick?

Speaker 4 (06:17):
yeah, yeah, let's do that.
I'll just look it up so I can,and I'll read it off right, and
this is.
This is where I'm like okay,what case is being made here?
Is it the one?

Speaker 1 (06:26):
that Al Carbo responded to yeah, something
like that.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
So we start off.
I've done the math and it isshocking.
Yeah, all right, uh, and do youwant me to systemically debunk
this?
Or do you want me to read this?
No, no, read it, uh read itfirst okay, okay, now I'll go
point by point.
Nova sordo parishes will closein mass, with millions of
boomers now dying each year.

(06:51):
I estimate 13 parishioners willpass away a year.
That's 13 who tithe.
I have the amount who tend toattend mass.
Let's say that a couple, soseven households each year cease
to give on average.
Multiply that by five years andwhat parish can sustain itself

(07:11):
when it loses 35 tithinghouseholds?
Very few are just for the firstfive years.
Deaths will exponentiallyincrease by year 10.
And this doesn't take intoaccount the rate of young people
leaving the faith 13% retentionrate at the new mass.

(07:32):
So the boomers won't bereplaced and they won't be the
only ones who cease to tithe asother parishioners leave for
Protestantism, atheism, which isnothing in particular.
Add in progressive leadingparishes who fly the rainbow
flag, even worse retention andyou've now got a complete
implosion on the very nearhorizon.
Number three closures will beuneven.

(07:54):
The USA is undergoing a secondreverse great migration, with
many moving to the SunbeltStates.
Diocese but I'm assuming youmeant dioceses in the South
south will likely not see parishclosure collapse at the same
rate as the diocese.
And then okay, plural, yeah,there we go, my bad diocese
northern, traditionally catholicstates, but they will still
close, just slower.

(08:15):
Migration doesn't solve theproblems, uh, population problem
, it's a leaky band-aid thatjust buys some time.
And then said traditionalparishes will continue to grow
and become cramped due totraditionis custodis.
Uh, numbers with tc and placefactor and the pc repealed
factor, uh, both show growth.
It's just a matter of speed.
Keep in mind, traditionalparishes have a 3.4 child to um

(08:38):
per woman.
I'm assuming you meant totalfertility rate and a 75%
retention rate.
What's stopping them now isbuilding access to TC, which
forces hundreds of families intolimited spaces.
The projection below Idouble-checked all the AI math.
That's outstanding.
Note that this does not includethe SSPX, which will continue

(08:59):
to grow parallel to thesediocesan and adult TLMs.
Traditional Catholics will gaininfluence with each passing year
.
With the growth of TLM parishesand the subsequent implosion of
the Novus Ordo parishes, theTLM attending Catholics will
have an increasing weight tothrow around.
Currently, tlm attendingCatholics make up 11% of weekly
masses attending Catholics.
That's likely to double in fiveto 10 years and double again in

(09:22):
15 to 20 years.
Rome's dire financial situationdoes not lend itself to a long,
drawn out war of attrition withtraditionalists First.
The war of attrition doesn'tfavor the modernists, as seen
above.
And second, rome is already atrecord deficits.
Sooner or later they'll have torequest money from
traditionalists.
Pope Leo already has.
Anthony Stein reported on thisyesterday.

(09:43):
So traditionalists will haveboth increasing numbers and
increasing financial weight astime passes on, literally with
each passing year.
Rome could ideologically plugits ears and stomp its feet, but
that's unlikely.
Money talks, even with TC stillin place.
It will not stop the moneyhemorrhaging out of these
parishes.
Tc needs to be repealed, notonly so the above will happen

(10:04):
regardless, but so that thechurch can gracefully transition
to this smaller state andmitigate some of the losses.
Novasorta Parish still inhabitssome beautiful buildings and
they're at risk of closures.
If this happens quickly,quicker than TLM, communities
can grow to inherit theseparishes.
If TC keeps the growth slowed,we could lose many historical
churches of Protestants, muslimsor even secular projects.

(10:25):
The reaction from the hierarchywill be most fascinating to
watch the situation on theground.
We'll present them with morechoices to make, but as more and
more priestly and traditional,eventually the dam will break to
buckle up and thread.
And sorry that I mispronounceda lot of stuff.
I'm like blind right now.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
I'm trying my best, brian did my best, ryan, did you
submit that as an article toCrisis?
You probably could have gotthat in as an article.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Somebody reached out and sent it to like three
different articles, so I wasactually reading along on mine,
which was the article form, so Ijust changed a few words.
It's been somewhere.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Alright.
So, hoosier, why don't youtackle a point or two and we'll
see if Ryan wants to respond tothat point?
That's a very long tweet.
No, absolutely, tackle a point.
Let's see what Ryan has torespond.
Let's see how this goes alittle bit.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah, and again, I appreciate your zeal for the
church and what it's going tolook like in the future.
That's important, obviously.
Give me your best bud.
My number one would actually beI think you might have sold
yourself short on 3.4 childchildren per woman in
traditional parishes.
But what you have to rememberis at large and this wouldn't be

(11:32):
a number of enough significanceto be impacted based on how
many catholics are tlm and havefamilies already, and that
catholics have a total fertilityrate in america of 2.2 to 2.3
children per woman per gallup.
So you still have replacementlevels of fertility.
And not only that.
I will take as gospel your deathrates.
I could probably dig a littlebit more into them.

(11:54):
I have data that could dig moreinto them, but let's just say
okay, 13 parishioners a year aredying.
What you're missing here is thechurch via the um, uh, via Kara
of Georgetown, actuallyreported.
So the applied via the um, viacara of georgetown, actually
reported.
So the applied app.
Um research of the apostolatereported 480 905 baptisms in

(12:15):
2024 and if you divide that bythe number of parishes in the
united states, you actually get28 baptisms annually for the
average parish more than enoughto mitigate any losses you would
get in death, Is it?

Speaker 1 (12:28):
408?

Speaker 4 (12:29):
480,905 baptisms.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Might be larger than that.
Do you know how many babyboomers die each year?
Catholic, catholic.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
I mean we're probably losing about.
Do you know how many babyboomers die each year?
Yeah, Catholic, Catholic.
I mean we're probably losingabout.
The death rate amongst boomersis like 15 per 100,000.
So we're probably or not for100,000, 15 per 10,000.
So we're probably losing like 5to 80 a year per parish.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
So in the United States today, we lose 2.6
million boomers each year.
Now, they're not all Catholic,but 30% of them probably are
right, 22% exactly.
Oh, okay, so you do that math,that's 600,000 and 616,000 each
year.
Just boomers, just boomers.

(13:20):
Now that's identification.
So you, you do have to be alittle more um cautious with
that, because people can justsay, well, I'm Catholic on a
survey.
So what I actually did was Ireduced that and I used the
weekly mass attending number.
So 38% attend weekly mass.

(13:42):
And why do I use weekly massattendance?
Because if you go to massweekly, you're probably most
likely to tithe, and that's whatkeeps the lights on, you know.
So, as you saw on the tweet,I'm just talking parish closures
.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
Right.
According to the center for umfor applied research on the
apostolate, you only have like11 to 13% of Catholics actually
giving any substantial portionof their anything, as them
building a tie of.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Right, and most I would argue most of those are
boomers too.
Oh yeah, I wouldn't deny that.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
So.
So I actually didn't even takethat into account because I
wanted to be so generous to thepositive side, if you will, or
that it's not so doom and gloomside I get.
I chop off a lot of when I domy calculations, which we'll
talk about.
I chop off a lot of when I domy calculations, which we'll
talk about.
I chop off a lot of reductiondata just to, because I just
basically over the last monthwanted to see where it came out.
I said, don't get too technicalwith it, let's just see, based

(14:35):
on, like, deaths, baptisms, whatit's looking like.
And it was so horrific that Iwas like well, I don't even have
to factor in.
I'm basically saying, okay, ifyou go to Mass weekly, you
probably tithe, which we know isnot true.
But for the sake of argument andto give a little benefit of the
doubt, I just included thosenumbers.
So when I divide the 616,000who die each year by 0.38, 38%,

(15:11):
38, 38, um, that's when I got um, 14 boomers who attend mass
weekly will die each year.
I then divided that by two,just to assume they're like a
household rather than 14households, because you know.
And so then you do seven timesfive, because we're talking
about a five-year time span, andthat's why I got to the number
of 35 maybe tithing parishionersdying each year.
It gets worse, though, becausethat's the current rate of

(15:31):
boomer deaths by the year 2037,four million boomers will be
dying each year, compared to 2.6million boomers, so you're
almost doubling why would thenumber?
wait, hang on, because they getolder, because they're they're I
mean like you're old, okay,yeah, yeah, so it's gonna pick
up pace, yeah, okay, um, soright now it looks scary and

(15:55):
it's only gonna get worse.
Now your your stat on thebaptisms coming in.
It's then then we to go toretention rate, and that's the
other thing.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
Yes, and I have the retention rates.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Okay, we could go there, if you want, or we could
keep talking boomers.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
This is so funny for me.
Listen, you autistic freakingGen Zers.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Just go over numbers.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
I love how Anthony thinks anyone that does math is
autistic.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
I just I've done math since 2010.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
No, it doesn't work for me yeah, okay, so then it
doesn't exceed the math's notthere for you.
It doesn't exceed the number,even if we're assuming 23%.
He didn't give me a number thatstipulates that it's 13 per the
number of, even if we'reassuming 23, like you.
Didn't give me a number thatstipulates that it's 13 per
parish.
And even if that were the case,like nothing of what you just
said actually brings it to 13per parish, like I.

(16:55):
I followed you and then I lostyou because you didn't actually
play that out.
But not only that, not onlythat, not only that.
Right, the silent generationtithed even more.
The church weathered thedecline of the silent generation
.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
We lost a thousand parishes in the last decade.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
Okay, yeah but, so many parishes have closed
recently.
Man.

Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yes, but can we talk about why they've closed?
Yeah, okay, of parishes closing, it is largely due to parishes
that were not able to hold on todemographic change and people
move and they are the moresuburbanized and there's a
priest shortage I won't denythat.
So that makes them have to goto larger parishes.
That makes parishes have toconsolidate.
It's not a factor of just sheerdeclining attendance across the

(17:38):
board but the net, the net.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
So you're talking like okay, so down in the South
maybe like 500 parishes thatwere built, but up in the North
you lose 1500.
So that nets out at a thousand.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
I mean, the number of parishes in 2014 was 17,435.
Now it's probably somewhere in16,500 range, maybe even a
little bit lower.
So it took us a decade to lose1,000 parishes, right?
But of those parishes that wereclosing right, most of those
were holding on by a thread.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
So Hoosier, are you arguing that it's not going to
be as rapid as Ryan is?

Speaker 4 (18:20):
saying I'm not, saying it's not happening,
because that would just be not.
I mean, look the proof's in thepudding.
But it's not going to be thatrapid.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
So I have from 2014 to 20, so from 1990 to 2014, you
had a 12% decline rate.
This is all Pew Research data.
You had a 12% decline rate intotal perishes from 19,620 down
to 17,483.
But from 2014 to 2019, you wentfrom 17,483 to 16,346.

