September 26, 2025 • 64 mins
The Catholic world stands at a crossroads following Pope Leo's election, with traditional Catholics debating the best path forward. Should they maintain the same vocal criticism that characterized the Francis era, or adopt a more measured approach that might secure broader access to traditional liturgy? This tension has sparked heated debate within Catholic media circles.
Matt Gaspers joins the conversation, expressing his growing skepticism about Pope Leo. Despite the new pontiff's improved aesthetics and more dignified demeanor, Gaspers argues Leo appears substantively aligned with his predecessor on doctrinal matters. This observation leads to a profound discussion about the nature of the Church in our time - is she experiencing her Passion, much like Christ after His scourging?
The hosts examine Chris Jackson's recent article criticizing what he terms the "indult for quiet" strategy - the notion that traditional Catholics should soften their criticism in exchange for liturgical permissions. This debate reveals deeper divisions about effective resistance in an era where doctrinal confusion seems to reign, while the traditional Latin Mass faces increasing restrictions.
The conversation takes on apocalyptic dimensions as the hosts consider whether we're witnessing the culmination of Christian history. References to unfulfilled aspects of the Fatima message, particularly regarding Russia's conversion, suggest divine intervention may be necessary where human solutions fall short. Yet, amid these sobering reflections, a call for personal sanctity and faithful witness remains.
What emerges is a thoughtful exploration of how to preserve authentic Catholicism when the visible structures appear compromised. Is strategic prudence the wisest approach, or does it risk surrendering essential truths? The answers aren't simple, but the questions deserve our serious consideration as we navigate these unprecedented waters together.
Take advantage of Recusant Cellar's "Christ the King" sale by heading over to https://recusantcellars.com/ and using code "REXCAELORUM" for 20% off at checkout!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
I gotta say the taffy intro this week wasn't the
greatest, and I didn't make himredo it.
And we'll play it on locals.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
He did he did tell us he was gonna be too busy
today to actually so like Idon't know, it was all right.
SPEAKER_06 (00:45):
It just is that your hand, Anthony, pulling out the
sword.
SPEAKER_02 (00:52):
Um I woke up this morning to Matt DMing me.
Uh well, so we had Matt bookedalready, right?
Like, so like me and Matt hadhave been speaking for weeks
about getting him on, and Itexted him last night and I was
like, I have no idea what we'retalking about tomorrow.
I was like, I'll I'll findsomething during the day and
I'll text you the topic.
SPEAKER_03 (01:12):
That was the last text you had sent me, too.
You're like, I don't even knowwhat we're gonna talk about
tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
And then I went to bed, and then I woke up this
morning to uh like a group chatbetween me, Rob, and Matt.
And Matt goes, Oh, look, theywrote an article about me.
Chris Jackson wrote an articleabout you.
So I started off by day like notreading the article, I was just
like, they got the nerve tocome.
Really, boys, you guys thinkthis is gonna go well for you?
(01:38):
Like, that was my initialreaction.
I'm like, You guys think youthink this will go well for you?
Okay, but then I read it andfive minutes ago.
I calmed down a bit.
Well, yeah, but even just the Ilike I calmed down a bit, and I
was like, you know, the um thethe last episode we did, um, we
(01:59):
had Wagner on, and he wasprobably like it was probably a
in bad taste to have thatconversation with Wagner on.
Like Wagner's not a trad.
It wasn't, it was we weresupposed to talk about Lofton
that night, and then Lofton madepeace with Wagner behind the
scenes.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah, kind of killed us, kind of killed the topic for
that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Completely killed the topic, and I I had this
stuff brewing in my mind, and Iwas like, maybe we'll just talk
about that because I had thiswhole thing in my head that I
was just mulling over just bywatching like how Catholic media
has been behaving since Leo gotelected.
By the way, welcome MattGaspers.
It's been a while since we'veseen you.
SPEAKER_06 (02:38):
Thank you guys.
Congrats, by the way, on gettingto 50,000.
Thank you.
Speaking of speaking of MichaelLofton, you're only 50,000 away
from having the the silver whatYouTube plaque.
We need that plaque, guys.
Remember when he made a videoabout that, a rap video?
That was pretty sweet.
My question is, do they do willthey send each of you one or do
(03:00):
you have to share one?
We'll probably have to share.
SPEAKER_03 (03:02):
I think we'll have to we you probably have to buy.
SPEAKER_02 (03:04):
I think you can buy an additional.
Oh, so you could probably buymore than one, yeah.
Um, so all right, so so we hadWag Wagner on, Wagner, Wagner,
whatever you guys want to say.
Wagner, Wagner, Wagner.
Um, and he was probably thewrong person to have on for that
conversation.
Now, where my thought processwas when we had that, and I was
very tired, I'd been sick for aweek, I hadn't slept.
(03:28):
My thought process wasn'tactually about like how to
handle Leo.
My thought process was more holycow, I'm watching outfits that
like exploded during COVID andhad this adversarial
relationship to Francis andtheir their media empires, but
like like life's like news was ajuggernaut during the pandemic,
(03:51):
like they were huge.
That my i i remember speakingwith John Henry Weston, and he
and when it when he first losthis YouTube channel during
COVID, and he had to start a newone.
He was like, I would put up avideo of anything and it would
get 100,000 views.
He goes, Then we had to startthat new channel, and it was
like you could barely get anyviews on it.
And now I'm watching what'shappening, and I just see
(04:14):
there's no appetite for thatkind of media, and that was
where my and I was just thinkingabout like these guys have to
change up their content becauseyou're not going to get views
doing the bash the Pope thing,like there's just no appetite
for it in in the content space.
That was where I was going.
Wasn't thinking so much likeit's in like that's a bad
(04:36):
strategy for Leo, but it kind ofdid go there, and I and I'm
still not a hundred percent surewhich side of that debate I fall
on.
I see both sides of the argumentin okay, you still have to
attack the source of it atVatican II because that clearly
was a revolutionary event, andthen I see the other side of it
(04:59):
where it's like chill out, let'sget our Latin mass, let's
reposition, let's let's you knowcome up with a game plan and a
long-term strategy.
So, Matt, where are you fallingin on this on this conversation?
SPEAKER_06 (05:10):
Well, on Monday of this week, Ryan Grant and I did
like a three plus hour yeah, trywatching that.
It was it was long.
It was way longer than I thoughtit would go.
But I mean, we we dove prettydeep into the crux interview,
and I'm kind of I'm basicallyrunning out of patience, I would
(05:31):
say, with Pope Leo.
I think it's becoming clearer bythe day that he is in a certain
sense a Francis the Second, uhbetter aesthetics, uh more
polite and dignified, perhaps,but not really different
substantially when it comes todoctrine.
And I think those who arepretending otherwise are really
(05:51):
being silly at this point.
I mean, like you don't want oneexample I gave during our show,
and I I greatly respect, I likeDr.
Gavin Ashenden, but it's justgonna bring him up.
Please stop with the with theCatholic Qon.
It's so stupid.
Just stop, just stop.
SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
Gavin's English, so he's like, he's like, you have
to read him in code, and youhave to understand he's speaking
in code to us.
It's like, no, he's not.
No, no, he's not.
The guy stinks.
Not trusting the plan at thispoint.
SPEAKER_06 (06:27):
If you're trusting the plan at this point, you are
you have lost the plot entirely,dude.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
It's man, the the point I'm at now.
He here's where I really fall onit.
And I've been trying to thinkabout like what is my position
on this.
Um, and what what do I think ofof Leo and Rob?
I sent a picture of uh oh, itdidn't go through.
(06:56):
I wonder why.
Um, I I I've been mulling overthis in my head, and I just see
uh the church since the councilas the church in its passion.
And when you see Christ after hescourged at the pillar, and
Pilate brings him before thecrowd and he says, Eche homo,
(07:20):
it's like behold the man.
Like you you're looking at themessiah, but it doesn't look
like it, it doesn't look likethe messiah.
SPEAKER_06 (07:27):
You're looking at God, you're looking at God, and
when you how many people believethat he was God at that moment?
SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
At that moment, many, and when I look at when I
look at the church right now,that's what I see.
It's very difficult to say thisis the church.
This is the church, this is thebody of Christ, and it's it's
it's a hard.
I'm trying to figure out what mybest approach is to bring young
(07:57):
people to the church when thechurch is in that state, because
to point out everything wrongwith it, I don't know if that
sends them down the Sede Road,if that sends them to Eastern
Orthodoxy.
I'm trying to figure out how tolike bring people in and help
them gain faith.
SPEAKER_06 (08:15):
One other element that I think is very important
for people to understand aboutthat analogy, and this is
stressed by John Salza andRobert Sisko in the introduction
to their book, True or FalsePope, which I highly recommend.
Who did that?
Who was the ultimate cause ofour Lord?
I forget there are differentkinds of causes, like the
(08:35):
instrumental cause, it was theold testament hierarchy who did
that to him.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Oh, we're doing the Jew thing already.
I thought we were gonna wait forlocals.
We're doing that now, all right.
We can do it now.
SPEAKER_06 (08:47):
Meaning that the the old you know, the the Israel of
the Old Testament, the hierarchyof Israel did that to our Lord,
so it that means that it'spossible for the New Testament
hierarchy to do the same thingto his mystical body.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Typologically, that's exactly how I see it.
I see it as and and you're goingto have the old testament, the
people of the old testament,mixed in with that, and you're
gonna see there's going to be aJudas element, there's going to
be the I mean, if you think thatthe the high priest and the
Sanhedrin prefigure the Pope andthe Cardinals, you will see
(09:25):
elements of that typology playout in the end.
Um, but it is still the church,and I still do think Leo is a
valid pope.
I think he is I think he is theembodiment uh of uh the council.
Like I don't think Leo, I don'tthink Francis was.
I think Francis was like way outthere, he was a nut.
(09:46):
And I think Leo is more theembodiment of the council, which
is this timid Catholicism,unsure of itself, afraid to
preach the truth boldly.
And it's embodied in Leo thesame way Peter denies Christ.
Not that he ever says he's notthe Messiah, he just denies
knowing him.
(10:07):
And it and there's elements ofseeing that in the in the
hierarchy since the council,where they're almost like
ashamed to, you know, and I'veI've gotten I've gotten heat
from people for saying thisbefore, but uh it's the only way
I can make sense of it, I thinksomething because we all can see
(10:28):
like the Catholicism that wastaught before the council is
very different than theCatholicism that is taught now.
Something revolutionary happenedat that council and in the the
following decades, right?
Like the we're all seeing it,and I think I under under
Francis, I took the positionwhere it was like, all right,
I'm gonna give leeway to peoplewho fall on different sides of
(10:49):
the argument here on where theyend up.
Like, okay, maybe Francis is ananti-pope, maybe Benedict didn't
resign, maybe you know, I Iallowed for people to ponder
that and come to a differentconclusion than myself.
And what I'm seeing under Leo iswhich is kind of funny because
there's a whole group of newguys who are calling calling
some guys trad inc, which it'slike well, they won't they won't
(11:11):
actually name who they meet.
That's kind of the funny thing.
Yeah, guys, man up, come on, saynames, let's go.
We like a little beef.
Like Catholic Esquire.
What level of heresy does Leohave to teach before anyone can
conclude he cannot possibly bethe Pope?
How bad does the heresy have toget?
SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
Well, okay, so I was JP2 Pope then.
SPEAKER_06 (11:29):
My like I ask Bellerman, Catholic Esquire.
Bellerman says warnings arenecessary per Titus chapter
three, verses 10 to 11.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
So so what I'll say is um, so Chris Jackson wrote
this article, right?
I love Chris Jackson's writings,like I really do.
Catholic Esquire.
I watch every one of his videos,like I actually enjoy them all.
I'm still just not settled onwhere I come down on it, but
(12:01):
this just is how I this is Iwant this is where I'm making
sense of it right now.
SPEAKER_06 (12:05):
See Steven is in the chat as well.
Hello, Steven.
Good to see you.
He says, Yes, we have Matt.
So who do you mean?
Say in the chat who do you meanwhen you say they mean Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (12:15):
Marshall, Dr.
Kwasnevsky, Michael Matt are thethree musketeers of Trad Inc.
SPEAKER_06 (12:20):
That's that's their is that does it stop there?
Who else are you guys talkingabout?
SPEAKER_03 (12:25):
I prefer three amigos personally, but um I
okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
So look, here what I was trying to get at in that
last episode, though, wasn'tthat um you guys shouldn't
continue criticizing.
I I like you guys are the newguys trying to like start a
platform, and and for for guyslike me and Rob and even Matt,
we have day jobs.
This is kind of like a side gig,right?
So for me, it kind of I itdoesn't matter.
(12:52):
It's for me.
Like me and Rob just are havingfun on a podcast talking about
this stuff.
We like to discuss what's goingon in the Catholic world, but
for an outfit like Life Site,they have to make a decision
like where do we move forwardwith our content?
Because what position you takeon this can determine whether
your outfit survives or not.
Um, I I laughed at Stephen Coxwhen he said originally that um
(13:16):
Michael Matt and Marshall maybegot orders from uh Cardinal
Burke.
And then the more I thoughtabout that, I was like, maybe
maybe I mean it's it I don'tknow because I know Michael Matt
has a good relationship withCardinal Burke, like it is
possible, it's not likecompletely out of the realm of
possibility.
I'm sure you don't think it's Ithink it's unlikely, but it's
not out of the realm ofpossibility.
SPEAKER_03 (13:36):
Yeah, I it's not like they got a call on the
backbone television.
SPEAKER_06 (13:40):
I have a sincere question for all in relation to
all the Trad Inc stuff.
If if that's Trad Inc.
seriously, isn't there a saidink also?
Nova Sordo Watch, the WM review.
I mean, they they use thesimilar talking points.
Um Steven seems to be verysympathetic to seducantism,
(14:02):
perhaps even I think all threeseems guys.
SPEAKER_02 (14:05):
I mean, I when I read when I read Chris Jackson,
and look, I here's the thinglike even I don't want to get
certain people who still have umvalid orders in their diocese in
trouble, but like very goodfriends, priests that I know
fall in that category as well.
They don't think Leo is a validpope.
Um I I would I mean fromlistening to Father Isaac, I
(14:27):
would I would imagine he holdsthat position too.
I don't know, he hasn't like Ihe hasn't flat out said it, but
like these are all guys I loveand respect and I listen to and
pay attention to what they'resaying and take their arguments
into account.
I also do listen to what MichaelMatt is saying, and and I'm and
I'm watching Taylor's position,and I'm seeing uh like they're
(14:50):
trying to develop a strategy forthe long term, and uh these guys
are saying like the the indultposition is stupid, but I'm also
looking at I'm watching theolder guys have absolutely no
ability to connect to theyounger generation, like it's
just they're just incapable ofit.
There's some there's somethingmissing there.
