Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What is up babes? We are super excited.
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(00:21):
reflection, stories, our own experience, and some rituals in
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Per the Babe Philosophy brand, we are calling your inner
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So if you go to Babe. Philosophy.com Right there on
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(00:44):
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(01:05):
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Woohoo, this is babe philosophy.The podcast where questions
(01:29):
matter more than answers, where liminal spaces are revered, and
where magic is practical. We are your hosts, Mellie Wolf,
and live wickedly. We're back.
Welcome to Faith Philosophy. We're here for another episode.
(01:52):
And today we have Kate Gordon asa guest interviewee.
Kate is my neighbor who I just told Liv that I have not
actually officially met, but she's deep in women's work and
we thought it would be really cool to have her on the podcast.
Hi, Kate. Would you tell us a little about
yourself? Hi.
(02:13):
Happy to be here. A little about me.
I'm a Doctor Who's from medicineand after the last, well, I
guess I started maybe eight years in my Easter medicine
journey, I realized that one of the things that was keeping my
patients from really getting well was the way that they were
doing relationship. And so I got interested in
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intimacy and relationship coaching and embodiment work and
nervous system, deeper nervous system work.
So these days I do a combinationof all those things and feel
particularly passionate about working with women so that they
can create lives in which they can really be well and thrive.
Beautiful. Thank you.
(02:58):
So today we are going to get into the question of whether or
not it is possible to fully healas per Kate's expertise.
I feel like this is a really relevant topic.
So and I feel like it's a relevant topic in more ways than
one. Per your background, Kate, you
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are in functional medicine on like the physiological level of
healing and you are also in likewomen's work and relationship
work and the more like meta kindof psychosocial aspect of
healing. So I would love to just kind of
like get into a little bit abouthow those differentiate for you
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and if it all or if it's all kind of like encompassed in one.
Like, what are we talking about when we're talking about
healing? Yeah.
I think that's a great question and certainly a question that
I've been deep in contemplation around in my career because my
job is to facilitate healing. And so as I've explored that in
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different chapters of my career,sort of different questions have
arisen for me around what does it mean to heal and do we heal?
And is the whole concept even real?
And what it like, what is healing?
So many directions you could go with that.
I think that one thing I see very clearly in our Western
culture in particular is we really have this obsession with
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healing as a goal to reach. Like there's an arrival point.
We're gonna heal, we're gonna dothe get there and then
everything will be great. And then it's like then we're
then it's static. If we've healed and we're
complete. And you see how that infiltrates
our entire healthcare system. You see how it it fuels the
entire health and Wellness industry as being like an
achievement industry as opposed to like an ongoing process.
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And, and I think it keeps peoplereally stuck in healing as
opposed to living. Like people never graduate out
of healing and then their whole life becomes around doing work
as opposed to living, which to me is not the point.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just going to say
that's really beautifully. And Will said.
And we've actually talked about this a little bit on the show in
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a previous episode about like, can healing be toxic?
Because we have both fallen into, and I was in it for a
while without realizing what you're talking about, like the
achievement of healing and then feeling like I'm going to check
all of these boxes. And once these boxes are
checked, I'm going to have the life of my dreams, which I think
is essentially what we got sold as kids anyway, about how things
work. So I love the way that you're
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framing this and that you're bringing this to people's
attention. I'm actually, I'm literally in
the middle of like a mess that Imade in a relationship of mine,
like right now. So I'm like, Oh, this is great.
And one of the things that I'm running into and I, I'm just
like wondering what you notice about this mindset in general
and especially with women. I'm watching myself having made
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a mess because I took a risk andI wanted to step outside of a
pattern. And I did it from like a wounded
version of me and wasn't aware of that until I made the mess.
And then I was like, Oh God, this is like a, this is like a
wounded part of me. And what's happening is like
these boxes, like these narratives that I've had to keep
myself safe, to prevent myself from making messes like this,
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are freaking out and freaking out about the fact that I'm not
healed enough to have even interacted with this person.
And how dare I have even begun walking down this road and to be
in a relationship at all of any sort of variety.
And like, we're having this backand forth conversation right
now. And there's like this part of me
that's like, you're not, you're not eligible to be in intimacy
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with anyone right now. What were you thinking?
And then there's this other partof me that's like, well, how am
I going to learn how to do this if I don't ever do this?
So I'm actually just wondering, like I'm sure there are so many
people who feel that way, how you coach women in like being
available but also being honest about capacity and not letting,
not letting themselves limit themselves from living, but also
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being responsible about where you're at and what you have
capacity for. Yeah, First of all, I'm sorry
that you're in that spot where you're kind of battling with the
part of you that's like, maybe I, I shouldn't even, you know,
expose other people to my shit because I'm not healed enough.
It's sort of that shame part that's like, I don't know how to
do it perfectly, so I shouldn't even try or like I'm not healed
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enough to whatever. I I get that the narrative can
keep us from practicing and frombeing great, from living.
And I did that for a long time too.
I mean, I was such a obviously because I'm in this line of
work, but like such a kind of healing junkie and all the
realms, like the amount of therapy I've done is stupid.
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He's like, I have a PhD in somatic therapy and that's why I
coach people now, not literally,but like from the amount that
I've done for myself, right. And at some point, that can be a
safe space to not actually have to do the thing and experience
with your experience, which is like, relationships are messy
and life is messy and fucking upand realizing like, oh shit, I
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hurt someone or hurt myself, or I did show up for my wounding.
Like that's inevitable. And that's part of it.
And so to me, it's not that you have to give, never do that.
It's like, do you have the resilience to not make yourself
the enemy when that happens? Like, can you be on your own
team even when you fucked up? And that's what we're what I'm
hoping people get to the point of like, can you have your own
back no matter what happens? Can you have your own back in
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the moment where you're like, OK, like I brought in some stuff
and the situation that was like,not my highest self and it's OK.
