On Back Story this week, the realities of urban and tunnel warfare through the eyes of Israeli soldiers battling Hamas in Gaza.
Backstory takes you to the frontline with me, Dana Lewis, as we navigate the harrowing complexities of a conflict that blurs the lines between military strategy and civilian safety. Our guests, including IDF reservists Kerin Sokolov and Matan Yaffe, alongside David Sherez from TIKUN 2024, share the moral quandaries faced by those in uniform and the resilience that holds Israeli society together even as it grapples with international scrutiny and a profound civilian toll.
And what's next for Israel and it's Palestinian neighbours? Israeli's can't agree on a path forward,. and that includes proposals for a 2 state solution.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (00:00):
So I think the thing is that you
need to go from building tobuilding, from tunnel to tunnel.
You need to do it in a verythorough way.
You have no other option.
Missiles, guns and alsohostages are all within the
(00:21):
civilians and there is no otherway to deal with it.
So the situation is impossible,but you have to do it.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (00:29):
I think it's definitely achievable
, but I think it won't beachieved very easily.
The fact that something can beachieved doesn't mean it can
achieve without very high amountof friction and without
different kinds of interventions.
So Army Force is definitely anecessity at this moment of time
(00:54):
because there is a live terrororganization doing terrible
things that we couldn't imagine.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (01:07):
I do have hope.
I see it very complicated and Iadmit that October 7th gives me
a big hit to my belly and a lotof scary thoughts.
But I still have Palestinianfriends that live here.
Like Matan said before, a lotof the pain that they feel is
also caused by Hamas, just likeus.
It's important to keep thatawareness of who the people are
(01:30):
and who our partners can be.
Dana Lewis (01:38):
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
As we speak, the war in Gazarages.
There were reports on theground of heavy fighting.
The Israeli units now seem lessorganized, more rag tag, but
still able to fire RPGs andanti-tank missiles at Israeli
soldiers in their tank units,which, in turn, are using
(01:59):
intelligence from captured Hamasfighters to search out more
tunnels and above ground firingpoints.
And always, the searchcontinues for Israeli hostages,
still reportedly 140 more orless held in inhuman conditions
Outside.
The world calls for a ceasefire, as Palestinian casualties are
(02:21):
more than 30,000 dead this week.
On Backstory, I speak to Israelisoldiers calling for unity in
Israel, believing that theircountry is facing an existential
struggle.
No doubt it is.
The Israeli army in Israel oftomorrow is a huge question mark
, to be defined by the currentconflict, which will continue
(02:43):
for months to come, despitecalls for it to stop.
Now I'm excited to bring youthese next three guests soldiers
in the Israeli Defense Forces,different backgrounds, different
views, but brought together incrisis with you know, I think
(03:04):
we're about to hear that theyhave somewhat mutual views of
where to go from here in Israel.
So David Sharaz is a foundingmember of TIKIN 2024, a
nonpartisan organization led byReservis intent on preserving
the spirit of cooperationbrought on by war.
That's what they say.
Perin Sokolov is a major in theIDF reserve and Matan Yaffe
(03:31):
also a reservist who just cameback from Gaza.
So can I, if you don't mind,start with you, david?
You were just in Gaza.
Can you tell me what kind ofwar you saw and you were
participated in on the ground?
I mean, what is really going onthere?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (03:48):
Yes , so I can share that the
situation is the mostchallenging situation I have
ever seen since.
The mix between army-likeorganization of Hamas, who
invested tons of millions ofdollars and energy and time to
build a and prepare within thecivilians to this kind of war of
(04:22):
violent conflict, creates asituation which is almost
impossible to deal with,requires to be both very
effective in the process ofsharp, while being very firm and
even aggressive when it'sneeded.
The situation started onOctober 7th with the most brutal
(04:44):
violent attack, a surpriseattack on the, with almost 1,500
victims that were brutallykilled, kidnapped, raped, and so
this is a situation that youcan't deal with.
Dana Lewis (05:18):
A positive outcome, I guess what I want to hear from
you, if you don't mind mejumping in a little bit, is
because there's a lot to talkabout, a lot of the images
shared around the world are ofcivilian casualties,
(05:38):
palestinians being herded fromthe north to the south in
refugee camps and Israel bombingfrom the sky, the aftermath of
horrendous destruction in thehomes where over 2 million
people lived, and there's notmuch left in a lot of places
right now, but on the ground.
I assume that the reason forall of this destruction is you
are being engaged by Hamasfighters who are popping up out
of these tunnels and arecarrying on a real fight there.
I mean, you've witnessed a realfight.
(06:18):
Amidst all of the things thatwe see in the images we see on
television around the world, canyou tell?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (06:26):
me about that.
So I think the thing is thatyou need to go from building to
building, from tunnel to tunnel.
You need to do it in a verythorough way.
