Strategic Shift in Cobb County

Send us a text

This episode is hosted by Josh Blum, Chris Stewart, and John Vance.

We want your helmet (for the AVB CTC)! Check this out to find out more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg5_ZwoCZo0

Sign up for the B Shifter Buckslip, our free weekly newsletter here: https://lp.constantcontactpages.com/su/fmgs92N/Buckslip

Shop B Shifter here: https://bshifter.myshopify.com

All of our links here: https://linktr.ee/BShifter

Please subscribe and share. Thank you for listening!

This episode was recorded on July 24, 2025.

The B Shifter podcast reviews audio from a Cobb County, Georgia structure fire where the incident commander exhibits excellent command presence during a strategic shift from offensive to defensive operations after experiencing structural collapse.

• Modern residential construction presents unique challenges including lightweight materials and extensive void spaces
• Well-executed command transfer demonstrates the value of a standardized command system
• Priority traffic about garage collapse initiated a chain of information-gathering from interior crews
• Multiple companies requesting to re-enter were respectfully denied after the IC evaluated risk vs. reward
• Excellent customer service shown when crews rescued a cat despite operating in defensive mode
• The "calm presence" of the incident commander created a foundation for fireground safety
• After Action Reporting system helps departments objectively evaluate performance rather than relying on subjective impressions
• Risk management isn't just a concept but the entire command system working together

Register for the 2025 Blue Card Hazard Zone Conference at bshifter.com where pre-conference workshops are filling up quickly.
 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 3 (00:05):
Hello and welcome to the B Shifter podcast.
Today, john Vance, josh Bloom,chris Stewart here and we're
going to be reviewing some audiofrom Cobb County, georgia, on a
defensive switch they switchfrom offensive to defensive and
they describe it as a smallhouse, but we'll show you some

(00:27):
pictures coming up.
It is a good-sized house.
I'm sure 100% of theirPreConnect could get to most of
it.
That's probably why theydefined it as small, but we'll
get into that in a little bit.
But some great audio,especially when we get to the
point where some of thecompanies want to go back in and
after they went defensive.
So we'll talk all about thattoday and review the audio.
We're glad that you're heretoday.

(00:49):
We are looking forward to ourconference.
I'm watching our numberscontinue to go up and classes
continue to almost get full.
How's that going, josh?

Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yeah, so we have plenty of seats in the
conference because we couldexpand that as much as we really
wanted to with the facilitiesthat we have there.
And then the pre-conferenceworkshops.
All five of those workshops arefilling up I think.
Maybe there's 20 seats left outof all of the workshops, I

(01:23):
think, or 25 possibly out of allfive workshops.
The Mayday workshop about fool,the critical thinking, decision
making with Chris and Eric.
That class always goes oververy well when people leave
there with a lot of smoke comingfrom their ears but from the
gears turning, like we didn'tthink about that.
There's work to do.

(01:44):
The safety trainer the trainerthat we've never really done
before.
I think that's well at theconference anyway.
That's that's going well.
The engine ones at the EOC classthat should be good because we
got, you know, some the partsand pieces of how do you go from

(02:04):
the first company officer,given that initial radio report
and establishing command, tobuilding it out and using Blue
Card as that platform and itjust melds really nicely right
in.
That's really switching to anEOC.
It'll be, you know, some frontend operations building in
division ops, building in yourcommand team, likely switching

(02:28):
into a command van and somediscussion on that.
We might throw in some like alittle hour piece in there about
like drone and drones andtechnology, like how can we use
that?
You know, really look like Nottalking about your EOC as much

(02:50):
or how you manage your EOC, butlike, really, how do you make
that transition, how do you getto that point?
And then, really, how do youtake this back to your fire
department or your region and doan exercise of you know, uh,
you know, engine one, give aninitial rate airport all the way
to the EOC, um, so that thefirst time you're doing it's not

(03:11):
the first time you're doing it.
Um.
So, and like we've talked aboutfor 10 or 12 years, we have
some excellent simulations thatyou can use for that.
So that you know the defensivetire distribution center is an
excellent simulation to use thatyou could build all of that out

(03:32):
.
When you start talking about youknow EPA and roads are going to
be shut down and and you know,maybe water contamination and
all of that.
So yeah, that's a.
So yeah, we haven't deliveredan expanded command class where
we really went that far.
So yeah, that class is alsofilling up.

(03:52):
And then if you're looking toget certified or got somebody
that you're looking to getcertified.
There's just a few seats leftin that certification lab.
It's that Monday, tuesday,wednesday and we're probably
going to intermingle onWednesday of the cert lab,
probably intermingle some ofthem into that expanded command
workshop in the afternoon.
To you know, fill out someother positions so they'll get a

(04:14):
little dose of that as well.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
That sounds great.
If you are interested in theconference and you haven't
signed up yet, go to our notes.
That's where the link is, andit not only gives you what the
schedule for the generalconference is going to be.
You'll get to meet ourinstructors there.
We have a cadre of over 23instructors that will be there.
So get a little idea of whatthey're going to be about, a

(04:38):
description on eachpre-conference session that
we're having and really whatthose classes are about, and
then you can sign up there too.
So check that out at ourbshiftercom site or you can
follow the link in the notes.
Looking forward to another greatone this year it's the first
day of the pre-conference isSeptember 29th and then October

(04:59):
2nd and 3rd is the generalconference, the big conference.
So we've got the big conferenceand the pre-conference.
Chris, I'm looking forward toyour strategic decision-making
class.
The material from that isfantastic and every time that I
talk to folks who go to that itreally does get their gears
turning.
I mean, josh, wasn't lying withthe smoke coming out of their
ears, because you know it givesthem a new perspective on

(05:22):
decision-making.
What would you say about theclass to somebody who hasn't
taken it before?

Speaker 5 (05:29):
I really think the strength of what it is that we
deliver and just so everybodyknows is that Eric and I are not
delivering anything new oranything that hasn't been
discussed previously, but we'retaking a more specific look at
strategic decision making andreally talking about how you
utilize strategic decisionmaking and then how you can

(05:51):
actually train, exercise andthen look at how you performed,
or how companies performed out,in the field with making
decisions, the criticaldecisions we have to make on the
front end of incidents.
And then so, when you leave,you've got a fantastic tool and
system to be able to utilize andsit down and drill with, either

(06:14):
at the individual or companylevel or at a battalion or
department level, to be able tohelp folks start to figure out
and utilize the same process,from the firefighter to the IC
number two, in how you think,how you make decisions and what
are the critical elements thatwe need to really be paying

(06:35):
attention to to make gooddecisions on the fire ground.
So all those things then gettied to effective tactics,
effective task level work thatneeds to take place.
So we've got a good system.
It's the blue card systemthat's been around for well
started in 1985, right.
So we're going to look at it ina more in-depth evaluative way

(07:02):
and give people a tool toactually go back and utilize and
improve how they think and whatthey do inside their
organization.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Nice Well, we're looking forward to that at the
2025 Blue Card Hazard ZoneConference right outside
Cincinnati.
Go to the link, check it out.
Anything else on the conference.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
Yeah.
So I just wanted to throw outthere the, the after action
reporting system we launched atlast year's conference and it's,
uh, like anything in the fireservice.
Um, you know it takes a littlebit, I think, for people to grab
onto it.
But organizations that havegrabbed onto it, you know they
have some.
I guess there's someorganizations in there.

