June 5, 2025 • 37 mins
This episode features Nick Brunacini, Terry Garrison, and John Vance.
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This episode was recorded at the AVB CTC in Phoenix, AZ on June 5, 2025.
We explore how perspective in leadership impacts firefighter safety and organizational effectiveness.
Join us for part 2 next week
• A number of firefighters involved in recent line-of-duty deaths were between 25-30 years old
• Danger exists when leaders prioritize being "cool" over passing down hard-earned wisdom
• Effective leadership requires the ability to say "no" in hazardous situations
• Perspective naturally evolves with experience and knowledge
• Tactical supervision (the middle command layer) is critical during extended operations
• Accountability and kindness are not mutually exclusive leadership traits
• Consistency in leadership approach across all contexts maintains organizational integrity
• Operating within effective systems prevents freelancing and improves safety outcomes
• After-action reviews are essential for continuous improvement and perspective development
Join us next week for part two of this special podcast on leadership and perspective in the fire service.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the B Shifter podcast.
Just getting on here real quickto let you know this is a
two-part podcast on perspective.
We split it up into two because, quite frankly, we had a very
good, productive, longconversation and we wanted to
make sure that it was digestibleto everyone who likes to
(00:20):
consume the B Shifter podcast.
So here is part one of ustalking about perspective.
Welcome to the B Shifterpodcast.
(00:40):
Today you have John Vance,terry Garrison, nick Brunicini
in the studio here at the Alan VBrunicini Command Training
Center in Phoenix, arizona.
How are you, gentlemen, doingtoday?
Very good, very good.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I'm doing as good as he is.
Yeah, as well as he is.
I'm going to use properlanguage.
That's good to hear I'm doingwell also Very well.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Very well he is.
I'm going to use properlanguage.
That's good to hear I'm doingwell, also Very well, very well,
thank you, not to get intopolitics.
Well, we won't get intopolitics.
I was watching a hearing theother day, and I couldn't
imagine it was a hearing oneducation, and the English that
the Congress people and senatorswere using was not at all
proper.
So you do much better than theydo.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh you know.
So one day when my grandsoncame home and for some reason he
was convinced about when he wasabout eight, that the word
stupid was a bad word Like you,don't call people stupid, that's
like a bad, that's as bad assaying a cuss word.
So he came home and he said akid said a bad word in school
(01:51):
today.
And I said what did he say?
He said he said the E word.
I said the E word.
What's the E word?
He goes ignorant.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I said, let's talk buddy.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So, yeah, ignor buddy .
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Ignorant the E word.
I used to convince my sisterthat there were curse words that
didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'd make them up, oh nice.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I at one time had her convinced that if she said Guy
Lombardo, that was equivalent tothe F word.
So, and then I'd get her to sayit, Then I'd yell like mom, she
said it again.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
How's her counseling?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
going now.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, All right Today .
Hey, the topic that we want totalk about and I think there's
going to be an article coming upin the B Shifter Buckslip and
on the B Shifter website aboutthis is perspective, and the
Webster's Dictionary definesperspective.
(02:49):
I'm sounding like Dr Phil there, right?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
That's how he starts out every episode Perspective.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Now you're getting into politics, Vance yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
People using their language wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It's more Adam Ray as Dr Phil.
That's really what my imitationis.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Not like prospective.
Like the Hells Angels, you gota prospect.
No, no Perspective Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Pers and the Webster's Dictionary definition
is a particular attitude towardor a way of regarding something
and a point of view.
And the reason I brought thisup for us to talk about and I'm
interested in your take on thisis we've been looking at these
NIOSH reports here that came outin the last month or so and
(03:36):
there's been seven or eight thathave dropped, and I noticed 75%
of the firefighters involved inthe line of duty deaths were
about 25 to 30 years old, and sothese are younger people to the
job that and you can readbetween the lines on the reports
leadership failed at some point, whether it was a lack of
(03:56):
division, boss.
There was one in particularwhere chief officers were given
assignments and they refusedthose assignments.
The chiefs themselves werefreelancing, and then there were
people in defensive conditionsbut they were in offensive
positions with master streams inthe building and then, you know
(04:18):
, inevitably a collapse.
So I'm thinking about you knowwhat messages aren't these guys
getting?
And the other thing that I wroteabout in the article and I just
want to get your take on thisis there are a lot of people in
leadership positions that wantto be cool, and the way that
(04:38):
they're relating to the youngerfirefighters is really meeting
them on their level, instead ofbringing them up with their
perspective and passing on a lotof very hard-learned lessons.
You know same thing.
Nick and I were at the airport,at FDIC, and we were surrounded
by a bunch of guys that haddefund, nfpa and these shirts on
(05:01):
, and all those standards,whether it's an OSHA standard or
an FPA standard that has to dowith safety was written with the
blood of somebody at some point.
I mean, there's reasons forthat Perspective.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Let's talk about us passing our perspective down
Before we do, would you givethat statistic again, because
you said it kind of quick, but Iwant to hear what's the
percentage of the young folks?
What would you?
What'd you say?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
well, I about half of these reports at least had had,
uh, out of the seven or eighthad 25 to 35 year old
firefighters.
Okay, and in this particulartime.
So that's, that's just a sampleof what I saw.
No, that's important right?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, because perspective is contagious, right
?
I mean, you think about that,how the influence, and I think
that's the whole key toleadership.
Right, if you talk aboutleadership, you talk about the
ability to influence people tomove in a certain direction.
By influence I mean, hey, youwant people to want to move in
(06:03):
that direction.
That's influence.
That's not forcing somebody tomove, although sometimes leaders
have to force somebody into acertain direction but I think we
have a responsibility toinfluence our young firefighters
.
Chief officers have aresponsibility to influence
those people that work for them,and it kind of everybody works
(06:24):
for somebody and I think that'sthe key.
So for me, when you saidperspective and it's in the way
you described that it makes alot of sense that we need to
always do a better job with that.
And I see organizations rightnow that I used to work for,
(06:46):
where being the leader meansbeing a cool guy, to go along,
to get along and I've beenaccused of that personally.
Is that?
Oh yeah, you're just a good?
No, I, I'm nice to people, likeChief Bernasini was nice to
people, to people but, yeah, Ifeel like I had certain
(07:08):
standards regarding firefightersafety and customer service that
if you didn't meet thosestandards, then I would hold you
accountable and I would stillnice at the end of the day, but
you're going to do it this wayand there was a clear
understanding.
So you know, we talked about, Ithink, not long ago, about how
we set the culture, and I thinkthis is all once again about
culture and how a fire chief andhow the leaders have a
(07:31):
responsibility to set theculture.
And then how do you do that?
Because you create the culturefor your organization, right,
nick?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, well, perspective changes throughout
your life.
So I read something the otherday.
They said the wise of eachgeneration learn the same truths
.
Well, as you learn and absorbmore knowledge, it changes your
perspective.
So there were like the leadersin our organization.
(08:04):
So there were like the leadersin our organization.
One of them said the older Iget in this position, the less
regard I have for property,talking about structural
firefighting.
So they kind of and I thinktheir perspective is all their
experience combined and kind ofthe way they view things.
(08:26):
So your perspective changes asyou gain more and more
experience.
It should.
And we all kind of start youngand enthusiastic and thinking
that, ok, this is what thislooks like and for me to be
accepted by the group, this isthe way I have to manage myself.
And then I think over a periodof time you learn like, okay,
(08:49):
that I understand the groupthink, but it's not always right
and this is the way to correctthat and move on.
And in these podcasts you keeptalking a lot about the process
and systems.
Well, that is the way I think.
