December 4, 2025 • 54 mins
This episode features Josh Blum, Scott Williams and John Vance.
Sample Roadway incident SOG: https://bshifter.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Sample-Roadway-Incident-SOG-December-2025.pdf
Traffic Incident Management Training Here
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We dig into why roadway incidents are an IDLH and how to protect crews with smart blocking, better PPE, and interagency alignment. Case studies from Ohio, Kentucky, Texas, and Lubbock anchor the lessons and lead to concrete steps any department can use today.
• Applying a fireground risk model to highways
• The Ohio near miss
• Springdale LODD, grief, and culture change
• Lubbock fatalities and helmet side-impact protection
• Best-practice blocking and positioning
• Send more apparatus, leave together, clear quick
• TIM training options and regional coordination
• Breakaway ANSI vests, rescue helmets, seat belts
• Assigning a lookout and marine horn alerts
• Digital alerting with HAAS Alert Safety Cloud
• Writing, teaching, and enforcing the roadway SOP
• Accountability, buy-in, and police partnerships
About Scott Williams:
Scott has been in the fire service for 30 years and is a certified Ohio State Fire and Emergency Service Instructor II and a Live Fire Instructor. He is a Blue Card Instructor, a national registered paramedic, and a trained IAFF Peer Supporter. He is the Assistant Fire Chief for the Springdale Fire Department (OH). He has served the City of Springdale for 23 years and held the ranks of Firefighter/Paramedic, Chief Fire Inspector, and Fire Captain prior to his current position.
He oversees the operations of the fire department and develops the department’s standard operating guidelines. Chief Williams is always looking to better himself and the fire service. He believes in continuous improvement of fireground skills and operations through regular and consistent training. He is known for his honest approach and teaching others through his first-hand experiences.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (01:19):
Hello and welcome to the Boot Shifter Podcast.
You have John Vance here today,along with Josh Bloom.
Scott Williams is our guest.
Scott is a blue card bootinstructor.
He is the assistant chief of theSpringdale, Ohio Fire
Department, and has been aninstructor for several years and
in a lot of other disciplines,and has a topic that he spoke
(01:43):
about at our hazard zoneconference this year that got
brave reviews and really openeda lot of eyes for people.
And we wanted to get Scott ontoday because of some recent
events that happened in Houstonwith a roadway accident.
We talk about operating on theroadway and how dangerous it is
and how we apply the riskmanagement model.
(02:03):
And we've been talking aboutthis lately with our battalion
chiefs back home, that it's oneof the, if not the most
dangerous places we operate.
It's just as dangerous, I think,as being an IDLH.
And I refer to it as an IDLHbecause it's an environment
that's immediately dangerous tolife and health.
So we're going to help you todayas an IC to make some decisions
(02:27):
and get some resources to helpyou better manage the safety and
the risk that our people areinvolved in on the roadway.
So, Scott, thank you very muchfor being here today and
spending some time with us onthe B Shifter Podcast to pass
this information along.
We're going to start off with anincident that happened in Ohio.
(02:47):
This was a close call.
It was a distracted driver.
Let's let's set this up and thenJosh has some thoughts before we
roll the video.
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Yeah, so this incident happened in a
neighboring city of ours, righton I-75.
They were dispatched to thenorthbound side of the highway
for an auto accident withinjuries.
The crews uh responded.
When they arrived, this portionof the highway has got a grassy
median in between, so there's nojersey wall or anything
protecting the southbound fromthe north.
(03:18):
They set up everything on thenorthbound side of the highway
and the high-speed berm becausethe vehicle was in the grassy
area.
They had a medic and a battalionon the scene, two engines, so
the blocking engine and thefirst engine on the scene
assisting.
And they had uh the safetypatrol from ODOT there, the
Geico safety patrol vehicle.
Everybody's set up, doingeverything they're supposed to
(03:40):
do.
And we talk about this a lot,just making sure we're doing
everything right beforesomething goes wrong.
They're out of the vehicles,they're assessing the patient
and grassy median, and then theynotice another vehicle in the
southbound side of the highwayin the high speed burn.
They sent a firefighter over tocheck to see if the person was
involved in the accident.
Uh, they were.
They were knelt down at thedriver's door just talking to
(04:03):
the patient to see what theyneeded.
There was a highway patrolofficer at the back of this
vehicle, and we'll watch thisvideo here in a second.
We'll see how close things came.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
So I think I think one thing with this one is is as
you watch this, they got calledthe northbound, but it's in the
median.
So, you know, we have to havethat consideration of what's
going on southbound as well.
And you know, uh probably veryfew of us have thought about
that in the past, but thisbrings that to light that if
we're operating in the median,then we have a hazard northbound
(04:38):
and southbound that we need tothink about and consider.
So it's that IC's job to makesure that you know everybody
there has their head on a swiveland that everybody's watching,
you know, everywhere and what'sgoing on.
And then, you know, takingadvantage and using all the
resource you have available tomake the area where we're
operating safe.
(04:59):
Because, you know, northboundwas you know set up, but you
know, southbound not.
And they didn't know that, youknow, until you know, basically
right when this incidenthappened is when they realized
that there was something elsegoing on on the other side of
the median.
But even if you're operating inthe middle of the median, we
should consider northbound andsouthbound if the if there's not
a barrier, you know, there toprotect us.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
That is correct.
And uh we're gonna discussanother case here in a little
bit with uh crossover situationthat occurred and resulted in
three people dying in thatincident, two firefighters and a
police officer.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
So we'll go to this incident in Ohio from uh body
cam from a state trooper.
So we see this car coming, andwe're just gonna stop the video
right here, and and it's gonnaback up and show where that
(05:55):
officer was.
Human nature, if you have a carcoming at you like that, what
are most people, Scott, in yourstudies going to do to try to
get out of the way of thatautomobile?
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Well, what they're gonna do is move to the right,
and the reason they're gonna dothat is because they know all
that traffic is moving to theirleft at highway speeds.
They see this car comingdirectly at them.
So our tendency is to move tothe right, go into that grassy
area to try to find some refuge.
And which are if this trooperwould have done that, it would
have cost him his life.
(06:27):
Fortunately, he stayed put.
SPEAKER_03 (06:53):
What were you doing?
You can't do it.
Yeah, you almost killed us.
You needed some water.
So you don't pay attention toanything on the road because
you're at thirty.
No one else.
(07:16):
There was me and anotherfirefighter, and then someone
else had just got involved inthe crash.
Okay, uh yeah, it so you'rewithin literally five feet of
hitting one of us.
Uh so it will be a mandatorycourt appearance.
I started you for failure tocontrol.
Your mandatory court day will beAugust 15th.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
So when we talk about this being a problem,
Scott, over the last five years,what what's the number like?
How many, how many, how manyfirst responders or
firefighters, how do you havethat broken down, have been
killed in the line of duty inthese roadway incidents?
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
So it's about 500 responders out there total, and
251 of those are emergencyresponders.
So that's the police andfirefighters over that span of
time.
And when you look at compare howmany times we're on the highway
versus the tow truck operators,uh, some of these other
individuals of police are upthere obviously more often than
(08:11):
we are when they have non-injuryaccidents.
But the tow truck and all thosegeico vehicles, safety patrols,
they're on the highways way morethan we are, but they're not
being struck as often as we are.
So it's something we really haveto look at and give some
attention to.
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Well, we're gonna walk through a few case studies
and then we're gonna get to somebest practices and then give you
an opportunity also to downloadan SOP that could help your
department.
So uh that that's kind of wherewe're gonna go with the podcast
today.
So the first case study we'regonna look at actually hit very
close to home for Scott.
It was his uh city's policedepartment in Springdale, Ohio.
(08:48):
They lost an officer in the lineof duty from the PD, Kaya Grant,
and that was an incident that Idon't know if it could have been
prevented, but walk us throughthis incident and tell us what
happened with this line of dutydeath.
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
So this was uh right in the height of COVID, uh,
right when everything wasstarting to be shut down.
Um, I was on a 48-hour shift,uh, doing an overtime shift on a
Saturday, and the first half ofthat we got dispatched to an
injured person on our highway,uh, which was unusual for us.
We normally would get dispatchedfor uh auto access, maybe a
(09:21):
vehicle fire, sometimes amedical emergency up there, but
not an injured person.
So we always sent an enginecompany to any time we went to
the highway, but we reallydidn't know what we were doing
all the time when we did thatengine.
We sent the engine just becausewe wanted to have some blocking
there, but were we doing thingsappropriately?
Um, so I marked on the radio andasked the dispatch, they had
(09:43):
some additional information.
And immediately by the crackingof the dispatcher's voice, I
knew things were it wassomething significant.
Uh, she came on and told methere was an officer down that
was struck.
And so marking route, and thenI'm getting reports en route
that there's multiple officersinjured.
We enter the highway eastbound.
Uh, everything is happening inthe westbound side of the
(10:06):
highway.
And within a tenth of a mile ofus entering from our exit ramp
is where all this is happening.
And what I noticed as I enteredthe highway was Kaya was laying
uh on the high-speed bermeastbound, but everything else
was on the westbound side of thehighway.
So the medicre and I stoppedright there with her.
I get out of my vehicle, and asI'm looking over the jersey
(10:26):
wall, I can see Sergeant Davis.
He's laying in the roadwaywestbound, and he's just yelling
at me, Where's Kaya, Scott?
Where's Kaya?
And I knew where she was, and Iknew her injuries were
significant, and she wasn'tgonna survive this.
And I just told him, We got herover here, we'll take care of
her.
Uh, I look to my left, I noticedthat there's a the police have
(10:47):
the driver at gunpoint, so we'reworried about scene safety at
this point, and how secure thatscene is, and then uh trying to
make sure we had enough medicunits and everything dispatched
up to the highway.
So Sergeant Davis and Kaya weresetting up stop sticks on the
westbound side of the highway.
Kaya's vehicle was in thehigh-speed berm westbound.
(11:09):
Sergeant Davis had parked hisvehicle eastbound, jumped the
wall, and they were throwing thesticks out.
They went to the back of her carlike they were taught to do for
protection.
And this guy that was fleeingwas a suicidal subject.
He ended up uh justintentionally striking both of
them, which sent Kaya over topof the Jersey wall to the
(11:31):
eastbound side, and obviouslyshe died from her injuries.
Uh Sergeant Davis survived thisaccident, but never returned
back to work, never full duty.
He retired uh within a year fromthis happening.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So some pictures of Kaya's cruiser here.
So was she standing behind thatcruiser, or where where was she
at in relation to where thecollision happened?
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Rear of the cruiser, uh, kind of to that right where
that impact was on the left-handside there.
And he went, once he hit her,uh, he went between the jersey
wall and her cruiser down thatleft side of that car, ended up
all the way on the right-handgrassy burn of the highway.
So you can see the devastationof her vehicle and how that
(12:17):
impact was uh unbelievable tothe vehicles.
Through all this, it just mademe sit down and look at things
like what do we need to dodifferently.
SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
And how did this change your city?
I mean, I'm sure this wassomething that really impacted
the city as a whole, but how howdid it impact how you operated
on roadways and and goingforward?
How do you try to prevent thesekind of things from happening?
And as Josh said, you know, wewe could be doing it all
correctly, and it's things arestill gonna happen, but how do
(12:48):
we work to to prevent this?
And what have you guys done?
SPEAKER_02 (12:52):
Yeah, so we didn't even have a TIM policy at all at
that point, and so I started ona quest to learn about this and
and and figure things out andmake sure that everybody was
safer, both police and fire.
So I started attending a bunchof classes and FDIC, started
making connections with otherpeople that had dealt with this
(13:14):
and created a TIM policy for ourdepartment.
I've since become a TIMinstructor, uh, so I can now
teach our region uh how tooperate safely on the highway.
Started obviously with all ofour fire department.
Make the fire department istrained.
We've uh invited them to all thetraining to make sure they
understand how to operate on thehighways.
(13:35):
Now we have it just workcollectively together on the
runs.
So we work with our tow truckoperators that we deal with.
We have a rotation of operatorsthat are there all the time, so
we try to make sure theyunderstand what's going on.
And then we've actually talkedto the safety patrol people to
find out what are theirpolicies, what do they do, and
so that we can all work togetherand be safer on the highways.
