Fathers and Sons: The Generational Divide

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, my name is John.
This is the podcast that BabyBoomers the Strangest Generation
, and it's Father's Day weekend2025, and I lost my dad at the
age of 96 in March of this year96 in March of this year and it

(00:32):
got me to thinking aboutrelationships between fathers
and sons and how awkward itcould be.
But I'm not quite sure if itwas just me and my dad that had

(00:54):
this type of relationship or ifit was sort of universal.
I mean, I know that I wouldwatch TV shows and dads and sons
got along and you know they hadtheir little problems and you

(01:15):
know Mike Brady would teach GregBrady a lesson about morals and
ethics and the half hour ittook to record the Brady Bunch.
But they never hated each other.
But it seemed like that was aninaccurate depiction of what was

(01:44):
happening between fathers andsons and the generation that I
grew up in.
I was born in 1960.
My father was a Depression-erababy.
He was poor.
He, at a very early age, had to.

(02:07):
His father died.
I know nothing about his fatherand he, at the age of 16, had to
support his mother and hissister and his brother, his

(02:28):
sister and his brother, and thenhe went off to war in Korea and
you know I'd heard all thisstuff when I was a kid and I
thought it was cool andeverything that you know.
Dad went to war and everything.
Sorry about that.

(02:48):
But as I got older I started toask him how did you wind up in
Korea?
You know, what compelled you?
There wasn't a draft at thattime and I asked him why did you

(03:14):
go there?
And he told me he read anarticle in the newspaper about
what was happening in Koreabetween the Chinese North
Koreans and what became SouthKorea.
And he thought that it wasunjust.
And it wasn't just him, it washim and all his buddies and

(03:39):
working class guys that said Mom, we're going to Korea, we're
going to go there, we're goingto fight and we're going to put
our lives on the line.
And I was like what Dad?
What the fuck were you thinking?

(04:00):
I mean, I couldn't do that.
I couldn't live up to that.
I couldn't do that.
I couldn't live up to that.
I couldn't leave my family andgo fight a war that had nothing
to do with me.
I couldn't even understand hislogic.

(04:28):
Vietnam rolls around and I'mtoo young to go to Vietnam Again
.
I'm born in 1960.
And guys my age are well olderthan me, you know my friend's

(04:49):
older brothers and my friend'sdads that were younger were
drafted and had to go to Vietnam.
But a lot of guys boomers, alot of them didn't want anything
to do with it and they fled toCanada and they protested and

(05:14):
they didn't want anything to dowith it and I saw the stark
difference between hisgeneration and my generation.
Now it could be political, youknow.
It could be like.
You know the Koreans reallyneeded us.
I mean, god help us.

(05:35):
Look at North Korea.
If America didn't go there andfight back the Chinese and
communists and fight back theChinese and communists, south
Korea would have been part ofthis weirdo empire that exists
over there.
Vietnam they sold that as thedomino theory.

(05:56):
If Vietnam collapses, then thecommunists the Cold War at the
time, the communists are goingto take over Southeast Asia and
it's just another brick in thewall that's going to eventually
wind up hurting or threateningthe US and democracy and

(06:22):
capitalism, the US in democracyand capitalism.
Honestly, I'm not sure whathappened between my father
running to the draft board andthe boomer guy running to Canada
.
I don't know, and I'm notreally here to talk about wars

(06:48):
and politics.
I'm here to talk about fathersand sons, but that kind of
highlights the differencebetween the two generations.
But one thing that I am prettysure of is that I had a tough

(07:08):
relationship with my father inmy teens, and I think that a lot
of guys my age did, and I thinkit was partly because of this
major shift that happenedbetween Korea and Vietnam and

(07:35):
the prosperity that baby boomersgrew up with.
And when I say prosperity, I'mnot talking about what these
younger Gen Z, x, y's, whateverthat, what what they think that
we had.
I'm talking about a guy thatgrew up in a freaking depression
right, was born in a depressionand, as opposed to me, who grew

(07:59):
up in a.
As opposed to me, who grew upin a three-bedroom house with
one bathroom, four kids, twoadults and five dogs.
So it wasn't like I was livingthe high life, but I wasn't

(08:34):
starving.
There was a major shift, and itwasn't just politics, it was
fashion, it was music, it wasdrugs.
It was music, it was drugs, itwas culture.
Everything changed overnightand we had nothing in common, me

(08:55):
and my dad.
Nothing Except for sports, youknow, I'll dig into that in a
little bit, but everything hedid, I did the opposite.
Everything he said was stupidand everything I said was
ridiculous.
And he would walk in a room andI would get up and walk out.

