September 15, 2025 • 62 mins
Have you ever considered that your anxiety isn't trying to hurt you, but actually trying to save you? This perspective-shifting conversation with author and pastor Cody Deese challenges everything we've been taught about anxiety and offers a revolutionary approach to healing.
Cody shares his remarkable 40-year journey with debilitating anxiety that began in childhood. From unexplained retching episodes at football games to panic attacks during everyday conversations, his condition remained misdiagnosed until age 40 when a therapist finally identified it as a panic disorder. This revelation marked the beginning of his healing journey and led to the insights he shares in his new book, "Discover Your Internal Universe."
The core message is both counterintuitive and liberating: anxiety is not our enemy. Rather than battling against anxiety or trying to eliminate it, Cody advocates for integration. "Anxiety can be a part of you without being all of you," he explains. By learning to observe our anxiety without identifying with it, we create space between who we are and what we're experiencing.
Throughout our conversation, Cody offers practical wisdom for those struggling with anxiety. Cody's contact details
https://www.codydeese.com
Ready to transform your relationship with anxiety? Listen now and discover how the path to healing might be found within anxiety itself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, I'm your host, the Gentle Yoga
Warrior, and this is AwakenedConscious Conversations podcast,
and this is the full-size firstepisode, and we've got a guest
Joining us shortly, from the USAis Cody Dees, and I had the
grace to read his book Discoveryour Internal Universe, which
(00:20):
I'm about 60% way through at thetime of recording this universe
, which I'm about 60% waythrough at the time of recording
this, and I felt this bookreally struck a chord with me
because it, in many ways, I feelthat it kind of inspires us to
befriend our anxiety in a waythat helps us to see where,
where we may not be.
(00:41):
I will just read what it saysabout his book on Amazon what if
anxiety is not an enemy tryingto destroy you?
What if anxiety is anunexpected ally trying to save
you?
In Discover your InternalUniverse, author and pastor,
cody Dees invites readers intothis counterintuitive shift on
(01:02):
how they can understand anxiety,challenging the common
assumption that anxiety is anillness that only ever
undermines us.
Dees demonstrates how anxietycan be helpful, guiding,
pointing us towards things thatneed our attention.
And when I had a look at Cody'sbiography on his website, I'll
(01:24):
read you the first part out.
I think it helps you understandCody as an author, speaker and
pastor, and it says you couldthink of me as a human guide for
the spiritual experience.
I am first and foremost afellow participant in life
Before anything else.
(01:45):
I am first and foremost afellow participant in life.
Before anything else, I amhuman.
I am deeply interested in whatit means to be human and my work
is centred around universalhuman flourishing.
And Cody speaks very candidlyabout his own journey through
anxiety, panic, fear, and whathe learned along that way and
(02:06):
we're going to talk today whenhe comes online about.
Is anxiety the language of thesoul and, if so, how can it help
you?
So I know so many of us sufferfrom anxiety today, so I really
hope and feel that thisconversation is going to be very
important.
It feels like it's going to beimportant because I feel
(02:27):
slightly nervous and excited atthe same time, and I tend to
feel like that when it is goingto be an important conversation.
So, joining us shortly, we willdiscover what Cody Dees has to
say upon the matter of anxiety,which I'm deeply grateful for.
So, without further ado, pleasewelcome Cody Dees to the show.
(02:51):
Welcome, cody.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh, thank you so much for having me and I appreciate
you all reaching out in yourpart of the world and being
interested in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I'm so excited.
I was telling my listenersbefore I came online.
I felt a little bit nervous anda little bit excited, and when
I feel like that, it makes mefeel like it's going to be a
good conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it will be.
I can tell by your tone we'reabout to have a good time,
people.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I can tell as well.
I know anxiety is somethingthat so many of us can suffer
from, and you've got thiswonderful book discover your
internal universe, which you'vejust got.
You just received the hardcopies, today, or recently, and
I thought what better person tospeak to us today, then, about
anxiety than yourself, cody, andwe're going to look into how,
(03:40):
instead of being our enemy,anxiety can offer us deep
healing and a connection to oursoul.
Firstly, cody, would you mindexplaining a bit about your
journey and your life so far andyour path?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, there's a lot to say.
That's a large question for meand there's a lot to say about
that.
But in the context of whatwe're talking about today, let
me just start from the beginning.
Beginning because I write alittle bit about this in the
book and obviously the tensionhere is I can't go through all
the details of this, so I wantto give you some of the
highlights, and the peculiarityof the specifics of my anxiety
(04:18):
is something that I reallywanted to draw attention to in
the book and it's something thatI want to draw attention to in
this conversation because, asyou'll see, I think it will help
people.
I know that everybody dealswith anxiety and they think
they're the only person that'sexperiencing it in the form that
they're experiencing it.
So I preface everything I'mabout to say with that Now.
That said, I have had anxietysince my earliest memories.
(04:40):
I remember sitting in aclassroom.
One of my earliest memories wassitting in a classroom.
I had to be probably firstgrade and at the time I didn't
know what was happening to me,but I had like a derealization.
Things just didn't seem realaround me and my heart was
racing and I jumped up out ofthe classroom and ran down the
hallway only to find my teacherrunning behind me and she kept
(05:03):
screaming this question hallway,only to find my teacher running
behind me and she keptscreaming this question, cody,
what's wrong, what's wrong?
And I didn't have an answer forher.
I just knew something wasn'tright.
Now fast forward.
I had an experience at afootball game as a nine-year-old
(05:23):
.
My father was a pastor, so Igrew up in like a deeply
spiritual, religious and mostpeople would probably say like
fundamental evangelicalChristian type environment, and
so my dad moved us around quitea bit, and one of the places
that we land was in a littlesmall town in Alabama called
Webb, alabama, and while we werethere, we did what we did
(05:46):
almost in every town.
We got involved in the localschool.
My mom was like a teacher's aid, and I decided to join the
little sports team there, and itwas like a little football team
that I joined in, and oneevening, on a Thursday, we
played.
On Thursdays I did what I do.
I was like the running back.
They tossed me the ball.
I took off from these giantGoliath Alabama boys because I
(06:11):
was tiny growing up.
And something happened, though,in that game as I was being
chased, which now, looking back,it all makes total sense to me,
but at the moment it did not.
But as I was being chased, Ifell on my knees and I began to
experience what I now know to bea panic attack.
Now, at the time I did not havethat language, but here's what
(06:33):
it looked like for me.
I began to have heart racing,feeling like I'm going into
cardiac arrest.
But something else happened.
I began to have a retchingepisode.
And when I say that phrase,retching episode, some people
call it dry heaving, call itwhatever you want, but it's kind
of that moment where, like, ifyou've ever been sick and
(06:53):
there's nothing left to come up,that happened and it kept
happening over and over and overagain, and so the people around
me were just like, oh, he mustnot be well, he must be sick.
And all that made sense untilthe next practice it happened
again.
And then I began to observe ithappening almost every time.
(07:16):
There was a football game.
Then it began to expand.
It was no longer a footballgame, it was school plays, it
was church plays, it was visitsto the dentist's office.
I began to see a parallelbetween that and every major
event in my life.
I could almost be certain thatif I had something to do, there
(07:39):
was going to be moments or amoment where I would have that
same feeling in that same likeform of a retching episode and,
as you can imagine, I mean as anine-year-old that was really
disturbing and perplexing.
It's like, first of all, whatis this, what's wrong with me
and how do I stop it?
And back then this would havebeen, like you know, mid 80s,
(08:04):
early 90s, we didn't have likeanxiety, wasn't you know?
It wasn't a conversation, likepeople weren't really talking
about it, and so my parents justdid what probably any parents
would do back then they justtook me to the family
practitioner and thepractitioner took blood work and
he said I don't see anythingbecause I think about anxiety,
it's invisible, you know what Imean.
Like you can't, you can't seeanything, because the thing
about anxiety it's invisible,you know what I mean.
(08:25):
Like you can't, you can't seeit.
And that's why it can be somaddening sometimes is because
you're trying to explainsomething.
That's, number one, really hardto explain.
And then, number two, you arealso trying to give language.
I was as a child to somethingthat a lot of people around me
were questioning whether I wasmaking it up for a school
(08:45):
absence or whether I had somekind of a mental problem that
they weren't aware of.
So we saw all these doctors.
I had some doctors tell me itwas Tourette's.
I had some doctors tell me that.
I had one doctor told me I hada hypersensitive gag reflex, and
that's what I decided to landon because it made sense to me,
(09:07):
and so I thought okay, thatmakes total sense.
But what began to happen overtime is it began to invade every
part of my life.
It was no longer major events.
I found myself in conversationslike with you, and I would have
to pause the conversation and Iwould just have a full retching
episode.
And so this, as you can imagine, can not only debilitate you,
(09:33):
but it can also begin to mess upyour life in many ways.
How do you go to work?
How do you carry on aconversation?
How do you function like anormal human being?
It began to take away from justbasic, simple day-to-day what
(09:53):
most people wouldn't even thinkabout, which is, when my phone
rang, do I pick it up because Imight have a retching episode.
I can't talk to anybody todaybecause I might have a retching
episode.
I can't talk to anybody todaybecause I might have a retching
episode Now.
I mentioned all of that to saythis I was 40 years old.
40 years old, that's a long timeto live with that 40 years old,
(10:15):
and for the first time atherapist said to me Cody,
that's not a hypersensitive gagreflex, cody, that's not
Tourette's, you have a panicdisorder.
And I can't tell you howliberating that moment was for
me and I know that may soundstrange maybe to some of your
(10:35):
listeners, maybe not, but I wasupset because I felt like I had
spent the first 40 years of mylife and if someone could have
told me this earlier, we mightcould have began to deal with it
.
But this is the moment thatkind of changed everything for
me.
(10:55):
And so what I've done the lastfour years of my life since
being diagnosed with a panicdisorder is I went to work to
figure out, you know, can thisbe healed?
And if it can, what's it goingto require of me?
And that's, by and large, whata good portion of this book is
about is me showing you how Itook a deep dive into this
(11:22):
particular form of anxiety thatI had and I was trying to figure
out if there was a path tohealing.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Wow, what a story, cordy, and thank you for sharing
that so honestly.
And it must have been a lot onthe shoulders of a nine-year-old
child and then to take thatinto adult life.
But the silver lining out ofall of this which has been a
difficult journey for yourself,but through your journey you've
managed to put together thisbook, which will hopefully help
(11:52):
other people.
I can relate because I wentthrough a stage when I had panic
attacks and I wasn't evenfeeling anxious at the time and
they would just come over me aswaves, especially when I was
about to teach a class.
It went on for a few years andthen it subsided.
But that's why I feel it's soimportant for people to learn
(12:13):
mechanisms, ways to kind ofnavigate through this, and so I
thank you for speaking so kindlyin your book about anxieties.
If I'm a listener and I'mlistening to you today, cody,
and I'm thinking, oh yes, I'mlistening to you today, cody,
and I'm thinking, oh yes, Isuffer from anxiety, what's the
first steps they can take intheir healing journey with this?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, that's a great question, Jane.
I have thought a lot about thatand, as you can imagine, I get
that question quite a bitalready, even though the book
hasn't released yet.