(18:53):
I also saw a number 16,446, sowhatever.
So you go from an average overthat time span of 6.22 percent
loss.
But if you just go in the lastfive years now it's doubled to
12.5 percent loss at a decaderate.
So it is increasing um I thinkyou are right, I think, the

(19:15):
silent generation, because Ihave the mass retention and
weekly mass attendance numbersfor silence and they were better
than the boomers, of course.
So I do think that I basicallythink your silence, the silent
deaths which were almost at theend of um, kind of probably
accounted for that um, but theproblem is you also don't have

(19:37):
regeneration and that's whereit's actually going to get even
scarier.
Like I, I actually think if youjust put an immortality charm
on the boomers and they neverdied, you would still see parish
closures because the retentionrates, like, think about it like
the sports team, you have tohave good defense, good offense,
or if you have a bad defense,you have to have an offense that

(19:58):
can score more, or vice versa.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
So 2019 was particularly brutal.
But what happened now?
Let's think critically here.
Right, what happened to reallybolster that artificially?
Because we also know that it'sstabilized before and again.
Considering consolidatedparishes as closed parishes is a
little bit uncharitable forbeing realistic on what's going
on there.
But I will say even if thosenumbers are scary, let's get

(20:21):
into them.
You did concede to me and Iwill take this and I'll say it's
true.
The silent generation is themain driver of the first decade,
major decade of loss.
We've seen what's happening now.
What happened in 2018?
Certain scandals broke thatmade a lot of very uneasy on the
fence, lackadaisical Catholicsa lot more wary about going to
mass.
That is a real concern.
That is a legitimate thing thathappened.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Hang on, hang on, hang on.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
Pre-shortages also hit an all time.
They started hitting the, wewere sort of a halcyon of
priestly numbers and declines,but now you still have all these
lawsuits.
So then, parishes and diocesesare inundated with amounts of
money that they have to spendtheir blood for cash.
Yes, of course, the mid 20 tolate 2010s is when we really saw
this happen.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Well, what about?
What about?
Covid factored in right, sothey told everybody stay home.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
But you just think, when you have all these lawsuits
, the diocese have to pay outbecause one priest in the
diocese happened to do somethingthat he should not have done.
That's going to cost them a lotof money and if there's a
parish on the fence, like we'vetalked about, they have narrow
operational rates.
Yes, that is going torealistically close parishes at
a faster rate.
They have stabilized since then.
There's tremendous evidencefrom the ci ra to suggest that

(21:33):
rates of parish closures havestabilized to a rate that's
sustainable and that actuallyoutpaces other christian
denominations so I'll addressthat in a little bit, but all I
will.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
All I will say is because I'm going to go back to
my offense defense here for asecond, um, but first what I
would say is like, if we want toblame parish closures for
priest shortages, the sspx hasshown that that's not the case.
They have priestly shortages,but they continue to grow they
have 187 seminarians in theUnited States.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Yeah, but they have requests for like 150 more
parishes.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, so all right.
So, basically, like I canconcede on multiple points
instead of dragging this into amonth fight because I'm about to
show why it's not stabilizedjust based on what I call
offense and defense, defensebeing retention rate, offense
being fertility rate.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
I'd love to talk about retention rates, please.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
So I mean, it's just a simple sports analogy, like
you can have a bad retentionrate but then you have to have
parents who are having a ton ofbabies that's kind of what we
see in Africa, or you know.
You have to have a really goodretention rate and then you
don't have to have so manychildren.
So let me pull this up.
So on the defense side we'retalking retention rate and I

(22:54):
want to be generous here,because when we talk about
retention rate, that gets tricky.
It's easier to track.
On the TLM side, it's verydifficult to track on the Novus
Ordo side, because the NovusOrdo is the mainstream.
So when you go out and you dopolling data, a lot of people
will just say yes, I'm Catholic,yeah, right.
So I found a way to actuallyget the retention rate and I'm

(23:14):
going to share this math offlinebecause I again like I'm not a
mathematician, um, so I willshare it offline if people want
to correct it.
But I calculated the retentionrate of Novus Ordo Catholics who
grew up attending weeklyBecause I think that's only fair
.
If your parents didn't take itvery seriously, you're likely

(23:36):
not to retain the faith.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
Real quick, real quick.
I'd point out another commonstatistical error here that
we're getting with selectingbias.
In that I mean number one.
Setting your own parameters isalways hard to do statistically
right, because you can obviouslylike I mean one tiny little
sort of kink in the numbers andyou can just end up with a
number that's totally wrong.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
It's not going to matter.
It's so bad, it's literally notgoing to matter.
I'm going to show how, even ifyou would, but also not only
that.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
I think a big, a big thing that we're dealing with
here right A big thing is thatpeople who claim that they grew
up attending Mass weekly againthat could also and the thing is
, you said 13% retention That-was incorrect.
I'm going to up in the churchand would have been of the

(24:22):
generation so this is in thatage demographic of I believe
it's 35 to 60 who would have notgrown up in the church of.
Um, you know, pre Vatican, preVatican, two 67% retention rate
and it hasn't gotten lower perthat same pew 2024 survey that I
was assuming you're talkingabout of of identification.
Yeah, I don't know what wouldthat track again, like you said,

(24:45):
it is admittedly incrediblyhard to track it whether that
results.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
You're roughly there.
I had a high end of 62%, butthat to me, this doesn't really
matter because I'm going to show.
I'm going to show right now whyit doesn't matter, because
there's basically not enoughoffense to cover for the defense
.
Okay, so the highest amount ofself identified retaining
Catholics meaning I identifiedas a Catholic as a child.
You surveyed me when I'm anadult and I still would identify

(25:10):
as Catholic.
So we're not talking weeklymass attendees, not the people
who can keep the lights on atthe parish.
The highest is with HispanicAmericans at 68%.
Second highest is whiteCatholics at 62%.
Okay, okay, highest is whiteCatholics at 62%, okay, okay.
So if you want to break thatdown into how many, then

(25:31):
continue to go weekly, okay.
Here was the return.
So I'm raised weekly.
I now continue to go weekly.
In 2005, that number was 60%,then it was 52% by 2015, 32.53%
by 2019, 22%.
It dipped a lot because ofCOVID 22.67% and then it
rebounded to 32%.

(25:51):
So right now we're at a low of32%.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
Wait, can I?
Okay, hang on, hold on.
What are you referencing atthis point in time?

Speaker 1 (25:58):
I'm referencing the percent of Catholics who retain
weekly mass attendance rates,because those are the people who
are going to donate and keepthe parish going.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
Catholics had 75% church attendance rates back
then.
That's not a fair comparison.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
That's apples and oranges to today.

Speaker 4 (26:14):
Yeah, my entire thesis here is that the church
is in a really bad state, sincethe council yeah, but you're
trying to draw numbers from apoint in time at which the
church had said yeah, of coursethat's going to be the case, of
course you're going to have lowattendance and it's only going
to get lower as people die.
That has nothing to do withwhat the current studying the
course of the church has.
It's not going to study.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
And here's why, and I'm going to make the point
right now.
So I mean, in comparison, theTLM has 75% retention rate.
I used SSPX data because theynot convert influence and Kara
report was 99% weekly massattendance.
Stick a pin in that.
Let's look at the offense.
Okay, yeah, and I'll show.
I'll give you whatever rate youwant of retention, sure, okay.

(26:53):
So this is how you, if anyoneout there wants to figure out if
their parish is going to beable to sustain itself, this is
the math equation that you do.
You do 2.1 divided by yourretention rate.
2.1 is the replacement ratethat's universally accepted.
That shows you.
That spits out the number ofchildren that a woman needs on

(27:16):
average to just keep the parishstable.
And I didn't even consider thefactor especially barren sites,
that for every convert, eightleave.
So I'm not taking this intoaccount.
So I'm being very generous.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
I got a question.
Yeah sure, hoosier, why are youlike I'm trying to understand,
especially because you're so newto this like, why are you so
passionate about this?

Speaker 4 (27:45):
So I'm not new to like.
I've I I kind of like looked uphis lines and it's like he's
putting.
It sounds like he's right onpaper and he is, but the issue
is he's completely putting thecart before the horse on this.
This is called thenon-literality fallacy and the
issue here is obviously we canboth look back and say, yes,

(28:07):
baby boomers represent atremendous drop off in church
attendance.
That's all he's pointed out,like by saying wow, we see, oh,
percent raised in the churchthat attend the church, percent
raised when he's talking aboutit.
Going off a cliff would be whenthe children of baby boomers
came of age and started applyingto these statistics.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, because look, a lot of Catholics do leave for a
period of time and then comeback right.
I mean it happens to a lot ofpeople, they have reversions and
stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (28:35):
But all he's doing with pointing this dropout and
then talking about thestabilizing key is actually
proving my point real quick, andI'll get into why.
I'm passionate because I thinkthat's a great question, right,
but real quick, all he's doingis saying, wow, here's what we
already know.
A huge number of peopleattended Mass Weekly went off a
cliff, which is revealed in the22%.
When you start to see thechildren of baby boomers who
never you know who might'vegrown up, confirmed, but you

(29:00):
know they don't attend massanymore.
We see a drop off, we seeabysmal retention rates.
The very fact that it's goingup, I think, speaks to my point
that people who are now thechildren of Gen X being involved
in these statistics and peoplewho are even the children of
late baby boomers that what'sgoing up.
He said it was 22% to 32%retention rate of easily
attendance yeah.

(29:20):
You know this.
That's not what I'm.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
It's okay, of course, okay, okay, well, I want to.
I want to answer Anthony'squestion.
Why am I passionate?
In the catechism it says allmen are bound to seek truth.
Right, I absolutely love thetruth.
All men are guided towardstruth, we're told in first john,
and I think that there's meritin pursuing it.
So I think to take statisticsthat would lead you to the
conclusion that the church isgoing to be absolutely nuked in

(29:50):
the next 10 years, and talkingin absolutism like that, when
it's not backed up by the math,and pointing out we already know
, and making it seem like itproves a larger point and and
then you know, going with thenonlinear era or of, like you
know, they're doubling becauseit's such a small sample size,
and saying that it's going to bethe majority of the church next
number of time, that's notpursuing the truth.
So I'm not here to opposeanybody.

(30:12):
I'm not here to make anargument against you.
I just don't think that thenumbers are lining up with what
you're saying and the only thingyou prove by that is what we
already know that yes, it wasabysmal for the church in the
1960s, 70s and 80s, but that'snot a mystery and that's all
you've shown.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, they had higher retention rates back then.
You literally said it yourself.
You said 75% at the start ofthe council went, and then if
you go to like 70%, that's notretention rates, it's attended,
yeah, yeah.
So then it drops, but itdoesn't drop by a ton, by 75.
It doesn't drop by a ton by 85,but then it starts to pick up.
So let me give you I was aboutto give you this and this is

(30:47):
what everybody you can go to anyNovus Ordo parish and look
around and ask yourself thisquestion.
Okay, because we're talkingabout you say it's going to be
stable If you have and I'llstart with the worst case and
I'll go all the way up to thehighest you want If you have a
32% retention rate, the averageNovus Ordo married woman needs

(31:10):
to have 6.6 children, just tokeep the lights on, and probably
a little more, because forevery convert, 8.4.
Leave, let's bump your numbersup.
Let's say, hey, I have betterdefense, I have better retention
rate.
42% retention rate.
You need to have five children.
Let's say 52% retention rate,so half my children will still

(31:31):
remain in the faith and attendweekly.
To be able to tithe you need tohave an average of 4.03
children.
And then at the highest end,the highest end of white
Catholics who identify, we coulduse end, the highest end of
white Catholics who identify, wecould use Hispanic.
I used white, white Catholics,uh.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
There we go.
I want to point something out,because Hoosier said, baptisms,
right, there's many baptisms.
And even Cole saying, right,there's this many baptisms, so.
And and even Cole saying, like,my parish had 30 baptisms this
year, okay, so baptisms you haveto be careful with, because
there's convert baptisms, it'sone thing I'm only counting

(32:15):
infant for argument's sake,right, okay so now.
Now infants are very trickynumber, because I know tons of
catholics who will get theirinfant baptized because they
never go back to the ceremonyright it's like
oh, I'll go give the parish afew bucks, I'll baptize my
infant.
They never put their kidsthrough communion.
They never put them througheven even adult converts.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
Half of adult converts are there because never
get married, or something likethat too.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
So oh, yeah, you have to actually look at the health
of parishes and I can, I cantell you just just based on my
observation of going to theseparishes.
So like even uh, al carbo say,he's like, oh, my parish has 50
000 registered members and he'sin an area that's 90 or 19 000.

(32:59):
It's in an area that has, inthat area is 50 000 people and
it's like that would meanthere's a 50 of catalan.
But what's really going on?
There is he's in a very italianarea, in staten island, and
italians are still culturallycatholic, like the us, you know
they still, land is very limited, so it's a mega parish.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
So that might not be your best example, but but even
even still, will you go to hisparish on Sunday?

Speaker 2 (33:23):
It's not like his parish is packed and that's.
With 19,000 registered members,the parish is.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Let me just get into the hard numbers with you,
though, right, because I lovewhat Ryan's trying to say and
it's just.
It's just like I said here'sthe cart, here's the horse.
The issue is here's the cart,here's the horse.
The issue is yes, obviously, ifwe had high 70s percentage of
attendance and then you're goingin a generation, which again

(33:50):
this happened I'm not going torewrite history down to we're at
today, probably between 27 to29%, yes, that is initially
going to show that abysmal 32,22% retention figure.
The fact that it's going upshows that the current day
retention figure of people whoare being brought into the
church right now is far higher,far higher.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
But dude, it's got to be like a total turnaround.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
You've got to bump those defense retention numbers
up to 40 plus percent.
Why does it have to be?
Because, if you can't, becauseif your baptisms come in and
they all leave, it doesn't keepthe lights on and you're also,
you also have to take intoaccount what they're even
teaching at these parishes.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Man, like they're not and that's like you know, like,
look, I'm not saying that therearen't good parishes out there,
but I I go, I church hop and Ihave for years and man, I'm
telling you it's abysmal in alot of these places and those
parishes that are abysmal, likethey're just going to shut down
when the, when their boomerattendees are gone.

(34:52):
It's just, look, you guys canargue about like these figures,
and that's one thing, but I Iwant to know why we should even
be optimistic about the futureof the like.
Like I am optimistic abouttradition growing, because I do
see and this is all subjectiveof my own experience, what I'm

(35:15):
seeing but when I go to thediocesan latin mass parishes in
my, in my, in my diocese,they're vibrant, they have young
children.
When I go to a nova sordo, itis not vibrant and so, like my,
my experience is playing out towhat ryan is saying, where I
know you're arguing for thesenumbers and stuff, but I I'm
just experientially, ryan's,ryan's case seems way more

(35:37):
plausible.

