What does Enneagram say about my sex life? with Lyndsey Fraser, LMFT

Episode Transcript
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Hi everybody, welcome back to the Pay Philosophy podcast.
We're here. I do wait lived as like really,
really fun intros and I keep mine like very mild.
So we're back. I'm so excited for this podcast
because we have Lindsay Frazier here today as a guest.

(02:08):
And I recently discovered Lindsay on Instagram because I'm
a big Enneagram fan. And I think you did a
collaboration recently with somebody that I followed and I
found your content and Lindsey'scontent combines Enneagram
information about Enneagram and sex, which I was like, my mind

(02:31):
just like exploded all over my telephone screen.
I was like this, this woman's freaking Instagram page is going
to blow up. And so I had to immediately
message her and say, will you please come on our podcast?
And she agreed and she's here. And Liv and I are stoked because
we have never met Lindsey before, but we are both big fans
of enneagrams and sex. So Lindsey, do you mind

(02:54):
introducing yourself briefly? What are you about?
Yes, I'm a license marriage and family therapist as well as a
certified sex therapist out of Minneapolis, MN where I have
like a little private practice. Actually one friend says don't
call it a little practice. I have a practice for the last
13 years where I specialize in relationships and sexuality

(03:16):
utilizing the angiogram and I'm also an IA accredited
professional which is the International Angiogram
Association credentials as well.Amazing.
Oh my God, I can't wait to dive in.
OK, so today's question is, whatdoes Enneagram say about my sex
life? And maybe we can start by just

(03:38):
kind of like giving a little breakdown of what the Enneagram
is for people maybe listening who actually don't even know
what Enneagram is. Could you mind?
That and also where they can andwhere they can take it, because
people are immediately gonna want to take this.
Yeah, yeah. I well, the angiogram, basically
the way I describe it is that there's nine different ways that
we all approach the world. And then within that there are

(04:02):
the tendencies that we have or the things that we're most
afraid of, as well as the gifts sort of each type brings.
So I'm an angiogram type 9, which is the peacekeeper.
And for me, my biggest fear is sort of having discomfort in the
environment or having conflict with others.
And so really what I'm looking for is harmony, Shalom, peace,
kind of having all of that within my environments.

(04:25):
And I think one of the things I also mentioned, which is really
essential for the sexuality piece, which not everybody knows
in relationship to the angiogram, but is also like what
your instinctual stacking or a dominant instinct is.
And with that you have kind of three evolutionary ways that we
want to survive in the world, which is social self

(04:45):
preservation and sexual instinctdominant.
And the reason I'm mentioning this because it's so essential
to the sexuality piece is because that will, that is the
framework of how you approach sexuality and your angiogram
type actually comes in and kind of sets the nuance around that
as well. So you'll be more similar to
someone with the same instinctual dominant instinct
than you would be with someone of the same type, which is

(05:07):
different than other areas of life where you might be more
similar to someone with the exact same type.
Interesting, so now you really focus on enneagram as it
pertains to sex, is that true? Yes, that is true.
So tell me, what is it about sex?

(05:30):
That or excuse me, what is it about any gram that informs sex?
It was actually quite huge. So I was a marriage and family
therapist and a certified sex therapist before I was aware of
the angiogram. And so I brought the angiogram
into my practice probably about 10 years ago now.
But before that I had been kind of practicing.

(05:51):
And really why I went into the sexuality field to begin with is
I didn't see people like me in the sexuality world.
Most of the work that we see outthere is actually written by
sexual instinct, dominance, which I can get to more later
on. And So what what would happen
for clients is that we would seethe sexuality work that's out
there, the books that were written and all of these things

(06:12):
and clients and myself, we're not necessarily seeing ourselves
in that. And so I wanted to become a sex
therapist so that I could help people that were similar to
myself as well as, you know, helping them feel normal kind of
in who they were sexually. And the angiogram gave me a ton
of information. It was sort of the key to
understanding this. So when I was alluding to sort

(06:33):
of these different instinctual stockings, each one makes a
different meaning out of sex. And so for self preservers, for
instance, it's like they need like they need everything to
kind of be just right before they want to be sexual.
So am I fed? Do I have enough?
You know, am I like, have I beenstressed today?
You know, am I hot, Am I cold? Like if those needs are not met,

(06:53):
it's really hard for them to actually actualize sexual
desire. And what you will, what you will
see is, is that for social dominance, it's all about
bonding and connection to the partner.
They tend to be more tallies of like, when's the last time we
had sex? I don't know if we're still
close and connected. They might then try to like
initiate sex with their partner to keep that connection there.
But as you notice as I'm saying that it's like not to say about

(07:16):
sexual pleasure for them, it's about keeping the bond with the
partner going and sexual instinct down.
It's all about that juicy sexualelectric energy playing with
that, that give and take back and forth.
And so you could see like when you have different instinctual
stacking and how that would significantly impact partners in

(07:36):
relationship. And then you bring in the little
nuance around anagram type. So for instance, I know Liv, you
said you were A7. Sex is all about fun and play
and adventure. And that's not true for Mellie,
who's a four. It's about the depth and the
connection and the sensuality. And what you will see for 4 is

(07:56):
like sometimes that piece, the before piece, not even actually
sex itself is so much more essential, like having that soul
connection, that deep sensual connection with the partner.
And so you can see even outside of like how different partners
have like different needs and different wants sexually as
well. Yeah, I actually, I haven't
heard about this like sexual instinct piece of things.

(08:20):
This is really the first time this has come into my awareness
and it's definitely got my attention.
And you named like 3 different kinds are is that all there are?
How many of them are there? I'm just really curious.
I've literally never even had a concept.
This was a topic. Yeah, yeah.
In the angiogram role, they often will refer to it as
subtypes. And so you have like a dominant
instinct that is your primary way or the instinct you think

(08:43):
you need the most in the world to sort of survive.
So I'm a social dominant, for instance.
And so for me, you know, sexuality is all about bonding
and connection to the partner. And then the second, the second
instinct is the one you usually have a pretty good handle on.
And then the third one is the one that's kind of repressed or
you don't think is as important.So for me, the sexual instinct
is in that last position. And so sometimes, like in past

(09:06):
partnerships, for instance, for me, I would want partners would
want to play with this like sexual energy and this electric
charge. Like I would like not have a
clue what they were talking about.
I've actually been doing a ton of work to act interestingly
enough, like wearing bright clothing is one way to kind of
bring it out more within yourself.
But you can imagine, right? Like if you come from the lens

