March 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Angela Williams Gorrell is a speaker, consultant, and an ordained minister in the Mennonite Church USA with over fourteen years of ministry experience. She has taught at schools including Yale University, Baylor University, and Fuller Seminary. Her research has been highlighted by the New York Times, NPR, and the Washington Post among others. Her publications include Always On: Practicing Faith in a New Media Landscape and The Gravity of Joy: A Story of Being Lost and Found.
Angela William Gorell shares her framework for navigating life's difficult decisions through practical and spiritual guidance. Drawing from her own experiences of deciding whether to pursue tenure and whether to stay in her marriage, she offers wisdom on finding clarity when facing life's crossroads.From the Author My goal is not that you reach the same decisions as me or the other people featured in this book, but that you learn how to take your own journey into and through difficult decisions.
• Braving Difficult Decisions combines practical guidance with spiritual wisdom
• The decision-making journey integrates historical wisdom, real-life stories, and proven practices
• Surrender is not giving up but a process of purifying our intentions and accepting reality
• Physical practices like open-palm meditation can help embody the practice of surrender
• We often choose between familiar pain and unfamiliar pain when making difficult decisions
• Working through grief requires naming our experience, questioning, and imagining transformation
• All difficult decisions are made with humility - we never have complete information
• Your story is important and can always be edited, regardless of past choices
You can find Angela Gorell at www.angelagorrell.com or on social media @angelagorell.
Her book "Braving Difficult Decisions" is available in hardback, Kindle, and Audible formats worldwide.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Welcome, angela hi, thank you so much for having me,
jane.
I'm really eager to jump intoconversation with you.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I'm so eager to have you on the show as well.
I think our audience is goingto learn a lot from you today.
And um, and what a beautifulbook you've got to share with
the world as well.
I think our audience is goingto learn a lot from you today.
And what a beautiful bookyou've got to share with the
world as well.
So I think it's alwaysimportant to sincerely share
great work like that.
So today I thought we'd talkabout not exclusively, but why
in life, when we've haddifficult decisions, how we can
(04:02):
sometimes worry if we've madethe right choice, and I thought
what about?
What better person to speak tous today than yourself, angela?
Firstly, would you mind sharinga little bit of backstory of
your life's experience so far,your path to our listeners?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Like all people, my path hasbeen filled with complex choices
, you know, sometimes reallyones that don't impact my life
as much as others, but ones thatchanged the whole trajectory of
my life, where I lived and howI spent my time every day.
(04:41):
And so I really wrote my book,braving Difficult Decisions, out
of my own desire to have ajourney that would walk me,
guide me, through makingdifficult decisions.
I began to think about thisbook in the eight months that I
spent trying to decide if Ishould leave my job or not.
(05:02):
I was a professor at auniversity in the United States
and I'm still in the US, butjust for listeners, depending on
what country you're listeningfrom.
I was up for tenure, which isthe biggest promotion that you
can get as a professor otherthan becoming a full professor,
(05:24):
and it's sort of the unicorntype job in the academy these
days of getting a tenure trackjob and then getting tenure.
It's the thing that we allreally want, that we're taught
to want and to desire in ourcareers, and I wanted it.
I thought at the time, but then, as it was coming for me in
(05:45):
this particular context,different things were arising
for me that were making mequestion whether this was the
place that I should work,especially for the next decades
of my life, whether I should goup for tenure, and it was
surprising because I would havenever thought when I took this
job that that would even be aquestion for me.
(06:05):
But the more that things werehappening around me and within
me, the more I began to realizeI needed to discern whether this
was for me, and I spent eightmonths trying to figure this out
and I really wanted a book thatwould help.
And then I should also say thatin 2020, I went on a journey
(06:27):
for a few months of trying tofigure out if I should stay
married or not, and anyone who'shad this question knows that
that question does not comewithout a lot of wrestling.
No one gets married to leavetheir marriage.
So whether you stay or whetheryou go anytime, you've been
(06:48):
through that process of reallytrying to discern what you
should do.
It's a very heart-rendingprocess.
It's emotional.
There's a lot of questionsabout, I mean, because this
person that you're in arelationship with, you spend all
your time with them.
That's free.
You live with them, your lifeis intertwined with theirs and
(07:11):
so to undo it really feels likean undoing of most of your life.
Really, back to back, within atwo year period, I kept I would
turn to books on guidance and ondiscernment, and I kept wanting
a book that was both practicaland spiritual, a book that would
(07:33):
feel like there was someoneacross from me like, try this
and now think about this, andthen what about these questions?
And I, and so I wrote the kindof book that I longed for during
that time.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And I, and so I wrote the kind of book that I longed
for during that time and that'svery helpful for the world to be
able to have a book, a booklike that, and I really admire
your honesty and what two bigthings to have to kind of
navigate through the job, whichsounds like the dream job, but
in your heart it sounds like youknew that it wasn't the
direction you want to go in andalso like a marriage, like you
said.
We've all been there where wekind of like question and and
(08:08):
like kind of wonder, um I was.
When I was looking at your bookI noticed that you had like
three major strands to it.
Please correct me if I'm not umno, you're right yeah it's like
the um.
First of all, it was a kind ofdiscernment process of how to
make decisions, which sometimesit's so hard to make decisions
(08:31):
for people in general, I thinkand then you took inspiration
from historical figures that hadmade decisions where it was not
necessarily the best thing forthem, but it was the best thing
kind of to do with great stepsof bravery.
(08:53):
And then you also interviewedpeople that um had gone through
different things.
What an amazing three things toput together, and maybe you
could explain a bit more aboutthat to our readers, how that
can help.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, that's perfect, jane.
Thank you so much for bringingthat up.
It was important to me first tolearn from other people who had
written about discernment andwho had written about decision
making and, like I said, thereare books that I read that were
really practical and that werelike these are the five
questions you should ask, orthese are some spiritual
practices that could help you.
(09:29):
But for me, I really wanted ajourney that integrated a number
of things, that didn't feel tooshallow for what I was going
through but also didn't feel socomplex and esoteric or elusive
that I was like I don't reallyknow if I'm doing the right
thing, you know.
And so I really tried to learnfrom other people who've written
(09:53):
about it and then intertwinethe best of what they had
offered into a journey.
Secondly, as you said, I lookedat historical figures, people
living and dead, who I felt likehad not only made really
difficult decisions but who hadlived really boldly, and I
wanted to know what gave themthe ability to do this.
(10:36):
What were, as people in ourlives, trying to make complex
choices?
And one of those big thingsthat I noticed was, at some
point, for all of them, theycouldn't not do what they did.
It was like it kept them awakeat night.
It was like there was thisburning within them.
And I think all of us at somepoint, when we give ourselves
(10:58):
enough time, when we reallyattend to our own souls, to our
inner knowing, as Joy Harjocalls it she's a poet when we
attend to our inner knowing,when we spend time for me as a
person who believes in God, inGod's presence, and when we give
(11:20):
it some time, I think there's aday when we realize I can't not
do this thing, whether it'slike I stay or I go, I say yes
or I say no.
There's a day when we really Ithink we feel in our soul what
we're meant to do.
And I think if we attend to oursouls enough and we really
(11:41):
participate in a meaningfuljourney, then we will have
changed enough within to be ableto do whatever it is that we
need to do.
And I think that's as importantas figuring out what to do is
really preparing our own soul tobe able to have the strength to
do what we need to do.
(12:02):
And then the last part was, yes,like interviewing a number of
people who had made difficultdecisions and trying again to
learn from them as well.
