October 23, 2025 • 56 mins
This episode features Josh Blum, Chris Stewart and John Vance.
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We lay out what IC 1 must own, what IC 2 must enforce, and why fitness for duty includes training, standards, and honest evaluation. Other highlights include:
• expectations for first‑due company officers as IC1
• training to a published command standard
• fitness for duty across physical, mental, and procedural readiness
• acting officers trained to the same bar as promoted officers
• chiefs enforcing the IAP and ending free‑lancing
• NFPA 1700 as a practical guide for tactics and search
• building a deep bench and stopping target‑moving
• focusing the station and cutting distractions
• using the eight functions of command end‑to‑end
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
Welcome to the B Shifter Podcast.
Today, got John Vance, ChrisStewart, and Josh Bloom.
And we'll be talking about theresponsibilities and
expectations of company officersand responsibilities of response
chiefs as well, and sort oftheir fitness for duty level.
(01:07):
And it's going to be a follow-upto last week's podcast where uh
we had Gary and Eric heretalking about first do now own
it, which was really theresponsibilities of that first
due company officer.
But we wanted to delve deep andinto really what the
expectations should be of boththat first due company officer
who's going to arrive as ICnumber one, and then IC number
(01:30):
two as a response chief.
But before we get into that,let's check in with the guys.
Chris, how are you doing?
I'm swell.
Thank you very much.
It's good to see you.
It's been been a little bitsince we last hung out.
SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
I'm glad you're back here in the beautiful I'm happy
to be here too.
World headquarters of Blue Card.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
And from Cincinnati, we've got uh Josh.
Josh, how are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
I'm good.
I'm all good.
Wintertime's just around thecorner, sweatshirt weather,
college football's on on theweekends.
It's yeah, fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
We have a lot of classes filling up right now,
too.
What do we what do we have goingfor the rest of this year?
And then what's the outlooklooking like for next year with
our activity level?
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Yeah, so we got I think there's uh four or five
seats in the November train thetrainer class in Phoenix.
Other than that, everyeverything else we got for the
rest of the year is full.
So we got uh big box class upthere in Minnesota and you're in
Hennepin County or yourneighboring county up there
somewhere.
We got a Mayday workshop inKernersville.
(02:29):
They're this week they're inMassachusetts and Central County
uh Missouri for trainers.
Next week they're at Athens,Clark County, Georgia for a
trainer.
We're assisting several firedepartments that are just coming
online with some cert labsbetween now and the end of the
year.
And then next year's schedule ispretty filled up through May.
(02:53):
We got some we got some spotswhere we can plug people in in
those first five months.
But uh if you go to ourcalendar, you can see that we
got four or five events everymonth scheduled already through
April anyway.
So if you're looking to do atrainer, some kind of workshop,
Mayday, big box, division ops,critical thinking, the safety
(03:15):
train a trainer, any of that,reach out and we'll work to get
you plugged into the schedule.
But schedule is definitelyfilling up for for next year.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Well, and we we've got the ARF train the trainer
also here in the in Phoenix inDecember.
And I think that's over halffull now, if I remember right,
for for those folks.
And and we've been getting a lotof interest from other
departments and other airports,both in the US and Canada.
So hopefully we we have thatfull pretty soon and looking
(03:50):
forward to delivering those andthen kind of planning out that
calendar for 2026 with you knowa lot of the requests that are
coming in for us, you know, totake that on the road now.
SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Make sure to hit up b shifter.com if you want to
look at all those dates and allthe other opportunities to
learn.
We've we've got it all there foryou.
And we also have on there theNFPA.
Well, we're doing it uh ifyou're if you're listening uh
before the 28th, we have a livewebinar coming up on NFPA 1700
(04:22):
and its impact on incidentcommanders and what the ICs
should be looking at as far asyou know being compliant.
I are are we calling itcompliance, Chris, or where are
we looking at just trying tofollow it as a guideline?
What give us a preview of whatthat webinar is going to
discuss?
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Yeah, I think the technical term they use is a
guide.
It's a structural firefightingguide.
So somebody had asked actuallythe question at the conference,
you know, is this going to be asrigid as a 921 has become with
regards to fire investigationand and those elements?
And I don't necessarily see thatbecause it doesn't it's not
prescriptive.
(04:58):
It's not saying, all right, uhat this building type with these
conditions, this is what youshould do.
It's here are all theconsiderations you need to have
when looking at either buildingtypes or specific tactics, or
now there's there's a chapterthat you know what previous was
not previously in 1700 that haseverything to do with search and
(05:19):
rescue and life safety.
So these are considerations andrecommendations for some best
practice.
I think it's absolutely worthknowing and understanding, and
and and it's a very much youknow universally needed
document.
But I don't know that it's gonnabe, you know, it's not as rigid
(05:42):
as I think maybe some of thefire service would like, right?
It's it's about considerations,it's about critical thinking,
it's about being able toevaluate what actually is going
on and what it actually means onthe fire ground.
So I I uh I look forward toactually talking about it uh
next week.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
And if you would like to sign up and join us
live, you can either go to the BShifter Buck Slip.
There's a sign up there, go toany of our social medias, and we
will also include in the shownotes on this podcast where you
can sign up and and participatelive.
Part of participating live inour webinars is really an
opportunity for you to interactwith us, ask questions.
(06:19):
But if you can't join us live,you can always get it on demand.
So all you have to do is sign upas soon as the webinar is
completed.
We'll send you a link to thevideo and you can watch it at
your leisure then after that.
So today's uh topic, we'll we'llhop into it, is talking about uh
expectations andresponsibilities.
And let's start off with thecompany officers because they
(06:40):
are the ones that really startoff our response.
And when you're outlining uh andwe're gonna keep this more on a
broad spectrum, I think, just uhan overall uh what you should be
expecting from the fire chief ondown out of people who play
these roles.
So let's let's start with thecompany officer and start
talking about their expectationswhen it comes to response.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Yeah, well, I I think I think Gary and Eric did
a really nice job of kind ofoutlining the perspective of and
and they inside theirdepartments kind of had to make
some operational changes withwhat is expected of initial
arriving company officers.
And and they use the blue cardsystem to kind of help them be
(07:24):
able to do that inside theirorganizations and their, you
know, geographically verydifferent organizations, one
from the East Coast, one fromthe West Coast, but they
functionally and operationallywork way closer and more
similarly than maybe they wouldeven ever give credit to because
of that same expectation.
(07:45):
So in making that, they had tolay out clear expectations.
This is what we want our compcommand or excuse me, our
company officers as initialarrivers at an incident to be
able to do.
And and what is it, what isexpected?
What is your role going to bewhen you arrive?
And it's very clear the role isyou are going to be the initial
(08:07):
incident commander.
And that means you areresponsible for the actions, the
evaluation, and the the workthat happens at that incident,
right?
And that seems very overwhelmingand very uh daunting to folks
who have never done it before,but it absolutely is a trainable
skill.
It's a, it's a, it's somethingthat that uh over time, when we
(08:30):
develop, we turn folks, everydaycompany officers into pretty
effective incident commanderswhen when they know what they're
supposed to do, when they'regiven the chance to to train on
it, and then they we do sometype of performance evaluation,
both in training and out in thereal world.
So I think that knowing andunderstanding that is really
(08:51):
important.
I think as a as a as the nextstep back, I guess if you will,
of what we expect out of them isthey need to have a general
understanding of what their roleand responsibility uh is as the
boss of a fire company, right?
And and so there, there's athere's an article that Bruno
wrote, I think it was in 2013,if I remember right, and where
(09:14):
he's talking about the role andresponsibility of officers and
general, you know, company andcommand officers is in first and
foremost, it's in in his words,their responsibility lies in the
fitness for duty of that companyand the people that they're that
they're working with, right?
So as a company officer, uh thefitness of duty for myself, my
(09:37):
company, and all the things thatthat we're supposed to be able
to do on a daily basis, andespecially at the in the IDLH,
what we're what are weresponsible for?
And so as Bruno did a ton, is hewas very, very good at making
very simple statements aboutroles and responsibilities or or
(09:58):
our mission, but they are soincredibly deep and there's so
much depth into what thatactually looks like.
So when we talk about fitnessfor duty, oftentimes we go to
the, you know, the the whole,you know, mentally and
physically and spirituallyprepared to actually do the
work.
And that that that does matter.
That is something, right?
But this has to do is are youprepared to actually do the work
(10:22):
from a boss and a performancestandpoint, right?
Are we ready to actually executethe things that an engine
company needs to execute fromthe front, from the beginning?
And everybody has a role and afunction in that.
And how often do we train onthat?
How often are we developingthat?
And how often we're measuringhow we do in the real world?
Part of that is the companyofficer being the initial IC,
(10:43):
but the other part of it isgetting water into the truck,
getting water out of the truck,getting us in the right
position, and then thefirefighters, you know, taking
the tools and equipment off therig, getting in the right spots,
and actually executing the work.
So all of this comes together inthis idea of fitness for duty
and what are we prepared toactually do the work that we're
(11:04):
supposed to do?
And we're not letting a lot ofthe other things that could
potentially get in the way ofthat, you know, with the the
distractions, if you will, witha lot of other elements that,
you know, uh become pervasive inour fire departments.
And so what are those things?
So I think part of what Gary andEric were talking about last
(11:25):
week was the establishment ofexpectations the last podcast,
where the establishment of theexpectations and the broader
sense is all right, are we fitfor duty?
Are we ready to go to work?
And and what does that actuallylook like?
SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Yeah, so I think we gotta I think where you just
ended there, Chris, and whatGary and Eric talked about, the
whole expectations of the wholeorganization.
So from the top down and thebottom up, is everybody on the
same page with theseexpectations, whether it's you
know, SOGs and procedures andguidelines and process as far as
(12:03):
like how do you how do you getto that position, and then the
organizational standards so thateverybody is on the same page.
But if we're not doing somethingas an organization to train
people to be in those positions,then we're not giving them
anything, which is why weoftentimes hear that uh as the
company officer, I can only beresponsible for my company.
(12:24):
It's everything I can do just tomanage, you know, my company.
And it's like, well, you whattraining have you had beyond
maybe some fire officer one andtwo classroom training?
Have you had any training onstrategies and tactics and
critical thinking and decisionmaking and and tying all of that
together?
And most of the time the answerback to that is no.
(12:45):
So yeah, people are gonna beuncomfortable.
It's that it's really theunknown, right?
It's like it's why kids arescared of the dark because it's
the unknown.
Well, firemen, fire officers,chief officers are are scared of
the unknown.
And it's our job as anorganization at the fire
department to lay outexpectations and standards and
(13:09):
then train people to that, andthen as you've said several
times already, evaluate that.
Are we performing at the levelthat we should be performing at?
And if we're not doing thosethings, then we shouldn't expect
uh we shouldn't have a bigexpectation of things are gonna
go well or as we want them to goif we haven't communicated that
to everybody.
(13:30):
But specifically the incidentstarting off with that company
officer getting there andevaluating the critical fire
ground factor standardconditions so that we take some
sort of standard action.
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
Yeah, there was a uh Chicago firefighter, fire
officer years ago that said thatpeople don't call 911 because
they want a couple of dumbassesin a pickup truck to show up.
They want a brain surgeon, anathlete, somebody who's gonna
get there and solve theirproblem.