But here's what I would sayFirst, find a therapist, and
that's the most practical firststep for me, and that's what I
did.
I called every person that Iadmired, that I felt like was
(12:55):
living a life of peace, of bliss, living from a place of
wholeness, because I was like,how are they living that way?
And what I found was referencesto different therapists.
And so I went to work and I,jane, have tried so many
(13:19):
therapists.
Now I want to say this to yourlisteners, because if you're
listening and you have anxiety,you have panic disorder.
If you're listening and youhave anxiety, you have panic
disorder.
There are so many things that Itried along the way, and it's
not that none of them worked.
It's that all of them worked intheir own way to lead me to
certain understandings,perspectives and conclusions,
and a couple of thoseconclusions was first, there is
(13:42):
no simple solution, to quotehealing anxiety, unquote.
I wish I had a better good newsfor your listeners, but here's
what I can tell you.
I can't speak for your culture.
But I can tell you, for ourculture over here, we tend to
want like an instant fix foreverything.
I mean we're a pill-poppingsociety, right, like we're like
(14:04):
oh you have a problem, just popthe pill, we're good.
And what I can tell you is Itried so many things in hopes
that it would like be the savior, like I tried religion.
I did what.
(14:24):
My one point one year I readalmost 60 books on anxiety in
one year because I thought, ohmy God, these books are
promising healing.
I mean I read books that werelike hey, I can guarantee you,
if you read this and you applythese three steps, you know
you'll be healed.
You'll be healed.
(14:51):
I have tried more ancient andmodern modalities to heal
anxiety than I could ever beginto tell you, and I write about a
lot of them in the book.
I'll give you one example.
I sat down with a group offriends and they were all
talking about we were alltalking in this conversation
about anxiety, and they weretalking about how THC was like,
their cure to anxiety, and manyof them were just like oh, it
brings you a calm, you shouldtry it.
(15:11):
Well, what you listeners needto know is I grew up in an
austere, like Christianenvironment so I'd never been
around any kind of like schedule, one drugs at all, like I.
I I didn't really dabble inthat growing up.
But you know, when you haveanxiety it doesn't matter,
you'll try just about anything.
And so I thought, okay, let'stry it.
And so we're sitting down withfriends over chips and salsa and
(15:32):
I said, what do I need to do?
And they're like we got you.
And the next day there was alittle baggie dropped on my
front doorstep with like ediblesthat had THC in them and it's
one of my it's still to date oneof the most hilarious moments
in me trying all thesesubstances to heal my anxiety,
because I was such a rookie.
(15:53):
I mean this is a rookie move,but I got the bag no one gave me
any instructions, and I justlooked at it and it looked like
just like a regular little gummy.
I thought this is great, I atehalf of it.
I did get enough instruction toeat half of it, so I ate half
of it.
Didn't like, like they said,eat half of it, wait like 45
(16:14):
minutes or an hour Didn't phaseme, I ate the second half.
Didn't phase me.
And so I was like, well, I gotto do something about this.
So I not only ate the wholething, but then I turned around
and ate half of another one andI just thought you know what All
these people talking about howthis has helped them with their
anxiety and I am, leave it to meI fell into my own melodrama,
like, of course, this wouldn'twork for me, because nothing's
worked for me to heal thisanxiety.
And I went to bed and, oh my God, I woke up.
(16:39):
At least I think I woke up.
I'm still not certain if I wasstill in a dream or if I
actually did wake up, and I hada moment that I write about in
the book, but I cannot begin toexplain to you how terrifying
this was because I woke up and Idon't know if your listeners
have ever seen that movie calledMonsters Inc, called Monsters
(17:06):
Inc.
Are you familiar with this?
You have?
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay.
So there's this little guy onMonsters Inc called Mike
Wazowski.
Do you know Mike Wazowski?
He's like the one-eyed monster.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, okay, people, you're going to think this is
crazy.
Maybe not.
Your listeners may know exactlywhat I'm talking about.
But I wake up after takingthese gummies and I look and
there's a chair in the corner ofmy room and Mike Wazowski was
sitting in that chair, except hewasn't green, he was red.
And I look over at him andimmediately my heart starts
(17:34):
racing.
And then in like a split secondhe moves from the corner of the
room straight to my face andhe's like in my space and he's
just staring at me with that oneeye and I immediately fall into
just a full blown panic attack.
And if you know anything aboutTHC, you know when you sign up
(17:58):
for that meeting you can't getout of it.
Like the door is locked behindyou.
It's not like you can go downand just, you know, eat a little
food, drink a little water andyou're good.
You're in that spiral for aboutfour hours.
And so I had panic attack afterpanic attack, after panic
attack, after panic attack, forabout four hours straight.
(18:19):
I finally drifted off to sleepin the early morning hours.
I got up, picked up my bag ofgummies, edibles, I walked
downstairs, threw them away andvowed that I would never, ever,
ever again experience somethingas awful as that.
Now, I mentioned that story toyou because that's one example
of one thing I've tried of manyto say this.
It was really interestingbecause after this happened, I
(18:43):
began to see like some symbolismin it and I thought, wow, maybe
, maybe the cure to anxiety isinside the anxiety, and and
maybe what I learned throughthat experience was that,
instead of trying to eliminateanxiety, instead of trying to
move further from anxiety, whatif?
(19:03):
What if I need to go theopposite anxiety?
What if I need to go theopposite direction?
What if I need to go furtherinto the anxiety?
And what if that Mike Wazowskimonster guy, what if he was kind
of like a symbol of my anxiety?
And what you know about MikeWazowski is that he's not
actually a scary guy, he's notas scary as you think he is.
(19:25):
And when you get to know himyou begin to realize, oh, this
guy isn't out to actually harmme, he's here for a good time.
You know what I mean.
And so in many ways, as awful asthat experience was, it like
helped me see something that ispivotal all throughout the book,
which is healing anxiety, ifthere is such a thing and we can
(19:49):
talk about it, but healinganxiety is an inside job, and
what I mean by that is it willnot come from without, it will
come from within.
I had been looking for anoutside-in approach, and what I
felt like I was being invited tois more of an inside-out
(20:10):
approach, and what I would sayto your listeners is it's fine,
you know, read all the books,you can Go to all the therapists
, you can Do whatever you needto do.
I would just say this there areno quick fixes and healing is
an inside job.
So you have all you need withinyou right now to begin a
conversation with your anxietyand to begin the first steps of
(20:34):
actually healing your anxiety.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Absolutely.
That's what I really like aboutyour book.
You show all the differentstories and some of them you've
managed to share with a bit ofhumour as well, which I like.
That about it.
And before I ask the nextquestion, if I may, this really
stuck and reminded me to do thework within was a quote from
(21:01):
your book which you said you donot have to believe everything
that you think, and you alsosaid there's always space
between who we are and what weare feeling and that For me, the
healing was to find the space.
And I think this is what yourbook offers in so many ways,
(21:22):
because it shows you all thedifferent things, the process
you went through, some storiesfunny and some more challenging
and I just think, for ourlisteners who are starting out,
if they get a copy of your bookand read through, I think what
it shows to me is that we wrotewe're all, we're all in need of
(21:42):
healing and in some way andthat's okay, and which leads me
on to the next question is whydo you think so many of us feel
shameful?
Anxious?
Because I used to feel shamewhen I had the panic attacks and
, um, I was.
I was on the phone to my bestfriend saying, you know, not
that they have made me feelshame, but if you wouldn't mind
(22:04):
answering that question, that'dbe fantastic.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, that's a great question.
First of all, just a moment ofsolidarity to anyone who has
anxiety and you feel shame.
You're not alone in that.
I think there's a goodpopulation of our world right
now.
First of all, the statisticsalone of how many people write
this.
Second, the human species.
That would say they don't justhave anxiety, but they have,
(22:31):
like what I talk about in thebook.
There's a difference betweensituational anxiety and chronic
anxiety, and so many of us rightnow are living with chronic
anxiety and almost beingparalyzed.
So when we use that worddebilitating anxiety, that's not
a stretch For a lot of people.
You know they feel paralyzed bytheir anxiety, and so for many
(22:53):
of them it becomes a part oftheir identity, of who they are.
I mean, you even hear thislanguage.
I have a panic disorder, I amanxious.
There is a subtle, subtle, butmassive leap between I am
anxious and I feel anxious, andI think that's in large part
(23:14):
what I talk about in one of thechapters.
And I think that's in largepart what I talk about in one of
the chapters, which is, I think, the reason people are feeling
shame or even, for me,embarrassment.
That was a big one because Iwas like how do I explain this
to people?
A retching episode, so weird,like it's so weird.
I mean, even the doctors that Ivisited, many of them were
(23:35):
perplexed Like well, this isdifferent, and I think a part of
where the shame come from isthis, and this is the giant
realization I came through onthe other end of walking through
my internal universe to try toget to the root causes of my
anxiety.
But I came to this conclusion Ihave misunderstood anxiety and
(23:58):
that's the giant shift for me inthe book, and I think that's in
large part why a lot of peoplefeel shame is because I think we
feel shame, because ourunderstanding of anxiety leads
us to feel shame, and I thinkwhat I mean by that is.
I know for me I can only speakfrom my own experience, but I
(24:18):
was told many times that anxietywas an indication that
something was wrong with me.
I mean even the very phrasepanic disorder.
It's like, oh, something's outof order here and there's so
much shame.
There's pill shaming andthere's so much shame.
There's pill shaming, so manypeople on SSRIs right now that
(24:42):
are shamed by lots of peoplewhere you shouldn't be on those.
You should be on thosetemporarily and not at all.
And I would just like to say toyour listeners SSRIs for me was
a giant help to get me to whereI am, and I still take them
today.
I took one this morning when Igot out of bed.
I am a fan of it because itworks for me, it helps me, it
(25:02):
turns down the volume a littlebit, and what I would say is I
think people have been confusedabout medication and SSRIs and
one of the ways they've beenconfused about it is because I,
like many of them, like meprobably I just thought that
SSRIs were, you know, basicallya Band-Aid for a larger problem.
But what I realized is they'renot a band-aid for a larger
(25:24):
problem.
They give you the energy andthe wherewithal to actually
remove the band-aid that's beenon there for years.
But there's so much shamingaround pills, taking medication,
anxiety, mental health as awhole.
We're making great progress,but our world still very much so
(25:45):
, centers a lot of shame aroundit, and my own religious
upbringing wasn't any different.
In fact it might have beenworse For them.
Anxiety was an indication thatI had a weak faith, and I would
just say I write this in thebook, but I don't think it was
an indication that I had a weakfaith, and I would just say I
write this in the book, but Idon't think it was an indication
of weak faith.
In hindsight now I think it wasan indication of toxic faith.
(26:06):
I don't think, like I say,faith is not like the cure to
anxiety, but it might very wellbe a cause for anxiety and it
was for me and so I would sayfor many of us.
A good place to start, if youfeel shame for anxiety is step
into this conversation with meof shifting how we understand it
.
And a part of that's going tobe countercultural, because it's
(26:29):
not just the church world, it'snot just the faith world.
We are conditioned in ourcultures, from doctors below, to
see anxiety in a particular way, and I love that.
There is a movement happeningright now where people are
rethinking anxiety and they'rerealizing, oh, this isn't, you
know, some assassin trying tokill me.