You have no other option.
Missiles, gun and also hostagesare all within the civilians
(06:50):
and there is no other way todeal with it.
So the situation is impossible.
But you have to do it as asovereign country, in defending
our people, in making sure thatthese kinds of attacks would not
happen again, and this issomething that, eventually, you
have no other choice than justto be there on the ground, from
(07:13):
house to house.
That's the situation.
Dana Lewis (07:15):
Matan, let me ask you what you saw and do you
think that the goal, as statedby the Israeli cabinet, the war
cabinet, is achievable theelimination of Hamasda.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (07:30):
I think it's definitely achievable
, but I think it won't beachieved very easily and the
fact that something can beachieved doesn't mean it can
achieve without very high amountof friction and without
different kinds of interventions.
So Army Force is definitely anecessity at this moment of time
(07:55):
because there is a live terrororganization doing terrible
things that we couldn't imaginefive and a half months ago and,
despite the fact that we've seenthings before, this was a new
(08:16):
extreme.
So definitely the use of ArmyForce is a necessity at this
point of time and this shouldcome along together with many
things.
And I think that here theinternational community has a
big role in condemningunanimously what is being done
(08:38):
over there and understand thatat the moment, both the Israeli
citizens that are hurting andthe Palestinian citizens that
are hurting are both hurtingbecause of Hamas.
Hamas is doing horrific thingsboth to us and to the
Palestinians, that he uses themin the most cynical, disruptive
(09:04):
way as human shields and usingtheir homes and their schools
and their hospitals as bombshelters or places to hide
ammunition.
Dana Lewis (09:17):
Can you give me an example of what you saw on the
ground there that really painteda picture for you of what Hamas
is doing and how it's using thecivilian population?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (09:29):
Every second house in Gaza has crazy
amounts of ammunition and notall the people that lived on
those houses were actuallytrained to use these ammunition.
These were only hiding placesfor Hamas to hide their
ammunition within civilian homesand because they know and they
(09:53):
count on the fact that we willnever attack citizens, they used
this card in the most horrificway.
You go to their hospitals andyou see anti-tank missiles and
you see rifles and you seegrenades within treatment rooms,
within hospitals.
That's the reality.
Did you see that?
Of course, and they count onour morality to not do anything
(10:18):
about it.
And surely they were right.
We didn't do anything about itfor many, many years because we
don't want to hurt any unengagedcitizen.
But then, when they did thebrutal attack, raped women,
murdered babies, demolishedentire families they really let
(10:40):
us know choice but to actuallyenter and, for once, actually
killing everything up.
And that's what we're doing.
And in this sense, I think thatthe international support is
crucial in understanding thatthe world, the Western world,
(11:02):
the world of morality, cannotlet terror organization demolish
the lives of citizens,regardless if there is Israelis
or Palestinians.
We cannot let it happen.
Dana Lewis (11:14):
All right, I want to bring in Karen here and thank
you for being patient, karen, doyou?
I understand you're not on theground in Gaza, but you're in
the idea, if you're watchingwhat's happening.
Do you think that your leadersnow, once the moment of rage is
over, after October the 7th andthe horrendous things that were
done to Israelis by Hamas andthe Islamic jihad and others
(11:39):
when they entered Israel, oncewe get past that moment of rage
five months into this, do youthink that your government is on
this war cabinet is on theright track?
Do you think that what'shappening in Gaza ends somehow
to the benefit of Israel?
How does this end?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (12:00):
I have to say that I have full
trust and believe in the IDF andeverything that it's been doing
.
First of all, on the people.
After this three monthexperience of being in reserve
duties and meeting people whohave left their homes, their
houses, their lives, their jobsand put everything at stake,
(12:22):
there's nothing that gives youmore hope than to see how we all
come together to promise abetter future for tomorrow
morning.
In terms of our government, Ithink it's a complicated
situation.
The government and all ourleaders were on duty when
October 7th happened, so I feelthat most of my trust really has
(12:43):
to do with the people.
The people who are on this callitself that we didn't know each
other just a few weeks ago, andI think that that's what's very
special in the Jewish nationthe spirit of the people and
their ability to come togetherin order to make a true
difference in how Israel isgoing to be tomorrow morning and
that's a lot of what Tikkun2024 is trying to do bring that
spirit up also to our leadershipand also to our society in
(13:08):
general.
Dana Lewis (13:09):
I want to explore that a little bit and go ahead.
Sorry, David, I want to bringyou in here.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (13:14):
Well , I feel that we started with
the more like a war armyperspective, but actually what
connects us the three of us andall the group of Tikkun 2024,
already tens of thousands ofIsraelis is the fact that we see
that we are missing the kind ofleadership that can say the
(13:35):
truth.
We are missing the kind ofleadership that can bring us
into agreeing on the crucialthing that are destroying or
tearing the Israeli societyapart.