(07:41):
They got like 25 working firesthat they've done you, you know,
completely after action on.
But I'll just throw out one kindof local here in Cincinnati,
just an hour north of Cincinnati, roughly Fire department's been
doing blue card about a yearand they, they had a working
fire, ended up having a victim.

(08:02):
They pull them out, victims endup living, all of that.
So they, they, if they didn'tgo through and do like an actual
formal review of the incident,everybody would have said oh,
this was fantastic, everybodydid good and they did, they did,
they did a nice job.
You know A to Z, really goodinitial radio report.
You know some good assignments.
The battalion did good calmSteve Lester's three C's.

(08:25):
I think they did pretty wellhitting all of those.
But you know, when they reallybroke it down and went through
the incident in a little bitmore detail, they identified
things that they can do betterright.
So, and that's what it's allabout is how do we improve or do
a little bit better tomorrowthan we did today?

(08:46):
So that's a big takeaway fromthe AAR and that's going good.
We've heard, you know, somefeedback from the end user and
we've made some adjustments toit based on that and we're super
excited that now we have theAAR program for the ARFF
certification program.
That is also going to be, youknow, available.
We're going to keep buildingout the AR.

(09:07):
So at the conference we'regoing to have like a big session
review, kind of like where wasit, where is it, where's it
going, and then Eric and Chriswill be presenting you know,
more detailed.
How do you use it all of thatfor anybody who you know is
connected to it and has anyquestions, and those who you
know is connected to it, has anyquestions and those obviously
that haven't connected to it yet.

(09:28):
And that program's available toeverybody.
That's an instructor.
So if you're an instructor youcan use the AR program.
It's just an added value tohaving your instructor license.

Speaker 5 (09:41):
Yeah, if you don't, if you don't have a system in
process to evaluate how you'redoing at actual incidents, then
all of your assumptions aboutyour performance are completely
and totally subjective.

(10:06):
Input radio traffic and then beable to evaluate the specific
command components and howyou're actually utilizing the
system, how effectively you'reutilizing the system.
And then, once you do that, thenyou can start to look at is oh,
what kind of decisions were wemaking?
Did we make really gooddecisions that directly impacted
the speed, quality andeffectiveness of completing the
tactical objectives based on theradio traffic that?

(10:28):
You have right, it's notdescribing and keeping track of
every task level element thattook place on the fire round,
but it's helping thatorganization do that.
So if you're a fire chief, opschief, a shift commander, a
battalion chief that reallyactually wants to know how
you're doing and how you'reperforming, this system gives

(10:49):
you that objective process to beable to do that and then to be
able to directly impact howyou're training people to
improve it and then see are weactually doing better, doing
better?
So the departments that haveslowly gotten into this and now
their eyes are like oh, wow,this really helps us figure this

(11:17):
stuff out rather than relyingon impressions and subjective
thoughts about it.
Let's face it we're humans.
There's a ton of bias in thatright, so this is a great tool
for that, and then hopefully wecan garner that same vision and
perspective in the R4.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Well, before we roll the audio here, I do want to
just put a call out to folks.
If you have audio such as thisthat you'd like us to feature,
we are looking for it.
Audio such as this that you'dlike us to feature, we are
looking for it.
So, all the time, if you have asuccess or a lesson learned,
even if it's through the AARprocess, share it with us.
We'd love to share it witheveryone else.

(11:54):
So our emails are available inthe notes as well.
You can send it to us pictures,helmet, cam, whatever you have.
Send it our way and we wouldlove to feature it, like the
audio that we're featuring todayfrom Cobb County, georgia and
Josh.
If you could help us set thestage for the audio that we're
about ready to listen to, we'vehad plenty of audio from Cobb

(12:17):
County.

Speaker 4 (12:18):
They're a well-connected blue card fire
department From the get-go.
They, you know, committed withinstructors.
They kind of set the stage ofwhat are we really going to do
with this?
They've trained folks that arein positions to make decisions
and they've taken it further, Ithink of you know connecting the

(12:39):
firefighters to you know kindof a why, why we do this.
And they're far enough down theroad with it now that it's
really become this is, this isthe Cobb County way, right?
I mean, you don't even have to,they don't.
You don't call it blue card.
This is the Cobb Countycommands system and this is how
we do business and this is howwe make decisions right.
So anybody that's familiar withCobb County knows, you know they

(13:02):
have plenty of people thatteach on the circuit all over
the place and they are fantasticwith the work that they do.
We've had no less probably thana half a dozen audio clips
we've listened to from there ofthem with successful rescues and
you know part of that, I think,comes back to the you know part
of that, I think comes back tothe, you know, decision-making

(13:23):
piece and and that they'rethey're, they're on the same
page and that they put togethera plan before the bell rings,
right and everybody's more onthe same page.
And when I say that I'm nottalking about SOG driven, engine
one does this and ladder onedoes that and engine two does
this, and all you have to do islisten to their audio and hear
that that is not their firedepartment.

(13:44):
They are 100% a.
We make assignments based offof critical factors, so kind of
a if this, then that kind ofpiece, right.
So they get there, evaluate theproblem, kind of make a little
bit of a diagnosis, deploy andif they need this is a perfect

(14:05):
example deploy.
And then if they need to adjust, they adjust as well.
So, yeah, this is another youknow great clip from them.
And it's good when we can showthe system being used and
exercising on a significant fireand then having a strategic
shift right, like you know, acouple rooms off.

(14:27):
Yeah, we can show, you know,the front end, the initial radio
report and all of that, whichis where it all starts and
that's a critical part and piece.
But you know this goes out.
You know a little bit furtherwith the strategic shift that
they do at the incident and youknow, I have to say, listening
to all the audio we've had fromcobb county and and many other

(14:48):
jurisdictions, uh, when theyhave a system, the tone is is
that the tone of the incidentcommander and the tone of the
companies is just in a differentplace?
Right, I mean this, thisincident commander.
When we listen to this it'slike, yeah, this is my job.
He makes good decisions, he'scalm and is clearly in command

(15:18):
of the event.
So, thanks to Cobb County forsending this to us and I think
it just makes it helps.
Other organizations you know,uh, that are working on getting
to the point where Cobb Countyis currently.
As far as you know the processand how well they do on the fire

(15:38):
ground and communications andgiving an assignment, everybody
being on the same page, and youknow all of those parts and
pieces of the system.
Not just it's, not just how itsounds, right, I mean, you can
listen to it and, like Chrissaid, well, that made sense
because they identified this, sothey're going to do that.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
So that kind of sets it up Engine 17 radio.
Isn't this radio report?

