Why This Ex‑Protestant Pastor Came Home to the Catholic Church...and Brought 17 People With Him!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:27):
I wanted to make it clear that we weren't going to
play the taffy intro for thisone.

SPEAKER_03 (00:43):
So we're going to start off our show just doing
our ad read, and then we'regoing to bring Aaron on.

SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
Um, yeah, okay.
Not used to uh beingprofessional like this.
I don't like it.

SPEAKER_03 (00:56):
Yeah, and I'm not used to you starting the show
off.
It's really completely offkilter.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
Not a fan of this one bit.
Anyways, let's get into the adread for uh you know, because
because of you, Ant, I I hatesaying their name now because
you always make fun of me forsaying requisite.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
It's perfect.
Just keep saying it the way youdo, Rob.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Just stick with it.
Okay, okay.
Um, let me uh let me pull upthis new little teleprompter
feature we got here.
Trying to make thisprofessional.
Um, anyway, so uh for any of youwho don't know, we're we're
sponsored by Requisant Sellers.
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(01:37):
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(01:58):
That's r-e-c-us-ant-tsellers.com.
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(02:30):
Um, you guys have two weeks leftto get your 20% off.
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Now, Rob, kick it into the introthat you're gonna use, and then
we'll get Aaron on.

SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
Okay, so we are gonna introduce Aaron by
stealing from Fred and KeithNestor, which only feels right.
So perfect.

SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
Uh a good friend of mine, very anti-Catholic at one
point in time.
He told me before when I firstbecame Catholic, he says, we
need to talk about this.
And it was not gonna be good.
I could tell he was very upsetwith me.
Very theologically mindedperson.
He just says, I need tounderstand you better.
I need to understand what youbelieve better.
I don't think that I reallytruly know why you did what you
did.
So help me to understand.
What a humble question.

(03:17):
It was completely humble.
He opened that door, and so whatI didn't want to do was go, all
right, let me give you the youknow, nine arguments or
whatever, this or whatever that.
I just thought you need tounderstand what the church is
from the church.
Let's get you a copy of thecatechism and just read it.
He said, Okay, and then here'swhat he did.
He said, I made a chart.
He read every paragraph of thecatechism, and for the
paragraphs that he agreed with,as a five-point Calvinist
reformed guy, he said, everyparagraph I gave either

(03:40):
basically like a star, an X, ora check mark.
And the check mark was I agreewith this.
The X was I don't agree withthis.
And the star was I need to findout more information.
Okay.
So he started going through thisprocess, which led him.
He read the whole catechism.
We went to dinner at his housemaybe a month after I gave him
that challenge, and we'resitting around talking about the
Lord.
He goes, Hold on a minute, andhe holds up the catechism and he

(04:00):
just goes, This is beautiful.
And then he said it down and hegoes, Okay, never mind, I just
need to tell you that.
And I just thought, this is it,he's gonna be Catholic.
Over the course of many months,he began with that chart, and
then what he would do is hewould research those areas where
he wanted more information.
We met a few months later, maybeit's a year later, and he sat
down with me and he said, I needto I need to show you my chart.
Pulls the chart out, he throwsit down, and he's got it all

(04:21):
sorted by the date.
And he's like, Here's all thestuff, and he goes, But then I
read this book and I had a talkwith this priest, so then you
know we moved these over to thatcategory and we went through
this thing, and then this day,we went through this for like
two or three minutes, and thenfinally he pulled it off the
table and he says, And nowhere's where I am today.
And he threw a blank piece ofpaper down.
He says, These are myobjections.
He's become Catholic.
Wow, and I've seen what he's hadto go through for this.

(04:42):
One other quick story on this,it just happened.
It's another one of my friends.

SPEAKER_03 (04:46):
All right, well, I guess we don't need Aaron on.
Keith just told the wholeconversion story.

SPEAKER_00 (04:50):
Yeah, I guess we're done.

SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Give it my guys.
I'll bring them on.
You do it because all right,Aaron Gorn, how are you,
brother?

SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
Good, good.
Thank you for having me.
Good night, everyone.
Um, that's the story.
That's it right there.

SPEAKER_03 (05:05):
Right before the show started, I was I'm trying
to think, I'm like, when was myfirst interaction with Keith?
And I so I had seen Keith onYouTube, and I think I prayed
the rosary on one of his likewhat like one of his rosary
things.
I I just sat and prayed therosary with him in his stream
one night, and then we had likea brief interaction on Twitter,
and I think he was kind ofshocked that I liked him.

(05:29):
Like, like I think people haveoh no, no, no.
We're all shocked that he likedyou.
That yes, but I think he assumedlike I was like a hardcore trad.
And that and I'm like, nah,well, I'm not really like that,
Keith.
So we had a quick interaction onTwitter, and then we got Keith
on the show and we've hit itoff.
And then I talked to Keithweekly, like I at least once a

(05:50):
week we're on the phone talkingwith each other and stuff.
But how do you know Keith?

SPEAKER_01 (05:55):
Oh boy, um it goes back.
So technically, my wife knewKeith long before I did.
They went to church camptogether, and I don't know, they
might have been in well, my wifemight have been in junior high,
I don't know, maybe elementary.
There's this picture there'sthis picture Keith has of them.
There's this big bell on a bigframe at this church camp, and

(06:15):
Keith's climbed way up to thetop, and my wife is down at the
bottom.
They both look like they'reabout six years old.
And that, but at one point whenI had dropped out of college for
a time and came home, a mutualfriend got a hold of Keith to
come and try to put a bandtogether, and uh, so that got
going.
And because I knew this mutualfriend, all of this stuff, you

(06:37):
know, Keith was the drummer, Ikind of was just the tag-along
guy, and so Keith Keith cancorrect anything if he's in the
chat there, but that's as I ran.
So that goes back to either '92or '93.

unknown (06:49):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (06:50):
And so um he he stood up in my he was a
groomsman in my wedding, and soI don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (06:56):
So you guys, all right.

SPEAKER_01 (06:57):
So now I'll 33 years or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (07:00):
You're like Jimmy Buffett, and he's like 80s hair
metal.

SPEAKER_01 (07:05):
How does that no?
So that's that's I don't know.
It's not.
I said, Well, this isinteresting, it's probably not,
but you know, just yesterday,Ace Fraley passed away, you
know, and my first concert wasKiss when I was nine years,
eight years old, 1979.
So that's my musical pedigree iskind of rock, metal, classic

(07:28):
rock, and stuff like that.
We were both Metallica fans.
Keith liked a lot more hardcorestuff than I did.
Um, he introduced me to well, Idon't think I've ever introduced
Keith to anything.
He knows so much more aboutbands than than I do, but um, I
don't like everything he likes,and he certainly doesn't like
everything I like.
But we do have a uh the Venndiagram has a good crossover.

SPEAKER_03 (07:50):
And you both got into ministry as well.

SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Yes, um, it was kind of my plan.
I think back back then, goingthat far back, it really wasn't
his plan.
If you ever heard his storyabout how he became a pastor, he
wasn't looking for it, it foundhim.

SPEAKER_03 (08:06):
Keith, he even when he came on our show the first
time he was on with us, he'sjust got preaching in his DNA.
Like when even when he tells hisconversion story, it just amps
you up.
You just like you you end up onfire for Christ every time you
don't tell him I said this.

SPEAKER_01 (08:21):
Do not tell him I said this.
But he is far better at thatthan I am.
Um I was a manuscript and notepreacher, you know.
That's how I gave sermons, it'show I was trained, but it's also
how I was comfortable.
It's like he looks at his, hemight, you know, whatever notes
he puts together, he looks athim for about 15 minutes and
then he can go out and give anhour-long sermon without even

(08:41):
looking at him again.
That's not me.

SPEAKER_03 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah.
All right, so enough of theglazing of Keith Nestor.
We all like him.
Great.

SPEAKER_01 (08:48):
That's what we're here for.

SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
Yeah, all right.
You you got all your you got allyour shout-outs tonight, Keith.
We're not gonna talk about youanymore.
Um, okay, so what don't you whydon't you take us back to um uh
what what like give us like ageneric upbringing you had and
what led to your originalconversion to Jesus Christ in
the beginning, and then when thewhen the dominoes started to get

(09:10):
a little troublesome for youwhere you where you had to you
know figure something out withthe church, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
So my early life as a Christian up to just last
year.
Um okay.
Uh I I grew up in the church.
I grew up in the Lutheranchurch.
So um, if you don't know whatthat is, just brief description.
I grew up with what would be inin mainline Protestantism, kind
of a high liturgy.

SPEAKER_03 (09:33):
So it was like Missouri Synod.

SPEAKER_01 (09:34):
I it was not, it was um, it is today the ELCA, which
you know, but it wasn't calledthat then.
I just don't remember what itwas called.
Um, but it was that thatdenomination.
But high liturgy, you know, thereadings, the the you know, the
uh the the lectionary, you know,so it but it would have been the

(09:55):
revised standard lectionary.

SPEAKER_03 (09:57):
Uh but they followed the Catholic lectionary, right?

SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yes, except the revised part of it.
So, you know, they wouldn't haveJudith in it or Tobit or Wisdom,
you know.
So it was most, you know, acrossProtestantism, for those who use
the lectionary, they pretty muchall use what's called the
revised common lectionary.
And I think it's revised fromthe Catholic lectionary.
But yes, the the origin theorigin of it is the three-year

(10:22):
cycle of the Catholic.

SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
That's what my my wife was Lutheran, and it looked
very much like a novus ordo.
Yes, like her liturgy lookedvery much like a typical novus
ordo you would go to on aSunday.

SPEAKER_01 (10:34):
There are a lot of common elements.
When I when I first um attendeda mass, which was just a daily
mass with Keith, when I wasn't,I I was just it was just it was
academic to me at that point.
I was like, wow, a lot of thisstuff is really familiar to me.
But anyway, so I grew up in theLutheran church, but it never
nothing really took root, itdidn't matter to me.

(10:55):
And I probably only went till Iwas about 15 or 16.
And then and then I just didn't,and I was kind of nothing at
that point.
I had a generic belief in God, ageneric belief in the Christian
God, but it wasn't until um, soI graduated high school in '89,
it was in '92 that I would say Ihad a pretty dramatic conversion

(11:17):
experience and gave my life toJesus.
And I ended up dropping out ofcollege because I had been
pretty directionless anyway atthat point.
And I knew I needed to get mylife straightened out, not just
in terms of my faith and um andgiving my life to Jesus, but
what in the world am I evendoing?
I've wasted, I basically wastedmy life up to that point, and I

(11:40):
needed to get reoriented, youknow, to to the true north of
Christ.
So I dropped out of college, Imoved home and um kind of got
involved with this mutual friendI was just talking about.
Um and man, things went reallyfast as I remember it then.
He he wanted to do a musicproject, he he did that and got

(12:02):
that going.
That's how Keith got into themix.
I met my wife at the church thatI started going to with them.
She was she was actually asenior about to graduate, and uh
we met and uh yeah, we starteddating with the permission of
her parents and you know, churchleadership because it was a

(12:24):
little bit odd because she wasstill in high school and I was
I'm four years older than sheis.
At any rate, a lot of thingshappened right there in that
nexus, you know, of that thatnexus of time and space where
certain people and certainevents just really brought me
into the church of my ownvolition now and very
enthusiastically.