Speaker 4 (35:38):
Anecdotally, it's a slam dunk well, I mean that.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
That's why you just look at net loss parishes.
Now who's your?
You're kind of making the casethat it's not based on
demographics or my statistics.
That's a fair argument to makeif you want to make it.
I don't particularly buy itbecause I couldn't find the math
to.
But you know I'll post the mathpublicly and someone else sure,
sure go on that.
But I I just ask anybody who'swatching.

(36:02):
It's like when you go to aNovus Ordo parish, do you see
average families having fourplus children and that's
assuming a decent retention rate.
Not decent historically, butfor this day and age it would
mean a 50% retention rate.
You just have to look around.
That's like.
That's the math.
If your retention rate's bad,you got to have a lot of kids.
If your retention rate's notbad, like if it's the TLM, the

(36:25):
TLM has a 75% retention rate.
Roughly speaking, you need anaverage of 2.8 kids per family.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
Ryan, can I ask you something?
Yes, how old is the averagepractitioner, Catholic
practitioner, PractitioningMainline Protestant?
And this is not a gotcha, I'mjust curious.
The average sorry, the medianit's hard to get an exact median
based on certain demographicsectors and polls they take.
For Mainline it's 58.
That's pretty bad right.
51 for Evangelical Catholic is49, two years younger, the

(36:57):
youngest group in America is.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
I would argue that's not gonna save.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
save us from closing a thousand or two thousand oh,
it's still a problem, don't getme right and I would and I would
say a lot of the excitement itlike and a lot of that younger
um fervor is around tradition,it just is, and even if it's not
tradition, the the youngerfervor is around tradition, it
just is.
And even if it's not tradition,the younger fervor is definitely
around Reverend Novus Ordo, atminimum, right, like all the

(37:28):
young people that are coming in,they want this Reverend Novus
Ordo.
And if you just look around atwhat your average, like a lot of
these parishes have these oldpriests who are still stuck in
the 60s and 70s and they want tocontinue this thing along.
So whether it's like straightup tradition is the future, like
ryan's saying, or if it's atleast this, this thing that

(37:50):
we're seeing is dying out likeit's, it's on its last legs and
there there's a few things likeyou look at the detroit
archbishop doing that uh, pushthe other day for the, for the
migrants and the peace and allthat stuff, and every single
person in that picture was old.
And it's like there was oneyoung family in that picture.
Everybody else was old.

(38:10):
This is kind of what we'relooking at and we're seeing as
the bishops and the priests areaging.
They're trying to hold on tothis thing from their youth, but
the new youth that is coming inhas a very different
perspective than they do.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
I would argue also like even acknowledging that we
might have huge parish closers,like that's not doom and gloom,
like I think it needs to happenfor there to really be a rebirth
.
I'm not saying I want people toleave the church, obviously.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
No, and it's also sad when we see our cathedrals
being given over to Muslims,things like that.
It's devastating.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
And for the area I live in, our parish has 50,000
total Catholics, 70 parishes.
I bet three-quarters of thoseparishes are gone in the next 10
to 15 years.
In our area it's largely due tothe demographic changes in yeah,
yeah, in the in the rural areaI live in, right, but that means

(39:06):
not only will I have to drivetwo plus hours to go to the tlm,
that means I think everyone inthe diocese is going to be
driving an hour plus to go toany mass and if they have an
hour to go to any mass becausethey're in the rural areas,
you'd be amazed how many peoplego.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
well, well, I'll just watch it on TV this week, you
know, because we're making asacrifice, because we're very
passionate about it and we'rewilling to make that sacrifice.
But look, because arguing aboutnumbers and statistics and
stuff is one thing, but justexperientially.
So you're coming in, where doyou, where do you live in?
You live in Indiana, indiana,indianapolis, indianapolis.

(39:44):
Okay, so what is your parishlike, life like, like when you
go to your parish, what's itactually like on the ground?

Speaker 4 (39:53):
actually actually skews, pretty young.
I mean a lot of hispanics.
Okay, I often go to.
I often go to the mass hispanicokay I I like it and it's I
mean it's, it's done well, it ison the more reverent side of
the coin.
I, I will concede right, it'snot a unicorn reverent but what
do you?

Speaker 1 (40:08):
what would you guess?
The average children per familyis oh, it's hispanic man.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
It's a lot like four or five no, they might survive.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Uh, where I'm from, I see about three.
Yeah, you see what I see aboutthree.
In the Novus Ordo Spanishmasses it's about three.
And when you go to the Englishmasses, now, depending on the
parish, we actually have a LatinNovus Ordo parish which does
very well, but on average ifthere are young people, I see
about two, but they're stillyoung and they may have more

(40:43):
right.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
But it doesn't matter , because there's so few of them
.
Like when we went to our localNovus Ordo.
You know we have three, we havea fourth on the way.
The other young family hasthree, probably going to be
having more.
But I said the other youngfamily, there's only one other
60 people in the parish andthere's 10 people under the age

(41:05):
of 50.
And that's because the boomersdidn't have a ton of kids and
the kids they did have didn'tstay.
You know what I mean.
So it's rough.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
So there was actually .
I had an interesting back andforth on Twitter with a guy who
left the SSPX.
He was from Arizona and he toldme the SSPX doesn't retain
anyone because they've neverbuilt a new parish.
So I just Googled that is theone he was talking about.
They started off with sevenfamilies and now they have 500

(41:36):
parishioners and they'reobviously expanding.
Yeah, with with theirinfrastructure.
The number of people when we goback to 33 ad not a lot of
christians and by 300 ad 25 ofthe roman empire.
the size doesn't matter, it'syour projections and so for
anyone says that like oh, youknow we can argue, you know math

(41:57):
back and forth and you knowyour math's off.
I would ask anyone if you'regoing to invest in a company
with these projection rates?
I'm talking projection rates,I'm not talking numbers, because
everyone says, oh, thetraditionalists are so small, it
doesn't matter.
Yeah, but they only need tohave 3.8 kids to grow, and they
have 3.6 on average.
That's why they're constantly.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
So there is, there is growth in there, but even then,
look, I think another factoryou have to add in here is we're
in the Internet age too andthere are a lot of like we're
talking about retention rates.
I can only tell you what thedifference is from when I was a
kid.
When I was a kid, all myfriends had to go to church on
Sunday.
My kids like, and their secularfriends, they all think my kids

(42:41):
are nuts because they go tochurch.
They're like oh, you guys go tochurch, nobody is going to
church anyway.
There's just this, this climatein the secular world of people
who just think nothing aboutgoing to church.
So, like we can and and that'skind of spreading and it's
getting worse and it's it's justan overall cultural thing that
we have to factor into this aswell.

(43:01):
So, look, I'm like I I don'tthink any of us are arguing that
the church is going to die, butI do.
But I don't even think it's adoom and gloom thing to look at
it the way ryan's looking at iteither, and I do think you kind
of have to um, cut off some ofthe dead weight and and those
parishes that aren't being even,because there's a lot of
parishes that are not teachingreal Catholicism, right?

(43:24):
So you kind of want thosehippie parishes that are doing
their, their silly things andstuff like those.
Let those die off, let them go.
It's not, it's all right, likewhat's going to survive is is a
faithful remnant, like, likeit's always done.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
The only concern I have and this will be my last
doom and gloom, because the endof my tweet was positive If
you're a pro-traditionalist, ifyou're anti-traditionalist, it
is all doom and gloom.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
I'm not anti-traditionalist at all.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
I don't think you are .
We need an off-ramp.
The church today, afterTraditionus Custodes, basically
said we're pulling up theoff-ramp because that's what
Benedict was trying to do, wasgive us an off-ramp.
How do we graciously transitionfrom the new mass, which does
not have good retention, into toat least save the buildings?

(44:10):
And that's what I'm, that'swhat I'm, that's what I'm
concerned about.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
So your point?
your point is they will have nochoice but to let tradition
thrive a bit if they want tokeep any of their buildings
right, like eventually,eventually, like it may take a
little time, but eventuallythey're going to say, if this is
the only thing making money,like if our diocese doesn't want
to just go bankrupt over to,because they still make money on
real estate holdings and stufflike that.
So that a lot of these diocesesare staying afloat due to

(44:38):
investments made when the churchwas healthy and booming right
and a lot of it's real estate.
So they bought a piece ofproperty for 50 grand and now
it's worth 5 million, thingslike that.
So the our strike.
New york is still extremelywealthy because it owns property
, but not right I gotta hang on,I gotta say not albany, look,
you know

Speaker 4 (44:57):
absolutely.
I think in this, in this sortof period of, you know,
secularism, secularism anddecline, like, obviously it can
refine it can, it can makediamonds, as we're told in
Genesis.
You know, you meant it for evil, but God used it for good and
it took look, it took the Aryancrisis to give us the Nicene
Creed.
Yeah, right, I mean, tragicthings can lead to great
outcomes.
I'm a Ratzinger right to mycore.
I don't think taking whatBenedict did and said as an

(45:18):
off-ramp would necessarily be.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Yeah, I don't know if I'd describe it that way I
don't know if I'd go thatdirection.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
I think that it is.
I think that we need absoluteliturgical freedom, and I think
I'm going to just we saw whatthey said about liturgical
freedom.
Can you charitably know what Imeant by that?
Yes, yes, I do.
You do what I'm saying.
Can you charitably know what?

Speaker 2 (45:39):
I meant by that yes, I do.
You do what I'm saying Nobody'sgoing to own you.
It was a funny thing to say.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
Yeah, obviously.
So two things.
Number one obviously thetraditional Latin mass has seen
growth in a society where peopleare more than ever craving
authenticity.
They want something real, andthere is something very real
about that.
I would worry about blind whatI'm calling, and this is
actually part of why I wanted todiscuss I came.
Most of your viewers aretraditional or traditionally

(46:08):
inclined, like I wanted to comeinto.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
I don't think so really maybe most, maybe most.
Yeah, a soft spot fortraditionalism.

Speaker 4 (46:14):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I wanted to.
I wanted to tell people likethere's a lot to be pessimistic
about but there's also a lot tobe optimistic about, like I said
earlier, like I can't help butbe optimistic.
And two, I think you do risklooking at something with very
low supply and currently wayhigher demand than the supply
because of, frankly, theterrible action of restricting

(46:36):
the Latin mass.
Disgusting action ofrestricting the Latin mass, mess
, disgusting action ofrestricting the Latin mass.
But if you're going to say thatthat's just going to be
unfettered growth, that's goingto continue and this is a
nonlinear at the pace of evenclose to father, close to his
own numbers prove that it's onlyrealistically growing at a rate
of 15% a year, which isstaggering, but that's at a
small proportion with probablyamong 133,000 weekly

(46:59):
practitioners.
To say that that's the quote,unquote, off ramp of the church
ignores the bigger problem andwe need to go to battle Like we
have a lot to do, there's a lotof work left to be done.
Just saying the numbers are onmy side.
That's my cause for alloptimism.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
That's why I didn't.
I didn't use those numbers.
I use the SSPX because theydidn't have this pent up energy.
The Samoin pontificum unleashedI and they have a four percent
growth rate which, like you,don't have.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Okay, all right, I want to jump I want to jump into
that a little.
So samorin pontificum actuallydidn't unleash this pent-up
anything like so when.
When samorin came out, itwasn't like an explosion of
latin masses, they were veryslow.
They pop up here and there.
It wasn't.
And what I think bened thinkBenedict wanted to do with
Samorum was what he said hewanted there to be mutual

(47:45):
enrichment, not from the Latinmass, like, not from the Novus
Ordo to the Latin mass.
He wanted the Novus Ordo.
He was hoping there would bethese bifurcated parishes and
that people would pick up someof the more beautiful traditions
the church had from the pastand bring those back like and it
actually did work on some cases.

(48:06):
It wasn't like universal, butthere was definitely some mutual
enrichment, like even theparish rob went to when he was
growing up and had it was like abifurcated parish essentially,
but the novus ordo that was veryreverent because of that, like
the the parish I go to.
No, not at all.
But okay.
Oh, all right, I thought that'swhat you said, no, no.
So the parish I go to, even theNovus Ordo, they use the

(48:28):
communion rails, especially StRocco's.
St Rocco's will have AdOrientum, novus Ordo, things
like that.
So there is some mutualenrichment that did pass from
the TLM to the Novus Ordo.
I think that's what Benedictwas hoping for, because he
really did see the Novus Ordo asa banal.

(48:48):
He hated it, I mean hecelebrated it, but he wasn't a
fan of it, like he wrote theSpirit of the Liturgy and he
criticized it constantly.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Well, I mean if you're correct and there wasn't
pent-up energy, then the growthof traditional parishes is even
higher than I expect.
I only calculated it, it is.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Okay, so a few things that lead to that.
There was a huge boom in 2017,especially.
We're just talking aboutAmerica.
I don't know what it's likeworldwide in America, I only
know America.
In 2017, when the McCarrickscandal broke, there was
definitely a big boom, becausethat's when the podcast scene
starts breaking out and youstart hearing all these
podcasters talk about go to theLatin mass, go to the Latin mass

(49:27):
.
We're all we're getting aMorris Leticia and everybody's
kind of panicking.
And look for what the liberalsaccuse it of and say they used
the Latin mass as a as a like arallying point.
That is kind of true, like itis.
I'm not blaming any particularperson.
It just kind of was a rallyingpoint for people who were so fed
up with all the craziness goingon in the church and the

(49:47):
character scandals so they wentthere.
Then, when covid hit, covid waslike another insane boom because
all a lot of the nova sordoparishes stayed closed and the
ones that actually did startopening up sooner were the
traditional latin masses.
And then people would go thereone time and they say, wow,
they're actually all the thingsI'm wishing they had in the
Novus Ordo, because all faithfulCatholics are always going on
and on about the Reverend NovusOrdo.