And how how much is it importantto give that wide level view as
(14:02):
a company officer, the mission,why we're here, and and how
often do you do it?
Is it every shift?
Is it every month?
Is it a meeting?
How how do you give the peoplethe motivation and the focus for
what they need to do when itcomes to service delivery?
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
Well, I think I think one thing with that is is
we we have to train peoplebeyond be really beyond our
expectation, is is kind of myanswer to that.
If if I just want firemen to belaborers, which I that's not
what I want, we want thinkingfirefighters on the fire ground
that can engage and that theentire company works together as
(14:40):
a company and the entireresponse works together as a
response, with with you know anend result being you know, fires
out and victim removal andproperty conservation and taking
care of Ms.
Smith and all of that.
And I think far too often we wedo pretty good at that task
level.
(15:00):
This is how you do it, but wedon't spend enough time talking
about why we would do what wewould why we do what we do, and
then that next layer.
So I want I want firefighters ona fire company to know what I'm
thinking is the company officer.
It's not a secret, right?
It's it's together that wholegroup becomes a team and you're
(15:24):
gonna make better decisions andthey're gonna give you
information.
But if it's just no, your onlyjob is to force entry, and your
only job is you're the nozzleperson, and you're gonna be, you
know, the nozzle man.
And and if if you if we justkeep going down that list, then
uh we shouldn't expect differentresults.
We're just gonna keep on tryingto do the task level harder
(15:45):
instead of making betterdecisions on what we're gonna do
when we get there.
SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
So uh your question, you know, how do we do that from
in a more broad perspective?
It made me think of how TerryGarrison did it in well, and did
it in a few different places,and Houston was probably the
biggest example of that, or themost widely seen example of
that.
And and for him, it wasconsistency and message from the
(16:13):
fire chief.
And his message, well, he he hehad a uh a great perspective is
anytime he's talking to a groupof people, a group of
politicians, talking to themedia, he used that opportunity
to talk to the firefighters.
And he always had that view ofI'm going to, I'm talking to the
firefighters because they'regonna be listening to this.
(16:33):
And that consistency of messagewas everything, my job every
single day, and our job is theuh as whatever fire department
he was working in at the time,is customer service and
firefighter safety.
That's those are my two mostoverriding things that I am
concerned about.
And when the membership hearsthose two things over and over
(16:56):
and over, and I don't meannecessarily at nauseam, like
where he's beating them over thehead, but that but it's a very
consistent message is if youwant to know what we should be
thinking about, and you want toknow what I'm thinking about,
and you want to know whatactually matters to us and is
going to benefit the community,it has everything to do with
firefighters being safe in orderfor them to be actually be able
to deliver the service that theyneed to to the community.
(17:19):
So that becomes then fairlypervasive in the the chief
officer ranks and the and theand the company officer ranks
of, well, I know what the broadperspective is of the
expectations for us in doing ourjob.
Now, what is my role andresponsibility in doing those
things specifically?
(17:40):
If I'm a company officer, thatvery much has everything to do
with the standards of incidentcommand, the standards of the
task level work we're supposedto get done and how those two
interact.
And I should probably bespending a lot of time and a lot
of training and a lot of efforton making that happen, right?
And that's gonna happenorganized.
It should be happeningorganizationally.
(18:01):
There should be some formal waysthat happens.
But as a company officer,there's a whole lot of informal
opportunity for me to be able toestablish that and for us to
work on that and how we're gonnado the things that Josh was
talking about, how we're gonnado those things together.
So the other thing I thoughtabout was is what does it
actually mean to be an IC?
(18:25):
Like to actually be a whatqualifications, information, and
skills and ability do I havethat make me an effective IC?
And where does that come from inmy department?
If I come from a place of, well,we really don't have one, it's
hard for me to describe it toyou, what our what our incident
command system and standard is.
(18:46):
And but I want you to watchthese guys because they kind of
do a pretty good job at it andjust emulate them.
How serious am I should I takethat as the expectation from my
boss versus saying, no, this isour incident command standard.
You don't have to say it's theblue card standard.
You can say it's the, it's thethe the any town USA command
(19:08):
standard, but this is ourcommand standard.
This is the way we're gonna dobusiness.
And I'm gonna actually create astandard, I'm gonna train you to
that standard, I'm gonna holdyou to that standard, you're
gonna be accountable to it, andI'm gonna measure your
performance.
There's a whole lot of giveashit in that, in that
organizationally.
And that gives the people insidethe organization something to
(19:29):
strive to and strive towards.
And one of the things I talkedabout in my breakout in
Cincinnati was made thecomparison of how much training
and qualification does it taketo become a person who is
certified to install car seatsin a car as a as a firefighter
(19:49):
or Joe Blow, or what are thecertification and qualifications
that it takes to actually becomean incident commander in most
fire departments across theUnited States?
You have to do 40 hours oftraining, pay$3,000 to say
you're qualified to put in a carseat.
And I'm not and I'm notdiscounting how important
(20:12):
knowing how to put a car seatis.
In most systems, it's you haveto have passed a test and be a
good dude in order to be an IC.
Well, all right, which one do wegive a shit more about, really?
When you actually look at thatat what it is.
So we need to take that way moreseriously, in my opinion.
The fire service in general.
(20:33):
I think there's a lot ofdepartments that have uh be you
know become awake to that andare doing that, but man, let's
let's really focus on whatactually matters and make the
main thing the main thing.
That seems to be a pretty commonsaying these days.
Well, the main thing that an Ithat a that a company officer
has is the potential to be an ICand to lead their crew in the
(20:54):
work and operation in an IDLHenvironment.
So that's the stuff we shouldprobably focus on.
The expectation should becentered on.
SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
One of the things I've correlated lately, just
when it comes to preparation, ifwe're in the preparation phase
of response, is how preparedsome departments are because of
state mandates, and then thenthey they raise the level from
there versus states that have nomandates or very little
mandates.
(21:24):
And if you look at line of dutydeaths, firefighter injuries,
ineffective operations, thewhole gamut, it's those states
that don't have uh any kind ofminimum that they're enforcing.
When we go to states that have610 hours for fire one and two
as a minimum, they're a lot moreeffective.
(21:44):
I mean, guess what?
When when training's importantto you and preparation is
important to you, you're goingto do a lot better versus, hey,
let's all vote for Gus for chiefbecause he's a nice guy.
And there's a lot of departmentsout there still doing that.
We still have elected officersthat uh in some good size areas
too, that they have to run on aplatform.
(22:05):
And I've I've been to areas thatare having officer elections,
and you think they're having amayoral election because there's
actually yard signs and coastersand and buttons, and that's
where they put their energy.
And not to diss those systems,but really what qualifies that
person to be an IC or a chief orany other kind of officer if
it's just election?
And I and I do understand thatsome places do have minimum
(22:28):
qualifications to to get votedon.
It just in my view, anantiquated system.
Over to you, Josh.
What when you talk about layingout the expectations for for
people who are working for you,what how how do you go about
that and and what's your routinewith that?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
Well, I think I think first off, when somebody's
if somebody's gonna get promotedor really long before that, we
hear we hear and we see this allthe time.
Well, that was an acting companyofficer.
Well, if we're gonna talk aboutIC1 and it's gonna be and we
have acting company officers,which happens every day all over
(23:08):
this country.
Those people need to be trainedto the same level as the person
that would normally be riding inthat seat.
And, you know, what does thattime commitment look like and
how often are they in thatposition?
And how do you evaluate that?
We can't take the approach of,well, it's an acting company
officer, so we're not gonna holdthem to the same standards or
(23:28):
have the same expectations, butthey have the same job to do.
They're still the companyofficer, they're still gonna get
there if they're first due andbe responsible for those duties
in that acting position.
So we kind of have to start withthat.
Oftentimes when things don't gowell, oftentimes there are
(23:49):
acting positions or people ontrade that aren't working in
their normal company.
And you know, that that justthat just causes it to be a
little bit disjointed becauseeverybody doesn't know what
everybody else's capabilitiesare within, even within that own
within their own company, thatwe all realize that there you're
gonna have strengths andweaknesses within folks all
(24:12):
across your organization.
But the whole expectation andstandard has to start as the
organization, and then anybodywho's gonna fill that role,
regardless whether it's actingcompany officer or Joe just has
to ride in that spot todaybecause there is nobody else,
well, then they need to betrained to do that job.
And I always go back to the youdon't put an EMT riding in a
(24:35):
paramedic spot and tell themthat they're gonna do paramedic
work today if they're a basicEMT.
Well, on the fire side, at theat the company officer level and
as the division or districtchief or battalion chief
response level, people areenacting positions and they do
not have the the tools that theyneed to fulfill that position.
(24:58):
So, you know, looking looking atan organization first, right?
They that it has to be set upthat the organization is gonna
train the folks and have to meetthe expectations and to follow
all of the standards that theorganization has developed.
It's not a it's only if you'refully promoted to that position
(25:19):
because it all connects to thework.
And the work doesn't knowwhether you're really promoted
or whether you're an actingcompany officer or whether the
fire chief said, Ah, you canjust ride and charge today
because we're not payingovertime, we'll figure it out.
That that does not work.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
One of the things that Bruno talked about in that
article I referenced earlier isin the end, that when things go
uh don't go well, or there areissues, or folks are
inadequately trained, or it thethe the department's
inadequately staffed, or youdon't have enough resources to
actually do the work that you'resupposed to, that that and one
(26:02):
of the compensations for it isthey start manipulating the
target and they start changingwhat is okay.
And then they start making havebuilt-in excuses on why you're
not we're not actually doingthat.
And manipulating that target isall good as long as you know
nobody dies and there isn't, youknow, true consequences in the
(26:23):
end.
We can basically what we allstart doing is bullshitting each
other, right?
Uh about uh why that didn'twork, or it was it was a fluke
thing, or it was a surprise, oryou know, nobody could have
really predicted that.
Oh, really?
No, we can actually go into thatand look based on the standards
and based on having expectationsof what actually happened there?
(26:44):
Where did we make gooddecisions?
Where didn't we?
And what could we do as anorganization to actually improve
that?
So part of the part of the waywe get a uh part of the the the
manner in which we get away, touse Josh's example, is throwing
EMTs in paramedic positions, isto start to bullshit ourselves
(27:04):
about the the the the answerthere.
What was the actual outcome?
And and we have less of astandard because we put somebody
who wasn't unqualified in thatposition.
And we get away with it most ofthe time and and there's no real
consequence.
And then when when somethingdoes happen, then we act
surprised like it, gosh, Icouldn't believe this.
There's no way we could havepredicted this would happen.
(27:25):
No, it was actually very clearthat this, there's a potential
for this to happen.
And that was a predictablesurprise.
So I I think that recognizingwhen we start manipulating those
things, the outcomes, theanswers, the the end result, or
the why.
Well, why did this happen?
Or we we have no idea we wecouldn't have predicted that.
That's that's all that's allfake, that's all nonsense.
(27:48):
It's not that's not the reality.
And we need to keep our eye onhere is what good work looks
like, here's what we expect, andhere's what it takes to actually
do it from a trainingperspective, a resource
perspective, and then make surethat an organization is actually
providing that.
Company officer's notnecessarily in control of that,
but a company officer is incontrol of it at their level and
(28:12):
with their company, and whetherthey're being honest with
themselves and each other abouthow things are going.
