March 1, 2025 • 33 mins
Join us for a discussion about options for euthanasia techniques and aftercare in small ruminants and other livestock species with Dr. Warren Hess, the assistant director of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA)'s Division of Animal and Public Health and AVMA's Disaster Coordinator.
In this episode, Dr. Hess discusses the results of a survey investigating veterinary knowledge surrounding safe carcass disposal after pentobarbital euthanasia. Dr. Hess highlights the concerns regarding pentobarbital use in livestock as it severely limits the disposal options that clients have. Animals that are euthanized using this very commonly used substance may not be used for rendering and burial may result in contamination of groundwater with this toxic compound. The AVMA and AASRP are working to expand veterinarians' understanding of alternative humane euthanasia techniques including gunshot or captive bolt (followed by secondary method) or magnesium sulfate injection. While intrathecal lidocane injection is not currently an approved method of euthanasia by AVMA, it is becoming more widely practiced by equine and food animal practitioners.
The publication describing the survey which is the focus of today's episode can be found here:
https://avmajournals.avma.org/view/journals/javma/261/11/javma.23.03.0161.xml
If your company or organization would like to sponsor an episode or if you have questions about today's show, please email Office@AASRP.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the next episode of AASRP's podcast,
(00:04):
Foz and Bleats.
Today we're talking to Dr.
Warren Hess.
Dr.
Hess is the associate directorand the disaster coordinator for
AVMA which is the American VetMed Association.
For my non vet listeners, let mejust give you a little blurb
about AVMA and Dr.
Hess.
Please.
add anything you want.
Basically, AVMA is kind of thebiggest organization in vet med.
(00:29):
A lot of us turn to AVMA forinsurance, lobbying best
practices.
A lot of times, if you have aquestion about anything, the AVM
website is super helpful hiring.
I mean, there's just so manythings that I've gone to AVMA,
for help.
I've been to lots of their CEmeetings, which are really good.
So they, they, lobbying is ahuge thing they do for us.
(00:50):
They protect the veterinaryinterest in in Washington.
So welcome, Dr.
Hess.
Thank you so much for being hereand chatting with us.
Warren (00:58):
Hey, thank you, Sarah.
I'm happy to be with you.
Sarah (01:02):
Great.
I always like to start witheverybody's history, kind of
where you went to school, howyou got to the place you're,
you're at.
Do you mind sharing with us alittle bit?
Warren (01:11):
Sure.
I am a Colorado State graduatefrom 1989.
That's a long time ago.
I practiced about 17 years inprivate practice, a small animal
and exotic focused, and and thenspent 11 years with the
Veterinarian State Office in thestate of Utah served various
(01:33):
roles there from a fieldveterinarian to assistant state
veterinarian to acting stateveterinarian for a year and a
half before I left and came towork for the AVMA.
I've been here about almost nineyears now and it's been great.
AVMA is a great organization towork for and to be a member of.
Sarah (01:55):
All right.
So did you do both yourundergrad and vet school at
Colorado?
Warren (02:00):
I actually did my undergrad at the University of
Utah and at Brigham YoungUniversity.
Sarah (02:07):
Okay.
Nice.
So today we're going to betalking to Dr.
Hess about his 2023 paperentitled Survey of Veterinarians
Who Use Pentobarbital forEuthanasia Suggests Knowledge
Gaps Regarding Animal Disposal.
This was published in theJournal of the JAVMA, we call it
the Journal of AVMA.
(02:28):
And the reason I asked Dr.
Hess here is this is just suchan important topic for those of
you who may or may not know, 50percent of my practice is in
home euthanasia for cats anddogs.
So between my large animal halfand that, I do a lot of end of
life consulting with people andall sorts of things.
So This topic is something Ispend a lot of time talking
(02:49):
about.
And I think it's reallyimportant for our listeners, not
only the veterinarians, but alsoour farmers and practitioners
and everybody out there to kindof hear this topic.
It's important for us asveterinarians, not only to be
stewards of our animals, butalso of the environment and the
stuff that we are activelyputting drugs out and into.
(03:10):
So I read this survey rightafter it came out And I just, I
think it's a really interestingtopic.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about how this survey came
about and what kind of initiatedthis?
Warren (03:22):
Sure, Sarah while I'm the corresponding author on this
document or sorry, we cut thatout on this article there are a
lot of other important, Peopleat ABMA and also I'll mention
some affiliation we had sogetting to your question as far
as how did this come about?
(03:43):
This has been many years in themaking back in about twenty
eighteen.
AVMA started corresponding withthe Renderers Association for
those that are listening thataren't familiar with Renderers
rendering companies take deadanimal carcasses and Process
(04:03):
them to further utilize thenutrients that could come from
those, and those are utilizedin, in various ways.
So the rendering companies cameto us and with the information
that they were running into someserious problems with some
residues from a drug agent thatwe use, pentobarbital, for
(04:26):
euthanasia.
And the FDA does not allow anylevel of pentobarbital in any
food item.
So, the even tiny amounts ofresidue that testing is very
sensitive now can pick upextremely small amounts of
(04:47):
pentobarbital.
These companies were findingthat in their products, they
were having to discard largeamounts of products, they were
having to completely clean theirwhole system out to try to, to
get rid of that.
It was costing some of thesecompanies.
You know, upwards of a milliondollars to purge their system
(05:12):
once it was detected, andthey're having to test on for
this on a regular basis.
Every batch they produce has tobe tested for for pentobarbital.
So discussions began back thenand have continued over the
years, and what that led to wasa grant that FDA put out and
(05:36):
AVMA was a sub awardee in thatgrant to look at trying to find
out what veterinarians knewabout pentobarbital residue
issues and what their And youknow, how they handled
euthanasias and disposals andthings like that, so that we
(05:57):
could get a better idea of maybewhere some of the problems are
and why some of the safeguardsthat have been put in place
aren't, aren't working the waythey need to.
Sarah (06:11):
I'm just wondering a little bit more, and I guess I
didn't tell you I was going toask you this, but about the
rendering.
Kind of across the countrybecause I mean, I grew up, this
was the nineties in the centralValley of California and a cow
would die and they would put itout by the road and the render
would come.
And then by the time I was inhigh school and college, that
was no longer a thing.