(13:57):
So it's really driven what I'vedone in our region for our
response, but then just whatit's done to our department as a
whole, the police department,several officers just left the
job, right?
Our lead medic is not even inthe fire service anymore that
took care of Kaya.
He had a lot of just mentalhealth issues from that, really
(14:18):
set people over the edge.
And it was the greatest job inthe world.
I tell everybody all the timeuntil it's not, right?
And when you lose somebody likethis, whether it's a line of
duty death in a fire or it's onthe highway like this, whether
it's police fire, it doesn'tmatter, it affects you greatly.
I walked with uh Kaya's familythrough this.
(14:39):
Gina's her mother, Kevin's herfather, and it devastated their
family.
And I went with them toWashington, D.C.
when we put Kaya's name on amemorial wall.
I walked with them as they gotthe Medal of Honor from at the
Capitol building, and that wasall part of my grieving process,
being a part of everything, andjust watching them suffer
(15:00):
through that and watching whatit did to the police and fire
department.
It's the things that we don'ttalk about.
A lot of times we go to thefuneral and everybody kind of
forgets it from there.
But it's all those days, weeks,months, years after that.
That it doesn't change for thosefamilies and the people that
were that knew them andresponded to the call.
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
We're going to talk about the traffic incident
management program that or TIMthat uh Scott was referring to
coming up.
But let's talk about a coupleother incidents that have
happened because I think it theyall relate to to each other and
and can help us can continue tolearn.
Uh, one was uh recently in Ohio,a trooper Nicholas Clayton was
(15:41):
killed in line of duty on anincident.
What happened there?
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
So he was assisting on an auto accident with a
semi-truck.
He was set up behind the truckand in his vehicle, like he's
supposed to be after everythingis over with.
Get back in the vehicle to getthat extra protection.
And another semi-truck came upbehind him and struck him and
pancaked him between the twosemis.
(16:06):
And he died from his injuries.
That just happened in October innorthern Ohio here.
And then the next morning, therewas another accident in
Covington, Kentucky, which isright where Cincinnati and
Northern Kentucky meet on 71.
He was and his cruiser, the samething, struck by a vehicle.
(16:26):
He's on the scene blocking, andanother vehicle came up from
behind him and struck him.
So within that 12-hour window,we had two police officers, you
know, one both vehicles struck,but one killed, the other one
had injuries but survived theseaccidents.
SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
That that's the that's just a horrific thing to
pull up on.
And I I've done it in my careerto see, you know, seeing police
cars on their side and beendamaged so bad, and then there's
a whole other extrication issue.
One if you've got a cop trapwith all the electronics and
cages and stuff that they havein their vehicles.
And then recently we we had thisHouston incident.
(17:05):
Tell tell us what happened inHouston just a few days ago.
SPEAKER_02 (17:09):
Yeah, so they were the same thing, assisting an
18-wheeler auto accident, and onthe scene of that blocking, the
engine company had the crew backon the truck, like we talked
about.
So that's one of the big thingswe have to learn from these.
Uh that's what saved their life,right?
Oftentimes we want to stand outthere on the highway and have a
conversation with the police andtow truck, and that's not the
time to have it.
(17:30):
If you want to have aconversation with the police
officers, then come back to thepolice fire department, go to
the police station and talk tothem.
The highway is not the place forthat.
So, all these four firefighterswere back on that engine company
blocking, and another semi camethrough and struck them right in
that pump panel at the jump seatdoor.
The fire truck was literallyalmost a U-shape when it was
(17:51):
done.
They had to have two tow truckstowed off the scene to get it
because of the damage done tothe fire truck.
Uh, four firefighters wereinjured.
Uh, there's fractures involvedin these some of these injuries,
but they they're all gonnasurvive and be okay and recover
from these injuries.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Well, so we we've talked about getting back into
the vehicle, you know, and and II look at it like the clock's
ticking when we're out on a on ahighway like that.
You know, let's let's get ourjob done, let's get out of
there.
But you we, you know, to the twoofficers and and these
firefighters were in thevehicle.
So we're saying that's bestpractice, but there's a
component of that we have tohave our seat belts on if we're
(18:30):
sitting in the vehicle, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:31):
Is that that is correct.
And that's what uh our policy isis once they're done, they get
back in the vehicle, they puttheir seat belts on, they're
different if they wereresponding.
Uh they're they're gonna keephopefully being from being
ejected if they are struck, andthen that fire apparatus, that
vehicle is gonna give them thathopefully some protection to
absorb that energy to keep themalive.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
So let's shift gears and we'll talk about a case
study out of Lubbock, Texas.
That was uh a few years ago, andit was a crash on a highway.
It was uh the the firedepartment was responding to a
traffic accident on the highway.
Two firefighters and a policeofficer were ultimately killed
in the line of duty.
Uh, tell us about this incident.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
So the the individual on your left here is
firefighter Matt Dawson.
Uh Lieutenant Eric H is in themiddle, and then there was uh
police officer Renya who endedup dying in this as well.
In my quest to learn abouttraffic safety, I took this
class that Lieutenant BradyRobinette from Lovick, Texas uh
was teaching and learned abouttheir line of duty death, and it
(19:37):
made me change a lot of what wewere doing as well.
So they're set up on the autoaccident.
They had a morning where theygot a little bit of ice on the
roadways down there in Texas,and there's an elevated highway
going down the middle, and thenit's kind of two off ramps below
on each side of the highway.
They had already transported thepatients, they had a couple
(19:58):
vehicles there, and they hadleft two blocking engines but
returned the rest of thecomplement.
They had a ladder company and abattalion on the scene before
all this happened, and then twoengine companies are set up and
they're doing exactly whatthey're supposed to do again.
They're doing everything rightin preparation of something
going wrong.
They had a blocking enginesitting behind them, both
positioned but properly.
While they're there, there wasanother crash that happened on
(20:20):
their side of the highway aheadof them.
So Eric Hill and Matt Dawson gotoff the truck to walk up, like
any of us would do, to check onthose injuries.
And on the way to that wreck,another vehicle came the other
direction, crossed over thatgrassy median, and struck both
them and the police officer.
Um, Eric Hill died at the scene,as well as the police officer,
(20:45):
and Matt was transported to thehospital.
Matt survived and lived for 34months before his injuries.
The significant thing that cameout of this crash report was the
the head protection that weutilize on the highway.
Everybody uses fire helmets whenthey're out there because that's
(21:07):
what we have.
And uh any roadway worker istraditionally using a
construction helmet, and thoseare uh designed to protect you
from impact from top down, butnot from side impacts and those
anything collision related likethat or hitting the ground with
your helmet.
They both had their helmets on,but when they impacted the
ground, their helmets flew off,and Matt suffered a significant
(21:32):
brain injury from that.
And the 34 months that he livedum was rough for him, right?
Rough for the fire department.
He had a wife and a youngdaughter, and what that does.
And those are the things that wedon't think about and talk about
again, right?
It's that the financialcomponent, the emotional
component, what that's done tothose who made that run and
(21:55):
cared for him, what it's done tohis wife and daughter and
family, and those impacts aresignificant, and that's what we
really have to think about whenwe're out there operating on the
roadways.
SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
And then this is Matt, while he was trying to
recover, what what happened tohim?
And and you know, was was thereever a prognosis that you know
about that they were theythought he was gonna make it, or
did did he just suffer from somany complications that
ultimately uh took his life?
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Yeah, from what I understand, it's just uh this
all the complications to thataccident just over time uh
finally end up costing his life.
Uh they it was ruled a line ofduty death uh because the
initial injury was because hewas up on that highway and
operating.
Uh so this is why we now atSpringdale Fire Department wear
(22:44):
rescue helmets um on thehighway.
We do not um wear fire helmetswhen we're out out there
operating unless it's a vehiclefire in snow time that we wear
them.
And uh Lieutenant BradyRobinette has made it his
mission to try to get uh ahelmet made specific for roadway
use, and he's been working onthat for five five years now.
(23:09):
And in July of 24, uh theAmerican Society for Testing
Materials was able to finallypublish a standard for that
helmet.
Now we just need a manufacturerto make the helmet.
Um, so in the meantime, what dowe wear?
And so what we've done is gonewith a Team Wendy helmet, as
long as what that's the samething Lubbock has done, and it's
rated for like white waterrafting, mountaineering, uh bike
(23:34):
bicycling, all that, so that itgives the most protection it
possibly can until this otherhelmet is made.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
So aside from the helmet, which this is good
information, and and reallyyou're you're the first one I
heard, you know, bring thishelmet.
And and you know, we used towear technical rescue helmets
sometimes to do extrication justbecause it's easier to get in
and out of the cars with those,but uh probably another
application for even those kindof helmets.
But what what other gear shouldwe have on to complement our um
(24:03):
visibility and in addition toyou know whatever ANSI approves,
or you know, how should we bedressed uh while we're on a
roadway?
SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
Yeah, so ANSI 107 is our standard for that, and it's
gonna tell us what the safetyapparel we need.
And we want to think about thosevests we're wearing because
there's many out there, right?
There's some that have thelights in them that light up.
But what I want everybody toremember is they need to think
about that breakaway protection.
If you're caught on a vehicle,on a mirror, whatever it might
(24:33):
be, you want that vest thatyou're wearing, that garment
that you're wearing to be ableto tear off so that you don't
get drugged down the highway.
Uh, some of the other vests thatare out there, there are
different ones that do not breakaway, they still meet the
standard.
But if you're caught, uh itcould be drugged down the
highway.
So uh we've really beenintentional with that to make
sure that ours break away.
(24:54):
It's got all the differentVelcro points on it.
We have five different points onours that it'll break away so
that it takes that off of us.
But we want to make sure that weare wearing that safety gear.
A garment could be a vest, itcould be a jacket, even.
And those jackets obviouslyaren't gonna tear away, break
away.
But like when you go throughChick-fil-A and you see that
(25:16):
operators wearing the sashes,that's not appropriate for the
highway to use, right?
We got to make sure it's a vest.
And uh, if it's a fire, we gottabe in our turnout gear.
There's no way around that.
And that does offer somereflectivity, but when we're on
the highway, we need to makesure we have that vest on.
And then uh for us, it's alwaysa safety helmet.
Even on an entrapment, we'rewearing the state behind.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
We, you know, we're up on these roadways where
people are doing 80, 90 miles anhour, their wisdom bias.
A lot of times, law enforcementdoesn't let us shut down the the
entire road, so we still have towork within traffic, and that's
probably a whole other topic toyou know how we're gonna control
that.
But what I and you say it, Imean, our biggest problem out
(25:58):
there is distracted drivers thatend up driving right into our
apparatus or right into workersthat are trying to attend to
patients and hazards on theroadway, right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
Yep, yeah.
We got those distracted drivers,right?
There's all kinds of them.
They're drunk, they're drugged,they're drowsy, they're
distracted, they're on theirphones, they're dangerous
drivers.
Sometimes there's driverlessvehicles now, right?
So we just talk about all thekey drivers that are out there.
We start thinking about all thestuff that's out there.
How is that driverless vehiclegonna know we're ahead of them,
(26:29):
right?
It's not, and so this is all thethings we're dealing with.
It's only gonna continue, and sowe have to think through that.
And those distracted drivers arewhat's gonna get us, just like
the near miss we saw in at thetop of the show here.
It was because of a distracteddriver reaching down to get some
water, looked up, and there theyare, and he's got nowhere to go.
SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Of course, people on their phones and and people who
are living in their own worlddoing whatever they're doing in
their vehicles, and we see ithappen all the time.
So you you you spoke about Tim,the traffic incident management,
and there's some training thatgoes goes along with that.
What what is that?
And and you know, what shoulddepartments implement as far as
(27:11):
training goes to get our folksready to operate in these
environments?
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
So nationally, there is a traffic incident management
training that's taught, and it'sthe same throughout every state.
And they they can add some, makeit more stringent, kind of like
a fire code if they choose to,each state can, but they have to
meet this minimum standard.
Uh the training is free, sothere's no reason not to get it
(27:36):
done.
Uh, you can do it in person orvirtually.
Uh, if you go to your statedepartment of transportation,
they offer it in person andvirtually as well.
I've taken ours that that'swhere I initially took mine, was
at our Iowa Department ofTransportation, one of the
offices in person to learn aboutit.
