August 11, 2020 • 36 mins
Hosts Z and Jess discuss what it means to be antiracist and potential pitfalls with the momentum the term is receiving right now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to awaken in America
Speaker 2 (00:05):
On a journey to create dialogue about diversity,
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Inclusion and optimism.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome back listeners.
We are here host Jess and hosts.
XE.
Hope everybody's having a greatday.
Today is episode three.
We are discussing anti-racismand what that means, and just to
start off with a thought in anarticle that came to my
attention in the Atlantic aboutthe potential pitfalls with the
(00:45):
momentum behind white,progressive white people that
are good intentioned.
That's what I mean.
When I say white, progressive,there's kind of a whole book
about white fragility that Robinde Angela wrote that I
referenced some times basicallyit means people who are white
that think they're forwardthinking things.
They aren't racist on paper,they aren't, but it is still
(01:08):
worth examining within yourself,implicit bias and acknowledging
systemic racism.
And, you know, that's kind ofwhere I'm going with that when I
speak about white progressives.
But, um, the Atlantic articlethat I read was talking
specifically about books aboutanti-racism that are outright.
Now, there's one by dr.
Abraham X Kendi called how to bean anti-racist.
(01:28):
And I think it's flying off theshelves and as well as white
fragility by Robin D'Angelo thatI mentioned white people are
trying to understand how to bebetter, how to be anti-racist.
And there's a distinction therebecause not being racist, doing
over, you know, a really hatefulthings is different than, um,
actually being an anti-racistrecognizing racism and standing
(01:51):
up for it and trying to makechanges.
But the point in the Atlanticarticle, which I thought was
relevant is there's a lot ofmomentum.
It's become kind of almost atrend for people, white people
to be protesting and buyingbooks and doing the black square
on their Instagram page andthings like that.
And I think by, by no means, amI saying those aren't good
(02:13):
things, but I think it'simportant that white people
don't sort of rely on those andsay, now that I've done those
things, I'm anti-racist, andthat was the point that the
article made too, is it takes alot of, it's a lifelong process.
I think it's a lifelong journeythat we all need to be up for if
(02:34):
we really want to embraceanti-racism and embrace this
idea of wanting to do thingsthat are going to change the
current state.
And how did you, I mean, I knowall of this is relatively new
for you too.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Um, I know that many progressive whites even thinking
about themselves
Speaker 3 (03:00):
In the same category as a racist would be like mind
blowing because, you know, ifyou don't use, like you said,
the N word, or, you know, if youdon't do overtly racist things,
right, then it would make senseto you that, well, I'm not a
racist because I obviously don'tdo overly racist things.
(03:20):
Right.
But it's the not promotingqualified black candidates for
senior level management.
It's the going into a store and,you know, seeing a black person
(03:43):
nearby and pulling your backcloser that even happened to my
husband, um, who was dressed ina business suit when he was a
consultant and he works in itand a white woman pulled her bag
closer to her in an elevator.
So of course he was veryoffended
Speaker 2 (04:03):
That is mind blowing
Speaker 3 (04:06):
And, you know, um,
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And I just want to point out to my white friends,
even if you feel like you're intouch with the African American
community, because you have afriend who's African-American
and you know, you have arelative who's African American
or whatever, they probably haveexperienced racism and not that
(04:36):
long ago.
And you should check in withthem on that because these are
people, you know, I am findingthis myself.
I've always thought like, Oh,you know, I'm sure my friends,
this stuff doesn't happen to myfriends that are different
colors, people of color, becauseyou know, they're successful.
They're great citizens of theworld.
(04:59):
They're, you know, they checkall the boxes.
I'm sure this stuff doesn'thappen to them.
It must happen to other peopleof color that I don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Right.
But there is no distinction.
Like I was saying, there's nodistinction.
You know, when, when, when theysee our Brown skin, that's it
that's the line.
And, and I'm not gonna say thatit's, I'm not going to say that.
I think that whites arepurposefully doing this.
(05:30):
Okay.
I, there are some whites thatare racist and there are some
double pers purposefully dodiscriminatory things.
But I think that much of it iswhat we call implicit bias,
which is basically, you've beenso ingrained and indoctrinated
based on central little child,what you learned about Barbie
(05:52):
dolls or what you learned aboutyour blonde here.
Um, my daughter now loves thatshe's in love with Elsa and
she's like, why is my hair notlike elses?
You know?
Um, it's, it's, it's thisconstant indoctrination that
white is better.
And that Brown is actuallynegative.
(06:13):
It's not that Brown is okay,it's that Brown is actually
negative, right?
So it's like every, you know,there were certain networks that
were actually responsible fordoing this, but you know,
constantly showing, you know, if, if, if a white criminal
committed the same crime, theywouldn't show their face.
(06:33):
But if a black criminalcommitted the same crime, they
would show their face on thenews.
Even if they were 14 or 15, ateenager just to like reinforce
that Oh, black is negative.
Right.
So I think that that constantbrainwashing is what I'm going
to call it.
Cause that's what it is thatconstant brainwashing has made
(06:57):
many white people, just suspectsof black people.
And I give a perfect example ofa black man who was killed
outside of a Starbucks.
Um, I'm trying to remember, Ithink it was in the Midwest,
maybe Wisconsin or Ohio.
I can't remember for sure.
(07:18):
But he was waiting on a bitchthat was outside of a Starbucks
for his brother.
They were meeting up and amanager in the Starbucks.
Now I don't know why this personwould call, like, they're not
busy enough perhaps, but theycalled and this person wasn't
homeless.
They were just a normal blackperson sitting on a bench called
(07:38):
the police about the black mansitting on the bench.
And the police came, the manended up dead as a result.
Young man, I think the man wasonly in his maybe late twenties,
something like that ended updead.
And now we ask ourselves, well,how did that happen?
(07:59):
How did that happen?
Well, because he was black,right?
Because if a white person weresitting on the bench with a
manager have called, right.
So it's these, it's these biasesthat saying lack is negative.
And then, because it's like thissubconscious and brain washing
type of thing, you don't evenrealize that you're doing this
(08:22):
over and over and over and overagain.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And if somebody is a white person is saying, well, he
shouldn't have been sitting onthe bench or, well, he should
have, you know, defending it,they're missing the point.
The point is he shouldn't havebeen killed.
Right.
And if he were white, hewouldn't have
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Right.
He probably would still bealive.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And there was nothing, you know, actually one
of the things I was listening tothis reminds me of something,
dr.
