October 9, 2025 • 21 mins
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We share practical ways to build, lose, and rebuild trust inside a fire department, from consistent leadership and empowerment to acting on what you already know. We talk candidly about naming problems, guarding policy boundaries with data, and turning hard lessons into shared learning.
• conference highlights and thanks from Cincinnati
• upcoming NFPA 1700 webinar details and timing
• why trust collapses and how morale affects service
• consistency and candor as leadership basics
• empowerment and safety as trust multipliers
• listening for themes and sensing authenticity
• naming the problem and taking timely action
• fixing low-hanging fruit to build credibility
• guarding high-risk policies with data and presence
• debriefs, hot washes, and shared learning
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:03):
Hello everyone, welcome to the B Shifter
Podcast.
John Vance here.
Welcome.
Glad you're here with us today.
In just a moment, we'll begetting into a conversation with
the Silverbacks talking aboutbuilding trust.
And that was the workshop theydid at the Hazard Zone
Conference last week inCincinnati, if you caught it.
(00:26):
So this is a little more detailabout some of the things that
they were talking about duringthat workshop.
So stick around.
We're going to get into that injust a moment.
If you made it to Cincinnati, wewant to thank you.
It was a great Hazard Zoneconference this year.
We had over 400 participantsfrom all over the country that
(00:46):
participated over five days.
We did five pre-conferenceworkshops, and then we had the
general sessions on Thursday andFriday.
Great information, greatnetworking.
And over half of the folks whowere with us this year were
brand new to the conference.
So they were brand newattendees.
(01:07):
And then we got to see a lot ofour old friends that we we like
to see every year.
So thank you for attending.
If you are interested intraining opportunities in 2026,
go to bShifter.com.
There are a number of classes ontheir posted workshops and also
train the trainer classes.
And as far as the conferencegoes, we let the cat out of the
(01:30):
bag at the conference this year.
We have some new exciting stuffcoming up in 2026.
So we're not we're not ready toroll it out yet, but we will
very soon.
So stay tuned for that as well.
Another announcement is we havea webinar coming up at the end
of October, October 28th at 1p.m.
Eastern time, we will have awebinar on NFPA 1700.
(01:53):
Now, NFPA 1700 is the uh guidefor structural firefighting.
And what Chris Stewart and someother guests will be on talking
about is practical applicationof NFPA 1700 for incident
commanders.
So, how will NFPA 1700, once itcomes into effect in 2026, going
(02:15):
to affect you as an IC?
Well, join us on October 28thand find out.
We do the webinar live so thatyou can interact with us.
If you'd like to ask questionsand uh make comments, you can.
If you sign up, you will stillget the webinar sent to you.
Even if you can't make it live,you can watch it on demand after
(02:36):
that.
So we we give it to you bothways.
Even if you watch it live,you'll still have access to the
video version of it.
But we like to get folks onthere there live with us because
it's always nice to have theinteraction with people.
When we come back, we will do atimeless tactical truth.
But right now, let's slide itover to the silverbacks, Pat
Dale, Nick Brunicini, and TerryGarrison talking about building
(03:01):
trust.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
All right.
Well, one of the areas in inperson effectiveness is uh the
notion that the chief brought upabout building trust.
So a few thoughts about buildingtrust.
I'll lead into the the topicreally with questions, Terry.
So a question is why is trustimportant?
(03:23):
And without being able to havepeople listening to us here,
just some thoughts about why istrust important.
When you think about theopposite that I saw coming into
at least a couple oforganizations, again, as the
fire chief from the outside, wasthat really the the distrust in
the organization was palpablewalking into the station.
(03:47):
It was that apparent to me.
And I and I think it was rootedin a membership that was felt
like us versus them.
The the membership on the floorreferred to the the leadership
as the regime.
So I I not's not good.
So I I got from the themembership that what they they
(04:07):
felt undervalued, that they'renot listened to, they didn't
feel appreciated and important.
Seemed like simplistic things,but they got to this point where
they no longer felt those thingsin the relationship with the the
leadership, the chief officers.
So when that happens, thedistrust, the morale in the
department completely tanks.
(04:27):
There is distrust everywhere.
Work performance.
When you talk about, we alwaysbring it back to the the service
delivery that suffers with withthe the morale that that
suffers.
And and also people leave.
Again, they they don't quit badjobs, they quit bad leaders, the
(04:48):
chief used to say, right?