The older you get, the moreexperience you get, the more you
rely on those systems, becausethat's the way you connect the
(09:10):
team of people.
So in firefighting is a teamactivity, so you have to manage
it as such.
But you know, with those threelevels and everything else that
we've talked about in blue card,so those three levels and
everything else that we'vetalked about in blue card so,
but a lot of this, like when wecame up, there was a certain
perspective, because ourdepartment was always changing,
(09:33):
was always moving forward insome way or another.
There was there wasn't a wholelot of static stuff that people
hung on to.
Now, you know, being a goodfirefighter looked the same,
like on the task level, and youwould look at some of those
folks that you would say, okay,that person's a good firefighter
.
And then you like to sit downand actually define it though,
(09:53):
say, okay, well, what's thatmean?
Even Well, they're very fast,they make quick decisions, they
always put the line in the rightplace, they put the fire out,
kind of a thing.
So you know they're aggressive.
All those like little buzzwordsthat we love to this is first,
one second counts, kind of stuff.
Well, I think the more you goon and the more you watch it and
(10:14):
do it and learn it, you justbecome more of a, you go from an
apprentice to more of an expertview of the thing, especially
when you look on those threelike the task, tactical and
strategic levels of what goesinto a fire attack.
So I think operating in a systemwhere you do after action
(10:38):
reviews in the name of improvingfuture operations, is that that
puts the right motion in placeto keep everybody moving forward
.
Because I think what happens iswhen you stop doing that and
you just, it becomes static.
Then the noise echoes and itgets too loud.
The task level, this is therah-rah.
(11:00):
You think no, that is uh-uh.
You're not.
90% enthusiasm and 10% labor iskind of what we're looking for
in this thing.
You have to temper it becauseof where we're executing all
that and places it'll kill you.
So to kind of get back to yourpoint is like you're talking
about people wearing I don'tbelieve in regulating us in any
(11:23):
way or staging, because we haveto get there and take immediate
split second action to keep allthis you know the world from
burning down.
And when you really look at ityou think, ok, yeah, there is a
place for that and that's ourpre response kind of readiness.
But once we get to the scene,you've got to base your actions
(11:48):
on what's actually happening,and I guess the most recent
example I'll use so we use thissystem to do our work, keep it
effective, keep everybody safe.
Well, if you've got a buildingthat's, let's say, in the
community and it's had a couplefires in it, and the owners of
the building say we don't wantthis building anymore, they
(12:11):
fence it and they're going tothe city to get a demolition
permit to remove it fromexistence, they're going to haul
it to the dump and then they'regoing to build a new building
there.
So this building sits there fora period of time and now
somebody somehow catches on fireat night.
Fire department responds andthen everybody acts like it's an
(12:35):
open, functioning daycarecenter that we have to go in and
get all clears on immediatelybecause there's children dying
in there.
No, this is a vacant, abandonedbuilding that's fenced.
That when we had to breakthrough the fence and then the
building's still secured.
So if we go in, the only peoplethat are going to be in there
(12:59):
are firefighters and you have adefensive fire in it.
So let's say the IC calls outand says it's defensive, but
nobody's managing the thing andat the end of the incident you
end up with.
You talked about an IOSH report.
So somebody takes actionoffensive action in a defensive
fire and it costs them theirlife.
(13:20):
Well, you need a pretty maturesystem.
Well, first of all, to keepthat from happening, because
that's really where the rubbermeets the road in the thing.
But first of all to keep thatfrom happening, because that's
really where the rubber meetsthe road in the thing.
But if it does happen, you haveto have a mature system to
somehow recover from that, tokeep that from happening in the
future over and over again,because of these emotional cries
(13:42):
to shape the department in acertain way and you think this
really isn't doing us any good.
So I mean you could just usingthat scenario.
There's like criminal liabilityat the root of that for the
leadership of the firedepartment and in fact this has
happened in cities where thecity, after the report came out,
(14:03):
the city met with the firedepartment and said you can't do
this anymore.
If you take this action, thecity is not going to pay for it,
so you're on your own at thispoint.
It happened in Baltimore a fewyears ago, where it was a
defensive fire.
They took action anyway and thecity finds out later on, they
say well, what are you doing?
(14:24):
Well, you know we have to.
So now you have these peoplerepresenting the fire department
that don't have.
They're representing themselves.
They don't represent themembers of the fire department.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
We do not want politicians regulating how we
fight fires, so we got to besmarter and do it the correct
way.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah, it's pretty tough when the mayor has to run
the fire department.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
You, don't want that.
You know what I found in theway you started and I agree with
everything you say, obviouslybecause we grew up in the same
system.
But that whole deal where doingyour job as a leader and
holding people accountable isnot synonymous with being nice.
And what Bruno did really wellis we had a system, a process,
(15:06):
and you can use theaccountability process.
You could use a performancemanagement process, whatever,
and that held people accountable.
Because it just sayaccountability, because it's
simpler Set expectations, trainpeople to do the job with their
expectation, monitor theirperformance as a supervisor and
then hold them accountablethrough some sort of after
(15:28):
action and then learn from thatand then put that back in the
system and start again.
He had that process, but thenhe layered on top of it.
Be nice as you're doing that,because when you're nice, people
will listen to you and theywill respond better than when
you're an asshole.
It's just that simple.
Have you ever responded as anasshole.
(15:52):
Have you ever when one asshole?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
meets another asshole , you you've got a room full of
assholes.
It's like an arms race ofa-holes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And then we all wonder where all the shit come
from you, think well, yeah, so Ithink when people start talking
about that's, I think that'swhat they confuse too, and
they're also, if you just layeron top of that, when you get
into the IDLH and the hazardzone you need and Bruno used
charts and graphs and gauges sowell and I could just picture a
(16:20):
graph where you got the hazardzone and it lays out like this
and it's like one.
Like it is is right, here, it'sthe most dangerous place you
could do well.
You need to be a leader, morethere than any place else in the
system, right?
So we go back to our firestation, say I'm a, I'm a fire
captain and a supervisor, and Igo back to the fire station.
(16:43):
I don't need my own plate andchair at the table right, I
don't need that, but when I'm,and you know what, we'll talk
about the tv and it's alldemocratic at the fire station.
We'll talk about what we wantto eat, all that kind of shit.
We'll even decide hey, you guys, what do you want to do?
Today?
It's a saturday.
We got to clean the truck, butwhat else we?
(17:04):
That's all good stuff, but whenyou get on the fire ground, it
needs, needs to be autocratic,and I think what happens is
sometimes our young leadersconfuse that and they take that
let's get along, go along to getalong attitude and they process
that on a fire ground becausethere's nothing.
A young firefighter wants to domore with an axe than swing it.
(17:27):
And we saw that many years agowhen we had that fire and guys
got hurt because we had a youngfirefighter that had an axe.
Defensive fire walked up tothis giant warehouse that's on
fire and decided I'm just goingto remove the wooden lintel
around this door, took his axe,hit it and the entire brick wall
(17:49):
fell down on him and a couplepeople.
But that was an action that hefelt like he should do because
he's a young person and he wantsto do something.
Yeah.
I showed it, I showed it, but hehad a supervisor there and that
supervisor had anothersupervisor there and they all
allowed that to happen.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, even more sadder was, there was a safety
officer standing there watchingit.
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was.
Yeah, the system.
Everybody was like well, it'snot my job, it's like well,
whose is it then?
I mean, there's three peoplehere that should have stopped
this and nobody did.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah.
So I think what's happening isall this gets wound up.
Like the guy in Texas used tosay, we get wound up on a stump
on this one.
