April 23, 2025 • 64 mins
Three Catholic commentators gather to examine what's at stake as the Church anticipates a new pontificate. Rather than simply handicapping papal candidates, they dive deeper - asking what Catholics can expect regardless of who steps onto the loggia.
Looking back at the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, they challenge nostalgic simplifications by acknowledging both strengths and weaknesses in these pontificates. Michael offers a counterbalance to popular narratives, noting problematic moments like Assisi interfaith gatherings alongside the doctrinal clarity these popes provided on moral issues. Mark reflects on how Benedict's theological precision offered stability during a formative period in his faith journey.
The conversation pivots to a crucial insight that frames everything: "The faith isn't about the Pope. Faith is about your relationship with Christ and the sacraments." This perspective grounds their analysis of two potential post-conclave scenarios - either a return to doctrinal orthodoxy that triggers external persecution, or continued progressive momentum that maintains internal tensions. Either way, faithful Catholics must prepare for challenges.
They explore whether a formal schism looms on the horizon, with Michael distinguishing between true schism and the theological divisions already evident. Mark notes how God continues working through seemingly desperate situations, pointing to unexpected growth in vocations and renewed interest in tradition among younger Catholics.
As they consider whether current trials represent apocalyptic moments or simply another chapter in the Church's long history, the discussants agree on one certainty - personal holiness and penance remain essential regardless of ecclesiastical politics. The Church has died and risen repeatedly throughout history, and will continue to do so through divine providence and faithful witnesses who keep their lamps trimmed and burning through the darkness.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
SANTE, sante AMARE MORTI NECRADAS NOS IN TE SPERA
(00:23):
VERUM, in tes per a verum.
Good morning guys.
This is my first time doinglike a daytime show on my
channel, because I typicallywork construction during the day
.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Oh, but daytime television is the worst, so I
wanted to get I can still doenough of the daytime television
slot Anthony.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I wanted to.
Well, the thing is I have alittle energy in a daytime slot,
like typically.
I worked all day and then we dothe 8 pm and I'm exhausted.
I usually ask Michael after hejust did his show, so he's on
like his fourth hour ofstreaming as he comes into hours
, the poor guy.
But I thought the three of uswould be a good combination
because first, we spent asignificant portion of time
(01:09):
together at the CatholicIdentity Conference last year
and you got Mark.
When I first started talking toMark, he had told me that you
guys were actually friends longbefore either of you met me.
So how do you guys know eachother?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Traveling in similar circles.
Really, we met through variousacquaintances and met at certain
gatherings and we just hit itoff.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah.
So I figured when we went tothat conference Michael and Mark
were basically my wingmen wentto that conference, michael and
mark were basically my wingmen.
So mark flew in and he was jetlagged and had slept about two
hours and the guy stayed upuntil like 2 am with us just
drinking pints and like justgetting into conversations and
talking.
And it was english yeah, it was.
(01:58):
It was really fun because Ithink mark had some preconceived
opinions of me that when weactually got to talking about
things he was was like oh OK,you're not really just like some
crazy rad trad, you actuallyhave some nuanced opinions on
some things.
But we're coming up on theCatholic Super Bowl.
Essentially Right, we have aconclave happening, which this
(02:20):
is the third of my life.
I wasn't alive for John Paul'selection, but I was for.
Oh no, my, yeah, this will bemy third.
So Benedict's election,francis's election are now this
one, and there's a lot of peoplethat are saying you shouldn't
be talking about this stuff yetand you're just doing it for
clicks.
But I also think there's a lotof new people that came into the
(02:41):
church that have neverexperienced the conclave and it
is something exciting as aCatholic to experience.
So I wanted to just go over withyou guys what man, maybe, what
it's been like being a Catholic,you know, being Catholic our
whole lives and witnessing someof the changes we've gone
through over the years, and thenwe'll get into what, what some
(03:06):
of the options are out there andwhat we think is going to
happen, regardless of who'selected.
So let's just go back to, like,the early days.
Like were you guys oh, becauseI grew up in a, I'm a cradle
Catholic but didn't take myfaith seriously until my
twenties.
Like were, um, were you?
Were you guys heavily investedin the John Paul, the second
(03:29):
pontificate.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Not really.
Um, I mean, I I liked John Pauland I I definitely appreciated
his, his documents with regardto orthodoxy and specifically
with the pro-life movement.
But growing up I saw some ofthe other things too.
I saw both sides.
(03:53):
I saw the glorious stuff thathe put out and then I saw kind
of the seedy underbelly, when hewould go to these Assisi
blessings, for instance, wherehe met with a bunch of
interfaith groups and leadersand they were all called to pray
in their own way at the churchof Assisi.
(04:14):
And it was a confusing time insome respects.
I kept waiting for him to dosomething, like, you know, drop
the hammer on a bunch ofheretics and kick them out of
the church and say you know what, enough of this, stop messing
with the mess, stop monkeyingwith this, stop changing church
you know church teaching andstop trying to promulgate heresy
.
But he didn't excommunicateanybody except for Marcel
(04:35):
Lefebvre.
So I, um, I didn't have anyanimosity towards Pope John Paul
II.
I actually, like I said, Ireally liked him, but I wasn't,
you know, like part of the JPtwo generation kind of thing.
I wasn't going to go to those,uh, youth day, what was it World
?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Youth Day and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I wasn't going to be part of the big, the big party.
It just wasn't my scene.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
That's interesting.
Okay, so, mark, I think you youprobably didn't have, cause I
think Michael was a little morelike cued into these things
before, definitely way before Iwas.
So I don't hear about Assisiuntil 2017.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
So, mark, were you one of the part of the
generation that was, like theman's, a living saint?
I don't know about that.
I don't know that I was, that Iwas a cradle Catholic and I
didn't have any formation in myfaith, really, you know.
So, um, he was the Pope and hewas a bit of a rock star.
I went when he came to England,I went to Wembley.
I was only a little fella.
My wife was there as well as a.
You know, we must have been 11or 12 or something like that.
(05:41):
You know, um, I didn't know herat the time, but you know it
was a massive celebration ofwhat it meant to be Catholic.
So, from all that side of things, I was completely thought the
man was brilliant and his downof communism is like.
Then I discovered the historyof his life and everything he
(06:01):
would lose in his family, andyou know the difficult
circumstances.
Then I discovered hisphilosophical writings, I think
the book when I was about 14, Ifound Crossing the Threshold of
Hope, which was an answer to aseries of questions that were
written by a journalist that hedidn't have time to get into the
meeting, but he answered themand sent them to him afterwards
(06:22):
and they turned it into a bookand those answers really
strengthened me in my faith,because they were the sort of
questions that were leveled atme by friends and, you know,
people like peers, and they werereally good answers to those
questions and I didn't even knowthat popes wrote books, let
alone encyclicals, at the time.
So, um, it really fed me, thepapacy, you know, jp2 really fed
(06:47):
me.
I was, I was in uh, I was invenice when he uh died, I was
celebrating I think it was my, Ithink it was our 10th wedding
anniversary.
Would that be right?
20 years ago, it may be thistime that was 20 years ago this
year yeah, so so yeah, so wewere celebrating our 10th
wedding anniversary in veniceand we were, we were thinking,
should we get the train down toRome, you know um, to see, to be
(07:10):
part of all the funeral and allthat sort of thing?
And then of course, we gotBenedict the 16th elected off
the back of that and that wasabsolutely golden, because that
was when I really startedstudying the faith properly.
And of course he was.
He just felt like he, he hadyour back.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You know, he was a brilliant theologian and yeah, I
think, I think, mark, I thinkguys like you and I like I,
always have this, this hugenostalgia for those two men.
You know, it was like John Paul,the second, what her name, uh,
mother theresa, were like thetwo living saints of my youth
(07:50):
and that's all I ever heard.
And then when benedict came in,it was like, oh god's
rottweiler is the pope, and it'sI find it interesting that,
michael, you, you kind of were alittle more savvy than most
Catholics were throughout thatperiod, because I mean, I just
have this like the way my memoryworks, is John Paul II was this
(08:12):
huge conservative and he wasfighting the powers of evil.
And it isn't until much laterthat, especially after the
priest scandals, that you startfinding out like man, he
might've known some of thisstuff was going on and maybe I
don't know.
You know I don't want toascribe motives to him, but you
know there was a lot he did dofor evangelism.
He had some beautiful personaldevotions, but there was also a
(08:35):
lot of dark stuff under thesurface that he just did not
contend with as Pope Right.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right there.
When I was growing up now we'vetalked about my background
quite a bit my grandparents werevery involved in fighting the
communists here in the UnitedStates.
They were exposing communistcell networks in Southern
California.
My grandmother used to keep alist in a little booklet that
(09:01):
she had of new bishopappointments and she would track
who they were and where theycame from and what they were up
to and the things that they saidand she kind of developed a
good bishop, bad bishop list.
So when John Paul II startedappointing certain bishops, and
I remember her talking to mymother and saying I don't
understand why he would appointthis man, this man,
(09:23):
da-da-da-da-da.
I'm starting to think that'snot good.
So you know, I didn't know whatall of that meant at the time,
but I would log these things inthe back of my head and it's
just.
I have a very sharp memory.
I remember these things, Iremember the conversations and
then, as other things would comeup, I would go, oh, oh, now
(09:43):
suddenly that makes sense orsuddenly that doesn't really
color him in a good perspective.
I mean, I remember when hekissed the Koran, which was
extremely disturbing to meBecause for all intents and
purposes.
He may as well have kissed theSatanic Bible.
It's just, I don't understandwhy he would do something like
(10:08):
that.
At Assisi, they placed a statueof Buddha on top of the
tabernacle.
Why didn't he remove it?
Why didn't he throw it to theground and smash it?
He didn't.
Instead, he stood with all ofthose other interfaith leaders
and prayed with them quoteunquote to their own respective
deities, which I mean that'ssomething that had been
(10:28):
condemned by the church inprevious decades, previous
centuries.
You just never did that.
So I just kind of logged thesethings.
It's not like I did anythingactive about it, but I remember
going to Christendom College andhaving people and all my
classmates, oh, jp2, jp2.
And I was like, ok, all right,and they didn't understand why I
(10:52):
was so reserved.
And I would bring these thingsup and they'd say, oh, why are
you so against him?
I'm not, I must have been.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I must have been a tricky time to be awake to all
these things.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Well, I got labeled conspiracy theorist and, uh, you
know, basically a tinfoil hatwearer and a friend of mine.
Fairly recently after, uh,after they became awake, after
uh, pope francis's papacy andand uh, the obamas and
everything else, uh, we met at areunion at christendom and she
(11:25):
walked up to me and she said Inever thought I'd ever say this,
but, holy crap, you were right.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You're right about everything, michael look, well,
the part of the reason I'm evenbringing it up is because, um,
so I saw, uh, father geraldmurray, who I really do like
yesterday I'm with jo McLean andhe was and even Cardinal Dolan
gave an interview where they'relike, well, what are we going to
be looking for in the next pope?
(11:50):
And both of them seem tosuggest that, you know, we want
someone with the clarity of JohnPaul II and Benedict.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
They weren't that clear, though that's the problem
they weren't.
They were clear on certainmoral issues, but theologically
and philosophically they werenot clear.
John Paul II was aphenomenologist, which is
bizarre, it's alien to thechurch's thought, and he wrote
these philosophical ideas thatkind of meandered and didn't
(12:21):
really settle on anything and itleft several, several
philosophical thoughtsopen-ended.
That's not a good thing.
Um benedict was more clear, butwe have to remember benedict
also was a.
He was part of the school ofthe, the uh nouveau tloj.
He was right there with um hansors von balthasar and henry
(12:42):
deac.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
He praised von Balthasar several times.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, and you know, I like a lot of what Benedict did.
I loved the man, but histheological writings had some
issues.
So you know, again, I'm nothere to judge either of them.
I'm not going to say that I'm abetter person or a better
Catholic than either of them,because I'm not here to judge
either of them.
I'm not going to say that I'm abetter person or a better
Catholic than either of them,because I'm not.
(13:06):
But I have reservations, I haveconcerns.
I wouldn't want somebody withthe clarity of John Paul II or
Pope Benedict.
I would want somebody with theclarity of Pius X, the clarity
of Leo XIII, the clarity of PiusIX, the clarity of Leo the 13th
, the clarity of Pius the 9th.
(13:27):
They didn't have to writevolumes of books and 200, 300
page dissertations on any giventopic to explain it.
What they wrote was on 10 pages, five pages, and it was clear.
It was concise and it wasthorough.
It closed the gap.
We don't need longdissertations to explain a
simple problem.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Well, I think there's this idea, especially amongst
Catholics right now, that if wejust get a pope who's willing to
speak out against the rainbowmovement, if we just get a pope
who's willing to speak out onthe life issues, and we just get
a pope who's willing to speakout on the life issues, and we
just get a pope who's willing tospeak out on a few on, like,
just those major issues that allthese bishops seem to pay lip
(14:11):
service to under thepontificates of JP to and
Benedict, but then as soon asFrancis came in, those guys
masks kind of drop, like I, I.
I thought there was a bit ofnaivete in Father Murray's
position saying that we justwant somebody with that kind of
what we're coming up on.
I don't think a Benedict XVIIor a John Paul III will be
(14:34):
sufficient to tackle what we areactually up against in our
culture.
