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The Silverbacks, Nick Brunancini, Terry Garrison, Pat Dale, and John Vance discuss the anatomy and physiology of leadership, focusing on how effective fire service leaders balance priorities and build trust through active listening.

• Addressing the viral social media post about uniforms that received over 200,000 views
• Exploring Bruno's hierarchy of leadership engagement where service delivery takes priority over trivial matters
• Discussing the Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference in Ohio featuring Silverback leadership class
• Examining active listening as a critical leadership skill that builds organizational trust
• Sharing real-world examples of how listening and taking action resolved issues like unsafe apparatus
• Contrasting leaders who focus on service delivery versus those who micromanage uniform policies
• Exploring how accessibility and where leaders physically spend their time impacts trust
• Emphasizing the importance of simplicity in procedures and communication
• Highlighting that the primary focus of fire service leadership should always be the work and service delivery

Check out Timeless Tactical Truths at the B Shifter store for $10—makes a great Christmas stocking stuffer!

This episode was recorded in Phoenix, AZ on September 9, 2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:10):
and welcome to the B Shifter podcast.
Got John Vance here, nickBrunicini, terry Garrison and
Pat Dale hanging out with youtoday want to tell you today
we're going to talk a little bitabout the anatomy and
physiology of leadership and howthat really equates on the
different body parts.
So we'll get to that in asecond.
I do want to talk just a littlebit.

(00:31):
We'll see if we cut this or not, but we made a Facebook post
last week and it was just a clipfrom the last podcast.
We did, and you, I think in aparable type of way, terry, talk
about uniforms and the thinghas got like over 200,000 views

(00:51):
so far.
We've never done anything.
You know we talk about lifesafety.
We talk about, you know, veryimportant command and leadership
issues and then you know thetriviality of this is we're
talking about uniforms andthat's what got everybody kind
of up in arms, partially, Iguess, but it goes to show.

(01:14):
I mean I don't have anythingelse to say, but watch the
entire episode if you reallywant to know what we're talking
about Like it was something assimple as their uniform.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Well, they can't wear that uniform and they can't do
this, but it got around uniforms.
Like you know, you trust thisfire captain to make a decision
when the smoke's pouring out,whether to duck down and to go
in and attack a fire With thesepeople's lives.
You trust them for that, butyou can't trust them to make a

(01:42):
decision in what uniform, whatcolor socks to wear.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
It's bullshit right when they go with baseball hats
and fire station.
Yeah, all that.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
It's silliness, it's micromanagement yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
The fact that it's such low-lying fruit and so many
people get upset about it iskind of funny to us, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Well, it's interesting that you know
everybody has an opinion aboutthat right.
So when it gets to commandprocedures, a lot of that is
like math.
It should line up in a specificway Like a math problem there's
a right and a whole lot ofwrongs, but there's only one
right way to do it.
But when it comes to leadership, you start it's more like

(02:20):
social studies and there's not alot of science to leadership,
there's a lot of social toleadership and everybody has an
opinion about that and itcertainly played out in that
little I don't even know howmany seconds that was and we
don't- 23 seconds and we don'tput these together to get likes

(02:40):
or dislikes or nothing.
No, we don't care about that atall, but it's good that we can
create some sort of dialogueregarding a fire department
subject that people care about.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
And I think the point was is leaders that focus so
much on these trivial littlethings.
And we see examples.
I was at FRI last month andheard several examples of
leaders who nitpick and reallystart micromanaging things.
Instead of looking at the bigpicture and keeping strategic
and planning ahead for theirdepartment, they get involved in

(03:13):
how wide the stripe is on theirapparatus or you know,
redesigning patches and badgesand all of that window dressing
stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
No, and we never said that uniforms aren't important.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
No, we didn't.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
It's just like if you had and we talk about that, pat
and I are going to talk aboutthat in Ohio but if you look at
the hierarchy Bruno's hierarchyof leadership, engagement it's
actually a scale and what's mostcritical and what a leader
should focus on, and then at thebottom what a leader shouldn't
spend a, and then at the bottomwhat a leader shouldn't spend a
lot of time focusing on, andthat's uniforms.

(03:48):
I mean everybody should be inthe same uniform, we should all
look alike, we play for the sameteam.
But it didn't require a lot ofleadership and creativity, a
little bit of management on thefront end, and then, hopefully,
a leader will leave that area,spend a little time there and
then move up the hierarchy andstart focusing on the delivery

(04:10):
of service and how we deliverthat service.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well said, and that's really what the key to that all
was.
I thought we should acknowledgeit because it's so funny.
Might have brought us some newlisteners, at least for a few
seconds, and then they probablyleft.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Might have brought us some new listeners at least for
a few seconds, and then theyprobably left.
Come back, even if you listenand hate us, you're still
listening and maybe you'll learnfrom it, and maybe we'll learn
from you, hey let's talk aboutOhio.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
What are you guys going to be doing in Ohio next
month?
We are there at the Blue CardHazard Zone Conference.
October 2nd and 3rd,Sharonville, Ohio, You're doing
a Silverback leadership class.
What are we going to be talkingabout?

Speaker 4 (04:49):
Yeah, we're going to be talking about Bruno's
hierarchy of leadershipengagement and it's going to
include a few areas likebuilding trust and we'll talk
through what that means and leadthat out with some questions
like why is trust important andengage in conversation around
that.
And another question aroundtrust what are the

(05:11):
characteristics of trust,conversation and some back and
forth about that.
And can you build or rebuildtrust as a leader in an
organization?
We'll talk about the scale ofdifficulty that Terry just
mentioned and kind of go overthat a little deeper.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
No, it would be nice, honestly, to have a room of
people wanting to talk aboutleadership and then some of them
saying you know, I didn'texactly agree with you on that
whole uniform deal.
Let me listen to what you gotto say about it.
And then, you know, in groupsettings there's not a lot of
back and forth, but hopefullywe'll get some interaction with

(05:53):
the audience.
So we're hoping people show upand you know you don't have to
agree with everything we say.
I think that's part ofleadership, right is looking at
people that disagree with youand trying to be respectful and
say, okay, I see where you'recoming from.
I think you're an idiot, but no, I'm just kidding, but I see
where you're coming from andlet's talk about that as we move
forward.
But we're excited about it.

(06:14):
And if I was sitting out thereand I was like, oh, these guys
are going to talk about trustand leadership, you might think,
no, we're going to have funwith it.
You might think, no, we'regoing to have fun with it.
We're going to share a lot ofthe Brunicini's leadership style
and how he got to where he wasin the world of fire service,
and his was really built ontrust, and the trust was that I

(06:40):
trust you, as firefighters, togo out there and serve the
customers, and that's reallywhat he did.
He said I trust you to servethe go out there and serve the
customers, and that's reallywhat he did.
He said I trust you to servethe customers the best you can,
and here's all the skills andthe tools and the training
necessary.
Now go out and do it, and Itrust you to do a good job and
understand that that's the mostimportant thing we do.
So we'll talk a lot about that.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
One of the things we're referencing, so we want to
see everybody in Sharonville.
We're looking forward to that.
Yes, the links are all here, sohit the link.
We are, as of today, 19 daysaway from the pre-conferences
kicking off.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
I get to get a ticket .