And that's all of that trust isthat's why it's important in
some thoughts that I have.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
And it's funny thing about trust is once you lose
trust, it takes a while to buildup.
It doesn't come backautomatically, it doesn't come
back fast.
You got to be patient as I buildthat back.
And what I've seen with affectleaders who lose trust, their
their members distrust them, isthey say one thing and they do
(05:16):
something else.
And you know, as a leader, whenwe say we're gonna do something,
we gotta do it, even if it's badnews.
If you're gonna give somebodybad news, be up front, give them
the bad news, tell them whatyou're gonna do, and then act
upon that because they expectthat, right?
That's a consistency.
I think consistency is anotherway we lose trust, is that
(05:38):
bosses shows up one way one dayhe's like this, and the next day
he took twice his meds orwhatever.
Jacqueline Hyde.
What the heck is going on?
And it's almost like a dog thatgets kicked.
The members start doing this.
Like, man, we don't trust thatguy.
So, you know, the way you theway you act towards people, and
then I thought I think peoplealso, if you treat them as
(06:02):
subordinates that are less thanyou, then they feel like you
don't value them as workers, andthat leads to a lack of trust,
right?
But if Bruno used to do a greatthing, and we're gonna talk
about it in our silverbackleadership later on, is the
empowerment card where youactually trust people to do the
job, and you you they would beable to go out and perform the
(06:26):
job and actually go beyond theirnormal expectations of the
customers and do a little bitmore for them, to where they
didn't have to go back and askfor permission.
It's like, hey man, I can I cantake this woman who's in the
rain and you tell a wonderfulstory about that, and take her
and put her in a fire apparatusand give her a ride home from
(06:47):
the bus stop where we justtreated her husband or whatever,
whatever that looks like, istrust your in trust your
employees to do the right thing.
We'll say this again and againin silverback leadership.
The best way to develop trustbetween you and your worker is
to support them in the work thatthey do.
(07:09):
If you don't keep them safe,they're not gonna trust you,
obviously.
If you don't support them andgive them the equipment and the
training they need, they'regonna lose trust in you also.
So really be a servant leader,and by doing that, you'll
develop a better relationship, aback and forth, and then trust,
like I said, that's a two-waystreet.
(07:30):
I talked about Bruno trusting uswhen we were young firefighters
to do the right thing.
If you trust your I don't thinkthere's it there's any
relationship where one sidetrusts and the other side
doesn't trust.
It's gotta go both trust is atwo-way street.
I really absolutely believethat.
There's gotta be trust from theleaders to the firefighters and
(07:53):
the firefighters on it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
I I agree, and that's the the chief used to say
yet uh if the uh leader wantstrust, you have to trust the
workers, right?
So uh and I thought of that asthat I wanted people to trust
me, and it's earned one day at atime and one step at a time,
then the way that I would dothat is by giving trust away.
That's a great way to think ofit.
SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
It's no different than uh anything else you do as
a leader or strategic executivelevel manager.
It's like if you look at an ICand what you want out of them is
is they show up to the scene andthey use the strategic
decision-making model to figureout the best action to take.
Well, we use that same system tomanage the fire department.
(08:39):
Yeah, so like when you talkabout the body parts, all you're
doing is inputting the the toolsthat a human being uses to soak
in information so you can make abetter decision.
And there's a variety of those,and and a lot of them come from
listening.
So that's the way you getinformed.
But you and you have to put itall together.
(09:02):
So, like you use your nose tosmell, does this smell authentic
to me?
And your eyes, is this are youacting this out visually in the
way that makes sense with whatyou're saying and everything
else?
And so you have all thisdifferent way to take in this
information, and then you figureout, okay, my job in this
(09:22):
organization is it for servicedelivery, is to lead in such and
such a way.
So, like one of the examplesthat the best ones I've heard is
Gordon Graham was talking aboutthis, is he gets hired to go to
teach this group, and they'rehaving a problem in this company
with sexual harassment oftreating each other in
(09:44):
non-sexual professional ways,you know, because you got men
and women working in this place,and this is an ongoing issue.
So he figures out what his goalis based on what he's being
hired to do.
He goes in and he's got thisgroup of, I don't know, 40 or 50
people, and he's gonna give thispresentation on just good
workplace hygiene and practices.
(10:07):
Before he starts, he says, Iwant, he passes out three by
five cards to everybody.
