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July 10, 2025 β€’ 54 mins

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πŸ“š Summary

Exploring Non-Monogamy: Is It Truly More Evolved?In this episode of Babe Philosophy, hosts Meli Wolf and Liv Wickedly delve into the complex topic of non-monogamy and its perceived evolution over monogamy. They discuss the Babe Philosophy Grimoire, a modern journal designed to empower women, and the importance of understanding one's biomarkers for better health. The main discussion centers around whether non-monogamy is more evolved than monogamy. They explore the definitions, potential benefits, and pitfalls of both relationship styles, emphasizing the importance of facing one's internal motivations and being brutally honest with oneself. The episode concludes with practical advice on attaining true freedom and safety within relationships and the importance of deep self-inquiry.


βŒ› Chapters

00:00 Is non-monogamy more evolved?02:11 Introduction and Welcome02:11 Introduction and Welcome03:10 Defining Non-Monogamy and Monogamy03:55 Ethical Non-Monogamy in the Spiritual Community05:43 Arguments for Non-Monogamy Being More Evolved05:43 Arguments for Non-Monogamy Being More Evolved09:40 Challenges and Criticisms of Non-Monogamy15:46 Freedom and Choice in Relationships18:16 Freedom and Choice in Relationships26:32 Monogamy and Safety Concerns30:28 Navigating Relationship Dynamics30:56 Evolved Ways of Monogamy and Non-Monogamy31:52 Personal Experiences with Relationship Styles33:21 Challenges and Realizations in Non-Monogamy36:17 The Importance of Self-Inquiry40:42 Concluding Thoughts on Relationship Choices42:42 Byron Katie's Process of Inquiry49:13 Concluding Thoughts on Relationship Choices51:47 Final Reflections and Audience Engagement


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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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(00:41):
We just had Doctor Adam Hodgkisson our podcast and learned how
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(01:01):
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this episode of Babe Philosophy.People glorify these non
monogamous relationships becausethey have a desire to experience
sex and intimacy in different ways.

(01:23):
The pull to it for a lot of people is this drive to spice it
up. That's super bypassing in and of
itself because you're not actually going to the depths
with the person who's in front of you.
If you're looking outside of thecontainer, chances are you're
probably bored, overwhelmed. Like, chances are if you're
looking outside, it's because what's inside is actually too

(01:44):
much for you to look. At this is Babe philosophy.
A podcast where questions mattermore than answers, where liminal
spaces are revered, and where magic is practical.
We are your hosts. Mellie, Wolf and Liv wake me.

(02:11):
Welcome to Bay philosophy with Liv and Mellie.
I'm so glad that your name ends in an E sound because it rhymes
with Bay philosophy and it worksevery fucking time.

(02:32):
What's up? Welcome, motherfuckers.
We're back. We back and you listening and we
grateful for that today. I am nerve sighted actually.
I can't even say I'm just straight up excited.
I'm a little nervous but also excited about our topic today.
And Mellie and I both have very interesting spicy experiences of

(02:54):
this particular topic that we get to talk about.
And the question we are daring to ask today is, is non monogamy
more evolved? You know more evolved than you
know the default setting, which would be monogamy.
Yeah. So I think maybe Mama, we always
like to start with definitions and containers and what the fuck

(03:15):
we're talking about. So what do we when we're saying
non monogamy, what are we talking about?
Yeah. I mean, I think Simply put, non
monogamy would be experiencing more than one person in
relationship, whether that be like emotional non monogamy or

(03:35):
physical non monomy or some kindof combination of the two.
And then monogamy would be that you have that emotional and
physical intimacy in one container with one person.
Yeah, in a romantic sense and romantic sense, Yep, I agree
with that. I agree with that.
And there's for the sake of this, this conversation, let's

(03:57):
assume we're talking about ethical non monogamy, which
would which would assume consent.
Yes, every person involved in this has consented.
They're opting in. They're choosing this.
We're not talking about cheating.
No, we're not talking about yourcheating ass lying ass ho ass
ex. We're just gonna.
Go ahead and say that's fucking not cool.
Don't do that. Don't fuck around with that
bullshit. Stop being a liar.

(04:19):
So we're talking about ethical non monogamy when we're talking
about this topic and specifically as we like to do
see some interesting dynamics happening in the spiritual
community and like the modern consciousness, what does it mean
to be evolved? What does it mean to be
expansive conversations? And we in our own experience

(04:42):
have noticed something. But then there's this woman,
there's an account that I followcalled Midlife Muse.
She's really amazing and she wastalking.
She also called out this trend that she's noticing this thing
and what's primarily happening here is there are people, they
have tended to be men, but thereare people who are touting that
non monogamy is more evolved, that it's more it's a sign of

(05:03):
higher consciousness. If you are willing and able to
allow your partner, partners to just do whatever they want
whenever they want in whatever way they want, essentially,
which is a really, really beautiful idea.
It's a lovely concept free love.And when it comes down to brass
tacks, I can tell you having lived inside of it, it's also a
really beautiful place for manipulation and gaslighting and

(05:26):
violation and bypassing, bypassing, betrayal,
abandonment. It's a really beautiful place
for shadows and distortions to hide.
So maybe we could kind of talk about like maybe we just talk
about that argument to begin with and kind of break it apart.
So the argument being non monogamy is more evolved.

(05:48):
OK what if you just start and you say OK in what ways is non
monogamy more evolved? Could be yes.
Has the potential to be. OK, non monogamy has the
potential to be more evolved in that it is like you were saying,
it's got this element of like total freedom.
It's got this element of free love, right.