(15:11):
So you you guys are gonnacontinue speaking to the Gen X
crowd and and the boomer crowd,but the younger generation isn't
connecting with with that.
So I don't know, I don't know.
I mean, I'm I'm just kind ofhere watching all this go down,
and um I'm not I'm not tryingI'm not trying to like I'm not
trying to play all sides.
(15:33):
I genuinely have not figured outlike the correct answer to this.
I just know what happened at thecouncils is insane.
Everything that's happened sincethen seems completely bonkers,
but I also know or I alsobelieve that Christ made a
promise that the gates of hellwould not prevail, and I think
that it will look like the gatesof hell prevailed, and then at
(15:54):
the last minute, God's going todo something incredible that
will shock us all.
SPEAKER_06 (16:02):
I think the main difference between myself and
those who are using the the tradink pejorative is that I even if
I disagree, like I don't agreewith everything Michael Matt
says.
He's a friend of mine.
Yeah, I don't even necessarilyagree with everything uh Taylor
Marshall says, another friend ofmine, but I'm not gonna go on
the attack against thempublicly.
(16:23):
That's just I don't that's invery bad taste.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
It's in very bad taste, but I do remember like
when you're coming up and you'retrying to make a name for
yourself, you go, you know, youpunch up, right?
And I think that's what thoseguys are doing.
They're punching up, like in ain a way, those guys have
controlled the conversation fora very long time, right?
SPEAKER_06 (16:40):
Like, like and frankly, rightfully so.
Michael Matt has been in thisfight longer than some of these
people have even been alive.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
Yeah, he's been doing this since you're dying.
SPEAKER_06 (16:50):
Settled down his his family's been doing it for
generations, so get you know, hedeserves some respect, whether
you agree completely with him ornot.
That that deserves some respect,yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
And what'll happen, and this is what I was kind of
getting at last episode, also,is you guys will get some
traction by punching up and calland doing the trading thing, but
you're gonna be you're gonna belike put into a corner and
you're never going to escapethat corner, you're just not.
It's I mean, it's just gonna beyou're gonna pigeonhole yourself
(17:24):
into a very specific situation,and you're gonna find yourself
having very few people who wantto collaborate with you because
of that, and you're going to belike persona non grata for
anybody who might actually enjoyyou, but it has a relationship
with those guys, too.
SPEAKER_03 (17:38):
Because I mean, similar to how relationship with
them, similar to how so-calledTrad Inc.
was was kind of uh put in acorner over the you know, over
the the Francis pontificate.
Like it literally took for aPope to die for Dr.
K to get on Matt Fred, yeah.
You know, it like in they'rehaving a the that group or
(17:59):
whatever you want to call it ishaving a hard time breaking out
of the I don't know what youwant to call it, the the not
Pope Splainer, the Popecomplainer, I guess.
I think you don't need like likeso yeah, you gotta yeah, not I
don't want to say you gotta becareful doing that because you
should stick to whateverprinciples you know you do hold,
(18:20):
but uh that well you gotta beaware of the consequences.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
That's that's that's what I'm that's what I'm getting
at, right?
So and and I do think those guysare paying attention to these to
the to the new guys because I Isee they're they're reacting
without saying their names, alsoright now.
Now the I don't mind saying youguys' names because I nobody you
mind putting them in athumbnail.
(18:46):
Like I don't mind sayingpeople's names because I don't
care.
I actually like I want to seeeverybody succeed at this thing,
and I know how difficult it isto like make a name for you.
Like it was hard getting ourchannel to have any kind of like
noticeability and stuff.
So I don't like I'm always gonnatry and bring up the new guys.
Um, not that you guys areyounger than me or anything,
(19:06):
it's just the guys new in thecontent arena.
Now I know Stephen Cox has beendoing this for 15 years, but
he's now on his own and he's youknow doing a channel on his own.
Catholic Esquire.
I just came across recently,like in the past few months.
Um, and then uh Chris Jackson Icame across uh with the Baron
interview.
That was the first time I readChris Jackson.
It was the band we read hissubstance.
(19:27):
That was a very good, very goodarticle, really well right, like
a really good writer, yeah.
Right?
Like it's just I I'm not tryingto do the ecumenism thing here,
right?
Like I'm just uh I don't know,man.
I I'm I'm trying to figure outlike the way forward under Leo.
I don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_06 (19:47):
Who would have thought Anthony would be the
voice of moderation?
SPEAKER_03 (19:50):
Well said he did ever since he was in high
school, starting fights so hecan moderate him.
SPEAKER_02 (19:55):
I'm I'm sure Chris has I'm sure Chris has been
around for a long time, but hehasn't come across my radar,
right?
So that was the first time Chriscame across my radar.
SPEAKER_06 (20:03):
Let me just be clear.
I still consider Stephen Cox afriend.
I still consider Chris Jackson afriend.
They're both very good writers,jerk, good journalists.
Um, so it's not personal, I justdon't agree with the the crusade
against trading.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, Chris Jackson used towrite for the remnant, and I'm
sure the remnant took all hisstuff down since he's been on
the Trad Inc.
Crusade, I would I wouldimagine.
SPEAKER_06 (20:26):
I mean, I don't know, but that actually came up
recently that um a Nova Sordowatch Mario Dirksen posted about
that, and um I checked, tried tofind Chris's old articles.
They do appear to have beenscrubbed.
Um yeah, it is what it is.
I mean, I don't know, and Idon't necessarily agree with
that decision either, but it iswhat it is.
(20:48):
But it's a it's I mean it's apretty obvious consequence to
the I would assume I wouldassume that there is a very
direct cause and effectrelationship between the Trading
Crusade and his articles nolonger being accessible, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
Yeah, the the thing is I do I do like I I do want to
have this conversation about thelike the proper way forward in
this because something needs tothere something needs to be
done.
There needs to be some kind of aplan for opposing some of this
(21:25):
crazy stuff we're seeing in thechurch.
I mean, you have it's kind ofodd that you finally actually
had six bishops come out andcondemn Supic for what he's
doing with this this award onseven now, seven, seven bishops
now come at coming out againstSupic, but I don't think that
would have happened under Franceon under Francis.
I'm not saying that means Leo iswhatever, it's just I I just
(21:45):
think there's a differenttemperature in the room under
Leo, and he does seem like hekind of wants to unify things in
some way, whatever that means.
But I also know, like I I wasmaking fun of the Charlie Kirk
memorial, and then people werelike, Yeah, but dude, look at
Nova's look at the Nova Sordo,and it's like the yeah, like the
Nova Sordo is just as silly.
SPEAKER_06 (22:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's basically that what they did
there was more or less I've seenit many times a Steubenville
conference or any other kind ofretreat, like diocesan style
retreat.
It's pretty much what happens.
Just substitute um the artiststhat were there.
I forget some.
I mean, and I enjoy some of thatmusic.
I don't think it's bad music.
(22:28):
I mean, I listen to it when I'mdriving for work and stuff
sometimes.
Um, I don't obviously it's notappropriate for well, it kind of
takes me back to my my heydayand my rock nostalgia.
Yeah, nostalgic.
Um, what was I gonna say?
It's obviously not appropriatefor Holy Mass or the liturgy.
That doesn't mean that it's evileither, though.
(22:49):
I mean, and those people, ifthat's all they know and they
are truly sincerely worshipingGod.
I mean, several of them, severalof the artists have come out and
said, Man, that was a reallypowerful experience, and who
knows if it was just anemotional high.
I don't know, but hopefully somepeople are actually going to
convert as a result of this.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
Convert to what, though, is I think their
position, right?
Convert to what?
Like you you convert, and likethere are there are versions of
Catholicism that are presentedto people that they convert to
that aren't truly Catholic,right?
Like some of it's such sillinessthat you just you're like, man,
this is this is this is soforeign and alien to what was
(23:33):
taught to the generations beforethat you have to say, like, is
this Catholic at this point?
You know, so why don't we gothrough Chris's article, Rob?
You want to bring it up?
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
Yeah, let me find it here.
SPEAKER_02 (23:47):
It's in the it's in the thread between Matt and and
uh the between the three of us.
Um, and yeah, I did I did see uhhow do you pronounce his name?
Vadi Basham?
Basham.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Who is that?
SPEAKER_02 (23:58):
Vadi Bocam, I don't know.
He's a Protestant minister thateverybody's saying went straight
to heaven.
Um, it after we discussed thisarticle, I do want to talk about
the Protestant canonization ofCharlie Kirk, like because some
of the stuff that they're doingis so Catholic and they're and
it's insane.
SPEAKER_06 (24:16):
Yeah, I saw your post about that.
They want to make some kind ofcommemorative coin of him or
something, and you were likerazzing them about their
idolatry or something.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
It's but it's like they're so blind to what they're
doing that they man, we'll do itafter because I that deserves
its own segment.
SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
Like I mean, they're doing they're just doing what
American Protestants have alwaysdone.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
Yes, get rid of the heroes of the Catholic faith and
replace them with uh secularheroes, like that's what they've
always done.
But like kid like do the sameexact thing, but say it's not
it's different when they do it,basically.
But um, we will get to superchats also, but uh all right,
you got the article?
Uh so from Chris Jackson, in arecent Avoiding Babylon episode
(25:01):
entitled Will Pope Leo Kill theTrad movement, the hosts argued
that traditional Catholicsshould move on from constant
criticism of Leo.
Their counsel was clear, turndown the outrage machine of the
Francis years, lower your voice,receive the supposed olive
branch, and trust that quietdeference might secure broader
access to the Latin.
SPEAKER_03 (25:18):
I don't think we argued that at all, though.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
I I I did well, kind of not.
I mean, my my my broader pointwas more about like the Catholic
media stuff, but I did kind ofsay this.
Um, and uh they even warned thatRome watches Anglo-Catholic
media, implying that too muchagitation could cost families
their sacraments.
And I did say that.
I'm like, I think that's apossibility, yeah.
(25:41):
I I still do think that, so liketoo much agitation from I mean,
not from guys like us, we're toosmall, but if Marshall and and
Michael Matt are continuing thesame thing as they did under
Francis, I do think it would bevery I mean we we've we've seen
more more than enough examplesof vindictive bishops who if
(26:03):
they have a especially if theyhave a big influencer in their
diocese.
SPEAKER_03 (26:07):
Uh you can't tell me the bishop of Charlotte
wouldn't, yeah.
I mean, he's already done it,obviously, but someone like that
is vindictive enough to kill aTLM because of uh a YouTube
video.
You can't tell me that's notnecessarily the case.
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
So it was in effect a manifesto for silence, silence
in exchange for stability.
Silence is a new strategy forsurvival.
No, it wasn't.
Um, but they framed it.
But what they framed as prudenceis in reality a trap.
It recasts vigilance asdisloyalty and asked parents to
buy liturgical crumbs at thecost of doctrinal surrender.
That is not mercy, it's adevil's bargain designed to
(26:43):
guarantee 20 years of muzzledpreaching while the revolution
cements itself as officialCatholicism.
So I would argue that what itactually is is allows parents to
have the traditional liturgy andthen form their children
themselves.
Yeah.
Like it's not, it's not that.
Like you're going to oh, you'reyou it's nothing, and you guys
(27:05):
aren't proposing a better plan.
Like your your your approach isnot doing anything.
SPEAKER_06 (27:12):
But it can I give you some insight as to why they
think the way that they do, atleast I think in in Steven's
case, I don't know about theothers, but I mean, I'm pretty
sure I remember him sayingpublicly, uh, you know, you
don't there's no you have noneed of being in commute any
kind of communion with yourlocal bishop.
I mean, I think the presumptionis that every diocesan bishop is
(27:34):
a heretic, basically, and youdon't, you know, so you go to
the SSPX, you don't need anapproved traditional Latin mass,
but the problem is that therearen't the SSPX isn't
everywhere, you know.
Yeah, and or also they I thinkthey would uh they would say go
to a said chapel, and that has awhole other set of problems with
(27:55):
it because and they're noteverywhere either.
Well, yeah, practicallyspeaking, first of all, but you
know, more spiritually speaking,like that's my main concern with
this new crusade against TradInc.
I think it's really about tryingto legitimize 1958 set of
contism.
I know obviously I know that'sthe case with the WM review.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
Uh yeah, I'm not buying that thesis either.
Like, I'm sorry, like I do likeyou guys, and I do um I do think
you guys make a lot of goodpoints.
I'm not buying the 1958 SETAthesis, it's just not convincing
to me.
It's too much um it's too muchlike theory, like it's a good
theory, but too much theory, andthere's no proof to it, and
(28:39):
there's no solutions offered.
There's no solution to it, andthen if you start getting and I
try talking to um Mario andKevin about this, like if if
your position is that the novusordo sacraments and the novus
ordo orders are invalid, likethe church is done.
SPEAKER_06 (28:57):
Exactly, and that is part and part that's what people
need to understand.
That is part and parcel with1958 Cedivicantism.
A lot of people don't realizethat Cedivicantists hold that
there are no legitimate diocesanbishops anywhere in the world.
Anyone ordained after thecouncil is invalid, uh the new
rites are completely invalid,there is no more visible church.
(29:20):
That is the logical end of theirsystem.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
And and and Gregory, it's not oh no evil sedes.
Like, I have conversations withyou guys, I just like I just
don't buy the theory.
I'm sorry.
Like it's there's a bit ofGnosticism in it.
It just is.
It's like, oh, I know thissecret thing happened, and that
the Pope was a Freemason andthat invalidated the papacy.
(29:44):
It's like, no, like I don't Idon't I don't buy it.
I'm sorry.
Maybe you do, and I'm notjudging you for it.
I I think there's evidence forit.
I just it's not enough proof forme.
Um so um the claim on the table,thesis, stop naming error.
And Leo will be freer or moreinclined to expand the old
right.
Implied cost, criticismendangers permissions, silence
(30:07):
purchases them.
It's not like you're saying I'mimplying that, but I'm not.
I'm just saying slow down for alittle bit and let's see where
this goes before you go intofull attack mode.
It's more just a bit of it is abit of prudence in this area.
Um, goals spare families fromdriving four hours for a TLM
baptism right, uh, fortraditional right baptism and
(30:29):
rotating chapels by strategicdeference for the length of
Leo's reign.
This is what they nice.
The thing is, like I know mostof like the online sets that we
deal with don't go.
So, in other words, set inkyou're talking about, yeah.
SETA ink, and it's reallythere's like a handful of them
(30:51):
online, they don't go to mass,like, and I'm not like I've I've
left the sacraments underFrancis because I was what do
you mean they don't go to massbecause they have nowhere to go,
right?
So they're like, Well, if therewas a valid mass, I would go,
but there's no valid mass, sothey don't go.
I know what happened to my lifewhen I left the and that was
leaving the Novus Ordo.