So they're it all has it's allconnected, right?
And it's not necessarily allthis ethereal stuff that we're
just you know uh grasping attheories.
No, there's actually real stuffto it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:32):
With I think it was a football coach, and forgive me
if it was Bob Davy, but but heif the football coach had this
theory, next man up, and and hewanted a deep bench.
So if if if the the frontlineman got hurt, you know, the
next the next person there is todo the job.
And I always applied that towardmy job.
Like, okay, if if if Ricky isout, then who's gonna move up to
(28:55):
Ricky's role?
And what do we do to support andand get them ready to do that
job the same way that Rickywould.
So be because that captain has apart of it, the department has a
part of it as far as the overallpreparation, setting standards,
saying, no, you cannot ride thatseat until you have blue card
(29:15):
and fire officer one, or you gothrough our officer academy or
however, you know, usually acombination of those things is
really best practice.
But but to develop that bench.
And I think when I look at someorganizations, they're not
looking at that right now.
They're not they're they aresuch in crisis mode just to get
butts in the seats that they'renot thinking ahead about like,
(29:36):
okay, then what do we have to doto fill this six months from now
if this person goes off on aleave or or whatever the case
may be?
So they're not talking about it.
And then they wonder why we canonly hire chiefs from the
outside.
It's because the entireorganization never prepared the
driver to move over to the rightfront seat.
And and and that kind of appliesitself to the entire
(29:58):
organization.
I don't know if you guys haveseen that before, but the that
that I think you have to starton the company level to have
that deep bench in order for theentire organization, including
in the front office, to have adeep bench.
SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
So before I retired, there were there was some
significant stuff going oninside my organization.
And one of them was is we hadpurchased new SCBAs, right?
We had stepped into the thenewest standard, hadn't gotten
new SCBAs in, I don't know,eight, eight or so years.
So we're we're doing that.
And then at the same time wasthe city's annual what they call
(30:34):
the community service funddrive.
It's whatever.
United way, or you know,whatever charitable operation
the city had does every year.
SPEAKER_02 (30:44):
They want to take money out of your paycheck.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
To give it to so they can pay some CEO running a
non-for-profit.
That's really what it comes downto.
But which one do you think in myorganization got the most
attention from the executiveleadership?
It wasn't the equipment that wasbeing going to be used in the
IDLH environment.
It was it was we have to meetour standard as a department in
(31:10):
the city, in in this otherthing.
So you need to make sure thateverybody is participating and
doing it.
And it's not necessarily, youknow, they're they're giving
their money, but they're butthey're completing the
information.
And there was literally dailyupdates on that.
And at the same time, we'reputting uh multiple things.
(31:30):
It wasn't just the SCBA's newpiece of firefighting equipment
in service and that got noattention from the leadership.
So what what does thatcommunicate to the company
officer and what theirexpectations are and what they
should be ready to manage?
It's uh bass awkwards.
SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Well, that message, the the the silverback
leadership message, right?
The the whole where all of thatstarts is the we have to focus
on the work.
And we're there.
The reason that we are there isto provide service to Mrs.
Smith.
And, you know, and and they'reon their worst day during an
emergency or you know, whateverthey deem to be an emergency.
(32:10):
And yeah, we get we get waysidetracked on so many other
things that should that are notthe focus.
And then we end up with theacting company officer who
hasn't ridden in that spot forthree months, and somebody's on
a trade.
Well, this guy's a new driver,and he's only been in that spot
for a month and is in hisregular permanent spot.
(32:31):
And you know, the the normalfireman riding backwards is on
vacation today, and somebodyelse is in that spot.
So, you know, that theorganization has to be able, has
to support that company officerand be realistic through that
expectations and standards.
So otherwise we're we're reallywe're really setting them up for
(32:52):
failure.
SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
Let's switch gears to the chief level.
Uh we we talked quite a bitabout the company there for the
first half.
So the the chief level, responsechief, whether it's a battalion
chief, district chief, shiftcommander, however your your
system titles that person, howdo they set expectations and and
really what's the expectationsand and responsibilities of that
(33:14):
person, then how do they passthat on down the line?
SPEAKER_01 (33:18):
So to use what Josh just said, start with the work.
What are they responsible for?
They're responsible for beingthe boss of the company
officers, first and foremost.
Like they are they are theirsupervisor.
And so part of being asupervisor, any supervisory job,
you're you if you boil down allyour responsibilities, it comes
(33:41):
to two three things performance,behavior, and attendance.
Are you showing up?
Uh are we behaving appropriatelyand are we doing our jobs,
right?
And so their jobs to do that forthe company officers.
So they have to be clear on whatthe company officer role and
responsibility is, and then beable to help and facilitate them
actually executing that.
(34:02):
And then when it comes to thehazard zone, is they've got an
they've got a responsibility tohelp IC number one be prepared
to be IC number one and managetheir crew.
And and then they also need tobe prepared to be IC number two
and play their role in theposition or in the in the system
the system, right?
And so it's it's a pretty uhit's actually fairly simple when
(34:27):
we when we really start to boilthe the nonsense away.
But I I think that often thosesimple elements get overlooked.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
So one thing I think with the with the chief officer,
battalion chief, district chieflevel, you know, the day-to-day
routine, but most importantlythe when the bell rings managing
the emergency event and the andthe people working within that
response is making sure thatwell, you've communicated the
(34:57):
standard, you've communicatedthe expectations, and that there
is a standard, but with thatthat you follow the standard
yourself, right?
So you know, we hear, you know,quite often from organizations,
well, the chief let them do thisoutside of what we would
normally do because he justdidn't want to listen to what
(35:18):
they were gonna say if he didn'tlet them do it.
And it's like, well, what isthat all about?
So that that just creates a holein the system, and then you end
up with more and more holes inthe system because everybody's
gonna catch on to that, right?
Like this, if if the expectationis and the standard is this is
the way we do it, then that'show we do it.
(35:40):
And there's gonna be times whenwe do things different, but it's
not because of somebody'semotion or because somebody
wanted to do something, orbecause I, as the response
chief, don't want to deal withthe captain who's gonna run his
mouth for the next two shifts ifI don't let him do whatever this
is.
And you know, we see that on thefire ground, and we've gotten
(36:02):
plenty of feedback over the lastcouple of years of organizations
where IC number two, thestrategic IC, allowed companies
to do to make their owndecisions outside of the
incident action plan, and andthen you know, something
happens, and then they'rethey're surprised, and then they
start making the excuses of ofwhy it happened.
(36:24):
And it's like, no, you uh ifyou're gonna use a system, then
you need to use the system.
And if you're gonna do somethingthat doesn't align with the
system, then you need to be ableto justify what not just in your
own mind, emotionally justify,but of justify why you did or
didn't take the standard action.
SPEAKER_02 (36:43):
On the chief level, too, I think right now, probably
more than ever, and talking topeople who were on that uh the
battalion level and and they'retrying to coach captains, it is
a challenging environment in thefirehouse right now.
There is so much going on.
And over the last two months,I've talked to many leaders who
(37:05):
are being challenged.
And it's because of what's goingon in society, it's a
polarization out there.
Everyone around the table justwants to talk about the news.
And and yeah, I talked tosomebody yesterday, and and you
know, he said, Yeah, the firstthing in the station when I got
in this morning, they're talkingabout, you know, the the White
House is being demolished.
(37:26):
And the first thing he said is,Is that in our first due area?
Nope.
And we have work to do, guys,and uh the White House has
nothing to do with it.
So it's keeping your peoplefocused on the right things and
getting them focused on theright things and not allowing
all these other distractions tocome in and either polarize the
fire station or get peopledistracted so they're not
(37:47):
focused on the mission everyday.
And and that is very, very hardto do.
You know, another thing, a veryuh, and this is just a fitness
for duty way down the rabbithole, is actually fit for duty,
like sober, ready to go to work,you're not hung over.
There are very brave companyofficers and very brave chief
(38:08):
level officers that I've workedwith in the past that have come
in and they found somebody whowas either obviously intoxicated
on something, or they weregetting over being intoxicated
on something, or they're in themiddle of a life-changing event
and they have no business beingat work.
And to be able to pull the plugand say, you are not ready to
(38:30):
get on big red and go do yourjob today, and we need to pull
you off for one reason oranother.
Now, a lot of union contracts oruh employee manuals or however
you're you're regulated willhave a fitness for duty clause
where you can actually go andget somebody tested and make
sure that they're they're fit.
Hopefully you have that.
But I I just want to shout outto those folks who are brave
(38:52):
enough to come in and hold thatline on the standard saying, no,
you're not getting on the firetruck because of one reason or
another.
And then there could be a myriadof reasons for it because they
don't want to show up at Mrs.
Smith's house with somebody whois incapable of doing the job.
And that and that's evenphysical, too, right?
Like I've I've had guys come towork that are sick, that they
(39:14):
don't want to use a sick day.
I've I've gone into work whereguys are injured, and oh, I'll
I'll I'll I'll be able to get myglove on over this splint that's
on my partial hand, or it'slike, no, you're not.
What's gonna happen when we'rein the IDLH and you've got to
really pull out?
You're not gonna be able to doit.
I had I had a guy who was havingmajor surgery, like one of the
(39:35):
most life-changing things, andhe wanted to continue to start
keep working, and an FPAphysical does not allow you to
keep working when you're gonnahave the procedure this guy had.
So it it it takes it takes alot, I think.
And I I just want to shout outto that because you you have to
be the first one to hold peopleto those standards that they are
(39:55):
fit and ready to go.
You guys have any experiencewith that?
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Yeah, John, that I think that's a yeah, it's a it's
a hundred percent real thingthat it's it's I I compare it to
the training level still,though.
I'll take it all the way back tothat.
I mean, it's it's different ifthey're impaired physically,
can't do it, mentally, can't doit, you know, whatever.
There's an avenue to addressthat, right?
And that the organization needsto have standards and
(40:20):
expectations of how they'regonna do that and follow that
process.
Well, I link that right back tothe training because we've all
gone to work and been like, Ihope we don't get a fire in
Engine 17's area today becauseit's gonna be a problem.
Well, we should do somethingabout that.
Just like we would do somethingabout somebody's intoxicated,
somebody, you know, had surgery,somebody doesn't want to use a
(40:43):
sick day, but they, you know,can't hardly walk because their
ankles broke or whatever, thetraining, in my view, is is
really no different.
We we are not as prepared as weneed to be and should be to make
this response.
And and specifically here, we'retalking about you know, command
(41:05):
command training and theexpectations that go along with
that.
So as a response chief, ifyou're in that position where
there's an acting companyofficer or or a regular company
officer that doesn't meet theexpectation, then we can't fix
that in five minutes, but weneed to start it, right?
We need to identify, hey, thisis a there's work for us to do,
and we need to improve on, youknow, Johnny's skill set when
(41:29):
he's riding as as the companyofficer.
And far too often I think wedon't engage in that because we
don't want to hear back theflack from anybody about why did
we do what we did.
And quite frankly, it createsthis thing called work that so
many people try to avoid.
(41:49):
It's easier to turn my head andsay, I hope nothing happens over
there today, than it is to gothere and say, well, no, we're
gonna start doing some trainingtoday.
And as a company officer, samething, right?
