Who Is Training Your Firefighters?

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This episode features Josh Blum, Chris Stewart and John Vance.

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We challenge the way departments choose, vet, and apply training, separating hype from systems that improve outcomes. We show how to align classes with staffing, model procedures, and building realities, and how to turn outside lessons into standard practice without chaos.

• lifelong learning mindset and clear standards
• distinction between training skills and education why
• vetting instructors and course foundations before purchase
• handling self-funded training and knowledge reentry
• engaging disengaged chiefs through lead-up conversations
• top-down accountability for real participation in drills
• limits of copying big brother departments and tactics
• big box strategy focused on systems and risk management
• practical RIT priorities: prevention, air, orientation, extrication
• evidence-based command training and instructor credibility

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:43):
Welcome to the V Shifter Podcast.
John Vance, Chris Stewart, andJosh Loom here with us today.
Welcome, gentlemen.
Good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
It's nice to be here.

SPEAKER_01 (00:57):
Nice to be seen.

SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
It's nice to be able to be on here.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
Yeah, it is.
We have a good topic for youtoday.
We will be talking about who istraining your firefighters.
So stick around for that andfind out what the guys have to
say.
And of course, we always welcomeyour comments.
Look at our show notes and sendus emails.
The other thing we're going toask you to do here at the top is

(01:21):
like and subscribe if you enjoyour podcast.
That helps us out quite a bitwhen you do that.
So please do.
How are you doing today inCincinnati there, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 (01:31):
I'm doing really good.

unknown (01:32):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
Busy day catching up on my computer.
Computer work stuff.
And talked to a bunch ofagencies today.
And I was talking to Jen in theoffice.
They lots of organizationsgetting prices, wanting to come
online, trying to figure it out.
What's the blue card thingreally mean?
So yeah, that's all that's allgood.

(01:54):
And uh our schedule, we'realready in that position of in
the calendar of what works forus and what works for the
organization for us to get toit, get to them in 2026.
So I think I had three firedepartments today.
We're trying to get theirtrainers booked, and it's pretty
much so pretty much so May andBeyond, though we got some

(02:16):
flexibility in there forworkshops for sure that we could
plug in.
But as far as trainers go, wegot a week or two maybe before
May.
But if you're if you're lookingfor any flexibility and getting
dates, it's really May andBeyond.
So if you're looking for atrainer regionally, reach out
and we'll try to get it on thebooks for you.

SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
So one of the things that we do want to let everybody
know too is we have some datesin Phoenix that are open.
So you can go to b shifter.com,go to our events, and you'll be
able to sign up there.
Phoenix is lovely in January.
So if you're from a coldlocation, you can come in here,
do class all day.
We'll get you out in time so youcan enjoy a little evening of uh

(02:58):
nice weather before you comeback to the next class.
So it's uh a great environment.
Plus, the AVBCTC is the worldclass command training center.
Go to bluecardtraining.com or bshifter.com and you can get uh
signed up for that.
How are you doing, Chris?
What's going on with you?

SPEAKER_02 (03:14):
Darn good.
It'd be nice to have a bunch ofpeople come out in January and
February.
You can wear shorts to thetrainer here in Phoenix.
It's uh it's a good time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Always shorts and sweater weather, which is or
sweatshirt weather, which I Ienjoy immensely.
Well, today's topic is istalking about who is training
your firefighters and wherewhere do we start on the
training and who would like tokick this topic off here and and
talk about why this is animportant consideration for

(03:46):
chiefs, for training officers,operations chiefs, because I've
been victim of it myself as achief, where we've sent somebody
to class and they come backeither brainwashed or with a
completely different vision andidea of what the fire department
really should be doing.

SPEAKER_00 (04:05):
Well, I I I think I could throw out a few topics
like that we will we couldaddress throughout this, and I
don't know, maybe we might notget to them all, might end up
having to be part two.
But I think first of all is weall have to get into the mindset
of being lifelong learners, notone and done.
And we all we've all livedthrough that and gone to a class
20 years ago, and you think youremember it 20 years later.

(04:25):
And it's like that, that's not athat's not an ideal, uh ideal
thing.
And then the whole point of youknow who's training the fire
department's intern yourpersonnel internally within your
organization, like who who arethose people?
And you know, with that, youhave to think about the formal
and informal instructors, if youwill, right?

(04:48):
Like Chris is teachingsomething, this is the way we're
gonna do it at the Phoenix FireDepartment, but Joe has a better
idea and he tells people hisway.
So that's that's a part of it.
And then I think another one isthe hosted trainings when you
bring somebody into yourorganization to present.
So, like looking at that, theirbackground, can they even are

(05:09):
they even instructors at theirown organization?
And what they're coming toteach, do they even in any way,
shape, or form do that at theirorganization when you're
bringing somebody in from theoutside?
And then the the last one isthat outside training.
When you're sending somebody outto, you know, a class somewhere
on the road, a workshop, youknow, sending them to one of the
conferences, whatever, makingsure that what you're committing

(05:33):
to send them to, or whateveryou're committing to get them
trained up or educated on alignswith your fire department's
really your mission, vision, andvalues, all of them.
Uh, because so often I thinkpeople end up going to a
training and it's an excellenttraining on maybe how to do

(05:55):
something, but it doesn't alignin any way, shape, or form with
with their organization's, youknow, deployment model or really
the expectations of of the firedepartment when the when the
bell rang.
So this is a this is a thistopic's got you know thousands
of points, I think.
And I think we really also haveto hit on the training versus

(06:17):
education, because when we sendsomebody the training, I think
that's uh how do you dosomething.
And then the education is whereit really comes into the why are
we doing what we're doing.
And I mean, we could talk abouteverything from how we load hose
on the fire truck and how wedeploy hose to you name it, all

(06:40):
of it, right?
So I think there's a bunch ofdifferent parts and pieces
there, and I think we all haveto have the understanding and
and lay out that expectationwhen we send people to train
here, we bring people in thatare we bringing them in because
this is what we're gonna do, orare we bringing them in because
this is just an idea and we wantto hear some of their things and
we'll we'll hash it out afterthey leave of what we're

(07:01):
actually gonna do.
But far too often since youknow, since 1990, you know, I
I've been hearing friends,colleagues, whatever, go to
something and they come back andthey try to institute or play
out whatever skill it is thatthey were taught at some some
training, and it's like that'snot gonna work here.

(07:24):
And you just learned that lastweek, and you're trying to make
a solution fit where thatproblem that you're trying to
solve doesn't even exist.
So I think it's I think it'sjust a it's a super broad topic.
So uh I just wanted to throwthat out there to kind of get it
started.
But it starts, I think, with theyou know, with the organization
of what are we going to send ourfolks to and who are we gonna

(07:48):
have coming here to train ourpeople.
And it can't be, well, thisguy's super cool, so I'm having
him come in here because he'llget our morale all up and he'll
tell everybody how great theyare and whatever.
It it it's gotta be, it's gottafix our organization or your
organization's you knowexpectations and deployment.

SPEAKER_02 (08:08):
In any organization right now, if you're not
prepared for your members toreceive or your ability to
process some form of outsidetraining for you and your
members and your department, youare you are ill-prepared as an
organization.
Because right now, given socialmedia, YouTube, all the other

(08:30):
platforms where it's available,like daily, uh, and and you're
not ready or you haven't thoughtabout the whether they're
getting it, how they're gettingit, what they're doing with it,
and and actually preparing forthat, you're you're you're in
trouble, right?
And so the my my first messagewould be to get start to get a

(08:51):
grip of it, right?
Because it's happening, the it'salready left the barn.
You need to get your shittogether, really.
And then, but then having aperspective of how valuable some
of this training actually canbe.
I came from an organization andwith a fire chief who, you know,
very specifically looked me inthe eye and said, hey man, an

(09:11):
education is people and places.
One of the most critical formsof education is people and
places.
So going places, learningthings, talking to people, all
of that's incredibly important.
And then I also worked in a firedepartment where we conducted,
uh, shoot, I think at our peakthree conferences a year where
people were coming in from allover the fire department to to

(09:34):
listen to whatever it is that wewere talking about or the folks
that we had brought in that whatthey were talking about.
And and so, you know, there werea lot of people that took that
information back and they triedto then operationalize it and
figure out how if and how thatcould actually work for them.
So I guess I've seen all sidesof it and and obviously
participating in it now.