Kennedy was saying the author ofhow to be an antiracist.
He was about the impact of theGeorge Floyd video.
And he was saying, prior to thatvideo, there might've been
footage or other things, youknow, injustice, criminal sort
(09:07):
of police brutality events, orvideos that people had seen.
But it was easier to say, well,it happened because he did this
or this person of color didthis.
So that's why it happened.
Right.
But the George Floyd video isdifferent because you really
can't find any reason for whythat man lost his life.
(09:33):
Right.
And I think that's why it'staken, hold the way that it has
for white people, you know?
And, um,
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I think it's, I think that what the acknowledgement
of, yes, there, there issystemic racism and yes, we, you
know, we need to do somethingabout, it needs to accompany an
understanding of what the biasdoes to black people, right.
(10:05):
And the fear, yes.
The feet, the, um, the PTSDanxiety stress.
Um, there was just a video theother day, literally I think
yesterday about a black womanwho was taking her daughters to
a nail shop.
They were like, I think 13 yearsand up or 12 years in, uh,
(10:29):
teenagers, four of them, fourgirls, they were made, they were
stopped by the police.
They were in a parking lot.
They were made to get out of thevehicle and all lay face down on
the pavement with guns drawn.
Um, and you know why?
Because they had wronginformation that the car was
(10:52):
stolen.
So it was not that car, the carwas not stolen.
And yet here were 14 agerslength based on the ground were
girls and their mother with gunsdrunk.
So we have to ask ourselves,what kind of, what kind of
longterm affects society do wewant to have for our children?
Do we want a society that'sbuilt on this fear, this, yeah.
(11:17):
This, you know, police aresupposed to be good.
You know, there's supposed to belike the superheroes, but for
the black community, that's,that's obviously not the case.
Um, because too many of us havejust faced racism for doing
nothing, walking down thestreet.
I mean, we have, we haveaccounts now, video accounts of
police brutality on black peoplefor absolutely no reason.
(11:43):
And again, it goes back to thebrainwashing that black people
are not as human.
They're not as worthy of beingtreated with respect.
They, they don't deserve it.
They don't require it feelings.
(12:05):
Aren't important.
You know, it's almost like thatslave mentality.
I hate to say it, but it reallymakes me think about slavery,
how we were like the huddle,here's the price for cattle.
Here's how much that personcosts.
So that mentality has thatbrainwashing has not left our
society because a black life isvalued less than a white life.
(12:31):
Right.
That's what that means.
Otherwise.
How could someone do that toanother human being?
Well, because you value themless, you're like a dog or less
than a dog.
So therefore you can get awaywith mistreating them like this
and, and the, the, the stress ofconstantly being, um, surveyed,
(12:53):
like, you know, it's like onlyyou're thinking about who's
watching us, my husband, youknow, he he's concerned about
what he does when he's in astore because people may be
looking at him like he's goingto steal something.
Absolutely absurd.
Like every day this happens.
I go into department stores, I'min the more expensive section
(13:16):
and I hear it meaning whichmeans they're following me.
I mean, it's, and now I have todeal with that.
Every time I go into the store.
So I know before I get into thestore, then I'm dealing with
that.
And I'm a paying customer.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And more than that, I think it just is so personal
when they know you.
And I know the person that youare to hear this like real life
example of the racism you dealwith every day, you know, and
you don't have a lot ofopportunities to get to this
point in a friendship or in aconversation with a friend, I
(13:56):
think as a white person, becauseit's so uncomfortable and it's
uncomfortable for you toacknowledge.
And it's uncomfortable for me tohear, but it's so important that
people in America, white peopleparticularly hear it and
understand this is stillhappening.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
It's real.
It's like everyday real
Speaker 2 (14:18):
At our leg.
I said everything like your Syou know, you think of yourself
as successful and educated andall that stuff.
These are people that are yourequivalent, but just because
they're not white, they aredealing with this stuff that a
lot of white people think endedwith civil rights or the
(14:38):
emancipation proclamation.
You know, I mean, this is stillhappening every single day to
the people, you know, and thepeople you love.
And if you're able to have aconversation about it or dial
into that, you will learn a lotfrom making a point to check in
with your friend aboutexperience they've had or how
(14:59):
this whole movement is affectingthem.
And you can grow from thatbecause then it does become
personal.
Then it does feel like it'shappening within your circle.
And you will be moreincentivized to do something
about it because you care aboutthat person.
And there's no avoiding it.
It's not all that.
It's not the people that I knownow it's out there now.
(15:21):
It's acknowledged it is thepeople, you know, and the people
you love and the people you careabout, you know?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And, um, and like you said, acknowledgement, um, I, I
told you about a couple of whitefriends of mine that, you know,
with the whole black livesmatter, uh, the protesting and
everything that was going on,but I, you know, I didn't even
get a phone call.
I didn't get a text or anythingto say, you know, Hey, how are
you doing?
Or, you know, you know, I knowit's not your family member, but
(15:51):
I'm still sorry that thishappened to a person of color.
Like nobody said that, but you,you said that.
And, you know, and that's why Ifelt comfortable enough to, you
know, share, share and expressmy true feelings with you,
instead of just saying, yeah,you know, we're fine, you know,
(16:13):
just dealing with it or, youknow, whatever the case may be.
Um, I actually took time to talkto you about it because it's
important enough to talk aboutand, and yeah,
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Bringing it up too.
It wasn't like, I didn't feellike it was appropriate to just
be like, Hey, how are you today?
Some really sad headlines,
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Step.
But like, I put it togetherfinally, you know, that this was
deserving of a serious change,you know, and a serious part of
my life that I needed to learnabout and dial into.
And you were kind enough to giveme that opportunity, you know,
(16:55):
but to that end, I think a lotof white people are probably
going what is appropriate, youknow?
And even myself, like I toldyou, I ran into a woman I know
from the kids' school the otherday.
And I hadn't seen her sinceCOVID and all of that, she's
African American.
And I was so excited to see herand we don't know each other,
well, we always beside eachother in passing, but it was
(17:16):
like I was frozen.
I mean, part of it was becausemy kids were freaking out and
wanting to leave, but I couldn'tcollect my thoughts enough to be
like, to express my condolences,my sympathy, my empathy for
what's happening related toblack lives matter, you know?
And I felt guilty about that.
And I was actually really mad,extra mad at my kids for not
(17:36):
giving me space to communicatewhat I wanted to communicate.