What do you think, mark?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I don't think it matters.
That's not what the faith isabout.
The faith isn't about the Pope.
I don't think it matters.
That's not what the faith isabout.
The faith isn't about the Pope.
Faith is about you and yourrelationship with Christ and the
sacraments and making sure thatyour family go to mass and live
their lives.
That's how you change culture.
That's how we change the church, if you like, you know the
Pope's just some bloke in Rome.
If he's not holding to thedeposit of faith, he's no good
(15:03):
to any of us.
So, you know, I haven't evenreally I say I haven't listened
to Pope Francis.
Of course I have and pouredover all his rubbish that he's
written and you know all of thatsort of thing and been
absolutely depressed by it.
And I have to say, you know,I'm really not of the same
opinion with regard to, you know, especially Benedict XVI.
(15:25):
And I feel that I feel you'reright that the Pope's not going
to save the church by anystretch of the imagination.
But I do feel that what we'relooking at in terms of
trajectory is that everyone whowas, you know, except for
Michael, of course, but everyoneelse who was a JP2 Catholic or
a Benedict VI Catholic.
(15:45):
They're all trads now.
You know, the Overton windowsmoved because we thought that
Benedict XVI and JP2 had the.
They had it solid, they werethe solid centre, and instead
we've found out now you know howquickly that all was.
Absolutely the scales fell fromour eyes, didn't they with Pope
Francis, and everything wenthorribly wrong.
(16:07):
So, and I mean, I found myselfthinking how can this happen?
Pope Benedict XVI said that the, the authority, his authority,
ended at the door to his officeand yet Pope Francis seems to be
able to do whatever he wants todo, don't even bother saying
mass.
You know, like let's not botherwith it.
But the trouble is, because ofthe media age, we're all so
focused on what the pope's doingto take a lead from it that, um
(16:30):
, we're forgetting that that'snot really what the catholic
church is.
The catholic church is themagisterium of pious the ninth
of.
You know, like it's not whatfrancis is doing.
You know, it's not that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, no, but there is.
There is a um, the, the, thefaith is not the Pope, you're
100% right, but the the Pope issupposed to confirm the, the
little you know, confirm thebrethren in their faith.
So there is um, there is.
(17:03):
I mean, he plays such asignificant part in the catholic
life so that when you havesomebody like francis come along
, it is super discouraging forthe average catholic to just be
dealing with the onslaught fromthe media and there's no
corrections and things like that.
But I and and not just that,it's such a mess, yeah, but the
(17:25):
next that's what he did the nextPope is going to be the.
He will have full juridicalauthority over the church to
kind of clean up some of thethings that are within his
authority, which would be I mean, we saw what Francis did by
getting rid of Bishop Stricklandas opposed to getting rid of
McElroy like McElroy getselevated and Strickland gets
(17:46):
taken out.
So you know, the next Pope.
I do wonder what he's going todo with Bishop Strickland, who
lost his diocese.
You know, it's Nothing, Iwouldn't have thought.
Oh man, it's an interesting,you know, hypothetical to play
with.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
What one of these guys is going to?
We're not getting onto that yet, are we?
What one of them is going tostand up for anything?
I just can't see it.
I just can't see any of themgoing right.
We're going to reverseeverything.
The very best we can hope foris that they let it.
They let synodality and allthat rubbish quietly die and
stop going on about it all thetime.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
You know, I think that's the best we can hope for
so you yeah, I was going to askyou that like, what do you guys
think?
Do you think the synodal churchcontinues?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I don't know, I depends on who goes in.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It really does what's going to be interesting about
this next conclave is that, evenlike when francis gets, we were
all like, oh, he's a SouthAmerican Jesuit.
Like that can't be good.
Where, with this conclave,there has been so many
interviews and so much mediawe're going to know exactly what
(18:59):
this next Pope's position is onalmost everything, because
these guys can't stop blabbingtheir mouths.
So it will be interesting tosee who steps out on that loggia
and within five minutes, you'regoing to see Catholics being
like okay, what does he say.
What does he say?
What does he say?
It's going to be reallyinteresting to see how that
plays out.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
You know, I have to tell you a funny story.
After Pope Benedict steppeddown and there was going to be a
conclave the one thateventually elected Pope Francis
my friends and I played a boardgame called Conclave and it was
supposed to be this game abouthow a conclave works, and each
one of you plays a cardinal andyou go through the cardinal's
(19:34):
career and then eventually youhave this conclave and you vote,
and it depends on what kind ofinfluence you have to determine
who gets chosen.
Well, at the beginning of thegame, in order to put together
your profile, you draw certaincards that explain where you're
from, what your background isand that kind of thing.
Well, I drew South AmericanJesuit, and this was a month
(20:00):
before, or like weeks before,francis was elected.
I won.
I was the least likely to winof our group, but I won, so it
was.
It was a very funny little, ifnot a sad, determination.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Well, look, I see everyone talking about Cardinal
Serra, cardinal Pizza Ball,cardinal Erdo, but like, what do
we do if Tuco Fernandez stepsout there?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Well, it would be a mess.
I want to just kind of read youwhat I wrote this morning on X.
I said a timely reminder.
God does not choose the Pope.
I said a timely reminder.
God does not choose the Pope,he confirms the man chosen to
become the Pope.
Just as any man is free tomarry any woman, he should be
(20:51):
wise in his choice and choose awoman of virtue.
If he does, god seals themarriage and he will enjoy a
good life.
But if he chooses a woman ofvice, he will seal that too and
he will be miserable.
We must pray unceasingly thatthe cardinals choose a virtuous
man to become the pope so thatwe may enjoy a period of
goodness in the life of thechurch.
If we do not, they may choosesomeone terrible who will bring
(21:16):
dishonor and scandal to thechurch.
For good or for ill, god willseal the choice, and that's kind
of where we are right now.
The cardinals make the choice,god seals it.
And if we get somebody like aSarah, I think Sarah is too old.
But if we get someone like aSarah or we get someone like an
(21:39):
Erdo or an Ike, god be praisedbecause he will at least steer
the ship back in an orthodoxdirection.
If we get someone like aFernandez, well, we can then be
sure that we are under achastisement, that God is
punishing us, because we knowthe direction that such an
(22:02):
individual is going to steer us.
It doesn't mean that we get thepower or the ability to
determine whether he's the Popeor not, but there are limits on
the power of the papacy, on theauthority of the papacy, and we
don't have to follow thosethings which he says that are
not in conformity with what thechurch has always taught, with
(22:26):
what the church has alwaystaught.
So if a Cardinal Fernandezbecomes the Pope and he comes
out and says you know what?
We're going to go ahead andallow homosexual couples to come
into the church, we're going tolet them go up and receive
blessings and, by the way, theycan go up and receive Holy
Communion because they're in acommitted relationship and we
want to encourage them toparticipate in the life of the
church.
We don't have to follow that.
(22:46):
In fact, we should standagainst it because it goes
directly against natural law, itgoes against common sense and
it goes against moral law.
So, even if a wicked pope wereto say such a thing, we're not
it.
And people like uh, mike lewis,over at where peter is, is
(23:07):
going to sit there and say, oh,that's the teaching of the
church, that's the magisterium.
No, it's not.
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Every word uttered by the pope is not magisterial
what I think is interestingabout this conclave, though, is
okay.
So after, after jp2, and, andBenedict, I think the Cardinals
went into the, the conclave thatelected Francis, with kind of a
naive attitude of oh well, nomatter who gets elected, you're
(23:35):
going to get somebody in that,in that mold, whereas this
conclave I see even withCardinal Zen speaking out
already about them organizingmeetings before he could even
get there that what you're goingto see is those cardinals who
have Francis fatigue and thosecardinals who do want a more
(23:58):
orthodox pope to be elected aregoing to be way more on their
guard to be elected, are goingto be way more on their guard,
and I think that there will be.
I don't think they're going tobe able to just get whoever they
want in this time.
I think it could be verycontentious, and I think we
could have a significant periodof interregnum, which is why I
think Francis anticipated thatand made it.
(24:18):
I think this, after a certainamount of votes it's a simple
majority elects the Pope, like Ithink he changed the rules
knowing that he caused such amess that it'll be very
difficult to get a two-thirdsmajority of these cardinals to
agree on somebody.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I don't think it's going to be Fernandez, just to
put your mind at rest.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, no, I expect the worst of them.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And also the fact that Pope Francis has made such
an absolute mess of everything.
And Fernandez is part of thatmess insofar as, you know, even
with something like FiduciaSopercans, where he said no
further clarifications will begiven, immediately issued a
clarification.
You know he's just made a clownof himself.
Everyone knows that Everyonewho's done a theology degree,
(25:04):
you know he's just made a clownof himself.
Everyone knows that Everyonewho's done a theology degree,
you know, knows that I'd be very, very surprised if anyone was
stupid enough to vote for moreof the same.
You know and apparently I meanthis is what I hear from Rome is
that, you know, everyone is,they're broke.
There was a regime of, you know,listening in to conversations
(25:26):
and the reign of terror.
Some people said Francis wouldswear people out and you know he
was a bit of a bully.
There must be tremendous reliefthat all that is over and I
think that they'll be lookingfor something different.
You know, I think Pete Sabalamight be your man there.
I don't think there's a chancehe's getting in.
He's an Italian and they'll.
(25:47):
You know they like to bring itback to Italy, don't they?
After a period of insanity, andhe's also, I think, the work
that he's done in Jerusalem hasbeen really when he offered
himself, you know, for thehostages.
I thought that was very broad.
So what I'm saying is he's madewaves and he's made himself
(26:08):
look competent when he speaks.
I mean, michael matt had him onhis last remnant and, uh, you
know, he was saying reallycatholic things.
Yeah walking along saying, youknow, we've got to stand up for
jesus, and all I was like, wow,that'd be good.
Well, there's two.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
There's two ways this goes and in my opinion it's if
you got um, especially from whatyou're saying, it does sound
like it.
If you're right, that wouldmean a Cardinal Serra actually
does have a good chance, aCardinal pizza ball actually
does have a good chance.
Because maybe these men arelike, okay, we need to settle
down with all this craziness,right, if that happens.
(26:48):
I see it as the world is soright now we're in a place where
you can see it in the mediareports, right when Francis, the
people's Pope, the Pope who wasliberalizing the church and
bringing the church in a moreprogressive direction and he was
blessing same-sex unions andall that stuff.
So I think that we've been kindof left alone by the media.
(27:10):
They never went after Francisonce, not about sex abuse, not
about anything.
They just laid off of him.
And it was like Catholics havehad.
As much as there's been turmoilabout wondering if your mass is
going to be taken away orwondering if Francis is going to
lay the hammer down on a good,faithful bishop, there has been
an utter tranquility when itcomes to real persecution from
the world.
(27:30):
So if you get a man like aPizzabala or a Seurat or a
well-known conservative, thatwill change immediately and
you're going to see the churchhave you know, the media and the
world will set its sights onthe Catholic Church.
So the persecution will thencome from the outside, which I
think will build the body ofChrist up.
(27:52):
So I think all of us had alwayshad the idea that if we receive
persecution from the world,we're prepared for that because
we expect you're a follower ofChrist.
You expect the world to hateyou.
If it hated me, it will hateyou.
But what none of us wereexpecting was this persecution
from within the church, where itwas like our own leaders were
(28:14):
trying to demolish the faith onus.
So the two routes I see forwardare persecution from the world
because we have a faithful pope,or persecution from when the
church continues.
The revolution continues, andwe're going to be getting an
onslaught from within the church.
So so, either way, I just seehard times ahead for catholics.
You guys think I'm wrong onthat, or?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
well, uh, in terms of persecution from within the
church, until the church iscleansed of the modernist errors
that have persecuted her forthe last hundred years, um, I
think that, uh, that's that'sgoing to continue.
Even if we get a good pope, weare going to continue to have
persecution of modernists.
(28:57):
That's, that's just going tocontinue to go on, um, unless
there's a rounding up and a massexecution, or, I'm sorry, uh,
mass um oh, that was a freudianslip.
Bring back the inquisition um,yeah, unless we have something
(29:21):
like that going on, that's goingto continue.
In terms of the world, theclose relationship that we have
seen between the world and thechurch over the last 20 years,
30 years, 60 years actually, iscrumbling.
We're starting to see that theUnited States government is
(29:42):
drawing a line between thefinances and what the church has
been doing.
People are starting to realizethat Catholic Charities was
involved in, let's say, illicittransfer of human beings across
the border.
We're starting to see that thepeople of the world are rising
up against the mass scandals.
(30:03):
The child abuse, the homosexualabuse, everything along those
lines is being recognized by theworld as incongruous with what
the church is.
So the world at some point isgoing to throw off the yoke of
this.
We love having a relationshipwith the church because they
(30:24):
give us moral rightness and wegive them money.
That's not going to happenanymore, regardless of who gets
in, because you know you.
You get a liberal coming in andthe world's going to look at
that liberal and say we're notfooled again.
We're still not giving youmoney.
In fact, we're going to startshutting down your parishes
because you're running acriminal operation.
(30:45):
You get a conservative comingin and you're going to get the
other part of the world thatsays we hate what you represent.
You represent oppression ofpeople, of sexual diversity, and
we're going to start shuttingyou down because we hate what
you're doing.
So, either way, we are going tobe persecuted by the world.
It doesn't matter who's Pope.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Okay, now here's another perspective.