(09:26):
of a sexual instinct dominant, where sex is all about that
electrical charge and that give and take and that back and
forth, and your partner doesn't know what that is or doesn't
know how to engage with you thatthat could be really like, you
may not feel desired, you may not feel wanted.
And you know, here I am like, well, we're spending time
together and I'm tending to you and taking care of you and, and

(09:47):
sure we can be, we can be sexually intimate, not realizing
like what they were like actually wanting and meeting and
from me and things like that. So I've had complaints from
previous partners. My partner right now is a self
preservation dominant. So I don't get the complaint
from him, but I have gotten complaints from sexual instinct
dominant partners. So this is actually a part of

(10:08):
Enneagram. It is a part of Enneagram.
Yep. So it depends on kind of what
teacher you're looking at, but like Beatrice and Urania will
call it your subtype. Some other people might use your
instinctual stacking. And so like, so basically what
it comes down to then for angiogram types is there are 27
different types of people based on your instinctual stacking and

(10:29):
your dominant instinct. So you so you could have like
even within, so even within sevens, for instance, there's
three different types of sevens,there's three different types of
fours that exist as well. Interesting SO.
Wish I had my enneagram in front.
I know, me too. What about this?
I'm thinking back to thinking myEnneagram test and I first don't

(10:49):
feel like I where would I have seen this part of that of of the
test or does that does that cut?Oh, go ahead.
I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead.
It depends on what test you took.
So like the Riso Hudson one willpull it out and some of the but
some of the ones that you take on.
So I'm always in the sense of like tests only gets you so far.

(11:12):
There are certain types that aregoing to test wrong.
So for instance, like my type, the nines and the six is almost
always test strong when they take tests, but it depends on
what tests that you will take that will kind of pull out that
instinctual stacking. There's like reality I think
that has one. They will tell you in that one
that's usually kind of a free 1 you can do.
There's the Riso Hudson one thatyou can pay for through their

(11:33):
site as well, which I think is the Anagram Institute.
There's all kinds of different ones there.
But honestly, you could really even, I think when people read
the different instinctual stackings, you sort of have a
like Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, this is this is me.
So a lot of times I will. One of the person that has a
really good description of them is John Luckovich.
He's done a bunch of work in theanagram work world and he also

(11:56):
wrote a book on Anneogram instincts that's out there and
he's he's all he's a sexual for so, but he's got some really
good information sort of out there in his books.
A lot of people will see themselves sort of sort of
within there. So you probably got it and maybe
you didn't notice it or you tooka test that didn't have it.
So when you say you just said he's a sexual for when you say

(12:19):
that there somebody's a sexual something, is this number, is
their sexual number different than their baseline number?
Well, that's his instinct. So he's a four who is dominant
in the sexual instinct, which means that he wants the
intensity, he wants to feel alive.
Is that plane of sexual energy back and forth.

(12:40):
For instance, in the sexual world, sexual instinct dominance
tend to be more intense in general, unless you're looking
at like an A9. Actually, nines tend to be even
with the sexual instinct dominant, maybe a little bit
more subdued, but most of the time sexual instinct dominance
have a little bit more intensityto them and how they approach

(13:01):
the world. They go towards the things that
they're super passionate and excited about.
If I find somebody in a room andI'm like, I click with them, I
feel that energy. They're like they can't they
can't not go to them and like know more about them, whether
it's romantic interest or just even, you know, a person that
they find interesting. It's not necessarily always
romantic in nature, but they definitely need that there for

(13:23):
partnership where self preservation or social may not
in the same way. So interesting.
I feel like there is so much information coming at me right
now that I'm like, I didn't evenknow any of this existed.
So when you cuz you, do you workwith couples and individuals or
both? And when people come to you, do

(13:46):
you tend to incorporate Enneagram through your like
treatment to help people with whatever it is they need help
with? Or is that something that only
comes in as people are appropriate for it?
I don't know what that criteria would be, but.
I actually use it with everybody.

(14:08):
So some people seek me out because I have that piece and
they already are wanting someonethat has angiogram knowledge and
is a sex therapist that can workwith them.
But even the clients that come to me that are not coming from
that lens, I do help them discover that sort of within the
first few sessions. Because I do feel like what I

(14:28):
have found is like once I started incorporating the
angiogram in my practice, especially in the sexuality
work, things moved so much more quickly.
Couples had so much more generosity for each other.
Individuals felt like more solidin like, hey, I'm normal,
there's nothing wrong with me because you know, because I view
and think about sexuality may bedifferent than the mainstream

(14:50):
does. And so a lot of it has been
extremely healing in the practice and we make just
progress so much more quickly. And so I always tell people when
they come in, I, you know, not all therapists do this anymore,
but I always have offered a 330 minute consultation just because
I feel like it's so important tofeel out who the therapist is
because like we know for therapy, the most connected you

(15:11):
are. And so I tell people sort of in
that consultation like, hey, I use this tool and after the
first session I'll have you takea test.
But tests aren't necessarily always accurate.
And we're going to help you discover sort of what that your
anagram type and your instinct is.
So interesting. So when you are working with
people and you're working on their sex life and you are

(15:32):
incorporating the Enneagram, you're saying that it really
expedites the process of like finding, you know, their groove.
And I'm curious, what is it about the nature of introducing
this tool that seems to be beneficial for people?
Like what? What does it provide for them?
I know you said like it makes them feel not alone, but like I

(15:52):
feel like there's more there. Yeah.
I mean, I think what happens is is.
So for instance, like what's really common to come into my
office is what we would call like a desire discrepancy.
So one person appears to have higher desire, one person
appears to have lower desire. Oftentimes for the person that
has the higher sexual desire, what's happening for them is
like they feel like I'm not desirable, I'm not attractive,

(16:15):
my partner doesn't love me. You know, all of these kinds of
things are swirling in their head and the experience that
they're having. And sometimes their partners,
like I do love you a lot and I'mdoing all these things to tend
and take care of you. And just because it isn't sexual
chemistry and intimacy doesn't mean that I don't feel connected
and bonded and close to you. And a lot of times what we're

(16:36):
finding, especially in that typeof dynamic is, is like it may be
a sexual instinct dominant person with a person who is
dominant in self preservation. And so then what you get with
that is like once I can even just bring that language in for
them and self preservers, like how they often times feel the
most loved is like, are you bringing me my coffee?
Are you like if if you're a one,are you cleaning up the house or

(16:58):
helping me gain the To Do List done, You know, these types of
things. And so like I'm doing all these
things for you to show you how much I love you.
But the sexual instinct Dom is like, do you desire me?
Do you want me? Do you love me?
And when I bring that language in, there's sort of this like,
aha, that happens for clients. Like, Oh, so it has nothing to
do about whether you desire me or not.