(09:18):
And I would walk in a room andhe would get up and walk out.
And I'm not talking about a badman at all.
I'm talking about a great man,a great father.
But I'm talking about two menfrom different generations that

(09:42):
were intimately tied throughblood, that just disagreed on
every possible thing that theycould disagree on.

(10:15):
So was this awkward,dysfunctional relationship
between me and my dad during the60s and 70s?
Was it universal?
Well, obviously it wasn't.
I mean, mean, there was guysthat got along with their dads,
but was it universal over eras?
Did it happen in the past?

(10:36):
I remember hearing a uh a radioshow and the host was quoting
somebody and the guy he wasquoting said something like this
this new generation of kids arelazy, they're stupid, they have
no ambition, they don't knowhow to dress, they have no
respect, they're not goinganywhere.

(11:00):
And God, help them.
We're going to have to raisethem and take care of them for
the rest of their lives.
Help them.
We're going to have to raisethem and take care of them for
the rest of their lives.
And I'm thinking, okay, theguy's quoting, like Richard
Nixon or FDR, you know somebody.
It turned out he was quotingSocrates from BC, you know,

(11:24):
before Christ was born.
And I said my gosh, this stuffbetween dads and sons has been
going on since the beginning oftime.
We just had to go head to headand I wondered we're boomers and

(11:49):
I'm assuming you know most ofyou guys that listen to this
show, you're boomers.
You've lost your dad.
He's gone now.
My dad lived so long.
It's just fresh for me.
But I don't know if you hadthat kind of relationship, but

(12:10):
my best guess is that youprobably did.
And I wonder if, because of thetimes, that that the boomers
versus the so-called greatestgeneration, the conflict between
father and son was morepronounced than it was in

(12:34):
previous generations.
And I say that because the waythe world changed so quick, you
know from my dad growing up poor, my dad going off to fight a
war, my dad having to deal withtechnology, new automobiles, new

(13:09):
automobiles, the introductionof drugs into culture, the
introduction of rock music, theintroduction of his short, slick
back hair, sport coat, shinyshoes versus my dungarees,

(13:30):
beat-up sneakers and long hair.
We just tried to be differentthan our dads.
I mean, we worked hard to bedifferent and it pissed them off
because they were tough dudesand I guess dads and sons have

(13:54):
always had this animosityespecially teen sons with their
dads and it tends to fade awayas you get older and you know,
get to know your dad and he getsto know you and you know things
can still flare up.
But there was just this seismicshift in culture that really

(14:24):
made the father-son relationshipa nuclear bomb.
It wasn't just like dad's andad sucks.
Wasn't dad gone?
Johnny's dumb, I can't standlooking at him.
You know it was Dad.
I hate everything you stand forand he's like Son.

(14:48):
I hate everything you stand forand it sucked.
I hated my dad and he never didanything bad to me, nothing.
But you know I'm in this newculture where you know fuck the

(15:14):
man, fuck the establishment,fuck the tie.
I'm not wearing a tie, you knowI'm growing my hair.
I'm saying look it, man, I'mnot playing your game.
My dad's working in a steelmill for the man, hoping to get
a pension and hoping to get thehell out of there, hoping to

(15:36):
feed his family, and I'm goofingaround smoking pot and around

(15:57):
smoking pot, aimless, hating thegovernment, hating America.
You know, and I didn't evenknow shit about politics or
anything like that, but it wasjust a thing to do, man.
You know, my dad's drug was afriggin' Harvey Wallbanger.
You know that's what he woulddrink.
My drug was acid, lsd Pot Shitthat they never heard of and

(16:23):
they didn't know what it was andit scared the shit out of them.
And you know, it wasn't like Iwas an easy kid.
I was an asshole, I was stupid.