(06:09):
The idea that love is not caged,love is not bound, Love is
infinite and you can find it in anybody there.
It it's, it feels more evolved in that it doesn't hone in on
like this. What I think in monogamy is
connected to a lot of the time, which is that there's the
concept of a soulmate. Not saying that that has to be

(06:31):
involved in non excuse me, in monogamy.
However, I think that a lot of people driven to monogamy do
have that idea of like, you findyour soulmate and that's it.
End of story. Done.
Non monogamy opens up the realm for connection with a variety of
people in a variety of differentways and expansion through

(06:52):
connecting with a variety of people in a variety of different
ways. If you're with one person your
whole life, you know it's like that person you you grow with
and you learn from, and they grow with you and they learn
from you. And the idea with non monogamy
is you can do that with multiplepeople.
So the idea is like you're expanding at like maybe 2-3
times the rate because you're just going all in with a variety

(07:16):
of different people that are teaching you a variety of
different lessons and showing you a variety of different sides
of yourself. I think those are the main
arguments that I see for how nonmonogamy is more evolved than
monogamy. Yeah, totally.

(07:37):
The things that I would add because I have practiced ethical
non monogamy, the things that caught my attention, right.
Why I bought into this. This is a more evolved way of
being 'cause I did buy, I drank that kool-aid for a hot minute.
I drank all the spiritual new age kool-aid.
It all tasted good till it didn't.
The thing that also really drew it to me was the I got this idea

(07:59):
from the books that I was listening to in the podcast as I
was listening to which these people are, are performing at
the highest possible level in these containers.
They're, they are the most conscious people, in my opinion,
these people who write these books and who are thought
leaders in the space. And from their perspective, what
I saw was a really intense levelof accountability required by

(08:19):
you as an individual and by all of the parties involved, because
there are so many dynamics goingon.
And to Mellie's point, like you're, you're being confronted
and triggered in an intimate space by at the bare minimum,
two people, right? Because that's what would make
it non monogamous if there's at least three people in some kind
of interaction. But in some cases people are
dating like 5 people, four people, some.

(08:41):
Sometimes it's separate relationships.
Sometimes it's everybody's in one big giant relationship.
There is a lot of accountabilityrequired by all parties involved
to figure out what's mine, what do I take responsibility for?
How do I show up for that? What are my boundaries?
How are we maintaining our agreements?
And there is a requirement for an efficacy in communication

(09:02):
like your ability to know what'sgoing on with you to communicate
responsibly and timely and effectively.
And then for the other people tobe able to hold that there.
There's a there's like a high standard for this thing to be
successful and go well. So that also I would add to the
like, that's another place wherelike the play DoH can be formed

(09:24):
into something potentially more evolved than default setting
monogamy. Yep, Yep.
Yeah, there is a potential for it to call you into your highest
mode of operating because you have to be so fucking clean to
be able to navigate deep, deep intimacy with multiple people.
Yeah, physically and emotionallyand mentally and spiritually.
And yeah, there's, there's a lothappening all at once.

(09:45):
So there's there's all of that potentially there.
OK, let's flip to the other side, which is probably where
we'll spend more time. Interesting.
OK, what are the cons? Like?
What are the ways in which non monogamy is actually a hiding
place for a lack of consciousness?

(10:06):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think what it
really comes down to is like thefundamental reality that we are
humans and we are scarred and weare not evolved in so many ways.
And really to to take on non nonmonogamy is to take on the task
of drinking from a fire hose anddrinking from a fire hose

(10:30):
literally. Like yes, you get more water,
but you fucking die. You drown on your way there.
Exactly so. Like, it's like more water isn't
necessarily better, you know what I mean?
Like, doesn't matter how thirstyyou are, if the water is not
served to you in a like bioavailable, drinkable fashion,

(10:52):
you are going to die anyways. So there is something to be said
for recognizing that humanity isvery complex and being a human
is very complex and we actually need, many of us need.
And this isn't to say like this isn't an overarching statement.
Some people, there are people that can drink from fire hoses,

(11:14):
I suppose, but as a more common state of being, a more common
mode of drinking is via a water bottle or a drinking fountain
where it's a slow trickle and that's far more hydrating and
far more nourishing. And that being that would be,
you know, analogous to monogamy where it's like you, there's so

(11:39):
much to learn, so much depth to go to, so much experience to be
had and so many triggers to overcome, so much confrontation
to be experienced, so much expansion to be had in the face
of just one single partner that if we were to do that all at
once with multiple people, that would actually break us.

(12:02):
Like on many of us, on some level myself, I feel.
And that's just one piece. I mean, there's there's.
So many different ways to go here.
I know, but that's one thing that I think if I'm looking at
it from just like a zoomed out perspective, if I zoom out of my
own experience, if I zoom out ofeverything and I just look up at

(12:25):
from above at what it means to be a human and I'm like, damn,
like these little people be downhere doing so much like how are
they handling multiple relationships like that's.
A lot. And the thing about it is people
glorify, I think, these non monogamous relationships because
they have a desire to experiencesex and intimacy in different

(12:48):
ways. Like the the pull to it for a
lot of people is this drive to spice it up, you know what I
mean? That's super bypassing in and of
itself because you're not actually going to the depths
with the person who's in front of you.
If you're looking outside of thecontainer, chances are you're
probably bored, overwhelmed. Like chances are if you're

(13:08):
looking outside, it's because what's inside is actually too
much for you to look at. It's actually overwhelming your
system. So you're actually having a fire
hose experience with just one person.
So now you're looking outside toease that for yourself, right?
That I think is the like, just like a classic pull to non

(13:30):
monogamy that you find most commonly, and I think it's the
one the most like critical spacewhere you should be saying, OK,
no, that is not the reason to goto non monogamy.
Non monogamy is something that Ifeel like should be accessed
through full depth with your onepartner.

