Does everyone have addictions?

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📚 Summary

DOWNLOAD "THE POWER OF TOO MUCH," our FREE modern-day grimoire that helps you reclaim your intensity, your magic, and your voice: https://babephilosophy.com📚 SUMMARYFacing Addictions: Our Personal Stories and Strategies for Healing | Babe PhilosophyIn this episode of Babe Philosophy, Meli and Liv dive deep into the complex topic of addiction. They candidly share their personal experiences with various addictions, from gum chewing and food to sex and ketamine. The conversation explores the roots of addiction, the patterns of behavior that signal addictive tendencies, and the crucial steps for managing and healing from these dependencies. They emphasize the importance of self-trust, understanding one's why, and finding personal motivation for lasting change. Join the discussion and learn about the tools and strategies they are using to navigate their own journeys towards a healthier, addiction-free life.

⌛ Chapters

00:00 Dope Offers for You02:05 Introduction and Spiritual Investors Club05:32 Defining Addiction15:56 Personal Addiction Stories29:41 Addiction Stories: Gum and Anxiety31:35 Struggles with Food Addiction34:20 Ketamine: A Double-Edged Sword42:20 Navigating and Managing Addictions43:27 Finding Your Why and Self-Trust57:37 The Complexity of Addiction59:04 Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts

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Episode Transcript

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We have created a society that requires us to have addictions.

(02:12):
We have to cope. We have to cope because the pace
of life is too fast, too fast, the distance that we are from
nature, the cement that we're walking on, the artificial.
Art of substances. The food like substances that we
interact with on a daily basis, like we are constantly
overstimulated by phone noise, you know?

(02:34):
How much we're expected to toxins?
Yeah, work. We have created a world of.
Overwhelm. Of overwhelm and it begs for
coping strategies which are addictions.
This is Babe philosophy. A podcast where questions matter
more than answers, where liminalspaces are revered, and where

(02:58):
magic is practical. We are your hosts, Mellie Wolf,
and live wickedly. Welcome back to Babe Philosophy,
smelly and live here again to chat about something that is

(03:24):
very per usual near and I wouldn't say dear, but relevant
to our. Heart.
It's dear to a part of my heart.I guess that's fair.
A black, dark part of my heart. And you know, also people have
been kind of asking about this, 'cause we have done an episode
on addiction in the past. And I feel like since then our

(03:46):
perspectives on addiction have evolved and our own experience
with addiction has evolved. And we've actually had a few
people ask us about our experience with addiction cause
we've mentioned it, you know, here and there.
So today we are asking the question, does everybody have

(04:07):
addictions? Yeah.
I paused because I wasn't sure if I had the question right.
Perpetually. And this question is damn, yeah,
this question's real. This question's really real.
Because I think that when we first did our addictions, our
last addictions episode, and I think the question was something

(04:28):
like, am I addicted to my diagnosis or something?
Like that we did a conscious coping episode and.
A conscious coping episode, But we didn't.
Go right for the jugular, we. Didn't go right for the jugular,
exactly so. And I don't even think we had
like, the awareness to do so. I feel like we, the narrative in
our lived experience at the timewas very much around conscious

(04:51):
coping and how doing so can be OK and fine.
And also you can swing the wrongdirection.
And we didn't really have it in our like, life narrative or in
our rhetoric that we were maybe like, addicted to things.
I mean, we didn't really talk about that so much as we talked
about when we decided to, like, consciously cope.

(05:11):
I felt, I mean, am I wrong? What do you think?
Yeah, I feel like, here's what Ifeel like.
I feel like there was an overallumbrella willingness to take
ownership and accountability forthe constant and idea that some
of these things can dip into addiction and sometimes have,
right. But I don't know that we were
both really just resolutely like, Oh no, me and this thing
the relationship is. Decision yeah, yeah.

(05:32):
So we're gonna dive into that today.
And I think the best place to start is to really kind of
define what we mean by addictionbecause I think different people
have different perceptions of what that word means.
That, you know, it goes anywherefrom like participating in a
thing regularly to, you know, full blown, like I abstain from

(05:55):
alcohol or any narcotic or whatever it is because I'm
addicted. And I go to like Alcoholics
Anonymous or whatever's anonymous and can't even be
around the thing. You know, there's like such,
there's so many different levelsto this game.
So we're going to talk about first what we think of and what
we are referring to when we talkabout addiction.

(06:17):
You want to have a stab at it, baby girl?
Yeah, OK, This is coming. This is very scattered.
I don't have like a streamlined.Perfect.
Yeah, it's kind of all over the place, but I would say at its at
its very root, if I look at the energetics of what an addiction
is, an addiction is symptomatic of an actual energetic emotional

(06:38):
addiction to a shame and guilt cycle.
So I haven't found yet totally possible.
I haven't found yet any of my own addictions or addictions in
other people that aren't deeply connected to an actual emotional
addiction to feeling guilt and shame, guilt and shame, guilt
and shame. Either covering up the guilt and
shame so you can feel more guiltand shame later, or inciting
guilt and shame because you feeltoo good.

(06:58):
And that's not, you know, copacetic to your nervous
system. And you need to bring it back
down to equilibrium, back down to shame and guilt because
that's where you're comfortable vibrating.
So I think that's at the core ofit.
And then if we look at behaviorally in like a very
human way, I would say an addiction is outsourcing

(07:19):
something that you could hold yourself to a person, a thing, a
behavior, a habit that's kind ofcovering up or obscuring that
thing. And I think in the case of
addiction, it's actually detracting.
It's actually taking away something from your life force,

(07:40):
your happiness, your joy, your prosperity, your sense of self,
your worth. It's taking something away from
you to do it, kind of like a parasite, which we've talked
about a lot. Like emotional parasites.
That's not very clear or succinct, but that's kind of how
I'm perceiving addictions. I love all those things and I

(08:00):
think that I agree with all of those things.
And I'm trying to think of like,what would I say if I were to
just like sum it up in like a nice little box, Like be really
reductionist about it, but in a way that, like leaves room for
all of what you just said. I feel like, I feel like I would

(08:22):
say that addiction, Well, I feellike I would first speak to the
place where addiction lives in US.
And I feel like addiction lives in US in the place where we
can't hold ourselves. So what I mean by that is let's