And then I tell seven of thosestories throughout the book, and
that was really meaningful forme.
It helped me to realize whatmakes difficult decisions
(12:22):
difficult for people, what arethe big questions that they have
, what are their biggest hurdles, and so then and then, you know
what did these people do thatreally gave them the courage to
keep moving forward in theirlives, and so I'm hoping that
anyone who reads this book justfeels encouraged at the end of
the day, mostly like, okay, I'mencouraged, I'm braver than I
think.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Perfect, exactly Because sometimes we doubt our
own bravery.
Yes, we have like this kind offear.
When you were saying aboutknowing the right thing to do
I'll just quickly tell you isthat when I was supposed to help
run this course and I knew mydad wasn't well and had been ill
for a long time, but I just hada feeling he was going to die.
(13:06):
So I kind of left the course,even though I let people down to
kind of go and and spend timewith him, and he did.
He died two weeks later.
So I kind of listened to whatwas the right, the right thing
to do and and there was like nodoubt, that's what I had to do,
regardless and everyone wasunderstanding.
But it was so that that came tomy mind when you, when you
shared that that story is thatsometimes we know what kind of
(13:27):
what we need to do, even if it'sthe circumstances that make it
feel difficult.
So as I was reading throughyour book, I found that you know
, we can have like this you hadthe bit about the stirring, but
then the surrender and we canknow what we need to do.
(13:48):
But how does someone accessthat surrender to kind of feel
that trust in God or whatever itis they believe in spiritually,
and how can this book help themwith that?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you spent that
last couple of weeks.
Midst of difficult decisions isdisappoint other people for the
sake of something you know.
I think that the two hardestaspects, probably, of difficult
decision are like disappointingother people and then also
hurting other people.
(14:41):
You know, when we realize that,yeah, yeah, and I can share
more about that there was aparagraph that you wanted me to
to read from my book, so wecould, we could come back to
that.
Yeah, about the paragraph thatI chose, and I think that that's
really connected to what you'resaying.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
It's the surrender part, where you know like
sometimes we call no surrender,or trust in god or, for those
who say it more esoterically,like trust in the divines, and
how your book can help peoplewith that, because I think
surrender is sometimes thebiggest obstacle, for I know
that can sometimes be in my lifedefinitely uh, yeah, and I
(15:20):
think surrender for me, um, Ireally love the idea that in the
word, surrender is render, andso part of surrender is offering
up something for judgment, andto render something is to purify
it, and so surrender isn'tdoing nothing, I think,
(15:41):
sometimes when we think about,and it's not giving up either.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
But so I think if we associate surrender with doing
nothing or giving up, thatsounds like a terrible should do
next what the way forward is.
And if we think about surrenderas a process of purifying our
(16:09):
intentions, of clearing the wayto make a way forward, then I
hope that it feels better to you, even inspiring and helpful.
And I think surrender is a formof acceptance and it doesn't
mean acceptance is differentthan consent.
Acceptance is different thanaffirmation or liking something
(16:32):
Acceptance is.
I realize that this is what itis, this is how my life is at
this moment, and it's thiswillingness to accept that this
is the state of things and alsothat I don't have to be attached
to this state of things.
And so surrender is, mostimportantly, I think, a practice
(16:56):
.
And just like we practice thepiano and we're not just good at
it, most of us don't sit downat a piano and then just like
play like Bach.
You know what I mean.
It takes a lot of action andengagement over time and then
one day we realized that thisthing that was so strange to us
(17:17):
and unfamiliar has become afamiliar action that even maybe
feels like home to us.
So surrender I find it reallypowerful to do bodily forms of
surrender where we really and Iknow that as a yoga practitioner
, you're very, you know, in tunewith your body and what your
body's wisdom, and so I love theidea of taking some sort of
(17:42):
bodily surrender when we'refirst especially trying to
engage in this.
But really, even over time, andso that could look like laying
down in corpse pose on a yogamat where you're laying on your
back, arms and legs outstretched.
It might look like sitting likea child, and I like this where
you know you're hot, you're onyour knees and like you're
sitting up and your hands areout.
(18:04):
If you're in your wheelchair,you're sitting, your hands are
out, maybe your palms are openand you're placing whatever it
is your decision, your question,your situation into your hands,
and then maybe you turn themover and you release it and take
some deep breaths as you dothat, and I think that over time
(18:25):
, as you engage I mean for me myfriend I talk about my friend
Liz in the book and when she wasbeing ordained as a priest, she
laid on the chancel and put herhands on top of each other and
then put her forehead on top ofher hands and just in total
surrender to her vocation, tothe community around her.
(18:47):
That would uphold her to thewisdom of her tradition, and I
think that that's a powerfulform of surrender for us,
especially when we're in reallydifficult like when we just feel
totally helpless and powerlessto just accept that.
That's how I am right now.
I am, I can't see in front ofme, I can't see behind me, and
so as we engage in this practiceof surrender, over time I think
(19:10):
it becomes a natural way thatwe engage our lives.
It can be, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Often by physically kind of going into surrender
position and that's kind of Ican see that it's going to make
one kind of open up a bit, a bitmore to it, rather than you
know, sometimes we think, oh, Imust surrender, and end up not
surrendering by saying I mustsurrender.
So that was, that was veryhelpful.
Um, as I was looking throughyour book, what I found also
(19:38):
very helpful was that you havewith each chapter you have kind
of like a question and then aprayer and then you've got some
actionable things at the back ofyour, your book, of how people
can do that.
I wondered if you would mindsharing an instance of that or,
from you, anything that youwould like so, um, yeah, I felt
(19:59):
like that.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Um, I wanted people to have multiple ways of reading
this book and I was hoping thatit would be the kind of book
that you could return to severaltimes over, like as you have
different decisions that you'remaking in your life, different
questions.
You're trying to answer that.
Sometimes maybe you just have aquestion, like you know, I want
(20:22):
to hear what to do, I need to,you know I need to be studied, I
need to whatever, and that youcould use the questions in the
guiding questions and prayers inthe chapters to go, oh, this is
the chapter I need right now,and so I have a list of all the
questions and prayers on one ofthe pages so that you could,
(20:44):
someone, a reader, could justturn to that and then go oh yeah
, that's what I need right now,and so one of them.
For example, there's a chaptercalled Sifting and it's about
where you're trying to figureout, like, maybe you have two
competing beliefs.
When I was trying to, when I wasgoing up for tenure, for tenure
(21:04):
, one of my beliefs was we needmore women in this department
and so I need to be here as anadvocate of women and as one of
these women boys, we can't haveless women.
If I leave, we're going to haveeven less women who are here,
and that was a really strongbelief of mine.
And then the other belief wasI'm not emotionally and mentally
(21:26):
healthy in this department andthose were competing for me and
I really was trying to figureout which one you know.
And so for the sifting chapter,it says how do I?
The question is, how do I knowwhat is true?
And I don't know that truethere means like for all time,
(21:47):
but for this moment, like whatbelief is the guiding light for
me in this moment?
And then the prayer is teach me.
And so, yeah, the hope there isthat people can ask, you know,
can have these questions, that,can you know that hopefully
these questions are articulatinga question for them that they
(22:08):
really do have?
And then the prayer is just asimple steady me, teach me, lead
me, help me.