(17:19):
It's that you feel the most loved when I tend to take care
of you. And that actually like
everything kind of needs to be just right before you want to be
sexual with me. But it has nothing to do with
you, me, you finding me desirable or not lovable or any
of those kinds of things. And so it, it just kind of, you
know, creates a space for the couple then to start talking

(17:40):
about like, well, what's the good enough sex then for us?
Like how do we get a place whereboth of our needs are sort of
being met? And, and I think a lot of times,
like I always call it plan spontaneity for people,
especially if they're self preservers, but in general, this
can be helpful. It's like make it part of your
plan, get your to do's done, youknow, so that you can then have
be in the mindset that you can connect sexually with your

(18:03):
partner. And so I think in that in
combination with the other toolsI use, it just really creates
this like we're just different and one's not better than the
other. And like, how do we figure out
how the the good enough sexuality will be in our
relationship so that both of us feel loved, both of us feel
desired, both of us feel tended to within the relationship as
well? That makes perfect sense.

(18:25):
I have to pause really quick. My computer is going to die and
I need to plug it in. Please excuse me.
OK, So I love that. Basically what it sounds like
you're saying is this tool, if you're in a relationship, can
kind of create a common vernacular and you can kind of
start to debug these miscommunications when you're
interpreting something because your lens is the lens that you

(18:47):
have and you don't have your partner's lens.
And now you've got this like container, this common language
to speak from and go that actually isn't personal to me at
all, which I think conceptually a lot of us will understand, but
we can't see how it's not personal until we see how it's
not personal. So I love that so much.
I am, as you've been talking, I've, I've been giggling to

(19:08):
myself quite a bit, especially because you've mentioned the
sexual instinct dominance quite a bit.
And as you're talking, I'm like,that is definitely me.
That is so definitely me on top of being A7 and I have also been
I'm I'm I'm in a moment of singlehood, which is very good
and chosen and desired by me. And I'm really like looking at
my patterns and how I've shown up with men and what isn't

(19:31):
working for me. And I've been talking to Mellie
a lot about like, I feel like I'm learning a very basic bitch
lesson, which is like, don't lead with sex.
And at the same time, it's so it's like how I noticed people
like when you were like, oh, they just will notice someone in
the room. Like that's what happens to me.
I will like literally just energetically be like that guy.

(19:54):
And as soon as I lock in, I'm like a freaking great white.
I'm like, hi, how are you? And then we end up in a thing
and then somewhere in there I'm like, Oh no, this was a bad
idea. It was really fun.
But like now my life's blowing up.
So I'm. I kind of wanted to just like
talk about if you're like singleand you notice you have these
like rote patterns in your relationship.

(20:15):
And I want to say especially forsexual women, because not only
is that like kind of messed up in our societal structure, how
to be a sexual woman, a lot of that just gets totally repressed
or turned into you're a massive slut and sleeping with
everybody, which is it's OK if you choose it, but I think a lot
of us do it reactively. I did it reactively.

(20:36):
I thought that was the only way that I could, you know, get
love, receive love, be seen. And now I'm kind of like, OK,
but I also would like long term partnership.
But I also have this deep seatedfear that I'm going to fall in
love with someone, not start with the sex, get to the sex and
be like, I hate this. I can't say you're a beautiful
person, but like I'm going to cheat on you or kill myself.

(20:59):
Like those are the only two choices that I feel accessible
to me. I know that's dramatic, but for
me, it's like that. Playing with that energy, having
that connection, knowing I'm desired, being honestly like
devoured on a regular basis makes my life feel better and I
enjoy my partnerships better. So I would love to just hear
from your perspective, maybe that particular thing, but just

(21:20):
in general for anyone who's like, I'm single and I have this
moment to know myself and my sexuality and maybe Enneagram's
the tool to do it. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a
there's a lot there. And like one of the things that
I think of too is sometimes is like for sexual instinct
dominance, like when that like pole is there, they can almost
be like moths towards flames andif they're not careful kind of
burn themselves. It's not about getting rid of

(21:40):
that like that. That's going to be who you are.
Like you are going to be more ofa person that leads with sexual
energy and play in things like that.
It may be being more discerning about like once you start to
have that attraction around, like does this person have the
other things I need, want and desire in a partnership, Right.
And so to me, it's like I've always had the stance like all

(22:02):
of us should be choosing the sexual experiences that we want,
whether that's, you know, spontaneous sex with strangers,
if that's, you know, I don't want to until we've been dating
three months or like whatever that might be.
That's not a right or wrong withthat.
I just want people choosing thatand be and recognizing that
that's what they want and doing it from a place of authenticity
versus like, I need to do it to earn love or I need to because

(22:25):
we've been dating such and such a period of time we should.
But like, to me, it's like, if you have, you know, attraction
to someone in the moment and it leads to sex and you feel that's
authentic, like, why wouldn't you go for that?
And I know that that's really against sort of what our culture
is going to say, right? Like that, that word that we
give women of being like sluts or promiscuous or whatever else.
Like I think we need to get rid of that language and be it more

(22:47):
about like we get to decide whatsexually feels right for us, not
what society tells us we should be.
I think what I find with sevens in particular is it's like sex
is fun and it's playful and the minute somebody wants to get
serious with you or wants more emotionality, there is sort of,
and I don't know if this is trueor not for you, Liv.