(06:32):
And here in Western New York, Idon't know anybody who renders.
I don't think any, any animalsgo to rendering, which I think
is kind of sad because I lovethe thought that every bit of
every animal gets used.
Which, you know, most dairy cowsthat pass here, get composted.
So is rendering kind ofdifferent laws in different
(06:54):
states?
Does it depend on where you livein that state?
Warren (06:58):
So, there's different types of rendering companies out
there that focus on certainthings.
So, for example, with slaughterplants that that process meat
for us.
The remnants from that, thebones and and so on that aren't
(07:19):
gonna be utilized for human foodare usually disposed of in, in
some method and in, in manyareas, certainly in the Midwest
and the west.
Rendering companies are stillused for those.
And they get a lot of productfrom that, and so they can
(07:40):
produce bone meal and thingslike that from the bones that,
uh, that are being that are notbeing used by the slaughter
company.
As far as whole dead animals,that Especially since 2018, that
has been decreasingsignificantly and many rendering
(08:02):
companies will only pick up deadanimals, whole dead carcasses
from some of these plants whenthe animals didn't make it into
the plant for whatever reason.
The Accepting or taking or evenpicking up animals from farms
has decreased dramatically.
Sarah (08:24):
And that's
Warren (08:24):
true across the country and is causing issues for a lot
of animal owners, especiallyequine owners who are trying to
find reasonable methods ofdisposing of their, of their
horses.
Sarah (08:42):
Know here.
And this is probably true acrossthe country.
There aren't a lot of optionsfor horse owners there.
One of my good friends does ahas a business transporting
deceased pets.
And, you know, they can go toCornell for cremation.
I think here, just south ofBuffalo, we have another place
that's set up that can cremateand they have one place that
(09:03):
buries.
So basically, if you don't knowsomeone who has a backhoe,
you're kind of in trouble.
And here, half the year, justlike where you live in Illinois
you know, the ground is frozen.
And so it makes it very, verydifficult.
Warren (09:17):
Yeah, you've got to have some pretty heavy duty hydraulic
equipment to break throughfrozen ground.
Sarah (09:23):
So jumping into the paper.
So you guys just kind of wantedto see how much people knew.
So you sent this survey out tokind of a select group of AVMA
members not the whole like 100,000
Warren (09:37):
We wanted to get representation from certain
segments of, of the veterinaryprofession.
Sarah (09:45):
And so you had, I don't know, is this a good response?
You had like, what was it?
2, 000 people.
Warren (09:51):
I think it was about a 12 percent response, if I recall
correctly, and for AVMA surveys,that's actually a pretty decent
we probably average about 9 to10 percent on most of our
surveys.
Sarah (10:06):
Okay, so about 2, 000 people responded and it was like
when you start looking at theresults there is a you know a
good I mean, obviously the mostare small animal, but that's the
most of veterinarians, but youknow The large animals even the
exotics as this is a SRP apretty good Showing from they
(10:26):
have it split where farm cervidsand camelids are one group and
sheep and goat are another.
Those are probably the samevets, but people could check
multiple boxes.
So and probably a lot of thosepeople are seeing cows also and
pigs.
So they probably overlap a bitthere too.
But so people responded and Imean, we don't need to go
(10:49):
distinctly into each question,but you know, the questions were
a lot about basically, what doyou know, like, what do you tell
people who you do euthanasiasfor?
What do you know is safe?
And it's not safe.
Warren (11:03):
Yeah, we wanted to, we wanted to get a broad idea about
the whole process of, from, fromthe point in time when a
decision is being made abouteuthanasia, all the way through
following through with thedisposal.
Aspects, what are veterinariansdoing?
What are their views on certainthings?
(11:25):
Because we, we knew that thatwas going to help us in future
educational efforts.
Sarah (11:33):
So tell us about the results.
I know the paper focuses on alot of things that's significant
and not significant, which isimportant, but was there stuff
you were really surprised about,was there stuff that you kind of
tracked, I mean, I don't wantto, you know, throw any
veterinarians under the bus hereof what we don't do and don't
know, but it's important topoint it out.
I think not many small animalvets probably think about this
(11:56):
because the pets just getcremated or people take them
home.
I don't think it's.
You know, and a 20 pound dog isnot going to pollute the ground
like a 2000 pound horse, right?
Warren (12:07):
Yeah, we weren't you know, terribly surprised by any
of the results.
I think they, they all madesense.
And we did find that smallanimal practitioners.
Had the least knowledge aboutthe effects of pentobarbital,
(12:27):
and had the least knowledgeabout a wide variety of disposal
techniques, like you indicatedprobably in most cases they're
sending out those to a crematoryprobably.
And or having owners bury theirown animals.
We also it wasn't surprising tous that practitioners that
(12:50):
practiced in, in real specificareas, so like the bovine
practitioners those thatpracticed equine medicine only
And you know poultryveterinarians, things like that,
that swine veterinarians.
In some of those practices,penobarbital is just not used at
(13:13):
all.
In other practices, it is used.
For example, in equine, it'sused still pretty heavily.
And the practitioners that onlypracticed equine medicine that
was their sole focus, tended tobe better educated on the
impacts of pentobarbital andbeing, having more of a system
(13:36):
in place to make sure that howthe animal was disposed of was,
was overseen correctly.
What a lot of small animalveterinarians and some of our
mixed animal veterinarians werethe next group next to the small
animal veterinarians who showedthat there was some education
that was, was still needed forthem.
(13:57):
So that was the real bottom lineof the, of the survey
information that we got was,there's a couple of targeted
areas of types of practitionersthat we need to especially focus
on getting further education outto them.
What's interesting about thesurvey to me is that.
(14:18):
We've identified a problem, butwe don't have a real clear
solution to the problem.
In other words, pentobarbital isgoing to continue to be used,
although in some species itmight decrease quite a bit over
time as other options becomeavailable.
But in small animal medicineit's probably not gonna change
(14:40):
anytime soon unless some otherchemical options come out.
And this study and somesubsequent studies that, that
are being done you know, mightdrive some people some of our
researchers into looking forother options.
Sarah (14:57):
That'd be amazing.
Yeah, I'm just going to take astep back.
One other thing with rendering.
One of the reason that we haveto be so careful, which people
may not know is that tons ofthat bone meal and stuff is
going into pet food.