Because I think they'reconfusing with the fact that we
talk in blue card a lot andwe're going to talk about this
in leadership a lot, that youshould be nice to your employees
.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, but those are two different things.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Let me so most, and nice means kind, but the most
unkind thing you can do, brunowould say, is what Is accept
poor performance Is to let a guyget themselves, guy or girl get
hurt on the fire ground or getscrewed up in the system, or
allow them that the whole systemis there to support the worker
(19:10):
so the worker can support or canserve the customer.
And that's what that wholesystem's about.
All the cancer support, all the, all the annual physicals and
all that is to take care of afirefighter so they can treat
the customer.
And then in that system we haveleaders that drop the ball and
they don't support thefirefighters by telling the
(19:32):
firefighters, hey, get the hellaway from there, or hey, don't
do that, or hey, on your daysoff you probably think about
what you're doing because you'reshowing up late here 15 minutes
every day and you're smellinglike alcohol.
Let me help you out here.
All of that is being a goodsupervisor and a good leader.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Well, bruno used to talk about having a class just
where we're going to practicesaying no, and he was using this
metaphorically, but he saidthat all officers need to
practice saying no.
No, you're not going to go inthere because that's defensive
fire conditions.
No, you're not going to swingthe axe at the lintel because
it's going to fall down on you.
No, you can't have thatstripper take a picture with you
(20:12):
at the fire truck.
You know whatever that no was,but we're just not very good,
especially new leaders, sayingthat we need to practice it and
make it OK and you don't got tobe mean.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
when you say no, you just say no.
You know, and he had thatyes-no card that we're going to
use in part of our leadershiptraining.
We're going to talk about anactual card that will help
people go through the process oflearning how to become a better
leader by using a yes-no card.
The first time you say no toanybody in your life, um, they
(20:49):
may be surprised like why, whydo you say no?
Well, I think we need toexplain why we're saying in the
hazard zone.
There's no time to explain,it's autocratic.
I say no, get the hell out ofthere.
We're defensive.
What are you doing?
You're creeping up.
Remember we had to deal withcreeping.
But later on, people get usedto you saying no and it's like
(21:10):
oh, he said no, but he's not madat me, he doesn't hate me, he's
not going to write me up, he'sjust saying no because it's the
wrong thing to do, and I thinkwe do got to get better at this.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Well, what was the other one?
Don't expect gratitude foraccepting mediocrity.
Yeah, so that was the otherpiece.
Well, I'm not going to be toughon you.
You know we're just going tooverlook this because it wasn't
anything bad that reallyhappened.
So that just kind of sets thestage for a future bad thing to
happen.
Absolutely, you know, vance,it's almost like the last
(21:42):
podcast we did.
We talked about that strip mallfire and, okay, we're going to
attack this aggressively becausethat's who we are and you know,
that's our identity and therest of it.
You think, well, okay, that'sall good and well, but you know
you can attack the grizzly bear,but once it wakes up it's going
to kill you.
So that was one where the bossshowed up and said, no, get out.
They changed the strategy.
(22:08):
Well, them doing that saved thefive people that were in there.
I mean, they're alive todaybecause they did what they did.
So the problem, I think, withthe fire service is we don't
hear about that.
The one we look at is where theoutcome's just wretched, that
somebody died and you're like,well, okay, I see, and that's
where we were fortunate in ourcareers, is we did this enough
(22:30):
to get a lot of those exampleswhere you're like no, every like
, when people took giant risk atfires.
There was a fire one day.
I was a firefighter, it was anengine three's, first two areas
on C shift and they and theyended up with like they pulled
three, a family of three or four, the mom and two or three kids
(22:53):
out of a like and it's cookingman, and every one they pulled
out they all died, every singleone, half were alive at the
scene, but they all ended updying.
And Engine 3 was I mean, theywere smoking, getting them out.
So you know they did what they.
But it was one of those veryrare fires where you got there
(23:14):
and it's like okay, here we are,we know they're there, this is
what we're going to do, and theydid it.
Once they got them out, thething was defensive, they
knocked it down with that gunsand then you know it's probably
a thousand square foot house andthey knew exactly where they
were, yeah, and it was.
But it was the deal.
And I remember afterwardsbecause you know, that's kind of
(23:36):
a thing where you, okay, allfour of them are dead.
Here's what you know.
This is what I did at worktoday.
But I remember Engine 3's crewwas like the next shift they're
all at work and they weren't.
You couldn't tell and youthought this is and it's because
of the system that we operatedin and everybody.
(23:59):
But when you tore that callapart and really looked at it
because we walked through andsaw the thing and talked to
everybody, we're very familiarwith it and you're like there's,
it's amazing, you were able toget them out, but that just kind
of showed the consequences ofthe hazard zone that we operate
in.
So I think those kinds ofthings.
So that was one set ofexperiences.
(24:21):
And then you fast forward a fewyears to another where it's like
, no, we're in a commercialbuilding and this is what we got
going on and it's offensive,but there's too much, there's
too many defensive things goingon.
We're going to reload thisthing for a minute.
I remember you pulled everybodyout and it was, and they're all
like why do you do that?
You're like, well, OK, they putthe fire out two minutes later
is why he did it.
You guys were not doing smartoffensive work, and so the boss
(24:46):
showed up and interrupted thatby making it more effective.
That's kind of, and so thesystem's predicated on that,
where it's like in the beginning, it's all task level bosses
there, but is that incidentcontinues to evolve.
You get more and more seniorofficers that should OK, we're
five, 10 minutes into this andthis is where we're at now and
(25:08):
they can kind of so again, thesystem reinforces itself
periodically throughout thatincident as just kind of as a
product of just time andevolution.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
You know, bruno said it a lot and he said it, but it
needs some explanation too.
A supervisor, a fire captain'sjob on the fire ground is to
manage the tactical fun.
Remember when he said that, andI always like that because it
is fun on the front end of thefire.
(25:41):
Yeah, but it is that he needs tomanage that in a way that
they're getting their job done.
It's like it's fun to go out inthe front yard and play
football with your friends untilyou take a ball in the cojones.
Now it's no longer fun, andthat's the key is you got to
watch, somebody's got to bewatching what's going on, and
(26:01):
the supervisor needs to do that.
But if they, if you have acaptain and I'll go back to your
question your, your perspectivepiece if you have a fire
captain who is only being theleader in the hazard zone and
not being the leader at the firestation, you got a problem.
Or if you got a captain who'sbeing a asshole leader at the
(26:27):
fire station every day, with hisown plate and his own whatever
they do out there, and then hecan't manage the hazard zone,
you got a problem and both thosethings are taking place out
there.
And or you may have a chiefofficer who thinks that they
promoted to the rank of chief sothey can manage a particular
(26:48):
fire station.
That's not their role.
Everybody's got to play theirrole all the time, from the
moment you show up all the waythrough, and sometimes that role
isn't fun, but that's your jobas a supervisor, as a leader, is
to make sure, especially withthe young people man you've got
to, is to make sure, especiallywith the young people man you
(27:09):
got to.
And I think young people are soresilient that if you, I think
if you just tell them the rightthing to do, tell them why, when
you have the time, thediscretionary time to teach them
why you're doing it, I thinkthey'll hang on to that and
they'll take that throughouttheir career.
But what happens is we don't dothat well enough.
We make a lot of assumptionsabout people's perspective.
(27:33):
Yeah Right, and that's that'swhy I think one of the problems
is well, a lot of us.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
the system is you got to operate within a system that
prevents a lot of that fromhappening.
I remember early in my careerit was the first station I
worked at and there was a BCthat ran out of there and his
partner was gone.
