June 27, 2025 • 47 mins
What if the wounds that have caused you the most suffering actually contain the intelligence needed for your deepest healing? In this soul-stirring conversation, spiritual author Michael Stone invites us to radically reimagine trauma not as brokenness to overcome, but as sacred adaptation carrying wisdom needed for our evolution.
Drawing from his extraordinary life journey – born between atomic bombs to parents traumatized at Pearl Harbor, discovering his mother's suicide as a toddler, and enduring decades of suspicion following his wife's murder – Michael embodies the possibility of transforming devastating circumstances into profound spiritual awakening. With refreshing clarity, he dismantles conventional understandings of trauma, revealing it as "an intelligence that's been evolving for millions of years" designed to protect us in overwhelming situations.
The conversation explores Michael's powerful integration model: presencing (stopping, softening, slowing down), witnessing (raising awareness resolution), and embracing (welcoming whatever arises as a teacher). Through vivid examples from childhood development to intimate relationships, he illuminates how unintegrated past becomes destiny, repeating patterns until we create space for healing. You'll discover why traditional therapy often fails with trauma (it lives in the body, not cognition), how relationships trigger precisely the wounds needing healing, and why four-dimensional communication transforms our capacity for connection.
Most powerfully, Michael reveals how personal healing work ripples outward to heal collective and ancestral trauma. As he approaches his 80th birthday, his medicine for the world becomes clear: by doing our own shadow work, we expand our capacity to hold life's complexity and address the traumatic roots underlying our greatest societal challenges. Connect with Michael at welloflight.com to explore his courses, newsletter, or his transformative book "Traumatized: A Love Story."
Michael's contact details: https://www.welloflight.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, I'm your host, the Gentle Yoga
Warrior, and this is AwakenedConscious Conversations podcast,
and shortly joining us at abright and early 6am in
California will be the wonderfulMichael Stone, and I'm deeply
honoured to have Michael on theshow.
Michael has had quite a journey, to say the least.
(00:23):
He was born between the twoatom bombs.
His parents were in PearlHarbor and, traumatized from
that, sadly, his mother took herown life and he had the shadow
of people thinking that he hadmurdered his wife for a long
(00:43):
time, only recently, in 2023,being fully cleared by DNA
evidence, and I suspect Michaelcould have chosen a path of
feeling sorry for himself andalso a path of feeling a victim.
But from what I've read in hisbook so far and the stuff that
I've seen about Michael, hedecided to completely change his
(01:08):
life around.
We will learn more in, moreelegantly put by Michael, I'm
sure, because it's his lifeexperience, he's going to
explain it the best.
But I did some research onMichael and Michael Stone is a
spiritual author.
His recent book Traumatize aLove Story by Michael Stone.
(01:31):
I have had the grace to readabout a quarter of it before
this interview and I must say Icannot put it down.
The way he writes makes me feelthat I'm understood and even
though our life stories weredifferent, I can completely
relate to the mother wound andthe father wound and I
particularly like the way hereflects after each chapter and
(01:57):
how he's learned from his life'sexperience.
On reflection, he did variousthings to kind of navigate
through this difficult terrainto become the great spiritual
teacher, leader and source ofinspiration that he is now.
And I'm deeply, deeplyappreciative of this 6am start.
(02:18):
It can't be easy to get upearly, even if you're an early
riser.
And get up and do a podcast atsix in the morning just goes to
show that he's willing to puthimself out to kind of mix in
with um the time zones here.
So I really appreciate theeffort that has been put into
that.
So shortly we're going to betalking about rethink trauma as
(02:40):
a sacred adaption.
So, dear dear listeners, aspromised, here is the wonderful
Michael Stone kindly joining usat 6am from California, usa.
So welcome to the show, michael.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Thank you, it's good to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
It's an honor to have you on the show today and I had
the joy of reading some of yourwonderful book Traumatized, a
love story by Michael Stone andI get to read a lot of books
over over the years, but withyours I just couldn't put it
down because in so many ways Icould even though your story is
different to mine, because we'veall got our unique paths I
(03:19):
could really relate to a lot ofthe stuff that you had in it and
I just found it to a lot of thestuff that you had in it and I
just found it.
If ever there was an example ofsomeone who have kind of taken
the um, the coarseness anddifficulties of one's life and
kind of used it as likefertilizer for life, to kind of
to to lead this deeply spirituallife, it is yourself.
(03:43):
um I I thought we would talktoday about rethinking trauma,
because trauma is something wehear a lot about these days, but
I think the way that younavigated it, presented it and
your understanding is going tobe of deep benefit for our
listeners.
Firstly, michael, would youmind sharing a bit of your
(04:03):
backstory so far and what'sinspired?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
you sure I have to say, uh, so many people say the
same thing that, even though itwas my story that they uh can
really relate in their own lifeand that was really part of the
purpose I?
Um, just to start with, uh, Ihad two purposes.
One was my own healing.
I've been dealing with trauma,teaching about trauma, talking
(04:34):
about trauma, integration, formany, many years, and I love
doing this, working with people.
So the first reason was for myown healing, though the second
was that we don't realize thatwe're all traumatized.
You know, I'm sure some of yourlisteners are probably saying
(04:54):
I'm not traumatized, I had awonderful, happy childhood.
Well, yeah, but when we lookunder which we will under the
covers, we'll see that we're alltraumatized.
We will, under the covers,we'll see that we're all
traumatized.
If it isn't individual, it'srelational, familial, collective
(05:16):
, ancestral, geographic,historic.
It's, you know, and it's at theheart of all the issues in the
world.
So I'm this is, you know, I'mturning 80 next month and this
is kind of my focus right nowand my medicine for the world,
in a way.
And so you ask, what is trauma?
So it's probably the mostmisunderstood thing on the
(05:39):
planet, because we think oftrauma as an illness, a
pathology, a brokenness,something we want to get rid of,
right?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
But in reality, trauma is an amazing
intelligence that's beenevolving for millions of years
really, and its intelligence isto protect us in overwhelming
situations.
So there are many kinds oftrauma, but the most important
thing to realize at first isthat it's not something to get
(06:11):
rid of.
It's something that's wantingto teach you how to be whole.
I think that's really animportant distinction to make.
The other thing that'simportant to know about trauma
is it's not the thing thathappened.
To know about trauma is it'snot the thing that happened.
It's what happened in us whenthe thing happened, whatever
that thing was.
And that's really important,because if it was the thing that
(06:32):
happened, we could neverintegrate and heal it.
So you, we have to, like,understand that this is an
intelligence in our body that ifwe can tap into not try to get
rid of it, you know, but toreally embrace it.
And I'll talk, we'll talk moreabout that.
What happens?
Just a couple of things.
What happens?
(06:53):
There is a number of symptomsthat you know that you have
trauma.
One of them is a sense ofseparation, a separate self.
Now you know, you're over here,jane, in London right now, and
I'm here in California and itlooks like well, that's a long
(07:14):
distance, you're far away, butI'm seeing you.
And one way of knowing personis I'm seeing this person that
I'm with over here.
But another way I think that'sreally important to see, and how
we see another person isactually you show up in my
nervous system and I'm showingup in your nervous system.
(07:34):
There is no distance reallybetween us.
That my capacity to know you isexactly related to the
circumference of my capacity tofeel myself.
So if I'm able to feel you,then we do a thing in my work
(07:56):
feeling myself, feeling you,feeling me and the space between
us, because that allows us totune in.
The other thing about traumathat's really important to
recognize this is not acognitive illness and
traditional therapy will notintegrate trauma.
It's somatic, it's the body,it's the emotions.
(08:19):
So we have to be able to allowourselves.
But what happens with trauma isit either becomes a numbing of
our body.
It's not a numbness, it's anumbing.
It's like your refrigerator'splugged in and it's keeping
things cool.
Numbing is plugged in.
(08:39):
It's a verb, not a noun, andtensing is part of the process.
So we're really numbing andtensing as a result of the
unintegrated past that we'recarrying in our bodies.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So that's a quick overview that's really
refreshing to hear it put likethat, because we're always
taught or I seem to see is thattrauma is a bad thing and that
we it's.
It's somehow kind of a weakness.