(08:44):
say we get social anxiety and have to drink when we're going
out. Let's say we can't deal with
being alone, so we have to smokeweed in order to feel
comfortable being alone. Let's say we can't handle the
long days at work, so we do cocaine to make it through the

(09:05):
work day or even coffee. You know, like addiction.
You. Can be addicted to anything.
You can be addicted to anything.Addiction lives in the place
where you don't have the capacity to hold yourself and to
hold your whatever perceived responsibility in that space.
What do you think about that? Yeah, that's been also my

(09:27):
understanding of that too. Like there's a space where I'm
not stepping up for myself, so I'm using the substance or the
circumstance or the behavior or whatever to Band-Aid that.
Yeah. And I like what you said, the
clarification that like you could be addicted to anything
'cause I think so often we thinkof addiction as to substances.
And then now it's becoming more normalized to look at like

(09:50):
workaholic, workaholic, basically productive.
Codependencies. Sex addiction, yeah, but there's
else, you know, There's literally, I have an addiction
to gum. Like, it's like there's so you
can be addicted to literally anything.
That is essentially like a coping strategy.
What do you do in the space of not being able to hold your own

(10:12):
experience? And that, my friend, is an
addiction. So I don't know.
Do you feel like you have anything to add?
No, I almost feel like, I don't know if this is worth our time,
but I almost wonder if it is worth our time to kind of talk
about like addiction in the sense of like just for the

(10:33):
definition, there are substancesthat have addictive properties
and that's typically where we focused, right?
Well, I mean, with the exceptionof sex and gambling, I think
those two things have been on the books.
And those aren't things that youactually like consume into your
mouth and ingest or through yournose or your veins.
But maybe we could spend some time talking about physiological
addiction and then the addictionwe're talking about where

(10:54):
there's overlap, where there's not overlap.
Because if anybody's listening and they've like had an alcohol
addiction, for example, that's probably one of my most go to
addictive behaviors is drinking.There's like I've noticed
there's the, oh, I've started drinking and now my body just is
craving alcohol because there's the physiological experience.
And then there's the mental emotional experience of which

(11:17):
when I'm, when I take breaks from alcohol, which I'm
currently in more of a break space, I can feel the like
mental and emotional thing that leads me to imbibe.
And then when I do imbibe, then the physiological thing comes
online. But I think a lot of people give
power to the physiological over the mental and emotional, which
is why the first thing I said was there's a shame, guilt cycle

(11:39):
happening here. Totally.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a good
point and it is a good distinction, although I don't
think that you can like separatethe two ultimately because, you
know, in the psychological experience of addiction, you
like it, then the physiological then proceeds and you like

(12:02):
naturally have a physiological response, whether that is
there's going to be a physiological response whether
or not the there are addictive properties to the thing, right.
Like so let's say I'm looking atgum versus cigarettes.
You know what I mean? It's like I am going to have a

(12:23):
physiological response to chewing gum that is going to
make me want to chew more gum because chewing the gum releases
chemicals, endorphins, dopamine,oxytocin, whatever it is that
makes me want to keep doing the gum thing.
Whereas there are, but that's more of like more associated

(12:46):
with the psychological nature ofthings.
Whereas like nicotine and cigarettes, if you partake in
those, there is like an actual dependency that occurs in your
body where you will have like anactual physical withdrawal
experience if you do become addicted.
However I like I also see physical withdrawal experiences

(13:11):
and people when they try to kickthings that aren't necessarily
physiologically addictive too. So I mean.
And just to add to that, I've also had, I've also witnessed
people who were heavy into nicotine products and just
decided one day to quit and theyhad no physiological response to
that. So it goes both ways.
Yes, yes. And I think what's really worth
talking about too, is that with these things that are

(13:35):
physiologically addictive that we perceive as, oh, if you start
that, you're going to get fucked.
You know what I mean? Like nicotine, kratom, you know,
cocaine, the things that people are like, oh, you actually get
addicted to those things. I don't love.
I just don't love the weight that those things have.

(13:56):
And I'm not like pro cigarettes.I'm not pro cocaine.
I'm just like, I don't think that that's a reason not to do
something. I think the reason not to do
something is more to check in with yourself and say like do I
see myself going down a addictive?
Path. Yeah.
Do I trust myself, right? Because like for myself, I

(14:18):
frequent kratom. I did every day for like months
and months and months. And then I just decided I was
going to stop one day because I was like, oh, I forgot that this
thing is addictive. I should probably stop and see
if my body can handle not havingit.
And I stopped and I literally had no withdrawals and no
experience. Whatsoever break 2, same thing.
Yeah. So it's like, if you have the
capacity to do that with something, it doesn't actually

(14:39):
matter if it's a physiologicallyaddictive thing.
Well, right, so I'll say like I've done nicotine, kratom,
coke. I I'm not doing any of those
right now and I'm fine and I've never had any issues doing it,
not doing it, doing it, not doing it.
That's never been a thing for me, but I have had fucking
issues with alcohol and with sexand with being overly productive
and like busy and like working out too hard and intensely and

(15:02):
codependency. Yeah.
So I think the weight in my mind, and this is a totally
subjective belief, the weight inmy mind goes more towards do you
trust yourself with the thing and less about is the thing a
physiologically addictive substance?
Yep. I think that's important.
And we're not ignoring the physiological aspects.

(15:24):
Yeah, I just wanted to like touch on that because I think
the actual frame that we're gonna spend most of the time
having this conversation on is the mental emotional addiction
piece, because I think that's the one that's pervasive
everywhere. You know, you're not necessarily
having a physiological physiologically induced response
to, you know, like you said, your gum, for example, the way

(15:46):
that you would a cigarette. Even if you do have
physiological response, that's more a psychosomatic thing.
Yeah. OK, OK, cool.
Thank you for indulging me there.
Great. OK, so now I feel like we should
talk about, well, should we talkabout our own addictions?