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, get your ticket , man you better show up.
You've been advertised.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
You're on the bill.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
So, yeah, get your ticket and see you in Cincinnati
, charingville, ohio, for theBlue Card Hazard Zone Conference
Talking about the anatomy andphysiology of leadership.
That's a book that was put outa few years back.
Alan and Nick wrote it and itreally breaks down.
For those of you who haven'tmaybe read it, it's available.

(07:45):
We put it out out in the buckslip this week, so it's $15.
Great book.
I loved it because there's somegreat examples.
Alan just kind of talks aboutthe body parts and then Nick
throws in some real-worldexamples of how it relates, but
he talks about starting at thehead, listening.
So why is listening and activelistening an important part of

(08:09):
leadership?

Speaker 4 (08:10):
I'll jump on that one because I just wrote an article
about it, this A&P from thechief and Nick.
As I came down to ears, it mademe think about the importance
of listening and so I wrote anarticle recently about it.
But the active listening andcritical listening, a couple
aspects that the chief talksabout in his book and Nick, and

(08:32):
one example of criticallistening I use in this article.
The one example I dropped fromis in the relationship with
labor and management, and abrief story is when I came into
a couple of departments from theoutside as the fire chief, one
of the things I did was, ofcourse, ask the union leadership

(08:52):
how it's going and I said howoften do you meet with labor
management?
The union president says, well,we're supposed to meet monthly,
but really we only meet when weneed to argue about something.
That's what he tells me.
Really, we only meet when weneed to argue about something.
That's what he tells me.
So I said, well, how about we?
We, instead of that, we'll meetweekly and we'll do it at a
coffee shop away from thedepartment, neutral ground, and

(09:13):
my whole intent was just tolisten.
So the the deputy chief andthose of us that were sitting on
the management side before themeeting, I said let's go in here
and it's in here and they'regoing to have a lot of
grievances they want to air outand they're angry right now,
frankly, and are let's justlisten, this critically listen

(09:34):
and not interrupt.
And some of the things mightsound hurtful and you'll want to
be defensive, but our goal isto listen and the whole goal was
really just to start buildingtrust with the labor group.
So critical listening meantwell, for one thing, listening
more than talking, I say at thestart of this article, sometimes

(09:54):
the best way to lead is to shutup and listen, and that's what
I attempted to do with the labormanagement.
We continued to meet weekly forfive years and that was a big
part, and building trust waslistening and practicing that.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
So what was the biggest thing you heard early on
, when you first got there, andthen, because you started to
build trust because you werelistening, did that change
throughout?
Did you see themes change?
Trust because you werelistening Did that change
throughout?
Did you see themes change?
So how was it on the front end?
Because I went in at oneorganization and said I'm here
to listen.
They're like, hey, yeah right.
You know, you get that.

(10:32):
And it takes a while to startthe dialogue and go back and
forth, so sometimes you got tosay some things to get somebody
to open up a little bit.
But what were you hearing earlyon in your conversation?

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Yeah, it was clearly this us versus them.
I mean it was palpable comingin really quickly.
It was the floor versus theregime was the word.
Oh, wow I mean, that's apowerful word that they're using
right, just right out of thebat, and it was really rooted in
distrust.
You look in the organizationand you know where to look.
I knew where to look and how tocome up to speed quickly and

(11:06):
there was just distrusteverywhere and that was over
years of just not feeling.
You know, they didn't feelvalued, they didn't feel
important to what was going onin the department, they didn't
feel heard and that's powerful.
And the opposite of buildingtrust in an organization is that

(11:26):
distrust, once it gets going,is like a cancer.
It's just everywhere I looked.
That was a theme, not distrustand us versus them.
You know, it makes me think ofone thing I heard and you're
listening for themes, terry,you're exactly right was they
talked about this tender?
Okay, it's a tank or someplaces call it the big water

(11:48):
carrying truck, this tender, andI heard it in several of these
small groups they bring it upabout this tender.
That was old and they felt likethe brakes weren't safe.
The brakes didn't work, theemergency lights intermittently
worked, the radio didn't workand I just listened to that.
And finally, after one meeting,I went to the BC and I said is
that true about the tender andhe says, yeah, it's been that

(12:10):
way.
I said, of course, haseverybody written it up and
followed the process?
Yeah, we stopped writing it upbecause nobody did anything.
So I had the tender immediatelytaken out of service, get it to
the mechanic shop and gothrough it.
Of course I went and looked atthe thing myself and frankly, it
was a jalopy.
I couldn't believe it was stillin service and just that act of

(12:33):
listening and then the actionthat goes with the listening is
just as important as listening.
Of course that wasn't about thetender, it was really about
listening to people.
And that's when I had a chancewith the chief officers that had
been there not listening, andthey felt like, well, it'll

(12:55):
affect our I heard this honestlyit'll affect our ISO rating
because it's the only one wehave, and so we had to have a
long talk about that.
We can never, never is thatrating and what it does
financially more important thanour members' safety.
So it just became white noiseto the admin staff is what I

(13:17):
found.
Listening became white noise.
They heard it so often.
The membership stopped writingit up because they didn't get
any action and the admin youknow the chief officer's
leadership.
Just it became white noise.
So that was a theme when youtalk about themes that you
listen for.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
How do you balance approachability to be a good
listener and decisiveness andand tempering yourself as a
leader to?
You know, people don't alwaysneed action or one action, they
just want to be heard.
So how, how do you, how do younavigate all that?

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, I don't think it's.
You know it's funny, causethat's that you just talked
about marriage, right, thegenders kind of talk differently
and and women talk to sharefeelings, and men at least what
I've been told by my wife andmen want to solve problems.
I didn't ask you to solve myproblem, I'm just sharing with
you how I feel about this.

(14:18):
And now you're trying to getengaged.
That's what my wife says to me.
I said sorry, I thought youwere asking me to get involved.
No, I'm asking you to listen,right.
So I think that's what happensis you've got to look, and
that's why a leader has to havetheir values aligned right.
So Nick would always talk aboutBruno's values, and then I took

(14:40):
it out in the same thing Besafe, be nice, be accountable,
those are the values,organizational values.
So if I heard something in aconversation that impacted
firefighter safety or customerservice, I go okay, time out,
let's see what this issue is andwe need to resolve this before
we go forward.
You just told me this Now Ican't.