Like, of course you're allowed to make mistakes.
And do we know how to do healthyrepair?
And can we take accountability? And those are the skills that,
to me, are worth cultivating. Yeah, that.
Was fucking dope. I, you know, can we be on our
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own team even when we fuck up? I'm I'm going to like plant that
seed. Am I being on my own team?
Thank you. Yeah, what's coming through for
me is like, how would you treat your friend or like your best
friend, right? Like if, if you know, if Liv
does something fucked up, I'm going to be like, yo, bitch, you
fucked up. And also, I still love you, you
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know, so I feel like treating yourself as, I mean, I, I give
her feedback all the time where I'm like, hey, Mama, you're
probably not on the right track with this one and it's OK.
But like, you know, I love you and I, I trust that you're gonna
like course correct. And I feel like that's a really
good reminder to have the same self talk.
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I'm like, OK, I need to talk. I mean, for me, it's like I need
to talk to Mellie the way I talkto Liv 'cause I get so thrown
off course with that for myself.Or when I talk to myself, it's
like, you dumb bitch, you fuck this up, you're horrible, you're
a bad person. How could you have done that?
Oh my God, you're so stupid. How did you fall back into this
pattern, da da, da, da da. And it just becomes this like
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downward spiral instead of like a, OK, let's make space for this
and let's let this happen. And there's something that we
recently spoke to and I feel like it applies in this context
where it's like when we do that.And I'm curious what your advice
is on this. Kate is like one, somebody that
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we had on the podcast recently said that if you don't have
belief in yourself, borrow belief from somebody else.
And I feel like this is so relevant in this space as well
because, you know, really live helps me to remember my power a
lot. And like helps me to create that
space for me. Like I will be self sabotaging
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and she'll see me and notice it and she'll say, hey, Mama, you
know, like, let's give Mellie a little space to, to mess up.
And I'm really curious, 'cause you have group spaces where you
do this. And, and I'm imagining that
that's where a lot of women can find like borrowed space,
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borrowed permission to mess up. Curious if you have any thoughts
or reflections on that idea. Yeah, I love that idea of
borrowing. It's sort of like if you can't
be your own best friend and ally, This is why we have other
people to remind us, like you said, and group spaces and and
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having mentors or therapists or coaches.
I think it's so important because it teaches us how to be,
how to adopt that kind of kind allies ship with ourselves
because we get to watch other people do it for us and we get
to see like, oh, I'm allowed to make mistake and still receive
love. And I know for me, it was the
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first kind of coach therapist who was able to really show up
for me in that space of unconditional positive regard
that helped me create an imprintfor like, oh, this is what
secure attachment is. And we only learn that for
getting to do it with people. And so this is to lives point
around how do we know, you know,if we should be like doing more
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work or if we're like, we're allowed to do relationship and
have it be messy. And part of it is being really
conscientious of who we're choosing to do relationship
with, right? So that we're repatterning
around secure attachment and notre traumatizing ourselves or
like not choosing to be in relationship with people who are
actually going to perpetuate thedysfunction or like our dynamic
of dysfunction. And when you show up in curated
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group spaces, if you're doing your due diligence and choosing
good spaces where someone is actually creating an environment
that is self responsible, that'sself accountable, that's
attuned, that's transparent, right?
That has all these qualities of healthy intimacy, that helps us
practice, right? It's like a little micro dose of
how do we do it? Then when we're like in the high
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stakes intimate partnership where all of our stuff is up.
And I think it's so important that we have places in our lives
where we can, where it's like set up for us to succeed before
we're kind of out in the wild orlike while we're out in the wild
that we have these other zones that are a little bit more like
maybe aren't quite. The lessons aren't quite as
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harsh as our other relate, like relationship lessons that happen
especially in romantic partnership.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I actually, I'm, I'm really thinking about, you said
something at the beginning aboutyou were, you know, in
functional medicine and you werenoticing that the actual
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progress and longevity of their healing was dependent on like
the relationships they were. And you were noticing their
relationships were like backtracking them or undermining
them. And I'm really curious like what
that looks like. And I, I don't even want to like
be too specific. I'd really just like to hear
like what you were noticing and how you've kind of like helped
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people bridge those gaps. Yeah, I think about it from, I
think polyvagal theory, nervous system theory is such a good way
to understand why relationships are so influential in our
physical health and our ability to heal.
But essentially, if someone's coming into me and they've got
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an autoimmune disease or they'vegot chronic pain and their
nervous system is in a perpetualstate of dysregulation because
they're in an insecurely attached relationship, it's
really hard no matter what I do with them, for them to actually
heal and sustain that healing. So in order for our bodies, you
know, our bodies heal when we'reparasympathetic dominant, when
we're ventral dominant in terms of our nervous system state.
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And my job, I think I'm really going to support someone is not
just to like give them a supplement or to do this testing
and analyze their hormones, but to go, OK, big picture.
Like what's the environment in which you're existing in?
And is it an environment in which you can stay ventral
dominant? Like is it an environment in
which you can feel, you know, the majority of the time safe
and regulated? And if not, why not?
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And that question, the answer tothat question for most people is
because of the way that they feel inside of the
relationships, whether it's their work relationship to work
relationship with their parents,relationship with their partner,
there's some primary relationship in their lives in
which there is a constant stressresponse happening and we just
can't physically heal and stay well when that's part of the
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picture. So to me, like root cause, root
cause is not like, oh, your cortisol is too high.
It's like, well, why is your cortisol too high?
And so for so many people, again, if they didn't grow up in
a family in which they really just got natural secure
attachment, then they're having to learn that as an adult.