SPEAKER_04 (12:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (12:44):
And so, as to what I found was when I when I really
kind of gave my life to Christ,I would have said nothing ever
stuck from my time as aLutheran.
But as soon as I started readingthe scriptures, it was like I
was reading, I was going backover old ground that I've
covered before, and I couldn't,it was astonishing how much just
came flooding in that was there,but I had just it never took

(13:07):
root.

SPEAKER_03 (13:07):
So you know, that's that's an interesting thing
you're saying because for likeuh I because I complain about
like my lack of catechesisgrowing up, but it was once I
started getting into it, it waslike, Oh, yeah, yeah, that's
what that oh, like all of theritual you do in the liturgy
does have meaning, and then whenyou start learning about this
stuff, it kind of clicks foryou, and you're like, Oh, that's

(13:28):
what that was, that's what thatwas.

SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
Yeah, it wasn't at all like I had to start from
square one, it was all there, itjust needed to be kind of
ignited, you know.
I suppose ignited by the HolySpirit, and it was so, of
course, all the you know, peoplesee that, and I'm retaining a
lot of scripture, I'm I'm youknow, digesting, I'm devouring
scripture.
And of course, the comments ofwell, you should be a pastor.

(13:50):
This feedback starts coming in.
Because if you're very much intothe scripture, then obviously
you need to be a pastor.
And I don't say that todenigrate that, you know, that
advice, but it seems like that'sjust the one path.
It's like if you're gonna knowscripture, then you have to be a
pastor.
And I've come to the point whereI don't think that's necessarily
wise, but in my case, it's whatI wanted to do, and um, but that

(14:13):
was a long haul to get to thatpoint.
Um, probably not terriblyrelevant um for this, but
suffice to say, the path from medetermining or deciding that
that really is what I would liketo do to the point where I
actually became a pastor wasvery convoluted.

(14:33):
This church, that church, weboth Cammy had to go to college,
I had to finish college, and itwas just kind of roundabout, and
it took time before it got tothat point.

SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
So, about how old are you when you actually get
into a place of leadership in achurch?

SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
Uh well, a place of leadership in the church.
The I I first served as adeacon, so that would be an
officer, you know, low localofficers, elders and deacons.
And I was a deacon probably2005, something like that.

SPEAKER_03 (15:08):
And this is in the ELCA?
You would no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 (15:11):
By now, I by now I'm reformed.
By by that point, I'veencountered uh a few different
people who have moved me fromwhere I was to now being
reformed.

SPEAKER_03 (15:22):
Who are those people?
Who did you come across?

SPEAKER_02 (15:24):
Well, if you would just let him continue the story,
he wouldn't.
I gotta pick up things.

SPEAKER_01 (15:28):
I can't those things.
I want to know exactly whosomething was.
It's it's a okay.
It's a okay.
This isn't even live, Rob, it'sjust us talking.
Yeah, yeah.
But okay, so I had bouncedaround.
I'd been, you know, I'd gone toa Baptist church, I'd gone to a
quasi-Mennonite church, um,probably something else, if I

(15:48):
remember, you know, I was kindof maybe stereotypical
Protestant, but I was finding myway a little bit too because I
was learning so much, and youknow, different different people
were having an influence in mylife.
But it was when I was in collegeat um, yeah, yeah, it was when I
was back in college, probablyabout 19, let me think, '93, um,

(16:12):
a reformed Baptist pastor and Istruck up a relationship, and
he's the one who introduced meto reformed theology.
And through him, it was R.
C.
Sproul who who became my guy.

SPEAKER_03 (16:26):
The reason I asked that is because my and I know
this is your conversion story,and I've told this on air, but
like my original conversion orreversion had to do with me
listening to Protestantpreaching on the radio and
listening to them.
I bought an RC Sproul book onthe Book of Romans, and it like
sent my mind for a loop.

(16:48):
I was like, like it was justkind of kind of wild.
It eventually led to me beingCatholic, but uh I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
He'd be pleased to know that.
Um, yeah, so I I actually methim once in St.
Louis, but that's beside thepoint.
Um, so that started a trajectorytheologically for me, where now
it's no longer just am I goingto be a pastor?
It's I know that I want to be areformed pastor.
And eventually through kind of aroundabout, again, my no paths

(17:19):
for me were straight, but um, Iended up being asked to serve as
an interim pastor in a DutchReformed denomination.
It's the same denomination thatJohn Bergsma used to be in.
And um, so I went there, I wassupposed to serve a year as an
interim pastor.
Theirs had just stepped down.
They didn't want to go anextended time with without some

(17:41):
sort of stability there.
So I had been serving inleadership at another church
anyway, and that same mutualfriend that I mentioned before
was there, and he kind ofintroduced me to people.
They offered me the job for anuh for a year, interim pastor.
But three months into that year,the search committee came to the
leaders and said, if Aaron'sinterested, we think he's our

(18:05):
guy.
And I was interested.
And so that started aconversation, which also led to
um you know, a more permanentcalling or a more official
calling.
It also led to me um takingseminary classes at the same
time.
So I was in seminary while I wasa pastor, kind of doing both

(18:26):
things, and eventually graduatedfrom a reformed seminary with an
So this is what 2005?
I started in 2009 at the churchthat and I was at the same
church as a pastor the wholetime, 15 years at one church,
and uh um and that started latein 2009, and it ended at the my

(18:47):
last day was the last day of twoof 2024.

SPEAKER_03 (18:50):
Wow, that's crazy.
Okay, so so now you're you'rethere as a pastor, um, and you
do what uh so I did nothing.
No, you you did like six 16years there, right?
Like 15, like you just said,yeah.
Oh, from oh nine to 24, yeah,yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (19:08):
So 15 years 15 plus a couple of months, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (19:11):
When when does the is was Keith's conversion the
thing that triggers you lookinginto the Catholic Church, or
were there other things in inthe along the way that started
doing that?

SPEAKER_01 (19:21):
Keith's conversion was the thing that triggered me
wanting to wring his neck.
Um so well, actually, it goesback before that.
Um again, he was looking at theCatholic Church a while before
he converted, and so I as Iremember it, I hate to tell this
knowing that he's in the chatbecause we remember this
differently.

(19:42):
But I remember that we were atsome event where we were
playing, so we we ended upplaying like praise band stuff
too at different churches anddifferent Christian events
around the area.
And I as I remember it, we wereat a school and they were having
some several churches had putsomething on together, and we
were almost ready to go on.

(20:02):
Like the band was about ready togo on and do the opening praise
songs and stuff, and hementioned to me that he'd been
talking to a friend that he'dmet, um, and that he was
considering becoming Catholic.
And I am I am deep in my cagestage of reformed theology right
now.
And I should explain that.
The cage stage is this when yougo from anything else to being

(20:27):
reformed, you become rabid, youbecome and it becomes something
that you club people over thehead with to try to get them to
believe what you believe, youknow, and you maybe just figured
it out, but you but you can'tbelieve, you know, it took me 10
years, but you can't believethat they're not believing it
right now.

SPEAKER_03 (20:42):
It's like the set of economicism of the Protestant
world.

SPEAKER_01 (20:46):
You become really dangerous and really
destructive, and you need to belocked in a cage for at least a
year.
That's the cage stage.
So, but I was I was well intothat, and and boy, I laid into
him about that, and you know, uhjustification by faith alone.
And I I don't even remember allthe stuff I said to him, but I'm
sure it was quite a tirade.

(21:07):
But um, at any rate, uh, and thethe singer in our group kind of
had to get us to shut up and youknow, and kind of bring us hey,
we got we got songs to go, wehave worship to go lead, and you
guys are sitting here arguing inthe you know in the background,
having a theological debate whenyou have to sing.

SPEAKER_03 (21:23):
Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (21:25):
So I as I recall, that was my first uh that was
his first salvo about telling methat he was looking at the
Catholic Church.
But you know, our timelinesdiverged because he went out to
Philly and um, you know,eventually came back to Iowa.
And you know, so I think I thinkhe's 2017 is when he converted.

(21:46):
And uh it was nowhere on myradar at all at that time.
But he and I, you know, we bothhad we both had young families.
We lived just far enough awayfrom each other that's really
outside of the zone of whereit's convenient when you've got
a bunch of young kids.
And so I think that the I thinkthe hostility that I felt

(22:08):
subsided.
Um, it really wasn't thereanymore, but just circumstances
kept us from really being a partof each other's lives for a lot
of years.
So um, I don't know when thatfirst encounter was at that
school that I was talking about,but by the time he converted, I
don't remember that he and Iwere in much contact with each
other, other than Facebook andyou know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
So so what starts the dominoes falling for you
then?
Like what are the first thingsthat sought to trigger you where
you're looking at things alittle differently?

SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Well, it started because we did we kind of got
back in touch with each other,and uh I I think it probably I'd
seen him on Facebook doing hisRosary Crew stuff, which just I
was like, what in the world?
You know, what has happened toKeith, you know?
Um and so, but I also kind ofthought I kind of miss him, you

(23:02):
know.
Again, don't tell him I saidthat.
But so I started, I kind oftrolled him a little bit.
And uh you troll troll someone,no, never anthony.
Let me explain to you whattrolling means.
Um, so I got I watched a few ofhis videos, and you know, like

(23:24):
one of them, this is think so tome, Anthony.
I remember you kind of going ona tire about how Catholic
converts can throw out a videoon why solar scriptura is a
bunch of, you know, and and theyget a you know, a billion hits.
And Keith, I think, was the oneyou were talking about.

SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
That's how that was our first interaction because
Keith put out a video about SolaScriptura, and I came on the
show like the next day, and Iwas like, I don't get it.
These converts come on and theydo a video on this, it gets
80,000 views, and me and Rob areover here slogging it out two
hours a night, two not two timesa week, and we can't get over
three thousand views.
And keep keep saw it.

SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
Yeah, so I saw that, which which was a little bit
later, obviously, but um, sothis is uh this is 2023.
And after uh, you know, I'dcommented on some videos of his,
and that's when he was on yourchannel.
I found this out later becausehe's well, actually, it was much
later than that.
Sorry, I'm getting out of thetimeline, but um we connect,

(24:25):
okay.
We we talk back and forth andthought, well, let's let's meet
halfway for lunch and just kindof catch up.
And so we did that, and whichmeant about a 45-minute drive
for each of us, and it wasgreat.
Uh, it was a good time catchingup.
I still was like, I don'tunderstand half the stuff you're
talking about and why you wouldeven want to do this.