Cause I don't know when I'll seeher again, you know what I mean?
The schools are closed andeverything else.
So to that point, what do youthink is appropriate?
You know,
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Um, I think that, like I said, just being honest
in some honestly say, but I justwant to let you know that I
think that this is crazy.
It's insane.
And, um, you know, I'm sorry,I'm, I'm awakening to the fact
that this has been going onunder my nose and I wasn't aware
(18:17):
of it and this is impacting you.
And now, you know, like, I'mjust, I'm sorry, like, I'm
sorry.
I mean, and I'm sorry is veryvaluable.
And just, just to make anotherpoint, I think it's important
for people to consider thelanguage that they're using with
black and Brown people.
(18:38):
If you have a grandchild, abiracial adopted child, um, a
half sibling, whatever the casemay be, you need to do
discontinue the use of focusingon our complexion, on our hair,
texture and focus on ourcharacter.
(19:01):
It's insensitive.
And we don't like questionslike, is that your real hair?
Of course, it's our real here.
It's a test to our head who doesthat?
It's the insensitive thatdehumanizes people.
And you add to the PTSD byconstantly.
(19:24):
Um, you, you're making us notjust aware that we're different,
but you're almost insinuatingthat we're not as good as you
are.
And your, and, and so you'regiving us an inferiority
complex.
When in the back of our minds,we know we're not inferior, but
it's just this constantnitpicking at our confidence and
(19:50):
at our culture and at ourphysical being, it's this
constant nitpicking that reallyis racist and it's, and it's not
the racism that says you're aninward, right?
It's the racism of thebrainwashing.
But you have to, you have tounlearn these things.
(20:13):
You pull it to your friends, youowe it to biracial and
multiracial family members.
You owe it to your society as ahuman to learn these things.
It's not okay to be like, well,I may have said, no, you know
what you said?
And if that person is in yourRolodex, you need to say, I'm
(20:36):
sorry, you need to admit whatyou did so that that person can
have healing and that so thatyou can have a context to move
forward and say, now Iunderstand, now I'm going to do
better brushing it under therug.
Like we've been doing for years.
Like people have been doing foryears.
(20:57):
That is why everything came tothe surface and bubbled over
this because doing that, that'snot working.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of whitepeople and myself included have
felt held back by, you know, Iwill, I don't want to come off
disingenuous by putting up ablack lives matter sign or
saying something to a friend Ihave of color, because I don't
want them to think I'm just likebeing fake or, you know, we've
never talked about anything likethis before.
(21:26):
So was it really random of me toreach out to that?
Would you say, like, forgetabout that.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I mean, you know, w whatever your feelings are,
those are feelings of guilt, ofshame, of whatever those are
your feelings, right.
That have your feelings.
I think about the other person'sfeelings.
That's what I would say to them.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
That's a really good takeaway.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it can't hurtand it might help, you know, so
we need to be okay with puttingourselves out there more.
And
Speaker 3 (21:59):
The benefit that comes from it, when you do that,
like, you're actually allowing aperson to feel like you see
them.
Right.
And that's, I mean, how powerfulis that?
You know,
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And I think it's actually reminds me of a
conversation we had once whereyou were saying, sometimes you
feel like you have to have aseparate conversation, a
separate kind of a conversationwith a white person versus an
African American person and, ora person of color.
And I feel like that was news tome.
(22:34):
You know, that, that was, again,still a thing that you don't
feel like you can talk about thesame things.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Right.
You know, because, you know, Ithink I was talking about like
how barbecues or, you know, workfunctions, uh, that many, many
white people tend to focus ontheir accomplishments and their
money and things like this.
You know, whereas black people,we feel accomplished.
(23:02):
Um, but because of theoppressive circumstances that we
have faced in this country, wehave learned to identify
ourselves by so much more.
So we don't need to talk aboutour money.
We don't need to talk about whatjobs we have, because we know
that that's not where our worthlives.
(23:25):
If we believed that, then wewould really be screwed.
So you have to believe so muchmore about ourselves because
just because you're not givingus the managerial position
doesn't mean I'm not qualifiedto be a manager.
It means to me the position.
Right.
So we don't need to focus onthose things.
What we focus on is buildingother, up, giving each other
(23:46):
encouragement and, um, yeah.
And keeping our family tiesstrong, what, you know, so
that's, that's, what's importantto us.
And so care we test, you know,um, and part of that self care
is also being able to talk toeach other and be real about the
things that we're facing,because you know, part of it is
(24:09):
just, I mean, I'll be honestwith you is that I was careful,
even in the language that wespoke, you know, in my texts,
because I was like, okay, whitefragility, baby steps.
And I heard about the book, yougot to kind of test the
audience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't actually have a phrasefor it, but I knew that, Oh, you
(24:32):
gotta be a little bit careful.
And it's kind of like what yousaid, you said, I noticed that I
am kind of like that with mykids.
And I said to you, well, youknow, they're still young.
I said, but yeah, we don't havethat opportunity coddling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I said, we can't afford to, thisis actually a word for it.
(24:54):
We can't afford to mollycoddleour kids, because we know that
society is going to look at anine year old boy and then
pretend he's a man.
If he does crime as an whitenine year old boy, do you think
that the same thing happens to ablack child that does that as a
white child?
No, let's not.
(25:15):
So we can't afford tomollycoddle our children.
We have to from an early age andit's not, Oh, black people are
so strong that it's because wehave to be for a survival
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And set of skills.
And I remember you saying aboutin that same conversation we had
where I said, I feel like Icaught all my kids sometimes.
And it occurred to me thatthat's a privilege that I'm able
to do that.
Um, and I remember you saying tothat, it's almost like as an
African American mom, you havelike this taking away of their
(25:50):
innocence at an earlier agebecause you have to teach them
things or skills or make themaware of how the world works
right.
For before their whitecounterpart, you know, because
it doesn't affect kids.
(26:12):
So you know, it, it's not a
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Yes.
And then once again, you know,then we had the brainwashing of
white teachers, even, you know,about the potential of black
children, you know, it's like,um, and once again, it's, it's
this whole psychological thingthat is indoctrination and it's
(26:36):
brainwashing.
It's just being, it's like, ifyou showed a picture over and
over and over again, that'snegative.
Right?
And like, like you saw a blackperson, like let's say a cartoon
of a black person stealingsomething and in a white person
doing something constructive, ifyou show them that over and over
and over again, and the timeyou're like, you know, five,
(26:57):
four or five years old, thenyou're gonna start to believe
the picture.