He says, I want you to writedown the three people in this
company who you think will getthis company in trouble with
some kind of sexual harassmentclaim.
And so they write down threenames and pass them in.
And so he goes on and he doeshis two-hour thing, very
(10:28):
entertaining.
So he has the ability to kind ofuse humor to make his point.
He gets done with the thing, andhis boss comes back, and the the
guy who hired him was sitting inthe back of the room, said, Oh,
Gordon, that was great, that wasperfect, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
Well, before Gordon sat downwith him, he went through the
cards.
He said, the same two names wereon every card.
(10:49):
The third name changed.
He says, but the third name,there was like four or five
people that was the same.
He says, The reason you hiredme?
And the guy said, Yeah.
He says, same two names are onevery card.
There's your problem.
So now what he did is he put theguy who hired him in a pretty
(11:10):
juicy spot because now you know.
And it's like, no, you've theworkforce told you, this pro
that you brought in to do HRstuff told you.
So now, what are you gonna do,leader?
Because you're you're you'reprimed, you got everything you
need to make a decision now.
And it's like you said before,Terry, you gotta make a decision
that supports what you're tryingto pull off here.
SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
And what are the odds that that leader already
knew those two names?
Oh, yeah, good point.
100%.
SPEAKER_03 (11:38):
He needed somebody else to tell him, and now you're
but he paid somebody uh fivefigures to come in to fix this
for him, and Gordon ain't gonnafix it.
He can identify it, but uh andI'm sure those two people were
in the room.
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Let me just segue to something that is about that,
but not about that.
Here are the four to eightthings that are gonna cause a
fatality on a fire ground.
SPEAKER_03 (12:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:06):
Here they are.
There's five.
Top five.
Yeah.
Top five.
Here they are.
What are you gonna do aboutthem?
Right?
They're in this, they're there.
You identify them, they'rethere, you're responsible for
them.
Somebody needs to hand you thefive, or you're gonna pick up a
NIAS report and read the samefive and then go to another NIAS
(12:28):
report and read the same five.
Are you gonna learn from that?
So I think that's back to ourmembers know bullshit.
Some people know if they cantrust you to make good decisions
about those kind of things.
And those people sitting in thatroom knew not only did he know
those two, they knew that heknew those two.
(12:49):
So that impacts the trust.
We'll bring it all the way backaround.
That impacts the trust thatthose people have with that
leader when you knew those two,you didn't do anything about it.
Here we are today.
Listen to this expert.
We don't trust you to make agood decision because you
haven't made one yet.
Now's your chance to startmoving back towards the trust
(13:12):
line.
So to bring it all back totrust, right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
It's so true.
Yeah, you know, and back tothose listening meetings.
I didn't hand out three by fivecards and ask for three names,
but I got them anyway.
Yeah, I was I was listening forthemes.
I told the story about a tenderin another clip here, but I
heard names.
SPEAKER_03 (13:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
And and they were not afraid to to tell me because
I was not a threat.
I'm coming in new.
They had grievances they need toair and what themes were a
couple names.
And now, again, the juicy spotI'm in, what am I gonna do about
it?
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
Yep.
Now you better act on it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
Well, and you know, those names, those people
attached to those names aregonna drive that process.
If you have a boss that says,I'm gonna take action to correct
this situation, because thepeople, the those people need to
change if they're gonna stay.
And in many cases, they're notgoing to because they have been
(14:13):
in power for so long, and thisis the way it's gonna be.
And you suck as a new bossbecause you're not letting me do
this this subjugation to theworkforce.
Right.
Well, yeah, both of you dealtwith those people, and they end
up leaving.
They're like, no, I can't dothis.
I'm I'm a bully, I'm gonna gowork where I can be a bully.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
Well, you know, I that sorry to interrupt, you
know.
I mean, a name comes to mind.
I watched.
I I had to see for myself and aconversation, and then I
thought, well, can I can Imentor?
Can he get some professionalcoaching?
And as and as I really thoughtabout it, I think it was he
cashed in too much relationshipcapital with the whole
(14:55):
organization that if it wasexcellent work, it wouldn't be
it wouldn't be enough.
And then I thought, I'll I'llconfess, I thought, can I move
this person?
And then I thought, Pat, you youknow, you can't just move the
problem, you got to deal withthe problem.