(50:08):
We need a Reverend Novus Ordo.
Then they go to a Latin masslike, wait, everything I'm
wanting them to do there they'redoing here.
So usually Catholics who want aReverend Novus Ordo, they get
an experience of the Latin massand they're kind of like, well,
why am I fighting for a ReverendNovus Ordo?
It would just have everythingthat you know they're lacking
over there.
So, yeah, I think I thinkarguing over like, like,

(50:29):
demographics and things likethat, I almost think it's it's
fine, you could do it.
But just think about yourexperience on the ground and
what you're seeing out there andI'm telling you around and I
travel, I travel around andanytime I go on vacation I go
and I go to a nova sordo and Ibecause that's pretty much all
you have access to when you gosee what it's like on the ground
.
It's kind of bearing out whatryan's saying, that it's just a

(50:53):
lot of older people's that andand the funny thing is a lot of
them that are going.
They're going because I don'twant to make this sound like I'm
trashing the Novus Ordo.
It's just there's a lot ofpeople that go to the Novus Ordo
for, like, heaven, insurance,just because it's like, oh well,
you know, I'll go to church,I'm supposed to go to church on
Sunday.
There's a lot of people who gobecause it's kind of a cultural

(51:15):
thing where it's just well, Iwas raised this way so I'm going
to continue to go.
There are pockets, of course,of faithful Catholics who had
reversions and conversions andthose are the people listening
to the Scott Hahn tapes and thethings like that and they're
always trying to invigoratetheir parish and get them to
come to talks and come to theLenten mission and things like
that.
But the average person thatgoes to a Novus Ordo is not

(51:38):
generally like that.
A Novus Ordo is not generallylike that.
Now, what you have in the Latinmass is this concentration of
many times people who attendedthe Novus Ordo kind of got fed
up with that lackadaisicalattitude and now they're going
to a Latin mass and you havethese concentrations of people
at the Latin mass who are onfire for their faith because
they sought it out.
It's not like the Latin massproduced it, it's like they

(52:00):
sought out the Latin massbecause their faith was on fire,
right.
So now you have these hugeparishes and, like I'm telling
you, when I go to the Latin mass, the standing room only in many
times and they're all youngpeople who were on fire for the
faith who sought this out.
So it's you have very fewpeople at those Latin mass
parishes who were just therebecause this is my local parish

(52:20):
that I'm going.
You got people driving from allover the place to go to.
So I do think there's thisconcentration of people who are
on fire for their faith andlooking to make it grow and
telling people to come to theirparish, and I don't see that in
the Novus Ordo the same way.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
I don't.
I mean to say you have to havesome sort of born again
experience to be faithful.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
I don't, I don't know about that.
I don't think he's saying that.
No, no, no, I know what you'resaying to a degree.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
So, like, what you're kind of getting at is look,
there is to the issue.
Like you're totally right,people who are faithful are more
likely to.
There's almost 100, basicallyall.
It's not even discussing thepeople who attend latin mass
that don't believe in realpresence.
But again, it's like chickenegg right.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
You Okay.
So you know how they alwaysshow those surveys where it's
like 1% in the Latin mass don'tbelieve in the real presence.
I think that's like astatistical error that they
allow for, because I'm tellingyou, I've never been to a Latin
mass where the people aren'tvery intentional about going to
the Latin mass.
Every single person.
Chicken or egg, though.

(53:23):
Every single person kicking heregg though, well, no.
So in other words, it's you mayhave young kids there, but
they're all kind of new familiesthat are just discovering the
latin mass, like it's all Ifound.
Maybe the sspx is differentbecause the sspx, like they've
been at it for so long, but mostof the diocesan latin mass
parishes I've gone to are peoplevery intentionally seeking out
the latin mass because they'realready on.
It's not like a born againexperience, it's more just like

(53:45):
they.
They were seeking out a groupof people who felt the same way
they did about the faith andthey kind of congregated in
those places and I and whereasyour local nova sorda parish is
just the geographical parishthat people go because they just
happen to go and they may nothave that same firm and actually
that's not even always the case.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
A lot of times your novus ordo parishes are.
People are going there becausethey like that priest, or be
they like that the liberalparish, or they like you know,
so on, so forth.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
So yeah, that's kind of the irony of the novus ordo
too, because the novusdo, whenit was implemented, what it did
was you then have your localparish, might have a liberal
priest preaching there.
So like you'll have, yourpolitically conservative person
goes to there and he's like Idon't want to hear this nonsense
because they're talkingpolitics or whatever they're
doing.
So they go seek out anotherparish that has a more

(54:36):
conservative.
So people, even at the NovusOrdo, are parish hopping until
they find a parish that they arehearing the thing they want to
hear, even if they're notdriving the hour and a half to
go to the Latin.
It's a really weird thing thathappened with the-.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, like my grandma , for instance, who went to the
parish I grew up in.
Like you mentioned earlier, wasan old TLM adult parish but had
the Novus Ordo.
I mean that was the parish shewas in for 60 years of her life.
Within the last 10 years shehas gone to a different parish
because she doesn't like theconservative preaching of the

(55:09):
priest at the parish she was atfor 60 years.
So now she goes to a Novus Ordoparish where the guy literally
ad-libs like the Eucharisticprayer.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Yeah, yeah, I've been to.
I've been to Novus Ordoparishes where the priests
refused to implement the changesBenedict made, where they were
still saying and with your andalso with you.
And when he said the, when hesaid the, the creed, he said for
us men and us women and oursalvation, like weird things
that would happen there, youknow, and it's like you're going
to get some people that get fedup.

(55:41):
They're like I'm not dealingwith this, I'm going to find
something better.

Speaker 4 (55:44):
If the only mass was the Latin mass right.
My only thing is, the liberalpriest would just be saying
Latin mass and then giving aliberal homily.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
They could give a liberal homily.
I'll give you that, that'sdefinitely the rubrics wouldn't
allow for them Right.
So, in other words, there wouldstill be only communion on the
tongue, they would still only bealtar boys, they would still
like that, and also the prayersare very different.
So it's not.
A lot of people have thisimpression that the Novus Ordo
is is just the Latin mass inEnglish and that the Latin mass
is just the Novus Ordo in Latin.

(56:13):
And it's just not the case.
It's it's.
It's drastically different.
It's theology is drasticallydifferent in its, in its
presentation everythingdifferent in its theology is
drastically different in its, inits presentation everything.
So, yeah, you definitely couldget um priests, even look, even
the the accusation they makeabout the low masses in the
fifties, where the priests werejust mumbling their way through
and trying to get through it asquick as they could and there
was old ladies praying theirrosary.
Even that is going to be betterthan your typical like-the-mill

(56:39):
parish in a general communitywhere you have altar girls up
there kind of.
And look, the altar girls thinglends confusion to the gender
roles and there's all thesesubliminal things that really do
lend to the confusion of thefaith at the on at a novus ordo
parish and I'm not like I don'twant people to think I'm, I'm
saying if you go to the novusordo, there's nothing like that.

(57:00):
I'm not like.
I don't want people to thinkI'm.
I'm saying if you go to theNovus Ordo, there's nothing like
that.
I'm just talking in generalabout what most people's
experience is If they're nottraveling to find the unicorn,
you know.

Speaker 4 (57:09):
Yeah, sorry, no, go ahead.
They can't touch theEucharistic prayer.
That would be legitimate andjust out of the out, beyond it
and liturgical.
Yeah, that they can't touchit's kind of funny.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
I have a.
My priest is an excellentspeaker, um, but it's like I
don't even you know, sometimesif the weather's hot, he just
doesn't give one because thechurch is getting hot and I
don't really mind, because themass itself is sufficient, I
don't need the homily, whereasin the notice, ordo, um, you
know, you can have goodhomilists, and so then people

(57:40):
rob to point, they kind ofbounce parishes, and it just it
kind of reminds me of what myfamily was like as Protestants.
Is what's the differentiationbetween most Protestants?
There's a slight dogmadifference, but then I mean, in
reality you're just going towhoever gives the best sermons.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Well, look, okay.
So the local Novus Ordo I go to, when I when I have to go, like
I go to confession there andstuff, and the priest gives
fiery conservative orthodoxhomilies, but it is one of the
worst liturgies I've ever seenin my life.
It's just the, the, and I'm noteven saying it's just the goofy

(58:19):
music.
Like they sing the Our Fatherin a way that you're just like
what are they doing right now?
Like why would they do this?
Why are they singing this?
Like it's a nursery rhyme andthey'll have girls behind the
altar and it's always they havethe Eucharist, extraordinary
Ministers.
It's always the short hairlesbian coming in with the hand

(58:39):
gel going like this.
It's like it's a sacramentalfor them.
It's just so you may get thevery orthodox sermon from the
priest, but the liturgy itselfit's so like lackadaisical in
most places that I do think thishas a subliminal effect on
people and I know we weren'tcoming on here to argue nova

(58:59):
sordo versus latin.
I'm just, yeah, like I don'twant to, I don't want anything.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
I'm like pitting you down on people that and I know
we weren't coming on here toargue Novus Ordo versus Latin.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I don't want anything .
I'm like pitting you down andtelling you anything like that.
I'm just talking fromexperience of what I've gone
through.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
That's what you're saying.
I resonate with it too, butthese are.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
It's not the topic we're discussing.
I understand.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
I don't even have a problem with that.
Like, obviously I'm not goingto get into the ins and outs and
caveats of sacrosanctumconcilium, but but I don't think
you could fully now a tiredtrope used against, um,
traditionalists would be.
Well, you know, I know a priestor they all say it too.
It's weird like I know a priestwho are stumbling through the
latin mass in the olden daysit's like on cue just all the

(59:40):
time right yeah, yeah, it's thesame phrase.
They always, they always lazytrope right yeah but to pretend
like liturgical abuse is justthe offspring of one council,
when literally um I'm blankinghere like they reformat
yesterday sorry, it's getting alittle Pentecostal on you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
What Speaking in tongues, papaya?

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
papaya, papaya.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
The Council of Trent actually addressed liturgical
abuse.
Yeah, no, no.
We've seen this before manytimes, so I don't think you can
say it's necessarily the fruitof one council, right?
No, no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Look, there was a liturgical reform.
The liturgical renewal waswanted at the time of the
council and they were, and theywere faithful priests that
wanted it right.
They were like, okay, look, wehave, there there is.
There was a staleness to theliturgy in the fifties.
I'm not denying that at all.
Um and and okay.
So why don't we?
Why don't we get over to thecouncil a little bit?

(01:00:35):
Because you said you don'tthink that, uh, you could pin
the blame for all the thingswe're seeing on the council.
You're probably right, therewere many cultural factors that
were going on.
We're dealing with time from theEnlightenment, this whole
period of everybody you knowalready not taking their like,
learning their faith.
It was like wroughtmemorization and the catechism
and things like that.

(01:00:55):
So there might not have beenthis evangelical fervor going on
, things like that.
But you have to take intoaccount that the how important
liturgy actually is and theliturgy that built civil is like
built christian civilizationthat developed organically over
2 000 years.
Then all of a sudden getsuprooted and they, they put this

(01:01:18):
thing in place.
That I'm not saying it's invalid, I'm not saying it's like
nothing like that.
It's the Catholic mass.
Jesus Christ is present.
The Eucharist is the body andblood of Christ.
I'm not saying any of that.
But to uproot the foundation ofChristian civilization because
the mass is the foundation ofChristian civilization and just

(01:01:39):
replace it overnight the waythey did, you can't downplay the
catastrophic effects that wouldhave on the Catholic, the
Catholic mindset, the Catholicethos, like all of it.
It just, it all played a verybig factor in it.
So whether it was the soulcause or a very big cause of it,

(01:01:59):
you can't separate that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Can I feel that real quick?
And then I'd love to hear Ryan.
I'd love to hear Ryan.
I did write down some quotes,just because I couldn't memorize
them off the dome, but Isearched them out on my own.
I think that my culprit here.
I'm not going to say that therewas some sort of like vast
string of liturgical abusebefore and that carried on, or

(01:02:24):
like the priests who did Vatican.
II were forged in the fires ofVatican I.
I'm not going to make thatclaim.
What I am going to say is welive and die by catechesis.
Like in the words of St JohnVianney if man could truly
understand the mass, he woulddie of joy.
You're not going to have aperfect understanding of it, but
you need to know what's goingon.
And Vatican II, whether perfector not like it, did actually try
to address the problem ofcatechesis.
And not only that.