That can become sort of this,almost like a breath, practice
as you're doing this journey,Like, okay, I can return to this
little prayer to go.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Okay, I'm not alone do you think it's because we try
to as humans, we try to solveeverything out with ourselves,
and then we put this immensepressure and then we kind of
sometimes like the dog chasingits tail, trying to think where
do I go when we kind ofsurrender into our faith, and
that kind of guides us.
But I like the fact that theprayers are like short sentences
(22:49):
because then it's kind of youknow, it's teach me what.
You can't really go anywhereelse with that, rather than kind
of like listen or surrender andbe, and that's what I
particularly liked.
I liked about your, your work.
So so you said about the twodifficult decisions that you had
to make very close together.
(23:11):
So if I'm a listener, listeningtoday and thinking, oh yeah,
actually I've got to make a bigdecision, there are several ways
they can work through.
Your book isn't there?
Maybe you would like to explain, angela, that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So obviously you can just readit from front to back and that's
going to be like a journeywhere you're going to start with
what is the stirring I havewithin?
Can I articulate it?
To myself, to God, to anotherperson I trust?
So you start with being able toarticulate your stirring and
you'll move through the journeyto.
(23:46):
It will take you, throughengaging and surrender, to maybe
finding one or a few otherpeople that you can take this
journey with.
Maybe they also have somedifficult decisions that they're
trying to make and you could dothe journey together.
Or maybe they're just going tobe your friends, your companions
, because they care about youand they want to support you.
And then it'll move you intoworking through difficult
(24:10):
emotions, whatever might becoming up for you fear, anger.
Some really constructive waysof moving through difficult
emotions engaging your body,engaging your mind, all of it
together.
And then beliefs and letting goof whatever you need to let go
of from the past, becausesometimes our past weighs on us
and it makes it hard to keepmoving forward.
(24:31):
Summoning from our stories, ourfamily's history, for strength,
and then thinking through ourvalues, thinking through beliefs
, considering the sorts ofpeople that will maybe make it
difficult for us to make thisdecision, or the kinds of people
we need to support us,filtering our decision through a
(24:52):
number of different you know,when you're having paralysis,
analysis, paralysis I have achapter dedicated to a number of
different ways you could thinkthrough your different
possibilities and really, andthen the idea is that you finish
this journey with a sense ofsated joy, that you have, even
for a couple of minutes, somecontentment in the story that
(25:13):
you're living in.
And it doesn't mean that you'regoing to take this journey and
make even a radical change inyour life.
The radical change might bewithin.
Radical change in your life.
The radical change might bewithin.
It might be that you'retransforming your own
relationship to your life, thatthe way that you look at your
circumstances shifts throughoutthis journey.
(25:34):
But then the second way is whatI was just describing, where you
can look at the questions andthe prayers that are the
heartbeat of each chapter and go.
That's what I need to answerright now.
That is the prayer I need rightnow.
I'm going to go to that chapter.
Or then, finally, you couldstart with the appendix, and in
the appendix there are a numberof exercises that go with each
(25:54):
chapter but you don't have toread the chapter to do the
exercise.
That will wake up your I thinkyou'll feel like it'll wake up
your courage.
It'll wake up, it'll make thedecision feel manageable.
You'll be like, okay, I knowwhat I need to do.
It'll break down the decisioninto parts.
It'll give you like in theseeking chapter.
(26:16):
It gives you a way of meetingwith other people and helping
them help you.
I mean, these are reallyconcrete things to do, practical
tools that will give you a lotof confidence that's really
helpful and and also, people canfit them in their lives.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Can't, because, you know, sometimes people say, oh,
I haven't got time.
But we it's important one thatwe do invest in time in
ourselves.
But I know from experience alittle bit adds up each day.
So you know like people coulddo it as an exercise daily or or
, uh, how many times a week thatthey've got time to kind of fit
in.
So how does um, how do youremember?
(26:55):
Sorry, yeah, I was gonna say Iwas gonna ask you this actually.
So, yes, how can we find faithand trust in a painful process?
You know these really painfulthings like, I don't know, grief
and difficult, all awful thingsthat can happen.
So how can we find the faithand trust in that painful
(27:16):
process, especially whensometimes we may feel like a
victim or things aren't workingout the way we want them to be?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I think that that's where the surrender chapter
becomes helpful again is that wereturn to surrender when we're
feeling those difficult emotionsrising up in us, finding a form
of surrender that helps us totake some deep breaths and to
just realize.
This is difficult, this is hard, this is hard on my soul, like
(27:46):
I am grieving, I am scared, anynumber of things.
I'm saying that that is myreality right now and I'm not
detached from that reality.
I am facing it, I amrecognizing it and also I have
an awareness of it.
But also I'm not alone.
God is guiding me.
The universe is going to showme what to do.
I won't always feel the waythat I do right now.
(28:10):
And then also that's where thesensing chapter is really
helpful.
I have ways of just reallyworking through an emotion, and
so you could take something likeif you're really experiencing
deep grief, that you start withwhere you feel that in your body
.
I love my therapist has taughtme that you know when I was
(28:33):
feeling it deeply in my if Ifelt like an elephant was on my
chest when I was grieving, togrunt several times loudly.
If I'm here, if I'm feeling itlike I have a you know, a pit in
the middle of my stomach that Ihum several times loudly, and
this is a way of you know.
So you're finding a bodily wayof releasing your grief.
(28:54):
This could look like allowingyourself to cry.
It could look like dancing.
It could look like getting atowel and wringing it through
your hand and imagining that.
That's you like wringing outyour emotions.
You know, putting on music andallowing it to draw you into
(29:16):
tears and really being.
I think it's important that wegive ourselves permission to
grieve when it rises up in usand that we release that in some
way so that it doesn't stay inhere.
But then I think it's aboutlike I have this practice of
lament in the sensing chapter.
(29:37):
I think it's important that welearn how to lament A lot of
like.
Some cultures are really goodat this.
Some people come from acommunity where lament has
rituals that help them to workthrough it.
But if you come from a culturewhere it's really buttoned up
and people don't share theiremotions people don't cry around
(29:57):
each other, people don't thenwe don't know a lot of times how
to work through our grief, howto actually allow it to teach us
something, to show us somethingand really, at the end of the
day, grief is usually anotherform of love, right, it's that
(30:18):
we have, in some way, we feeldisconnected from or have lost
something that we love, and sowe need to give ourselves
permission to say I loved that,I lost that, and so lament.
I love this three part of lament.
One is naming.
This is what has happened.
This is what I'm sad about.
Questioning is the second partAsking questions of the universe
(30:40):
, of God, of others, like inwriting, or it might look like a
voice memo that you leave toyourself and then, or that you
just talk, you know, say it outloud, and then the final part is
imagining If this situationwere to shift, if I were to be
transformed through it, if Iwere to learn something, if God
(31:01):
were to break into thissituation, if you know, what
might this look like?
If I were to be comforted, howwould that look?
You know that sort of thing anda process like that helps us, I
think, to realize that we'renot crazy for being sad, that
(31:23):
we're being very human.
It's a very human experiencethat we're having and it's a
good thing yeah, absolutely itis.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Sometimes we can shut ourselves off from our emotions
and and by allowing to feel it,I feel that we become whole
again, because you know, yes,it's like we can, we're meant to
feel, feel them and then we cankind of release them.
Um, is there anything?
Is the one thing that youwished everybody knew?
And also a bit of an open endedquestion, but I just I always
find this fascinating and alsovery helpful is is the one thing
(31:54):
in life that you wish everybodyknew, and if so, what was that?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
there's so many things, so many things.
Um, wow, where where do I start?
How do I just put it into onething?