(13:51):
Through full depth in monogamy. You should know for yourself
that you can expand into everything that it means to be
in a monogamous relationship because there are so many
corners in that space. Like there's so many cobwebs in
that space. You're going to be confronted in
so many ways. So maybe you're with somebody
for 10 years. You grow with each other, you

(14:13):
expand with each other, and now you're in such a fucking flow.
You have such good communication.
You have an incredible intimacy.You've just done so much
expansion and cleaning of your cobwebs together that now you're
like, OK, we could consider bringing an addition into the
space or expanding into the space or going out and doing

(14:34):
other things because we have this so on lock.
But when somebody is inclined togo elsewhere before that's on
lock, that to me is a sign of actually not being able to
handle the intensity of monogamy.
So what the fuck are you doing going out and trying to add to
that? Like that's insane.
But the initial motivation is I need a break, but it's not a

(14:57):
break. It's just gonna make things even
more fucking complicated. So that's I went on a tangent,
but I think that's my that's that's my starting argument for
why monogamy makes more sense inin in general as humans, but
then also just has a starting point for intimacy.

(15:17):
Well, I agree as a starting point for intimacy.
And then if if we take it back to I'm, I'm agreeing with your
perspective as that that's a huge, huge, huge pocket where
there's like shadow hiding, right?
There's this like shadow of I'm going to actually skate across
the surface, call it more evolved, but what I'm doing is
like dumping more fire on the onthe just dumping more fuel on

(15:42):
the fire is what I meant to say more fuel on the fire of my
relationship problems to like solve them.
I'm it's like solving your relationship problems by having
a baby or buying a house or getting married.
It doesn't work. It's just not going to.
Adds more. Yeah, it's just going to
highlight and make more intense whatever, whatever the cracks in
the foundation are. And I think that's actually a
very common thing that people do.
I agree with that wholeheartedly.

(16:04):
And then if I think about the, the consciousness like the, IT,
it being more evolved to my first point on the pros, those
actually also become the most acute cons in my opinion,
because of what it requires of, of each individual and what it
requires of the unit. It does require a high standard

(16:25):
of integrity and a high standardof loyalty that I actually think
is very lost in our culture. There is very much a me, me, me.
What can you do for me? Even in dating, like I talked to
people that I date and you know,a, a lot of feedback that I get
about how I treat people, the end of conclusion that we come
to is like, and I can only I'm dating, I'm dating primarily

(16:47):
men, but I often hear essentially a lot of women are
like, what can you do for me now?
What have you done for me lately?
What can you do for me? What can you do for me?
That's essentially the like message or essence that they're
left with. And I think that that happens to
people whether they're single ornot single.
We're stuck in this like capitalistic, individualistic.
What can I gain from this opportunity?
Everything needs to be fucking productized.

(17:10):
And we do it in our own minds. And so it's like, OK, I'm here
in front of this person and I have AI, have a subconscious or
maybe even conscious in your case, scoreboard.
And now I'm going to even the scoreboard out by like going to
get this thing. My partner's not providing me.
I'm going to go get it from somebody else outside of the
relationship. It's different.
I think if you're in a situationwhere you've really worked with

(17:33):
your partner, like you said, andthere's, there's so much depth
and safety and connection and flow between the two of you that
the idea of opening up is an expansion point.
It actually is a hey, like let'sas a unit allow more
confrontation in our container and see where it takes us when

(17:55):
that happens. There can absolutely be healthy
agreements between two people where it's like, hey, I really
have no interest in providing that kink.
I'm totally cool with you getting that need met some
somewhere else, right? Like you've made an agreement
now and then, you know, of course it's up to the person
who's going to get their like, you know, rocks off to stay
within the boundaries of those agreements.
And I could see that being healthy and expansive and also

(18:18):
freeing. But I think ultimately the thing
that I see on this side of it, and this is this is what I just
kept observing in my relationship experience with
this is a total fucking misconception.
And like, this is a soapboxing for me.
There is a massive, massive, massive misconception,
especially in my experience of men.
But I think all of us have this of what the fuck freedom

(18:40):
actually is. I think we think freedom is
having all the choices availableto us.
I want all the choices and that's fucking freedom.
No. No, wrong that it.
No, it's like I'm going to be idea agnostic in the fact that
if somebody presents a better idea, I will certainly digest
that. But I'm just going to say, no,

(19:02):
that isn't the case. What's actually, actually more
freeing is to make a fucking choice.
The fact that you have the free will choice, that's the freedom.
I have a choice to respond to. XYZI have a choice of how I
experienced this. I have a choice of what my
relationship to this thing is. My ability to choose is what the
freedom is, not having all the choices.

(19:25):
I do understand the correlation between perceiving less freedom
when you don't have as many choices, but I think what's
actually happening is when you don't have what you want, when
you're not actually experiencingin your deepest alignment what
you want out of your life, then you perceive.
Or then some may perceive. It's the lack of choices versus

(19:48):
oh, it's the choices I've made. The choices I have made have led
me to feel trapped. The choices I have made had led
me to feel claustrophobic. The choices I have made are
misaligned for me, and so I do not experience freedom within
myself. There's something off in here.
But the the the case is your experience of freedom,
gratitude, love, pleasure, sex, all of that's happening inside

(20:11):
of you that doesn't actually happen as a direct result of the
things outside of you. Do we add things outside of
ourselves to like create stimulus, to create dynamics, to
have energy exchange and flow, especially in sex?
Fuck yeah we do. It would be boring as shit to
just be doing everything by ourselves all the time.
We're also social creatures. There's a lot that can happen in
reciprocity and of course, the, the beauty of, if we're talking

(20:34):
about evolution here, of having a mirror, right, of having
somebody like reflect back to you what you're putting out and
how, how it's reverberating in the, in the space around you.
All of these things are true, but the actual essence, source,
root of your freedom is your owninternal experience to the word
freedom and how you understand freedom.