And so in a pretty short order,I help the person leave the
(15:15):
organization.
It was it was needed.
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
If you're a leader in an organization and and
there's a trust issue, I don'tcare if you're a fire captain, a
battalion chief, or the firechief, there are some
low-hanging fruit that if youjust pay attention for about a
minute, you'll identify thoselow-hanging fruit, whether it's
an assistant chief who is inresource who's never supported
(15:40):
his members, deal with that, oryou're a fire captain and you
got a firefighter on your crewwho's not participating in the
daily activities, you deal withthat.
Those low-hanging fruits, if youdeal with those as a leader and
a and and you could do that in away that you're not gonna beat
anybody after you're gonna say,I see you doing that, and you're
(16:00):
not gonna do that no more.
You will build credibility,which is trust, and you'll be
able to move your positionforward and hopefully the
organization forward becauseyou're gonna focus on the work.
SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
See, Terry, but there are some instances where
you know the truth, and thetruth shall set you free.
So, like going back to the NIASHfive, top five.
And so we know the set ofthings, and if you stop doing
those five things, you becomemore effective operationally.
So it means you get it all clearquicker, you get the fire
control quicker, you're donequicker, everything just goes
(16:34):
smoother.
So, and and those are kind ofwhat drove us, like at the CTC
and everything else.
But you always had people thatdidn't agree with that.
And I mean that this is aproblem in the country now with
the polarization of just simplelike years ago, we heard the
term alternative facts.
Well, that's just another way ofsaying bullshit.
(16:57):
So what that is is they did aventilation policy here, and
it's still in effect today, thaton lightweight residential tile
roofs, you will not performvertical ventilation.
Well, the entire time that wasin place, I'm gonna say that
(17:18):
over half the the leaders of thelatter people tried to get that
changed because they said, no,this is what we do.
You're an L, I'm a hammer.
This is the way this works.
So it took strong leadership tosay, no, you're not doing this
anymore.
We're making this change.
(17:38):
Well, 90% of the fire departmentthought, yeah, what's the big
deal?
Well, there's gonna be 10% thatyou're gonna have to guard the
perimeters of that all the time.
And we would periodically getthings where guys were like the
crews were trying to outperformthat sometimes.
And you the so you had to comeback to it and say, no, this is
what we're doing.
(17:59):
And it was odd because none ofthem could ever bring forth hard
data that supported anything.
So it's like you guys believe infairy tales.
Uh-uh.
You need like a designated adultall the time, which was the IC,
basically.
So that's the way you paroledand nobody lost their job.
(18:22):
I don't think anybody gotsuspended.
But they knew no, if I getcaught doing this, this is gonna
be a thing.
I don't I don't want to subjectmyself to it.
The squeeze ain't worth thejuice in it, right?
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
Excellent topic on building trust from the
Silverbacks.
Thank you to Pat Dale, NickBrunissini, and Terry Garrison.
That module will be out soon.
So they continue to add modules.
If you are a blue cardsubscriber, you get those
modules in the ContinuingEducation Download Center.
So thanks to the Silverbacks forthat.
(18:58):
Now it's time for a TimelessTactical Truth.
Timeless Tactical Truth fromAlan Brunicini.
By the way, look at my TimelessTactical Truth book.
It is, this has been on the roadgetting some creases on it if
you're watching this on video.
You can get these books for$10each at the B Shifter store.
(19:22):
Great uh stocking stuff arecoming up or just to have around
the firehouse.
It's really nice.
So today's Timeless TacticalTruth.
Educational times on the fireground are many times not fun
times.
Educational times on the fireground are many times not fun
(19:43):
times.
You know, that's why we try totrain on possible situations
that we may be facing on thefire ground, but it's impossible
to train for everything.
And sometimes you will beblindsided by a complex or
challenging incident.
So you try not to overcomplicateit.
That's what I would say for mybit of advice.
And then once you get done withthat incident, try to hot wash
(20:07):
it.
Go back and do an after-actionreview, learn from it, make your
adjustments and share thatinformation with your
department, your mutual aidpartners, and everybody else,
because we don't always all haveto go through the same cruddy
circumstance.
We are good at sharing thingssometimes in the fire service.
Let's keep that up and share theinformation that we're getting
(20:29):
out there.
Well, that's it for today's BShifter Podcast.
We thank you very much forlistening.
Make sure to like and subscribe.
Leave us a review too.
