How are my teenage years affecting me now? with Sam Gibbs Morris

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What is up babes? We are super excited.
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(00:21):
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Woohoo on this episode of Babe Philosophy.
We talk about embodiment now andbeing like the truth seeker, the

(01:29):
the clean vessel, like the divine, the sacred, but
embodiment is not just for that.Embodiment happens for shadowy
stuff too. In that moment with the nervous
system and the ego are like whatworks equals familiarity, which
equals safety. Now you start seeking out
familiarity and safety and your body has a memory of like that
program worked. So I'm going to just keep doing
that. And then unconsciously, the next

(01:49):
three or four years, you just hammer it home.
This is Babe philosophy. A podcast where questions matter
more than answers, where liminalspaces are revered, and where
magic is practical. We are your hosts, Melly Wolf,
and live wickedly. And welcome to Bay Philosophy.

(02:20):
Hello, everybody. We are really excited about this
episode. I think we say that every
episode, but we are genuinely just always excited every
episode. We have a man here named Sam
Gibbs Morris and I actually met Sam through a medicine ceremony
that I was doing, and he and hispartner Drea held really
beautiful space. It was a really, really profound

(02:40):
experience for me. It was actually one of the, if
not the first time, I think it might have been the first time
that I had a divine masculine presence holding space and
ceremony with me. And it was, yeah, yeah, it was.
It was amazing and wonderful. And he's doing all this really
beautiful work and posted some stuff on Instagram.
And I was like, Mellie, we have to have him on the show.
So here he is now. But I'm not.
I'm going to stop blabbing aboutyou and give you an opportunity,

(03:02):
Sam, to just introduce yourself and let listeners know who you
are and what you're up to. Yeah.
Thank you so much. First of all, so good to see you
again. That was such a, that was a
profound experience. I remember that clearly.
So who I am now, my name is Sam Gibbs Morris.
I am a relationship coach and what I, when I say that, I mean,
I, I work with couples, but I doit through the kind of lane or

(03:25):
the avenue of the men. And so stepping, there's a lot
of men stepping back into leadership's a remembering of
who they were. A lot of the guys that come to
me have been through some reallykind of like emasculating,
terrible relationships, painful relationships.
And what that does is it createsthese clouds.
And So what I do is I hold this space for men to remember who

(03:45):
they are, who the fuck they are,and that way they can show up
better in relationships. And how I got here is like, it
was my own path falling on my face a lot failing at
relationships, you know, And again, like I also believe that
relationships, how we hold the intimate relationship in our
life is directly relatable to how we hold the rest of our
life. And so that's been true for me

(04:06):
and it's been true for a lot of the men that I work with.
Yeah, that's beautiful. And I think Millie and I
resonate with that. The things that we notice in our
relationships permeate everywhere.
I always say if you can hold your intimate relationship,
well, there's pretty much nothing that life outside your
house, your house can throw at you that you can't handle.
And I know for, for men, for, I'll speak from men like, for

(04:27):
men like the logic, reason and structure.
We like the thing in the lane and the, you know, and so women,
the feminine is not so much likethat.
And so if men can get their nervous system and their mind
around a a bigger expression andhold that, well, there's nothing
their business, their friends, their life can throw at them
that they they can't handle. And it all starts.

(04:50):
Who I like that. A little business advice.
Treat your woman well, get your shit together, you'll you'll be
good in business. Making a lot more money.
That's. Awesome, yeah.
OK, Well, today we are actually going to be talking about, I
think, a very interesting topic and it's not really a lens that
I've looked at before. So this will be really
interesting for me. And the question is, how are my

(05:12):
teenage wounds affecting me now?And when you scheduled your
interview, you had mentioned some things about the cool girl
persona that women have taken on, which is something we've
talked about here. It's something I am very
familiar with in myself. And then you were also talking
about some things that happen with young men and their

(05:33):
masculine development. So yeah, I honestly like, really
and truly, this question feels so big to me that I'm not even
really sure where to start. But maybe we could just start
with narrowing in on the men since that's kind of where your
specialty is. And really talking about, you
mentioned, you mentioned rejection.
So maybe we can kind of talk about how does rejection impact

(05:56):
young, young boys when they're in their teenage years?
Yeah, great. It's it's a great place to
start. You know, what I recognize, like
how I landed here was that I didso much work on my inner child
and then I skipped to like so much work on my 20 year old, 25
to like basically 20 to 38 whereI was, you know, full blown
addict. And so I skipped the 13 to 20

(06:17):
year old version of me and I hadall these repeating patterns
that would come back in and I'm like, where do these things come
from? Like I've sat with my inner
child, I've sat with my addict, I've healed the shame, I've done
all this. But and it wasn't until I was
like, wait, there's a teenager here that has been forgotten
about, that has been ignored. And when I started to sit with
this teenager, it was a lot of just straight up projection.

(06:38):
And what I, what I begin to notice like as I like, I'm a big
human behavior nerd. And so like, as I looked into
like the sociology of it and thepsychology of the human behavior
around a teenage boy, what are the like some of the first
things that come online in teenage years is like
interacting with the feminine. It is like, how do I go on a
date? Like the first date to the
movies or to, you know, like whatever it may be to the park.