(20:54):
And I also, OK, so the, the, thetwo arguments that were made in,
in my previous relationship experience that were used to
sanitize my pain, bypass my nervous system attunement and,
and literally say no when I would say, can we please slow
down or can we stop? Can we change this?

(21:15):
It was literally just and, and I'm, I, I allowed myself to be
gasoline and manipulated. I'm, I'm not blaming anybody.
And also it was the the freedom thing and then also the like
freedom of expression. Like in order for me to be
sexually expressed, I need to beable to fuck everything that
walks and moves and I need to beable to be naked in front of
everything that walks and moves.Like I just need to be able to

(21:35):
stick my Weiner in everything. That was the argument.
And I think that I think that that's kind of what this post
was talking about is like men trying to convince women or
culture at large that their freedom is dependent on
literally being able to stick their Dick in what the fuck ever

(21:56):
they want. It's like, OK, if you want to do
that, do that. Be single, be ethically non
monogamous as a single person. But if what you actually want is
to expand your consciousness, you're going to get a hell of a
lot fucking more by going deep by the depth of the connection
because the depth is infinite. What's happening here in the
horizontal, It is superficial. It is literally that top layer

(22:17):
of water. It's, it's the shallow end of
the pool. And that's I think really where
what Mellie was getting at. And that's what I really
resonate with is like, if you aren't going all the way into
the depths of Hades with, with one person, why?
And are you literally cutting off your capacity to truly
actually expand by spreading yourself thin and having many,

(22:42):
many partners? It's the clean fuel, dirty fuel
thing. It's like, why are you doing it?
Yeah, it. Always comes down to the clean.
Duel clean. Duel clean.
Fuel dirty. Yeah, we're both like having
like fucking mush mouth saying the wrong goddamn thing on here.
Yeah, I think that that's all great.
And I really agree with everything that you're saying.
And you know, I really wanna just like harp on that, that

(23:07):
freedom piece again, because I feel like that is kind of the
crux of where this bypassing energy comes from and what that
post was talking about. And I think there's different
ways to approach it, right? Like the clean fuel or The Dirty
fuel. And The Dirty fuel would be that
experience, if I'm not free, that experience, if I feel

(23:29):
trapped, that experience of I'm confined, I'm stuck with this
one person. And you know, and assuming
you're in a relationship, right?So that space, like if you're
having that experience, whether you're a man or a woman, that's
probably not clean because look at what's happening in your

(23:49):
world. You've chosen to be with a
person. You're making this choice every
day and you're choosing to abideby the rules of that container.
And somewhere in you, you're telling yourself that you don't
want those rules and you want out.
So now you're living in cognitive dissonance.
This is a you problem, not an anybody else problem.

(24:11):
If you want to have, like Liv said, a non monogamous
relationship, then then your rule, then your job here is to
exit the relationship that you're in if it's not allowing
for that space for you and go beethically non monogamous as a
single person. But what's really but that?
But what is probably the higher call here in this specific

(24:34):
circumstance is to take a good fucking hard look at yourself
and say what is happening here for me?
Why do I feel trapped? Why do I feel like I can't be
how I wanna be or who I wanna be?
What is this energy? Because you are feeling it in
the face of your partner. Because they are calling you
into a deeper version of yourself and a deeper version of

(24:57):
the relationship. That feeling that you're having
is the threshold between your genital, you know, dopamine hit
and a deep profound loving relationship.
So that is a crossroads. What your ad is a crossroads.
What your ad is not wrong or bad.

(25:17):
It is it just, it is simply a crossroads.
What you do with that information is what makes it
wrong or bad or, you know, expansive or good or whatever.
Right. It's OK.
And I think it's fairly normal to have that experience.
I think many of us have had thatexperience.
I've had that experience in relationship where I've been
like, maybe we should open up the relationship.
I'm not feeling satisfied here. I want more.

(25:38):
I feel trapped, right? And my partners had that
experience right now, what's different in that is we chose to
go deeper. We chose to look at ourselves.
We chose to have really hard conversations with each other.
We chose to dive deeper into ourrelationship and explore what

(26:00):
those blocks were for ourselves,what was happening in ourselves.
And you know, what we came to wasn't, we have to be monogamous
forever. We have to be, you know, non
monogamous forever. What we came to was an
understanding of the deeper needunderneath that, right?

(26:21):
The deeper need underneath that,which is what Liv was saying,
which is to understand that you have free will choice in the way
that you receive things, in the way that you choose things.
And at the end of the day, you are free and you you are able to
access that freedom under any set of circumstances.
Doesn't mean it doesn't even matter if you're changed to a
wall, you still have access to that freedom.

(26:43):
Now granted, it takes a fucking gangster to find that freedom if
you are changed to a wall, but you still have it because you
always have it and that's not something anybody can take from
you. So if you find yourself in a
position thinking my partner is trapping me, my partner is
suffocating me, that is not it. Now, I think the same is true
for the other side of the spectrum where, you know, people

(27:07):
who attach to monogamy for the wrong reasons.
Oh yeah? Well.
Let's talk about this too, because I've done that also.
Yes, where where you attach to monogamy because you don't feel
safe, because you you attach to monogamy because you're afraid
of being abandoned. You attach to monogamy because
you're afraid that you're going to be betrayed.
You attach to monogamy because you think there's somebody out
there that's better, that's going to take what you have.