We're seeing the polarization,we're seeing the fighting, the
separation things that are thesocial media and the media in
(13:57):
general are kind of strivingfrom, and also the politicians,
and instead of getting toagreements about what should we
do, what is the strategy, how towork together, how to
collaborate even if we haveinternal conflicts.
The fact that we don't haveleadership that can take us
there is actually jeopardizingand harming the Israeli society
(14:23):
and our ability not only to winthe war and hold the Israeli and
the Jewish morality in it, butalso to be strong internally and
to deal with our internalchallenges.
And this is actually whatTikkun 2024 was created for.
Dana Lewis (14:42):
Right, okay, so that's and I don't want to
belittle what you've just saidin any way but I mean there's
this sort of kumbaya momentwhere let's come together, let's
unify, let's, you know, standbecause we're under existential
threat as a nation.
Put aside our differences, butin the end those differences are
(15:04):
very real.
They are very different visionsof things like is there, should
there be a two-state solution?
Should religious parties servein the army?
Should there be reoccupation ofGaza, and in a permanent way by
settlements?
There's a lot of things that,given even given a spirit of
(15:28):
unity, are not easily overcomeby correct yes.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (15:34):
When we say to be united, it doesn't
mean to agree on everything.
I think that what we see in thelast 30 years not only in
Israel, by the way.
I think it's a global challengeis that a politician and the
media is taking us to theextreme, to the polarity, and
(15:57):
keeping us arguing and fightingand hating each other based on
these things, instead of takingthem as two different approaches
and finding the way to get toan understanding and agreement
that will be better for everyoneeventually.
Dana Lewis (16:16):
Matan, you started to jump in there.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (16:19):
Yeah, so I think you asked about all
kinds of questions, and thereare different opinions about
each of these questions Withinthe people of Deku 2024, what we
are saying is that we need aban in general from now onward.
What we like in England or inthe United States, you have the
(16:43):
Democrats or the Republicans,you have the liberals or the
conservatives.
What we claim is that, due tothe reality of the Israeli state
, we must have a centralgovernment that is centered, not
right wing, not left wing, butunited in a sense.
Each of these subjects that youjust raised are difficult to
(17:07):
solve, but they are solvable,and what we need in order to
solve these subjects and manyothers that you didn't mention
is a government that is centeredand not needed to handle itself
, but needed to handle thestate's issues Isn't the problem
, and you guys can correct me,you live there but I mean, I've
(17:30):
covered the election process inIsrael and different coalition
governments.
Dana Lewis (17:35):
and isn't the process, inevitably, that there
are not two main dominatingparties, but in the end what
happens is nobody can form amajority government.
So Netanyahu, for instance andhe's not the first one to do it
and it's not the first time he'sdone it in the end he marries,
(17:57):
in this case, religious,ultra-right minority parties,
promising some pretty extremethings to them, but that enables
him to draw together thiscoalition and have power.
And isn't that the problem?
That consistently, politicalleaders who cannot form a
government then go to theextreme and the minority then
(18:21):
hijacks the majority throughthat political process.
Anybody can jump in there.
Karen, you want to try this one?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (18:29):
I see Matan, I'll let him go and
then I'll complete the thoughtsthere.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (18:34):
In many ways you're right.
The political structure inIsrael is fractured for the past
few years and that created aninternal chaos.
But this is the past and I'mmore interested in speaking
about the future and in thefuture from now on.
I think that the civicengagement of civilians within
(18:57):
the political life has went downvery, became very low in the
past decade and then in the lastyear became very high and kind
of shifted everything to theother side.
To add on to that, we hadOctober 7th and the catastrophe
and the cruelty of Hamasattacking civilians in Israel,
(19:19):
and that pushed many civiliansto understand that we don't have
the luxury anymore of not beingengaged.
Dana Lewis (19:28):
What's changed?
Karen?
You can jump in here too.
What's changed?
Netanyahu remains in power andthose parties that he formed an
alliance with very much haveout-weighted if I can use that
term political influence overthe majority.
The minority still has its orein the water and is still
(19:51):
steering the ship right now.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservi (19:54):
Again , I think I connect to what
Matan just brought up.
At the end of the day, thepolitical arrangement reflects
the civilians' desires and theway they see the future of our
nation.
And I think when you ask whatchanged October 7th and the past
three months or four monthsthat each of us had experienced
(20:14):
I mean just looking at thepeople that are on this computer
screen right now I live in theGusha Tzion block.
I'm considered what's called asettler, and David and Matan
live more in central Israel.
Prior to October 7th, I don'tthink the three of us were able
to imagine a way to find acommon discussion between us and
(20:36):
, being that we are the onesthat vote and we are the ones
that give power to ourgovernment also, I think a lot
of the civilian life itself alsogave power to this polarization
.