(15:01):
The brakes aren't working, thelights aren't working, it's time
out.
As a leader, I can't.
The brakes aren't working, thelights aren't working.
Time out, we're going to.
As a leader.
I need to do something aboutthat.
I can't have another 30conversations about brakes not
working.
I'm going to engage right now.
So you got to know when to kindof step forward and say and you
kind of learn that a little bit,right as you learn that, okay,

(15:24):
that person is just kind ofsharing a little bit and they're
not really asking for it.
And I think a good thing to dowhen in doubt is say what would
you like me to do about it?
Seriously, well, chief, I wantyou to.
Okay, well, I'm not going to dothat, but I will do this.
Or, yeah, you know what I cando, that I can get involved and

(15:45):
do that for you.
Because if we say servantleadership and I'm working for
you, not in a socialistic sortof way but in a
customer-centered,firefighter-focused kind of way,
if I'm working for you, then Ican say what can I do for you?
And having a leader asksomebody they're sitting across

(16:07):
from, what can I do for you on?
This is a really good phrase touse.
And you may be surprised whatthey tell you and you say, yeah,
I can do that, or you know Ican't do that, and here's why I
can't.
Yeah, I like do that, or youknow I can't do that, and here's
why I can't.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Any of that makes sense, yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
You know the question .
I like that and you bring up agreat question that, as I
listened, I wasn't going toreact immediately.
But you're looking for themesand across, you know, 150 people
is a department that I was inthat size of a department Try to
listen to everybody as much asI possibly could in small groups
and themes emerge prettyquickly actually and those are

(16:47):
what you want to try to.
You know, bringing in yourintuition and experience and
instinct, those things that aremission critical.
There's some that rise to thetop in themes and you're going
to definitely take action,Honestly, Nick.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
so what is?
You've been very quiet.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
I know, that's alarming.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm worried.

Speaker 4 (17:11):
We're putting him to sleep.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
I love Nick's perspective.
I'm not putting you on the spot, but I'm going to ask you what
is active listening when youhear that?
Because that's a phrase thatpeople throw out there, right.

Speaker 4 (17:23):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
So active listening?
I always thought, well, if I'man active listener, does that
require action?
Does it require I got to lookand be alive and conscious, or
does it require me to take?
What does active listening meanto you If you had bosses that?
What does active listening meanto you?

Speaker 3 (17:41):
You had bosses that— See, the problem with it is it's
too simplistic.
So listen.
I've heard Gordon Graham once.
He was talking about whoeverthe greatest current author was
in leadership, and the guy wrotea book about listening.
And Gordon Graham said well,like every other page, he says

(18:02):
you got to listen.
And he's okay, I get it, I gotto listen.
What do you do then?
Well, I think active listeningis you first of all.
The role of the leadership ofthe fire department is making
sure they can run the next call.
That is your job as the chiefis.

(18:25):
If you want to boil it down,it's like the most important
call for the fire chief is thevery next one, not the current
one, but the next one, causethat's what.
And so that's what.
All your active listening.
So, to use an example likepatch tanker, and so that's what
, all your active listening.
So to use an example like patchtanker and like everybody's
pissed off because this tankerstays in service and it

(18:46):
shouldn't.
Well, the iso guy.
So you've listened.
You're like, okay, you don'twant it in service because it's
a hazard and it doesn't work.
Well, if the tanker doesn'twork, and so that's what you
would look at is the history ofthe thing it does.
Does it even flow water?
Does it haul water?
They're like, no, it doesn't doanything a tanker's supposed to

(19:07):
do.
Well then, if we really needthis for the ISO rating, what I
need to do is I need to go to mybosses and say we need a new
tanker and the tanker's going tocost X amount, but what it's
going to do is it's going tosave X amount on everybody's
insurance that pays into this.
So that's why we have to dothis.

(19:27):
So then it becomes the firechief's job to collect all this
information, which is the wayyou do that is by active
listening, and that's part of it.
That's the people that use it.
Well, the reality is whatcondition is a tanker in?
Does it do its intended purpose?
Well, no, it doesn't.
And so now what it's done isthe tanker has become an issue

(19:47):
over some chief who says no, I'min charge and you're going to
use the tanker because I said so.
It's got nothing to do with theISO rating.
The guy's just sticking thetanker up everybody's ass
because he can.
Well, now a boss comes in thathears it all and you're like the
mother.
Like you said, it's okay, I'veunderstand the what's going on
here is you were subjugating theworkforce with the tanker.

(20:09):
That that's the no more.
So that's your issue.
It ain't the tanker, it's thechief who uses the tanker to
whip everybody.
Because I can't so like you'rethe.
You went viral because it'slike well, no, I got some idiot
who his whole only deal is theuniform.
And so if they listen to thepodcast, that moron, mr Uniform

(20:32):
Police, what he's reallydangerous at is showing up and
managing a hazard zone, becausethey don't understand that,
because that's beneath them.
So we talked about this beforethe podcast started.
We worked for what was reallythe greatest fire department in
the history of fire departmentsduring that phase.
That's where we were there.
So we rode this ride.

(20:55):
As soon as that was over, youknow what they started doing.
They started redesigning theuniform, the Class A uniform.
They look like a bunch ofstagecoach drivers from the
goddamn 1800s.
Now it is pathetic.
That is like the symbol in mymind, for what happened is the
old uniform and the new one, andyou're like, yeah, there, you

(21:17):
go Over here.
This is what we listenedcritically.
We did this.
It was service delivery.
Everybody kind of flourished inthat system because it was all
designed around the next call.
It wasn't designed about.
I'm in charge and you're goingto do what I said because I'm in
charge.
Now, that's not why we exist asa fire department.

(21:38):
We exist to deliver service topeople.
Now you should wear a uniformthat looks good.
We're not saying you shoulddress like a bum and not shave
and just not care.
No, no, no, no, no.
If you're wearing white sockswith your uniform, who gives a
shit?
You're wearing socks.
So I guess that's what activelistening is is the ability to

(22:03):
reconnect it into the mission ofthe fire department.
And now see, the old man used tosay this.
He says the difference isprocedures.
Don't have feelings.
Firefighters do.
So you've got to manage systemsand then you have to deal with

(22:23):
the emotions of the humans thatoperate within those systems and
understand everybody's a littlebit different.
So that's where the diversityof the department comes in, in
the workforce.
See, and that's why I go to thework is because we're here to
go on calls and deliver service.
If you can't do that, you don'tbelong here.
That's what we're doing.
Yeah, if you don't understandhow to be a neurosurgeon, you

(22:48):
shouldn't be one.
Yeah please, yeah, you should dosomething different.
Well, if you're a firefighter,this is what you do during the
day, and that's pretty tough man, to deliver service to the
community all day long.
We don't qualify.
You call 911, and if you cansay the right words, you're
going to get a response andwe're going to go out and do

(23:09):
what we can for you.
So I mean, I think that's wherethat starts.
So in Pat's deal, it's thetanker.
No, the tanker's got to be ableto haul this much water.
No, the tanker's got to be ableto haul this much water.
And if it can't, well, maybe weneed to go to ISO and see what
happens if we get rid of thistanker, because we put in
hydrants.
Now, as we're suburban, wedon't need that maybe.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
And let's be honest about our response capability.