Speaker 6 (16:00):
Engine 17.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Engine 17 is going to be on scene of a two-story
small residential.
We've got heavy flame showingfrom the Bravo side garage and
Alpha side corner.
We're going to be out pulling apre-connect in the offensive
strategy.
You can go ahead and balancethe alarm.
Engine 17 will have command Outdoing a 360.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
10-4 on scene.
Two stories small residentialstructure have heavy flames on
the Bravo side garage and Alphaside Out pulling a line.
Alarm has already been balanced.

Speaker 7 (16:29):
How's my.
A's on scene 10-4.
Ready to battalion 5 on scene10-4.
Engine 13 How's my 80s on?
Scene, therefore Ready to havea battalion five on scene.
Therefore, h-13 is level onebehind bat, five Battalion, five
command.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Command.
Go ahead battalion five.

Speaker 7 (16:43):
Yeah, I'm clear.
You're working fire control onthe Bravo side in the garage.
You got extension in throughthe office side.
That's correct.
Give me a cam.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
In process of the 360 .
We're going to have a walkoutbasement on the Charlie side.
Got a pool in the back as well,completing 360.

Speaker 7 (17:04):
I'm clear.
Battalion 5, radio Battalion 5.
Ready to show Battalion 5 thecommand we're going to remain in
the offensive strategy.
Go ahead and haveaccountability with Battalion 5
Command on the off-side of thestructure.
Sorry, command to Engine 17.

Speaker 6 (17:21):
Engine 17,.
You're on command.

Speaker 7 (17:24):
Hey, just to clarify, what did you have the truck
assigned to?

Speaker 2 (17:28):
I haven't given them an assignment yet, but I'd
recommend certain.

Speaker 7 (17:31):
I'm clear we're going to try to hit it here with this
, get a two and a half out thereand work on some of that on
this command truck 17.

Speaker 6 (17:39):
All right command.

Speaker 7 (17:42):
Hey Jeremy, how's it looking through the office side
of the front door?
If we get a line on that, arewe going to be able to make it
here?

Speaker 6 (17:48):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 7 (17:51):
Okay, if you need to get your line in place, looks
like you can get it out ofEngine 3-1-4.
I'll have you go in firecontrol to the off-side.

Speaker 6 (18:02):
Engine 10,.
It's on 3-3.

Speaker 7 (18:04):
10-4, fire control off-side Command Engine 13.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Hey, go ahead and go in see if you can get a primary
on the structure, please Allright 13,.

Speaker 7 (18:18):
We'll go in on the off-side and get a primary the
structure.

Speaker 6 (18:20):
Please All right, 13, we'll go in on the outside and
get a primary Command to Engine10.

Speaker 7 (18:24):
Engine 17 to Command priority traffic.

Speaker 6 (18:26):
Last unit of priority traffic, go ahead, engine 17,
we've had a collapse in thegarage Looks like the wall is
about to get up towards us.

Speaker 7 (18:34):
I'm clear we've got a collapse.
You've done the sealing of agarage that's collapsed inside
itself.

Speaker 6 (18:38):
That's clear Command.
It's pushed the exterior of thewall out.
Looks like we might have acollapse out on the Bravo side
Coming up.

Speaker 7 (18:46):
Okay, we'll spike that guy off the line on the
Bravo side there.
Command to Engine 17.
Or correction Truck 17.
All to Engine 17.
Or.

Speaker 6 (18:55):
Correction Truck 17.
Go ahead, commander.

Speaker 7 (18:58):
Hey, give me a can on the interior Right now.

Speaker 6 (19:01):
we just have heavy smoke, light heat.
No flint visible as of rightnow.

Speaker 7 (19:09):
Okay, commander, engine 17.
Rescue 23, level warm with twoCommander engine 17.
Rescue 23, level 1 with 2.
Commander Rescue 23.
23,.
Go ahead, I'm going to have youon deck Alpha Italian 4, rescue
23 on deck Alpha Italian 4 ison scene, commander Italian 4.

(19:31):
Go ahead, you come to the car.
I'll have an assignment for you.
Command to Pump Operator Engine17.

Speaker 6 (19:42):
17, go ahead.

Speaker 7 (19:44):
Hey, you got a permanent water 342,.

Speaker 6 (19:47):
We just got permanent water.

Speaker 7 (19:50):
Squad 6,.
We'll see you in the fiveCommand to.
Engine 13.
Command to Engine 17.
Cor 5.
Command to Engine 13.
Command to Engine 17.
Correction Command to Truck, 17.

Speaker 6 (19:57):
Engine 17 to Command.
Is your traffic clear?

Speaker 7 (20:02):
It's 17,.
That's clear.
Have you seen any flames?

Speaker 6 (20:05):
Do you repeat your last?

Speaker 7 (20:07):
Commander Radio.

Speaker 6 (20:09):
Commander go ahead.

Speaker 7 (20:10):
Radio.
You can get emergency tones,please, commander Radio, go
ahead.
We're going to get emergencytones, please, commander.
I do Emergency tones.
Commander, all units work ininterior.
Vacate the structure, go aheadand exit the structure.
I'm going to try to reset thisout before we do anything more.
Bar behind exit Commander,truck 17.

Speaker 6 (20:30):
Truck 17, command, you got traffic.

Speaker 7 (20:33):
Yeah, I see you out of the building.
You got all your people.

Speaker 6 (20:36):
We're heading out the front door now.

Speaker 7 (20:39):
Command to Engine 13.

Speaker 6 (20:42):
13, go ahead.

Speaker 7 (20:42):
AHA, you're out of the structure, roger, that we're
out the side.

Speaker 6 (20:46):
All right, I'm clear.
Let me go here for a second.
All right.

Speaker 7 (20:48):
Command to Engine 17.
Engine 17,.
Go ahead, command.
I'm going to get you somebodyover there, we're all.

Speaker 6 (20:52):
Command to engine 17 engine 17 go ahead command.

Speaker 7 (20:57):
I'm going to get you somebody over there.
We're going to try to do somework with that deck gun here and
hit it on that alpha side inthat garage area 17 clear you're
sending somebody with a deckgun on engine 17 command to
truck 17 that's right commandyou got one of your guys.
You can print on that deck gunfor the pump operator on 17.
10-4.
Radio to Command.

(21:20):
Command to Radio go ahead10-minute Bud Smart.
Radio is clear on the 10-minuteBud Smart.
We still have advanced heavyfire.
It's working the attic throughthe structure Parcel collapse.
On the Delta side we'recurrently in a defensive mode
10-4.
It's 23,.
Level 1, Parcel collapse.
On the Delta side we'recurrently in a defensive mode
Tower it's 23, level 1, with 3.