And so a lot of times it's ourpets that if the pento barbital
gets through that it makes themsick.
(15:17):
And that almost never happens.
Cause like you said, there is.
It's so much testing, but it, ithas happened in the past.
And so it's very important thatwe work as a whole team from the
pet owner, the veterinarian tothe rendering plants, the
slaughter facilities to keep thepets safe.
So I just wanted to make surethat.
People understood thesignificance of there that it
(15:39):
doesn't, it doesn't go away inthe rendering process.
It can live through that.
So
Warren (15:45):
yeah, in the last, though, let's say 10, maybe
eight years, there's been anumber of situations where kind
of Barbara tall's gotten intopet food.
One of them, actually led to thedeath of some animals and that
didn't go through a renderingplant.
(16:05):
That was whole meat that somehowslipped through the safeguards
that are supposed to be there tomake sure that an animal that's
euthanized with pentobarbitaldoesn't get into any kind of a
food source.
Whether human or animal, andthat didn't happen in this case,
(16:26):
and it ended up.
Going into some dog food anddogs actually got enough of the
pentobarbital, they died fromit.
The cases where it's gonethrough a rendering plant those
cases animals did not get sick,but there were organizations out
(16:46):
there that were looking for itand testing the dog food and
have found it and as it was, wastraced back, it was traced back
to some of the renderingproducts.
So while it is a big problem forrenderers, you know, the chance
of an animal actually gettingsick or dying through a rendered
(17:07):
product is pretty low.
But it, we still need to solvethe problem with rendering.
Sarah (17:14):
Right, right.
And, I just had this thought, Iwonder, you know, there's such a
huge new movement in smallanimal food about with fresh
food, raw food, people makingtheir own food.
You know, that that worries methat like, you know, they'll get
animals from, unregulatedsources which would be the fear.
(17:37):
So beyond, you know, therendering being a huge, huge
deal.
The other real issue is theenvironmental impact of the
pentobarb in the ground andgetting into waterways.
And.
Also wildlife, right?
So these are some of the otherbig issues.
Warren (17:54):
Yes.
And there was actually acompanion article printed in
JAVMA prior to the one we'retalking about.
It was a literature review ofthe impacts of pentobarbital.
And pentobarbital does not breakdown.
No.
(18:15):
In animals or in the environmentand so it will maintain its, its
ability to produce the effectsthat it does for a long time.
I mean, everything eventuallybreaks down.
So when I say it doesn't breakdown, I mean, it takes years and
years and years forpentobarbital to break down.
(18:37):
And rendering temperatures,which tend to get up into like
the 140, 140 degree Fahrenheitrange, doesn't break it down
probably much higher does, youknow, the temperatures reached
in, in the cremation probablybreak it down pretty well, but
the temperatures reached in,composting, Don't break it down
(19:01):
either.
And so if there's large volumesof that, that can, that will
have impacts on local, microanimal life in the area in the
microbes, in the soils, if itleaks into waterways, it can
have impacts on aquatic life aswell.
Sarah (19:22):
Right.
Yeah.
So.
Besides furthering education,trying to get the word out,
talking to people about, youknow, how they bury their pets
the other push I know has beento try to get away from using
it, especially in the largeanimals as much as possible.
And I know there are options inlarge animal.
(19:44):
Not a lot.
There are some AVMA has a reallygood stuff on their website
about acceptable forms ofeuthanasia.
Obviously, you know, gunshotwound done correctly.
Um, captive bolt.
That's primarily what the swineindustry uses.
But one thing we've been reallypushing in the small ruminant
world, along with equine andother ones, is the intrathecal
(20:06):
lidocaine injection.
Warren (20:08):
And that's, you know, completely understandable.
You know, as you mentioned,gunshot captive bolts are, are,
are great methods, but there's alot of veterinarians out there
that refuse to use those.
In addition to probably mostowners don't want that method
used, although it's probably oneof the most effective and
(20:32):
cleanest ways to go as far asenvironmental impact when I say
cleanest.
Sarah (20:38):
And I would add it's very humane.
Warren (20:41):
Yes.
In the, in the proper hands,it's very humane.
And so if there's some ownersout there listening that would
even consider it and yourveterinarian offers that as, as
a method, I would Suggest youconsider that and, aside from
costs and everything I ownedhorses for a lot of years, And I
(21:02):
would use captive bolt on myhorses when I put them down, And
That was the, the method Ipreferred had far fewer problems
than trying to inject thepentobarbital in them which led
to, you know, you don't see alot of problems with that, but
you do see some and see morewith that, with pentobarbital
(21:25):
actually than you do withgunshot or captive bull.
Sarah (21:28):
I had a goat client, just as an example, reach out to me.
They had a horse that was downand needed to be euthanized.
And it was like.
They live in the middle ofnowhere.
It was a huge snow storm.
They know they didn't have aregular vet.
I don't know.
And they're just like, I don'tknow what to do.
And I was like, I know you hunt,why don't you just shoot it and
put it out of your misery?
(21:49):
And she literally acted likeshe'd never heard that as an
option for a horse.
And I was like, I know yourhusband can do this.
Like, I don't understand whyyou're hesitating.
And she's just like.
It never crossed my mind.
I never would have thought ofdoing that to my own horse.
And I'm just like, but like as ahunter, you know, it's humane,
right?
You know that it's fast and it'seasy and it's, you know, and
(22:13):
like, I could tell, I just likelifted this huge burden off her
shoulder to put it as a way thatshe, her and her husband could
do it themselves.
It wasn't.
It wasn't unkind to the horseand this horse was already down.
So it wasn't even going to fallor anything.
And you know, I just, I think inthe pet world, it's just, it's
(22:33):
such a different thought processfor sure.
Yeah.
And then I don't know a betteroption in small animal.
You know, when you areeuthanizing cats and dogs, and
especially I live in a veryrural part of New York.
I don't know exactly how to keepit out of the ground with these.
(22:53):
I don't know if you have anysuggestions.
You know, I talked to them aboutburying it super deep, not going
anywhere near waterways.
Are there any, does AV may haveany other suggestions for those
kind of scenarios?
Warren (23:06):
Well, for the veterinarians listening, I think
it's important that we remindourselves that we are
responsible for the impacts ofthat drug that we put into that
animal, even after it leaves ouroffice.