(07:01):
And so in that like boys, men inthe the teenage years are kind
of like put in the put in the fire of rejection earlier than
the women are. And so, you know, it's it's up
to the like, it's the story as old as human civilization is
like, man, boy, go ask girl out,ask her to the dance.
And like I said, like it is the first time that that girl says,

(07:23):
no, What's that guy going to do?What's that boy going to do?
He's going to shut her. He's going to think he's broken.
He's going to Oh my God, what's wrong with me?
Like my my buddy, my best friendgot a date.
Why didn't I get one? What's wrong with me?
And I remember there's one moment in my teenage years when
I was literally witnessing all my friends had, you know, the
teenage girlfriends, like they were making out and doing all
the things and going to the movies And I would ask the girls

(07:46):
and there's always like, it was always a no or there was some
sort of deflection or whatever. And I was like, I asked my
buddies like, what, what is it like, why can't I get a
girlfriend? And he said to me, he said,
well, it's certainly not your personality.
And I was like, OK, so thereforeI, I now feel ugly, like I am
not an ugly kid. That's what I was making up

(08:06):
around different somehow physically.
And so, and I already had that because of all the sickness and
the asthma and the allergies that I had.
And so I also took on like this,this now rejection wound became
like, OK, so I just have to be nicer, like be.
And so the nice guy, the people pleasing, the fawning, you know,
the, the spineless man kind of like started to be birthed at

(08:28):
that point. And so, you know, knowing like
looking back at all the teenage stuff, it is a constantly, it's
the first time as men and women have the other experiences, but
the first time as men where we're like kind of asked to go
out into the world and kind of be something, you know, be like
step into like early manhood or step into like a sports team.
Like you try out for a sports team and they say, no, you're

(08:49):
going to, you know, you're not on varsity, you're on junior
varsity or you don't make the cut or your friends group
decides to, you know, doing whatteenage boys do is like, no, no,
no, we'll exclude you or we'll pick on you or bully you, like,
which was also an experience of mine.
And so there's just so much opportunity for rejection and a
teenage boys experience that it creates a very much, it creates

(09:11):
a deep, deep cut that a lot of men carry with them for a very
long time. I really felt that when you
said, you know, your friend was like, well, it's not your
personality. And he probably was trying to
say like, yeah, you're really cool.
And then you were like, oh, I must be ugly then.
And then that becoming like these roots to start to give
away your boundaries, yourself worth all of those things, which

(09:34):
I mean, man or woman, I'm sure everybody can resonate with that
on some level, yeah. Good boy, good girl.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you have a question, Millie?
Well, yeah, I'm so curious cuz that sounds like that sounds.
So I'm listening to your story and I'm projecting into like,

(09:55):
the experience of the masculine.And I'm feeling that, and I'm
seeing that. And I'm like, if it makes sense.
Yeah, I can see how that's true.And I'm also simultaneously
relating to the experience as a woman and from the feminine
perspective. So I'm really curious if we
could like just jump real quick to like the feminine wounding

(10:16):
and like your interpretation of that.
I'd love to hear like the counterpart or you know,
whatever, however you would phrase it for the feminine
aspect of the wound. Right.
So the feminine aspect of the wound is wanting to be
attractive, wanting to be the one that the guy asks that the
boy asks, right. So what is the what is the what
is the girl gonna do to become what she thinks is like the

(10:38):
attractive? It is like some, you know,
sometimes it can it can go all the way to be the sexual stuff,
but it can also be on a very more innocuous level of like,
I'm just going to be the cool girl.
I'm just going to be the girl that's like, you know, kind of a
tomboy that likes to hang out with the boys.
Like swears a lot, cool with everything, smokes cigarette.
I mean, whatever, you can throw anything at it that you want.
The fact is that the girl is nowgetting into this like

(11:00):
performance thing where she has to be the cool girl that is like
that doesn't that is OK with like maybe being a little more
masculine or, you know, wishy washy on her boundaries.
And that's physical, emotional, mental, whatever it is.
And so the girl learns that like, oh, when I do this, the
boys ask me out. And it could be it could be

(11:20):
aligned with her. It could be absolutely who she
is. But in most of the time it is
shelling it is because she doesn't know.
The boy doesn't know and the girl does not know who they are
at that point. All they know is they're
figuring some shit out and it, and this is where the wounding
comes in is that the girl will figure that we, what we're
figuring out. And what gets lost in this is
we're actually figuring out not so much who we are, but how, how
to get each other to like each other.

(11:42):
And so that comes like on the other side of that, the, the
shadow side of that is that a lot of like really, really
dangerous behaviors come in for the, the guy.
It's like for me, it was people pleasing, nice guy, good boy.
For the girl, it's the cool girl, the good girl.
It could be a number of things, but there's all these like,
maladapted behaviors that come online when we're, you know,
trying to navigate these teenageyears.

(12:05):
Yeah, that checks out. I can feel that in my body.
Yeah, Liv and I have talked about this a lot, too, and our
own personal experiences of thisand like the manifestations and
how they kind of came out a little bit differently with me
than with her. You know, Liv was very much the
cool girl, the tomboy like the more masculine energy and I it

(12:27):
was very much the like, I will bypass any any single one of my
needs and just try to look as pretty as possible and sleep
with whoever I need to to get the affirmation that I need to
be loved. So that's very, very, very, very
relevant. I'm OK, great.
So we've kind of broken down like high level what it is that,

(12:52):
you know, the teenage masculine and the teenage feminine is kind
of approaching and exploring in those really critical
developmental years. And then it seems like for my
own experience from Liv's experience, from a lot of
experiences that I've of people that I've interacted with, it's

(13:14):
like those experiences never like integrate.
They, they remain, they make a mark, they leave a scar.
And we're like, we kind of carrythat into our adult life.
And I am curious. And we could start with the
masculine maybe and then transition into the feminine.
But like, what's the relevance of, you know, like unpacking the

(13:39):
teenage wound when it comes to like our adult life like.
Yeah. Why?
Yeah, great question. You know, so I'll start with
like, why it sticks around. Short answer is it works.
It it worked for, you know, the teenage years like you got, like
you did, you figured out the thing and this is again, both
masculine or feminine. We figured out the thing that

(14:01):
got to the result that we wanted, which was attraction,
liking, love, sex, whatever it was.
And so then we're like, OK, cool.
This is how people do it. This is how my parents met.
This is how whatever. And going through life, we then
have this now adaptive strategy that has that serves us up to a
certain point when all of a sudden it stops.