(27:27):
Now, I've also been there. And that for me is where I've
played more often, more frequently and more recently.
And that is also dirty fuel, right?
It's like there's a there's a bad reason and a good reason
for, for both of these things. And I think that the bad reason
for non monogamy, if we're goingto use that word, excuse me, the

(27:50):
bad reason for monogamy. I'm getting so wrapped up in
this non monogamy and monogamy thing.
If you are attached to being monogamous, if you're attached
to having one partner because you're afraid of being
abandoned, you're afraid of there being somebody else who's
prettier, better, smarter, whatever than you, that's gonna
take what you have. You're gonna lose what you have.
That's not it either. And I've been there so much.

(28:14):
So I think that in that space, the invitation is to take a good
hard look at yourself again, in the same way as the person who's
wanting non monogamy for the wrong reasons and look at
yourself and say, where is this lack of safety coming from?
Because in the same way that theperson's wanting out and
freedom, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, you have that freedom in

(28:35):
you. Fucking somebody else is not
going to give you that. And the same thing goes for I
need benogamy because you're going to leave me because
there's somebody better. I'm afraid somebody's going,
you're going to fall in love with somebody else.
It's like that is a lack of safety and if you're looking for
safety in your partner to provide you the experience of

(28:57):
safety. Now granted, it is important to
create an environment where you support and foster your your
partner's freedom and your partner's safety on both ends.
However, they're not responsiblefor it.
And if you're coming from a place of I don't want you to
experience other people because I'm afraid that you will leave

(29:18):
me. I'm afraid that you will find
somebody better. I'm afraid that I will be
abandoned because I am not safe,because I am not good enough,
because I don't trust my worth. It's the same thing.
It's two sides, the same coin. I am outsourcing my safety to
you. So now as long as you are
talking to somebody else or loving somebody else, it is a

(29:40):
direct threat to my safety, which is not good either.
And that for me is my work. Like that's what I fucking
struggle with the most at this point in my life.
I used to be the I'm free, I need to be free.
I need to get out of this. And now I've like swung the
other way where I'm like, holy shit, I'm not safe.
Oh, my God, You like her more? Yeah.

(30:01):
Yeah, exactly. So now in this space, like my
karma, my curriculum, my task, my call is to find my worth in
myself and recognize there literally is nobody on this
planet that can threaten me or who I am and what I have because
I am the only me. And that's obvious.

(30:24):
And also so fucking challenging to land in Yes.
Like easier said than done. Right.
So what just to bring it full circle, I know I've been talking
for a long time, but to bring itfull circle, what me and my
partner kind of landed in is recognizing that we have these
wounds that we have these thingsthat like my partner has this

(30:46):
like affinity for feeling trapped and I have an affinity
for feeling unsafe. And they're both shadow.
They're both in the shadow. And that there isn't a right or
wrong way of being. There isn't a we should be Polly
or non monogamous or we should be monogamous, but we both need
to have communication consent, checking in regularly.

(31:10):
Where are we now have things change and it's not a daily
thing, but it's like if it arises, it needs to be a
conversation and there needs to be availability to meet the
other person where they're at. If I'm not available for opening
up the relationship, if he's choosing to be with me, he has
to meet me there or he has to leave.
And that's just like the fundamental piece that I think

(31:33):
that's really being like, it's just so fucking reductionist to
say that non monogamy is more evolved because ultimately there
is a more evolved way of monogamy.
There is a more evolved way of non monogamy.
There is a under evolved way of doing non monogamy and an under.
Evolved way. Of doing monogamy.

(31:53):
It's just depends on the fuel that you're coming at it with.
Are you coming at non monogamy out of out of a place of
expansiveness and unity or are you coming at it out of a place
of feeling trapped and not free?Are you coming at monogamy out
of a space of fear of being abandoned and feeling unsafe, or

(32:14):
are you coming out of it? Are you coming into it in a
desire to deepen your relationship with your partner
and to expand yourself through the unity of one person?
Yeah, I think you fucking nailedit.
And I so I've done, you know, I've done both.
I've done the and I'm calling itdefault setting.

(32:34):
I'm I'm calling it default setting monogamy specifically if
it's that's what you were shown,that's what you were bought and
sold. That's what you think.
That's what you think all relationships are, right?
Like I didn't grow up knowing that there were polyamorous
relationships or non monogamous relationships or that anybody
didn't do anything besides just,you know, at first it was just a
man and a woman. And then I became aware of, you

(32:56):
know, gay people. And then my mom came out and I
thought that that was like, woo,OK, there's gay in their St.
That's a lot. And then I didn't, I didn't
learn until my mid 20s that there were all these other
different ways that people were relating with each other.
So when I say default setting monogamy, it's the monogamy that
we think we have to stay in and that that particular monogamy.

(33:17):
If I'm looking at how and why are are people in in the, in the
spiritual community or the consciousness community touting
that non monogamy is of higher consciousness?
I think it's because the defaultsetting monogamy is never
questioned. It's not questioned.
People aren't actually like consciously choosing it.
They're just kind of accepting it.
Yeah, they accept, accept it. They fall into it.

(33:40):
You know, their church says that's what they're supposed to
do. So they they don't figure out
for themselves and that, you know, that's what I did.
They're doing it for God, not for themselves.
Yeah, exactly. Which, you know, I definitely
find that there's God in my sex,but it doesn't matter how many
people I'm having sex with, he'sjust always there.
No, I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.
What? I'm kidding.
OK, Side sidebar. So when I was married, right.

(34:03):
And like, I discovered, like I, this podcast came to me and then
I started reading books and listening to books and I was, I
felt so much freedom, like possibility of freedom just in
my own mind from having consumedthis information I didn't know
existed. And I presented it to my
ex-husband and he was a hard no Immediately that was just no.