(23:08):
Like there can be sort of this like internal panic that can
happen for A7. Like that's too.
I don't want to be serious. I don't want uncomfortable
feelings and sort of that fleeing or running away from
when it's sort of like, can I sit in it?
Can I, you know, like, so like one of the things that my
colleagues, Sam and I that do a lot of work together, you know,
one of the things that, you know, we have mentioned is sort

(23:29):
of like that, you know, for sevens like stay in bed and
snuggle and cuddle afterwards. And most of them do not want to
do it. They want to hop up to the next
thing. Yeah, so that was me.
That was me for a really long time.
And I learned how I was married and I, he has his number one

(23:49):
love language was physical touchand he was a big cuddly person.
And that was really hard for me.I'd spent my entire young
adulthood literally just doing one night stands and I'd wake up
in the morning at like 7:00 AM and be like, you need to leave.
Like they I would just kick themout.
I was always bringing them back to my place so I could kick them
out. Keep the power.
Then I met him and he was actually pretty cool.
So hunkered down with him for some time and I kind of broke

(24:12):
that barrier and was able to just like meet him in his love
language. And then I found my own desire
for it. But it really wasn't until my
most recent partnership, which was also my most toxic and
sexually intense partnership, that I actually really like let
myself drop into my emotions anddrop into my vulnerability and
drop into my femininity. And now the I think why I'm

(24:35):
feeling like so much confusion and so much like push pull is
because now I want those two things to go together.
And before I didn't before it was totally cool to just like
have casual sex. And I didn't even have casual
sex. I just had casual like heavy
petting recently and it didn't come with the emotional safety I

(24:57):
wanted it to come with. And I was a total mess.
And then I didn't know what to do because I'm like, I've never
been like this before. I feel like I'm broken now or
there's like something I'm learning or maturing and so
totally identify with that. And then now that I've broken
the barrier and I'm like, emotions and sex go together
now. I'm kind of like what do I what
the fuck do I do now? How do I like be A7, be a sexual

(25:18):
instinct and also keep my heart safe?
Well, I mean, I think that's thechallenge, right, because it's
actually that that's the growth point for the seven is to
actually be able to be in your emotions.
And what you're recognizing is actually you want an emotionally
intimate sexual relationship that's got a lot of energy with
it. And I think you shouldn't settle
for less than that, right. And I think a lot of I mean, to

(25:39):
me, it's like yay, because like so many sevens spend most of
their lives chasing and running away and not being OK with sort
of that, that emotional intimacythat comes with sex.
Like if you've already learned that, But it's also really,
really, really scary for A7 in particular.
It wouldn't be scary for a four if we go to Melly because they
like being in the the deep emotions with people, right?

(26:00):
It can be scary for people like me too, that are nines because
it's like if it's its intensity and it causes discomfort.
But I think like for you, this is also again, like just why
even anagram type is so essential, right?
We're we're, I'm giving you the example of three people sitting
here and what we need for growthis going to look really
different, right? You know, and I think even just

(26:21):
recognizing that, but I think it's just paying attention to
like, you know, I do think that all those things can exist.
It's and I think that it's finding the person that you can
do that with, which means you'regonna go through a lot of people
that can't give you that and that's gonna suck.
Yeah, this is actually really I'm, I'm actually again, you
said this at the beginning. It brings people peace and that
they're normal and there's nothing wrong with them.

(26:42):
And I'm having that moment rightnow.
And I really want to name that because, you know, in the
aftermath of going emotions and sex, wow, that's amazing.
There's even more energy to play.
And I love my heart being open and I like being able to cry
with, with, you know, somebody holding me.
I'm actually like starting to realize that that peace, it is
very scary for me. And so it's super duper tender.
And I think that's actually whatwent wrong for me in this most

(27:05):
recent interaction that I had with a man who I was like, you
know, he had the kind of same vibes going on.
And it was great together. And then I was super sensitive
afterward and like tiny things that normally would just not
have bothered me. In fact, I would have been like,
thank God you're not paying attention to me.
I was like, where's the presence?
Where's your vulnerability? Where's your heart?

(27:27):
And you putting the name to it that it is scary is like, oh, it
is scary for me to do that. And I just fucking did it.
I like ripped the Band-Aid off and was like, look at my heart.
And now I'm sitting in the insecurity of like, was that OK?
Am I still desirable? Am I still sexy?
Was that too much? Am I too much of A girl?
Like I'm just going into all of the fear, the fear thinking, I
guess. So thank you for that.

(27:48):
That brought me a lot of. Peace.
I love that. Yeah, I, I am so resonating with
the four and the diving into theemotion because I am such a
like, tell me the depth of you. Like, I just want to know, like
what makes you tick? Can we just lay in bed for hours
and just talk? That's so, that's so me.

(28:11):
And it's so funny because in allof my partnerships, I think sex
has been such a, there's been such easy access to sex and not
necessarily in all of the best ways, but like it's always been
a very abundant, accessible thing that has never really like
when I, I would hear about people like having problems with
sex and intimacy and I'd be like, I don't get that.

(28:33):
What, why would you have that problem?
Like it just didn't makes sense to me because it was just so far
from my reality. But now that I'm in the current
partnership that I'm in, me and him are so much more connected
by our like support for each other and our like friendship
and our values and just everything else is just so

(28:57):
aligned. But sex is the area that's like
the most challenging, I think, because you're so different in
that space. He's a three and I'm a four.
And I find that that he experiences like a lot of
pressure from me to like be a certain way and go to a certain
depth. And you know, and that is very.

(29:19):
And that like makes him kind of,oh, excuse me, He turns away
from it all together because it's like, it's almost, it's
like too much. And then I, it's just like the
narrative that you were sharing about somebody with like a big
sexual appetite. They're like, you don't love me,
I'm not attracted to you. Like that's something that I
experience a lot and something that I get into my head about a

(29:39):
lot. So I'm, I would love to.
And I feel like that's somethingthat women a lot of times
experience if they're not havingsex with their man, it's like,
am I not desirable? Do you not love me?
Like, am I not? Am I not enough for you?
I score keep. I do.
I'm like it's been 4 days and 12hours.

(30:01):
He hasn't touched my butt. He was touching my butt 7 times
every 30 minutes 4 weeks ago. What has happened?
Like I and I don't want to do it.
I just, I'm doing it and then I can't stop and then I don't know
what to do. Yeah.
I would love if you could speak to that because I feel like
that's a very prevalent scenariothat women find themselves in

(30:24):
and. Interestingly enough, actually a
lot of men do too. They just don't talk about it.
Yeah, yeah. And it was interesting too,
because like I was hearing he's like, because you have a you
have a partner that's a three, right?
And so, you know, you, you have what's called the attachment try
which are your 36 and 9. And so what's different about

(30:47):
those 3 is that they're always looking to the partner about how
they should show up. And this goes to how they should
show up sexually. So for him as a three, what do I
so he's going to look to you about like what do I need to do
to be impressive or successful sexually to you?
And if it if it feels and it's like there is kind of this

(31:07):
looking to you to how to show upversus like knowing internally
what they like or want for the nines, like what do I need to do
to accommodate you? So we're not going to have
conflict or issue. And then the sixes do it in the
sense of like, what do I need todo so that there's security,
safety or reassurance from the partner.
But a lot of times those three don't know what they like
sexually unless they've done a lot of work on themselves

(31:29):
because they're looking to the partner.
Yo, this is explaining her partner so much.
This is really deeply helpful for her.
I'm sure it's it's helping me and I'm not even in the
relationship. I'm just like, oh so much
compassion. Yeah, yes, I could totally see
that. So I would love to speak to the
triads a little bit. So the the triad is the 369 and

(31:51):
then the there's is it like a 24?
248 is the rejection and then I'm like going to have like a
mind blank. It's rejection or frustration.
The other ones are the frustration triad, which is the
one seven and 117. Like now I'm like having like.

