July 24, 2025 • 22 mins
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Nick Brunicini, Terry Garrison, and Pat Dale examine the vital connection between internal department culture and external customer service in the fire service.
• Core services involve technical aspects of firefighting while added value services humanize customer interactions
• Customers rarely write letters about equipment or tactics but frequently comment on how firefighters made them feel
• Treating members of the organization with kindness and respect creates the foundation for excellent public service
• Leadership must consistently model the expected behaviors and hold everyone accountable to the same standard
• The "push broom story" demonstrates how leadership decisions either support or undermine organizational culture
• Being nice doesn't mean avoiding accountability—it means addressing issues with dignity and respect
• Effective leaders establish personal authority through consistent behavior rather than relying solely on positional power
• Organizational culture is shaped by how leadership responds to challenges and treats team members
• Modern fire service leadership requires balancing tradition with evolving professional standards
Join Pat and Terry at this year's Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference, September 29-October 3 at the Sharonville Convention Center near Cincinnati.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the B-Shifter podcast.
I'm John Vance.
I hope you're enjoying thesummer, hopefully getting to
spend some time with your familyand friends.
It goes by so fast, so get upand enjoy it.
This week we've got a powerfulsegment featuring Nick Brunicini
, terry Garrison and Pat Dale,and they're diving into an
(00:28):
important topic, and it's how wetreat each other internally and
how that directly impacts theway we serve our external
customers.
Watching this week's headlines,I couldn't help but wonder what
the internal dynamics look likeat some of those departments
making the news this week.
It's a prime example of whatnot to do when interacting with
(00:53):
the public, even in the mostpassive situations at the
firehouse, so it's not even atan emergency.
What you're about to hear ispart of the larger Silverback
Leadership Program available toall Blue Card Incident
Commanders.
In fact, just last week, weintroduced a brand new CE based
(01:13):
on this very topic.
So if you like this, downloadthat.
It's a great program and it'llgive you even more tips, tricks
and insight on what leadershiplooks like.
Here's the good news too Patand Terry will be presenting at
this year's Blue Card HazardZone Conference, september 29th
(01:33):
through October 3rd at theSharonville Convention Center
outside of Cincinnati, ohio.
We have the link here for youto sign up for that.
And before we jump into the fullpodcast, I have a favor to ask
you If you haven't done soalready, please hit that like
and subscribe buttons.
It really helps us out I knoweveryone who has a podcast says
(01:57):
that, but it really does.
And don't forget to share thisepisode with your crew too.
In the show notes you'll alsofind a link to our weekly
newsletter.
It's called the B Shifter BuckSlip and it helps you stay in
the loop on free training andincident command and leadership
topics.
It goes out to 30,000 incidentcommanders every week.
(02:18):
Don't miss what they're getting.
Subscribe to the B Shifter BuckSlip and, of course, you can
always find all of this freecontent at BShiftercom.
Now let's hand it over to theSilverbacks, as they talk about
push brooms and leaf blowers.
Yes, really, that's how thatconnects to our internal
(02:40):
department culture.
You'll hear it here on the BShifter podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Hi, I'm Nick Brunicini.
I'm here with John Vance, patDale and Terry Garrison and this
is the third module of theSilverback Leadership Program
and this one has to do withinside-outside customer service.
So essentially what this modulelooks at is the fire department
(03:06):
delivers core services as ourregular thing EMS, fire, hazmat,
trt whatever we do for thepublic is our core service.
We have SOPs, training and therest of that goes into
delivering effective coreservices.
Well, the other part of this isthe added value services.
(03:27):
So the added value piece kindof humanizes the customer
service exchange in it andthat's really what the customer
remembers in that transactionwhere we're delivering the
service.
And there's a number ofexamples throughout the
curriculum that we're using toput this program together, where
AVB talks about all the lettershe got back from all the
(03:47):
customers, as he said, the firstcouple sentences were what
their problem was and theneverything that followed it,
which could be pages, was howthe firefighters treated the
customers in it and he saysnobody wrote me a letter talking
about what excellentcoordinated attacks we conduct
(04:10):
or the command system that weuse or the quality of our saws
or any of that.
He says Mrs Smith always calledus back to let us know they
were so nice to me, you got hereso quick and you took care of
my problem and the firefighterswere so nice.
Well, they got here quick, theytook care of the problem core
(04:31):
services, they were so nice isadded value.
Well, one of the things we'redoing in this and we'll get to
the three experts in this thatactually implemented this in
their fire departments.
But the be nice part of it iswe did this in our old former
fire department we worked for iswhen this first started and we
(04:51):
started looking at added valueand the effect that had on the
service delivery cycle andeverything else is.
We really didn't change much asmost firefighters already
working for the fire departmentand the way we were trained and
the way that the administrationand leadership treated everybody
.
We were already there aseverybody was already treated
like a valued member of theorganization, so we were already
(05:15):
being nice to each other inside.