(34:23):
Now I freaked out and got scaredbecause I wasn't ready to leave
that relationship and I didn't want to leave him.
So I just said, OK, well, I guess I'm not going to do this.
I'm not going to get to have this in my life.
And I for two more years tried to make it work.
And then eventually it just, I, I just genuinely realized there
wasn't enough space for me in the relationship.

(34:44):
So I did what Mellie said. I was like, I have to go, like I
there's not enough space for me.But I never blamed him.
I never saw him as the reason I felt claustrophobic or caged or
trapped or any of the things. I was very fucking clear that,
oh, I chose this person who doesn't want the same things as
me. OK, let's let's shift out.
Well then I swung really far to the other end and I said yes to

(35:08):
everything Polly and yes to everything non monogamous
because I was like this is more evolved, this is of a higher
consciousness. This is how I'm going to ascend
faster. This is also I was drinking all
the spiritual new age kool-aid so I thought the point of being
here was to get out of here. What a fucking crazy insane
idea. Like most religions and
spirituality are like come down here to be human but ascend as
soon as you can as soon as possible.

(35:29):
The faster you ascend the better.
It's insane to me anyway, I thought, I thought that that was
going to be the move too. And, but let me tell you, there
was so much more dirty fuel in that second experience, in the
experience of non monogamy for me.
And not just for me, for the partners that I participated in
it with as well. And not just my like the two

(35:51):
boyfriends that I did it with, but also some of the the thirds
that we would bring in or whoever.
There was so much more dirty fuel in my experience.
And that's why the breakup was so fucking hard for me, for me,
because I'd been running off this crud that really destroyed
my engine, you know, and I had to replace so many parts.
But that, that was me in my peakof spiritual new age bullshit.

(36:18):
And that was one of the things that I was stuck on.
And I, I, I, I have friends who will tell you I have, I had
monogamous friends. We would get into like
arguments. I wasn't like starting them, but
they would say stuff and I wouldget defensive.
That's a for sure sign. You're running on dirty fuel if
you get fucking defensive about your truths.
If it's just a settled truth in me and somebody and it comes
across my plate that somebody disagrees with me, I'm just like
shrugging. I'm like.

(36:38):
Good for you, not for me. Yeah, like keep your crazy wack
ass idea. It's not mine.
You know, like so just just to let this test for you.
Are you feeling super defensive of monogamy right now or are you
feeling super defensive of non monogamy right now?
Probably have some dirty fuel going on if I were to, you know,
just purport, you know, just like throw out a hypothesis or a

(37:01):
conjecture or a little nugget. I think to synthesize what I
essentially imagined Mellie was getting to is the most evolved
place to actually be, is neutraland open to both possibilities
and to to sit in yourself in such a way and to create a

(37:21):
partnership that also fosters this in such a way that you
trust yourself so motherfucking much that it literally doesn't
matter what's happening in your life.
It doesn't matter what your partner's doing because you got
you and whatever happens next, you got you.
Whatever, yeah, whatever you're walking through, whatever
intensity it is, however much itsucks, however terrible and

(37:42):
scary and earth shattering it is, you've got you.
And in this present moment, whatfeels correct to do is this
thing, whether it's closing yourcontainer, if it's open and
doing that because it's scary, or opening it because that feels
correct for you, it really doesn't matter.
I would love to be in a relationship where there was
that much flexibility possible just because there's so much

(38:06):
trust and we may never fucking act on it at all.
It's just a hey, I love you forever and I trust myself and
us so much. We can have these conversations.
At the very bare minimum, we canhave these conversations.
Yeah. So that's my little two cents
at. The end there and that's why I
think that like ultimately I feel very lucky because you

(38:28):
know, Matt and I have not subscribed to one way or
another. We have recognized that there is
a place where non monogamy, it could be a beautiful expansive
experience and there is a space where monogamy could be a
beautiful expansive experience. And we choose each other first

(38:54):
ultimately, like that's the choice.
And for right now, like we have agreed on a monogamous
relationship with the possibility for if there's, you
know, there's an open invitationfor if somebody wanted to go to
a play party and we could go together and participate in it
as a couple and experience otherpeople in like a safe container

(39:17):
like that. Like that's something that we've
come to a place of like, OK, we this is where the door can be
open for us in this way. Otherwise, we are a monogamous
partnership and that doesn't make it easy and it doesn't make
it simple because truly, in choosing this path together, we

(39:39):
have confronted. All of our.
Fucking bullshit. Like I have been shattered on
the floor bawling my eyes out. He has been totally clenched up,
shut down, yelling, whatever variety or like, or yelling or
totally shut down or not able tospeak.

(39:59):
You know, like. Every edge of the spectrum,
every edge of like experience, we have gone through that
together because we've chosen tohave these horrifying
conversations that is required to actually have the expansive
experience in sexual relating, intimate relating, and it hasn't

(40:23):
landed in one way or another. And that's what I think, like
what me and Liv are saying is truly the more evolved approach
is recognizing that evolution means having the hard
conversations. Evolution means asking the right
questions. Evolution means taking a good
hard look at yourself and identifying what fuel you're

(40:45):
being fueled with. Evolution means getting fucking
real with yourself and with yourpartner and doing it with
yourself and in front of your partner and being willing to be
in quite literally like shamblesas a result.
Because you're facing your demons, you're facing your
fears, you're facing everything that's scary to you on either

(41:07):
side, whether it's you're afraidof being monogamous or you're
afraid of being non monogamous. And that's where the true
expansion lies is what is your karmic curriculum?
What is it that you have an affinity for?
Why? And can you really dive into the
root of that? That's where expansion lies.
It's not in one way of being or another.