(16:07):
Yeah, let's just, yeah, let's share our fucking stories
because like when we're asking this question, does everyone
have addictions? It's like everyone, we could
never fucking know that. I'm sure there are people out
there that don't like they, theyjust don't get attached to
things, I'm sure. I think at least in the Western
culture and in modern society today, yeah, everybody has an
addiction somewhere. I think the most pervasive and

(16:29):
common that I see is like the phone.
Everybody addicted to they phone.
So true. So I do think it's valuable for
us to talk about our own personal addictions.
One, to just like normalize it, not normalize it in a way like
everybody's doing doing it, so do it.
But to just say like this is a very human fucking experience.
And in the culture we live in today, there's almost in some

(16:49):
senses like a requirement to develop an addiction to cope
with the ridiculousness of our society and the how fast-paced
it is. That is a great.
How much? We're pushing, yeah.
We literally have created a society and a infrastructure in
this country in particular that requires us.

(17:11):
We have to cope. We have to cope because the pace
of life is too fast, too fast. The like the distance that we
are from nature, just as in so far as like literally like the
cement that we're walking on theartificial.
Food. Substances, the food like
substances that we interact withon a daily basis like we are

(17:34):
constantly overstimulated by phone noise.
Yeah work. It's like you.
We have created a world of. Overwhelm.
Of overwhelm and it begs for coping strategies which are

(17:56):
addictions, right? Quickly become addictions.
Very quickly, yeah, so and Liv and I, you know, I mean, like if
I were to just answer this question out the gate and be
like, does everybody have an addiction?
I'd say yes, because yeah, if wereally want to zoom out and be

(18:16):
like an addiction is a thing that you have an attachment to
managing your lived experience, yes, everybody has that and it
looks different for everybody. But I really, I would say that
that would be my belief that yes, everybody does in some way
or another. And maybe it isn't affecting
their lives in a negative way, but it's there.

(18:40):
So Liv and Iron are no exceptionto that belief.
So. As human as it.
Fucking could we? We'd be human in Subhad.
So Liv, you want to tell us whatyour what are your coping
strategies that have transitioned into addictive
behaviors? Yeah, you know, I've talked

(19:02):
about the alcohol a lot. 1 that I have not spoken of out loud
and admitted because I had to reckon with my most recent
relationship before I could, wassex.
And not just the act of having it, talking about it, thinking
about it. I'm still participating.
I listen to dark romance novels.What do they call it?
Smudge. Smut, smut smudge.

(19:23):
I always thought it was Smudge. You know grandma this entire
time Smudge and no one has corrected me.
Damn. Oh, she started a new genre.
It's a smudge novel. I'm going to write a smudge
novel. So that's a real thing for you,
OK. I've been listening to smudge

(19:44):
novels. So yeah, I know there is.
Well, here's what I would say. I'd say there's I have a
hedonistic side to me which I'm sure is deeply shocking.
No one would look at me and imagine.
That. Yeah, I have a hedonistic side
and I have, I honestly, it's very easy for me to get lost in

(20:05):
pleasure seeking activities and chasing highs, very much chasing
highs, which I think is a stapleof all people with addictive
personalities shout out. And for me, I think my most in
the shadows, hidden one has beensex.
Especially because a lot of the way that I even started
interacting with sex as a reallyyoung girl was to get attention,

(20:28):
to get power. It was not, you know, this like
embodied like, oh, I'm communingwith another person.
I just learned that that was a part of sex in my last
relationship, which is another reason why it was so confusing.
There was so much sex addiction in there.
My part my ex definitely a sex addict, but if to me OK, here's

(20:48):
I was doing a comparative thing which comparison is the thief of
joy yes, I was comparing myself to him and he's in my book way
more egregious lies lies, not he's just more out there and
public about his mine. I actually would say are more
egregious because they're a lot sneakier.

(21:09):
And like I said, it's not just the act of having it.
It's thinking about, it's talking about it.
It's plotting to get it. It's, you know, like there was a
point in time where I was like just masturbating all the time
way too fucking much. And it was like, I need to spend
my money on this and that toy and.
What is way too fucking much OK guys for.
A reference and the only OK, themain reason that I am saying

(21:31):
this is because I wasn't doing other things that could have
been bringing me joy. I was just doing this thing.
But this was especially when I was married, I had a lady cave
and I would go in there at like,I don't know, 8:00 PM, you know,
my ex-husband would, you know, go upstairs and get ready for
bed and I'd go down into my ladycave and maybe from like 8:00 PM

(21:52):
to like two or three AM, I'm just in there watching Magic
Mike. I'm gonna repeat y'all.
That was my go to rank movie. Well, OK.
And then like, OK, I'm gonna just Full disclosure, the screen
would be on with the magic M12. Holy fuck. 3 came out recently
and that's a good one. But just one and 2 is what I had

(22:13):
and I'd cycle through them and then I'd have my phone with the
porn and then I would have however many dildos and a
vibrator, at least one. And I would just go to town on
myself for like 6 or 7 hours straight.
And that would happen 3 or 4 times a week.
Yeah, damn, That's how I stayed monogamous.
I was like, I can't be a cheater, but I got to get off.

(22:33):
So that's what I'm doing, right?And I'm going to work tired by
the time I get to the end of theday.
I've like, I feel like I need togo to bed, but then the drive,
the addiction kicks on and I've like, Pavlovian dogged myself.
It's 8:00 PM. I'm horny as shit.
Well, my husband doesn't want tohave sex with me, so I'm going
to go in there and I'm going to like have sex with all my fake
boyfriends, disembodied boyfriends, you know?

(22:55):
My goodness. Yeah.
OK wait, so can we like, stay onthis for a SEC?
Yeah, 'cause like if I, I like there's like, there's got to be
somebody on here that's hearing this and they're like, wow,
that's so fucking dope that you have these like wet and wild

(23:17):
sessions with yourself for six hours.
Like there's a world where that's like such a beautiful
embodied thing. And like, I feel like it's
important to like, draw the distinction.
Like, why 'cause that's not the thing that was.
That in and of itself is not a bad thing, right?
So, like, what are we pointing out here?