Speaker 4 (23:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Yeah.
So here's, and now take thiswhole communication piece.
It seems really simple.
Now you're the leader of a firedepartment.
Doesn't matter if it's 185people, like I had, or 4,000
people, like I had.
The key to being the leader ofthat and active listening is how
do you get communication fromthe people doing the work to the

(23:56):
people making the decisions?
Because it goes through a lotof layers and I would say that
you know the communication flowchart is also the organizational
flow chart.
So firefighters talk tocaptains, captains talk to
district or battalion chiefs.
They would talk to your deputychiefs, assistant chiefs.
And if you don't understand thatas a fire chief and create some

(24:18):
sort of system which Bruno wasgreat at I think that's what he
excelled at better than anythingyou got to create a system to
where you're getting informationfrom the people doing the work
up to the fire chief, because ifanybody along the way is
stalling that, with informationgoing up that affects
firefighter safety or customerservice or information going

(24:39):
down that affects those twoareas, and you got a break in
the system, you got a bigproblem.
So now how do you create asystem that manages that the way
Bruno did?
That is because he took thetime and it was not easy and it
took a lot of time, but helistened a lot, right?
So you're talking about the oneon one listening with the union

(25:00):
president.
When you first get there, whichis absolutely important, you've
got to listen all the way upfrom the bottom of the organ I
say the bottom of it, but wherethe service is being done all
the way to the bottom.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
The foundation of it.
Yeah, that's what it is.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
So when I would find out things as a fire chief and I
go really, when did that happen?
Well, chief, it happened likethree weeks ago.
Well, who knew about it?
And did you know about anassistant chief?
No, no, I didn't know about it.
Did your guy that you workedfor?
Would you find out if he knewabout it?
He did, he didn't pass it up.
Okay, would you talk to him andtell him that?

(25:36):
That's pretty critical.
So there takes a lot ofcoaching about how communication
gets moved up through theorganization.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Well, I think the other part is it's kind of the
baseline where you have to startis like when the fire chief
actually knows what goes intodeliverance service and that
becomes the driving thing forthem.
See, because, like I talkedabout it, the old fire chief
left and the new fire chief likedidn't give a shit about that.

(26:04):
It's like that is not my job,that is a task level thing.
Deal with some a battalionchief on it, not me, let me jump
in because you said we're onceagain, we're a married couple.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
That's why, when they say he's a fire, don't hit me
with anything, please.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, okay, he's a firefighter, That'll get some
bucks Swing swing.
There better be a date.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
So when they say, oh, we like him, he's a firefighter
, fire chief or he's afirefighter, you know, that's
because a fire chief thatdoesn't understand the job that
is being performed byfirefighters.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Care.
I think they understand.
They just don't care.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
It's beneath them If they lose their way and their
priority isn't the work that'sbeing done.
If they turn their chairs andthey're facing the city council
and that's their biggest deal ofthe day, which they have to
listen to the city council anddeal with politicians and HR
directors and all that.
But when they talk, you got tothink about OK, how is what

(27:06):
they're saying affect what mypeople are doing?
I say my people.
That sounds weird, but thefirefighters are doing how?
And bring them back to that.
It's like OK, thank you, mrFinance Director, but here's how
that impacts my firefighters.
When you do this and this, thiscauses this for Mrs Smith and
the firefighters' fire chiefsare the ones I mean.

(27:28):
That's the greatest complimentyou could ever have is a fire
chief.
He's a firefighter's fire chiefand that's what I hoped, that I
was trying to be most of mycareer and I'm sure I was in all
time but being a guy whounderstood the operations work
and then, like Nick always says,focusing on the operations work
and then adjusting everythingin the organization to where you

(27:50):
support those guys.
That's so true, right you?

Speaker 4 (27:52):
know that's so true and it makes me think I used to
say when I was a fire chief, I'man ops chief in drag Shit.
I was still really interested.
You got the legs for it, yeah,thanks.
Now I didn't.
I was deliberate.
I was an ops chief for like 17years in a previous department
so I I was careful not to getinto the the shit of the ops

(28:13):
chief in the department but.
I was very interested in what wewere doing and delivering a
service the op go figure.
I was interested in what wewere doing in delivering our
service Go figure I wasinterested in the operations of
the fire department.
Yeah, and Nick said about caring.
You know I put some thoughtinto the active listening part
when the chief and Nick wroteabout it in this article I was

(28:34):
mentioning, and you know I thinkthere's a lot of consultants
and executive coaches that talkabout active listening and it
becomes a gesture.
They tell you to paraphrasewhat you're hearing and how to
sit and how to look.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Did you say paraphrase yeah, oh, thank you.
Yeah, how did I do?

Speaker 4 (28:57):
And I mean those are gestures.
Yeah, I do, and I mean thoseare gestures.
And you know firefighters andyou're sitting around a table.
They sniff that fake poser shitout in a nanosecond, don't they
?

Speaker 3 (29:08):
But yeah, but a good fire chief does too.
They have even more of a skillto do that.
So, and what they're saying?
You watch them.
It's like you'll be conversingwith a diverse group of people,
so you'll have like unionofficials.
You have older officers, oldercommand people, younger
firefighters and there'ssomething going on in all those

(29:29):
meetings and somebody's alwaystrying to juice the system and
get what they want out of it.
So it becomes incumbent, likeif you're an operational person.
I think the reason you guyscould go to different systems
from the departments that yougrew up in are because you
understand the basic mission ofthe fire department, and so that

(29:49):
becomes the common language ofeverybody, especially when the
chief—no, no, no, this is whatwe're going to speak.
We're going to speak servicedelivery and deployment
capability and our ability tomanage and, yada, yada, keep you
guys safe and all of that.
So now you can kind of I don'tknow if lead the discussion, but
you can manage them in a waywhere you can kind of sift out

(30:11):
the political stuff people aretrying to do and then see and it
makes it easier to do, like ifall of our politics and I'm not
talking about elected officials,I'm talking about the way we
view and what we want to get asemployees of the organization.
Well, see, the thing that wewere good at when we had the

(30:32):
leadership was everybody couldsay, okay, we want this, this
and this.
And then, when you context thataround service delivery, that
created a system where, like 25years later, when they looked at
it, like the authority havingjurisdiction said we're not
responsible for this, we didn'tgive you all this as you stole
it.
And you're like no, this wasall negotiated in the thing.

(30:53):
Well, how did it get where youguys are?
So, and like they said aboutthe fire chief, they said, just,
he'll be gone in a couple ofyears, just leave.
You can't outperform him, sojust give him what he wants.
He doesn't ask, he's notfilling up his gas tank, he's
driving the fire department forservice delivery.
So it puts you in a positionwhere you can defend yourself.