(24:45):
But on my way home, I thought tomyself, you know, if if if we're
gonna reconnect in this way,which is what I wanted to do, I
need to at least understand hisworld from his point.
I need to do the work of being afriend and understanding his
world from his perspective.
And he had in one of his videoshad um said something like, you

(25:07):
know, if you want to know whatthe Catholic Church believes,
and he held one of these up andsaid, You should read the
Catholic Catechism, becausethat's what's you know, as
opposed to what this person orthat person says or whatever,
like that.
And I know a lot of people inthe Protestant world, a lot of
them that you probably interactwith on X, Anthony, is uh, and
and probably you too, Rob.

(25:28):
You know, they're coming frommodern evangelicalism or
non-denominatenon-denominationalism.
So you talk to them about acatechism, and they're just
like, hey, I got the Bible.
Yeah, but that's not my world.
Almost everywhere I was ever apart of a church, there was a
catechism.
And as a pastor, I was bound byconfessions, you know, by and we

(25:51):
had the creeds, it mightinterest you.
Uh, we we had the apostles, theNicene, and the Athanasian, the
same ones, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
But we had the Reformed uh one holy Christian
apostolic church, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
Yeah, yeah, but we had our reformed doctrines as
well, you know, the confessionsthat were specifically reformed,
but I've always been bound byother confessions and stuff.
So to read a catechism, it'snothing, you know.
To me, that wasn't some act ofbravery on my part to pick up a
catechism, it was just secondnature.
So I started reading it, andthat's what he's talking about

(26:25):
in that clip from Pints.
And I just started um a few ofthe details are wrong, but I
don't, yeah, there's no wayyou're gonna see that.
I I was circling, you know, forevery article, there's an
article number.
Yeah, and so I just to keeptrack of where are things going
with this and how am Iprocessing this, I just started.
If I agreed with a particulararticle, I would circle it, the

(26:49):
number.
If I wasn't sure, needed didn'tquite understand it, or wasn't
sure I would need to understandterms better, then I would put a
box around the number, arectangle.
And if I flat out was like,yeah, no way, I put a triangle
around the number.
So that's how I did it, and itwas all academic.
It was all right, challengeaccepted.

(27:09):
I'll read the Catholic Catechismand try to understand your world
a little bit better.
So that started um probably inMay or June of 2023, because we
had lunch together on May 4th,2023.
And the only reason I rememberthat is because that's Star Wars
Day, you know, May the 4th.

SPEAKER_03 (27:27):
So May the 4th.

SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
So that's why I remember that.
Because I'm a nerd.
If you can't tell from mybackground, I'm a nerd.

SPEAKER_03 (27:35):
So um, so okay, so that's yeah, so let me let me
that's 2023.
Um, when did you come across us?
Because we've been interactingwith you like way before you
converted, like you were stillProtestant when you started
watching our show andinteracting with us and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
Yeah, I feel like he was maybe in the live chat of
our first show with Keith.
Oh, that's possible.

SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
No, I I I can actually this part I do kind of
remember well.
Whenever that was, um, so by thetime Keith was on your show, I
had gone to one daily mass withhim.
I'd come over to Cedar Rapidsand I just wanted to see what a
mass looked like.
I I don't even remember if I'dfinished the catechism at that
point.
I probably hadn't, but still,I'm just kind of this this

(28:22):
learning.
It's like I was I was givingmyself my own college course or
whatever on the Catholic Church.
And uh so I came over to I cameover to his uh to his church and
we went to mass, went to a dailymass, and he introduced me to
his priest afterwards, and Ican't remember if I went back to

(28:43):
his house or whatever, but itwas good time just connecting.
And then down the road, thisother friend of mine who was was
and is a pastor, he and Istarted talking about different
things, and it got around totalking about mass and talking
about some of the debates,Protestant Catholic debates and
stuff like that.

(29:03):
And he was talking about howhe'd never been to a Latin Mass.
And I said, Well, I've got afriend who goes to one, and uh,
in fact, I thought about I havethought about going just to see
one.
I saw a daily mass, I'd kind oflike to see a Latin Mass.
So he and I ended up going to aLatin Mass at the Feast of the
Assumption, and that's whenKeith was on your show.
He was telling you about how wewere I was coming over and he

(29:27):
was talking to you about how hethought I was trolling him when
I first made contact with him.
Like I wanted to try to arguewith him again or something,
which was a reasonableconclusion on his part given
some of our previous yeah, hewas on our show August 10th of
23.
Yeah, so in August 15 was right,as in August 15th.

SPEAKER_02 (29:46):
Yeah, yeah, the assumption.

SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
So, yeah, it was right before that, but I think I
found that because I was lookingfor another video.
Uh, there's so many threadshere.
I think I was looking for avideo for a Trent Horn video
that I had seen, and I couldn'tfind it.
And I think you had been talkingabout Trent Horn, or maybe it
was in the title or somethinglike that.
That's how I saw your channel.

SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
And then I do those videos, by the way, because
we're hoping against some of hisaudience.
So we'll do it, we'll dosomething.

SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
Just try to so on August 15th of 2023 on the Feast
of the Assumption, we did a showwith Trent Horn.
Oh, you did?
So you probably searched forTrent Horn.
That's it.

SPEAKER_01 (30:23):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
I saw that.

SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
So that video pops up, but over on the side are the
suggested videos, and I seeKeith there.
I was like, what the heck?
So then I watched that and I sawhim talking, and it was like
right early on, and you guysstarted talking about it, and he
was talking about this friend ofhis who was coming over for a
Latin mass with another pastorfriend.

(30:46):
Well, that was me.
That was what was going onthere.
So yeah, that's so that's August2023, and I'm still just kind of
I'm studying, you know, this andI'm enjoying that kind of a
thing.
Um, but no interest, absolutelyzero interest in the Catholic
Church, but but kind of um kindof delighting in the fact that

(31:07):
there's so much more in commonbetween what I where I was and
where Keith was than I everthought uh imaginable, honestly.
Because of the caricatures, youknow, because of you know, you
learn about Catholicism fromreformed people who don't really
like Catholicism, it tends toskew your view a little bit, and
you your knowledge is verylimited and selective anyway.

(31:30):
But um, you know, uh G.K.
Chesterton in his book uh TheCatholic Church and Conversion,
he talks about the three stagesof conversion that Catholic that
people who convert to theCatholic Church go through.
And the first one is deciding toplay fair with the Catholic
Church.
You just decide to, you know, totake the Catholic Church at its

(31:54):
own from its own perspective,you know.
And uh and the second step isyou become uh you you find
you're surprised by the amountof truth that you find present
in the Catholic Church, andyou're actually a little bit
happy about it, you know.
It it kind of you're no, thesepeople are Christian, yeah,
exactly.

SPEAKER_03 (32:14):
So yeah, because because you're you're trained to
think that we are a pagan entitymasquerading as Christian.
So when you start to find out,oh wait, they actually are
Christian, it probably softensyour heart, and you're like, oh
great.

SPEAKER_01 (32:29):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And and just to know thosepoints of contact are so much
there because especially for youknow, in my case, where I've
already grown, I've grown upwith the creeds anyway.
And just to have all that commonground, I mean, how much of the
catechism is an exposition onthe creeds?
Right.
There's so much that's therethat's that's the same, you

(32:49):
know, or at least it's it'sclose enough, it's it's very
much common ground, and sothat's that's you know, looking
back on it, that's probablywhere I was at the time, but I
was not aware of that, you know,in terms of Chester stuff,
Chesterton's three stages.
His third stage is where theconvert is desperately trying
not to convert to becomeCatholic.

(33:12):
Yeah, and I don't know, I don'tknow if I really kind of went
through that one that way ornot.
You know, another part of mystory that it would go on and on
and on, but the my reality isthat in spring of 2021, I was
already ready to not be a pastorif God wanted to call me out of

(33:34):
it.
Um, the events of 2020 and theway I experienced it and
everything like that, I wasspent.
It had taken everything out ofme.
And you know, so I I I kind ofhad that prayer, kind of had it
out with God a little bit inprayer.
And you know, it's like I'm onan interstate driving at night,

(33:55):
and it's foggy, and visibilityis about 50 feet.
And if there's an exit ramp upthere somewhere that God wants
to show me, I'll take it.
And that was in 2021, and thenthings kind of escalated in
different ways, some of itfamily deaths in the family, and
a lot of other situations thatcame on my plate.
That a lot of stuff justhappened that you know, there's

(34:18):
a lot of things, it it takesemotional energy to be able to
give yourself to certain things.
And I don't know if I I shouldsay especially as a pastor, but
there are many things you do asa pastor that if you have an
empty tank, it just starts toruin you if you have to do
certain things, you know,certain tasks.

SPEAKER_03 (34:35):
You you see the value in a celibate priesthood,
I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
I I do actually.
I've asked that I've been askedthat question a lot, and you
know, about you know, with theassumption being, yeah, that's
crazy to have a celibatepriesthood, but I see it in a
whole different light now.
I see, I see the wisdom in itbecause I was torn.
And and there there was a periodin there after after my wife's
probably after uh her dad diedin late 2021, that kicked a lot

(35:03):
of things into gear, set a lotof things in motion that
necessarily involved me gettinghighly involved in talking to
this entity, talking to thatentity, and and she became the
guardian, legal guardian of anolder sister overnight who has a
mental disability.
And so you're dealing with thestate, you're trying to find
information for them that youdon't even know exists, you

(35:24):
know, and so it just took a lotout of me, you know.
Not not to make it a big sobstory.
Everybody has lots of problemsin life.

SPEAKER_03 (35:31):
It life can be very hard, but it's to be doing that,
dealing with all that, and haveto shepherd an entire church and
and be responsible for the soulsof an entire church.
That that's a very tall orderwhen you're not when you're when
your heart's not in the rightplace.

SPEAKER_01 (35:49):
Yeah, and mine wasn't.
I I hadn't I was I was runningon empty to quote an old song,
and um, and it there were timeswhere I felt like I really had
just one parishioner, and it wasmy wife.
And and everything that wasgoing on with you know, with
concerning her family and thethings going on there, it took
everything I had just to dothat, just to tend to the things

(36:12):
that I needed to tend to there.
And you know, in retrospect,maybe I should have um
recognized that better than Idid, and maybe I should have had
a conversation about resigninglong before I did.
But you know, you're you're neara man, you just want to tough it
out.
I can do this, you just getthrough it.
And and there are certainaspects of being a pastor that,

(36:33):
like any job, can get a littlelike you could almost do it in
your sleep, some of the things,but but it's certainly not
everything, it's probably notit's not most things, and um
yeah, so it just it got reallyhard.
I got to the point where everySunday when I'd wake up, you
know, you're in that fog and youwake up and you're not quite
sure what day it is yet.