(21:41):
Tying 4 to command.
Go ahead Tying 4.
Everything looks good on theCharlie side here.
We got a Hold on a minute there.
We do have one of the cats inthe back window here.
If you have someone availableto ladder, we could probably get
it out.
Okay, how's that side of thestructure?
Does it look stable?
10-4.
I don't see any active fire onthe basement or first floor at

(22:03):
this time, just some smoke.
Okay, I'll get a crew overthere.
Command Hitchin' 10.
Engine 17, this is Command.
It'll be all right if we openthe deck gun.
Yeah, go ahead and hit it onthat alpha side.
We may have to move to aerialhere in a second Go for engine
10.
Hey Lou, can you see if you canassist Battalion 4 with getting

(22:23):
that cat out of the window?
10-4.
Radio to command.
Command radio go ahead.
When needed.
The homeowner is currently at863 Paces Farm.
Okay, you can have her make herway.
Tell her to look for the redpickup with the blinky lights in
front of her house.
So far.
Matt Ops.
We'll see Commander Matt Ops Goahead.

(22:47):
Have you set up rehab on theoffice lot?
Matt Ops, clear Commander Truck17.

Speaker 6 (22:55):
Commander truck 17.
Go ahead, Commander.

Speaker 7 (22:58):
Hey, can you work your way to your aerial to get
it set up?
Work with engine 17,.
Get a water slot and forceCommander slot 7.

Speaker 6 (23:07):
Go ahead.

Speaker 7 (23:09):
Give me a recon over there on the Delta and Charlie's
side and see if there'sanything we can do before we set
the ladder truck up.
As far as fire control orsearchable space, we haven't
checked.

Speaker 6 (23:21):
Battalion 4 to Command.

Speaker 7 (23:23):
Go ahead, Battalion 4 .
There still is some searchablespace on the main floor living
room.
I don't see any active fire onthe Bravo Charlie corner.
Truck 17 to command.
I see him Command.
We're getting out of the firstfloor.
It's already been completed.

(23:44):
We're all clear.
Okay, we're going to call itgood at that point this guy was
a homeowner.
He said he's confirmedeveryone's out of the house.
There's no one in there.
Come on 7th.
I'm going to ask.
He's got with the homeowner.
He said he's confirmedeveryone's out of the house.
There's no one in there.
Squad 7, come in, go ahead,squad 7.
There's searchable space hereon this Charlie Delta side on

(24:07):
the first floor.
Okay, we're good.
I've met with the homeowner.
He's confirmed that there's noone in there.
He's certain of it.

Speaker 6 (24:12):
We're going to remain in defensive on it.
Squad 7, come in Command inthere.
He's certain of it.
We're going to remain defensiveon it.

Speaker 7 (24:16):
Come on 7th Command Command to Squad 7, go ahead,
hey Chief, as far as firecontrol, it looks like it's all
in the attic.
Doesn't look like there's muchon the second floor.
We should try to get up therebefore it seals.
Mike, I'm clear on what yousaid about the second floor of
the attic.
I think as much as we've gotgoing on right here, we're going
to stick with exterioroperations.

Speaker 6 (24:35):
Okay, 4.
17 Bravo to truck.
17 Bravo Go ahead.
You getting ready to set up thetruck.

Speaker 7 (24:46):
Command to Battalion 4.
Go ahead for Battalion 4.
Make sure there's no one aroundthe collapsed area back there.
We're about to set this truckup and this Bravo sidewall is
looking worse.
Copy that we're all leaving theCharlie side at this time.
Battalion 4 to Command.
Command Battalion 4, go ahead.

(25:06):
All personnel are clear of theCharlie and Delta corners,
except for the line in operation.
I'm clear, thank you Radio tocommand.
Commander radio go ahead 20minutes benchmark.
Radio.
I'm clear 20 minutes benchmark.
We're still on the defensivestrategy.
Active fire is shown from theroofline.

Speaker 6 (25:29):
Come on Command to 17,.
Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Command to 17, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
I'm going to need to this one and, as josh pointed
out, very calm.
Let's talk about the structurefirst.
Uh, tell us about this house,josh yeah.

Speaker 4 (25:48):
So when I, when we first listened to this, I, like
the two of you, was like, uh, uh, like, what's really going on
here?
And then when I looked up theaddress and found this picture,
it's like, oh, this is a littledifferent.
And even so, even looking atthis picture, uh, you know,
given that size up, it's like,yeah, it's a maybe small medium

(26:08):
house.
Uh, if it's in, you know, intheir area, my area, most all of
us that are on here today'sarea this place probably has a
basement in it.
Right, they make additionalliving space.
A takeaway from this is, whenyou look at that roof line,

(26:31):
there is who knows how many voidspaces in that roof area.
The fire started on that AlphaBravo side, on that, uh, alpha
bravo side so in a second we'lltake a look at that picture of
that side and it's a very largegarage that, um, you know,
towards the charlie side, has a,uh, bonus room maybe, if you
will, that sometimes they make abedroom or you know, whatever.
So, pretty much so, that alphabravo corner, all the way to
that charlie side, you know, onthe second floor level, you know

(26:54):
, was involved and burning andwell into the roof.
So we just wanted to show somepictures before we really, you
know, got into the nuts andbolts of how it went when we, as
we listened to it and you knowmy view of how it went when we
listened to it is they did anice job.

(27:14):
The people in key positions dida nice job and everybody on the
fire ground as I listened tothis, they were, for the most
part, on the same page.
They understand that we have asystem, they understand that we
have an organization, theyunderstand how we're going to
work and when things werecommunicated, people, you know,

(27:35):
acknowledged it.
So I'll kind of, well, before Ijump into the initial radio
report piece Chris, do you gotanything?
Before we jump into thebreaking it down a little bit
further, no, I think, yeah, no,I do.

Speaker 5 (27:48):
So.
The size up of this?
You're just simply talkingabout size up and size up of the
structure, right, size, heightand occupancy type.
Obviously, this is a house, weknow that right.
But the size and height?
So it's two-story, likely witha basement, and once you get
around to that Alpha Bravo side,you see that this rascal is

(28:10):
pretty deep, and so this has gota decent size interior space
standing over a basement and,it's likely, wood framed
underneath all that brick veneer, and so there's a lot to be
thinking about here with regardsto we've got a decent fire in

(28:32):
here.
How long is that?
How long is this building goingto tolerate it?
And do we have enough time toget some of the stuff done we
want to do with regards to thelife safety and, uh, and then,
and and fire control, uh, um, inthis building, right?
So time overlaying, uh, thesizing up of this, uh, the
structure itself, structureitself, um, this is a, uh, this

(28:55):
is a.
This is a good one to actuallytalk about, and I think they did
a fantastic job with it, and Ithink we'll kind of break that
down as to why this was a goodjob.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
When, uh, the command transfer happened, starting
with with that, you know, afterthe size up the IC, the BC
coming in wasn't sure on theposition and function of, I
believe, ladder 17.
So just this week we were doinga class and the BCs here ride
by themselves and they weresaying, well, we don't ride with

(29:27):
somebody.
Well, here's an example wherethey are actually riding with
somebody.
It's a two person team pullingup and even those guys maybe
don't get all those assignments.
So he did a really good job atat coming back and asking what
that assignment was and and tellus the importance of doing that
.
We know he's filling out hiscommand worksheet, but but what?