(31:16):
So and I think that's what hewas good at was figuring out
here's what we do to deliverservice and improving that.
And see, the leadership partwas getting everybody to go
along with it.
Well, the union wanted itbecause they saw no, they do
this.
This is like being MarilynMonroe's pimp.
Now I don't have much that Ihave to do because it's all in

(31:38):
place.
As we all worked very hard anddid a lot of personal stuff and
sacrifice to get the system here, and now we can manage it in a
way where and they used to saythis everybody goes home in a
limousine the firefighters, thecustomer, the city, all of us.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
So you know, we were blessed, were blessed.
Yeah, I got to meet with Brunowhen I was worked for him and
then when I worked for otherdepartments.
Every conversation I had withBruno, every one, it absolutely
revolved around the work.
Think about that.
I mean great guy?

Speaker 3 (32:16):
The worker's safety somehow Great guy?
Well, look at the NFPAstandards that were passed.
It all had to do with the workor the safety.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
It was all about the work.
Even when we'd go to breakfastand we sat there for two hours,
it was about the work.
When we went to lunch, it wasabout the work.
When you talked to him in a cardriving somewhere, that was his
primary focus and he kept itgoing.
That's amazing so if he did thatwith me, he did it with council
members, mayors, police chiefsthat he had to interact with

(32:43):
other agencies and you know noteverybody—I wasn't that so
directed.
You know, I wandered sometimestoo, but if you can try to keep
the conversation focused on thework and how you do the work
safer and better, the patientoutcome increases and the
customer support increases andeverything grows exponentially

(33:06):
right.
That's what happened in Phoenix.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
It's a genuine interest in that's the active
listening.
It's a genuine interest andcuriosity on how they're doing
and what they need, and thatcomes through just as opposite
as the BS gesturing.
That.
I think it kind of turned intothis active listening and that's
just.
It's as simple as you give ashit, yeah, and you show that.

Speaker 3 (33:30):
Well, look at it.
Kurt Vonnegut said the mostglaring example of man's
humanity towards man is a fireengine.
So that's what we got.
That's our root of our service,that we do.
It's people today, in thepolarized world we live in.
Evidently, france's governmentjust collapsed, who knows what

(33:53):
that means, but all the bullshitgoing on and still it's like no
, they're here to help us.
So that's what we represent andI think it may be fire
departments that savecivilization.
Who knows?
But Benjamin Franklin saw itearly on 1726, he made the first
municipal fire department.

(34:14):
That was ahead of the postoffice, the army, everything
else.
That became like one of thecore, foundational elements of
local government is the firedepartment.
So if you can represent thatand you can make that actual,
executed system where, like,everybody is working towards the

(34:38):
work, you'll flourish.
Always, people recognize this isfor our own good.
I think that you see propertytaxes being assaulted across the
United States of America.
Well, people don't want to paytaxes.
A variety of things.
The problem is is most firedepartments are funded through
some kind of property tax.
Well, most people don'tunderstand that.

(35:00):
Well, when you tell them, no,this is what it's going to do
for you, get rid of it andyou're on your own period.
When you call 911, it doesn'twork anymore.
It's not 911.
Well, that's going to have aneffect for you.
So that's, I think, when westand behind what we do as the

(35:21):
work, you're not going to lose.
We redid the political systemin this city based on that 40
years ago, whatever the hell itwas.
We're getting older, so itseems like it was 15 minutes.
It was actually like fourdecades, but it the hell it was.
We're getting older, so youknow, it seems like it was 15
minutes.
It was actually yeah like fourdecades, but it is what it is
and that hasn't changed.
I think people still feel thatway.

(35:42):
So Brunicini.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Along with talking about the work individually,
that's what he didorganizationally.
So, when we would come togetherin our meetings, and we got to
do that at the command trainingcenter early on.
That's why it was so successfulis because he made that.
That's a work that you're onlygoing to talk about the incident
.

Speaker 3 (36:03):
Well, as everybody had a voice then in strategic
and tactical operations.
That nobody did before and itwas just well, we don't know
what the chief's doing.
Well, when you got them all ina room together and see and that
was the thing that was drivingit and that's what was
challenging other groups thatwere seeking power is that we

(36:24):
had between 80 and 85%attendance for what was a
voluntary training program.
It wasn't like EMS or hazmatwhere you had to attend and
people were looking at that.
Well, that's about the timesome people from the labor side
started coming About a year anda half.
They're like why is everybodycoming to this and all the
things they're talking aboutthere?
We don't know what it is, andthey didn't check with us and

(36:46):
they would come in and say, well, you ain't got our permission.
Like, well, I don't think wehave to in this, and early on.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
You know, throughout the whole time we did that is,
you would have somebody fromanother division which they got
their own job and it's good forthem, but they would say, hey, I
need 15 minutes of your commandtraining center to cover this
HR.
Nope, do that alone First of all, is it training or is it

(37:13):
sharing information?
Because that's two differentthings.
Right, how many training groupsget together and have a
training session and focus onsomething that they're just
giving you information?
Do that through an email,through whatever, but training
should be training, right.
And so early on they wantedthat.

(37:33):
The fire chief said we wouldtell them they were above us in
the organization as far as rankand we would say nope.
We're going to tell the firechief and they would walk out.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
You would have killed your voluntary attendance and
they would come back.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
And it's like ugh and you can see they're thinking to
themselves.
Oh so a bunch of deputy chiefsnow outrank me in assistant
chief.
They're like, no, but they'llkill you.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Why do you?

Speaker 3 (38:01):
want to get in a boat with them anyway.
They're insane.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
They just wanted 15 minutes of our training time.
It's like, no, we can't spare15 minutes.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
No, we don't.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
We don't have.

Speaker 4 (38:11):
Buzz kill right there , yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
We don't dislike you, we just we're not going to give
you our time, right.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Well, we did the same thing with the training
committee.
The training committee says, no, you have to get our permission
to deal with it.
No, we don't.
You're here to support us, weno longer need your support,
we're off and running.
So it was so all that islistening.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yeah, one body part that we talked about Right.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
The ears listening.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
I want to ask one more thing about listening,
especially when it comes toBruno, because he had a lot of
trust within the organization.
So, building trust throughlistening, how much does that
really have to do withaccessibility you know, having
access to that leader, that thatleader you know actually being

(38:57):
present, like, how does thatwork, and how that work with him
?
Because for for I mean, in myoutsider's view, for somebody
who's a big city fire chief, hewas very accessible, but you
can't go with every idea thatsomebody brings to your door
either, right?
So how do you balance all ofthat.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
No, I saw him tell a lot of people no, that's.
You know, there's a lot of goodideas.
That's not one of them.
We're not doing that.
You know you would hear thatevery once in a while.
But he has scheduled meetingswhere he would.
He would talk to chief officers.
He talked to fire captains.
He even had sessions where hetalked to firefighters.
People would take a day off andmiss a captain's meeting and

(39:47):
come in on their next day offbecause they were out of town on
B shifts.
So they would come in when theyreturned on C shift and go to
one of Bruno's captain'smeetings, because they didn't
want to miss the communicationthat was taking place.
And that's because they knewthey were going to get beat up.
And you know you ever work forsomebody.
You think they don't like you.
Well, bruno, he felt like heliked everybody.
I'm sure he didn't.
You probably know more about it.
You got to hear some of it.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
Well, I'm still alive .
So I mean, he was a verypatient man.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
So, but every one of these sessions everybody was
treated pretty respectful.
I mean, there was a time I'lltell you and we've said this
story before there was a guy inthere who was kind of a
knuckleheaded fire captain whopromoted through the process he
wasn't discriminated against buthe became a fire captain and he
was in a session and he waskind of known for being mouthy

(40:33):
and not a rule follower and inone of the sessions he smarted
out to Bruno like one or twotimes and finally Bruno said hey
, you know, you and I have onething in common.
What's that?
We're both at the highest rank.
We're going to go in thisorganization.
Now can you say that today?