SPEAKER_06 (31:12):
So well, there was one famous said, I don't know if
you've heard of him, JerryMetatics, I think is how uh
forgive me if I mispronounce hisname.
He was a Protestant minister, asI recall, converted to
Catholicism, got intotraditionalism, but then went
way off the rails into set ofcontas, eventually became a home
aloner.
Like he didn't think anywhere,he couldn't go anywhere.
Nowhere was valid, nowhere waslegitimate.
(31:34):
So he would just read from themissile at home.
That's my under that's myunderstanding.
That's so sad.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
Yeah, I don't I I I don't I I just know what
happened to me in my life, so Ican only go by experience.
I don't know.
I mean, maybe that maybe it'sanecdotal, but it's it's my
experience when I left thesacraments.
What happened, and I'm not doingthat again.
SPEAKER_06 (31:57):
And not even the SS, like other a lot of people seem
to be under the impression thatum the SSPX holds that the new
rights of ordination areinvalid.
That is absolutely false.
The SSPX, you can search ononline Google SSPX New Rite
Ordination Consecration.
They hold that both the newright of priestly ordination and
(32:18):
episcopal consecration are bothvalid.
So there, these people are goingeven way beyond what Archbishop
Lefebvre and the society goes.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Yeah, it's uh um so uh let's see if there's anything
else worth the trap of indultfor quiet.
The bait is obvious.
Speak deferentially, keep a lowprofile, and a new indult will
appear, perhaps devolved tobishops, perhaps dressed in
unity, but the unwritten priceis silence about the revolution.
I don't think we need to besilent about the revolution.
(32:50):
I think we still should betalking about the catastrophic
changes since the council.
I think that we shouldn't becircular firing, calling this
one trad ink, calling themcowards for not speaking the
truth.
I think it's just a differenceof how we go about this.
I don't think anybody is sayingignore the revolution.
Um uh even without a formaloath, the leash will be enforced
(33:15):
by fear.
The moment a priest preachesagainst fiducias, fiducia,
amora, synodality, ecumenism,etc., permissions can be
revoked.
As Leo said, such things arepolarizing and the use and use
the liturgy as a political tool.
In doing so, Leo has reduced thetraditional Catholic faith and
its defense to a mere foreignideology.
Okay, so look, the other thingis under traditionis, there were
(33:39):
tons of bishops who just choseto ignore traditionus, they just
chose to ignore it, and thenRome interfered and like forced
them to enact it, right?
Now if you get if you getreleases on Traditionis, or if
it gets, I mean, I don't thinkit will, but if it totally gets
(34:00):
you know scrapped and everybodygets their mass back, mass back,
and then the bishops allow it,like then I don't think the
podcast arena is such a big dealbecause most of these parishes
are stable on the ground, andmost bishops didn't want to
cause any trouble with theseparishes, like for the for the
most part, they didn't.
They were kind of put in aposition, and then the the
(34:20):
problem is Leo is putting peopleinto like as bishops in these
dioceses that are now like whatwhich which was it Garcia on his
way out of California, just justtossed four TLMs, I think.
Um in Monterey.
In Monterey, yeah, like on hisway out, he's like four days
(34:43):
from going into Austin, and onhis way out, he's like, Yep,
we're gonna squash your TLMbefore I go.
Like these these men are beingelevated to positions within the
within the episcopate.
So I don't I don't know.
I'm like I don't know.
I don't know what I'm not I'mnot trying to be some some uh
like trad icon that tellseverybody what to do.
SPEAKER_06 (35:05):
I'm just kind of surveying the Catholic, you have
publicly said you want to ruleTradistan.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
You did I knew I'm gonna rule Tradistan one day.
SPEAKER_02 (35:22):
I will rule Tradistan.
Oh, that is funny.
Oh, don't call me out on my uhthat's why he wants to keep it
together.
SPEAKER_03 (35:32):
Keep it together and it breaks apart.
SPEAKER_06 (35:33):
He's got little yeah, you're not gonna have a
kingdom to rule pretty soon.
SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
Oh man, we gotta keep it together, guys.
Come on, I don't want to be kingof the ashes.
SPEAKER_03 (35:43):
I don't want to roll rule over a dust heap.
Come on, um, you'd be like uhRomulus Augustus and be just the
last emperor of the uh the RomanEmpire, basically.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_02 (35:59):
I don't know, I don't know what the answer is,
but all right, the plea isalways framed as compassion,
stay quiet for the sake ofparents and children, but at
best it offers an illusory ofsafe, an illusion of safety, a
state room on the Titanicfloating for now while the ship
still sinks.
But the ship here's my allright, here's the thing you can
take it off screen.
Like, this ship is sinking, likeI don't know what to tell you
(36:19):
guys, and nothing we do is goingto change that.
Like, I am at a point where Ithink things are so apocalyptic.
I think we are at the end of thestory.
I don't, I know you guys hatewhen I blackpill, Rob hates when
I blackpill.
I don't see how we're not at theend of the story, and I do think
something is going to happen.
I see Israel having you know theJewish people being called back
(36:42):
to Israel and having theirtentacles throughout the world
the way they are, being atransnational nation the way
they are.
I don't see how this all isn'tleading to the end of the story.
I know what the story ofChristianity is, I understand
the enmity between the olderbrother and the younger brother,
I understand the way storieswork, and we are coming to the
end of the story.
(37:02):
So I I don't know.
I don't I don't think anythingwe do is going to change that.
There's no amount of complainingon Substack that is going to
change the position that ishappening in the church.
I don't, I just isn't.
So, yes, I do think we have tofigure out a way to just find an
(37:24):
enclave to be Catholic and livea Catholic life and raise our
children Catholic in themeantime while we're waiting for
something.
SPEAKER_03 (37:31):
All I ask is if the rapture happens, that it you get
taken.
SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
Oh yeah, you'll be left behind, my friend.
In peace and quiet, all the meanthings you say about people on
this site.
SPEAKER_06 (37:43):
Well, I think what we're going to see in one form
or another, we're going to seethe fulfillment of the third
secret of Fatima.
We haven't seen that yet.
There's going to be the reign ofthere's going to be the triumph
of the Immaculate Heart of Marybefore the second coming of
Christ.
I think that's very wellestablished.
And 2029 is a big year becausethat's seems to be the
(38:04):
hundred-year deadline for doingthe actual consecration of
Russia, which has yet to be donecorrectly.
Um and our Lord seemed toindicate in a in a locution to
Sister Lucia in 1931, he made acomparison between you know his
instructions to St.
Margaret Mary Alcock regardingthe consecration of France,
(38:25):
which was in 1689, and almost tothe day, a hundred years later,
it hadn't been done right, andthe ball started rolling towards
the French, you know, thebeginnings of the French
Revolution.
So he said to Sister Lucia, youknow, if if my min tell my
minister, I'm paraphrasing alittle bit, if my ministers, if
they follow the example of theking of France, they will follow
(38:47):
him into misfortune, you know.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
So yeah, and almost a hundred years to the day it
happened back then, right?
SPEAKER_06 (38:54):
Right, when when when the king finally does
consecrate, and it was like toolate, and it's going to be a
similar situation in in in oursomebody says in the chat, uh
Gaspers doesn't think Francis'consecration was legit, even
though Bishop Schneider does.
Clearly, it wasn't.
And I do, I I think BishopSchneider is probably a living
saint.
He probably will be, you know,one day possibly canonized.
(39:18):
I think he's a very holy man.
I do respectfully disagree withhim on that because we haven't
seen the promised fruit of theconsecration.
Our lady made it very clear.
She says, In the end, myimmaculate heart will triumph.
The Holy Father will consecrateRussia to me, and it shall be
converted, and the and a periodof peace will be granted to the
(39:38):
world.
What does conversion mean?
It doesn't mean the fall ofcommunism.
Sister Lucia made that veryclear to a priest named Father
Joaquin Alonso, who was theFatima official Vatova archivist
for many years, had many privateconversations with her.
(40:05):
It doesn't even mean a return tothe practice of Russian
Orthodoxy, which is schismatic.
It means a return of Russia tothe Catholic faith.
It doesn't mean they have tobecome Roman Catholic.
They'll probably have some sortof a Russian, there's already
actually a Russian CatholicChurch over there, an Eastern
Rite Church, but they do have tobe in communion with Rome.
(40:25):
That is what the conversion ofRussia means.
SPEAKER_02 (40:28):
But doesn't that's a little too spicy?
SPEAKER_01 (40:33):
What?
No, come on, what the Catholicbishops have to become Catholic
before Russia becomes Catholic.
SPEAKER_06 (40:41):
Well, that's a fair point.
That's a fair point.
But I personally I think thatthat the con the actual real
consecration is going to unopenthe floodgates of grace for that
to happen.
SPEAKER_02 (40:52):
Yeah.
See, yeah, I I'm just look, Iknow the story of Christianity,
and I know we are building up tosomething so apocalyptic right
now.
Like the council itself was anapocalyptic moment.
Paul the sixth laying down hispapal tiara is so symbolic of
the church laying down herauthority.
(41:15):
Doesn't mean that hersovereignty passes to another
people, but she lays down herauthority.
The Pope is the catacomb,essentially.
He's the last he's the pontifexmaximus.
Like he is the Roman Emperorlaying down his crown and his
authority.
And there's something to thathappening that is related to the
(41:38):
apocalypse where a star fallsfrom heaven and the key, the key
to the bottomless pit is opened.
Like who has the key?
It's the Pope.
So the key to the bottomless pitis open and the earth is flooded
with demons, and that timeperiod is what we're living in
right now.
SPEAKER_03 (41:52):
I I can't do you know who are gonna be the most
insufferable converts, though.
It's gonna be all the Rokourpeople when the when the
conversion happens telling usabout our faith.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
The uh there's going to be look, I mean, I Trump ran
on, and and that's the otherthing.
I see a lot of these guys arelike so pro-MAGA, and I'm just
like, do you guys really not seeuh what is going on with
politics right now?
There is no Republican andDemocrat.
(42:24):
It's not, it's all one entity.
Everything we're watching rightnow, you're seeing Republicans
come out and say the same thingleftists did about censorship,
about um like all of this stuff.
It's still the deep staterunning everything.
Trump has not gutted the deepstate, none of it.
It's all the same apparatusworking the same way.
(42:46):
It just has a different personin.
You have Trump in, and that'sgetting MAGA to go along with a
lot of this stuff.
Like, I voted for Trump.
I wanted Trump to be the guythey think he is, he's just not.
Like he just it it the peoplehave such a a false hope in
political means it's nothappening, like like we're not
(43:10):
getting out of this throughpolitics.
This whole thing is leading upto something, and you're going
to see the world at war soon.
Like, I don't care.
You're seeing the Russia warescalate, you're just is the
country is falling apart.
You look at like we're alwaystalking about a two-state
solution in Israel.
And if you really think aboutwhy they're even having that
(43:31):
conversation, is because ifthere was a one-state solution
in Israel, that would meanIsrael would have to make the
Gaza Strip all citizens and theywould have equal voting rights,
and they would vote the Israel,the Jews out of Israel.
And that's what they did in ourcountry.
They opened the floodgates tolet the Mohammedans in so that
the Mohammedans would then electtheir own people, and that's
what you see happening inMinnesota, right?
(43:53):
You see Minnesota, you're seeingthem elect their own mayors.
That's what's happeningthroughout the world.
They've managed to convinceformer Christendom to open the
gates of their country to theMohammedans, and they're all
coming in, and you're going toyou're going to see things pop
off soon.
I'm I don't know, man.
SPEAKER_06 (44:14):
I'm seeing another reason why I think we need
Russia to convert and become anally of the Catholic Church is
to, and that's also like St.
John Bosco talks about that inone of his visions.
I remember Father NicholasGruner mentioning that in one of
his conference talks many yearsago about salvation coming uh
from the north, uh evil comingup from the like the Mohammedans
(44:36):
coming up into Europe from thesouth, and Russia after the
conversion of Russia, them beingthere in Europe to defeat the
Mohammedans, many of whom willactually embrace the Catholic
faith.
SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Yeah, like like salvation will come from the
East again.
SPEAKER_06 (44:51):
Exactly.
Yeah, that's the and that's thephrase that uh Father Malachi
Martin also used in some of hisinterviews toward the end of his
life.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Look, the the whole the wholeidea of of um allowing migrants
into our country was never aboutvotes.
I mean, it is about votes, butit's more about making it so
that we are no longer a people,right?
It's making it that we havenothing in common with one
another.
So when World War II happened,you had an American culture, and
(45:20):
the Americans went because theythey but you did.
There was no culture, there wasenough patriotism where people
wanted to fight for theircountry.
Like if our country went to warright now, would you want to
fight for your country?
SPEAKER_06 (45:33):
We would be so screwed if we were right, but
but that's all that's all I'msaying.
SPEAKER_03 (45:37):
So, yeah, there's nothing that unites us as a
people where you fight forAmericans wanted to fight World
War II.
Did they fight the right fight?
SPEAKER_06 (45:47):
No, maybe not, but they were still united enough as
a people in towards evil in asense, like as far as the whole
as far as the holy land isconcerned, maybe we should just
go back to the kingdom ofJerusalem.
SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
All in favor of that, say uh yeah, but that but
but that's the thing, it was aChristian land, like all of the
the whole Middle East was aChristian land at one point, and
then Islam came in and wiped itout.
And when you allow Islam to comeinto Europe and into America and
into Canada and all thesedifferent places, it's only a
(46:23):
matter of time before they justdo the same thing, right?
Um, this is why you can't justsay I'll stay at home and teach
my family and not worry aboutthe church.
Civilization is crumblingbecause the church is not
defending worry about thechurch.
No, but the thing is, I don't Ijust don't think anything we're
doing is going to change theseevents.
That's all I'm saying.
SPEAKER_06 (46:43):
Like right, it's not we need a Catholic version of
Charlie Kirk doing what he wasdoing for the social kingship of
Jesus Christ.
That's what we need in thechurch right now, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
That would help.
I mean, it would help, but it'sstill not like.
Do you see how silent ourhierarchy was on the Charlie
Kirk thing?
SPEAKER_06 (47:03):
Yeah, so I don't think they've said anything,
other than I mean, BishopStrickland has has said some
good things.
I don't remember who all elsehas said things, but very few.
Uh Archbishop Vigano'sArchbishop Vigano posted about
it, so so kudos to him for that.
Uh, I can't remember if I'veseen any other bishops posting
(47:23):
about it.
Oh, Cardinal Mueller said somenice things in his interview
with Diane Montagna.
So there have been a few, butnot.
I mean, the USCCB, I don't thinkthey've they certainly haven't
rolled out the red carpet likefor George Floyd or anything
like that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:38):
It's but that's what I mean.
Like it's inside look, there'sno earthly solution to how bad
things are.
It is so bad.