Right, we've seen a massiveturnaround in the UK at Easter,
with people, young menespecially who are disaffected
with the culture, looking foranswers and are drawn to the
Catholic faith.
Our Prime Minister, who wassaying that you couldn't say
what a woman was or something Idon't know, that women could
(31:25):
have penises or something Ican't even.
I don't even know what he's nowsaying, that only women are
women, which sounds obvious tous.
But there you go.
That's how crazy things havebeen over here, but it could
there.
I think that we can't go on withthe madness that we're seeing
in our culture and that thecatholic if you know, the three
of us, everyone watching webelieve that this is the truth
(31:49):
and I think that it's persuasive.
The truth is persuasive andpeople can only put up with the
madness and insanity thatthey're being told is normality
by secular culture for so long.
And that, you know, if, as like, if we can just hold on to the
truth as past the deposit offaith as given to us by Jesus
(32:10):
and the apostles, if we can onlymaintain the goodness, the
truth and the beauty, um, Ithink we'll start seeing a
turnaround.
I think we'll start seeing the.
That's what we it feels like atEaster, you know, even in our
parish.
I said to my parish priest, youknow, have you not?
He said I can't believe howmany confessions and how many
people they've been at mass.
(32:30):
And you know, people are comingand, like, my next door
neighbor came to mass on EasterSunday and he went, oh, that was
really, you know, reallyancient, felt really like it was
something important andmystical.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Going on, yes, there's definitely something
happening with God stirring thehearts of people.
Right, They've been fed thisnonsense from the culture for so
long and it's so empty and Ithink, even like the new atheist
movement that came up yearsback, people saw okay, you get
rid of God and other gods comeup, right, Like you can't just
(33:05):
get rid of God because theseother gods pop up.
And then all of a sudden youstart seeing these insane things
happening all over the culture.
So I think God is definitelyworking with the insanity to
draw people to him, and that'swhat Chesterton said, wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
You know that it's not that people won't believe in
anything, it's that theybelieve in anything, and that's
what we saw.
That's what we've seen.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Have you ever seen a tree with root rot?
Do you know what root rot is?
Yeah, okay, so root rot comesfrom an abundance of water.
In other words, if a tree is instanding water or in a wet area
for a long, long time, moldstarts to grow on the roots of
the tree and it starts to rot.
And it rots on the outside ofthe roots, but it'll eventually
(33:46):
kill the tree.
Uh, the only way to treat it isto dry the tree out as much as
possible without killing it, andI think that the church back in
the 60s was undergoing a adeluge, uh, like just full of
water.
The the roots were were rich.
(34:08):
They were, excuse me, pullingin all kinds of nutrients, but
there was a mold that wasgrowing on it, and we have been
experiencing that rot for thelast 60 years.
But to treat it, we had to gothrough a period of dryness, and
I think that the last 12 yearshas been a period of dryness.
The rot has been exposed nowand what's interesting is that
(34:34):
when you dry out the roots, theybecome combustible.
It's easy to light them on fire, and I think that that fire is
what we're looking for at thismoment.
We want that fire, we want thatpassion to enter into the
church and to shock the roots sothat they suck up the nutrients
and the moisture and revive thetree.
I think that we're seeing thatkind of thing happen now,
(34:56):
especially with the youthmovement in the UK, and we're
seeing it in the United Statesas well.
So, again, this all goes back tothe question of the purpose of
the church.
The church exists for thesalvation of souls.
She is only interested insalvation, that's it.
She's not interested in climatechange, she's not interested in
coddling homosexuals and theirrelationships.
(35:18):
She's interested in thesalvation of souls.
And if you have a pope who isnot interested in the salvation
of souls but is looking tosanctify the world, well, she's
going to spit him out eventually.
And again I think to Mark'spoint it doesn't really matter
who is the Pope, because as longas you know and understand the
(35:38):
faith and you promulgate thefaith and you look to spread the
faith as much as humanlypossible, that's where the
church is going to be,regardless of who's sitting at
the top.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Well said, and it's been.
Look, we've had 12 years, right, and we're seeing all this
growth, but, like the church isalive, we believe that we
believe that this is Christ'schurch and God is doing
something.
And I think, if you look've,what our job almost is is to see
what god is doing, what god isusing, what he has used pope
(36:08):
francis for.
And I think if you look onlinenow, you've got loads of lay
people like us, fulfilling faultand sheen's prophecy, coming
online and telling people whatthe faith is, and the priests
don't even know what's going on.
They don't need to, becausewhat's their job?
To give the sacraments, to saythe mass.
You know that's what their jobis.
(36:28):
It's not really.
It's our job to evangelize theculture, and here we are doing
it and it's having an effect.
And that Francis has broughtthat about by trashing the faith
for 12 years, really hasn't he?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Well, I see that as one of the like god writing
straight with crooked lines.
It's you know.
As much as, uh, they're thepowers that be.
We're trying to destroy ourfoundation of doctrine, things
like that.
What winds up happening ispeople that take their faith
seriously dig in even deeper andthey want to learn more about
it.
And it's, it's you know.
People saw his papacy asapocalyptic.
(37:06):
They were like what is going onhere and they started studying
and going deeper into all of it.
So, as much as Satan is tryingto destroy the church, god will
always use evil for good.
Do either of you see schism onthe horizon?
Cause I kind of think there'sgoing to be one, whether it's a.
Do either of you see schism onthe horizon?
Because I kind of think there'sgoing to be one, no matter who
(37:28):
the Pope is next.
I see, because to me, there'stwo different churches under the
same edifice at the moment.
There's one set of people whobelieve one thing.
I mean, there's probably evenmore than one schism, to be
honest, but I think, especiallyif you get a conservative Pope,
there's going to be a schism, tobe honest, but I think,
especially if you get aconservative Pope, there's going
to be a schism, all thesepeople who thought the Francis
Revolution was the pinnacle andit was going to just go on
(37:51):
forever.
If that suddenly does a 180, Idon't know how.
The people who thought thatstay within the confines of the
church.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Mark.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Well, I don't know.
I think there is an existentialschism, as you say, like the
Germans are in full schism.
You know, we just haven'tacknowledged it.
So I think that's existed mywhole life.
That's been the case.
And I'd say 80 percent at leastof the people who go to my
church don't know.
Or you know.
(38:25):
I mean, if you look at the, Imean obviously I'm getting UK TV
here but if you look at theinterviews outside Westminster
Cathedral about Pope Francis,none of them got a clue.
No one's got a clue.
What's going on?
Most people aren't engaged withtheir faith, you know.
I think more and more peopleare waking up to it.
But so you know what different?
(38:46):
I don't see that it will makeany difference.
The church is the church and italways will be.
But you know, maybe if you get amore conservative pope, I mean,
what are they going to do?
You're not going to get.
Who's the one who looks likeDaddy Pig Marx?
You know, in Germany You're notgoing to get him walking out of
his massive palace, are you?
He's not going to go.
(39:09):
Oh, add the keys back, boys.
I'll go and live in a shedsomewhere and preach heresy.
You know, all they're trying todo is get their money back by
following the secular narrative.
That's all they're trying to do.
They don't care about the faithor about the people, about
anything.
They've got no vocations.
None of these people have gotany vocations.
(39:30):
It's sterile, so that I'mafraid that project is dead in
the water.
It doesn't, you know, we look at, look at.
I can't but feel we're talkingabout this and we look at things
in such a, you know, amicrocosmic way.
It's just in the, in ourlifetimes, don't we?
You know, three school yearsand ten or whatever, and and
that's the way that we'rejudging all of this.
(39:50):
But the church works incenturies and it takes a long
while for these things to workthrough.
But if you've got the eyes tosee, you can see God doing
amazing things with all of thisstuff.
And we're you know like it'slike we're rebellious children.
I always go back to Genesis.
It's like the Genesis story andyou can see.
You know every generation doesit in some respects and you know
(40:13):
everyone's going well, we knowbetter.
We know better than the church.
We're going to have gayblessings.
We're going to have all thatwas rubbish.
We know better now, in 2025.
We're going to do it alldifferent and it will all
collapse and it will all bedestroyed and the church will
build it up again, becausethat's what the purpose of the
church is, that's the history,the timeline of scripture.
(40:37):
That's the way all these thingshave always worked.
You know that if we arefaithful, we see through that,
we stand on the shoulders of thesaints and the fathers and we
learn those lessons and we stayclose to Jesus.
And that's what we need to doand that's the message, really,
that we need to put out there,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
So with regard to the question of schism, I think we
have to define our terms.
The nature of schism is to saythat I refuse to be in communion
with that person.
That's the nature of schism.
So one who is in schism is tosay that I refuse to be in
communion with that person.
That's the nature of schism.
So one who is in schism againstthe Pope says I refuse to be in
communion with the Pope.
He is not my head, he is nottelling me what to do, I'm not
(41:15):
going to be under him.
That would be schism.
Or you have schism of thelateral sense, which is I refuse
to be in communion with MarkLambert and his family.
We're not part of the samechurch.
I refuse to be in communionwith him.
So that would be a lateralschism where you're making a
distinct cut.
I am not a part of this.
(41:36):
I'm taking my own authority toexcise them from the church, but
I don't think what we're facingis schism.
I think the word schism getstossed about because people
think there's going to be asplit.
But schism does not necessarilymean I'm not going to be a part
of this or I don't want them tobe a part of what I'm with.
What we're looking at more isreally a moral and theological
(42:00):
heresy, and I think that whatwe're going to see is, at some
point there will be a definedheresy and there will be a kind
of an inquisition that pointsout okay, the homosexual heresy,
the transgender movement heresy, the revolt against Humanae
(42:20):
Vitae heresy, and all of thesethings that go directly against
the moral underpinnings of thechurch.
And then you're going to havethe theological heresies, where
modernism, which is already adefined heresy but is hard to
pin down, will be codified andanybody adhering to certain
ideologies regarding themodernist heresy is going to be
(42:43):
so codified that they will beeasy to identify and the split
will take place on those grounds.
It'll be a matter of heresy,and anybody who refuses to
acquiesce to what the churchsays with regard to these moral
and theological issues will bedeemed to be heretics, and
(43:03):
they'll be.
They'll be removed from thechurch by the very nature of
what they profess to believe.
So the split is a theologicaland moral one.
It's not um, it's not a matterof whether we want to be unified
, it's.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
It's a totally different animal, um isn't that
like a late tente sentiaexcommunication like?
Speaker 2 (43:25):
well, but it's going to have to be more explicit it's
going to have to be.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
But you, at the moment, you've got catholics who
don't, who believe thatabortion is okay.
Loads of them, loads ofconsciousness, loads of you know
, and that I think the theproblem, like in the past, when
we had a problem like that, comeup, we had a council you know,
or a synod and that's what popefrancis should have been doing
over the last 12 years, sayingno, instead he gave us a massive
problem, yeah, and and like,let's deal with that.
(43:51):
Let's get all the brainstogether.
What's the church's response tothis massive challenge?
To you know reality, and, butinstead he's wandered off in all
these different uselessdirections and it it will be
really.
I think you know it will beinteresting to see how that is
dealt with, because that's whatwe're desperate for.
I know from teaching youngpeople, you know from being
(44:13):
involved in catechesis withteenagers and stuff, that the
biggest question for most youngpeople is surrounds
homosexuality and our culturesnot just acceptance but
promotion of homosexuality,which I think in historical and
you know, perhaps philosophicalterms is a sign of the decay and
(44:34):
end of society.
You know, historically speaking, this is a sort of a pattern
that you see, repeated um, andwe've failed to address that.
We've completely failed toaddress that the last thing that
the church issued was theletter on the pastoral care of
homosexual persons.
In what?
89?
Yeah, that the CDF wrote andit's weak, it needs an update,
(44:57):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Well, I think this is a good place to jump over to
locals, because what I wouldlike to do is talk to you guys
about the apocalypse in the endtimes and whether what we're
seeing might be something moreapocalyptic.
So I don't like doing that onthis end because people say I'm
a black pillar and things likethat.
(45:20):
But if you guys want, we'regoing to go over to locals now
because they're not localsubscribers.
It's the best way to supportthe show and we're going to get
into.
I want to because I see I kindof see the things that are
happening right now as maybe alittle more significant than
just, oh, are we getting a goodconserve, a good pope or a bad
pope?
I kind of see things as heatingup and a climax to the story.
(45:41):
So I'd like to get you guysboth of your take on that
because, especially what Markjust said about the decaying
culture and the end ofChristendom, because very
clearly, christendom is over.
There is not really a Christianculture left.
So what role does the churchgoing forward play as society
continues to crumble?
(46:02):
So, mark Lambert, you are overat Catholic Unscripted.
If you guys are not subscribedto Catholic Unscripted, I am
going to be interviewingCatherine Bennett at 1 pm today,
who is also on with Mark andGavin Ashenden over on Catholic
Unscripted, michael Hichborn atthe Lepanto Institute.
If you guys are not subscribedto Michael, head over there and
(46:24):
also subscribe and get Michael'snewsletter, and we are going to
continue this conversation onthe other side.
I'm just going to cut you guysfrom YouTube off right about now
.
Let's see, okay, that one'sremoved.
Facebook's got to go.
I got a few I got to remove.
Hang on Facebook's got go.
I got a few I gotta remove.
(46:45):
Hang on Facebook's gotta go.