(09:55):
Heck, we're talking on thispodcast today.
That's it's part of the thelexicon of this whole deal, is
we need to start to come toterms with it, recognize it,
recognize its value, recognizeits threat, and then be able to
start to manage it.
So this topic of who is actuallytraining your folks is

(10:15):
incredibly important.
And this is a this is a vettingskill now that departments and
training officers and companyofficers and shoot, anybody
that's responsible for anybodyelse in a fire department needs
to start actually thinking aboutrealizing and recognizing
because there are so many formsof training, you know, available
to us and what is available orwhat is usable and what isn't,

(10:37):
and what is nonsense and whatisn't is is all really, really
important.

SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Well, how do we go about validating who who the
instructor is, the messagethey're sending, how does it
align with your department'svision and mission?
And then how do we validate thetopic too, whether it's needed
or not?
Maybe that's a good spot tostart.

SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
I think one thing starting is we have to if we're
gonna send people out, you know,it's it's sometimes it's hard to
read a description and seeexactly what something is unless
it's a unless it's a fullcertification where there's a
ton of information available andhere's the objectives that
you're gonna go through andhere's what you're gonna be
evaluated on.
If you're sending somebody to,you know, a two-day or

(11:20):
three-day, you know, trainingthat's one and done, it's kind
of hard to see through all thelines, I guess, if you will, of
what what's gonna come out ofthat.
So I think a piece is if you'regonna send people outside is you
gotta take the good and yougotta leave the bad, and or you
gotta take what works for us andleave what doesn't work for us.

(11:43):
But that that you have to beable to see through the message.
And we also have to communicate,I think, internally with our
people that that that we'regonna send, personnel that we're
gonna send to training, thatjust because we're sending you
there does not mean that we'reendorsing whatever was taught
there to be used here, whichcomes back to your
organization's, you know,deployment model and

(12:05):
expectations and and how do youreally operate at ABC Fire
Department.
So I I think far too oftenpeople go to a training and and
we see this all over the place.
And I mean, we see it everyweek, I think, everywhere that
we go and do training, that theywent somewhere a month ago and
picked something up and theytried to use a skill and it
didn't work.
And it's like, well, it didn'twork because they taught you how

(12:27):
to do whatever it was,everything from a task level to
tactical level to you're theyou're the IC, and you were
trying to again apply a solutionto a problem that didn't exist.
And you know, we see that.
And uh Bruno, you are Bruno, Ithink, always used to basically
call that the detour.

(12:48):
Instead of looking at what thereal problem is and going
directly to solving the problem,we did 25 other things because
you know somebody told us wecould or we should, or I I know
this skill, so that's just whatI'm gonna do.
And we don't start with thatthinking component of solving
the problem.
So I think internal within theorganization, we have to start

(13:10):
with all of those things ofmaking sure our people and our
personnel understand trainingthat's being delivered, you
know, from somebody coming fromthe outside in or sending people
out to an outside training is wemay entertain the ideas that
come back from it becausethere's a lot of really good
things out there and we need to,you know, change and stay
current, but it doesn't meanyou're gonna come back and we're

(13:31):
just gonna start doing that thenext that next day.

SPEAKER_02 (13:33):
Yeah, I kind of look at there's two lanes here for
that training where folks aregoing outside of the
organization to to go to atraining or attend a class or a
conference or whatever.
There are the ones where thedepartment is actually gonna
fund and they're they'repurposely and deliberately
sending the you know the membersthere and giving them the time

(13:57):
off and paying for whatever itis they're gonna pay for, and
they're some basicallysponsoring them to go to that.
And that needs to come with someresponsibilities for those
members that are attending itfrom the organization.
Hey, we're sending you to this,and when you come back, we would
like some form of organizedcogent thoughts on what it is
you actually did, what youactually learned, what you see

(14:20):
of value, what you didn't see ofvalue, and then how does that
connect to the way we dobusiness, whether it's from a
procedural standpoint, aresource standpoint, a response
and deployment standpoint.
And then we can evaluate that asan organization.
And I certainly want thoseindividuals' input that
participated in that.
But there's some decisions thathave to get made is all right,

(14:41):
hey, is that worth sharing tothe rest of the organization?
Is that a worth adopting intoour the way we do uh our work or
or but you know, evenpotentially changing policy and
procedure on that type of stuff?
That's pretty important.
But right now, because of thesheer volume of training that's
available, there's a significantamount of folks who are

(15:02):
attending these on their owndime, on their own time, under
their own, you know, their ownmotivation, I guess if is the
right way to put that.
And they're they don't feelnecessarily a connection to
their organization.
Maybe they, maybe theorganization doesn't send them.
Maybe they're, maybe theindividuals are frustrated by
that.
Or they're just, you know,they're hard chargers and

(15:23):
go-getters, and they they theywant to go to as much as they
can.
So awesome.
I I think all of it's great.
But those folks that go to that,then they harbor and hold that
information, you know, and thereisn't any obligation or
coordination or recognition andresponsibility of how that's
gonna come back and get shared.

(15:44):
That maybe get shared with themand and you know, their peers,
that may get shared with them atthe company level.
It may not go beyond that.
And sometimes it can be veryvaluable things, and sometimes
it can be very, very harmfulthings to an organization,
right?
And things that definitely go acounterflow to the way that
their standards normallyoperate.

(16:05):
And so we again, organizationsneed to be prepared to deal with
that and work with that.
And, you know, I'm not a personwho feels as if we need a policy
on everything.
And in fact, I'm probably quitethe contrary, but there needs to
be, I'm gonna connect this tothe silverback stuff, right?
If there's a solidorganizational push and an

(16:28):
organizational demand foreffective quality training and
quality operations, and thebosses are engaged in the work
and they're they're interestedin the training that the
firefighters are getting, thenthere's a high likelihood that
that comes back and that getsused in a in a very organized
standard way, right?
And it's not a disruption.

(16:49):
But if you're disengaged fromyour members, you're disengaged
from the work, you're disengagedfrom what's happening in the
American Fire Service, then youare regular on a regular basis
are going to be surprised by thethings that our your members go
out and get trained on and learnand try and bing bring back to
your organization, maybeoftentimes because you're not

(17:11):
providing anything for them.
And so there's this, there arethese two distinct lanes where I
think this is really running,and and organizations really
need to improve how they'regoing to deal with both
potentials with that.
And and and then the vetting ofthe instructors.
A flyer pops up uh just a weekago in you know, in my in my

(17:35):
region here uh for thistraining.
It's actually sent to me by oneof the guys who's who's putting
it together.
Says, hey, we'd love to havesome of your folks here.
Cool.
I read it, I'm interested in it,and and I, but I have questions.
And so I pick up the phone and Icall.
Hey, hey, what's going on?
Hey, what are you doing?
Who's teaching it?

(17:56):
What what what what benchmarksare you using?
What what information do youhave for them so that I can
start to figure out do I want tospend department resources to
actually send them to this?
And how am I going to use andand and and uh synthesize that
information that they get andbring back to the organization?
Because I don't want it to bedisruptive.

(18:17):
And I also like sending my folksto training that that makes them
feel good about being engaged inin the fire service.
So yeah, do the homework.
Pick your phone up.
If you don't know and if they'regoing across the country, pick
your phone up and call somebodyand ask them, hey, what's what
hey, I saw your training.
What's going on?
What are you teaching?
Who is teaching it?