(14:23):
And that's when it becomes really super painful.
And you look back and you're like, Oh my gosh, like I
actually this safety strategy orthis, this like this adaptive
strategy that I had actually wastraumatizing me.
It was actually wounding me in adeep level because what I lost
in that was who I truly AM, What, what I, what my true needs

(14:44):
are, you know, and, and it's, and again, like teenage years is
so vulnerable because it's just,there's such a, it's like when
the tribe for the tribe concept first kind of comes in, like we
leave our family, which is our immediate, you know, nuclear
family tribe. And we go out and we start
searching for, you know, what wecall a soul tribe or, you know,
as kids, it's just a group of friends.
And so it's like, OK, this is actually a little bit unsafe.

(15:08):
And depending on whether you grew up in like a smaller town
or a bigger city, like you're, you attract to the certain
people that you attract. And look at all these people
like me. What do I have to do to get
these people to like me, to accept me, to not exile me from
the tribe? And that's a deep, that's like,
that's a primal part of our brain, like very old part of the

(15:29):
neural pathways in our brain is tribe.
Tribe comes first, you know, it's don't be exiled in winter.
Don't be left on the plains in summer.
Like stay in the middle of the tribe.
And the way that looks and especially modern times is why,
why does why do why or how can Iget these people to like me?
And then going forward, so we learn, OK, we figured out it

(15:50):
takes a couple years, maybe a little crunchy at first, but we
figure out like, if I, for me, I'll speak for me if I'm the
Super nice guy, if I'm the, the nice, the kind of reserved, the,
the calm, the shy one, like I'm not putting myself at any risk
for danger or exhalation from the tribe.
And so going forward, like, that's OK.
So that's how I'm going to make friends in college.

(16:11):
That's how I'm going to make friends after college.
That's how I'm going to show up in the world.
And for me, that ended in that that ran its course way before I
acknowledged it. And what it led to me was a lot
like, I felt, I felt like the churnings of like this, like
this, I don't feel comfortable being social.
Like it feels like I don't know what to do when I get into these

(16:32):
social settings. Like, and this is like later on
it like post college mostly. And in the real world, and it
created a massive amount of social anxiety for me.
You know, I just, I felt like I had to put on this performance.
I felt that I felt the disconnect between like who I
was and this performance I needed to put on to get people
to to include me. And so, and this is nothing

(16:53):
about the rejection is like rejection is lack of inclusion.
So to be included, you know, I started drinking a lot because
the drinking one, it quieted thesocial anxiety, but it also on
the flip like it got that out ofthe way and I became the life of
the party and I could make jokesand talk to girls and you know,
we would have a good time. And so that led to a whole
nother slew of things now, whichwas arrests and hospital stays

(17:17):
and rehab trips and broken relationships and jobs all based
out of this need to be liked. Like just searching for this
like thing that I do, the searching to cover up this
rejection. I feel different wound that that
came to the surface in my teenage years.
Wow. It's it's so interesting to me
because so much of your path in your journey, I'm like, I did
that, I did that, I did that, I did that.

(17:39):
And all from. For me from a very similar lens
of like, I couldn't, no, no boyswere coming up to me and I
couldn't understand why. And I was told it wasn't my
personality, obviously. So then clearly I'm ugly.
And then like just developing this complex and even just
seeing, I think this is it's kind of getting me to like look

(18:00):
at something differently from a very recent relationship
experience that I had. Because again, I had done all of
the inner child work. I had been spending like the
last three years really diving into my feminine because I was
aware that it wasn't allowed. It wasn't safe.
I didn't even know what she, youknow, felt like, looked like any
of those things. I, I did the work to love my
body. I did the work to take care of

(18:21):
it. I feel really good in my skin
and I was still wearing the coolgirl armor so much so to the
point that I was like, I was in this really intense cycle for
like 3 years of really needing to prove my worth and really
needing to prove how attractive and desirable I am in the face
of circumstances that when I look at them now are so

(18:42):
obviously unwinnable. And, you know, even just
thinking about my ex, like I'm, I'm thinking about him through
this lens and what must have been going on for him in his
teenage years and how his patterns were also playing out
from this like fear of rejection.
And I, I almost, I, I think where I'm trying to like go with

(19:03):
this and, and kind of want to look at is, and if I'm like
chasing and trying to prove my love by being cool with
literally everything. Like I was OK with everything.
I almost never checked in with myself.
It wasn't until I'd burnt out orway after the fact that I'd be
like, that was awful. And I feel so violated and
laugh. So I'm chasing and then he is
trying to like stay still and then pushing me away and running

(19:26):
away, right? Like he's doing the avoidant
thing, I'm doing the anxious thing.
We were both a bit disorganized.So it was like flopping around
all over the place. And I'm just kind of wondering,
like, if I were to go back and have this conversation with you
while I was in the middle of it,what would I look for?
How would I know that's teenage live?
Because I again, like totally unaware until way after.