Speaker 2 (40:52):
No, because they're going to see oh, why not, come
on?
They're going to say that today.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
No, because they're going to see oh, why not Come on
?
They're going to say that guysaid that, but it was beautiful,
so he knew when to callbullshit on it.
But you said the key word isaccessibility.
So one of the body parts thatwe talk about is your feet, and
for me, the main part of thefeet is where do you, as a fire
chief, where do you spend yourtime?
Where do you walk?
What do you do?
Where do you show up?

(41:14):
Now I know of fire chiefs thatwill not step foot in a fire
station because they're afraidabout, they don't want the
interaction with firefighters.
It's like man.
They may ask me a hard question, I can't answer.
If somebody asks me a hardquestion, I can't answer.
I say I can't answer that.

(41:34):
Say something If somebody asksme a question and the answer's
no, it's like hey, no, good foryou.
That was really nice that youasked that and there ain't no
way we're doing that or whateverit is.
Or let me get back to you, orwhatever.
But you see, some fire chiefsspend a lot of time in their
office which you should spendtime in your office, and you
spend a lot of time in theiroffice which you should spend
time in your office and you seea lot of fire chiefs spending

(41:59):
time having lunches withdignitaries and council members
and mayors.
You should do that also.
I'm not saying you don't do allthat, but your primary focus
should be how do I get out andinteract with the people that
are doing the work, and it'shard.
So in Houston we had four shiftsand 92 fire stations.
I'm not going to make all thefire stations, that's too many

(42:21):
fire stations but you get out toone or two a week and people
are like, oh, he's visitingstations, he's the chief that's
getting out and visitingstations.
And then you start hearing oh,he's going to that station.
Hey, tell him this.
But you've got to be somewhataccessible.
Some people will tell you if afire chief's out spending time
in fire stations.

(42:41):
He's not doing his job.
He needs to be in his job andworking for us and fighting a
council.
Yeah, you can do all that too,but that doesn't take a lot of
time.
You need to place, take yourfeet and place them in the best
position where you're accessible.

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Well, it's crazy that somebody that's been an
engineer for 25 years knows whatthe fire chief's job should be.
So a lot of it is patience andjust nodding and smiling at
people.
I've been to a number ofdifferent fire departments over
the last little while and it'smy observation that they're all

(43:18):
the same.
It's the same firefighters,it's the same people.
So you know, and I used to hearoh, they won't work here.
You know, maybe we'll workthere.
No, it won't work here becauseyou don't want it to.
So that's the differencebetween the is you have leaders
that say no, we're going to dothis, and then others that are
no, we can't, we're not going todo that, so it's yeah.

(43:41):
Being a fire chief is a lotlike being a parent, and not
everybody should be a parent.
So I think that's what you'releft with in the thing.

Speaker 4 (43:52):
Yeah, that idea of saying no, what you're left with
in the thing.
Yeah, that, that idea of sayingno.
It was a.
The dichotomy for me was I ledthe senior management team.
I said let's create a musclememory within ourselves that we
find a way to say yes, cause Ithink a lot of times it's just
so you get beaten down with somany ideas and work and it's and

(44:12):
it's just so much easier to sayno because it immediately
causes you and at the, you know,at that chief officer level, no
more work, no monkeys on yourback.
But what does that do to theworkforce?
What does it do to trust?
What does it do to themthinking that you value what
they're saying?

Speaker 3 (44:27):
it kills it there was an assistant chief in our
department and, uh, hisdescription was uh, I don't know
the question, but the answer isno, and that's what he was
known for his whole career.

Speaker 4 (44:42):
That chief is in all the departments.
Like you said, it's the sameperson.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
He's the one that called Garrison and said I need
30 minutes of your next thingand you're like, I don't think
so.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
No.
What's the next question?
When he said yes, he said yes,we have no banana.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Yeah, no that was his deal.
Double talk man.
Well, the dichotomy with thething with the leaders Every
weekend that guy would leave togo to Vegas to play blackjack
for the whole weekend and thendrive.
I mean you, just the strangestpeople, make up the whole son of
a fire department.
Yeah, I love it.
Oh, it's tremendous man, thegreatest place to work ever.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Sometimes we have to say no and there's a reason is
because we should all agree,like in an annual or strategic
plan of where we're heading andit's all about the work when do
we need to go over the next yearand the board and the
membership and labor.
Let's all get together andagree on that and then when it's

(45:44):
some idea that if I can relateit to the top five or 10 things
that we're working on, then it'sa yes and if it's outside of
that, then hey, it's no now andmaybe it'll be yes later, but
right now it's no.
So sometimes the best thing youcan say to keep you on track so
you make progress over time, isto say no and it's tiring to
explain why you said no, that'sno fun, but you take the time if

(46:08):
you can.
Yes, Terry, I agree Wheneverpossible to say.

Speaker 1 (46:10):
the answer is no, and here's why I found the best and
the really difficult questionswhere I said, where I was
getting ready to say no, becauseI didn't have to say no now.
It's not like the hazard zonewhere you've got to make a
decision right there.
I had some discretionary time.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
Good point.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
I said let me get back to you.
I would get labor and I'd bringthem in and I'd go hey, this is
what your member, our member, Ishould say our member asked,
and I'm going to tell him no.
I'm telling you, I'm going totell him no, so that you get on
board with this too, and we cankind of work.
This out and have our littleclosed discussion in here and

(46:46):
we'll be late, we'll eat, andsometimes that guy would the
union president would say, well,here's why he's saying he's
asking that, and you get thewhole picture and you go, oh
well, then, yeah, it's a yes.
I didn't know it was that.
I thought it was this and youcould get labor and have, and
bruno did that better thananybody, nick smiling because I
don't know why, but nick had alabor president that they will

(47:07):
get together and they were onthe same page about just about
everything.
I tried to do that with um, uh,the union presidents that I
worked with is try to get on thesame and even if we disagreed,
it's like here's why we'redisagreeing, let's do it in here
, man, if you're going to do itin this room, you know with the
doors shut, and tell me whyyou're calling me that, and then