There have been so many wickedmen raised to the to the ranks
of of the episcopate at thispoint that like it's going to
take an act of God.
SPEAKER_03 (47:57):
Oh, it depends what you mean by earthly solution.
I I think if if if we had greatsaints rise up, you know, a a a
modern Saint Dominic, right?
To to to preach a newAlbigenzian crusade against the
the issues we have, um, youknow, a new um Bernardo Claveau
(48:20):
to to preach a crusade againstthe Mohammedans, things like
that.
If you had great saints rise uplike that, um and maybe they're
out there.
I'm I'm sure maybe they probablyare.
But I mean here's the otherthing I think that's or that
could be a solution, whether ornot you call that an act of God
or earthly, you know, throughman.
SPEAKER_02 (48:37):
Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_06 (48:41):
I think the other thing we have to keep in mind
regardless, you know, sanctity,we all need to be pursuing
sanctity in our own daily lives.
I know Father Ripperger talksoften about the fact that I
forget exactly how he puts it,but um, you know, the the power,
the spiritual power of thechurch in a certain sense is
dependent on the the holiness ofthe members of the church and
(49:04):
the the virtue and the meritsthat we have, you know, because
we're cooperating with God'sgrace and living a holy life.
That's one reason why it takesso much longer for pre for
exorcists to complete a majorexorcism.
You know, decades ago it maybewould take a few days, now it
takes months to years toliberate someone, and it's
(49:26):
because the church is spiritual,the human element of the church
is very spiritually weak rightnow because so many of her
members are either dead orlukewarm, you know, we're not
living our faith fervently, andthat has real consequences.
SPEAKER_02 (49:42):
Yeah, and I also think that like the the allure
of that the church had in theearly church, especially like
you had all these miracleshappening, the church was like
at its brightest in the earlycenturies, and then it goes
through a period where you'dalways have saints performing
(50:02):
miracles and having massconversions and stuff.
You're constantly hearing thisdebate about is the church
growing, is it shrinking?
It's like it's shrinking, like Iand especially in in the west,
it's shrinking, like it might begrowing in certain regions and
other places, but in the west,Christianity is on the decline,
uh, completely on the decline.
You might have pockets ofgrowth, and there might be some
(50:27):
fervor in those pockets, butoverall, the church is in the in
the decline, it doesn't havethese great miracles to show
anymore, it doesn't look likethe church of the like it
doesn't look like it.
It doesn't, it's it looks likeChrist after he was scourged.
That's just what I see rightnow.
So I don't know.
Look, I I don't know how God isgoing to fix this, but I do
(50:50):
think God is going to fix this,and I don't know.
And Andrew, no, that's not true.
It's not like you'd reject thegreat saints for being mouthy
and rejecting apostate bishops.
If I see great saints doingthis, we'll we'll go from there.
It's not I'm I'm watching peoplelike my peers doing this, and
I'm talking to my peers.
If one of them's a great saint,I I defer, I'll follow your
(51:11):
lead.
But I think all of us are tryingto figure this thing out.
SPEAKER_06 (51:14):
Well, the other thing that they need to keep in
mind is that saints defer to theauthority of the church, they
don't make themselves theprivate judge of who's an
apostate and who's not, theydefer to the judgment of the
authorities in the church.
SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
Yeah, look, this is this is a complicated issue.
I don't know.
I you know, I want to at leastaddress the article, um, and uh
and address these guys.
Like, I I I I I like all theseguys.
I think that we're all on thesame team.
Like, I don't, you know, I thinkit's I think it's it's not like
any of us don't believe theCatholic faith.
(51:49):
We all see there's a major issuethat happened with the council.
That is the source of 90% of theproblems.
We're seeing it play out, it'splayed out over decades.
The the conversation is now whatis the approach?
What do we do?
Now, you guys, I'm not sayingdon't continue to point out the
errors of Leo.
I'm saying might want to goabout a different strategy than
(52:13):
than taking shots at your fellowCatholics who believe the same
thing as you, or even have adisagreement.
Like there's ways to have thisconversation where it's not
where it's where it's not tryingto like ruin somebody else's
reputation or credibilitybecause they're they're doing
something out of cowardice orsomething like that.
I just don't think that's whatit is.
I don't think anybody got somememo.
(52:34):
It's not like trad ink exists,it's not like trading got a
memo, you guys are gonna do thisnow, and everybody's following
marching orders.
I think everybody's kind of justtrying to readjust under the new
papacy, see what the strategyshould be to go from there.
I I don't think there's somesomebody leading this thing.
That's all I that's that's allI'm thinking.
SPEAKER_06 (52:54):
Well, if people if people want to know where I
stand on Leo, they can listen tomy uh my discussion I had with
Ryan Grant on Monday of thisweek.
We went for uh over three hourson my channel, Very Tati's Vox,
dissecting in great detail hisrecent interview with Crux.
And I have we had plenty ofcriticisms, we're certainly not
(53:16):
holding back, but we also don'tneed to uh go to the other
extreme and say, well, you know,Leo's not the Pope because I
personally think he's guilty ofheresy, like that's just not how
it works.
SPEAKER_02 (53:29):
Well, trad inc exists in as much as there are
people who made their living bybeing trad and presenting the
trad position.
That is like if you're gonna saywho's trad inc, if somebody is
making their livelihood onpresenting themselves as a trad,
that is what you could say istrad ink, I guess, right?
Like that's that they're makinga living.
SPEAKER_03 (53:51):
I'm just Stephen Cox is trad inc.
Yes, yeah, that's the thing.
SPEAKER_06 (53:56):
Like, where do you draw the line?
I was managing editor ofCatholic Family News for over
seven years.
Does that mean I'm trad inc?
Because I mean, that's basicallysaying that journalism is not a
legitimate profession.
That's what you're saying.
I'm not gonna go there, Matt.
SPEAKER_02 (54:13):
It's absolutely a legitimate profession.
I know people need to read.
SPEAKER_06 (54:16):
Ken Kennedy Hall wrote an outstanding article a
couple years ago for the uh NewOxford Review, where he
distinguished between aprofessional Catholic, which is
the pejorative, versus aCatholic professional.
I I would highly recommendpeople find that article and
read it.
I forget the title of it.
SPEAKER_02 (54:35):
Trad ink and someone who does three hour podcasts,
shouldn't someone who does threehour podcasts with Ryan Grant.
That's what you were supposed tosay.
You were supposed to accuse Mattof being trading.
SPEAKER_06 (54:45):
I don't even monetize my channel, people.
It's all free.
I don't even have any paidsupporters.
SPEAKER_02 (54:51):
You're seriously that you should.
SPEAKER_03 (54:54):
If you're gonna be called trad ink, man, you might
as well make money.
SPEAKER_02 (54:57):
You may as well cash in on it, bro.
Come on.
Um, all right, so we're gonna goover to locals and we're gonna
we're gonna do the Protestantcanonization of Charlie Kirk
because I have a lot of thoughtson that.
Um, I didn't think this would goan hour, I didn't know where it
was gonna go tonight.
But I yeah, look, um I I hope tohave conversations with these
guys.
Like, I really do.
I I I would like to haveconversations with them.
(55:19):
I I'm I'm probably gonna doanother one with Mario and
Kevin.
Um I I Joshua Charles said hewas open to discussing the
passion of the church with theset of acantists, so that's a
possibility too.
Like, I'm not I I I'm I don'tknow.
I'm I'm open to allconversations, man.
Like, I and I'm gonna get a lotof things wrong.
(55:40):
Like that last show we did, Isaid a bunch of things when I
was tired, and then I went backand I and I was thinking about
it.
I'm like, yeah, there's a littlesoft pedal in that because I was
probably trying to be toocordial or something.
Like, I I am I'm too amiable.
I like to I I want like I fallinto that mode of not wanting to
(56:00):
to argue with people, and it Idon't it's it's hard for me.
I'm an Italian and I likeeverybody to get along and
stuff, so you know it's one ofmy faults.
That's an Italian thing, yeah.
Yeah, we just want everybody toget along, be happy, and I'm not
yeah, you know, unless somebodylike directly confronts you, and
then it's just you'll go fortheir throat, right?
So this morning I woke up and Isaw that Chris wrote that
(56:21):
article, and I was like, I'mgonna I'm gonna go for his
throat.
And I was Chris, I almost lostit if you're watching.
Like, and then I calmed down abit.
I was like, All right, I'llsettle down a bit.
Uh um, it's uh it's it's notjust using your brain, it is
that, yeah, absolutely.
It's actually using yourintellect, it's using your it's
(56:42):
using your intellect, but it'salso looking at um looking at
the promises of Christ as well.
SPEAKER_03 (56:49):
And like a lot of actors use their brain too, so
you can't just say that.
SPEAKER_02 (56:56):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, everybody claims they'reusing their intellect, right?
There's gotta be there's gottabe something to it.
So um, all right, we're gonnahead over to locals.
Um, we'll see where thisconversation goes.
Uh, we'll probably give it arest for next week.
It was, you know, just on mymind this week.
Uh, I hope everybody uh doesfigure out a good a good game
(57:18):
plan and that everybody couldcome to the table and have a
conversation.
That's that's my position on it.
How about you, Matt?
You got any got any finalthoughts before we go?
SPEAKER_06 (57:28):
Oh, I'm not sure.
I think I've said what I wantedto say about it.
I mean, um I just I think it'sin poor taste to use the
pejorative constantly.
I mean, and it's almost gettingobsessive at this point.
I think that's what reallystrikes me as odd.
Like, is that I I have to agreewith you.
Like, if I were building aplatform, I wouldn't want it to
(57:50):
be about obsessing about myenemies or those who I perceive
to be my enemy.
SPEAKER_02 (57:55):
Like, you gotta be pursuing something good, it
can't just be attacking otherpeople, and and I think it's
also about like buildingrelationships is very important.
It just is well.
Should we do super chats beforewe go, Rob?
We we we definitely should readsuper chats before we go, sure.
Um okay.
Uh, I think two two biggestissues as one interfaith church
(58:18):
replacing missionary churchnecessary for salvation, and two
changes to the mass.
Yeah, like uh ecumenism is byfar the most baffling thing
since the council.
Um, the idea that Muslims andJews worship the same God as us,
I am completely baffled by I Ithe way I see it is Jesus goes
(58:38):
and tells the Pharisees theyworship the devil.
I don't know how we make senseof that.
Um Bobby says, uh, the point ofthe council was to meet the
world where it is.
The post-conciliar popes, inthat spirit of the council, have
been afraid to offend the world.
I agree wholeheartedly withthat.
Um, and then papal monarchistenjoyer.
(58:58):
The issue that I had with thatarticle when I read through it
is that by proxy, it leavesyoung trads like me in a
difficult spot of feeling liketraitors to the cause that we
were never a part of.
SPEAKER_06 (59:09):
The art meaning Chris Jackson's article.
Chris Jackson's article, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (59:12):
I assume so.
Yeah, like the yeah, yeah, likeI can I kind of get that, right?
Like you read through it, andit's like any anybody that takes
that position, it's like you'rebetraying some movement or
something.
I I don't I don't know.
I just think it's a disagreementon on approach.
(59:34):
That's what I think of it.
SPEAKER_06 (59:35):
And like I think a more constructive way to
approach the whole issue wouldbe to be exhorting if you if you
think Michael Matt doesn't havethe right strategy, if you think
Taylor Marshall doesn't have theright strategy, share
respectfully share yourdisagreement and exhort them to
maybe reconsider.
Don't start trashing them astrad ink.
(59:56):
That's just gonna that's justgonna turn them off to you and
It's not gonna do anything, it'snot gonna help.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:02):
Yeah, they're not like me, they're not gonna get
down in the mud and talk to youguys.
SPEAKER_05 (01:00:06):
Like, like I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
I like I like I like getting in the mud and talking
to everybody.
Like, I don't those guys aren'tgonna they don't even talk to me
usually.
Michael Matt, Michael Mattdoesn't talk to me.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:18):
Oh, I was gonna say the person I feel most sorry for
right now is Michael Matt.
That's because he's gonna makeone of two mistakes on Sunday
when you're at mass with him.
He's either going to acknowledgeyou and then have to listen to
you, or he's gonna ignore youand then have a video made about
him.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:38):
He's gotta know who we are.
He has to know who we are.
It's it's virtually impossiblefor Michael Matt to not know who
we are.
I've never had a conversationwith the guy, but come on.
If he pretends he doesn't knowme, you're right.
There's gonna be a videoafterwards.
I know I brought it.
Yes, you guys are the rip rap.
(01:01:00):
Yeah, if I go and I and I meetMichael Matt or I see him at
Mass and he pretends he doesn'tknow me, there's gonna be an
episode after that.
I'm joining the Mad Trads.
I was gonna say I'm writing anarticle for Chris Jackson.
Trad Inc is a problem.
Yes, absolutely.
I will absolutely I'm gonnawrite an article for Chris
Jackson Substack if thathappens.
(01:01:21):
I'll tell you right now.
He doesn't even have a silverYouTube play button and wants
Michael Matt to acknowledge him.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:29):
Oh you think Brad would have us on if we had a
silver play button?
SPEAKER_02 (01:01:33):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I can't figure Matt out.
I like Matt.
I actually talked to him theother day.
We'll uh we'll see how thatgoes.
We're gonna we're gonna try anduh keep keep keep keep all
channels open for dialogue.
We'll see how that goes.
I know it'll happen.
We'll get Kevin James on, andthen everybody will want to talk
to us.
That's how it's gonna go.
(01:01:54):
Kevin James is Catholic.
I just heard that.
It's so crazy.
Somebody just mentioned KevinJames is Catholic, and I can't I
can't get over it.
It's wild.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:03):
Next, you're gonna tell me like Rob Schneider's
Catholic, too, or something.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:06):
Rob Schneider's Catholic?
Um, no, but Father Rippiger isjoining us on Tuesday, right?
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:13):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:14):
You're the one that made it so the 29th, right?
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:18):
Yes, father Ripper on the Monday's the 29th,
Monday's the 20th or the 30th.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:22):
Yeah, yeah.
The next show we're on, FatherRippiger will be on with us.
Nice.
Let's talk about Trading.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:29):
No matter how many times you pull that joke,
someone falls for it.
Every time.
SPEAKER_06 (01:02:35):
I'm happy to say I'm gonna be having Father on my
channel as well pretty soon.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:39):
Father Ripper is the Catholic.
SPEAKER_06 (01:02:44):
When do you have Father coming on?
Uh October 13th, Fatimaanniversary.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:50):
I'm glad we got him first.
We're gonna get the juicy soundbites out of them.
We'll leave you with nothing.
Um all right, guys.
We're heading over to locals.
If you guys aren't members, comeover there.
That's where we have all the funand we uh we get pretty fun so
far.
It's always fun on our show.
We always have a good time.
But all right, we'll see youguys on the other side.