(26:51):
Because if you see it that way,I want you to know you will
experience it that way andthat's the game changer.
How you understand anxiety willdetermine how you experience
that anxiety.
And I had to, jane.
I had to die to a particularrelationship with anxiety and
then resurrect like a brand newrelationship to anxiety, and
(27:13):
that's where I'm at now.
I don't understand anxiety theway I used to.
I don't see it as somethingthat's trying to kill me.
I see it actually as somethingthat's trying to save me, trying
to heal me, trying to guide meto what actually needs my
attention.
So the shame can be dropkickedright out of your headspace when
(27:35):
you begin to shift just alittle bit of anxiety is not
some abnormality.
Everybody has anxiety, everybody.
The question is not do you haveit?
The question is, at what levelis it at in your life?
Everybody has it.
This is what it means to behuman.
If you are a human, you haveanxiety at some level, and so
(28:04):
why would we be ashamed of that?
This is a gift that we've beengiven and it's kept the human
species alive to date, and weshould probably be like whoever
invented that anxiety, as crazyas it is and as wild as out of
control it can get sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Man, thank you for allowing me and you to be here
today and keeping the evolutionof the human species alive
perfect, absolutely, and, as youwere saying that was that was
going off in my mind is whereit's human to be anxious, and I
(28:43):
think there's kind of life ispresented, isn't it where we
should be happy all the time andif we're not feeling like and
then we failed in some way, butwhere life is feeling all the
emotions and feelings, it's justwhen it gets to chronic.
You do need like help, like themedication you take or speaking
to a therapist, etc.
But we are kind of conditionedto think that we've failed if
(29:03):
we're anxious.
But everyone gets anxious.
I, I used to work, uh, teach,yoga to a person who worked with
famous actors and they wouldget, they would be like thrown
up sometimes before they came onstage.
They were so anxious, so, andso it's a part of it's a part of
being human.
I totally agree, which leads meon I.
(29:24):
I just want to quote anotherthing I read from your book.
It says I try to use anxiety asan alarm clock for awareness,
and I just love that I was justlike yes, I'm going to put that
on my sticky note and on my deskand remember that.
So thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
It's a really helpful , helpful phrase yeah, can I,
can I say something about that?
Yeah, that's probably one of myfavorite chapters right now in
the book.
If I get as an author, I guessI can have a yes, that sounds so
narcissistic, but yeah, I, Ithat, that's so it's.
It was a game changer for me torealize that.
(30:01):
You've probably heard thisphrase, your listeners have
probably heard this phrase.
But awareness of a patternbreaks the pattern, and so I
talk about in the book the artof future, tripping this idea
that much of my anxiety wasanticipatory anxiety.
Much of my anxiety wasanticipatory anxiety.
So it was me playing outhypotheticals that was causing a
(30:24):
lot of the rise within me, theelevated heart rate, even
eventually to this form of theretching episodes.
But I had a realization.
You can even call it awareness.
I mean, eckhart Tolle talksabout the rising of
consciousness, whatever languageis helpful and you want to use.
But a part of it for me was arealization that there was the
(30:48):
anxiety attack.
But then there was the mebehind the anxiety attack,
observing the anxiety attack,and this was a giant, giant
shift for me in even how Iexperienced anxiety and it was
detrimental in turning the knobdown because what I began to
(31:11):
realize is okay.
The observer of the anxiety isnot anxious.
The observer of the panicattack is not panic.
And then it kind of was a littlebit of a mind game for me at
first because I was like wait,hold on.
Well, who is the observer?
(31:33):
And here's the problem with theobserver.
The observer is really hard topin down because the observer is
formless.
The observer doesn't havestructure.
The observer is not walkingaround in flesh and blood.
The observer is like, it feelslike it's layers, layers, layers
(31:53):
deep within me.
You can't see the observer, buteveryone knows that they have
an observer and or they are theobserver, like maybe that's who
we actually are.
I hope this makes sense better.
I think I do a much better jobwriting it out in the book, but
I mentioned that to you to justsay this anxiety is not who you
(32:16):
are, it's what you'reexperiencing and there is a
significant difference betweenthe two.
And so I would say now, when Ihave moments where, even when I
have retching episodes, I stillhave them, they just don't
control me like they used to,and a part of that is because
when I'm in the middle of it Ihave these subtle moments going
(32:38):
oh wait a minute.
There's my body and me havingthis thing.
But then this is really weird.
If I just pause in the moment,I can subtly begin to realize.
And then there's this me behindthe me that is perfectly calm
(33:01):
watching all this happen, andthat is a beautiful thing to
become aware of in the midst ofa panic attack.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, it does, it does and it's so helpful and you
do explain it really well inthat chapter as well as you did
now.
And yeah, it's kind of we getattached to kind of labeling
like this is how, how I am.
But if we can be the observerobserving, then it kind of gives
us I don't know that space tokind of like get out, get out of
(33:39):
just deciding that's how we are, if that makes sense.
I've said a bit clunky in myresponse no, I think that's
beautifully well, well said,yeah so I look, if our listeners
are lost in anxieties and whatis, could you give them a kind
of tip that they could do?
I guess you've just given themone, but maybe something else.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, here's what I would say For your listeners
lost in anxiety.
Step one feel it, just feel it.
That is the easiest step to doand many of your listeners, if
they have anxiety, they're likewell, I already do that.
Yeah, I know, don't resist that.
Feel it, feel all of it, sitwith it, find a space.
(34:24):
If you feel anxious, find aspace.
I always like to put my hand onthe parts of my body where I
feel the anxiety the most.
So for me, I have a spot it'skind of lower throat, right at
the beginning of the chest,which makes sense, right, I'm
having retching episodes.
So sometimes I'll do this andthen I'll put my hand over my
(34:50):
throat as well and I will feelit, just feel it like.
Feel it in your body and I letit do what it needs to do, what
it wants to do.
That old saying what you resistpersist.
The reason that's an old sayingis because it's true.
(35:12):
That's why all the warmetaphors for anxiety oh God,
like that's not helpful.
At least it wasn't for me.
Yeah, I'm not going to battlewith my anxiety.
You go to battle with youranxiety, and anxiety will win
every time exactly every time.
I'm not going to battle with it.
Because why are you going tobattle with it?
Because it's not trying to hurtme.
(35:35):
Anxiety is trying to protect me.
Anxiety is trying to protect me, and so I approach it as
someone that's not trying toharm me.
I approach it as oh what ifthis isn't an enemy trying to
kill me?
What if this is the way my bodyspeaks?
(35:55):
What if this was the languageof the soul?
What if this is all that iswithin me?
You call it whatever you wantto.
I call it the internal universein my book, that being the
psyche, the mind, the heart, gut, whatever unconscious,
subconscious.
What if this is one of the waysthat it communicates to us?
(36:18):
And so I would say to yourlisteners just feel it, find it
in your body, put your hand onthat spot, let yourself be
anxious.
One of my favorite quotes in thebook is from Alan Watts.
Alan Watts says one is a greatdeal less anxious if one feels
(36:45):
perfectly free to be anxious.
One is a great deal lessanxious if one feels perfectly
free to be anxious.
And so I would say start there.
And then I would say feel it,then don't try to eliminate it.
Integrate it, and that's a bigshift that I write about in the
book.
I came to a place where Istopped trying to eliminate my
(37:09):
anxiety and I startedintegrating it, and what I mean
by that is anxiety has a roleand function, and what you need
to know is anxiety can be a partof you without being all of you
, and what you need to know isanxiety can be a part of you
without being all of you.
Anxiety can be present withinyou and not actually overcome
(37:30):
you, and so let it have a seatat the table it just doesn't
have to control the entiremeeting and so feel it, welcome
it, and you may have to talk toit.
I do that.
What I realized as I got deeperinto my anxiety and the roots
(37:51):
underneath it is that in manyways, it was actually my own
inner child screaming out for me.
There's an old Cherokee proverbthat I write in the book that
sometimes the body whispers, andif you don't listen to the
whisper, it will eventuallyscream.
And, and I think that's a shiftthat a large part of our
(38:13):
culture is going through rightnow.
We're all, many of us, many ofus not all of us, but many of us
have been conditioned to livefrom our heads and I think maybe
the reason the nervous systemis throwing up signals and
trying to get our attention isbecause I think it's a larger
cultural shift in humanity thatwe are, as a society, moving
(38:39):
gradually from our heads to ourbodies and we're learning that a
lot of what we were taughtabout our bodies just isn't true
.
It just isn't true.
I know for me.
My religious people told me God,I could not trust myself.
You are a depraved, brokenhuman.
(39:07):
And that's 101.
If your listeners don't knowanything about, like American
evangelicalism, 101 in Americanevangelicalism is you have to
stand up and acknowledge you area sinner, which just means, oh
man, I was born broken.
What kind of a message is that?
How is that good news?
It's not I was born broken andtheir good news is but I have
(39:29):
the solution.
No, and that's not even what.
For your listeners that careabout these things, that's not
even what Jesus taught while hewas here.
If Jesus taught us anything,it's he came to reveal what has
been true about humanity thewhole time, which is we've
always been one with the divine.
(39:50):
It's always been good to be you.
It's always been good to be me.
It's always been good to behuman.
It's always been good to behere, present, right now, in all
the quirkiness of you, and soyou're not inherently broken and
(40:11):
separated from the divine.
We're not born that way.
We aren't that way.
We are born whole and unitedwith the divine, made of the
divine, and I think that's ashift that's happening in our
(40:34):
culture right now is that we'reall coming to this moment of
epiphany, awareness arising ofconsciousness, going wow, look
how sacred we are, look howsacred this is.
And it's not just religion, ourculture, I mean.
You hear it all the time, youknow a tragedy happens, you're
(40:56):
like, well, he's just a human.
What a low view of humanity.
We need to counter that andelevate that.
People aren't doing tragediesand atrocities because they're
human.
They're doing it because theyforget that they're human.
We have lost sight of thesacredness of what it means to
(41:22):
be a human, and we'veexperienced that this week in
America.
For the listeners over therethat don't know, you know
there's a lot happening in ournation right now and I can tell
you that the collective body,and I can tell you that the
collective body, the collectivenervous system, is screaming at
(41:45):
us right now and I think it's aninvitation, an invitation to
listen, to go down in it, tofeel it and to see what might be
down there in the collectiveunconscious of our nation, of
our world.
And let's see what might bewanting to surface.
(42:09):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Absolutely, and it's kind of I was going to ask you
about this and this has beenreally helpful to listen to,
because I feel my anxiety thesedays comes from what's happening
in the world, like I know forthings that have happened this
week in America, but in the UKas well, and all different
countries.
There's different problems butlots of awful things happening.
(42:33):
And it's sometimes it I'mthinking of, you know, kind of
trying to help people and be thebest version of myself, and
then if I read something and itit's and I just see people in
power kind of doing all theseawful, awful things.
It's sometimes hard, isn't it,to kind of step away from that
(42:55):
kind of anxiety and which leadson from what you were saying, to
do like the collectiveconsciousness and it's screaming
out for our help.
How can we navigate throughthat?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
yeah, well, I think the easiest answer to that, or
the quickest answer they get,would be to do our own personal
work.
Yeah, we.