(18:37):
What is the foundation of it?
And if they can't or won't giveyou that information and can't
and provide that stuff to you,it's likely not a class you want
to send your folks to, right?
If you can't be transparentabout what and how you're gonna
teach somebody something to anorganization, then that's to me,
in my eyes, that's superproblematic.

SPEAKER_00 (18:58):
Chris, I think everything you just hit there
really just goes back to thatstandard and consistent thing as
a part of it, right?
Like is are they gonna deliverthis in a standard and
consistent way?
So organizationally thinkingabout, you know, does it fit
what we are what we're reallylooking for?
But then the second part of itis I can't send if I have a if I
have a hundred that I'm gonnasend to something, I can't send

(19:19):
five to this one and hear fromABC and send five more to
somebody else to hear aboutsomething else just because I'm
checking a box of example fireofficer one, two, three, and
four.
You know, it's everywhere from80 hours to 200 hours and being
delivered all online to all inperson to you can put you know a
bunch of different classestogether and get the certificate

(19:40):
at the end of it.
Every training is is is likethat, right?
So it's like what is reallygonna come out of that?
And and then I think thinkingabout that thing is is it gonna
help us improve our skills?
And then is this consistent withwhat we do?
And then how does it align withour productivity or

(20:03):
effectiveness when the bellrings?

SPEAKER_01 (20:05):
Well, I'm surprised how many people are teaching
classes out there.
They go outside their departmentand they're the quote unquote
experts, but their owndepartment will not allow them
to teach.
Have you have you seen that?
I mean, I I think that's a redflag, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
Well, I I think it's a red flag, but oftentimes on
the surface, we don't know whatit's a red flag for because I
have seen instances where theperson that is actually teaching
that it is way outside of theirorganizational standards, way
outside of what is acceptableinside their organization.
And they they have, you know,they they feel like their

(20:43):
opinion's much more importantthan the organizational opinion
for them.
But then I've also seeninstructors get vilified in
their own organization and getbecause they're they're
challenging their own system,and then the only way they can
participate, and the only waythey even feel engaged is
actually going outside of theirsystem to teach.

(21:03):
So I don't know that it'snecessarily a guaranteed red
flag or a guaranteed, oh yeah,don't go there, or this is gonna
be a you know a hot mess.
But again, it's that evaluationis the nice thing about the fire
service now and how connected weare is you can find somebody who
knows somebody that that cangive you information and give

(21:24):
you answers about what's goingon there, what's gonna be
taught, what's their history,where are they from, all those
things, what's theirorganizational position?
Are they teaching something thatthat is at their organizational
level?
Or are they or or do you havefirefighters teaching people
what the incident commandershould know and do?
You know, that those things arenot very well connected and and

(21:46):
and those to me are a red flag.
So I think on the instructor endof it, we we need to be more
deliberate and more proactive asthe people that are responsible
for training in ourorganizations.
And if they're going and andyou're not sure, or you're
concerned, or you're like, ooh,shit, then then I need to do my
homework and I need to call andfigure that out.

(22:08):
Because how many people in allof the train the trainers that
we do here that, oh wow, bluecard's not what everybody else
made it out to be?
Well, yeah, that happens a lot,right?
So uh every all systems are canbe victims of this type of uh
mentality or generalization andall that type of stuff.
So it's let's be adults andactually start figuring out,

(22:32):
okay, where are they going?
What are they doing?
I I'm not gonna send my kidssomeplace that that I think is
screwed up.
And or if I have questions, I'mgonna call and make sure that I
feel comfortable doing it.
And if I'm not, I'm not gonnasend them, right?
I I have no, I have no differentfeeling about taking care of my
firefighters that way and andand supporting them in the

(22:52):
places they should go andtelling them, hey man, I'm I'm
concerned about you going there.
I realize you're going on yourown time and dime and all that
other stuff, but I don't, youknow, they've actually injured
people at that training before.
I'm concerned.
I I actually am concerned aboutyou.
I don't want the same thinghappening to you.
So I think there's a there's avarying perspective there that

(23:14):
we have to consider.

SPEAKER_00 (23:16):
I think going back to this, the the training and
education part of it, and I meanthey're they're so close, but
they're really so far apart.
So that you know, the trainingpart of the skills is is
fantastic, and we know uh uhthousands of people on the road
teaching skills, right?
That that are fantastic, youknow, none better.
And you know, maybe it's a timerest constraints or whatever,

(23:38):
but the the a missing componentto so much training is the why
part of it.
And they just think when yousend personnel or they choose to
go to this training, they thinkthat that that's the way that it
is, especially whenorganizations send send someone
to a training, that they'relike, Well, the organization
sponsored this and sent me tothis, so this is this is the way

(24:01):
that it is, and this is youknow, this is what we do.
But we all know that there's ahuge component missing of why do
we do that?
And you know, if you if we wantto jump to we could jump right
to command training.
And Chris, you traveling aroundthe country now, but working in
the land of milk and honey atthe Phoenix Fire Department with

(24:23):
staffing, you know, something wehear all the time is we're not
the Phoenix Fire Department, wedon't have all that staffing, we
can't do all of this, we don'thave a command van.
How do we possibly set up acommand team?
How would you ever get threepeople in a car?
How would you, whatever?
And, you know, one thing I thinkthat, you know, that one thing
that we do with that is we wetalk about the why do you fill

(24:45):
those positions and how do youadjust it to have that work in
your region, right?
So all the suburban work that wedo, you know, as soon as you
pull that map map out and youdraw a circle that's as big as
the Maricopa County responsearea or the Phoenix Fire
Department's response area, andthey're like, it's like, well,

(25:05):
you guys got 15 chiefs on dutyright there.
You could get the chiefs there,right?
But you talk to them about whyit's important to get them
there, and then you show themthat it can be done.
But on the flip, if we didn't dothat, people would leave and
say, Well, we're not the PhoenixFire Department, and we couldn't
possibly do that because wecan't get that many people
there.
And it's like, well, you can.

(25:26):
The model just looks differentof of how how you get them
there.
Your deployment model, you know,just looks different.
So, you know, we're we docommand training and decision
making and made a management anddivision ops and big box and all
of those things.
And with all of those parts andpieces, we we always talk about
why.
So it's it's it's both trainingand education because we always

(25:49):
tie it back to, you know, thelatest science or standards or
actual events that havehappened.
It's not it's not that you'rethe Kendall, just say what I
told you to say, right?
And we're we're sufferingthrough that still now, because
it's not it's not don't haveanything to do, well, it has
everything to do withcommunications too, but that's

(26:10):
just a very small part of theprogram.
But when people leave andthey're like, oh, it's just a
communications thing, it's like,well, you missed it because it's
not just a communications thing,right?
It it communications is justwhere you're acting out that
piece of it.
And and I think that's wherewhere it was that's a training
thing.
I just need you to do what Itold you to do.
And they don't understand why.

(26:31):
But I think when we educate themand they get to understand why,
then they then that's where thatcritical thinking and they put
that hat on of, okay, what isthe problem, and then what's
standing in the way of ussolving the problem, not this is
just the way that you do itevery time.
We we have a system that'sstandardized, but the system has
the strategic decision-makingmodel so that you can make
decisions to solve the problembecause everything's

(26:53):
everything's different, right?

SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
Had a guy this week just talk to me about a
situation because they docommand training on a shift.
He said our company officers arereally good.
It's like a seven or eightstation fire department with one
battalion on duty, the battalionwill not train with them.
So the battalion gets there andhe does his minimum blue card
training, but the ongoingdiscussions that the shift has.

(27:16):
So how do you how do youovercome that if you have a uh
especially with commandtraining, if you have a chief
level officer that is yourresponse chief, but they're not
training with you.

SPEAKER_02 (27:28):
This is This is one of the most critical skills that
firefighters and and companyofficers and just anybody who's
responsible for anybody else ina fire department needs to start
to learn, is you have to figureout ways to manipulate and trick
people into doing the thingsthat you want and need them to
do, right?
And so if you have a boss that'snot participating with you in

(27:51):
the the critical training thatyou need, especially somebody
who's going to be your Shift BC,going to be your IC number two,
then you need to figure out waysto actually get them involved
without saying w maybe stoppingshort of saying, hey, you need
to train with us more is startasking questions.