(36:53):
But when I would realize it wasSunday, I would instantly be
sick to my stomach.
Oh that all of that, so again,dating that to I mean, it
started in 2020.
By spring of 2021, I've had thatprayer um with God, I've had
that little wrestling match withGod about, you know, I'm ready

(37:15):
if you want to show me the exitramp.
But I didn't act on that for along time.
And so, you know, reconnect withKeith two years later in 2023,
start reading the catechism.
And yeah, he said in that inthat clip, in the uh maybe about
a year, I don't, it's hard forme to remember the timeline, but

(37:36):
um the thing is there are layersto this because all this time,
while I'm more and more wantingto find that exit ramp, wanting
God to show me that exit ramp,my wife doesn't want anything to
do with that.
She doesn't, and understandably,we're my my my church that I was

(37:57):
at, that's our hometown.
Yeah, we're both from there, andso we know a lot of people
there.
A lot of the people at thatchurch were our friends before I
was the pastor there.
Um, so it's tough, you know.
There's a lot of connections,there's a lot of dependence in a
good way, you know, mutual thepeople betrayed.

SPEAKER_02 (38:19):
It's Midwest small town, I mean, right?
So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:23):
And so there's no easy way to think about doing
that, especially when it's yourit's your job, you know, this is
what I trained to do, it's all Iever wanted to do.
You know, I I was either gonnadie as the pastor of that church
or retire at whatever age, or ifat some point they decided they
didn't want me anymore, theycould tell me it was time to

(38:45):
move on.
But resigning was never everpart of the plan, except that it
kind of became my plan.
If I could see a way out, if Icould, I was confident that if I
tried to resign just because Iwas tired and couldn't do it
anymore, I would screw things uproyally.
And so I just kept trying towait on God to show me when and

(39:05):
where, you know, that exit rampwas.
And yeah, it was a long time.
And again, I I don't think I dideverything as well as I could
have, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (39:14):
So, so how is okay?
So, now how is your wifehandling you looking into the
Catholic Church?
Is she like she is there a lotof tension in the home during
this period?

SPEAKER_01 (39:25):
Not at first, not at first, because this is what I
do.
I, you know, I get I getsomething that I'm interested
in, and then all of a suddenAmazon boxes start showing up at
our house, and I just read, youknow, and it's what I do, and so
in in one sense, it was nodifferent than anything she'd
ever seen.
She did start to get nervous themore I was hanging around with

(39:48):
Keith.
Um, but she likes Keith.
She likes Keith.
So, but you know, she's she'sbeen through this before, she's
been through it.
The kind of a joke in our familyis if if I say we need to talk
about something, she's justlike, no, not again.
Not again.
We went from Methodist toBaptist to this to that to

(40:11):
reformed and said, not again.
This is it, and but that reallywasn't what was going on.
But as she sees me reading more,she gets she starts to fear the
worst.
She feared it before it actuallybecame a thing.
But here's where the here's kindof where the it's hard for me to
get back in my mind of that timebecause I was my world was just

(40:33):
going off the rails because ofall this other stuff that I
talked about.
I wasn't thinking clearly aboutanything at that point.
Um, but she's very nervous aboutwhat's going on, and and I
probably don't even really knowfor sure what's going on, other
than yeah, one by one, any theobjections that I see about the

(40:55):
Catholic Church are dropping.
But in my mind, I already knowthat the time is coming when I'm
gonna be trying to figure outwhere we're gonna go to church
anyway, because I know my timeas a pastor is coming to an end.
And so I'm thinking aboutpossibilities, and I know that
it's I know that it's got to besomething with uh, you know, a
liturgy.
I'm not gonna go, you know, I'mnot gonna go to a lot of

(41:18):
churches.
There's a lot of churches thatweren't possible for us to go
to.
And I'm I'm looking at this froma view of not just what I want,
but what we want.
And I can see that the CatholicChurch is a non-starter for her.
So, regardless of what I wasthinking, there's the there's
the what I was learningtheologically and what I might
have been inclined toward, ascompared to what's actually

(41:42):
gonna, where can we go where wecan be at peace, you know?
Because I just couldn't envisionanything where we're at
different churches.
That to me, that wasn't apossibility.
I suppose if God had saidsomething and it was very clear,
but I did not have thatindication and it wasn't my
plan.
So, you know, 2024 at some pointis where you know the the the

(42:04):
last dominoes probably fell, butit was much it was earlier in
2024 when I really saw, and Ithink the leaders really for the
first time saw just how um justhow uh frazzled I was.

SPEAKER_03 (42:21):
Um how little I you were you were in our live chat
for almost every one of ourshows back then, and we were
always making jokes about yeah,yeah, sure, sure, Aaron, you're
Protestant, all right.
We all knew, like we knew assoon as you start looking into
it, it's kind of like you'reyou're kind of just going, you
know.
It's uh it's anybody whoactually does put the time in to

(42:41):
study it and look into it, theyend up there.
So we all kind of knew a yearbefore you had even gone through
any of this that you wereeventually going to become
Catholic.
So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
Well, you know, as a credit to your show, you you
know, you've said a lot that youwant your show to be a place
where people like to come andhang out, and I found that to be
true.

SPEAKER_04 (43:02):
Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 (43:02):
It was fun to come and hang out, and yeah, I mean,
yeah, I wasn't I wasn't in fullagreement with you guys, but
again, I was kind of in thatphase where it was it was nice
to see that there's actually afellowship that I can have with
Catholics because I'd beentrained for so long that I
can't, you know.
It's so weird, you know.
Now on X, it's so weird to seethe comments that get put out of

(43:24):
the out there how Catholicsdon't know their Bible at all.
And I read that as like I seeit, and then all of a sudden I
realize, oh, wait a minute,that's me.
I can work with Hebrew andGreek, and I was a pastor for 15
years, and that but I don't knowmy Bible, huh?

SPEAKER_03 (43:38):
Yeah, well, so at what point do you get introduced
to Scott Han?
Because every convert has theirScott Han moment where they go
and they discover the theProtestant pastor who explains
his conversion throughscripture, right?
So I you had to come across himat some point.

SPEAKER_01 (43:54):
Well, I first came across him in a book, you know.
That that was my firstintroduction, and um, you know,
it's funny.
I think Keith gave me his uhHan's conversion video many,
many, many years ago, and it didnothing for me.
I I watched it and I was like,you know, I think he gets to a
point at the end where he'stalking about when he sees the

(44:16):
host elevated in mass and justwhat it did to him.
And I'm sitting there watchingthat going, What is wrong with
you?
And that, but it was differentreading, you know, this the the
book that he and Kimberly wrotetogether.
Um really striking to read that,and so yeah, that hit me very
differently at that point.

(44:37):
It that would have been it forme, um, reading that book.
I did at one point, I drove thiswas late, late, late in 2024.
I might, I think I probablymaybe had already announced my
resignation by this point.
I announced my resignation tothe leaders in early September.

SPEAKER_03 (44:57):
I announced the reason you gave them.

SPEAKER_01 (44:59):
Oh, they all knew it was exhaustion.
Oh, okay.
I was everybody could see it,and and frankly, there were
things where I had dropped theball on some things too.
I just, you know, it was I wastrying to spin too many plates,
and some of them were dropping.
And um, and they saw it, youknow, but they they didn't ask
me to.
They, you know, we were we hadsome talks.

(45:20):
I tried to explain what wasgoing on.
Um, and nobody again, nobody, itwasn't just me who really didn't
have any space for thepossibility that I would resign.
It just wasn't the plan, youknow, yeah, for anyone.
But I I don't think anybodyrealized how just how strung out
I was, you know, how you knowBilbo tells Gandalf that he

(45:44):
feels like butter scraped overtoo much bread.
I gotta throw in some Tolkienreferences, guys.

SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
People are answering the comments and talking about
Lord of the Rings.

SPEAKER_01 (45:51):
Yeah, so okay, okay.
So now so that that's how Ifelt, and they saw that and they
knew that, but but so I toldthem.
But what happened was it was soCammy and I were about ready to
leave for Florida for a vacationat the end of August.
And there was there wassomething that that we became
aware of and talked about it,and it was something that was

(46:14):
definitely going to I was goingto have to face when we got back
from vacation.
And it wasn't on the surfaceanything problematic.
If you were looking from theoutside, you wouldn't have
thought anything about it, butit was something we were aware
of, and it was something thatstruck us in a way where for the
very first time, this is thiswas it, this was the moment, she

(46:35):
said to me, Maybe this is theexit ramp.
And I was like, You gotta bekidding me.
You see that now too, and and sowe we decided this vacation,
we're gonna spend a lot of timetalking and praying and really
discerning the will of the Lord.
And is he calling us?
Is this it?
Is he calling me to resign?

(46:57):
And we went down to Florida tothe Gulf and um spent a nice
week down there, but we spent alot of time talking about this
too, and we ended up um we endedup deciding, and when we came
back, I resigned.
So that was early September,early October.
We announced it to thecongregation, and and then I on

(47:20):
their request, because it was itwas amicable.
Um, they asked if I would bewilling to finish out the year,
and I was because I didn't haveanything lined up anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (47:28):
Throw any throw any Catholicism in your sermons?

SPEAKER_01 (47:31):
You know, I I did, but not really intentionally.
I mean, no, I didn't.
You know what?
I'm gonna say I didn't, andhere's why because going back to
2023, this is a tangent.
You want me to go down this roador not?
Yes, okay.
In 2023, yeah, Advent of 2023.
For Advent, uh I'm doing asermon series just through Luke

(47:55):
One, and um so I'm reading onyou know, these passions I've
preached these before.
You know, I don't have myreading glasses on, so it's
probably good that I can't seeyou definitely preached a sermon
about Mary.

SPEAKER_03 (48:09):
Okay, who that was Keith?
Keith, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:12):
Okay, so what happened was I'm supposed to
just spend my whole time readingthe comments, right?
Yes, yes.
Bull Joshua Charles, please.

SPEAKER_03 (48:19):
Take your glasses off, we'd rather you not see
them.