This is this my hope is for thebook is I think the collective
is a mirror of the individual,so the collective is a bunch of
(43:30):
individuals, and so if we canget more individuals doing their
own personal internal work,then eventually it will show
itself in the collective, andthat's my hope for even why I
write this.
Discovering your internaluniverse that's the whole point.
That's why I believe anxietywas there to begin with in me is
to show me some things that,first of all, I didn't even know
(43:52):
were inside of me and then,second things that just needed
my attention wounds, relationalwounds, unprocessed grief,
fear-based religion that neededto be healed, so much within me
that I didn't know resided, thatsat right there on the surface
(44:13):
of my unconscious and it neededattention.
And I believe that's true forus as a collective right now.
You know, in many ways, in manyways, I'm holding all the
emotions I mean this week foryour listeners that don't know.
But you know, a far rightpolitical commentator was gunned
(44:37):
down at a university.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
It's awful.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
We also have had multiple mass shootings, school
shootings recently oh, I didn'tknow about that All at the same
time, one in Colorado, one inMinnesota.
We had, not that long ago, apolitician and her husband
gunned down in their own home.
I mean, violence right now inAmerica is just surfacing to
(45:01):
levels that you know I'munfamiliar with in my 44 years
of being on this part of theworld, and you know there's a
lot of people living in fear,and rightfully so.
Again, it's not trying to harmus, it's here to tell us
something, it's here to protectus.
It's here to tell us something,it's here to protect us.
(45:23):
And so I would just say let'slean into this moment, let's do
our own personal work and then Iwould say, let's begin to see
collectively what might try tobe surfacing.
I know for America, I can onlyspeak for us, but it's a scary
(45:44):
time, not just for Americans butfor a lot of us.
I mean, there is a dozen or soworld leaders right now that I
don't even know how they gottheir positions, and it's
terrifying because these arepeople that don't have.
They have very little emotionalmaturity, if any, and they're
(46:07):
navigating these countries andthey have access to so much
power, and and what I will tellyou is, is that somehow I'm
trusting and believing that.
There's an old Eckhart Tollequote that I love.
He said life will give youwhatever you need for the
(46:28):
evolution of your consciousness.
He goes on to say how do youknow?
This is what you need, becausethis is what you are
experiencing.
And so, like me and our littlecollective out here where I live
in America, we're working hardfor justice.
We're working hard to exposethe things that need to be
exposed, and that's what I loveabout.
(46:49):
I try to write about both thatin the book, because I want your
listeners to know you can doyour own internal inner work,
your own shadow work, andsimultaneously, at the same time
, call out the unconscious actsof other people who haven't done
their own shadow work, and Ithink we have to do both.
I think we have to do both, andso in America, right now, I
(47:10):
will tell you our president andthis is where I am he is the
unedited version of who Americareally is.
We've been denying it, we'vebeen acting like we're God's
greatest gift to the planet, andthe reality is is that isn't
true, and I know that becauseour history tells me that, and
(47:31):
so what I believe is happeningright now is to see.
We're getting a flesh and bloodvisual of the collective
unconscious of our nation, andwhat's rising to the surface is
(47:52):
bigotry, racism.
What's rising to the surface ismisogyny, homophobic actions.
All of this is rising to thesurface and as hard as it is to
see, I think if we're capableand able, we must not only see
it, but we must acknowledge it.
(48:15):
There's a great Franciscanpriest out in New Mexico that I
admire.
His name is Richard Rohr.
Richard Rohr said you cannotheal what you do not acknowledge
.
And I think, ever so gradually,we're seeing what we need to
see so we can acknowledge whatwe need to acknowledge, so we
(48:38):
can begin to heal what we needto heal oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
That's very moving, actually, very wise words.
It kind of makes you feel it'sdifferent problems but also very
similar, because the way the ukhas been run at the moment it's
it's just they just take,they're just squeezing everyone.
So, financially, everyone'sreally really feeling it.
(49:04):
There's a lot of like unrestand I really can't relate to our
prime minister.
That's just my personal view.
Listeners, so is it?
You know, the thing is, we'reall.
I think it's really importantthat people can have different
opinions and just because wedon't all agree like some
listeners might listen and notagree with me and might not
agree with yourself, or theymight agree, and I think it's
really important that peoplehave discussions because I think
(49:27):
that's what keeps us human andit's very, very important that
happens.
So, dear listeners, maybe youlove the prime minister.
That's great.
This doesn't make you a badperson.
In the same way, doesn't makeme a bad person if I don't
relate to him.
So, cody, what do you mind?
I'm a listener.
I want to buy your book.
Do you want to share a bit fromyour book?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Would love to.
There's like a couple of places.
If I had time I'd be like ohman, let's read that section,
let's read that section.
But I'm going to read it'stowards the end of the book two
paragraphs.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Thank you this is page 216.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Think about the moments in your life you thought
were going to end you.
Yet you are still here.
Look at you.
Despite all the anxiety youhave experienced, you keep
getting out of bed in themorning and walking into your
day.
With each step, you are showinganxiety its proper place within
(50:32):
you.
Life is hard enough when thingsare going well, tag on
debilitating moments of chronicanxiety and it can feel nearly
impossible to survive.
Yet you have.
You are resilient, courageousand stronger than perhaps you
(50:54):
realize.
Give yourself credit.
It's not easy being human.
It's not easy being human.
It's not easy being you.
It's not easy being here.
Yet you have survived,prevailed, conquered and on your
best days you have even soared.
(51:15):
You are trusting, one step at atime.
I'm proud of you.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Oh, thank you, Cody.
I felt quite emotionallistening to that.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, my hope.
I read that for all of yourlisteners who have lived with
anxiety for years.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah, I can relate to that.
When I was listening to it itmade me feel accepted.
So thank you, I reallyappreciate that If I'm, if I am
a listener and I feel like Iwant to get a copy of your book.
It's on all the major platforms, isn't it?
Not like Amazon's generallyworldwide?
(52:00):
But I think for those that I'vegot american listeners, well,
barnes and noble and places likethat and I guess, if, if, if
you go to your bookstore andthey haven't got it, they can
order it in as well.
But yes definitely on amazonworldwide, and it's out on the
9th of October called Discoveryour Internal Universe by Cody
(52:21):
Dees.
Just one final question Isthere anything else that you
would like to share with ourlisteners today?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I would point to.
In the book at the very end Igive a list of resources that
have inspired a lot of my ownthinking, and so I would
encourage people, when they pickup the book, to go there and
read some of those resources.
One that I would justacknowledge right now for those
that are listening.
They're like oh, I want to hearmore about this.
I'm not a therapist.
I need to be clear about that.
(52:50):
I try to say it everywhere I go.
It's my first line in the book.
Actually, I say I'm not atherapist, and that's important
because there's a lot of, likeyou know, tiktok influencers
that are posing as therapistsand that's not helpful and a lot
of times it just creates moreanxiety.
So I want you to know that I'mnot a therapist.
I come and I write as a fellowparticipant in the human
experience, someone that's livedwith anxiety for a while Now.
(53:12):
That said, I would encourageyou to read a real doctor's
explanation and understanding alot of what I talked about today
, and if you want to do that, drRussell Kennedy's book Anxiety
Rx is what I highly recommend.
That book is essentially themechanics behind what I'm
(53:35):
working out in my book, and sosave yourself a doctor's visit
and grab that book, because itrevolutionized a lot for me.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Oh, thank you, I'll put.
I'll put.
I'll include that in the shownotes as well as a link to your,
to your book, your churchonline as well, if you're in a
different part of the world ordo you have to be in your
hometown to join.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
No, no, no, it's, it's all out there.
Yeah, we didn't talk about that, which is fine.
I'm totally happy with that.
But for your listeners somecall me a pastor, I call myself
a teacher of an ever-evolvingspiritual collective where we
have this little community rightoutside of Atlanta, georgia,
which is where I live and ourlittle community is we always
say we're just waking up tobeauty, truth and goodness
(54:19):
wherever it's found, and we havethe conversations that we need
to have.
But people can go and checkthat out.
Honestly, just the website,codydesecom and all the info's
there.
Yeah, and I'm doing a littlebook tour.
It's coming up.
So I don't think I'm overseasyet, but maybe soon.
So, but I'm doing like anAmerican little book tour, so
(54:39):
that's coming up and all thosedetails are on the site as well.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Oh, perfect, because some of my listeners are in the
US as well, so that would bebrilliant.
Oh, cody, it's been so great totalk to you and I feel like
I've learned a lot.
It's always my pleasure to havewonderful guests like yourself,
but this felt really close toheart with the anxiety thing.
So I just want to thank you fortaking the time and your
morning because I know it'smorning over there to talk to us
(55:02):
today, and I just want to say abig thank you from myself and
my listeners awesome.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Well, thank you so much, and thank you for the work
you do in the world.
It's making a difference andI'm grateful to be a part of it
thank you very much, cody.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Thank you, so do stay tuned, listeners.
As always, there's a guidedmeditation inspired by today's
show, but the one and only CodyDees, thank you.
Top tips for the meditation iseither sit nice and cross-legged
on the floor with a nicestraight back Always nice to sit
on a block or a cushion,although that's not available
for you, you sit in a chair withthe back nice and straight.
(55:37):
The important thing is you'renot slouching, and if you're
doing something that requiresyour concentration, all you need
to do is just pause this andyou can reconvene the meditation
at a time that is good for youIf you're doing the meditation.
Let's begin In this guidedmeditation today.
Imagine you're sitting in themost wonderful room, a room that
(56:01):
you either from yourimagination or room that you
have been in before.
But you imagine that you are inthis room and it's a room that
you find great comfort in.
And as you sit in this room,you take in the colors of the
walls, the textures of thefabric, how the light cascades
(56:22):
into the room, and it's a placethat you feel a deep sense of
comfort.
In many ways, the beauty ofthis room is a symbol of the
self-love, the self-love that weso often forget, or the
self-love that we haveexperienced before but forgotten
(56:45):
Either way.
This room symbolises theself-love that you so lovingly
deserve and to help heal theworld at the same time.
So we heal ourselves and thenwe help send that healing to the
world, knowing that you'reperfect and beautiful just as
(57:07):
you are.
The refuge of this room offersgreat comfort and healing, and
the more you just allow yourselfand your imagination to sit in
the room, the more the lovebuilds so from your energetic
heart center, which is known asthe heart chakra in yoga, but in
(57:27):
all different forms of beliefs,faiths and healing.
Just imagine it is a kind ofbeautiful energy of love, this
self-love.
And as you sit softly in thisroom, you allow this self-love
to begin to encircle your beingin a gentle way.
(57:50):
You feel as if it surrounds youand holds you, as if you're
held by the most wonderfulfabric that offers great comfort
and joy to your being.
And this fabric feels like itholds you so beautifully and you
feel as if you are calm andrelaxed in it.
(58:11):
And as this self-love begins togrow, it reminds you of things
about yourself that you like,things that you may or may not
remember, for we all have thisbeautiful love within us.
Just allow those things to beremembered.
Even remember at a pace that isright for you, and don't worry
(58:37):
if you don't remember.
Just allow the feeling of loveto grow.
So all you're going to do forthe, for the next few minutes,
is just take some calm, deepbreaths in this room and just
imagine that love growing andgrowing.