So I was the young guy, theymoved me over, so I'm driving
him around and he's impartingall of his wisdom on me and then
(28:03):
you got to the second line.
Well, and he was talking abouthow good we were as a fire
department.
And he says you know, if wehave it to like a first alarm,
four engines and two ladders, hesays we will put the fire out.
Like 90 percent of the time itjust goes.
He says we get enough peoplethere and we do the right set of
things.
We get enough people there andwe do the right set of things.
(28:25):
And he says but it's myexperience that when it goes
beyond that first alarm, he saysso like you get a second or
third alarm.
He says those never go well.
You're like well, why don'tthey?
He says just, for some reason,the fire is so big, there's a
set of things happening and itmakes us not as effective and we
(28:47):
start doing things that justdon't make a lot of sense.
Well, like 20 years later,thinking back on what he was
telling me that day, it's likeyeah, he's talking that there's
no tactical supervision on thePhoenix Fire Department because
we're so good on the task levelof getting there very quickly
and eliminating the hazards thatwhen that doesn't happen, we
(29:08):
don't have a routine forupgrading the attack positions
anymore.
We just put more task levelcompanies in it and it has.
It doesn't have a positiveeffect.
In fact, more often than not ithas a negative effect.
And it's because there's notactical supervisions.
And people would say, well,yeah, there is the captain of
engine 22 was the sector boss,and you're like, okay, where was
(29:31):
the sector boss?
Well, they're inside attackingthe fire.
So there's no entry controlgoing on.
Well, we know the stage.
And then we're outside and thenlater on is what we do on deck?
And you're like there's notactical supervision there.
So I have multiple task levelcrews with no tactical boss.
Well, you don't need onebecause they're so smart and
(29:54):
you're like it has nothing to dowith that.
Those are two different thingstask level effectiveness and
then tactical supervision.
Once you get the first two orthree task level units and
they're not solving it, you needtactical supervision to reload
the thing, to read, align what'sgoing on within that division.
(30:16):
So and we see that over andover Well, we live the first two
thirds of our career with notactical supervision and then
something happened.
We had a big recovery processand then, over a period of a
year, we looked at it.
I mean, we're really smartpeople, vance.
It took a year to figure outthis simple thing.
(30:36):
That's slapping you in the facefor the last 20.
Oh, tactical supervision.
He talked about strategic,tactical and task.
But there's only a strategiclevel and a task level.
Yeah, we were good at those two.
And then we saw the differencein the command post.
So once you started using the2nd BC to take over the division
(30:57):
the active division, it's likein the command post it got like
almost slow to the point ofbored, like strategic boredom
was setting in and Younger BCshad a problem with that.
They said this isn't exciting,like it used to be.
They said no, it's because yourpartner's running the division.
(31:17):
You don't have to run thedivision and the whole incident
now.
And you can't really run thedivision at this point because
it's overloaded with task-levelresources and there's no one
there to tactically take controlof them.
So when something goes wrong,it explodes and you can't manage
it anymore.
Goes wrong, it explodes and youcan't manage it anymore.
(31:41):
So this is kind of this is whatyou depend on the senior
leaders to do to fix thesethings.
So what happens in these otherfire departments where, like,
the 22 year old firefighter goesin and talks the 50 year fire
chief into doing a bunch ofstupid AMBO staffing model
tactics?
Well, if we just get there andwe're men about it, it'll all be
better.
(32:01):
And you think, no, you've gotsomebody who's inexperienced,
who's emotionally drivingeverything that's going on in
their life based on their ownego, their own frail human ego,
and now we're going to run thefire department on that.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No, Well, Nick, what you said is absolutely true.
So the way you describe thathazard zone with the tactical
level, the task level, thetactical and the strategic,
that's the way organizationsshould work also.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Right level the tactical and the strategic.
That's the way organizationsshould work also.
Yeah, right, so as a fire chiefyou I just remember the
departments I was in my goalthat one of my primary goals
firefighter safety, customerservice, but what I want to do
as a goal was to get the thewhole department, operating as
one department so that everyshift wasn't.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
That's a full-time job it was yeah, that's a great
goal.
I mean, every fire chief shouldhave that goal.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
But only if it's like the right operation, because
there's like two or threeoperations going on, you pick,
okay what.
Some of this and some of this?
Yeah, right here.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
This is what this looks like when I was in in
oceanside and I had three shiftsand one battalion chief.
That was difficult.
It's like you three battalionchiefs need to operate the same
way.
Here's a strategic message.
You take it out on the tacticallevel and have your fire
captains process that on a tasklevel.
Now you try that same thing inHouston where you have 22
(33:28):
districts, which are the same asbattalions, and four shifts.
That's difficult, but as a firechief you can't say it.
You can't shifts.
That that's difficult, but as afire chief you can't say it.
You can't think that it'simpossible, you just got to
think it's difficult.
I remember bruno used to saysomething like it's not your
fault, but it's your problem.
So when you're a fire chief,things that happen are your
problem, not your fault, alwaysright, sometimes they are your
(33:50):
fault, but um I I think that'sthe key to how this.
You're talking aboutperspective and how you manage
that perspective is there has tobe an overall cultural
perspective and then you have tohave the processes in place.
I think the accountabilitymodel works well.
I think when you use theorganizational flowchart as the
(34:12):
organizational communicationflow chart, it works very well.
But everybody has to becommunicating up and down the
system.
People have to be listening.
But the whole thing can breakdown at any level.
I've seen it break down withfire chiefs that just show up in
their muscle shirts and thinktheir brains are gone.
Those people are gone andeverybody knows it.
(34:35):
Their brains are gone.
Those people are gone andeverybody knows it.
It could break down at thecommand team level where you may
have one command member whosees a weak fire chief and tries
to go off on their own and kindof create their own culture
within the organization.
I've seen it the biggest place.
I've seen it work.
The worst is at the tacticallevel, where you got battalion
(34:56):
chiefs or district chiefs andthey're managing their own
district, their own battalion.
They said, no, I don't give ashit what they say downtown,
we're going to do it this wayover here.
That's when it that's whenyou're going to have problems.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Yeah, they're different fire departments
different fire department.
But it needs to be well.
That's because the fire chiefsletting it happen.
They may not even know it'shappening or even care that it's
happening.
Usually they don't.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Well, the thing about it is, you've got to care and
then you've got to look for it,right?
Because?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
that's what fire chiefs do.
That is your job.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, as one of my goals of that being everybody on
the same page, then you think,okay, if that's my goal, I need
to go out and see if that hastaken place, and not all fire
chiefs do that.
It's like what is actuallyhappening at my tactical level?
What's happening with mycommand team, what's happening
(35:45):
at the tactical level?
And then let's visit some firestations.
And, by the way, when a firechief visits a fire station,
they're going to act completelydifferent.
It would be nice iffirefighters would just you know
, but they're so respectfulthey're not going to tell you
exactly what's going on.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
So you Well, that's the same if any chief visits.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
It doesn't matter if the fire chief.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
it's just more amplified because they're the
five bugle, but when their BCcomes there they're acting
different.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah.
So they got to pay attention towhat's going on and really help
each other out.
But the message needs to be thesame message.
I mean they do it in themilitary, right?
So every once in a while youget a Charlie company who will
get out in front of everybodyand that becomes a problem,
because then everybody has to gosave them.
That's what happens on the fireground.
(36:30):
You get a company that gets outof whack freelancers, moves
into a wrong area, doesn'tcommunicate where they're at the
IC, doesn't know the positionand function of that company.
Same thing happensorganizationally is you may not
know what's happening out there,but you got to try to pay
attention.
That's your primary job.