And it's the most stressful experience we have is intimacy
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that doesn't feel secure. So to me it felt important to
start to teach those skills. So in the space, cause you're
making me think of like, you know, when you talk about
physiologically healing, it's like, yeah, you're not going to
heal if you're in a stress response on the physiological
level because your body is just like trying to survive.
And I love that you're touching on the point that like, this is
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also true in relational dynamic where if you are in a constantly
stressful state at home, you're not going to be able to really
progress because you are just trying to survive.
And, you know, for the physiological aspect of that,
it's like, OK, doctor's orders are like, rest, get better
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sleep, go to the gym, whatever, go for walks, like take care of
your, you know, parasympathetic and get into that space.
But then what do you tell peoplewhen they are struggling with
their relational dynamics? It's like, it's not as
straightforward to induce that parasympathetic state when
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you're like, I don't feel safe at home.
Yeah, great. And to your point, that's what I
was bumping up against. Just, you know, I got people
sleeping well and they were exercising and they were eating
well. And that will get you so far.
But ultimately, right, if you're, if you're feeling
disconnected from your husband, if you're never having sex, if
you're worried they're cheating on you, whatever.
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It doesn't matter if you have a perfect lifestyle, like that's
enough of a source of stress that you're not going to feel
well and people will be sick purely from these things.
So I sort of believe now that all chronic illness is that it's
root attachment issues and attachment bleeding.
And so to me, it's like people are actually healthy and well,
even if they're drinking, even if they're not exercising, even
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if they're diet shit, they're healthy and well when they're
securely connected in relationship.
And you see that when you look at like, these broad studies of
like, why are the Italians living in this tiny, you know,
town living to be 100 when they're all whatever, like
eating? Drinking wine, anything.
Possible. Every day we're like, why are
they doing so well? Know that above everything else,
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it's our relationships that really determine if we're
healthy. So because I care about people
feeling good enough in their lives to enjoy them, I was like,
all right, I can't solely focus on, you know, sleep and diet and
supplements and these things. I have to actually focus on
relationships. And so maybe more specifically
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to answer your question, is someone stressed in their
relationship? Like, what do we do?
To me it comes down to which protective mechanisms and
strategies are you defaulting tounder stress that are not
creating intimacy. What would be an example?
Of that well, so I'll talk aboutmyself when I'm super stressed
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in my relationship, one of my default mechanisms is to start
to feel claustrophobic and be like, Oh my God, I can't
breathe. There's too like you need too
much from me. I'm like, I gotta get my kind of
fear of engulfment gets really activated because I had a mom
who was like pretty engulfing. And so when I'm stressed, I
default to my childhood programming, which is like, Oh
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my God, there's not going to be any space for my feelings.
There's no space for my knee. It's like have to like fight to
take up enough room to like be OK, right?
And that will just come out because that's the default
groove. That's like that's the mechanism
that I've practiced the most. And so even though I know all
the things and I don't know whatit's like, we have to put the
reps in to have our default whenwe're stressed to be something
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else. And it takes years, but we can
start to build more awareness that at least we have a little
bit more of a choice point in moments where we can go, OK, I
know this about myself, that when I get stressed, this is
what happens. And so then we get to the point
where we're like, we catch it while it's happening.
We can kind of intervene. And then eventually we get to
the point where we kind of anticipate it's gonna happen.
And so we intervene before the pattern even starts.
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But to me, it's so much around noticing and having the
self-awareness. Like, what are your default
mechanisms? Like let's just have the road
map for your system. What did you learn?
What are you going to revert to?And then how do we understand
those as just like natural ways you learn to stay safe.
There's no shame, there's no like you're not bad.
And then how do we practice other patterns, other
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strategies? I super identified with that
claustrophobia. I was like, yeah, I also had an
engulfing mother. So I'm sitting here and one of
the biggest loops I've gotten into and, you know, having just
gotten out of just a super toxicdynamic and a thing that I was
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spinning out in and getting stuck in was like, I have no
fucking clue what the fuck secure attachment is.
I don't know, I've never had it.I mean, I, I feel like I'm
developing that with my girlfriends, but when it comes
to men in particular, but certainly romantic partnership,
no matter the gender, I don't, it's like a big fat question
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mark. I'm like out in the jungle on my
own and I have like a butterfly net and then a Tiger's in front
of me and I'm like, I'm gonna get ya.
I have no fucking clue what I'm doing.
So when you say that I'm like, how do I, I'm like, I'm thinking
about like, I don't know what that is.
And I also don't even think I really understand what like what
it, what is the, what is the I'mon the healing path of knowing
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it's ever evolving in that space.
I'd just love to have a little more context for that for myself
and everyone who's listening. I think that if we didn't, if we
didn't grow up with an experience of secure attachment,
it's not, you know, it's not like we're doomed to always
trend and people use anxious andavoiding terminology, which I
think is way too. I don't think they're helpful.
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I have a girlfriend who says some people are more the
champion of space and some people are more the champion of
connection. And to me, that's a way better
frame for understanding kind of default and relationship.
Like there's always going to be someone who's championing space.
There's always going to be someone who's championing
connection and depending on the dynamic that can switch, you
could be that person who's championing space in a
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particular dynamic and then another dynamic.
You're the person that's championing connection.
And so if we don't know what secure attachment feels like, so
we didn't really have it, then we get to earn it essentially
and earn secure attachment's a real thing, which is we we do it
through creating that in our adult lives and, and building
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the imprint through practice. And I think ultimately we do it
when we find people who are securely attached, who have had
that background and or have earned it themselves through
their personal work. And we get into intimate
relationships, whether they're friendships or mentorships or
therapeutic relationships with those people.
And then we start to have, we start to know what it feels
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like. And you said you've had it with
friends. You know what it feels like
there. Yeah.
I feel, I feel like Mellie and Iare, we've gotten through that.