You got somebody on your companyor that transfers into your
company that doesn't have theskills that they need to have
and meet the standards andexpectations of the
organization, then there's workto do.
(42:11):
But if we if we turn our head toit and accept it, then we
shouldn't ever be surprised whenthings don't go as we expect.
And it all comes back to we needto turn and focus on the
delivery and the work that wedo.
That that that is our number oneobjective.
We go to work, they pay us to goto work to respond to
(42:32):
emergencies and incidents.
That's why we exist.
And all the rest of it is niceto do stuff, but uh we get so
politically wrapped around thewe're gonna do all this other
political dog and pony showstuff because it looks good on
the administration or one personin the administration or
whatever.
And meanwhile, the capabilitiesof the organization is lacking
(42:58):
at best.
SPEAKER_02 (42:59):
That politics stuff that comes in.
I and I I realize the firechiefs have to do it.
Uh I I did it, but I always useda litness test is what's this
gonna do for the firefighters?
Is it gonna elevate theirstature within the organization
or whatever to get them involvedand stuff?
And there was a lot of stuff Ijust never got them involved in
because it wasn't gonna doanything for them or the
(43:20):
community.
It was just the it was allfeel-good stuff for for maybe a
couple of politicians.
So if if that was the case, wedidn't do it.
If it was gonna be somethingthat had a benefit and a return
on investment when it comes tothe time that you're going to
put in on it, then then maybe itwould be something to do.
But there's so much pressure onfire chiefs to get involved in
the in this political crap likeyou're talking about, you know,
(43:42):
whether it's, you know, the theUnited Way fun drive or any
other kind of charitable giving.
And you got to pick and choosewhat you're doing because you
only have so many hours of theday.
I I worked at an organizationwhere some of the neighboring
departments would do chili feedsand fish fries and pancake
breakfasts.
And our department wanted to dothat.
(44:03):
And it's like, why?
Well, the camaraderie.
That it's fun camaraderie stuff.
So, well, do you realize howmuch work it is to put?
I mean, number one, we don'thave a financial need for it.
Any pancake breakfast I've everbeen involved in is not enough
to fill the tank of everyapparatus on the department.
So, I mean, the the the profitthat you get off those things,
(44:23):
and then the time and energyyou're wasting on it when you
could be training and gettingother things ready to go for a
response.
So you got to look at what theoverall return is gonna be.
And I always said no.
And it's like, no, there's noreason for us to do that.
Now, sometimes, you know, we wehave some associates right now
that work with us that they'regoing through some very heavy
stuff politically in theircommunities because they're
(44:45):
looking to defund their firedepartments, where they're
changing levies or trying toeliminate levies altogether and
property taxes in some state.
I know that's big in Idaho andand uh Wyoming and Montana right
now.
And those fire departments haveto engage in that.
And and and somehow, you know,depending on how your city
charter is or how you're set up,you're you're gonna get your
(45:07):
troops involved in that too.
But that that's more of a fightfor survival politically than it
is anything else.
But you've got to pick andchoose, is my point and triage
what you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
So I I can't keep go ahead, Josh.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
The best thing that we can do with all of that
still, though, is provide andfocus on the providing the best
service that we can provide withwhat we have.
And if we if we slam on thebrakes and say, you know, we're
not happy with the politicalstance, then you're gonna get
(45:42):
even less support.
But John, I think, as you said,it it doesn't that's not it it
that doesn't engage really allof the the companies out there.
That's more of administrativeand and top level management
positions that that are gonnadeal with that.
And what we need the companiesto do is to provide the best
(46:04):
service they can possiblyprovide, but far too often that
turns into we don't have anysupport, so we're not gonna
train, we're not gonna do any ofthis other stuff.
And it's like, well, that's whyyou exist is to provide that
service and to do it the bestthat we can possibly do it, and
accepting anything less thandoing it as good as we can is
(46:28):
not acceptable.
SPEAKER_01 (46:30):
So that consistency and message is is really helps
us in that, right?
And so, like this is where Brunowas most masterful, in my
opinion, is he would only engagein political stuff that in a way
that he was representing thesafety and welfare and
(46:54):
protecting lives of thecommunity from his job as the
fire chief.
That conveyed down into themembership of oh, I have to
maintain that consistency in myview of this is what matters,
right?
So he would get involved inthings like sprinkler code, he
would get involved in thingslike emergency transportation
(47:18):
for the community, he would getinvolved in things that had a
political element that directlyimpacted the community and and
what his job andresponsibilities were as the
fire chief and the firedepartment for the community.
And and the his kryptonite everysingle time in that political
discussion was the customerservice delivery of the that in
(47:41):
our case, the city, the PhoenixFire Department was delivering
to the community.
Because anytime there waspolitical pushback, his ability
to thwart that politicalpushback was what the community
thought of the fire departmentbecause the fire department was
taking care of them.
When they showed up, they werenice to them, they took care of
their problem, and they madethem feel like they gave a shit.
(48:13):
It's not getting into thepolitics because I want to be,
you know, I'm part of themayor's team or I'm part of the
city manager's team.
That's all nonsense.
Keep it focused on what the workis of the fire department, what
the role and responsibility ofthe fire chief is.
And when you're actually reallygood at that, you really, really
(48:35):
help the battalion chiefs, youhelp the company officers stay
focused on what are the thingshere that I really need to be
worried about.
And, you know, we're alwaysgoing to have Fox News or
whatever, whatever bullshitstreaming on the TV in a
firehouse is a distraction, butthat can be turned off.
And and how the all of thebosses from the top down are
(48:57):
behaving and what they'refocusing on is is is a really
important element to fightingall the other distractions.
SPEAKER_02 (49:05):
Well, great discussion, guys, on the roles
and responsibilities.
I think we can go on forever onthe expectations of what we're
expecting out of our companyofficers and chief level
officers.
If any of you have any input orideas that you would like to
share with us, please hit us upon the email in the show notes.
Before we go, Timeless TacticalTruth.
(49:35):
Have you guys seen that video?
There's actually somebody withthe Timeless Tactical Truth.
They put it on the chip on theirsiren and their heavy rescue of
all things.
So that's that's a nice homage.
Wow.
Okay, today the Two of Hearts.
And uh this one says the IC isresponsible for all command
functions all of the time.
(49:56):
Simply, command functions definethe IC's job.
I'm gonna repeat this one moretime.
The IC is responsible for allcommand functions all the time.
Simply, command functions definethe IC's job.
We see people try to piecemealcommand functions or drop some
(50:18):
down and we're not gonna dothis.
But when they don't do them all,it doesn't really seem to work,
does it?
I mean, do you do you see thempicking and choosing and that
being a a system that ends upworking if you're not doing all
of the command functions?
And I I'm sure what Bruno'stalking about here is the
A-functions of command, right?
SPEAKER_01 (50:36):
So so so he eloquently is saying an IC
should know and be responsiblefor their job.
Okay.
What is it?
And when we start picking andchoosing what it is that we like
about a system and process, andI'm only gonna do these, and I'm
not gonna do these because Ithink they're dumb or they're
hard, or they're, you know, it'sit doesn't uh there's not a lot
(50:59):
of self-actualization tied to meperforming that.
That becomes a problem.
It's a standard and a processfor a reason.
It's standard and a process toget us to an to an end result.
And in this case, it's achievingthe tactical objectives all
clear, under control, and a lossstopped, right?
And so that's the work we'resupposed to do.
(51:21):
And the the most effective bestpractice at it is utilizing
those those components of it toget there.
So my question would be is howdo you manage effectiveness and
how do you manage performance ifyou don't have a clear standard
to actually get us there?
And the ICs aren't actually goodat at executing that.
(51:44):
So it uh I I guess you don't gettoo many uh commercial airline
pilots saying, well, I'm gonna,I'm gonna do this part of my
job.
I don't really, I'm not gonnamess with this other stuff
because that's never reallyimportant.
It's never, it's never reallymattered to me.
And and so I'll just do what I'mwhat I want or what I'm
comfortable with.
(52:04):
Yeah, that's that's that's not agood thing for for them and the
safety of passengers and allthat other stuff.
And that's that's why the systemdoesn't allow them to do that.
I don't know why the fireservice allows us to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (52:16):
What we do is nothing that we do is by
ourselves.
So that so when we don't have asystem, which in this case, you
know, talking about you know,fire command, blue card, the
eight functions of command, andand the and the strategic
decision-making model, so thatwe can walk through that process
and continue to revisit everyone of those functions
(52:36):
throughout the entire incident.
If we do that, and everybodyelse that's on the fire ground
that's a that's that'soperating, including the
firefighters, have some sort ofan inkling of the process
because that's how theorganization is trained and
that's how the fire chief hasrolled out and said, This is the
expectation and this is whatwe're going to do, that's how we
(52:57):
end up with that end result.
But, you know, far too often wekind of started with it, Chris.
I think you said it.
You if you ask a firedepartment, what's your incident
command system?
We do ICS, and it's like, well,what is that?
And they can't tell you onecomponent of it besides, you
know, somebody's in command.
And it's like, well, what doesthat even mean?
And all of those things are justwords unless you actually have a
(53:21):
system and process, and you'vetrained everybody on that system
and process, and then you know,a a huge component of is this
working?
And if it's not working, is itthe system that's broke, or are
we not using the systemappropriately?
And most often we find with thatthe system's not broke, it's we
(53:43):
we did not train people to usethe system the way that it's
designed to be used.
So yeah, the A-function is acommand.
It's it's the it's the playbook,if you will, of managing,
organizing the fire ground.
And I think I think it says theIC is responsible for.
(54:05):
Well, that doesn't mean thatthey have to do it, that just
means they're responsible forit.
So that's where you know thatdelegation piece of who's gonna
fill out these other roles tomake sure that all these things
happen.
So, you know, if you expanded anincident out and had multiple
divisions and a support officerand a senior advisor and build
out a whole command team and allof that, well, you're gonna work
through all eight functions ofcommand continually, and
(54:28):
multiple people are gonna begoing through multiple different
parts of that eight functions ofcommand until the final
resolution of law stopped andand you know, primary all clears
of of all victims removed andproperty conservation.
So it it it is a system.
SPEAKER_01 (54:48):
You know, I don't I really don't believe in gravity.
So I'm really not gonna accountfor it on the fire ground,
right?
And and I don't believe in it,right?
So I it's really not a thing.
But when the bit when I havestructural collapse or when I
(55:08):
have you know uh other thingsthat are very much the cause of
gravity, I then that that givesme license to act surprised that
it happened.
And like I couldn't possiblybelieve that that that could
have occurred, right?
Because I just didn't believe init.
Well uh that's the way webehave.
That's the way we act a lot oftimes when when we're not using
(55:31):
a system and a standard and aprocess, and nobody has the
specific incident action plan,nobody knows how we get there,
and and we're just doingwhatever it is that we feel like
doing on the fire ground, andthen we have a problem, and
that's kind of the way we'reacting a lot of times as a as a
fire service.
So I don't quite I don't quiteget all that.
SPEAKER_02 (55:51):
A wonderful discussion, guys.
I I appreciate you both beinghere today and being a part of
the B Shifter Podcast, and thatabout does it for us.
Until next time, thanks so muchfor listening.
Make sure to subscribe and uhtell your friends to listen to
the B Shifter Podcast.