The Emergency Responder SafetyInstitute is kind of the leader
(28:00):
in all the highway stuff, andthey offer a Tim training on
their site as well, as well asthe Federal Highway
Administration.
So you can go to any of theirwebsites and you can take the
training for free if you onshift and you're doing it.
You get through there's 10modules to it.
If you get through module twoand make a run, it'll save your
progress, you come right back towhere you're at.
(28:21):
At the end of it, you're gonnaget you that certificate, and
it's gonna help you to know howall disciplines need to operate
on the highway.
So it's not just forfirefighters, it's for our
police, our tow operators, thesafety control, ODOT, any of
your Department ofTransportation workers, all
those people are trained to thesame level uh at what they're
(28:42):
strengthening.
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
So when we get out there and and part of the
program talks about, you know,once we respond up on a on a
highway, high, high speed road,however we uh quantify that in
our jurisdiction.
Uh what's the importance ofcreating a safety zone for our
workers and how do we go aboutdoing that?
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Yeah, that's the safety zone is what we got to do
when we what we got to figureout and set up, right?
And that's gonna look differenton every run.
Sometimes we have maybe a car inthe middle of the highway and
like maybe lane three.
Sometimes we have a splitaccident where we've got cars on
the high speed berm and righthand burn.
And so we have to look at thatwhen we respond and figure out
(29:24):
the safest way to position.
But our medic unit should alwaysbe in front of the accident and
the fire apparatus to the backof the apparatus, and then our
safety patrol people are behindall of us because they have that
message board and they canreally light things up, let
people see things.
So it's working with your safetypatrols to make sure they
understand where you need themto set up.
(29:46):
We got to create that initialblock.
So there's a block right, blockleft, depending on how you're
positioning your truck, and wewant the block towards the way
we want traffic to flow.
So we want traffic to move tothe right of our accident.
We want to turn our truck to theright so that they are moving in
that direction.
One of the things for the pumpoperators, the apparatus
(30:06):
operators, is to turn theirwheels once they park.
So we want their wheels turnedaway from the accident.
So if that semi or somebodycomes up behind and hits us,
it's gonna move that truck theway the wheels are turned.
If the wheels are turned towardsour accident scene, it's gonna
come right into our safety zonethat we're creating.
Now, it's that risk managementwe talk about all the time,
right?
(30:26):
Um, even through our program.
When I get on the highway, uh,if I'm there in my staff car,
there's many times I don't getout of the car.
It's because it's not safe forme to do so, right?
I have to understand that is itokay for me to get out right
now?
If I get struck, who am Ihelping?
And there's times I'll pull up,I'll give the size up, create
the initial block, and wait forthe engine company to pull up
(30:48):
behind me and then reposition myvehicle and then at that point
get out and really startassessing more what we have.
So we have to think about thatthe same way we would respond to
a structure fire, same thing onthe highway.
How does it look?
You know, what are we gonna bein an offensive strategy here or
do we need to just go defensivefor a minute, then go back
(31:09):
offensive to be able to get outof the vehicle?
And we have to apply that same.
Method as we arrive on theseaccident scenes.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
So wait, would you advocate, or does the program
advocate for additionalapparatus response on highways?
And you know, our our typicalresponse used to be an engine
and maybe an ambulance, butshould we be sending more?
And what's the roles of allthose apparatus and crews that
are responding?
SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Yeah, we should be sending additional apparatus to
these crashes, and that's whatwe've kind of done in our
region, right?
We all have to work each ladetogether to make that happen.
We don't have some of us aresingle engine houses, but we
don't have multiple fireapparatuses we can throw at it.
So that's what we've done in ourregion with our Interstate 275
and Interstate 75.
(31:54):
We've all worked collectivelynow to have a mutual aid engine
dispatched.
So we ensure that we have two.
There's been times we pulled upand needed a third, and we just
asked for an additional engineand then we positioned them
where we need them.
But the initial engine is gonnaset up close to the scene in a
way that they can work the sceneas needed.
The second engine, the blockingengine, should be blocking 150
(32:17):
to 300 feet behind that initialengine.
So that training component, wetalk about, hey, you're the
blocking engine when you arrive.
Set up, you're gonna set up inthe blocking position, mere
engine 90s block, it means blockthe same way they're blocking,
but you're gonna do that 150 to300.
That company officer has to makethat decision.
So once we get the training outthere, everybody knows by you
(32:40):
know that task and uh locationobjective we're given that they
need they can make that decisionwithin how far back they need to
do it.
So we uh and then when you havethat split accident that
happens, it crashes on ahigh-speed right-hand burn with
that extra engine.
You can just put one engine tothe right, one engine to the
left, and you've got a block onboth sides.
So it accomplishes many thingshaving at least two engines on
(33:02):
that initial dispatch.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Probably more than any of us that uh work here with
B Shifter, you know, Josh is onthe phone and and out talking to
fire chiefs and fire serviceleaders every single day.
Josh is relaying to me that weget pushback on this best best
practice.
Have you encountered that, Josh?
You know, give us some examplesof some pushback on sending the
(33:25):
additional apparatus.
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
Yeah, so um in typical you know, fashion when
people get into certainpositions, they forget about the
work and it becomes more aboutyou know what what they're
comfortable with or what theyfeel is important or or
whatever.
And that and they're not theones that are standing out there
in the roadway.
So I mean, over the last how tosay 10 years, I've heard plenty
(33:52):
of instances of people returningeven the first engine and just
leaving a medic unit on thehighway.
Well, we're just we're we'rereducing our exposure, we're
sending them back.
And it's like, well, but youjust left an ambulance by
themselves on the highway to gethit.
And the answer is you know, theresponse sometimes is, well, I
don't need that, I don't needthat million-dollar fire truck
(34:12):
up there.
If that thing gets totaled, youknow, it'll take five now, it'll
take, you know, it'll take fiveyears to replace that, and it's
gonna cost us a million dollarsand whatever.
And it's like, well, you heardor kill four firemen or six
firemen, or tractor trailer runsinto the back of that ambulance
with, you know, two paramedicsand a patient in it, and now
nobody's there, right?
So, you know, we're sendingapparatus there for the reason
(34:36):
of creating that safety zone forus.
I I always loved in the in myprevious life we're gonna go to
inclement weather response onthe highway, and we're only
gonna send the minimum resourceof a medic unit and one engine.
And it's like that's the mostignorant thing I've ever heard
in my life.
When we're at the biggest riskof, you know, the highway being
(34:58):
iced over, snow, you know,whatever, and and we're gonna
reduce our response to limit ourexposure.
And it's like, well, you'relimiting your exposure of maybe
a total on a fire truck, butyou're not limiting your
exposure of your firefightersthat are operating out there on
the highway getting hurt orkilled.
So we have to start with it, allgoes back for me for starting
(35:20):
with the work.
Like, what does it take to dothe work that we need to do?
And part of working on thehighway or working in any
incident roadway is evaluationof those critical factors.
And it's sounding kind of likethe same system that we use for
everything we go to.
That's why our program andsystem is all hazards.
What are the critical factors?
You can apply it to an autoaccident, you can apply it to a
(35:42):
violent crimes incident, you canapply it to an ARF incident, you
can apply it to anything, right?
So we have to get there and makedecisions and think.
And I guess the second piece ofthat that I hear all the time is
well, the the patient's in theambulance now, and we're going
to return all the companies.
It's like, no, we we sent themthere for a reason.
(36:04):
We will all leave together.
And I'd like to hear Scott'skind of input on that.
Like the the medic unit willleave maybe before everybody
else, but we shouldn't leave themedic unit sitting there by
themselves as a target, is theway I look at it, you know, on
the highway or or on any otherroadway.
That we're we're just leaving abig exposure there.
So if we want to talk about thelimiting exposure, the best way
(36:24):
we limit exposure is use theresources that we have available
to protect our most valuableasset, and that is the people
who work on the fire trucks anddo the work.
The that piece of equipment, Iget it, it's a million dollars
or two million dollars orwhatever.
But in this case, it's there toprotect us, no different than uh
(36:46):
you know, so many other thingswe have, right?
We we wear an SCBA to protect usfrom you know toxic you know
conditions inside of an ideal Henvironment.
And we don't take the stance onthat of, oh, don't wear your
SCBA in there.
It's getting it's it's you'reexposing it and it's getting
worn down, and it's like, no,that's bullshit.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Yeah, it and so like in the state of Ohio, we have a
quick clearance wall so we canactually move vehicles and get
them out of the way.
So when we talk about limitingthat exposure, it's don't leave
these cars in the middle of thelanes.
Once we get the patience out ofthem, let's get them off the
road, right?
And so they that's where yoursafety patrol will work with
you.
It's like their structure fire,man.
(37:27):
They love it.
Like they get out there andthey'll get these cars and
demolition derby and move themoff to the side of the road.
And we do this all the time, butbefore Kaya, we never thought
about it.
And now we just clear them outof the way, get them over to one
of the berms, and then we canreduce that response down to a
police officer and uh and thesafety patrol there until the
(37:48):
toad gets there.
We also want to think aboutthose police officers that are
out there, even when thatmedicure leaves, right?
We didn't think much about itbefore.
We kind of cleared with ourmedicinal.
Now we want to think about them.
They're sitting there bythemselves.
If we need to keep that enginethere a little bit longer to
block for them until we can getthings moved, sometimes you
can't move the vehicles ifyou're stable, they just gotta
(38:09):
stay put.
We try to work with our toes andour police and make sure we keep
that engine in as long as we canto protect for them as well.
So it's really changed ourmindset after going through Ty's
path.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
You you talked about the traffic incident management
training.
We'll we'll provide a link tothat too in the show notes.
How how do you get an SOP forthis?
And and what should the SOP looklike?
And and then what was really theprocess of you implementing the
SOP that you have at Springdale?
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
I think that our guys were hungry for it, so I
didn't think it was difficultfor the guys to grab a hold of
it and utilize it.
Um, they've embraced it.
Even when I've you know comeback with the rescue helmets and
done that, they've uh theyreally embraced that as well.
We'll give you a sample SOG.
I'll share ours with you at theend of the show, it'll be in the
(39:01):
notes and stuff for you.
In that, it's gonna show you thedifferent blocks that you have
to do.
So if you have that crossoverhappen, if you have the split
accident, all those differentthings, it shows you how to
create that safety zone with anactual diagram in it, as well as
detailing out what the responseneeds to be from personal
protective equipment to there'sa rescue helmet component in
(39:21):
there.
And then one of the key thingsthat uh came out um about a year
ago with Matt's NIOSH report, Iwent through all the key
recommendations to see if therewas anything we needed to
change.
And we had a spotter, we weassigned a safety officer on
every run as a spotter, and alltheir job is is to watch
everything that's going on.
(39:41):
So whether it's the battalionand the district car or if it's
the lieutenant on the enginecompany, if it's me, it doesn't
matter.
Somebody has to be assigned toit, and that's a position we
assign out on every crash.
But how do we alert them, right?
How do we let them know danger'scoming?
And if we go to key the mic upand it's busy and we get that
bonk, that busy signal.
(40:03):
Uh, if we try to yell andtraffic's going by us and they
can't hear us, how are we gonnaalert them?
So, what we did after that NIOSreport is we put a marine horn
in the front seat of the enginefor the officer.
We keep one in all the chief'scars, and whoever the spotter is
has that marine horn.
Um, and then we've talked, youknow, not only do our guys need
(40:24):
to know this, our police, ourtow operators, the safety
patrol.
So we've trained all of them.
Our mutual aid partners that areresponding with us on these.
If you hear that horn,something's inbound, and you
just need a heads up and move.
So that's how we've kind oflearned how to alert people.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Where is the best place for that safety lookout uh
person to be positioned?
Where where do you advocate forthem to be?
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
It really depends on where the how the crash is set
up, but they got to be set backin a way where they can watch
for the oncoming traffic comingat them.
We're in a fortunate spot on ourhighway where we've got a
jerseywall the entire stretch ofour highway now.
Uh we used to have thatcrossover worry.
So now they can sit back andlook at that.
I respond to every car wreck inour city when I'm on shift, and
(41:12):
all I do is position somewhereto assist in creating that
safety zone.
And 95% of the time I don't evenget out of my car.
So I'll keep that marine horn inmy hand with the window down,
watching my mirrors.