(29:48):
Why is that?
Before he even gets the ballrolling on anything else?
Why is that so important?

Speaker 5 (29:53):
So for me, I think that the IC number one set the
stage with an effectivecommunication of that on-scene
or initial radio report right Inwhat is going on and what are
they doing, and then beginningthe command process right,
beginning the command processright, and so after that's done,

(30:19):
the initial action's takenplace of getting a line to
wherever it was that they wantedto start to address that garage
fire, and then I'm going to becompleting the 360.
And during that 360 is when IC2of a time five shows up and
they use the system the way it'ssupposed to be used in that
transfer of command right.
The initial uh part of thatcommunication is the unit

(30:42):
rundown and because he only knewthe position and function of
engine 17, wasn't sure theposition and function of truck
17 or ladder 17, uh asked thatquestion and got it clarified
and very simply IC number onesaid, yeah, I haven't given them
assignment yet.
Here's what I recommend.
I think it was search is whatthat assignment was.

(31:05):
And IC two says, okay, cool,got it, thank you.
And then they continue thetransfer of command with their
can report, essentially isgetting the 360.
Hey, here's what I'm seeing as Iwalk around this.
And that's acknowledged, andthen IC2 grabs a hold of it as

(31:25):
the incident commander and thenstarts to move forward with
their incident action plan andthat plan is clearly
communicated through theassignments for truck 17 and
then the next arriving company.
So it was utilizing the systemto get really good information
out that actually helps that ICmove forward with what needs to

(31:48):
happen here to get fire controland get it all clear in this
thing.
And then the way he did it, um,his matter of fact, comfortable
, confident tone, uh, and andwe'll go to to kind of some of
bruno's stuff, that cool commandthing, uh, those cool command
things that he's actuallydemonstrating, um, and those are

(32:10):
the things we described.
The other one is a little bitof grit.
No, he knows and understandswhat's what's going on here and
has a clear idea of what they'regoing to be comfortable doing
with moving forward and makesgood decisions in doing that I
want to back up just for asecond and hit that.

Speaker 4 (32:26):
So the 360, identifying walkout basement.
Fantastic that there's a poolin the backyard.
During the day they probablysee it, but at nighttime you
know that that sometimes becomesan issue for.
So that that was.
That was another excellentpiece as far as the 360 goes and
I'll jump to that the commandtransfer piece of that truck 17,

(32:46):
.
You know everybody says alllevel one, they're sitting there
doing nothing, they're doingnothing whatever and it's like.
No, the companies that areresponding on the front end of
an incident have a pretty goodidea of what their assignments
likely could be to support us,addressing fire control and
primary searches, right Basedoff of an initial radio report,

(33:08):
a follow-up report, what theysee when they get there, when
they're pulling into the block,if they're.
You know in that, you knowsecond, third, fourth, fifth due
, you know position.
So you know, in this case thattruck had an idea of what the
assignment could be.
They didn't just go and do it.
But the critical part is thatit was communicated so that the

(33:30):
incident commander and everyoneelse knew their position and
function.
So the incident commander's,like else, knew their position
and function.
So the incident commander islike okay, I know where they're
going to operate and everybodyelse knows where they're going
to operate and I'm checking offthat this work is being
completed.
There's no mystery of whetherit's being completed or not,
because it's been communicated.

(33:50):
I said, I told you that's what Iwant you to do.
You acknowledge that's whatyou're going to do and then
that's what I want you to do.
You acknowledge that's whatyou're going to do and you know.
Then that's what happens.
And that's why, as you listen,as we listen to this going on
further and further, uh, youknow, command never one time had
a, had a, I called the wrongcompany or it never seemed as if

(34:14):
they were wondering who iswhere right.
So there was at one point, Ithink, five or six assignments
were made and commanded.
A fantastic job communicatingwith those people every single
time.
And another piece of that isnot one time did I hear any
radio traffic have to berepeated.
Well, that's because we use theorder model, and the order

(34:37):
model is that verification of.
I communicated to you, youacknowledged what I asked you to
do and now I suspect and expectthat that is what you're going
to do, unless you cannot do it.
So you know, all of thosethings are key parts and
components of the blue card andcommand system that help an

(35:00):
organization be able to deployand be as effective as Cobb
County Fire Department is inthis case.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
And really less than the first 10 minutes had the
biggest changes on this incident.
From the time they got there togoing defensive was before the
first 10 minute notification andit started with the priority
traffic.
Why is that priority trafficimportant?
And you could see the gearsturning already with the IC,

(35:33):
because then he starts to getcan reports.

Speaker 4 (35:36):
Yeah.
So I think a piece of that is,you know, the I want.
I want a whole bunch offirefighters that are
professional, that want to dothe job and want to do it to the
best of their ability.
Right, and I am not going tosay aggressive or any of that,
I'm just going to say it justlike that.
That's what I want and in thiscase, that is what they have and

(36:01):
people are going to go as faras they need to go or where they
feel comfortable going, basedoff of making good decisions
when they operate within asystem and they've been trained
on the critical thinking partsand pieces.
So the priority traffic piecehere that came from engine 13

(36:22):
priority traffic it goteverybody's attention on the
fire ground and it's like, okay,what's going on here?
I don't think command wassurprised by the priority
traffic, probably based off ofthe amount of fire that they
were seeing in their experience,you know, on that corner from
the garage, and they said youknow, we, we've had a collapse.
And then they went further andsaid it looks like this wall is,

(36:44):
you know, pushing out, so thatthat set that stage for uh,
everybody.
That like, okay, there's there,there's a lot more going on
here, but the priority trafficpiece goes back to, you know,
many of the other podcasts thatwe have of you know what are you
about to say?
Well, when I say prioritytraffic, that means I have
priority over everything else onthe fire ground, except for a

(37:05):
mayday, and nobody else is goingto cut in or say anything.
And command is saying okay,engine 13 said that they have
priority traffic.
I'm looking at my worksheetwhere are they operating at and
what are they about to say?
And then everybody else on thefire ground is listening to that
.
As far as, is there more workfor me to do here?
Or what is this?
So priority traffic istypically a red flag that

(37:28):
requires typically some sort ofchange to the incident action
plan and, in some cases, youknow, a change in strategy.
Though the change in strategydidn't happen, you know, right
away here they, you know, didsome other work as far as all
clears and checking to see whatelse they could do before they
changed strategy.