And that's, and I feel likethat's the frame that our
founders kind of created.
And, you know, you know, withthe United daughters of the
Confederates, like with thepublic schooling education and
how they tried to make slaverylook like it was a positive
(27:18):
thing.
Um, and how the, you know, theSouthern Confederates were like
martyrs, um, that, that wholesystemic indoctrination creates
people then.
And that's, that's why you and Iare doing the podcast.
Cause we're like, this can'tcontinue because it's going to
(27:39):
impact our children.
This brainwashing needs to stopsomewhere.
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So the anti-racist takeaway I would have as, as dr.
Kennedy mentions in his book isI anti-racism is seeing racism
and having a problem with it.
So we white people, you mightconsider yourself not racist,
but that's different than beinganti-racist.
If you want to get behind theanti-racist movement, it's a
(28:06):
shift in thinking and it doesn'tcome by just reading a book,
it's actually having a problemwith it.
And speaking up, making peoplefeel uncomfortable if that's
what it takes.
And I'm sure this is going totake a lot of Finessin and trial
and error probably.
(28:26):
Um, I mean, I feel like I'vedabbled in this before calling
people out for inappropriatethings, but certainly not to the
extent that I plan to now, youknow, moving forward in my life.
But, um, I feel like I'm alittle bit further down, you
know, my journey on this pathand some of my white friends.
So for those starting out, it's,it could be as simple as just
(28:46):
having this conversation withyour friends of color and
opening that dialogue so thatyou can understand the
situations they've been in.
And then when you see ithappening, again,
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Learning some history so that no, you're not, uh, so
that you have some, someunderstanding of why things are
the way they are so that you canempathize with the things that
we are experiencing.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Right.
And I remember when we firststarted this and I said, where
should I start?
And you were like, honestly, Ifeel like you need to read about
the boats that the slaves weretaken to the colonies on and the
conditions.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah.
And you wanted to pick up like,
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's like ready to pick up like dr.
King and like, yeah, like this,you're like, no, you don't
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Get again.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
And yeah.
And read, you know, accounts andpeople, you know, being chained
and having no bathroomdeprecating where they, you
know, in the hole that theywere, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
It's like a black Holocaust.
I mean, I, you know, I'm nottrying to steal that away from
Jewish people, but in a sense ofthat, millions of us died just
on the journey over and continueto die once we got here, um,
it's a Holocaust that's nottalked about in this country.
(30:20):
And, um, and like I said, Ithink that in embracing and
understanding that piece, thenwe can also understand, we have
Hispanic children, uh, ages now,native Americans.
And what happened with themreally progressing when we're
repeating, we're just going in acircle, actually on shine.
(30:44):
They said, it's movement, butit's not progression me going in
a circle.
It's interesting, you know, 50years from now, do we want our
kids to be having these sameconversations, but do we want to
be someplace else?
Right.
Not necessarily Mars, but, youknow, although my kids would
love that.
I think they ask about that alot.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah.
I think it was, um, JamesBaldwin, who said in his book,
something about white people aretrapped in a history.
They don't understand.
And until they understand it,they can't be set free, you
know, something along thoselines.
It wasn't exactly that part, theset free part I made up.
But, um, something like that.
Yeah.
(31:28):
That's, that's the point.
And I think, um, we're at apoint where we can do it and
it's going to be uncomfortableand it's going to require effort
and a shift in mindset and a lotof inner dialogue taking a look
at yourself, you know, andexamining parts of yourself that
(31:48):
you've never really examinedbefore.
Cause you haven't had to, um,
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I understand that I want, you know, the white
progressives as you called them,you know, I want them to also
understand that, you know, thatblacks understand that there are
whites out there who don't agreewith what has gone on.
And, um, and we also understandthat much of this is new for
(32:15):
you.
Okay.
So we do understand that you mayneed to take baby steps, but
what we want you to do is tostill engage us, you know, still
engage us.
And, and don't think that thisproblem is insurmountable.
We've unified to do certainthings, not the masks, but we've
unified to do things.
(32:38):
So we do it again.
We all work together.
It can maybe happen fasterinstead of it taking like, I
don't know, a decade orsomething like let's work
together so that we can makethese changes in a timeframe
that we can actually see theprogress.
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah.
I think that's a great takeaway.
And actually on that note, it'sactually really hard for me
sometimes too, to remember theoptimism part of our podcast,
because this is such a heavytopic.
And, um, I think that's justimportant for people to
understand, you know, who we'relistening to.
Mainly, you know, the fivefriends I have that are kind
(33:21):
enough to do it.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
All of you out there.
No, but seriously, I think weneed to treat this seriously,
this topic, but understand thatthere is there's hope, hope.
Yeah.
And remember that when it feelsinsurmountable and it feels to
have the in to bag to deal with,and you kind of just want to
(33:47):
revert back to, you know, yourwhite, progressive place and not
push yourself.
We have to kind of remember thatthis is a movement and this is
going to be written about in thehistory books.
And this is a chance to makechanges, starting from whatever
point you are, you know, in thejourney, if you are willing and
(34:08):
open to making those changes inyour life.
That's great.
And that's, what's gonna make adifference, you know?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Being on the right side of history so that you can
tell your children, you know,what you did to change things.
I mean, how powerful is that,you know, to be able to express
that to your children and say,you know what, there wasn't
justice and this is what I didabout it.
And having, you know, that's, tome, that's, that's what it's all
(34:40):
about really well guys, it hasbeen great speaking with you
today about anti-racism and whatit means, what it means to us.
We hope that it has beenempowering and enlightening for
you.
It was a very heavy topic.
It was a heavy topic for us todiscuss amongst ourselves.
(35:03):
And we appreciate you listening,and we appreciate you passing on
this information.
It is so vital to pass thisinformation along and not just
keep it to yourselves.
So
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, don't get in your own way.
Don't overthink.
It.
Don't feel like you're, um,disingenuous or not able to have
these conversations amonganybody white, other white
friends, people of color, youknow, feel like you can, uh, you
can make a difference just bysocializing it.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yes.
Just take first step.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Thanks everyone.
Thank you for listening toawakened and America.
If you enjoy today's podcast, besure to subscribe and leave a
review.
You can also find us onInstagram at awakened in
America.
That's awakened underscore inunderscore America and remember
(36:01):
be mindful, be grateful.