SPEAKER_01 (48:21):
Yeah.
Um, it was it was advent, and ofcourse, I've gone through Luke 1
a thousand times, and I'm justlike, I, you know, what can I do
that maybe brings this to lifein a way that I haven't before?
And so, you know, of course,I've read by that time different
things about from the CatholicCatechism, but I'm looking at,
excuse me, I'm looking atdifferent reformers and what

(48:44):
they said, and I'm justdumbfounded about how they can
believe that Mary remained avirgin, you know.
I said, How can you think that?
And it wasn't that long beforethat that a guy had asked me at
church, it was funny, he justout of nowhere, he said, he
said, you know, just itliterally out of nowhere.
It was just this, you know, theCatholics believe that Mary was

(49:08):
a virgin the rest of her lifeafter she gave birth to Jesus.
I said, Yep.
He said, But we don't thinkthat.
I said, Nope.
Why not?
I said, Well, because the NewTestament talks about his
brothers, you know.
I gave the thing, you know, Igave that answer.
That was just what I thought.
And so when I see that thesereformers don't think that way,
that that she did remain avirgin, I was like, How in the

(49:29):
world can they think that?
So I started looking into thatand discovered their reasons
why, which you know is just theancient doctrine of why, you
know.
And I was like, wow, that'sreally interesting.
And but you know, I'm I'mecumenical enough.
I'm not interested in fightingwith every denomination.

(49:50):
I'm interested, you know, we canall look around the world and
understand that Christians onwhatever level we can need to
stand together with with what'sgoing on, and that's where I'm
at right now.
And I'm just like, you know, Idon't like seeing the baby
thrown out with the bathwaterwhen there are differences.
You don't have to jettisoneverything, you know, just
because it might smell a littleCatholic or something like that.

(50:13):
And so I just kind of dropped aphrase into this Advent sermon
about how it seems that the bestexplanation for why Mary was
surprised at what Gabriel saidto her was that she had taken a
vow of celibacy, you know, andand just and it was really it
was really not fair, to behonest.
Because I said that and then Ijust kind of moved on because

(50:34):
that wasn't my main point.
But boy, I got questions aboutthat afterwards.
And but honestly, some of themare really good.
Uh they were really open, youknow.
Some of the people in the churchthey were asking me, you know,
what about this?
And I said, Yeah, well, here'sthe thing, and oh, that makes
sense.
And we just had goodconversations.
I had a couple that, you know, Idon't think really wanted to

(50:55):
listen, but that didn't surpriseme, and we just moved on.
But what I would often do in thesummertime as people are coming
and going and vacations andstuff like that, I would do a
series through part of thesummer where I would just take
theological questions thatpeople had or whatever, and I
would build a sermon based onthat.
I would just answer thosequestions through the medium of

(51:15):
a sermon.
And so, guess you know, guesswhat the number one question I
got was?
You know, and I and I had I hadbeen getting that question too.
It wasn't just then.
So, so I decided to give asermon um in answer to these
questions on the perpetualvirginity of Mary.
So that would be the one sermonthat I gave, I think.

(51:37):
I mean, I don't know how much ofit was in, you know, how much of
it crept into other sermons, I'mnot sure.
Yeah, again, I'm boundconfessionally, you know, it's
not like I was trying to be arebel, but I think I gave that
one and and it it kind of that'sthe one that Keith posted.
That's why I think he's sayingthat because he posted it on X.
That one's actually on myYouTube channel.
There's not much there, but thatthat's there.

SPEAKER_03 (51:58):
So even Catholics, I think, don't grasp what we're
saying when we say she's aperpetual virgin.
That means her hymen remainedintact after giving birth.
Like that it's it's you'resaying her her virginity
remained intact even through thebirth.
Like it is very miraculous whatCatholics believe.
It's not just uh she didn't havesex, you know, it's a it's a

(52:21):
very deep doctrine.

SPEAKER_01 (52:22):
So it is, and and I came across, I really didn't get
that, you know.
Even once we're in 2025 and andwe know that this is the
direction we're going, I wasstill like, I don't know, that
one just doesn't make sense tome.
And it seems like people don'tnecessarily agree fully on that.
So I don't know, do we have to?
But then I read um Brant Petrieon on that, and I was like, oh,

(52:43):
okay, well, that does it makereally, really good sense then.

SPEAKER_03 (52:46):
So well, you can like for me, some of the things
that I've come to even thinkdeeper about, especially if
you're doing this show, is like,look at look at the um the
versions of Christianity thatdon't believe in the perpetual
virginity of Mary versus theones that do.
So like if you have the Orthodoxand the Catholics, look at the
monastic life that gets bornfrom the belief in the perpetual

(53:09):
virginity.
Like you see virginity assomething holy and sacred.
So people take these vows ofcelibacy and to emulate our
lady, and these monasticcommunities are born from it.
And that's how we have the Biblewritten down through the ages
because these monks thentranscribe the scriptures, they
also transcribe all of the Greekmyths and all of ancient

(53:32):
literature is transcribed inthese monasteries because they
believed in the perpetualvirginity of Mary.
If it was just Protestantismthat got born from, you know, if
it was just the Bible, like wewouldn't have a Bible if it was
just left to Protestants.
The institution of the churchitself is so miraculous because
it gives birth to an entirecivilization and it's based in

(53:54):
these monasteries that are thatare writing down these books and
get passing these things down tothe next generation.
It's really amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (54:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, it was uh to yourquestion about the sermons, too.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It is just one of those thingswhere I to me, it's like, okay,
here's something that we couldembrace as Protestants, that the
first Protestants did embrace,and yet some it really, you

(54:25):
know, along the line, at somepoint it gets jettisoned and
people don't believe thatanymore.
And you see that on X andeverywhere else online.
It doesn't matter whether theyreformers believe that or not,
you know, they're wrong.
And yeah, but there's goodreasons for it.
And so that's you know, that wasa sermon.
Others, again, there might havebeen other things in there, but

(54:45):
on on the timeline of things, inlate August, early September,
all we really decided was it'stime to resign.
After it was announced to thecongregation in early October,
we really started talkingearnestly then about what's
next, because that had been alive question for me for a while

(55:06):
because I saw a what's next onthe horizon.
And but it needed to betogether, it needed to be an us
decision.
I didn't want it to become a Ididn't want to, I didn't want
our marriage to to be strainedwhen really all of this, all of
this trauma, all of this stuffthat we were going through that
I was going through, it reallybrought the two of us closer.

(55:28):
Yeah, um, one of the good thingsthat happened through that is
that our marriage really, reallygrew.
Um, it was through the crucibleof that we grew much closer.

SPEAKER_03 (55:39):
And I didn't want to jeopardize that by you know
trying to love is love is for insuffering, right?
Like so your wife sees thatyou're going through this
internal torment and she's Imean, man, you you really see
the value of the sacrament ofmarriage.
It's it's like you two really dobuild each other up and you and
you lead each other towardsheaven.

(56:00):
So so now this is October youannounced to to the
congregation.
Do you guys go through OCIA ordo you like how how do you go
about making the decision tobecome Catholic?

SPEAKER_01 (56:14):
We well, we're both uh voracious readers, and I had
already been reading a lot, andshe decided to um to kind of she
decided to look into some ofthese things for herself.
Um, and I think that one of thethings, one of the reasons why I
will give two reasons why shewas willing to do that.

(56:37):
The lesser reason is because sheum she saw changes in me, and
she couldn't give any otheraccount for it other than the
way that what I was reading andstudying the spirituality that I
was looking into was changingme.
And so I think I think my lifeand how it changed me was the

(57:01):
strongest apologetic that couldhave been offered to her, you
know.

SPEAKER_03 (57:05):
Same thing for me and my and my wife.

SPEAKER_02 (57:07):
I imagine, especially after a difficult
time like you were goingthrough.

SPEAKER_01 (57:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah, with with the COVIDthing, it's like one day in the
spring of 2020 I got angry aboutstuff at church and I stayed
angry for a year.
It was exhausting.
You know, there was alwayssomething, there was always a
fight, there was always aconflict, and so that that was
kind of how that went.
And it was just, yeah.
So yeah, that's what I the kindof thing I would do.

(57:33):
But you know, a lot of the a lotof the sharp edges kind of got
chiseled off during during thattime and and smoothed out, and
just in our relationship, too.
And so that was one thing.
I think that was one thing thatmade her willing to look into
something that she didn't wantto be interested in at all.
You know, the other thing was bythe time by the time her mother

(57:57):
is in hospice care, I'm farenough in my thinking where you
know, I'm becoming comfortablewith different things.
I've become convinced largely byHebrews 12 and the comparison
there of, you know, you've notcome to a mountain flaming with
fire, you know, Sinai, but youhave come to Mount Zion, to the

(58:20):
heavenly Jerusalem, to theFather, to the angels, to the
this, to the that, to the to thespirits of uh the righteous made
perfect.
And it's like, okay, so he'ssaying that by virtue of being
in Christ and worship, we are inthe presence of the Father and
the Son, and the angels and theOld Testament saints and the New

(58:42):
Testament saints, the spirits ofthe of the righteous made
perfect.

SPEAKER_03 (58:46):
Yeah, he he writes that in in the present, but you
are now you are now in it.
He's not talking about somefuture event, he's writing it
that you're in the present.

SPEAKER_01 (58:55):
Yeah, and really all of this stuff, you know, it it
really was the case that I wasgoing to have to be convinced by
scripture.
It's just how I was wired.
And I just I began to getconvinced of certain things, and
I could become convinced of onething and say, Well, I can be
convinced of this.
There's no way I'm gonna beCatholic, you know, but I'm

(59:15):
convinced of at least this.
And those things, you know,those dominoes gradually fell.
And by the time her mother wasin hospice care, um, and she
didn't go into life, uh, end oflife care right away.
But I'm at this point, I'mseeing what it's doing to her.
She's very faithful daughter,visiting her mom all the time,

(59:38):
you know.
And, you know, with dementia,you lose your your parent twice,
kind of a thing.
She's going through that.
Yeah, you know, it's it'stearing me up to see her going
through that.
And I just started praying,Mary, please be a mother to my
wife while she's losing herearthly mother.

(01:00:00):
And I think she got involved.
Beautiful prayer.
Yeah.
And and I think that um, yeah,and I'm starting to get broken
up a little bit, but I thinkthat was a big part of why she
became willing to look at what Ihad been looking at.
And it wasn't until, you know,again, after the announcement,

(01:00:21):
because I really didn'tunderstand where she was, she
didn't tell me.
I found out one time down theroad.
I said, We're talking, it'slike, how are we even having
this conversation?
And she's like, Well, it'spossible that I have my own
stash of books that you justdon't know about, you know.
So she's reading stuff.
I don't know what's even goingon in real life.
Um, but you know, when wereally, really, really can

(01:00:44):
finally talk openly about thisafter we know I have resigned,
I've announced it anyway, and westart to have the question of
what's next.
It was kind of one of my greatdelights to find out that this
was a a live possibility forher.
Yeah, so we started talkingabout it.
And I'm not gonna tell you thatit was like boom, we're in.