So you didn't see a hugedifference really in the
ultimate service delivery fromone day when this was brought up
and then we actually startedthinking about it and doing it
more and as it went on, itstruck me that the added value
part at least the front end ofit.
The being nice element ended upwas really kind of part of the
(05:38):
core services.
It was just the approach thatyou use because it was a group
of nice people to begin with andthey were all.
There were very few people thatwould act out any kind of
negative thing with the customer.
That would happen occasionally,but it was an anomaly.
It was more that we would.
You know we'd show up, we'd bedecent to the customer and
everything would go well.
You know we'd show up, we'd bedecent to the customer and
(05:58):
everything would go well.
So today's topic is we're goingto talk about the way you guys
did that in your organizationsand I think a lot of it comes
through of the aisle of trust.
As you know, we got to trustone another to be able to do
this and there's some otherstuff.
So I'm going to kick it to thegroup of you Because, like Terry
(06:22):
, you went to, you were the firechief for four different fire
departments and kind ofimplemented the same thing with
really pretty good success inall four of those places.
So how did that cut?
What did you do when you got in, kind of as a strategic
leadership piece of it, to say,okay, this is where we're at as
a service delivery organizationand we can improve a couple of
things and move it to here.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah.
So thanks for asking and thanksfor saying that.
So the first thing I did andit's going to sound goofy is I
was nice to people.
When I showed up, I came inwith an approach of hey, I'm
here, I'm here to help, I don'tknow everything.
I'm here to help, I don't knoweverything.
I'm here to listen to you guys,to see where we're going to
move this forward, where we needto move this forward.
But I'm going to be nice to you,but in turn, I expect you to be
(07:06):
nice to each other and in turn,I expect you to be nice to the
customers, with the expectationof if you're not nice to the
customer, if you're not nice toeach other and I find out about
it then I'm going to do someunkind things to you in ways of
(07:27):
discipline, and we talk aboutthat later on.
But the front end is you got tosay right up front we're going
to be a be nice organization,we're going to be kind to
everybody that we encounter andwe're going to be kind to each
other.
And that is the expectationfrom the leader.
You got to start with theexpectation of the leader.
If the leader is weak on that,or they're iffy on that or if
(07:48):
they're just nice some days.
You know we talk aboutconsistency and how people you
know show up with a differentmedication every day.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Either take half the pill or take two of them.
You've got to figure out ifyour dose ain't right.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, fire chiefs, having a bad day can't be mean
to people.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
And.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Brunicini was never mean to us and I remember that
working for him for 29 yearsNever saw him be mean.
I saw him be directive to us ina way and then he kind of got
past it and he didn't thinkabout it too much.
And some people lingered withthat directiveness longer than
(08:27):
others.
But the first thing is you gotto say I'm here, I'm here to
support you guys so that we cando the best job we're here for.
And you got to remind everybodywe got to go back to the very
first chapter, or the secondsection, which is the work is
what matters.
The very most important thing isthe work that matters.
So once you say that the workmatters and the way we treat
(08:47):
each other while we're doingthat work and preparing to do
that work, and training to dothat work and living together in
quarters, and then how we dothat work, we're going to do it
in a kind nice manner.
We can't just screw with eachother because we got a little
bit extra time.
We can still have fun.
We're not going to take awaythe fun because you know, being
(09:08):
a firefighter is absolutely fun.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Well and that was part of our careers is we came
on.
You came on in the late 70s, Icame on in 1980.
And the culture in the firedepartment was different then.
It was a little more fraternal,you could be a little more out
of bounds with each other,compared to kind of the
environment we live in today.
You know I'm not going to usehazing, but that probably comes
(09:31):
the closest but we were all goodfriends and understood each
other.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And, like you said, we would screw with each other a
little bit.
Well, you know, we worked witheach other enough to know that
if somebody was having an offday, somebody that you'd
normally screw with a little bitand tease if they were having a
bad day, you didn't tease them.
Yeah, so we were close enoughto know that we worked in our,
our cruise, that it's like, hey,that guy's having I don't,
don't mess with him, man, hiswife, him and his wife are
having whatever and you wouldkind of know each other more and
(10:02):
and based on that, you wouldtreat them differently for that.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You'd be a little more chill with them.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Almost enable him to get through whatever the, the,
the rough sea they were goingthrough at that time to get
healthy enough where you couldstart poking them and prodding
them again.
I mean, that's kind of what wedid.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But you know, things change and life evolves and
honestly, if you're in a firestation, nobody poked and
prodded you and didn't tease youa little bit, then that was
like a negative for you.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, you weren't part of the group.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And I'd feel terrible if you didn't at least say
something about this haircut,right, yeah, exactly.
Well, you don't care, I got abad haircut or whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
You mentioned one of the things earlier and it
reminded me of somethingChurchill said during the Second
World War.