(19:50):
And then I was like, oh, I was being a cool girl.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know, this is like the
same thing like with the inner child like you.
So you kind of like you're therein the process of elimination
where like, OK, you've kind of handled like.
The immediate things, seemingly the inner child, because that's
the first place everybody goes in personal development.
What was happening from zero to 8 Great, we've all done it,

(20:12):
we've all been there. And it's like, wait, the
external my occurring world is still not still happening.
What's going on here? And so then it is like looking
at what the like, when was the first time?
It's always when was the first time that you can consciously
remember essentially selling yourself out to be cool, to be
like, to be the center of attraction or the, the object of

(20:32):
a man's affection. And so like looking back, like
look back, when was the first time that you really remember?
They're like, I don't want to dothat, but it's a guy like, OK,
I'll do it. Like, and then just like start
there, like the, and everyone know, like if you just ask
someone that question and have them take a breath, they're
like, Oh yeah, there. And fuck every time.
It's almost like it's the 14 years old, something about 14, I

(20:55):
don't know. It always comes up people's
heads when I ask them, but it's like, so it's like the 13 to 15
is when this like first experience comes on.
And then 15 to 1920 is when we kind of anchor it in.
And so then you can say like, OK, first time was my friend's
birthday party when I was 13. I remember I saw this guy and

(21:16):
I'm going to talk to him and he kind of like, but then I did
this and he liked me. OK, So I do more of that.
And then you can say like, how many now?
When was the next time? Probably the next day or like
therefore like very, very often thereafter.
And then you say like, okay, so then in, you know, college years
or like 18 to 22, I was like, I,I was, I was doing it like, I

(21:37):
didn't even know how I was doingit because it was, you became
the embodiment of essentially embodiment of a, of a maladapted
strategy. And we talk about embodiment now
being like the, the, the truth seeker, the, the clean vessel,
like the divine, the sacred, allthat.
But essentially embodiment is not just for that embodiment
happens for shadowy stuff too. And so in that moment when you
notice your body took a neuro tag, your nervous system was

(22:00):
like, oh, that, that works. So therefore now the nervous
system and the ego are like, what works equals familiarity,
which equals safety. And so then now you start
seeking out familiarity and safety and you know, and your
body has a memory of like that program worked.
So I'm going to just keep doing that.
And then again, like unconsciously, the next three or

(22:21):
four years, you just hammer it home.
Yes, it works. And it works over and over and
over again. That's why it's so hard to
unwind it because essentially like the in the body then like
we can consciously sit here and say this experience is awful.
And the thing in the body, though, the body's like this is
great. We love this.
It's familiar, it's safe, it's warm and fuzzy.

(22:44):
And, and so it, that's the unwinding of it is like, you
have to understand that this wasnot made, this thing, this
behavior was not, it was birthedout of honestly love and light
and safety seeking. And so then like, OK, so you
find out the first time you findout how it happened going
forward. And then when you get up closer
to the present day, you ask yourself, why have I held on to

(23:06):
it? Because that's the like, once
you figure out why and you see how it, how it, how it played
out in the past, let's say like 10 years, then you could say
like, OK, so after the after, like it's probably like you
said, three years. So let's say three years, we
kind of recognize like something's not right here, but
yet three more years goes by andyou're like, I'm still kind of

(23:26):
hanging on to it. And then it is then it becomes,
why am I hanging on to it? Like, so this was something that
was developed. And then after a while it
becomes that familiar hell. So the nervous system is always
in the throat, the back and forth of like a familiar hell,
which a lot of times could be things like scarcity,
depression, anxiety. I'm a good girl like that.

(23:46):
Like we can sit here and say it's awful, but the nervous
system's like, Nah, we like it. And so then there's over here,
the unfamiliar heaven, which is like the, the gap to, to, to
jump is how do you learn to trust the unfamiliar heaven so
that that becomes the norm? And it is.
It's looking back at all the waythat started, and then how it
served you for so long, and thenwhy you held onto it for so
long, and then learning to trustyourself in a new paradigm.

(24:11):
This is so good and so relatablefor like not even just
relational experience, but just like business experience, any
type of growth experience whatsoever, right?
It's like the phrase that's coming to me is the like, you
know, it's not your fault what happens to you, but it is your
responsibility what you do with that.
And and yeah, I, I myself can feel as you're speaking all of

(24:38):
the areas like I have this constant tug of war with myself
where I'm just like, I can see how I'm holding on to my
comfortable health. And the unfamiliar heaven, like
you said, is just so petrifying that I'm looking at down the
barrel at it and I'm just like crying and just sobbing and

(25:02):
freaking out because it's so terrifying.
And this is making me think of something that Liv and I
actually were just talking aboutlast night.
We we smoked a bowl together andwe just had some beautiful
conversation as we do. And what came up was the idea of
healing. And we talk about this so much
on this podcast. And there's just so much nuance

(25:25):
to the concept that it's like almost impossible to really like
narrow down in one simple kind of conversation or phrase.
But something that we we're exploring and playing with is
the idea that maybe like, maybe healing is the wrong word for
the thing that we're talking about.
That maybe healing isn't actually a thing when it comes

(25:48):
to personal development because the experiences you have.
And this is just like our hypothesis.
And I would love to hear your thoughts on it, Sam, because I
feel like you definitely have some expertise here.
Is like when we heal a thing, the idea is that like we make it
go away, right? Like healing is like a thing was
there and now it's not because it's healed.

(26:08):
Yeah. But we're like, OK, maybe a
better word for it is something like integration because, you
know, Liv was sharing that she had this moment.
Her dog passed away, you know, about a year ago now, I think,
or so. And she just had this.
How long? Six months.
Like 6 months yeah. Oh shit.
Timeline is so fucked up six months ago and she has done.