Not to pay attention to thefreaking city council and the
(36:54):
mayor.
They're going to be okay.
Pay attention to the firedepartment and the people that
you're responsible for.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
All right, that wraps up part one of Perspective with
myself, John Vance, NickBrunicini and Terry Garrison.
We will be back next week withpart two of this special podcast
, talking about leadership andthe perspective that we can lend
to firefighters within ourorganization.
Join us next time for the BShifter podcast.
Hello and welcome to the B Shifter podcast.
Just getting on here real quickto let you know this is a
two-part podcast on perspective.
We split it up into two because, quite frankly, we had a very
good, productive, longconversation and we wanted to
make sure that it was digestibleto everyone who likes to
(00:20):
consume the B Shifter podcast.
So here is part one of ustalking about perspective.
Welcome to the B Shifterpodcast.
(00:40):
Today you have John Vance,terry Garrison, nick Brunicini
in the studio here at the Alan VBrunicini Command Training
Center in Phoenix, arizona.
How are you, gentlemen, doingtoday?
Very good, very good.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
I'm doing as good as he is.
Yeah, as well as he is.
I'm going to use properlanguage.
That's good to hear I'm doingwell also Very well.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Very well he is.
I'm going to use properlanguage.
That's good to hear I'm doingwell, also Very well, very well,
thank you, not to get intopolitics.
Well, we won't get intopolitics.
I was watching a hearing theother day, and I couldn't
imagine it was a hearing oneducation, and the English that
the Congress people and senatorswere using was not at all
proper.
So you do much better than theydo.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Oh you know.
So one day when my grandsoncame home and for some reason he
was convinced about when he wasabout eight, that the word
stupid was a bad word Like you,don't call people stupid, that's
like a bad, that's as bad assaying a cuss word.
So he came home and he said akid said a bad word in school
(01:51):
today.
And I said what did he say?
He said he said the E word.
I said the E word.
What's the E word?
He goes ignorant.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
I said, let's talk buddy.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So, yeah, ignor buddy .
Speaker 2 (02:06):
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Ignorant the E word.
I used to convince my sisterthat there were curse words that
didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'd make them up, oh nice.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
I at one time had her convinced that if she said Guy
Lombardo, that was equivalent tothe F word.
So, and then I'd get her to sayit, Then I'd yell like mom, she
said it again.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
How's her counseling?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
going now.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, All right Today .
Hey, the topic that we want totalk about and I think there's
going to be an article coming upin the B Shifter Buckslip and
on the B Shifter website aboutthis is perspective, and the
Webster's Dictionary definesperspective.
(02:49):
I'm sounding like Dr Phil there, right?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
That's how he starts out every episode Perspective.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Now you're getting into politics, Vance yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
People using their language wrong.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It's more Adam Ray as Dr Phil.
That's really what my imitationis.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Not like prospective.
Like the Hells Angels, you gota prospect.
No, no Perspective Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Pers and the Webster's Dictionary definition
is a particular attitude towardor a way of regarding something
and a point of view.
And the reason I brought thisup for us to talk about and I'm
interested in your take on thisis we've been looking at these
NIOSH reports here that came outin the last month or so and
(03:36):
there's been seven or eight thathave dropped, and I noticed 75%
of the firefighters involved inthe line of duty deaths were
about 25 to 30 years old, and sothese are younger people to the
job that and you can readbetween the lines on the reports
leadership failed at some point, whether it was a lack of
(03:56):
division, boss.
There was one in particularwhere chief officers were given
assignments and they refusedthose assignments.
The chiefs themselves werefreelancing, and then there were
people in defensive conditionsbut they were in offensive
positions with master streams inthe building and then, you know
(04:18):
, inevitably a collapse.
So I'm thinking about you knowwhat messages aren't these guys
getting?
And the other thing that I wroteabout in the article and I just
want to get your take on thisis there are a lot of people in
leadership positions that wantto be cool, and the way that
(04:38):
they're relating to the youngerfirefighters is really meeting
them on their level, instead ofbringing them up with their
perspective and passing on a lotof very hard-learned lessons.
You know same thing.
Nick and I were at the airport,at FDIC, and we were surrounded
by a bunch of guys that haddefund, nfpa and these shirts on
(05:01):
, and all those standards,whether it's an OSHA standard or
an FPA standard that has to dowith safety was written with the
blood of somebody at some point.
I mean, there's reasons forthat Perspective.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Let's talk about us passing our perspective down
Before we do, would you givethat statistic again, because
you said it kind of quick, but Iwant to hear what's the
percentage of the young folks?
What would you?
What'd you say?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
well, I about half of these reports at least had had,
uh, out of the seven or eighthad 25 to 35 year old
firefighters.
Okay, and in this particulartime.
So that's, that's just a sampleof what I saw.
No, that's important right?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, because perspective is contagious, right
?
I mean, you think about that,how the influence, and I think
that's the whole key toleadership.
Right, if you talk aboutleadership, you talk about the
ability to influence people tomove in a certain direction.
By influence I mean, hey, youwant people to want to move in
(06:03):
that direction.
That's influence.
That's not forcing somebody tomove, although sometimes leaders
have to force somebody into acertain direction but I think we
have a responsibility toinfluence our young firefighters
.
Chief officers have aresponsibility to influence
those people that work for them,and it kind of everybody works
(06:24):
for somebody and I think that'sthe key.
So for me, when you saidperspective and it's in the way
you described that it makes alot of sense that we need to
always do a better job with that.
And I see organizations rightnow that I used to work for,
(06:46):
where being the leader meansbeing a cool guy, to go along,
to get along and I've beenaccused of that personally.
Is that?
Oh yeah, you're just a good?
No, I, I'm nice to people, likeChief Bernasini was nice to
people, to people but, yeah, Ifeel like I had certain
(07:08):
standards regarding firefightersafety and customer service that
if you didn't meet thosestandards, then I would hold you
accountable and I would stillnice at the end of the day, but
you're going to do it this wayand there was a clear
understanding.
So you know, we talked about, Ithink, not long ago, about how
we set the culture, and I thinkthis is all once again about
culture and how a fire chief andhow the leaders have a
(07:31):
responsibility to set theculture.
And then how do you do that?
Because you create the culturefor your organization, right,
nick?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, well, perspective changes throughout
your life.
So I read something the otherday.
They said the wise of eachgeneration learn the same truths
.
Well, as you learn and absorbmore knowledge, it changes your
perspective.
So there were like the leadersin our organization.
(08:04):
So there were like the leadersin our organization.
One of them said the older Iget in this position, the less
regard I have for property,talking about structural
firefighting.
So they kind of and I thinktheir perspective is all their
experience combined and kind ofthe way they view things.
(08:26):
So your perspective changes asyou gain more and more
experience.
It should.
And we all kind of start youngand enthusiastic and thinking
that, ok, this is what thislooks like and for me to be
accepted by the group, this isthe way I have to manage myself.
And then I think over a periodof time you learn like, okay,
(08:49):
that I understand the groupthink, but it's not always right
and this is the way to correctthat and move on.
And in these podcasts you keeptalking a lot about the process
and systems.
Well, that is the way I think.
The older you get, the moreexperience you get, the more you
rely on those systems, becausethat's the way you connect the
(09:10):
team of people.
So in firefighting is a teamactivity, so you have to manage
it as such.
But you know, with those threelevels and everything else that
we've talked about in blue card,so those three levels and
everything else that we'vetalked about in blue card so,
but a lot of this, like when wecame up, there was a certain
perspective, because ourdepartment was always changing,
(09:33):
was always moving forward insome way or another.
There was there wasn't a wholelot of static stuff that people
hung on to.