(01:02:45):
I think poor catechesis waslegitimately going on in the
church.
At this point I'll give yousome quotes to prove this.
Fulton Sheen, in 1946, thevenerable, said many Catholics
today are ignorant of theirfaith, more so than their
forefathers, largely due toinsufficient catechesis and poor
religious education in theiryouth, and their forefathers
largely due to insufficientcatechesis and poor religious
education in their youth.
We are suffering becauseCatholics do not know their
faith.
In the 1920s, in what was, interms of butts and pews, the

(01:03:08):
halcyon of American Catholicism,the golden age, Indianapolis'
own Archbishop Francis McConnellsaid we face a widespread
neglect of catecheticaldiscipline which imperils the
face of countless amidst growingsecular pressures in America.
In 1947, the National CatholicWelfare Conference took it a
bridge further, the inadequacyof religious education programs
in american parishes contributesto a fragile and superficial

(01:03:29):
catholic identity that thatpredates and I'll grant all
those things and I'll say, afterthe council, the catechesis got
infinitely worse.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
Infinitely worse because, like infinitely worse
Like infinitely worse right.
Even the catechesis before thecouncil was Whoa.

Speaker 4 (01:03:44):
I didn't know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
Those catechisms were being written by by those in
charge of the council.
Are we under arrest?
Yeah, what are you doing, rob?
It's like a fidget toy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Okay.
So the catechesis then getsexceedingly worse after the
council and what they're nowmissing is the experiential
catechesis of the Roman Rite,right?
So the Mass itself iscatechetical.
When you go and you treat theEucharist where you're kneeling

(01:04:18):
and you're receiving it everysingle mass, there's something
subconscious that happens inthat act.
So even if you, even if youdon't understand the Latin, the
very fact that the priest is upthere whispering you, you take
it subconsciously and you, yousay, oh man, something is
happening here.
And I know that because of thefirst couple of Latin masses I
went to and I didn't understanda thing that was going on.
It thing that was going on, ithad like a very pressing feeling

(01:04:42):
on my heart and this was justthe experience of it.
I was like, whoa, there'ssomething transcendent happening
here.
And it goes from thattranscendent experience that,
look, the Middle Ages peoplecouldn't read right, it's not
like they were going and goingfor these very deep Bible
studies, but it still convertedthe pagan world.
I mean you're talking about 98%of people were illiterate.
But there was something aboutthe mass itself and the rituals

(01:05:05):
that the Catholic churchperformed that would transform
entire cultures and it wouldcatechize them through the
liturgy and those rituals thatwe did, and when you uproot that
, it has a psychological effecton the entire culture.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I think root that it has a psychological effect on
the entire culture.
I think saint john henry newman, who's now a doctor of the
church uh, stated that in hisstudy of the traditional latin
mass he dated almost all of itsessentials to the third century.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
This is ancient like you can't just redo it in the
council now they, they didn'tand I didn't, I would, I would
warn you, I'd actually say yougot to be very.
You gotta really walk inactions and saying that, because
if you say that they fullyredid it in a way that was not
within continuity, you wouldhave to be saying that the Roman
pontiff could err in thepromulgation of the literature.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
No, yeah, Nobody's saying that.
Well, who's your?

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
have.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
So you go, I bet Okay , okay, I'm just asking.
I'm not making accusations oranything, I'm just asking.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Yeah, go ahead.
So we want to talk about myresponse to Hoosier's statement.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Go ahead, by all means, by allmeans.
I'd love to hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
I would put Vatican II kind of in a category of and
I'm not going to differentiatebetween the council and the
reforms, because that's a wholedifferent debate.
Vatican ii is just often quotedand never read the the document
.
The council is longer than thenew testament.
It didn't just change the mass,it changed everything and

(01:06:38):
that's that's really big.
Because when you that's why Ibring up John Henry Newman's
statement is when you havesomething that's gone on for
1500 plus years and then youdon't just tinker with it, you
do completely whatever you want,you can word, police me however
you want, but you changemassive amounts of it.

(01:07:01):
Then the other sacraments wehaven't even gotten to
confession.
Uh, the entire calendar.
That's really that's verystrange.
The whole calendar changes.
Um, but to your point onwhether or not it was the
culture or the actual council,there was written July of this
year.
There was an NBER paper thatcame out that said Vatican II

(01:07:23):
triggered a decline in worldwideCatholic attendance relative to
other denominations.
It looked at 66 countries, itwent back all the way to the
1920s in terms of mass retentionand it said that Catholic
relative attendance rates fell4% each decade compared to other

(01:07:46):
denominations.
Other denominations were alsohit with the culture wars of the
60s?
Okay, so if you're, but we'refalling behind them each decade
by four additional percentagepoints.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
If you're going to're gonna get okay national review.
I looked into that and I just II wanted to believe it so I
could be like, okay, I do thissort of summa theologica-esque,
I give you the most charitablething I can.
I don't buy the numbers inthere at all.
The thing is, frankly, thechurch doubled beyond even
fertility rate expectations, andafter the second vatican
council I'm not saying becauseof right now in.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
America or worldwide?

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
worldwide population worldwide populations tripled
after the Second Vatican Council.

Speaker 4 (01:08:35):
The church exploded in Africa.
That's because infant mortalityrate.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
But, rob, can I pull up an exhibit?

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
but you all hang on, hang on.
But you also have to understandthat a lot of these african
countries if we're talking about, like ebo majority and abibio
majority states in nigeria, orparts of ghana, or the people in
the ivory coast, they have like98 mass attendance rates.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
That I can do hasn't been but they they also have
like second and third wives andhigher witch doctors too no, no,
that's not, that's a.

Speaker 2 (01:09:06):
That's very uncommon, no but you're also kind of
proving the point of the, thecultural impact of changing the
mass from from a culture thatalready had it right.
So they were evangelized withthe novus ordo, but they didn't
have their, their mass takenfrom them.
It's, it's a, it's a different,it's a different animal
altogether, I would think.

Speaker 4 (01:09:25):
But the orthodox have never changed really
meaningfully like their liturgy,but the orthodox have the
lowest church attendance ratesof anybody in the west well,
that's what chisel will do.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
So yeah, um, all the growth in africa occurred before
1970.
I have a graph.
I don't know if I was able toget the graph over to rob, but I
can I did not get any emailsfrom you, just that's why I'll
post it after the debate ontwitter or send it to me on
twitter, dm to me well I

Speaker 2 (01:09:52):
did there's just too many variables with africa.
It's not a.
I just thought like I don'tlike how we're like.

Speaker 4 (01:09:59):
Oh, the church doubled in size, but all that
growth was in africa and it'sand asia, and it actually stayed
pretty stable in latin america,started to taper off 25 years
ago and now the braziliancatholic bishops conference is
reporting for the first time ina 17 year window actually an
uptick in mass attendance okay,but what are that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
what?
What version of catholicism arethey teaching?
In latin america, though,they're teaching like, um,
liberation, liberation theologyand stuff like.
That's not real, that you haveto take that into account as
well.
Right, like what are theyactually?
Because, in africa especially,you're talking about a, a third
world continent, right, soyou're talking many parts not of

(01:10:38):
it, but many parts of it arethird world continent.
These are entire villages who,like the local parish is their
life and they're living the waywe probably did before
technology really hit us, right.
So, before especially the 50sand the television comes into
play and things like that, theparish community in America was

(01:10:59):
the lifeblood of these groups ofpeople and they were all, um,
like, uh, uh, culturallycoherent.
Right, so you had your italianparish and you had your irish
parish, and you had so that thatcoherence meant something that
kept them together.
Now, once you start messingaround with, on top of, like,
all the stuff we're talkingabout, you start talking about,

(01:11:21):
like, immigration flooding in,and you're talking about the way
they did it, what they did inthe cities with, like, pushing
these ethnic communities apartand everybody moving out to the
suburbs, and things like that.
Those are big factors in it aswell, where you no longer have
that ethnic glue to keep theseparishes together.

(01:11:43):
There's so many factors.
It's not just the council, it'snot just the mass.
There are other things at playhere.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
Robert Luis Anthony goes fairly regularly.
I went almost exclusively untillike six months ago.
So no, we're not unaware.
You haven't been to the novasordo since 2018 to 2020.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
There's a split in the nova sordo which you're
apparently unaware of.
The conversation could havetaken place, and I don't even
this is ridiculous yeah, I thinkyou're just denying reality
there, but no, I think whatshe's saying is that the nova
sordo is starting to kind oflike heal.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
I have seen that I see more veils.
Um, because I go here and therefor confession, I've seen
literally a parish that Idescribed as a quasi-nursing
home.
That's how old everyone was.
I've started all of a suddenseeing people in their 20s with
veils, which is a good thing,it's a very promising sign.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
I see old women veil at the Wednesday Mass, not the
Tuesday Masses that I go to likebut they're spanish, right like
.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
That's the white, white.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Oh wow, a lot, of, a lot of polls, but white I think
I saw robert lee say that, likehe was in mexico and it's really
bad, like latin america is inan atrocious state.
Uh, 83 percent of catholics, 83percent of mexicans, identified
as as catholic in 2010.
Now it's down to 74.
In venezuela, it's gone from 81to 64 here's your, here's your.

Speaker 4 (01:13:08):
Africa by the way that's not atrocious at all
compared to the west no, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
It gets worse.
Argentina 76 to 49, this is in10 years.
66 to 55 in brazil ch.
Chile went from 61% to 53%.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
You're also bleeding Catholics to Pentecostalism down
there.
Mormonism they're on the risedown there.
It's all vile.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
That was part of Cardinal Pell's critique of the
Amazonian Synod is that we'renot even addressing these very,
very concerning statisticaldrips.

Speaker 4 (01:13:42):
Like I said, by the numbers of Adilio Cardinacere.
Brazil has cauterized thebleeding, argentina underwent
and Chile did too, and this istrue A similar period with about
a 30 to 35 year delay ofsecularization.
We see a rapid snap and decline.
They're going to go throughtheir own reckoning, that is
true, but I'm not going toslander the fidelity of the body

(01:14:04):
in Latin America just becausethe numbers have gone down 10%
in X year window.
That's nothing compared to whatwe've seen in America.
I don't think those numbers area demographic mandate.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
This is the problem is, whenever you bring up a
legitimate factual statement,apparently we're just slandering
people.
It's like, guys, if the peoplein the Titanic who rang the
warning bell for the icebergcame back down to the captain's
quarters and they said why areyou slandering the Titanic?
This ship can't sink.
We've all seen that scene inthe movie.
That's exactly what's going onin the church right now is

(01:14:34):
you've got the rich investor whosays, well, this ship can't
sink because he's emotionallyinvested in this.
And you've got the guy whobuilt the ship, looked at the
map and said we have two hoursat most.
It's a mathematical certainty.

Speaker 4 (01:14:46):
No, it actually.
I want to clarify, I want todouble down it cannot, and
here's why the second Vatican.
Look did the fifth Laterancouncil really succeed
resoundingly at its originalgoal?
I think we can both agree no,it did not.
Did the Council of Florenceunequivocally succeed?
No, was God any?

Speaker 3 (01:15:07):
less Kind of for a few years.
Yeah, I'm not making a comment.

Speaker 4 (01:15:10):
I'm not making a comment.
I'm not making a comment.
This is not me.
This is not me hitting at you.
Hang on, hang on, no, no, no.
This is not me hitting at you.
This is just me talking aboutthe general, the general
understanding we have to have,looking at this in the future of
the church.
Right in in any of this right Iwill not.
In psalm 89, 34, I will notalter my covenant.

(01:15:34):
God is faithful to us.
His covenant lives on throughthe church.
There are councils that havefailed, and the thing too is,
let's look at some of thecouncils that would have said
failed at the time can.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
Can you name a council that first followed a
drop like we've seen sincevatican 2?

Speaker 4 (01:15:48):
though I totally could really let's hear council
of nicaea in 325 arians exploded.
Afterwards constantine actuallyflipped his views in the arians
in terms, in terms of thebishops.

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
But what about?
What about?
Oh, what about?

Speaker 4 (01:16:02):
the population.
Did people stop going to mass?
Well, we don't have massattendance.
The pew research, no, butthat's a very important point,
rob.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Right, so like the bishops may have, but yeah, so
like.
That doesn't mean people stopgoing to mass and and also look
yes, no, god is faithful to hiscovenant, but there's no promise
about the american church.
It's not like he, like.
We don't know what could happenand there have been like the
faith has been decimated in themiddle east, where god
originally came to to the earth.

(01:16:28):
Right, there's no catholicismleft.
When you go into damascus nowyou go, so it doesn't just
because the covenant will neverlike, god will never break his
covenant and the gates of hellwill never prevail.
But that doesn't mean therecan't be insane amounts of
upheaval and abandonment of thechurch, because I think the main
crisis we're dealing with rightnow is a crisis of

(01:16:49):
unfaithfulness, and that hashappened throughout all of
salvation history.
Where, where Israel abandonedGod?
Oh God, I'll let you go.