Should I leave it on X?
Nah, you guys don't even get towatch on X.
We gotta get rid of everything.
I'm gonna just leave it onrumble.
Rob does a lot but I'm notpaying attention.
(47:11):
That's rumble, that's locals.
We get rid of rumble to localsonly.
Okay, michael, I think youprobably are a little more.
I just want to make sure we'restill up on our locals.
(47:37):
Let me just check and make surewe're still live.
Okay, guys, you guys who are onlocals, let me know if we're
still live just a heads up.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I do have an interview at noon.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
No, we're not gonna be that long, you know, like 20
minutes, 20, 25 minutes.
I I just I want okay.
So I, because the way I seethings heading, uh, okay, local,
still good.
So I see everything like sincethe council and since pope paul,
the laying down his papal tiaraand the escalation of
(48:14):
everything since the councilcoming with the liturgy,
changing everything, like Idon't know if we're just in one
of those phases in churchhistory where it's like okay, we
got a good Pope and things kindof get fixed.
It feels like everything's kindof building to a climax right
now.
And you know, people say I'm ablack pillar for talking like
that and I'm all doom and gloom.
(48:35):
But I don't see it as doom andgloom because I do see a
glorious resurrection of thechurch before the end comes and
I think there's a possibility wemay witness it in our lifetimes
.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
Yeah, do you know that brilliant quote from
Monsignor Ronald Knox?
Speaker 1 (48:51):
No.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Which I think is probably, is probably, you know,
the best way of illustratingwhat you're saying, which is you
cannot kill the church.
He said that, um, she, thechurch, was buried in the
catacombs.
She rose again with constantine.
She died in the dark ages.
She rose again with charlemagne.
She died with the renaissance.
She rose again with the saintsof the counter-reformation.
You cannot kill the cath Church, and that's how I feel about it
(49:15):
.
And what did Jesus say?
Keep your wick trimmed and oilin your lamp.
You know, that's it, and let'sgo and have a beer.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, so I see it as are we going through the passion
of the church and if so, doesthat passion continue in the
days forward?
Now that passion can takedifferent forms and typically we
don't understand prophecy untilafter it's fulfilled.
And you see it in hindsight,like a lot of times even in your
own life, you'll think God hasabandoned you in a certain
(49:48):
period and meanwhile you realizelater on that, like he had his
hand in things the entire time.
I see everything we're goingthrough as part of the story of
salvation.
I know God completelyunderstands what's going on, but
I also see the radio addressBenedict put forth in the 1960s
where he talks about the churchlosing all of her prestige and
(50:10):
she's basically going to bestripped of all of her
privileges, and I think we'restill heading into that time.
I think the church has a lotmore to endure, like,
essentially, we've gone throughmaybe the scourging at the
pillar, but the church still hasto endure the crucifixion, and
I see that as the days thatwe're coming up to right now
before the resurrection beforethe resurrection.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.
I'm looking for a particularnewsletter that I wrote about
the suffering of the church andthe passion of the church,
because there's an analogy thatI used in it.
So here's one example.
All all right.
The following story comes fromthe end of the present world, by
father charles amignon.
In the evening of november 24th1248, the season was mild, the
(51:02):
air was calm, the stars twinkledin the sky, the whole valley
where the present town ofchambray is situated lay, quiet
and secure.
An evil, irreligious man thenruled tyrannically over the town
now gone forever, but which atthat time stood next to the city
of my story.
This man had gathered a largenumber of merry companions, with
(51:26):
banquets and drunken revelry.
He was celebrating thesacrilegious plunder of a
monastery that he turned toprofane use after mercilessly
expelling the monks and holyinmates who were the legitimate
owners.
Probably as in Balthazar's time, it was a sumptuous meal and
the wine and liqueurs, mingledwith blasphemies and sardonic
(51:48):
laughter, flowed in abundance.
Suddenly, in an instant, in themiddle of the night, the earth
was shaken by a tremendous shock.
Sky and ground seemed to beshaken by horrible whirlwinds,
voices and the howling of stormswhich you could have thought
came from the caverns of hell,and before the guests could rise
(52:09):
to their feet, before theycould utter a cry for help, they
were buried alive under thecollapsing mass of a gigantic
mountain.
One town, five hamlets and awhole region of 6,000
inhabitants were engulfed inchasms.
However, the sanctuary of Maia,which should have been crushed
(52:29):
under the avalanche of stones,remained intact.
Boulders surrounded it on allsides and others stopped right
at its doorstep, but nonereached the sanctuary.
Inside the sanctuary at thetime of the disasters were the
monks who had left Amignon inthe morning.
They were praying to the blackvirgin at the precise moment
(52:52):
that giant landslides occurred.
All the monks survived.
There's an anecdote to this oran attachment to this.
According to Matthew Paris, whochronicled this event, quote
when the wicked Lord and all theother inhabitants had been
engulfed, the monks heard Sataninciting the evil spirits to
(53:12):
complete the their work ofdestruction saying further,
further still.
Destroy the chapel.
To which they replied we can't,because the black prevents us.
She is stronger than us.
Yeah, so the point of that is toshow look, you had evil men who
took command of this monastery.
(53:34):
You could look at thatmonastery as a representation of
Holy Mother Church, and you canalso look at the evil men being
the robbers who have takencontrol of Holy Mother Church,
the cardinals that wereappointed by Pope Francis, you
know the Cupiches, the McElroy's, the, the, the Tobin's and so
(53:55):
forth.
There are so many of these evil, wicked men that are now being
drunk in revelry and utteringblasphemies drunk, yeah.
And then what happens?
In the middle of the night,they get buried alive by a
mountain.
I think that the same thing iswhat is going to happen to Holy
Mother Church.
(54:15):
There will be some sort ofcataclysm to that extent,
because God will not allow hischurch to be buried by wicked
men, and their wickedness willbury them.
Look at what happened toKordath and Anabiram when they
rebelled against Holy MotherChurch God opened up a chasm and
swallowed them whole into hell.
It's going to happen, it's oneof those inevitabilities,
(54:40):
because God will not permit themto bury his bride.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
So I think the way, mark, you were describing it was
the church works in centuries.
I see it more like whatMichael's saying here.
I see a, I see something hugeon the horizon where God is
going to make himself known thatit is.
It's going to appear as allhope is lost.
(55:06):
But I do think, I think eveneven Francis was a purification
for us, for those of us who takethe faith seriously, to dig in
deeper and be prepared for whatis to come, because I think
something major is on thehorizon.
I know we've been saying thisfor a long time, but you think
about everything we've endured,especially the last decade.
(55:27):
But it starts with especiallythe priest scandals and just the
way the church has just beenmocked.
And then you get up to Francisbringing the Pachamama into Rome
.
All these things are sosignificant that I don't see it
as, oh you know, maybe in a fewcenturies we'll have some you
know, the conservative priest.
(55:48):
They'll be our leaders in thelong run.
I see the mess as so rottenthat it is going to take a
divine act to clear it out, andI think God is going to do
something like that.
Now, I'm not a seer, but Ialways have Our Lady of Fatima
in mind, where she talks aboutthe city and ruins and things
like that, and I think we'reworking our way towards
(56:09):
something like that, our waytowards something like that.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
Yeah, maybe you could be right.
I always think of the parableof the.
You know the vineyard, wherethe vineyard, they kick out the.
You know the sun, they kill thesun.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yeah, they kill First they kill the people who go out
and announce and theneventually they kill the sun.
Speaker 3 (56:33):
And you know, I just think like that's.
If I was clergy I'd beabsolutely terrified to be part
of what's going on in the church.
And you know, even with prieststhat I know who are kind of,
you know saying oh Francis wasso merciful, or whatever now to
people no, that's what I'msaying.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
you know saying oh Francis was so merciful or
whatever now to people Are youhonest?
Speaker 3 (56:55):
No, that's what I'm saying, it's just that.
And yet I don't know a priestwho actually thinks that Francis
was good in any way for thechurch or for the people or for
anything.
So I find that very.
I don't think I could tell lieslike that if it was me.
I find that very.
I don't think I could tell lieslike that if it was me.
And there's always this thingabout you know, covering up for
(57:18):
the church in some way, and Ithink that that's a grave
mistake.
I think we should be tellingthe truth and we should be
committed to the truth.
So but yeah, I mean it wouldn'tsurprise me if there was a
correction I don't know about.
All hope is gone, though.
I kind of think.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
No, all hope won't be gone.
It will appear as though allhope is gone, because that's
kind of how God works throughoutsalvation history, where you
think you know all hope is lostand then all of a sudden God
does something dramatic and youknow he had his hand over the
church the entire time.
Speaker 3 (57:55):
That's all I'm thinking.
I think I see that in thechurch all the time, and I see
it in interactions I have withother people.
You know, one of the thingsthat Pope Francis pushed me to
do was to get involved with thelocal Baptist community.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
For some reason, you know, I know Bible studies with
them right.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
Yeah, but it's been glorious, like in lots of ways,
and I get to tell them catholicthings all the time and they
sort of seem to quite enjoy itand, like you know, I think that
that it's amazing the way thatgood comes out of these things.
If you, if you're looking forthe positive, and I really do
see, like one of the priests whoI was speaking to after the
(58:32):
Pope's death said to me that thefact that he inserted St Joseph
into the canon made a massivedifference to his prayer life.
The fact that he said thosethings about the, the
confessional not being a torturechamber, meant that huge swaths
of people of a certain age, youknow, who had, who had been,
(58:54):
who felt that they had been kindof abused by the confessional,
by priests in the confessional,came back to the sacrament of
confession and there was andthere was a huge outpouring of
grace from that.
So, you know, I think that youcan, even in times when we feel
that we're being internallypersecuted, for the faithful,
for those of us who love thechurch and love the faith, god
(59:15):
is working, you know, all thetime, and doing amazing things
and you just gotta keep youreyes open and keep praying and
and and using the church, youknow, using the teaching of the
church to help people live theirlives.
And I think it's there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, um,it's not what you want to hear.
Well, no, I, I've noticed, I'venoticed this.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
There's always.
There's always differentreactions.
People have to that because,look, we're catholic, so we
don't want to have thatapocalyptomania right where
you're like always like that's.
Speaker 3 (59:48):
That's a very protestant thing I just think be
ready, you know that's.
I just think be ready and maybeit will.
I just think be ready.
And maybe it will happen.
And please God, I'll be in astate of grace when the you know
the coming of Christ falls.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
I just see the story of salvation history as a very
big story and what we've watchedhappen to the church over the
last decades is a verysignificant part of that story.
And it feels like, because ofwhat we're seeing in the culture
, specifically how we you know,if you look to the early
centuries of the church, how itwas, the pagan altars were
(01:00:25):
coming down and the Catholicaltars were being raised and
Christianity spread across theearth what you're seeing now is
a reversal of that and theCatholic altars are coming down
and these pagan gods are comingback up.
And it seems like a verysignificant point in the story
where we are now like the youknow it goes back to the story
of King Arthur, where you knowKing Arthur's coming into this
(01:00:48):
pagan world and you still havethe old gods are around and
stuff like that, butChristianity is on the the rise
and it seems like it's a totalreversal.
It's like a typologicalinversion of that, where we're
seeing, you know, we no longerhave our priests doing
processions with incense to wardoff these evil spirits.
It seems like these evilspirits are coming back out and
(01:01:09):
people are worship, worshipingthem out in public now and
you're seeing the pagan godsreturn and I I think that is a
it's more significant than justum, you know.
But but I also, I I see there'stwo different.
There's two different reactionsto when I talk like that.
Some people are like, no, comeon, you're overblowing things.
(01:01:30):
And then there's people whokind of see it the way I do.
I don't think either of us cansay who's right or wrong.
It's a matter of just lettingthe story play out, and that's
the only way to find out.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
The Reconquista took almost a thousand years.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
You know there's, there's that, but then there's
also the sudden reversals thatwe've seen in in history as well
.
We don't know how God's goingto play it out.
I think a lot of it depends onhow much penance we actually do
for Holy Mother Church and a lotdepends on us.
A whole lot depends on us.
The graces that are won bythose who are willing to do
(01:02:05):
penance can't be counted.
You can't calculate that, and Ithink it's incumbent upon us to
pray unceasingly for God todeliver us from the plight of
the modernists.
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Man, you think about all of us that are up here
complaining about the church,who aren't doing penances?
We will be held to the sameaccount as those bishops who are
destroying the church.
It's like you want to point thefinger and you're not doing
anything in your personal lifeto actually restore the church.
We'll, because we're presentingourselves as as something I
(01:02:40):
don't know.
If we're presenting ourselvesas teachers.
Yes, yeah, so maybe we'll end onthat note.
This was a very, very fun guys.
I knew it would be an uh, an,an interesting show getting the
three of us together.
I, I, I pray that another eventcomes along where we could get
Mark to fly into the States andthe three of us get to spend
(01:03:00):
another weekend, because I had alot of fun with you guys.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
We'll put the program together and we'll all be
drinking beer.
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Well, next time we should live stream something.
We'll do something in person,because there's a very big
difference in doing this onscreen and being in front of
each other, cause some of theconversations we had that
weekend were so good and youknow especially when you got a
pint in your hand and you're you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
let you guard that a little bit so we'll set up a
table and have have Rob clickingthe camera angles while he was
set up.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
And he popped in to fix a few things we didn't we
didn't see his face, but hepopped in to fix a few things
while we were on air.