And if I see something, I'll hitthat as well.
So when I'm on the scene, wegenerally have two safety
officers that are just all we'redoing is just watching traffic.
(41:35):
So once we get everybody back inthe truck while we're waiting on
the tow, we don't have thatsafety officer out there
anymore.
But anytime we're off off of atruck, somebody's got to be
assigned to that level.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
As fast as technology is evolving, we're
getting more tools for us tobetter manage this.
Uh, I love some of the stuff thecops are doing now, and that's
that's a whole other topic.
Police chases and the thegrappling hook now that they
have that can wrap the axle ofthe car they're chasing and just
disable the vehicle.
That that's a huge advancementfor that.
(42:07):
But there's these uh new digitalalerting systems.
You were talking about that atthe conference.
What are those and how does thatwork?
SPEAKER_02 (42:14):
Yeah, so the digital alerting, um, there's new
technology after that.
And the company that we wentwith uh is Haas Alert, they use
the uh safety cloud, and we haveput these, we have to put these
transponders on every one of ourvehicles, and they're tied to
our emergency lights.
So every time we turn theemergency lights on, it sends
out a signal and alerts peoplethat we are responding, so it'll
(42:37):
pop up on their infotainmentsystems and their navigation
apps and tell them, hey, there'san emergency vehicle ahead or
responding, approaching.
If we're sitting on a scene onthe highway, then it tells them
there's an emergency vehicleahead.
So it gives them a 30-secondnotice before uh they get to us.
We I just looked at our statsthis morning last month.
(43:00):
We alerted 2,800 drivers uh inour city responding to calls and
working on our roadways andhighways.
So it's another again,technology is evolving, it's
another thing out there.
We got to take advantage of it.
It's just to me, it's worth thecost to keep our guys safe.
So I went to Chief with it andhe didn't balk at it at all.
(43:21):
He's about to make it happen.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
So Scott, we we really appreciate you being with
us today and and and walking usthrough some of these incidents
that happened and also bestpractices.
We'll have your contactinformation also in the show
notes if somebody wants to reachout to you and get more
information.
I I think it's a topic we don'ttalk about enough, especially
when it comes to the dangersthat that our folks face.
SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
I just want to I just want to put it out there
that we're uh we've been we'vebeen working on it for I don't
know, six months.
Scott and I have been back andforth probably on the creating a
CE module to put in the downloadcenter, you know, for for people
to have as a CE for this trafficincident management.
And it's not going to replace, Imean, I encourage everybody to
(44:05):
just go take the free course,right?
But this is just gonna be a CEmodule kind of as a reminder,
refresher is the incidentcommander IC one and two.
You know, what are our roles?
What are our considerations?
Um, and then really drive peopleto, you know, the Thames
training program to to gothrough it.
There's really there's no excuseto go through it, right?
It's gonna cost you only thingit's gonna cost you is a little
(44:27):
bit of your time, and hopefullyit would will make a difference
out on the fire ground.
And then the other comment I hadwas you you had mentioned Scott,
how did you how'd you implementthis?
And at Springdale, you know, heum you run an SOG to say this is
what we're gonna do, this is whywe're gonna do it, and then you
then you enforce that.
And you know, so many places wesee, oh, we're gonna jump on
(44:48):
that because it's the coolthing.
And then uh even our own even inour own area, it's like you your
boss bought that equipment andhe put you through the training,
but you're standing in themiddle of the roadway in your
sweatshirt, like why why aren'tyou and you but you have all of
the stuff, so why aren't youdoing anything with that?
And that comes back to theaccountability model, right?
(45:11):
Like we have to hold peopleaccountable.
We we told you what theexpectation is, we trained you
on it, and now we're gonna holdyou accountable for it.
And we're doing all of this forus, right?
I mean, it's it's for us, it'sfor the police department, it's
for the tow truck drivers, it'sfor us.
And it this this has nothing todo really with the customer,
except for we can't do our jobif we become a victim.
(45:34):
So that's why we have to bedoing everything right when
something goes wrong.
And it doesn't mean fire trucksand ambulances and police cars
aren't going to get hit.
It's just that we have to takethe approach of we're operating,
and John, I'm on with you.
It's an ideal H environment whenyou're on the highway.
That was we get here where Ilive, we have two miles of
northbound 75 that's allelevated right there.
(45:54):
And, you know, if it if itrains, it becomes like an ice
rink.
And it's like, it's the worstplace you could ever operate.
And it's like, I I have no, no,no, no issues ever shutting down
the highway.
And, you know, Scott, I thinkmentioned and John mentioned the
well, what do you do with thepolice?
They always want the highwayopen.
And I think it goes back toanother project that Chief
(46:14):
Williams has done so well withis we we don't talk to the
police except for to joke withthem.
And in this case, it's like, no,we need to have a conversation
about why are we doing what wedo and get their buy-in, no
different than the firedepartment doesn't like the
dispatch center because theydon't do what we want them to.
Well, have you ever told them orasked them to do what you want
them to do?
And it's that relationshipthing, right?
(46:36):
It all comes back torelationships and getting on the
same page, not trying to figureit out when the bell rings and
you're standing on the highwaywith cars zipping past you at 70
miles an hour.
Just have the conversation ofwhy.
And I think in the last 10 yearsaround here, even before Tim
stuff, you know, all the wayback to Brandon Guerin getting
hit here in Lachland, you know,from a police pursuit.
(46:57):
And then, you know, severalother instances where, you know,
accidents happened, secondaryaccidents happened.
Police officers have much moreof that mindset of no, I'm not
gonna die up here.
I don't, we can shut it down allnight.
A lot of that mindset of, no, myI'm the highway patrol and my my
job is to make sure that trafficflows no matter what.
(47:19):
You know, we have to work withthem and make sure that we keep
traffic flowing the best we can,but they become a lot more open
now that we've had discussionsand talked to them about why we
do what we do.
And I mean, that's that's justwhat you have to do.
Not try to figure it out uh nottry to figure it out later.
And uh as I as I was saying thatI don't want to go down that
path because it'll be a storyNick can tell later, but kind of
(47:42):
lines up with an old NickBrunissini story with the with
the police in a conflict on thehighway.
But yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
Well, and and a lot of us have had those conflicts
with with police on the highway.
I I I worked uh uh a departmentthat covered 94 in Michigan, and
we and we work with thosedepartments still up in
Michigan.
And Amy Schnerel Pennywith, anAnn Arbor firefighter, was
killed uh about 10 years ago on94.
Same exact there they were outat a car accident.
(48:11):
I believe it was a single engineresponse, but don't quote me
100% on that.
But an out-of-control car endedup hitting Penny, even though
her lieutenant like gave thewarning, like, and and two of
the firefighters were able tojump over the barrier.
Unfortunately, Amy didn't makeit and was struck by the
vehicle.
So we see this happen over andover again.
(48:31):
And I think like so many thingsthat we do with B Shifter and
Blue Card, we we want to preventthis from happening to your
department.
You don't have to go throughthis, and that's why we're
sharing this information withyou today.
Yeah, Scott, I wanted to getyour take on this because you
know, especially when I'm alater arriver and I I have an
area that I've covered that youknow it takes me 15 minutes to
(48:51):
get there, and I'll pull up andthe engine crew is assisting the
tow truck driver with floor dryand getting things off the road.
Is is that an appropriate use ofour crews?
And if we're gonna do that, whatshould we be doing in an you
know, where we havediscretionary time now?
We're not attending to a patientor taking care of somebody who's
having an emergency.
We're just trying to maybe helpthe tow truck drivers.
(49:12):
Is that a good use of ourpersonnel and our resources?
And if we're gonna do how howshould we go about that?
SPEAKER_02 (49:18):
Yeah, we do that.
We try again, it's like clearquick clearance, right?
Get that roadway open as quicklyas we can, get the flow of
traffic.
That's the best thing we can doto keep everybody safe.
So we've put like leaf blowerson our truck so that we can move
big piles of debris across thehighway and try to get into one
lane before we're trying tocollect it up with a broom and a
(49:39):
dustban.
So we've changed some stuff thatwe've done there.
We used to just have brooms, andeverybody's out in the middle of
the highway standing theretrying to sweep all this debris
up.
So there's little things likethat that we do.
But back to what Josh was sayingtoo is just holding those people
accountable, right?
When they're wearing that rescuearm and the chin strap's not
fastened, well, they it's notgonna do them any good when they
(50:00):
get hit, right?
Uh they're they're outdoinghydrants and they don't have
that safety vest on.
That's you're operating in theroadway, it's not just the crash
scenes, right?
So anytime we see that, we'llcome back.
We'll kind of do like we don'twe'll do the bumper huddle, if
you will, but back at thestation and we'll talk about the
run.
We'll draw it up from the dryrace board and say, hey, this is
how we position, this is how weshould have positioned.
(50:22):
We need to fix this.
And the thing that tell theincident commanders is when you
get there, if they're notpositioned right, tell them to
reposition.
Don't sit there and know it'swrong in hopes that it works out
this time.
Correct the behavior.
But just having thosediscussions and holding your
people accountable if they'renot following the policies, how
they're gonna understand theimportance of it.
SPEAKER_01 (50:42):
Scott, thanks for hopping on with us today.
And and we should have probablytold everybody up front.
You you're in Chicago at a hotelright now in the lobby doing
this for us.
But we we felt like it was verytimely with this incident that
happened in Houston, and youknow, we just see it occurring
over and over again.
So we we wanted to get you onright away.
But you're you're in Chicago ona special detail right now.
(51:03):
So thanks for making time todayfor us to talk to you about
this.
We just scratched the surface,but I think getting the
training, looking at the policythat we're going to provide, and
you know, continuing morediscussion on this.
Is there anything anything elsethat you want to add or Josh,
you you want to add before wewrap it up today?
SPEAKER_02 (51:20):
Yeah, just my contact information will be out
there.
If you guys need anything atall, please reach out.
Uh we'll share our SFP with youand stuff.
But if there's anything I cando, anyone in our region that
sees this that needs training,I'll come out to your
department.
I'll do the Tim training inperson for your people.
Just reach out.
I'm here to help.
SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
Well, before you you go, Scott, and I know you've got
stuff to do in Chicago, helpingsome folks there, which is
really cool.
You got time to hang out and andmaybe take a minute to uh listen
and give your take on a timelesstactical truth from Alan
Bernassini.
SPEAKER_02 (51:51):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (51:51):
All right.
Again, if you live with a badtactical situation long enough,
(52:14):
you wear it.
As I see number two, you'regonna find situations that maybe
crews because they needed totake immediate action on the
scene, maybe put themselves inharm's way.
You know, what what other waysdo we own it as I see as the
incident commander on on thesehighways that we can limit that
exposure?
SPEAKER_02 (52:32):
Yeah, it's what we just talked about, right?
We get there, if it's not set upthe right way, we need to do
that.
And we have to understand thatthere are gonna be times we have
to move our vehicles.
When I get there initially andset up, once the engine gets in
by me and place and take it inthe block, I need to move my
vehicle to help create thatsafety zone.
Sometimes there's police thereahead of us, and so we need to
(52:52):
ask them to move their vehiclesas well.
So they've been good uh as we'vetrained on this to understand
that we're gonna have to be ableto move stuff around, and we may
have to move those fireapparatus around too.
So just making sure that safetyzone is created, making sure
that we are operating safely andand not just doing things
because that's the way we'vealways done it.
That's that accidental successwe talked about, and eventually
(53:13):
it's gonna catch up to us.
SPEAKER_00 (53:15):
That lines up with one of my favorite slides in the
in our whole program of thestandard, standard condition,
standard action, standardoutcome.
If you get there and theconditions that you see don't
align with the action that'sbeing taken, then you need to
fix that.
And just like on the fireground, you pull up and it's
like, okay, they took thisinitial action and it is not
(53:36):
working.
We need to change our incidentaction plan, which moving
apparatus uh to block for us toput us in the best position to
keep ourselves safe and tooperate on the on the on a
highway incident or roadwayincident is just that.
It's it's the action that we'retaking, right?
It it may not align with theconditions that we currently
(53:58):
have.
And it's okay, right?
We can't, there's no one sizefits all.
We need to have plan A, B, C, D.