(16:49):
I did everything wrong that Icould think of.
I got into tons of trouble.
I had a smart mouth.
My dad actually one summerbanned me from talking.
He said you're going to shutyour fucking mouth because

(17:11):
everything that comes out of itis negative and you're a
smartass and you can't talk tome.
And I was like, really, man, Ican't talk to you.
Well, you know what?
I don't want to talk to you.

(17:31):
And it was a sad day.
We didn't talk, we stoppedtalking.
I remember he would have todrive me Every morning.
He would go to work at the sealplant and he would have to

(17:52):
drive me to a bus stop and everymorning we would sit in silence
on that 10-minute drive and notsay a word to each other and
not say a word to each other.
And I don't know if it was justteenage angst, that teenage

(18:12):
rebellion where you they say,you're just trying to separate
from your parents and show thatyou're independent.
No, I couldn't stand them andhe couldn't stand me.
Now this is it's getting alittle heavy here, because I

(18:32):
love my father and he loved me,but I didn't like him and he
didn't like me.
He was so different than I wasand I did everything I could to

(18:54):
piss him off and he dideverything he could to keep me
in line.
Thank God for my mother,because he would have killed me.
The shit I did.
I did a First recording of thispodcast.
I did.
I'm not gonna publish where Iget into some of the stuff that

(19:17):
I.
I did that as a kid that youwould understand what my father
friggin hated me.
You know he was a stand-up guy,straight arrow, and I was out
of control and I didn't killanybody or anything like that,

(19:38):
but I'd do anything just tofriggin' piss him off.
And then he's got to deal withthese drugs, right?
He don't know shit about thisstuff, but he knows that he
finds a big bag of marijuanaunder my bed and he's like what

(20:00):
the hell is this?
And he thought it was like youknow, heroin.
They didn't know.
And I'm like, dad, you gottaunderstand something, man, you
gotta give me that shit back,because if you don't, I'm in big
trouble.
I remember he just took the bagit was like a quarter pound.

(20:20):
He took it and just threw it atme and told me, get out of here
and get that shit out of myhouse and don't ever bring it
back.
And, uh, he didn't know what hewas dealing with, what it was,
you know, now it's legaleverywhere.
Actually, my dad, in his endstage of cancer, was taking

(20:44):
marijuana and we laughed so hard, me and him, about it about,
you know, when I smoked pot and,you know, sold pot.
Now he's getting it.
Now I'm driving him to thedispensary to get pot and we had
a good laugh over that and itdid really help him a lot with

(21:06):
his appetite and his anxiety ashe went through the late stages
of cancer.
But I'll tell you one thinghe's my father, I'm his son.
He's a good man, I'm an alrightkid.

(21:26):
Yeah, I'm an asshole, but youknow I'm a teenage asshole.
You never know what I'm goingto wind up being, but you're
pretty sure I'm going to be anasshole as a teenager.
And there was one thing my daddid that was so smart.
He kept two mitts baseball anda bat and even though we

(21:56):
couldn't talk to each other, wewould get out and throw that
ball back and forth, throwgrounders, pop flies, and we'd
have fun and we'd connectwithout talking, because he knew

(22:17):
, you know, I got to hold on tothis kid somehow, and this is
the one thing that I know thathe knows is sports and we
watched sports together and wereally connected.
Man, I remember I grew up in anNFL city with a hockey team and

(22:37):
basketball and NBA team and youknow me and my dad, we did that
.
We were into boxing and nomatter how bad shit was, no
matter what the stupidestfucking thing that I did, god
damn if the bills were playingSunday me and him were there and

(23:01):
talking and watching.
Now, these guys were tough,these greatest generation.

(23:21):
I don't know why I don't likethat phrase.
It just they were great, butit's just an awkward phrase.
Anyway, he was part of thatgeneration that just came from
nothing and reshaped America,and they had no emotions.

(23:50):
These men had no emotion at all.
I'll tell you something theywere full of emotion, but their
code was you cannot show emotion.
I never once saw my mother andfather hug or kiss.
I never heard them argue,Unless it was about me.