I think that I put this in thebook, like your story is
important, and if you're sittinghere, listening, still
(32:25):
breathing, it's not the end here, listening, still breathing,
it's not the end.
Your story can always be edited.
You can you still haveparagraphs to write, you know.
But and so I'm glad you're here, we're glad you're here, I'm
(32:51):
glad that you are alive and thatyou're contributing your story
to this planet.
And the story that you'rewriting is not just important if
people you know, if it's famousor if it makes a lot of money
or anything like that.
It's important just becauseyou're existing and breathing as
yourself, and and so it mightsound cliche, but no one's ever
lived that's like you.
You are the only you that hasever been and that will ever be.
(33:16):
You're a very unique person onthis earth just by being you,
and so that's a beautiful thing.
I hope you feel loved.
I hope you feel dignified andworthy, just as you are today.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Listen to that, I feel so calm and it just feels
so reassuring.
So I'm describing that so so,so well.
Angie, would you mind reading aparagraph from your book?
I always think it means morewhen the author reads it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I did read this book foraudible and, uh, it's always fun
yeah, it's always fun to be inthe studio doing that but it's
also nerve-wracking becauseyou're like, did I pronounce
that?
I think so, you know.
Um, but yeah, we, I was sayingthat I, we kind of alluded to
this earlier, um, but so on page150 and 151, I have this
(34:11):
paragraph and it's in the lastchapter, but it says Sometimes
you come to know the thing youneed to do but don't want to do
it because you know it willbreak your heart.
Maybe it will break someoneelse's heart too.
It is one thing to ask God forwhat to do and another to pray
to have the strength to do itwhen you know what you need to
(34:32):
do.
When we are making a decisionthat hurts, we are often
choosing between familiar andunfamiliar pain.
We are choosing between a painwe have ways of managing and a
pain we are unsure how to treat,and most of us favor pain we
already know how to manage.
My friend Michaela I quote herin the next paragraph she says
(34:57):
that most of us prefer chronicpain over acute pain, and I
think that this was something.
Yeah, I learned a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Oh, wow, that's fantastic and I really enjoyed
your book and I'm going to buysome copies for for gifts as
well, for people as well.
If I'm a listener listeningright now, how can they reach
out and and what services, um,and all your consulting and
things like that can you, couldyou explain for them?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I love so much to hear fromreaders and so if you read any
one of my books, please feelfree to message me through my
website, which is just my name,wwwangelagorellcom, and my last
name has it's go with two R'sand two L's, so G-O-R-R-E-L-Lcom
(35:51):
.
You can message me through mywebsite.
I love, like I said, I'd loveto hear from you.
I do one-on-ones with peopleoccasionally, where I meet with
people for spiritual directionor coaching and then but then I
also I mostly spend my timeleading retreats and giving
keynotes and stuff like that,and so you can contact me
(36:14):
through my website for anythingof that nature.
But I also would love to befriends.
So if you want to be friendsthrough Instagram or Facebook or
TikTok, you can find me at allthose places, just at angela
garell will help, you know.
You'll be able to find me onany of those places.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, I'll make sure I put those details in the show
notes as well, so in case anyonemissed that.
But uh, and if I want to buyyour book, I noticed we've got
it on like it's on amazon uk,amazon us.
I'm sure it's amazon worldwideand it's it's available.
I know it's available in the UKin hardback copy and also
(36:52):
Kindle.
And you've just said thatyou're doing the Audible version
as well.
When's that out, the Audible?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, it actually.
It's already finished and it'sbeen in processing at Audible
and so it should be live.
It might be live today.
It'll be live any day now.
Yeah, so you could check.
If you prefer Audible, it'll belive any day now.
Yeah, so you could check if youlove, if you, if you prefer
audible, it'll be live any daynow perfect.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, I'll make sure again.
I'll put some details of that.
So just thank you, go, angela,I'm mindful of the time.
I could talk to you forever.
Is there anything we feel thatwe have covered that you'd like
to share as a leaving note?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I think that the last thing I'd love to share
is just that, if you're worriedabout regretting your decision,
I just invite you to think backto what I just said about being
able to edit the paragraph thatyou're living in.
You know, we can always keepediting, we can always keep
trying to make sure that we feelgood about the story that we're
(37:52):
living, and so part of thejourney of making difficult
decisions, I think, is if wetake a wrong turn or what to us
feels like a wrong turn or amistake, that forgiveness is
always available.
You can forgive yourself fortaking a wrong turn, like you
can forgive yourself for takinga wrong turn, and that that's
(38:14):
why there's other people to relyon as well to help you through
anything like that.
And then also a lot of peopleask me like how do you know when
it's the right thing?
I mean, you might feel thatinner knowing, but you still are
like but we always makedifficult decisions with great
humility.
We always make difficultdecisions with great humility.
All of us.
I mean even the wisdomliterature in the Bible, for
example, the chief aspect ofwisdom is humility.
(38:37):
We never quite know that whenwe don't ever have all the
information possible.
We cannot predict the future.
We can only move forward withprudence, and so try to take it
easy and not be so hard onyourself, because you'll never
just like everything we do.
We do with humility and with alittle bit of like.
(38:59):
Okay, I'm going to try my bestwith the information I have, but
that's all I can do.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Be kind to ourselves and trust the process rather
than yeah, angela, it's been anabsolute pleasure.
Um, I'm definitely going tofollow you on on instagram and
good luck with the work, and theworld needs more people like
you, so thank you for bringingyour amazing light to the
podcast today thank you, chain.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Thank you for what you're doing in the world, for
how you're participating inpeople's healing, for for having
me.
I look forward to following youback on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Thank you so much, angela.
And, dear listeners, as always,stay tuned.
There's a meditation inspiredby today's show.
But everyone, the wonderfulAngela Williams-Gorel, thank you
, angela.
Thank you.
Take care.
Thank you.
Top tips for the meditation iseither sit nice and cross-legged
on the floor with a nicestraight back Always nice to sit
(39:54):
on a block or a cushion or, ifthat's not available for you,
you sit in a chair with the backnice and straight.
The important thing is you'renot slouching, and if you're
(40:18):
doing something that requires alittle concentration, all you
need to do is just pause thisand you can reconvene the
meditation at a time that isgood for you.
If you're doing the meditation,let's begin so for today's
meditation, inspired by Angela'swonderful podcast episode, and
I thought we'd do a meditationfor surrendering, again inspired
by Angela's brilliant words.
So we're going to sit up, niceand tall, whatever that is for
(40:38):
you, and you're going to closethe eyes and, as we breathe in
and out through the nostrils,feel a sense of calmness, a
sense of ease and a sense ofequilibrium, of balance, as we
come into the spring equinox,where the night and day are the
(41:00):
same length, and we're justgoing to sit with our palms
facing up and we're just goinginhale and we're going to
breathe into our being, anythingwhere we may feel stuck or not
sure of where to go next in lifeand we'll see, exhale.
(41:22):
We're going to exhale and feelas if we fill our being with
acceptance of that.
This is where we are right now,but that's okay.
That's okay, for tomorrow is anew day and if anything is
certain in life is it changes,the flux and change of life, and
(41:49):
we just get comfortablethinking actually, yeah, this is
fine, we're okay, we accept.
And to accept is to surrenderand just allow and be.
So can you feel, with yourpalms facing up, that you accept
, you surrender and you allowyourself to be.
(42:12):
No need to tell yourself off orto change or to be any other
way, but just allow yourself tobe who you want to be today.