Take us out, Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:28):
Hello everyone.
Uh, this is Ryan here, your hostat Preconciliar Radio, uh, doing
my first broadcast uh today on atopic that unfortunately um I'm
deeply, deeply saddened.
(01:03:48):
And I'm deeply saddened for uhmy day job uh is that of an
attorney, and I am suing someonefor monetary gain.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:59):
Thanks a lot, Anthony.
Oh man.
I gotta say the taffy intro this week wasn't the
greatest, and I didn't make himredo it.
And we'll play it on locals.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
He did he did tell us he was gonna be too busy
today to actually so like Idon't know, it was all right.
SPEAKER_06 (00:45):
It just is that your hand, Anthony, pulling out the
sword.
SPEAKER_02 (00:52):
Um I woke up this morning to Matt DMing me.
Uh well, so we had Matt bookedalready, right?
Like, so like me and Matt hadhave been speaking for weeks
about getting him on, and Itexted him last night and I was
like, I have no idea what we'retalking about tomorrow.
I was like, I'll I'll findsomething during the day and
I'll text you the topic.
SPEAKER_03 (01:12):
That was the last text you had sent me, too.
You're like, I don't even knowwhat we're gonna talk about
tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
And then I went to bed, and then I woke up this
morning to uh like a group chatbetween me, Rob, and Matt.
And Matt goes, Oh, look, theywrote an article about me.
Chris Jackson wrote an articleabout you.
So I started off by day like notreading the article, I was just
like, they got the nerve tocome.
Really, boys, you guys thinkthis is gonna go well for you?
(01:38):
Like, that was my initialreaction.
I'm like, You guys think youthink this will go well for you?
Okay, but then I read it andfive minutes ago.
I calmed down a bit.
Well, yeah, but even just the Ilike I calmed down a bit, and I
was like, you know, the um thethe last episode we did, um, we
(01:59):
had Wagner on, and he wasprobably like it was probably a
in bad taste to have thatconversation with Wagner on.
Like Wagner's not a trad.
It wasn't, it was we weresupposed to talk about Lofton
that night, and then Lofton madepeace with Wagner behind the
scenes.
SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah, kind of killed us, kind of killed the topic for
that.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Completely killed the topic, and I I had this
stuff brewing in my mind, and Iwas like, maybe we'll just talk
about that because I had thiswhole thing in my head that I
was just mulling over just bywatching like how Catholic media
has been behaving since Leo gotelected.
By the way, welcome MattGaspers.
It's been a while since we'veseen you.
SPEAKER_06 (02:38):
Thank you guys.
Congrats, by the way, on gettingto 50,000.
Thank you.
Speaking of speaking of MichaelLofton, you're only 50,000 away
from having the the silver whatYouTube plaque.
We need that plaque, guys.
Remember when he made a videoabout that, a rap video?
That was pretty sweet.
My question is, do they do willthey send each of you one or do
(03:00):
you have to share one?
We'll probably have to share.
SPEAKER_03 (03:02):
I think we'll have to we you probably have to buy.
SPEAKER_02 (03:04):
I think you can buy an additional.
Oh, so you could probably buymore than one, yeah.
Um, so all right, so so we hadWag Wagner on, Wagner, Wagner,
whatever you guys want to say.
Wagner, Wagner, Wagner.
Um, and he was probably thewrong person to have on for that
conversation.
Now, where my thought processwas when we had that, and I was
very tired, I'd been sick for aweek, I hadn't slept.
(03:28):
My thought process wasn'tactually about like how to
handle Leo.
My thought process was more holycow, I'm watching outfits that
like exploded during COVID andhad this adversarial
relationship to Francis andtheir their media empires, but
like like life's like news was ajuggernaut during the pandemic,
(03:51):
like they were huge.
That my i i remember speakingwith John Henry Weston, and he
and when it when he first losthis YouTube channel during
COVID, and he had to start a newone.
He was like, I would put up avideo of anything and it would
get 100,000 views.
He goes, Then we had to startthat new channel, and it was
like you could barely get anyviews on it.
And now I'm watching what'shappening, and I just see
(04:14):
there's no appetite for thatkind of media, and that was
where my and I was just thinkingabout like these guys have to
change up their content becauseyou're not going to get views
doing the bash the Pope thing,like there's just no appetite
for it in in the content space.
That was where I was going.
Wasn't thinking so much likeit's in like that's a bad
(04:36):
strategy for Leo, but it kind ofdid go there, and I and I'm
still not a hundred percent surewhich side of that debate I fall
on.
I see both sides of the argumentin okay, you still have to
attack the source of it atVatican II because that clearly
was a revolutionary event, andthen I see the other side of it
(04:59):
where it's like chill out, let'sget our Latin mass, let's
reposition, let's let's you knowcome up with a game plan and a
long-term strategy.
So, Matt, where are you fallingin on this on this conversation?
SPEAKER_06 (05:10):
Well, on Monday of this week, Ryan Grant and I did
like a three plus hour yeah, trywatching that.
It was it was long.
It was way longer than I thoughtit would go.
But I mean, we we dove prettydeep into the crux interview,
and I'm kind of I'm basicallyrunning out of patience, I would
(05:31):
say, with Pope Leo.
I think it's becoming clearer bythe day that he is in a certain
sense a Francis the Second, uhbetter aesthetics, uh more
polite and dignified, perhaps,but not really different
substantially when it comes todoctrine.
And I think those who arepretending otherwise are really
(05:51):
being silly at this point.
I mean, like you don't want oneexample I gave during our show,
and I I greatly respect, I likeDr.
Gavin Ashenden, but it's justgonna bring him up.
Please stop with the with theCatholic Qon.
It's so stupid.
Just stop, just stop.
SPEAKER_01 (06:11):
Gavin's English, so he's like, he's like, you have
to read him in code, and youhave to understand he's speaking
in code to us.
It's like, no, he's not.
No, no, he's not.
The guy stinks.
Not trusting the plan at thispoint.
SPEAKER_06 (06:27):
If you're trusting the plan at this point, you are
you have lost the plot entirely,dude.
SPEAKER_02 (06:32):
It's man, the the point I'm at now.
He here's where I really fall onit.
And I've been trying to thinkabout like what is my position
on this.
Um, and what what do I think ofof Leo and Rob?
I sent a picture of uh oh, itdidn't go through.
(06:56):
I wonder why.
Um, I I I've been mulling overthis in my head, and I just see
uh the church since the councilas the church in its passion.
And when you see Christ after hescourged at the pillar, and
Pilate brings him before thecrowd and he says, Eche homo,
(07:20):
it's like behold the man.
Like you you're looking at themessiah, but it doesn't look
like it, it doesn't look likethe messiah.
SPEAKER_06 (07:27):
You're looking at God, you're looking at God, and
when you how many people believethat he was God at that moment?
SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
At that moment, many, and when I look at when I
look at the church right now,that's what I see.
It's very difficult to say thisis the church.
This is the church, this is thebody of Christ, and it's it's
it's a hard.
I'm trying to figure out what mybest approach is to bring young
(07:57):
people to the church when thechurch is in that state, because
to point out everything wrongwith it, I don't know if that
sends them down the Sede Road,if that sends them to Eastern
Orthodoxy.
I'm trying to figure out how tolike bring people in and help
them gain faith.
SPEAKER_06 (08:15):
One other element that I think is very important
for people to understand aboutthat analogy, and this is
stressed by John Salza andRobert Sisko in the introduction
to their book, True or FalsePope, which I highly recommend.
Who did that?
Who was the ultimate cause ofour Lord?
I forget there are differentkinds of causes, like the
(08:35):
instrumental cause, it was theold testament hierarchy who did
that to him.
SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
Oh, we're doing the Jew thing already.
I thought we were gonna wait forlocals.
We're doing that now, all right.
We can do it now.
SPEAKER_06 (08:47):
Meaning that the the old you know, the the Israel of
the Old Testament, the hierarchyof Israel did that to our Lord,
so it that means that it'spossible for the New Testament
hierarchy to do the same thingto his mystical body.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
Typologically, that's exactly how I see it.
I see it as and and you're goingto have the old testament, the
people of the old testament,mixed in with that, and you're
gonna see there's going to be aJudas element, there's going to
be the I mean, if you think thatthe the high priest and the
Sanhedrin prefigure the Pope andthe Cardinals, you will see
(09:25):
elements of that typology playout in the end.
Um, but it is still the church,and I still do think Leo is a
valid pope.
I think he is I think he is theembodiment uh of uh the council.
Like I don't think Leo, I don'tthink Francis was.
I think Francis was like way outthere, he was a nut.
(09:46):
And I think Leo is more theembodiment of the council, which
is this timid Catholicism,unsure of itself, afraid to
preach the truth boldly.
And it's embodied in Leo thesame way Peter denies Christ.
Not that he ever says he's notthe Messiah, he just denies
knowing him.
(10:07):
And it and there's elements ofseeing that in the in the
hierarchy since the council,where they're almost like
ashamed to, you know, and I'veI've gotten I've gotten heat
from people for saying thisbefore, but uh it's the only way
I can make sense of it, I thinksomething because we all can see
(10:28):
like the Catholicism that wastaught before the council is
very different than theCatholicism that is taught now.
Something revolutionary happenedat that council and in the the
following decades, right?
Like the we're all seeing it,and I think I under under
Francis, I took the positionwhere it was like, all right,
I'm gonna give leeway to peoplewho fall on different sides of
(10:49):
the argument here on where theyend up.
Like, okay, maybe Francis is ananti-pope, maybe Benedict didn't
resign, maybe you know, I Iallowed for people to ponder
that and come to a differentconclusion than myself.
And what I'm seeing under Leo iswhich is kind of funny because
there's a whole group of newguys who are calling calling
some guys trad inc, which it'slike well, they won't they won't
(11:11):
actually name who they meet.
That's kind of the funny thing.
Yeah, guys, man up, come on, saynames, let's go.
We like a little beef.
Like Catholic Esquire.
What level of heresy does Leohave to teach before anyone can
conclude he cannot possibly bethe Pope?
How bad does the heresy have toget?
SPEAKER_03 (11:26):
Well, okay, so I was JP2 Pope then.
SPEAKER_06 (11:29):
My like I ask Bellerman, Catholic Esquire.
Bellerman says warnings arenecessary per Titus chapter
three, verses 10 to 11.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
So so what I'll say is um, so Chris Jackson wrote
this article, right?
I love Chris Jackson's writings,like I really do.
Catholic Esquire.
I watch every one of his videos,like I actually enjoy them all.
I'm still just not settled onwhere I come down on it, but
(12:01):
this just is how I this is Iwant this is where I'm making
sense of it right now.
SPEAKER_06 (12:05):
See Steven is in the chat as well.
Hello, Steven.
Good to see you.
He says, Yes, we have Matt.
So who do you mean?
Say in the chat who do you meanwhen you say they mean Dr.
SPEAKER_02 (12:15):
Marshall, Dr.
Kwasnevsky, Michael Matt are thethree musketeers of Trad Inc.
SPEAKER_06 (12:20):
That's that's their is that does it stop there?
Who else are you guys talkingabout?
SPEAKER_03 (12:25):
I prefer three amigos personally, but um I
okay.
SPEAKER_02 (12:30):
So look, here what I was trying to get at in that
last episode, though, wasn'tthat um you guys shouldn't
continue criticizing.
I I like you guys are the newguys trying to like start a
platform, and and for for guyslike me and Rob and even Matt,
we have day jobs.
This is kind of like a side gig,right?
So for me, it kind of I itdoesn't matter.
(12:52):
It's for me.
Like me and Rob just are havingfun on a podcast talking about
this stuff.
We like to discuss what's goingon in the Catholic world, but
for an outfit like Life Site,they have to make a decision
like where do we move forwardwith our content?
Because what position you takeon this can determine whether
your outfit survives or not.
Um, I I laughed at Stephen Coxwhen he said originally that um
(13:16):
Michael Matt and Marshall maybegot orders from uh Cardinal
Burke.
And then the more I thoughtabout that, I was like, maybe
maybe I mean it's it I don'tknow because I know Michael Matt
has a good relationship withCardinal Burke, like it is
possible, it's not likecompletely out of the realm of
possibility.
I'm sure you don't think it's Ithink it's unlikely, but it's
not out of the realm ofpossibility.
SPEAKER_03 (13:36):
Yeah, I it's not like they got a call on the
backbone television.
SPEAKER_06 (13:40):
I have a sincere question for all in relation to
all the Trad Inc stuff.
If if that's Trad Inc.
seriously, isn't there a saidink also?
Nova Sordo Watch, the WM review.
I mean, they they use thesimilar talking points.
Um Steven seems to be verysympathetic to seducantism,
(14:02):
perhaps even I think all threeseems guys.
SPEAKER_02 (14:05):
I mean, I when I read when I read Chris Jackson,
and look, I here's the thinglike even I don't want to get
certain people who still have umvalid orders in their diocese in
trouble, but like very goodfriends, priests that I know
fall in that category as well.
They don't think Leo is a validpope.
Um I I would I mean fromlistening to Father Isaac, I
(14:27):
would I would imagine he holdsthat position too.
I don't know, he hasn't like Ihe hasn't flat out said it, but
like these are all guys I loveand respect and I listen to and
pay attention to what they'resaying and take their arguments
into account.
I also do listen to what MichaelMatt is saying, and and I'm and
I'm watching Taylor's position,and I'm seeing uh like they're
(14:50):
trying to develop a strategy forthe long term, and uh these guys
are saying like the the indultposition is stupid, but I'm also
looking at I'm watching theolder guys have absolutely no
ability to connect to theyounger generation, like it's
just they're just incapable ofit.
There's some there's somethingmissing there.
(15:11):
So you you guys are gonnacontinue speaking to the Gen X
crowd and and the boomer crowd,but the younger generation isn't
connecting with with that.
So I don't know, I don't know.
I mean, I'm I'm just kind ofhere watching all this go down,
and um I'm not I'm not tryingI'm not trying to like I'm not
trying to play all sides.
(15:33):
I genuinely have not figured outlike the correct answer to this.
I just know what happened at thecouncils is insane.
Everything that's happened sincethen seems completely bonkers,
but I also know or I alsobelieve that Christ made a
promise that the gates of hellwould not prevail, and I think
that it will look like the gatesof hell prevailed, and then at
(15:54):
the last minute, God's going todo something incredible that
will shock us all.
SPEAKER_06 (16:02):
I think the main difference between myself and
those who are using the the tradink pejorative is that I even if
I disagree, like I don't agreewith everything Michael Matt
says.
He's a friend of mine.
Yeah, I don't even necessarilyagree with everything uh Taylor
Marshall says, another friend ofmine, but I'm not gonna go on
the attack against thempublicly.
(16:23):
That's just I don't that's invery bad taste.