We'll talk to you next week.
Welcome to the B Shifter Podcast.
Today, got John Vance, ChrisStewart, and Josh Bloom.
And we'll be talking about theresponsibilities and
expectations of company officersand responsibilities of response
chiefs as well, and sort oftheir fitness for duty level.
(01:07):
And it's going to be a follow-upto last week's podcast where uh
we had Gary and Eric heretalking about first do now own
it, which was really theresponsibilities of that first
due company officer.
But we wanted to delve deep andinto really what the
expectations should be of boththat first due company officer
who's going to arrive as ICnumber one, and then IC number
(01:30):
two as a response chief.
But before we get into that,let's check in with the guys.
Chris, how are you doing?
I'm swell.
Thank you very much.
It's good to see you.
It's been been a little bitsince we last hung out.
SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
I'm glad you're back here in the beautiful I'm happy
to be here too.
World headquarters of Blue Card.
SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
And from Cincinnati, we've got uh Josh.
Josh, how are you doing today?
SPEAKER_00 (01:49):
I'm good.
I'm all good.
Wintertime's just around thecorner, sweatshirt weather,
college football's on on theweekends.
It's yeah, fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
We have a lot of classes filling up right now,
too.
What do we what do we have goingfor the rest of this year?
And then what's the outlooklooking like for next year with
our activity level?
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Yeah, so we got I think there's uh four or five
seats in the November train thetrainer class in Phoenix.
Other than that, everyeverything else we got for the
rest of the year is full.
So we got uh big box class upthere in Minnesota and you're in
Hennepin County or yourneighboring county up there
somewhere.
We got a Mayday workshop inKernersville.
(02:29):
They're this week they're inMassachusetts and Central County
uh Missouri for trainers.
Next week they're at Athens,Clark County, Georgia for a
trainer.
We're assisting several firedepartments that are just coming
online with some cert labsbetween now and the end of the
year.
And then next year's schedule ispretty filled up through May.
(02:53):
We got some we got some spotswhere we can plug people in in
those first five months.
But uh if you go to ourcalendar, you can see that we
got four or five events everymonth scheduled already through
April anyway.
So if you're looking to do atrainer, some kind of workshop,
Mayday, big box, division ops,critical thinking, the safety
(03:15):
train a trainer, any of that,reach out and we'll work to get
you plugged into the schedule.
But schedule is definitelyfilling up for for next year.
SPEAKER_01 (03:27):
Well, and we we've got the ARF train the trainer
also here in the in Phoenix inDecember.
And I think that's over halffull now, if I remember right,
for for those folks.
And and we've been getting a lotof interest from other
departments and other airports,both in the US and Canada.
So hopefully we we have thatfull pretty soon and looking
(03:50):
forward to delivering those andthen kind of planning out that
calendar for 2026 with you knowa lot of the requests that are
coming in for us, you know, totake that on the road now.
SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Make sure to hit up b shifter.com if you want to
look at all those dates and allthe other opportunities to
learn.
We've we've got it all there foryou.
And we also have on there theNFPA.
Well, we're doing it uh ifyou're if you're listening uh
before the 28th, we have a livewebinar coming up on NFPA 1700
(04:22):
and its impact on incidentcommanders and what the ICs
should be looking at as far asyou know being compliant.
I are are we calling itcompliance, Chris, or where are
we looking at just trying tofollow it as a guideline?
What give us a preview of whatthat webinar is going to
discuss?
SPEAKER_01 (04:38):
Yeah, I think the technical term they use is a
guide.
It's a structural firefightingguide.
So somebody had asked actuallythe question at the conference,
you know, is this going to be asrigid as a 921 has become with
regards to fire investigationand and those elements?
And I don't necessarily see thatbecause it doesn't it's not
prescriptive.
(04:58):
It's not saying, all right, uhat this building type with these
conditions, this is what youshould do.
It's here are all theconsiderations you need to have
when looking at either buildingtypes or specific tactics, or
now there's there's a chapterthat you know what previous was
not previously in 1700 that haseverything to do with search and
(05:19):
rescue and life safety.
So these are considerations andrecommendations for some best
practice.
I think it's absolutely worthknowing and understanding, and
and and it's a very much youknow universally needed
document.
But I don't know that it's gonnabe, you know, it's not as rigid
(05:42):
as I think maybe some of thefire service would like, right?
It's it's about considerations,it's about critical thinking,
it's about being able toevaluate what actually is going
on and what it actually means onthe fire ground.
So I I uh I look forward toactually talking about it uh
next week.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
And if you would like to sign up and join us
live, you can either go to the BShifter Buck Slip.
There's a sign up there, go toany of our social medias, and we
will also include in the shownotes on this podcast where you
can sign up and and participatelive.
Part of participating live inour webinars is really an
opportunity for you to interactwith us, ask questions.
(06:19):
But if you can't join us live,you can always get it on demand.
So all you have to do is sign upas soon as the webinar is
completed.
We'll send you a link to thevideo and you can watch it at
your leisure then after that.
So today's uh topic, we'll we'llhop into it, is talking about uh
expectations andresponsibilities.
And let's start off with thecompany officers because they
(06:40):
are the ones that really startoff our response.
And when you're outlining uh andwe're gonna keep this more on a
broad spectrum, I think, just uhan overall uh what you should be
expecting from the fire chief ondown out of people who play
these roles.
So let's let's start with thecompany officer and start
talking about their expectationswhen it comes to response.
SPEAKER_01 (07:02):
Yeah, well, I I think I think Gary and Eric did
a really nice job of kind ofoutlining the perspective of and
and they inside theirdepartments kind of had to make
some operational changes withwhat is expected of initial
arriving company officers.
And and they use the blue cardsystem to kind of help them be
(07:24):
able to do that inside theirorganizations and their, you
know, geographically verydifferent organizations, one
from the East Coast, one fromthe West Coast, but they
functionally and operationallywork way closer and more
similarly than maybe they wouldeven ever give credit to because
of that same expectation.
(07:45):
So in making that, they had tolay out clear expectations.
This is what we want our compcommand or excuse me, our
company officers as initialarrivers at an incident to be
able to do.
And and what is it, what isexpected?
What is your role going to bewhen you arrive?
And it's very clear the role isyou are going to be the initial
(08:07):
incident commander.
And that means you areresponsible for the actions, the
evaluation, and the the workthat happens at that incident,
right?
And that seems very overwhelmingand very uh daunting to folks
who have never done it before,but it absolutely is a trainable
skill.
It's a, it's a, it's somethingthat that uh over time, when we
(08:30):
develop, we turn folks, everydaycompany officers into pretty
effective incident commanderswhen when they know what they're
supposed to do, when they'regiven the chance to to train on
it, and then they we do sometype of performance evaluation,
both in training and out in thereal world.
So I think that knowing andunderstanding that is really
(08:51):
important.
I think as a as a as the nextstep back, I guess if you will,
of what we expect out of them isthey need to have a general
understanding of what their roleand responsibility uh is as the
boss of a fire company, right?
And and so there, there's athere's an article that Bruno
wrote, I think it was in 2013,if I remember right, and where
(09:14):
he's talking about the role andresponsibility of officers and
general, you know, company andcommand officers is in first and
foremost, it's in in his words,their responsibility lies in the
fitness for duty of that companyand the people that they're that
they're working with, right?
So as a company officer, uh thefitness of duty for myself, my
(09:37):
company, and all the things thatthat we're supposed to be able
to do on a daily basis, andespecially at the in the IDLH,
what we're what are weresponsible for?
And so as Bruno did a ton, is hewas very, very good at making
very simple statements aboutroles and responsibilities or or
(09:58):
our mission, but they are soincredibly deep and there's so
much depth into what thatactually looks like.
So when we talk about fitnessfor duty, oftentimes we go to
the, you know, the the whole,you know, mentally and
physically and spirituallyprepared to actually do the
work.
And that that that does matter.
That is something, right?
But this has to do is are youprepared to actually do the work
(10:22):
from a boss and a performancestandpoint, right?
Are we ready to actually executethe things that an engine
company needs to execute fromthe front, from the beginning?
And everybody has a role and afunction in that.
And how often do we train onthat?
How often are we developingthat?
And how often we're measuringhow we do in the real world?
Part of that is the companyofficer being the initial IC,
(10:43):
but the other part of it isgetting water into the truck,
getting water out of the truck,getting us in the right
position, and then thefirefighters, you know, taking
the tools and equipment off therig, getting in the right spots,
and actually executing the work.
So all of this comes together inthis idea of fitness for duty
and what are we prepared toactually do the work that we're
(11:04):
supposed to do?
And we're not letting a lot ofthe other things that could
potentially get in the way ofthat, you know, with the the
distractions, if you will, witha lot of other elements that,
you know, uh become pervasive inour fire departments.
And so what are those things?
So I think part of what Gary andEric were talking about last
(11:25):
week was the establishment ofexpectations the last podcast,
where the establishment of theexpectations and the broader
sense is all right, are we fitfor duty?
Are we ready to go to work?
And and what does that actuallylook like?
SPEAKER_00 (11:40):
Yeah, so I think we gotta I think where you just
ended there, Chris, and whatGary and Eric talked about, the
whole expectations of the wholeorganization.
So from the top down and thebottom up, is everybody on the
same page with theseexpectations, whether it's you
know, SOGs and procedures andguidelines and process as far as
(12:03):
like how do you how do you getto that position, and then the
organizational standards so thateverybody is on the same page.
But if we're not doing somethingas an organization to train
people to be in those positions,then we're not giving them
anything, which is why weoftentimes hear that uh as the
company officer, I can only beresponsible for my company.
(12:24):
It's everything I can do just tomanage, you know, my company.
And it's like, well, you whattraining have you had beyond
maybe some fire officer one andtwo classroom training?
Have you had any training onstrategies and tactics and
critical thinking and decisionmaking and and tying all of that
together?
And most of the time the answerback to that is no.
(12:45):
So yeah, people are gonna beuncomfortable.
It's that it's really theunknown, right?
It's like it's why kids arescared of the dark because it's
the unknown.
Well, firemen, fire officers,chief officers are are scared of
the unknown.
And it's our job as anorganization at the fire
department to lay outexpectations and standards and
(13:09):
then train people to that, andthen as you've said several
times already, evaluate that.
Are we performing at the levelthat we should be performing at?
And if we're not doing thosethings, then we shouldn't expect
uh we shouldn't have a bigexpectation of things are gonna
go well or as we want them to goif we haven't communicated that
to everybody.
(13:30):
But specifically the incidentstarting off with that company
officer getting there andevaluating the critical fire
ground factor standardconditions so that we take some
sort of standard action.
SPEAKER_02 (13:41):
Yeah, there was a uh Chicago firefighter, fire
officer years ago that said thatpeople don't call 911 because
they want a couple of dumbassesin a pickup truck to show up.
They want a brain surgeon, anathlete, somebody who's gonna
get there and solve theirproblem.
And how how much is it importantto give that wide level view as
(14:02):
a company officer, the mission,why we're here, and and how
often do you do it?
Is it every shift?
Is it every month?
Is it a meeting?
How how do you give the peoplethe motivation and the focus for
what they need to do when itcomes to service delivery?
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
Well, I think I think one thing with that is is
we we have to train peoplebeyond be really beyond our
expectation, is is kind of myanswer to that.