He says you know you can go offand you can be nice about the
war.
And people are like what areyou talking about?
We're in battle for our country.
And he says, well, no, I'llgive you an example.
And I mean, yeah, you're goingto kill him just as soon, but
(11:03):
don't be a prick about it, justkill him and go about your
business.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Don't be like a cat and torture him before they.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Exactly.
So it's kind of odd.
This is the second time we'reshooting this thing.
The first time we startedtalking a little bit more on the
task level about an issue, wegot ahead of it.
Yeah, we got ahead of ourselves, and we'll do that.
Later on in the last half ofthe program we'll start looking
at simulations, if you will, andhow you deal with those.
But one of the things we weretalking about in this particular
(11:31):
scenario the core service wasgreat.
It was everything you wanted,but the added value they just
were disregarding the customerand the customer was a
distraction and the rest of it.
And so one of the things thatI'm interested in is we're going
to be nice to each other, butif somebody screws up and they
keep screwing up, it's almostlike, okay, I've got to address
(11:52):
this and correct it.
But in a lot of people's firstreaction is I'm going to be mean
to you about this, this isgoing to be disciplinary and
it's going to hurt.
So you don't repeat these badbehaviors and you become nice
and I don't.
During my career, the more Ithought about it, the more you
had mean chiefs doing that kindof stuff or leaders, the less
(12:14):
effective it seemed to be and itkind of tore on them a little
bit yeah, you know and it.
And they almost dig in then andsay, no, you're just, you don't
see it enough.
And you know, this is what lovelooks like.
And you're like yeah, it'ssomewhat dysfunctional.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I had somebody tell me, nick, one time that they go
into an organization as a firechief mean spirited and rules
and regulations, because laterthey felt like they could ease
up when they feel morecomfortable.
Like establishing theirauthority.
Yeah, and I said no.
I think it's exactly theopposite.
I think if you develop andestablish your personal
(12:53):
authority before you have to useyour profession, because
everybody we talk about it,everybody knows you're the fire
chief you're the battalion chieffor the assistant chief
operations.
They don't need to be told that.
Yeah, and they know your roleand your organizational
authority the battalion chief orthe assistant chief operations.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
They don't need to be told that.
Yeah, and they know your roleand your organizational
authority, like you're the firechief.
Yeah, we know you're the boss.
You don't have to be an assholeabout it.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
So the other thing too and I'll let you guys jump
in, but you asked me is so whenyou move into an organization I
was lucky there was some reallygood low-hanging fruit in one
organization where people werebeing mean, and the people that
were being mean to the workerswere some of the assistant
chiefs, and as I wasinterviewing for more new
(13:38):
assistant chiefs, I got a chanceto do that, to pick my command
team 11 or 12 assistant chiefsand I kept hearing about and
I've written about this, butit's good to say it here again
because it's an example of howyou kind of set the bar Like
this is what we will or won'ttolerate.
And I was interviewingassistant chiefs and I was going
(13:59):
to interview the ones that werein place and I was going to
interview people that kind ofmet the mark as far as education
and experience.
And the first day I heard twoor three stories about the
logistics guy who is the supportchief, and the same story came
up regarding I've called it thepush broom story, where they go.
(14:20):
Well, you know, I want to comein because I and what the way it
came across for the people thatwould use this as an example is
they weren't beating him somuch up, so much as they were
telling the story to try toshare with me that they were
going to be nice, because theyknow he wants nice people, he
wants supportive people.
And they would say, hey, I wantto be more, I want the
logistics chief position becauseI'm going to be more supportive
(14:42):
than the guy who's in now.
Well, tell me what you mean bythat.
Well, this guy.
You know, we order all of ourequipment up through our
district chiefs and then it goesto the assistant chief of
support services.
And we ordered because we havea fire station that's in kind of
a low economic area part of thetown and behind our fire
(15:05):
station there's a park and thedrunks handle the park.
It's like vietnam, right, they,the drunks, had it by night and
the kids had it by day, so soduring the daytime the kids
would go out there and they tryto play in the grass and the
basketball court and there'sbroken beer bottles and all
kinds of terrible stuff.
So the firefighters on saturdaywanted to take it on their own,
(15:28):
as they said, hey, we want toclean that park every Saturday
along with our fire station.
It's like, wow, that's prettyamazing, right.
So we asked the we put in arequisition to get six I think
it was at the time six blowers.
And they sent it to the chiefand they said the reason we want
these blowers we want to blowout the fire station.
(15:49):
Then we want to blow off thepark and get all the glass and
clean it up every Saturdaybecause it needs it after Friday
night, and so they waited forthe requisition to come back.
It goes to the district chief.
The district chief comes backand he he said I got bad news.
He goes you guys are, here'seight push brooms.
So they, they.
(16:09):
Hey, the district chief callsthe assistant chief.
He said hey, chief, you gavethese guys push brooms.
They need blowers.