(01:01:05):
There were all kinds of, youknow, honestly, even up to the
weekend of Easter Vigil, we wehad these check-in moments, you
know, are we really doing this?
Yeah, you know, and it's not notout of doubt, but it's just such
a radical thing, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:20):
Um did did the um did the church scandals come
into play at all for you, or areyou just um yes and no?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:31):
Um well, scandals.
There's a lot I wasn't aware of.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:35):
I just mean like all the because it's very
contentious in the CatholicChurch right now.
You have Catholics criticizingthe Pope, and you know, there's
a lot of confusion coming out.
So, like, did that did that havea factor in you like any of the
resistance, or did you kind ofjust say, all right, well, all
families are messy?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:53):
Yeah, I mean it kind of like that, but you know,
again, because when you studyyour way into the Catholic
Church, some of that culturestuff that's going on, it's like
I it's not that it doesn'tmatter, but it's not part of
what's driving you to make adecision or come to a
conclusion.
So if you come to if you sohere's me on the Pope, Isaiah

(01:02:14):
22, the steward, okay, Shevna,Eliakim, keys of the house of
David, and all of that, thetypology and the prefigurement
of Jesus.
Matthew 16.
Yes, as soon as I see that andsee those connections, because
I've been into typology foryears, long before I ever even
looked at the Catholic.
Oh, really?

(01:02:34):
It's my jam, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:36):
Oh, I didn't know that.
So that oh man, you you musthave been in your wheelhouse
once you started seeing all theconnections.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:41):
Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%.
And it's like it's kind of like,you know, I've said before,
because scripture was socentral, it almost had to be
that way.
And it was when it all startedgoing, and looking back on it,
to me, it's kind of like, andthis would be you know, Bergsma
has a book called Stunned byScripture, How the Bible Made Me

(01:03:02):
Catholic.
I totally get what he means bythat title and subtitle.
Now, I wasn't aware it was doingthat to me for a long time, you
know.
Um, but seeing those things,seeing those connections and the
richness of it, I was primed forthat because that's the kind of
thing I liked to do.
My favorite things to do insermons were to tie in old and

(01:03:23):
new and show patterns andfulfillment.
That's what I almost alwaystried to do.
So I was just ready to see that.
But but once you see that, andonce you say, Okay, this is what
Jesus is doing with Peter,that's an office being
established.
At that point, it doesn't matterwhether there's problems with a
particular Pope or not, it'sjust Jesus established the

(01:03:44):
office.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:45):
So many modern evangelicals are missing out on
it's like they're missing out onso many prophecies that are
fulfilled just by the patternbeing fulfilled.
Like the pattern is laid out inthe old and then fulfilled in
the new.
They're missing out on the wholepoint of scripture.
It's like it's really it's sadwhen they when you see I'm I'm

(01:04:09):
definitely like talking veryspecifically about American
evangelicalism, where they takefive or six verses out of the
epistles and form an entiretheology on them and kind of
like write off everything elseand just kind of you know it's
it's like it's like the thingsthat are hard to understand,
they'll go, Well, that's justdifficult to understand.
The things that are easy tounderstand are the things that

(01:04:30):
you just know, and uh it's justthey're missing out on on so
much by not seeing the whole wayGod fills fulfills it throughout
the entire story.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:40):
So yeah, um, yeah, and and it's viewed as a
stretch.
If you see those patternssometimes, it's like that's not
a stretch, it's obvious, youknow, that that's what's going
on there.
I had I would kind of half joke,half not joke that my
hermeneutic for approachingscriptures and preaching was
when Jesus says you search thescriptures because you think in

(01:05:01):
them you have eternal life, butthese are the scriptures that
speak of me, and though.
So to me, if you're in the oldif Jesus is calling the Hebrew
scriptures the scriptures there.
So if you're in the oldtestament and you're not looking
for how they point ahead toJesus and the church and the new
covenant, you're not doing itright.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:17):
Can you imagine the conversation on the road to
Emmaus of Christ talking to theapostles and just showing them
all of the fulfillments from theold testament?
Like their hearts must have beenlike ready to explode.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:30):
It's one reason why I love the the Dewey Reams so
much is that in the OldTestament, anytime they would
use anointed or anointed one,Dewey Reams translates it as
Christ, so that you see the wordChrist over and over and over in
the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:46):
That's pretty much yeah, I didn't know that.
I've not read that version, soI'm I'm pretty much completely
unfamiliar with that with thattranslation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:54):
Um, so now we saw the story um the other day that
there were 17 Protestants thatgot got brought into the church
just recently.
Now, what role did you play inin their conversions?
How did that how did that werethese people that went to your
congregation?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:10):
Yeah, these were these are some of my closest
friends.
So our closest friends.
Um, and they all had been at myprevious church, yes.
They so when we when I resigned,it was official the announcement
anyway, and and we startedhaving these conversations.
We knew it didn't matter, itdidn't matter where we decided

(01:06:34):
to go.
Um, I knew number one, I knew atleast to start, we were not
going to go anywhere in myhometown because we're both too,
it's not like everybody knowsus, but people know us here.
Yeah, and I don't want to, Idon't want to be a distraction,
and I want to be able to justwalk into a church and worship.
And I also, I mean, I love thepeople at my former church.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:57):
Well, I got news for you.
You just came on the biggestCatholic show in the world, so
you're gonna be recognized atchurch now.
I got news for you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:03):
Oh, I didn't come on Keith's channel yet.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:06):
I'll tell you right now.
I very rarely get recognized atMass, except for now the people
that like I know because we'rein the same parish together.
You don't have to worry aboutthat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:16):
You guys have taken off, really.
It's it's it's been really funto watch you guys grow the way
you have.
I think you had like 5,000followers when I first found
you.
Maybe not easy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:24):
It is interesting to watch kind of how um like we're
getting asked to go speak atthings now, and I think people
are starting to pay attention alittle bit.
It's like it there's yeah, Idon't know.
It's like the the it the theburden of that is also kind of
weighing on me now.
So I've been talking to Rob alittle bit about it.
It's like, yeah, when you'rewhen you got 5,000 followers,

(01:07:44):
you can kind of shoot off themouth.
You can say whatever you want.
Now we're getting a little bitbigger.
It's like I have to probablyweigh what I'm saying a little
bit, and yeah, you're totallyrestrained now.
That's so um, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:58):
So now I forget what I was saying.
What was I just talking about?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:01):
Well, the 17 people you brought in everyone church.
How does that okay?
Well, are they do they see yourconversion and then start asking
you questions?
How did how's that interaction?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:10):
Yeah, so we my wife and I knew we one, even if we
had determined for sure whereare we going to go to church, we
knew it would be out of town,and we we knew that it was not
gonna be in the denominationthat I had been a part of.
Because if I show up there,everybody knows me too, and
they're gonna want me to preach.

(01:08:31):
And I don't want to.
I want to be able to wake up onSunday and just go to church and
have no responsibilities.
That's what I needed at thatpoint.
So we know we're gonna go out oftown somewhere.
Where are we gonna go?
We're still are we on the samepage, and so we just wouldn't
talk about it.
Excuse me.
We got a few questions betweenOctober and the end of the year,

(01:08:52):
and we didn't have a solidanswer for sure.
We had inclinations, but I don'tthink we had a solid answer, and
so we would just say, We know itwon't be in town, we don't want
to cause a disturbance, and wereally want to give our former
church a cushion of time beforethey have to start dealing with
hey, they're going to thischurch down the road or that
church down the road becausethis is our former pastor who

(01:09:15):
looked out for our souls for 10years and how they're and it
wasn't easy for any of us, itwasn't easy for any of us, and
it was a really nice send-off.
And I wanted to really kind ofnurture those relationships and
not cause undue strife or sorrowor hardship because it's not
easy to look for a new pastor,no one wants to be in that
situation.
I mean, if you liked yourpastor, I guess.

(01:09:37):
But um, so I just wanted to kindof honor them in that way too.
And so that that was kind of ourmindset.
But after the new year, by thetime the new year comes around,
and now it's we got to make adecision, what are we going to
do?
Because it's not like we're notgoing to go to church somewhere,
yeah.
And so we stuck with theout-of-town plan.

(01:09:58):
We were driving about an hourand 20 minutes to go over to
Cedar Rapids, um, the priestthat I'd been introduced to
years before.
And we ended up splitting ourtime a little bit with another
city, Des Moines, which was alittle closer to us, um, and
going different places there.

(01:10:18):
But we did come to a point wherewe were really praying and
talking and checking in witheach other.
Do we feel like we are free toeven say what we're doing right
now with when people ask us?
Because and none of it is out ofyou know embarrassment or
anything like that, but it's outof really wanting to continue to
honor them and not cause, youknow, divisions just not cause

(01:10:42):
division and confusion andstrife, and yeah, and just we
didn't want to hurt anybody, youknow, right?
And um, but we felt like okay,you know, here's the thing.
I guess our fleece was this.
If someone asks us, because nowwe'd gone through a time where
nobody was asking us for awhile, and I don't know exactly
why, but it was fine, it wasactually good for us um to have

(01:11:03):
that that time of not having toanswer that question.
But after the new year, shortlyafter the new year, I think we
decided, okay, we feel like wefeel like God is telling us it's
okay now, but we weren't gonnabe out all, hey everybody, guess
what?
Because that's gonna causetrouble.
And so uh when you're such aMidwesterner, it's so funny.

(01:11:24):
I know 100%, 100%.
I guess you know, it's yeah,it's so weird.
Um, I mean, I think it's good.
I I know what our intentionswere.
You know, I've said, is there isare there things that we could
have done better?
The answer is yes, it has to beyes, but is there anything I
would have done differently?

(01:11:44):
I'm not sure there was because Iknow what my motives were.
My motives were to not hurtpeople that I had been caring
for for 15 years.
But when questions startedcoming, we decided we would go
ahead and answer.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:58):
And you weren't a gaslight, so so you won't lie if
somebody asks you, but you'renot gonna go out of your way to
cause any garbage by doing it onyour own.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:06):
Yeah, we didn't want to make a big thing out of it.
We wanted to just quietly go theroute we wanted to go and not
cause a bunch of trouble forpeople, and certainly not for
our the my former church.
So when friends would ask, wewould tell them, and you know,
objections, questions, whatabout, what about, what about?
And some of the conversationswere not pleasant.

(01:12:27):
Um, there were some, I'm notsure I had many that were that
way.
I know she did.
Um I don't know, maybe I'veblocked that or something, but
but you know, there werequestions, there were
objections, but we gave ourreasons, and you know, people
would process it in differentways.