If if I just want firemen to belaborers, which I that's not
what I want, we want thinkingfirefighters on the fire ground
that can engage and that theentire company works together as
(14:40):
a company and the entireresponse works together as a
response, with with you know anend result being you know, fires
out and victim removal andproperty conservation and taking
care of Ms.
Smith and all of that.
And I think far too often we wedo pretty good at that task
level.
(15:00):
This is how you do it, but wedon't spend enough time talking
about why we would do what wewould why we do what we do, and
then that next layer.
So I want I want firefighters ona fire company to know what I'm
thinking is the company officer.
It's not a secret, right?
It's it's together that wholegroup becomes a team and you're
(15:24):
gonna make better decisions andthey're gonna give you
information.
But if it's just no, your onlyjob is to force entry, and your
only job is you're the nozzleperson, and you're gonna be, you
know, the nozzle man.
And and if if you if we justkeep going down that list, then
uh we shouldn't expect differentresults.
We're just gonna keep on tryingto do the task level harder
(15:45):
instead of making betterdecisions on what we're gonna do
when we get there.
SPEAKER_01 (15:52):
So uh your question, you know, how do we do that from
in a more broad perspective?
It made me think of how TerryGarrison did it in well, and did
it in a few different places,and Houston was probably the
biggest example of that, or themost widely seen example of
that.
And and for him, it wasconsistency and message from the
(16:13):
fire chief.
And his message, well, he he hehad a uh a great perspective is
anytime he's talking to a groupof people, a group of
politicians, talking to themedia, he used that opportunity
to talk to the firefighters.
And he always had that view ofI'm going to, I'm talking to the
firefighters because they'regonna be listening to this.
(16:33):
And that consistency of messagewas everything, my job every
single day, and our job is theuh as whatever fire department
he was working in at the time,is customer service and
firefighter safety.
That's those are my two mostoverriding things that I am
concerned about.
And when the membership hearsthose two things over and over
(16:56):
and over, and I don't meannecessarily at nauseam, like
where he's beating them over thehead, but that but it's a very
consistent message is if youwant to know what we should be
thinking about, and you want toknow what I'm thinking about,
and you want to know whatactually matters to us and is
going to benefit the community,it has everything to do with
firefighters being safe in orderfor them to be actually be able
to deliver the service that theyneed to to the community.
(17:19):
So that becomes then fairlypervasive in the the chief
officer ranks and the and theand the company officer ranks
of, well, I know what the broadperspective is of the
expectations for us in doing ourjob.
Now, what is my role andresponsibility in doing those
things specifically?
(17:40):
If I'm a company officer, thatvery much has everything to do
with the standards of incidentcommand, the standards of the
task level work we're supposedto get done and how those two
interact.
And I should probably bespending a lot of time and a lot
of training and a lot of efforton making that happen, right?
And that's gonna happenorganized.
It should be happeningorganizationally.
(18:01):
There should be some formal waysthat happens.
But as a company officer,there's a whole lot of informal
opportunity for me to be able toestablish that and for us to
work on that and how we're gonnado the things that Josh was
talking about, how we're gonnado those things together.
So the other thing I thoughtabout was is what does it
actually mean to be an IC?
(18:25):
Like to actually be a whatqualifications, information, and
skills and ability do I havethat make me an effective IC?
And where does that come from inmy department?
If I come from a place of, well,we really don't have one, it's
hard for me to describe it toyou, what our what our incident
command system and standard is.
(18:46):
And but I want you to watchthese guys because they kind of
do a pretty good job at it andjust emulate them.
How serious am I should I takethat as the expectation from my
boss versus saying, no, this isour incident command standard.
You don't have to say it's theblue card standard.
You can say it's the, it's thethe the any town USA command
(19:08):
standard, but this is ourcommand standard.
This is the way we're gonna dobusiness.
And I'm gonna actually create astandard, I'm gonna train you to
that standard, I'm gonna holdyou to that standard, you're
gonna be accountable to it, andI'm gonna measure your
performance.
There's a whole lot of giveashit in that, in that
organizationally.
And that gives the people insidethe organization something to
(19:29):
strive to and strive towards.
And one of the things I talkedabout in my breakout in
Cincinnati was made thecomparison of how much training
and qualification does it taketo become a person who is
certified to install car seatsin a car as a as a firefighter
(19:49):
or Joe Blow, or what are thecertification and qualifications
that it takes to actually becomean incident commander in most
fire departments across theUnited States?
You have to do 40 hours oftraining, pay$3,000 to say
you're qualified to put in a carseat.
And I'm not and I'm notdiscounting how important
(20:12):
knowing how to put a car seatis.
In most systems, it's you haveto have passed a test and be a
good dude in order to be an IC.
Well, all right, which one do wegive a shit more about, really?
When you actually look at thatat what it is.
So we need to take that way moreseriously, in my opinion.
The fire service in general.
(20:33):
I think there's a lot ofdepartments that have uh be you
know become awake to that andare doing that, but man, let's
let's really focus on whatactually matters and make the
main thing the main thing.
That seems to be a pretty commonsaying these days.
Well, the main thing that an Ithat a that a company officer
has is the potential to be an ICand to lead their crew in the
(20:54):
work and operation in an IDLHenvironment.
So that's the stuff we shouldprobably focus on.
The expectation should becentered on.
SPEAKER_02 (21:03):
One of the things I've correlated lately, just
when it comes to preparation, ifwe're in the preparation phase
of response, is how preparedsome departments are because of
state mandates, and then thenthey they raise the level from
there versus states that have nomandates or very little
mandates.
(21:24):
And if you look at line of dutydeaths, firefighter injuries,
ineffective operations, thewhole gamut, it's those states
that don't have uh any kind ofminimum that they're enforcing.
When we go to states that have610 hours for fire one and two
as a minimum, they're a lot moreeffective.
(21:44):
I mean, guess what?
When when training's importantto you and preparation is
important to you, you're goingto do a lot better versus, hey,
let's all vote for Gus for chiefbecause he's a nice guy.
And there's a lot of departmentsout there still doing that.
We still have elected officersthat uh in some good size areas
too, that they have to run on aplatform.
(22:05):
And I've I've been to areas thatare having officer elections,
and you think they're having amayoral election because there's
actually yard signs and coastersand and buttons, and that's
where they put their energy.
And not to diss those systems,but really what qualifies that
person to be an IC or a chief orany other kind of officer if
it's just election?
And I and I do understand thatsome places do have minimum
(22:28):
qualifications to to get votedon.
It just in my view, anantiquated system.
Over to you, Josh.
What when you talk about layingout the expectations for for
people who are working for you,what how how do you go about
that and and what's your routinewith that?
SPEAKER_00 (22:46):
Well, I think I think first off, when somebody's
if somebody's gonna get promotedor really long before that, we
hear we hear and we see this allthe time.
Well, that was an acting companyofficer.
Well, if we're gonna talk aboutIC1 and it's gonna be and we
have acting company officers,which happens every day all over
(23:08):
this country.
Those people need to be trainedto the same level as the person
that would normally be riding inthat seat.
And, you know, what does thattime commitment look like and
how often are they in thatposition?
And how do you evaluate that?
We can't take the approach of,well, it's an acting company
officer, so we're not gonna holdthem to the same standards or
(23:28):
have the same expectations, butthey have the same job to do.
They're still the companyofficer, they're still gonna get
there if they're first due andbe responsible for those duties
in that acting position.
So we kind of have to start withthat.
Oftentimes when things don't gowell, oftentimes there are
(23:49):
acting positions or people ontrade that aren't working in
their normal company.
And you know, that that justthat just causes it to be a
little bit disjointed becauseeverybody doesn't know what
everybody else's capabilitiesare within, even within that own
within their own company, thatwe all realize that there you're
gonna have strengths andweaknesses within folks all
(24:12):
across your organization.
But the whole expectation andstandard has to start as the
organization, and then anybodywho's gonna fill that role,
regardless whether it's actingcompany officer or Joe just has
to ride in that spot todaybecause there is nobody else,
well, then they need to betrained to do that job.
And I always go back to the youdon't put an EMT riding in a
(24:35):
paramedic spot and tell themthat they're gonna do paramedic
work today if they're a basicEMT.
Well, on the fire side, at theat the company officer level and
as the division or districtchief or battalion chief
response level, people areenacting positions and they do
not have the the tools that theyneed to fulfill that position.
(24:58):
So, you know, looking looking atan organization first, right?
They that it has to be set upthat the organization is gonna
train the folks and have to meetthe expectations and to follow
all of the standards that theorganization has developed.
It's not a it's only if you'refully promoted to that position
(25:19):
because it all connects to thework.
And the work doesn't knowwhether you're really promoted
or whether you're an actingcompany officer or whether the
fire chief said, Ah, you canjust ride and charge today
because we're not payingovertime, we'll figure it out.
That that does not work.
SPEAKER_01 (25:38):
One of the things that Bruno talked about in that
article I referenced earlier isin the end, that when things go
uh don't go well, or there areissues, or folks are
inadequately trained, or it thethe the department's
inadequately staffed, or youdon't have enough resources to
actually do the work that you'resupposed to, that that and one
(26:02):
of the compensations for it isthey start manipulating the
target and they start changingwhat is okay.
And then they start making havebuilt-in excuses on why you're
not we're not actually doingthat.
And manipulating that target isall good as long as you know
nobody dies and there isn't, youknow, true consequences in the
(26:23):
end.
We can basically what we allstart doing is bullshitting each
other, right?
Uh about uh why that didn'twork, or it was it was a fluke
thing, or it was a surprise, oryou know, nobody could have
really predicted that.
Oh, really?
No, we can actually go into thatand look based on the standards
and based on having expectationsof what actually happened there?
(26:44):
Where did we make gooddecisions?
Where didn't we?
And what could we do as anorganization to actually improve
that?
So part of the part of the waywe get a uh part of the the the
manner in which we get away, touse Josh's example, is throwing
EMTs in paramedic positions, isto start to bullshit ourselves
(27:04):
about the the the the answerthere.
What was the actual outcome?
And and we have less of astandard because we put somebody
who wasn't unqualified in thatposition.
And we get away with it most ofthe time and and there's no real
consequence.
And then when when somethingdoes happen, then we act
surprised like it, gosh, Icouldn't believe this.
There's no way we could havepredicted this would happen.
(27:25):
No, it was actually very clearthat this, there's a potential
for this to happen.
And that was a predictablesurprise.
So I I think that recognizingwhen we start manipulating those
things, the outcomes, theanswers, the the end result, or
the why.
Well, why did this happen?
Or we we have no idea we wecouldn't have predicted that.
That's that's all that's allfake, that's all nonsense.
(27:48):
It's not that's not the reality.
And we need to keep our eye onhere is what good work looks
like, here's what we expect, andhere's what it takes to actually
do it from a trainingperspective, a resource
perspective, and then make surethat an organization is actually
providing that.
Company officer's notnecessarily in control of that,
but a company officer is incontrol of it at their level and
(28:12):
with their company, and whetherthey're being honest with
themselves and each other abouthow things are going.
So they're it all has it's allconnected, right?
And it's not necessarily allthis ethereal stuff that we're
just you know uh grasping attheories.
No, there's actually real stuffto it.