(23:39):
And like what, in your experience, what made it an
addiction, and what made that addiction a negative thing for
you? Yep.
So I would say first and foremost, there's a shame guilt
cycle connected to it and it canbe difficult to detect that I,
the first time I heard that I was like, not all and it's been
like 2 1/2 years of me chewing on that and going, oh yah, ha.
But essentially like there was alot of my sex and sexuality that

(24:01):
was hidden even from myself. It's not like I was going in
there like exploring. I was just fucking wanking it.
I was like, oh, I have genitals that can get off multiple times.
I can reach a high, I can reach a peak.
So I'm chasing a high, I'm chasing a peak.
I wasn't like, it's not like like now if I have like a
goddess attention session, there's so much more involved in
it. It's not just straight to pussy.

(24:22):
Get her off. OK, It's been 10 minutes.
I'd like to get high again, get her off.
It's not that it is more wet andwild like you would say.
You just said. It's a lot more exploratory and
like playing with all of it and appreciating myself and talking
to myself the way I'd want to love her to talk to myself.
It's there's like a lot more dynamism in it now at that point
in time. Not at all.

(24:43):
So there's that piece, right? There were hidden shameful
aspects to my sexuality that I wasn't necessarily facing.
Are you? Did your husband know you were
going to do this? I don't know that he, it's not
like we talked about it. I don't know if he, you know,
got wise to it and figured it out.
I mean, he wasn't a stupid man, so he totally got up.
Another, like I always say, that's like a cardinal sign of

(25:05):
addiction is like, are you not being transparent about?
It oh, I was certainly not beingtransparent about it.
We were not talking about it. He did not know.
There's no way in hell I would have told him like what porn I
was watching, you know, like there's no snow way.
So yeah, there were like these hidden elements of it.
And then ultimately there was a guilt aspect to not using any of

(25:27):
that time to do anything else that was like creative or adding
value to my life or pushing my goals forward or, you know,
maybe even like bringing more intimacy to my marriage that
even that didn't even occur to me, to be totally honest, which
is insane to think about. But it didn't.
And then I'd be tired the next day, right?
So like, I'm going to bed at like 3.

(25:47):
And it's not like I'm just goingto bed at 3:00.
I'm going to bed at 3 after likeworking out and like exhausting
my body, right? And if I'm doing this like 3 or
4 times a week, it's like I'm never really fully catching up
on sleep, which also means my cognitive function is lower, my
body health is lower, my energy to work out, take really good
care of my body and make good choices.

(26:08):
You know, get organized with my job, get ahead of work, work on
my own creative products. It's just not there.
And then so to feel good and to feel energized and to feel high,
now I've got to go back to my addiction because that's the
only place that I can feel the thing I'm trying to feel and
want to feel. But then the next day, I feel
even worse than I did the first time I did that this week.

(26:28):
And it just starts to stack, right.
And that's something I noticed with all of my coping.
If I get to a place where I start to like, feel like, oh, I
don't feel better after doing it, now that's a surefire sign.
I've tiptoed straight across theline and into addiction because
now afterward, there's some, like, hangover of not feeling

(26:49):
very good about myself, which iswhat was happening with alcohol
recently. And I was like, OK, I'm just
fucking. I'm done.
Yeah, Yeah. I feel like in that just like
story, you pointed out three really big parts of or like
traits of addiction, which is 1 the secrecy, the hiding right

(27:11):
And that's. No, I wasn't telling anybody
this. Fuck no.
Right. Like the shame, the guilt, the
like, oh, I'm not gonna tell anybody.
And then to the getting in the way of things that actually are
beneficial for you. Getting the way I want, the
things I'm actually saying I want.
Getting in the way of you takingcare of yourself, getting in the
way of you doing things that youneed to be doing or taking care

(27:36):
of your responsibilities or showing up to the, you know,
your responsibilities in life. And then three, the hangover,
the regret, the oh fuck, I did it again, damn it, the breaking
trust with self. I feel like those are three like
really, really, really clear. Like, Oh yeah, OK, there's an

(27:56):
addictive behavior here. Yeah, even only like you saying
it and framing it that way. I'm like, there is when I've
gone into loving myself sessions, there's a clear
intention. I set a container.
Like there's just so much intention when I'm in an
addictive behavior. It's impulsive.
It's just impulsive. It's just like I have to or I
really want to. There's like an itchiness to it.

(28:19):
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I just, I really want
to just again, harp on the it's not the thing.
It's not the thing. It's your relationship to the
thing. That's where the addiction is
the issue. It's never the thing.
I don't even care if you're doing cocaine.
Like I do believe that there's areality where you can have a

(28:40):
positive relationship to it. You know what I mean?
It's like it's not about the thing, it's about your
relationship to the thing. And like lives experience with
these like sexcapades that she'dgo on by herself.
It's like there is a really beautiful, transcendent way to
do something like that. In fact, I fucking aspire.
To have. That experience in my life, but

(29:04):
I, you know, that's not the relationship that I have with
it. For me, it would and like and
for live now too. It's like this expansive
exploratory self-care, self loveintentional container where
there is this exploration and this intimacy with self and this
expansive mentality as opposed to this like I'm just going to

(29:25):
go until I fucking drop dead because I can't handle my life.
You know what I mean? If you're a super anxious
person, it helps with the anxiety.
Right, exactly. And just create a new anxiety
for you in the background. Right, right.
It's like trade one problem in for another.
Yeah, exactly. All right, but we gotta hear it.
We gotta hear an addiction storyfrom.
You mine yeah, OK, so well, there's a few things that I'm

(29:49):
addicted to. I think I will just name them
and then I'll like get I'll divedeeper into like the one that
feels the most potent for me. But I like I said, I'm addicted
to gum. It's like my thing that I like
it gives me like a dopamine hit like the end, the burst of
flavor in my mouth. I don't know it just like
distracts me and like I'm a likeit like tends to my oral

(30:11):
fixation and I just like I couldI can I'm like a pack a day kind
of girly. If I don't like if I'm not
mindful, yeah, it's fucking wild.
It could even be more if I like I'm not thinking about it like
it's just such a unconscious like anxiety coping strategy.