(01:12:48):
And in every case, well, as asthey started to look through it,
with I'm talking about these 17now.
Um, which in the 17, by the way,it's really four couples and a
bunch of kids, is who that is.
So um they would process ouranswers, they'd look at
different stuff, they might comeback with more objections and

(01:13:11):
that, but over time we just kindof said, Look, this is this is
the thing.
We'll talk to you guys aboutanything you want to know.
We weren't actively trying to,you know, hey, you got to
evangelize them and bring theminto the church.
No, because I didn't Midwestern,I didn't want to hurt the
church.
That's not what I wanted to do.
But the thing is, the HolySpirit moved, you know, and um

(01:13:35):
and and honestly, lest it seemas though you know it's it's all
about how persuasive we were, Ithink in every case there was
already there were alreadythings going on, just as there
were in our story, there wasalready groundwork being laid in
different ways for all of thesedifferent couples.
We only learned that as wetalked a little bit more, but in

(01:13:57):
the end, um we kind of saw thatthere was an interest, at least
there was a there was asoftening of the view toward,
and no one was really an anti-Idon't think anybody was super
anti-Catholic.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:10):
In fact, I know they weren't, and I wasn't that kind
of because that's not that's notalways the case, right?
So they didn't have they didn'thave a ton of bias against
Catholics to start off then, andI wasn't that kind of a pastor
either.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:21):
By the time I became a pastor, I was out of my cage
stage, you know, and and I wasout of my anti, I wasn't really
an anti-Catholic.
I I had them, but I wasn'tanymore, so that's not what they
got from me from the pulpit.
So, you know, we we had ourconversations, we kind of
thought it was possible, butthere were things going on in
their lives that we didn't evenreally know about.

(01:14:42):
Uh and individually, this couplehad this thing going on, this
couple had that thing going on,and it was it was around Easter
this year that all of a suddendominoes just started falling,
and um yeah, so they not all atthe same time, but they all made
the same decision, um,independently of of one another,

(01:15:05):
but all kind of right around thesame time, too.
Um, with yeah, one one couplemaybe a little bit later, but
they all started OCIA at thesame time.
They all ended up uh leaving myold church, coming to the
Catholic church in my hometown.
And when that happened, whenthat went down, that's when we
decided we would start then.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:25):
You felt comfortable going to one of your hometown.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:28):
Cats out of the bag, yeah.
What now at this point itdoesn't matter?

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:32):
Not just that.
Have have you guys struck up aspiritual kinship with these
with these other families nowthat you guys have because look,
you guys are in the midwest, notthat many Catholics everywhere,
right?
It's a small, small town, it'sprobably mainly Protestant.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:45):
Oh, yeah, it's it's mainly Protestant.
Um, I mean, we were alreadyreally, really, really good
friends anyway.
This has only added you know alayer to that.
It it's a great layer, but yeah,we've got we have we just have
another thing in common rightnow, which is it's a phenomenal
thing to have in common.
But so they went through OCIAtogether, and so we sponsored um

(01:16:09):
I sponsored two of the men andtwo children, so four total.
She sponsored two of the womenand and one child, and then
others like so 17 people.
That number is there was onechild who was a little too young
to be confirmed, but he cameinto the church with his

(01:16:31):
parents.
So I'm counting he's number 17.
But two of the men who werestanding behind, if you've seen
that video that got posted on X,two of them that are standing
behind as sponsors, theyactually reverted in this
process.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:44):
Oh, they were clear Catholics and they and they
reverted.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:47):
So the number is actually 19.
19.
Um, yeah, so but they revertedand then they sponsored their
wives, which is really cool.
And you know, and there were afew other sponsors um mixed in
their family members and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:58):
But yeah, it is it is amazing when you when you see
how God's grace works, man.
Like it's like especially ifyou're caught up in the tedious
politics of like what'shappening in the church and
stuff.
But when it comes down to it,like you fall in love with the
Catholic faith, God justcaptures your heart, and you
just need the sacraments, and ithe just draws people to him

(01:17:18):
constantly, regardless of whatwe think is happening all around
us.
It's like God is God's spiritreally is always moving and and
pulling people towards hischurch.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:27):
Yeah, yeah, that was our experience.
We we we weren't looking forthis, but uh troublemakers like
you guys probably have um howhow old are your children,
Aaron?
Uh I have six, and my oldest isalmost 29, and my youngest is
17.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:44):
Okay, so now they're all adults at this point, so
they you can't like drag themin.
So have you spoken to them aboutthis?
Because this is a pretty rapidthing that happened.
I mean, yeah, you were a yearand a half ago, you were a
Protestant pastor, and now youand your wife come into the
church.
How have the conversations withyour kids been going?

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:01):
You know, uh, for the most part, good.
Um it hasn't been all smooth,but the by the time you know, in
in all of this, three three ofthem aren't even at home
anymore, they're off in theirown careers.
And the three that are home, umdifferent circumstances, but
they're all working.
My youngest is in school.

(01:18:22):
Still, even though he'stechnically a minor, we couldn't
just say, here's the deal, thisis what you're doing.
But the youngest two came withus.
Oh wow, we gave them the wetalked about it.
Here's what we're doing, andhere's why.
And yeah, it's weird when you'rea Protestant doing this.
It's even weirder when you're aProtestant pastor, or you were
anyway, and you're doing this.
But we just talked about it, andthe youngest two came in with us

(01:18:45):
at Easter at the Easter Vigil.
Um, the other of the other four,you know, they're at different
places.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:52):
Yeah, they're just adults.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:53):
Yeah, they're just different places.
Although my oldest, I I I Iactually talked to him and I got
his, I asked him, I thoughtsomething like this might come
up.
If it does, and he said, Yeah, Idon't care, it's fine.
You can you can say it.
So my oldest is gonna start OCIAat Oh my goodness, that's
amazing.
Where he is, um, he lives in adifferent city, and he's he's

(01:19:15):
going to a parish over there,and he's gonna start there.
And I also have permission tosay that Cammy's brother and his
wife have just started OCI andshe's reverting.
And so there's there's a lotgoing on, and there's still
other conversations I've hadtoo.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:32):
So Aaron, you uh you uh you are going to all right.
So now the thing I would I dowant to talk to you about is the
that instinct to like kind ofstay out of the spotlight um
when you like when you firstleft that that that church and
like kind of like go away.
Like because basically you gofrom being a professional
Christian, like a as a pastor,right?

(01:19:53):
You're a professional Christian.
So I think like most pastorsthat become Catholic have to
then face the the the question,do I want to be a professional
Catholic?
That that could mean being anauthor or preaching or just
teaching a Catholic because thethe desire is there for every
Protestant who converts, liketheir heart's on fire.
You're like, you know, you coulddo the preaching thing, you know

(01:20:14):
you're pretty good, you might bea good writer.
So you do have to wrestle withdo you want to become a
professional Catholic?
I mean, Keith Nestor did it.
I I've heard like because I usedto watch The Journey Home every
week when Marcus Grode was doingit, and it's like you see all
these Protestant pastors thencome in and just choose to be a
professional Catholic at thatpoint.
Like, have you wrestled withthat idea at all?
Like, what are you doing forwork now?

(01:20:35):
What you what's your plan?

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:38):
Yeah, um, I I did wrestle with it for work,
nothing currently.
We knew that I wanted to take weboth wanted me to take three
months and do nothing and justbreathe again, you know, and and
just kind of be a couple againand try to come out of the
turmoil together.
And that was good.
Um, but three months became sixmonths, and I started getting

(01:20:59):
really antsy in there.
And and I looked at differentthings.
I'd done a couple of interviews,I really started getting like, I
gotta get something.
This is just not right.
I need to, I need to dosomething.
And we, you know, we're we'reliving on savings, there's only
money going out right now.
But again, Midwest cost ofliving isn't that high here.
We you know, we're okay for awhile, you know.

(01:21:22):
This is a decision we made thatwe didn't plan on depleting
savings, but it's a decision wemade that we're willing to if
waiting on the Lord means that'swhat we're gonna do.
So that's what I've been doing.
And early on, you know, becauseI know all the things you're
saying, I'm aware of that.
And to some degree, yeah,there's the draw of you know,

(01:21:42):
who will want to talk to me?

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:44):
You know, I wanted to, but no, but but this this is
early on, and I detected this inmyself, and I was like, no, no,
that is not why that is not atall the thing, and so I remember
look that it is a lucrativething to go from being a
Protestant to a Catholic if thenyou get into Catholic media of

(01:22:05):
some kind.
So yeah, well, temptationsthere.
Um I and I wouldn't blame youfor doing it.
I I most of most of the Catholicapologists you see are converts,
yeah.
And it's because they had thatthat deep love for Christ, they
have a deep love for scripture,and then when the when the
pieces connect, it's like theyjust have to tell everybody
about it because they're onfire.

(01:22:26):
It's I mean, it really is like aPentecost that happens to them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:28):
So the dangerous thing about that is that if
that's what you want beforeyou're Catholic, then you run
the risk of becoming Catholicfor the wrong reasons.
Yeah, yeah.
I didn't I didn't becomeCatholic for a vocation, for for
work, you know.
Um, so that that's a thing to beaware of.
And and I became I became awarethat I was started, I my mind

(01:22:50):
started going in that direction.
I just stopped, and I I rememberpraying to the Lord.
I was getting ready one day forwhatever, getting ready for the
day, and I remember justpraying, God, I am ready to be
nobody.
Yeah, you know, you lead me inthe way I need to go, but I'm
fine being nobody, I'm fine notbeing important, you know.
And because when you're apastor, it's not like it's a

(01:23:11):
prideful thing, but you'reimportant in a lot of ways.
But those ways were exhaustingme.
And and so I was fine not beingthat anymore, but I knew I
wanted time, you know.
Rob, you've posted thingsbefore, and you're right, you
know, where someone will saysomething and given their whole
big diatribe, and you'll belike, You've been Catholic for
six and a half minutes, youknow.
Maybe just take a back seat fora little bit.

(01:23:34):
Yeah, I'll definitely so truethough.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:36):
Yeah, I'll definitely say, like, stay out
of church politics, like stayout of liturgical debates when
you first come into church, justbe Catholic.
Yeah, just like just soak inbeing Catholic, learn the
culture, like because there'ssomething so beautiful about
being Catholic, and you and youneed to experience it for a
period of time before youbecause there's look there, you

(01:23:57):
definitely have an in-depthunderstanding of scripture and
typology that you can share withpeople.
So there there is a value inthat.
But like you said, like I thinkI think it's good for a convert
to come.
I'm not telling you what to do,but I do think it's good for a
convert to come in and just likebe Catholic for a little bit and
like experience it.
And that that's why Keith wrotethat book, right?

(01:24:18):
He wrote the the the book onlike like uh the like Catholic,
what was the book he wrote?
Um, like like once we becomeCatholic now, what?
Yeah, convert God, right?
Like because it is kind of weirdwhen you come in, it's like
bizarre.
We got like you know, feast daysand we got like devotionals.
Well, have uh have you and yourwife uh fallen in love with a
particular saint yet, or haveyou haven't gotten that deep

(01:24:39):
yet?
Have you gotten into the Pokemoncards of Catholicism yet?