Like there's rupture and repair,rupture and repair to the point
where I trust it so much that I'm not.
I don't pop into all of my things the way that I might in
another container where I don't feel as safe.
(23:00):
Yeah, which is beautiful, right?You know, that rupture and
repair cycles are a healthy, normal, inherent part of
relationship. And even just having that
awareness, I think it's huge forpeople because so many of the
clients who come to me are terrified of conflict because
conflict when they grew up meanttotal loss of connection or like
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abuse, right? Or like it was really a genuine
threat. And we have to start to be able
to have some capacity to do conflict because all intimacy,
all healthy intimacy requires rupture repair cycles.
It's how you build trust. Like you just spoke to, we
actually can't build trust in relationship without doing
rupture and repair. It's the only way we build
trust. So if you think you trust
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someone and you've never had a rupture moment, you don't trust
them. You trust an idea of you're in a
fantasy with them. Oh.
That landed. And so, you know, step #1 like,
let's dispel the illusion that there's some relationship that
you're going to find where you don't have to go through rupture
repair cycles. And I think a lot of women are
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still living in that fantasy of like, there's some perfect
relationship or they're going tobecome healed enough, or they
don't ever have to experience the pain of a rupture repair or
the rupture part of the process,right?
And or they don't actually know how to do repair.
And so ruptures are detrimental because there's no repair
skills. And so it's like a rupture
happens and we're like, well, I guess that's the end of the
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relationship, which inherently is gonna make you feel insecure
in relationships. If you don't trust your ability
to be in conflict and you don't trust your ability to do repair,
then relationships are really scary.
Yeah, you're making Yeah, this is so great 'cause you're
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bringing up all of mine and Liv's like live, live
experiences that we're having inreal time where these things are
coming through. And I recently had a rupture
with a girlfriend that was so jarring for me because you know,
I, you know, I know relationshipwhere like my relationship with
(25:06):
live where we rupture and repairall the time.
And I've just recently had this experience with a girlfriend who
is not well versed in the cycle of rupture and repair.
And for her rupture is termination of relationship.
And, you know, we are having this, you know, back and forth
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in the rupture and she, you know, messaged me saying, like,
I'm heartbroken that this is theend.
And I was like, wait, what? Like, I don't want to.
Like I was like, what do you mean this is the end?
Like that you're losing. She's like, I'm losing you and
losing the relationship. And I'm like, you know, this
isn't for me. It was like, OK, clearly this is
a version of our an iteration that this chapter needs to close
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because it's no longer serving us as it is.
And for me, the way I see that is an invitation to step into a
chapter that feels nourishing for the versions of ourselves
that we are now, which we're notwho we were when we first
created that connection. And now that trying to uphold
that for ourselves is feeling out of integrity and out of
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alignment. So there's this rupture that's
happening as a result. And she's perceiving that this
means that our relationship has to end.
And I'm like, Oh my God, like I'm like, I, I felt that.
I felt exactly what you said, Kate, where I'm like, oh, maybe
rupture does mean terminating relationship.
And now I'm realizing I'm just connecting the dots right now
(26:38):
because Liv is about to move to Boulder and I'm having all of
these feelings coming up around it because I'm afraid that us
being in close proximity is going to cause more frequent
rupture. And because of this experience I
had with this woman recently, I'm afraid that that means that
our relationships going to end. But now, Kate, you're like
putting this actual like box around this experience that's
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happening. That's like helping me to
understand like what my brain isdoing.
And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm like, it's, it's crazy because
you can feel the rupture and repair in one area and then in
another area. It cannot be that way.
And then that kind of like colors the way that I'm seeing
my other relationship that I know is safe.
(27:24):
So it's really interesting how like, it's like bleeding into my
lived experience, even though I perceive myself as somebody who
understands rupture and repair is healthy.
And I'm kind of like backtracking in that space.
And I, I mean, I'm, I'd love anykind of reflection on like your
observation of that happening orif that's a thing that you are
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versed in at all, where it's like, maybe we have it in
certain areas and other areas wedon't.
And then that kind of like bleeds into just the way we
perceive the world. Because I feel like a lot of
times too, rupture and repair isso scary in certain containers,
like in partnerships, but then maybe it isn't as scary with
(28:07):
girlfriends, you know, like it'snot all the same.
The the playing field's not equal.
Totally not. I mean, you're speaking into
something that I think is reallyimportant, which is part of how
we healthfully discern how deep an intimacy to go with someone
is in assessing someone's capacity to be in rupture and
repair cycles with us in a way that works for us, right?
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Everyone's going to have different styles and different
ways that they interact in that space.
And in this particular instance,like you're mentioning with your
girlfriend, if if, if it turns out that her capacity to be in
this process with you is pretty limited and she just can't or
won't kind of be in the messy part with you to find a path
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forward. Like that's an indication that
you can't be at the level intimacy moving forward that
person, right? That's your sign.
Like, oh, it's not going to workto be as close with this person.
And that's to me. Like, this is how you sort of
decide who's gonna be your best friend, who's gonna be more of
an acquaintance, who's the man that you're gonna date casually
(29:12):
versus the man that you're gonnado life with, right?
This should all be based on you paying attention inside of
moments of rupture. Like how much capacity does this
person have to do conflict? How do they show up in conflict?
Or is there stuff that gets activated in conflict?
Something I can work with because we all have stuff and
you're sort of assessing like doI have capacity for what you're
(29:35):
going to bring in conflict like you're abandoned parts or you're
do you get mean when you're scared?
Do you get avoiding? And can I, can I handle that
based on my wounding? And that's ultimately what
determines who we get close to and not whether it's intimate
partnership or friendship. And certainly I've experienced
too, if there's a really gnarly friend breakup also in the past
(30:00):
year and like totally took me bysurprise and was like deeply
painful. Someone I've gotten really,
really close with and trusted entirely.