(24:18):
My dad never, ever, told methat he loved me and I'm not
boohooing, I am not saying, oh,poor me.
Dad never told me he loved me.
I knew he loved me.
He didn't have to tell me, butI used to tell him all the time,

(24:39):
just to bust his balls.
I would tell him hey, dad, youknow I love you, right, and he'd
be like yeah, I know, it's thescore of the game.
You know they, they couldn'tshow emotion.
It was crazy.
They had to bottle the shit up,and you know why?
Because the shit that they sawduring that depression, during

(25:04):
that war, the shit that they saw.
They had to learn to tuck thatemotion away and come home and
just not let anybody know thehorrors that they saw, the
horrors that they did.
And so they battled it up andbecame like robots and they were

(25:30):
all like that.
I swear I don't know anybody myage whose father ever showed
any frigging emotion.
I never saw my dad cry.
He buried a daughter, my sister, not a tear.
I took him on a thing called thehonor flight, where older

(25:55):
veterans of foreign wars wouldbe flown in through this
charitable organization intoWashington.
And these are all the guys thelast remaining World War II
people, the Korean guys and theVietnam guys and they would fly
them in and they got treatedlike heroes.

(26:18):
And they were, and they gotexecutive service from the
beginning to the end.
We're walking through theairport, we land in DC.
We're walking through theairport and every one of those
people at the gate as we'rewalking through, all the guys
were in wheelchairs and theirsons were pushing them.

(26:39):
They would stop whatever theywere doing, boarding a flight
and they would say Ladies andgentlemen, you're about to see
American heroes, these are theveterans of foreign wars passing
gate number 42 right now andeverybody would clap and
everybody would be like oh,thank you for your service.

(27:01):
And these dudes, these stonecold, emotionless dudes, would
just stare straight ahead andnot say a word.
My dad looked up to me.
They're clapping for him and mydad says I gotta take a piss.
I'm like, dad, do you seewhat's happening?

(27:24):
You're a hero.
He's like I really gotta peeand I don't get it.
Is he putting this out?
Is he fake?
Did he just learn how to turnhis shit off his emotions, I
don't know.

(27:47):
Anyway, to continue this story,I don't know if you've ever been
to the mall in Washington DCwhere Lincoln's memorial and
Washington's monument is.
They have all these tributes tothe several wars that America's

(28:08):
been in.
You're familiar with Vietnam,the wall where all the names are
.
They have a huge one for WorldWar II, civil War, every war
we've been in.
We've been in a lot of wars,man.
But I want to tell you something.
You go up to that Korean WarMemorial and it is scary as shit

(28:33):
.
It's a bunch of guys, bronzeguys.
They're standing about 7, 8feet tall and they're dressed in
military I guess you'd call itrain gear and they're walking
through a rice paddy and theyall got guns.
And I don't know a lot aboutart, but I'll tell you what.

(28:55):
Whoever the guy that sculptedthis stuff was man it was.
I'm there on a sunny day, yetsomehow this sculptor made me
know that it was night time whenthese guys are walking through
this rice paddy, and he made merealize that by the looks on

(29:15):
their faces, these statue guys,that they were terrified, they
were in danger, they were openfodder for whatever was hiding
behind the next rock.
And I'm looking at these dudesand I'm looking at my dad and

(29:36):
I'm like Dad, what the fuck man?
What were you thinking?
Why did you do that?
And he's got nothing to say,just keeps walking.
It was like he didn't even seeit.
Now is he putting it on?

(29:58):
Is he crying inside and justbeing brave?
No, he just buried it.
He didn't care.
So here's the weird thing we'rethere at this memorial, the
Korean War Memorial, and a tourbus pulls up with a bunch of

(30:23):
South Korean tourists who arepretty much old ladies, as old
as the guys, the American guysin the tour.
They're the same age.
So the guys that fought, theAmerican guys that fought for
Korea, are running into a tourbus of people who they saved.

(30:50):
And when they realized who eachother was, when they went
through the interpreters andsaid this is who these guys are,
this is who these women are,and the Korean women just went
berserk, not berserk.
They became so emotional.