Thank you, the, the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the, the,
(59:33):
the, the, the, the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, the, the, the,the.
(59:57):
So, from this beautiful place,can you imagine that the love
that you receive from yourselfyou send out into the world, and
then that love comes back toyou.
So you feel as if the love thatyou have generated by being
(01:00:17):
still you receive, but you sendit out into the world, and then
the world remembers about lovetoo and sends it back to you.
And you can just continue thiswith slow, calm, deep breathing,
and then slowly and calmly comeback into the room, come back
into the moment, rememberingthat you are the essence of love
(01:00:40):
.
Hello everybody, I'm your host, the Gentle Yoga
Warrior, and this is AwakenedConscious Conversations podcast,
and this is the full-size firstepisode, and we've got a guest
Joining us shortly, from the USAis Cody Dees, and I had the
grace to read his book Discoveryour Internal Universe, which
(00:20):
I'm about 60% way through at thetime of recording this universe
, which I'm about 60% waythrough at the time of recording
this, and I felt this bookreally struck a chord with me
because it, in many ways, I feelthat it kind of inspires us to
befriend our anxiety in a waythat helps us to see where,
where we may not be.
(00:41):
I will just read what it saysabout his book on Amazon what if
anxiety is not an enemy tryingto destroy you?
What if anxiety is anunexpected ally trying to save
you?
In Discover your InternalUniverse, author and pastor,
cody Dees invites readers intothis counterintuitive shift on
(01:02):
how they can understand anxiety,challenging the common
assumption that anxiety is anillness that only ever
undermines us.
Dees demonstrates how anxietycan be helpful, guiding,
pointing us towards things thatneed our attention.
And when I had a look at Cody'sbiography on his website, I'll
(01:24):
read you the first part out.
I think it helps you understandCody as an author, speaker and
pastor, and it says you couldthink of me as a human guide for
the spiritual experience.
I am first and foremost afellow participant in life
Before anything else.
(01:45):
I am first and foremost afellow participant in life.
Before anything else, I amhuman.
I am deeply interested in whatit means to be human and my work
is centred around universalhuman flourishing.
And Cody speaks very candidlyabout his own journey through
anxiety, panic, fear, and whathe learned along that way and
(02:06):
we're going to talk today whenhe comes online about.
Is anxiety the language of thesoul and, if so, how can it help
you?
So I know so many of us sufferfrom anxiety today, so I really
hope and feel that thisconversation is going to be very
important.
It feels like it's going to beimportant because I feel
(02:27):
slightly nervous and excited atthe same time, and I tend to
feel like that when it is goingto be an important conversation.
So, joining us shortly, we willdiscover what Cody Dees has to
say upon the matter of anxiety,which I'm deeply grateful for.
So, without further ado, pleasewelcome Cody Dees to the show.
(02:51):
Welcome, cody.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh, thank you so much for having me and I appreciate
you all reaching out in yourpart of the world and being
interested in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
I'm so excited.
I was telling my listenersbefore I came online.
I felt a little bit nervous anda little bit excited, and when
I feel like that, it makes mefeel like it's going to be a
good conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it will be.
I can tell by your tone we'reabout to have a good time,
people.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I can tell as well.
I know anxiety is somethingthat so many of us can suffer
from, and you've got thiswonderful book discover your
internal universe, which you'vejust got.
You just received the hardcopies, today, or recently, and
I thought what better person tospeak to us today, then, about
anxiety than yourself, cody, andwe're going to look into how,
(03:40):
instead of being our enemy,anxiety can offer us deep
healing and a connection to oursoul.
Firstly, cody, would you mindexplaining a bit about your
journey and your life so far andyour path?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Well, there's a lot to say.
That's a large question for meand there's a lot to say about
that.
But in the context of whatwe're talking about today, let
me just start from the beginning.
Beginning because I write alittle bit about this in the
book and obviously the tensionhere is I can't go through all
the details of this, so I wantto give you some of the
highlights, and the peculiarityof the specifics of my anxiety
(04:18):
is something that I reallywanted to draw attention to in
the book and it's something thatI want to draw attention to in
this conversation because, asyou'll see, I think it will help
people.
I know that everybody dealswith anxiety and they think
they're the only person that'sexperiencing it in the form that
they're experiencing it.
So I preface everything I'mabout to say with that Now.
That said, I have had anxietysince my earliest memories.
(04:40):
I remember sitting in aclassroom.
One of my earliest memories wassitting in a classroom.
I had to be probably firstgrade and at the time I didn't
know what was happening to me,but I had like a derealization.
Things just didn't seem realaround me and my heart was
racing and I jumped up out ofthe classroom and ran down the
hallway only to find my teacherrunning behind me and she kept
(05:03):
screaming this question hallway,only to find my teacher running
behind me and she keptscreaming this question, cody,
what's wrong, what's wrong?
And I didn't have an answer forher.
I just knew something wasn'tright.
Now fast forward.
I had an experience at afootball game as a nine-year-old
(05:23):
.
My father was a pastor, so Igrew up in like a deeply
spiritual, religious and mostpeople would probably say like
fundamental evangelicalChristian type environment, and
so my dad moved us around quitea bit, and one of the places
that we land was in a littlesmall town in Alabama called
Webb, alabama, and while we werethere, we did what we did
(05:46):
almost in every town.
We got involved in the localschool.
My mom was like a teacher's aid, and I decided to join the
little sports team there, and itwas like a little football team
that I joined in, and oneevening, on a Thursday, we
played.
On Thursdays I did what I do.
I was like the running back.
They tossed me the ball.
I took off from these giantGoliath Alabama boys because I
(06:11):
was tiny growing up.
And something happened, though,in that game as I was being
chased, which now, looking back,it all makes total sense to me,
but at the moment it did not.
But as I was being chased, Ifell on my knees and I began to
experience what I now know to bea panic attack.
Now, at the time I did not havethat language, but here's what
(06:33):
it looked like for me.
I began to have heart racing,feeling like I'm going into
cardiac arrest.
But something else happened.
I began to have a retchingepisode.
And when I say that phrase,retching episode, some people
call it dry heaving, call itwhatever you want, but it's kind
of that moment where, like, ifyou've ever been sick and
(06:53):
there's nothing left to come up,that happened and it kept
happening over and over and overagain, and so the people around
me were just like, oh, he mustnot be well, he must be sick.
And all that made sense untilthe next practice it happened
again.
And then I began to observe ithappening almost every time.
(07:16):
There was a football game.
Then it began to expand.
It was no longer a footballgame, it was school plays, it
was church plays, it was visitsto the dentist's office.
I began to see a parallelbetween that and every major
event in my life.
I could almost be certain thatif I had something to do, there
(07:39):
was going to be moments or amoment where I would have that
same feeling in that same likeform of a retching episode and,
as you can imagine, I mean as anine-year-old that was really
disturbing and perplexing.
It's like, first of all, whatis this, what's wrong with me
and how do I stop it?
And back then this would havebeen, like you know, mid 80s,
(08:04):
early 90s, we didn't have likeanxiety, wasn't you know?
It wasn't a conversation, likepeople weren't really talking
about it, and so my parents justdid what probably any parents
would do back then they justtook me to the family
practitioner and thepractitioner took blood work and
he said I don't see anythingbecause I think about anxiety,
it's invisible, you know what Imean.
Like you can't, you can't seeanything, because the thing
about anxiety it's invisible,you know what I mean.
(08:25):
Like you can't, you can't seeit.
And that's why it can be somaddening sometimes is because
you're trying to explainsomething.
That's, number one, really hardto explain.
And then, number two, you arealso trying to give language.
I was as a child to somethingthat a lot of people around me
were questioning whether I wasmaking it up for a school
(08:45):
absence or whether I had somekind of a mental problem that
they weren't aware of.
So we saw all these doctors.
I had some doctors tell me itwas Tourette's.
I had some doctors tell me that.
I had one doctor told me I hada hypersensitive gag reflex, and
that's what I decided to landon because it made sense to me,
(09:07):
and so I thought okay, thatmakes total sense.
But what began to happen overtime is it began to invade every
part of my life.
It was no longer major events.
I found myself in conversationslike with you, and I would have
to pause the conversation and Iwould just have a full retching
episode.
And so this, as you can imagine, can not only debilitate you,
(09:33):
but it can also begin to mess upyour life in many ways.
How do you go to work?
How do you carry on aconversation?
How do you function like anormal human being?
It began to take away from justbasic, simple day-to-day what
(09:53):
most people wouldn't even thinkabout, which is, when my phone
rang, do I pick it up because Imight have a retching episode.
I can't talk to anybody todaybecause I might have a retching
episode.
I can't talk to anybody todaybecause I might have a retching
episode Now.
I mentioned all of that to saythis I was 40 years old.
40 years old, that's a long timeto live with that 40 years old,
(10:15):
and for the first time atherapist said to me Cody,
that's not a hypersensitive gagreflex, cody, that's not
Tourette's, you have a panicdisorder.
And I can't tell you howliberating that moment was for
me and I know that may soundstrange maybe to some of your
(10:35):
listeners, maybe not, but I wasupset because I felt like I had
spent the first 40 years of mylife and if someone could have
told me this earlier, we mightcould have began to deal with it
.
But this is the moment thatkind of changed everything for
me.
(10:55):
And so what I've done the lastfour years of my life since
being diagnosed with a panicdisorder is I went to work to
figure out, you know, can thisbe healed?
And if it can, what's it goingto require of me?
And that's, by and large, whata good portion of this book is
about is me showing you how Itook a deep dive into this
(11:22):
particular form of anxiety thatI had and I was trying to figure
out if there was a path tohealing.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Wow, what a story, cordy, and thank you for sharing
that so honestly.
And it must have been a lot onthe shoulders of a nine-year-old
child and then to take thatinto adult life.
But the silver lining out ofall of this which has been a
difficult journey for yourself,but through your journey you've
managed to put together thisbook, which will hopefully help
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other people.
I can relate because I wentthrough a stage when I had panic
attacks and I wasn't evenfeeling anxious at the time and
they would just come over me aswaves, especially when I was
about to teach a class.
It went on for a few years andthen it subsided.
But that's why I feel it's soimportant for people to learn
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mechanisms, ways to kind ofnavigate through this, and so I
thank you for speaking so kindlyin your book about anxieties.
If I'm a listener and I'mlistening to you today, cody,
and I'm thinking, oh yes, I'mlistening to you today, cody,
and I'm thinking, oh yes, Isuffer from anxiety, what's the
first steps they can take intheir healing journey with this?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, that's a great question, Jane.
I have thought a lot about thatand, as you can imagine, I get
that question quite a bitalready, even though the book
hasn't released yet.
But here's what I would sayFirst, find a therapist, and
that's the most practical firststep for me, and that's what I
did.
I called every person that Iadmired, that I felt like was
(12:55):
living a life of peace, of bliss, living from a place of
wholeness, because I was like,how are they living that way?
And what I found was referencesto different therapists.
And so I went to work and I,jane, have tried so many
(13:19):
therapists.
Now I want to say this to yourlisteners, because if you're
listening and you have anxiety,you have panic disorder.
If you're listening and youhave anxiety, you have panic
disorder.
There are so many things that Itried along the way, and it's
not that none of them worked.