SPEAKER_02 (16:26):
It's in very bad taste, but I do remember like
when you're coming up and you'retrying to make a name for
yourself, you go, you know, youpunch up, right?
And I think that's what thoseguys are doing.
They're punching up, like in ain a way, those guys have
controlled the conversation fora very long time, right?
SPEAKER_06 (16:40):
Like, like and frankly, rightfully so.
Michael Matt has been in thisfight longer than some of these
people have even been alive.
SPEAKER_03 (16:48):
Yeah, he's been doing this since you're dying.
SPEAKER_06 (16:50):
Settled down his his family's been doing it for
generations, so get you know, hedeserves some respect, whether
you agree completely with him ornot.
That that deserves some respect,yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (17:02):
And what'll happen, and this is what I was kind of
getting at last episode, also,is you guys will get some
traction by punching up and calland doing the trading thing, but
you're gonna be you're gonna belike put into a corner and
you're never going to escapethat corner, you're just not.
It's I mean, it's just gonna beyou're gonna pigeonhole yourself
(17:24):
into a very specific situation,and you're gonna find yourself
having very few people who wantto collaborate with you because
of that, and you're going to belike persona non grata for
anybody who might actually enjoyyou, but it has a relationship
with those guys, too.
SPEAKER_03 (17:38):
Because I mean, similar to how relationship with
them, similar to how so-calledTrad Inc.
was was kind of uh put in acorner over the you know, over
the the Francis pontificate.
Like it literally took for aPope to die for Dr.
K to get on Matt Fred, yeah.
You know, it like in they'rehaving a the that group or
(17:59):
whatever you want to call it ishaving a hard time breaking out
of the I don't know what youwant to call it, the the not
Pope Splainer, the Popecomplainer, I guess.
I think you don't need like likeso yeah, you gotta yeah, not I
don't want to say you gotta becareful doing that because you
should stick to whateverprinciples you know you do hold,
(18:20):
but uh that well you gotta beaware of the consequences.
SPEAKER_02 (18:23):
That's that's that's what I'm that's what I'm getting
at, right?
So and and I do think those guysare paying attention to these to
the to the new guys because I Isee they're they're reacting
without saying their names, alsoright now.
Now the I don't mind saying youguys' names because I nobody you
mind putting them in athumbnail.
(18:46):
Like I don't mind sayingpeople's names because I don't
care.
I actually like I want to seeeverybody succeed at this thing,
and I know how difficult it isto like make a name for you.
Like it was hard getting ourchannel to have any kind of like
noticeability and stuff.
So I don't like I'm always gonnatry and bring up the new guys.
Um, not that you guys areyounger than me or anything,
(19:06):
it's just the guys new in thecontent arena.
Now I know Stephen Cox has beendoing this for 15 years, but
he's now on his own and he's youknow doing a channel on his own.
Catholic Esquire.
I just came across recently,like in the past few months.
Um, and then uh Chris Jackson Icame across uh with the Baron
interview.
That was the first time I readChris Jackson.
It was the band we read hissubstance.
(19:27):
That was a very good, very goodarticle, really well right, like
a really good writer, yeah.
Right?
Like it's just I I'm not tryingto do the ecumenism thing here,
right?
Like I'm just uh I don't know,man.
I I'm I'm trying to figure outlike the way forward under Leo.
I don't know what it is.
SPEAKER_06 (19:47):
Who would have thought Anthony would be the
voice of moderation?
SPEAKER_03 (19:50):
Well said he did ever since he was in high
school, starting fights so hecan moderate him.
SPEAKER_02 (19:55):
I'm I'm sure Chris has I'm sure Chris has been
around for a long time, but hehasn't come across my radar,
right?
So that was the first time Chriscame across my radar.
SPEAKER_06 (20:03):
Let me just be clear.
I still consider Stephen Cox afriend.
I still consider Chris Jackson afriend.
They're both very good writers,jerk, good journalists.
Um, so it's not personal, I justdon't agree with the the crusade
against trading.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, Chris Jackson used towrite for the remnant, and I'm
sure the remnant took all hisstuff down since he's been on
the Trad Inc.
Crusade, I would I wouldimagine.
SPEAKER_06 (20:26):
I mean, I don't know, but that actually came up
recently that um a Nova Sordowatch Mario Dirksen posted about
that, and um I checked, tried tofind Chris's old articles.
They do appear to have beenscrubbed.
Um yeah, it is what it is.
I mean, I don't know, and Idon't necessarily agree with
that decision either, but it iswhat it is.
(20:48):
But it's a it's I mean it's apretty obvious consequence to
the I would assume I wouldassume that there is a very
direct cause and effectrelationship between the Trading
Crusade and his articles nolonger being accessible, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
Yeah, the the thing is I do I do like I I do want to
have this conversation about thelike the proper way forward in
this because something needs tothere something needs to be
done.
There needs to be some kind of aplan for opposing some of this
(21:25):
crazy stuff we're seeing in thechurch.
I mean, you have it's kind ofodd that you finally actually
had six bishops come out andcondemn Supic for what he's
doing with this this award onseven now, seven, seven bishops
now come at coming out againstSupic, but I don't think that
would have happened under Franceon under Francis.
I'm not saying that means Leo iswhatever, it's just I I just
(21:45):
think there's a differenttemperature in the room under
Leo, and he does seem like hekind of wants to unify things in
some way, whatever that means.
But I also know, like I I wasmaking fun of the Charlie Kirk
memorial, and then people werelike, Yeah, but dude, look at
Nova's look at the Nova Sordo,and it's like the yeah, like the
Nova Sordo is just as silly.
SPEAKER_06 (22:07):
Yeah, I mean, it's basically that what they did
there was more or less I've seenit many times a Steubenville
conference or any other kind ofretreat, like diocesan style
retreat.
It's pretty much what happens.
Just substitute um the artiststhat were there.
I forget some.
I mean, and I enjoy some of thatmusic.
I don't think it's bad music.
(22:28):
I mean, I listen to it when I'mdriving for work and stuff
sometimes.
Um, I don't obviously it's notappropriate for well, it kind of
takes me back to my my heydayand my rock nostalgia.
Yeah, nostalgic.
Um, what was I gonna say?
It's obviously not appropriatefor Holy Mass or the liturgy.
That doesn't mean that it's evileither, though.
(22:49):
I mean, and those people, ifthat's all they know and they
are truly sincerely worshipingGod.
I mean, several of them, severalof the artists have come out and
said, Man, that was a reallypowerful experience, and who
knows if it was just anemotional high.
I don't know, but hopefully somepeople are actually going to
convert as a result of this.
SPEAKER_02 (23:09):
Convert to what, though, is I think their
position, right?
Convert to what?
Like you you convert, and likethere are there are versions of
Catholicism that are presentedto people that they convert to
that aren't truly Catholic,right?
Like some of it's such sillinessthat you just you're like, man,
this is this is this is soforeign and alien to what was
(23:33):
taught to the generations beforethat you have to say, like, is
this Catholic at this point?
You know, so why don't we gothrough Chris's article, Rob?
You want to bring it up?
SPEAKER_03 (23:46):
Yeah, let me find it here.
SPEAKER_02 (23:47):
It's in the it's in the thread between Matt and and
uh the between the three of us.
Um, and yeah, I did I did see uhhow do you pronounce his name?
Vadi Basham?
Basham.
SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Who is that?
SPEAKER_02 (23:58):
Vadi Bocam, I don't know.
He's a Protestant minister thateverybody's saying went straight
to heaven.
Um, it after we discussed thisarticle, I do want to talk about
the Protestant canonization ofCharlie Kirk, like because some
of the stuff that they're doingis so Catholic and they're and
it's insane.
SPEAKER_06 (24:16):
Yeah, I saw your post about that.
They want to make some kind ofcommemorative coin of him or
something, and you were likerazzing them about their
idolatry or something.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
It's but it's like they're so blind to what they're
doing that they man, we'll do itafter because I that deserves
its own segment.
SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
Like I mean, they're doing they're just doing what
American Protestants have alwaysdone.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
Yes, get rid of the heroes of the Catholic faith and
replace them with uh secularheroes, like that's what they've
always done.
But like kid like do the sameexact thing, but say it's not
it's different when they do it,basically.
But um, we will get to superchats also, but uh all right,
you got the article?
Uh so from Chris Jackson, in arecent Avoiding Babylon episode
(25:01):
entitled Will Pope Leo Kill theTrad movement, the hosts argued
that traditional Catholicsshould move on from constant
criticism of Leo.
Their counsel was clear, turndown the outrage machine of the
Francis years, lower your voice,receive the supposed olive
branch, and trust that quietdeference might secure broader
access to the Latin.
SPEAKER_03 (25:18):
I don't think we argued that at all, though.
SPEAKER_02 (25:20):
I I I did well, kind of not.
I mean, my my my broader pointwas more about like the Catholic
media stuff, but I did kind ofsay this.
Um, and uh they even warned thatRome watches Anglo-Catholic
media, implying that too muchagitation could cost families
their sacraments.
And I did say that.
I'm like, I think that's apossibility, yeah.
(25:41):
I I still do think that, so liketoo much agitation from I mean,
not from guys like us, we're toosmall, but if Marshall and and
Michael Matt are continuing thesame thing as they did under
Francis, I do think it would bevery I mean we we've we've seen
more more than enough examplesof vindictive bishops who if
(26:03):
they have a especially if theyhave a big influencer in their
diocese.
SPEAKER_03 (26:07):
Uh you can't tell me the bishop of Charlotte
wouldn't, yeah.
I mean, he's already done it,obviously, but someone like that
is vindictive enough to kill aTLM because of uh a YouTube
video.
You can't tell me that's notnecessarily the case.
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
So it was in effect a manifesto for silence, silence
in exchange for stability.
Silence is a new strategy forsurvival.
No, it wasn't.
Um, but they framed it.
But what they framed as prudenceis in reality a trap.
It recasts vigilance asdisloyalty and asked parents to
buy liturgical crumbs at thecost of doctrinal surrender.
That is not mercy, it's adevil's bargain designed to
(26:43):
guarantee 20 years of muzzledpreaching while the revolution
cements itself as officialCatholicism.
So I would argue that what itactually is is allows parents to
have the traditional liturgy andthen form their children
themselves.
Yeah.
Like it's not, it's not that.
Like you're going to oh, you'reyou it's nothing, and you guys
(27:05):
aren't proposing a better plan.
Like your your your approach isnot doing anything.
SPEAKER_06 (27:12):
But it can I give you some insight as to why they
think the way that they do, atleast I think in in Steven's
case, I don't know about theothers, but I mean, I'm pretty
sure I remember him sayingpublicly, uh, you know, you
don't there's no you have noneed of being in commute any
kind of communion with yourlocal bishop.
I mean, I think the presumptionis that every diocesan bishop is
(27:34):
a heretic, basically, and youdon't, you know, so you go to
the SSPX, you don't need anapproved traditional Latin mass,
but the problem is that therearen't the SSPX isn't
everywhere, you know.
Yeah, and or also they I thinkthey would uh they would say go
to a said chapel, and that has awhole other set of problems with
(27:55):
it because and they're noteverywhere either.
Well, yeah, practicallyspeaking, first of all, but you
know, more spiritually speaking,like that's my main concern with
this new crusade against TradInc.
I think it's really about tryingto legitimize 1958 set of
contism.
I know obviously I know that'sthe case with the WM review.
SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
Uh yeah, I'm not buying that thesis either.
Like, I'm sorry, like I do likeyou guys, and I do um I do think
you guys make a lot of goodpoints.
I'm not buying the 1958 SETAthesis, it's just not convincing
to me.
It's too much um it's too muchlike theory, like it's a good
theory, but too much theory, andthere's no proof to it, and
(28:39):
there's no solutions offered.
There's no solution to it, andthen if you start getting and I
try talking to um Mario andKevin about this, like if if
your position is that the novusordo sacraments and the novus
ordo orders are invalid, likethe church is done.
SPEAKER_06 (28:57):
Exactly, and that is part and part that's what people
need to understand.
That is part and parcel with1958 Cedivicantism.
A lot of people don't realizethat Cedivicantists hold that
there are no legitimate diocesanbishops anywhere in the world.
Anyone ordained after thecouncil is invalid, uh the new
rites are completely invalid,there is no more visible church.
(29:20):
That is the logical end of theirsystem.
SPEAKER_02 (29:22):
And and and Gregory, it's not oh no evil sedes.
Like, I have conversations withyou guys, I just like I just
don't buy the theory.
I'm sorry.
Like it's there's a bit ofGnosticism in it.
It just is.
It's like, oh, I know thissecret thing happened, and that
the Pope was a Freemason andthat invalidated the papacy.
(29:44):
It's like, no, like I don't Idon't I don't buy it.
I'm sorry.
Maybe you do, and I'm notjudging you for it.
I I think there's evidence forit.
I just it's not enough proof forme.
Um so um the claim on the table,thesis, stop naming error.
And Leo will be freer or moreinclined to expand the old
right.
Implied cost, criticismendangers permissions, silence
(30:07):
purchases them.
It's not like you're saying I'mimplying that, but I'm not.
I'm just saying slow down for alittle bit and let's see where
this goes before you go intofull attack mode.
It's more just a bit of it is abit of prudence in this area.
Um, goals spare families fromdriving four hours for a TLM
baptism right, uh, fortraditional right baptism and
(30:29):
rotating chapels by strategicdeference for the length of
Leo's reign.
This is what they nice.
The thing is, like I know mostof like the online sets that we
deal with don't go.
So, in other words, set inkyou're talking about, yeah.
SETA ink, and it's reallythere's like a handful of them
(30:51):
online, they don't go to mass,like, and I'm not like I've I've
left the sacraments underFrancis because I was what do
you mean they don't go to massbecause they have nowhere to go,
right?
So they're like, Well, if therewas a valid mass, I would go,
but there's no valid mass, sothey don't go.
I know what happened to my lifewhen I left the and that was
leaving the Novus Ordo.
SPEAKER_06 (31:12):
So well, there was one famous said, I don't know if
you've heard of him, JerryMetatics, I think is how uh
forgive me if I mispronounce hisname.
He was a Protestant minister, asI recall, converted to
Catholicism, got intotraditionalism, but then went
way off the rails into set ofcontas, eventually became a home
aloner.
Like he didn't think anywhere,he couldn't go anywhere.
Nowhere was valid, nowhere waslegitimate.
(31:34):
So he would just read from themissile at home.
That's my under that's myunderstanding.
That's so sad.
SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
Yeah, I don't I I I don't I I just know what
happened to me in my life, so Ican only go by experience.
I don't know.
I mean, maybe that maybe it'sanecdotal, but it's it's my
experience when I left thesacraments.
What happened, and I'm not doingthat again.