But, like you said, we've allgot trauma to to some degree and
and trauma healing is anevolutionary path.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Your show is about consciousness.
Trauma is the thing to focus onthe shadow.
If we're looking for spiritualattainment, you know we look at
spiritual awakening as a placeto get to.
There's no place to get to,it's all right here, right now.
Material, you know what Jungcalled the shadow material?
(09:48):
It's really the things that wedon't want to feel, the things
that we don't want to look at,and certainly the things we
don't want somebody else rightto know.
Oh my god, they knew that aboutme.
They think I was really up,whatever, and so.
But working with a shadow,inner work, is what gives us a
greater capacity to hold life,and so when we can do that, then
(10:12):
we are.
Every time we break a habit,whether it's a habit like
smoking or eating or anydisorder habits are crystallized
structures in our body, andevery time we change a habit, we
make an evolutionary moveforward as towards our wholeness
(10:36):
and the potential of the humanspecies.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I've had that experience myself in few things
and the awareness isn't it tokind of know, um, how we can
change the habit and things likethis?
In your wonderful book it's,you had a quote by dr peter a
levin who says the paradox oftrauma is that it has both the
power to destroy and the powerto transform and resurrect.
(11:03):
So I guess that leads on a bitfrom what you, what you were
saying, where we kind of canchange, like these habits, and,
for us, change our ourselves.
So I guess, um, what I'm tryingto get to is the.
The trauma is a gift in manyways, but I guess it's how we
(11:24):
approach it.
We can either let it be, um,destroy us, or see it as a way
to improve ourselves.
And if I'm a listener and I'mlistening and thinking, oh yes,
I'd like to go the improvemyself way, how would, how would
I approach that through your,your methods?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
yeah, that's a good question and it's, of course, a
huge question.
Uh, I do, uh, online, uh workwith people, um, but my favorite
thing to do is groups.
I also do online groups, but Ido private groups, and the
reason I do it that way is wewere wounded in relationship and
(12:03):
so it always made sense to methat healing is a relational
issue.
So let's go back to earlychildhood development.
How do we learn toself-regulate, to be able to
walk in the world, have ouremotions with people fully?
(12:26):
How do we learn toself-regulate ourself?
You only learn to self-regulatethrough co-regulation.
So you learn to co-regulatewith a caring witness, a mother,
a parent, uh, a caring witness,you know, however, that was a
foster mother, would or parent.
(12:47):
So what happens is in earlydevelopment, if we aren't felt,
seen, held, heard and protected,we're going to be traumatized,
and there are different kinds,and I won't get into all the
different kinds of of impactthat has, but, um, and it's very
(13:08):
subtle.
Let me give you an example.
Let's say, uh, I'm a toddler.
Now, how do we learn?
We learn with curiosity.
We go out, we go, oh, look atthis, and I get curious and
maybe I'm interested in the dog,and the dog barks and I run
back and I say mommy, mommy, I'mmommy, I'm scared, the dog's
(13:30):
gonna eat me.
And mommy says oh, there'snothing to be scared about,
sweetheart, yeah, I, I'm reallybusy now.
Go on and play, don't be scared, grow up, grow up, you know.
And that's one example.
Well, that's a traumatizingevent.
Why is that a traumatizingevent?
Because an emotional questionwas answered with a cognitive
(13:55):
response.
The child is left then feelingI'm not supposed to be scared.
My mommy says I'm not supposedto be scared, but I am scared,
something's wrong.
And we never say something'swrong with my mommy.
We say something's wrong withme.
And that becomes an adaptation.
Then that I have to adapt tothis break in my relatedness.
(14:26):
Let's say and this is, I justswitch genders all the time when
I say this same same situationand the child goes out, the dog
barks, comes running back, daddy, daddy, daddy, I'm scared, the
dog's gonna eat me.
And daddy says come here,sweetheart, come here.
Do you know what?
I get scared sometimes too, andit's okay to be scared and I
love you so much.
And the toddler goes, oh, andgoes and plays with the dog.
(14:48):
Now, that is a reaffirmingsense of self.
So now I've learned that, oh,it's OK to be scared, I don't
have to push it down, I don'thave to go fast and keep busy
and keep running, so I don'thave to feel those things
because it's okay to be afraidthat's a beautiful example and
(15:10):
the kids they're going to beconfident rather than thinking
because you do as a child.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Don't you think anything that happens with one's
parents one we intend to blameourselves or we've done
something wrong, when actuallythe reality is not always,
always, always that case?
And I really respect howcandidly you spoke about your um
, your parents and and thesituations and and also in your
book, you you were able toreflect and from your, from your
(15:38):
journey of how the gifts thatwere in this, even though there
was all these traumatic anddifficult events as I was
reading, I could see you had yousaw maybe it's with years of
experience, but you're able tosee like some of the gifts, like
gardening, was a thing thatreally helped.
You felt a good connection withyour grandfather and father in
(15:58):
that and it made me think againabout the another quote I took
from your book, which is when westop running and stop listening
, we learn to befriend thesymptoms we once feared.
Something powerful begins tohappen and I found that really
powerful.
I don't know, I almost can'tverbalize it.
(16:21):
It was like, yes, we canbefriend them instead of being
scared of these symptoms of life.
Could you explain how you cameto that conclusion?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, the first thing about that quote is you can see
that it gives you permission tobe the way you are and that's
really important because mostlywe we're in our, you know the
the head has had a coup over theheart and mostly, you know, we
respond, like I said, with thecognitive responses and we're
just um.
(16:53):
There's many levels oflistening that I talk about in
my workshops and and classes, umand uh the the first level
would be two-dimensional,basically, I'm just projecting
on you, I actually I'm justputting out there and you know
we do that a lot, you know wehave to if we really look, we do
(17:15):
do that most of the time.
Then there's three-dimensionaland that's kind of like, oh,
there's a real person out thereand I can, you know, listen to
her questions and respond to it,and that's three-dimensional.
But the work that I do islearning how to uh be
(17:37):
four-dimensional in mycommunication, which I mentioned
early, feeling myself, feelingyou, feeling me in the space
between us.
Four-dimensional means I'm inmy communication, which I
mentioned early.
Feeling myself, feeling you,feeling me in the space between
us.
Four-dimensional means I'm inmy body and I can feel you.
So emotions connect withemotions, body sensations
connect with sensations andmental connects with mental, but
(17:59):
the real work of trauma is tobe dropped into the body and
that's a practice.
And so I have a particularpractice I do with my therapy
clients as well as with, um, mygroups, that I do, and um it's.
It's a trauma integrationprocess.
Now it takes many differentforms.
(18:20):
You know I've been doing this awhile, so it takes many
different forms.
You know I've been doing this awhile, so it takes many
different forms.
But the first thing ispresencing and again, it's a
verb.
I'm very big on verbs becauseverbs are emergent and most of
our conversations arenon-emergent.
What do I mean by that?
I mean that I speak to you froma story, like I have a story,
(18:43):
but I'm not my story, but formany years, because I'm kind of
a trauma poster child.
You know I didn't write thisout of what I learned in books.
I learned this having gonethrough, as you know, reading
the book, a lot of trauma, so,um, so to get into this this
(19:04):
kind of three-dimensional placewhere I can feel you and I can
feel that you're feeling me,that's, that's four-dimensional,
that's a whole different way ofrelating, it's an evolutionary
way and it and it's emergent.
It's not my story is over hereand I'm talking about my life
like it's my story.
It's emergent, it's not.
My story is over here and I'mtalking about my life like it's
my story.
It's emergent, it's what'scoming through me, so I allow
(19:28):
myself to really move through me.
I have the capacity to speak,like when I do talks and now
book.
I'm doing all these book thingsfor my book.
I never use notes because Iwant to be with people rather
than looking at a sheet, butthere's nothing more boring than
being talked to death, you know, with somebody reading their
(19:52):
notes.
You know I was with somebodyyesterday that just read
everything and it's like hello,I'm over here actually, you know
.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
So the model that I use and it sounds simple but
it's not, it's the first step ispresencing.
Presencing means that I stop, Isoften, I slow down, I listen
to what's happening in my innerbody, my inner space, and space
(20:21):
is so important, so mostly we'rekind of tight.