(47:30):
let's you know.
And it's not always that easy.
Believe me, I get it Sometimes Iwant to MF them back, and I do,
and I did, but it's like whenwe leave the room.
Dude, you and I got to get onthe same pace because, they'll—
oh yeah, they're looking forthose cracks, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
So one other thing on listening I wanted your takes
on is when you get thefirefighter that comes to you
and says hey, Chief, can I talkto you off the record?
Yeah, I love that yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
What do you do?
I say no yeah.
That's a no, you could talk tome and I would love to hear
anything you got to say.
But because most of and this isexperience game a little bit
here Usually when somebody wantsto talk to you, off the record,
they're telling on, they'retrying to beat somebody else to,

(48:19):
whatever it is the discussionis about, and that's not fair,
and so it's like, yeah, I wouldlove to hear from you, but you
may tell me something that I mayhave to act on.
So nothing is really off therecord.
Never Come on, chief, you can,I want to, and you know what

(48:40):
they always tell you.
And when you tell them, no, youcan't tell me.
Off the record, I've never hadanybody say okay, then I'm not
going to tell you, and they walkout never, because they'll go.
Okay, chief, well, here it isOkay.
Well, here's what I got to do.
They never go away becausepeople want to tell you whatever
it is they're going to tell you.
Usually they want to get thatguy or that guy, or they did

(49:03):
something themselves that yougot to act on.
It's like okay well, thank youfor disclosing that.
Now, here's what I got to do.
Are you the same way?

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I mean yeah, are you the sameway?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
I wondered how you guys feltDid you get that a lot as either
a BC or a shift commander?
I got it more as a shiftcommander.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Especially when I moved, like the last three years
, I went from the CTC to settingthe board and the C-shift.
Well, all three boards had likeI counted it once like 583
people on them, the positions onthat board, and every morning

(49:46):
you had, at the before the startof the shift, you had to make
sure that everything was staffedso, and there was a phenomenon
that happened and they called ithusband-in-laws, and so I had
been a B-shifter my whole careerand then at the last three
years, they put me on C-shiftlike it was a science experiment
.
Well, within about I don't know, it may have taken a whole

(50:10):
shift, but they started to bemore like B-shift than they were
C-ift when they figured out whowas answering the phone.
So, and because I had workedwith C-Shift and spent so much
time with them, I had somedeeply profound relationships
with several of them and Ithought I own your board now.
So I'm going to start buildingstations where I will be there

(50:34):
two hours later, because I knowthere will be a personnel
situation that must be takencare of.
And there were two people that Iworked with on C-shift and one
of them had been there a reallylong time and knew them all.
So she was like the mother hento C-shift.
So I got up one morning, firstmorning there, and started
moving magnets around and shelooked and saw what I did and

(50:57):
then she got.
She didn't even say a word.
She got up and moved them backand I looked at her and she said
please don't do this.
And we both knew and I thoughtshe was right.
I thought okay, she gets to bein charge.
She's the adult.
And what do you want me to do?
She says there's plenty for youto do here.

(51:19):
We get three to four no's everyday in the morning.
You take care of that and we'lltake care of you.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
And I said okay, what does that mean?
Getting a no?

Speaker 3 (51:30):
Like somebody calls in and they said you're going
here today and they no, I'm not.
Oh, okay, hang on.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
And I picked the phone up Because we need you to
be a captain on engine 12.
No, I'm not going there.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Yeah, so, for whatever reason, they're not
going.
So they'd say they wouldn'teven argue, they'd just put them
on hold.
And every day there was two orthree people in the morning,
from five to seven.
Whenever we did that, and Iwould listen and see active
listening, and I'm because Iknow what the answer is going to
be when I pick it up 90 oftimes you're going there, that's

(52:05):
what you're going to do.
Well, maybe 80, because, like20, they would tell you why they
couldn't go there and you'relike move them, yeah, no, move
them, no.
I, you know what you told memove them, okay.
Well, then they figured out well, no, it was, I wanted to get
even too.
And so it was like no, we'reall gonna follow the same rules

(52:28):
then, and that's what we'regonna do, so that's so.
That's what I did basically.
But they would come insometimes and wake me up, like
it'd be three or four in themorning and they'd say
somebody's on the phone and Iwould get up and, okay, what's
going on?
And they were usuallyintoxicated somehow and they had

(52:48):
had enough of whatever it was,and so you would hear it was
like Real Housewives of of likeSalt Lake City level, shit, some
of it and you're like you arekidding me, and he says no, and
I'm like, wow man, I don't knowwhat to tell you.
That's a tough one.
I ain't got a shovel for thatone pal Call.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Dr Phil.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Yeah, that's the last person you want to talk to.
It's crazy.
The doctors that Oprah's givenus I don't think she goes to any
of them because she's healthy.
Yeah, I don't get that.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
And are they real?

Speaker 3 (53:20):
doctors.
You know celebrity is a toxicthing anymore in this society.
But that's enough of that,vance.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
I had a guy tell me no, I don't work, I'm a ladder
engineer.
I don't work on paramedicengine companies.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
Oh yeah, I got something for him.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
I wasn't kind to him.
I sent him where we had anopening for the next several
months, which was on a paramedicengine company.
You know, that's just what youdid.
At the end of the day, we hadthe power to do what I mean.
You can abuse that power or youcan use it for good or evil,

(54:02):
but setting the board anddeciding where rovers, because
about one-third of ourorganization will call in and
where do you go?

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Yeah, it's a big dynamic.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
You had a, so you know, most of the time I would
just set them where I needed toset them.
But, like you say, every oncein a while it's like I can't go
there because this guy's wifeand I and this happened.

Speaker 3 (54:21):
Yeah, I mean there's reasons.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
It's like, okay, thank you for that, because
you're going to have a muchbigger problem by about 8, 15
than you ever thought you weregoing to have.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
Yeah, there's see, and it's crazy have.
So, yeah, there's a see, andit's crazy, like the higher you
go, the more your leadershipaffects systems, like you say,
of how you deliver service andthings like that.
But every day there's also thepersonal things that come in
through the side doors, wherepeople are having human issues
because they're human beings,and so it's like no, we and we

(54:53):
have all these rules and theseare in place to keep general
order.
And so we's like no, we and wehave all these rules and these
are in place to keep generalorder, and so we all have common
expectations of one another.
But every now and then somebodygets upside down and, like the
example we used, all the time islike, uh, attendance and being
on time.
Well, okay, you got a guy who'slate.
What are you going to do?
Well, okay, here's my thing,and you know you don't think

(55:16):
enough of the crew and thecustomers to be here on time,
and blah, blah, blah, blah, andyou think, ok, so you're going
to take this action, I'm goingto suspend him and do this, that
and the other thing.
And then they tell him well,the guy be an hour late because
of whatever was going on.