So, all right, man, look, it'sgoing to be an exciting few
weeks coming up.
We have a conclave coming andall of the prognosticating we
(01:03:51):
did over the last hour or so.
We will see how these thingsget fulfilled as time plays out.
Yeah, so, man, it's an excitingtime to be Catholic, amen.
So, all right, boys, we willspeak again.
Everybody, I will see you guysat one o'clock when I interview
Catherine and the, the, the, the.
The streaming mayhem onavoiding Babylon today continues
.
All right, I'm going to end itnow.
(01:04:13):
I'm so bad at this.
(01:04:41):
Thank you.
SANTE, sante AMARE MORTI NECRADAS NOS IN TE SPERA
(00:23):
VERUM, in tes per a verum.
Good morning guys.
This is my first time doinglike a daytime show on my
channel, because I typicallywork construction during the day
.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Oh, but daytime television is the worst, so I
wanted to get I can still doenough of the daytime television
slot Anthony.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
I wanted to.
Well, the thing is I have alittle energy in a daytime slot,
like typically.
I worked all day and then we dothe 8 pm and I'm exhausted.
I usually ask Michael after hejust did his show, so he's on
like his fourth hour ofstreaming as he comes into hours
, the poor guy.
But I thought the three of uswould be a good combination
because first, we spent asignificant portion of time
(01:09):
together at the CatholicIdentity Conference last year
and you got Mark.
When I first started talking toMark, he had told me that you
guys were actually friends longbefore either of you met me.
So how do you guys know eachother?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Traveling in similar circles.
Really, we met through variousacquaintances and met at certain
gatherings and we just hit itoff.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah.
So I figured when we went tothat conference Michael and Mark
were basically my wingmen wentto that conference, michael and
mark were basically my wingmen.
So mark flew in and he was jetlagged and had slept about two
hours and the guy stayed upuntil like 2 am with us just
drinking pints and like justgetting into conversations and
talking.
And it was english yeah, it was.
(01:58):
It was really fun because Ithink mark had some preconceived
opinions of me that when weactually got to talking about
things he was was like oh OK,you're not really just like some
crazy rad trad, you actuallyhave some nuanced opinions on
some things.
But we're coming up on theCatholic Super Bowl.
Essentially Right, we have aconclave happening, which this
(02:20):
is the third of my life.
I wasn't alive for John Paul'selection, but I was for.
Oh no, my, yeah, this will bemy third.
So Benedict's election,francis's election are now this
one, and there's a lot of peoplethat are saying you shouldn't
be talking about this stuff yetand you're just doing it for
clicks.
But I also think there's a lotof new people that came into the
(02:41):
church that have neverexperienced the conclave and it
is something exciting as aCatholic to experience.
So I wanted to just go over withyou guys what man, maybe, what
it's been like being a Catholic,you know, being Catholic our
whole lives and witnessing someof the changes we've gone
through over the years, and thenwe'll get into what, what some
(03:06):
of the options are out there andwhat we think is going to
happen, regardless of who'selected.
So let's just go back to, like,the early days.
Like were you guys oh, becauseI grew up in a, I'm a cradle
Catholic but didn't take myfaith seriously until my
twenties.
Like were, um, were you?
Were you guys heavily investedin the John Paul, the second
(03:29):
pontificate.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Not really.
Um, I mean, I I liked John Pauland I I definitely appreciated
his, his documents with regardto orthodoxy and specifically
with the pro-life movement.
But growing up I saw some ofthe other things too.
I saw both sides.
(03:53):
I saw the glorious stuff thathe put out and then I saw kind
of the seedy underbelly, when hewould go to these Assisi
blessings, for instance, wherehe met with a bunch of
interfaith groups and leadersand they were all called to pray
in their own way at the churchof Assisi.
(04:14):
And it was a confusing time insome respects.
I kept waiting for him to dosomething, like, you know, drop
the hammer on a bunch ofheretics and kick them out of
the church and say you know what, enough of this, stop messing
with the mess, stop monkeyingwith this, stop changing church
you know church teaching andstop trying to promulgate heresy
.
But he didn't excommunicateanybody except for Marcel
(04:35):
Lefebvre.
So I, um, I didn't have anyanimosity towards Pope John Paul
II.
I actually, like I said, Ireally liked him, but I wasn't,
you know, like part of the JPtwo generation kind of thing.
I wasn't going to go to those,uh, youth day, what was it World
?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Youth Day and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I wasn't going to be part of the big, the big party.
It just wasn't my scene.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
That's interesting.
Okay, so, mark, I think you youprobably didn't have, cause I
think Michael was a little morelike cued into these things
before, definitely way before Iwas.
So I don't hear about Assisiuntil 2017.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
So, mark, were you one of the part of the
generation that was, like theman's, a living saint?
I don't know about that.
I don't know that I was, that Iwas a cradle Catholic and I
didn't have any formation in myfaith, really, you know.
So, um, he was the Pope and hewas a bit of a rock star.
I went when he came to England,I went to Wembley.
I was only a little fella.
My wife was there as well as a.
You know, we must have been 11or 12 or something like that.
(05:41):
You know, um, I didn't know herat the time, but you know it
was a massive celebration ofwhat it meant to be Catholic.
So, from all that side of things, I was completely thought the
man was brilliant and his downof communism is like.
Then I discovered the historyof his life and everything he
(06:01):
would lose in his family, andyou know the difficult
circumstances.
Then I discovered hisphilosophical writings, I think
the book when I was about 14, Ifound Crossing the Threshold of
Hope, which was an answer to aseries of questions that were
written by a journalist that hedidn't have time to get into the
meeting, but he answered themand sent them to him afterwards
(06:22):
and they turned it into a bookand those answers really
strengthened me in my faith,because they were the sort of
questions that were leveled atme by friends and, you know,
people like peers, and they werereally good answers to those
questions and I didn't even knowthat popes wrote books, let
alone encyclicals, at the time.
So, um, it really fed me, thepapacy, you know, jp2 really fed
(06:47):
me.
I was, I was in uh, I was invenice when he uh died, I was
celebrating I think it was my, Ithink it was our 10th wedding
anniversary.
Would that be right?
20 years ago, it may be thistime that was 20 years ago this
year yeah, so so yeah, so wewere celebrating our 10th
wedding anniversary in veniceand we were, we were thinking,
should we get the train down toRome, you know um, to see, to be
(07:10):
part of all the funeral and allthat sort of thing?
And then of course, we gotBenedict the 16th elected off
the back of that and that wasabsolutely golden, because that
was when I really startedstudying the faith properly.
And of course he was.
He just felt like he, he hadyour back.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You know, he was a brilliant theologian and yeah, I
think, I think, mark, I thinkguys like you and I like I,
always have this, this hugenostalgia for those two men.
You know, it was like John Paul,the second, what her name, uh,
mother theresa, were like thetwo living saints of my youth
(07:50):
and that's all I ever heard.
And then when benedict came in,it was like, oh god's
rottweiler is the pope, and it'sI find it interesting that,
michael, you, you kind of were alittle more savvy than most
Catholics were throughout thatperiod, because I mean, I just
have this like the way my memoryworks, is John Paul II was this
(08:12):
huge conservative and he wasfighting the powers of evil.
And it isn't until much laterthat, especially after the
priest scandals, that you startfinding out like man, he
might've known some of thisstuff was going on and maybe I
don't know.
You know I don't want toascribe motives to him, but you
know there was a lot he did dofor evangelism.
He had some beautiful personaldevotions, but there was also a
(08:35):
lot of dark stuff under thesurface that he just did not
contend with as Pope Right.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right there.
When I was growing up now we'vetalked about my background
quite a bit my grandparents werevery involved in fighting the
communists here in the UnitedStates.
They were exposing communistcell networks in Southern
California.
My grandmother used to keep alist in a little booklet that
(09:01):
she had of new bishopappointments and she would track
who they were and where theycame from and what they were up
to and the things that they saidand she kind of developed a
good bishop, bad bishop list.
So when John Paul II startedappointing certain bishops, and
I remember her talking to mymother and saying I don't
understand why he would appointthis man, this man,
(09:23):
da-da-da-da-da.
I'm starting to think that'snot good.
So you know, I didn't know whatall of that meant at the time,
but I would log these things inthe back of my head and it's
just.
I have a very sharp memory.
I remember these things, Iremember the conversations and
then, as other things would comeup, I would go, oh, oh, now
(09:43):
suddenly that makes sense orsuddenly that doesn't really
color him in a good perspective.
I mean, I remember when hekissed the Koran, which was
extremely disturbing to meBecause for all intents and
purposes.
He may as well have kissed theSatanic Bible.
It's just, I don't understandwhy he would do something like
(10:08):
that.
At Assisi, they placed a statueof Buddha on top of the
tabernacle.
Why didn't he remove it?
Why didn't he throw it to theground and smash it?
He didn't.
Instead, he stood with all ofthose other interfaith leaders
and prayed with them quoteunquote to their own respective
deities, which I mean that'ssomething that had been
(10:28):
condemned by the church inprevious decades, previous
centuries.
You just never did that.
So I just kind of logged thesethings.
It's not like I did anythingactive about it, but I remember
going to Christendom College andhaving people and all my
classmates, oh, jp2, jp2.
And I was like, ok, all right,and they didn't understand why I
(10:52):
was so reserved.
And I would bring these thingsup and they'd say, oh, why are
you so against him?
I'm not, I must have been.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
I must have been a tricky time to be awake to all
these things.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Well, I got labeled conspiracy theorist and, uh, you
know, basically a tinfoil hatwearer and a friend of mine.
Fairly recently after, uh,after they became awake, after
uh, pope francis's papacy andand uh, the obamas and
everything else, uh, we met at areunion at christendom and she
(11:25):
walked up to me and she said Inever thought I'd ever say this,
but, holy crap, you were right.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
You're right about everything, michael look, well,
the part of the reason I'm evenbringing it up is because, um,
so I saw, uh, father geraldmurray, who I really do like
yesterday I'm with jo McLean andhe was and even Cardinal Dolan
gave an interview where they'relike, well, what are we going to
be looking for in the next pope?
(11:50):
And both of them seem tosuggest that, you know, we want
someone with the clarity of JohnPaul II and Benedict.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
They weren't that clear, though that's the problem
they weren't.
They were clear on certainmoral issues, but theologically
and philosophically they werenot clear.
John Paul II was aphenomenologist, which is
bizarre, it's alien to thechurch's thought, and he wrote
these philosophical ideas thatkind of meandered and didn't
(12:21):
really settle on anything and itleft several, several
philosophical thoughtsopen-ended.
That's not a good thing.
Um benedict was more clear, butwe have to remember benedict
also was a.
He was part of the school ofthe, the uh nouveau tloj.
He was right there with um hansors von balthasar and henry
(12:42):
deac.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
He praised von Balthasar several times.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, and you know, I like a lot of what Benedict did.
I loved the man, but histheological writings had some
issues.
So you know, again, I'm nothere to judge either of them.
I'm not going to say that I'm abetter person or a better
Catholic than either of them,because I'm not here to judge
either of them.
I'm not going to say that I'm abetter person or a better
Catholic than either of them,because I'm not.
(13:06):
But I have reservations, I haveconcerns.
I wouldn't want somebody withthe clarity of John Paul II or
Pope Benedict.
I would want somebody with theclarity of Pius X, the clarity
of Leo XIII, the clarity of PiusIX, the clarity of Leo the 13th
, the clarity of Pius the 9th.
(13:27):
They didn't have to writevolumes of books and 200, 300
page dissertations on any giventopic to explain it.
What they wrote was on 10 pages, five pages, and it was clear.
It was concise and it wasthorough.
It closed the gap.
We don't need longdissertations to explain a
simple problem.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Well, I think there's this idea, especially amongst
Catholics right now, that if wejust get a pope who's willing to
speak out against the rainbowmovement, if we just get a pope
who's willing to speak out onthe life issues, and we just get
a pope who's willing to speakout on the life issues, and we
just get a pope who's willing tospeak out on a few on, like,
just those major issues that allthese bishops seem to pay lip
(14:11):
service to under thepontificates of JP to and
Benedict, but then as soon asFrancis came in, those guys
masks kind of drop, like I, I.
I thought there was a bit ofnaivete in Father Murray's
position saying that we justwant somebody with that kind of
what we're coming up on.
I don't think a Benedict XVIIor a John Paul III will be
(14:34):
sufficient to tackle what we areactually up against in our
culture.
What do you think, mark?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I don't think it matters.
That's not what the faith isabout.
The faith isn't about the Pope.
I don't think it matters.
That's not what the faith isabout.
The faith isn't about the Pope.
Faith is about you and yourrelationship with Christ and the
sacraments and making sure thatyour family go to mass and live
their lives.
That's how you change culture.
That's how we change the church, if you like, you know the
Pope's just some bloke in Rome.
If he's not holding to thedeposit of faith, he's no good
(15:03):
to any of us.
So, you know, I haven't evenreally I say I haven't listened
to Pope Francis.
Of course I have and pouredover all his rubbish that he's
written and you know all of thatsort of thing and been
absolutely depressed by it.
And I have to say, you know,I'm really not of the same
opinion with regard to, you know, especially Benedict XVI.
(15:25):
And I feel that I feel you'reright that the Pope's not going
to save the church by anystretch of the imagination.