Today and just allow yourself tobe who you want to be today and
(43:04):
surrender.
Surrender, just like, ah, justlet it all go, let yourself flow
in the moment, feeling as ifyou're supported by divine and
beautiful light.
Surrender, realizing that theperson we're generally the most
(43:26):
hard with is ourselves, theperson we're generally the most
hard with is ourselves, and canwe allow ourselves just that
space to be, to accept, to lovewithout judgment.
Try and navigate life withdiscernment rather than judgment
, with kindness rather thancruelty, with self-care rather
(43:46):
than self-loathing, and justsurrender in that stillness and
be so.
Thank you so much for listening.
Dear listeners, I'm your host,the gentle yoga warrior, and, as
always, do reach out, thank you.
no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Welcome, angela hi, thank you so much for having me,
jane.
I'm really eager to jump intoconversation with you.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I'm so eager to have you on the show as well.
I think our audience is goingto learn a lot from you today.
And um, and what a beautifulbook you've got to share with
the world as well.
I think our audience is goingto learn a lot from you today.
And what a beautiful bookyou've got to share with the
world as well.
So I think it's alwaysimportant to sincerely share
great work like that.
So today I thought we'd talkabout not exclusively, but why
in life, when we've haddifficult decisions, how we can
(04:02):
sometimes worry if we've madethe right choice, and I thought
what about?
What better person to speak tous today than yourself, angela?
Firstly, would you mind sharinga little bit of backstory of
your life's experience so far,your path to our listeners?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
Like all people, my path hasbeen filled with complex choices
, you know, sometimes reallyones that don't impact my life
as much as others, but ones thatchanged the whole trajectory of
my life, where I lived and howI spent my time every day.
(04:41):
And so I really wrote my book,braving Difficult Decisions, out
of my own desire to have ajourney that would walk me,
guide me, through makingdifficult decisions.
I began to think about thisbook in the eight months that I
spent trying to decide if Ishould leave my job or not.
(05:02):
I was a professor at auniversity in the United States
and I'm still in the US, butjust for listeners, depending on
what country you're listeningfrom.
I was up for tenure, which isthe biggest promotion that you
can get as a professor otherthan becoming a full professor,
(05:24):
and it's sort of the unicorntype job in the academy these
days of getting a tenure trackjob and then getting tenure.
It's the thing that we allreally want, that we're taught
to want and to desire in ourcareers, and I wanted it.
I thought at the time, but then, as it was coming for me in
(05:45):
this particular context,different things were arising
for me that were making mequestion whether this was the
place that I should work,especially for the next decades
of my life, whether I should goup for tenure, and it was
surprising because I would havenever thought when I took this
job that that would even be aquestion for me.
(06:05):
But the more that things werehappening around me and within
me, the more I began to realizeI needed to discern whether this
was for me, and I spent eightmonths trying to figure this out
and I really wanted a book thatwould help.
And then I should also say thatin 2020, I went on a journey
(06:27):
for a few months of trying tofigure out if I should stay
married or not, and anyone who'shad this question knows that
that question does not comewithout a lot of wrestling.
No one gets married to leavetheir marriage.
So whether you stay or whetheryou go anytime, you've been
(06:48):
through that process of reallytrying to discern what you
should do.
It's a very heart-rendingprocess.
It's emotional.
There's a lot of questionsabout, I mean, because this
person that you're in arelationship with, you spend all
your time with them.
That's free.
You live with them, your lifeis intertwined with theirs and
(07:11):
so to undo it really feels likean undoing of most of your life.
Really, back to back, within atwo year period, I kept I would
turn to books on guidance and ondiscernment, and I kept wanting
a book that was both practicaland spiritual, a book that would
(07:33):
feel like there was someoneacross from me like, try this
and now think about this, andthen what about these questions?
And I, and so I wrote the kindof book that I longed for during
that time.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And I, and so I wrote the kind of book that I longed
for during that time and that'svery helpful for the world to be
able to have a book, a booklike that, and I really admire
your honesty and what two bigthings to have to kind of
navigate through the job, whichsounds like the dream job, but
in your heart it sounds like youknew that it wasn't the
direction you want to go in andalso like a marriage, like you
said.
We've all been there where wekind of like question and and
(08:08):
like kind of wonder, um I was.
When I was looking at your bookI noticed that you had like
three major strands to it.
Please correct me if I'm not umno, you're right yeah it's like
the um.
First of all, it was a kind ofdiscernment process of how to
make decisions, which sometimesit's so hard to make decisions
(08:31):
for people in general, I thinkand then you took inspiration
from historical figures that hadmade decisions where it was not
necessarily the best thing forthem, but it was the best thing
kind of to do with great stepsof bravery.
(08:53):
And then you also interviewedpeople that um had gone through
different things.
What an amazing three things toput together, and maybe you
could explain a bit more aboutthat to our readers, how that
can help.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, that's perfect, jane.
Thank you so much for bringingthat up.
It was important to me first tolearn from other people who had
written about discernment andwho had written about decision
making and, like I said, thereare books that I read that were
really practical and that werelike these are the five
questions you should ask, orthese are some spiritual
practices that could help you.
(09:29):
But for me, I really wanted ajourney that integrated a number
of things, that didn't feel tooshallow for what I was going
through but also didn't feel socomplex and esoteric or elusive
that I was like I don't reallyknow if I'm doing the right
thing, you know.
And so I really tried to learnfrom other people who've written
(09:53):
about it and then intertwinethe best of what they had
offered into a journey.
Secondly, as you said, I lookedat historical figures, people
living and dead, who I felt likehad not only made really
difficult decisions but who hadlived really boldly, and I
wanted to know what gave themthe ability to do this.
(10:36):
What were, as people in ourlives, trying to make complex
choices?
And one of those big thingsthat I noticed was, at some
point, for all of them, theycouldn't not do what they did.
It was like it kept them awakeat night.
It was like there was thisburning within them.
And I think all of us at somepoint, when we give ourselves
(10:58):
enough time, when we reallyattend to our own souls, to our
inner knowing, as Joy Harjocalls it she's a poet when we
attend to our inner knowing,when we spend time for me as a
person who believes in God, inGod's presence, and when we give
(11:20):
it some time, I think there's aday when we realize I can't not
do this thing, whether it'slike I stay or I go, I say yes
or I say no.
There's a day when we really Ithink we feel in our soul what
we're meant to do.
And I think if we attend to oursouls enough and we really
(11:41):
participate in a meaningfuljourney, then we will have
changed enough within to be ableto do whatever it is that we
need to do.
And I think that's as importantas figuring out what to do is
really preparing our own soul tobe able to have the strength to
do what we need to do.
(12:02):
And then the last part was, yes,like interviewing a number of
people who had made difficultdecisions and trying again to
learn from them as well.
And then I tell seven of thosestories throughout the book, and
that was really meaningful forme.
It helped me to realize whatmakes difficult decisions
(12:22):
difficult for people, what arethe big questions that they have
, what are their biggest hurdles, and so then and then, you know
what did these people do thatreally gave them the courage to
keep moving forward in theirlives, and so I'm hoping that
anyone who reads this book justfeels encouraged at the end of
the day, mostly like, okay, I'mencouraged, I'm braver than I
think.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Perfect, exactly Because sometimes we doubt our
own bravery.
Yes, we have like this kind offear.
When you were saying aboutknowing the right thing to do
I'll just quickly tell you isthat when I was supposed to help
run this course and I knew mydad wasn't well and had been ill
for a long time, but I just hada feeling he was going to die.