So, we need to be doing our bestto make sure that if clients are
(23:28):
taking animals home to disposeof, that they have a very clear
understanding and that you trustthem as a client to follow your
directions.
You know, the, we, we see thecases where they take them home
and they you know, they're goingto get to it and Something comes
up and the animal's out therefor three or four days before
(23:48):
they can get it buried.
And by that time birds of preyor other carnivores have come in
and attacked it.
And you know, so we get thatimpact.
The other thing I would say isthat the total pentobarbital
burden through all the smallanimals that get put down.
(24:09):
Get euthanized with kind of ourorbital is probably much greater
if all that went into theenvironment than it is for the
horses that get.
that get euthanized just becauseyou've got so many more small
animals pets where that'shappening.
So from a pet perspective, ifpentobarbital is going to be
(24:31):
used, and I'm sure it will be,uh, it's probably just one more
reason to encourage your clientsto consider cremation for their
animals rather than burial.
Sarah (24:44):
Right.
Right.
Agreed.
Yeah.
And I mean, there, All the newoptions, like water cremation
and stuff like that are great.
They're just still so pricey.
But it's, it's definitely hardfor some of our clients.
Do you know, off the top of yourhead, does AVMA have a printable
form that small animal or evensmall ruminant vets could send
(25:08):
home with owners?
I'm talking about the proper wayto dispose and the environmental
impact, like something that'sjust printable.
Warren (25:15):
We're actually working on that.
Both, both basically cards thatcould, that the veterinarians
could use for themselves andalso client material to take
home when we we hope that laterthis year we'll have those
available.
Sarah (25:32):
I think that would be a good asset.
And That's something I probablyshould add to my small ruminant
practice because I, or my, my inhome euthanasia practice,
because I do, I always talk tothem if they're not, if I'm not
taking the pet to the crematory,I always talk to them about, you
know, appropriate and stuff, buteven doing it appropriately,
you're still doing it.
(25:53):
You're still putting it into theground.
You still are knowinglypolluting.
And I know one of the questionson the survey was, As a
veterinarian, do you know statelaws?
Do you know federal laws?
Well, it's really hard to knowthat because they're really,
really hard to find.
And it's not even state andcounty.
Sometimes it's like localdistricts.
(26:14):
It's all different.
And so when people ask me, is itlegal to bury where I live?
And I'm like, I don't even knowbecause I have tried and tried
and tried to look and educatemyself and it's next to
impossible to find it online.
I mean, maybe if you startedcalling offices, but to find the
person that knows, I think wouldeven be hard.
Warren (26:34):
You're absolutely right.
And, you know, even when you getdown to the local level it's
going to probably depend on, onthe size of the lot you're on
how it's zoned, and how manyanimals might be approved, you
know.
Be approved to be buried in onthat lot over a certain period
(26:55):
of time.
So it, it gets reallycomplicated, really fast.
And it's, it's not somethingthat the veterinarian can keep
up on than to know where to helpto point the client for some
better information.
And we're trying to, we'retrying to do our best to make
that a little bit easier.
Sarah (27:15):
Great.
Great.
Yeah.
Keep us posted.
All right.
We didn't talk a huge amountabout the survey.
I kind of just wanted to delveinto this topic in general.
And the survey is just such agood way to start conversation
and realize that we don't knowwhat we don't know.
Right?
And I know, I know the DEA ispushing for more CE.
(27:36):
That's more on the opiate side.
It'd be nice if, you know, itwould, this would be included.
But was there anything else fromthe survey or from this topic at
all that you think needs to beaddressed?
Warren (27:49):
I don't think so.
I, I think just talking about itbringing it out in the open
Letting people know we don'thave all the answers yet, but
that doesn't mean we need to,you know, we need to hide the
issue.
Let's talk about it.
Clients know what we know, whatwe don't know, and hopefully
(28:13):
that can spur some more researchon and, you know, help us all
out no matter, no matter whatarea we might be concerned about
as far as the impacts of thesedrugs that, that might have on
the environment, on otheranimals that might come in
contact with them, you know, inan unintended method.
Sarah (28:35):
Right.
Yeah.
The last thing you want to do isbury your goat improperly and
have your neighbor's dog die.
Nobody wants that.
Well, Dr.
Hess, I really appreciate youbeing here.
And I don't know if you read myfinal question.
It doesn't apply to you as muchas the other people.
But I think we definitely Youknow, you've kind of already
touched on some stuff.
(28:55):
So my normal final question is,what do you see is the next
problem that researchers need tothink about and address in small
ruminant medicine?
And, you know, definitely.
It can be in this line thatwe're talking today, but what,
what do we need to look at whoneeds, where do we need to throw
some research money?
Warren (29:12):
Hey, I'll I'll tell you what I think just because of one
of my titles is disastercoordinator for, for AVMA and we
need to find better informationand better options for, Small
hobby farmers, which is probablythe bulk of, of, of your
clients, I would guess what theycan do to better prepare for
(29:36):
disasters and not be, not betotally unprepared on what they
can do, you know, what What dothey need to consider if a
wildfire were to come upon theirarea which can be some of the
really short notice type stuffwhere you don't have a lot of
(29:59):
time, um, hurricanes, youtypically have a few days, if
not a week or so to, to.
Get prepared, but there's,there's, there needs to be
better information betterstudies done, better research on
how we can help these hobbyfarms be better prepared because
(30:22):
they frequently are, are foundin the group that aren't
prepared when they have toevacuate.
Sarah (30:30):
It scares me when I have clients who can't transport
their own animals.
It's one thing if you have 5,000 cows, but if you have six
goats, you need to have a way tomove them.
Warren (30:39):
That's right.
And that, that, that is one ofthe biggest factors of just
having transportation, but Alsohaving the animals accustomed to
being transported is, is anotherbig thing and being able to get
them loaded in a trailer whenthings are crazy, when there's a
smell of smoke in the air, forexample, and a lot of animals
(31:01):
are, are pretty unsettled withthat.
It's, it's not your everydaycalm.
Load an animal in a trailerprocess.
Sarah (31:11):
Yeah, that's a really good, really good point.
Well again, I thank you so much.
This is a little bit differentof a podcast for us, but I think
it's important topic.