SPEAKER_02 (28:32):
With I think it was a football coach, and forgive me
if it was Bob Davy, but but heif the football coach had this
theory, next man up, and and hewanted a deep bench.
So if if if the the frontlineman got hurt, you know, the
next the next person there is todo the job.
And I always applied that towardmy job.
Like, okay, if if if Ricky isout, then who's gonna move up to
(28:55):
Ricky's role?
And what do we do to support andand get them ready to do that
job the same way that Rickywould.
So be because that captain has apart of it, the department has a
part of it as far as the overallpreparation, setting standards,
saying, no, you cannot ride thatseat until you have blue card
(29:15):
and fire officer one, or you gothrough our officer academy or
however, you know, usually acombination of those things is
really best practice.
But but to develop that bench.
And I think when I look at someorganizations, they're not
looking at that right now.
They're not they're they aresuch in crisis mode just to get
butts in the seats that they'renot thinking ahead about like,
(29:36):
okay, then what do we have to doto fill this six months from now
if this person goes off on aleave or or whatever the case
may be?
So they're not talking about it.
And then they wonder why we canonly hire chiefs from the
outside.
It's because the entireorganization never prepared the
driver to move over to the rightfront seat.
And and and that kind of appliesitself to the entire
(29:58):
organization.
I don't know if you guys haveseen that before, but the that
that I think you have to starton the company level to have
that deep bench in order for theentire organization, including
in the front office, to have adeep bench.
SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
So before I retired, there were there was some
significant stuff going oninside my organization.
And one of them was is we hadpurchased new SCBAs, right?
We had stepped into the thenewest standard, hadn't gotten
new SCBAs in, I don't know,eight, eight or so years.
So we're we're doing that.
And then at the same time wasthe city's annual what they call
(30:34):
the community service funddrive.
It's whatever.
United way, or you know,whatever charitable operation
the city had does every year.
SPEAKER_02 (30:44):
They want to take money out of your paycheck.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
To give it to so they can pay some CEO running a
non-for-profit.
That's really what it comes downto.
But which one do you think in myorganization got the most
attention from the executiveleadership?
It wasn't the equipment that wasbeing going to be used in the
IDLH environment.
It was it was we have to meetour standard as a department in
(31:10):
the city, in in this otherthing.
So you need to make sure thateverybody is participating and
doing it.
And it's not necessarily, youknow, they're they're giving
their money, but they're butthey're completing the
information.
And there was literally dailyupdates on that.
And at the same time, we'reputting uh multiple things.
(31:30):
It wasn't just the SCBA's newpiece of firefighting equipment
in service and that got noattention from the leadership.
So what what does thatcommunicate to the company
officer and what theirexpectations are and what they
should be ready to manage?
It's uh bass awkwards.
SPEAKER_00 (31:49):
Well, that message, the the the silverback
leadership message, right?
The the whole where all of thatstarts is the we have to focus
on the work.
And we're there.
The reason that we are there isto provide service to Mrs.
Smith.
And, you know, and and they'reon their worst day during an
emergency or you know, whateverthey deem to be an emergency.
(32:10):
And yeah, we get we get waysidetracked on so many other
things that should that are notthe focus.
And then we end up with theacting company officer who
hasn't ridden in that spot forthree months, and somebody's on
a trade.
Well, this guy's a new driver,and he's only been in that spot
for a month and is in hisregular permanent spot.
(32:31):
And you know, the the normalfireman riding backwards is on
vacation today, and somebodyelse is in that spot.
So, you know, that theorganization has to be able, has
to support that company officerand be realistic through that
expectations and standards.
So otherwise we're we're reallywe're really setting them up for
(32:52):
failure.
SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
Let's switch gears to the chief level.
Uh we we talked quite a bitabout the company there for the
first half.
So the the chief level, responsechief, whether it's a battalion
chief, district chief, shiftcommander, however your your
system titles that person, howdo they set expectations and and
really what's the expectationsand and responsibilities of that
(33:14):
person, then how do they passthat on down the line?
SPEAKER_01 (33:18):
So to use what Josh just said, start with the work.
What are they responsible for?
They're responsible for beingthe boss of the company
officers, first and foremost.
Like they are they are theirsupervisor.
And so part of being asupervisor, any supervisory job,
you're you if you boil down allyour responsibilities, it comes
(33:41):
to two three things performance,behavior, and attendance.
Are you showing up?
Uh are we behaving appropriatelyand are we doing our jobs,
right?
And so their jobs to do that forthe company officers.
So they have to be clear on whatthe company officer role and
responsibility is, and then beable to help and facilitate them
actually executing that.
(34:02):
And then when it comes to thehazard zone, is they've got an
they've got a responsibility tohelp IC number one be prepared
to be IC number one and managetheir crew.
And and then they also need tobe prepared to be IC number two
and play their role in theposition or in the in the system
the system, right?
And so it's it's a pretty uhit's actually fairly simple when
(34:27):
we when we really start to boilthe the nonsense away.
But I I think that often thosesimple elements get overlooked.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
So one thing I think with the with the chief officer,
battalion chief, district chieflevel, you know, the day-to-day
routine, but most importantlythe when the bell rings managing
the emergency event and the andthe people working within that
response is making sure thatwell, you've communicated the
(34:57):
standard, you've communicatedthe expectations, and that there
is a standard, but with thatthat you follow the standard
yourself, right?
So you know, we hear, you know,quite often from organizations,
well, the chief let them do thisoutside of what we would
normally do because he justdidn't want to listen to what
(35:18):
they were gonna say if he didn'tlet them do it.
And it's like, well, what isthat all about?
So that that just creates a holein the system, and then you end
up with more and more holes inthe system because everybody's
gonna catch on to that, right?
Like this, if if the expectationis and the standard is this is
the way we do it, then that'show we do it.
(35:40):
And there's gonna be times whenwe do things different, but it's
not because of somebody'semotion or because somebody
wanted to do something, orbecause I, as the response
chief, don't want to deal withthe captain who's gonna run his
mouth for the next two shifts ifI don't let him do whatever this
is.
And you know, we see that on thefire ground, and we've gotten
(36:02):
plenty of feedback over the lastcouple of years of organizations
where IC number two, thestrategic IC, allowed companies
to do to make their owndecisions outside of the
incident action plan, and andthen you know, something
happens, and then they'rethey're surprised, and then they
start making the excuses of ofwhy it happened.
(36:24):
And it's like, no, you uh ifyou're gonna use a system, then
you need to use the system.
And if you're gonna do somethingthat doesn't align with the
system, then you need to be ableto justify what not just in your
own mind, emotionally justify,but of justify why you did or
didn't take the standard action.
SPEAKER_02 (36:43):
On the chief level, too, I think right now, probably
more than ever, and talking topeople who were on that uh the
battalion level and and they'retrying to coach captains, it is
a challenging environment in thefirehouse right now.
There is so much going on.
And over the last two months,I've talked to many leaders who
(37:05):
are being challenged.
And it's because of what's goingon in society, it's a
polarization out there.
Everyone around the table justwants to talk about the news.
And and yeah, I talked tosomebody yesterday, and and you
know, he said, Yeah, the firstthing in the station when I got
in this morning, they're talkingabout, you know, the the White
House is being demolished.
(37:26):
And the first thing he said is,Is that in our first due area?
Nope.
And we have work to do, guys,and uh the White House has
nothing to do with it.
So it's keeping your peoplefocused on the right things and
getting them focused on theright things and not allowing
all these other distractions tocome in and either polarize the
fire station or get peopledistracted so they're not
(37:47):
focused on the mission everyday.
And and that is very, very hardto do.
You know, another thing, a veryuh, and this is just a fitness
for duty way down the rabbithole, is actually fit for duty,
like sober, ready to go to work,you're not hung over.
There are very brave companyofficers and very brave chief
(38:08):
level officers that I've workedwith in the past that have come
in and they found somebody whowas either obviously intoxicated
on something, or they weregetting over being intoxicated
on something, or they're in themiddle of a life-changing event
and they have no business beingat work.
And to be able to pull the plugand say, you are not ready to
(38:30):
get on big red and go do yourjob today, and we need to pull
you off for one reason oranother.
Now, a lot of union contracts oruh employee manuals or however
you're you're regulated willhave a fitness for duty clause
where you can actually go andget somebody tested and make
sure that they're they're fit.
Hopefully you have that.
But I I just want to shout outto those folks who are brave
(38:52):
enough to come in and hold thatline on the standard saying, no,
you're not getting on the firetruck because of one reason or
another.
And then there could be a myriadof reasons for it because they
don't want to show up at Mrs.
Smith's house with somebody whois incapable of doing the job.
And that and that's evenphysical, too, right?
Like I've I've had guys come towork that are sick, that they
(39:14):
don't want to use a sick day.
I've I've gone into work whereguys are injured, and oh, I'll
I'll I'll I'll be able to get myglove on over this splint that's
on my partial hand, or it'slike, no, you're not.
What's gonna happen when we'rein the IDLH and you've got to
really pull out?
You're not gonna be able to doit.
I had I had a guy who was havingmajor surgery, like one of the
(39:35):
most life-changing things, andhe wanted to continue to start
keep working, and an FPAphysical does not allow you to
keep working when you're gonnahave the procedure this guy had.
So it it it takes it takes alot, I think.
And I I just want to shout outto that because you you have to
be the first one to hold peopleto those standards that they are
(39:55):
fit and ready to go.
You guys have any experiencewith that?
SPEAKER_00 (39:59):
Yeah, John, that I think that's a yeah, it's a it's
a hundred percent real thingthat it's it's I I compare it to
the training level still,though.
I'll take it all the way back tothat.
I mean, it's it's different ifthey're impaired physically,
can't do it, mentally, can't doit, you know, whatever.
There's an avenue to addressthat, right?
And that the organization needsto have standards and
(40:20):
expectations of how they'regonna do that and follow that
process.
Well, I link that right back tothe training because we've all
gone to work and been like, Ihope we don't get a fire in
Engine 17's area today becauseit's gonna be a problem.
Well, we should do somethingabout that.
Just like we would do somethingabout somebody's intoxicated,
somebody, you know, had surgery,somebody doesn't want to use a
(40:43):
sick day, but they, you know,can't hardly walk because their
ankles broke or whatever, thetraining, in my view, is is
really no different.
We we are not as prepared as weneed to be and should be to make
this response.
And and specifically here, we'retalking about you know, command
(41:05):
command training and theexpectations that go along with
that.
So as a response chief, ifyou're in that position where
there's an acting companyofficer or or a regular company
officer that doesn't meet theexpectation, then we can't fix
that in five minutes, but weneed to start it, right?
We need to identify, hey, thisis a there's work for us to do,
and we need to improve on, youknow, Johnny's skill set when
(41:29):
he's riding as as the companyofficer.
And far too often I think wedon't engage in that because we
don't want to hear back theflack from anybody about why did
we do what we did.
And quite frankly, it createsthis thing called work that so
many people try to avoid.
(41:49):
It's easier to turn my head andsay, I hope nothing happens over
there today, than it is to gothere and say, well, no, we're
gonna start doing some trainingtoday.
And as a company officer, samething, right?
You got somebody on your companyor that transfers into your
company that doesn't have theskills that they need to have
and meet the standards andexpectations of the
organization, then there's workto do.