And most of all be you.
You're listening to awaken in America
Speaker 2 (00:05):
On a journey to create dialogue about diversity,
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Inclusion and optimism.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome back listeners.
We are here host Jess and hosts.
XE.
Hope everybody's having a greatday.
Today is episode three.
We are discussing anti-racismand what that means, and just to
start off with a thought in anarticle that came to my
attention in the Atlantic aboutthe potential pitfalls with the
(00:45):
momentum behind white,progressive white people that
are good intentioned.
That's what I mean.
When I say white, progressive,there's kind of a whole book
about white fragility that Robinde Angela wrote that I
referenced some times basicallyit means people who are white
that think they're forwardthinking things.
They aren't racist on paper,they aren't, but it is still
(01:08):
worth examining within yourself,implicit bias and acknowledging
systemic racism.
And, you know, that's kind ofwhere I'm going with that when I
speak about white progressives.
But, um, the Atlantic articlethat I read was talking
specifically about books aboutanti-racism that are outright.
Now, there's one by dr.
Abraham X Kendi called how to bean anti-racist.
(01:28):
And I think it's flying off theshelves and as well as white
fragility by Robin D'Angelo thatI mentioned white people are
trying to understand how to bebetter, how to be anti-racist.
And there's a distinction therebecause not being racist, doing
over, you know, a really hatefulthings is different than, um,
actually being an anti-racistrecognizing racism and standing
(01:51):
up for it and trying to makechanges.
But the point in the Atlanticarticle, which I thought was
relevant is there's a lot ofmomentum.
It's become kind of almost atrend for people, white people
to be protesting and buyingbooks and doing the black square
on their Instagram page andthings like that.
And I think by, by no means, amI saying those aren't good
(02:13):
things, but I think it'simportant that white people
don't sort of rely on those andsay, now that I've done those
things, I'm anti-racist, andthat was the point that the
article made too, is it takes alot of, it's a lifelong process.
I think it's a lifelong journeythat we all need to be up for if
(02:34):
we really want to embraceanti-racism and embrace this
idea of wanting to do thingsthat are going to change the
current state.
And how did you, I mean, I knowall of this is relatively new
for you too.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Um, I know that many progressive whites even thinking
about themselves
Speaker 3 (03:00):
In the same category as a racist would be like mind
blowing because, you know, ifyou don't use, like you said,
the N word, or, you know, if youdon't do overtly racist things,
right, then it would make senseto you that, well, I'm not a
racist because I obviously don'tdo overly racist things.
(03:20):
Right.
But it's the not promotingqualified black candidates for
senior level management.
It's the going into a store and,you know, seeing a black person
(03:43):
nearby and pulling your backcloser that even happened to my
husband, um, who was dressed ina business suit when he was a
consultant and he works in itand a white woman pulled her bag
closer to her in an elevator.
So of course he was veryoffended
Speaker 2 (04:03):
That is mind blowing
Speaker 3 (04:06):
And, you know, um,
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And I just want to point out to my white friends,
even if you feel like you're intouch with the African American
community, because you have afriend who's African-American
and you know, you have arelative who's African American
or whatever, they probably haveexperienced racism and not that
(04:36):
long ago.
And you should check in withthem on that because these are
people, you know, I am findingthis myself.
I've always thought like, Oh,you know, I'm sure my friends,
this stuff doesn't happen to myfriends that are different
colors, people of color, becauseyou know, they're successful.
They're great citizens of theworld.
(04:59):
They're, you know, they checkall the boxes.
I'm sure this stuff doesn'thappen to them.
It must happen to other peopleof color that I don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Right.
But there is no distinction.
Like I was saying, there's nodistinction.
You know, when, when, when theysee our Brown skin, that's it
that's the line.
And, and I'm not gonna say thatit's, I'm not going to say that.
I think that whites arepurposefully doing this.
(05:30):
Okay.
I, there are some whites thatare racist and there are some
double pers purposefully dodiscriminatory things.
But I think that much of it iswhat we call implicit bias,
which is basically, you've beenso ingrained and indoctrinated
based on central little child,what you learned about Barbie
(05:52):
dolls or what you learned aboutyour blonde here.
Um, my daughter now loves thatshe's in love with Elsa and
she's like, why is my hair notlike elses?
You know?
Um, it's, it's, it's thisconstant indoctrination that
white is better.
And that Brown is actuallynegative.
(06:13):
It's not that Brown is okay,it's that Brown is actually
negative, right?
So it's like every, you know,there were certain networks that
were actually responsible fordoing this, but you know,
constantly showing, you know, if, if, if a white criminal
committed the same crime, theywouldn't show their face.
(06:33):
But if a black criminalcommitted the same crime, they
would show their face on thenews.
Even if they were 14 or 15, ateenager just to like reinforce
that Oh, black is negative.
Right.
So I think that that constantbrainwashing is what I'm going
to call it.
Cause that's what it is thatconstant brainwashing has made
(06:57):
many white people, just suspectsof black people.
And I give a perfect example ofa black man who was killed
outside of a Starbucks.
Um, I'm trying to remember, Ithink it was in the Midwest,
maybe Wisconsin or Ohio.
I can't remember for sure.
(07:18):
But he was waiting on a bitchthat was outside of a Starbucks
for his brother.
They were meeting up and amanager in the Starbucks.
Now I don't know why this personwould call, like, they're not
busy enough perhaps, but theycalled and this person wasn't
homeless.
They were just a normal blackperson sitting on a bench called
(07:38):
the police about the black mansitting on the bench.
And the police came, the manended up dead as a result.
Young man, I think the man wasonly in his maybe late twenties,
something like that ended updead.
And now we ask ourselves, well,how did that happen?
(07:59):
How did that happen?
Well, because he was black,right?
Because if a white person weresitting on the bench with a
manager have called, right.
So it's these, it's these biasesthat saying lack is negative.
And then, because it's like thissubconscious and brain washing
type of thing, you don't evenrealize that you're doing this
(08:22):
over and over and over and overagain.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
And if somebody is a white person is saying, well, he
shouldn't have been sitting onthe bench or, well, he should
have, you know, defending it,they're missing the point.
The point is he shouldn't havebeen killed.
Right.
And if he were white, hewouldn't have
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Right.
He probably would still bealive.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And there was nothing, you know, actually one
of the things I was listening tothis reminds me of something,
dr.
Kennedy was saying the author ofhow to be an antiracist.