I think it's important for ourveterinarians to hear.
It's important for our producersto hear.
So, like I said, if you need tolearn a new euthanasia method,
don't be scared.
(31:32):
Maybe AASRP needs to do awebinar on this.
I think that'd be a good topic.
I think it's something that wereally need to push.
I know the equine world has beenreally working on it.
And I'm one of thosepractitioners not willing to
carry a gun.
So maybe I need to think aboutthat too.
All right, well, thank youagain.
And I think with that, we aredone for this month.
Thanks guys.
Warren (31:54):
Thanks Sarah.
Hello, and welcome to the next episode of AASRP's podcast,
(00:04):
Foz and Bleats.
Today we're talking to Dr.
Warren Hess.
Dr.
Hess is the associate directorand the disaster coordinator for
AVMA which is the American VetMed Association.
For my non vet listeners, let mejust give you a little blurb
about AVMA and Dr.
Hess.
Please.
add anything you want.
Basically, AVMA is kind of thebiggest organization in vet med.
(00:29):
A lot of us turn to AVMA forinsurance, lobbying best
practices.
A lot of times, if you have aquestion about anything, the AVM
website is super helpful hiring.
I mean, there's just so manythings that I've gone to AVMA,
for help.
I've been to lots of their CEmeetings, which are really good.
So they, they, lobbying is ahuge thing they do for us.
(00:50):
They protect the veterinaryinterest in in Washington.
So welcome, Dr.
Hess.
Thank you so much for being hereand chatting with us.
Warren (00:58):
Hey, thank you, Sarah.
I'm happy to be with you.
Sarah (01:02):
Great.
I always like to start witheverybody's history, kind of
where you went to school, howyou got to the place you're,
you're at.
Do you mind sharing with us alittle bit?
Warren (01:11):
Sure.
I am a Colorado State graduatefrom 1989.
That's a long time ago.
I practiced about 17 years inprivate practice, a small animal
and exotic focused, and and thenspent 11 years with the
Veterinarian State Office in thestate of Utah served various
(01:33):
roles there from a fieldveterinarian to assistant state
veterinarian to acting stateveterinarian for a year and a
half before I left and came towork for the AVMA.
I've been here about almost nineyears now and it's been great.
AVMA is a great organization towork for and to be a member of.
Sarah (01:55):
All right.
So did you do both yourundergrad and vet school at
Colorado?
Warren (02:00):
I actually did my undergrad at the University of
Utah and at Brigham YoungUniversity.
Sarah (02:07):
Okay.
Nice.
So today we're going to betalking to Dr.
Hess about his 2023 paperentitled Survey of Veterinarians
Who Use Pentobarbital forEuthanasia Suggests Knowledge
Gaps Regarding Animal Disposal.
This was published in theJournal of the JAVMA, we call it
the Journal of AVMA.
(02:28):
And the reason I asked Dr.
Hess here is this is just suchan important topic for those of
you who may or may not know, 50percent of my practice is in
home euthanasia for cats anddogs.
So between my large animal halfand that, I do a lot of end of
life consulting with people andall sorts of things.
So This topic is something Ispend a lot of time talking
(02:49):
about.
And I think it's reallyimportant for our listeners, not
only the veterinarians, but alsoour farmers and practitioners
and everybody out there to kindof hear this topic.
It's important for us asveterinarians, not only to be
stewards of our animals, butalso of the environment and the
stuff that we are activelyputting drugs out and into.
(03:10):
So I read this survey rightafter it came out And I just, I
think it's a really interestingtopic.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about how this survey came
about and what kind of initiatedthis?
Warren (03:22):
Sure, Sarah while I'm the corresponding author on this
document or sorry, we cut thatout on this article there are a
lot of other important, Peopleat ABMA and also I'll mention
some affiliation we had sogetting to your question as far
as how did this come about?
(03:43):
This has been many years in themaking back in about twenty
eighteen.
AVMA started corresponding withthe Renderers Association for
those that are listening thataren't familiar with Renderers
rendering companies take deadanimal carcasses and Process
(04:03):
them to further utilize thenutrients that could come from
those, and those are utilizedin, in various ways.
So the rendering companies cameto us and with the information
that they were running into someserious problems with some
residues from a drug agent thatwe use, pentobarbital, for
(04:26):
euthanasia.
And the FDA does not allow anylevel of pentobarbital in any
food item.
So, the even tiny amounts ofresidue that testing is very
sensitive now can pick upextremely small amounts of
(04:47):
pentobarbital.
These companies were findingthat in their products, they
were having to discard largeamounts of products, they were
having to completely clean theirwhole system out to try to, to
get rid of that.
It was costing some of thesecompanies.
You know, upwards of a milliondollars to purge their system
(05:12):
once it was detected, andthey're having to test on for
this on a regular basis.
Every batch they produce has tobe tested for for pentobarbital.
So discussions began back thenand have continued over the
years, and what that led to wasa grant that FDA put out and
(05:36):
AVMA was a sub awardee in thatgrant to look at trying to find
out what veterinarians knewabout pentobarbital residue
issues and what their And youknow, how they handled
euthanasias and disposals andthings like that, so that we
(05:57):
could get a better idea of maybewhere some of the problems are
and why some of the safeguardsthat have been put in place
aren't, aren't working the waythey need to.
Sarah (06:11):
I'm just wondering a little bit more, and I guess I
didn't tell you I was going toask you this, but about the
rendering.
Kind of across the countrybecause I mean, I grew up, this
was the nineties in the centralValley of California and a cow
would die and they would put itout by the road and the render
would come.
And then by the time I was inhigh school and college, that
was no longer a thing.
(06:32):
And here in Western New York, Idon't know anybody who renders.
I don't think any, any animalsgo to rendering, which I think
is kind of sad because I lovethe thought that every bit of
every animal gets used.
Which, you know, most dairy cowsthat pass here, get composted.
So is rendering kind ofdifferent laws in different
(06:54):
states?
Does it depend on where you livein that state?
Warren (06:58):
So, there's different types of rendering companies out
there that focus on certainthings.
So, for example, with slaughterplants that that process meat
for us.
The remnants from that, thebones and and so on that aren't
(07:19):
gonna be utilized for human foodare usually disposed of in, in
some method and in, in manyareas, certainly in the Midwest
and the west.