And then the second there was real conflict realized, like,
oh, I've misjudged this person'scapacity to do conflict and
their wounding has them, you know, like do a lot of
(30:23):
projecting and a lot of villainizing and a lot of like
withdrawing. There's a lot of unprocessed
shame here. And the whole thing was like,
you kind of mentioned it sort ofshook me for a bit in how I was
assessing all of my my safety and all of my relationships
where I was going. Like, oh, am I miss, like,
should I not be trusting all these other people as deeply as
I am? Because here's this person that
(30:45):
I thought was really safe to be in intimacy with.
And now it feels so unsafe. So yeah, of course, in those
moments, it has you a little like on your heels, I think
about because it's risky. Like ultimately intimacy is
risky. That's part of it, right?
Like, ultimately, we're all going to get our heart broken in
a million ways throughout life in all kinds of relationships,
(31:06):
and there isn't any way to prevent that is the truth.
And it's in these moments that we get reminded that we're not
fully in control. No, I.
Need control. Yeah, that's so good.
And that's making me think of like, you know, anything in
life. But like right now, I've been
looking at a lot of like just starting business models, mental
(31:30):
models, and it's really like a spiritual path to be like being
an entrepreneur and starting a business.
And, you know, one of the, one of the most like beautiful
pieces of advice that I feel like I've received so far is
like, you know, hurry up and andfail so you can win.
You know, don't, don't avoid thefailures because that ensures
(31:52):
your failure. You know, it's like, but if you
can just fucking send it into the space of like, OK, like I am
going to learn a lot from all ofmy failures, which is ultimately
going to result in my win. And really embracing that is
just like the thing that we're doing, which is life.
It's like you can't protect yourself.
(32:14):
You're protecting yourself from your win, if anything.
And I just really love that reframe because it kind of makes
it like, all right, if this is happening, if this is an
inevitability, bring it on. You know, whereas like if you
believe, if you have this illusion of like, oh, I can
control this, I can protect myself from this, then you never
(32:34):
get anywhere. Yeah, yeah.
And that's a great analogy. I mean, it's so true that
entrepreneurship is a spiritual.It's like spiritual boot camp.
And he thinks so much and so much willingness, so much ego
death, right, Because which realintimacy does too, right?
They're exactly the same. Like real intimacy.
It takes so much ego death. You're constantly having to like
(32:54):
see the cringiest parts of yourself if you're really
showing up and doing it and going like, did I really just
like show up like that? Did I really just do that in
that argument that I really just.
And then like trust, like you have to again have your own back
enough that you can go. And I'm still worthy of love and
I'm still worthy of success and still worthy of connection, even
(33:15):
though and continue to show up for it, which takes a lot of
resilience. OK, I love this.
I'm going through this is like the perfect conversation for me
right now. You know, I'm going through I'm
really thinking about this. Is it possible to fully heal and
my current like romantic experience and thinking about
(33:37):
this concept that we've just kind of talked about, which is
like get the reps in. And also a recent choice that I
made in interacting with a man, I noticed my discernment was
not, it was it was off. I caught it way quicker.
I caught the thing way, way, wayquicker.
But I, you know, went to sleep on myself in that way.
(33:58):
And I've been really sitting around like debating, like
taking some kind of like vow of celibacy for like a period of
time and taking that space and shifting my focus.
And there's also this part of methat's like kicking and
screaming and is like, no, I don't want to cut off access to
a possibility. What if I meet a coupon in the
coffee shop? What if?
(34:20):
And I'm, I'm also having this conversation of like, OK, I, I
know I can't be fully healed because that's like a false
concept. It's like a logical fallacy.
And at the same time, I keep, I keep trying to make the same
layup and missing the shots. So like, where what do I do in
this space? And I'm just kind of curious,
you know, if you have any reflections or like how you
(34:41):
would think about that for someone who's in my spot where
they're like, I want my person, but I'm clearly not attracting
the person that I want. So like what do I do here?
Yeah, yes, beautiful question and I've been there.
I still empathize and I also, I was at that moment of, oh, would
(35:01):
it serve me to take a break right from dating and really
focus on some pieces that are just for me and also wanted was
in so much resistance to doing that because of feeling like
like, but then I'm missing opportunities or I'm wasting
time. I'm already excellent.
You know, I'm already this old and like, I don't know, I'm
(35:23):
running out of time or whatever,all the things, but I'm a huge
advocate. I call it, my teacher calls it
the masculine cleanse for a feminine cleanse.
And I did a formal masculine cleanse a couple years ago and
it was incredibly helpful. And so I'll share a little bit
about what that is in case people are listening and
thinking like, I need a masculine cleanse.
If I would say anyone who's never done 1, you need one.
(35:44):
So if you've never taken a period of time where you've been
fully single, where you were notflirting, you were not dating,
you were not having sex, you were not seeking validation from
men in any way, shape or form, then yes, you need one.
It's such an important initiation as a woman to really
deeply trust that you do not, that you're not like using that
attention and praise as oxygen, that you're not outsourcing your
(36:06):
sense of okayness on that because it creates dynamics in
which we're doing transactional love and we actually can't show
up for the healthy thing when we're stuck in that.
And so it's so valuable to take a period of time where you're
like, I'm going to cut myself off from this thing that I use
as a crutch and like really learn how to source safety and
worthiness inside my system and like set up the tools and
(36:27):
support systems to be that woman.
And it's so powerful. It will absolutely shift what
you attract and what you will tolerate because you won't be
engaging from a place of neediness, loneliness, like
choose me, pick me, want me. You're interacting from your
queen. That's like, what is my
standard? And if it's not it, I don't need
(36:49):
you. Like I'm good on my own.