You know, a lot of people talkabout just plan A, and then
sometimes they talk about planB, and it's like, well, we need
to have you know a plan and thenanother plan and then another
plan, another plan.
Our incident action plan isconstantly, constantly changing.
SPEAKER_01 (54:17):
So Scott, thank you so much for taking time uh for
us today and uh talking aboutthis very important topic.
And and again, all thatinformation will be in the show
notes.
Hopefully, you have a greatholiday and a good visit there
in Chicago, and we look forwardto seeing you again real soon.
Thanks, Scott.
Josh, thanks for being here withus today, too, on the Beat
(54:39):
Shifter podcast.
We'll talk to you again nextweek.
Thanks.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to the Boot Shifter Podcast.
You have John Vance here today,along with Josh Bloom.
Scott Williams is our guest.
Scott is a blue card bootinstructor.
He is the assistant chief of theSpringdale, Ohio Fire
Department, and has been aninstructor for several years and
in a lot of other disciplines,and has a topic that he spoke
(01:43):
about at our hazard zoneconference this year that got
brave reviews and really openeda lot of eyes for people.
And we wanted to get Scott ontoday because of some recent
events that happened in Houstonwith a roadway accident.
We talk about operating on theroadway and how dangerous it is
and how we apply the riskmanagement model.
(02:03):
And we've been talking aboutthis lately with our battalion
chiefs back home, that it's oneof the, if not the most
dangerous places we operate.
It's just as dangerous, I think,as being an IDLH.
And I refer to it as an IDLHbecause it's an environment
that's immediately dangerous tolife and health.
So we're going to help you todayas an IC to make some decisions
(02:27):
and get some resources to helpyou better manage the safety and
the risk that our people areinvolved in on the roadway.
So, Scott, thank you very muchfor being here today and
spending some time with us onthe B Shifter Podcast to pass
this information along.
We're going to start off with anincident that happened in Ohio.
(02:47):
This was a close call.
It was a distracted driver.
Let's let's set this up and thenJosh has some thoughts before we
roll the video.
SPEAKER_02 (02:56):
Yeah, so this incident happened in a
neighboring city of ours, righton I-75.
They were dispatched to thenorthbound side of the highway
for an auto accident withinjuries.
The crews uh responded.
When they arrived, this portionof the highway has got a grassy
median in between, so there's nojersey wall or anything
protecting the southbound fromthe north.
(03:18):
They set up everything on thenorthbound side of the highway
and the high-speed berm becausethe vehicle was in the grassy
area.
They had a medic and a battalionon the scene, two engines, so
the blocking engine and thefirst engine on the scene
assisting.
And they had uh the safetypatrol from ODOT there, the
Geico safety patrol vehicle.
Everybody's set up, doingeverything they're supposed to
(03:40):
do.
And we talk about this a lot,just making sure we're doing
everything right beforesomething goes wrong.
They're out of the vehicles,they're assessing the patient
and grassy median, and then theynotice another vehicle in the
southbound side of the highwayin the high speed burn.
They sent a firefighter over tocheck to see if the person was
involved in the accident.
Uh, they were.
They were knelt down at thedriver's door just talking to
(04:03):
the patient to see what theyneeded.
There was a highway patrolofficer at the back of this
vehicle, and we'll watch thisvideo here in a second.
We'll see how close things came.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
So I think I think one thing with this one is is as
you watch this, they got calledthe northbound, but it's in the
median.
So, you know, we have to havethat consideration of what's
going on southbound as well.
And you know, uh probably veryfew of us have thought about
that in the past, but thisbrings that to light that if
we're operating in the median,then we have a hazard northbound
(04:38):
and southbound that we need tothink about and consider.
So it's that IC's job to makesure that you know everybody
there has their head on a swiveland that everybody's watching,
you know, everywhere and what'sgoing on.
And then, you know, takingadvantage and using all the
resource you have available tomake the area where we're
operating safe.
(04:59):
Because, you know, northboundwas you know set up, but you
know, southbound not.
And they didn't know that, youknow, until you know, basically
right when this incidenthappened is when they realized
that there was something elsegoing on on the other side of
the median.
But even if you're operating inthe middle of the median, we
should consider northbound andsouthbound if the if there's not
a barrier, you know, there toprotect us.
SPEAKER_02 (05:19):
That is correct.
And uh we're gonna discussanother case here in a little
bit with uh crossover situationthat occurred and resulted in
three people dying in thatincident, two firefighters and a
police officer.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
So we'll go to this incident in Ohio from uh body
cam from a state trooper.
So we see this car coming, andwe're just gonna stop the video
right here, and and it's gonnaback up and show where that
(05:55):
officer was.
Human nature, if you have a carcoming at you like that, what
are most people, Scott, in yourstudies going to do to try to
get out of the way of thatautomobile?
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
Well, what they're gonna do is move to the right,
and the reason they're gonna dothat is because they know all
that traffic is moving to theirleft at highway speeds.
They see this car comingdirectly at them.
So our tendency is to move tothe right, go into that grassy
area to try to find some refuge.
And which are if this trooperwould have done that, it would
have cost him his life.
(06:27):
Fortunately, he stayed put.
SPEAKER_03 (06:53):
What were you doing?
You can't do it.
Yeah, you almost killed us.
You needed some water.
So you don't pay attention toanything on the road because
you're at thirty.
No one else.
(07:16):
There was me and anotherfirefighter, and then someone
else had just got involved inthe crash.
Okay, uh yeah, it so you'rewithin literally five feet of
hitting one of us.
Uh so it will be a mandatorycourt appearance.
I started you for failure tocontrol.
Your mandatory court day will beAugust 15th.
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
So when we talk about this being a problem,
Scott, over the last five years,what what's the number like?
How many, how many, how manyfirst responders or
firefighters, how do you havethat broken down, have been
killed in the line of duty inthese roadway incidents?
SPEAKER_02 (07:51):
So it's about 500 responders out there total, and
251 of those are emergencyresponders.
So that's the police andfirefighters over that span of
time.
And when you look at compare howmany times we're on the highway
versus the tow truck operators,uh, some of these other
individuals of police are upthere obviously more often than
(08:11):
we are when they have non-injuryaccidents.
But the tow truck and all thosegeico vehicles, safety patrols,
they're on the highways way morethan we are, but they're not
being struck as often as we are.
So it's something we really haveto look at and give some
attention to.
SPEAKER_01 (08:27):
Well, we're gonna walk through a few case studies
and then we're gonna get to somebest practices and then give you
an opportunity also to downloadan SOP that could help your
department.
So uh that that's kind of wherewe're gonna go with the podcast
today.
So the first case study we'regonna look at actually hit very
close to home for Scott.
It was his uh city's policedepartment in Springdale, Ohio.
(08:48):
They lost an officer in the lineof duty from the PD, Kaya Grant,
and that was an incident that Idon't know if it could have been
prevented, but walk us throughthis incident and tell us what
happened with this line of dutydeath.
SPEAKER_02 (09:01):
So this was uh right in the height of COVID, uh,
right when everything wasstarting to be shut down.
Um, I was on a 48-hour shift,uh, doing an overtime shift on a
Saturday, and the first half ofthat we got dispatched to an
injured person on our highway,uh, which was unusual for us.
We normally would get dispatchedfor uh auto access, maybe a
(09:21):
vehicle fire, sometimes amedical emergency up there, but
not an injured person.
So we always sent an enginecompany to any time we went to
the highway, but we reallydidn't know what we were doing
all the time when we did thatengine.
We sent the engine just becausewe wanted to have some blocking
there, but were we doing thingsappropriately?
Um, so I marked on the radio andasked the dispatch, they had
(09:43):
some additional information.
And immediately by the crackingof the dispatcher's voice, I
knew things were it wassomething significant.
Uh, she came on and told methere was an officer down that
was struck.
And so marking route, and thenI'm getting reports en route
that there's multiple officersinjured.
We enter the highway eastbound.
Uh, everything is happening inthe westbound side of the
(10:06):
highway.
And within a tenth of a mile ofus entering from our exit ramp
is where all this is happening.
And what I noticed as I enteredthe highway was Kaya was laying
uh on the high-speed bermeastbound, but everything else
was on the westbound side of thehighway.
So the medicre and I stoppedright there with her.
I get out of my vehicle, and asI'm looking over the jersey
(10:26):
wall, I can see Sergeant Davis.
He's laying in the roadwaywestbound, and he's just yelling
at me, Where's Kaya, Scott?
Where's Kaya?
And I knew where she was, and Iknew her injuries were
significant, and she wasn'tgonna survive this.
And I just told him, We got herover here, we'll take care of
her.
Uh, I look to my left, I noticedthat there's a the police have
(10:47):
the driver at gunpoint, so we'reworried about scene safety at
this point, and how secure thatscene is, and then uh trying to
make sure we had enough medicunits and everything dispatched
up to the highway.
So Sergeant Davis and Kaya weresetting up stop sticks on the
westbound side of the highway.
Kaya's vehicle was in thehigh-speed berm westbound.
(11:09):
Sergeant Davis had parked hisvehicle eastbound, jumped the
wall, and they were throwing thesticks out.
They went to the back of her carlike they were taught to do for
protection.
And this guy that was fleeingwas a suicidal subject.
He ended up uh justintentionally striking both of
them, which sent Kaya over topof the Jersey wall to the
(11:31):
eastbound side, and obviouslyshe died from her injuries.
Uh Sergeant Davis survived thisaccident, but never returned
back to work, never full duty.
He retired uh within a year fromthis happening.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So some pictures of Kaya's cruiser here.
So was she standing behind thatcruiser, or where where was she
at in relation to where thecollision happened?
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Rear of the cruiser, uh, kind of to that right where
that impact was on the left-handside there.
And he went, once he hit her,uh, he went between the jersey
wall and her cruiser down thatleft side of that car, ended up
all the way on the right-handgrassy burn of the highway.
So you can see the devastationof her vehicle and how that
(12:17):
impact was uh unbelievable tothe vehicles.
Through all this, it just mademe sit down and look at things
like what do we need to dodifferently.
SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
And how did this change your city?
I mean, I'm sure this wassomething that really impacted
the city as a whole, but how howdid it impact how you operated
on roadways and and goingforward?
How do you try to prevent thesekind of things from happening?
And as Josh said, you know, wewe could be doing it all
correctly, and it's things arestill gonna happen, but how do
(12:48):
we work to to prevent this?
And what have you guys done?
SPEAKER_02 (12:52):
Yeah, so we didn't even have a TIM policy at all at
that point, and so I started ona quest to learn about this and
and and figure things out andmake sure that everybody was
safer, both police and fire.
So I started attending a bunchof classes and FDIC, started
making connections with otherpeople that had dealt with this
(13:14):
and created a TIM policy for ourdepartment.
I've since become a TIMinstructor, uh, so I can now
teach our region uh how tooperate safely on the highway.
Started obviously with all ofour fire department.
Make the fire department istrained.
We've uh invited them to all thetraining to make sure they
understand how to operate on thehighways.
(13:35):
Now we have it just workcollectively together on the
runs.
So we work with our tow truckoperators that we deal with.
We have a rotation of operatorsthat are there all the time, so
we try to make sure theyunderstand what's going on.
And then we've actually talkedto the safety patrol people to
find out what are theirpolicies, what do they do, and
so that we can all work togetherand be safer on the highways.
(13:57):
So it's really driven what I'vedone in our region for our
response, but then just whatit's done to our department as a
whole, the police department,several officers just left the
job, right?
Our lead medic is not even inthe fire service anymore that
took care of Kaya.
He had a lot of just mentalhealth issues from that, really
(14:18):
set people over the edge.
And it was the greatest job inthe world.
I tell everybody all the timeuntil it's not, right?
And when you lose somebody likethis, whether it's a line of
duty death in a fire or it's onthe highway like this, whether
it's police fire, it doesn'tmatter, it affects you greatly.
I walked with uh Kaya's familythrough this.
(14:39):
Gina's her mother, Kevin's herfather, and it devastated their
family.
And I went with them toWashington, D.C.
when we put Kaya's name on amemorial wall.
I walked with them as they gotthe Medal of Honor from at the
Capitol building, and that wasall part of my grieving process,
being a part of everything, andjust watching them suffer
(15:00):
through that and watching whatit did to the police and fire
department.
It's the things that we don'ttalk about.