He goes you know what they wantto use it for, right.
He goes yeah, they put it downin their memo, their request
that they want to clean the park.
He goes yeah, they want toclean off the stuff.
Response start pushing.
You got push for him, startpushing.
(16:30):
Now the cost of eight pushbrooms was about the same as the
cost of six blowers.
This is just the way governmentis right.
Yeah.
So I had heard that story two orthree times on the first day.
So the second day this supportchief was coming in.
He sat down, seemed like apleasant guy, how you doing nice
to meet you.
I said, before we start theinterview, let me ask you.
(16:52):
I heard this scenario the otherday twice and I explained it to
him and I said did you do that?
And he goes yeah, and I go.
Why would you do that?
He goes because they need to bepush brooms.
The firefighter push brooms,that's what they need.
They're not getting.
They're not getting blowers.
I said so did you?
Would you do that again,knowing that he goes?
(17:15):
Yeah, I'd do it again.
I said so.
I said well, let me stop youright there.
I said uh, you were assistantchief, yeah, okay.
Well, you are not going to bean assistant chief.
Moving forward, I'm going tofind somebody to replace you
that'll put blowers on that andcheck, yes, and send blowers.
I said you're the support.
I did my old, you know, phoenixdude.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
I duded a situation.
Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
How did dude work in Texas?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Dude, you're the support chief, support those
guys and he goes.
Yeah, so anyway.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
What did you have the blowers for?
I mean, what would you have todo?
Oh, you could get a blower youcould use some special guys.
Got blowers apparently so,friends of his, we get the
blowers.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I didn't go that deep into it because I was you know,
I want to take the broom,exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, you didn't need to find that answer, but I
wasn't mean to him, I just saidokay so and I looked across
because I have the positionalpower.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I don't need to use my personal.
You're an asshole power.
He is an asshole, we all knewhe was.
And I said well, as soon as Ifinish this process, you're not
going to be the logistics chiefor the support officer, you're
going to go back to the districtand you're going to go back to
and I use this term because itjust felt so good to say it, so
(18:33):
this might've been a little bitof mean spirit in this, but I
said you're going to go back tothe general population.
And he looked at me and he saysokay, and I said so, you're
going to have a great day.
You want a bottle of water onyour way out?
I'm not interviewing, I'm notasking you any more questions.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah yeah, this is a short interview.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
And he retired within that very short period of time
and those guys got their blowers.
In fact, they got their blowersthat same week.
Because, it was so easy to do.
So, I guess, saying back toyour original question, saying
that you're going to be nice andsupport the workers and then
demonstrating that in a realbecause nice and support the
workers, and then show,demonstrating that in a real
(19:13):
because that that went throughthe entire that wasn't
transparent.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
What happened there?
That everybody saw that.
Everybody saw that.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So you want to be transparent, you want to use
some of those, because whathappens is, as a leader, and you
guys, I'll let you jump in nowbut when you make a statement
about um, any decision, and yousay, know, this is the line that
we're going to, the line hereis going to be, we're going to
be nice to people, ok, guesswhat?
There's going to be a personwithin your organization who's
(19:44):
going to step over whatever lineyou just created, that
imaginary cultural line orwhatever that is, that imaginary
cultural line or whatever thatis and now everybody's like okay
, chief, I felt so lucky when Iwent home that day to say I'm so
glad I got this opportunity toreally demonstrate.
Now, I'm sorry I had to do thatto that guy.
(20:06):
I really was.
It's like would you do thatagain?
I asked him and he said yes.
I was like oh well.
Terry, you got your first chanceand second chance right there.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
He decided what was going to happen to himself.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He self-assessed himself.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
He got ahead of himself because he didn't know
the new boss wasn't going to putup with that kind of juvenile
behavior that he wasdemonstrating and I thought,
within the weeks leading up to,that.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
I was pretty clear about that.
We're going to support themembers, so the members will
support the country.
Yeah, you think the last threeor four chiefs said the same
thing.
Yeah, we'll see how this goes.
Well, you know what's funny?
Because one thing I do got tosay, because we talk about the
chief that I followed wasactually a pretty good chief in
that organization.
He got wound up in a personalissue, but I have followed other
chiefs that weren't that wayand it makes it so black and
white.
We talked about the questionthat you guys will see coming up
(20:55):
in the Massachusetts sectionabout how do you follow a good
chief who's set the bar.
That's harder than following aguy who is—.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, after you left that fire department it wasn't
six months later.
I know people that work there,we deal with them through
training and some other stuffand the thing that they started
asking is oh, do you miss themyet?
And that was it.
And the people they askedfinally said shut up and quit,
asking me that it pissed themoff so much that they kind of
(21:26):
missed the opportunity.
And then the new, and it justwasn't what.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So yeah, you know it's unfortunate they got
another chief.
I was an outside chief and Iwould love it if, if every chief
that would promote it was fromthe inside the organization, if
they had that ability to do that.