Now, you know, being a goodfirefighter looked the same,
like on the task level, and youwould look at some of those
folks that you would say, okay,that person's a good firefighter
.
And then you like to sit downand actually define it though,
(09:53):
say, okay, well, what's thatmean?
Even Well, they're very fast,they make quick decisions, they
always put the line in the rightplace, they put the fire out,
kind of a thing.
So you know they're aggressive.
All those like little buzzwordsthat we love to this is first,
one second counts, kind of stuff.
Well, I think the more you goon and the more you watch it and
(10:14):
do it and learn it, you justbecome more of a, you go from an
apprentice to more of an expertview of the thing, especially
when you look on those threelike the task, tactical and
strategic levels of what goesinto a fire attack.
So I think operating in a systemwhere you do after action
(10:38):
reviews in the name of improvingfuture operations, is that that
puts the right motion in placeto keep everybody moving forward
.
Because I think what happens iswhen you stop doing that and
you just, it becomes static.
Then the noise echoes and itgets too loud.
The task level, this is therah-rah.
(11:00):
You think no, that is uh-uh.
You're not.
90% enthusiasm and 10% labor iskind of what we're looking for
in this thing.
You have to temper it becauseof where we're executing all
that and places it'll kill you.
So to kind of get back to yourpoint is like you're talking
about people wearing I don'tbelieve in regulating us in any
(11:23):
way or staging, because we haveto get there and take immediate
split second action to keep allthis you know the world from
burning down.
And when you really look at ityou think, ok, yeah, there is a
place for that and that's ourpre response kind of readiness.
But once we get to the scene,you've got to base your actions
(11:48):
on what's actually happening,and I guess the most recent
example I'll use so we use thissystem to do our work, keep it
effective, keep everybody safe.
Well, if you've got a buildingthat's, let's say, in the
community and it's had a couplefires in it, and the owners of
the building say we don't wantthis building anymore, they
(12:11):
fence it and they're going tothe city to get a demolition
permit to remove it fromexistence, they're going to haul
it to the dump and then they'regoing to build a new building
there.
So this building sits there fora period of time and now
somebody somehow catches on fireat night.
Fire department responds andthen everybody acts like it's an
(12:35):
open, functioning daycarecenter that we have to go in and
get all clears on immediatelybecause there's children dying
in there.
No, this is a vacant, abandonedbuilding that's fenced.
That when we had to breakthrough the fence and then the
building's still secured.
So if we go in, the only peoplethat are going to be in there
(12:59):
are firefighters and you have adefensive fire in it.
So let's say the IC calls outand says it's defensive, but
nobody's managing the thing andat the end of the incident you
end up with.
You talked about an IOSH report.
So somebody takes actionoffensive action in a defensive
fire and it costs them theirlife.
(13:20):
Well, you need a pretty maturesystem.
Well, first of all, to keepthat from happening, because
that's really where the rubbermeets the road in the thing.
But first of all to keep thatfrom happening, because that's
really where the rubber meetsthe road in the thing.
But if it does happen, you haveto have a mature system to
somehow recover from that, tokeep that from happening in the
future over and over again,because of these emotional cries
(13:42):
to shape the department in acertain way and you think this
really isn't doing us any good.
So I mean you could just usingthat scenario.
There's like criminal liabilityat the root of that for the
leadership of the firedepartment and in fact this has
happened in cities where thecity, after the report came out,
(14:03):
the city met with the firedepartment and said you can't do
this anymore.
If you take this action, thecity is not going to pay for it,
so you're on your own at thispoint.
It happened in Baltimore a fewyears ago, where it was a
defensive fire.
They took action anyway and thecity finds out later on, they
say well, what are you doing?
(14:24):
Well, you know we have to.
So now you have these peoplerepresenting the fire department
that don't have.
They're representing themselves.
They don't represent themembers of the fire department.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
We do not want politicians regulating how we
fight fires, so we got to besmarter and do it the correct
way.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah, it's pretty tough when the mayor has to run
the fire department.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
You, don't want that.
You know what I found in theway you started and I agree with
everything you say, obviouslybecause we grew up in the same
system.
But that whole deal where doingyour job as a leader and
holding people accountable isnot synonymous with being nice.
And what Bruno did really wellis we had a system, a process,
(15:06):
and you can use theaccountability process.
You could use a performancemanagement process, whatever,
and that held people accountable.
Because it just sayaccountability, because it's
simpler Set expectations, trainpeople to do the job with their
expectation, monitor theirperformance as a supervisor and
then hold them accountablethrough some sort of after
(15:28):
action and then learn from thatand then put that back in the
system and start again.
He had that process, but thenhe layered on top of it.
Be nice as you're doing that,because when you're nice, people
will listen to you and theywill respond better than when
you're an asshole.
It's just that simple.
Have you ever responded as anasshole.
(15:52):
Have you ever when one asshole?
Speaker 1 (15:53):
meets another asshole , you you've got a room full of
assholes.
It's like an arms race ofa-holes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
And then we all wonder where all the shit come
from you, think well, yeah, so Ithink when people start talking
about that's, I think that'swhat they confuse too, and
they're also, if you just layeron top of that, when you get
into the IDLH and the hazardzone you need and Bruno used
charts and graphs and gauges sowell and I could just picture a
(16:20):
graph where you got the hazardzone and it lays out like this
and it's like one.
Like it is is right, here, it'sthe most dangerous place you
could do well.
You need to be a leader, morethere than any place else in the
system, right?
So we go back to our firestation, say I'm a, I'm a fire
captain and a supervisor, and Igo back to the fire station.
(16:43):
I don't need my own plate andchair at the table right, I
don't need that, but when I'm,and you know what, we'll talk
about the tv and it's alldemocratic at the fire station.
We'll talk about what we wantto eat, all that kind of shit.
We'll even decide hey, you guys, what do you want to do?
Today?
It's a saturday.
We got to clean the truck, butwhat else we?
(17:04):
That's all good stuff, but whenyou get on the fire ground, it
needs, needs to be autocratic,and I think what happens is
sometimes our young leadersconfuse that and they take that
let's get along, go along to getalong attitude and they process
that on a fire ground becausethere's nothing.
A young firefighter wants to domore with an axe than swing it.
(17:27):
And we saw that many years agowhen we had that fire and guys
got hurt because we had a youngfirefighter that had an axe.
Defensive fire walked up tothis giant warehouse that's on
fire and decided I'm just goingto remove the wooden lintel
around this door, took his axe,hit it and the entire brick wall
(17:49):
fell down on him and a couplepeople.
But that was an action that hefelt like he should do because
he's a young person and he wantsto do something.
Yeah.
I showed it, I showed it, but hehad a supervisor there and that
supervisor had anothersupervisor there and they all
allowed that to happen.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Well, even more sadder was, there was a safety
officer standing there watchingit.
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was.
Yeah, the system.
Everybody was like well, it'snot my job, it's like well,
whose is it then?
I mean, there's three peoplehere that should have stopped
this and nobody did.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah.
So I think what's happening isall this gets wound up.
Like the guy in Texas used tosay, we get wound up on a stump
on this one.
Because I think they'reconfusing with the fact that we
talk in blue card a lot andwe're going to talk about this
in leadership a lot, that youshould be nice to your employees
.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah, but those are two different things.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Let me so most, and nice means kind, but the most
unkind thing you can do, brunowould say, is what Is accept
poor performance Is to let a guyget themselves, guy or girl get
hurt on the fire ground or getscrewed up in the system, or
allow them that the whole systemis there to support the worker
(19:10):
so the worker can support or canserve the customer.