Inner space is like the paperthat the words in the book are
written on.
It's what allows me to create,to manifest.
If I'm all cramped and tight, Ihave no space to connect with
(20:42):
myself, let alone you.
So presencing is aboutgrounding.
It's about, you know, cominginto my inner body and feeling
the sensations and the emotionsSome of us aren't even able to
feel.
When I was very young you mighthave read this in the book I
went to get Rolf.
That was in my 20s.
This in the book.
(21:06):
I went to get Rolf.
That was in my 20s and after acouple sessions my Rolfer said
Michael, you're the first personI worked on that doesn't
realize he has a body.
And that was a shocking thing,you know.
After that I met Gabrielle Rothand became a five rhythms
teacher for you know, the last40, some years or 50 years.
But at that time I was movingbecause I didn't want to feel
(21:26):
the things that I had suppressedin my early childhood.
Just it was too much so.
Then when you're, when you're,traumatized, like I was, I move
fast, I adapt, I, you know, I Idance away from whatever it is
that wants to come up.
So presencing is what's reallyimportant.
(21:53):
The first step is to get aconscious awareness of what's
happening in my body, whatemotions are here.
And if the listeners are hereright now, ask yourself you know
what's happening in your body,you know what's happening with
your liver right now, or yourlungs or your heart.
You know mostly we we havetrouble touching into that.
Or ask yourself what emotion ispresent for me right now?
There's no good or bad emotions.
(22:14):
I do a whole thing on emotionsin my workshops.
There's no good or bad emotions, but you know each one is a.
(22:35):
So what am I feeling right now?
Can I feel joy?
Can I feel fear, physically inmy body?
And you know, the majority ofus have numbed ourselves and we
don't really feel that unlessit's something that just blows
up.
And then you know that'susually.
Usually what we blow up and getangry or upset about is not
(22:56):
what we're upset about.
It's something from the past,in what I call after time.
It's something that, becausehere's what trauma you want a
simple explanation yes, please.
Okay, trauma is unintegratedpast period.
That's why I call it after time, because you know, you have a,
you have an argument with your,with your boss or your partner
(23:19):
or something, and it's like howcould he say that?
I can't believe that.
He said that to me.
I just you know and you wake upthe next morning.
I can't believe that.
And 10 years later you're stillhaving the same conversation
and it's causing you illness,it's causing dis-ease,
disharmony in your body, becausetrauma creates stress.
60 to 90% of all illness isabout stress and it it is, you
(23:44):
know, a product of unintegratedpast.
So the first step, presencing Iget here, I'm feeling that, ok,
I deepen it and I raise theresolution of my awareness, of
(24:05):
my awareness.
So I call that witnessing.
That's another level, when Ican become able to actually
witness.
You know what's happening in myspleen right now.
You know, in that area, when Ican get to that level of
witnessing which is verypossible, it just takes practice
then that deepens it and Ibegin to then tap into these
traumas.
I don't know if you know thepoem by Rumi the Guest House.
(24:26):
Have you ever read?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
that poem.
Yes, yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
So all those sorrows and difficulties and all those
things invite them in.
You know, even if they're goingto tear your house apart which
it feels like when you'reworking with trauma.
Sometimes it feels like youknow, my house is going to be
torn apart, but no, you'remaking room, you're creating
space.
Again, this thing about spaceis really important.
(24:48):
So I'm witnessing that and I'mnot trying to get somewhere
other than where I am.
That's the third step, becausewe always want to get past the
difficulty, past the upset, pastthe trigger, right, but no,
that's what you need to be with.
You need to allow yourself tojust be with that.
(25:10):
Then the last step is embracing.
I say I love my little anger, Ilove my shame, and it's a
teacher, and I know that it's ateacher and I welcome it's a
teacher and I welcome it in, andwithout force or without trying
to get rid of anything, itautomatically integrates it.
What is integrate presence isintegrated past.
(25:35):
So I deepen my presence andcreate more space, the more I
can be with what's ever arising.
Unintegrated past is destiny.
I will live it again and againand again, so like in a
relationship.
You know, I laugh sometimesbecause I do work with couples
(25:58):
and I laugh sometimes because Ihave to tell people that you
married your unfinished business, this is your work, what?
But it's true, the body knowshow to heal.
It finds exactly what needs toheal, so I fall madly in love.
(26:20):
What is falling madly in lovewith heal?
So I I fall madly in love.
What is falling madly in lovewith?
You know?
First we think it's you know,um, sex and attraction and he or
she looks good and all that, orI like the way they think.
But.
But you know really what will?
What comes up in the?
In a good relationship, one ofus needs to stay present so the
other can feel their trigger sothat's a really important thing.
(26:43):
If I'm really triggered and I'mblaming you and I'm yelling at
you and it's the 10th time I'mdoing that you know it's a
trigger from the past.
It has nothing to do withwhat's happening right now.
It looks like he's the onethat's making you make me so mad
.
You know he's just triggeringthe anger in you that you
haven't yet expressed and dealtwith.
(27:04):
That's all.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So then if you stay present, if they're being
triggered, then you're kind ofnot taking it so personal.
You kind of allow them to likeprocess it, rather than kind of
thinking, oh, you're blaming me,it's more like I'm being
present, they're really acting atrigger and I guess when you're
in a relationship it's theultimate learning ground in many
(27:28):
ways, isn't it?
Because it is attachment stylesand that unmet childhood things
we can work through together.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
You can't get present .
It's presencing, presencing.
Presence is a noun, sayingpresence is a noun, presencing
is a capacity.
So doing.
Yeah, I will get triggered, youknow, you ever like.
I drove to Tahoe recently,which is about an hour and a
(27:56):
half drive from where I live,lake Tahoe and and I been in the
car an hour and all of a suddenI was in trucking and I went.
What happened?
I don't remember anything thathappened in that time.
I was completely in my headdriving along but I was not
presencing.
I was not so, you know, couldsay present, but but it's really
(28:19):
for healing purposes.
I bringing my back, self back.
I noticed when I go away, youI'm bringing myself back.
I notice when I go away.
You know, I'm sure you notice.
You know I was on the radio for17 years and I began to notice
somebody be talking things andI'd be thinking of something and
I have to bring myself back.
That's presencing is bringingmyself back.
(28:40):
You're for sure gonna go away.
You know we live in such afast-paced world that You're,
you're going to go away.
So presencing, witnessing andembracing is the model and
that's what creates integration.
(29:01):
It doesn't take force orCoercion, it's not hard.
It's.
It's challenging to staypresent as a presencing witness,
but in that witnessing state,that's the deeper presencing.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Presencing.
I like that Presencing.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
As opposed to distancing or absencing, which
is also a verb I do a lot of.
I teach a class calledrelational intimacy, which is
not.
It's more about intimacy withyourself than other people, but
it connects with other peopleand, and again, we say my
relationship.
Now, if I say my relationship,how do I know it's my
(29:44):
relationship?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, you don't oh no , you do.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But you can only know my relationship with my mother,
with my partner, with mywhatever.
You can only know it by whatyou know in the past.
It means you're not present.
So there's a big differencebetween relating and my
relationship.
Relating is something you know.
(30:10):
Let's say I'm in a relationshipand we've been together for 10
years and we love each other andwe wake up in the morning and I
look over and I say, oh, goodmorning, honey.
Would you brush your teeth?
You know, please, it's likeit's like it's.
It gets kind of boring wakingup with the same person.
(30:30):
But what if I was laying nextto you and and I woke up and I
said, whoa, who is this personthat's next to me?
What amazing things are wegoing to discover about each
other today?
I don't know you, but I'm goingto spend the rest of my life
getting to know you.
How can I get a relationshipwith that be?
I?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
don't know of a spectacular one spectacular yeah
, absolutely yeah, it's got.
So it's a bit about umpresencing, trying to see as
much as possible things throughfresh eyes, but also being in
the moment and just lettingthings unfold by relating and
(31:12):
understanding and not andunderstanding other people and
slowing down.
So if I'm a listener and I wantto know all about, about your
courses and your books and how Ican reach out to you, what is,
what's the-h-tcom?