(41:30):
Yeah, you nailed that. And I think what I would add is,
you know, you're, you're prompting people to kind of like
ask why, like pop the hood open and like, really get in there
and figure out what the fuck's going on.
Like, why are you choosing to operate this way or see the
world this way? And I think if you can sit, no
matter what your current relating style is and, and ask
yourself and be brutally honest,why do I choose monogamy?

(41:54):
Why do I choose non monogamy? And like, write that down.
And then I think you need to like also be real and ask is
this, does this desire match my lived experience?
Because you know, part of why part of why I went to the non
monogamy was I wanted freedom that I was I was, I was
absolutely the I'm claustrophobic and trapped

(42:15):
bitch. And I wanted all the freedom in
the world and I got over, you know, to that side of the fence
and it felt freeing for a while,very short period of time.
And then I would say the majority of my experience and
the taste in my mouth after was of me not being free.
And, and a lot of that came fromtheir too many choices on the

(42:36):
table and not enough choices being made.
So I think it's good to ask thatand then actually match.
I was living in an illusion of freedom.
And it took me a long time to figure out that that was an
illusion. But if I had paused and I said,
OK, wait, why am I choosing non monogamy?
Oh, all the all the things that I said at the beginning of the
episode. Is that my experience?
No. No.
Kind of sort of. Well, on Tuesdays.

(42:58):
No, no, no. Oh, shit.
This actually isn't giving me what I wanted.
I'm not having more elevated communication.
I don't feel more free. I don't feel sexier.
I don't feel more liberated. I feel exhausted.
I feel betrayed. I feel run over.
Oh, there's dirty fuel in this motherfucker.
Straight the fuck up. You're always going to end up
with the raw material that you started with.

(43:20):
You might have get on a high fora minute, but.
Oh, I got so high. Right, exactly.
Either way you go, if you do it for the wrong reasons, you might
feel satisfied for a moment, buteventually you're you're just
building a House of Cards. And I feel like this is actually
so. Oh my God, this is I can't
believe I haven't mentioned thison this show yet, but like Byron
Katie's the work. Are you familiar with Byron

(43:40):
Katie? Yes, I feel like we've.
Talked about Byron, I told. You absolutely have.
Yeah, so I'm obsessed with this woman because she is just like
so enlightened. And I feel like so often this is
a tangent, but like, there's so many like men out there like ROM
Das that are like in, you know, Alan Watts, whatever that are
these like spiritual teachers that are like of enlightened

(44:01):
material, you know, and Byron Katie is like the only chick
that is like on that level of just like fucking gangster
enlightenment. Anyway, so she teaches this
concept that's called the work. And it quite literally is the
work. And it's a process of inquiry to
identify like objective reality when you are not in objective

(44:22):
reality. And if you do this process well,
and if you are honest with yourself, you will find very
quickly where The Dirty fuel lies in your life.
And the process of inquiry, I'm gonna butcher it probably.
But it's four questions. The first question is, is this
true? So take any statement, right?
It's like I or like I wanna be in a or like my my girlfriend

(44:47):
won't let me be in a non monogous relationship cuz she
doesn't want me to be free right?
That's maybe a statement that a lot of men experience in this
container. She wants to control.
Me, yeah, cuz she wants to control me.
Yes, yes, cuz she wants to right.
So then we ask, is that true? And when we initially, when we
say, when we feel something likethat, we're gonna automatically

(45:09):
say yes, of course that's fucking true.
Like look what she's doing. She's not letting me be with
other people. Like she's not letting me do
anything. She controls the food I eat, you
know, whatever. And then the second question is
can you absolutely know that that's true?
100% certain with 100% certainty.

(45:30):
And now to call something 100%, you kind of have to think a
little bit more. You're like, OK, is she
controlling all of my food because she wants to support my
desire to eat healthy? Or is it because she wants to
control me right now? You start to see the little

(45:50):
holes in your narrative, right? Like does she support?
Like what are the what is the evidence that she's not trying
to control me? Like she supports my golfing
hobby. Does she really want me to golf
all the time and not be with her?
But she's totally cool with me golfing.
So does she really want to control me?
You know, like there's little pieces where you're starting to
see the break down of your reductionist statement.

(46:12):
And then the third question is to flip it up.
Can I flip this question on myself or with myself or on to
her? So that would be, am I trying to
control her? Oh shit, am I trying to get her

(46:32):
to give me freedom by controlling what she wants?
Like OK, maybe that's not right,maybe it is, but think about
that for a second. Because if you feel like she's
trying to control you, are you not doing the same exact thing
right back to her? That's how projection works,
baby. Right.
And then the other way to flip that question would be am I

(46:54):
trying to control myself? So you, sometimes one is right
and the other's wrong, sometimesboth are right, but generally
there's gonna be some truth in one way of flipping that right
'cause it's like maybe there's areality where like I'm trying to
gain control over my own realityand I don't feel like I can,

(47:14):
right? So I don't know, play with that.
And then the 4th, 3rd, 4th question is, what is this?
Who does this thought make me? Like, what kind of person does
this thought make me right? What does this thought make me
feel? I get angry.

(47:35):
I'm upset. I feel trapped, right?
Literally your girlfriend is notgiving you this thought.
You're giving yourself this thought.
So you were giving yourself thisexperience of upsetness, anger,
all of these things, right? So it kind of provokes this it,
it shows you where your thought process is making you a shittier

(47:56):
person because you are making yourself angry.
You're. My own person.
Right. And then the last question is
who would I be without that thought?
Probably more free, right? A way more free motherfucker.
So that fucking process of inquiry, if you do it right and
it takes practice, it's hard, especially if you're in like the
space of just feeling charged upand fucking pissed.