And that's what that wholesystem's about.
All the cancer support, all the, all the annual physicals and
all that is to take care of afirefighter so they can treat
the customer.
And then in that system we haveleaders that drop the ball and
they don't support thefirefighters by telling the
(19:32):
firefighters, hey, get the hellaway from there, or hey, don't
do that, or hey, on your daysoff you probably think about
what you're doing because you'reshowing up late here 15 minutes
every day and you're smellinglike alcohol.
Let me help you out here.
All of that is being a goodsupervisor and a good leader.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Well, bruno used to talk about having a class just
where we're going to practicesaying no, and he was using this
metaphorically, but he saidthat all officers need to
practice saying no.
No, you're not going to go inthere because that's defensive
fire conditions.
No, you're not going to swingthe axe at the lintel because
it's going to fall down on you.
No, you can't have thatstripper take a picture with you
(20:12):
at the fire truck.
You know whatever that no was,but we're just not very good,
especially new leaders, sayingthat we need to practice it and
make it OK and you don't got tobe mean.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
when you say no, you just say no.
You know, and he had thatyes-no card that we're going to
use in part of our leadershiptraining.
We're going to talk about anactual card that will help
people go through the process oflearning how to become a better
leader by using a yes-no card.
The first time you say no toanybody in your life, um, they
(20:49):
may be surprised like why, whydo you say no?
Well, I think we need toexplain why we're saying in the
hazard zone.
There's no time to explain,it's autocratic.
I say no, get the hell out ofthere.
We're defensive.
What are you doing?
You're creeping up.
Remember we had to deal withcreeping.
But later on, people get usedto you saying no and it's like
(21:10):
oh, he said no, but he's not madat me, he doesn't hate me, he's
not going to write me up, he'sjust saying no because it's the
wrong thing to do, and I thinkwe do got to get better at this.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Well, what was the other one?
Don't expect gratitude foraccepting mediocrity.
Yeah, so that was the otherpiece.
Well, I'm not going to be toughon you.
You know we're just going tooverlook this because it wasn't
anything bad that reallyhappened.
So that just kind of sets thestage for a future bad thing to
happen.
Absolutely, you know, vance,it's almost like the last
(21:42):
podcast we did.
We talked about that strip mallfire and, okay, we're going to
attack this aggressively becausethat's who we are and you know,
that's our identity and therest of it.
You think, well, okay, that'sall good and well, but you know
you can attack the grizzly bear,but once it wakes up it's going
to kill you.
So that was one where the bossshowed up and said, no, get out.
They changed the strategy.
(22:08):
Well, them doing that saved thefive people that were in there.
I mean, they're alive todaybecause they did what they did.
So the problem, I think, withthe fire service is we don't
hear about that.
The one we look at is where theoutcome's just wretched, that
somebody died and you're like,well, okay, I see, and that's
where we were fortunate in ourcareers, is we did this enough
(22:30):
to get a lot of those exampleswhere you're like no, every like
, when people took giant risk atfires.
There was a fire one day.
I was a firefighter, it was anengine three's, first two areas
on C shift and they and theyended up with like they pulled
three, a family of three or four, the mom and two or three kids
(22:53):
out of a like and it's cookingman, and every one they pulled
out they all died, every singleone, half were alive at the
scene, but they all ended updying.
And Engine 3 was I mean, theywere smoking, getting them out.
So you know they did what they.
But it was one of those veryrare fires where you got there
(23:14):
and it's like okay, here we are,we know they're there, this is
what we're going to do, and theydid it.
Once they got them out, thething was defensive, they
knocked it down with that gunsand then you know it's probably
a thousand square foot house andthey knew exactly where they
were, yeah, and it was.
But it was the deal.
And I remember afterwardsbecause you know, that's kind of
(23:36):
a thing where you, okay, allfour of them are dead.
Here's what you know.
This is what I did at worktoday.
But I remember Engine 3's crewwas like the next shift they're
all at work and they weren't.
You couldn't tell and youthought this is and it's because
of the system that we operatedin and everybody.
(23:59):
But when you tore that callapart and really looked at it
because we walked through andsaw the thing and talked to
everybody, we're very familiarwith it and you're like there's,
it's amazing, you were able toget them out, but that just kind
of showed the consequences ofthe hazard zone that we operate
in.
So I think those kinds ofthings.
So that was one set ofexperiences.
(24:21):
And then you fast forward a fewyears to another where it's like
, no, we're in a commercialbuilding and this is what we got
going on and it's offensive,but there's too much, there's
too many defensive things goingon.
We're going to reload thisthing for a minute.
I remember you pulled everybodyout and it was, and they're all
like why do you do that?
You're like, well, OK, they putthe fire out two minutes later
is why he did it.
You guys were not doing smartoffensive work, and so the boss
(24:46):
showed up and interrupted thatby making it more effective.
That's kind of, and so thesystem's predicated on that,
where it's like in the beginning, it's all task level bosses
there, but is that incidentcontinues to evolve.
You get more and more seniorofficers that should OK, we're
five, 10 minutes into this andthis is where we're at now and
(25:08):
they can kind of so again, thesystem reinforces itself
periodically throughout thatincident as just kind of as a
product of just time andevolution.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
You know, bruno said it a lot and he said it, but it
needs some explanation too.
A supervisor, a fire captain'sjob on the fire ground is to
manage the tactical fun.
Remember when he said that, andI always like that because it
is fun on the front end of thefire.
(25:41):
Yeah, but it is that he needs tomanage that in a way that
they're getting their job done.
It's like it's fun to go out inthe front yard and play
football with your friends untilyou take a ball in the cojones.
Now it's no longer fun, andthat's the key is you got to
watch, somebody's got to bewatching what's going on, and
(26:01):
the supervisor needs to do that.
But if they, if you have acaptain and I'll go back to your
question your, your perspectivepiece if you have a fire
captain who is only being theleader in the hazard zone and
not being the leader at the firestation, you got a problem.
Or if you got a captain who'sbeing a asshole leader at the
(26:27):
fire station every day, with hisown plate and his own whatever
they do out there, and then hecan't manage the hazard zone,
you got a problem and both thosethings are taking place out
there.
And or you may have a chiefofficer who thinks that they
promoted to the rank of chief sothey can manage a particular
(26:48):
fire station.
That's not their role.
Everybody's got to play theirrole all the time, from the
moment you show up all the waythrough, and sometimes that role
isn't fun, but that's your jobas a supervisor, as a leader, is
to make sure, especially withthe young people man you've got
to, is to make sure, especiallywith the young people man you
(27:09):
got to.
And I think young people are soresilient that if you, I think
if you just tell them the rightthing to do, tell them why, when
you have the time, thediscretionary time to teach them
why you're doing it, I thinkthey'll hang on to that and
they'll take that throughouttheir career.
But what happens is we don't dothat well enough.
We make a lot of assumptionsabout people's perspective.
(27:33):
Yeah Right, and that's that'swhy I think one of the problems
is well, a lot of us.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
the system is you got to operate within a system that
prevents a lot of that fromhappening.
I remember early in my careerit was the first station I
worked at and there was a BCthat ran out of there and his
partner was gone.
So I was the young guy, theymoved me over, so I'm driving
him around and he's impartingall of his wisdom on me and then
(28:03):
you got to the second line.
Well, and he was talking abouthow good we were as a fire
department.
And he says you know, if wehave it to like a first alarm,
four engines and two ladders, hesays we will put the fire out.
Like 90 percent of the time itjust goes.
He says we get enough peoplethere and we do the right set of
things.
We get enough people there andwe do the right set of things.