But I do feel that what we'relooking at in terms of
trajectory is that everyone whowas, you know, except for
Michael, of course, but everyoneelse who was a JP2 Catholic or
a Benedict VI Catholic.
(15:45):
They're all trads now.
You know, the Overton windowsmoved because we thought that
Benedict XVI and JP2 had the.
They had it solid, they werethe solid centre, and instead
we've found out now you know howquickly that all was.
Absolutely the scales fell fromour eyes, didn't they with Pope
Francis, and everything wenthorribly wrong.
(16:07):
So, and I mean, I found myselfthinking how can this happen?
Pope Benedict XVI said that the, the authority, his authority,
ended at the door to his officeand yet Pope Francis seems to be
able to do whatever he wants todo, don't even bother saying
mass.
You know, like let's not botherwith it.
But the trouble is, because ofthe media age, we're all so
focused on what the pope's doingto take a lead from it that, um
(16:30):
, we're forgetting that that'snot really what the catholic
church is.
The catholic church is themagisterium of pious the ninth
of.
You know, like it's not whatfrancis is doing.
You know, it's not that.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Yeah, no, but there is.
There is a um, the, the, thefaith is not the Pope, you're
100% right, but the the Pope issupposed to confirm the, the
little you know, confirm thebrethren in their faith.
So there is um, there is.
(17:03):
I mean, he plays such asignificant part in the catholic
life so that when you havesomebody like francis come along
, it is super discouraging forthe average catholic to just be
dealing with the onslaught fromthe media and there's no
corrections and things like that.
But I and and not just that,it's such a mess, yeah, but the
(17:25):
next that's what he did the nextPope is going to be the.
He will have full juridicalauthority over the church to
kind of clean up some of thethings that are within his
authority, which would be I mean, we saw what Francis did by
getting rid of Bishop Stricklandas opposed to getting rid of
McElroy like McElroy getselevated and Strickland gets
(17:46):
taken out.
So you know, the next Pope.
I do wonder what he's going todo with Bishop Strickland, who
lost his diocese.
You know, it's Nothing, Iwouldn't have thought.
Oh man, it's an interesting,you know, hypothetical to play
with.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
What one of these guys is going to?
We're not getting onto that yet, are we?
What one of them is going tostand up for anything?
I just can't see it.
I just can't see any of themgoing right.
We're going to reverseeverything.
The very best we can hope foris that they let it.
They let synodality and allthat rubbish quietly die and
stop going on about it all thetime.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
You know, I think that's the best we can hope for
so you yeah, I was going to askyou that like, what do you guys
think?
Do you think the synodal churchcontinues?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I don't know, I depends on who goes in.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It really does what's going to be interesting about
this next conclave is that, evenlike when francis gets, we were
all like, oh, he's a SouthAmerican Jesuit.
Like that can't be good.
Where, with this conclave,there has been so many
interviews and so much mediawe're going to know exactly what
(18:59):
this next Pope's position is onalmost everything, because
these guys can't stop blabbingtheir mouths.
So it will be interesting tosee who steps out on that loggia
and within five minutes, you'regoing to see Catholics being
like okay, what does he say.
What does he say?
What does he say?
It's going to be reallyinteresting to see how that
plays out.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
You know, I have to tell you a funny story.
After Pope Benedict steppeddown and there was going to be a
conclave the one thateventually elected Pope Francis
my friends and I played a boardgame called Conclave and it was
supposed to be this game abouthow a conclave works, and each
one of you plays a cardinal andyou go through the cardinal's
(19:34):
career and then eventually youhave this conclave and you vote,
and it depends on what kind ofinfluence you have to determine
who gets chosen.
Well, at the beginning of thegame, in order to put together
your profile, you draw certaincards that explain where you're
from, what your background isand that kind of thing.
Well, I drew South AmericanJesuit, and this was a month
(20:00):
before, or like weeks before,francis was elected.
I won.
I was the least likely to winof our group, but I won, so it
was.
It was a very funny little, ifnot a sad, determination.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Well, look, I see everyone talking about Cardinal
Serra, cardinal Pizza Ball,cardinal Erdo, but like, what do
we do if Tuco Fernandez stepsout there?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Well, it would be a mess.
I want to just kind of read youwhat I wrote this morning on X.
I said a timely reminder.
God does not choose the Pope.
I said a timely reminder.
God does not choose the Pope,he confirms the man chosen to
become the Pope.
Just as any man is free tomarry any woman, he should be
(20:51):
wise in his choice and choose awoman of virtue.
If he does, god seals themarriage and he will enjoy a
good life.
But if he chooses a woman ofvice, he will seal that too and
he will be miserable.
We must pray unceasingly thatthe cardinals choose a virtuous
man to become the pope so thatwe may enjoy a period of
goodness in the life of thechurch.
If we do not, they may choosesomeone terrible who will bring
(21:16):
dishonor and scandal to thechurch.
For good or for ill, god willseal the choice, and that's kind
of where we are right now.
The cardinals make the choice,god seals it.
And if we get somebody like aSarah, I think Sarah is too old.
But if we get someone like aSarah or we get someone like an
(21:39):
Erdo or an Ike, god be praisedbecause he will at least steer
the ship back in an orthodoxdirection.
If we get someone like aFernandez, well, we can then be
sure that we are under achastisement, that God is
punishing us, because we knowthe direction that such an
(22:02):
individual is going to steer us.
It doesn't mean that we get thepower or the ability to
determine whether he's the Popeor not, but there are limits on
the power of the papacy, on theauthority of the papacy, and we
don't have to follow thosethings which he says that are
not in conformity with what thechurch has always taught, with
(22:26):
what the church has alwaystaught.
So if a Cardinal Fernandezbecomes the Pope and he comes
out and says you know what?
We're going to go ahead andallow homosexual couples to come
into the church, we're going tolet them go up and receive
blessings and, by the way, theycan go up and receive Holy
Communion because they're in acommitted relationship and we
want to encourage them toparticipate in the life of the
church.
We don't have to follow that.
(22:46):
In fact, we should standagainst it because it goes
directly against natural law, itgoes against common sense and
it goes against moral law.
So, even if a wicked pope wereto say such a thing, we're not
it.
And people like uh, mike lewis,over at where peter is, is
(23:07):
going to sit there and say, oh,that's the teaching of the
church, that's the magisterium.
No, it's not.
No, it's not.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Every word uttered by the pope is not magisterial
what I think is interestingabout this conclave, though, is
okay.
So after, after jp2, and, andBenedict, I think the Cardinals
went into the, the conclave thatelected Francis, with kind of a
naive attitude of oh well, nomatter who gets elected, you're
(23:35):
going to get somebody in that,in that mold, whereas this
conclave I see even withCardinal Zen speaking out
already about them organizingmeetings before he could even
get there that what you're goingto see is those cardinals who
have Francis fatigue and thosecardinals who do want a more
(23:58):
orthodox pope to be elected aregoing to be way more on their
guard to be elected, are goingto be way more on their guard,
and I think that there will be.
I don't think they're going tobe able to just get whoever they
want in this time.
I think it could be verycontentious, and I think we
could have a significant periodof interregnum, which is why I
think Francis anticipated thatand made it.
(24:18):
I think this, after a certainamount of votes it's a simple
majority elects the Pope, like Ithink he changed the rules
knowing that he caused such amess that it'll be very
difficult to get a two-thirdsmajority of these cardinals to
agree on somebody.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
I don't think it's going to be Fernandez, just to
put your mind at rest.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Yeah, no, I expect the worst of them.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
And also the fact that Pope Francis has made such
an absolute mess of everything.
And Fernandez is part of thatmess insofar as, you know, even
with something like FiduciaSopercans, where he said no
further clarifications will begiven, immediately issued a
clarification.
You know he's just made a clownof himself.
Everyone knows that Everyonewho's done a theology degree,
(25:04):
you know he's just made a clownof himself.
Everyone knows that Everyonewho's done a theology degree,
you know, knows that I'd be very, very surprised if anyone was
stupid enough to vote for moreof the same.
You know and apparently I meanthis is what I hear from Rome is
that, you know, everyone is,they're broke.
There was a regime of, you know,listening in to conversations
(25:26):
and the reign of terror.
Some people said Francis wouldswear people out and you know he
was a bit of a bully.
There must be tremendous reliefthat all that is over and I
think that they'll be lookingfor something different.
You know, I think Pete Sabalamight be your man there.
I don't think there's a chancehe's getting in.
He's an Italian and they'll.
(25:47):
You know they like to bring itback to Italy, don't they?
After a period of insanity, andhe's also, I think, the work
that he's done in Jerusalem hasbeen really when he offered
himself, you know, for thehostages.
I thought that was very broad.
So what I'm saying is he's madewaves and he's made himself
(26:08):
look competent when he speaks.
I mean, michael matt had him onhis last remnant and, uh, you
know, he was saying reallycatholic things.
Yeah walking along saying, youknow, we've got to stand up for
jesus, and all I was like, wow,that'd be good.
Well, there's two.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
There's two ways this goes and in my opinion it's if
you got um, especially from whatyou're saying, it does sound
like it.
If you're right, that wouldmean a Cardinal Serra actually
does have a good chance, aCardinal pizza ball actually
does have a good chance.
Because maybe these men arelike, okay, we need to settle
down with all this craziness,right, if that happens.
(26:48):
I see it as the world is soright now we're in a place where
you can see it in the mediareports, right when Francis, the
people's Pope, the Pope who wasliberalizing the church and
bringing the church in a moreprogressive direction and he was
blessing same-sex unions andall that stuff.
So I think that we've been kindof left alone by the media.
(27:10):
They never went after Francisonce, not about sex abuse, not
about anything.
They just laid off of him.
And it was like Catholics havehad.
As much as there's been turmoilabout wondering if your mass is
going to be taken away orwondering if Francis is going to
lay the hammer down on a good,faithful bishop, there has been
an utter tranquility when itcomes to real persecution from
the world.
(27:30):
So if you get a man like aPizzabala or a Seurat or a
well-known conservative, thatwill change immediately and
you're going to see the churchhave you know, the media and the
world will set its sights onthe Catholic Church.
So the persecution will thencome from the outside, which I
think will build the body ofChrist up.
(27:52):
So I think all of us had alwayshad the idea that if we receive
persecution from the world,we're prepared for that because
we expect you're a follower ofChrist.
You expect the world to hateyou.
If it hated me, it will hateyou.
But what none of us wereexpecting was this persecution
from within the church, where itwas like our own leaders were
(28:14):
trying to demolish the faith onus.
So the two routes I see forwardare persecution from the world
because we have a faithful pope,or persecution from when the
church continues.
The revolution continues, andwe're going to be getting an
onslaught from within the church.
So so, either way, I just seehard times ahead for catholics.
You guys think I'm wrong onthat, or?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
well, uh, in terms of persecution from within the
church, until the church iscleansed of the modernist errors
that have persecuted her forthe last hundred years, um, I
think that, uh, that's that'sgoing to continue.
Even if we get a good pope, weare going to continue to have
persecution of modernists.
(28:57):
That's, that's just going tocontinue to go on, um, unless
there's a rounding up and a massexecution, or, I'm sorry, uh,
mass um oh, that was a freudianslip.
Bring back the inquisition um,yeah, unless we have something
(29:21):
like that going on, that's goingto continue.
In terms of the world, theclose relationship that we have
seen between the world and thechurch over the last 20 years,
30 years, 60 years actually, iscrumbling.
We're starting to see that theUnited States government is
(29:42):
drawing a line between thefinances and what the church has
been doing.
People are starting to realizethat Catholic Charities was
involved in, let's say, illicittransfer of human beings across
the border.
We're starting to see that thepeople of the world are rising
up against the mass scandals.
(30:03):
The child abuse, the homosexualabuse, everything along those
lines is being recognized by theworld as incongruous with what
the church is.
So the world at some point isgoing to throw off the yoke of
this.
We love having a relationshipwith the church because they
(30:24):
give us moral rightness and wegive them money.
That's not going to happenanymore, regardless of who gets
in, because you know you.
You get a liberal coming in andthe world's going to look at
that liberal and say we're notfooled again.
We're still not giving youmoney.
In fact, we're going to startshutting down your parishes
because you're running acriminal operation.
(30:45):
You get a conservative comingin and you're going to get the
other part of the world thatsays we hate what you represent.
You represent oppression ofpeople, of sexual diversity, and
we're going to start shuttingyou down because we hate what
you're doing.
So, either way, we are going tobe persecuted by the world.
It doesn't matter who's Pope.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
Okay, now here's another perspective.
Right, we've seen a massiveturnaround in the UK at Easter,
with people, young menespecially who are disaffected
with the culture, looking foranswers and are drawn to the
Catholic faith.
Our Prime Minister, who wassaying that you couldn't say
what a woman was or something Idon't know, that women could
(31:25):
have penises or something Ican't even.
I don't even know what he's nowsaying, that only women are
women, which sounds obvious tous.
But there you go.
That's how crazy things havebeen over here, but it could
there.
I think that we can't go on withthe madness that we're seeing
in our culture and that thecatholic if you know, the three
of us, everyone watching webelieve that this is the truth
(31:49):
and I think that it's persuasive.
The truth is persuasive andpeople can only put up with the
madness and insanity thatthey're being told is normality
by secular culture for so long.