(32:14):
175157. No, the rejection types are one
are two, five and eight and thenit's 1-6 and seven, OK.
So what's the what was the triadwith a three?
Is it the three and the nine? It's.
Called the attachment triad. Yeah.
And that's 369 or is that 393? 69 Yep. 369 Damn she.

(32:40):
And So what? Tell tell us about the other two
triads. What is what does that mean?
The rejection and the I forgot what the other one was.
Frustration. Frustration.
Yeah. So the rejection types are
always anticipating that they'regoing to be rejected.
And so there can always be a fear of rejection.
Is that the four? No 4 would be 4/4 is a

(33:02):
rejection. Yes.
Oh my God, that's so me. It's stupid.
Yes, I was. About to say yo, that's
definitely not. So dumb.
And then she would be at the seven would be a frustration
type. So what they're always looking
for if things were so it's it's not it's not one.
It's 1. So it's 1/2 I can I cannot think
today, guys, that's. OK, that's OK.

(33:24):
It's a lot to remember with a lot of number of combinations.
Put on the spot, you know, for what it is, what head type is in
there. But the frustration types are
always looking like they're always frustrated like if things
were just right. So for ones, for instance, it's
sort of like it, you know, like like sex, like they're looking
for like what's the good enough sex, which I know neither one of
you are a one. And then it's like, well, if

(33:44):
things were just a little bit better, things would sex would
go better. Life was just a little bit
better. So they're constantly
frustration frustrated and that would be sort of like where they
would stand. And then sevens are also
frustrations like it's on to thenext thing.
Like I'm going to have more fun doing this next thing versus
where I am right now. So I'm feeling frustrated in the
moment of looking to the future thing that will will fulfill

(34:05):
that will fulfill that for them.I can't tell you how often, not
with my most recent partner, he's like literally the only
person who's kept my attention the entire time we're having sex
every time. But everyone else I've ever
slept with, somewhere in there, I'm like, it'd be better if it
was like this. It'd be better if it was like
this. It'd be more fun.
It's like this. Oh my God, we've been doing the
same thing for 20 minutes. Are we done with this yet?

(34:26):
Like, and I hate it. I hate it.
I'm like be present, be present.Well, if he was doing this, it's
really frustrating. Yeah, there's the word.
It's very frustrating. Yeah, I can also resonate with
it. For me when I want to try new
things in the bedroom or if I'm feeling creative or curious and
I bring it in, I'm like, I will be paralyzed in my fear of being

(34:49):
rejected. So I won't even speak to it
because I'm so scared of rejection.
So that is Dang me and Liv are learning so much about ourselves
right now. I can't wait to go like reread
my angiogram and look at my preservation ties.
I don't need to. Oh my God.
OK. I didn't have a question because

(35:09):
I'm so involved in my own experience right now.
OK, so I, I, I have a curiosity if there is, if it's very
prescriptive and specific or if,because these are like kind of
all patterns, if there is like amethodology to let's say I, you
know, I go and get my assessment.
I have my assessment. I've listened to this podcast.
I'm aware that I have some shadow behaviors or things that

(35:34):
if I were more aware of them, I could maybe communicate better
or come up with some strategies.Do you have like a a methodology
or a practice or something that you recommend people start with
to maybe bring more awareness tothese things and also figure out
what their actual desires are and how to communicate that I.
Think that you know, part of it is is like is there a specific

(35:55):
you know, there's lots of factors.
Well, one factor around sexuality too is it's like even
despite your anagram type and your instinctual stacking, all
of us have, I just kind of give this disclaimer like, you know,
messages we received around sex,family messages, society
messages, church messages, you know, unwanted sexual
experiences, sexual assault or sexual abuse.
And you're going to have kind ofthat additional layer sort of

(36:18):
that's going to create whatever happens around sexuality for
you. And so there isn't sort of like
a clear methodology of like thisis what it looks like for every
single person. And even like with angiogram
types, you know, the kind of theanalogy of like, you know, type,
there's like maybe all nines arered, right?
But she could have a shade of pink to deep, deep red.

(36:39):
And they're going to all have the same motivation, but they
could all look really different depending on who they are and
their circumstances and things like that.
There are some clear cut, you know, like, you know, my
colleague that I do a lot of work with, Sammy Greenberg has a
lot of research on the, she did her research project on the
angiogram and sexuality. And there's some tendencies that
come out. So for instance, there is a

(37:00):
sexual triad, which is 7-8 and four, which you are both part of
it, which means that you tend tobe able to actualize sexual
desire much more quickly and more easily and have more of it
than say some of the other typeswould.
And then we have ones that are kind of on the opposite end of
that as well, which tend to be like you're 9/6 and five, except

(37:20):
for your sexual 5 will be a little different.
So, and, and I think what I loved about Sam's research too,
is she was able to kind of pull out like what kind of cues do
desire cues do certain types kind of want right?
And they tend to fit pretty well.
So there is some like tendenciesand then it's more about sort of
that ability to know that we're all unique individuals within

(37:41):
this. What I think is the best thing
if you learn an angiogram type is like what is the primary
motivation around your instinct and your type and an
understanding that's, you know, sometimes, you know, especially
with therapists, it's like if I'm an 8, right?
I'm a woman, that's an 8. I don't need to learn how to be
more assertive. Actually, what I need to do is

(38:01):
step back and give other people space.
Sexually, relationally. I mean, sevens are the same way
they're. All the 8, the 8 is the
challenger, right? Challenger.
Yeah, but for a nine in my therapy practice, like I need to
learn, help them learn how to bemore assertive, how to hold more
space to know what they like andwant sexually, sexually, and not
to be led by the partner or merging too much into the

(38:24):
partner. So there's there is methodology
or framework in the sense in thesexual.
Well, it kind of like what needsto be worked on to be able to
actualize and have more self growth.
And I think like, you know, we think about a lot of times what
you hear for messages for women,it's like, oh, we need to help
women work on being more assertive.
Well, it depends on their anagram type. 3 sevens and