But I went in.
You guys have done as anoutside chief and you're you
know they didn't have anybodythat really that the mayor or
the council wanted or whoeverthat really the mayor or the
(21:53):
council wanted or whoever.
So you come in and they gotanother outside guy after me who
didn't have the same thoughtprocess that I had.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's
B-Shifter podcast.
Big thanks to Nick, pat andTerry for always keeping it real
.
Stay safe and we'll see younext time.
Hello and welcome to the B-Shifter podcast.
I'm John Vance.
I hope you're enjoying thesummer, hopefully getting to
spend some time with your familyand friends.
It goes by so fast, so get upand enjoy it.
This week we've got a powerfulsegment featuring Nick Brunicini
, terry Garrison and Pat Dale,and they're diving into an
(00:28):
important topic, and it's how wetreat each other internally and
how that directly impacts theway we serve our external
customers.
Watching this week's headlines,I couldn't help but wonder what
the internal dynamics look likeat some of those departments
making the news this week.
It's a prime example of whatnot to do when interacting with
(00:53):
the public, even in the mostpassive situations at the
firehouse, so it's not even atan emergency.
What you're about to hear ispart of the larger Silverback
Leadership Program available toall Blue Card Incident
Commanders.
In fact, just last week, weintroduced a brand new CE based
(01:13):
on this very topic.
So if you like this, downloadthat.
It's a great program and it'llgive you even more tips, tricks
and insight on what leadershiplooks like.
Here's the good news too Patand Terry will be presenting at
this year's Blue Card HazardZone Conference, september 29th
(01:33):
through October 3rd at theSharonville Convention Center
outside of Cincinnati, ohio.
We have the link here for youto sign up for that.
And before we jump into the fullpodcast, I have a favor to ask
you If you haven't done soalready, please hit that like
and subscribe buttons.
It really helps us out I knoweveryone who has a podcast says
(01:57):
that, but it really does.
And don't forget to share thisepisode with your crew too.
In the show notes you'll alsofind a link to our weekly
newsletter.
It's called the B Shifter BuckSlip and it helps you stay in
the loop on free training andincident command and leadership
topics.
It goes out to 30,000 incidentcommanders every week.
(02:18):
Don't miss what they're getting.
Subscribe to the B Shifter BuckSlip and, of course, you can
always find all of this freecontent at BShiftercom.
Now let's hand it over to theSilverbacks, as they talk about
push brooms and leaf blowers.
Yes, really, that's how thatconnects to our internal
(02:40):
department culture.
You'll hear it here on the BShifter podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Hi, I'm Nick Brunicini.
I'm here with John Vance, patDale and Terry Garrison and this
is the third module of theSilverback Leadership Program
and this one has to do withinside-outside customer service.
So essentially what this modulelooks at is the fire department
(03:06):
delivers core services as ourregular thing EMS, fire, hazmat,
trt whatever we do for thepublic is our core service.
We have SOPs, training and therest of that goes into
delivering effective coreservices.
Well, the other part of this isthe added value services.
(03:27):
So the added value piece kindof humanizes the customer
service exchange in it andthat's really what the customer
remembers in that transactionwhere we're delivering the
service.
And there's a number ofexamples throughout the
curriculum that we're using toput this program together, where
AVB talks about all the lettershe got back from all the
(03:47):
customers, as he said, the firstcouple sentences were what
their problem was and theneverything that followed it,
which could be pages, was howthe firefighters treated the
customers in it and he saysnobody wrote me a letter talking
about what excellentcoordinated attacks we conduct
(04:10):
or the command system that weuse or the quality of our saws
or any of that.
He says Mrs Smith always calledus back to let us know they
were so nice to me, you got hereso quick and you took care of
my problem and the firefighterswere so nice.
Well, they got here quick, theytook care of the problem core
(04:31):
services, they were so nice isadded value.
Well, one of the things we'redoing in this and we'll get to
the three experts in this thatactually implemented this in
their fire departments.
But the be nice part of it iswe did this in our old former
fire department we worked for iswhen this first started and we
(04:51):
started looking at added valueand the effect that had on the
service delivery cycle andeverything else is.
We really didn't change much asmost firefighters already
working for the fire departmentand the way we were trained and
the way that the administrationand leadership treated everybody
.
We were already there aseverybody was already treated
like a valued member of theorganization, so we were already
(05:15):
being nice to each other inside.
So you didn't see a hugedifference really in the
ultimate service delivery fromone day when this was brought up
and then we actually startedthinking about it and doing it
more and as it went on, itstruck me that the added value
part at least the front end ofit.
The being nice element ended upwas really kind of part of the
(05:38):
core services.
It was just the approach thatyou use because it was a group
of nice people to begin with andthey were all.
There were very few people thatwould act out any kind of
negative thing with the customer.
That would happen occasionally,but it was an anomaly.
It was more that we would.