Speaker 5 (37:45):
So that priority traffic was.
That occurred here wasimportant information for not
only the IC to know andunderstand but for the companies
working in and around Engine 17to know and understand.
Right, and so they chose allright.
No, I see something importanthere.
I'm going to use prioritytraffic, used exactly the way it

(38:08):
was supposed to be used, andthen communicated those critical
elements to the IC.
The IC then needs to take thatinformation and process it and
say okay, to what degree doesthis need to change the incident
?
And really the choices are fromnothing to extremely
drastically change like acomplete one, aid, right.
And so he processed thatinformation and didn't make a

(38:30):
huge change in the beginning,but started to recognize okay,
uh, I want to see if we can getsome all clears in places.
I want to make sure that we'vedone everything, uh, that we
need to do, um, but if thisdoesn't get better fast, I'm,
I'm making the change.
So it totally set that, uh,battalion five I see number two

(38:51):
up to be able to make a changeand utilize the system the way
it was.
And again, it was done in avery matter of fact way.
There was something significanthappened on the fire ground.
It got commuted throughpriority traffic.
Nobody yelled, nobody screamed,nobody panicked, nobody ran
around in circles and didn'tknow what to do.

(39:12):
Right, they were comfortablewith it.
I saw it.
Here's what's going on.
Let's make some decisions basedon it.
Use the process for it and itwas a big deal, but it wasn't a
big deal and that's fantastic.

Speaker 4 (39:26):
And I want to highlight here because we get a
lot of questions sometimes aboutthe one, two, three progress
reporting and in this case IC2did a really good job with that
of communicating with the othercompanies that were operating
inside the building and aroundthe building, as you said, chris
, of where are you with allclears, where are you with fire
inside the building?
Battalion four where are youwith the condition of the

(39:50):
building right, so that one, two, three progress reporting is
communicating with you know thecompanies first that are doing
things that have the biggestimpact on us being successful on
the event and those that areclosest, really you know, to the
hazard.
So it's that helping the IC tomake decisions.
So they see what they see,they've heard what they've heard

(40:11):
, but now they're trying togather a little bit more
information from those othercompanies operating at the
incident before they make thebig shift to a defensive fire.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
As you guys are pulling up to a structure like
this, because I couldn't helpbut think you know so much of
what we see still in the fireservice and even some of the
audio that we've featured latelyhave been in older buildings.
This is a fairly modern or verymodern house lightweight
construction, probably big openareas, you know, not a lot of

(40:44):
separation, as Chris pointed out, the void spaces those are all
critical fire ground factors too.
I mean that really gives us avery small envelope to get
searches done to try to find theseat of the fire to make an
impact.
Let's just discuss for a secondhow different this is from
pulling up to a 1950s styleRambler house or something like

(41:07):
that.

Speaker 4 (41:10):
Chris, why don't you hit that?
From all the work that Phoenixdid early on with building
collapse and impact of fire, andwork they did with Nest early
on and now where it's at, withUL, what do we know Based?

Speaker 5 (41:24):
on research.
So we go ahead of.
Prior to.
All of that is what VincentDunn recognized about trust
roofs and started communicatingvery early.
And then, when Jeff Griffin'sincident happened here in
Phoenix, where he falls into the, the attic from operating up on

(41:44):
the roof on a lightweight tileroof home, that we start to
recognize the fragility, if youwill, of these homes when
they're under fire load right.
And so when we get there earlyand we start sizing this up, I
want us to recognize that's abig house.

(42:05):
I want us to recognize thosesignificant attic space.
It's put together withlightweight construction.
It's got a concrete tile roofon top of it.
There's a little metal thereover the front porch, but I'm
really worried about those big,long spaces and those heavy
weights Now that buildingconstruction is built to

(42:26):
tolerate, is built to managethat weight.
But what they've done isthey've used math to their
absolute best ability so thatwhat is the least amount of
material I can put in this thingto have it hold up meet the
building code requirements tosupport everything that's on top
of it and the structure itself.

(42:47):
So how do they do?
Why do they try to use aminimum amount of material?
Because it's less costly, right.
So all those things togethercreates this formula that when
we show up, we need to be ableto recognize these things and be
able to say, okay, I recognizethat.
That's the situation here.

(43:09):
This is the occupancy orbuilding that we're actually
dealing with Now.
Based on the fire and smokeconditions, is that becoming
problematic for us?
And in this case, had a garagefire, likely garage fire that
extends up into that attic spacelivable space above the garage
and then the attic above it,right, and really starts to

(43:30):
degrade the structural integrityof the home, right.
So they get there, have adecent amount of fire, start
making a fire attack, start todo the support things that are
going on in and around it,getting it all clear, that type
of thing and this structurestarts changing right, because
it starts giving away, becausetime the amount of time that

(43:54):
it's been burning right is itbecomes a critical factor.
So we're starting to put allthese things together, assess
this and be able to figure outwhat it is that we should be
doing that's both reasonable andmost effective at this, at this

(44:16):
, and, like Bruno said,typically the fastest, most
effective way to do something isalso the safest right.
So they're measuring that theyactually put that into place.
This is a home that has abasement.
It's got a walkout basement ontop of all these other things,
but through their assessment andtheir size up and their 360 and
all that, they determine, yeah,there is a basement.
The basement isn't an our issue.

(44:41):
The fire where it is, whereit's going, where it's extended
to, that's our issue right now,and they start to deal with that
.
So there's this whole systemand process of size up and
evaluation and why does itmatter and when does it matter?
That is important that youactually need to exercise it.
You actually need to teachpeople how to do.
It's not intuitive.
Nobody's born with it, or veryfew people maybe are born with
it right, and so it's somethingthat, from firefighter to ic,

(45:04):
needs to actually be, uh, workedon so he, uh, he gets that
priority traffic because theyhave the collapse in the garage.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
It starts to to push the wall out.
Then he immediately calls andgets a can report and I think
Chris, you just put it he'sputting the puzzle together,
there's pieces that he'sstarting to put together.
So he gets that can report.
Let's start there and then howthat quickly escalates to a
defensive strategy to adefensive strategy.

Speaker 5 (45:35):
Yeah, so from what I hear listening to this is
acknowledgement of that seriousinformation.
And then, okay, now what'sgoing on around it?
How far is this extended to?
What impact is it having on theother companies that are
working on the first floor, thatare working on fire control,
that are doing the things insideand out that need to be done?
And it's clear that some workhas been done.