Speaker 4 (01:16:58):
I mean, I feel like I'm in, I feel like such a you
know no, it's okay.
No, we're just we're just freetalking nobody's during, during
the count, and I could thecouncil of chalcedon too.
During the time, a lot ofpeople started saying, well,
you're just preachinghistorianism again.
And the monophysitists a lot ofthem ended up becoming,
ultimately their descendantsbecame gnostics and muslims.
Um, it's not a clear linearprogression, but two the Arian

(01:17:21):
heresy exploded.
It wasn't until Theodosius thatwe saw this sort of reversal,
because of the faithful.
The faithful, if we're in aremnant church, we are no less
in a church to which God is, Iwould agree with that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
I mean, look at the look at the Protestant
Reformation.
Protestant Reformation, I meanthe church was decimated in
Europe, Right, and you only havethe church continuing on with
this with with the robustnessthat it does, because then we
evangelize in Central and SouthAmerica, Right.
So now you have Our Ladyappearing to Juan Diego and you
get this robust new SecondChristendom.

Speaker 3 (01:17:55):
The Jesuits reconverted most of.
Europe prior to theEnlightenment.

Speaker 2 (01:18:01):
You still had a devastation of the Church.
You no longer had Catholickings.
It was a complete.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
But it wasn't because .

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
But that wasn't the fault of Trent.
Trent was a response to that.
Yeah, trent was a response tothat.

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
Yeah, Trent was a response to that.

Speaker 4 (01:18:15):
Would, you blame the Lateran Council for the
Reformation.
No, that would be nonsensical.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
But the Protestant Reformation didn't occur because
Catholics stopped going to Mass.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
Right, it was a top-down forcing them right.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Basically German princes who didn't want to be
under Thomas Brown.
Yeah, it was political, and thedifference between trent and
vatican, too, is trent.
I mean, they literally doubleddown on almost everything and
basically said well, we're justgoing to go into the culture now
, um, create broke art, all thisstuff, uh, funded beautiful
cathedrals, all that.

(01:18:48):
They didn't change the mass orthe sacraments or the calendar.
In fact, they said that if youit's in a canon in trent, that
if you claim that the mass haserrors and is therefore
abrogated, you are anathema.
It was the complete oppositeand it was very successful, not
in its time.

Speaker 4 (01:19:08):
It actually took a very long time not 80 years.

Speaker 3 (01:19:11):
There was, there was.
I mean you had francis de salewithin a decade or two after
trent, reconverting 80 000 in ingeneva.
So no, no, it's not like ittook 80 years and we're seeing
it accelerate now, 80 yearsafter vatican ii.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Well, the truth is for a new convert.
And you, you do have a prettygood grasp on catholic catholic
history.

Speaker 4 (01:19:33):
I'll give you that but the thing too is, like trent
, the mass is only unchanged.
Like I care very dearly aboutmy faith, like, and just to be
able to talk to you guys aboutthis, like it matters, like this
is the fact that, ultimately,like, we are looking towards the
same thing, which is the, youknow, we're just arguing about.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
Yeah, I would.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
I would argue.
All four of us deeply love theCatholic faith.
We deeply love the churches.
This is a conversation and it'sokay to even disagree about
this.
It's not a matter of faith andmorals either.
Like you can, you can have adifferent position.
It's fine the language might'vesaid the same.

Speaker 4 (01:20:08):
the Gallican right of the Catholic, the Gallican form
of the Catholic mass was notthe same as the unchanging Roman
rite.
It was only unchanged in thepapal states, and Trent is what
standardized that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
Yeah, I mean to minor degrees.
You'd have to get a liturgicalexpert in here, which I don't
think any of us are.

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
But from most of what I've heard is that Trent kind
of standardized certain localpractices and local deviations,
but it was largely unchangedthroughout most Largely
unchanged, and Trent basicallysaid if there is a custom that
is not longer than 200 years old, we don't want it, because it
was right at the time of theReformation.
So all these new things werepopping up.

(01:20:50):
So Trent was like, look, acustom needs to be 200 years old
for you to be able to keep itin your mess.

Speaker 3 (01:20:57):
The Gallican Rite wasn't abrogated.
It continued to exist.
The Sam Rite continued to exist.
The Mozo-Arabic Rite continued.
It wasn't like the Novus Ordo,where that was imposed on
literally the entire Roman Riteor Latin Church.
I should say so it's definitelydifferent there.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
I mean, I guess the question I would ask, like if
people are on the fence, is likemy position is essentially that
it looks bad for the churchesthat follow the reforms of
Vatican II.
But if the data is lookingreally good for traditionalist
parishes and we all love thechurch that's the critique

(01:21:37):
people throw back attraditionalists.
It's like oh, you just wantthings the way you want them.
Well, if the future,statistically, is looking more
traditionalist in its liturgy, Icould ask the exact same
question to more of themodernist bend.
Or people who attend the NovusOrdo Do you actually care if
it's going to be the?
Or people who attend the novusordo is like do you actually
care if it's going to be thetraditional latin mass or the

(01:21:58):
novus ordo, as long as thechurches are healthy, we've
stabilized hoosier I.
I hope you're right and thatyou've hit kind of this stopping
point where you're going to getyour foot in and then start
climbing again.
But it's putting a lot of eggsin a basket of data we don't
have yet.
Like if gen z just explodes,maybe.
But my question is is just likedo we actually do?

(01:22:20):
Do people who attend the nocusordo have such an idea?
And that's my point about rome.
Does rome have such anideological opposition to this?
Okay, at the moment, it seems.

Speaker 4 (01:22:30):
So you make a really good point, right.
First off, um, I believe pleasedon't quote me on this, but I'm
I'm over 95 sure the gallicanright was abrogated, I believe
only the toledo right, as doneby um local members of the
dominican order, and then theambrosian right and the diocese
of milan are the only survivingsurviving to today yeah, I don't
know the extent I might, soagain you might have me on that.

(01:22:52):
Look, at the end of the day,like you make a lot of good
points, the future is going tobe a lot more traditional.
Like there is a craving.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
We hope, but we should all hope that, like even
you should hope that right likewe, we, even if it's not tlm,
that's what we should we shouldhope the future is more
traditional, because the, the,the craziness of the council
look so like right after the1960s and 70s, like there was
insanity in the mass, likeyou're talking experimentation

(01:23:20):
on levels that are.
And then John Paul II came inand he tried to settle some of
that down.
Benedict even more tried tosettle it down.
Then Benedict gave us some morein Pontificum and he was hoping
that it would even more settle.
That Like the mayhem of the 70sand 80s is.
I mean, we've had priests.
We had to have a dioceserecently come out and say, look,

(01:23:41):
this priest was baptized and wehave video of it.
And the priest at the parishsaid we baptize you in the name
of the Father Son and HolySpirit which means every wedding
he performed, every confessionhe heard, every mass he
celebrated was invalid.
Like that is insane to thinkthat things were so wild in this

(01:24:01):
time period, during thisliturgical change, that there
may have been millions of peoplewho had invalid sacraments
because the freaking priestswere so off the wall.
So, luckily I don't think itwas a one-off.
That's what I'm trying to tellyou.
Man like that, that dude for adiocese to make that
announcement right, it's becausethere was video evidence.

(01:24:21):
I'm telling you, in the 70s and80s things were so nuts when
those back, when those changeswere first coming into effect,
there were many invalid masses,said during that period was also
.

Speaker 4 (01:24:32):
It was in the diocese of Los Angeles.
He was also an immigrant.

Speaker 2 (01:24:34):
No, no, it wasn't.
It wasn't Los Angeles.
It wasn't Los Angeles, it wasin the Midwest.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
Um, uh you're thinking of the.
You might be thinking of thesangria invalid masses which
were in Kansas city.
That's very possible Me orHoosier Hoosier, I don't.
I don't.
Off the top of my head, I don'tremember where the the bad
baptism was, but I know the StGreer was in Kansas city.

Speaker 4 (01:24:59):
The other one, I don't know, maybe Milwaukee,
Detroit, Detroit, I think.
I digress, Um and look it's amore.
I mean, it's a moral, obviously, to restrict the TLM, Like it's
terrible.
This is happening and I don'tthink any of the justifications
have been given are legitimate.
But I don't think that they'regoing to make up the majority of
the church.
I think the future of thechurch needs to be people who
take what is in the mass andthey care and they understand it

(01:25:23):
.

Speaker 2 (01:25:25):
I agree with that, except I'll add this caveat is
that there is a catechesis inproper liturgy, right.
So I don't think it would be agood thing for the Novus Ordo to
thrive the way it is in itscurrent state.
So if you're having the unicorn, that's one thing, but in its

(01:25:46):
current state, with the altar,girls and all that stuff, I do
think that there's a subtlecatechesis that happens there,
even if you have the mostorthodox homily.
That has a subtle effect on thechildren that are attending
those masses, on the averageparishioner that's attending
those that aren't doing whatwe're doing.
Look, you're on fire for yourfaith, you're digging in, you're

(01:26:06):
going back, you're readingbooks.
That is a beautiful thing, butthat's just not the average
person's experience, and theaverage person's experience of
Catholicism is their localliturgy, and that's just the
fact of the matter.

Speaker 3 (01:26:18):
I also think once you have children and see how they
respond to the two forms, Ithink you get this instinctual
understanding of why there issuch a difference in retention
rate.
Yeah, my children seem to soak,you know, soak up the tlm and I
, I mean, I believe that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:38):
But the thing is like I, there is obviously an
element that just regards thecosmic mystery, so much in the
tridentine form, like it'sobviously there.
I don't think that that has tobe absent for the nova sordo, I
don't think that for many, Idon't think that it's
necessarily unicorn.
But also, what I'll say is, Ido have faith at the end of the
day.
I think we all agree thepontiff cannot.

Speaker 2 (01:26:57):
Yeah, no, no, no.
None of us are set of a contesthere.
None of us are anywhere nearthat.
No, no, no.

Speaker 4 (01:27:03):
I'm not accusing anybody of even saying that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
Yeah, no, none of us are.
I would never even.
Yeah, whatever, it's not at all.
I'm talking about theexperiential level of
Catholicism and just how thefaith is being passed on.
And look, I'll also say this,the reason they wanted to

(01:27:27):
restrict the Latin mass becauseI hear it all the time it's like
, oh, you know, the Latin mass,it's only 1% of Catholics, right
I think.
It's the time it's like, oh,you know, the Latin mass, it's
only 1% of Catholics, right?
I don't, I think it's more than1%, um, and also, if it was
really only 1% and we're soinsignificant, they wouldn't
care about restricting it.
They just go.
Who cares?
It's 1%, they're not even youknow they're not.
But the problem is they do seethat there is this fervor for

(01:27:49):
this more traditional faith, andI think the people that are in
are still very connected to thecouncil and they see the Latin
mass itself as a repudiation ofthe council.
They see the Latin mass as arepudiation of the council.
And then you're talking aboutpeople who are very committed

(01:28:10):
ideologically to what went on atthat council and the things
that happened after, the reformsthat that happened after, and I
don't think they're willing toadmit, man, we messed up, like
it's very difficult for peopleto actually see their own
mistakes and come out and say,okay, we, we made a mistake here
.
But I do think that as timegoes on and people are less

(01:28:31):
ideologically connected to thatcouncil, some reforms are going
to be made and there's going tobe a lot of things that are
changed and things will leanmore traditional, even if the
Novus Ordo stays.
I think the Novus Ordo will notstay in its current form.
I think it will definitely.
I think we'll definitely see areturn to all the rail, even
though you see this hard pushright now by a lot of the diets,

(01:28:51):
by a lot of the bishops tryingto say we're getting rid of
altar rails, we're not allowingkneeling for communion, all
those things.
That is the last-ditch effortsof a dying revolution, in my
opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:29:02):
While the demographic decline may accelerate due to
the boomers dying off.
The boomer bishops are going todie off too.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
They are no matter what, and you're going to get
and look, you'll hear it all thetime like the seminaries are
way more you know orthodoxtraditional things like that.
Like those guys.
I agree, yeah, but eventuallythat's going to come up and
become a factor and people won'tbe ideologically connected to
the council anymore.
It'll be this thing in the pastand it's like okay, council

(01:29:31):
anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
It'll be this thing in the past and it's like okay,
we got to deal with the actualproblems we're facing.

Speaker 4 (01:29:34):
So and that's what I think we're gonna get to sorry
yeah, please, ryan.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
That that was just the end of my tweet, was kind of
the.
The silver lining there wasthat the dam that hasn't broken
is the conservative seminaries.
I mean, like I forget whatpodcast I was or a youtube
channel I was watching, but like, look, when the bishop bans
these teal on in the diocese,according to this guest and I

(01:30:00):
apologize, I can't remember hisname they still happen.
Underground Seminarians arebeing banned from learning the
Latin Mass it's on YouTube Massof the Ages.
Put out an instructional guideand the seminarians are learning
it.
They're praying the hours insecret.
This is going to explode aboveground eventually.
Um, and a lot of people thinkthe novus ordo will never be

(01:30:21):
eclipsed by traditional parishesif the numbers hold, and of
course that's absurd becausethey never hold.
But if these current numbershold I came out with roughly by
the year, uh, 2100, the, iftraditionist custodians are
repealed and we kind of have afree-for-all, the traditional
parishes will eclipse the Noah'sorder parishes by 2100?