That really helps us out becauseit gets us into what the kids
call an algorithm.
So uh help us out with thealgorithm.
Leave us a nice uh review andalso like and subscribe.
(20:50):
Until next time, thanks forlistening to the Bee Shifter
Podcast.
Hello everyone, welcome to the B Shifter
Podcast.
John Vance here.
Welcome.
Glad you're here with us today.
In just a moment, we'll begetting into a conversation with
the Silverbacks talking aboutbuilding trust.
And that was the workshop theydid at the Hazard Zone
Conference last week inCincinnati, if you caught it.
(00:26):
So this is a little more detailabout some of the things that
they were talking about duringthat workshop.
So stick around.
We're going to get into that injust a moment.
If you made it to Cincinnati, wewant to thank you.
It was a great Hazard Zoneconference this year.
We had over 400 participantsfrom all over the country that
(00:46):
participated over five days.
We did five pre-conferenceworkshops, and then we had the
general sessions on Thursday andFriday.
Great information, greatnetworking.
And over half of the folks whowere with us this year were
brand new to the conference.
So they were brand newattendees.
(01:07):
And then we got to see a lot ofour old friends that we we like
to see every year.
So thank you for attending.
If you are interested intraining opportunities in 2026,
go to bShifter.com.
There are a number of classes ontheir posted workshops and also
train the trainer classes.
And as far as the conferencegoes, we let the cat out of the
(01:30):
bag at the conference this year.
We have some new exciting stuffcoming up in 2026.
So we're not we're not ready toroll it out yet, but we will
very soon.
So stay tuned for that as well.
Another announcement is we havea webinar coming up at the end
of October, October 28th at 1p.m.
Eastern time, we will have awebinar on NFPA 1700.
(01:53):
Now, NFPA 1700 is the uh guidefor structural firefighting.
And what Chris Stewart and someother guests will be on talking
about is practical applicationof NFPA 1700 for incident
commanders.
So, how will NFPA 1700, once itcomes into effect in 2026, going
(02:15):
to affect you as an IC?
Well, join us on October 28thand find out.
We do the webinar live so thatyou can interact with us.
If you'd like to ask questionsand uh make comments, you can.
If you sign up, you will stillget the webinar sent to you.
Even if you can't make it live,you can watch it on demand after
(02:36):
that.
So we we give it to you bothways.
Even if you watch it live,you'll still have access to the
video version of it.
But we like to get folks onthere there live with us because
it's always nice to have theinteraction with people.
When we come back, we will do atimeless tactical truth.
But right now, let's slide itover to the silverbacks, Pat
Dale, Nick Brunicini, and TerryGarrison talking about building
(03:01):
trust.
SPEAKER_00 (03:03):
All right.
Well, one of the areas in inperson effectiveness is uh the
notion that the chief brought upabout building trust.
So a few thoughts about buildingtrust.
I'll lead into the the topicreally with questions, Terry.
So a question is why is trustimportant?
(03:23):
And without being able to havepeople listening to us here,
just some thoughts about why istrust important.
When you think about theopposite that I saw coming into
at least a couple oforganizations, again, as the
fire chief from the outside, wasthat really the the distrust in
the organization was palpablewalking into the station.
(03:47):
It was that apparent to me.
And I and I think it was rootedin a membership that was felt
like us versus them.
The the membership on the floorreferred to the the leadership
as the regime.
So I I not's not good.
So I I got from the themembership that what they they
(04:07):
felt undervalued, that they'renot listened to, they didn't
feel appreciated and important.
Seemed like simplistic things,but they got to this point where
they no longer felt those thingsin the relationship with the the
leadership, the chief officers.
So when that happens, thedistrust, the morale in the
department completely tanks.
(04:27):
There is distrust everywhere.
Work performance.
When you talk about, we alwaysbring it back to the the service
delivery that suffers with withthe the morale that that
suffers.
And and also people leave.
Again, they they don't quit badjobs, they quit bad leaders, the
(04:48):
chief used to say, right?
And that's all of that trust isthat's why it's important in
some thoughts that I have.
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
And it's funny thing about trust is once you lose
trust, it takes a while to buildup.
It doesn't come backautomatically, it doesn't come
back fast.
You got to be patient as I buildthat back.
And what I've seen with affectleaders who lose trust, their
their members distrust them, isthey say one thing and they do
(05:16):
something else.