(45:59):
It's clear that all clears haveactually been made on the
searchable space on the insideof this house.
It's clear that they're tryingto figure out.
All right, can we put water onthis from the inside, not just
the outside?
And all those things matter.
The IC is not going to make ahuge change here until he gets

(46:21):
the perspective of everybodyelse in working around them,
because he assesses this isn'tlike an abandon the structure or
abandon your position type ofincident.
So he gets that information.
And the critical part of askingfor those CAN reports is the
needs.
Yeah, I want to know what'sgoing on, I want to know what

(46:42):
you've been doing, but what doyou actually need inside there?
Is there something else we cando to fix this or make this
better based on what we've beencommunicating, or is the need of
all right?
There really isn't anything wedo.
We need to change positions and,in this case, change strategy
to be able to do this moresafely and effectively.

(47:03):
And what are we actually goingto potentially write off and
lose by doing that?
Key element there is what havewe searched?
And so use that information.
Okay, now I feel like we're ina comfortable place.
Ultimately, he's going toverify that search information
with what the homeowner is goingto tell him there's some

(47:24):
validation between those twothings and then makes his
decision on the strategy andthen going through the incident
and reaffirms that decision andreaffirms that decision and
reaffirms that strategy with no,we're going to stay defensive.
I'm very comfortable with whatwe're doing and I don't believe
we're going to save uh, we'renot going to save anything else

(47:47):
that we haven't alreadyevaluated yeah, so I think a
valuable piece there was.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
You know, command gave the assignment to Battalion
4 and then again asked Squad 7to you know, check, like you
said, chris, about can we stopthis fire from the inside.
You know, give me someinformation on that.
And you know, as far as thesearch piece goes, you know that
Truck 17 came back and gavevaluable information of.
We already already got anall-clear on the entire first

(48:14):
floor, right.
So that was just like are-verification piece and that's
just everybody operating on thesame page, right, everybody
listening to the radio,everybody being on the same page
at the event.
And you know that bit oftraffic from Truck 17 was
valuable and command making thedecision of RUC-17 was valuable

(48:37):
in command making the decisionof okay, we now I have double
verified that we've alreadycompleted a search in the
searchable space that squadseven and battalion four
identified.
So let's, let's move on.
I don't want to jump past thethe you know the customer
service piece that when theyidentify the cat in the window
that they went and address that,right, I mean people, pets,
pills, pictures, you like all ofthose parts and pieces, right,

(48:59):
it's like they, they identifiedthat and then they address that
to solve that problem.
It's a, it's a critical factor,right, it's, it's somebody's
pet.
So, yeah, when, when you'reusing all the parts and pieces
of the system all the time, youknow, I think, I think this is

(49:19):
this is what it ends up soundinglike, right, what we, what we
arrived to and what the criticalfactors are, we only have an
impact on what we can do withthem.
You know, after we arrivedthere, what we pull up to we
have no impact on.
And in this case, you know allthe critical factors, and the
fire load and the fact of thecollapse were all critical

(49:40):
factors.
That command was makingdecisions on.
Wod 7 reported what all thoseother companies reported, that
like 12 or 14 minutes had passed, when they, you know, actually
make a strategic shift.
Not counting how much time hadpassed, you know from the time

(50:01):
this fire started, because youknow, when we look at the, when
the engine pulled out of thefire station, they reported a
header from a distance, right?
So I mean it was burning forwho knows five, seven, 10
minutes before the firedepartment even got notified.

Speaker 5 (50:20):
If we want to know the value of rescuing the cat,
ask the homeowner afterwards,ask Mrs Smith afterwards, how
important that was right.
They'll be very frank and thatmay have outweighed the vast
majority of the things that wecould, we could have saved there
.
So that's that stuff mattersand it was.
It was the right thing to do.

(50:41):
I want to talk about that, thatdecision and the change in
strategy, going from offensiveto defensive, and because
afterwards there's some criticalthings that actually occur here
with the companies, which Ithink is absolutely okay and so
he makes the decision based onthat critical information.

(51:03):
It started with the prioritytraffic and then got that
further information from the CANreports of all the companies
working, said no, we're going tochange strategies, we're going
to move from offensive todefensive.
And then utilizes an effectivesystem, the system to be able to
do that and that lets everybodyknow no, here is the change,

(51:25):
here is the strategy that we'regoing to operate in moving
forward.
And then I want to be able toaccount for the position and
function of everybody who wasworking in and around that
building uh, afterwards.
So he does a very nice job ofdoing that and being able to
account for that and then startsto give clear information about
okay, here's our defensiveinstant action plan.
Moving forward, we changestrategies.

(51:47):
All right, here's what now,what we're going to do, as, as
we move forward, you havebattalion 4, who's assigned to
the Charlie side.
You have Quad 7 that I think isworking in and around them.
You may have another company Ithink it was Engine 10, maybe
that got the cat.
So there's companies in there.

(52:09):
Communications to the IC thathey, I see searchable space on
the first floor, I seesearchable space on the second
floor.
Or I see space on the secondfloor that doesn't have bad
conditions but the fire'sburning in the attic above it.
We might be able to get upthere and slow this thing down.
And each one of thosecommunications, I think, is an

(52:33):
important communication.
I don't think any of that isunneeded, unnecessary or
inappropriate.
Those companies are showing upthere to try and make this
incident better and when theysee something they are
recognizing it, they'recommunicating it.
The IC is processing it, makinga decision and saying yes or no
, and in this case each one ofthe times was no, but that no

(52:56):
was validated.
No, we've truck 17, said theyalready got an all clear on the
first floor.
So we're not going to duplicatethat effort.
And I've got the RP here withme who is clearly stating that
they're confident that nobody isin there as well.
Not just the RP's opinion, buttruck 17 saying no, we had

(53:20):
already actually gone throughthat.
And then squad seven, I think itwas saying no, we can get up on
that second floor and I can getwater up into that attic and
the IC is going OK, I understandthat, I appreciate that, but
we're not going to save anythingelse.
We're still going to have thesame outcome if we try and take
that risk.
So we're not going to do itright.
And so I want to show.

(53:42):
Like Josh said earlier, I wantto show up with companies that
are ready to go to work.
They're chomping at the bit,they're looking for
opportunities to go to work andthey're going to communicate
those opportunities when it'sright to do so, and the IC is
going to make a decision yes orno and then stick to it.
Those companies are going totake that answer, whatever it is

(54:03):
positive or negative in theirview.
Right and go.
Okay, I got it Understand Inthis case.
Yeah, we were not going to goup there and do that In this
case, yeah, we were not going togo up there and do that Perfect
.
Then we all move on, and sothat was an excellent use of the
system and it was an excellentthe leadership component of

(54:25):
actually listening to yourcompanies.
I understand what you'retelling me.
Here's the decision I'm makingand this is why Because in the
moment, because he had theopportunity to do it, that's how
you build.

(54:45):
That's how you build aneffective command culture and
trust between ICs and crews andcompany officers.