Uh, you can also write me, butit's I'm kind of overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I usually have about 300 backed up emails in my
personal mail at any time, sothe best thing is, uh, you can
go to my site, send me an emailif you're interested in being in
a course, sign up for mynewsletter, the Well of Light.
It's a monthly newsletterthat's been going on for years,
(32:03):
and you can also, if you'reinterested in actually doing
some work together, there's aplace on my site where you can
set up a 15-minute call.
It might take a while to get tome, but sometimes not right now
, with the new book out.
It's a little bit crazy withdoing all these podcasts, but
you know I love it.
(32:23):
You know, as someone who was onthe radio for 17 years, I kind
of missed that, but I just don'thave time to do that anymore.
But I'm really committed tosupporting people and being a
mirror for them to see theiramazing inner intelligence and
(32:46):
capacity, which is so muchgreater than any of us realize
we have.
And so you know contact me thatway.
So just to give some background,both my parents were at Pearl
Harbor.
My father was a fighter pilot.
My mother was the secretary tothe person in command of the
fleet of the whatever, thePacific fleet.
(33:09):
So they were both very muchthere.
So they were both very muchthere when the bombing came.
(33:37):
They were right in the middleof it.
So my father was pretty muchabsent most of his life, absent
with me certainly, which was ofcourse a big thing.
Trying to get his attention,which I did in many ways, as you
know in the book, trying to gethis attention, which I did in
many ways, as you know in thebook, uh, try to get his
attention.
But then also, my mother uh,became mentally ill.
She, she actually graduatedfrom stanford one of the you
know she in in 1940.
So pretty amazing to have awoman with a Stanford degree in
1940.
And she was very heavily hitwith all the death and
(34:02):
destruction and was becamementally ill, tried to kill me
for the first two years of mylife and then I found her
hanging when I was two and ahalf.
So that's, you know, of course,a very, you know uh, baseline
trauma, uh.
(34:23):
But I had many other traumas,many friends uh killed and dying
, um, uh and uh, my dog, uh,that was my savior as a child,
had seven, one of my either mystepmother or father, tied him
up.
I came home and found himhanging on the fence, so my
second hanging and then, youknow, one of the big ones was in
(34:48):
1981.
My wife was raped and murderedin Carmel, california, and they
knew it was, but they had a hungjury, and so for many years 40,
40 years I was 42 years reallyI was under suspicion, not by
(35:10):
the police, but by other people,and there was gossip and
stories started.
I live in a small town, andthat was really challenging for
me and had a huge impact on meand led me, though, to doing
this work, deepening this work,and then, two years ago, they
got some money for DNA evidence,and the evidence Proved that
(35:34):
this person had done it, andhe's now doing life without
parole.
So there's a few highlights ofmy life to give you a sense of
that.
I've always had this feeling ofneeding to be of service, so
I've been of service to thecommunity in spite of all these
things, and it's what, like Isaid, my book is the medicine
(35:58):
that I want to offer the world,and what you said in the very
beginning I've heard fromeverybody that talks about the
book is I thought that was aboutyou, but when I read it, I
realized it was as much about meas it was about you, and it's
really about the process and thejourney of healing fully
recommend it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And and what good medicine to to give to the world
and I'm very grateful that youyou put together let me just
grab a book here yeah, yeah,show me the book that would be
lovely uh, because, uh, it'shere we go uh it's called
traumatized a love story, right,but the subtitle is really
(36:39):
important.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Now that's me and my dog and up in the air you see my
father flying off here um, butthe subtitle healing the wounds
that separate, alienate,alienate and Marginalize Us.
That was also the subtitle ofmy radio show for many years,
(37:00):
conversations with the World'sKnown, so I invited all you know
I was very committed to climatechange issues, social justice
issues and personal you know,personal issues, and so I had
psychiatrists and scientists andall kinds of amazing people
(37:23):
still connected with many ofthose people and I love doing
that.
But that's really kind of amission I would like to give
away to more people healing thewounds that separate, alienate
and marginalize us.
And how do you do that?
By doing your own shadow work,your own inner work.
(37:44):
So if you're interested in indoing that kind of work with me,
please I often have openingsand and and I am going to be
starting another online group,uh, probably in the fall so
people can join me online and ifthey're in california, they can
, or anywhere they can fly hereand do something.
(38:06):
I haven't.
I I would love to come back tolondon.
I haven't done anything therefor a long time.
So, uh, maybe somebody willcall me from your area and say
I'll sponsor you to come and anddo a program here.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
I'd love that.
I'll tell my friends as welland see if anyone can help
arrange that.
Um, is there any final thoughtsthat you would like to share,
because you know that theremight be some that you're really
dying to share with thelisteners?
Speaker 2 (38:35):
yeah, I guess you know.
The main thing is that what Isaid a little bit earlier you
have no idea of the power andthe capacity you have.
And right now, in the face ofso much change, you know we have
every major issue, from racism,enslavement, climate change,
(38:56):
war.
You know there's like 35different wars going on right
now.
We think of the big ones thatare happening, the big three or
four, but there, you know,there's all of this happening
and at the heart of it is trauma.
The heart of it is trauma.
(39:19):
And I remember back in I'm notsure what year it was, but the
riots in Watts, california, inSouthern Los Angeles, and there
was a guy named Rodney King whohad been beaten up by the police
.
You might remember that and Ialways remember his question and
I've lived with that questionever since.
I heard you said it andeverybody made fun of what he
said, said oh, that's so naive,this is how we've normalized
(39:42):
trauma.
And what he said is why can'twe just get along Now?
Is that a question to live usor what?
To me, that's the question.
It's a walking question to mewhy can't we just get along?
And the answer to that is wehave a lot of unfinished past
that we need to heal andintegrate.
(40:03):
So that's what I would say Verywise, I did say that, yes, you
(40:29):
did Amazing wise words and I'mgoing to continue enjoying your
book and I will.
Why I'm appearing on podcastsand things?
Because I really want people toto have this and to join
together in being a socialwitness in a way, so that we,
the more we do our inner work,the more capacity we have to
hold life and that's what I'mtrying to get out there to
(40:58):
people is by our own, do our ownhealing.
Every time we heal a part of us, it heals the collective and it
heals our ancestral stream,which is a whole other thing we
should do another show about,maybe definitely definitely I'm
really into that because I'mdoing shamanic training at the
moment and the stuff like theancestral stuff it's.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
so I don't know, I can feel it changing the family
and the dynamics, but, like yousaid, that's another show.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, that's part of, just to tell you, that's part
of my roots.
You know, I'm still on the onthe shift network and I started
out as a shamanic practitionerand I was the host of the
shamanic wisdom summit for abouteight years for the shift
network.
So I've I'm very, uh, familiarwith that work and it's
(41:45):
integrated into my own work uh,you've done so.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So many amazing things, michael, and, and and
what.
What an amazing and honeststory.
So, dear listeners, thewonderful michael stone, who's
got a very early to join us fromcalifornia and, as always, do
stay tuned as meditationinspired by today's show, but
the one and only michael stone.
Thank you, michael, thank you,thank you.
(42:11):
Top tips for the meditation iseither sit nice and cross-legged
on the floor with a nicestraight back always nice to sit
on a block or a cushion orthat's not available for you you
sit in a chair with the backnice and straight.
The important thing is you'renot slouching and if you're
doing something that requiresyou concentration, all you need
(42:31):
to do is just pause this and youcan reconvene the meditation at
a time that is good for you.
If you're doing the meditation,let's begin.
This meditation was recordedlive outside, so there may be
some background noise, but Ifeel it adds to the depth of
this meditation.
(42:52):
So which path should you go andhow to know as you embark
through life?
As you sit there with your eyesclosed and start to breathe
slowly through your nose, canyou surrender to the moment?
Whatever distractions come yourway, can you always remember to
(43:19):
have gratitude for this day.
Can you be kinder to yourself,send more love, have more faith
in the forces above.
Find joy in what you do.
Don't dwell in the past.
(43:41):
Find joy in what you do.
Don't dwell in the past.
Let it go.
Instead, allow life to flow.
Allow yourself to be seen.
Care less for what others thinkof you and sing your own song,
whatever that is.