And that, you know, if, as like, if we can just hold on to the
truth as past the deposit offaith as given to us by Jesus
(32:10):
and the apostles, if we can onlymaintain the goodness, the
truth and the beauty, um, Ithink we'll start seeing a
turnaround.
I think we'll start seeing the.
That's what we it feels like atEaster, you know, even in our
parish.
I said to my parish priest, youknow, have you not?
He said I can't believe howmany confessions and how many
people they've been at mass.
(32:30):
And you know, people are comingand, like, my next door
neighbor came to mass on EasterSunday and he went, oh, that was
really, you know, reallyancient, felt really like it was
something important andmystical.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
Going on, yes, there's definitely something
happening with God stirring thehearts of people.
Right, They've been fed thisnonsense from the culture for so
long and it's so empty and Ithink, even like the new atheist
movement that came up yearsback, people saw okay, you get
rid of God and other gods comeup, right, Like you can't just
(33:05):
get rid of God because theseother gods pop up.
And then all of a sudden youstart seeing these insane things
happening all over the culture.
So I think God is definitelyworking with the insanity to
draw people to him, and that'swhat Chesterton said, wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (33:18):
You know that it's not that people won't believe in
anything, it's that theybelieve in anything, and that's
what we saw.
That's what we've seen.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Have you ever seen a tree with root rot?
Do you know what root rot is?
Yeah, okay, so root rot comesfrom an abundance of water.
In other words, if a tree is instanding water or in a wet area
for a long, long time, moldstarts to grow on the roots of
the tree and it starts to rot.
And it rots on the outside ofthe roots, but it'll eventually
(33:46):
kill the tree.
Uh, the only way to treat it isto dry the tree out as much as
possible without killing it, andI think that the church back in
the 60s was undergoing a adeluge, uh, like just full of
water.
The the roots were were rich.
(34:08):
They were, excuse me, pullingin all kinds of nutrients, but
there was a mold that wasgrowing on it, and we have been
experiencing that rot for thelast 60 years.
But to treat it, we had to gothrough a period of dryness, and
I think that the last 12 yearshas been a period of dryness.
The rot has been exposed nowand what's interesting is that
(34:34):
when you dry out the roots, theybecome combustible.
It's easy to light them on fire, and I think that that fire is
what we're looking for at thismoment.
We want that fire, we want thatpassion to enter into the
church and to shock the roots sothat they suck up the nutrients
and the moisture and revive thetree.
I think that we're seeing thatkind of thing happen now,
(34:56):
especially with the youthmovement in the UK, and we're
seeing it in the United Statesas well.
So, again, this all goes back tothe question of the purpose of
the church.
The church exists for thesalvation of souls.
She is only interested insalvation, that's it.
She's not interested in climatechange, she's not interested in
coddling homosexuals and theirrelationships.
(35:18):
She's interested in thesalvation of souls.
And if you have a pope who isnot interested in the salvation
of souls but is looking tosanctify the world, well, she's
going to spit him out eventually.
And again I think to Mark'spoint it doesn't really matter
who is the Pope, because as longas you know and understand the
(35:38):
faith and you promulgate thefaith and you look to spread the
faith as much as humanlypossible, that's where the
church is going to be,regardless of who's sitting at
the top.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
Well said, and it's been.
Look, we've had 12 years, right, and we're seeing all this
growth, but, like the church isalive, we believe that we
believe that this is Christ'schurch and God is doing
something.
And I think, if you look've,what our job almost is is to see
what god is doing, what god isusing, what he has used pope
(36:08):
francis for.
And I think if you look onlinenow, you've got loads of lay
people like us, fulfilling faultand sheen's prophecy, coming
online and telling people whatthe faith is, and the priests
don't even know what's going on.
They don't need to, becausewhat's their job?
To give the sacraments, to saythe mass.
You know that's what their jobis.
(36:28):
It's not really.
It's our job to evangelize theculture, and here we are doing
it and it's having an effect.
And that Francis has broughtthat about by trashing the faith
for 12 years, really hasn't he?
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Well, I see that as one of the like god writing
straight with crooked lines.
It's you know.
As much as, uh, they're thepowers that be.
We're trying to destroy ourfoundation of doctrine, things
like that.
What winds up happening ispeople that take their faith
seriously dig in even deeper andthey want to learn more about
it.
And it's, it's you know.
People saw his papacy asapocalyptic.
(37:06):
They were like what is going onhere and they started studying
and going deeper into all of it.
So, as much as Satan is tryingto destroy the church, god will
always use evil for good.
Do either of you see schism onthe horizon?
Cause I kind of think there'sgoing to be one, whether it's a.
Do either of you see schism onthe horizon?
Because I kind of think there'sgoing to be one, no matter who
(37:28):
the Pope is next.
I see, because to me, there'stwo different churches under the
same edifice at the moment.
There's one set of people whobelieve one thing.
I mean, there's probably evenmore than one schism, to be
honest, but I think, especiallyif you get a conservative Pope,
there's going to be a schism, tobe honest, but I think,
especially if you get aconservative Pope, there's going
to be a schism, all thesepeople who thought the Francis
Revolution was the pinnacle andit was going to just go on
(37:51):
forever.
If that suddenly does a 180, Idon't know how.
The people who thought thatstay within the confines of the
church.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Mark.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Well, I don't know.
I think there is an existentialschism, as you say, like the
Germans are in full schism.
You know, we just haven'tacknowledged it.
So I think that's existed mywhole life.
That's been the case.
And I'd say 80 percent at leastof the people who go to my
church don't know.
Or you know.
(38:25):
I mean, if you look at the, Imean obviously I'm getting UK TV
here but if you look at theinterviews outside Westminster
Cathedral about Pope Francis,none of them got a clue.
No one's got a clue.
What's going on?
Most people aren't engaged withtheir faith, you know.
I think more and more peopleare waking up to it.
But so you know what different?
(38:46):
I don't see that it will makeany difference.
The church is the church and italways will be.
But you know, maybe if you get amore conservative pope, I mean,
what are they going to do?
You're not going to get.
Who's the one who looks likeDaddy Pig Marx?
You know, in Germany You're notgoing to get him walking out of
his massive palace, are you?
He's not going to go.
(39:09):
Oh, add the keys back, boys.
I'll go and live in a shedsomewhere and preach heresy.
You know, all they're trying todo is get their money back by
following the secular narrative.
That's all they're trying to do.
They don't care about the faithor about the people, about
anything.
They've got no vocations.
None of these people have gotany vocations.
(39:30):
It's sterile, so that I'mafraid that project is dead in
the water.
It doesn't, you know, we look at, look at.
I can't but feel we're talkingabout this and we look at things
in such a, you know, amicrocosmic way.
It's just in the, in ourlifetimes, don't we?
You know, three school yearsand ten or whatever, and and
that's the way that we'rejudging all of this.
(39:50):
But the church works incenturies and it takes a long
while for these things to workthrough.
But if you've got the eyes tosee, you can see God doing
amazing things with all of thisstuff.
And we're you know like it'slike we're rebellious children.
I always go back to Genesis.
It's like the Genesis story andyou can see.
You know every generation doesit in some respects and you know
(40:13):
everyone's going well, we knowbetter.
We know better than the church.
We're going to have gayblessings.
We're going to have all thatwas rubbish.
We know better now, in 2025.
We're going to do it alldifferent and it will all
collapse and it will all bedestroyed and the church will
build it up again, becausethat's what the purpose of the
church is, that's the history,the timeline of scripture.
(40:37):
That's the way all these thingshave always worked.
You know that if we arefaithful, we see through that,
we stand on the shoulders of thesaints and the fathers and we
learn those lessons and we stayclose to Jesus.
And that's what we need to doand that's the message, really,
that we need to put out there,isn't it?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
So with regard to the question of schism, I think we
have to define our terms.
The nature of schism is to saythat I refuse to be in communion
with that person.
That's the nature of schism.
So one who is in schism is tosay that I refuse to be in
communion with that person.
That's the nature of schism.
So one who is in schism againstthe Pope says I refuse to be in
communion with the Pope.
He is not my head, he is nottelling me what to do, I'm not
(41:15):
going to be under him.
That would be schism.
Or you have schism of thelateral sense, which is I refuse
to be in communion with MarkLambert and his family.
We're not part of the samechurch.
I refuse to be in communionwith him.
So that would be a lateralschism where you're making a
distinct cut.
I am not a part of this.
(41:36):
I'm taking my own authority toexcise them from the church, but
I don't think what we're facingis schism.
I think the word schism getstossed about because people
think there's going to be asplit.
But schism does not necessarilymean I'm not going to be a part
of this or I don't want them tobe a part of what I'm with.
What we're looking at more isreally a moral and theological
(42:00):
heresy, and I think that whatwe're going to see is, at some
point there will be a definedheresy and there will be a kind
of an inquisition that pointsout okay, the homosexual heresy,
the transgender movement heresy, the revolt against Humanae
(42:20):
Vitae heresy, and all of thesethings that go directly against
the moral underpinnings of thechurch.
And then you're going to havethe theological heresies, where
modernism, which is already adefined heresy but is hard to
pin down, will be codified andanybody adhering to certain
ideologies regarding themodernist heresy is going to be
(42:43):
so codified that they will beeasy to identify and the split
will take place on those grounds.
It'll be a matter of heresy,and anybody who refuses to
acquiesce to what the churchsays with regard to these moral
and theological issues will bedeemed to be heretics, and
(43:03):
they'll be.
They'll be removed from thechurch by the very nature of
what they profess to believe.
So the split is a theologicaland moral one.
It's not um, it's not a matterof whether we want to be unified
, it's.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
It's a totally different animal, um isn't that
like a late tente sentiaexcommunication like?
Speaker 2 (43:25):
well, but it's going to have to be more explicit it's
going to have to be.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
But you, at the moment, you've got catholics who
don't, who believe thatabortion is okay.
Loads of them, loads ofconsciousness, loads of you know
, and that I think the theproblem, like in the past, when
we had a problem like that, comeup, we had a council you know,
or a synod and that's what popefrancis should have been doing
over the last 12 years, sayingno, instead he gave us a massive
problem, yeah, and and like,let's deal with that.
(43:51):
Let's get all the brainstogether.
What's the church's response tothis massive challenge?
To you know reality, and, butinstead he's wandered off in all
these different uselessdirections and it it will be
really.
I think you know it will beinteresting to see how that is
dealt with, because that's whatwe're desperate for.
I know from teaching youngpeople, you know from being
(44:13):
involved in catechesis withteenagers and stuff, that the
biggest question for most youngpeople is surrounds
homosexuality and our culturesnot just acceptance but
promotion of homosexuality,which I think in historical and
you know, perhaps philosophicalterms is a sign of the decay and
(44:34):
end of society.
You know, historically speaking, this is a sort of a pattern
that you see, repeated um, andwe've failed to address that.
We've completely failed toaddress that the last thing that
the church issued was theletter on the pastoral care of
homosexual persons.
In what?
89?
Yeah, that the CDF wrote andit's weak, it needs an update,
(44:57):
yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Well, I think this is a good place to jump over to
locals, because what I wouldlike to do is talk to you guys
about the apocalypse in the endtimes and whether what we're
seeing might be something moreapocalyptic.
So I don't like doing that onthis end because people say I'm
a black pillar and things likethat.
(45:20):
But if you guys want, we'regoing to go over to locals now
because they're not localsubscribers.
It's the best way to supportthe show and we're going to get
into.
I want to because I see I kindof see the things that are
happening right now as maybe alittle more significant than
just, oh, are we getting a goodconserve, a good pope or a bad
pope?
I kind of see things as heatingup and a climax to the story.
(45:41):
So I'd like to get you guysboth of your take on that
because, especially what Markjust said about the decaying
culture and the end ofChristendom, because very
clearly, christendom is over.
There is not really a Christianculture left.
So what role does the churchgoing forward play as society
continues to crumble?
(46:02):
So, mark Lambert, you are overat Catholic Unscripted.
If you guys are not subscribedto Catholic Unscripted, I am
going to be interviewingCatherine Bennett at 1 pm today,
who is also on with Mark andGavin Ashenden over on Catholic
Unscripted, michael Hichborn atthe Lepanto Institute.
If you guys are not subscribedto Michael, head over there and
(46:24):
also subscribe and get Michael'snewsletter, and we are going to
continue this conversation onthe other side.
I'm just going to cut you guysfrom YouTube off right about now
.
Let's see, okay, that one'sremoved.
Facebook's got to go.
I got a few I got to remove.
Hang on Facebook's got go.
I got a few I gotta remove.
(46:45):
Hang on Facebook's gotta go.
Should I leave it on X?
Nah, you guys don't even get towatch on X.
We gotta get rid of everything.
I'm gonna just leave it onrumble.
Rob does a lot but I'm notpaying attention.
(47:11):
That's rumble, that's locals.
We get rid of rumble to localsonly.
Okay, michael, I think youprobably are a little more.
I just want to make sure we'restill up on our locals.
(47:37):
Let me just check and make surewe're still live.
Okay, guys, you guys who are onlocals, let me know if we're
still live just a heads up.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I do have an interview at noon.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
No, we're not gonna be that long, you know, like 20
minutes, 20, 25 minutes.
I I just I want okay.
So I, because the way I seethings heading, uh, okay, local,
still good.