(30:32):
But it's so funny because chewing the gum actually feeds
my anxiety right? But it feels good to do in the
space of anxiety. It's like something for my
anxiety to literally chew on. It's like Noss, yeah, Noss on
your aggression. Exactly.
So when I'm, so when I'm real, when I realize I'm in anxiety, I

(30:53):
have to like say, OK, I'm gonna stop chewing gum.
And then that I had this little like withdrawal period where I'm
just like, fuck, I just want to chew gum.
I want something in my mouth. Like I need something in my
mouth. You just like rocking back and
forth like I need the gum. Where's the?
Gum it's kind of wild, but it's something that like I, you know,
it's a small, it's a small one as far.

(31:14):
As yeah, it's not wrecking your life.
So you're like, oh. Whatever and I can go a day
without chewing gum and not likelose my shit, but it's more of
like when I'm in the anxiety cycle and I'm already chewing
gum to get to stop to stop chewing gum is like I have to
just chug water or something, you know, like I have to do
something. It's wild anyways and then food,

(31:36):
my relationship with food, I'm going in like most minor to most
major order. Food is like way more of a thing
for me and it's a it's a stress response.
Like I will when I'm acutely stressed.
I actually don't eat and I like lose weight.
But when I'm chronically stressed.
Yep, Yep. I.

(31:57):
Identify with this. I just eat it just like fills
the void space of my discomfort in my life and it feels good
everywhere and it's so groundingand it's just so satisfying.
And it's actually very similar to the experience of gum.
Like I like things in my mouth. You hear that, lads?
She likes things in her mouth. So, yeah, that one is the one

(32:18):
that I've struggled with for a long time now.
I would say that one started probably back in like, you know,
maybe 10 years ago. Yeah, I resumed with this.
One, I still struggle with bingeeating.
I used to be around the time I was masturbating like a psycho.
I used to binge like crazy too. Yeah, yeah.

(32:41):
And ultimately, like if anybody has ever binge eaten before,
they know the fucking feeling. The fucking horrible feeling
after a binge. Where you just the next morning
is the worst you. Literally want to die.
It's like I. Feel like a stuffed sausage?
You feel like an idiot, an asshole and a piece of shit and
everything else all at the same time and a fat cow all the same

(33:02):
time. And it's really like, it's funny
because to talk about because itsounds absurd, but it's like.
The shame, guilt on that one is so nutrient dense because of our
society and all the fat phobia and all of the misnomers about
health and nutrition and beauty standards for women and what
makes you desirable. That one is, I feel like most of

(33:25):
the women listening to this are going to go Yep, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, so. And then again, like, it's not
the thing. Eating is a great thing.
We all have to eat. Yeah, it's like that.
There is a beautiful and sacred and healthy and caring and
loving way to eat, and then there is an addictive spiraling.

(33:50):
Just. Self hating, self deprecating,
self sabotaging way to eat and Iparticipate in both.
Same. I would say that I participate
in the healthy loving way a lot more now than I do the like
sabotaging way. But still like in the face of

(34:14):
chronic stress, like that's my catalyst.
I just like I turn to food anyway, OK.
And then number one most challenging addiction for me as
of recently in my life, as of like the past year and a half or
so, is ketamine. I've been there on that one.
It's been a while, but I've beenthere.

(34:35):
And it started as a beautiful thing because ketamine is a
beautiful medicine. And I was introduced to it like
2 1/2 years ago, maybe almost three years ago.
I had never done ketamine in my life until I was like 30 years
old. And I went, I participated in a

(34:59):
like like meditation ceremony led by like Aubrey Marcus in
this like beautiful setting. And it was very intimate.
And there was probably like, I don't know, fifty of us.
And it was just this whole thingand it was beautiful.
And I had like this gorgeous experience.

(35:20):
I felt like so connected to myself.
I felt like I got so many beautiful insights.
And then anyways, there was thisconnection that I'm just not
going to speak to because I justdon't want any repercussions.
But I ended up getting this connection that was like
technically legal to getting ketamine through.

(35:46):
Yeah, I'm not even going to go there.
And so I always had ketamine lozenges, like medical grade
ketamine lozenges on on deck andI would do ketamine journeys
like, you know, a couple times amonth.

(36:06):
But even still, like I didn't feel like I, I needed it.
I didn't feel like I had to. It was just like a thing that I
did and it wasn't, didn't feel like a dependency.
And also, OK, in the community that you and I were hanging out,
in the communities we were hanging out.
And that was very common for people.
To be doing. 3 or 4 medicine ceremonies a month, people.
A week, yeah, people would be sonormal.

(36:28):
Any party I went to, people weredoing ketamine.
It was like so. Micro dosing mushrooms Micro.
Dosing. Molly and just like everybody's
on a substance everywhere all the.
Time and so and I was the personwho I'm like didn't really fuck
with ketamine and I was still doing it twice a month you know
what I mean anyways and then eventually life got hard and

(36:55):
what and I just started to my relationship got really
challenging actually. Like I struggled to cope with
being in the face of Matt and just like all of the shit that
being in the face of him broughtup for me just all of my
inadequacy feelings of inadequacy, feelings of

(37:15):
abandonment, feelings of not being chosen feelings of losing,
you know him myself like just losing everything losing control
pretty much and so I just did ketamine all the time to cope
with it. I would do ketamine.
Like we would go to his parents house and when we, me and his
parents first met, like it was very challenging because, you

(37:38):
know, they were getting to know me.
You know, meeting parents is always tough.
Not always, but it was in this case.
And I would just like go off andlike do get what I mean because
I like couldn't handle it. And yeah.
And then eventually it became a daily thing.
And then I just found myself literally constantly doing

(38:00):
ketamine whenever somebody and people weren't looking, just
like either taking a lozenge or like snorting at my nose.
And yeah, I would literally do it every day, literally every
single day for months. And then I, you know, there were
a couple of different periods ofthis, like, I would decide, OK,

(38:22):
I'm gonna stop. And I would be challenging and
I'd eventually stop and then I would relapse.
And, you know, it's been a crazy, crazy ride.
And it's been the hardest one for me.
And it's been the thing that hasactually shown me my own
addictive behaviors because before ketamine, like, you know,

(38:45):
even with gum and with food, like, I don't think I would have
identified those as addictions. Until you could see the.
Pattern until I could see the pattern for what it is through
my experience with ketamine. Damn, dude, yeah, thank you for
sharing that. And I honestly, I can relate to

(39:05):
that with ketamine. You know what I was just
thinking of immediately? I was like, well, you're in the
Elon Musk club. I heard recently he's done so
much ketamine it fucked up his kidneys or something.
Really. Yeah.
So it's like. Yeah, ketamine does fuck up your
kidneys. Yeah.
And with the, it's literally like a, it's a horse
tranquilizer for people who aren't overly familiar with it.
And for me with the 'cause I went through.