No one knows that better deepdown than you.
There may be externaldistractions, noises, smells,
(44:07):
things to look at, things tothink at, things to touch.
I invite you to find the timeto switch off from all of these
once a day.
Allow life to unfold in its ownmagical way the smell of the
summer, the comfort of the joyof spring, the beauty of letting
(44:34):
go during fall autumn, thescent of the ground after a
summer's rain, the comfort ofdrying yourself under the side
of a warm fire in the winter.
Whatever time of year, whateverthe circumstances life is flow
(45:02):
equally.
We need to kind of ground thatkite, take a deep breath and
allow the joy of nature to befree.
Allow life to unfold and allowyourself to truly see we are
never truly alone.
So come back into the moment,come back into the room, take
(45:24):
some deep breaths and slowly goabout your day night morning.
Hello everybody, I'm your host, the Gentle Yoga
Warrior, and this is AwakenedConscious Conversations podcast,
and shortly joining us at abright and early 6am in
California will be the wonderfulMichael Stone, and I'm deeply
honoured to have Michael on theshow.
Michael has had quite a journey, to say the least.
(00:23):
He was born between the twoatom bombs.
His parents were in PearlHarbor and, traumatized from
that, sadly, his mother took herown life and he had the shadow
of people thinking that he hadmurdered his wife for a long
(00:43):
time, only recently, in 2023,being fully cleared by DNA
evidence, and I suspect Michaelcould have chosen a path of
feeling sorry for himself andalso a path of feeling a victim.
But from what I've read in hisbook so far and the stuff that
I've seen about Michael, hedecided to completely change his
(01:08):
life around.
We will learn more in, moreelegantly put by Michael, I'm
sure, because it's his lifeexperience, he's going to
explain it the best.
But I did some research onMichael and Michael Stone is a
spiritual author.
His recent book Traumatize aLove Story by Michael Stone.
(01:31):
I have had the grace to readabout a quarter of it before
this interview and I must say Icannot put it down.
The way he writes makes me feelthat I'm understood and even
though our life stories weredifferent, I can completely
relate to the mother wound andthe father wound and I
particularly like the way hereflects after each chapter and
(01:57):
how he's learned from his life'sexperience.
On reflection, he did variousthings to kind of navigate
through this difficult terrainto become the great spiritual
teacher, leader and source ofinspiration that he is now.
And I'm deeply, deeplyappreciative of this 6am start.
(02:18):
It can't be easy to get upearly, even if you're an early
riser.
And get up and do a podcast atsix in the morning just goes to
show that he's willing to puthimself out to kind of mix in
with um the time zones here.
So I really appreciate theeffort that has been put into
that.
So shortly we're going to betalking about rethink trauma as
(02:40):
a sacred adaption.
So, dear dear listeners, aspromised, here is the wonderful
Michael Stone kindly joining usat 6am from California, usa.
So welcome to the show, michael.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Thank you, it's good to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
It's an honor to have you on the show today and I had
the joy of reading some of yourwonderful book Traumatized, a
love story by Michael Stone andI get to read a lot of books
over over the years, but withyours I just couldn't put it
down because in so many ways Icould even though your story is
different to mine, because we'veall got our unique paths I
(03:19):
could really relate to a lot ofthe stuff that you had in it and
I just found it to a lot of thestuff that you had in it and I
just found it.
If ever there was an example ofsomeone who have kind of taken
the um, the coarseness anddifficulties of one's life and
kind of used it as likefertilizer for life, to kind of
to to lead this deeply spirituallife, it is yourself.
(03:43):
um I I thought we would talktoday about rethinking trauma,
because trauma is something wehear a lot about these days, but
I think the way that younavigated it, presented it and
your understanding is going tobe of deep benefit for our
listeners.
Firstly, michael, would youmind sharing a bit of your
(04:03):
backstory so far and what'sinspired?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
you sure I have to say, uh, so many people say the
same thing that, even though itwas my story that they uh can
really relate in their own lifeand that was really part of the
purpose I?
Um, just to start with, uh, Ihad two purposes.
One was my own healing.
I've been dealing with trauma,teaching about trauma, talking
(04:34):
about trauma, integration, formany, many years, and I love
doing this, working with people.
So the first reason was for myown healing, though the second
was that we don't realize thatwe're all traumatized.
You know, I'm sure some of yourlisteners are probably saying
(04:54):
I'm not traumatized, I had awonderful, happy childhood.
Well, yeah, but when we lookunder which we will under the
covers, we'll see that we're alltraumatized.
We will, under the covers,we'll see that we're all
traumatized.
If it isn't individual, it'srelational, familial, collective
(05:16):
, ancestral, geographic,historic.
It's, you know, and it's at theheart of all the issues in the
world.
So I'm this is, you know, I'mturning 80 next month and this
is kind of my focus right nowand my medicine for the world,
in a way.
And so you ask, what is trauma?
So it's probably the mostmisunderstood thing on the
(05:39):
planet, because we think oftrauma as an illness, a
pathology, a brokenness,something we want to get rid of,
right?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
But in reality, trauma is an amazing
intelligence that's beenevolving for millions of years
really, and its intelligence isto protect us in overwhelming
situations.
So there are many kinds oftrauma, but the most important
thing to realize at first isthat it's not something to get
(06:11):
rid of.
It's something that's wantingto teach you how to be whole.
I think that's really animportant distinction to make.
The other thing that'simportant to know about trauma
is it's not the thing thathappened.
To know about trauma is it'snot the thing that happened.
It's what happened in us whenthe thing happened, whatever
that thing was.
And that's really important,because if it was the thing that
(06:32):
happened, we could neverintegrate and heal it.
So you, we have to, like,understand that this is an
intelligence in our body that ifwe can tap into not try to get
rid of it, you know, but toreally embrace it.
And I'll talk, we'll talk moreabout that.
What happens?
Just a couple of things.
What happens?
(06:53):
There is a number of symptomsthat you know that you have
trauma.
One of them is a sense ofseparation, a separate self.
Now you know, you're over here,jane, in London right now, and
I'm here in California and itlooks like well, that's a long
(07:14):
distance, you're far away, butI'm seeing you.
And one way of knowing personis I'm seeing this person that
I'm with over here.
But another way I think that'sreally important to see, and how
we see another person isactually you show up in my
nervous system and I'm showingup in your nervous system.
(07:34):
There is no distance reallybetween us.
That my capacity to know you isexactly related to the
circumference of my capacity tofeel myself.
So if I'm able to feel you,then we do a thing in my work
(07:56):
feeling myself, feeling you,feeling me and the space between
us, because that allows us totune in.
The other thing about traumathat's really important to
recognize this is not acognitive illness and
traditional therapy will notintegrate trauma.
It's somatic, it's the body,it's the emotions.
(08:19):
So we have to be able to allowourselves.
But what happens with trauma isit either becomes a numbing of
our body.
It's not a numbness, it's anumbing.
It's like your refrigerator'splugged in and it's keeping
things cool.
Numbing is plugged in.
(08:39):
It's a verb, not a noun, andtensing is part of the process.
So we're really numbing andtensing as a result of the
unintegrated past that we'recarrying in our bodies.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So that's a quick overview that's really
refreshing to hear it put likethat, because we're always
taught or I seem to see is thattrauma is a bad thing and that
we it's.
It's somehow kind of a weakness.
But, like you said, we've allgot trauma to to some degree and
and trauma healing is anevolutionary path.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Your show is about consciousness.
Trauma is the thing to focus onthe shadow.
If we're looking for spiritualattainment, you know we look at
spiritual awakening as a placeto get to.
There's no place to get to,it's all right here, right now.
Material, you know what Jungcalled the shadow material?
(09:48):
It's really the things that wedon't want to feel, the things
that we don't want to look at,and certainly the things we
don't want somebody else rightto know.
Oh my god, they knew that aboutme.
They think I was really up,whatever, and so.
But working with a shadow,inner work, is what gives us a
greater capacity to hold life,and so when we can do that, then
(10:12):
we are.