A lot of times we go to thefuneral and everybody kind of
forgets it from there.
But it's all those days, weeks,months, years after that.
That it doesn't change for thosefamilies and the people that
were that knew them andresponded to the call.
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
We're going to talk about the traffic incident
management program that or TIMthat uh Scott was referring to
coming up.
But let's talk about a coupleother incidents that have
happened because I think it theyall relate to to each other and
and can help us can continue tolearn.
Uh, one was uh recently in Ohio,a trooper Nicholas Clayton was
(15:41):
killed in line of duty on anincident.
What happened there?
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
So he was assisting on an auto accident with a
semi-truck.
He was set up behind the truckand in his vehicle, like he's
supposed to be after everythingis over with.
Get back in the vehicle to getthat extra protection.
And another semi-truck came upbehind him and struck him and
pancaked him between the twosemis.
(16:06):
And he died from his injuries.
That just happened in October innorthern Ohio here.
And then the next morning, therewas another accident in
Covington, Kentucky, which isright where Cincinnati and
Northern Kentucky meet on 71.
He was and his cruiser, the samething, struck by a vehicle.
(16:26):
He's on the scene blocking, andanother vehicle came up from
behind him and struck him.
So within that 12-hour window,we had two police officers, you
know, one both vehicles struck,but one killed, the other one
had injuries but survived theseaccidents.
SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
That that's the that's just a horrific thing to
pull up on.
And I I've done it in my careerto see, you know, seeing police
cars on their side and beendamaged so bad, and then there's
a whole other extrication issue.
One if you've got a cop trapwith all the electronics and
cages and stuff that they havein their vehicles.
And then recently we we had thisHouston incident.
(17:05):
Tell tell us what happened inHouston just a few days ago.
SPEAKER_02 (17:09):
Yeah, so they were the same thing, assisting an
18-wheeler auto accident, and onthe scene of that blocking, the
engine company had the crew backon the truck, like we talked
about.
So that's one of the big thingswe have to learn from these.
Uh that's what saved their life,right?
Oftentimes we want to stand outthere on the highway and have a
conversation with the police andtow truck, and that's not the
time to have it.
(17:30):
If you want to have aconversation with the police
officers, then come back to thepolice fire department, go to
the police station and talk tothem.
The highway is not the place forthat.
So, all these four firefighterswere back on that engine company
blocking, and another semi camethrough and struck them right in
that pump panel at the jump seatdoor.
The fire truck was literallyalmost a U-shape when it was
(17:51):
done.
They had to have two tow truckstowed off the scene to get it
because of the damage done tothe fire truck.
Uh, four firefighters wereinjured.
Uh, there's fractures involvedin these some of these injuries,
but they they're all gonnasurvive and be okay and recover
from these injuries.
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Well, so we we've talked about getting back into
the vehicle, you know, and and II look at it like the clock's
ticking when we're out on a on ahighway like that.
You know, let's let's get ourjob done, let's get out of
there.
But you we, you know, to the twoofficers and and these
firefighters were in thevehicle.
So we're saying that's bestpractice, but there's a
component of that we have tohave our seat belts on if we're
(18:30):
sitting in the vehicle, right?
SPEAKER_02 (18:31):
Is that that is correct.
And that's what uh our policy isis once they're done, they get
back in the vehicle, they puttheir seat belts on, they're
different if they wereresponding.
Uh they're they're gonna keephopefully being from being
ejected if they are struck, andthen that fire apparatus, that
vehicle is gonna give them thathopefully some protection to
absorb that energy to keep themalive.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
So let's shift gears and we'll talk about a case
study out of Lubbock, Texas.
That was uh a few years ago, andit was a crash on a highway.
It was uh the the firedepartment was responding to a
traffic accident on the highway.
Two firefighters and a policeofficer were ultimately killed
in the line of duty.
Uh, tell us about this incident.
SPEAKER_02 (19:14):
So the the individual on your left here is
firefighter Matt Dawson.
Uh Lieutenant Eric H is in themiddle, and then there was uh
police officer Renya who endedup dying in this as well.
In my quest to learn abouttraffic safety, I took this
class that Lieutenant BradyRobinette from Lovick, Texas uh
was teaching and learned abouttheir line of duty death, and it
(19:37):
made me change a lot of what wewere doing as well.
So they're set up on the autoaccident.
They had a morning where theygot a little bit of ice on the
roadways down there in Texas,and there's an elevated highway
going down the middle, and thenit's kind of two off ramps below
on each side of the highway.
They had already transported thepatients, they had a couple
(19:58):
vehicles there, and they hadleft two blocking engines but
returned the rest of thecomplement.
They had a ladder company and abattalion on the scene before
all this happened, and then twoengine companies are set up and
they're doing exactly whatthey're supposed to do again.
They're doing everything rightin preparation of something
going wrong.
They had a blocking enginesitting behind them, both
positioned but properly.
While they're there, there wasanother crash that happened on
(20:20):
their side of the highway aheadof them.
So Eric Hill and Matt Dawson gotoff the truck to walk up, like
any of us would do, to check onthose injuries.
And on the way to that wreck,another vehicle came the other
direction, crossed over thatgrassy median, and struck both
them and the police officer.
Um, Eric Hill died at the scene,as well as the police officer,
(20:45):
and Matt was transported to thehospital.
Matt survived and lived for 34months before his injuries.
The significant thing that cameout of this crash report was the
the head protection that weutilize on the highway.
Everybody uses fire helmets whenthey're out there because that's
(21:07):
what we have.
And uh any roadway worker istraditionally using a
construction helmet, and thoseare uh designed to protect you
from impact from top down, butnot from side impacts and those
anything collision related likethat or hitting the ground with
your helmet.
They both had their helmets on,but when they impacted the
ground, their helmets flew off,and Matt suffered a significant
(21:32):
brain injury from that.
And the 34 months that he livedum was rough for him, right?
Rough for the fire department.
He had a wife and a youngdaughter, and what that does.
And those are the things that wedon't think about and talk about
again, right?
It's that the financialcomponent, the emotional
component, what that's done tothose who made that run and
(21:55):
cared for him, what it's done tohis wife and daughter and
family, and those impacts aresignificant, and that's what we
really have to think about whenwe're out there operating on the
roadways.
SPEAKER_01 (22:05):
And then this is Matt, while he was trying to
recover, what what happened tohim?
And and you know, was was thereever a prognosis that you know
about that they were theythought he was gonna make it, or
did did he just suffer from somany complications that
ultimately uh took his life?
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Yeah, from what I understand, it's just uh this
all the complications to thataccident just over time uh
finally end up costing his life.
Uh they it was ruled a line ofduty death uh because the
initial injury was because hewas up on that highway and
operating.
Uh so this is why we now atSpringdale Fire Department wear
(22:44):
rescue helmets um on thehighway.
We do not um wear fire helmetswhen we're out out there
operating unless it's a vehiclefire in snow time that we wear
them.
And uh Lieutenant BradyRobinette has made it his
mission to try to get uh ahelmet made specific for roadway
use, and he's been working onthat for five five years now.
(23:09):
And in July of 24, uh theAmerican Society for Testing
Materials was able to finallypublish a standard for that
helmet.
Now we just need a manufacturerto make the helmet.
Um, so in the meantime, what dowe wear?
And so what we've done is gonewith a Team Wendy helmet, as
long as what that's the samething Lubbock has done, and it's
rated for like white waterrafting, mountaineering, uh bike
(23:34):
bicycling, all that, so that itgives the most protection it
possibly can until this otherhelmet is made.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
So aside from the helmet, which this is good
information, and and reallyyou're you're the first one I
heard, you know, bring thishelmet.
And and you know, we used towear technical rescue helmets
sometimes to do extrication justbecause it's easier to get in
and out of the cars with those,but uh probably another
application for even those kindof helmets.
But what what other gear shouldwe have on to complement our um
(24:03):
visibility and in addition toyou know whatever ANSI approves,
or you know, how should we bedressed uh while we're on a
roadway?
SPEAKER_02 (24:12):
Yeah, so ANSI 107 is our standard for that, and it's
gonna tell us what the safetyapparel we need.
And we want to think about thosevests we're wearing because
there's many out there, right?
There's some that have thelights in them that light up.
But what I want everybody toremember is they need to think
about that breakaway protection.
If you're caught on a vehicle,on a mirror, whatever it might
(24:33):
be, you want that vest thatyou're wearing, that garment
that you're wearing to be ableto tear off so that you don't
get drugged down the highway.
Uh, some of the other vests thatare out there, there are
different ones that do not breakaway, they still meet the
standard.
But if you're caught, uh itcould be drugged down the
highway.
So uh we've really beenintentional with that to make
sure that ours break away.
(24:54):
It's got all the differentVelcro points on it.
We have five different points onours that it'll break away so
that it takes that off of us.
But we want to make sure that weare wearing that safety gear.
A garment could be a vest, itcould be a jacket, even.
And those jackets obviouslyaren't gonna tear away, break
away.
But like when you go throughChick-fil-A and you see that
(25:16):
operators wearing the sashes,that's not appropriate for the
highway to use, right?
We got to make sure it's a vest.
And uh, if it's a fire, we gottabe in our turnout gear.
There's no way around that.
And that does offer somereflectivity, but when we're on
the highway, we need to makesure we have that vest on.
And then uh for us, it's alwaysa safety helmet.
Even on an entrapment, we'rewearing the state behind.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
We, you know, we're up on these roadways where
people are doing 80, 90 miles anhour, their wisdom bias.
A lot of times, law enforcementdoesn't let us shut down the the
entire road, so we still have towork within traffic, and that's
probably a whole other topic toyou know how we're gonna control
that.
But what I and you say it, Imean, our biggest problem out
(25:58):
there is distracted drivers thatend up driving right into our
apparatus or right into workersthat are trying to attend to
patients and hazards on theroadway, right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:08):
Yep, yeah.
We got those distracted drivers,right?
There's all kinds of them.
They're drunk, they're drugged,they're drowsy, they're
distracted, they're on theirphones, they're dangerous
drivers.
Sometimes there's driverlessvehicles now, right?
So we just talk about all thekey drivers that are out there.
We start thinking about all thestuff that's out there.
How is that driverless vehiclegonna know we're ahead of them,
(26:29):
right?
It's not, and so this is all thethings we're dealing with.
It's only gonna continue, and sowe have to think through that.
And those distracted drivers arewhat's gonna get us, just like
the near miss we saw in at thetop of the show here.
It was because of a distracteddriver reaching down to get some
water, looked up, and there theyare, and he's got nowhere to go.
SPEAKER_01 (26:51):
Of course, people on their phones and and people who
are living in their own worlddoing whatever they're doing in
their vehicles, and we see ithappen all the time.
So you you you spoke about Tim,the traffic incident management,
and there's some training thatgoes goes along with that.
What what is that?
And and you know, what shoulddepartments implement as far as
(27:11):
training goes to get our folksready to operate in these
environments?
SPEAKER_02 (27:16):
So nationally, there is a traffic incident management
training that's taught, and it'sthe same throughout every state.
And they they can add some, makeit more stringent, kind of like
a fire code if they choose to,each state can, but they have to
meet this minimum standard.
Uh the training is free, sothere's no reason not to get it
(27:36):
done.
Uh, you can do it in person orvirtually.
Uh, if you go to your statedepartment of transportation,
they offer it in person andvirtually as well.
I've taken ours that that'swhere I initially took mine, was
at our Iowa Department ofTransportation, one of the
offices in person to learn aboutit.
The Emergency Responder SafetyInstitute is kind of the leader
(28:00):
in all the highway stuff, andthey offer a Tim training on
their site as well, as well asthe Federal Highway
Administration.
So you can go to any of theirwebsites and you can take the
training for free if you onshift and you're doing it.
You get through there's 10modules to it.
If you get through module twoand make a run, it'll save your
progress, you come right back towhere you're at.
(28:21):
At the end of it, you're gonnaget you that certificate, and
it's gonna help you to know howall disciplines need to operate
on the highway.
So it's not just forfirefighters, it's for our
police, our tow operators, thesafety control, ODOT, any of
your Department ofTransportation workers, all
those people are trained to thesame level uh at what they're
(28:42):
strengthening.