Actually much more empowered spot to date from.
Yeah, that sounds way better andI appreciate the clarity in the
container. And is like four months just
what you intuitively did for yourself or is there some like
science or like other deeper thought to doing a four month
container versus some other length?
So three months is really the minimum.
(37:10):
It takes often that long before the real stuff even comes up.
It's like you'll have month one where people are sort of in
there like withdrawal and like it's hard.
And then usually month 2, month three people are sort of like,
oh, this is fine, I'm good. Like I'm good.
And then there's like a deeper piece that I see come to the
surface for women after the 1st 90 days.
(37:30):
So I say four months because it gives you enough time to like
really see what that deeper piece is and then determine if
you need more time. Six months.
Some people really need six months.
I've had people do a year. You know, I don't recommend
anyone start with a year or circle because it's like too
overwhelming and no one wants todo that.
So oftentimes if you kind of tell yourself you're gonna do
(37:51):
three months and then you can see at three months that there
is like a need for another monthor two.
Oftentimes at that point, you'relike, OK, yeah, I'm gonna add
some time on. But like anything, you know,
even when people are quitting alcohol or smoking or other
things, like it can be really overwhelming, too much and
quitting forever. So you pick a length of time
(38:12):
that you're gonna do right. And this is not We're not
intending to quit intimacy forever.
You know, right, right. Yeah.
Thank you so much. OK, So then the like last kind
of question that popped up for me in this is like, I have like
male friendships and there is flirtiness, but doesn't
(38:34):
necessarily have to be whatever.Is it just like you can't talk
to any men. Like how do how do I like stay
in integrity with doing, you know, a masculine cleanse
because I was diagnosed as neverhaving done 1.
So I probably want to do 1. So like I can feel that call and
intuitively that came to me anyway.
So how do I, what do I do? Like what do I communicate to
(38:56):
them so they know I'm not like fuck man.
It's more like a hey I I have some fuckery and I need to
cleanse myself. Yeah, yeah.
So one of the invitations when you go into a cleanse like this
is to clean up loose ends and set boundaries and close doors.
And that's part of the beauty ofthe process is the part of us
(39:17):
that wants to keep that door open, that has that little kind
of like attention hit from that person that like has that Plan
B, whatever that we clean all that up.
So if you have male relationships that are flirty,
it might be sending a text saying, hey, I'm about to do a
masculine cleanse as a little reset.
I'm taking some space from all my relationships where there's
(39:39):
intrigue and flirting. And so just a heads up, I'll be
unavailable until whenever. And you give them the time.
And if those are relationships where it's really possible to
shift the dynamics so that it's not based on intrigue and that
like energy, great. But basically we're saying that
we're like choosing not to engage in that.
(39:59):
OK, cool. Thank you so much, Doctor.
I appreciate it. So I have a, a like extension to
this question because I think that this can present too in
spaces where people are actuallypartnered and in relationship.
(40:20):
And like speaking for myself because I'm partnered.
And I feel like there is also anopportunity for me to, like,
take a break from like, seeking attention and needing sex,
needing this, needing that, because there's a space where it
can become like, seeking validation rather than like,
(40:45):
authentically flowing energy. And I'm wondering if this is
even something that you have thought of or communicated with,
you know, clients about in the space of like actually being
partnered and you're committed, you're married or whatever.
In my case, I'm getting married and we've committed ourselves.
And I can feel that like maybe there is an opportunity for me
(41:09):
even still to do some kind of like seeking validation break.
I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.
Yeah, I do know. I do know people who've done
this while in partnership. I think it's easier.
Well, I shouldn't say it's easier.
(41:29):
I think that being in long term partnership where you've been
married for a long time, it sometimes feels more accessible
to a true masculine or feminine cleanse because you're sort of
both in relationship for the like you're really like, we're
doing this for however many moreyears, Like we have time to take
three months to not be whatever it is into in a certain way.
(41:51):
And it doesn't feel like it's a big sacrifice.
Whereas earlier in relationshipsfor people, it can feel like
that's a lot to give up. But I mean, you and your partner
could create any set of agreements that you wanted if
you shared with him. Hey, I would love to feel like
I'm sourcing, you know, my senseof whatever it is, confidence
(42:14):
worth, sexiness, desirability somewhere other than you 24/7.
And I want to look at how I can do that.
You guys could certainly brainstorm what that might look
like. You know, I've had couples when
I've been coaching on sex and intimacy where I've had them
take sex off the table or like certain things are like habitual
touch off the table. It's like a really good way to
create polarity where you're like, we're not going to do any
(42:36):
sort of mindless kissing, touching, cuddling.
That's not intentional around physical intimacy.
Like all the ways that we like kind of like friend closeness
with our partners. Esther Pearl's big on that too.
And she's helping couples, like work through things where she'll
just take all that out. And so there's ways that my
partner and I, we were having issues with our sex life last
(42:56):
year and it just like got to a point where I was like, fuck, I
don't know, like we have to do something.
This is like really not in a good spot.
And we did six weeks for sex wasfully off the table.
I'm gonna create really specificparameters around the ways that
we were gonna engage romantically.
And it was so, first of all, it was so hot.
It was like instantly hot because it got us out of all of
(43:19):
our habitual patterns. It was like, you just break
whatever habit you're in becauseyou've removed the thing that
you do habitually. And then there's all this
creativity that opens up in space.
I love that. That's such a good reminder.
And you know, my experience around that whole thing has been
like a lot of fear, right? Like, oh, if we, if we take this
(43:41):
away completely, like then we'rereally killing it.
Like for me, the the narrative has been that like, it's
actually dead if we take it away.