Every time we break a habit,whether it's a habit like
smoking or eating or anydisorder habits are crystallized
structures in our body, andevery time we change a habit, we
make an evolutionary moveforward as towards our wholeness
(10:36):
and the potential of the humanspecies.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I've had that experience myself in few things
and the awareness isn't it tokind of know, um, how we can
change the habit and things likethis?
In your wonderful book it's,you had a quote by dr peter a
levin who says the paradox oftrauma is that it has both the
power to destroy and the powerto transform and resurrect.
(11:03):
So I guess that leads on a bitfrom what you, what you were
saying, where we kind of canchange, like these habits, and,
for us, change our ourselves.
So I guess, um, what I'm tryingto get to is the.
The trauma is a gift in manyways, but I guess it's how we
(11:24):
approach it.
We can either let it be, um,destroy us, or see it as a way
to improve ourselves.
And if I'm a listener and I'mlistening and thinking, oh yes,
I'd like to go the improvemyself way, how would, how would
I approach that through your,your methods?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
yeah, that's a good question and it's, of course, a
huge question.
Uh, I do, uh, online, uh workwith people, um, but my favorite
thing to do is groups.
I also do online groups, but Ido private groups, and the
reason I do it that way is wewere wounded in relationship and
(12:03):
so it always made sense to methat healing is a relational
issue.
So let's go back to earlychildhood development.
How do we learn toself-regulate, to be able to
walk in the world, have ouremotions with people fully?
(12:26):
How do we learn toself-regulate ourself?
You only learn to self-regulatethrough co-regulation.
So you learn to co-regulatewith a caring witness, a mother,
a parent, uh, a caring witness,you know, however, that was a
foster mother, would or parent.
(12:47):
So what happens is in earlydevelopment, if we aren't felt,
seen, held, heard and protected,we're going to be traumatized,
and there are different kinds,and I won't get into all the
different kinds of of impactthat has, but, um, and it's very
(13:08):
subtle.
Let me give you an example.
Let's say, uh, I'm a toddler.
Now, how do we learn?
We learn with curiosity.
We go out, we go, oh, look atthis, and I get curious and
maybe I'm interested in the dog,and the dog barks and I run
back and I say mommy, mommy, I'mmommy, I'm scared, the dog's
(13:30):
gonna eat me.
And mommy says oh, there'snothing to be scared about,
sweetheart, yeah, I, I'm reallybusy now.
Go on and play, don't be scared, grow up, grow up, you know.
And that's one example.
Well, that's a traumatizingevent.
Why is that a traumatizingevent?
Because an emotional questionwas answered with a cognitive
(13:55):
response.
The child is left then feelingI'm not supposed to be scared.
My mommy says I'm not supposedto be scared, but I am scared,
something's wrong.
And we never say something'swrong with my mommy.
We say something's wrong withme.
And that becomes an adaptation.
Then that I have to adapt tothis break in my relatedness.
(14:26):
Let's say and this is, I justswitch genders all the time when
I say this same same situationand the child goes out, the dog
barks, comes running back, daddy, daddy, daddy, I'm scared, the
dog's gonna eat me.
And daddy says come here,sweetheart, come here.
Do you know what?
I get scared sometimes too, andit's okay to be scared and I
love you so much.
And the toddler goes, oh, andgoes and plays with the dog.
(14:48):
Now, that is a reaffirmingsense of self.
So now I've learned that, oh,it's OK to be scared, I don't
have to push it down, I don'thave to go fast and keep busy
and keep running, so I don'thave to feel those things
because it's okay to be afraidthat's a beautiful example and
(15:10):
the kids they're going to beconfident rather than thinking
because you do as a child.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Don't you think anything that happens with one's
parents one we intend to blameourselves or we've done
something wrong, when actuallythe reality is not always,
always, always that case?
And I really respect howcandidly you spoke about your um
, your parents and and thesituations and and also in your
book, you you were able toreflect and from your, from your
(15:38):
journey of how the gifts thatwere in this, even though there
was all these traumatic anddifficult events as I was
reading, I could see you had yousaw maybe it's with years of
experience, but you're able tosee like some of the gifts, like
gardening, was a thing thatreally helped.
You felt a good connection withyour grandfather and father in
(15:58):
that and it made me think againabout the another quote I took
from your book, which is when westop running and stop listening
, we learn to befriend thesymptoms we once feared.
Something powerful begins tohappen and I found that really
powerful.
I don't know, I almost can'tverbalize it.
(16:21):
It was like, yes, we canbefriend them instead of being
scared of these symptoms of life.
Could you explain how you cameto that conclusion?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, the first thing about that quote is you can see
that it gives you permission tobe the way you are and that's
really important because mostlywe we're in our, you know the
the head has had a coup over theheart and mostly, you know, we
respond, like I said, with thecognitive responses and we're
just um.
(16:53):
There's many levels oflistening that I talk about in
my workshops and and classes, umand uh the the first level
would be two-dimensional,basically, I'm just projecting
on you, I actually I'm justputting out there and you know
we do that a lot, you know wehave to if we really look, we do
(17:15):
do that most of the time.
Then there's three-dimensionaland that's kind of like, oh,
there's a real person out thereand I can, you know, listen to
her questions and respond to it,and that's three-dimensional.
But the work that I do islearning how to uh be
(17:37):
four-dimensional in mycommunication, which I mentioned
early, feeling myself, feelingyou, feeling me in the space
between us.
Four-dimensional means I'm inmy communication, which I
mentioned early.
Feeling myself, feeling you,feeling me in the space between
us.
Four-dimensional means I'm inmy body and I can feel you.
So emotions connect withemotions, body sensations
connect with sensations andmental connects with mental, but
(17:59):
the real work of trauma is tobe dropped into the body and
that's a practice.
And so I have a particularpractice I do with my therapy
clients as well as with, um, mygroups, that I do, and um it's.
It's a trauma integrationprocess.
Now it takes many differentforms.
(18:20):
You know I've been doing this awhile, so it takes many
different forms.
You know I've been doing this awhile, so it takes many
different forms.
But the first thing ispresencing and again, it's a
verb.
I'm very big on verbs becauseverbs are emergent and most of
our conversations arenon-emergent.
What do I mean by that?
I mean that I speak to you froma story, like I have a story,
(18:43):
but I'm not my story, but formany years, because I'm kind of
a trauma poster child.
You know I didn't write thisout of what I learned in books.
I learned this having gonethrough, as you know, reading
the book, a lot of trauma, so,um, so to get into this this
(19:04):
kind of three-dimensional placewhere I can feel you and I can
feel that you're feeling me,that's, that's four-dimensional,
that's a whole different way ofrelating, it's an evolutionary
way and it and it's emergent.
It's not my story is over hereand I'm talking about my life
like it's my story.
It's emergent, it's not.
My story is over here and I'mtalking about my life like it's
my story.
It's emergent, it's what'scoming through me, so I allow
(19:28):
myself to really move through me.
I have the capacity to speak,like when I do talks and now
book.
I'm doing all these book thingsfor my book.
I never use notes because Iwant to be with people rather
than looking at a sheet, butthere's nothing more boring than
being talked to death, you know, with somebody reading their
(19:52):
notes.
You know I was with somebodyyesterday that just read
everything and it's like hello,I'm over here actually, you know
.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
So the model that I use and it sounds simple but
it's not, it's the first step ispresencing.
Presencing means that I stop, Isoften, I slow down, I listen
to what's happening in my innerbody, my inner space, and space
(20:21):
is so important, so mostly we'rekind of tight.
Inner space is like the paperthat the words in the book are
written on.
It's what allows me to create,to manifest.
If I'm all cramped and tight, Ihave no space to connect with
(20:42):
myself, let alone you.
So presencing is aboutgrounding.
It's about, you know, cominginto my inner body and feeling
the sensations and the emotionsSome of us aren't even able to
feel.
When I was very young you mighthave read this in the book I
went to get Rolf.
That was in my 20s.
This in the book.
(21:06):
I went to get Rolf.
That was in my 20s and after acouple sessions my Rolfer said
Michael, you're the first personI worked on that doesn't
realize he has a body.
And that was a shocking thing,you know.
After that I met Gabrielle Rothand became a five rhythms
teacher for you know, the last40, some years or 50 years.