(38:44):
eights don't need to, but you know, maybe.
Maybe you know fours and you know a nine, or you know A5
might need to. What?
What is it that a four needs to work on?
What a four needs to work on. So what I see a lot of times for
fours in therapy is they have anillusion of the perfect person

(39:07):
who the romantic image of the perfect person.
And as they date and are in partnerships, they'll think they
have found the one. And then and then the what I
call it the Rose colored glassesfall and they see the reality of
the person in front of them. And then they go, well, then if
they are not it, that other person must exist somewhere else
and I still haven't found them. That's one piece that I see as a

(39:29):
tendency. The other piece is too is is
like paying attention. There can be almost like liking
sort of the darker emotions or the sadness and kind of being
comfortable sitting in that space, but also recognizing
beauty and the positive emotionsand being able to be in those.
And relationally, what I'll see sometimes is is that fours have

(39:51):
more of a tending more of it, not all of them.
If you are self preservation, maybe not as much, but like more
of like, you know, kind of a roller coaster of emotional
experiences. And then their partners in
relationship to them can kind ofbe like it can be like, I don't
know what to I have AI have. I have a four and six that I
work with and like what she'll say is she's the six and he's
the four. I never know where he's going to
be. And it really overwhelms me to

(40:13):
not know like what emotional state he may or may not be in
and kind of riding that roller coaster of that emotion and
recognizing how your emotions impact others.
If you are the partner of a four, what I always say is they
don't mind being in sadness or dark emotions.
They don't mind being there and you trying to convince them to

(40:34):
get out of that or cheer them upor try to like change that
shift. That mood isn't necessarily
always what they want from you. And sometimes it's just that
ability to sit with them in the moment where they are true you.
It's you that wants them to change, not them.
And so like recognizing that like you need to allow them to
have their emotional expression and depth that exists for them

(40:57):
and that they're not actually uncomfortable with the sad
emotions, you are uncomfortable with them being in sad emotions.
Yeah, that is I resonate with that so much.
And what's coming through for meis that I, it sounds like what
you're saying is it's almost like what I would call like a
karmic curriculum. It's like the Enneagram almost
lays out this like blueprint of like here are your strengths and

(41:22):
here's like the road that like you were saying, like an 8 the
challenger. You don't have to work on being
more assertive like your karmic curriculum, like your curriculum
in this Enneagram is to actuallylearn to to back off a little
bit. And I really appreciate that
because I feel like there's can oftentimes be this experience

(41:43):
like in myself where I'm like, oh, how come this person does
this so easily? And how come that person doesn't
have to work on that? And it's like I refer back to
myself and in looking at myself through like the lens of then
the container of the Enneagram, it's like, OK, like, this is my
curriculum. This is the thing that, like, my
superpower happens to be in thisdirection.
And this is like my weakness andmy weak point in the area where

(42:06):
I can like, develop and grow. And it's not going to be the
same, the same across the board.Somebody else might be over
there, you know, really amazing and just like being happy all
the time. And I'm like, really Edgar
Allan, poeing it over here and loving to be in my, like,
sadness and my poetic distress. I'm like, but that's just, that

(42:27):
doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me like you
were saying. It just means it's my
personality type, literally, andthat there is an invitation to
recognize that in a way that's my strength, and that if I want
to develop in other ways, my work is in the opposite
direction. Yeah, it gives you it gives you

(42:48):
the framework for the work. And also at each, each one of
these brings beautiful gifts to the world.
And when they can actualize that, it's like the ability like
he's like the Edgar Allen Poe orthe ability to just really, I
mean, force have this beautiful gift of like, I think seeing in
the world in a way that none of the rest of us can.
And, and when we can recognize that and embrace that too,

(43:08):
that's kind of what you bring. But then you can't be in
comparison to other people and what they have or what you don't
have, right, Which can also be sort of the, you know, oh, it's
easier for them to be happy thanit is for me, right?
It's like, you know, and the same thing with sevens.
Sevens are innovators. I mean, they like they have
genius ideas. They're fast thinkers.
They like can think of things inways that the rest of us cannot.

(43:32):
But if they don't learn how to like stay less scattered and
stay kind of more in the moment and help the people that, you
know, find the people that they need to help implement those
ideas, none of their beautiful ideas ever come into fruition.
And so it's like that ability tokind of recognize sort of how
each of us brings a gift. And actually we all nine, all
nine types need each other rightat different points in time.

(43:53):
Like, you know, my gift tends tobe, you know, like I can, I can
make it. I can have everybody get along.
Like one of my gifts in a group is like if two people are not
getting along, like I can see their perspective.
I can see their ideas. Like we're like beautiful
diplomats in the sense of like, I will make sure everybody in in
the group is seen for who they are and allow other people to

(44:14):
see them as well. And that ability to kind of
bring that harmony in Group and so that you can have more of
that. And every one of them does that
right in a different way. So this has me thinking and I
know there's new ones and every person has their own story and
it's like how you express your number.
Like I know that there is more depth to the tool and people
than this, but I am curious if there are certain types that are

(44:37):
maybe like more magnetic toward each other and maybe have an
easier time together in a sexualpairing versus 2 that might
struggle a little bit more to find a common ground.
I'm just curious if those are like common known things.
I mean, I, I will say everybody at their healthiest can be a

(44:57):
good pairing. But I do see, I guess the what I
would say is people who are moreattracted to each other, whether
they are a good fit for each other, it can depend.
But like, so for instance, sevens and ones tend to have an
attraction for each other. And that's because they're
really opposites, right? Like your, your ones are your
reformers. They want to make a world a
better place. They tend to be very rigid and

(45:20):
structured and sort of how they see the world and organized and
things like that. And then the sevens can kind of
pull them into play, right. And then for the seven, the one
kind of brings more structure into their life.
It also becomes their main issuewhen they come into therapy for
for me. But I see a lot of sevens and
ones in relationship together. I see a lot of like men that are

(45:42):
nines in particular in relationships with women that
are ones and eights. And I think again, it's because
you know that that one and that eight have that strong presence.
They know what they want. They can kind of bring that in
and you know, and for the one and the 8, the nine kind of
brings that calmness into them. It also becomes so it's kind of

(46:02):
this opposite of tracks thing that I often see, but then it
often becomes the biggest complaint later on, right?
Even though, and then what I remind people is like actually
when you have balance of both ofthose types together, they can
have beautiful relationships. I do see fours and nines in
relationship together sometimes.I'm trying to think women that
are women that are nines tend tobe with fives and sixes.