(28:11):
Like, hey, this is what we havegoing on.
This was an incident that weactually had.
Well, how do you see it?
This is this is what we thought,this is what we did, this is the
way we were going to set thisup, these were the actions we
were going to take.
Uh what what do you think?
And draw them into theconversation because it doesn't

(28:33):
necessarily have to be formal,it doesn't necessarily have to
be, you know, planned.
But if you get them involved inthe simple things, and even if
it's at the dinner table, startthat conversation there, that
could be an incredibly importanttraining opportunity that you
know isn't necessarily wasn'tplanned or ness or structured

(28:53):
inside the organization, but itturns into something very
valuable.
So this is where the the the theofficers and the firefighters
have to start to lead up.
They have to start to uh drawtheir boss in.
And I'll be honest, I'll behonest with you, you start to
manipulate your boss to help youactually be better at your job.

(29:14):
To trick them into doing theirjob, right?
And and be able to, you know,improve that.
And and trust me, there are somepeople that are even impervious
to that.
You know, they are they'reabsolutely disengaged and
they're complete slugs andthey're not going to do it, then
you have a whole differentproblem on your hands, but

(29:35):
that's the the there's othermethods to deal with those
people.
But this is be upfront andserious, and it's hard for the
majority of bosses who generallywant to do a good job, but maybe
don't know how to actually helpthem get engaged and break that
down because they may be scaredto death to talk to you.

(29:57):
I I don't know.
That that I think that's a realpossibility, though.
And bring them in, suck them in,and you can you can do that.
I know Eric Phillips has somefantastic examples of things
that he's actually done to drawother people in, other bosses,
his boss into what it is thatthey have going on at the
company level, and and then allnext thing you know, it's

(30:20):
happening at the battalionlevel.
Next thing you know, it's hey,everybody on this shift, and and
and it and it and it growsorganically that way, right?
So it sometimes you're not haveto be so overt and force and
push, but draw them in and Anduse some Jedi mind tricks and
then and you can find yourselfbeing pretty successful that

(30:42):
way.

SPEAKER_00 (30:43):
And with all training, no matter how it is,
that's a difficult one if you'reif your boss isn't
participating.
But like Chris said, I thinkthat's there's still a way to
get them to do it.
I mean, maybe they are scared todeath to come because they
aren't confident in their skillsor whatever, which is really
scary if they won't come totraining.
But you know, sometimes I thinkthat's some underlying things of
the culture of the organizationthat if Chris shows up to this

(31:05):
training, we're going to eat himtoday.
And it's like, well, educationand training can't be hazing
that has to be there becausewe're trying to do better, that
we're trying to get everybody onthe same page.
We're trying to I mean it allcomes down to the service,
right?
We're all trying to provide thebest service we can possibly
provide.
And, you know, IC number two isproviding customer service,

(31:28):
quite frankly, to I know peopledon't like this sometimes, the
internal customer, which is allthose firemen that are there
taking care of them so that theycan take care of Mrs.
Smith, you know, out on the fireground.
But if if there's a separationor that division and the
companies are always, or viceversa, the that they're if they
can't get along and they'realways eating each other in the

(31:48):
firehouse, uh, you're you're notgoing to be very successful in
training.
But it's that thing of gettingeverybody on the same page.
And then I think taking littlewins, right?
Like take take take littlersteps and get some wins and get
people comfortable with what'sgoing on and everybody getting
on the same page and then justkeep growing it from there.

(32:10):
You can't jump, you can't jumpright into we're gonna do Mayday
training if if they strugglewith uh command transfer and
managing four companies.
So that that's the education andtraining part of it, right?
Like some people learn atdifferent paces, different
different knowledge, skill, andabilities.
So I think we have to tie all ofthat together.

SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Yeah, there there's I think another part of this is
if you're a training boss or anops boss, a fire chief, and you
in in any way get the sense thatthe people that you've put in
charge to be battalion chiefsaren't engaging in training the
way they should, then that's athat's that's a fire chief ops

(32:52):
chief training chief problem.
They have the they have amalfunction that they're not
setting clear expectations forthe folks that they're putting
in the positions to be battalionchiefs to engage in that
training.
The expectation is that they areleaders and organizational
leaders specifically in theperformance, behavior, and
capability of those folks thatthey're that they're there to

(33:14):
manage, right?
So at that battalion chieflevel, if they're not doing it
and the bosses are okay withthem not doing it, it's not a
battalion chief problem.
It's a fire department firechief problem.
And and we do see thatregularly, unfortunately, right?
Especially because we we dealwith a lot of folks who are
trying to change yourorganization from the middle
rather than the the than the topdown.

(33:34):
And so we we you've got to wecan't walk past that and not
call that out for what it is,because it it's a hundred
percent legitimate and true inin many instances.
And uh and if you're a firecompany that has that problem
and and you have the access toto people above your boss,
sometimes you're gonna need tocommunicate to that above your
boss.

(33:54):
Because but don't do that first.
You know, try and get themengaged and try and help them do
the right thing.
But if they're not doing it,then use other means.

SPEAKER_00 (34:05):
Yeah, so that that that that whole topic is
specifically on that internalpiece, right?
Like who who's training andhow's the training going within
internally in your organization?
And we do see that all the timeat organizations as we travel
around the country that youknow, three engines and a truck
show up to their burn building,you know, that's at their
training center, which is wherewe do a ton of our stuff, you
know, at the classroom orwhatever, and you happen to be

(34:26):
outside or look out and seethem, and yeah, the chiefs are
there having a coffee clutch,you know, in their uh white
shirts hanging out holding courtwhile the companies are
training.
And it's like, well, that that'sthe opportunity to fix it.
And then, you know, oftentimesfrom that, the next the next
piece comes that uh one of thosecompanies isn't doing what
they're supposed to do becausepeople are going to perform,

(34:50):
oftentimes, people are onlygoing to perform at that lowest
level of what's acceptable.
And if they see that, well, thechiefs aren't training, then I'm
not gonna train either.
Well, the chiefs are here andthey're supposed to be doing
this drill, and they're theyshould be fully packed out,
geared up for what we're doingwith this exercise, but they're
they're not doing anything.
It's like, well, the next timeuh the good people are always

(35:13):
probably gonna do what they needto do most of the time, but that
other percentage is is gonna isgonna start to go that same
direction.
And then you have you know, halfthe people that are at the
exercise or at this training notdoing what they're supposed to
do.
And uh I think that comes backto that expectation thing and
holding people, holding peopleaccountable for for the

(35:36):
expectations that were laid out.
So if the training division putssomething out and says this is
what we're gonna do, oroperations puts it out and says
this is what we're gonna do,then that's what we're gonna do.
And I think that we have to wehave to check in so often and
verify that that's nothappening.
And when it's not happening, weneed to we need to do something
about that internally, becausethat I I I see that going on

(35:59):
right now around our region withsometimes with with people that
show up.
And it's floated down to somecaptains now, go to training and
get off the truck, and it'slike, well, this is you have to
have all your PPE on for this.
And they're like, Oh, our fire,my firemen are just doing it.
And it's like no, you work withthem, you're part of the
company, and the company workstogether.

(36:22):
And you know, sometimes it'sthat comment of, well, the
chiefs are supposed to beplaying a role in this, and
they're not doing what they'resupposed to do.
So that's so we're gonna do whatwe do.
So yeah, that that that's gottabe addressed as well.

SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
Yeah, uh, one of my favorite things that I used to
see at our academy, and byfavorite things I mean one of
the things I hate the absolutemost, is companies that would,
you know, be in the area of ourtraining academy, come down on
the weekends or afternoons orwhenever it was quiet, and they
would be training.
And I would watch a company, uha four or five person company

(36:53):
drilling with their probationaryfirefighter, and the only person
that has their gear on doinganything is a probationary
firefighter.
And there's three or four otherdudes standing around watching
that person do whatever it isthat they're doing.
That ain't training.
That isn't teaching, that's noteducation, that's not nothing.
That's making them come down anddo shit that you want them to

(37:14):
do.
That's uh I that probably couldfit the definition of slavery,
right?
And so that if if we have thatat the company level, you
probably have that at thebattalion level.
If you have that at thebattalion level, you probably
have that at the shift toorganizational level, right?
So you've got a whole host andstream of malfunctions that

(37:36):
actually need to be fixed.
And that's typically fixedtop-down, not bottom-up.
And that becomes reallyimportant to deal with and
recognize.
And that can be that can be areally hard, uncomfortable
lesson for a department ordepartmental leaders to actually
learn, be to become familiarwith, learn, and then try and
actually fix.
But it's very much worth it.

(37:58):
And if you have that malfunctioninside your organization,
sending people outside of yourorganization to do training is
almost a sure-fired way tocreate more division, more
failure, more crisis inside yourorganization.
It's not gonna be better justbecause they go out.
So uh really this is a this is acentric issue, is if you're if

(38:24):
you're broken internally withregards to training, uh, going
outside your organizationprobably ain't gonna fix it.
The places that are arefunctioning the best internally
tend to be the departments thatare doing best with external
training, right?
Not only in in how they bringthat and process that
information, but where they sendpeople to, how they vet that

(38:47):
training, because they have aclear understanding of what's
important and what isn't, right?
So that internal stuff, it's andyou said it, Josh, it's no
different than customer service.
If we can't be nice to eachother, there is no way we're
being nice to Mrs.
Smith on a consistent basis.
It ain't gonna happen, right?
So if we're ineffective,disorganized, dysfunctional on

(39:08):
how we train inside ourorganization, top down, then we
are going to be that way withprocessing and using information
from outside of ourorganization.
And that's gonna do nothing butmake firefighters and and
company officers who are, youknow, trying to gain information
and get better at their job.
It's just gonna make them moreand more frustrated, right?

(39:28):
So we've got this chicken andegg thing going on here.
That the but the recognitionhere is you got to fix it inside
before you can fix it outside.

SPEAKER_01 (39:36):
Let's talk about Big Brother for a moment.
You know, we we all have them.
Uh Josh coined that phrase forme a while back.
So we we have Big Brother in thesense of communities have that,
you know, bigger fire departmentthey look up to.
We wrote about it this week andon bShifter.com.
And then ultimately, you know,there's some very well-known,
very charismatic, veryknowledgeable, skilled

(39:59):
instructors that go out and theyand they teach their message,
but it's not scalable to hardlyany other fire department out
there other than their own.
How do we overcome that?

SPEAKER_00 (40:10):
It comes back to that validation.
If we're gonna, I mean, ifthey're going on their own, it's
kind of hard to control it,right?
I mean, we can control when theybring it back that like this is
how ABC fire departmentoperates, this is what we're
gonna do, this is our deploymentmodel, this is how many people
we have, this is the equipmentthat's available.
Just because you chose to go toa class or I sent you to a class
doesn't mean when you come backthat I can buy or you know,

(40:32):
change our whole deploymentmodel in five minutes.
Now, like Chris said earlier, ifyou if you can justify and have
a a good reason why we should dosomething, that it's best
practice, or I don't want to saythat we were doing anything
wrong, but but that there's abetter way, then yeah, we we can
look into that.
But far too often that comesback to the I work at the

(40:55):
suburban fire department and Iwent to a class of at the big
that the Big Brother FireDepartment was teaching, and I
want to be them.
So then I I try to bring thatback to you know my organization
and whether it's a equipmentthing or a staffing thing, or in
some cases, you know, buildingconstruction, you name it, like

(41:17):
uh things that are different.
And I think a piece of thatthat's missing is it's very easy
to teach task level stuff, andit takes it's hard and takes
time to explain why, when andwhy we would do some of these,
some of these, you know, thingsthat we do on the fire ground,

(41:37):
whether it's uh command, whetherit's you know, division ops is
one of the things that I wrotedown.
It's like, you know, there'sthere's so many places that you
go and you take the one-dayclass from somebody who's
teaching division ops, and theybelieve that if I'm the division
boss, that if I'm at a two-storyhouse on fire, that I as a
division boss operate on thefirst floor of the house and I'm
division one and I'm responsiblefor two companies in there.

(41:59):
And it's like, well, you'reyou're nothing more than a
glorified fireman in there.
And all you're sell telling allthe firemen and the company
officers in there is that youdon't trust them.
But we we we see that, right?
And it that that that's not themodel, and it doesn't work.
Now, in a lot of big cities, youknow, there there's a layer of
that that they'll put a chiefofficer and their aide in a

(42:21):
position inside the buildinglike that, not in the probably
still in the warm zone, but theywould operate there to gather
more information or or orwhatever that may be.
But they're not the divisionboss.
They're they're just operatingwith multiple other companies,
maybe in a in a geographic area.
We can we could put, you know,the FDNY, right?

(42:43):
They'll put a chief on the roofto to just see what's going on,
and they're gonna do a ton ofwork up there.
And they got, you know, five,six, seven companies maybe on
the roof sometimes, you know,open it up.

SPEAKER_02 (42:53):
There's more companies on that roof that are
on duty in 99% of the firedepartments of the United
States.
Right.
And I'm not I'm not begrudgingthe FDNY, but that the reality
is that, just what you said,Josh.

SPEAKER_00 (43:06):
It's real, right?
And it's like you you can't takethat back to ABC Suburban Fire
Department that gets, you know,13 people in 17 minutes at a
house on fire.
But but they they they try toemulate what they what they
might have been told.
And the other one I wrote downis the the whole big box thing,

(43:27):
right?
There's this comes back to thewho's teaching your fire
department and what are youdoing and what's the real
message and what's best practiceand what really works.
And there's a big ass differencebetween the Stearns and Foster
Betting Company that was twoblocks from my house my entire
life, five to seven stories twothousand foot-long building with

(43:48):
a basement that had, you know,cotton in it for 120 years,
where they made mattresses, nosprinkler system, except for,
you know, manually activatedpipes that they could like
basically turn on, versus thenew one million square foot
Amazon distribution center.
And I I bring that up becauseyeah, that old mill building
down there, uh, I don't knowhow, but you know, it did not

(44:11):
burn to the ground for 150years, though there was a fire
in it once a week.
And you know, yeah, we stretchedtwo and a halves in there and
multiple hand lines.
And it was, I remember there wasthere was times where they were
the fire department was therefor days.
And it's like, well, ifsomebody's teaching you a class
and they think that thosetactics are what we would use at

(44:31):
a big box Amazon distributioncenter that's fully sprinklered,
that the only ones that have hadany significant fire is the ones
that the sprinkler system wasshut off or the fire department
shut off.
Our training has to look totallydifferent, right?
Because the factors that areinvolved.
But, you know, we see it thatthere's four or five classes out
there right now fighting firesin big boxes.

(44:54):
And the first thing it says onthere, big building, big hand
line, smooth bore nozzles,reach.
And you know, when we when wesit seven, eight, nine, ten
times a year with Shane Ray, andthen with some of the burns
we've done, it's like, no, thesprinkler system is containing
the fire, and the worst thing wecan do is start blasting water

(45:17):
everywhere and blast the fireeverywhere.
But that's that that's a that'sjust a one little example,
right?
But we've had some of that inthe Cincinnati area.
People go to recently went to aclass on fighting commercial
building fires, and there was nodifferentiation between the

(45:37):
150-year-old old mill buildingand the building that was built
last week that's you know 2.4million square feet at the
Greater Cincinnati Airportthat's fully sprinklered, or the
1.4 million square foot Amazondistribution center that's in
the city of Monroe, just 30minutes from here, where they've
had three working fires inthere, and every single one of

(45:58):
them has been extinguished bythe sprinkler system.
Two of them on the top rack, youknow, 40 feet in the air, one of
them on the very bottom rack,all of them contained in the
fire department, put very littlewater on them.
That's just a much differentfire.
But when you're taking thisbroad swipe of the brush of big
building, and that we do allthese old school things, it it

(46:19):
just doesn't fit.
So the organization needs to,you know, vet that and then have
a discussion with those peoplewhen they come back.
And when they say, Oh, we needto be stretching two and a
halves into every one of thesebig box buildings, you know, ask
them why, and then have thatconversation so they actually
get educated on it, not justtrained on, you know, what that

(46:40):
may look like.