You know we'd show up, we'd bedecent to the customer and
everything would go well.
You know we'd show up, we'd bedecent to the customer and
(05:58):
everything would go well.
So today's topic is we're goingto talk about the way you guys
did that in your organizationsand I think a lot of it comes
through of the aisle of trust.
As you know, we got to trustone another to be able to do
this and there's some otherstuff.
So I'm going to kick it to thegroup of you Because, like Terry
(06:22):
, you went to, you were the firechief for four different fire
departments and kind ofimplemented the same thing with
really pretty good success inall four of those places.
So how did that cut?
What did you do when you got in, kind of as a strategic
leadership piece of it, to say,okay, this is where we're at as
a service delivery organizationand we can improve a couple of
things and move it to here.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah.
So thanks for asking and thanksfor saying that.
So the first thing I did andit's going to sound goofy is I
was nice to people.
When I showed up, I came inwith an approach of hey, I'm
here, I'm here to help, I don'tknow everything.
I'm here to help, I don't knoweverything.
I'm here to listen to you guys,to see where we're going to
move this forward, where we needto move this forward.
But I'm going to be nice to you,but in turn, I expect you to be
(07:06):
nice to each other and in turn,I expect you to be nice to the
customers, with the expectationof if you're not nice to the
customer, if you're not nice toeach other and I find out about
it then I'm going to do someunkind things to you in ways of
(07:27):
discipline, and we talk aboutthat later on.
But the front end is you got tosay right up front we're going
to be a be nice organization,we're going to be kind to
everybody that we encounter andwe're going to be kind to each
other.
And that is the expectationfrom the leader.
You got to start with theexpectation of the leader.
If the leader is weak on that,or they're iffy on that or if
(07:48):
they're just nice some days.
You know we talk aboutconsistency and how people you
know show up with a differentmedication every day.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Either take half the pill or take two of them.
You've got to figure out ifyour dose ain't right.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yeah, fire chiefs, having a bad day can't be mean
to people.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
And.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Brunicini was never mean to us and I remember that
working for him for 29 yearsNever saw him be mean.
I saw him be directive to us ina way and then he kind of got
past it and he didn't thinkabout it too much.
And some people lingered withthat directiveness longer than
(08:27):
others.
But the first thing is you gotto say I'm here, I'm here to
support you guys so that we cando the best job we're here for.
And you got to remind everybodywe got to go back to the very
first chapter, or the secondsection, which is the work is
what matters.
The very most important thing isthe work that matters.
So once you say that the workmatters and the way we treat
(08:47):
each other while we're doingthat work and preparing to do
that work, and training to dothat work and living together in
quarters, and then how we dothat work, we're going to do it
in a kind nice manner.
We can't just screw with eachother because we got a little
bit extra time.
We can still have fun.
We're not going to take awaythe fun because you know, being
(09:08):
a firefighter is absolutely fun.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Well and that was part of our careers is we came
on.
You came on in the late 70s, Icame on in 1980.
And the culture in the firedepartment was different then.
It was a little more fraternal,you could be a little more out
of bounds with each other,compared to kind of the
environment we live in today.
You know I'm not going to usehazing, but that probably comes
(09:31):
the closest but we were all goodfriends and understood each
other.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And, like you said, we would screw with each other a
little bit.
Well, you know, we worked witheach other enough to know that
if somebody was having an offday, somebody that you'd
normally screw with a little bitand tease if they were having a
bad day, you didn't tease them.
Yeah, so we were close enoughto know that we worked in our,
our cruise, that it's like, hey,that guy's having I don't,
don't mess with him, man, hiswife, him and his wife are
having whatever and you wouldkind of know each other more and
(10:02):
and based on that, you wouldtreat them differently for that.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
You'd be a little more chill with them.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Almost enable him to get through whatever the, the,
the rough sea they were goingthrough at that time to get
healthy enough where you couldstart poking them and prodding
them again.
I mean, that's kind of what wedid.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
But you know, things change and life evolves and
honestly, if you're in a firestation, nobody poked and
prodded you and didn't tease youa little bit, then that was
like a negative for you.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, you weren't part of the group.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
And I'd feel terrible if you didn't at least say
something about this haircut,right, yeah, exactly.
Well, you don't care, I got abad haircut or whatever.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
You mentioned one of the things earlier and it
reminded me of somethingChurchill said during the Second
World War.
He says you know you can go offand you can be nice about the
war.
And people are like what areyou talking about?
We're in battle for our country.
And he says, well, no, I'llgive you an example.
And I mean, yeah, you're goingto kill him just as soon, but
(11:03):
don't be a prick about it, justkill him and go about your
business.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Don't be like a cat and torture him before they.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Exactly.
So it's kind of odd.
This is the second time we'reshooting this thing.
The first time we startedtalking a little bit more on the
task level about an issue, wegot ahead of it.