Speaker 4 (54:52):
That's the way it's done.
So I think that's a really nicejob.
I just had one last thing Iwanted to hit and that was when
they went defensive and theywere going to put the ladder
pipes up and all of that.
That they did a nice job ofmaking sure that defensive means
you're not in the direct hazardzone.
It doesn't necessarily meanthat I'm not inside of the

(55:13):
building, it's I'm not in thehazard zone.
So they did a nice job ofmaking sure that everybody was
all clear on that Charlie sidebefore they started flowing
water, you know, onto this, andthat everybody was out of the
collapse zone.
So that that they did a nicejob communicating that between
command and battalion four andthat they were, that they were
out of that area.
And then I think that paintsthe picture and it just reminds

(55:35):
everybody else in the fireground like, yeah, we don't need
to be standing next to thebuilding, I don't need to go
break out that window, I don'tneed to pull down this piece of
siding.
We're not operating in the hotzone in no way, shape or form
when we're defensive.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
So one thing to ask is whether you put this thing
out from an interior position inthat attic fire or you put it
out from defensive positionsoutside the hazard zone with you
know we see in the picture herewith a ladder pipe.
I know there was atwo-and-a-half flown from the
exterior.
There was a deck gone at somepoint.
Whether you're doing it fromany of those, the question is

(56:21):
does any of those actions or anyof those positions change the
overall outcome?
Nothing would have changed Ifwe would have put that attic
fire out from the second floor,from positions up there.
We're still likely burning avast majority of that roof off
or at least burning up a goodamount of those trusses.
I still don't think they wouldhave been very successful.
If they're doing that, it'shighly likely they wouldn't have

(56:44):
been successful doing that.
The outcome's the same on all ofit.
So if the outcome's going to bethe same, let's figure out a
way to minimize the amount ofrisk and the amount of exposure
that the firefighters are goingto have to be able to do that,
right?
That's actual risk management.
That's identifying what is lost, and I'm not going to accept
any more risk for what hasalready been lost right.

(57:07):
So anybody that might beconfused about risk management,
maybe that can help them infiguring it out and that risk
management was connected to asystem.
It was connected to size up onthe front end of it and on the
back side of it it was connectedto strategy and action and it
was a piece in between thathelps us come to those decisions

(57:27):
, and this was a good example ofactually being able to use it.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
Yeah, that's excellent, chris.
There's been a ton of talkabout that with the whole risk
management thing.
You know a lot of opinionsflying around about that and
it's like no, risk managementisn't one slide and risk
management is not just somewords.
Risk management is the entiresystem right, everything from
deployment to your size up tothe critical factors to.

(57:53):
I mean, it is the entire systemright, and it's just where then
?
Where does that fit into?
Where does all of that lead youto with the risk management?
It's all.
It's all a giant puzzle, and ifany one piece is missing, you
did not complete the puzzle.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
So all right, you guys have time for a timeless
tactical truth.

Speaker 5 (58:16):
I came for the timeless tactical truth.
Here we go.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
Timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunicini.
In the face of chaos, the IC'scalm presence becomes the
foundation of fire, groundsafety.
Getting that calm presence?
What does it take to get therefor a new and or experienced IC?

Speaker 5 (58:40):
I think, first and foremost, it's the focus and
understanding that that's theexpectation, like that's what I
want to be, that's where I wantto go, that's how I want to
execute this strategic levelcommand position.
And then what does it take?
It takes deliberateunderstanding.

(59:01):
It takes training, experienceand practice to actually be able
to do that.
You need to have some seriousincidents, some critical
decision experience to be ableto get there.
And then you got to have.
You actually have to beknowledgeable and you have to be

(59:27):
have some foundation ofcompetency in that, because what
spawns from that is theconfidence.
And when you have a level ofconfidence in the process, the
decision-making, the work thatneeds to happen on the fire
ground, the time that it's goingto take to actually do that,

(59:49):
the respect for the effort thatit's going to actually take to
do that, you put all thosethings together and that
confidence then allows you tomove through this process
without elevating your anxietyin a raised tone of voice, in a

(01:00:17):
higher pitch, in speaking morequickly, in rushing through
things or feeling like I need toskip this to get to that right.
There's like this long drawn outlaundry list of things that
actually help us get better atthat.
But the critical element isthat's what we want out of our
ICs, and then a system that doesa pretty good job of selecting

(01:00:38):
and positioning those people toactually be able to do that or
who can do that, to put them inthose positions right.
And forcing people who aren'tready for that into those
positions is never good for theorganization.
It's never good for thatindividual.
So, like I don't know, there'sprobably only like 80 or 120

(01:01:00):
hours worth of stuff we couldtalk about on what it takes to
get there.
But that's, and that's whatthis, that this, what this this
guy on battalion five did, right, like he executed any news.
That's what he was supposed toexecute.

Speaker 4 (01:01:14):
Yeah, I think that and that just pushes right over
to everybody else, right, likehe executed any news.
That's what he was supposed toexecute.
Yeah, I think that, and thatjust pushes right over to
everybody else, right?
When calm is contagious, holdthat whole thing.
I know it's worn out, but it'slike it's true.
It's when you're confident inwhat you're doing, what you're
saying, the decisions you'remaking, it rubs off onto other
people, right?
So I think something thatbecomes a challenge is that

(01:01:39):
accidental success on the fireground when you have, when
you've made things work but youdidn't evaluate through some
sort of after action of how wellyou really did.
It's just, we got out of thatkind of thing, or high five, we
did a really good job thing whenit really matters, and even

(01:02:02):
seasoned incident commandersthat use a system, the incidents
where those folks would getlike a little I don't want to
say uncomfortable, but likeantsy in the seat, a little bit
Like I'm not.
I'm not a hundred percentconfident of where we're going
with this little piece or thisincident or whatever.
The people who've had thataccidental success go go to the

(01:02:26):
uh, not so calm, right?
They?
They start screaming becausethey don't know where people are
assigned, they aren'tcomfortable with the incident or
the events that are occurring.
They don't know what to do next.
So, um, yeah, you're.
You're not just born with thatcalm presence.
Cool, it's a cucumber thing,right?
I mean, it's a, like chrisidentified, it's a.
It's a very long drawn outpiece of.

(01:02:48):
They.
Don't pin a badge on you todayand say you're an incident
commander and you're going to becalm and so on automatically.
It's a process and having aprocess and a system is a key
part, I think, to the foundationof the calm presence of an
incident commander.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
All right.
Well, we would like to thankCobb County for their audio once
again and for sharing that withus and just excellent work on
behalf of the ICs, the officers,the firefighters there, and we
really appreciate theirleadership position and sharing
that with the fire service.
They do that so often withinthat organization.
I think it's just another greatmarquee organization that we

(01:03:32):
work with and get to learn fromthem constantly.
So we want to thank them forsharing that with us today.
Also, thanks to Josh Bloom,chris Stewart and thank you for
joining us today on the BShifter podcast.
We'll talk to you again nextweek, thanks.