So I see everything like sincethe council and since pope paul,
the laying down his papal tiaraand the escalation of
(48:14):
everything since the councilcoming with the liturgy,
changing everything, like Idon't know if we're just in one
of those phases in churchhistory where it's like okay, we
got a good Pope and things kindof get fixed.
It feels like everything's kindof building to a climax right
now.
And you know, people say I'm ablack pillar for talking like
that and I'm all doom and gloom.
(48:35):
But I don't see it as doom andgloom because I do see a
glorious resurrection of thechurch before the end comes and
I think there's a possibility wemay witness it in our lifetimes
.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
Yeah, do you know that brilliant quote from
Monsignor Ronald Knox?
Speaker 1 (48:51):
No.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Which I think is probably, is probably, you know,
the best way of illustratingwhat you're saying, which is you
cannot kill the church.
He said that, um, she, thechurch, was buried in the
catacombs.
She rose again with constantine.
She died in the dark ages.
She rose again with charlemagne.
She died with the renaissance.
She rose again with the saintsof the counter-reformation.
You cannot kill the cath Church, and that's how I feel about it
(49:15):
.
And what did Jesus say?
Keep your wick trimmed and oilin your lamp.
You know, that's it, and let'sgo and have a beer.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, so I see it as are we going through the passion
of the church and if so, doesthat passion continue in the
days forward?
Now that passion can takedifferent forms and typically we
don't understand prophecy untilafter it's fulfilled.
And you see it in hindsight,like a lot of times even in your
own life, you'll think God hasabandoned you in a certain
(49:48):
period and meanwhile you realizelater on that, like he had his
hand in things the entire time.
I see everything we're goingthrough as part of the story of
salvation.
I know God completelyunderstands what's going on, but
I also see the radio addressBenedict put forth in the 1960s
where he talks about the churchlosing all of her prestige and
(50:10):
she's basically going to bestripped of all of her
privileges, and I think we'restill heading into that time.
I think the church has a lotmore to endure, like,
essentially, we've gone throughmaybe the scourging at the
pillar, but the church still hasto endure the crucifixion, and
I see that as the days thatwe're coming up to right now
before the resurrection beforethe resurrection.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.
I'm looking for a particularnewsletter that I wrote about
the suffering of the church andthe passion of the church,
because there's an analogy thatI used in it.
So here's one example.
All all right.
The following story comes fromthe end of the present world, by
father charles amignon.
In the evening of november 24th1248, the season was mild, the
(51:02):
air was calm, the stars twinkledin the sky, the whole valley
where the present town ofchambray is situated lay, quiet
and secure.
An evil, irreligious man thenruled tyrannically over the town
now gone forever, but which atthat time stood next to the city
of my story.
This man had gathered a largenumber of merry companions, with
(51:26):
banquets and drunken revelry.
He was celebrating thesacrilegious plunder of a
monastery that he turned toprofane use after mercilessly
expelling the monks and holyinmates who were the legitimate
owners.
Probably as in Balthazar's time, it was a sumptuous meal and
the wine and liqueurs, mingledwith blasphemies and sardonic
(51:48):
laughter, flowed in abundance.
Suddenly, in an instant, in themiddle of the night, the earth
was shaken by a tremendous shock.
Sky and ground seemed to beshaken by horrible whirlwinds,
voices and the howling of stormswhich you could have thought
came from the caverns of hell,and before the guests could rise
(52:09):
to their feet, before theycould utter a cry for help, they
were buried alive under thecollapsing mass of a gigantic
mountain.
One town, five hamlets and awhole region of 6,000
inhabitants were engulfed inchasms.
However, the sanctuary of Maia,which should have been crushed
(52:29):
under the avalanche of stones,remained intact.
Boulders surrounded it on allsides and others stopped right
at its doorstep, but nonereached the sanctuary.
Inside the sanctuary at thetime of the disasters were the
monks who had left Amignon inthe morning.
They were praying to the blackvirgin at the precise moment
(52:52):
that giant landslides occurred.
All the monks survived.
There's an anecdote to this oran attachment to this.
According to Matthew Paris, whochronicled this event, quote
when the wicked Lord and all theother inhabitants had been
engulfed, the monks heard Sataninciting the evil spirits to
(53:12):
complete the their work ofdestruction saying further,
further still.
Destroy the chapel.
To which they replied we can't,because the black prevents us.
She is stronger than us.
Yeah, so the point of that is toshow look, you had evil men who
took command of this monastery.
(53:34):
You could look at thatmonastery as a representation of
Holy Mother Church, and you canalso look at the evil men being
the robbers who have takencontrol of Holy Mother Church,
the cardinals that wereappointed by Pope Francis, you
know the Cupiches, the McElroy's, the, the, the Tobin's and so
(53:55):
forth.
There are so many of these evil, wicked men that are now being
drunk in revelry and utteringblasphemies drunk, yeah.
And then what happens?
In the middle of the night,they get buried alive by a
mountain.
I think that the same thing iswhat is going to happen to Holy
Mother Church.
(54:15):
There will be some sort ofcataclysm to that extent,
because God will not allow hischurch to be buried by wicked
men, and their wickedness willbury them.
Look at what happened toKordath and Anabiram when they
rebelled against Holy MotherChurch God opened up a chasm and
swallowed them whole into hell.
It's going to happen, it's oneof those inevitabilities,
(54:40):
because God will not permit themto bury his bride.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
So I think the way, mark, you were describing it was
the church works in centuries.
I see it more like whatMichael's saying here.
I see a, I see something hugeon the horizon where God is
going to make himself known thatit is.
It's going to appear as allhope is lost.
(55:06):
But I do think, I think eveneven Francis was a purification
for us, for those of us who takethe faith seriously, to dig in
deeper and be prepared for whatis to come, because I think
something major is on thehorizon.
I know we've been saying thisfor a long time, but you think
about everything we've endured,especially the last decade.
(55:27):
But it starts with especiallythe priest scandals and just the
way the church has just beenmocked.
And then you get up to Francisbringing the Pachamama into Rome
.
All these things are sosignificant that I don't see it
as, oh you know, maybe in a fewcenturies we'll have some you
know, the conservative priest.
(55:48):
They'll be our leaders in thelong run.
I see the mess as so rottenthat it is going to take a
divine act to clear it out, andI think God is going to do
something like that.
Now, I'm not a seer, but Ialways have Our Lady of Fatima
in mind, where she talks aboutthe city and ruins and things
like that, and I think we'reworking our way towards
(56:09):
something like that, our waytowards something like that.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
Yeah, maybe you could be right.
I always think of the parableof the.
You know the vineyard, wherethe vineyard, they kick out the.
You know the sun, they kill thesun.
Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yeah, they kill First they kill the people who go out
and announce and theneventually they kill the sun.
Speaker 3 (56:33):
And you know, I just think like that's.
If I was clergy I'd beabsolutely terrified to be part
of what's going on in the church.
And you know, even with prieststhat I know who are kind of,
you know saying oh Francis wasso merciful, or whatever now to
people no, that's what I'msaying.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
you know saying oh Francis was so merciful or
whatever now to people Are youhonest?
Speaker 3 (56:55):
No, that's what I'm saying, it's just that.
And yet I don't know a priestwho actually thinks that Francis
was good in any way for thechurch or for the people or for
anything.
So I find that very.
I don't think I could tell lieslike that if it was me.
I find that very.
I don't think I could tell lieslike that if it was me.
And there's always this thingabout you know, covering up for
(57:18):
the church in some way, and Ithink that that's a grave
mistake.
I think we should be tellingthe truth and we should be
committed to the truth.
So but yeah, I mean it wouldn'tsurprise me if there was a
correction I don't know about.
All hope is gone, though.
I kind of think.
Speaker 1 (57:34):
No, all hope won't be gone.
It will appear as though allhope is gone, because that's
kind of how God works throughoutsalvation history, where you
think you know all hope is lostand then all of a sudden God
does something dramatic and youknow he had his hand over the
church the entire time.
Speaker 3 (57:55):
That's all I'm thinking.
I think I see that in thechurch all the time, and I see
it in interactions I have withother people.
You know, one of the thingsthat Pope Francis pushed me to
do was to get involved with thelocal Baptist community.
Speaker 1 (58:06):
For some reason, you know, I know Bible studies with
them right.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
Yeah, but it's been glorious, like in lots of ways,
and I get to tell them catholicthings all the time and they
sort of seem to quite enjoy itand, like you know, I think that
that it's amazing the way thatgood comes out of these things.
If you, if you're looking forthe positive, and I really do
see, like one of the priests whoI was speaking to after the
(58:32):
Pope's death said to me that thefact that he inserted St Joseph
into the canon made a massivedifference to his prayer life.
The fact that he said thosethings about the, the
confessional not being a torturechamber, meant that huge swaths
of people of a certain age, youknow, who had, who had been,
(58:54):
who felt that they had been kindof abused by the confessional,
by priests in the confessional,came back to the sacrament of
confession and there was andthere was a huge outpouring of
grace from that.
So, you know, I think that youcan, even in times when we feel
that we're being internallypersecuted, for the faithful,
for those of us who love thechurch and love the faith, god
(59:15):
is working, you know, all thetime, and doing amazing things
and you just gotta keep youreyes open and keep praying and
and and using the church, youknow, using the teaching of the
church to help people live theirlives.
And I think it's there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, um,it's not what you want to hear.
Well, no, I, I've noticed, I'venoticed this.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
There's always.
There's always differentreactions.
People have to that because,look, we're catholic, so we
don't want to have thatapocalyptomania right where
you're like always like that's.
Speaker 3 (59:48):
That's a very protestant thing I just think be
ready, you know that's.
I just think be ready and maybeit will.
I just think be ready.
And maybe it will happen.
And please God, I'll be in astate of grace when the you know
the coming of Christ falls.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
I just see the story of salvation history as a very
big story and what we've watchedhappen to the church over the
last decades is a verysignificant part of that story.
And it feels like, because ofwhat we're seeing in the culture
, specifically how we you know,if you look to the early
centuries of the church, how itwas, the pagan altars were
(01:00:25):
coming down and the Catholicaltars were being raised and
Christianity spread across theearth what you're seeing now is
a reversal of that and theCatholic altars are coming down
and these pagan gods are comingback up.
And it seems like a verysignificant point in the story
where we are now like the youknow it goes back to the story
of King Arthur, where you knowKing Arthur's coming into this
(01:00:48):
pagan world and you still havethe old gods are around and
stuff like that, butChristianity is on the the rise
and it seems like it's a totalreversal.
It's like a typologicalinversion of that, where we're
seeing, you know, we no longerhave our priests doing
processions with incense to wardoff these evil spirits.
It seems like these evilspirits are coming back out and
(01:01:09):
people are worship, worshipingthem out in public now and
you're seeing the pagan godsreturn and I I think that is a
it's more significant than justum, you know.
But but I also, I I see there'stwo different.
There's two different reactionsto when I talk like that.
Some people are like, no, comeon, you're overblowing things.
(01:01:30):
And then there's people whokind of see it the way I do.
I don't think either of us cansay who's right or wrong.
It's a matter of just lettingthe story play out, and that's
the only way to find out.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
The Reconquista took almost a thousand years.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
You know there's, there's that, but then there's
also the sudden reversals thatwe've seen in in history as well
.
We don't know how God's goingto play it out.
I think a lot of it depends onhow much penance we actually do
for Holy Mother Church and a lotdepends on us.
A whole lot depends on us.
The graces that are won bythose who are willing to do
(01:02:05):
penance can't be counted.
You can't calculate that, and Ithink it's incumbent upon us to
pray unceasingly for God todeliver us from the plight of
the modernists.
Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Man, you think about all of us that are up here
complaining about the church,who aren't doing penances?
We will be held to the sameaccount as those bishops who are
destroying the church.
It's like you want to point thefinger and you're not doing
anything in your personal lifeto actually restore the church.
We'll, because we're presentingourselves as as something I
(01:02:40):
don't know.
If we're presenting ourselvesas teachers.
Yes, yeah, so maybe we'll end onthat note.
This was a very, very fun guys.
I knew it would be an uh, an,an interesting show getting the
three of us together.
I, I, I pray that another eventcomes along where we could get
Mark to fly into the States andthe three of us get to spend
(01:03:00):
another weekend, because I had alot of fun with you guys.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
We'll put the program together and we'll all be
drinking beer.
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
Well, next time we should live stream something.
We'll do something in person,because there's a very big
difference in doing this onscreen and being in front of
each other, cause some of theconversations we had that
weekend were so good and youknow especially when you got a
pint in your hand and you're you.
Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
let you guard that a little bit so we'll set up a
table and have have Rob clickingthe camera angles while he was
set up.
Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
And he popped in to fix a few things we didn't we
didn't see his face, but hepopped in to fix a few things
while we were on air.
So, all right, man, look, it'sgoing to be an exciting few
weeks coming up.
We have a conclave coming andall of the prognosticating we
(01:03:51):
did over the last hour or so.
We will see how these thingsget fulfilled as time plays out.
Yeah, so, man, it's an excitingtime to be Catholic, amen.
So, all right, boys, we willspeak again.
Everybody, I will see you guysat one o'clock when I interview
Catherine and the, the, the, the.
The streaming mayhem onavoiding Babylon today continues
.
All right, I'm going to end itnow.
(01:04:13):
I'm so bad at this.
(01:04:41):
Thank you.
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