SPEAKER_01 (28:44):
So when we get out there and and part of the
program talks about, you know,once we respond up on a on a
highway, high, high speed road,however we uh quantify that in
our jurisdiction.
Uh what's the importance ofcreating a safety zone for our
workers and how do we go aboutdoing that?
SPEAKER_02 (29:02):
Yeah, that's the safety zone is what we got to do
when we what we got to figureout and set up, right?
And that's gonna look differenton every run.
Sometimes we have maybe a car inthe middle of the highway and
like maybe lane three.
Sometimes we have a splitaccident where we've got cars on
the high speed berm and righthand burn.
And so we have to look at thatwhen we respond and figure out
(29:24):
the safest way to position.
But our medic unit should alwaysbe in front of the accident and
the fire apparatus to the backof the apparatus, and then our
safety patrol people are behindall of us because they have that
message board and they canreally light things up, let
people see things.
So it's working with your safetypatrols to make sure they
understand where you need themto set up.
(29:46):
We got to create that initialblock.
So there's a block right, blockleft, depending on how you're
positioning your truck, and wewant the block towards the way
we want traffic to flow.
So we want traffic to move tothe right of our accident.
We want to turn our truck to theright so that they are moving in
that direction.
One of the things for the pumpoperators, the apparatus
(30:06):
operators, is to turn theirwheels once they park.
So we want their wheels turnedaway from the accident.
So if that semi or somebodycomes up behind and hits us,
it's gonna move that truck theway the wheels are turned.
If the wheels are turned towardsour accident scene, it's gonna
come right into our safety zonethat we're creating.
Now, it's that risk managementwe talk about all the time,
right?
(30:26):
Um, even through our program.
When I get on the highway, uh,if I'm there in my staff car,
there's many times I don't getout of the car.
It's because it's not safe forme to do so, right?
I have to understand that is itokay for me to get out right
now?
If I get struck, who am Ihelping?
And there's times I'll pull up,I'll give the size up, create
the initial block, and wait forthe engine company to pull up
(30:48):
behind me and then reposition myvehicle and then at that point
get out and really startassessing more what we have.
So we have to think about thatthe same way we would respond to
a structure fire, same thing onthe highway.
How does it look?
You know, what are we gonna bein an offensive strategy here or
do we need to just go defensivefor a minute, then go back
(31:09):
offensive to be able to get outof the vehicle?
And we have to apply that same.
Method as we arrive on theseaccident scenes.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
So wait, would you advocate, or does the program
advocate for additionalapparatus response on highways?
And you know, our our typicalresponse used to be an engine
and maybe an ambulance, butshould we be sending more?
And what's the roles of allthose apparatus and crews that
are responding?
SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Yeah, we should be sending additional apparatus to
these crashes, and that's whatwe've kind of done in our
region, right?
We all have to work each ladetogether to make that happen.
We don't have some of us aresingle engine houses, but we
don't have multiple fireapparatuses we can throw at it.
So that's what we've done in ourregion with our Interstate 275
and Interstate 75.
(31:54):
We've all worked collectivelynow to have a mutual aid engine
dispatched.
So we ensure that we have two.
There's been times we pulled upand needed a third, and we just
asked for an additional engineand then we positioned them
where we need them.
But the initial engine is gonnaset up close to the scene in a
way that they can work the sceneas needed.
The second engine, the blockingengine, should be blocking 150
(32:17):
to 300 feet behind that initialengine.
So that training component, wetalk about, hey, you're the
blocking engine when you arrive.
Set up, you're gonna set up inthe blocking position, mere
engine 90s block, it means blockthe same way they're blocking,
but you're gonna do that 150 to300.
That company officer has to makethat decision.
So once we get the training outthere, everybody knows by you
(32:40):
know that task and uh locationobjective we're given that they
need they can make that decisionwithin how far back they need to
do it.
So we uh and then when you havethat split accident that
happens, it crashes on ahigh-speed right-hand burn with
that extra engine.
You can just put one engine tothe right, one engine to the
left, and you've got a block onboth sides.
So it accomplishes many thingshaving at least two engines on
(33:02):
that initial dispatch.
SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
Probably more than any of us that uh work here with
B Shifter, you know, Josh is onthe phone and and out talking to
fire chiefs and fire serviceleaders every single day.
Josh is relaying to me that weget pushback on this best best
practice.
Have you encountered that, Josh?
You know, give us some examplesof some pushback on sending the
(33:25):
additional apparatus.
SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
Yeah, so um in typical you know, fashion when
people get into certainpositions, they forget about the
work and it becomes more aboutyou know what what they're
comfortable with or what theyfeel is important or or
whatever.
And that and they're not theones that are standing out there
in the roadway.
So I mean, over the last how tosay 10 years, I've heard plenty
(33:52):
of instances of people returningeven the first engine and just
leaving a medic unit on thehighway.
Well, we're just we're we'rereducing our exposure, we're
sending them back.
And it's like, well, but youjust left an ambulance by
themselves on the highway to gethit.
And the answer is you know, theresponse sometimes is, well, I
don't need that, I don't needthat million-dollar fire truck
(34:12):
up there.
If that thing gets totaled, youknow, it'll take five now, it'll
take, you know, it'll take fiveyears to replace that, and it's
gonna cost us a million dollarsand whatever.
And it's like, well, you heardor kill four firemen or six
firemen, or tractor trailer runsinto the back of that ambulance
with, you know, two paramedicsand a patient in it, and now
nobody's there, right?
So, you know, we're sendingapparatus there for the reason
(34:36):
of creating that safety zone forus.
I I always loved in the in myprevious life we're gonna go to
inclement weather response onthe highway, and we're only
gonna send the minimum resourceof a medic unit and one engine.
And it's like that's the mostignorant thing I've ever heard
in my life.
When we're at the biggest riskof, you know, the highway being
(34:58):
iced over, snow, you know,whatever, and and we're gonna
reduce our response to limit ourexposure.
And it's like, well, you'relimiting your exposure of maybe
a total on a fire truck, butyou're not limiting your
exposure of your firefightersthat are operating out there on
the highway getting hurt orkilled.
So we have to start with it, allgoes back for me for starting
(35:20):
with the work.
Like, what does it take to dothe work that we need to do?
And part of working on thehighway or working in any
incident roadway is evaluationof those critical factors.
And it's sounding kind of likethe same system that we use for
everything we go to.
That's why our program andsystem is all hazards.
What are the critical factors?
You can apply it to an autoaccident, you can apply it to a
(35:42):
violent crimes incident, you canapply it to an ARF incident, you
can apply it to anything, right?
So we have to get there and makedecisions and think.
And I guess the second piece ofthat that I hear all the time is
well, the the patient's in theambulance now, and we're going
to return all the companies.
It's like, no, we we sent themthere for a reason.
(36:04):
We will all leave together.
And I'd like to hear Scott'skind of input on that.
Like the the medic unit willleave maybe before everybody
else, but we shouldn't leave themedic unit sitting there by
themselves as a target, is theway I look at it, you know, on
the highway or or on any otherroadway.
That we're we're just leaving abig exposure there.
So if we want to talk about thelimiting exposure, the best way
(36:24):
we limit exposure is use theresources that we have available
to protect our most valuableasset, and that is the people
who work on the fire trucks anddo the work.
The that piece of equipment, Iget it, it's a million dollars
or two million dollars orwhatever.
But in this case, it's there toprotect us, no different than uh
(36:46):
you know, so many other thingswe have, right?
We we wear an SCBA to protect usfrom you know toxic you know
conditions inside of an ideal Henvironment.
And we don't take the stance onthat of, oh, don't wear your
SCBA in there.
It's getting it's it's you'reexposing it and it's getting
worn down, and it's like, no,that's bullshit.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Yeah, it and so like in the state of Ohio, we have a
quick clearance wall so we canactually move vehicles and get
them out of the way.
So when we talk about limitingthat exposure, it's don't leave
these cars in the middle of thelanes.
Once we get the patience out ofthem, let's get them off the
road, right?
And so they that's where yoursafety patrol will work with
you.
It's like their structure fire,man.
(37:27):
They love it.
Like they get out there andthey'll get these cars and
demolition derby and move themoff to the side of the road.
And we do this all the time, butbefore Kaya, we never thought
about it.
And now we just clear them outof the way, get them over to one
of the berms, and then we canreduce that response down to a
police officer and uh and thesafety patrol there until the
(37:48):
toad gets there.
We also want to think aboutthose police officers that are
out there, even when thatmedicure leaves, right?
We didn't think much about itbefore.
We kind of cleared with ourmedicinal.
Now we want to think about them.
They're sitting there bythemselves.
If we need to keep that enginethere a little bit longer to
block for them until we can getthings moved, sometimes you
can't move the vehicles ifyou're stable, they just gotta
(38:09):
stay put.
We try to work with our toes andour police and make sure we keep
that engine in as long as we canto protect for them as well.
So it's really changed ourmindset after going through Ty's
path.
SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
You you talked about the traffic incident management
training.
We'll we'll provide a link tothat too in the show notes.
How how do you get an SOP forthis?
And and what should the SOP looklike?
And and then what was really theprocess of you implementing the
SOP that you have at Springdale?
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
I think that our guys were hungry for it, so I
didn't think it was difficultfor the guys to grab a hold of
it and utilize it.
Um, they've embraced it.
Even when I've you know comeback with the rescue helmets and
done that, they've uh theyreally embraced that as well.
We'll give you a sample SOG.
I'll share ours with you at theend of the show, it'll be in the
(39:01):
notes and stuff for you.
In that, it's gonna show you thedifferent blocks that you have
to do.
So if you have that crossoverhappen, if you have the split
accident, all those differentthings, it shows you how to
create that safety zone with anactual diagram in it, as well as
detailing out what the responseneeds to be from personal
protective equipment to there'sa rescue helmet component in
(39:21):
there.
And then one of the key thingsthat uh came out um about a year
ago with Matt's NIOSH report, Iwent through all the key
recommendations to see if therewas anything we needed to
change.
And we had a spotter, we weassigned a safety officer on
every run as a spotter, and alltheir job is is to watch
everything that's going on.
(39:41):
So whether it's the battalionand the district car or if it's
the lieutenant on the enginecompany, if it's me, it doesn't
matter.
Somebody has to be assigned toit, and that's a position we
assign out on every crash.
But how do we alert them, right?
How do we let them know danger'scoming?
And if we go to key the mic upand it's busy and we get that
bonk, that busy signal.
(40:03):
Uh, if we try to yell andtraffic's going by us and they
can't hear us, how are we gonnaalert them?
So, what we did after that NIOSreport is we put a marine horn
in the front seat of the enginefor the officer.
We keep one in all the chief'scars, and whoever the spotter is
has that marine horn.
Um, and then we've talked, youknow, not only do our guys need
(40:24):
to know this, our police, ourtow operators, the safety
patrol.
So we've trained all of them.
Our mutual aid partners that areresponding with us on these.
If you hear that horn,something's inbound, and you
just need a heads up and move.
So that's how we've kind oflearned how to alert people.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Where is the best place for that safety lookout uh
person to be positioned?
Where where do you advocate forthem to be?
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
It really depends on where the how the crash is set
up, but they got to be set backin a way where they can watch
for the oncoming traffic comingat them.
We're in a fortunate spot on ourhighway where we've got a
jerseywall the entire stretch ofour highway now.
Uh we used to have thatcrossover worry.
So now they can sit back andlook at that.
I respond to every car wreck inour city when I'm on shift, and
(41:12):
all I do is position somewhereto assist in creating that
safety zone.
And 95% of the time I don't evenget out of my car.
So I'll keep that marine horn inmy hand with the window down,
watching my mirrors.
And if I see something, I'll hitthat as well.
So when I'm on the scene, wegenerally have two safety
officers that are just all we'redoing is just watching traffic.
(41:35):
So once we get everybody back inthe truck while we're waiting on
the tow, we don't have thatsafety officer out there
anymore.
But anytime we're off off of atruck, somebody's got to be
assigned to that level.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
As fast as technology is evolving, we're
getting more tools for us tobetter manage this.
Uh, I love some of the stuff thecops are doing now, and that's
that's a whole other topic.
Police chases and the thegrappling hook now that they
have that can wrap the axle ofthe car they're chasing and just
disable the vehicle.
That that's a huge advancementfor that.