(42:11):
But if we if we turn our head toit and accept it, then we
shouldn't ever be surprised whenthings don't go as we expect.
And it all comes back to we needto turn and focus on the
delivery and the work that wedo.
That that that is our number oneobjective.
We go to work, they pay us to goto work to respond to
(42:32):
emergencies and incidents.
That's why we exist.
And all the rest of it is niceto do stuff, but uh we get so
politically wrapped around thewe're gonna do all this other
political dog and pony showstuff because it looks good on
the administration or one personin the administration or
whatever.
And meanwhile, the capabilitiesof the organization is lacking
(42:58):
at best.
SPEAKER_02 (42:59):
That politics stuff that comes in.
I and I I realize the firechiefs have to do it.
Uh I I did it, but I always useda litness test is what's this
gonna do for the firefighters?
Is it gonna elevate theirstature within the organization
or whatever to get them involvedand stuff?
And there was a lot of stuff Ijust never got them involved in
because it wasn't gonna doanything for them or the
(43:20):
community.
It was just the it was allfeel-good stuff for for maybe a
couple of politicians.
So if if that was the case, wedidn't do it.
If it was gonna be somethingthat had a benefit and a return
on investment when it comes tothe time that you're going to
put in on it, then then maybe itwould be something to do.
But there's so much pressure onfire chiefs to get involved in
the in this political crap likeyou're talking about, you know,
(43:42):
whether it's, you know, the theUnited Way fun drive or any
other kind of charitable giving.
And you got to pick and choosewhat you're doing because you
only have so many hours of theday.
I I worked at an organizationwhere some of the neighboring
departments would do chili feedsand fish fries and pancake
breakfasts.
And our department wanted to dothat.
(44:03):
And it's like, why?
Well, the camaraderie.
That it's fun camaraderie stuff.
So, well, do you realize howmuch work it is to put?
I mean, number one, we don'thave a financial need for it.
Any pancake breakfast I've everbeen involved in is not enough
to fill the tank of everyapparatus on the department.
So, I mean, the the the profitthat you get off those things,
(44:23):
and then the time and energyyou're wasting on it when you
could be training and gettingother things ready to go for a
response.
So you got to look at what theoverall return is gonna be.
And I always said no.
And it's like, no, there's noreason for us to do that.
Now, sometimes, you know, we wehave some associates right now
that work with us that they'regoing through some very heavy
stuff politically in theircommunities because they're
(44:45):
looking to defund their firedepartments, where they're
changing levies or trying toeliminate levies altogether and
property taxes in some state.
I know that's big in Idaho andand uh Wyoming and Montana right
now.
And those fire departments haveto engage in that.
And and and somehow, you know,depending on how your city
charter is or how you're set up,you're you're gonna get your
(45:07):
troops involved in that too.
But that that's more of a fightfor survival politically than it
is anything else.
But you've got to pick andchoose, is my point and triage
what you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01 (45:18):
So I I can't keep go ahead, Josh.
SPEAKER_00 (45:20):
The best thing that we can do with all of that
still, though, is provide andfocus on the providing the best
service that we can provide withwhat we have.
And if we if we slam on thebrakes and say, you know, we're
not happy with the politicalstance, then you're gonna get
(45:42):
even less support.
But John, I think, as you said,it it doesn't that's not it it
that doesn't engage really allof the the companies out there.
That's more of administrativeand and top level management
positions that that are gonnadeal with that.
And what we need the companiesto do is to provide the best
(46:04):
service they can possiblyprovide, but far too often that
turns into we don't have anysupport, so we're not gonna
train, we're not gonna do any ofthis other stuff.
And it's like, well, that's whyyou exist is to provide that
service and to do it the bestthat we can possibly do it, and
accepting anything less thandoing it as good as we can is
(46:28):
not acceptable.
SPEAKER_01 (46:30):
So that consistency and message is is really helps
us in that, right?
And so, like this is where Brunowas most masterful, in my
opinion, is he would only engagein political stuff that in a way
that he was representing thesafety and welfare and
(46:54):
protecting lives of thecommunity from his job as the
fire chief.
That conveyed down into themembership of oh, I have to
maintain that consistency in myview of this is what matters,
right?
So he would get involved inthings like sprinkler code, he
would get involved in thingslike emergency transportation
(47:18):
for the community, he would getinvolved in things that had a
political element that directlyimpacted the community and and
what his job andresponsibilities were as the
fire chief and the firedepartment for the community.
And and the his kryptonite everysingle time in that political
discussion was the customerservice delivery of the that in
(47:41):
our case, the city, the PhoenixFire Department was delivering
to the community.
Because anytime there waspolitical pushback, his ability
to thwart that politicalpushback was what the community
thought of the fire departmentbecause the fire department was
taking care of them.
When they showed up, they werenice to them, they took care of
their problem, and they madethem feel like they gave a shit.
(48:13):
It's not getting into thepolitics because I want to be,
you know, I'm part of themayor's team or I'm part of the
city manager's team.
That's all nonsense.
Keep it focused on what the workis of the fire department, what
the role and responsibility ofthe fire chief is.
And when you're actually reallygood at that, you really, really
(48:35):
help the battalion chiefs, youhelp the company officers stay
focused on what are the thingshere that I really need to be
worried about.
And, you know, we're alwaysgoing to have Fox News or
whatever, whatever bullshitstreaming on the TV in a
firehouse is a distraction, butthat can be turned off.
And and how the all of thebosses from the top down are
(48:57):
behaving and what they'refocusing on is is is a really
important element to fightingall the other distractions.
SPEAKER_02 (49:05):
Well, great discussion, guys, on the roles
and responsibilities.
I think we can go on forever onthe expectations of what we're
expecting out of our companyofficers and chief level
officers.
If any of you have any input orideas that you would like to
share with us, please hit us upon the email in the show notes.
Before we go, Timeless TacticalTruth.
(49:35):
Have you guys seen that video?
There's actually somebody withthe Timeless Tactical Truth.
They put it on the chip on theirsiren and their heavy rescue of
all things.
So that's that's a nice homage.
Wow.
Okay, today the Two of Hearts.
And uh this one says the IC isresponsible for all command
functions all of the time.
(49:56):
Simply, command functions definethe IC's job.
I'm gonna repeat this one moretime.
The IC is responsible for allcommand functions all the time.
Simply, command functions definethe IC's job.
We see people try to piecemealcommand functions or drop some
(50:18):
down and we're not gonna dothis.
But when they don't do them all,it doesn't really seem to work,
does it?
I mean, do you do you see thempicking and choosing and that
being a a system that ends upworking if you're not doing all
of the command functions?
And I I'm sure what Bruno'stalking about here is the
A-functions of command, right?
SPEAKER_01 (50:36):
So so so he eloquently is saying an IC
should know and be responsiblefor their job.
Okay.
What is it?
And when we start picking andchoosing what it is that we like
about a system and process, andI'm only gonna do these, and I'm
not gonna do these because Ithink they're dumb or they're
hard, or they're, you know, it'sit doesn't uh there's not a lot
(50:59):
of self-actualization tied to meperforming that.
That becomes a problem.
It's a standard and a processfor a reason.
It's standard and a process toget us to an to an end result.
And in this case, it's achievingthe tactical objectives all
clear, under control, and a lossstopped, right?
And so that's the work we'resupposed to do.
(51:21):
And the the most effective bestpractice at it is utilizing
those those components of it toget there.
So my question would be is howdo you manage effectiveness and
how do you manage performance ifyou don't have a clear standard
to actually get us there?
And the ICs aren't actually goodat at executing that.
(51:44):
So it uh I I guess you don't gettoo many uh commercial airline
pilots saying, well, I'm gonna,I'm gonna do this part of my
job.
I don't really, I'm not gonnamess with this other stuff
because that's never reallyimportant.
It's never, it's never reallymattered to me.
And and so I'll just do what I'mwhat I want or what I'm
comfortable with.
(52:04):
Yeah, that's that's that's not agood thing for for them and the
safety of passengers and allthat other stuff.
And that's that's why the systemdoesn't allow them to do that.
I don't know why the fireservice allows us to do it.
SPEAKER_00 (52:16):
What we do is nothing that we do is by
ourselves.
So that so when we don't have asystem, which in this case, you
know, talking about you know,fire command, blue card, the
eight functions of command, andand the and the strategic
decision-making model, so thatwe can walk through that process
and continue to revisit everyone of those functions
(52:36):
throughout the entire incident.
If we do that, and everybodyelse that's on the fire ground
that's a that's that'soperating, including the
firefighters, have some sort ofan inkling of the process
because that's how theorganization is trained and
that's how the fire chief hasrolled out and said, This is the
expectation and this is whatwe're going to do, that's how we
(52:57):
end up with that end result.
But, you know, far too often wekind of started with it, Chris.
I think you said it.
You if you ask a firedepartment, what's your incident
command system?
We do ICS, and it's like, well,what is that?
And they can't tell you onecomponent of it besides, you
know, somebody's in command.
And it's like, well, what doesthat even mean?
And all of those things are justwords unless you actually have a
(53:21):
system and process, and you'vetrained everybody on that system
and process, and then you know,a a huge component of is this
working?
And if it's not working, is itthe system that's broke, or are
we not using the systemappropriately?
And most often we find with thatthe system's not broke, it's we
(53:43):
we did not train people to usethe system the way that it's
designed to be used.
So yeah, the A-function is acommand.
It's it's the it's the playbook,if you will, of managing,
organizing the fire ground.
And I think I think it says theIC is responsible for.
(54:05):
Well, that doesn't mean thatthey have to do it, that just
means they're responsible forit.
So that's where you know thatdelegation piece of who's gonna
fill out these other roles tomake sure that all these things
happen.
So, you know, if you expanded anincident out and had multiple
divisions and a support officerand a senior advisor and build
out a whole command team and allof that, well, you're gonna work
through all eight functions ofcommand continually, and
(54:28):
multiple people are gonna begoing through multiple different
parts of that eight functions ofcommand until the final
resolution of law stopped andand you know, primary all clears
of of all victims removed andproperty conservation.
So it it it is a system.
SPEAKER_01 (54:48):
You know, I don't I really don't believe in gravity.
So I'm really not gonna accountfor it on the fire ground,
right?
And and I don't believe in it,right?
So I it's really not a thing.
But when the bit when I havestructural collapse or when I
(55:08):
have you know uh other thingsthat are very much the cause of
gravity, I then that that givesme license to act surprised that
it happened.
And like I couldn't possiblybelieve that that that could
have occurred, right?
Because I just didn't believe init.
Well uh that's the way webehave.
That's the way we act a lot oftimes when when we're not using
(55:31):
a system and a standard and aprocess, and nobody has the
specific incident action plan,nobody knows how we get there,
and and we're just doingwhatever it is that we feel like
doing on the fire ground, andthen we have a problem, and
that's kind of the way we'reacting a lot of times as a as a
fire service.
So I don't quite I don't quiteget all that.
SPEAKER_02 (55:51):
A wonderful discussion, guys.
I I appreciate you both beinghere today and being a part of
the B Shifter Podcast, and thatabout does it for us.
Until next time, thanks so muchfor listening.
Make sure to subscribe and uhtell your friends to listen to
the B Shifter Podcast.
We'll talk to you next week.
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