SPEAKER_06 (31:57):
And not even the SS, like other a lot of people seem
to be under the impression thatum the SSPX holds that the new
rights of ordination areinvalid.
That is absolutely false.
The SSPX, you can search ononline Google SSPX New Rite
Ordination Consecration.
They hold that both the newright of priestly ordination and
(32:18):
episcopal consecration are bothvalid.
So there, these people are goingeven way beyond what Archbishop
Lefebvre and the society goes.
SPEAKER_02 (32:29):
Yeah, it's uh um so uh let's see if there's anything
else worth the trap of indultfor quiet.
The bait is obvious.
Speak deferentially, keep a lowprofile, and a new indult will
appear, perhaps devolved tobishops, perhaps dressed in
unity, but the unwritten priceis silence about the revolution.
I don't think we need to besilent about the revolution.
(32:50):
I think we still should betalking about the catastrophic
changes since the council.
I think that we shouldn't becircular firing, calling this
one trad ink, calling themcowards for not speaking the
truth.
I think it's just a differenceof how we go about this.
I don't think anybody is sayingignore the revolution.
Um uh even without a formaloath, the leash will be enforced
(33:15):
by fear.
The moment a priest preachesagainst fiducias, fiducia,
amora, synodality, ecumenism,etc., permissions can be
revoked.
As Leo said, such things arepolarizing and the use and use
the liturgy as a political tool.
In doing so, Leo has reduced thetraditional Catholic faith and
its defense to a mere foreignideology.
Okay, so look, the other thingis under traditionis, there were
(33:39):
tons of bishops who just choseto ignore traditionus, they just
chose to ignore it, and thenRome interfered and like forced
them to enact it, right?
Now if you get if you getreleases on Traditionis, or if
it gets, I mean, I don't thinkit will, but if it totally gets
(34:00):
you know scrapped and everybodygets their mass back, mass back,
and then the bishops allow it,like then I don't think the
podcast arena is such a big dealbecause most of these parishes
are stable on the ground, andmost bishops didn't want to
cause any trouble with theseparishes, like for the for the
most part, they didn't.
They were kind of put in aposition, and then the the
(34:20):
problem is Leo is putting peopleinto like as bishops in these
dioceses that are now like whatwhich which was it Garcia on his
way out of California, just justtossed four TLMs, I think.
Um in Monterey.
In Monterey, yeah, like on hisway out, he's like four days
(34:43):
from going into Austin, and onhis way out, he's like, Yep,
we're gonna squash your TLMbefore I go.
Like these these men are beingelevated to positions within the
within the episcopate.
So I don't I don't know.
I'm like I don't know.
I don't know what I'm not I'mnot trying to be some some uh
like trad icon that tellseverybody what to do.
SPEAKER_06 (35:05):
I'm just kind of surveying the Catholic, you have
publicly said you want to ruleTradistan.
SPEAKER_01 (35:14):
You did I knew I'm gonna rule Tradistan one day.
SPEAKER_02 (35:22):
I will rule Tradistan.
Oh, that is funny.
Oh, don't call me out on my uhthat's why he wants to keep it
together.
SPEAKER_03 (35:32):
Keep it together and it breaks apart.
SPEAKER_06 (35:33):
He's got little yeah, you're not gonna have a
kingdom to rule pretty soon.
SPEAKER_02 (35:36):
Oh man, we gotta keep it together, guys.
Come on, I don't want to be kingof the ashes.
SPEAKER_03 (35:43):
I don't want to roll rule over a dust heap.
Come on, um, you'd be like uhRomulus Augustus and be just the
last emperor of the uh the RomanEmpire, basically.
Oh man.
SPEAKER_02 (35:59):
I don't know, I don't know what the answer is,
but all right, the plea isalways framed as compassion,
stay quiet for the sake ofparents and children, but at
best it offers an illusory ofsafe, an illusion of safety, a
state room on the Titanicfloating for now while the ship
still sinks.
But the ship here's my allright, here's the thing you can
take it off screen.
Like, this ship is sinking, likeI don't know what to tell you
(36:19):
guys, and nothing we do is goingto change that.
Like, I am at a point where Ithink things are so apocalyptic.
I think we are at the end of thestory.
I don't, I know you guys hatewhen I blackpill, Rob hates when
I blackpill.
I don't see how we're not at theend of the story, and I do think
something is going to happen.
I see Israel having you know theJewish people being called back
(36:42):
to Israel and having theirtentacles throughout the world
the way they are, being atransnational nation the way
they are.
I don't see how this all isn'tleading to the end of the story.
I know what the story ofChristianity is, I understand
the enmity between the olderbrother and the younger brother,
I understand the way storieswork, and we are coming to the
end of the story.
(37:02):
So I I don't know.
I don't I don't think anythingwe do is going to change that.
There's no amount of complainingon Substack that is going to
change the position that ishappening in the church.
I don't, I just isn't.
So, yes, I do think we have tofigure out a way to just find an
(37:24):
enclave to be Catholic and livea Catholic life and raise our
children Catholic in themeantime while we're waiting for
something.
SPEAKER_03 (37:31):
All I ask is if the rapture happens, that it you get
taken.
SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
Oh yeah, you'll be left behind, my friend.
In peace and quiet, all the meanthings you say about people on
this site.
SPEAKER_06 (37:43):
Well, I think what we're going to see in one form
or another, we're going to seethe fulfillment of the third
secret of Fatima.
We haven't seen that yet.
There's going to be the reign ofthere's going to be the triumph
of the Immaculate Heart of Marybefore the second coming of
Christ.
I think that's very wellestablished.
And 2029 is a big year becausethat's seems to be the
(38:04):
hundred-year deadline for doingthe actual consecration of
Russia, which has yet to be donecorrectly.
Um and our Lord seemed toindicate in a in a locution to
Sister Lucia in 1931, he made acomparison between you know his
instructions to St.
Margaret Mary Alcock regardingthe consecration of France,
(38:25):
which was in 1689, and almost tothe day, a hundred years later,
it hadn't been done right, andthe ball started rolling towards
the French, you know, thebeginnings of the French
Revolution.
So he said to Sister Lucia, youknow, if if my min tell my
minister, I'm paraphrasing alittle bit, if my ministers, if
they follow the example of theking of France, they will follow
(38:47):
him into misfortune, you know.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:49):
So yeah, and almost a hundred years to the day it
happened back then, right?
SPEAKER_06 (38:54):
Right, when when when the king finally does
consecrate, and it was like toolate, and it's going to be a
similar situation in in in oursomebody says in the chat, uh
Gaspers doesn't think Francis'consecration was legit, even
though Bishop Schneider does.
Clearly, it wasn't.
And I do, I I think BishopSchneider is probably a living
saint.
He probably will be, you know,one day possibly canonized.
(39:18):
I think he's a very holy man.
I do respectfully disagree withhim on that because we haven't
seen the promised fruit of theconsecration.
Our lady made it very clear.
She says, In the end, myimmaculate heart will triumph.
The Holy Father will consecrateRussia to me, and it shall be
converted, and the and a periodof peace will be granted to the
(39:38):
world.
What does conversion mean?
It doesn't mean the fall ofcommunism.
Sister Lucia made that veryclear to a priest named Father
Joaquin Alonso, who was theFatima official Vatova archivist
for many years, had many privateconversations with her.
(40:05):
It doesn't even mean a return tothe practice of Russian
Orthodoxy, which is schismatic.
It means a return of Russia tothe Catholic faith.
It doesn't mean they have tobecome Roman Catholic.
They'll probably have some sortof a Russian, there's already
actually a Russian CatholicChurch over there, an Eastern
Rite Church, but they do have tobe in communion with Rome.
(40:25):
That is what the conversion ofRussia means.
SPEAKER_02 (40:28):
But doesn't that's a little too spicy?
SPEAKER_01 (40:33):
What?
No, come on, what the Catholicbishops have to become Catholic
before Russia becomes Catholic.
SPEAKER_06 (40:41):
Well, that's a fair point.
That's a fair point.
But I personally I think thatthat the con the actual real
consecration is going to unopenthe floodgates of grace for that
to happen.
SPEAKER_02 (40:52):
Yeah.
See, yeah, I I'm just look, Iknow the story of Christianity,
and I know we are building up tosomething so apocalyptic right
now.
Like the council itself was anapocalyptic moment.
Paul the sixth laying down hispapal tiara is so symbolic of
the church laying down herauthority.
(41:15):
Doesn't mean that hersovereignty passes to another
people, but she lays down herauthority.
The Pope is the catacomb,essentially.
He's the last he's the pontifexmaximus.
Like he is the Roman Emperorlaying down his crown and his
authority.
And there's something to thathappening that is related to the
(41:38):
apocalypse where a star fallsfrom heaven and the key, the key
to the bottomless pit is opened.
Like who has the key?
It's the Pope.
So the key to the bottomless pitis open and the earth is flooded
with demons, and that timeperiod is what we're living in
right now.
SPEAKER_03 (41:52):
I I can't do you know who are gonna be the most
insufferable converts, though.
It's gonna be all the Rokourpeople when the when the
conversion happens telling usabout our faith.
SPEAKER_02 (42:04):
The uh there's going to be look, I mean, I Trump ran
on, and and that's the otherthing.
I see a lot of these guys arelike so pro-MAGA, and I'm just
like, do you guys really not seeuh what is going on with
politics right now?
There is no Republican andDemocrat.
(42:24):
It's not, it's all one entity.
Everything we're watching rightnow, you're seeing Republicans
come out and say the same thingleftists did about censorship,
about um like all of this stuff.
It's still the deep staterunning everything.
Trump has not gutted the deepstate, none of it.
It's all the same apparatusworking the same way.
(42:46):
It just has a different personin.
You have Trump in, and that'sgetting MAGA to go along with a
lot of this stuff.
Like, I voted for Trump.
I wanted Trump to be the guythey think he is, he's just not.
Like he just it it the peoplehave such a a false hope in
political means it's nothappening, like like we're not
(43:10):
getting out of this throughpolitics.
This whole thing is leading upto something, and you're going
to see the world at war soon.
Like, I don't care.
You're seeing the Russia warescalate, you're just is the
country is falling apart.
You look at like we're alwaystalking about a two-state
solution in Israel.
And if you really think aboutwhy they're even having that
(43:31):
conversation, is because ifthere was a one-state solution
in Israel, that would meanIsrael would have to make the
Gaza Strip all citizens and theywould have equal voting rights,
and they would vote the Israel,the Jews out of Israel.
And that's what they did in ourcountry.
They opened the floodgates tolet the Mohammedans in so that
the Mohammedans would then electtheir own people, and that's
what you see happening inMinnesota, right?
(43:53):
You see Minnesota, you're seeingthem elect their own mayors.
That's what's happeningthroughout the world.
They've managed to convinceformer Christendom to open the
gates of their country to theMohammedans, and they're all
coming in, and you're going toyou're going to see things pop
off soon.
I'm I don't know, man.
SPEAKER_06 (44:14):
I'm seeing another reason why I think we need
Russia to convert and become anally of the Catholic Church is
to, and that's also like St.
John Bosco talks about that inone of his visions.
I remember Father NicholasGruner mentioning that in one of
his conference talks many yearsago about salvation coming uh
from the north, uh evil comingup from the like the Mohammedans
(44:36):
coming up into Europe from thesouth, and Russia after the
conversion of Russia, them beingthere in Europe to defeat the
Mohammedans, many of whom willactually embrace the Catholic
faith.
SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Yeah, like like salvation will come from the
East again.
SPEAKER_06 (44:51):
Exactly.
Yeah, that's the and that's thephrase that uh Father Malachi
Martin also used in some of hisinterviews toward the end of his
life.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Look, the the whole the wholeidea of of um allowing migrants
into our country was never aboutvotes.
I mean, it is about votes, butit's more about making it so
that we are no longer a people,right?
It's making it that we havenothing in common with one
another.
So when World War II happened,you had an American culture, and
(45:20):
the Americans went because theythey but you did.
There was no culture, there wasenough patriotism where people
wanted to fight for theircountry.
Like if our country went to warright now, would you want to
fight for your country?
SPEAKER_06 (45:33):
We would be so screwed if we were right, but
but that's all that's all I'msaying.
SPEAKER_03 (45:37):
So, yeah, there's nothing that unites us as a
people where you fight forAmericans wanted to fight World
War II.
Did they fight the right fight?
SPEAKER_06 (45:47):
No, maybe not, but they were still united enough as
a people in towards evil in asense, like as far as the whole
as far as the holy land isconcerned, maybe we should just
go back to the kingdom ofJerusalem.
SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
All in favor of that, say uh yeah, but that but
but that's the thing, it was aChristian land, like all of the
the whole Middle East was aChristian land at one point, and
then Islam came in and wiped itout.
And when you allow Islam to comeinto Europe and into America and
into Canada and all thesedifferent places, it's only a
(46:23):
matter of time before they justdo the same thing, right?
Um, this is why you can't justsay I'll stay at home and teach
my family and not worry aboutthe church.
Civilization is crumblingbecause the church is not
defending worry about thechurch.
No, but the thing is, I don't Ijust don't think anything we're
doing is going to change theseevents.
That's all I'm saying.
SPEAKER_06 (46:43):
Like right, it's not we need a Catholic version of
Charlie Kirk doing what he wasdoing for the social kingship of
Jesus Christ.
That's what we need in thechurch right now, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
That would help.
I mean, it would help, but it'sstill not like.
Do you see how silent ourhierarchy was on the Charlie
Kirk thing?
SPEAKER_06 (47:03):
Yeah, so I don't think they've said anything,
other than I mean, BishopStrickland has has said some
good things.
I don't remember who all elsehas said things, but very few.
Uh Archbishop Vigano'sArchbishop Vigano posted about
it, so so kudos to him for that.
Uh, I can't remember if I'veseen any other bishops posting
(47:23):
about it.
Oh, Cardinal Mueller said somenice things in his interview
with Diane Montagna.
So there have been a few, butnot.
I mean, the USCCB, I don't thinkthey've they certainly haven't
rolled out the red carpet likefor George Floyd or anything
like that.
SPEAKER_02 (47:38):
It's but that's what I mean.
Like it's inside look, there'sno earthly solution to how bad
things are.
It is so bad.
There have been so many wickedmen raised to the to the ranks
of of the episcopate at thispoint that like it's going to
take an act of God.
SPEAKER_03 (47:57):
Oh, it depends what you mean by earthly solution.
I I think if if if we had greatsaints rise up, you know, a a a
modern Saint Dominic, right?
To to to preach a newAlbigenzian crusade against the
the issues we have, um, youknow, a new um Bernardo Claveau
(48:20):
to to preach a crusade againstthe Mohammedans, things like
that.
If you had great saints rise uplike that, um and maybe they're
out there.
I'm I'm sure maybe they probablyare.
But I mean here's the otherthing I think that's or that
could be a solution, whether ornot you call that an act of God
or earthly, you know, throughman.