(42:07):
But there's these uh new digitalalerting systems.
You were talking about that atthe conference.
What are those and how does thatwork?
SPEAKER_02 (42:14):
Yeah, so the digital alerting, um, there's new
technology after that.
And the company that we wentwith uh is Haas Alert, they use
the uh safety cloud, and we haveput these, we have to put these
transponders on every one of ourvehicles, and they're tied to
our emergency lights.
So every time we turn theemergency lights on, it sends
out a signal and alerts peoplethat we are responding, so it'll
(42:37):
pop up on their infotainmentsystems and their navigation
apps and tell them, hey, there'san emergency vehicle ahead or
responding, approaching.
If we're sitting on a scene onthe highway, then it tells them
there's an emergency vehicleahead.
So it gives them a 30-secondnotice before uh they get to us.
We I just looked at our statsthis morning last month.
(43:00):
We alerted 2,800 drivers uh inour city responding to calls and
working on our roadways andhighways.
So it's another again,technology is evolving, it's
another thing out there.
We got to take advantage of it.
It's just to me, it's worth thecost to keep our guys safe.
So I went to Chief with it andhe didn't balk at it at all.
(43:21):
He's about to make it happen.
SPEAKER_01 (43:22):
So Scott, we we really appreciate you being with
us today and and and walking usthrough some of these incidents
that happened and also bestpractices.
We'll have your contactinformation also in the show
notes if somebody wants to reachout to you and get more
information.
I I think it's a topic we don'ttalk about enough, especially
when it comes to the dangersthat that our folks face.
SPEAKER_00 (43:45):
I just want to I just want to put it out there
that we're uh we've been we'vebeen working on it for I don't
know, six months.
Scott and I have been back andforth probably on the creating a
CE module to put in the downloadcenter, you know, for for people
to have as a CE for this trafficincident management.
And it's not going to replace, Imean, I encourage everybody to
(44:05):
just go take the free course,right?
But this is just gonna be a CEmodule kind of as a reminder,
refresher is the incidentcommander IC one and two.
You know, what are our roles?
What are our considerations?
Um, and then really drive peopleto, you know, the Thames
training program to to gothrough it.
There's really there's no excuseto go through it, right?
It's gonna cost you only thingit's gonna cost you is a little
(44:27):
bit of your time, and hopefullyit would will make a difference
out on the fire ground.
And then the other comment I hadwas you you had mentioned Scott,
how did you how'd you implementthis?
And at Springdale, you know, heum you run an SOG to say this is
what we're gonna do, this is whywe're gonna do it, and then you
then you enforce that.
And you know, so many places wesee, oh, we're gonna jump on
(44:48):
that because it's the coolthing.
And then uh even our own even inour own area, it's like you your
boss bought that equipment andhe put you through the training,
but you're standing in themiddle of the roadway in your
sweatshirt, like why why aren'tyou and you but you have all of
the stuff, so why aren't youdoing anything with that?
And that comes back to theaccountability model, right?
(45:11):
Like we have to hold peopleaccountable.
We we told you what theexpectation is, we trained you
on it, and now we're gonna holdyou accountable for it.
And we're doing all of this forus, right?
I mean, it's it's for us, it'sfor the police department, it's
for the tow truck drivers, it'sfor us.
And it this this has nothing todo really with the customer,
except for we can't do our jobif we become a victim.
(45:34):
So that's why we have to bedoing everything right when
something goes wrong.
And it doesn't mean fire trucksand ambulances and police cars
aren't going to get hit.
It's just that we have to takethe approach of we're operating,
and John, I'm on with you.
It's an ideal H environment whenyou're on the highway.
That was we get here where Ilive, we have two miles of
northbound 75 that's allelevated right there.
(45:54):
And, you know, if it if itrains, it becomes like an ice
rink.
And it's like, it's the worstplace you could ever operate.
And it's like, I I have no, no,no, no issues ever shutting down
the highway.
And, you know, Scott, I thinkmentioned and John mentioned the
well, what do you do with thepolice?
They always want the highwayopen.
And I think it goes back toanother project that Chief
(46:14):
Williams has done so well withis we we don't talk to the
police except for to joke withthem.
And in this case, it's like, no,we need to have a conversation
about why are we doing what wedo and get their buy-in, no
different than the firedepartment doesn't like the
dispatch center because theydon't do what we want them to.
Well, have you ever told them orasked them to do what you want
them to do?
And it's that relationshipthing, right?
(46:36):
It all comes back torelationships and getting on the
same page, not trying to figureit out when the bell rings and
you're standing on the highwaywith cars zipping past you at 70
miles an hour.
Just have the conversation ofwhy.
And I think in the last 10 yearsaround here, even before Tim
stuff, you know, all the wayback to Brandon Guerin getting
hit here in Lachland, you know,from a police pursuit.
(46:57):
And then, you know, severalother instances where, you know,
accidents happened, secondaryaccidents happened.
Police officers have much moreof that mindset of no, I'm not
gonna die up here.
I don't, we can shut it down allnight.
A lot of that mindset of, no, myI'm the highway patrol and my my
job is to make sure that trafficflows no matter what.
(47:19):
You know, we have to work withthem and make sure that we keep
traffic flowing the best we can,but they become a lot more open
now that we've had discussionsand talked to them about why we
do what we do.
And I mean, that's that's justwhat you have to do.
Not try to figure it out uh nottry to figure it out later.
And uh as I as I was saying thatI don't want to go down that
path because it'll be a storyNick can tell later, but kind of
(47:42):
lines up with an old NickBrunissini story with the with
the police in a conflict on thehighway.
But yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
Well, and and a lot of us have had those conflicts
with with police on the highway.
I I I worked uh uh a departmentthat covered 94 in Michigan, and
we and we work with thosedepartments still up in
Michigan.
And Amy Schnerel Pennywith, anAnn Arbor firefighter, was
killed uh about 10 years ago on94.
Same exact there they were outat a car accident.
(48:11):
I believe it was a single engineresponse, but don't quote me
100% on that.
But an out-of-control car endedup hitting Penny, even though
her lieutenant like gave thewarning, like, and and two of
the firefighters were able tojump over the barrier.
Unfortunately, Amy didn't makeit and was struck by the
vehicle.
So we see this happen over andover again.
(48:31):
And I think like so many thingsthat we do with B Shifter and
Blue Card, we we want to preventthis from happening to your
department.
You don't have to go throughthis, and that's why we're
sharing this information withyou today.
Yeah, Scott, I wanted to getyour take on this because you
know, especially when I'm alater arriver and I I have an
area that I've covered that youknow it takes me 15 minutes to
(48:51):
get there, and I'll pull up andthe engine crew is assisting the
tow truck driver with floor dryand getting things off the road.
Is is that an appropriate use ofour crews?
And if we're gonna do that, whatshould we be doing in an you
know, where we havediscretionary time now?
We're not attending to a patientor taking care of somebody who's
having an emergency.
We're just trying to maybe helpthe tow truck drivers.
(49:12):
Is that a good use of ourpersonnel and our resources?
And if we're gonna do how howshould we go about that?
SPEAKER_02 (49:18):
Yeah, we do that.
We try again, it's like clearquick clearance, right?
Get that roadway open as quicklyas we can, get the flow of
traffic.
That's the best thing we can doto keep everybody safe.
So we've put like leaf blowerson our truck so that we can move
big piles of debris across thehighway and try to get into one
lane before we're trying tocollect it up with a broom and a
(49:39):
dustban.
So we've changed some stuff thatwe've done there.
We used to just have brooms, andeverybody's out in the middle of
the highway standing theretrying to sweep all this debris
up.
So there's little things likethat that we do.
But back to what Josh was sayingtoo is just holding those people
accountable, right?
When they're wearing that rescuearm and the chin strap's not
fastened, well, they it's notgonna do them any good when they
(50:00):
get hit, right?
Uh they're they're outdoinghydrants and they don't have
that safety vest on.
That's you're operating in theroadway, it's not just the crash
scenes, right?
So anytime we see that, we'llcome back.
We'll kind of do like we don'twe'll do the bumper huddle, if
you will, but back at thestation and we'll talk about the
run.
We'll draw it up from the dryrace board and say, hey, this is
how we position, this is how weshould have positioned.
(50:22):
We need to fix this.
And the thing that tell theincident commanders is when you
get there, if they're notpositioned right, tell them to
reposition.
Don't sit there and know it'swrong in hopes that it works out
this time.
Correct the behavior.
But just having thosediscussions and holding your
people accountable if they'renot following the policies, how
they're gonna understand theimportance of it.
SPEAKER_01 (50:42):
Scott, thanks for hopping on with us today.
And and we should have probablytold everybody up front.
You you're in Chicago at a hotelright now in the lobby doing
this for us.
But we we felt like it was verytimely with this incident that
happened in Houston, and youknow, we just see it occurring
over and over again.
So we we wanted to get you onright away.
But you're you're in Chicago ona special detail right now.
(51:03):
So thanks for making time todayfor us to talk to you about
this.
We just scratched the surface,but I think getting the
training, looking at the policythat we're going to provide, and
you know, continuing morediscussion on this.
Is there anything anything elsethat you want to add or Josh,
you you want to add before wewrap it up today?
SPEAKER_02 (51:20):
Yeah, just my contact information will be out
there.
If you guys need anything atall, please reach out.
Uh we'll share our SFP with youand stuff.
But if there's anything I cando, anyone in our region that
sees this that needs training,I'll come out to your
department.
I'll do the Tim training inperson for your people.
Just reach out.
I'm here to help.
SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
Well, before you you go, Scott, and I know you've got
stuff to do in Chicago, helpingsome folks there, which is
really cool.
You got time to hang out and andmaybe take a minute to uh listen
and give your take on a timelesstactical truth from Alan
Bernassini.
SPEAKER_02 (51:51):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (51:51):
All right.
Again, if you live with a badtactical situation long enough,
(52:14):
you wear it.
As I see number two, you'regonna find situations that maybe
crews because they needed totake immediate action on the
scene, maybe put themselves inharm's way.
You know, what what other waysdo we own it as I see as the
incident commander on on thesehighways that we can limit that
exposure?
SPEAKER_02 (52:32):
Yeah, it's what we just talked about, right?
We get there, if it's not set upthe right way, we need to do
that.
And we have to understand thatthere are gonna be times we have
to move our vehicles.
When I get there initially andset up, once the engine gets in
by me and place and take it inthe block, I need to move my
vehicle to help create thatsafety zone.
Sometimes there's police thereahead of us, and so we need to
(52:52):
ask them to move their vehiclesas well.
So they've been good uh as we'vetrained on this to understand
that we're gonna have to be ableto move stuff around, and we may
have to move those fireapparatus around too.
So just making sure that safetyzone is created, making sure
that we are operating safely andand not just doing things
because that's the way we'vealways done it.
That's that accidental successwe talked about, and eventually
(53:13):
it's gonna catch up to us.
SPEAKER_00 (53:15):
That lines up with one of my favorite slides in the
in our whole program of thestandard, standard condition,
standard action, standardoutcome.
If you get there and theconditions that you see don't
align with the action that'sbeing taken, then you need to
fix that.
And just like on the fireground, you pull up and it's
like, okay, they took thisinitial action and it is not
(53:36):
working.
We need to change our incidentaction plan, which moving
apparatus uh to block for us toput us in the best position to
keep ourselves safe and tooperate on the on the on a
highway incident or roadwayincident is just that.
It's it's the action that we'retaking, right?
It it may not align with theconditions that we currently
(53:58):
have.
And it's okay, right?
We can't, there's no one sizefits all.
We need to have plan A, B, C, D.
You know, a lot of people talkabout just plan A, and then
sometimes they talk about planB, and it's like, well, we need
to have you know a plan and thenanother plan and then another
plan, another plan.
Our incident action plan isconstantly, constantly changing.
SPEAKER_01 (54:17):
So Scott, thank you so much for taking time uh for
us today and uh talking aboutthis very important topic.
And and again, all thatinformation will be in the show
notes.
Hopefully, you have a greatholiday and a good visit there
in Chicago, and we look forwardto seeing you again real soon.
Thanks, Scott.
Josh, thanks for being here withus today, too, on the Beat
(54:39):
Shifter podcast.
We'll talk to you again nextweek.
Thanks.
Thank you.
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