He was about the impact of theGeorge Floyd video.
And he was saying, prior to thatvideo, there might've been
footage or other things, youknow, injustice, criminal sort
(09:07):
of police brutality events, orvideos that people had seen.
But it was easier to say, well,it happened because he did this
or this person of color didthis.
So that's why it happened.
Right.
But the George Floyd video isdifferent because you really
can't find any reason for whythat man lost his life.
(09:33):
Right.
And I think that's why it'staken, hold the way that it has
for white people, you know?
And, um,
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I think it's, I think that what the acknowledgement
of, yes, there, there issystemic racism and yes, we, you
know, we need to do somethingabout, it needs to accompany an
understanding of what the biasdoes to black people, right.
(10:05):
And the fear, yes.
The feet, the, um, the PTSDanxiety stress.
Um, there was just a video theother day, literally I think
yesterday about a black womanwho was taking her daughters to
a nail shop.
They were like, I think 13 yearsand up or 12 years in, uh,
(10:29):
teenagers, four of them, fourgirls, they were made, they were
stopped by the police.
They were in a parking lot.
They were made to get out of thevehicle and all lay face down on
the pavement with guns drawn.
Um, and you know why?
Because they had wronginformation that the car was
(10:52):
stolen.
So it was not that car, the carwas not stolen.
And yet here were 14 agerslength based on the ground were
girls and their mother with gunsdrunk.
So we have to ask ourselves,what kind of, what kind of
longterm affects society do wewant to have for our children?
Do we want a society that'sbuilt on this fear, this, yeah.
(11:17):
This, you know, police aresupposed to be good.
You know, there's supposed to belike the superheroes, but for
the black community, that's,that's obviously not the case.
Um, because too many of us havejust faced racism for doing
nothing, walking down thestreet.
I mean, we have, we haveaccounts now, video accounts of
police brutality on black peoplefor absolutely no reason.
(11:43):
And again, it goes back to thebrainwashing that black people
are not as human.
They're not as worthy of beingtreated with respect.
They, they don't deserve it.
They don't require it feelings.
(12:05):
Aren't important.
You know, it's almost like thatslave mentality.
I hate to say it, but it reallymakes me think about slavery,
how we were like the huddle,here's the price for cattle.
Here's how much that personcosts.
So that mentality has thatbrainwashing has not left our
society because a black life isvalued less than a white life.
(12:31):
Right.
That's what that means.
Otherwise.
How could someone do that toanother human being?
Well, because you value themless, you're like a dog or less
than a dog.
So therefore you can get awaywith mistreating them like this
and, and the, the, the stress ofconstantly being, um, surveyed,
(12:53):
like, you know, it's like onlyyou're thinking about who's
watching us, my husband, youknow, he he's concerned about
what he does when he's in astore because people may be
looking at him like he's goingto steal something.
Absolutely absurd.
Like every day this happens.
I go into department stores, I'min the more expensive section
(13:16):
and I hear it meaning whichmeans they're following me.
I mean, it's, and now I have todeal with that.
Every time I go into the store.
So I know before I get into thestore, then I'm dealing with
that.
And I'm a paying customer.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
And more than that, I think it just is so personal
when they know you.
And I know the person that youare to hear this like real life
example of the racism you dealwith every day, you know, and
you don't have a lot ofopportunities to get to this
point in a friendship or in aconversation with a friend, I
(13:56):
think as a white person, becauseit's so uncomfortable and it's
uncomfortable for you toacknowledge.
And it's uncomfortable for me tohear, but it's so important that
people in America, white peopleparticularly hear it and
understand this is stillhappening.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
It's real.
It's like everyday real
Speaker 2 (14:18):
At our leg.
I said everything like your Syou know, you think of yourself
as successful and educated andall that stuff.
These are people that are yourequivalent, but just because
they're not white, they aredealing with this stuff that a
lot of white people think endedwith civil rights or the
(14:38):
emancipation proclamation.
You know, I mean, this is stillhappening every single day to
the people, you know, and thepeople you love.
And if you're able to have aconversation about it or dial
into that, you will learn a lotfrom making a point to check in
with your friend aboutexperience they've had or how
(14:59):
this whole movement is affectingthem.
And you can grow from thatbecause then it does become
personal.
Then it does feel like it'shappening within your circle.
And you will be moreincentivized to do something
about it because you care aboutthat person.
And there's no avoiding it.
It's not all that.
It's not the people that I knownow it's out there now.
(15:21):
It's acknowledged it is thepeople, you know, and the people
you love and the people you careabout, you know?
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And, um, and like you said, acknowledgement, um, I, I
told you about a couple of whitefriends of mine that, you know,
with the whole black livesmatter, uh, the protesting and
everything that was going on,but I, you know, I didn't even
get a phone call.
I didn't get a text or anythingto say, you know, Hey, how are
you doing?
Or, you know, you know, I knowit's not your family member, but
(15:51):
I'm still sorry that thishappened to a person of color.
Like nobody said that, but you,you said that.
And, you know, and that's why Ifelt comfortable enough to, you
know, share, share and expressmy true feelings with you,
instead of just saying, yeah,you know, we're fine, you know,
(16:13):
just dealing with it or, youknow, whatever the case may be.
Um, I actually took time to talkto you about it because it's
important enough to talk aboutand, and yeah,
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Bringing it up too.
It wasn't like, I didn't feellike it was appropriate to just
be like, Hey, how are you today?
Some really sad headlines,
Speaker 3 (16:34):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Step.
But like, I put it togetherfinally, you know, that this was
deserving of a serious change,you know, and a serious part of
my life that I needed to learnabout and dial into.
And you were kind enough to giveme that opportunity, you know,
(16:55):
but to that end, I think a lotof white people are probably
going what is appropriate, youknow?
And even myself, like I toldyou, I ran into a woman I know
from the kids' school the otherday.
And I hadn't seen her sinceCOVID and all of that, she's
African American.
And I was so excited to see herand we don't know each other,
well, we always beside eachother in passing, but it was
(17:16):
like I was frozen.
I mean, part of it was becausemy kids were freaking out and
wanting to leave, but I couldn'tcollect my thoughts enough to be
like, to express my condolences,my sympathy, my empathy for
what's happening related toblack lives matter, you know?
And I felt guilty about that.
And I was actually really mad,extra mad at my kids for not
(17:36):
giving me space to communicatewhat I wanted to communicate.
Cause I don't know when I'll seeher again, you know what I mean?