Rendering companies are stillused for those.
And they get a lot of productfrom that, and so they can
(07:40):
produce bone meal and thingslike that from the bones that,
uh, that are being that are notbeing used by the slaughter
company.
As far as whole dead animals,that Especially since 2018, that
has been decreasingsignificantly and many rendering
(08:02):
companies will only pick up deadanimals, whole dead carcasses
from some of these plants whenthe animals didn't make it into
the plant for whatever reason.
The Accepting or taking or evenpicking up animals from farms
has decreased dramatically.
Sarah (08:24):
And that's
Warren (08:24):
true across the country and is causing issues for a lot
of animal owners, especiallyequine owners who are trying to
find reasonable methods ofdisposing of their, of their
horses.
Sarah (08:42):
Know here.
And this is probably true acrossthe country.
There aren't a lot of optionsfor horse owners there.
One of my good friends does ahas a business transporting
deceased pets.
And, you know, they can go toCornell for cremation.
I think here, just south ofBuffalo, we have another place
that's set up that can cremateand they have one place that
(09:03):
buries.
So basically, if you don't knowsomeone who has a backhoe,
you're kind of in trouble.
And here, half the year, justlike where you live in Illinois
you know, the ground is frozen.
And so it makes it very, verydifficult.
Warren (09:17):
Yeah, you've got to have some pretty heavy duty hydraulic
equipment to break throughfrozen ground.
Sarah (09:23):
So jumping into the paper.
So you guys just kind of wantedto see how much people knew.
So you sent this survey out tokind of a select group of AVMA
members not the whole like 100,000
Warren (09:37):
We wanted to get representation from certain
segments of, of the veterinaryprofession.
Sarah (09:45):
And so you had, I don't know, is this a good response?
You had like, what was it?
2, 000 people.
Warren (09:51):
I think it was about a 12 percent response, if I recall
correctly, and for AVMA surveys,that's actually a pretty decent
we probably average about 9 to10 percent on most of our
surveys.
Sarah (10:06):
Okay, so about 2, 000 people responded and it was like
when you start looking at theresults there is a you know a
good I mean, obviously the mostare small animal, but that's the
most of veterinarians, but youknow The large animals even the
exotics as this is a SRP apretty good Showing from they
(10:26):
have it split where farm cervidsand camelids are one group and
sheep and goat are another.
Those are probably the samevets, but people could check
multiple boxes.
So and probably a lot of thosepeople are seeing cows also and
pigs.
So they probably overlap a bitthere too.
But so people responded and Imean, we don't need to go
(10:49):
distinctly into each question,but you know, the questions were
a lot about basically, what doyou know, like, what do you tell
people who you do euthanasiasfor?
What do you know is safe?
And it's not safe.
Warren (11:03):
Yeah, we wanted to, we wanted to get a broad idea about
the whole process of, from, fromthe point in time when a
decision is being made abouteuthanasia, all the way through
following through with thedisposal.
Aspects, what are veterinariansdoing?
What are their views on certainthings?
(11:25):
Because we, we knew that thatwas going to help us in future
educational efforts.
Sarah (11:33):
So tell us about the results.
I know the paper focuses on alot of things that's significant
and not significant, which isimportant, but was there stuff
you were really surprised about,was there stuff that you kind of
tracked, I mean, I don't wantto, you know, throw any
veterinarians under the bus hereof what we don't do and don't
know, but it's important topoint it out.
I think not many small animalvets probably think about this
(11:56):
because the pets just getcremated or people take them
home.
I don't think it's.
You know, and a 20 pound dog isnot going to pollute the ground
like a 2000 pound horse, right?
Warren (12:07):
Yeah, we weren't you know, terribly surprised by any
of the results.
I think they, they all madesense.
And we did find that smallanimal practitioners.
Had the least knowledge aboutthe effects of pentobarbital,
(12:27):
and had the least knowledgeabout a wide variety of disposal
techniques, like you indicatedprobably in most cases they're
sending out those to a crematoryprobably.
And or having owners bury theirown animals.
We also it wasn't surprising tous that practitioners that
(12:50):
practiced in, in real specificareas, so like the bovine
practitioners those thatpracticed equine medicine only
And you know poultryveterinarians, things like that,
that swine veterinarians.
In some of those practices,penobarbital is just not used at
(13:13):
all.
In other practices, it is used.
For example, in equine, it'sused still pretty heavily.
And the practitioners that onlypracticed equine medicine that
was their sole focus, tended tobe better educated on the
impacts of pentobarbital andbeing, having more of a system
(13:36):
in place to make sure that howthe animal was disposed of was,
was overseen correctly.
What a lot of small animalveterinarians and some of our
mixed animal veterinarians werethe next group next to the small
animal veterinarians who showedthat there was some education
that was, was still needed forthem.
(13:57):
So that was the real bottom lineof the, of the survey
information that we got was,there's a couple of targeted
areas of types of practitionersthat we need to especially focus
on getting further education outto them.
What's interesting about thesurvey to me is that.
(14:18):
We've identified a problem, butwe don't have a real clear
solution to the problem.
In other words, pentobarbital isgoing to continue to be used,
although in some species itmight decrease quite a bit over
time as other options becomeavailable.
But in small animal medicineit's probably not gonna change
(14:40):
anytime soon unless some otherchemical options come out.
And this study and somesubsequent studies that, that
are being done you know, mightdrive some people some of our
researchers into looking forother options.
Sarah (14:57):
That'd be amazing.
Yeah, I'm just going to take astep back.
One other thing with rendering.
One of the reason that we haveto be so careful, which people
may not know is that tons ofthat bone meal and stuff is
going into pet food.
And so a lot of times it's ourpets that if the pento barbital
gets through that it makes themsick.
(15:17):
And that almost never happens.
Cause like you said, there is.
It's so much testing, but it, ithas happened in the past.
And so it's very important thatwe work as a whole team from the
pet owner, the veterinarian tothe rendering plants, the
slaughter facilities to keep thepets safe.
So I just wanted to make surethat.
People understood thesignificance of there that it
(15:39):
doesn't, it doesn't go away inthe rendering process.
It can live through that.