Yeah, we got ahead of ourselves, and we'll do that.
Later on in the last half ofthe program we'll start looking
at simulations, if you will, andhow you deal with those.
But one of the things we weretalking about in this particular
(11:31):
scenario the core service wasgreat.
It was everything you wanted,but the added value they just
were disregarding the customerand the customer was a
distraction and the rest of it.
And so one of the things thatI'm interested in is we're going
to be nice to each other, butif somebody screws up and they
keep screwing up, it's almostlike, okay, I've got to address
(11:52):
this and correct it.
But in a lot of people's firstreaction is I'm going to be mean
to you about this, this isgoing to be disciplinary and
it's going to hurt.
So you don't repeat these badbehaviors and you become nice
and I don't.
During my career, the more Ithought about it, the more you
had mean chiefs doing that kindof stuff or leaders, the less
(12:14):
effective it seemed to be and itkind of tore on them a little
bit yeah, you know and it.
And they almost dig in then andsay, no, you're just, you don't
see it enough.
And you know, this is what lovelooks like.
And you're like yeah, it'ssomewhat dysfunctional.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I had somebody tell me, nick, one time that they go
into an organization as a firechief mean spirited and rules
and regulations, because laterthey felt like they could ease
up when they feel morecomfortable.
Like establishing theirauthority.
Yeah, and I said no.
I think it's exactly theopposite.
I think if you develop andestablish your personal
(12:53):
authority before you have to useyour profession, because
everybody we talk about it,everybody knows you're the fire
chief you're the battalion chieffor the assistant chief
operations.
They don't need to be told that.
Yeah, and they know your roleand your organizational
authority the battalion chief orthe assistant chief operations.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
They don't need to be told that.
Yeah, and they know your roleand your organizational
authority, like you're the firechief.
Yeah, we know you're the boss.
You don't have to be an assholeabout it.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
So the other thing too and I'll let you guys jump
in, but you asked me is so whenyou move into an organization I
was lucky there was some reallygood low-hanging fruit in one
organization where people werebeing mean, and the people that
were being mean to the workerswere some of the assistant
chiefs, and as I wasinterviewing for more new
(13:38):
assistant chiefs, I got a chanceto do that, to pick my command
team 11 or 12 assistant chiefsand I kept hearing about and
I've written about this, butit's good to say it here again
because it's an example of howyou kind of set the bar Like
this is what we will or won'ttolerate.
And I was interviewingassistant chiefs and I was going
(13:59):
to interview the ones that werein place and I was going to
interview people that kind ofmet the mark as far as education
and experience.
And the first day I heard twoor three stories about the
logistics guy who is the supportchief, and the same story came
up regarding I've called it thepush broom story, where they go.
(14:20):
Well, you know, I want to comein because I and what the way it
came across for the people thatwould use this as an example is
they weren't beating him somuch up, so much as they were
telling the story to try toshare with me that they were
going to be nice, because theyknow he wants nice people, he
wants supportive people.
And they would say, hey, I wantto be more, I want the
logistics chief position becauseI'm going to be more supportive
(14:42):
than the guy who's in now.
Well, tell me what you mean bythat.
Well, this guy.
You know, we order all of ourequipment up through our
district chiefs and then it goesto the assistant chief of
support services.
And we ordered because we havea fire station that's in kind of
a low economic area part of thetown and behind our fire
(15:05):
station there's a park and thedrunks handle the park.
It's like vietnam, right, they,the drunks, had it by night and
the kids had it by day, so soduring the daytime the kids
would go out there and they tryto play in the grass and the
basketball court and there'sbroken beer bottles and all
kinds of terrible stuff.
So the firefighters on saturdaywanted to take it on their own,
(15:28):
as they said, hey, we want toclean that park every Saturday
along with our fire station.
It's like, wow, that's prettyamazing, right.
So we asked the we put in arequisition to get six I think
it was at the time six blowers.
And they sent it to the chiefand they said the reason we want
these blowers we want to blowout the fire station.
(15:49):
Then we want to blow off thepark and get all the glass and
clean it up every Saturdaybecause it needs it after Friday
night, and so they waited forthe requisition to come back.
It goes to the district chief.
The district chief comes backand he he said I got bad news.
He goes you guys are, here'seight push brooms.
So they, they.
(16:09):
Hey, the district chief callsthe assistant chief.
He said hey, chief, you gavethese guys push brooms.
They need blowers.
He goes you know what they wantto use it for, right.
He goes yeah, they put it downin their memo, their request
that they want to clean the park.
He goes yeah, they want toclean off the stuff.
Response start pushing.
You got push for him, startpushing.
(16:30):
Now the cost of eight pushbrooms was about the same as the
cost of six blowers.
This is just the way governmentis right.
Yeah.
So I had heard that story two orthree times on the first day.
So the second day this supportchief was coming in.
He sat down, seemed like apleasant guy, how you doing nice
to meet you.