SPEAKER_02 (46:42):
Yeah, I I think uh in a lot of these instances,
we're confusing training forgoing to some type of spiritual
revival.
You know, that it's in a tent inthe middle of a frickin' field
and James Brown's gonna be themusical act, and and we're going

(47:05):
in there to get pumped up andfeel good and connect with our
roots and and and somehow we'regonna come away from this all
knowing, all better, and I'mgonna be able to work way faster
if I don't wear bunker pants andall that other stuff that comes
with this.
We were confusing that withactually education and and

(47:29):
learning how to do something,and which doesn't have a whole
lot of emotion tied to itnecessarily.
You feel good afterwards, likeyou actually learned something,
or hey, I'm gonna be better atbeing able to do XYZ, whatever
it is.
But if you're having to sellyour training or what it is that
you're gonna do, or or or uhyour firefighters need to feel

(47:51):
connected in that spiritual way,then I'm not so sure that
they're gonna learn anything atall there, if that, if that's
the case.
So that goes to this whole idea,and the big box is a great
example of that.
There are so few people now withlegitimate big box experience

(48:12):
and legitimate big boxexperience in the offensive
strategy putting out anuncontained fire in a building
that either did have sprinklersand they weren't working, or
something that overran asprinkler system.
There, the case studies outthere of folks who are being
able to go in and do that in anoffensive strategy in one or two

(48:33):
work cycles of crews and the intheir SCBA air and all that,
that that that the the samplesize of that is so incredibly
small, if at all, that thereisn't the ability to take this
imbiation, put it all together,and then be able to present it
in this wide, wide, broadperspective ideas of, all right,

(48:55):
American Fire Service, we've gotthis all solved.
Come on in, let's talk about it.
That doesn't exist right now.
What we know is we're startingto know more about the systems.
We're not supposed to start toknow how much more complicated
these buildings are.
We have case studies when wedidn't use the systems
effectively.
And let's start plugging thatall that into effective risk

(49:18):
management.
And risk management is connectedto taking risk for savable lives
or savable property on thesliding scale based on what it
is that we've evaluated.
And now we're using a system anda process to actually make
decisions and understand whenand how we're gonna do things
versus this spiritualenlightenment conference that

(49:39):
we're gonna all do and thendrink ourselves silly every
night to be able to come awayand feel like I got a t-shirt, I
got the patch, and now I reallyknow how to do it.
They're not connected togetherin any real way.
And again, that's part of anorganization.
If you're sending people to thisstuff, vet it out.
And if you don't know whetheryou you it's worthy of the

(50:04):
vetting process, find somebodywho you trust that can give you
that information or help youmake that decision, right?
But there are so many folks outthere that are talking about
things that they have literallynever done or they've never been
responsible for on the fireground, or they've never been
responsible for in a fireorganization, and they've never

(50:24):
actually had to answer toanybody and be responsible for
the answer and the actions ofthat organization.
That's that that's allproblematic, man.
That is stuff that you end up inthe newspaper, you end up
talking to a lot of attorneys,and you and people end up losing
their jobs, right?
So we need to be reallyresponsible for that, whether

(50:46):
they're we're whether we'reworking in a fire department and
helping our folks with that, orwhether we're actually the
people out there doing thetraining.
And we we need to have a senseof responsibility.
I'm gonna talk to you aboutstuff.
That's why I feel so stinkingcomfortable teaching what we
teach, because I know thefoundation of it all.
And it comes from reality, itcomes from actual experience,

(51:09):
and it was vetted throughdecades of evaluation of the
system and and adjustment andmaturity of that system.
And so this is uh shoot, wecould get on a roll, big box, we
could talk about Mayday stuff,we could talk about uh
ventilation and truck work, wecould talk about all of it and

(51:31):
and ver what what's necessary,what's important, and what
isn't.
And that's uh yeah, I don'tthink JV has enough tape for us
to talk about all that.

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
Well, there are there are two things I'd like to
get to before we uh wind downtoday.
And we'll get to commandtraining.
Let's do command training towardthe end of our discussion here.
But rapid intervention training.
I see this wide spectrum ofrapid intervention training
throughout our country, and someof it is stuff that's being
taught, you know, 20 years agothat we stopped doing 20 years

(52:05):
ago that's still being taught,and then some state-of-the-art
training.
So, how how do we vet that andreally have let's talk about
rapid intervention for a moment?

SPEAKER_00 (52:14):
So I think I think the IAFF Fireground Safety and
Survival Program, they I mean,they've probably done the most
the research and group like typework, you know, developing and
redeveloping that program andyou know, tying in some of the
things that they've tied intothat program.
But we see every single level ofof organizations that they they

(52:41):
go to some training onfirefighter safety and survival,
writ, fast, rat, whatever youwant to call it, and then that
becomes like some kind ofprimary focus, and then they
train their ass off on all ofthese things that an
organization came up with thatmay or may not work because most

(53:02):
of most of those exercises werea result of a line of duty
death.
And then, you know, in atraining environment, they tried
to come up with the best way tomake something work, you know,
whether you were talking aboutyou know, the Denver drill,
Coglinese drill, you you nameit, right?

(53:22):
Doing that harder isn't thesolution, right?
So, you know, I think more focuson staying out of those
positions is important for youknow the writ rat fast stuff.
And we've we've we've seen quitea bit of transition on that.
And then I don't know how manyyears ago it was now, 25 or so

(53:44):
years ago, I guess.
Uh Cincinnati Fire Departmentsent six or seven people to
Chicago Fire Department whenthey were calling it rat rapid
assistance team training,whatever, and brought it back.
And you know, everybody wentthrough it and got it was a lot
of it was turned into hazing forsome people, I think, because
some of it was like, this isnearly impossible that what what

(54:06):
you want the what you want tosee happen.
So I think with like researchfrom all the stuff Don Abbott
did, and then all the other datathat's out there, we we've seen
this whole rip rat fast thingevolve a bit of what what skills
do we really need that are gonnasave firemen's life?
And it starts with put the fireout.

(54:28):
That's that's number one.
And then don't put yourself in aposition that you can't survive.
And I know this job is you know,shit's gonna happen, right?
And and and potentiallyunexpected, but we can probably
prevent 99% of it.
So when when we're looking atthis whole written firefighter

(54:49):
survival training, I think one,it it has to be realistic, and
then two, we should look at likewhat are the skills that are
being taught there?
And is this we're gonna bringyou here for 40 hours and whip
your ass so that when you gohome you're like, holy shit,
they they tried to kill methere, and now I think I can
survive anything because youknow I I did survive this week,

(55:10):
or is there some real educationand training and something that
I can do something with when Iwhen I leave?
And you know, that's that'sthat's kind of my two cents.
It went from it went from like30 hours of you know, mostly
task level training to a lot ofplaces it's you know down to

(55:32):
like a 12 hour, not forfirefighter, you know, say like
survival stuff, but like writskill stuff because some of it
just isn't realistic, right?
It's uh somebody had this ideaand this is what I'm gonna
teach, and it's like, hasanybody ever pulled this off
before?
And it's like we we can't findany documentation on it, but

(55:53):
we're gonna teach it anyway.
And it's like, well what what isthe best way and what does that
really look like?
And really the best way comesback to ideally put the fire out
and it makes everything better,and then hopefully we don't get
ourselves in that position.
But there's still plenty ofplenty of those classes out
there that uh it's when youleave, you get the tattoo of I

(56:14):
survived, I survived thistraining, and now I'm I'm Johnny
badass because I made itthrough.