(39:26):
Not just horses, I think elephants too, like.
Yeah, giant ass animals, Giant ass animals, you know, like
Matthew Perry drowned in a hot tub because he was high on
ketamine. Like it's this thing that's kind
of a little bit more pervasive and abundant in our culture now.
But I think for me, it's like the ketamine dream as it is

(39:47):
referred to. That for me, I think really
speaks to the concept of, yeah, it's a substance and yeah, we
can look at like the addictive properties of it.
But I really think what ketamineoffers you that artificial like
escape from things, that artificial way of like detaching

(40:07):
that artificial way of having this higher perspective.
Because like you said, it's you can have some major fucking
breakthroughs on that stuff. You know, they use it clinically
now for it to help people in very, very low doses.
So it's like you're not like getting high off of it, but.
So there's so much in the experience of doing ketamine
that I actually think is where what people are escaping into.
It's not necessarily the physiological sensation.

(40:30):
It's artificially providing you access in your consciousness, in
your human experience to something that you don't know
how to access sober. So you just go there.
Like something you were saying you were noticing is like at the
end of the day, when you're likepeak stress, you just want to go
do the ketamine because what does the ketamine provide for
you in that space? The experience of a calm nervous

(40:52):
system going from to just everything's fine, I'm cool, I'm
chill, it's all good. I have this higher perspective.
I'm detached from my emotional experience, blah, blah, blah.
I think that particular substance in my experience of
also, there was a whole year where Scott and I were just, we
literally had little mini shovels and we were just
everyday ketamine, everyday ketamine.

(41:13):
We were justifying using it to like have difficult
conversations between the two ofus.
And at some point I was like, are we high?
Every time we have a difficult conversation, I think that's AI
think that's a problem. Yep.
And literally our when we moved up to Vermont, our relationship
started dissolving because we removed ourselves from
substances on purpose and thingsstarted falling apart.

(41:34):
Old at all, baby. Yeah, I, yeah, I I feel like
what's really important to note again is, you know, it's not the
thing like Liv was saying it's like there are so many
beautiful, beautiful gifts that people can receive from
ketamine. I have received beautiful gifts

(41:55):
from ketamine, like it is truly like a neuroplastic medicine
where you get to kind of like you get this like access point
to rewiring your experience and it in a way that like feels more
supportive for you, which is beautiful.
And if it's what you're relying on to live your daily life,

(42:16):
that's probably not a great idealike what I experienced.
So anyway, I feel like this is agood point to kind of like segue
into one, Like how do we manage and navigate addictions and
like, what do we do in that space?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's coming?
I have like a thought that just feels the most important and
feels like the most potent way to navigate this and is probably

(42:41):
really hard for a lot of people.I think it was really hard for
both Liv and I for a period of time.
But once it clicked, it clicked is just, well, I guess it's kind
of twofold. 1 is recognizing like who you want to be.
Like getting really fucking honest with yourself about who
do you want to be and what do you want to be capable of.

(43:04):
Because if you have these big dreams and aspirations, if you
want to be a certain type of person who does a certain type
of thing that's really big and impressive and you can't handle
your daily life, like that's notgoing to work, honey.
It's like you really got to decide who you want to be and

(43:25):
what you want to be capable of. And then the second part is
develop the trust with yourself.Because in the face of
addiction, we break trust with self.
Nobody who's addicted to something trusts themselves
around that thing. That's just not the way it goes
those. Are like antonyms, addiction,

(43:47):
self trust. Yeah, exactly.
So if you are going to kick something, you need to learn to
trust yourself in the face of it.
And that is what's required to be the person that you want to
be, right. So like for myself, for example,
like babe philosophy is honestlybabe philosophy and my

(44:07):
relationship with Matt, you know, those are the two things
that I look to and realize like whoa, I want to be a certain
type of person for these for this for my partner and for my
life's work. And if I, I am doing this
ketamine, I'm never going to be that person.

(44:29):
Like when I visualize myself as the most actualized version of
myself, when I visualize myself,you know, in babe philosophy,
you know, married to Matt five years from now, I see, I see so
many things, and me running off to snort ketamine is not one of
them. I can't handle my shit.

(44:50):
You're right back. Yeah, exactly.
It's like you kind of got to grow some fucking balls and be
able to deal with the shit that comes with life and just realize
that like, OK, I'm going to haveto deal with some fucking shit
here to be the person that I want to be.
And now I'm going to have to getsmall wins and say no in the

(45:13):
face of this thing enough times to rebuild myself trust.
And I think that is like, that is for me what, what works.
And like when I come back to andit's, it's not like a, it's not
like a fail safe. It's not like a, this works
every time. It's not like the, that's all
you have to do. It's so easy 'cause I find

(45:33):
myself, you know, struggling sometimes to stick with that
program, to keep that trust withmyself to but or, and something
that I think is so fucking important.
And I really, really, really feel like very strongly about
this. And I know a lot of people might
disagree and they might get their panties in a bunch about

(45:54):
it, but I don't think the goal is abstinence.
I don't, I just don't think the goal meet that come here.
I don't think the goal is abstinence because that
essentially the message that I hear when I hear of indefinite

(46:17):
abstinence, specifically, indefinite abstinence is.
Like the never. I'm never going to trust myself
in the face of this thing. Ever.
Ever, ever. So I can never do it right.
And like, I think the goal is tobe able to hold the complexity
of your experience, realize thatthis is a touchy thing and

(46:38):
recognize that right now, maybe it's not appropriate for me to
partake in this, but one day I might be able to.
And then I'm going to keep that window open.
And then I can address that at that point.
And if I fall or if I fail or ifI do a thing one time, it
doesn't mean I'm a failure. It doesn't mean I'm an addict.
It doesn't mean I get to go downin the shame cycle.