(26:33):
Yeah. She has done like so much work
though, so it's felt like a longtime, right?
Because she's just done so much work around processing this
grief with her dog. And she was very close to her
dog. Her dog was like her best
friend. And recently, just yesterday,

(26:54):
she had this surge of this griefof from her dog that just kind
of came out of nowhere and she was like crying, I'm sorry, mom,
I'm totally taking your story away from you.
But the point of it is, is that,and that's what catalyzed this
conversation is like, grief doesn't go like that.
I don't I don't think that griefthat Liv experiences with her
dog is ever going to go away. It's just a matter of

(27:16):
integrating it and having a different relationship with it.
So it doesn't dominate her entire life.
So bringing that into the context of our teenage years and
this rejection wound and this good girl wound and this cool
girl wound. Like, I'm just really curious
what your thoughts are in terms of how we integrate this, how we
heal this, right? Like or is healing it something

(27:37):
that's even possible? Yeah, I love all of that and
great and live. Sorry about your puppy.
I just got a new one and I have another story about that, but
for another day. Just like like a wave of grief
came in like 06 months. I I'm think I'm good, I'm done.
No, you're not It's not healing grief.
And, and to say that you like put the Ed on the end of it
healed is making it very linear,you know, and that's what, you

(28:00):
know, honestly, as humans, like,if things were linear, we'd
probably all be like, like, if, you know, business growth was
linear, we'd be like, great. But it's not it's, it's, it's
upward and it, and the, the pathis forward with healing, with
grief, with business, whatever. But within that, there's these
little things like this. And so you ended on a really
great point is that it's how we relate to it, because so often

(28:23):
what we want is, and I did this for a lot forever, like with my
addict, especially with my addict self.
But exile, No, gone see ya. And calling that healed like,
Oh, that's not I'm not that I'm that's not a part of me anymore.
Like it just like cutting it off, like essentially, you know,
pretending it doesn't exist. And there's no way that your dog

(28:43):
will not stop existing. The dog will never stop
existing. Your grief, A heartbreak will
never stop existing. Loss of a parent or a sibling or
a friend even will never stop. It doesn't mean they're stopping
existing. They still live in your heart
and your mind and in the quantum.
And so it is exactly that. It is how do we integrate the

(29:06):
the pain, the experience? The you know, and integrate is
to make whole, like integrity integrate is to become whole
with something. So whether it's, you know,
integrating A psychedelic experience or integrating grief,
it's still about how do we kind of like get back into wholeness
with the thing and wholeness is right relationship.

(29:28):
And so a lot of times, you know,for me, like I remember I was in
Sedona, AZ and I did this three hour breath work.
And I actually like I remember in the process I was, I had not
really gotten onto any plant medicine path or any real real.
It's my kind of like leaving a Aand going into more the
spirituality stuff. And I had this breath work and I
literally like in it took my attic self and took his hand and

(29:51):
walked him out to the desert andsaid bye, stay there, stay in
the desert. And I and I came back and like a
week later was in a planned medicine ceremony and that
addict was like right next to methe whole time, just like in my
ear, like shame, guilt, everything.
And so my buddy was like, yeah, it's because you tried to exile
him. So when we talk about healed, if

(30:12):
we want to be completely healed and complete, we can get to
completion. But the healing is the right
relationship. It is how do we learn to hold
that thing, whatever it is, in away that it no longer drives our
life, like you said, like it no longer runs the show.
And so when we we can kind of get to the point where we

(30:32):
welcome it back. And so the grief of the dog
comes back. Like it's like that's the dog
saying or the version of you that owned the dog is saying,
like, you know, hey, I can do some love right now.
Awesome. What do you need?
And just learning to like because like the more
resistance, the the resistance and the persistence, right?
And so the more that we can allow it in and just say,
because really the X line thing is like, it's not that we hate

(30:55):
that version unless it's that weeither don't want to be, don't
want to associate ourselves or we feel that we can't hold that.
And that's where a lot of life, that's where we reject a lot of
life is not because we don't want the thing, the unfamiliar
heaven. We don't it's not that we don't
want that thing. It's just that I don't think I
can hold that thing, you know? And so when we can stop

(31:16):
rejecting things out of fear of,of them taking over, it's
paradoxical, but it's true, is that they stop taking over.
And then they, because that's when they become integrated.
And then it's and then you become a that you become back.
We return to remember the wholeness of yourself and that's
the integration of it. And so, yeah, like healing.

(31:36):
It's funny, as you were saying, like I don't think I've used
that word in a long time, but because it's just a constant
process of recalibrating and re relating to parts of me that
keep coming up. And that's why that's how I got
to the teenage thing was like, there's a part of me that was
just being exiled. Yeah, I love that.
I feel like that's I love. What did you say?
You said the right relationship that feels, that feels really

(31:59):
true, that feels really good. I'm curious for the right.
So, OK, so somebody hearing thisright, let's like I'm the
audience, I'm listening to you talk about my teenage wound.
I'm relating to the teenage wound.
I'm saying, Oh yeah, I feel that.
Oh yeah, I had that experience. Oh yeah.
That comes up a lot in my adult life.
Oh yeah. That's really driving a lot of

(32:20):
my maladaptive behavior in my adult life.
OK, this concept of the right relationship, OK, this idea of
integration, OK, But there's like this gap, Like I get this,
I get this. But like how do I find the right
relationship? Yeah, the first thing is the
acknowledgement of it. Like, so I was telling Liv like
find the, the, the, the connect the dots, reverse engineer the

(32:43):
current experience of the maladaptive relationship, you
know, sabotaging relationships. So go back when was the first
time I started sabotaging relationships, you know, and
then where did that come from? And so the gap is then, because
this, the, the thing about this is, is that the reason that
people avoid these things is because their experience has
been that when this thing comes in, it takes over my life.

(33:06):
And that could mean like, I'm not to dinner with friends and
all of a sudden grief, all of a sudden rejection, all of a
sudden, like I don't like whatever comes in.
I got to be cool, you know, And so the people have this because
it what it does is these things will when not given the proper
space intentionally, they will find ways in and the ways in
they find are often not very convenient for us as a human

(33:28):
having the human experience, right.
So could be like, you know, justan out of it feels like this is
where like it feels out of the blue, like something comes in a
wound comes in a feeling comes in a belief, you know, with
friends, dinner with your mom, you know, having sex with your
partner like this out of the blue.
What the hell? Because that thing that needs to
come through has never given theproper space.