(28:25):
And he says but it's myexperience that when it goes
beyond that first alarm, he saysso like you get a second or
third alarm.
He says those never go well.
You're like well, why don'tthey?
He says just, for some reason,the fire is so big, there's a
set of things happening and itmakes us not as effective and we
(28:47):
start doing things that justdon't make a lot of sense.
Well, like 20 years later,thinking back on what he was
telling me that day, it's likeyeah, he's talking that there's
no tactical supervision on thePhoenix Fire Department because
we're so good on the task levelof getting there very quickly
and eliminating the hazards thatwhen that doesn't happen, we
(29:08):
don't have a routine forupgrading the attack positions
anymore.
We just put more task levelcompanies in it and it has.
It doesn't have a positiveeffect.
In fact, more often than not ithas a negative effect.
And it's because there's notactical supervisions.
And people would say, well,yeah, there is the captain of
engine 22 was the sector boss,and you're like, okay, where was
(29:31):
the sector boss?
Well, they're inside attackingthe fire.
So there's no entry controlgoing on.
Well, we know the stage.
And then we're outside and thenlater on is what we do on deck?
And you're like there's notactical supervision there.
So I have multiple task levelcrews with no tactical boss.
Well, you don't need onebecause they're so smart and
(29:54):
you're like it has nothing to dowith that.
Those are two different thingstask level effectiveness and
then tactical supervision.
Once you get the first two orthree task level units and
they're not solving it, you needtactical supervision to reload
the thing, to read, align what'sgoing on within that division.
(30:16):
So and we see that over andover Well, we live the first two
thirds of our career with notactical supervision and then
something happened.
We had a big recovery processand then, over a period of a
year, we looked at it.
I mean, we're really smartpeople, vance.
It took a year to figure outthis simple thing.
(30:36):
That's slapping you in the facefor the last 20.
Oh, tactical supervision.
He talked about strategic,tactical and task.
But there's only a strategiclevel and a task level.
Yeah, we were good at those two.
And then we saw the differencein the command post.
So once you started using the2nd BC to take over the division
(30:57):
the active division, it's likein the command post it got like
almost slow to the point ofbored, like strategic boredom
was setting in and Younger BCshad a problem with that.
They said this isn't exciting,like it used to be.
They said no, it's because yourpartner's running the division.
(31:17):
You don't have to run thedivision and the whole incident
now.
And you can't really run thedivision at this point because
it's overloaded with task-levelresources and there's no one
there to tactically take controlof them.
So when something goes wrong,it explodes and you can't manage
it anymore.
Goes wrong, it explodes and youcan't manage it anymore.
(31:41):
So this is kind of this is whatyou depend on the senior
leaders to do to fix thesethings.
So what happens in these otherfire departments where, like,
the 22 year old firefighter goesin and talks the 50 year fire
chief into doing a bunch ofstupid AMBO staffing model
tactics?
Well, if we just get there andwe're men about it, it'll all be
better.
(32:01):
And you think, no, you've gotsomebody who's inexperienced,
who's emotionally drivingeverything that's going on in
their life based on their ownego, their own frail human ego,
and now we're going to run thefire department on that.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No, Well, Nick, what you said is absolutely true.
So the way you describe thathazard zone with the tactical
level, the task level, thetactical and the strategic,
that's the way organizationsshould work also.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Right level the tactical and the strategic.
That's the way organizationsshould work also.
Yeah, right, so as a fire chiefyou I just remember the
departments I was in my goalthat one of my primary goals
firefighter safety, customerservice, but what I want to do
as a goal was to get the thewhole department, operating as
one department so that everyshift wasn't.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
That's a full-time job it was yeah, that's a great
goal.
I mean, every fire chief shouldhave that goal.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
But only if it's like the right operation, because
there's like two or threeoperations going on, you pick,
okay what.
Some of this and some of this?
Yeah, right here.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
This is what this looks like when I was in in
oceanside and I had three shiftsand one battalion chief.
That was difficult.
It's like you three battalionchiefs need to operate the same
way.
Here's a strategic message.
You take it out on the tacticallevel and have your fire
captains process that on a tasklevel.
Now you try that same thing inHouston where you have 22
(33:28):
districts, which are the same asbattalions, and four shifts.
That's difficult, but as a firechief you can't say it.
You can't shifts.
That that's difficult, but as afire chief you can't say it.
You can't think that it'simpossible, you just got to
think it's difficult.
I remember bruno used to saysomething like it's not your
fault, but it's your problem.
So when you're a fire chief,things that happen are your
problem, not your fault, alwaysright, sometimes they are your
(33:50):
fault, but um I I think that'sthe key to how this.
You're talking aboutperspective and how you manage
that perspective is there has tobe an overall cultural
perspective and then you have tohave the processes in place.
I think the accountabilitymodel works well.
I think when you use theorganizational flowchart as the
(34:12):
organizational communicationflow chart, it works very well.
But everybody has to becommunicating up and down the
system.
People have to be listening.
But the whole thing can breakdown at any level.
I've seen it break down withfire chiefs that just show up in
their muscle shirts and thinktheir brains are gone.
Those people are gone andeverybody knows it.
(34:35):
Their brains are gone.
Those people are gone andeverybody knows it.
It could break down at thecommand team level where you may
have one command member whosees a weak fire chief and tries
to go off on their own and kindof create their own culture
within the organization.
I've seen it the biggest place.
I've seen it work.
The worst is at the tacticallevel, where you got battalion
(34:56):
chiefs or district chiefs andthey're managing their own
district, their own battalion.
They said, no, I don't give ashit what they say downtown,
we're going to do it this wayover here.
That's when it that's whenyou're going to have problems.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Yeah, they're different fire departments
different fire department.
But it needs to be well.
That's because the fire chiefsletting it happen.
They may not even know it'shappening or even care that it's
happening.
Usually they don't.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Well, the thing about it is, you've got to care and
then you've got to look for it,right?
Because?
Speaker 3 (35:23):
that's what fire chiefs do.
That is your job.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Well, as one of my goals of that being everybody on
the same page, then you think,okay, if that's my goal, I need
to go out and see if that hastaken place, and not all fire
chiefs do that.
It's like what is actuallyhappening at my tactical level?
What's happening with mycommand team, what's happening
(35:45):
at the tactical level?
And then let's visit some firestations.
And, by the way, when a firechief visits a fire station,
they're going to act completelydifferent.
It would be nice iffirefighters would just you know
, but they're so respectfulthey're not going to tell you
exactly what's going on.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
So you Well, that's the same if any chief visits.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
It doesn't matter if the fire chief.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
it's just more amplified because they're the
five bugle, but when their BCcomes there they're acting
different.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah.
So they got to pay attention towhat's going on and really help
each other out.
But the message needs to be thesame message.
I mean they do it in themilitary, right?
So every once in a while youget a Charlie company who will
get out in front of everybodyand that becomes a problem,
because then everybody has to gosave them.
That's what happens on the fireground.
(36:30):
You get a company that gets outof whack freelancers, moves
into a wrong area, doesn'tcommunicate where they're at the
IC, doesn't know the positionand function of that company.
Same thing happensorganizationally is you may not
know what's happening out there,but you got to try to pay
attention.
That's your primary job.
Not to pay attention to thefreaking city council and the
(36:54):
mayor.
They're going to be okay.
Pay attention to the firedepartment and the people that
you're responsible for.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
All right, that wraps up part one of Perspective with
myself, John Vance, NickBrunicini and Terry Garrison.
We will be back next week withpart two of this special podcast
, talking about leadership andthe perspective that we can lend
to firefighters within ourorganization.
Join us next time for the BShifter podcast.
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