And you know, as a leader, whenwe say we're gonna do something,
we gotta do it, even if it's badnews.
If you're gonna give somebodybad news, be up front, give them
the bad news, tell them whatyou're gonna do, and then act
upon that because they expectthat, right?
That's a consistency.
I think consistency is anotherway we lose trust, is that
(05:38):
bosses shows up one way one dayhe's like this, and the next day
he took twice his meds orwhatever.
Jacqueline Hyde.
What the heck is going on?
And it's almost like a dog thatgets kicked.
The members start doing this.
Like, man, we don't trust thatguy.
So, you know, the way you theway you act towards people, and
then I thought I think peoplealso, if you treat them as
(06:02):
subordinates that are less thanyou, then they feel like you
don't value them as workers, andthat leads to a lack of trust,
right?
But if Bruno used to do a greatthing, and we're gonna talk
about it in our silverbackleadership later on, is the
empowerment card where youactually trust people to do the
job, and you you they would beable to go out and perform the
(06:26):
job and actually go beyond theirnormal expectations of the
customers and do a little bitmore for them, to where they
didn't have to go back and askfor permission.
It's like, hey man, I can I cantake this woman who's in the
rain and you tell a wonderfulstory about that, and take her
and put her in a fire apparatusand give her a ride home from
(06:47):
the bus stop where we justtreated her husband or whatever,
whatever that looks like, istrust your in trust your
employees to do the right thing.
We'll say this again and againin silverback leadership.
The best way to develop trustbetween you and your worker is
to support them in the work thatthey do.
(07:09):
If you don't keep them safe,they're not gonna trust you,
obviously.
If you don't support them andgive them the equipment and the
training they need, they'regonna lose trust in you also.
So really be a servant leader,and by doing that, you'll
develop a better relationship, aback and forth, and then trust,
like I said, that's a two-waystreet.
(07:30):
I talked about Bruno trusting uswhen we were young firefighters
to do the right thing.
If you trust your I don't thinkthere's it there's any
relationship where one sidetrusts and the other side
doesn't trust.
It's gotta go both trust is atwo-way street.
I really absolutely believethat.
There's gotta be trust from theleaders to the firefighters and
(07:53):
the firefighters on it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
I I agree, and that's the the chief used to say
yet uh if the uh leader wantstrust, you have to trust the
workers, right?
So uh and I thought of that asthat I wanted people to trust
me, and it's earned one day at atime and one step at a time,
then the way that I would dothat is by giving trust away.
That's a great way to think ofit.
SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
It's no different than uh anything else you do as
a leader or strategic executivelevel manager.
It's like if you look at an ICand what you want out of them is
is they show up to the scene andthey use the strategic
decision-making model to figureout the best action to take.
Well, we use that same system tomanage the fire department.
(08:39):
Yeah, so like when you talkabout the body parts, all you're
doing is inputting the the toolsthat a human being uses to soak
in information so you can make abetter decision.
And there's a variety of those,and and a lot of them come from
listening.
So that's the way you getinformed.
But you and you have to put itall together.
(09:02):
So, like you use your nose tosmell, does this smell authentic
to me?
And your eyes, is this are youacting this out visually in the
way that makes sense with whatyou're saying and everything
else?
And so you have all thisdifferent way to take in this
information, and then you figureout, okay, my job in this
(09:22):
organization is it for servicedelivery, is to lead in such and
such a way.
So, like one of the examplesthat the best ones I've heard is
Gordon Graham was talking aboutthis, is he gets hired to go to
teach this group, and they'rehaving a problem in this company
with sexual harassment oftreating each other in
(09:44):
non-sexual professional ways,you know, because you got men
and women working in this place,and this is an ongoing issue.
So he figures out what his goalis based on what he's being
hired to do.
He goes in and he's got thisgroup of, I don't know, 40 or 50
people, and he's gonna give thispresentation on just good
workplace hygiene and practices.
(10:07):
Before he starts, he says, Iwant, he passes out three by
five cards to everybody.
He says, I want you to writedown the three people in this
company who you think will getthis company in trouble with
some kind of sexual harassmentclaim.
And so they write down threenames and pass them in.
And so he goes on and he doeshis two-hour thing, very
(10:28):
entertaining.
So he has the ability to kind ofuse humor to make his point.