(13:06):
So I kind of left the course,even though I let people down to
kind of go and and spend timewith him, and he did.
He died two weeks later.
So I kind of listened to whatwas the right, the right thing
to do and and there was like nodoubt, that's what I had to do,
regardless and everyone wasunderstanding.
But it was so that that came tomy mind when you, when you
shared that that story is thatsometimes we know what kind of
(13:27):
what we need to do, even if it'sthe circumstances that make it
feel difficult.
So as I was reading throughyour book, I found that you know
, we can have like this you hadthe bit about the stirring, but
then the surrender and we canknow what we need to do.
(13:48):
But how does someone accessthat surrender to kind of feel
that trust in God or whatever itis they believe in spiritually,
and how can this book help themwith that?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you spent that
last couple of weeks.
Midst of difficult decisions isdisappoint other people for the
sake of something you know.
I think that the two hardestaspects, probably, of difficult
decision are like disappointingother people and then also
hurting other people.
(14:41):
You know, when we realize that,yeah, yeah, and I can share
more about that there was aparagraph that you wanted me to
to read from my book, so wecould, we could come back to
that.
Yeah, about the paragraph thatI chose, and I think that that's
really connected to what you'resaying.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
It's the surrender part, where you know like
sometimes we call no surrender,or trust in god or, for those
who say it more esoterically,like trust in the divines, and
how your book can help peoplewith that, because I think
surrender is sometimes thebiggest obstacle, for I know
that can sometimes be in my lifedefinitely uh, yeah, and I
(15:20):
think surrender for me, um, Ireally love the idea that in the
word, surrender is render, andso part of surrender is offering
up something for judgment, andto render something is to purify
it, and so surrender isn'tdoing nothing, I think,
(15:41):
sometimes when we think about,and it's not giving up either.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
But so I think if we associate surrender with doing
nothing or giving up, thatsounds like a terrible should do
next what the way forward is.
And if we think about surrenderas a process of purifying our
(16:09):
intentions, of clearing the wayto make a way forward, then I
hope that it feels better to you, even inspiring and helpful.
And I think surrender is a formof acceptance and it doesn't
mean acceptance is differentthan consent.
Acceptance is different thanaffirmation or liking something
(16:32):
Acceptance is.
I realize that this is what itis, this is how my life is at
this moment, and it's thiswillingness to accept that this
is the state of things and alsothat I don't have to be attached
to this state of things.
And so surrender is, mostimportantly, I think, a practice
(16:56):
.
And just like we practice thepiano and we're not just good at
it, most of us don't sit downat a piano and then just like
play like Bach.
You know what I mean.
It takes a lot of action andengagement over time and then
one day we realized that thisthing that was so strange to us
(17:17):
and unfamiliar has become afamiliar action that even maybe
feels like home to us.
So surrender I find it reallypowerful to do bodily forms of
surrender where we really and Iknow that as a yoga practitioner
, you're very, you know, in tunewith your body and what your
body's wisdom, and so I love theidea of taking some sort of
(17:42):
bodily surrender when we'refirst especially trying to
engage in this.
But really, even over time, andso that could look like laying
down in corpse pose on a yogamat where you're laying on your
back, arms and legs outstretched.
It might look like sitting likea child, and I like this where
you know you're hot, you're onyour knees and like you're
sitting up and your hands areout.
(18:04):
If you're in your wheelchair,you're sitting, your hands are
out, maybe your palms are openand you're placing whatever it
is your decision, your question,your situation into your hands,
and then maybe you turn themover and you release it and take
some deep breaths as you dothat, and I think that over time
(18:25):
, as you engage I mean for me myfriend I talk about my friend
Liz in the book and when she wasbeing ordained as a priest, she
laid on the chancel and put herhands on top of each other and
then put her forehead on top ofher hands and just in total
surrender to her vocation, tothe community around her.
(18:47):
That would uphold her to thewisdom of her tradition, and I
think that that's a powerfulform of surrender for us,
especially when we're in reallydifficult like when we just feel
totally helpless and powerlessto just accept that.
That's how I am right now.
I am, I can't see in front ofme, I can't see behind me, and
so as we engage in this practiceof surrender, over time I think
(19:10):
it becomes a natural way thatwe engage our lives.
It can be, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Often by physically kind of going into surrender
position and that's kind of Ican see that it's going to make
one kind of open up a bit, a bitmore to it, rather than you
know, sometimes we think, oh, Imust surrender, and end up not
surrendering by saying I mustsurrender.
So that was, that was veryhelpful.
Um, as I was looking throughyour book, what I found also
(19:38):
very helpful was that you havewith each chapter you have kind
of like a question and then aprayer and then you've got some
actionable things at the back ofyour, your book, of how people
can do that.
I wondered if you would mindsharing an instance of that or,
from you, anything that youwould like so, um, yeah, I felt
(19:59):
like that.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Um, I wanted people to have multiple ways of reading
this book and I was hoping thatit would be the kind of book
that you could return to severaltimes over, like as you have
different decisions that you'remaking in your life, different
questions.
You're trying to answer that.
Sometimes maybe you just have aquestion, like you know, I want
(20:22):
to hear what to do, I need to,you know I need to be studied, I
need to whatever, and that youcould use the questions in the
guiding questions and prayers inthe chapters to go, oh, this is
the chapter I need right now,and so I have a list of all the
questions and prayers on one ofthe pages so that you could,
(20:44):
someone, a reader, could justturn to that and then go oh yeah
, that's what I need right now,and so one of them.
For example, there's a chaptercalled Sifting and it's about
where you're trying to figureout, like, maybe you have two
competing beliefs.
When I was trying to, when I wasgoing up for tenure, for tenure
(21:04):
, one of my beliefs was we needmore women in this department
and so I need to be here as anadvocate of women and as one of
these women boys, we can't haveless women.
If I leave, we're going to haveeven less women who are here,
and that was a really strongbelief of mine.
And then the other belief wasI'm not emotionally and mentally
(21:26):
healthy in this department andthose were competing for me and
I really was trying to figureout which one you know.
And so for the sifting chapter,it says how do I?
The question is, how do I knowwhat is true?
And I don't know that truethere means like for all time,
(21:47):
but for this moment, like whatbelief is the guiding light for
me in this moment?
And then the prayer is teach me.
And so, yeah, the hope there isthat people can ask, you know,
can have these questions, that,can you know that hopefully
these questions are articulatinga question for them that they
(22:08):
really do have?
And then the prayer is just asimple steady me, teach me, lead
me, help me.
That can become sort of this,almost like a breath, practice
as you're doing this journey,Like, okay, I can return to this
little prayer to go.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Okay, I'm not alone do you think it's because we try
to as humans, we try to solveeverything out with ourselves,
and then we put this immensepressure and then we kind of
sometimes like the dog chasingits tail, trying to think where
do I go when we kind ofsurrender into our faith, and
that kind of guides us.
But I like the fact that theprayers are like short sentences
(22:49):
because then it's kind of youknow, it's teach me what.
You can't really go anywhereelse with that, rather than kind
of like listen or surrender andbe, and that's what I
particularly liked.
I liked about your, your work.
So so you said about the twodifficult decisions that you had
to make very close together.
(23:11):
So if I'm a listener, listeningtoday and thinking, oh yeah,
actually I've got to make a bigdecision, there are several ways
they can work through.
Your book isn't there?