(31:10):
They're running up to theseguys, they want pictures,
they're hugging them, they'rethanking them, they're crying.
They're.
I don't know what they'resaying because I don't speak
Korean, but I'm pretty surethey're saying thank God I'm not
part of North Korea.
And it's probably because ofwhat you guys did.
And you know what my dad andevery one of those stone-cold

(31:32):
motherfuckers did not crack asmile, did not shake a hand, did
not.
They just didn't have anyemotion at all.
Now, when I rose, raised mykids, I made a vow that I am not

(31:56):
going to be like that.
They're going to see me hug mywife.
They're going to see me kiss.
I'm going to tell them I lovethem all the time.
I want them to see me cry whenmy dog dies, or you know, I want
to show out.
I just don't want them to thinkthat I'm a robot.
I don't want to miss out on.

(32:22):
What my dad missed out on is,you know, sharing these
conversations and theseemotional stories of his past.
And now it's kind of out ofcontrol.
You know, every time I see mykids, you know they're hugging

(32:44):
me and kissing me and telling meyou know it's like all right.
You know I still got a touch ofmy dad in me.
You know it's like all right.
You know I still got a touch ofmy dad in me.
But that day in Washington DCwas a real eye-opener.
And it wasn't just him, it wasevery one of them Stone cold,

(33:17):
emotionless.
My dad taught me a lot of otherstuff, not just to show no
emotion.
My dad taught me to work.
To get what you want, you work.
I remember we needed arefrigerator.
A refrigerator broke and my dadwas like, all right, we're

(33:39):
going to get a new refrigerator.
And we're like, well, how arewe going to do that?
And he's like I'm going to geta second job and we're going to
save every penny until we canafford this refrigerator.
And damn it, he did it.
And then he kept the second job.

(34:00):
My dad had so many jobs I swearto God he would work, he would
do anything to make a living.
He worked at the steel plantpredominantly, but there was a
lot of strikes and there was alot of layoffs and things like
that.
So he sold.
He was at Sears, he soldappliances.
He was a this is no shit.

(34:21):
He was a door to door biblesalesman and he would knock on
doors and try and sell peopleBibles.
And I said, dad, come on, thisis crazy.
I said, did you ever sell aBible?
He said no, never.
He said until I learned the onething when they told me no, I

(34:42):
held the Bible up and I wouldsay don't tell me no.
Tell him no.
And I sold the first Bible andthen, after that, he quit.
He said I couldn't take it, butmy dad would do anything to
make a living and he taught meabout hard work, and it's a good
thing, man.
My dad taught me how to treatwomen.

(35:05):
He taught me chivalry, and Idon't know if it's gone or you
know, women have become sostrong and so independent that

(35:26):
maybe chivalry is anold-fashioned idea that is
antiquated now.
But you know what?
I'm still going to give up myseat.
I'm still going to help youcarry your groceries.
If you're a lady, I'm going tohold the door for you, and I

(35:47):
don't think that could in anyway be a bad thing.
I don't see how it could be,and any woman that I ever do
that for is never offended.
They don't always take me up onit.
You know, can I have, you knowplease?
I say please.
You know I got a bad back.
You can sit down, and they mayor may not sit down, but I don't

(36:13):
think there's anything wrongwith treating a woman good and
I'm not saying that this newgeneration treats them bad.
But really, man, sometimes Isee like guys and a woman
walking down the street and thewoman's got all the groceries
and the guy's pushing the babycarriage.

(36:34):
And I don't want to sound oldfashioned, but that just don't
make sense to me.
I'm a boomer.
I was raised by the greatestgeneration.
You respect women.
You're big, you're strong, youprovide, you protect big.
You're strong, you provide, youprotect.
And that's all right with me.
It's all right with me.

(37:10):
Our dads were rigid.
They were unflexible.
They believed what theybelieved and that was it.
They didn't change.
Went to his grave still makingfun of my nephews who were

(37:36):
overly tattooed.
Even though he had a tattoowhen he was you know, you
couldn't even see it anymore bythe time he was older.
But they'd walk in with theirtattoos the girls and boys, the
younger kids in the family.
He'd be like what a friggingtattoo.
Look at your hair, get a man'shaircut For crying out loud.