(55:36):
And it's like, well, and thenthey feel horrible.
No, I know that I won't do thatand then you're like well for
them.
You're going to take this tohelp fix that situation.
If it's Jimmy, the 24 year old,recently divorced, I'm going to
go out and drink until four inthe morning and then come in at

(55:57):
seven.
That's a whole different.
This you're going to supportand help him get through a bad
time.
You're going to do the samething with Jimmy, but he's he's
going to learn personalresponsibility.
This person already knows hejust has too many things he's
responsible for now.
Jimmy is not responsible forJimmy.
So that's the problem.

(56:18):
So sometimes we have to raisepeople who just didn't get that.
See, and that's why the hiringprocess becomes so important.
See, like a year after I gothired, they started
fingerprinting candidates whenthey put their test in, and so

(56:40):
the reason they did that isbecause reading comprehension
was on the test.
Well, the guys who couldn'tread usually could do very well
physically.
So there was a guy that we bothknow and he went and got a
little Throckmorton to take histest.
So he got the highest writtenscore he gets in the academy and
he can't pass EMT because hecan't read.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
he's illiterate right , he can't spell EMT he can't.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Yeah, he did the vowel.
Now he could lift the building,the library, but he can't read
a book in it and I would neversay to him what I just said.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Well, you're going to have to die to do that because
he died early.

Speaker 3 (57:18):
They all do.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
But he would have crushed you.
Yeah, he would have.
Just he could squeeze yourheart out.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
It's okay to be afraid.
Yeah, he could squeeze hard,smart, but anyway.
So they started fingerprintingpeople and they said once you're
hired, we don't have theability to teach you to read in
the academy.
We did it with him and it wasvery disruptive organizationally
, yeah, and so they said we'renot going to do it anymore.
So if you take the test and youflunk three tests in the

(57:45):
academy and they run yourfingerprint, you're fired
because you lie, you can't.
So those kind of systems,there's no proxy.
Yeah, they had to put in placefor that reason.
So I mean that kind of systemsthere's no proxy.
They had to put in place forthat reason.
So I mean, that kind of becomesthe thing.
What was your question?
Yeah, I don't know.
We're all over the page now.
I forgot.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
I don't think we're going to get 200 hits off.
The record is where we got doyou guys have anything else on
listening?

Speaker 1 (58:12):
before we wrap that up, I think we talked about
listening.
I listened about listening.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah I listened about listening.
Yeah, yeah, all right there'smore to it in the.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
So just so you know there's more to it in the book
oh yeah, and in the text therethere's, he breaks it down even
so, the way the uh amp was built, just so you know, it's kind of
interesting.
So when bruno was putting thattogether, um, he would meet with
all of us, uh, he would meetwith whoever wanted to show up,

(58:43):
uh, and he would say ears, let'stalk about ears what do you
guys think is important withears?
and it's awesome he would writeon the boards all the things
that everybody 60 people in theclass would say and he would do
that for each body part and thenhe'd come back and we'd talk
about it and he went and thatlasted a year plus and he built

(59:05):
that book out of input fromfirefighters, engineers,
captains, battalion chiefs.
And then he put it together andmashed it all up.

Speaker 3 (59:14):
He was growing with that like six months into it.
And then he says, hey, I'mwriting this book on leadership
and it has to do with your bodyparts and using your body parts.
And he says I need you to writea story about each of these.
And he gave me a list of bodyparts and I said I don't know
anything about your leadershipideas.

(59:35):
He says no, I can't be, it'snothing.
He says whatever pops into yourhead for these body parts.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
I just want a fire department story on that.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
Okay, you guys are crazy.
And I wrote I don't know, let'ssay there's 12 of them.
I wrote like 18 stories andhe's like, no, I can't, but no
no.
I'd love it.
Will you change this nine?
Change it anything he left thatbody part.
Yeah, you ain't got that yeahuh-huh, yeah, you did, it's just
no, I can't okay there's somegreat stories in there, so

(01:00:07):
anyway, I love that book.
Yeah, it's a great book, youknow but the problem I think
with it is it's not stupid orcomplicated enough.
It's just too simplistic of it.
Like don't touch dirty money.
He says well, that's your handand your foot.
Don't go places where your handcan touch dirty money.
He says that's.
And he would tell you know thisis.

(01:00:29):
I said you should have gotsomebody else to write the
stories that have moreexperience with what happens
when you touch dirty money.
Yeah, yeah, that would be likea union official that's in jail,
and we knew a couple of them atthe time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Yeah, well, before we go, speaking of another book,
Timeless.
Tactical Truths.
It is in stock at the B Shifterstore $10.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
It's selling too.
Katie's pushing, I don't know,$40 or $50 out a week, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:00:59):
Oh, that's great.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Well, get it right now.
Well, they're great Christmasgifts.
Yes, put it in the stocking.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
Stocking stuffers.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, timeless to Actual Truth from Alan Brunicini
.
This one is good.
Procedures are so simple youdon't need to write them down to
remember them or use adictionary to understand them.
So how do you?

(01:01:29):
How do you guys in the past,especially when you're, when
you're coming up with newprocedures and it starts to get
overcomplicated, how do youfunnel that back down to
something that is more simpleand something that the troops
are going to understand?

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
to something that is more simple and something that
the troops are going tounderstand and remember.
Yeah, first of all, try to keepit simple on the front end.
You know, whatever you'reputting together, just remember
that there's a lot of differentpersonalities that have to
absorb that.
And I'm not saying dummy downthings, because that would be

(01:01:57):
terrible, but keeping somethingsimple is different than
dummying something down.
But keep things simple.
And if it focuses I'm going tosay it again you think we're a
broken record but if it focuseson the work and the customer,
that keeps it pretty simple.
It doesn't get much morecomplicated than that, right?

(01:02:23):
So it is funny that when youhave a thought or an idea, as it
moves through the system,everybody wants to put their
name on it or change it or addto it, just so they can have a
part of it.
And that's nice to give themthat opportunity.
But at the end of the day,you've got to grab all that and
you've got to pull it back intosomething.
That's nice to give them thatopportunity, but at the end of
the day, you've got to grab allthat and you've got to pull it
back into something that'ssimple.
You're better at this thananybody.
I know John is a talking point.

(01:02:45):
Can you explain it?
Did you call it the elevator?

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Yes, the elevator pitch, the elevator pitch.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
I think that's the key to when you have something,
because organizational change isdifficult.
It's not about process, it'sabout people, and when you're
ever implementing something, aprocedure or something, keep it
simple.
You can explain it.
Everybody should be able toexplain it, right?
So what is the elevator?
Say that again Elevator pitchElevator speech.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
You know, if you have 30 seconds with somebody, how
are you going to explain this?
That's it, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Yeah, that's good, john, I like that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
All right guys.
Thanks, it's been a been a goodone.
It's good getting together with.
It's been a couple of months soit's nice to see everybody back
together.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Yeah, you had hair.
Last time I saw you you hadfacial hair.
You had hair and hair.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
I'm shorn now.
As Austin Powers would sayThanks for listening to
V-Shifter.
We'll talk to you soon, bye-bye.