He gets done with the thing, andhis boss comes back, and the the
guy who hired him was sitting inthe back of the room, said, Oh,
Gordon, that was great, that wasperfect, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
Well, before Gordon sat downwith him, he went through the
cards.
He said, the same two names wereon every card.
(10:49):
The third name changed.
He says, but the third name,there was like four or five
people that was the same.
He says, The reason you hiredme?
And the guy said, Yeah.
He says, same two names are onevery card.
There's your problem.
So now what he did is he put theguy who hired him in a pretty
(11:10):
juicy spot because now you know.
And it's like, no, you've theworkforce told you, this pro
that you brought in to do HRstuff told you.
So now, what are you gonna do,leader?
Because you're you're you'reprimed, you got everything you
need to make a decision now.
And it's like you said before,Terry, you gotta make a decision
that supports what you're tryingto pull off here.
SPEAKER_02 (11:32):
And what are the odds that that leader already
knew those two names?
Oh, yeah, good point.
100%.
SPEAKER_03 (11:38):
He needed somebody else to tell him, and now you're
but he paid somebody uh fivefigures to come in to fix this
for him, and Gordon ain't gonnafix it.
He can identify it, but uh andI'm sure those two people were
in the room.
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Let me just segue to something that is about that,
but not about that.
Here are the four to eightthings that are gonna cause a
fatality on a fire ground.
SPEAKER_03 (12:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:06):
Here they are.
There's five.
Top five.
Yeah.
Top five.
Here they are.
What are you gonna do aboutthem?
Right?
They're in this, they're there.
You identify them, they'rethere, you're responsible for
them.
Somebody needs to hand you thefive, or you're gonna pick up a
NIAS report and read the samefive and then go to another NIAS
(12:28):
report and read the same five.
Are you gonna learn from that?
So I think that's back to ourmembers know bullshit.
Some people know if they cantrust you to make good decisions
about those kind of things.
And those people sitting in thatroom knew not only did he know
those two, they knew that heknew those two.
(12:49):
So that impacts the trust.
We'll bring it all the way backaround.
That impacts the trust thatthose people have with that
leader when you knew those two,you didn't do anything about it.
Here we are today.
Listen to this expert.
We don't trust you to make agood decision because you
haven't made one yet.
Now's your chance to startmoving back towards the trust
(13:12):
line.
So to bring it all back totrust, right?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
It's so true.
Yeah, you know, and back tothose listening meetings.
I didn't hand out three by fivecards and ask for three names,
but I got them anyway.
Yeah, I was I was listening forthemes.
I told the story about a tenderin another clip here, but I
heard names.
SPEAKER_03 (13:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
And and they were not afraid to to tell me because
I was not a threat.
I'm coming in new.
They had grievances they need toair and what themes were a
couple names.
And now, again, the juicy spotI'm in, what am I gonna do about
it?
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
Yep.
Now you better act on it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:51):
That's right.
SPEAKER_03 (13:52):
Well, and you know, those names, those people
attached to those names aregonna drive that process.
If you have a boss that says,I'm gonna take action to correct
this situation, because thepeople, the those people need to
change if they're gonna stay.
And in many cases, they're notgoing to because they have been
(14:13):
in power for so long, and thisis the way it's gonna be.
And you suck as a new bossbecause you're not letting me do
this this subjugation to theworkforce.
Right.
Well, yeah, both of you dealtwith those people, and they end
up leaving.
They're like, no, I can't dothis.
I'm I'm a bully, I'm gonna gowork where I can be a bully.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (14:33):
Well, you know, I that sorry to interrupt, you
know.
I mean, a name comes to mind.
I watched.
I I had to see for myself and aconversation, and then I
thought, well, can I can Imentor?
Can he get some professionalcoaching?
And as and as I really thoughtabout it, I think it was he
cashed in too much relationshipcapital with the whole
(14:55):
organization that if it wasexcellent work, it wouldn't be
it wouldn't be enough.
And then I thought, I'll I'llconfess, I thought, can I move
this person?
And then I thought, Pat, you youknow, you can't just move the
problem, you got to deal withthe problem.
And so in a pretty short order,I help the person leave the
(15:15):
organization.
It was it was needed.