(37:58):
They couldn't be flexible and Ilearned from watching that to
be flexible and to not give ashit about how somebody dressed
or how they didn't conform andthey had conformity drilled into

(38:19):
their frigging brain becausethey were military people and
they were brought up in asociety that there was rules
about how you behaved and nobodyveered from those rules and it
was ingrained in them and in aweird way, my dad taught me, in

(38:45):
a roundabout way, flexibility bywatching his inflexibility.
By watching his inflexibility.

(39:06):
My dad and my mom were notracist and in the era that we
grew up in, racism was reallydifferent and more open.
Yeah, I grew up in North so itwasn't that that bad.
But you know there were still.
You know jokes and you knowblack dudes didn't get ahead and
didn't get all theopportunities and stuff like

(39:26):
that.
But thankfully my mom and dadwere never like that and I'm
sure a lot of you Baby Boomerguys your parents weren't like
that, thank God.
You know I'm Irish Catholic andmy first wife was Italian.

(39:52):
I brought her home, I went andmarried this girl.
My mother is like almost havinga heart attack.
My father is starting to comeup with all the racial slurs
that you could call an Italianguy at that point.
They had them for us too.
It was just a way he had tonsof Italian friends, but all they

(40:18):
wanted to know is is sheCatholic?
And they wound up loving herand I married.
I stayed married to her and hadchildren for for many years.
But the real test came.
Many years later, I gotdivorced from my first wife, who
is a wonderful woman, andraised our wonderful children,

(40:43):
and then I brought home a blackgirl and I'm like, man, dad,
what are you going to think?
How's it going to go?
How's it going to go?
Dad, you weren't racist, youforbid it and it was all around

(41:05):
us.
We lived in one neighborhood,they lived in another
neighborhood, and you justdidn't cross paths.
But my father was never openlyracist at all.
So I'm like, how's this gonnago?
And it was a little rocky, Igotta tell.

(41:30):
I got a guy in his late 80s whois, yeah, steelworker, war
veteran, and his son leaves onewoman and is going to marry a
young, pretty black girl, prettyblack girl.

(42:06):
And he, he had a little bit ofa hard time with it and I don't
blame him.
In fact I give him creditbecause, from how he was raised
of the time, he could have gonein any direction with this thing
and his initial direction waslike oh my God, oh my God, oh my
God.
And then they became friendsBecause she's a great woman and

(42:33):
he was able to really accept herand they had become friends,
secret friends.
It was so sweet.
They kidded each other and theyhad their private jokes and I

(42:55):
was just so proud of my dad andI was so proud of how they
raised me and I was so proud ofmy black new wife, who was not
going to take any shit.
You know, when we first met I'dbring her to the family and we

(43:18):
were going to take a picture ofher all out for dinner or
whatever.
She would just push up againsthim in the picture and put her
arm around him and she'd be likelook at, buddy, I'm here to
stay and I'm funny, I'm going tomake you laugh and I'm going to

(43:38):
hug and kiss you when they takethat picture.
And my dad wound up reallyloving it and two fine people
wound up having a sweetrelationship.
And she was there when my dadpassed in hospice and he knew

(44:13):
she was there and she said all Icould do is give him water and
a sponge.
And she walked up and he couldonly open one eye and she said I
bet you wish you had the goodstuff, the stuff that they would
sneak off and drink.

(44:34):
And somehow he managed a littlegrunt, a little smile, and so
they were tough, but they camearound, they came around.
So they were tough, but theycame around.
They came around and BabyBoomers, the sons of these

(45:03):
warriors, the sons of the menthat built America with their
hands, with their steel, ourbridges, our automobiles, our
skyscrapers.
They were tough.
They were tough on us, but theyhad a lot to teach and I thank

(45:33):
God for that generation.
I thank God for my dad.
I know most of the peoplelistening, most of the guys
listening my age, have lost yourdad and I hope that your dad
was as good as my dad, as greatas my dad, and I want to say

(46:03):
happy Father's Day to you andhappy Father's Day to your dads.
Have a great Father's Day, guys.
Thank you.