(33:48):
So once, and this is where you find help, this is where
therapy, coaching men's groups, women's circles, like these
places where you can go and, andallow these things to come
through that are safe and be witnessed in them and give them
the space they then become they,they start to become an
integrated in you because you'relike, OK, I went there and I

(34:09):
looked at my inner my, my teenage girl and I said, what do
you need right now? And I was surrounded by other
women and they were holding me and there was no judgement and
there was no resistance. And I was just there with it.
All of a sudden, that thing has less control over the life.
And so we feel better, more safein our bodies going through life
because we're not now we know that we actually essentially

(34:29):
have given the thing space. So we gain, we took our power
back from the thing. And so that means that, you
know, find places. The short answer is find places
that you can go and tell these stories and like look at these
things with trusted advisors, space holders, whatever it is,
But you have to intentionally give these things space so they
don't unintentionally take over and infiltrate your life.

(34:51):
I am thinking about in my own experience, you were really kind
of talking about like in the teenage years, especially in
this like interplay of, you know, being sexually interested
in another teenager, this kind of idea of rejection, kind of
sourcing and rooting in all of this behavior that happens
moving forward. And I've had so many experiences

(35:14):
of like kind of doing what you're talking about,
recognizing there's a gap going back to the first time that I
remember feeling that. And then eventually as I move
through and give it space, it almost feels like time collapses
and that version of me like popsback into consciousness And I
can remember, Oh my God, I remember thinking in my mind,
I'm going to do this, to get this and then falling asleep

(35:37):
inside of it, embodying it, becoming it.
And I think that's been a good description of like what's
happening in the internal perceptions that I'm having.
What I'm wondering because a lotof times for me, something is
like going awry externally or that used to be the case.

(35:57):
I pick up on things cuz I'm likepretty embodied now.
So I can kind of feel like oops things, somethings weird in my
back right now. Somethings, somethings going off
or like my breathing is really shallow right now.
Something's going off. But before I got to a place of
enough safety and trust in my nervous system to like live in
here, things that, you know, thepatterns show up, right?
And you're like, why is this keep happening to me?

(36:18):
What is this? I'm curious in your experience,
because you can't speak to everybody's, but in your
experience of your rejection wounding from your teenage
years, like what was that actually looking like?
And how was it being reflected in your external life?
And maybe you have examples fromyour coaching clients too, just
to maybe give people more like, oh shit, maybe that's my teenage
self. Yeah, so this is a great

(36:42):
question. I'm I'll stick with the
relationship stuff because that's that's where the
rejection really lives most of the time.
So part of the other side of that rejection wound that I
experienced as a kid where it's not your personality was a lot
of like, I don't trust, so I don't trust the feminine.
I don't trust the the world around me.
And so I became very avoidant inrelationships.

(37:05):
And so, you know, I would like come out of the gates hot and
then all of a sudden they, the, the girl gets close and we get
close and eventually it's like, wait a second too much.
You're seeing, you're seeing me,you're seeing something.
You're, I'm feeling something. I'm, I'm feeling that there's
like my program says, eventuallythere's a rejection going to
happen here. And So what I do is I avoid to

(37:27):
the point where I'm kind of protecting myself from that
rejection. So avoidance looks like making
up that the relationship is terrible or, you know, like
whatever. There's a one example I'm
thinking of where I was living in San Francisco and this I had
an amazing girlfriend, an amazing personal training
career. Like things were good.

(37:47):
But I was like in this, I was sosure that nothing was going to
last because of this teenage rejection wound and that I
made-up that she lived too far away, that it was too, too much.
I couldn't do it. And So what I what?
So I therefore will start to create problems in the
relationship like drop little grenades here and there and
maybe one big grenade which I actually moved away from San

(38:09):
Francisco and to honestly, if I'm being truthful, it was to
get away from her. It was to like to create a
reason why this relationship wasn't working.
And then so the rejection, firstof all causes avoidance.
This is the first step that I noticed in myself is that I
become very like standoffish, you know, like kind of avoiding
intimacy and, you know, spendinglike, oh, you have to, she had a

(38:30):
kid. So it's like, oh, you're a kid,
You want to hang out with your kid, right?
Go. And like totally not even like
my whole thing was like, not so much how do I create more time
with her, intimacy with her, buthow do I titrate myself or hold
myself at a certain distance where she can't come in here?
So eventually that leads to destruction, rupture.
Then about a month goes by afterI get over my little like, OK,

(38:52):
I'm by myself and I feel good and there's like nothing there.
I'm like, wait a second. Like I just reckon it like now I
feel like she'll go meet somebody else or something will
happen. And then I feel rejected.
I feel like, wait, like you should have stuck it out with
me. Like I create, I, I created a
problem that you were supposed to work through with me.
And so then for me, codependencykicks on and I become super

(39:14):
nice, super people pleasing. Like the maladaptive strategy
kicks on. So this like fear of rejection
comes from, it looks like avoidance.
And then once the rejection actually happens, the
maladaptive strategy of like, I don't know, I'll just be the
best fucking boyfriend you have ever had in your entire life.
Unsustainable level of goodness in this like like just complete
selling out of my own needs everything like all it's just

(39:36):
terrible. And so the the now now the
maladapt strategy of like this people pleasing this good boy,
this nice guy comes on. And so that then is honestly not
attractive to anybody. It's very much like pandering
puppy dog Mr. like no spine, nothing stands for nothing.
It's all the all the things you heard about with Mr. Nice guy.