It's that all of them worked intheir own way to lead me to
certain understandings,perspectives and conclusions,
and a couple of thoseconclusions was first, there is
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no simple solution, to quotehealing anxiety, unquote.
I wish I had a better good newsfor your listeners, but here's
what I can tell you.
I can't speak for your culture.
But I can tell you, for ourculture over here, we tend to
want like an instant fix foreverything.
I mean we're a pill-poppingsociety, right, like we're like
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oh you have a problem, just popthe pill, we're good.
And what I can tell you is Itried so many things in hopes
that it would like be the savior, like I tried religion.
I did what.
(14:24):
My one point one year I readalmost 60 books on anxiety in
one year because I thought, ohmy God, these books are
promising healing.
I mean I read books that werelike hey, I can guarantee you,
if you read this and you applythese three steps, you know
you'll be healed.
You'll be healed.
(14:51):
I have tried more ancient andmodern modalities to heal
anxiety than I could ever beginto tell you, and I write about a
lot of them in the book.
I'll give you one example.
I sat down with a group offriends and they were all
talking about we were alltalking in this conversation
about anxiety, and they weretalking about how THC was like,
their cure to anxiety, and manyof them were just like oh, it
brings you a calm, you shouldtry it.
(15:11):
Well, what you listeners needto know is I grew up in an
austere, like Christianenvironment so I'd never been
around any kind of like schedule, one drugs at all, like I.
I I didn't really dabble inthat growing up.
But you know, when you haveanxiety it doesn't matter,
you'll try just about anything.
And so I thought, okay, let'stry it.
And so we're sitting down withfriends over chips and salsa and
(15:32):
I said, what do I need to do?
And they're like we got you.
And the next day there was alittle baggie dropped on my
front doorstep with like ediblesthat had THC in them and it's
one of my it's still to date oneof the most hilarious moments
in me trying all thesesubstances to heal my anxiety,
because I was such a rookie.
(15:53):
I mean this is a rookie move,but I got the bag no one gave me
any instructions, and I justlooked at it and it looked like
just like a regular little gummy.
I thought this is great, I atehalf of it.
I did get enough instruction toeat half of it, so I ate half
of it.
Didn't like, like they said,eat half of it, wait like 45
(16:14):
minutes or an hour Didn't phaseme, I ate the second half.
Didn't phase me.
And so I was like, well, I gotto do something about this.
So I not only ate the wholething, but then I turned around
and ate half of another one andI just thought you know what All
these people talking about howthis has helped them with their
anxiety and I am, leave it to meI fell into my own melodrama,
like, of course, this wouldn'twork for me, because nothing's
worked for me to heal thisanxiety.
And I went to bed and, oh my God, I woke up.
(16:39):
At least I think I woke up.
I'm still not certain if I wasstill in a dream or if I
actually did wake up, and I hada moment that I write about in
the book, but I cannot begin toexplain to you how terrifying
this was because I woke up and Idon't know if your listeners
have ever seen that movie calledMonsters Inc, called Monsters
(17:06):
Inc.
Are you familiar with this?
You have?
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay,okay.
So there's this little guy onMonsters Inc called Mike
Wazowski.
Do you know Mike Wazowski?
He's like the one-eyed monster.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Yeah, okay, people, you're going to think this is
crazy.
Maybe not.
Your listeners may know exactlywhat I'm talking about.
But I wake up after takingthese gummies and I look and
there's a chair in the corner ofmy room and Mike Wazowski was
sitting in that chair, except hewasn't green, he was red.
And I look over at him andimmediately my heart starts
(17:34):
racing.
And then in like a split secondhe moves from the corner of the
room straight to my face andhe's like in my space and he's
just staring at me with that oneeye and I immediately fall into
just a full blown panic attack.
And if you know anything aboutTHC, you know when you sign up
(17:58):
for that meeting you can't getout of it.
Like the door is locked behindyou.
It's not like you can go downand just, you know, eat a little
food, drink a little water andyou're good.
You're in that spiral for aboutfour hours.
And so I had panic attack afterpanic attack, after panic
attack, after panic attack, forabout four hours straight.
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I finally drifted off to sleepin the early morning hours.
I got up, picked up my bag ofgummies, edibles, I walked
downstairs, threw them away andvowed that I would never, ever,
ever again experience somethingas awful as that.
Now, I mentioned that story toyou because that's one example
of one thing I've tried of manyto say this.
It was really interestingbecause after this happened, I
(18:43):
began to see like some symbolismin it and I thought, wow, maybe
, maybe the cure to anxiety isinside the anxiety, and and
maybe what I learned throughthat experience was that,
instead of trying to eliminateanxiety, instead of trying to
move further from anxiety, whatif?
(19:03):
What if I need to go theopposite anxiety?
What if I need to go theopposite direction?
What if I need to go furtherinto the anxiety?
And what if that Mike Wazowskimonster guy, what if he was kind
of like a symbol of my anxiety?
And what you know about MikeWazowski is that he's not
actually a scary guy, he's notas scary as you think he is.
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And when you get to know himyou begin to realize, oh, this
guy isn't out to actually harmme, he's here for a good time.
You know what I mean.
And so in many ways, as awful asthat experience was, it like
helped me see something that ispivotal all throughout the book,
which is healing anxiety, ifthere is such a thing and we can
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talk about it, but healinganxiety is an inside job, and
what I mean by that is it willnot come from without, it will
come from within.
I had been looking for anoutside-in approach, and what I
felt like I was being invited tois more of an inside-out
(20:10):
approach, and what I would sayto your listeners is it's fine,
you know, read all the books,you can Go to all the therapists
, you can Do whatever you needto do.
I would just say this there areno quick fixes and healing is
an inside job.
So you have all you need withinyou right now to begin a
conversation with your anxietyand to begin the first steps of
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actually healing your anxiety.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
Absolutely.
That's what I really like aboutyour book.
You show all the differentstories and some of them you've
managed to share with a bit ofhumour as well, which I like.
That about it.
And before I ask the nextquestion, if I may, this really
stuck and reminded me to do thework within was a quote from
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your book which you said you donot have to believe everything
that you think, and you alsosaid there's always space
between who we are and what weare feeling and that For me, the
healing was to find the space.
And I think this is what yourbook offers in so many ways,
(21:22):
because it shows you all thedifferent things, the process
you went through, some storiesfunny and some more challenging
and I just think, for ourlisteners who are starting out,
if they get a copy of your bookand read through, I think what
it shows to me is that we wrotewe're all, we're all in need of
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healing and in some way andthat's okay, and which leads me
on to the next question is whydo you think so many of us feel
shameful?
Anxious?
Because I used to feel shamewhen I had the panic attacks and
, um, I was.
I was on the phone to my bestfriend saying, you know, not
that they have made me feelshame, but if you wouldn't mind
(22:04):
answering that question, that'dbe fantastic.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, that's a great question.
First of all, just a moment ofsolidarity to anyone who has
anxiety and you feel shame.
You're not alone in that.
I think there's a goodpopulation of our world right
now.
First of all, the statisticsalone of how many people write
this.
Second, the human species.
That would say they don't justhave anxiety, but they have,
(22:31):
like what I talk about in thebook.
There's a difference betweensituational anxiety and chronic
anxiety, and so many of us rightnow are living with chronic
anxiety and almost beingparalyzed.
So when we use that worddebilitating anxiety, that's not
a stretch For a lot of people.
You know they feel paralyzed bytheir anxiety, and so for many
(22:53):
of them it becomes a part oftheir identity, of who they are.
I mean, you even hear thislanguage.
I have a panic disorder, I amanxious.
There is a subtle, subtle, butmassive leap between I am
anxious and I feel anxious, andI think that's in large part
(23:14):
what I talk about in one of thechapters.
And I think that's in largepart what I talk about in one of
the chapters, which is, I think, the reason people are feeling
shame or even, for me,embarrassment.
That was a big one because Iwas like how do I explain this
to people?
A retching episode, so weird,like it's so weird.
I mean, even the doctors that Ivisited, many of them were
(23:35):
perplexed Like well, this isdifferent, and I think a part of
where the shame come from isthis, and this is the giant
realization I came through onthe other end of walking through
my internal universe to try toget to the root causes of my
anxiety.
But I came to this conclusion Ihave misunderstood anxiety and
(23:58):
that's the giant shift for me inthe book, and I think that's in
large part why a lot of peoplefeel shame is because I think we
feel shame, because ourunderstanding of anxiety leads
us to feel shame, and I thinkwhat I mean by that is.
I know for me I can only speakfrom my own experience, but I
(24:18):
was told many times that anxietywas an indication that
something was wrong with me.
I mean even the very phrasepanic disorder.
It's like, oh, something's outof order here and there's so
much shame.
There's pill shaming andthere's so much shame.
There's pill shaming, so manypeople on SSRIs right now that
(24:42):
are shamed by lots of peoplewhere you shouldn't be on those.
You should be on thosetemporarily and not at all.
And I would just like to say toyour listeners SSRIs for me was
a giant help to get me to whereI am, and I still take them
today.
I took one this morning when Igot out of bed.
I am a fan of it because itworks for me, it helps me, it
(25:02):
turns down the volume a littlebit, and what I would say is I
think people have been confusedabout medication and SSRIs and
one of the ways they've beenconfused about it is because I,
like many of them, like meprobably I just thought that
SSRIs were, you know, basicallya Band-Aid for a larger problem.
But what I realized is they'renot a band-aid for a larger
(25:24):
problem.
They give you the energy andthe wherewithal to actually
remove the band-aid that's beenon there for years.
But there's so much shamingaround pills, taking medication,
anxiety, mental health as awhole.
We're making great progress,but our world still very much so
(25:45):
, centers a lot of shame aroundit, and my own religious
upbringing wasn't any different.
In fact it might have beenworse For them.
Anxiety was an indication thatI had a weak faith, and I would
just say I write this in thebook, but I don't think it was
an indication that I had a weakfaith, and I would just say I
write this in the book, but Idon't think it was an indication
of weak faith.
In hindsight now I think it wasan indication of toxic faith.
(26:06):
I don't think, like I say,faith is not like the cure to
anxiety, but it might very wellbe a cause for anxiety and it
was for me and so I would sayfor many of us.
A good place to start, if youfeel shame for anxiety is step
into this conversation with meof shifting how we understand it
.
And a part of that's going tobe countercultural, because it's
(26:29):
not just the church world, it'snot just the faith world.
We are conditioned in ourcultures, from doctors below, to
see anxiety in a particular way, and I love that.
There is a movement happeningright now where people are
rethinking anxiety and they'rerealizing, oh, this isn't, you
know, some assassin trying tokill me.
(26:51):
Because if you see it that way,I want you to know you will
experience it that way andthat's the game changer.
How you understand anxiety willdetermine how you experience
that anxiety.
And I had to, jane.
I had to die to a particularrelationship with anxiety and
then resurrect like a brand newrelationship to anxiety, and
(27:13):
that's where I'm at now.
I don't understand anxiety theway I used to.
I don't see it as somethingthat's trying to kill me.
I see it actually as somethingthat's trying to save me, trying
to heal me, trying to guide meto what actually needs my
attention.
So the shame can be dropkickedright out of your headspace when
(27:35):
you begin to shift just alittle bit of anxiety is not
some abnormality.