(48:19):
It's not easy. But if you practice and it
helps, I think, to write it downinstead of just going through it
in your mind. Oh, I agree, but it really
grounds you into whoa, I am not connected to reality.
Like, yes, this is my lived experience.
This is true on some level, on the level that I am experiencing

(48:41):
it, but it's not true beyond that.
I cannot claim what my girlfriend's trying to do.
I realize that my thoughts are my responsibility.
I realize that if I didn't have these thoughts, I'd be a happier
person. And the only person who can take
away these thoughts is myself. Like it lands you in your power

(49:02):
and reality so quickly, this process of inquiry that I highly
recommend it, especially for this particular topic around
monogamy and non monogamy, because there's so much mud.
There's so much mud on like who's right, who's wrong?
They want this. I want that, you know, like this

(49:25):
process will help so much, like ground you into what's actually
happening for you and clarify your experience and your reality
enough so that you can actually act from a clear place.
Yeah, huge. Obviously we here at Big
Philosophy are a big fan of questions and the power of
inquiry and curiosity. So snaps for all of that.

(49:47):
And I can tell you with 110% certainty, 10 out of 10 times
that process will lead you to the same realization every time.
Oh yeah, I have a choice here. Oh, that's where my freedom
lies. My freedom lies and my ability
to choose. Not my choices, Me making the
choice. That's the actual freedom, me

(50:08):
making the choice. So there is a world in which you
commit to a monogamous relationship and it's the most
liberating, freeing, breakthrough experience of your
life because now you don't have to think about those things
anymore. You made your fucking choice.
And now all that energy that wasgoing into dating or picking
someone or doubting your partnerfor years on end.
How many years have I spent? I chose a relationship and then

(50:29):
I just spend every other day doubting whether I should be in
it. What an energy.
Fucking lead suck, yes. And then there's also a world
wherein you do all this inquiry and you are at peace with the
non monogamy and then that's your fucking freedom and you
just move on and let it go. It'll what that'll do is bring
you back to your main character energy.
Yes, yes, yes. Instead of like, playing victim

(50:51):
to, you know, the the, the plot line happening outside of you as
if you have no influence or authority over which direction
it goes. You know we can't control
everything, but you do have choice in every situation, even
if the choice is to actively choose the shitty situation.
Yep. Which is OK, that shit happens
all the fucking time. Yeah, a lot of times that's what

(51:11):
it is. Yeah, yeah.
I, I feel like it's almost a rite of passage.
I fucking. My relationship was really
shitty for a long time and I actively chose it and that was
nobody else's fault of my own. Yeah, but also I will say
watching her do it has been super inspirational.
I fucking love that I get to watch her evolution up close and

(51:32):
her relationship's evolution up close and her partner's
evolution. It's really something fucking
special. And I'm like, oh, this is real
love. This is, this is the real thing.
Because it's been hard. And you guys just, you keep, no
matter what, you both claw your way back.
It does not fucking matter. And, and it's been, it's and
it's not, again, in most cases with most people, but for sure.

(51:53):
And y'all's 'cause I'm, you know, have purview into it.
The things that are happening, the things that are coming up
are not being done purposefully.It's like you guys both dealt
with life in certain ways and were hurt in a lot of ways.
And now you have to unravel all of that.
And you're poking each other's, you're filling each other's
feathers up, you know, and getting a little.
And I think that should be kind of the approach for all

(52:16):
conversations around this specific topic, this this whole
concept of non monogamy, this whole concept of monogamy.
It's like. You.
Have to come into these conversations with your partner,
recognizing that you each have your own entire lived experience
up to this date leading up to and influencing the way you're

(52:37):
showing up in this conversation and their needs.
If you're choosing each other, you got to deal with both.
All of it. All of it.
Yep, Yep, wow, thank you so much.
This was a really great conversation.
I was like I said, I was a little nerf sided because I was
like, how am I? I haven't talked about this
really in synthesis, but I I think the conclusions that we

(52:59):
came to are pretty fucking solidand I'm just going to kind of
like drop those lines here. First and foremost, freedom does
not exist outside of you. Neither does safety you.
Can even be and I think we've talked about Victor Viktor
Frankel on the show. You can even be totally
externally trapped and have the inexperience of freedom

(53:19):
internally. So there's that.
Your actual freedom is your freewill choice, your ability to
choose. Then we talked about and really
got grounded in the fact that there isn't really a one that's
more evolved or less evolved. It's really about the feel
you're coming to it with. Why are you doing it?
And then we talked a lot about and Mellie gave you some really

(53:40):
good ideas and practices for like how to face yourself and do
the work. Because it doesn't really matter
what relationship container you're in.
If you are not facing yourself, if you are not steering into the
skid, if you are not being brutally honest, if you aren't
going into those depths, it doesn't really matter.
You're not evolving. That's just not what evolution
is and how it works. So there we go.
So we determined non monogamy isnot more evolved.

(54:04):
Why not? However, two evolved ass
motherfuckers, 3 evolved ass motherfuckers in a container
plus more, sure. Yeah, have at it.
Have at it. Go for it.
Grow, baby, grow. All right, Thank you all for
tuning in. We would love, love, love, love,
love, love to hear what you haveto say.
Think, especially if you're a hater, please throw a comment
down, like rate, subscribe, share.

(54:27):
It really helps our channel. It helps people get to see us.
The algorithm likes it when you interact.
So please do. Love you all later babes.
Thank you for listening to Babe Philosophy.
If you enjoyed the show, please like, rate and subscribe
wherever you listen and follow us on Instagram at Babe dot

(54:48):
Philosophy later. Babes.
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