(46:27):
Men that are, you know, actuallythat was not even gender
related. I see a lot of like same sex
couples that are nines and sixesand nines and fives too.
So. Yeah, I, I feel like that makes
a lot of sense because there's me, so I'm a four and my partner
is a three and and there's we have a lot of similarities, but
the but I'm much more like emotionally driven and he's much

(46:50):
more like goal oriented and likepurpose driven.
And that has brought in so much structure in my life for me,
Like being with him has created so much structure that I didn't
have before. And being with me has brought
him into his emotion in such bigways that he didn't have access

(47:10):
to before. And it is also like the crux of
our relationship, right? It's like, why are you still
working? Like I want to hang out with
you, you know, and it's like, why are you crying?
Like it's not a big deal. It's like it is the the thing,
the very thing that brought us together, the very thing that
makes our bond so strong is alsothe thing that we can't stand

(47:33):
about each other at the very same time.
So I can completely see that 100%.
So in the Enneagram, in the Enneagram world.
I'm curious just from from like your personal experience, did
you come into Enneagram after becoming a therapist, a licensed

(47:56):
therapist to enhance your practice or was it the other way
around? I was a therapist, a therapist
and sex therapist first before Ibrought the angiogram in.
I was actually introduced by some other therapists here that
are in the community in Minneapolis.
For me, it was even just huge for my own personal growth.
There were already things that Iknew as far as being a little

(48:18):
bit conflict avoidant in my, youknow, my past, maybe some
passive aggressiveness when I was afraid of having conflict
with a partner or friends and things like that.
And knowing that really what I needed to do was be more
assertive. But like, even even outside of
that, like in the therapist, this perspective, I would have
discomfort initially when I started the practice, like when

(48:38):
people would fight and you know,like I'm a couples therapist.
This is what people do when they're with me.
But recognizing that, like I hadto be more comfortable just with
conflict happening around me. And that sometimes actually
allowing clients to argue or have a little bit of conflict in
my office is actually good for them versus me trying to disrupt
it or stop it or not allow it tohappen because it was
uncomfortable for me. And so that ability to kind of

(49:01):
kind of be be in that and it gave me some insight into to
kind of like partnerships. So like my social instinct,
social instincts are really focused on belonging to groups
and wanting to be a part of the group.
And some of the complaints that I would had gotten from previous
partners was like not being as attuned to my partner, like when
we were in social gatherings or wanting to go out and do things

(49:21):
with other people versus being like one-on-one with them.
So like engaging in that sexual instinct energy with them.
And it was really a big aha for me because I'm like, well, I'm
bringing you with because I wantto show you off and I'm really
proud that you're my partner. But then I was so focused on
everybody at the event that I would sort of almost be
neglecting my partner who was here with me and, and that

(49:43):
ability to be like, you know, like I used to think, well,
what's their problem? Like I'm bringing them with
like, what do they expect me to do, sit by their side the whole
time? Yeah.
And then I realized, like, oh, actually they have a very valid
complaint. And when I understand that I'm
social instinct dominant with sexual instinct in the last
position, they want that intensity, they want that
one-on-one attention for me. And that's a very fair request.
And so knowing that now I can show up really differently in my

(50:07):
in my marriage that I have todayand my partner today, he's a
self preservation sexual. And so a lot of the places we
connect is our own self preservation stuff like tending
and taking care of each other. But he does have sort of that,
like it's you and me too, Like he could care less about groups.
That's the finding social in thelast position.
He's like, I don't know why we need to go anywhere.
Like he's a, he's A5, he's a self preservation.

(50:28):
So self reservation Fives reallylike staying at home in the cozy
environment. And he does have, and I'm
talking about him. I'm like, oh God, hopefully
he'll not listen to this. He gets like, I don't know if
you guys know Fives very well, but Fives are like, don't tell
me anybody. That's funny.
He never listens to anything I do, so it's all good.
But he is very private and that's one thing where I've
gotten hung up to like, oh, I'm sharing too much information

(50:50):
about it. Doesn't like it when I do that.
But I've been more. But my point being is like I
that's been a learning for me and also that like because
sexual instinct energy used to be very overwhelming for me, I'm
also like embracing it and recognizing that like for
clients and for myself, like howimportant it is.
So like just having this lens inmy own personal life has helped

(51:10):
me have a much better relationship and marriage.
My history was like I dated all.I didn't get married till I was
35 S I dated a lot. I'd have relationships that
didn't last very long and those kinds of things.
And it was sort of this like, will I ever, will I ever find a
partner? Like I'm sure all of us always
think about right? And then now having been

(51:33):
married, I think we've been married 10 years.
So having that. Ability, Congrats.
Know how to meet, meet my partner's needs.
But yeah, I mean, it's been kindof that, you know, and I do
think the Enneagram helped me inthat because it helped me know,
like, what I needed to work on to show up better in
relationships and how to be a better therapist to my clients
and not, you know, you know, notjudge people that aren't like

(51:55):
me. Yes, that's a good one.
I'm not. Supposed to say that all of us,
all of us as therapists sometimes do in the background,
right? So like taking some of that,
that judgement that you can havetowards clients that maybe you
don't understand or don't recognize.
And the angiogram gave me a lot of like, oh, now I understand
why sevens do this or what eights do this or what you know,
and, and just having a lot more compassion and generosity for

(52:18):
clients. And I'm a better therapist now
because of it, to be honest. Beautiful If somebody so if
somebody's listening to this, they have no idea what an
enneagram was until today. They really want to they're
excited about the possibilities they're excited about the
implications it has for their sex life.
What would your recommendation be for somebody who's like, I

(52:40):
just want to know, like I'm brand new, I just want to know
what do I look at? What do I pay attention to?
What's my first step in like exploring the Enneagram for
myself and like really implementing that information?
What's the priority? Like what's the number one thing
that we want to focus on or thatyou would say?
Yeah, I think that like, you know, I wouldn't necessarily say

(53:02):
like a test is the place to start.
I mean, you could start there ifyou just want to get an idea of
where to look. But I think sometimes what I can
see people do once is I can takea test like, Oh, I'm this type
and I'm like, well, you could, you couldn't be right because no
test is 100% accurate. There are lots of people that if
you ever wanted to do one-on-one, like, you know,
anagram discovery interviews with, there's tons of people

(53:23):
that do those types of things that you could do that with
otherwise. I mean, usually where I send
people like, it's funny, but like there's just like this
anagram made easy book that has really nice little like bullet
points that kind of help you hone in on.
You could even has like little checklist in the beginning.
And then like so oftentimes we'll have people like just get
that book and look at it and what type sticks out to you or