Everybody has anxiety, everybody.
The question is not do you haveit?
The question is, at what levelis it at in your life?
Everybody has it.
This is what it means to behuman.
If you are a human, you haveanxiety at some level, and so
(28:04):
why would we be ashamed of that?
This is a gift that we've beengiven and it's kept the human
species alive to date, and weshould probably be like whoever
invented that anxiety, as crazyas it is and as wild as out of
control it can get sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Man, thank you for allowing me and you to be here
today and keeping the evolutionof the human species alive
perfect, absolutely, and, as youwere saying that was that was
going off in my mind is whereit's human to be anxious, and I
(28:43):
think there's kind of life ispresented, isn't it where we
should be happy all the time andif we're not feeling like and
then we failed in some way, butwhere life is feeling all the
emotions and feelings, it's justwhen it gets to chronic.
You do need like help, like themedication you take or speaking
to a therapist, etc.
But we are kind of conditionedto think that we've failed if
(29:03):
we're anxious.
But everyone gets anxious.
I, I used to work, uh, teach,yoga to a person who worked with
famous actors and they wouldget, they would be like thrown
up sometimes before they came onstage.
They were so anxious, so, andso it's a part of it's a part of
being human.
I totally agree, which leads meon I.
(29:24):
I just want to quote anotherthing I read from your book.
It says I try to use anxiety asan alarm clock for awareness,
and I just love that I was justlike yes, I'm going to put that
on my sticky note and on my deskand remember that.
So thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
It's a really helpful , helpful phrase yeah, can I,
can I say something about that?
Yeah, that's probably one of myfavorite chapters right now in
the book.
If I get as an author, I guessI can have a yes, that sounds so
narcissistic, but yeah, I, Ithat, that's so it's.
It was a game changer for me torealize that.
(30:01):
You've probably heard thisphrase, your listeners have
probably heard this phrase.
But awareness of a patternbreaks the pattern, and so I
talk about in the book the artof future, tripping this idea
that much of my anxiety wasanticipatory anxiety.
Much of my anxiety wasanticipatory anxiety.
So it was me playing outhypotheticals that was causing a
(30:24):
lot of the rise within me, theelevated heart rate, even
eventually to this form of theretching episodes.
But I had a realization.
You can even call it awareness.
I mean, eckhart Tolle talksabout the rising of
consciousness, whatever languageis helpful and you want to use.
But a part of it for me was arealization that there was the
(30:48):
anxiety attack.
But then there was the mebehind the anxiety attack,
observing the anxiety attack,and this was a giant, giant
shift for me in even how Iexperienced anxiety and it was
detrimental in turning the knobdown because what I began to
(31:11):
realize is okay.
The observer of the anxiety isnot anxious.
The observer of the panicattack is not panic.
And then it kind of was a littlebit of a mind game for me at
first because I was like wait,hold on.
Well, who is the observer?
(31:33):
And here's the problem with theobserver.
The observer is really hard topin down because the observer is
formless.
The observer doesn't havestructure.
The observer is not walkingaround in flesh and blood.
The observer is like, it feelslike it's layers, layers, layers
(31:53):
deep within me.
You can't see the observer, buteveryone knows that they have
an observer and or they are theobserver, like maybe that's who
we actually are.
I hope this makes sense better.
I think I do a much better jobwriting it out in the book, but
I mentioned that to you to justsay this anxiety is not who you
(32:16):
are, it's what you'reexperiencing and there is a
significant difference betweenthe two.
And so I would say now, when Ihave moments where, even when I
have retching episodes, I stillhave them, they just don't
control me like they used to,and a part of that is because
when I'm in the middle of it Ihave these subtle moments going
(32:38):
oh wait a minute.
There's my body and me havingthis thing.
But then this is really weird.
If I just pause in the moment,I can subtly begin to realize.
And then there's this me behindthe me that is perfectly calm
(33:01):
watching all this happen, andthat is a beautiful thing to
become aware of in the midst ofa panic attack.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, it does, it does and it's so helpful and you
do explain it really well inthat chapter as well as you did
now.
And yeah, it's kind of we getattached to kind of labeling
like this is how, how I am.
But if we can be the observerobserving, then it kind of gives
us I don't know that space tokind of like get out, get out of
(33:39):
just deciding that's how we are, if that makes sense.
I've said a bit clunky in myresponse no, I think that's
beautifully well, well said,yeah so I look, if our listeners
are lost in anxieties and whatis, could you give them a kind
of tip that they could do?
I guess you've just given themone, but maybe something else.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, here's what I would say For your listeners
lost in anxiety.
Step one feel it, just feel it.
That is the easiest step to doand many of your listeners, if
they have anxiety, they're likewell, I already do that.
Yeah, I know, don't resist that.
Feel it, feel all of it, sitwith it, find a space.
(34:24):
If you feel anxious, find aspace.
I always like to put my hand onthe parts of my body where I
feel the anxiety the most.
So for me, I have a spot it'skind of lower throat, right at
the beginning of the chest,which makes sense, right, I'm
having retching episodes.
So sometimes I'll do this andthen I'll put my hand over my
(34:50):
throat as well and I will feelit, just feel it like.
Feel it in your body and I letit do what it needs to do, what
it wants to do.
That old saying what you resistpersist.
The reason that's an old sayingis because it's true.
(35:12):
That's why all the warmetaphors for anxiety oh God,
like that's not helpful.
At least it wasn't for me.
Yeah, I'm not going to battlewith my anxiety.
You go to battle with youranxiety, and anxiety will win
every time exactly every time.
I'm not going to battle with it.
Because why are you going tobattle with it?
Because it's not trying to hurtme.
(35:35):
Anxiety is trying to protect me.
Anxiety is trying to protect me, and so I approach it as
someone that's not trying toharm me.
I approach it as oh what ifthis isn't an enemy trying to
kill me?
What if this is the way my bodyspeaks?
(35:55):
What if this was the languageof the soul?
What if this is all that iswithin me?
You call it whatever you wantto.
I call it the internal universein my book, that being the
psyche, the mind, the heart, gut, whatever unconscious,
subconscious.
What if this is one of the waysthat it communicates to us?
(36:18):
And so I would say to yourlisteners just feel it, find it
in your body, put your hand onthat spot, let yourself be
anxious.
One of my favorite quotes in thebook is from Alan Watts.
Alan Watts says one is a greatdeal less anxious if one feels
(36:45):
perfectly free to be anxious.
One is a great deal lessanxious if one feels perfectly
free to be anxious.
And so I would say start there.
And then I would say feel it,then don't try to eliminate it.
Integrate it, and that's a bigshift that I write about in the
book.
I came to a place where Istopped trying to eliminate my
(37:09):
anxiety and I startedintegrating it, and what I mean
by that is anxiety has a roleand function, and what you need
to know is anxiety can be a partof you without being all of you
, and what you need to know isanxiety can be a part of you
without being all of you.
Anxiety can be present withinyou and not actually overcome
(37:30):
you, and so let it have a seatat the table it just doesn't
have to control the entiremeeting and so feel it, welcome
it, and you may have to talk toit.
I do that.
What I realized as I got deeperinto my anxiety and the roots
(37:51):
underneath it is that in manyways, it was actually my own
inner child screaming out for me.
There's an old Cherokee proverbthat I write in the book that
sometimes the body whispers, andif you don't listen to the
whisper, it will eventuallyscream.
And, and I think that's a shiftthat a large part of our
(38:13):
culture is going through rightnow.
We're all, many of us, many ofus not all of us, but many of us
have been conditioned to livefrom our heads and I think maybe
the reason the nervous systemis throwing up signals and
trying to get our attention isbecause I think it's a larger
cultural shift in humanity thatwe are, as a society, moving
(38:39):
gradually from our heads to ourbodies and we're learning that a
lot of what we were taughtabout our bodies just isn't true
.
It just isn't true.
I know for me.
My religious people told me God,I could not trust myself.
You are a depraved, brokenhuman.
(39:07):
And that's 101.
If your listeners don't knowanything about, like American
evangelicalism, 101 in Americanevangelicalism is you have to
stand up and acknowledge you area sinner, which just means, oh
man, I was born broken.
What kind of a message is that?
How is that good news?
It's not I was born broken andtheir good news is but I have
(39:29):
the solution.
No, and that's not even what.
For your listeners that careabout these things, that's not
even what Jesus taught while hewas here.
If Jesus taught us anything,it's he came to reveal what has
been true about humanity thewhole time, which is we've
always been one with the divine.
(39:50):
It's always been good to be you.
It's always been good to be me.
It's always been good to behuman.
It's always been good to behere, present, right now, in all
the quirkiness of you, and soyou're not inherently broken and
(40:11):
separated from the divine.
We're not born that way.
We aren't that way.
We are born whole and unitedwith the divine, made of the
divine, and I think that's ashift that's happening in our
(40:34):
culture right now is that we'reall coming to this moment of
epiphany, awareness arising ofconsciousness, going wow, look
how sacred we are, look howsacred this is.
And it's not just religion, ourculture, I mean.
You hear it all the time, youknow a tragedy happens, you're
(40:56):
like, well, he's just a human.
What a low view of humanity.
We need to counter that andelevate that.
People aren't doing tragediesand atrocities because they're
human.
They're doing it because theyforget that they're human.
We have lost sight of thesacredness of what it means to
(41:22):
be a human, and we'veexperienced that this week in
America.
For the listeners over therethat don't know, you know
there's a lot happening in ournation right now and I can tell
you that the collective body,and I can tell you that the
collective body, the collectivenervous system, is screaming at
(41:45):
us right now and I think it's aninvitation, an invitation to
listen, to go down in it, tofeel it and to see what might be
down there in the collectiveunconscious of our nation, of
our world.
And let's see what might bewanting to surface.
(42:09):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Absolutely, and it's kind of I was going to ask you
about this and this has beenreally helpful to listen to,
because I feel my anxiety thesedays comes from what's happening
in the world, like I know forthings that have happened this
week in America, but in the UKas well, and all different
countries.
There's different problems butlots of awful things happening.
(42:33):
And it's sometimes it I'mthinking of, you know, kind of
trying to help people and be thebest version of myself, and
then if I read something and itit's and I just see people in
power kind of doing all theseawful, awful things.
It's sometimes hard, isn't it,to kind of step away from that
(42:55):
kind of anxiety and which leadson from what you were saying, to
do like the collectiveconsciousness and it's screaming
out for our help.
How can we navigate throughthat?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
yeah, well, I think the easiest answer to that, or
the quickest answer they get,would be to do our own personal
work.
Yeah, we.
This is this my hope is for thebook is I think the collective
is a mirror of the individual,so the collective is a bunch of
(43:30):
individuals, and so if we canget more individuals doing their
own personal internal work,then eventually it will show
itself in the collective, andthat's my hope for even why I
write this.
Discovering your internaluniverse that's the whole point.
That's why I believe anxietywas there to begin with in me is
to show me some things that,first of all, I didn't even know
(43:52):
were inside of me and then,second things that just needed
my attention wounds, relationalwounds, unprocessed grief,
fear-based religion that neededto be healed, so much within me
that I didn't know resided, thatsat right there on the surface
(44:13):
of my unconscious and it neededattention.