Whereas you're actually, you know, you're presenting the idea
that maybe it's invigorating this creating a void space,
right? Where like it can be exciting
(44:01):
again. And it's not like this dead end
flat energy anymore. We're actually like separating
the space a little bit so that there can be like electricity
and like you said, creativity inthat void.
And yeah. I think it creates so much
desire and magnetism for people it has.
It does not. I mean, I get, I get that.
(44:22):
My partner was also really scared when I proposed this idea
that we were giving up on our sex life, giving up on our sex
life. I'd just be breaking up with you
because I'm not going to live ina sexless marriage.
That's my worst nightmare. And so as long as you're really
clear about your values and thatthat is the intention is 100%
not that, then it gets to just be a place of experimentation
(44:46):
and it can be again, like, I mean, it literally took maybe 24
hours before my sex drive like double.
I suddenly was like, Oh my God, but I can't have you for this
amount of time. Makes me want you so bad.
Oh my God, I love that that is so.
It's like a hack for sure. How long were you guys together
(45:06):
before you guys implemented this?
We were together about a year. It was a year in.
Wow, that's new. Oh man, no wonder he was.
Scared and that relationship wasreally unique.
I mean, I'll share a little because I, I don't think we have
enough stories about this, but that partnership was one where I
(45:28):
got into, it was the first time I've ever entered into a
committed relationship with a man where the chemistry was not
what drew me to him. Like that was not the natural.
It was like there was magnetism and attraction, but initially I
was like, oh, he's so sweet, butlike no sexual attraction.
And it was such a slow burn withhim.
Like it was something like, as the friendship deepened, I kept
(45:51):
feeling this curiosity and draw,even though I was like, I don't
know though, if it's like a romantic thing.
And then that evolved. And so it was the part of the
relationship that actually required work because in every
other relationship I've been in my life, it was based on just
mutual chemistry and lost attraction, right.
And then you like see if the other pieces work.
(46:12):
And so it's the first time I ever did it the other way.
And by far the healthiest, most beautiful partnership I've ever
been in. But it was also very humbling to
go like, oh, I actually have to try at the sex part.
Like I actually have to do some work here because it's not just
like trauma bonded hot. And it was like every part of my
(46:32):
sexual identity, ego had to die in that relationship because it
was so it was I just had I just realized how much I've gotten
away with not actually having true skills in that area and
just like running a lost. Yeah, I resonate with that a
lot. That is my relationship.
(46:55):
And my fiance and I, we were friends for a while and you
know, he was always a sweetie pie, but it was never really
like this. Fire.
So that is totally relatable. I'm curious for yourself and
your own experience, Kate, was that kind of a like, was you
choosing this man a marker for you in your healing journey of
(47:19):
like how you've progressed to beavailable for not trauma bonding
with somebody and still being able to be intimate with them?
Yeah, it felt like a huge growing up moment.
It was because it was it was actually so much more vulnerable
to do relationship from this place of, you know, my default
mechanism was to create securityand my partnerships through
(47:41):
like, oh, you're going to be obsessed with me and you're so
in love with me and that sex is going to blow your mind.
So you're never going to leave me and like, I'm going to all
the color. And that worked fine, except
that I was never actually like getting the deeper intimacy
needs in Matt because I was picking men who, like, could not
meet me. I feel so cold out right now in
the best possible way. I'm sorry I my higher self is
(48:02):
just laughing her ass off at this right now.
Please keep going, you're just doing the most.
So this relationship was like, all right, what is it to not
hide behind that like sexy idol power, you know, role in the
relationship and actually be seen and actually be messy and
(48:23):
actually bring what's real and like work through deeper level
stuff. And it just gave me so much
confidence in like, oh, OK, now I know what it would really take
to do long term. Like this is what marriages
require, right? This is what actual long term
relationship requires. Is this your current partner?
Yeah. Amazing that is so cool.
(48:46):
Do you guys still practice this kind of thing or was it like a
one and done? The fires lit.
Oh no, this is definitely an ongoing.
I mean this is like that part ofour relationship requires work.
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there's chapters,
right? There's times where it feels
really inflow and easy and then there's times where it doesn't.
(49:07):
And that's I think actually natural, healthy, normal
relationship. But when you're used to again,
feeling like the certainty and like the rightness of a
relationship is based on the level of chemistry, it makes it
either exhausting, 'cause you'reconstantly trying to maintain
that which is not possible to do, or you're constantly anxious
(49:28):
'cause you're making it mean something when the chemistry
dies down a little, right? Women do all the time.
They're like in panic every time.
Like things cool off because they're like, I don't actually
know how to do individuals, you see.
And so, yeah, it's like a maiden, it's like a maiden up
level. It's like Princess to queen up
level when you start to go like,alright, so it's not about just
it being hot 24/7. What is relationship and
(49:49):
partnership really about? Not that we can't have hot.
Like I'm like, I'm such a again,like I'm never going to be in a
relationship where we're having bad sex for long periods of
time, but to be able to weather the natural cycles of
relationship. Mm hmm.
Such a good reminder. Man, oh man, this was just
everything that you said I resonated with.
(50:10):
Like that's been my especially. And this is like it was so this
is a moment where I'm looking atmyself and I'm like, oh, yuck.
I mean, I love you, but yuck when you were like, I'm going to
be so hot and I'm going to, you know, be this thing that you you
can't think about and or you can't stop thinking about.
And like that is it's so my freaking move.
(50:32):
Like I'm going to be a total sexgoddess right off the RIP and
have you like wrapped around my finger.
And this other relationship where I said like, like
literally right now, like today,I like made this big giant mess
and I feel like a freaking twat and an idiot.
I'm so embarrassed, but I'm likeshowing up the best I can in
that very specific dynamic. My sex fix hood is not working
(50:52):
very well. It hasn't worked very well.
I didn't get what I wanted. And in fact, in one incident it
was so traumatizing for me to feel rejected.