The schools are closed andeverything else.
So to that point, what do youthink is appropriate?
You know,
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Um, I think that, like I said, just being honest
in some honestly say, but I justwant to let you know that I
think that this is crazy.
It's insane.
And, um, you know, I'm sorry,I'm, I'm awakening to the fact
that this has been going onunder my nose and I wasn't aware
(18:17):
of it and this is impacting you.
And now, you know, like, I'mjust, I'm sorry, like, I'm
sorry.
I mean, and I'm sorry is veryvaluable.
And just, just to make anotherpoint, I think it's important
for people to consider thelanguage that they're using with
black and Brown people.
(18:38):
If you have a grandchild, abiracial adopted child, um, a
half sibling, whatever the casemay be, you need to do
discontinue the use of focusingon our complexion, on our hair,
texture and focus on ourcharacter.
(19:01):
It's insensitive.
And we don't like questionslike, is that your real hair?
Of course, it's our real here.
It's a test to our head who doesthat?
It's the insensitive thatdehumanizes people.
And you add to the PTSD byconstantly.
(19:24):
Um, you, you're making us notjust aware that we're different,
but you're almost insinuatingthat we're not as good as you
are.
And your, and, and so you'regiving us an inferiority
complex.
When in the back of our minds,we know we're not inferior, but
it's just this constantnitpicking at our confidence and
(19:50):
at our culture and at ourphysical being, it's this
constant nitpicking that reallyis racist and it's, and it's not
the racism that says you're aninward, right?
It's the racism of thebrainwashing.
But you have to, you have tounlearn these things.
(20:13):
You pull it to your friends, youowe it to biracial and
multiracial family members.
You owe it to your society as ahuman to learn these things.
It's not okay to be like, well,I may have said, no, you know
what you said?
And if that person is in yourRolodex, you need to say, I'm
(20:36):
sorry, you need to admit whatyou did so that that person can
have healing and that so thatyou can have a context to move
forward and say, now Iunderstand, now I'm going to do
better brushing it under therug.
Like we've been doing for years.
Like people have been doing foryears.
(20:57):
That is why everything came tothe surface and bubbled over
this because doing that, that'snot working.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of whitepeople and myself included have
felt held back by, you know, Iwill, I don't want to come off
disingenuous by putting up ablack lives matter sign or
saying something to a friend Ihave of color, because I don't
want them to think I'm just likebeing fake or, you know, we've
never talked about anything likethis before.
(21:26):
So was it really random of me toreach out to that?
Would you say, like, forgetabout that.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
I mean, you know, w whatever your feelings are,
those are feelings of guilt, ofshame, of whatever those are
your feelings, right.
That have your feelings.
I think about the other person'sfeelings.
That's what I would say to them.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
That's a really good takeaway.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it can't hurtand it might help, you know, so
we need to be okay with puttingourselves out there more.
And
Speaker 3 (21:59):
The benefit that comes from it, when you do that,
like, you're actually allowing aperson to feel like you see
them.
Right.
And that's, I mean, how powerfulis that?
You know,
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And I think it's actually reminds me of a
conversation we had once whereyou were saying, sometimes you
feel like you have to have aseparate conversation, a
separate kind of a conversationwith a white person versus an
African American person and, ora person of color.
And I feel like that was news tome.
(22:34):
You know, that, that was, again,still a thing that you don't
feel like you can talk about thesame things.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Right.
You know, because, you know, Ithink I was talking about like
how barbecues or, you know, workfunctions, uh, that many, many
white people tend to focus ontheir accomplishments and their
money and things like this.
You know, whereas black people,we feel accomplished.
(23:02):
Um, but because of theoppressive circumstances that we
have faced in this country, wehave learned to identify
ourselves by so much more.
So we don't need to talk aboutour money.
We don't need to talk about whatjobs we have, because we know
that that's not where our worthlives.
(23:25):
If we believed that, then wewould really be screwed.
So you have to believe so muchmore about ourselves because
just because you're not givingus the managerial position
doesn't mean I'm not qualifiedto be a manager.
It means to me the position.
Right.
So we don't need to focus onthose things.
What we focus on is buildingother, up, giving each other
(23:46):
encouragement and, um, yeah.
And keeping our family tiesstrong, what, you know, so
that's, that's, what's importantto us.
And so care we test, you know,um, and part of that self care
is also being able to talk toeach other and be real about the
things that we're facing,because you know, part of it is
(24:09):
just, I mean, I'll be honestwith you is that I was careful,
even in the language that wespoke, you know, in my texts,
because I was like, okay, whitefragility, baby steps.
And I heard about the book, yougot to kind of test the
audience.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't actually have a phrasefor it, but I knew that, Oh, you
(24:32):
gotta be a little bit careful.
And it's kind of like what yousaid, you said, I noticed that I
am kind of like that with mykids.
And I said to you, well, youknow, they're still young.
I said, but yeah, we don't havethat opportunity coddling.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I said, we can't afford to, thisis actually a word for it.
(24:54):
We can't afford to mollycoddleour kids, because we know that
society is going to look at anine year old boy and then
pretend he's a man.
If he does crime as an whitenine year old boy, do you think
that the same thing happens to ablack child that does that as a
white child?
No, let's not.
(25:15):
So we can't afford tomollycoddle our children.
We have to from an early age andit's not, Oh, black people are
so strong that it's because wehave to be for a survival
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And set of skills.
And I remember you saying aboutin that same conversation we had
where I said, I feel like Icaught all my kids sometimes.
And it occurred to me thatthat's a privilege that I'm able
to do that.
Um, and I remember you saying tothat, it's almost like as an
African American mom, you havelike this taking away of their
(25:50):
innocence at an earlier agebecause you have to teach them
things or skills or make themaware of how the world works
right.
For before their whitecounterpart, you know, because
it doesn't affect kids.
(26:12):
So you know, it, it's not a
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Yes.
And then once again, you know,then we had the brainwashing of
white teachers, even, you know,about the potential of black
children, you know, it's like,um, and once again, it's, it's
this whole psychological thingthat is indoctrination and it's
(26:36):
brainwashing.
It's just being, it's like, ifyou showed a picture over and
over and over again, that'snegative.
Right?
And like, like you saw a blackperson, like let's say a cartoon
of a black person stealingsomething and in a white person
doing something constructive, ifyou show them that over and over
and over again, and the timeyou're like, you know, five,
(26:57):
four or five years old, thenyou're gonna start to believe
the picture.