So
Warren (15:45):
yeah, in the last, though, let's say 10, maybe
eight years, there's been anumber of situations where kind
of Barbara tall's gotten intopet food.
One of them, actually led to thedeath of some animals and that
didn't go through a renderingplant.
(16:05):
That was whole meat that somehowslipped through the safeguards
that are supposed to be there tomake sure that an animal that's
euthanized with pentobarbitaldoesn't get into any kind of a
food source.
Whether human or animal, andthat didn't happen in this case,
(16:26):
and it ended up.
Going into some dog food anddogs actually got enough of the
pentobarbital, they died fromit.
The cases where it's gonethrough a rendering plant those
cases animals did not get sick,but there were organizations out
(16:46):
there that were looking for itand testing the dog food and
have found it and as it was, wastraced back, it was traced back
to some of the renderingproducts.
So while it is a big problem forrenderers, you know, the chance
of an animal actually gettingsick or dying through a rendered
(17:07):
product is pretty low.
But it, we still need to solvethe problem with rendering.
Sarah (17:14):
Right, right.
And, I just had this thought, Iwonder, you know, there's such a
huge new movement in smallanimal food about with fresh
food, raw food, people makingtheir own food.
You know, that that worries methat like, you know, they'll get
animals from, unregulatedsources which would be the fear.
(17:37):
So beyond, you know, therendering being a huge, huge
deal.
The other real issue is theenvironmental impact of the
pentobarb in the ground andgetting into waterways.
And.
Also wildlife, right?
So these are some of the otherbig issues.
Warren (17:54):
Yes.
And there was actually acompanion article printed in
JAVMA prior to the one we'retalking about.
It was a literature review ofthe impacts of pentobarbital.
And pentobarbital does not breakdown.
No.
(18:15):
In animals or in the environmentand so it will maintain its, its
ability to produce the effectsthat it does for a long time.
I mean, everything eventuallybreaks down.
So when I say it doesn't breakdown, I mean, it takes years and
years and years forpentobarbital to break down.
(18:37):
And rendering temperatures,which tend to get up into like
the 140, 140 degree Fahrenheitrange, doesn't break it down
probably much higher does, youknow, the temperatures reached
in, in the cremation probablybreak it down pretty well, but
the temperatures reached in,composting, Don't break it down
(19:01):
either.
And so if there's large volumesof that, that can, that will
have impacts on local, microanimal life in the area in the
microbes, in the soils, if itleaks into waterways, it can
have impacts on aquatic life aswell.
Sarah (19:22):
Right.
Yeah.
So.
Besides furthering education,trying to get the word out,
talking to people about, youknow, how they bury their pets
the other push I know has beento try to get away from using
it, especially in the largeanimals as much as possible.
And I know there are options inlarge animal.
(19:44):
Not a lot.
There are some AVMA has a reallygood stuff on their website
about acceptable forms ofeuthanasia.
Obviously, you know, gunshotwound done correctly.
Um, captive bolt.
That's primarily what the swineindustry uses.
But one thing we've been reallypushing in the small ruminant
world, along with equine andother ones, is the intrathecal
(20:06):
lidocaine injection.
Warren (20:08):
And that's, you know, completely understandable.
You know, as you mentioned,gunshot captive bolts are, are,
are great methods, but there's alot of veterinarians out there
that refuse to use those.
In addition to probably mostowners don't want that method
used, although it's probably oneof the most effective and
(20:32):
cleanest ways to go as far asenvironmental impact when I say
cleanest.
Sarah (20:38):
And I would add it's very humane.
Warren (20:41):
Yes.
In the, in the proper hands,it's very humane.
And so if there's some ownersout there listening that would
even consider it and yourveterinarian offers that as, as
a method, I would Suggest youconsider that and, aside from
costs and everything I ownedhorses for a lot of years, And I
(21:02):
would use captive bolt on myhorses when I put them down, And
That was the, the method Ipreferred had far fewer problems
than trying to inject thepentobarbital in them which led
to, you know, you don't see alot of problems with that, but
you do see some and see morewith that, with pentobarbital
(21:25):
actually than you do withgunshot or captive bull.
Sarah (21:28):
I had a goat client, just as an example, reach out to me.
They had a horse that was downand needed to be euthanized.
And it was like.
They live in the middle ofnowhere.
It was a huge snow storm.
They know they didn't have aregular vet.
I don't know.
And they're just like, I don'tknow what to do.
And I was like, I know you hunt,why don't you just shoot it and
put it out of your misery?
(21:49):
And she literally acted likeshe'd never heard that as an
option for a horse.
And I was like, I know yourhusband can do this.
Like, I don't understand whyyou're hesitating.
And she's just like.
It never crossed my mind.
I never would have thought ofdoing that to my own horse.
And I'm just like, but like as ahunter, you know, it's humane,
right?
You know that it's fast and it'seasy and it's, you know, and
(22:13):
like, I could tell, I just likelifted this huge burden off her
shoulder to put it as a way thatshe, her and her husband could
do it themselves.
It wasn't.
It wasn't unkind to the horseand this horse was already down.
So it wasn't even going to fallor anything.
And you know, I just, I think inthe pet world, it's just, it's
(22:33):
such a different thought processfor sure.
Yeah.
And then I don't know a betteroption in small animal.
You know, when you areeuthanizing cats and dogs, and
especially I live in a veryrural part of New York.
I don't know exactly how to keepit out of the ground with these.
(22:53):
I don't know if you have anysuggestions.
You know, I talked to them aboutburying it super deep, not going
anywhere near waterways.
Are there any, does AV may haveany other suggestions for those
kind of scenarios?
Warren (23:06):
Well, for the veterinarians listening, I think
it's important that we remindourselves that we are
responsible for the impacts ofthat drug that we put into that
animal, even after it leaves ouroffice.
So, we need to be doing our bestto make sure that if clients are
(23:28):
taking animals home to disposeof, that they have a very clear
understanding and that you trustthem as a client to follow your
directions.
You know, the, we, we see thecases where they take them home
and they you know, they're goingto get to it and Something comes
up and the animal's out therefor three or four days before
(23:48):
they can get it buried.
And by that time birds of preyor other carnivores have come in
and attacked it.
And you know, so we get thatimpact.
The other thing I would say isthat the total pentobarbital
burden through all the smallanimals that get put down.