And you know, for that to not have been like won him over and
got him, you know, he was like, it was very traumatizing for me.
And I just realized this is likemonths ago, like months ago that
(51:15):
this happened. And I just realized recently
that I was holding on to that and feeling like a giant turd
just like I'm just like, it's making me look at all of this
differently. Because the literally the
relationship I just got out of that was the thing.
It was like all good when the sex was there.
And then when the sex got compromised and it wasn't good,
(51:35):
the emotional fallout was so tragic and I was like scraping
and fighting and clawing to get it and to create it.
But I ended up being all of the emotional availability all the
time and then having to look at that anyway.
I'm just grateful you exist and I'm grateful you're on this
call. And I'm grateful you you were
willing to be on this even though we didn't quite leave you
as prepared as we possibly couldhave.
(51:56):
Because this is just really doing the most for me.
Thank you. I'm like seeing the silliness in
the way I've been approaching things and what I want is what
you're describing you have with your partner.
I would rather be met mentally and emotionally.
And like, if what we're working on is the sex part, well, what
better project than to have a project on sexy time and actual
real intimacy? Like I'm going to be doing work
(52:17):
somewhere anyway, why not that? Yeah.
This is such a beautiful reminder for acceptance in like
all of the phases and awareness that there are phases and like
everybody is going to have them And that that's you know, you
know, it doesn't mean that you're not healed enough.
It doesn't mean that you're not healed.
(52:37):
It doesn't mean anything. It just means you're human.
And how you show up in the spaceof like a phasic life is really
what indicates what you're readyfor.
And not necessarily like bringing it back to the
question, it's not like are you completely healed?
It's are you prepared to receivethe phases of life?
Like that's the message that I'mgetting through this podcast.
(52:58):
Would you say that that's accurate?
Kate yeah, I think that's a beautiful way to frame it.
And and to have so much compassion for our strategies
for staying safe, right? Because really all of us, when
we're in those moments of feeling panicked because the
chemistry's died down or when wego into our default strategies
(53:21):
of like manipulation or clingingor, you know, seducing or
whatever, it's like to just go, oh, OK, so you feel scared.
And this is one of the things that you do when you get scared.
And how can we actually just talk about the fact that you're
scared, right? Like someone in our
relationships, if we can just golike, hey, I'm scared.
I'm scared of losing you. I'm scared you're going to think
(53:43):
I'm bad. I'm scared you don't want me
anymore. I'm scared we're never going to
have good sex again. Like if we can just say the
thing, then we don't have any inthe strategy.
And then we can actually be in connection again, which is what
we're really looking for. But oftentimes we recognize, oh,
like how I actually feel is scared.
And so I'm going into a pattern and the way to subvert that is
(54:04):
to just name on the emotion that's happening.
Yep. So good, so good.
We just had Justin Patrick Pierce.
I don't know if you're familiar with him.
I love him. Yeah.
We just had him on the podcast, and he did some, like, Jedi mind
tricks on me and got me to go deep into my subconscious and
(54:25):
what comes up for me in that space.
And he was asking me how I felt.And I was sharing, like, my
analysis of how I felt and why Ifelt that way.
He's like, OK, I see that, but do you see what you're doing?
Like you're analyzing? Can you just say what you feel?
And I was like, oh shit. Like that?
Like, why is that such a monumental concept?
(54:48):
You know what I mean? But it really, and it broke, it
broke me. Like, it broke me to the core.
And I was like, Oh my God, OK, here are the pieces that I'm
working with. Not this like mental game that
I'm like trying to like figure out and justify and problem
solve. Yeah.
Well, and that even that, right,Like I have that one too.
One of my protective strategies is to intellectualize and to be
(55:10):
like the one who's like, I'm a therapist to you.
And I'm going to, like tell you why it won't make sense like
this, which is a total mechanismfor not being vulnerable and
actually feeling however you feel in a moment.
And especially when we do that with partners, it's like, what a
way to be. You know, we make ourselves
superior by being like the one who has it figured out.
Oh. My God just I feel so red on
(55:33):
this fucking episode. Just.
Exposed. I'm so excited to talk to my
therapist tomorrow so. Good.
Well, I love it from having to you know, it's like, again, the
reason that I do this work is because it's just was 1 cringy,
humiliating, seeing myself clearly experience after
another. And that's been my whole life.
(55:53):
And so to me, it's like, can we just take some of the yeah,
shame out of the human experience because we're all
having the same feelings. And the reason people feel
called out or like seeing when we talk about this stuff is
because it's so universal. And here we all all thinking
(56:14):
we're like uniquely fucked up. And it's like we're not.
We're actually, none of us are that special in what ways we're
fucked up. We're all pretty like dealing
with the same things. Right.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Awesome.
Can you tell our audience where they can find you?
You can find me on Instagram, Doctor Kate CAITE with the
(56:38):
period in the middle, and Doctorkate.com.
And yeah, thank you both for facilitating such a deep,
authentic, real conversation. Those are my favorite.
Literally my pleasure. This was wonderful.
This was epic. This was so good.
Well, thank you for listening. Go fine Doctor Kate.
(57:00):
She has got some really good content and a a well of
knowledge. I don't know how do you say
that? That's not the term.
Wealth. That's not a deep, well, wealth.
Of knowledge so well. A deeply wealthy well of
knowledge. All right, we love you.
Follow us too and comment, interact, ask questions.
If anything Kate said was like really triggering for you, we
(57:22):
want to know. If it was inspiring for you, we
want to know. We want to know all the stuff
so. So let us know later, babes.
Babes, thank you for listening to Babe Philosophy.
If you enjoy the show, please like, rate and subscribe
wherever you listen and follow us on Instagram at Babe dot
Philosophy later. Babes.