(47:00):
What it means is let me observe that experience that I just had
and let me get information from it.
Did it feel good? Did I feel good?
Did not Did I feel did I feel good in the moments?
Probably did. But did I feel good after?
Did I feel good after? Did it get in the way of me
showing up for my life? Did I feel like I had to hide
it? Like look at that.

(47:23):
If you relapse, look at that because if chances are it's
possible if you told your best friend, hey, I'm going to do
this. This happened to me with
ketamine the other day. I told Liv, hey, I'm going to do
ketamine. I did the ketamine and I didn't
feel guilty after. And I was like, yeah, actually,
I think I'm still gonna not do ketamine because it still

(47:45):
doesn't feel quite clean in terms of like my energy towards
it and my relationship towards it.
And I don't like there wasn't shame, there wasn't hiding,
there wasn't didn't get in the way of my life, which shows me,
even though I did the thing, it shows me that I'm growing in the
face of it. Yep, you're shifting the
relationship. I'm shifting the relationship.
Yep, Yep, I'm gonna, I agree with that.

(48:06):
And also, just to put some legs behind your theory here, I
actually learned pretty recentlyfrom a friend of mine who's a
social worker in the DSM, which I'm gonna mess up what that
acronym is like diagnostic symptom manual something.
It's what psychologists and therapists refer to when they're
looking at disorders and how they would actually diagnose
whether somebody's bipolar or schizophrenic, right?

(48:30):
So in there when they talk aboutaddiction, it's not actually in
remission if you're in avoidant coping, which is what abstinence
would be. And again, abstinence can be a
really important and powerful tool to like cleanse, to detox,
to take space from, to get back to baseline.
But you're not actually considered in remission, which
would be healed, cured, completein your process, unless you can

(48:51):
stand in the face of the stimulus and still stay within
your integrity, still stay inside of what's true for you.
So you wouldn't actually be a healed addict in the face of
alcohol if you just never can even look at a beer without, you
know, drinking yourself into oblivion.

(49:12):
So there's actual like scientific backing to your
theory here. So again, I agree with you.
I don't think that abstinence isthe goal.
And I actually think, and I've discovered this recently in my
case, a lot of times my answer to everything is abstain and be
disciplined and work hard. That's a fucking addiction.
I'm like using my addiction of control, which is often why I go

(49:36):
do the substances because I'm like, I'm so controlled.
I need the freedom. I need a.
Pleasure it. Is a meta addiction.
So I'll like enact my addiction to control, to heal my other
addictions. And so there's distortion in
that. It's dirty fuel.
There's dirty fuel in that. And then that inevitably,
inevitably gets me to swing back.

(49:56):
So I will OK for, you know, 60 days, I'm not going to do this
thing and I'll white knuckle it and white knuckle it and then I
don't do it. And then day 61, I go have one
beer. I feel good about the one beer.
Three days later I'm like, I'm gonna have two tequila cocktails
before you know it. 4 weeks later I'm going to a happy hour
every, you know, other day and I'm like OK this is fucking

(50:17):
dumb. Like this didn't actually solve
anything for me. This just pressed pause on an
issue I still am having in relationship to this thing.
Yes. That is such a critical point,
the white knuckling, the forcingyourself to do something that is
going to be an absolute garbage strategy.
And like, like Liv was pointing out, it's not about like what we
just said, it's not about the abstaining, right?

(50:38):
It's a tool that is a tool. And you may end up abstaining
for the rest of your life and that's fine.
But it's not about the abstaining.
It is about the doing it for yourself.
And I think that's the critical piece that we're getting at here
is you have to, in order to manage an addiction, in order to

(50:58):
heal from an addiction, in orderto integrate your experience
around an addiction and heal your relationship with the thing
you're addicted to. You have to find a motive that
is within yourself. You have to find a motive that
matters to you and you alone. And it could be a relationship
with somebody else, but that hasto be about the importance of

(51:21):
that relationship to you, not because that person in the
relationship is telling you you have to do it right.
And it can't be because your jobtold you you have to do it.
It can't be because your partnertold you have to do it.
Your best friend told you you have to do it.
It can't be because you know if you don't do it, you won't pass
your drug test. You know, it's like it can't be
for anything outside of you because that's not sustainable.

(51:43):
It has to be for something in you and live has her little like
filter that she puts through is like would $1,000,000 live do
this like would million and that's what that's basically
what my thing is too. It's like would five years from
now Mellie fucking crushing babephilosophy leading retreats,
talking on stages crushing life like would she do this?

(52:06):
She's. Sneaking off.
Like, is she sneaking off like agremlin to go put things up her
nose? Probably not.
You know what I mean? No.
She's doing it out in the open in front of everybody cause no
shame. Which is fine if that's the
case, right? You know what I mean?
Because that then it wouldn't bean addiction.
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, maybe it could be

(52:26):
maybe. Just like a.
Super unhinged one, but super. Unhinged.
No, no, no. But anyway, point being you have
to find your. Why?
That's really what it is. You have to find your why that
is yours and yours alone. And that is really 'cause
addiction is a hard place. Like it's so fucking
challenging. I can't tell you how many like

(52:48):
just crying shameful experiencesI've had around.
Like feeling like I'm a piece ofshit for relying on the
substance, feeling like I don't deserve to like have what I have
to feel. Feeling like I'm an imposter

(53:08):
that I like, you know, perceive myself as conscious.
But here I am snorting ketamine everyday.
You know, like just all of the shameful thoughts that come
through in, in, in the face of addiction is really fucking
hard. And I truly, truly, truly
believe the only person that canhelp you truly get all the way

(53:30):
out. I mean, yes, family and friends
support systems, you know, anonymous, anonymous meetings,
those are all really, really great tools.
But at the end of the day, the only person that's really going
to get you out for good is your future self and connecting to
who that person is. Yeah.
And I think this speaks to maybethe most important part of

(53:52):
facing your addiction, you know,being willing to look at
yourself in the mirror and be like, yo, bitch, you're fucking
addicted to this shit. And being honest.
Ultimately, when you're willing to acknowledge that and look at
it and face it head on and just call a spade a spade, now you
have choices. And now you can actually start
asking yourself questions, whichI think is ultimately really
what you want to do. This is how you find your why is