Maybe you would like to explain, angela, that'd be great.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So obviously you can just readit from front to back and that's
going to be like a journeywhere you're going to start with
what is the stirring I havewithin?
Can I articulate it?
To myself, to God, to anotherperson I trust?
So you start with being able toarticulate your stirring and
you'll move through the journeyto.
(23:46):
It will take you, throughengaging and surrender, to maybe
finding one or a few otherpeople that you can take this
journey with.
Maybe they also have somedifficult decisions that they're
trying to make and you could dothe journey together.
Or maybe they're just going tobe your friends, your companions
, because they care about youand they want to support you.
And then it'll move you intoworking through difficult
(24:10):
emotions, whatever might becoming up for you fear, anger.
Some really constructive waysof moving through difficult
emotions engaging your body,engaging your mind, all of it
together.
And then beliefs and letting goof whatever you need to let go
of from the past, becausesometimes our past weighs on us
and it makes it hard to keepmoving forward.
(24:31):
Summoning from our stories, ourfamily's history, for strength,
and then thinking through ourvalues, thinking through beliefs
, considering the sorts ofpeople that will maybe make it
difficult for us to make thisdecision, or the kinds of people
we need to support us,filtering our decision through a
(24:52):
number of different you know,when you're having paralysis,
analysis, paralysis I have achapter dedicated to a number of
different ways you could thinkthrough your different
possibilities and really, andthen the idea is that you finish
this journey with a sense ofsated joy, that you have, even
for a couple of minutes, somecontentment in the story that
(25:13):
you're living in.
And it doesn't mean that you'regoing to take this journey and
make even a radical change inyour life.
The radical change might bewithin.
Radical change in your life.
The radical change might bewithin.
It might be that you'retransforming your own
relationship to your life, thatthe way that you look at your
circumstances shifts throughoutthis journey.
(25:34):
But then the second way is whatI was just describing, where you
can look at the questions andthe prayers that are the
heartbeat of each chapter and go.
That's what I need to answerright now.
That is the prayer I need rightnow.
I'm going to go to that chapter.
Or then, finally, you couldstart with the appendix, and in
the appendix there are a numberof exercises that go with each
(25:54):
chapter but you don't have toread the chapter to do the
exercise.
That will wake up your I thinkyou'll feel like it'll wake up
your courage.
It'll wake up, it'll make thedecision feel manageable.
You'll be like, okay, I knowwhat I need to do.
It'll break down the decisioninto parts.
It'll give you like in theseeking chapter.
(26:16):
It gives you a way of meetingwith other people and helping
them help you.
I mean, these are reallyconcrete things to do, practical
tools that will give you a lotof confidence that's really
helpful and and also, people canfit them in their lives.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Can't, because, you know, sometimes people say, oh,
I haven't got time.
But we it's important one thatwe do invest in time in
ourselves.
But I know from experience alittle bit adds up each day.
So you know like people coulddo it as an exercise daily or or
, uh, how many times a week thatthey've got time to kind of fit
in.
So how does um, how do youremember?
(26:55):
Sorry, yeah, I was gonna say Iwas gonna ask you this actually.
So, yes, how can we find faithand trust in a painful process?
You know these really painfulthings like, I don't know, grief
and difficult, all awful thingsthat can happen.
So how can we find the faithand trust in that painful
(27:16):
process, especially whensometimes we may feel like a
victim or things aren't workingout the way we want them to be?
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I think that that's where the surrender chapter
becomes helpful again is that wereturn to surrender when we're
feeling those difficult emotionsrising up in us, finding a form
of surrender that helps us totake some deep breaths and to
just realize.
This is difficult, this is hard, this is hard on my soul, like
(27:46):
I am grieving, I am scared, anynumber of things.
I'm saying that that is myreality right now and I'm not
detached from that reality.
I am facing it, I amrecognizing it and also I have
an awareness of it.
But also I'm not alone.
God is guiding me.
The universe is going to showme what to do.
I won't always feel the waythat I do right now.
(28:10):
And then also that's where thesensing chapter is really
helpful.
I have ways of just reallyworking through an emotion, and
so you could take something likeif you're really experiencing
deep grief, that you start withwhere you feel that in your body
.
I love my therapist has taughtme that you know when I was
(28:33):
feeling it deeply in my if Ifelt like an elephant was on my
chest when I was grieving, togrunt several times loudly.
If I'm here, if I'm feeling itlike I have a you know, a pit in
the middle of my stomach that Ihum several times loudly, and
this is a way of you know.
So you're finding a bodily wayof releasing your grief.
(28:54):
This could look like allowingyourself to cry.
It could look like dancing.
It could look like getting atowel and wringing it through
your hand and imagining that.
That's you like wringing outyour emotions.
You know, putting on music andallowing it to draw you into
(29:16):
tears and really being.
I think it's important that wegive ourselves permission to
grieve when it rises up in usand that we release that in some
way so that it doesn't stay inhere.
But then I think it's aboutlike I have this practice of
lament in the sensing chapter.
(29:37):
I think it's important that welearn how to lament A lot of
like.
Some cultures are really goodat this.
Some people come from acommunity where lament has
rituals that help them to workthrough it.
But if you come from a culturewhere it's really buttoned up
and people don't share theiremotions people don't cry around
(29:57):
each other, people don't thenwe don't know a lot of times how
to work through our grief, howto actually allow it to teach us
something, to show us somethingand really, at the end of the
day, grief is usually anotherform of love, right, it's that
(30:18):
we have, in some way, we feeldisconnected from or have lost
something that we love, and sowe need to give ourselves
permission to say I loved that,I lost that, and so lament.
I love this three part of lament.
One is naming.
This is what has happened.
This is what I'm sad about.
Questioning is the second partAsking questions of the universe
(30:40):
, of God, of others, like inwriting, or it might look like a
voice memo that you leave toyourself and then, or that you
just talk, you know, say it outloud, and then the final part is
imagining If this situationwere to shift, if I were to be
transformed through it, if Iwere to learn something, if God
(31:01):
were to break into thissituation, if you know, what
might this look like?
If I were to be comforted, howwould that look?
You know that sort of thing anda process like that helps us, I
think, to realize that we'renot crazy for being sad, that
(31:23):
we're being very human.
It's a very human experiencethat we're having and it's a
good thing yeah, absolutely itis.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Sometimes we can shut ourselves off from our emotions
and and by allowing to feel it,I feel that we become whole
again, because you know, yes,it's like we can, we're meant to
feel, feel them and then we cankind of release them.
Um, is there anything?
Is the one thing that youwished everybody knew?
And also a bit of an open endedquestion, but I just I always
find this fascinating and alsovery helpful is is the one thing
(31:54):
in life that you wish everybodyknew, and if so, what was that?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
there's so many things, so many things.
Um, wow, where where do I start?
How do I just put it into onething?
I think that I put this in thebook, like your story is
important, and if you're sittinghere, listening, still
(32:25):
breathing, it's not the end here, listening, still breathing,
it's not the end.
Your story can always be edited.
You can you still haveparagraphs to write, you know.
But and so I'm glad you're here, we're glad you're here, I'm
(32:51):
glad that you are alive and thatyou're contributing your story
to this planet.
And the story that you'rewriting is not just important if
people you know, if it's famousor if it makes a lot of money
or anything like that.
It's important just becauseyou're existing and breathing as
yourself, and and so it mightsound cliche, but no one's ever
lived that's like you.
You are the only you that hasever been and that will ever be.
(33:16):
You're a very unique person onthis earth just by being you,
and so that's a beautiful thing.