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
If you're a leader in an organization and and
there's a trust issue, I don'tcare if you're a fire captain, a
battalion chief, or the firechief, there are some
low-hanging fruit that if youjust pay attention for about a
minute, you'll identify thoselow-hanging fruit, whether it's
an assistant chief who is inresource who's never supported
(15:40):
his members, deal with that, oryou're a fire captain and you
got a firefighter on your crewwho's not participating in the
daily activities, you deal withthat.
Those low-hanging fruits, if youdeal with those as a leader and
a and and you could do that in away that you're not gonna beat
anybody after you're gonna say,I see you doing that, and you're
(16:00):
not gonna do that no more.
You will build credibility,which is trust, and you'll be
able to move your positionforward and hopefully the
organization forward becauseyou're gonna focus on the work.
SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
See, Terry, but there are some instances where
you know the truth, and thetruth shall set you free.
So, like going back to the NIASHfive, top five.
And so we know the set ofthings, and if you stop doing
those five things, you becomemore effective operationally.
So it means you get it all clearquicker, you get the fire
control quicker, you're donequicker, everything just goes
(16:34):
smoother.
So, and and those are kind ofwhat drove us, like at the CTC
and everything else.
But you always had people thatdidn't agree with that.
And I mean that this is aproblem in the country now with
the polarization of just simplelike years ago, we heard the
term alternative facts.
Well, that's just another way ofsaying bullshit.
(16:57):
So what that is is they did aventilation policy here, and
it's still in effect today, thaton lightweight residential tile
roofs, you will not performvertical ventilation.
Well, the entire time that wasin place, I'm gonna say that
(17:18):
over half the the leaders of thelatter people tried to get that
changed because they said, no,this is what we do.
You're an L, I'm a hammer.
This is the way this works.
So it took strong leadership tosay, no, you're not doing this
anymore.
We're making this change.
(17:38):
Well, 90% of the fire departmentthought, yeah, what's the big
deal?
Well, there's gonna be 10% thatyou're gonna have to guard the
perimeters of that all the time.
And we would periodically getthings where guys were like the
crews were trying to outperformthat sometimes.
And you the so you had to comeback to it and say, no, this is
what we're doing.
(17:59):
And it was odd because none ofthem could ever bring forth hard
data that supported anything.
So it's like you guys believe infairy tales.
Uh-uh.
You need like a designated adultall the time, which was the IC,
basically.
So that's the way you paroledand nobody lost their job.
(18:22):
I don't think anybody gotsuspended.
But they knew no, if I getcaught doing this, this is gonna
be a thing.
I don't I don't want to subjectmyself to it.
The squeeze ain't worth thejuice in it, right?
SPEAKER_01 (18:36):
Excellent topic on building trust from the
Silverbacks.
Thank you to Pat Dale, NickBrunissini, and Terry Garrison.
That module will be out soon.
So they continue to add modules.
If you are a blue cardsubscriber, you get those
modules in the ContinuingEducation Download Center.
So thanks to the Silverbacks forthat.
(18:58):
Now it's time for a TimelessTactical Truth.
Timeless Tactical Truth fromAlan Brunicini.
By the way, look at my TimelessTactical Truth book.
It is, this has been on the roadgetting some creases on it if
you're watching this on video.
You can get these books for$10each at the B Shifter store.
(19:22):
Great uh stocking stuff arecoming up or just to have around
the firehouse.
It's really nice.
So today's Timeless TacticalTruth.
Educational times on the fireground are many times not fun
times.
Educational times on the fireground are many times not fun
(19:43):
times.
You know, that's why we try totrain on possible situations
that we may be facing on thefire ground, but it's impossible
to train for everything.
And sometimes you will beblindsided by a complex or
challenging incident.
So you try not to overcomplicateit.
That's what I would say for mybit of advice.
And then once you get done withthat incident, try to hot wash
(20:07):
it.
Go back and do an after-actionreview, learn from it, make your
adjustments and share thatinformation with your
department, your mutual aidpartners, and everybody else,
because we don't always all haveto go through the same cruddy
circumstance.
We are good at sharing thingssometimes in the fire service.
Let's keep that up and share theinformation that we're getting
(20:29):
out there.
Well, that's it for today's BShifter Podcast.
We thank you very much forlistening.
Make sure to like and subscribe.
Leave us a review too.
That really helps us out becauseit gets us into what the kids
call an algorithm.
So uh help us out with thealgorithm.
Leave us a nice uh review andalso like and subscribe.
(20:50):
Until next time, thanks forlistening to the Bee Shifter
Podcast.
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