(54:13):
going wait, why do I need to do this?
What besides the obvious like surface level?
Well, it's fun and it feels goodand it I do it with my friends
and I'm physiologically addictedand it sounds like a lot to have
my body go through withdrawals. Whatever your story is, what's
actually at the root of that? What got you to even in the 1st

(54:34):
place think you needed this thing?
And I think this idea there for me and my addictions, there is a
specific kind of anxiety that comes when I'm like, yo, you
need to stop this. And I can just feel it's like,
it's like our discussion about anxiety versus intuition.
Intuition, even if it's pushing you into a place that is deeply,

(54:57):
deeply uncomfortable, there is just a resolute calm, same
volume. It's saying the same thing over
and over and over and over again.
The frenetic energy of like addiction anxiety, and that
it'll change its argument over and over and over and over and
over again. And if you really start to clue
into that game you're playing with yourself and your mind,

(55:18):
there's something some seed thought is being obscured by the
logic of how to justify your next hit or score or whatever it
is you're chasing. And I have found there to be.
So it's almost like there's a thread in a sweater and once you
just start pulling on it, the whole thing starts to unravel.

(55:41):
And I can't tell you how many times I've been like, wait, why
do I actually feel like I need to have this drink?
Or am I masturbating because I'mhorny and that feels good to my
body? Or am I masturbating because my
brain's trying to get a hit of endorphins right now Last, my
brain need a head of endorphins.Like what?
What's happening? What's happened in the recent 48
hours that I fucking need to do this and checking that.

(56:03):
And you know, the answer's not always clear the first time, but
the more consistent you are withat least being able to face it
and being willing to go, oh, I did my addiction thing.
I did my addiction thing. I did my addiction thing.
You'll just start to notice likeit's so obvious what's
happening. Like it's so oh fuck, this thing
in my life sucks and I'm not getting rid of this.

(56:26):
I hate my job. I fucking hate my job.
And so I am spending all of my free time coping with the fact
that I have to go to work tomorrow and I am choosing to
stay addicted. I'm choosing short term
gratification to keep a job thatI hate in the hopes that one day
I'll be happy. Is that equation work?

(56:47):
Is that going to work for me? Has it worked for anybody before
me? Oh fuck no.
That's how my daddy. That's how my daddy died of a
heart attack at 58. He's fucking miserable, drowning
himself in booze. Like it just becomes very
obvious when you're willing to actually like call a spade a
spade. So I think that's the like most
important piece is like, be willing to look at that and then
ask yourself why so that you canget to your why for your future

(57:09):
self. If you get to why you're doing
this thing now, right underneaththat will be the OK.
Why do I want to change this behavior?
Who do I want to be? Yeah, yeah, I am so glad that
you had that piece of the inquiry of like, why, What is it
that I'm running from? Like what is it that I can't sit
with? And can I remove that instead of

(57:32):
leaning on this thing to cope with it?
Instead of pouring gasoline on the.
Fire. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah.
And, you know, there's so, like,addiction is such a complex
thing and, oh, it's layered. It's so layered and Liv and I
are barely scratching the surface right now.
And there. It's like if you were to even
just take everything that Liv and I just said in the past, I

(57:53):
don't even know how long it's been at this point, it would
still be a really reductionist approach.
You know what I mean? Because it's such a involved
experience and such a personal experience and such a like a
deeply layered experience for each individual and each
individual's layers are different when it comes to their

(58:14):
addictive patterns, their addictive behaviors.
And I think the, the biggest message is actually to sit with
yourself more so than to look out at how other people are
doing it, how other people have managed it.
And yes, that's all important and take it all in and let it
all marinate. But like, at the end of the day,
you're going to have to figure out the path that works for you

(58:36):
because the path that works for you is going to be different
than the path that worked for anybody else.
It might look similar. There might be a path that
might, you know, resonate a lot with somebody else's, but you
have to find the one that's trueto you because that's really the
only way to have sustainable like recovery, so to speak.
Yeah, what you're saying is exactly why most interventions

(58:56):
don't work and why they don't let you forcibly put someone in
rehab because it won't stick. Yep, Beautiful point.
Beautiful point. Sick.
Well, I feel complete. You know, we'll probably talk
about this again. I've been, I've been reorienting
my relationship to alcohol sinceI was in my early fucking 20s.
So I'm in my early, I'm in my mid 30s now so.
Yeah, and I've been. See you in 20 years to talk

(59:18):
about this I've. Been in like my ketamine
remission from my last like. Binge phase.
Binge phase for yeah for like a month so you know I just stopped
drinking here we. Are like 3 weeks ago so we'll
see where this goes and I am so proud of this is the longest I
have abstained like had good boundaries around sex and

(59:42):
abstained from just like especially post breakup that
used to be my thing was like geton Tinder.
I've been a good girl. Yeah, dude, we're all just out
here, like, playing this game oflife together, trying to figure
it out and like, navigating the hurdles.
So I just really want to be clear that this is where Liv and
I are coming from. It's like our own personal

(01:00:03):
experiences, like. Yeah, we're not experts on.
Edition We don't have this figured out.
We're just literally learning aswe go and sharing with you what
we're learning. That's true of everything we
talk about, by the way. I just feel like this is like a
particularly touchy subject thatpeople are going to have a lot
of opinions. Yeah, and that's great.

(01:00:23):
Have your opinions. It's not going to change my Lyft
experience. Exactly.
All right, well, thank you for tuning in.
Please like and comment, let us know what your thoughts are.
Let us know what it is that you're navigating and like how
you're navigating it. Like what worked for you?
What's your? Sneakiest addiction?
I want to know your sneakiest, the one that you maybe didn't

(01:00:45):
even realize was an addiction until you listened to this
episode and you were like, oh. Fuck, I do that?
Yeah, exactly. Like gum like that.
That would be so easy to miss that.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
All right. Well, we love you as always.
We will see you next time later.Babes, thank you for listening
to Babe Philosophy. If you enjoy the show, please

(01:01:07):
like, rate and subscribe wherever you listen and follow
us on Instagram at Babe dot Philosophy.
Later babes.