SPEAKER_02 (56:21):
I I think that a lot of times when we start talking
about Rick and Rit and all thatremoving a down or and or
trapped firefighter, but youknow, that's that's really the
work we're talking about, andwhatever acronym we want to
connect to it, is knowing andunderstanding on the front end,

(56:43):
what actually causes that.
Like you said, Josh, what iswhat it what what situations are
creating this that thesefirefighters are are finding
themselves in that position, andhow do we stop and prevent and
eliminate or or decrease theopportunity for that to happen?
That's that's a that iscritical.
Maybe more so than than justabout anything else.

(57:05):
However, then let's look at thesituations where we actually go
in and try and locate, retrieve,remove firefighters.
And what do those situationslook like?
How are they occurring?
And what is typically thesolution to those?
When firefighters are lost andfirefighters are running out of

(57:25):
air, that oftentimes is one ofthe most difficult issues that
we can possess.
We have a hard time looking forpeople in large space areas and
actually finding them and beingsuccessful at doing that without
creating a you know significantadditional problems for every
other firefighter that is goingto go look for them.

(57:47):
Case in point, the WorcesterCold Storage Fire, right?
That's a fantastic, you know,incident act case study to
actually look at.
And then what are the othersituations?
The other situations structuralcollapse.
You can look at Houston at theSouthwest End fire, you can look
at maybe most recently the theapartments that collapsed in

(58:07):
Columbia, South Carolina andtrapped that trapped, I think it
was a total of four membersinside there, and then they lost
the the one firefighter.
Right.
When you look at all of those,the the the critical elements of
the rescue involved there, it isthere is a tremendous amount of
work that is very specific tothat incident, those critical

(58:31):
factors, those critical elementsof that, and the ability to to
be able to respond to it in a insome type of consistent way.
And it's it's all incrediblydifficult.
It's there there are so manysituations, there are so many
variables, and there are so manyreasons why that these are

(58:51):
happening that we are unable tobuild some consistent this is
the magic bullet for solvingthese types of of Mayday
incidents.
So we when we when we start tothink that, well, we're gonna
position these companies inthese places and they're gonna
do these things proactivelybeforehand, and they're gonna be

(59:13):
they're gonna be ready for torespond to the Mayday.
Great.
Okay, if that's what you'rechoosing to do.
But do you know how long itactually takes to to put them in
play?
Do you know how long it actuallytakes for them to actually do
the work that's gonna benecessary?
Do they have the resources andcapability to actually be able
to do that?
And because there's gonna be alot of things that you don't

(59:35):
know on the outside until youget to the inside.
It's we're we're we'reoftentimes we're building,
trying to build this unsolvableproblem to be able to solve in
this in this Rick thing becauseit's this, it's a big giant game
that we we end up playing andagain looking for a magic
bullet.
And so when we spend time on thefront end trying to prevent it,

(59:56):
we're actually that's moneyvery, very well spent because we
know the situations that thatcreate these for us.
As we've said, we're not comingup with a whole bunch of new
ways to die or unforeseen waysto kill firefighters on the fire
ground.
And so let's spend time tryingto prevent it.
And then when we start workingon the specific things to do

(01:00:18):
when the Mayday happens, is whatdo we know are the most
consistent ways people aregetting rescued from Maydays?
Focus on that, right?
Every single one of them needsair.
Every single one of them needssome sort of element to extract
or extricate or unconnect themor make them unlost.
Right, or be found.
And so, okay, you can work oncertain things, but to say that

(01:00:41):
all right, this is this is theway we do all of our rescue or
our writ or our rat or whateverthe hell we're going to call it,
is we're bullshitting ourselves.
We we we we absolutely and thenand each other in in that.
So we need to be way more waymore deliberate about what the
work is and all right, focus alittle bit on the key most

(01:01:03):
important elements, but we turnit into games.
There's there's literallycontests now where you can go
and see who's the fastest to dowhatever rescue activity they
can concoct.
And I don't, I guess on thesurface, I don't know if that's
a horrible thing, but I don'tthink that's the solution to

(01:01:24):
this whole uh to Mayday andissue at all, quite honestly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:30):
Well, to wrap it up with uh command training, and
I'm gonna put you guys on thespot here because you know,
really uh the the instructorcadre is Josh's responsibility,
the the curriculum is Chris'sresponsibility.
How how do you guys walk thewalk with this organization and
do exactly what we're talkingabout for everybody else?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:52):
Yeah, so I'll start this off.
So I'd say every single day Iget a phone call or some
correspondence from somebodyabout and tell me about blue
card, tell me what blue card is,tell me what it's not.
And you know, most of the timethe people get way more
information, I think, than theywere really asking for.

(01:02:13):
But, you know, one thing is isthis this system has been around
uh in in thought, at least inprocess since the 70s.
So we're coming up on you know,over 50 years that this system
has been being used in some formor fashion.

(01:02:34):
And obviously, Chief Bernassini,you know, put all this together
after he thought as a firemanand a company officer at the
Phoenix Fire Department thatthey were trying to kill him
because that that's what itmeans.
Because they were it just yeah,it just wasn't uh like there
there was really wasn't asystem, right?
And and so we as anorganization, you know, stay

(01:02:57):
tied to, and Chris is is reallya pie one of our one of the
people connected to it, but uhwhat is best practice, and then
you know, staying connected toresearch, staying connected to
the standards, and then youknow, staying connected to the
5,000 plus fire departments thatuse the system, and you know,

(01:03:19):
70,000 something users that usethe system and listening to
their feedback of what's goingon.
And then I think, you know, partof part of our proof in the
pudding is I think it's like 31or 32 fire departments that we
where we are after their line ofduty death, and hundreds of fire

(01:03:43):
departments after they had somekind of an event where
firefighters were hurt or oroftentimes hurt and didn't come
back to work.
And you know, we we connect withthose people and talk to them
about how did it change theirorganization and how did it
change their operation.
And one of the things Chief Dyerat at the Worcester Fire

(01:04:04):
Department, he I've heard himsay many times that the blue
card system, they've always beena great fire department, very
aggressive, and I always saymany, many people in the
American Fire Service wouldn'tbe a gnat on a Worcester
fireman's ass, but because theyjust they did they did and they

(01:04:25):
do a shit ton of work, andthat's what they knew, and they
get a ton of resources there.
And you know, after them havingthe system going through the
training, and as they continueto build build out their model
procedures for theirorganization, how they use it
and evolve with Blue Card.

(01:04:45):
Chief Dyer says pretty regularlythat the Blue Card system has
allowed them to be moreeffective and efficient and more
aggressive on the fire groundbecause they have a system and
it's organized in how theydeploy.
It's not a kind of free-for-allthat when you get here, you just

(01:05:06):
do what you think needs to bedone.
And you know, we've we've heardthat from organizations all
across the country that havemade the transition.
And I think that there's comethere's confusion there of the
unknown of the people who say ablue card, they don't go inside.
You know, we they shouldn't callit blue card, they should call

(01:05:26):
it pink card, all of that shit.
Well, it it's it's something Isaid last week on on the podcast
of it's the fear of the unknown.
They don't even know what it is.
So they question it or they say,we're not doing that, because
that's just not what we do.
And you know, the interestingthing is is we have uh some fire

(01:05:49):
departments that are in the 10largest fire departments in the
country that use the system andthey do well with it.
And we have organizations thatare one station that run with
you know 10 other separateorganizations when they go to a
fire that that do well with it.
So we regular we we regularlyget cut phone calls, and I don't

(01:06:10):
say I don't want to say it'sjustification, but we can line
everything that we do up tostandards, best practice, and
the proofs in the pudding of youknow, clearly the system works.
And then I'm always willing totell people, hey, call these
organizations and talk to themabout how it works for them

(01:06:30):
because we we hear that wouldnever work for us.
And it's like, well, you don'teven know what it is and and why
the system is the way that itis.
But oftentimes that's the that'sjust the easy answer of we just
do what we do when we get thereand it just works out.
And you know, in our company wecall that accidental success,

(01:06:50):
and accidental success is notforever.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:53):
Yeah, I think on the curriculum side of it, the one
thing I'm most comfortable andconfident in is that it's all
explainable, it is all logical,and we can connect it to actual
real instances of success whenwhen it's used appropriately,
correctly, and effectively.