(39:59):
And so eventually that thing runs.
It's about a three-year cycle For me, it was and so.
Eventually she's like, you know,I like she can feel the lack of
like like spying in me at that point, like you're like she's
like you you. I essentially don't have my own
nervous system. I don't have my own life if it's
not directly holding her hostageby being so nice.

(40:24):
And so that's how it would always play out in relationships
for me was like that avoidance, fear of rejection and then
codependency, which looks like people pleasing nice guy to win
her back, hold her and hope justhope she doesn't break off of
me, but she always would. Damn Mama, I'm wondering if you
have if you have eyes on like what yours looks like from that
fear of rejection. I think it might be cool if we

(40:46):
all share. Yeah, I I have AI think I've
spoken to this before, but I have a need to be useful.
So like, yeah, my codependent expression is let me cook for
you, let me clean for you, let me make myself useful for you so
that I know that you need me. Because if I'm doing the things

(41:08):
that you need done in life, thenI know you're not going to leave
because that like I've, I've crapped you because you need my
cooking, my cleaning, my service, right?
And then if I don't, that's something that I've actually
recently been working on a lot where I, you know, I've recently
told my partner and I'm like, still working on holding to that

(41:30):
for myself. It's like, baby, I'm not going
to cook for you. Like I, I, I love you.
I want to cook for you. And it's actually not clean.
It's like not a clean thing for me.
So I need to take a break from serving you in this this way,
not because I think cooking for you is bad, cleaning for you is
bad, taking care of you is bad, but because the energy that I'm

(41:51):
bringing the like, it's, it's this fear of you leaving me
that, that that's coming from. So it's like, if I stop, then
I'm afraid you're going to leaveme.
So that's probably not the rightmotive for doing these things
for you. And it sounds so fucking absurd
to say out loud, but it's just such a real embodied experience
for me. When I'm in it, that's mine.

(42:16):
Great awareness. I love it.
Yeah. And really honoring you for
like, here's my wound. I'm going to stare it right in
the face and be like, speak to it.
That's the non exiling. That's like, oh, I see you
version of me that needs to cookfor you and I'm going to hold
you. I'm going to stand right next to
you and trust that this man is not going to leave us.
And I'm going to show you that it's OK to show up clean in this

(42:38):
way. That's huge.
I love that. I love that putting the pieces
together. That was really that really
clicked for me just now, like thank you for that.
I feel very good about myself now.
I feel like maybe it's going to be a little easier to like a
whole bunch standard. So that was really powerful.
Yeah, that's awesome. So this, I'm really grateful

(43:02):
that we're having this conversation because I kind of
really just got eyes on, you know, my full circle kind of in
the way that you described yours, Sam.
Like what am I doing at the beginning?
And then how do how do I wash myself out?
I, I always start super cool andwith sex every single time.
So I and it's like, I literally like just saw this and I'm like,

(43:24):
how was I just blind to this thing?
Because I do the same thing overand over again and then I get to
the end and I'm like, how did this happen?
So I, you know, my first thing is like, you know, I'm, I'm
really, I'm, I'm pretty good with banter.
That's always where I start. And I don't think that none of
these things are bad things, right?
It's like keeping an eye on the fuel, if you will, and where I'm
coming from and my own boundaries because there's a

(43:45):
there's underneath the like, I'msuper chill.
It's like I'm clocking them and trying to anticipate their
desires and what version of the feminine they're interested in
because I'm super versatile. I can meet you there, whatever.
Instead of checking in and saying like, where's my energy
at? What kind?
What do I want to attract? Is this man making me feel good
about myself? Like I'm just like focus over

(44:07):
there. And so it's a lot of banter, a
lot of flirty, whatever. Takes me no time flat to throw
sex in. No time flat till, you know, do
things with my body, whatever, just to like put that out there.
I'm very big intense energy. So it takes nothing for me to
just be like, yeah, I'm hot and horny.
And so then from there, from there we like almost first date,

(44:28):
second date, whatever. We're just in that space.
Even if we're not having actual sex, we're exchanging that
energy in some way or other. And then that becomes kind of
the focus of the connection. And then once I, like, weasel my
way in there, then I start popping into the mothering, the
cleaning, the doing tasks for the like, hey, you could
optimize this process by da, da,da, da, right?

(44:49):
Like I'm mommy and manager all at the same time.
And I do all of that. And then eventually you were
talking about like the sustain, like you were being
unsustainably nice. Yeah.
That's what I like. The first year is like
unsustainable amounts of give, give, give, give, give, give,
give. And then I kind of start to
burnout. And then as I'm burnt out, I

(45:09):
have more nervous system trigger, more nervous system
rupture. I need space held.
But I haven't even vetted that this person has the capacity to
hold me because I've been holding me and them the whole
freaking time. And so then what ends up
happening is there they freak out and panic, their nervous
systems go into OverDrive. I'm all of a sudden a different
person to them. And then they, they avoid, they,

(45:33):
they move away. They're like, oh, hurricane,
like, let's go seek shelter elsewhere.
And then I feel abandoned and rejected over and over and over
again. And even in the burnout I'm
chasing, like I'm still trying to like, while I'm like haggard
and like there's like dark circles under my eyes and I like
can barely wake up at all and doanything.

(45:54):
I'm like still cleaning the bathroom.
I'm still like driving around and doing all the errands and
then eventually I'm like, well, none of my needs are being met
here, so I have to leave. You know, I'm like, none of my
needs are being met. So then I leave.
And that's my, that's my loop over and over and over again.
And it all comes from this like need to prove and chase, prove

(46:16):
that I'm worthy enough and then chase them and get them to also
validate that I'm worthy enough.It's yeah.
And, and a lot of this, like the, the very first, I don't, I
wasn't, I don't know, I'm sure Idid some stupid crap when I was
14, but 16 is my memory. And all the, all the girls had,
you know, boyfriends and I didn't, and I recognized there

(46:38):
was social equity in it. I wasn't all that interested
until then. And I was like, oh, there's
social equity, like the tribe thing and being a girl who has a
boyfriend. So I picked one of the guys in
my group of friends that I thought I actually consciously
chose him because I thought he was going to be safe and for
sure say yes. That didn't work out for me.
And I, I put the feelers out, I did the chasing.