And that's, and I feel likethat's the frame that our
founders kind of created.
And, you know, you know, withthe United daughters of the
Confederates, like with thepublic schooling education and
how they tried to make slaverylook like it was a positive
(27:18):
thing.
Um, and how the, you know, theSouthern Confederates were like
martyrs, um, that, that wholesystemic indoctrination creates
people then.
And that's, that's why you and Iare doing the podcast.
Cause we're like, this can'tcontinue because it's going to
(27:39):
impact our children.
This brainwashing needs to stopsomewhere.
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
So the anti-racist takeaway I would have as, as dr.
Kennedy mentions in his book isI anti-racism is seeing racism
and having a problem with it.
So we white people, you mightconsider yourself not racist,
but that's different than beinganti-racist.
If you want to get behind theanti-racist movement, it's a
(28:06):
shift in thinking and it doesn'tcome by just reading a book,
it's actually having a problemwith it.
And speaking up, making peoplefeel uncomfortable if that's
what it takes.
And I'm sure this is going totake a lot of Finessin and trial
and error probably.
(28:26):
Um, I mean, I feel like I'vedabbled in this before calling
people out for inappropriatethings, but certainly not to the
extent that I plan to now, youknow, moving forward in my life.
But, um, I feel like I'm alittle bit further down, you
know, my journey on this pathand some of my white friends.
So for those starting out, it's,it could be as simple as just
(28:46):
having this conversation withyour friends of color and
opening that dialogue so thatyou can understand the
situations they've been in.
And then when you see ithappening, again,
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Learning some history so that no, you're not, uh, so
that you have some, someunderstanding of why things are
the way they are so that you canempathize with the things that
we are experiencing.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Right.
And I remember when we firststarted this and I said, where
should I start?
And you were like, honestly, Ifeel like you need to read about
the boats that the slaves weretaken to the colonies on and the
conditions.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah.
And you wanted to pick up like,
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's like ready to pick up like dr.
King and like, yeah, like this,you're like, no, you don't
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Get again.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
And yeah.
And read, you know, accounts andpeople, you know, being chained
and having no bathroomdeprecating where they, you
know, in the hole that theywere, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
It's like a black Holocaust.
I mean, I, you know, I'm nottrying to steal that away from
Jewish people, but in a sense ofthat, millions of us died just
on the journey over and continueto die once we got here, um,
it's a Holocaust that's nottalked about in this country.
(30:20):
And, um, and like I said, Ithink that in embracing and
understanding that piece, thenwe can also understand, we have
Hispanic children, uh, ages now,native Americans.
And what happened with themreally progressing when we're
repeating, we're just going in acircle, actually on shine.
(30:44):
They said, it's movement, butit's not progression me going in
a circle.
It's interesting, you know, 50years from now, do we want our
kids to be having these sameconversations, but do we want to
be someplace else?
Right.
Not necessarily Mars, but, youknow, although my kids would
love that.
I think they ask about that alot.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah.
I think it was, um, JamesBaldwin, who said in his book,
something about white people aretrapped in a history.
They don't understand.
And until they understand it,they can't be set free, you
know, something along thoselines.
It wasn't exactly that part, theset free part I made up.
But, um, something like that.
Yeah.
(31:28):
That's, that's the point.
And I think, um, we're at apoint where we can do it and
it's going to be uncomfortableand it's going to require effort
and a shift in mindset and a lotof inner dialogue taking a look
at yourself, you know, andexamining parts of yourself that
(31:48):
you've never really examinedbefore.
Cause you haven't had to, um,
Speaker 3 (31:53):
I understand that I want, you know, the white
progressives as you called them,you know, I want them to also
understand that, you know, thatblacks understand that there are
whites out there who don't agreewith what has gone on.
And, um, and we also understandthat much of this is new for
(32:15):
you.
Okay.
So we do understand that you mayneed to take baby steps, but
what we want you to do is tostill engage us, you know, still
engage us.
And, and don't think that thisproblem is insurmountable.
We've unified to do certainthings, not the masks, but we've
unified to do things.
(32:38):
So we do it again.
We all work together.
It can maybe happen fasterinstead of it taking like, I
don't know, a decade orsomething like let's work
together so that we can makethese changes in a timeframe
that we can actually see theprogress.
Right.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah.
I think that's a great takeaway.
And actually on that note, it'sactually really hard for me
sometimes too, to remember theoptimism part of our podcast,
because this is such a heavytopic.
And, um, I think that's justimportant for people to
understand, you know, who we'relistening to.
Mainly, you know, the fivefriends I have that are kind
(33:21):
enough to do it.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
All of you out there.
No, but seriously, I think weneed to treat this seriously,
this topic, but understand thatthere is there's hope, hope.
Yeah.
And remember that when it feelsinsurmountable and it feels to
have the in to bag to deal with,and you kind of just want to
(33:47):
revert back to, you know, yourwhite, progressive place and not
push yourself.
We have to kind of remember thatthis is a movement and this is
going to be written about in thehistory books.
And this is a chance to makechanges, starting from whatever
point you are, you know, in thejourney, if you are willing and
(34:08):
open to making those changes inyour life.
That's great.
And that's, what's gonna make adifference, you know?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Being on the right side of history so that you can
tell your children, you know,what you did to change things.
I mean, how powerful is that,you know, to be able to express
that to your children and say,you know what, there wasn't
justice and this is what I didabout it.
And having, you know, that's, tome, that's, that's what it's all
(34:40):
about really well guys, it hasbeen great speaking with you
today about anti-racism and whatit means, what it means to us.
We hope that it has beenempowering and enlightening for
you.
It was a very heavy topic.
It was a heavy topic for us todiscuss amongst ourselves.
(35:03):
And we appreciate you listening,and we appreciate you passing on
this information.
It is so vital to pass thisinformation along and not just
keep it to yourselves.
So
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, don't get in your own way.
Don't overthink.
It.
Don't feel like you're, um,disingenuous or not able to have
these conversations amonganybody white, other white
friends, people of color, youknow, feel like you can, uh, you
can make a difference just bysocializing it.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Yes.
Just take first step.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Thanks everyone.
Thank you for listening toawakened and America.
If you enjoy today's podcast, besure to subscribe and leave a
review.
You can also find us onInstagram at awakened in
America.
That's awakened underscore inunderscore America and remember
(36:01):
be mindful, be grateful.
And most of all be you.
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