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:44):
I hate it that I know what you're talking about
there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:47):
You are far you are online way too much.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:49):
Well, except is he talking about Fuentes or Carlos?
Yeah, yeah.
Fuentes called devotionals, likea Pokemon card.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:56):
Um, you know, it is it's it's a lot.
My goodness, it's a lot, and itit's it can be overwhelming.
Um, yes, there are saints thathave been particularly their
stories have been particularlymeaningful, and um, you know,
her my wife's confirmation saintwas Saint Monica.
Um, and you know, praying forher son, and you know, her heart

(01:25:20):
for child, her heart for ourchildren, her heart for other
people's children.
Saint Francis de Sales was mine.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:26):
Um the the only saint that's absolutely
necessary for a Catholic is OurLady, right?
Like she is absolutelynecessary.
Like you you need to have arelationship with Our Lady.
I'm not saying like I don't careif it's in doctrine or whatever,
I'm not gonna argue with JimmyAiken's position.
I'm telling you, if you are aCatholic, you need to have a
deep relationship with Our Ladybecause she will save you at the

(01:25:48):
most difficult periods of yourlife.
Like she will be there to saveyou in those periods.
So even if you don't go thatdeep into different saints and
stuff, just I would, I would, Iwould say, especially as an
early uh new Catholic, justdevelop that devotion to Our
Lady and she'll lead you wherewhere she's going to lead you.
But like we did uh we did a showon um uh on the um uh what the

(01:26:11):
heck did we do it the other daywith Ryan Grant?
Um Lopanto.
Lopanto and I learned about St.
Pius, St.
Pope Pius V, and I never reallyread about St.
Pope Pius V, but like I fell inlove with him when I started
like he was so courageous andbrave, and that's kind of how
you come across the saints.
It's like you don't have toforce them down your throat,
like something will happen.
Um it'll be like a saint's feastday, and you'll go, oh let me

(01:26:34):
let me read into that scene alittle bit, and you'll just
develop a kinship with them andyou'll you'll ask for their
intercession here and there, youknow, and then all of a sudden
you fall in love with them.
And that's I I think it's suchan important part of being
Catholic is that God wants us tolove our older siblings, He
wants us to really understandthat we are the communion of
saints, so He will grant youlittle favors when you when you

(01:26:55):
fall in love with an oldersibling to let you know that
that connection is very real.
Like my my mom has such a deepconnection to um Saint Saint
Teresa the uh the little flowerTherese.
Um, yeah, Saint Therese theLittle Flower.
And whenever my mom prays anovena to her, she gets roses at
the end of the novena, likeevery time.
So, I mean, I I know people thathave done that and they don't

(01:27:17):
get roses.
My mom gets roses every time, soit's just something that'll kind
of naturally happen, I think.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:22):
But yeah, 1800 flowers must love your mom.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:28):
Yeah, when you study your way in, you know, it's one
that you can come in and know alot of doctrines and know a lot
of arguments and stuff likethat.
But boy, there's a culture thatis just it's a different
language, it's a differentculture.
It's like being uprooted in adifferent continent, in a you
know, with different customs anddifferent ways of doing things.
So it takes time and it and itit's it's a process.

(01:27:50):
You're absolutely right aboutthat.
There are some things, maybe inthe hopper for me.
Um some different throughdifferent conversations I had
with different people.
Um I started getting the ideafor a book and I set it aside.
I kept pushing it back because Ifeel like I need to stay in my
lane.
I'm not, you know, on somedegree, I have some expertise in

(01:28:14):
what I once what I was as apastor.
I don't have expertise inCatholic theology.
I just don't.
I read a lot of stuff, maybe Iknow a lot of stuff, but that
doesn't make me an expert.
And but the direction that itwas going was people wanting to
be able to have conversationswith Protestant friends and
family the way that I sometimesdo, you know, and some of the

(01:28:38):
what about these connections?
Which ones?
What's what is it again forMatthew 16?
What's that?
And so I thought, well, that Ican do, I can think like a
Protestant.
I know how Protestants think,and I know what tends to be
persuasive from the scriptures,not for everybody, it's not a
silver bullet, right?
The Holy Spirit has to be atwork for sure.
But so I started working on,I'll just call it a manuscript

(01:29:02):
because it feels presumptuous tocall it a book.
But I have it almost done.
I've had a bunch of people readit, it's been really good
feedback.
The last one I need to hear fromis a priest who's my spiritual
director, and um, I meet withhim next week.
And if he gives me the doctrinalgreen light, then I may, then I
guess I have to make a decision.
Do I want to try toself-publish?

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:23):
If you are going to put a book out, you let us know.
You will come on, we will helppromote that book, we will help
you sell it.
Like, especially because you'rein this interim where you don't
know what you're doing with yourcareer and you're not working
right now.
Like, we we're going to be thereto assist you.
Like, all your we're gonna we'regonna be a family to to our
brother, and we will if you ifyou need us to set like we'll

(01:29:43):
talk privately, but if you needme to set something up to help
you guys get through until youfigure things out, we'll we'll
help you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:48):
Well, that didn't like I have the email for the
president of Tan.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:51):
If you that's the thing, you're you're in a very
fortunate position where you doknow like a lot of professional
Catholics who know a lot ofpeople.

SPEAKER_02 (01:29:58):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Keith is the professional, notus.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:01):
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not I'm not talking aboutus.
I'm talking about Keith.
Like, I'm I like all right.
We do have to get off because wehave another show.
We're go we're all right.
So Rob and I are going to be onthe rundown in about 15 minutes.
Um, I told him we'd be there at9:45, so we do have to wrap this
up, but man, I can start jumpinginto like Catholicism now,

(01:30:22):
right?
Now so Aaron, maybe we'll getyou back on post-conversion.
We won't talk about yourconversion, we'll just talk
about Catholicism.
And maybe we'll do maybe we'llget Keith on too.
We'll talk the three of us,yeah.
The four of us will get on, andwe'll just have we'll have a
conversation with the four of usand we'll just talk about
Catholicism.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:37):
Is there anything you have to promote?
And if not, is there any prayerrequests you'd like everyone to
pray for?

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:44):
You know, um prayer.
Let me start with a prayerrequest briefly, uh a big verse
for you know, here's myProtestant thing.
You know, you have a versethat's uh that's a big deal, and
you kind of go back to Exodus14, 14, the Lord will fight for
you, you need only be still, youknow, when Israel's at the Red
Sea.
Huge verse in our story, in thewhole process of our story.

(01:31:06):
When I was feeling antsy aboutwork, uh I prayed, Lord, I need
you to if if the silence in thewaiting is the answer and I just
need to go do something, thenI'm dumb enough that you need to
tell me that.
I need to know if I'm justsupposed to go do something or
if I'm still supposed to wait.
I don't look at the massreadings beforehand.

(01:31:26):
We went to daily mass the nextmorning, and the reading is from
the first reading is from Exodus14.
And I I look over at her doesthat, right?
Yeah, and it's like, and yeah,it culminates, it goes one verse
past that, but yeah, right up tothat.
The Lord will fight for you, youneed only be still.
So just the prayer is I we are100% confident that that's what

(01:31:48):
God is doing right now.
He has us waiting, he gives ussomething to do, and he gives us
just enough to say, here's thenext thing.
But we don't see a lot furtherthan that, and that's part of
the training that he's givingus, I think.
And so just to just honestlyjust pray that we will continue
to discern, you know, to discernhis will and not try to run
ahead of what he wants to do.
Because that's my I'm verya-type, she's very a-type.

(01:32:11):
We want to take control and takecharge and do things, and that's
just not what we're supposed todo right now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:17):
And uh yeah, trusting in God's providence is
one of the hardest parts ofbeing a Catholic.
Like you just kind of have toaccept his will and trust that
he has your your your your yourholy like your your
sanctification in mind when whenhe's doing things.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:31):
So um one the other thing to answer the part of your
question, I did start a substack which gradually will tell
some of this story in differentways.
It's just my name or the the atis Aaron Gorn or my is it linked
to your Twitter?
You know, I don't know.
I don't remember.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:50):
Put your sub stack in your Twitter handle and I'll
I'll retweet that.
And you have a link to it, bro.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32:55):
I have the link to no, that's right.
I I did not do that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:58):
I know I know that I need to do that, but I come on,
I gotta teach you guys how to dosocial media.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:02):
You guys have got I don't know anything.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:06):
We'll talk, we'll talk off air, but I will help
you with anything that I can ifyou're gonna start doing
anything like this.
So, guys, go subscribe toAaron's Substack.
Um, uh we may we me and Rob willtalk off air.
We may put a little somethingtogether for Aaron to help him
get through through this littleinterregnum period while while
he's up in the air about wherehe's going.
But Aaron, we we uh I've enjoyedmy interactions with you for two

(01:33:30):
years now.
Like, genuinely, we you and Iare friends, like we've changed
mutual, it's very mutual.
We exchanged numbers well, waybefore you became Catholic, and
we've we've you sent me a DVD.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:41):
Yes.
Why did you play Catholictrivia?
Well, I did and I sucked at it,but but you still said you still
gave me the prize anyway.
It was funny.
Well, no, no, no, no.
I don't think it was when youhappened to bring one back, you
know.
Oh still a long time ago.
It was still a long time ago,but you yeah, you said, Well, I

(01:34:03):
want to send Aaron this DVD, sothat that it goes back to at
least that point.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:08):
Um, Keith, if you're open to that, I would maybe
we'll get the four of ustogether.
And I said three because there'sthree people on screen and my
tire, guys.
No, he was excluding me.
Wasn't excluding.
We'll we'll we'll we'll now thatwe're past the conversion story,
I'd like to get both of you onand we'll just talk about what
what it's like to be Catholic,and you know, we'll we'll have a

(01:34:29):
fun episode.
So um, all right, guys, we'regonna fly.
Go subscribe to Aaron Substack.
Yep, and anybody that wants tocontinue the conversation with
Rob and I, we're going over tolive chat.
Rob put the link up.
Thank you so much, Aaron.
Yeah, thank you so much forcoming on with us tonight.
I would I'm I'm sorry we leftbecause I would have I I could
have talked to you for anotherhour and a half.

SPEAKER_01 (01:34:49):
It's all right.
It's all right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:51):
Um, yeah, we'll set up another show.
Aaron, welcome home.
I know that's the cliche thingto say, but you are now part of
the most dysfunctional family inhistory, and we are glad to have
you as a brother.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:01):
Uh the feeling is mutual.
Love you guys.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:04):
Love you too, man.
All right, take us out, Rob.
See ya.

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