(47:00):
I told my other guy friends because I was a bro girl.
So I told them I was like, oh, he can get it wet.
Let him know da da da. So first time I made out, I had
sex and it was awful and it was terrible.
And then he immediately he was like, let's go out.
And I was like, great. And then he broke up with me
immediately. Like it was just this big fat
mess. And I can trace back 17 years of
decisions that were based on that one choice and the

(47:23):
aftermath of that. Like I had one of those, like,
time collapsed and I was like, Oh my God, all the decisions I
just made in this last relationship, That's the origin
point. That's where they started.
Wow. Yeah, so.
That's that's the excavation. That's like the real like when
you can see the whole thing, notjust the moment or and like you

(47:45):
like immediately bridging that gap of like, wow, 17 years, holy
shit, over and over again. Yeah, and and then I'm like, why
am I 34 and single? Oh well, that's why that
answers. That question, yeah.
Yeah. Anyway, I think that I just
wanted to like share the nitty gritty, our experiences because

(48:07):
it can, I think it can be a little amorphous if we don't
talk about these things in like human terms.
I do this, I did this. Here's the behavior and not what
it looks like. Yeah, there's always
relatability in the human story.Absolutely, yeah.
For me it was. Yeah, you're welcome.
I was just one last thing for me, like 1 of the last parts of
the the I was going to say healing, but like completion

(48:29):
process, integration process with it.
Yeah, was grieving like I had togrieve.
Like it just this is this just happened right before my
marriage is that I recognized a pattern, a 20 year pattern of
the same three-year relationshipover and over since my last
marriage. And so I had to go back, I had
to go back and grieve like I made-up that I never had time to
grieve or I was the one leaving.So there's no grieving to be

(48:51):
done. And just like complete all those
grief loops that were left open by this behavior because these
are like, these are, these are things that lead to sudden
endings, unfinished business. And so going back to that, like
that's an open loop in our system.
And like we talked about closureand having a closure
conversation or, you know, one last time or all these things,
but there's nothing that really closes the loop like grieving

(49:13):
that experience. And so that was for me, the last
part of the integration process was like, how do I just let that
pain land that I avoided or let that like disappointment or
sadness or rejection that I experienced land?
Yeah. That is a great yeah.
And for me also, like forgiving myself, those have been like the

(49:35):
two most important things, is grieving it, feeling compassion
for the version of me who felt like she had to do that, and
then forgiving myself for violating myself or betraying
myself over and over and over again.
Yeah, there's a great book that talks that kind of touches on
all this. It's existential kink.
I don't know if you guys have read it.
Oh God, we. Love.
That it's so good God, it comes up like almost daily in my

(49:57):
conversations because it's just,it's this whole, it's the whole
thing, like all that, that thingthat it's 716 and the thing that
we this, this neurotag that happened, it almost immediately
slips into the unconscious. It just becomes, and then the
preference of that book is like,make the unconscious conscious
and it'll stop running your life.
And so, you know, it's the the thing I love the most is she

(50:19):
says experiencing is evidence ofwanting.
And so as much as we can say we hate this shit, it's here.
And so there's a part of us thatactually desires it.
And that's a through line, through relationships, through
money, through business, througheating, like whatever it is.
God damn it's such a hard reality to swallow.
By having. An advance of wanting.

(50:39):
Yeah. Thank you so much, Sam.
This was a really great conversation.
I really really appreciate your time.
Yeah, thank you both so much too.
It's like I was just as we were wrapping up here, I was like,
God, it's such, it's so great tosee two women doing this work
and being such in such divinity that you both are.
And like you're both so intelligent and so well spoken,

(51:01):
such good. Like you both have such a grasp
on all this stuff and like it's,it's the embodiment of it.
So just take a second to honor you 2 for the work you do and
the that you've done and do and the way you show up.
It's like this has been a super enjoyable conversation.
Wow. Thank you.

(51:21):
God bless you. So awesome.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Yeah, It means a lot for you.
Yeah. Like, yeah, we're slapped.
Yeah. That was really beautiful timing
for me. Thank you.
Well, before I go totally hairy brained and need to ground that,
can you just share with our listeners where they can find
you if they resonated with you and want to connect with you?

(51:44):
Yeah, absolutely. The best place to start is
Instagram. It's at Sam Gibbs Morris.
That's Gibbs. Pretty much everything is linked
there. Oh, OK, great.
Well, that makes it easy. And again, it'll be in the show
notes for anybody who wants to check him out.
I highly recommend following him.
I love when his reels pop up. And actually, just for our
listeners, we have a grimoire called The Power of Too Much.

(52:05):
And what caught my attention with Sam, he popped up on my
feet and he had posted a reel about the feminine too much
wound and how men can hold spaceto heal that and how they're
contributing to it. And I sent it to Mellie and I
was like, Oh my God, this is amazing.
So really, really beautiful person to follow.
Beautiful soul. Thank you again so much Sam.
Please remember, rate US, like us, subscribe, share your

(52:29):
friends, tell your mom, tell your wives later babe.
Thank you later. Thank you for listening to Babe
Philosophy. If you enjoy the show, please
like, rate and subscribe wherever you listen and follow
us on Instagram at Babe dot Philosophy.
Later babes.

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How are my teenage years affecting me now? with Sam Gibbs Morris

Fudd Around And Find Out