But at that time I was movingbecause I didn't want to feel
(21:26):
the things that I had suppressedin my early childhood.
Just it was too much so.
Then when you're, when you're,traumatized, like I was, I move
fast, I adapt, I, you know, I Idance away from whatever it is
that wants to come up.
So presencing is what's reallyimportant.
(21:53):
The first step is to get aconscious awareness of what's
happening in my body, whatemotions are here.
And if the listeners are hereright now, ask yourself you know
what's happening in your body,you know what's happening with
your liver right now, or yourlungs or your heart.
You know mostly we we havetrouble touching into that.
Or ask yourself what emotion ispresent for me right now?
There's no good or bad emotions.
(22:14):
I do a whole thing on emotionsin my workshops.
There's no good or bad emotions, but you know each one is a.
(22:35):
So what am I feeling right now?
Can I feel joy?
Can I feel fear, physically inmy body?
And you know, the majority ofus have numbed ourselves and we
don't really feel that unlessit's something that just blows
up.
And then you know that'susually.
Usually what we blow up and getangry or upset about is not
(22:56):
what we're upset about.
It's something from the past,in what I call after time.
It's something that, becausehere's what trauma you want a
simple explanation yes, please.
Okay, trauma is unintegratedpast period.
That's why I call it after time, because you know, you have a,
you have an argument with your,with your boss or your partner
(23:19):
or something, and it's like howcould he say that?
I can't believe that.
He said that to me.
I just you know and you wake upthe next morning.
I can't believe that.
And 10 years later you're stillhaving the same conversation
and it's causing you illness,it's causing dis-ease,
disharmony in your body, becausetrauma creates stress.
60 to 90% of all illness isabout stress and it it is, you
(23:44):
know, a product of unintegratedpast.
So the first step, presencing Iget here, I'm feeling that, ok,
I deepen it and I raise theresolution of my awareness, of
(24:05):
my awareness.
So I call that witnessing.
That's another level, when Ican become able to actually
witness.
You know what's happening in myspleen right now.
You know, in that area, when Ican get to that level of
witnessing which is verypossible, it just takes practice
then that deepens it and Ibegin to then tap into these
traumas.
I don't know if you know thepoem by Rumi the Guest House.
(24:26):
Have you ever read?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
that poem.
Yes, yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
So all those sorrows and difficulties and all those
things invite them in.
You know, even if they're goingto tear your house apart which
it feels like when you'reworking with trauma.
Sometimes it feels like youknow, my house is going to be
torn apart, but no, you'remaking room, you're creating
space.
Again, this thing about spaceis really important.
(24:48):
So I'm witnessing that and I'mnot trying to get somewhere
other than where I am.
That's the third step, becausewe always want to get past the
difficulty, past the upset, pastthe trigger, right, but no,
that's what you need to be with.
You need to allow yourself tojust be with that.
(25:10):
Then the last step is embracing.
I say I love my little anger, Ilove my shame, and it's a
teacher, and I know that it's ateacher and I welcome it's a
teacher and I welcome it in, andwithout force or without trying
to get rid of anything, itautomatically integrates it.
What is integrate presence isintegrated past.
(25:35):
So I deepen my presence andcreate more space, the more I
can be with what's ever arising.
Unintegrated past is destiny.
I will live it again and againand again, so like in a
relationship.
You know, I laugh sometimesbecause I do work with couples
(25:58):
and I laugh sometimes because Ihave to tell people that you
married your unfinished business, this is your work, what?
But it's true, the body knowshow to heal.
It finds exactly what needs toheal, so I fall madly in love.
(26:20):
What is falling madly in lovewith heal?
So I I fall madly in love.
What is falling madly in lovewith?
You know?
First we think it's you know,um, sex and attraction and he or
she looks good and all that, orI like the way they think.
But.
But you know really what will?
What comes up in the?
In a good relationship, one ofus needs to stay present so the
other can feel their trigger sothat's a really important thing.
(26:43):
If I'm really triggered and I'mblaming you and I'm yelling at
you and it's the 10th time I'mdoing that you know it's a
trigger from the past.
It has nothing to do withwhat's happening right now.
It looks like he's the onethat's making you make me so mad
.
You know he's just triggeringthe anger in you that you
haven't yet expressed and dealtwith.
(27:04):
That's all.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
So then if you stay present, if they're being
triggered, then you're kind ofnot taking it so personal.
You kind of allow them to likeprocess it, rather than kind of
thinking, oh, you're blaming me,it's more like I'm being
present, they're really acting atrigger and I guess when you're
in a relationship it's theultimate learning ground in many
(27:28):
ways, isn't it?
Because it is attachment stylesand that unmet childhood things
we can work through together.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
You can't get present .
It's presencing, presencing.
Presence is a noun, sayingpresence is a noun, presencing
is a capacity.
So doing.
Yeah, I will get triggered, youknow, you ever like.
I drove to Tahoe recently,which is about an hour and a
(27:56):
half drive from where I live,lake Tahoe and and I been in the
car an hour and all of a suddenI was in trucking and I went.
What happened?
I don't remember anything thathappened in that time.
I was completely in my headdriving along but I was not
presencing.
I was not so, you know, couldsay present, but but it's really
(28:19):
for healing purposes.
I bringing my back, self back.
I noticed when I go away, youI'm bringing myself back.
I notice when I go away.
You know, I'm sure you notice.
You know I was on the radio for17 years and I began to notice
somebody be talking things andI'd be thinking of something and
I have to bring myself back.
That's presencing is bringingmyself back.
(28:40):
You're for sure gonna go away.
You know we live in such afast-paced world that You're,
you're going to go away.
So presencing, witnessing andembracing is the model and
that's what creates integration.
(29:01):
It doesn't take force orCoercion, it's not hard.
It's.
It's challenging to staypresent as a presencing witness,
but in that witnessing state,that's the deeper presencing.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Presencing.
I like that Presencing.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
As opposed to distancing or absencing, which
is also a verb I do a lot of.
I teach a class calledrelational intimacy, which is
not.
It's more about intimacy withyourself than other people, but
it connects with other peopleand, and again, we say my
relationship.
Now, if I say my relationship,how do I know it's my
(29:44):
relationship?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, you don't oh no , you do.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
But you can only know my relationship with my mother,
with my partner, with mywhatever.
You can only know it by whatyou know in the past.
It means you're not present.
So there's a big differencebetween relating and my
relationship.
Relating is something you know.
(30:10):
Let's say I'm in a relationshipand we've been together for 10
years and we love each other andwe wake up in the morning and I
look over and I say, oh, goodmorning, honey.
Would you brush your teeth?
You know, please, it's likeit's like it's.
It gets kind of boring wakingup with the same person.
(30:30):
But what if I was laying nextto you and and I woke up and I
said, whoa, who is this personthat's next to me?
What amazing things are wegoing to discover about each
other today?
I don't know you, but I'm goingto spend the rest of my life
getting to know you.
How can I get a relationshipwith that be?
I?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
don't know of a spectacular one spectacular yeah
, absolutely yeah, it's got.
So it's a bit about umpresencing, trying to see as
much as possible things throughfresh eyes, but also being in
the moment and just lettingthings unfold by relating and
(31:12):
understanding and not andunderstanding other people and
slowing down.
So if I'm a listener and I wantto know all about, about your
courses and your books and how Ican reach out to you, what is,
what's the-h-tcom?
Uh, you can also write me, butit's I'm kind of overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I usually have about 300 backed up emails in my
personal mail at any time, sothe best thing is, uh, you can
go to my site, send me an emailif you're interested in being in
a course, sign up for mynewsletter, the Well of Light.
It's a monthly newsletterthat's been going on for years,
(32:03):
and you can also, if you'reinterested in actually doing
some work together, there's aplace on my site where you can
set up a 15-minute call.
It might take a while to get tome, but sometimes not right now
, with the new book out.
It's a little bit crazy withdoing all these podcasts, but
you know I love it.
(32:23):
You know, as someone who was onthe radio for 17 years, I kind
of missed that, but I just don'thave time to do that anymore.
But I'm really committed tosupporting people and being a
mirror for them to see theiramazing inner intelligence and
(32:46):
capacity, which is so muchgreater than any of us realize
we have.