I hope you feel loved.
I hope you feel dignified andworthy, just as you are today.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Listen to that, I feel so calm and it just feels
so reassuring.
So I'm describing that so so,so well.
Angie, would you mind reading aparagraph from your book?
I always think it means morewhen the author reads it.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I did read this book foraudible and, uh, it's always fun
yeah, it's always fun to be inthe studio doing that but it's
also nerve-wracking becauseyou're like, did I pronounce
that?
I think so, you know.
Um, but yeah, we, I was sayingthat I, we kind of alluded to
this earlier, um, but so on page150 and 151, I have this
(34:11):
paragraph and it's in the lastchapter, but it says Sometimes
you come to know the thing youneed to do but don't want to do
it because you know it willbreak your heart.
Maybe it will break someoneelse's heart too.
It is one thing to ask God forwhat to do and another to pray
to have the strength to do itwhen you know what you need to
(34:32):
do.
When we are making a decisionthat hurts, we are often
choosing between familiar andunfamiliar pain.
We are choosing between a painwe have ways of managing and a
pain we are unsure how to treat,and most of us favor pain we
already know how to manage.
My friend Michaela I quote herin the next paragraph she says
(34:57):
that most of us prefer chronicpain over acute pain, and I
think that this was something.
Yeah, I learned a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Oh, wow, that's fantastic and I really enjoyed
your book and I'm going to buysome copies for for gifts as
well, for people as well.
If I'm a listener listeningright now, how can they reach
out and and what services, um,and all your consulting and
things like that can you, couldyou explain for them?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I love so much to hear fromreaders and so if you read any
one of my books, please feelfree to message me through my
website, which is just my name,wwwangelagorellcom, and my last
name has it's go with two R'sand two L's, so G-O-R-R-E-L-Lcom
(35:51):
.
You can message me through mywebsite.
I love, like I said, I'd loveto hear from you.
I do one-on-ones with peopleoccasionally, where I meet with
people for spiritual directionor coaching and then but then I
also I mostly spend my timeleading retreats and giving
keynotes and stuff like that,and so you can contact me
(36:14):
through my website for anythingof that nature.
But I also would love to befriends.
So if you want to be friendsthrough Instagram or Facebook or
TikTok, you can find me at allthose places, just at angela
garell will help, you know.
You'll be able to find me onany of those places.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah, I'll make sure I put those details in the show
notes as well, so in case anyonemissed that.
But uh, and if I want to buyyour book, I noticed we've got
it on like it's on amazon uk,amazon us.
I'm sure it's amazon worldwideand it's it's available.
I know it's available in the UKin hardback copy and also
(36:52):
Kindle.
And you've just said thatyou're doing the Audible version
as well.
When's that out, the Audible?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, it actually.
It's already finished and it'sbeen in processing at Audible
and so it should be live.
It might be live today.
It'll be live any day now.
Yeah, so you could check.
If you prefer Audible, it'll belive any day now.
Yeah, so you could check if youlove, if you, if you prefer
audible, it'll be live any daynow perfect.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Well, I'll make sure again.
I'll put some details of that.
So just thank you, go, angela,I'm mindful of the time.
I could talk to you forever.
Is there anything we feel thatwe have covered that you'd like
to share as a leaving note?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, I think that the last thing I'd love to share
is just that, if you're worriedabout regretting your decision,
I just invite you to think backto what I just said about being
able to edit the paragraph thatyou're living in.
You know, we can always keepediting, we can always keep
trying to make sure that we feelgood about the story that we're
(37:52):
living, and so part of thejourney of making difficult
decisions, I think, is if wetake a wrong turn or what to us
feels like a wrong turn or amistake, that forgiveness is
always available.
You can forgive yourself fortaking a wrong turn, like you
can forgive yourself for takinga wrong turn, and that that's
(38:14):
why there's other people to relyon as well to help you through
anything like that.
And then also a lot of peopleask me like how do you know when
it's the right thing?
I mean, you might feel thatinner knowing, but you still are
like but we always makedifficult decisions with great
humility.
We always make difficultdecisions with great humility.
All of us.
I mean even the wisdomliterature in the Bible, for
example, the chief aspect ofwisdom is humility.
(38:37):
We never quite know that whenwe don't ever have all the
information possible.
We cannot predict the future.
We can only move forward withprudence, and so try to take it
easy and not be so hard onyourself, because you'll never
just like everything we do.
We do with humility and with alittle bit of like.
(38:59):
Okay, I'm going to try my bestwith the information I have, but
that's all I can do.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Be kind to ourselves and trust the process rather
than yeah, angela, it's been anabsolute pleasure.
Um, I'm definitely going tofollow you on on instagram and
good luck with the work, and theworld needs more people like
you, so thank you for bringingyour amazing light to the
podcast today thank you, chain.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Thank you for what you're doing in the world, for
how you're participating inpeople's healing, for for having
me.
I look forward to following youback on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Thank you so much, angela.
And, dear listeners, as always,stay tuned.
There's a meditation inspiredby today's show.
But everyone, the wonderfulAngela Williams-Gorel, thank you
, angela.
Thank you.
Take care.
Thank you.
Top tips for the meditation iseither sit nice and cross-legged
on the floor with a nicestraight back Always nice to sit
(39:54):
on a block or a cushion or, ifthat's not available for you,
you sit in a chair with the backnice and straight.
The important thing is you'renot slouching, and if you're
(40:18):
doing something that requires alittle concentration, all you
need to do is just pause thisand you can reconvene the
meditation at a time that isgood for you.
If you're doing the meditation,let's begin so for today's
meditation, inspired by Angela'swonderful podcast episode, and
I thought we'd do a meditationfor surrendering, again inspired
by Angela's brilliant words.
So we're going to sit up, niceand tall, whatever that is for
(40:38):
you, and you're going to closethe eyes and, as we breathe in
and out through the nostrils,feel a sense of calmness, a
sense of ease and a sense ofequilibrium, of balance, as we
come into the spring equinox,where the night and day are the
(41:00):
same length, and we're justgoing to sit with our palms
facing up and we're just goinginhale and we're going to
breathe into our being, anythingwhere we may feel stuck or not
sure of where to go next in lifeand we'll see, exhale.
(41:22):
We're going to exhale and feelas if we fill our being with
acceptance of that.
This is where we are right now,but that's okay.
That's okay, for tomorrow is anew day and if anything is
certain in life is it changes,the flux and change of life, and
(41:49):
we just get comfortablethinking actually, yeah, this is
fine, we're okay, we accept.
And to accept is to surrenderand just allow and be.
So can you feel, with yourpalms facing up, that you accept
, you surrender and you allowyourself to be.
(42:12):
No need to tell yourself off orto change or to be any other
way, but just allow yourself tobe who you want to be today.
Today and just allow yourself tobe who you want to be today and
(43:04):
surrender.
Surrender, just like, ah, justlet it all go, let yourself flow
in the moment, feeling as ifyou're supported by divine and
beautiful light.
Surrender, realizing that theperson we're generally the most
(43:26):
hard with is ourselves, theperson we're generally the most
hard with is ourselves, and canwe allow ourselves just that
space to be, to accept, to lovewithout judgment.
Try and navigate life withdiscernment rather than judgment
, with kindness rather thancruelty, with self-care rather
(43:46):
than self-loathing, and justsurrender in that stillness and
be so.
Thank you so much for listening.
Dear listeners, I'm your host,the gentle yoga warrior, and, as
always, do reach out, thank you.
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