(01:30:41):
, 2100.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Yeah, we're not going to make it that long.

Speaker 1 (01:30:44):
No, but we're traditional.
We believe in leaving somethingfor our kids and our grandkids.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
We're going to see the Jewish Messiah before then.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Oh yeah, yeah, you're on that whole like end of the
world 21, I mean I'm taking it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
I just had to throw it in there it's also gonna
watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:01):
Yeah, like four more years okay.
2100, okay fine 2100.

Speaker 4 (01:31:05):
Uh, you know, everybody will be.
Strickland will be pope, bishopstrickland.
Be Pope 2100.

Speaker 2 (01:31:11):
Bishop Strickland, be Pope 2100, boy.
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:31:16):
So, like in all seriousness, like at the end of
the day, that authenticity isthere and I think, like we both
correct me if I'm wrong haveadmired deeply, especially as
then Cardinal Ratzinger, thenPope Benedict, sort of what he
believed in regards to comfortin Latin and vernacular and sort
of understanding andappreciating both and taking the

(01:31:37):
best.
And as we I don't want to gettoo optimistic here as we go
forward, as we get priests whoare moved from the spirit of the
council, where and I don'tthink this is a fault of the
council, let's be real here itwas a rough time for confession,
it was, it was a rough timeright you will get priests who
can actually appreciatetradition while looking at the
council, looking at the new form, and they can be comfortable in

(01:31:58):
both and benedict's visionmight be realized in a way
before had not.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
I'm not, I'm not making predictions, but no, I I
look, I, I have to say, like Ilove benedict, I, I grew up
under benedict.
Like I'm, I'm a lifelongcatholic, right.
So, like I'm, I'm a jp2catholic, I'm a benedict
catholic, but I, I, I and I, andI did like, when you read some

(01:32:27):
more of them, it's a beautifulthing, but I don't, I don't know
, man, I don't, I don't know ifit's, I don't know if realizing
benedict's vision is going to bethe answer to this.
I think it's, I think it's way.
I think the problem is waydeeper than that and I think
that I think there'll be anotherrevolution, like there was in

(01:32:48):
the 60s, but in the oppositedirection.
I just just do and I don't knowwhy so many young Catholics are
against that Like they did itto the generation in the 60s,
they had a revolution and theypushed that revolution on the
church and that revolution cameto fruition in the council and
everything after the council.
It's like, why can't the younggeneration that's coming up now

(01:33:10):
do the same thing, but inreverse, and say no, no, we want
, we want our inheritance back,like you guys tried to take
things from us that should neverhave been taken from us.
I can understand we're nottalking about the documents of
the council, even, whatever.
I don't want to debate that.
I'm talking about, like, thepraxis of we had and the like

(01:33:37):
everything was just overturned,that I think we've starved three
generations at this point ofthe inheritance that they were
owed by their forefathers.
So I hope that.
I hope that the youngergeneration comes up and says,
hey, we want some of this stuffback.
Yeah, it's not just the mass, Imean.

Speaker 1 (01:33:52):
I recently discovered what up and says, hey, we want
some of this stuff back.
Yeah, it's not just the Mass, Imean, I recently discovered
what Ember Days Ember Days likeright off the bat.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
Rogation Days.

Speaker 2 (01:34:01):
Rogation Days, ember Days, all these things, these
beautiful things that I justlearned about in the past five
years, seven years, st Martin's,Lent.

Speaker 3 (01:34:08):
Yeah, Really really.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
These are really genuinely beneficial things to
the catholic faithful, like youwe were.
We were just told these thingswere just superstitious.
You don't need to worry aboutall that and this outpouring of
mercy to the point where peopleno longer like had had a had a
deep connection to theircatholic identity anymore.
I think a lot of that stuff isthe reason people lost their
deep connection to theircatholic identity and I think we

(01:34:38):
have to reclaim that.
And I don't think there's any.
I don't think it's, I don'tthink it's um, because you, I, I
think a lot of people viewtrads like a lot of like your,
your typical catholic novus ordogoing cat, and I hate even I
don't want that to be apejorative, I'm just your
average Catholic when they seetrads, they think these trads
are mean and they think they'rebetter than the other Catholics.

(01:34:59):
And it's not that I think theysee something that was beautiful
that they're just learningabout and they're like, hey, why
the heck was that taken from me?
Like let's bring that thingback.
And they're doing their best tokind of put some of the puzzle
pieces back together, becauseeven the trads aren't living
what a traditional lifestyle wasback before, you know, before

(01:35:20):
all the changes, it's findingthings that benefit us and our
family and we're like, hey, letme put this piece back in, hey,
let's add this tradition andlet's do this, and it's the best
we could do piecemeal Right,because all the infrastructure
and the culture's kind of beenripped out and so we're just
trying to put it back together.

Speaker 1 (01:35:36):
um, I mean, you know, a lot of a lot of people think
that, like most traditionalistswant to ban the novus ordo.
Um, I'm been very pessimisticon it, but I I wouldn't even
take that stance.
Like, let's be honest, a lot ofus will sometimes claim, you
know, in a negative sense, oh,it's the master, the mass for
the boomers.
Well, quite honestly, at thispoint, fine, I mean, it's not
like they're going anywhere.
You know, they're notapostatizing or leading the

(01:35:59):
faith.
If a boomer attends the NovusOrdo, he or she is probably
staying, but they got their massand so why can't the young
people now have their mass?

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
You know that's a, really that's a fair question.

Speaker 1 (01:36:27):
That's a really good.
That's a fair question.
That's a fair question to ask.
And one other plug I'll make isfor the traditional rite of
confession.
Like Anthony and Rob talk a lot,you guys like, honestly, I
think are the only ones who kindof talk about lust with young
men and how you got to say likeyou are fighting with one hand
tied behind your back if you'regoing to the new rite of
confession.
I actually tracked my ownstatistics, which is really
nerdy, but I found a 200%increase 200% increase in the
gaps between confessions when Istarted attending the old rite.

(01:36:48):
There's an exorcism attached tothat and you're just better
protected for longer you havemore attached to that.
You're just better protectedfor longer you have more grace
through that.
I think it can be reallydetrimental, especially to young
men, if they're struggling withcertain things and they're
immediately attacked as theystep out of the confessional
booth.
The demonic is just attackingagain and you're just in this

(01:37:11):
slugout war and you're fightingwith one iron time tied behind
your back.
I think if you, if you have theopportunity to get to an older
eddie confession, try to go asmuch as possible.

Speaker 4 (01:37:22):
It's immensely powerful see, you put me in an
impossible spot, because nowyou're making me attack a lot of
things that to me sound reallygood.
I want to actually expand uponsomething you said, where it's
like you're talking aboutreclaiming the inheritance, it's
like we I don't buy, likewhat's the shining city in the
hill?
It's not america, it's thechurch, but america has had this

(01:37:43):
opportunity to be the treasuryof the church.
I mean, when europe failed,america was thriving, but at the
end of the day, this isn'tgoing to be purely.
Obviously, you know, lex, umLex.
Lex, lex Lex but at the end ofthe day, this has to be in the

(01:38:05):
truest sense, from top down.
Like this is not merely aboutthe liturgy, it's so much bigger
, and that's what I am actuallyvery passionate about.
If Jesus Christ is not reigningin the hearts, souls and minds
of every man, woman and child,and I, I don't think, obviously.
I think that the importance ofmass and church and people's
lives matters a lot.
If people are just kowtowing tosecular pressures that have

(01:38:28):
existed since the enlightenmentand since, as I think ryan aptly
pointed out, french revolution,like we are going to have a
country that is utterly bereftof everything good.

Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
Yeah, we're going to world, a world bereft of it.
And yeah, no, look it's.
It's like never been a moreimportant time to be a saint,
but in some ways, it's neverbeen an easier time, because if
you just live out your vocationthe way you're supposed to you,
you are doing something heroic.
Now, yes, if you just live outyour vocation and you are

(01:38:56):
attending mass and you aretrying to be the best Catholic
you can, it is a heroic thing todo in the modern world.

Speaker 4 (01:39:05):
Michael JC Dew, the answer to your question is yes.
Yes, I would, but I think atthe end of the day, we have hope
too.
At the end of the day, like wehave, we have hope too.
It's at the end of the day.
Um, look, if my people, whomare called by my name, should
humble themselves and pray andseek my face and turn from their
wicked ways, then I will heartheir prayers and I will heal

(01:39:25):
their land.
I will hear their prayers and Iwill heal their land.
We have hope.
We need to be the hope we work.
The way you worship isincredibly important, but, as
you've said, the new mass isvalid.
The body of Christ extendsbeyond an expression of the form
you do.
It's taking what you get inworship, which is secondary to

(01:39:46):
nothing.
And then you go out there andyou actually live it out and you
build the kingdom and you liveout the sermon on the mount and
the biggest part of the churchis worship.
And then what you do with thatworship and you are enlivened in
Christ until your will becomeslike that of God and you build
the kingdom of God on earth.
That's what we need to focus on.
I think that extends.
That's not secondary to liturgy, but in terms of what we're

(01:40:07):
failing to do.
I think that at this point intime, that is primary in where
we are failing.

Speaker 3 (01:40:13):
Would it be fair the?
Ends of worship, though, aren'tfor us, they're for God.

Speaker 4 (01:40:18):
No, I agree wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly,
but that's not what I was tryingto get at all.

Speaker 1 (01:40:22):
Would it be fair?
If I asked someone, I've beenproperly catechized and I simply
find that the traditional Latinmass better mirrors what I
learned in catechesis than thenew mass does, Then I think I
should have every right to thengo to the traditional Latin mass
.

Speaker 2 (01:40:42):
I don't think he would argue against that.

Speaker 4 (01:40:44):
No, he wouldn't argue , you should have every right.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
Look, and I and I and I think even this conversation
like, like having a conversationwhere there's clearly like, a
difference of opinion butnobody's like, everybody loves
one another, everything's fine,right, like nobody.
There's nobody beefing on hereor anything, it's just you can
have the, and that's the otherthing.
I think we have to learn that,um, having a difference of

(01:41:08):
opinion does not mean dislike,and that's that's one thing I've
noticed happening an awful lotlately.
It's like if you, if you saysomething that somebody
disagrees with it, you becometheir enemy all of a sudden,
especially when you're nottalking about doctrine and dogma
and things like that.
You got to be able to haveconversations about this stuff
and and it like for me to seeyounger guys like you guys on

(01:41:30):
fire for your faith and sopassionate about this stuff.
It's a hopeful thing in itself,like, even forget the
demographics and stuff it's thatgod is still changing hearts
and minds.
Despite this corrupt culturethat we all live in and not some
cases, not even in like, inspite of the fact that all these
things are happening, god isstill moving men's hearts and

(01:41:52):
bringing them into the churchand bringing them to the faith.
It's an amazing thing, um, andyou know the the arguments about
liturgy like the these, thesedebates about liturgy should be
done in charity, the way we didtonight.
And it's, it's it.
I'm still very hopeful aboutthe church.
I don't whether whether we dosee some cliffs on the horizon
and things shifting and changing.
I just know God's still movingamongst his people.

Speaker 3 (01:42:16):
This is Anthony right now.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
All are welcome.
All are welcome.

Speaker 4 (01:42:25):
All are welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:42:29):
Such a diplomat.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
Rob went old school Holding the phone into the mic.

Speaker 3 (01:42:39):
I'm holding.

Speaker 2 (01:42:39):
Anthony.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
I'm really glad that I've never heard that before.

Speaker 2 (01:42:45):
Lucky we might have to do a.
Novus Ordo bangers episode onenight.
We hope it's not even close yet.
The motor's still not in.

Speaker 4 (01:42:55):
I'm not a'm not a big modern.
I think I think the modernmusic we can agree it's in it.
Look at the end of the day mytake on this real quick.
This is kind of external towhat we're talking about at the
end of the day.
Like I think that if you'rejust gonna have to listen to
music all the time, you'rebetter off listening to a lot of
worship not contemporarychristian necessarily, but a lot
of worship music than you arelistening to like motley crew.

(01:43:16):
But it does not belong in themass, it's it?

Speaker 2 (01:43:19):
no, yeah, yeah, I think, look, I that's the thing.
I think a lot of um, even the,even the young novus ordo
attending, uh, catholics, I see,on fire for their faith, they
want more traditional stuff.
They want gregorian chant atfaith.
They want more traditionalstuff, they want Gregorian chant
at their mass.
They want an altar rail attheir mass.
So in that respect you guys aretrads.

(01:43:42):
You don't want the wacky clownmass, you want the unicorn Novus
Ordo.
If you can find it, and if youhad a Latin mass that was around
the block, you'd probablyattend that.
And if you had a Latin massthat was around the block, you'd
probably attend that.
So that, so, look you, you,it's not, it's not anybody's
fault that the bishopsimplemented this thing, it's not
, it's just what we have.
So, uh, I'm going to agree.