And I believe that's true forus as a collective right now.
You know, in many ways, in manyways, I'm holding all the
emotions I mean this week foryour listeners that don't know.
But you know, a far rightpolitical commentator was gunned
(44:37):
down at a university.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
It's awful.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
We also have had multiple mass shootings, school
shootings recently oh, I didn'tknow about that All at the same
time, one in Colorado, one inMinnesota.
We had, not that long ago, apolitician and her husband
gunned down in their own home.
I mean, violence right now inAmerica is just surfacing to
(45:01):
levels that you know I'munfamiliar with in my 44 years
of being on this part of theworld, and you know there's a
lot of people living in fear,and rightfully so.
Again, it's not trying to harmus, it's here to tell us
something, it's here to protectus.
It's here to tell us something,it's here to protect us.
(45:23):
And so I would just say let'slean into this moment, let's do
our own personal work and then Iwould say, let's begin to see
collectively what might try tobe surfacing.
I know for America, I can onlyspeak for us, but it's a scary
(45:44):
time, not just for Americans butfor a lot of us.
I mean, there is a dozen or soworld leaders right now that I
don't even know how they gottheir positions, and it's
terrifying because these arepeople that don't have.
They have very little emotionalmaturity, if any, and they're
(46:07):
navigating these countries andthey have access to so much
power, and and what I will tellyou is, is that somehow I'm
trusting and believing that.
There's an old Eckhart Tollequote that I love.
He said life will give youwhatever you need for the
(46:28):
evolution of your consciousness.
He goes on to say how do youknow?
This is what you need, becausethis is what you are
experiencing.
And so, like me and our littlecollective out here where I live
in America, we're working hardfor justice.
We're working hard to exposethe things that need to be
exposed, and that's what I loveabout.
(46:49):
I try to write about both thatin the book, because I want your
listeners to know you can doyour own internal inner work,
your own shadow work, andsimultaneously, at the same time
, call out the unconscious actsof other people who haven't done
their own shadow work, and Ithink we have to do both.
I think we have to do both, andso in America, right now, I
(47:10):
will tell you our president andthis is where I am he is the
unedited version of who Americareally is.
We've been denying it, we'vebeen acting like we're God's
greatest gift to the planet, andthe reality is is that isn't
true, and I know that becauseour history tells me that, and
(47:31):
so what I believe is happeningright now is to see.
We're getting a flesh and bloodvisual of the collective
unconscious of our nation, andwhat's rising to the surface is
(47:52):
bigotry, racism.
What's rising to the surface ismisogyny, homophobic actions.
All of this is rising to thesurface and as hard as it is to
see, I think if we're capableand able, we must not only see
it, but we must acknowledge it.
(48:15):
There's a great Franciscanpriest out in New Mexico that I
admire.
His name is Richard Rohr.
Richard Rohr said you cannotheal what you do not acknowledge
.
And I think, ever so gradually,we're seeing what we need to
see so we can acknowledge whatwe need to acknowledge, so we
(48:38):
can begin to heal what we needto heal oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
That's very moving, actually, very wise words.
It kind of makes you feel it'sdifferent problems but also very
similar, because the way the ukhas been run at the moment it's
it's just they just take,they're just squeezing everyone.
So, financially, everyone'sreally really feeling it.
(49:04):
There's a lot of like unrestand I really can't relate to our
prime minister.
That's just my personal view.
Listeners, so is it?
You know, the thing is, we'reall.
I think it's really importantthat people can have different
opinions and just because wedon't all agree like some
listeners might listen and notagree with me and might not
agree with yourself, or theymight agree, and I think it's
really important that peoplehave discussions because I think
(49:27):
that's what keeps us human andit's very, very important that
happens.
So, dear listeners, maybe youlove the prime minister.
That's great.
This doesn't make you a badperson.
In the same way, doesn't makeme a bad person if I don't
relate to him.
So, cody, what do you mind?
I'm a listener.
I want to buy your book.
Do you want to share a bit fromyour book?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Would love to.
There's like a couple of places.
If I had time I'd be like ohman, let's read that section,
let's read that section.
But I'm going to read it'stowards the end of the book two
paragraphs.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Thank you this is page 216.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Think about the moments in your life you thought
were going to end you.
Yet you are still here.
Look at you.
Despite all the anxiety youhave experienced, you keep
getting out of bed in themorning and walking into your
day.
With each step, you are showinganxiety its proper place within
(50:32):
you.
Life is hard enough when thingsare going well, tag on
debilitating moments of chronicanxiety and it can feel nearly
impossible to survive.
Yet you have.
You are resilient, courageousand stronger than perhaps you
(50:54):
realize.
Give yourself credit.
It's not easy being human.
It's not easy being human.
It's not easy being you.
It's not easy being here.
Yet you have survived,prevailed, conquered and on your
best days you have even soared.
(51:15):
You are trusting, one step at atime.
I'm proud of you.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Oh, thank you, Cody.
I felt quite emotionallistening to that.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Yeah, my hope.
I read that for all of yourlisteners who have lived with
anxiety for years.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah, I can relate to that.
When I was listening to it itmade me feel accepted.
So thank you, I reallyappreciate that If I'm, if I am
a listener and I feel like Iwant to get a copy of your book.
It's on all the major platforms, isn't it?
Not like Amazon's generallyworldwide?
(52:00):
But I think for those that I'vegot american listeners, well,
barnes and noble and places likethat and I guess, if, if, if
you go to your bookstore andthey haven't got it, they can
order it in as well.
But yes definitely on amazonworldwide, and it's out on the
9th of October called Discoveryour Internal Universe by Cody
(52:21):
Dees.
Just one final question Isthere anything else that you
would like to share with ourlisteners today?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
I would point to.
In the book at the very end Igive a list of resources that
have inspired a lot of my ownthinking, and so I would
encourage people, when they pickup the book, to go there and
read some of those resources.
One that I would justacknowledge right now for those
that are listening.
They're like oh, I want to hearmore about this.
I'm not a therapist.
I need to be clear about that.
(52:50):
I try to say it everywhere I go.
It's my first line in the book.
Actually, I say I'm not atherapist, and that's important
because there's a lot of, likeyou know, tiktok influencers
that are posing as therapistsand that's not helpful and a lot
of times it just creates moreanxiety.
So I want you to know that I'mnot a therapist.
I come and I write as a fellowparticipant in the human
experience, someone that's livedwith anxiety for a while Now.
(53:12):
That said, I would encourageyou to read a real doctor's
explanation and understanding alot of what I talked about today
, and if you want to do that, drRussell Kennedy's book Anxiety
Rx is what I highly recommend.
That book is essentially themechanics behind what I'm
(53:35):
working out in my book, and sosave yourself a doctor's visit
and grab that book, because itrevolutionized a lot for me.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Oh, thank you, I'll put.
I'll put.
I'll include that in the shownotes as well as a link to your,
to your book, your churchonline as well, if you're in a
different part of the world ordo you have to be in your
hometown to join.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
No, no, no, it's, it's all out there.
Yeah, we didn't talk about that, which is fine.
I'm totally happy with that.
But for your listeners somecall me a pastor, I call myself
a teacher of an ever-evolvingspiritual collective where we
have this little community rightoutside of Atlanta, georgia,
which is where I live and ourlittle community is we always
say we're just waking up tobeauty, truth and goodness
(54:19):
wherever it's found, and we havethe conversations that we need
to have.
But people can go and checkthat out.
Honestly, just the website,codydesecom and all the info's
there.
Yeah, and I'm doing a littlebook tour.
It's coming up.
So I don't think I'm overseasyet, but maybe soon.
So, but I'm doing like anAmerican little book tour, so
(54:39):
that's coming up and all thosedetails are on the site as well.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Oh, perfect, because some of my listeners are in the
US as well, so that would bebrilliant.
Oh, cody, it's been so great totalk to you and I feel like
I've learned a lot.
It's always my pleasure to havewonderful guests like yourself,
but this felt really close toheart with the anxiety thing.
So I just want to thank you fortaking the time and your
morning because I know it'smorning over there to talk to us
(55:02):
today, and I just want to say abig thank you from myself and
my listeners awesome.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Well, thank you so much, and thank you for the work
you do in the world.
It's making a difference andI'm grateful to be a part of it
thank you very much, cody.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Thank you, so do stay tuned, listeners.
As always, there's a guidedmeditation inspired by today's
show, but the one and only CodyDees, thank you.
Top tips for the meditation iseither sit nice and cross-legged
on the floor with a nicestraight back Always nice to sit
on a block or a cushion,although that's not available
for you, you sit in a chair withthe back nice and straight.
(55:37):
The important thing is you'renot slouching, and if you're
doing something that requiresyour concentration, all you need
to do is just pause this andyou can reconvene the meditation
at a time that is good for youIf you're doing the meditation.
Let's begin In this guidedmeditation today.
Imagine you're sitting in themost wonderful room, a room that
(56:01):
you either from yourimagination or room that you
have been in before.
But you imagine that you are inthis room and it's a room that
you find great comfort in.
And as you sit in this room,you take in the colors of the
walls, the textures of thefabric, how the light cascades
(56:22):
into the room, and it's a placethat you feel a deep sense of
comfort.
In many ways, the beauty ofthis room is a symbol of the
self-love, the self-love that weso often forget, or the
self-love that we haveexperienced before but forgotten
(56:45):
Either way.
This room symbolises theself-love that you so lovingly
deserve and to help heal theworld at the same time.
So we heal ourselves and thenwe help send that healing to the
world, knowing that you'reperfect and beautiful just as
(57:07):
you are.
The refuge of this room offersgreat comfort and healing, and
the more you just allow yourselfand your imagination to sit in
the room, the more the lovebuilds so from your energetic
heart center, which is known asthe heart chakra in yoga, but in
(57:27):
all different forms of beliefs,faiths and healing.
Just imagine it is a kind ofbeautiful energy of love, this
self-love.
And as you sit softly in thisroom, you allow this self-love
to begin to encircle your beingin a gentle way.
(57:50):
You feel as if it surrounds youand holds you, as if you're
held by the most wonderfulfabric that offers great comfort
and joy to your being.
And this fabric feels like itholds you so beautifully and you
feel as if you are calm andrelaxed in it.
(58:11):
And as this self-love begins togrow, it reminds you of things
about yourself that you like,things that you may or may not
remember, for we all have thisbeautiful love within us.
Just allow those things to beremembered.
Even remember at a pace that isright for you, and don't worry
(58:37):
if you don't remember.
Just allow the feeling of loveto grow.
So all you're going to do forthe, for the next few minutes,
is just take some calm, deepbreaths in this room and just
imagine that love growing andgrowing.
Thank you, the, the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the, the,
(59:33):
the, the, the, the, the, the,the, the, the, the, the, the,
the, the, the, the, the, the,the.
(59:57):
So, from this beautiful place,can you imagine that the love
that you receive from yourselfyou send out into the world, and
then that love comes back toyou.
So you feel as if the love thatyou have generated by being
(01:00:17):
still you receive, but you sendit out into the world, and then
the world remembers about lovetoo and sends it back to you.
And you can just continue thiswith slow, calm, deep breathing,
and then slowly and calmly comeback into the room, come back
into the moment, rememberingthat you are the essence of love
(01:00:40):
.
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