(01:07:15):
And we can connect it to timeswhere you know a department or
firefighters have not beensuccessful, they have not been
effective.
We can connect the vast majorityof the time for the lack of a
system and an organizationthere, right?
And and no use of logic there.
And so it makes it very easy toactually explain what it is we

(01:07:39):
do.
I get it.
I've been and around it, I'vebeen around it my whole career.
I'm coming up on 35 years ofbeing in and around this system,
but it has only gotten betterand it has only become more
explainable to anybody.
And the the proof is being ableto teach somebody on day one who
doesn't know shit about this toon day three in a certification

(01:08:00):
lab or day five and to train thetrainer to actually be able to
have them do using iteffectively, obviously in a
training environment, and thenthem being able to turn around
and teach it to somebody elsebecause it's consistent, it's
process, it's not how I feelabout it, it's not how any
individual feels about it.

(01:08:21):
It's we're teaching you asystem.
But the but the the importantpart of that is in our system
and in our world, who's actuallydoing that?
So the credibility and thecompetency that we have of our
instructors to actually be ableto go out and deliver that is so
we get asked, and Josh probablymore than me, but hey, how do I

(01:08:42):
how do I get to do what what didyou guys do there in Blue Card?
And you know, at first my my myanswer was always, hey, as soon
as I figure it out, I'll let youknow.
But that's not a great answer.
The answer is, and the standardanswer is now is the the first
thing you have to do is actuallysend us audio of you andor the

(01:09:05):
folks that you're responsiblefor in your organization using
it and using it effectively.
Is demonstrate that you actuallyknow and understand this system,
that you believe in it enough toactually have taught it
correctly, and that now you areexecuting it effectively in the
real world when there's actuallyshit on fire and there's there's

(01:09:27):
legitimate life safety concerns,and you have firefighters
working in the hazard zone.
That's that's how you get to bethis.
And I can really say veryconfidently, the folks that we
teach with that are the leadinstructors that go out and help
other people become instructors,or or that they they train other
instructors, have thatlegitimacy behind them.

(01:09:49):
They can actually say and proveand and lay out pure clean
evidence of no, I understand thesystem because this is the way
we use it.
And that's incredibly powerful.
Very, very few places canactually talk about that or
demonstrate that in the uh withthe folks that are actually
delivering it.
So having solid information anda solid foundation to it, and

(01:10:13):
then having credible, competentpeople that who can who can
deliver it effectively, that'sthat's why I'm here.
That's why I believe in it.
That's why I'm I've invested thetime, energy, and and commitment
to it that I have.
And so that's one of the thingsthat actually makes me most
proud of it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:31):
Yeah, that that whole proof thing, you know,
Worcester Fire Department, GaryFleischer, right?
Like we got audio like fromthem, quite a bit of audio of
them utilizing the system.
Cobb County sends us somethingon the regular of them, right?
Typically it's a rescue orstrategic shift or something.

(01:10:52):
Kevin Alexander at Houston FireDepartment, you know, and his I
think when you got 88 battalionchiefs or whatever they have
there, it's really hard to turnthat ship of 4,500 people or
whatever, but he clearlyeverybody in his entire district
understands and and uses thesystem, right?
We've we've we've used thataudio.

(01:11:14):
The Lincoln, Nebraska folks, youknow, same thing.
Sean Glazer at Vandenberg, youknow, some of the best
residential audio we ever had.
And, you know, people laughlike, oh, Vandenberg Air Force
Base, whatever.
And it's like, no, they uh theycommitted to the system and they
use the system, and uh a housefire isn't a big deal when

(01:11:35):
you're used to fighting uhhundreds of thousands of acres
or whatever they how many everacre fires that they go to, you
know, regularly, and you know,applying the system to that as
well.
So yeah.
We're I think we're in aposition that we we validate and
vet the knowledge, skill, andability and credibility of the

(01:11:58):
people who are are deliveringthe program.
And all all of our leadinstructors are also committed
to being lifelong learnersbecause we we're constantly
updating and evolving andconnecting with them on uh what
we do and how we do it to makesure that it is meeting the
current standards and the needsof all the organizations out

(01:12:19):
there that that utilize thesystem.
So and none of us have thathoorah almightier than mighty
piece.
We want to train and educatepeople.
We don't need to be we don'tneed to yell at anybody in the
classroom to motivate them tocomplete and be successful with

(01:12:43):
with the blue card system.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:44):
There is a certain style of a blue card instructor
that that complements the entirepackage when it when it comes to
learning package, and yeah,definitely not not a revival.
This is not the revival.
Any final thoughts on this topicor anything that you want to
talk about today before we wrapit up and get to our timeless
tactical truth?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:05):
We can't be afraid of it.
We we cannot, we have to embracethe training and everything
that's going on around us.
Our participation, our vettingof the systems, and where we
send people will support theones that are doing a good job,
and it will cause the ones whoare not or or lack the the
foundation to to wither, right?

(01:13:27):
And that's kind of the that's athat's a free market system,
right?
And so let's let's support that.
And as organizations, we should.
Don't you fight against it, man.
You're you're you're fightingagainst the tide.
You you're not gonna win.
Figure out how to be successfulwith it and and integrate it,
and you'll you'll you'll end upwith better firefighters, and

(01:13:48):
you'll actually end up withfirefighters who are more
engaged and interested and don'tfeel like you're constantly
trying to undercut them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:55):
You guys have time for Timeless Tactical Truth?
Darn straight.
All right, let's do it.
Timeless Tactical Truth fromAlan Brunacini.
The Timeless Tactical Truthsbooks are available at
bshifter.com.
Get them now, and today'sTimeless Tactical Truth.

(01:14:16):
Something is wrong if you keepinheriting bad situations.
You will continue to be such arecipient until you fix what's
wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:27):
Well, I'm gonna say if you keep inheriting bad
situations, you need to look atwhat you what and how you are
training your folks.
Because if they are in aposition because you have bad
decisions because are badpositions because they're making
poor decisions, or they'reineffectively operating, or

(01:14:48):
they're they're conducting, youknow, they're working in an
unsafe manner, that's a youproblem.
That's an organization problem.
That's a that's a that's a bosslevel issue, right?
And that has to get fixed atyour level and down, right?
That the as Garrison will say,the fish stinks from the head
down, right?
So if that's an issue, thenyou've got to look at what are

(01:15:11):
we teaching?
How are we teaching it?
How are we reviewingperformance?
How are we correctingperformance?
And how are we, you know, kindof completing that circle and
and making sure that we're beingmore effective at talking about
when we do a good job versuswhen we aren't.
And so, so I I can't I think itwould be it would be poor of us

(01:15:35):
to actually look at this andsay, that's anything but a
leadership problem to beginwith.
And now you can have you canhave poor performers, but we
typically know how to work onthose poor poor performers
dealing with specific tasks.
But a lot of times, the the mostimportant tool that those bosses
should have is a mirror.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:52):
Well, guys, thanks for uh a great topic today.
And I think we'll probably havea part two at some point because
there's plenty more to talkabout, but just scratching the
surface.
We appreciate everyone listeningtoday to the V Shifter Podcast.
Hey, make sure again, subscribe,like it, share it with your
friends.
Until next time.
Thank you for listening.
We'll talk to you later.