(01:44:03):
His LARPers are bad, I'm goingto leave you guys with some
closing thoughts and uh, andclosing thoughts and uh, and rob
and I we were going to do localsite, but this went very long,
so we're not going to do localstonight, but maybe we'll do
something else over the weekendor something.
We'll figure it out, me and robwill figure that out.
Um, but yeah, if you guys haveany closing thoughts, I mean, I
think there's a really reallyinteresting conversation.

(01:44:24):
If you guys stop playing withyour calculators, all right,
who's you?

Speaker 4 (01:44:33):
you go first, and then we'll let ryan do the give
his closing statement I thinkwe're only here because we both
love the truth and this isobviously, like, not necessarily
the most pressing truth thereis.
I mean, we live in a worldwhere, like you've said, people
don't believe, and this is trueacross denominations.
They they bury their heads inthe sand.
They don't.
It's not even that they don'tengage with religion, it's that

(01:44:57):
they judge, they deem god anunrighteous judge because he's
mean.
And if that is the culture thatwe live in, then frankly, I
think I'm not.
Again, I want to be carefulbecause I've seen people in the
comments.
I'm not saying liturgy issecondary, it's not, but we have
the valid form like we have.
There's not like mass.
Obviously there's abuses, butthere's not mass error.
We have the valid form Like wehave.
There's not like mass.
Obviously there's abuses, butthere's not mass error there, at
the end of the day.
Like we need to be a pillar oftruth, not only in the practices

(01:45:20):
of the church, the strongestmeans of grace.
We also need to be pillars ingoing out there and in building
the kingdom and in evangelizingand teaching people the truth
and it might be truths theydon't want to hear.
But I think that me and Ryanboth love the truth.
I think that me and Ryan bothhave this sort of zeal for the

(01:45:40):
gospel and I think that we'recoming at this from a good angle
.
We might have slightdifferences, slight different,
you know, different scruples onwhatever, but it all comes down
to this we have unity in thespirit and in unity, truth, and
truth builds unity, and we lovethe kingdom of God.
We're servants of the kingdomof God, so anyways that's all I

(01:46:05):
got to say.

Speaker 1 (01:46:06):
Well, thanks, hoosier .
I just wanted to say um, beforethis even started, I said to
myself I think I said to Rob toolike maybe I didn't, but I was
thinking.
I said to myself, I think Isaid to Rob too, like maybe I
didn't, but I was thinking.
I said, man, I got to respectHoosier for coming on here.
Three I mean not three againstone, but you knew we're avoiding
.
Babylon's tone was you knew myposition, um, and you were
coming at it with, in my opinion, not a lot of ammo.

(01:46:28):
Um, you took the hardest road,so I've got to say I respect you
for that.
What I'll say is I know a lot ofpeople who attend the standard
Mass right now, the Novus Ordobut they start asking questions.
They're so curious and theywant to know about Latin Mass.

(01:46:50):
I go on occasion to a Latininnovus ordo um right in downtown
nashville.
So you've got a ton of likehungover tourists trying to
figure out their um, how to gettheir obligation, and you can
tell because they come in inshorts and flip-flops oh yeah,
watching, and they don't evenlike look it up.
So watching them go from thefirst five minutes in utter

(01:47:14):
horror to like what did I getmyself into?
To at the end of the mess.
Particularly the men are just Idon't know what the word is to
describe them, but they are sothrilled and you can tell
they're going to go home andGoogle where they can find that
back home.
I think it's very healthy tocall out problems in the church.

(01:47:36):
We shouldn't downplay it.
We should be watchful, as theDesert Fathers said.
We should be watchful both inour own lives and with the
church, and I'd rather be alittle over-pessimistic so we
can start introducing people tomore reverent liturgy, whether
it be a Latin Novus Ordo, thetraditional Latin Mass, because
I just see it over and overagain.
I have Protestant relatives, Ihave Jewish relatives who come

(01:47:59):
to the Latin Mass and they'rejust blown away by it.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
In itself, it's an evangelistic tool.
When people see it, they'relike what the heck is this?
It's so alien to anythingthey've ever experienced.
That's what I've.

Speaker 1 (01:48:14):
I've experienced at least.
So anyways, I appreciateeveryone for hosting this and
Hoosier kudos to you.
Man Like this was a tough oneyeah.

Speaker 4 (01:48:21):
God bless, yeah, yeah For the record in 10 years.

Speaker 3 (01:48:24):
we're we're coming back to this to see who was
right and we'll declare thewinner.

Speaker 4 (01:48:30):
Perfect, perfect.
Okay, I'll be there.

Speaker 2 (01:48:32):
The I'm like I said, I'm actually very happy to see
any young guys that care thismuch about the church itself.
So, look, I don't think thiswas like a fundamental
disagreement about anything.
It was more just a I I.
I think Hoosier kind of lookedat, ryan's view is pessimistic.
But I do think Ryan's view isoptimistic, depending on how

(01:48:54):
you're looking at it, because II clearly like have I side more
with Ryan's opinion that I dothink the future is tradition.
I don't know how long it'sgoing to take to get there.
I don't, you know, I didn'tcrunch numbers like you guys,
but I just see it on on theground and I, I see, I see that
people are drawn more to thetraditional form of catholicism

(01:49:17):
and and whether that's areverend novus ordo or it's a
latin mass, I think that is likeall the, all the young people
that are into catholicism now,even all the, all the uh
influencers and stuff like that.
They all want reverence,everybody.
I don't know, I don't knowanybody's still fighting for the
, the wacky stuff in the liturgythat's going on in the Novus
Ordo.
Mike Lewis, yeah, but thoseguys are, you know.

(01:49:38):
So I'm glad you both came on,man.
This was an interestingconversation.
Do you guys have anything topromote?

Speaker 1 (01:49:48):
No, I don't have a channel.

Speaker 2 (01:49:52):
Twitter handles, or it's just at Hoosier.

Speaker 4 (01:49:56):
At Hoosier underscore EC.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
And Ryan, I don't even know what mine is.
It's like at LPH Hitney.
I don't know what I can.
It is Just look up Taylor Manonif you want to follow it.
But yeah, I don't have anything.

Speaker 2 (01:50:11):
Throw these guys a Twitter follow.

Speaker 4 (01:50:15):
Gigi said one thing where he's like you know new
people be careful about.
I really don't.
I have a good mind forunderstanding a lot of things.
I don't wade into my ownopinions or my own
interpretations.
I try to.
I where I can decipher things,I might state them.
I don't try to go beyond andcome up with theories in that
regard like when do you get mostof your opinions on the council
from?

Speaker 2 (01:50:35):
Like, what, what, what apologists are you
listening to about the council?
That I was curious about.
Like are you, are you listeningto guys like Scott Hahn, or who
are you checking out?

Speaker 4 (01:50:44):
I've watched like one Joe Hashmire video.
Like I'm not, I kind of came upwith this on my own.

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):
It's a lot of osmosis .
I actually have a very goodfriend of mine who is asking
about the council and it's like,oh, I have so many answers but
I don't know as much as I should.
I mean, the council is longerthan the New Testament.

Speaker 2 (01:51:07):
Yeah Well, no, Hoosier, I'm saying, like, when
you say, like the spirit of thecouncil and stuff like that,
where are you hearing that from?
Are you hearing that fromBenedict's writings?
Where are you like becausethese are very specific phrases,
that you're that?
You're saying that you knowthat you don't come up with
something like that on your own.
You read that somewhere.

Speaker 4 (01:51:24):
you know, like, that's what I'm just curious,
obviously, to form opinions likeI have to engage with realist
what's being said on both ends,with realism what's being said
on both ends.
Right, that's just the fact,right.
So I, I listen to them and alot of where I hear spirit of
vatican too is like just onsocial media and it's from, yeah
, their writings, absolutely, um.
And then I just expand uponthat.
But I don't really try to cutmy own cloth, I just try to

(01:51:47):
understand what the numberswould tell me and then also
understand that I think thatsecularism and modernism pre
date and we give ourselves toomuch credit if we make it seem
like the councils.

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Oh no, secularism and modernism Very definitely
predate the council.
I mean it's yeah.
I mean my opinions have changedon this over.
So my, my, my opinion is justunderstanding humanity, like
human humans and ritual, by evenlooking at ancient
civilizations and how importantritual was to them and how

(01:52:19):
important ritual is to passingon the thing to the next
generation, and that's kind oflike.
Strangely, my opinion on theliturgy changed by watching
freaking the.
What was that show on Netflix?
Rob, the Ancient Civilizationshow.

Speaker 4 (01:52:39):
I gotta clarify I definitely read like the Doctors
and the Magisterium, like Iwasn't just coming up with stuff
on my own.

Speaker 3 (01:52:45):
No, no, no.
Which is exactly what Anthonydid.

Speaker 2 (01:52:47):
My opinion on how important liturgy itself is was
from watching that freaking guydoing the.

Speaker 3 (01:52:55):
Graham.

Speaker 2 (01:52:55):
Hitchcock, graham Hitchcock's thing.
So like seeing ancientcivilizations and these giant
monoliths and the myths thatsurrounded these things and the
religions that they passed on, Iwas like it started making me
think deeper about ritual andhow important it is to pass on,
like the, the memory of yourpeople to the next generation,

(01:53:18):
and it has so much to do withritual, and that's kind of what
made me change my opinion on theLatin mass and the Nova sort.
I wasn't listening to TaylorMarshall, it wasn't anything
like that.
It wasn't even going to theLatin mass.
Well, it definitely was goingto the Latin mass, but it was
more understanding ancientcivilizations.
That made me go, wow, you can'tjust uproot this ritual from

(01:53:39):
people and think there's notgoing to be these massive
consequences to it.
So but, yeah, all right, it wasvery nice meeting both of you.
Man, I'm very happy to see thiswas a cordial conversation.
Yeah, yeah, it was cordialconversation.
Yeah, um, yeah, it was it.
It was a good combo.
I think anybody that stuckstuck around until we got past
that first half hour of uh, justyou know, whatever, I think

(01:53:59):
that you guys got to enjoy areally good show.
So, absolutely, um, yeah, maybewe'll have you guys uh, back
for a local segment or something, just to just to get to know
you guys a little morepersonally or something.

Speaker 3 (01:54:08):
So um, I have to dig into that jewish relatives
comment there.
Uh, ryan my analyst.

Speaker 4 (01:54:17):
I'm a straight, I'm a straight, I'm a straight paise
on, but also like okay, I I'mnot just coming with my own
opinions like I I have a mind.

Speaker 2 (01:54:23):
No, I don't think you are.
I don't think you candefinitely read into it.
Yeah, I was asking because Ithink where, where we pick
things up, you kind of can, it'sjust look, dude, I grew up
listening to the regular mainguys that were presenting this
stuff, and it was always likethe Scott Hans and like Brant

(01:54:47):
Petrie and those guys, and theywould always talk about the
council in a way where they weresaying, like you know, the
council itself was perfect andthen the spirit of the council
came out and it was all stuffthey were getting from benedict,
and so I was just curious toknow where you were, where you
were getting most of yourcatechesis on the council itself
from, that's all it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (01:55:04):
It wasn't a judgment.
I read a lot of benedict beforethis.

Speaker 1 (01:55:07):
We'll say that yeah, anthony, if you want a really
good channel on particularly theliturgical movement.
Historia Ecclesia, historiaEcclesia.

Speaker 3 (01:55:18):
Um very small.

Speaker 1 (01:55:21):
Sorry, um very small channel, but the guy does like
hour long lectures in um.
I think it's like an 18 partseries, utterly fascinating Um
and how how some of themodernist stuff crept into the
council and where it originatedfrom which, not shockingly, is

(01:55:41):
the French revolution.

Speaker 2 (01:55:42):
Yeah no, I'm not surprised by that at all,
actually, so I just subscribedto him.
I'll check out some of thevideos tomorrow.
It's good, all right guys.
This was fun.
Rob's going to take us out in asecond.
We will be back tuesday.
We were supposed to havecharles frown on.
He's not gonna make it tuesday.
I think we have taylor iscoming on thursday, you know, uh
, and then so I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:56:03):
We'll see what we're doing for tuesday and a month.
The following monday theremight be an entirely new show on
the channel oh really, you guysare doing that we Depends on if
I have a child being born thatday or not.

Speaker 2 (01:56:16):
At some point.
Rob's wife is going to have akid and I'm going to have to do
a shotgun.

Speaker 3 (01:56:21):
Baptism Anthony sent me the camera and the microphone
for the on the streetinterviews for the live birth
show.

Speaker 1 (01:56:26):
We'll be all set.

Speaker 2 (01:56:29):
I'll be flying out to Minnesota and I'm going to get
to hang with Rob in person.
Rob's wife Hope and my wifeNicole will finally get to meet.
So all right, we'll take thisout.
We'll see you guys on Tuesday,all right, thanks guys.

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