(24:09):
Get euthanized with kind of ourorbital is probably much greater
if all that went into theenvironment than it is for the
horses that get.
that get euthanized just becauseyou've got so many more small
animals pets where that'shappening.
So from a pet perspective, ifpentobarbital is going to be
(24:31):
used, and I'm sure it will be,uh, it's probably just one more
reason to encourage your clientsto consider cremation for their
animals rather than burial.
Sarah (24:44):
Right.
Right.
Agreed.
Yeah.
And I mean, there, All the newoptions, like water cremation
and stuff like that are great.
They're just still so pricey.
But it's, it's definitely hardfor some of our clients.
Do you know, off the top of yourhead, does AVMA have a printable
form that small animal or evensmall ruminant vets could send
(25:08):
home with owners?
I'm talking about the proper wayto dispose and the environmental
impact, like something that'sjust printable.
Warren (25:15):
We're actually working on that.
Both, both basically cards thatcould, that the veterinarians
could use for themselves andalso client material to take
home when we we hope that laterthis year we'll have those
available.
Sarah (25:32):
I think that would be a good asset.
And That's something I probablyshould add to my small ruminant
practice because I, or my, my inhome euthanasia practice,
because I do, I always talk tothem if they're not, if I'm not
taking the pet to the crematory,I always talk to them about, you
know, appropriate and stuff, buteven doing it appropriately,
you're still doing it.
(25:53):
You're still putting it into theground.
You still are knowinglypolluting.
And I know one of the questionson the survey was, As a
veterinarian, do you know statelaws?
Do you know federal laws?
Well, it's really hard to knowthat because they're really,
really hard to find.
And it's not even state andcounty.
Sometimes it's like localdistricts.
(26:14):
It's all different.
And so when people ask me, is itlegal to bury where I live?
And I'm like, I don't even knowbecause I have tried and tried
and tried to look and educatemyself and it's next to
impossible to find it online.
I mean, maybe if you startedcalling offices, but to find the
person that knows, I think wouldeven be hard.
Warren (26:34):
You're absolutely right.
And, you know, even when you getdown to the local level it's
going to probably depend on, onthe size of the lot you're on
how it's zoned, and how manyanimals might be approved, you
know.
Be approved to be buried in onthat lot over a certain period
(26:55):
of time.
So it, it gets reallycomplicated, really fast.
And it's, it's not somethingthat the veterinarian can keep
up on than to know where to helpto point the client for some
better information.
And we're trying to, we'retrying to do our best to make
that a little bit easier.
Sarah (27:15):
Great.
Great.
Yeah.
Keep us posted.
All right.
We didn't talk a huge amountabout the survey.
I kind of just wanted to delveinto this topic in general.
And the survey is just such agood way to start conversation
and realize that we don't knowwhat we don't know.
Right?
And I know, I know the DEA ispushing for more CE.
(27:36):
That's more on the opiate side.
It'd be nice if, you know, itwould, this would be included.
But was there anything else fromthe survey or from this topic at
all that you think needs to beaddressed?
Warren (27:49):
I don't think so.
I, I think just talking about itbringing it out in the open
Letting people know we don'thave all the answers yet, but
that doesn't mean we need to,you know, we need to hide the
issue.
Let's talk about it.
Clients know what we know, whatwe don't know, and hopefully
(28:13):
that can spur some more researchon and, you know, help us all
out no matter, no matter whatarea we might be concerned about
as far as the impacts of thesedrugs that, that might have on
the environment, on otheranimals that might come in
contact with them, you know, inan unintended method.
Sarah (28:35):
Right.
Yeah.
The last thing you want to do isbury your goat improperly and
have your neighbor's dog die.
Nobody wants that.
Well, Dr.
Hess, I really appreciate youbeing here.
And I don't know if you read myfinal question.
It doesn't apply to you as muchas the other people.
But I think we definitely Youknow, you've kind of already
touched on some stuff.
(28:55):
So my normal final question is,what do you see is the next
problem that researchers need tothink about and address in small
ruminant medicine?
And, you know, definitely.
It can be in this line thatwe're talking today, but what,
what do we need to look at whoneeds, where do we need to throw
some research money?
Warren (29:12):
Hey, I'll I'll tell you what I think just because of one
of my titles is disastercoordinator for, for AVMA and we
need to find better informationand better options for, Small
hobby farmers, which is probablythe bulk of, of, of your
clients, I would guess what theycan do to better prepare for
(29:36):
disasters and not be, not betotally unprepared on what they
can do, you know, what What dothey need to consider if a
wildfire were to come upon theirarea which can be some of the
really short notice type stuffwhere you don't have a lot of
(29:59):
time, um, hurricanes, youtypically have a few days, if
not a week or so to, to.
Get prepared, but there's,there's, there needs to be
better information betterstudies done, better research on
how we can help these hobbyfarms be better prepared because
(30:22):
they frequently are, are foundin the group that aren't
prepared when they have toevacuate.
Sarah (30:30):
It scares me when I have clients who can't transport
their own animals.
It's one thing if you have 5,000 cows, but if you have six
goats, you need to have a way tomove them.
Warren (30:39):
That's right.
And that, that, that is one ofthe biggest factors of just
having transportation, but Alsohaving the animals accustomed to
being transported is, is anotherbig thing and being able to get
them loaded in a trailer whenthings are crazy, when there's a
smell of smoke in the air, forexample, and a lot of animals
(31:01):
are, are pretty unsettled withthat.
It's, it's not your everydaycalm.
Load an animal in a trailerprocess.
Sarah (31:11):
Yeah, that's a really good, really good point.
Well again, I thank you so much.
This is a little bit differentof a podcast for us, but I think
it's important topic.
I think it's important for ourveterinarians to hear.
It's important for our producersto hear.
So, like I said, if you need tolearn a new euthanasia method,
don't be scared.
(31:32):
Maybe AASRP needs to do awebinar on this.
I think that'd be a good topic.
I think it's something that wereally need to push.
I know the equine world has beenreally working on it.
And I'm one of thosepractitioners not willing to
carry a gun.
So maybe I need to think aboutthat too.
All right, well, thank youagain.
And I think with that, we aredone for this month.
Thanks guys.
Warren (31:54):
Thanks Sarah.
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