I said, before we start theinterview, let me ask you.
(16:52):
I heard this scenario the otherday twice and I explained it to
him and I said did you do that?
And he goes yeah, and I go.
Why would you do that?
He goes because they need to bepush brooms.
The firefighter push brooms,that's what they need.
They're not getting.
They're not getting blowers.
I said so did you?
Would you do that again,knowing that he goes?
(17:15):
Yeah, I'd do it again.
I said so.
I said well, let me stop youright there.
I said uh, you were assistantchief, yeah, okay.
Well, you are not going to bean assistant chief.
Moving forward, I'm going tofind somebody to replace you
that'll put blowers on that andcheck, yes, and send blowers.
I said you're the support.
I did my old, you know, phoenixdude.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
I duded a situation.
Yeah, yeah, a little bit.
How did dude work in Texas?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Dude, you're the support chief, support those
guys and he goes.
Yeah, so anyway.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
What did you have the blowers for?
I mean, what would you have todo?
Oh, you could get a blower youcould use some special guys.
Got blowers apparently so,friends of his, we get the
blowers.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
I didn't go that deep into it because I was you know,
I want to take the broom,exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, you didn't need to find that answer, but I
wasn't mean to him, I just saidokay so and I looked across
because I have the positionalpower.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I don't need to use my personal.
You're an asshole power.
He is an asshole, we all knewhe was.
And I said well, as soon as Ifinish this process, you're not
going to be the logistics chiefor the support officer, you're
going to go back to the districtand you're going to go back to
and I use this term because itjust felt so good to say it, so
(18:33):
this might've been a little bitof mean spirit in this, but I
said you're going to go back tothe general population.
And he looked at me and he saysokay, and I said so, you're
going to have a great day.
You want a bottle of water onyour way out?
I'm not interviewing, I'm notasking you any more questions.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah yeah, this is a short interview.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
And he retired within that very short period of time
and those guys got their blowers.
In fact, they got their blowersthat same week.
Because, it was so easy to do.
So, I guess, saying back toyour original question, saying
that you're going to be nice andsupport the workers and then
demonstrating that in a realbecause nice and support the
workers, and then show,demonstrating that in a real
(19:13):
because that that went throughthe entire that wasn't
transparent.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
What happened there?
That everybody saw that.
Everybody saw that.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So you want to be transparent, you want to use
some of those, because whathappens is, as a leader, and you
guys, I'll let you jump in nowbut when you make a statement
about um, any decision, and yousay, know, this is the line that
we're going to, the line hereis going to be, we're going to
be nice to people, ok, guesswhat?
There's going to be a personwithin your organization who's
(19:44):
going to step over whatever lineyou just created, that
imaginary cultural line orwhatever that is, that imaginary
cultural line or whatever thatis and now everybody's like okay
, chief, I felt so lucky when Iwent home that day to say I'm so
glad I got this opportunity toreally demonstrate.
Now, I'm sorry I had to do thatto that guy.
(20:06):
I really was.
It's like would you do thatagain?
I asked him and he said yes.
I was like oh well.
Terry, you got your first chanceand second chance right there.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
He decided what was going to happen to himself.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He self-assessed himself.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
He got ahead of himself because he didn't know
the new boss wasn't going to putup with that kind of juvenile
behavior that he wasdemonstrating and I thought,
within the weeks leading up to,that.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
I was pretty clear about that.
We're going to support themembers, so the members will
support the country.
Yeah, you think the last threeor four chiefs said the same
thing.
Yeah, we'll see how this goes.
Well, you know what's funny?
Because one thing I do got tosay, because we talk about the
chief that I followed wasactually a pretty good chief in
that organization.
He got wound up in a personalissue, but I have followed other
chiefs that weren't that wayand it makes it so black and
white.
We talked about the questionthat you guys will see coming up
(20:55):
in the Massachusetts sectionabout how do you follow a good
chief who's set the bar.
That's harder than following aguy who is—.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, after you left that fire department it wasn't
six months later.
I know people that work there,we deal with them through
training and some other stuffand the thing that they started
asking is oh, do you miss themyet?
And that was it.
And the people they askedfinally said shut up and quit,
asking me that it pissed themoff so much that they kind of
(21:26):
missed the opportunity.
And then the new, and it justwasn't what.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So yeah, you know it's unfortunate they got
another chief.
I was an outside chief and Iwould love it if, if every chief
that would promote it was fromthe inside the organization, if
they had that ability to do that.
But I went in.
You guys have done as anoutside chief and you're you
know they didn't have anybodythat really that the mayor or
the council wanted or whoeverthat really the mayor or the
(21:53):
council wanted or whoever.
So you come in and they gotanother outside guy after me who
didn't have the same thoughtprocess that I had.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's
B-Shifter podcast.
Big thanks to Nick, pat andTerry for always keeping it real
.
Stay safe and we'll see younext time.
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