And so you know contact me thatway.
So just to give some background,both my parents were at Pearl
Harbor.
My father was a fighter pilot.
My mother was the secretary tothe person in command of the
fleet of the whatever, thePacific fleet.
(33:09):
So they were both very muchthere.
So they were both very muchthere when the bombing came.
(33:37):
They were right in the middleof it.
So my father was pretty muchabsent most of his life, absent
with me certainly, which was ofcourse a big thing.
Trying to get his attention,which I did in many ways, as you
know in the book, trying to gethis attention, which I did in
many ways, as you know in thebook, uh, try to get his
attention.
But then also, my mother uh,became mentally ill.
She, she actually graduatedfrom stanford one of the you
know she in in 1940.
So pretty amazing to have awoman with a Stanford degree in
1940.
And she was very heavily hitwith all the death and
(34:02):
destruction and was becamementally ill, tried to kill me
for the first two years of mylife and then I found her
hanging when I was two and ahalf.
So that's, you know, of course,a very, you know uh, baseline
trauma, uh.
(34:23):
But I had many other traumas,many friends uh killed and dying
, um, uh and uh, my dog, uh,that was my savior as a child,
had seven, one of my either mystepmother or father, tied him
up.
I came home and found himhanging on the fence, so my
second hanging and then, youknow, one of the big ones was in
(34:48):
1981.
My wife was raped and murderedin Carmel, california, and they
knew it was, but they had a hungjury, and so for many years 40,
40 years I was 42 years reallyI was under suspicion, not by
(35:10):
the police, but by other people,and there was gossip and
stories started.
I live in a small town, andthat was really challenging for
me and had a huge impact on meand led me, though, to doing
this work, deepening this work,and then, two years ago, they
got some money for DNA evidence,and the evidence Proved that
(35:34):
this person had done it, andhe's now doing life without
parole.
So there's a few highlights ofmy life to give you a sense of
that.
I've always had this feeling ofneeding to be of service, so
I've been of service to thecommunity in spite of all these
things, and it's what, like Isaid, my book is the medicine
(35:58):
that I want to offer the world,and what you said in the very
beginning I've heard fromeverybody that talks about the
book is I thought that was aboutyou, but when I read it, I
realized it was as much about meas it was about you, and it's
really about the process and thejourney of healing fully
recommend it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And and what good medicine to to give to the world
and I'm very grateful that youyou put together let me just
grab a book here yeah, yeah,show me the book that would be
lovely uh, because, uh, it'shere we go uh it's called
traumatized a love story, right,but the subtitle is really
(36:39):
important.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Now that's me and my dog and up in the air you see my
father flying off here um, butthe subtitle healing the wounds
that separate, alienate,alienate and Marginalize Us.
That was also the subtitle ofmy radio show for many years,
(37:00):
conversations with the World'sKnown, so I invited all you know
I was very committed to climatechange issues, social justice
issues and personal you know,personal issues, and so I had
psychiatrists and scientists andall kinds of amazing people
(37:23):
still connected with many ofthose people and I love doing
that.
But that's really kind of amission I would like to give
away to more people healing thewounds that separate, alienate
and marginalize us.
And how do you do that?
By doing your own shadow work,your own inner work.
(37:44):
So if you're interested in indoing that kind of work with me,
please I often have openingsand and and I am going to be
starting another online group,uh, probably in the fall so
people can join me online and ifthey're in california, they can
, or anywhere they can fly hereand do something.
(38:06):
I haven't.
I I would love to come back tolondon.
I haven't done anything therefor a long time.
So, uh, maybe somebody willcall me from your area and say
I'll sponsor you to come and anddo a program here.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
I'd love that.
I'll tell my friends as welland see if anyone can help
arrange that.
Um, is there any final thoughtsthat you would like to share,
because you know that theremight be some that you're really
dying to share with thelisteners?
Speaker 2 (38:35):
yeah, I guess you know.
The main thing is that what Isaid a little bit earlier you
have no idea of the power andthe capacity you have.
And right now, in the face ofso much change, you know we have
every major issue, from racism,enslavement, climate change,
(38:56):
war.
You know there's like 35different wars going on right
now.
We think of the big ones thatare happening, the big three or
four, but there, you know,there's all of this happening
and at the heart of it is trauma.
The heart of it is trauma.
(39:19):
And I remember back in I'm notsure what year it was, but the
riots in Watts, california, inSouthern Los Angeles, and there
was a guy named Rodney King whohad been beaten up by the police
.
You might remember that and Ialways remember his question and
I've lived with that questionever since.
I heard you said it andeverybody made fun of what he
said, said oh, that's so naive,this is how we've normalized
(39:42):
trauma.
And what he said is why can'twe just get along Now?
Is that a question to live usor what?
To me, that's the question.
It's a walking question to mewhy can't we just get along?
And the answer to that is wehave a lot of unfinished past
that we need to heal andintegrate.
(40:03):
So that's what I would say Verywise, I did say that, yes, you
(40:29):
did Amazing wise words and I'mgoing to continue enjoying your
book and I will.
Why I'm appearing on podcastsand things?
Because I really want people toto have this and to join
together in being a socialwitness in a way, so that we,
the more we do our inner work,the more capacity we have to
hold life and that's what I'mtrying to get out there to
(40:58):
people is by our own, do our ownhealing.
Every time we heal a part of us, it heals the collective and it
heals our ancestral stream,which is a whole other thing we
should do another show about,maybe definitely definitely I'm
really into that because I'mdoing shamanic training at the
moment and the stuff like theancestral stuff it's.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
so I don't know, I can feel it changing the family
and the dynamics, but, like yousaid, that's another show.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Well, that's part of, just to tell you, that's part
of my roots.
You know, I'm still on the onthe shift network and I started
out as a shamanic practitionerand I was the host of the
shamanic wisdom summit for abouteight years for the shift
network.
So I've I'm very, uh, familiarwith that work and it's
(41:45):
integrated into my own work uh,you've done so.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So many amazing things, michael, and, and and
what.
What an amazing and honeststory.
So, dear listeners, thewonderful michael stone, who's
got a very early to join us fromcalifornia and, as always, do
stay tuned as meditationinspired by today's show, but
the one and only michael stone.
Thank you, michael, thank you,thank you.
(42:11):
Top tips for the meditation iseither sit nice and cross-legged
on the floor with a nicestraight back always nice to sit
on a block or a cushion orthat's not available for you you
sit in a chair with the backnice and straight.
The important thing is you'renot slouching and if you're
doing something that requiresyou concentration, all you need
(42:31):
to do is just pause this and youcan reconvene the meditation at
a time that is good for you.
If you're doing the meditation,let's begin.
This meditation was recordedlive outside, so there may be
some background noise, but Ifeel it adds to the depth of
this meditation.
(42:52):
So which path should you go andhow to know as you embark
through life?
As you sit there with your eyesclosed and start to breathe
slowly through your nose, canyou surrender to the moment?
Whatever distractions come yourway, can you always remember to
(43:19):
have gratitude for this day.
Can you be kinder to yourself,send more love, have more faith
in the forces above.
Find joy in what you do.
Don't dwell in the past.
(43:41):
Find joy in what you do.
Don't dwell in the past.
Let it go.
Instead, allow life to flow.
Allow yourself to be seen.
Care less for what others thinkof you and sing your own song,
whatever that is.
No one knows that better deepdown than you.
There may be externaldistractions, noises, smells,
(44:07):
things to look at, things tothink at, things to touch.
I invite you to find the timeto switch off from all of these
once a day.
Allow life to unfold in its ownmagical way the smell of the
summer, the comfort of the joyof spring, the beauty of letting
(44:34):
go during fall autumn, thescent of the ground after a
summer's rain, the comfort ofdrying yourself under the side
of a warm fire in the winter.
Whatever time of year, whateverthe circumstances life is flow
(45:02):
equally.
We need to kind of ground thatkite, take a deep breath and
allow the joy of nature to befree.
Allow life to unfold and allowyourself to truly see we are
never truly alone.
So come back into the moment,come back into the room, take
(45:24):
some deep breaths and slowly goabout your day night morning.
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