(53:43):
what were you thinking that you might be?
And then you know, the the bigger book that really has tons
of information is the Riso Hudson book, which is like the
anagram of I have it here or not.
I could always send you guys a link if you want it if people.
Want it? But like the the best tests to
take probably that are paid, they'll get you closest to your
type is probably Integrative 9 test or the Riso Hudson test

(54:05):
because they have a little bit more.
I give people the free ones. They never want people to have
to pay and they kind of let you hone in on that as well.
But I think, you know, the placeto start is if you kind of, I
mean, really, honestly, get a, get an anagram typing interview
with someone that can really askyou the right questions and help
you kind of hone in on where youmight be.
There's tons of, I mean, there'sreally great people on

(54:27):
Instagram. I think that, you know, you
guys, I think you found me through Amy's Instagram.
I've been on her podcast. She's got great information out
there. I think it's always hard on
Instagram because there's some people have really good
information on there and there'ssome people that maybe don't
have such great information on there.
So you got to find the people that you know, kind of can can
provide that for you. But really just get, you know,

(54:50):
start looking at books, start following people that you find
are interesting. And if you really want to take
like a test, you could help kindof hone in, but recognize and
that you may not always be what you type.
It's like I'm rambling. No, that would be great.
But so for so let's say they take the test or they have the
consultation, they find out their, their number.
Like now what? You know, it's like if we're

(55:13):
talking about if somebody's coming into this and like, I
wanna make this make my sex lifebetter, it's like, what would
you say to them? Would you tell them to?
What would I mean, I, I think, Imean, I think for like, so if
you want to make your, the unfortunate part is like
they're, you know, because the research on this is really new.
So basically my colleague Sammy Greenberg did her, her, her

(55:33):
thesis on this and did a research project.
And we have one other colleague who's been doing small groups,
but there's really aren't a whole lot of like books or
resources around angiogram and sexuality.
You could definitely follow likefollowing Sam's work or my work.
You're going to get really good knowledge and information there.
Like, you know, you may or may not actually need a sex
therapist. Like one of the things that I
think has been beautiful like that Sam and I have done some

(55:56):
like workshops here and there, you know, and it's like
sometimes just knowing this information around what your
angiogram type is and your instinct has shifted things for
people without necessarily ever having to seek out like
additional coaching or therapy or any of that.
And so like I would even just start there, you know, like you
don't feel free to go to like Sam's site or my site and

(56:16):
consume. We got tons of information
there. We also have a YouTube channel
that has, you know, we do our sexy First Fridays on there and
we do that every first Friday ofthe month if you ever want to
watch us. Amazing.
I love and. So I think there's lots of good
free information to consume around this too.
And I know. And then if you think you can't,

(56:36):
I mean, where I feel like peopleneed to seek out a coach or a
therapist around this is like when you can't, like you have
the generosity and you have the understanding, but you don't
know how to make movement towards having more actualized
desire within your relationship,right?
Or you have some other issues orconcerns and you keep having the
same issue happen over and over and over again without much

(56:57):
relief. One thing that enough people do
not do in relationships is talk about sex.
And so like one of the thing books that I highly recommend
just for couples to have those conversations.
It's called hot and unbothered. She's a she's AI don't even know
this person personally, but she has just got a wonderful book
and it really does like, you know, she's got lays out each
chapter and there's questions for couples just to even have

(57:20):
around like what you need and want.
You're making you think because so in my 13 years of practice, I
have had three people come in with healthy, positive sexual
message messaging. Most of us get shame messages or
taught not to talk about it or that it's shameful or
uncomfortable to talk about. And so most of us don't know how
to ask for what we need or want sexually.

(57:40):
And so even the first place to start is just start talking to
your partner about sex and having any kind of like what I
call it general sexuality book is a great place to start
because then I don't have to share with you like what I want.
I can say, oh, this book was saying this.
What do you think? It creates a very safe, safe
platform for people. And so like, that's a good place
to start. You know, follow some of the
content that Sam and I are doingon Instagram.

(58:02):
Other colleague, he doesn't he'sgreat too, but he doesn't have
any content. He's a sick.
So he doesn't share any of his content, telling him, Frederick,
hear more of your content. Nobody can close you exist.
So it's like he's got he's done some great work too, but he's
hard to find. And that's not unusual for
sixes. By the way, if you guys do know
any Enneagram sixes, there's like this.

(58:23):
They liked sixes and fives like to kind of stay hidden and we
don't know that the beautiful work they have to offer, right.
So those are some of the things that I would suggest and
there's, you know, as far as like, so, you know, my colleague
that I was talking about as well, she does.
Do you know, sex coaching from the angiogram lens as well?
I do angiogram. There's also one other therapist

(58:44):
in Phoenix that is part of our angiogram and sex group that has
that lens as well. Misty, out of Arizona.
They're hard to find though. There aren't a lot of us that
are doing sexuality. I mean, there's no other
certified sex therapists. And yeah, we're just hard to
find that doing this specific work.
Well, Lindsay, where can people find you if they wanted to find
you? Can you let us know what your

(59:04):
Instagram website wherever you'dlike to be found?
Yeah, on Instagram I'm at Lindsay Frazier LMFT and my
first and last name are kind of spelled or can be spelled
multiple different ways. So it's just LYNDSCYFRASERLMFT
on Instagram. My website is just

(59:26):
lindsayfrazier.com. And then I always forget what
the I think the YouTube channel is called.
Lindsay, what did I Lindsey Fraser, LMFT, I believe too, or
anagram sex and relationships aswell.
And then we then we do that. So anything that we do on
Instagram gets put there too. So it's easier for people to
kind of find our lives as well. Beautiful.

(59:48):
Doug, we'll put all of that in the show notes so people can go
click their little hearts out and find their numbers and apply
what they've learned today. Thank you so much, Lindsey, for
being on our show. I'm going to.
Thank. You now and look at my
enneagram. I'm going to go.
Print mine out again and reread it.
And find out more about myself. All right, well, as always,

(01:00:12):
thank you followers for listening.
Please like subscribe, comment, tell us what your Enneagram
number is. Tell us if if you have any
questions, we love you and we will talk to you later.
Later Babes, thank you for listening to Babe Philosophy.
If you enjoy the show, please like, rate and subscribe

(01:00:35):
wherever you listen and follow us on Instagram at Babe dot
Philosophy later. Babes.

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