SPEAKER_02 (48:37):
Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_06 (48:41):
I think the other thing we have to keep in mind
regardless, you know, sanctity,we all need to be pursuing
sanctity in our own daily lives.
I know Father Ripperger talksoften about the fact that I
forget exactly how he puts it,but um, you know, the the power,
the spiritual power of thechurch in a certain sense is
dependent on the the holiness ofthe members of the church and
(49:04):
the the virtue and the meritsthat we have, you know, because
we're cooperating with God'sgrace and living a holy life.
That's one reason why it takesso much longer for pre for
exorcists to complete a majorexorcism.
You know, decades ago it maybewould take a few days, now it
takes months to years toliberate someone, and it's
(49:26):
because the church is spiritual,the human element of the church
is very spiritually weak rightnow because so many of her
members are either dead orlukewarm, you know, we're not
living our faith fervently, andthat has real consequences.
SPEAKER_02 (49:42):
Yeah, and I also think that like the the allure
of that the church had in theearly church, especially like
you had all these miracleshappening, the church was like
at its brightest in the earlycenturies, and then it goes
through a period where you'dalways have saints performing
(50:02):
miracles and having massconversions and stuff.
You're constantly hearing thisdebate about is the church
growing, is it shrinking?
It's like it's shrinking, like Iand especially in in the west,
it's shrinking, like it might begrowing in certain regions and
other places, but in the west,Christianity is on the decline,
uh, completely on the decline.
You might have pockets ofgrowth, and there might be some
(50:27):
fervor in those pockets, butoverall, the church is in the in
the decline, it doesn't havethese great miracles to show
anymore, it doesn't look likethe church of the like it
doesn't look like it.
It doesn't, it's it looks likeChrist after he was scourged.
That's just what I see rightnow.
So I don't know.
Look, I I don't know how God isgoing to fix this, but I do
(50:50):
think God is going to fix this,and I don't know.
And Andrew, no, that's not true.
It's not like you'd reject thegreat saints for being mouthy
and rejecting apostate bishops.
If I see great saints doingthis, we'll we'll go from there.
It's not I'm I'm watching peoplelike my peers doing this, and
I'm talking to my peers.
If one of them's a great saint,I I defer, I'll follow your
(51:11):
lead.
But I think all of us are tryingto figure this thing out.
SPEAKER_06 (51:14):
Well, the other thing that they need to keep in
mind is that saints defer to theauthority of the church, they
don't make themselves theprivate judge of who's an
apostate and who's not, theydefer to the judgment of the
authorities in the church.
SPEAKER_02 (51:29):
Yeah, look, this is this is a complicated issue.
I don't know.
I you know, I want to at leastaddress the article, um, and uh
and address these guys.
Like, I I I I I like all theseguys.
I think that we're all on thesame team.
Like, I don't, you know, I thinkit's I think it's it's not like
any of us don't believe theCatholic faith.
(51:49):
We all see there's a major issuethat happened with the council.
That is the source of 90% of theproblems.
We're seeing it play out, it'splayed out over decades.
The the conversation is now whatis the approach?
What do we do?
Now, you guys, I'm not sayingdon't continue to point out the
errors of Leo.
I'm saying might want to goabout a different strategy than
(52:13):
than taking shots at your fellowCatholics who believe the same
thing as you, or even have adisagreement.
Like there's ways to have thisconversation where it's not
where it's where it's not tryingto like ruin somebody else's
reputation or credibilitybecause they're they're doing
something out of cowardice orsomething like that.
I just don't think that's whatit is.
I don't think anybody got somememo.
(52:34):
It's not like trad ink exists,it's not like trading got a
memo, you guys are gonna do thisnow, and everybody's following
marching orders.
I think everybody's kind of justtrying to readjust under the new
papacy, see what the strategyshould be to go from there.
I I don't think there's somesomebody leading this thing.
That's all I that's that's allI'm thinking.
SPEAKER_06 (52:54):
Well, if people if people want to know where I
stand on Leo, they can listen tomy uh my discussion I had with
Ryan Grant on Monday of thisweek.
We went for uh over three hourson my channel, Very Tati's Vox,
dissecting in great detail hisrecent interview with Crux.
And I have we had plenty ofcriticisms, we're certainly not
(53:16):
holding back, but we also don'tneed to uh go to the other
extreme and say, well, you know,Leo's not the Pope because I
personally think he's guilty ofheresy, like that's just not how
it works.
SPEAKER_02 (53:29):
Well, trad inc exists in as much as there are
people who made their living bybeing trad and presenting the
trad position.
That is like if you're gonna saywho's trad inc, if somebody is
making their livelihood onpresenting themselves as a trad,
that is what you could say istrad ink, I guess, right?
Like that's that they're makinga living.
SPEAKER_03 (53:51):
I'm just Stephen Cox is trad inc.
Yes, yeah, that's the thing.
SPEAKER_06 (53:56):
Like, where do you draw the line?
I was managing editor ofCatholic Family News for over
seven years.
Does that mean I'm trad inc?
Because I mean, that's basicallysaying that journalism is not a
legitimate profession.
That's what you're saying.
I'm not gonna go there, Matt.
SPEAKER_02 (54:13):
It's absolutely a legitimate profession.
I know people need to read.
SPEAKER_06 (54:16):
Ken Kennedy Hall wrote an outstanding article a
couple years ago for the uh NewOxford Review, where he
distinguished between aprofessional Catholic, which is
the pejorative, versus aCatholic professional.
I I would highly recommendpeople find that article and
read it.
I forget the title of it.
SPEAKER_02 (54:35):
Trad ink and someone who does three hour podcasts,
shouldn't someone who does threehour podcasts with Ryan Grant.
That's what you were supposed tosay.
You were supposed to accuse Mattof being trading.
SPEAKER_06 (54:45):
I don't even monetize my channel, people.
It's all free.
I don't even have any paidsupporters.
SPEAKER_02 (54:51):
You're seriously that you should.
SPEAKER_03 (54:54):
If you're gonna be called trad ink, man, you might
as well make money.
SPEAKER_02 (54:57):
You may as well cash in on it, bro.
Come on.
Um, all right, so we're gonna goover to locals and we're gonna
we're gonna do the Protestantcanonization of Charlie Kirk
because I have a lot of thoughtson that.
Um, I didn't think this would goan hour, I didn't know where it
was gonna go tonight.
But I yeah, look, um I I hope tohave conversations with these
guys.
Like, I really do.
I I I would like to haveconversations with them.
(55:19):
I I'm I'm probably gonna doanother one with Mario and
Kevin.
Um I I Joshua Charles said hewas open to discussing the
passion of the church with theset of acantists, so that's a
possibility too.
Like, I'm not I I I'm I don'tknow.
I'm I'm open to allconversations, man.
Like, I and I'm gonna get a lotof things wrong.
(55:40):
Like that last show we did, Isaid a bunch of things when I
was tired, and then I went backand I and I was thinking about
it.
I'm like, yeah, there's a littlesoft pedal in that because I was
probably trying to be toocordial or something.
Like, I I am I'm too amiable.
I like to I I want like I fallinto that mode of not wanting to
(56:00):
to argue with people, and it Idon't it's it's hard for me.
I'm an Italian and I likeeverybody to get along and
stuff, so you know it's one ofmy faults.
That's an Italian thing, yeah.
Yeah, we just want everybody toget along, be happy, and I'm not
yeah, you know, unless somebodylike directly confronts you, and
then it's just you'll go fortheir throat, right?
So this morning I woke up and Isaw that Chris wrote that
(56:21):
article, and I was like, I'mgonna I'm gonna go for his
throat.
And I was Chris, I almost lostit if you're watching.
Like, and then I calmed down abit.
I was like, All right, I'llsettle down a bit.
Uh um, it's uh it's it's notjust using your brain, it is
that, yeah, absolutely.
It's actually using yourintellect, it's using your it's
(56:42):
using your intellect, but it'salso looking at um looking at
the promises of Christ as well.
SPEAKER_03 (56:49):
And like a lot of actors use their brain too, so
you can't just say that.
SPEAKER_02 (56:56):
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, everybody claims they'reusing their intellect, right?
There's gotta be there's gottabe something to it.
So um, all right, we're gonnahead over to locals.
Um, we'll see where thisconversation goes.
Uh, we'll probably give it arest for next week.
It was, you know, just on mymind this week.
Uh, I hope everybody uh doesfigure out a good a good game
(57:18):
plan and that everybody couldcome to the table and have a
conversation.
That's that's my position on it.
How about you, Matt?
You got any got any finalthoughts before we go?
SPEAKER_06 (57:28):
Oh, I'm not sure.
I think I've said what I wantedto say about it.
I mean, um I just I think it'sin poor taste to use the
pejorative constantly.
I mean, and it's almost gettingobsessive at this point.
I think that's what reallystrikes me as odd.
Like, is that I I have to agreewith you.
Like, if I were building aplatform, I wouldn't want it to
(57:50):
be about obsessing about myenemies or those who I perceive
to be my enemy.
SPEAKER_02 (57:55):
Like, you gotta be pursuing something good, it
can't just be attacking otherpeople, and and I think it's
also about like buildingrelationships is very important.
It just is well.
Should we do super chats beforewe go, Rob?
We we we definitely should readsuper chats before we go, sure.
Um okay.
Uh, I think two two biggestissues as one interfaith church
(58:18):
replacing missionary churchnecessary for salvation, and two
changes to the mass.
Yeah, like uh ecumenism is byfar the most baffling thing
since the council.
Um, the idea that Muslims andJews worship the same God as us,
I am completely baffled by I Ithe way I see it is Jesus goes
(58:38):
and tells the Pharisees theyworship the devil.
I don't know how we make senseof that.
Um Bobby says, uh, the point ofthe council was to meet the
world where it is.
The post-conciliar popes, inthat spirit of the council, have
been afraid to offend the world.
I agree wholeheartedly withthat.
Um, and then papal monarchistenjoyer.
(58:58):
The issue that I had with thatarticle when I read through it
is that by proxy, it leavesyoung trads like me in a
difficult spot of feeling liketraitors to the cause that we
were never a part of.
SPEAKER_06 (59:09):
The art meaning Chris Jackson's article.
Chris Jackson's article, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (59:12):
I assume so.
Yeah, like the yeah, yeah, likeI can I kind of get that, right?
Like you read through it, andit's like any anybody that takes
that position, it's like you'rebetraying some movement or
something.
I I don't I don't know.
I just think it's a disagreementon on approach.
(59:34):
That's what I think of it.
SPEAKER_06 (59:35):
And like I think a more constructive way to
approach the whole issue wouldbe to be exhorting if you if you
think Michael Matt doesn't havethe right strategy, if you think
Taylor Marshall doesn't have theright strategy, share
respectfully share yourdisagreement and exhort them to
maybe reconsider.
Don't start trashing them astrad ink.
(59:56):
That's just gonna that's justgonna turn them off to you and
It's not gonna do anything, it'snot gonna help.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:02):
Yeah, they're not like me, they're not gonna get
down in the mud and talk to youguys.
SPEAKER_05 (01:00:06):
Like, like I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:09):
I like I like I like getting in the mud and talking
to everybody.
Like, I don't those guys aren'tgonna they don't even talk to me
usually.
Michael Matt, Michael Mattdoesn't talk to me.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:18):
Oh, I was gonna say the person I feel most sorry for
right now is Michael Matt.
That's because he's gonna makeone of two mistakes on Sunday
when you're at mass with him.
He's either going to acknowledgeyou and then have to listen to
you, or he's gonna ignore youand then have a video made about
him.
SPEAKER_02 (01:00:38):
He's gotta know who we are.
He has to know who we are.
It's it's virtually impossiblefor Michael Matt to not know who
we are.
I've never had a conversationwith the guy, but come on.
If he pretends he doesn't knowme, you're right.
There's gonna be a videoafterwards.
I know I brought it.
Yes, you guys are the rip rap.
(01:01:00):
Yeah, if I go and I and I meetMichael Matt or I see him at
Mass and he pretends he doesn'tknow me, there's gonna be an
episode after that.
I'm joining the Mad Trads.
I was gonna say I'm writing anarticle for Chris Jackson.
Trad Inc is a problem.
Yes, absolutely.
I will absolutely I'm gonnawrite an article for Chris
Jackson Substack if thathappens.
(01:01:21):
I'll tell you right now.
He doesn't even have a silverYouTube play button and wants
Michael Matt to acknowledge him.
SPEAKER_03 (01:01:29):
Oh you think Brad would have us on if we had a
silver play button?
SPEAKER_02 (01:01:33):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I can't figure Matt out.
I like Matt.
I actually talked to him theother day.
We'll uh we'll see how thatgoes.
We're gonna we're gonna try anduh keep keep keep keep all
channels open for dialogue.
We'll see how that goes.
I know it'll happen.
We'll get Kevin James on, andthen everybody will want to talk
to us.
That's how it's gonna go.
(01:01:54):
Kevin James is Catholic.
I just heard that.
It's so crazy.
Somebody just mentioned KevinJames is Catholic, and I can't I
can't get over it.
It's wild.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:03):
Next, you're gonna tell me like Rob Schneider's
Catholic, too, or something.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:06):
Rob Schneider's Catholic?
Um, no, but Father Rippiger isjoining us on Tuesday, right?
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:13):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:14):
You're the one that made it so the 29th, right?
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:18):
Yes, father Ripper on the Monday's the 29th,
Monday's the 20th or the 30th.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:22):
Yeah, yeah.
The next show we're on, FatherRippiger will be on with us.
Nice.
Let's talk about Trading.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:29):
No matter how many times you pull that joke,
someone falls for it.
Every time.
SPEAKER_06 (01:02:35):
I'm happy to say I'm gonna be having Father on my
channel as well pretty soon.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:39):
Father Ripper is the Catholic.
SPEAKER_06 (01:02:44):
When do you have Father coming on?
Uh October 13th, Fatimaanniversary.
SPEAKER_02 (01:02:50):
I'm glad we got him first.
We're gonna get the juicy soundbites out of them.
We'll leave you with nothing.
Um all right, guys.
We're heading over to locals.
If you guys aren't members, comeover there.
That's where we have all the funand we uh we get pretty fun so
far.
It's always fun on our show.
We always have a good time.
But all right, we'll see youguys on the other side.
Take us out, Rob.
SPEAKER_00 (01:03:28):
Hello everyone.
Uh, this is Ryan here, your hostat Preconciliar Radio, uh, doing
my first broadcast uh today on atopic that unfortunately um I'm
deeply, deeply saddened.
(01:03:48):
And I'm deeply saddened for uhmy day job uh is that of an
attorney, and I am suing someonefor monetary gain.
SPEAKER_03 (01:03:59):
Thanks a lot, Anthony.
Oh man.
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