That happened After ourexperience in the reserve duty
and seeing that we could beshoulder to shoulder with people
who are 100% different than usin our views but understand that
there's something larger thanjust my personal sector, where I
(20:57):
come from, and that largerthing is the continuation of the
Israeli state, and all of usbeing able to be for this larger
mission showed us that there'sa different way, and what TQUN
2024 is trying to do is havethat voice and that awareness
that, first of all, we asreserves and the civilians have
have that effect the politicalscene.
(21:18):
We're not the only country inthe world that has a parliament
way of government.
The question is what we ascivilians, what we want from our
politicians and what we pushthem for, and that's why we're
pushing to our leadership, butalso letting this unique voice
that we were able to discoverthrough our reserve duty have
(21:41):
more of a say in power in howthings are run here in Israel.
Dana Lewis (21:44):
Okay, so there's some triumph in that standing
shoulder to shoulder and comingtogether, but, david, isn't
there a lot of disappointment inthat too?
Because you emerged from Gazaand to some degree, were
disappointed that there wasstill just the division and, if
anything, some of the fracturesthat had already existed before
(22:05):
the attack on October the 7thhave even widened and are still
there.
David Sherez/IDF Reservi (22:10):
That's correct.
There is a huge disappointmentfrom the lack of leadership, and
the first thing that we aredemanding from our leaders is to
take responsibility.
We haven't seen the Israelileadership.
We haven't seen the primeminister and the government
saying we are sorry, this is ourresponsibility.
(22:31):
We did something wrong.
We need to take thisresponsibility and we are only
five and a half months sinceOctober 7th.
They had also time to dosomething, to wake up, to change
something in the way they lead,and they haven't.
They're still fighting, they'restill separating, they're still
(22:54):
.
They didn't wake up to the sizeof this event, this historical
event.
The government is not yet doingwhat is required in this
situation.
Dana Lewis (23:07):
So the first thing is to take responsibility
Selfishly protecting politicalposition.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (23:14):
I think that eventually, this is
the motivation or the incentivesin our structure and in the
media and also the people inpower.
The incentive is not to takeresponsibility, is not to pay
the price and being the leadersthat are needed now.
And, by the way, I think thisis not only a personal issue yes
(23:38):
, there is a personal issue, butit's also a structural issue,
and this is what our generationis asking for.
We want to see a dramaticchange, but the first thing we
are reservists, we are notpoliticians.
What we're asking is a verysimple thing we're asking to
take responsibility.
We are asking to work towardsan agreed common goal with an
(24:02):
agreed strategy, in atransparent way, to focus on
what's important and not tofocus on the things that are not
relevant.
And what is not relevant now issectorial and personal
interests, and this is thechange we want to see now.
Dana Lewis (24:18):
Does Netanyahu have to go?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (24:22):
I believe that Netanyahu needs to
go, and also many others fromthe defense forces and many
people that were involved.
But this is not ourresponsibility.
There's going to be an officialcommittee that will investigate
.
I believe that some of thepeople need to take
responsibility first and resign.
I think that what we need tolead for us as a group in Tikkun
(24:46):
, is to ask for a new agreement,a new deal to regain trust
between the people and betweenthe reservists and the
government itself and theparliament in general.
They failed.
They need to give the mandateback to the people and we need
to decide, and many of them needto go back home and resign, and
(25:07):
many of us of our generation ofnew people new blood needs to
go into this.
Dana Lewis (25:13):
How do you get them to go If you support Netanyahu
in leaving?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (25:20):
I think that it's not a personal
question.
I think we've presented aroadmap for what we, as
reservists, will representothers, what we expect that will
happen.
One is to take responsibility.
Two is immediately to broadenthe government to become as wide
as possible and manage this war.
(25:43):
In my point of view, this is notjust a local war.
This is a war of the moralworld against a terror
organization and in that sense,I think that even you, dana, and
us, we have an alliance.
We need to protect citizens andwe need to make sure that the
Western world can prevail anddefend its values.
(26:07):
Then we want an election datefor sometime in 2024, after
we'll finish to, we will finisheliminating the immediate
threats that we have on theborders at the moment.
And then we want a declarationof the biggest parties that they
will sit in a united governmentalso after the next election.
(26:29):
This, on our end, will presentthe to overcome its challenges.
The identity of the primeminister is irrelevant on my
from my point of view, it'sirrelevant as long as the
biggest parties will decide tosit together, whether they are
(26:50):
center, little to the right orlittle to the left, and will
construct the government andonly then all the rest, the
other parties from the far rightor far left, will be able to
decide whether they believe andagree in the guidelines of this
government or they don't, andthen they'll sit out.
That will allow the state ofIsrael the stability it needs so
(27:14):
desperately in order to rebuildthe security of our borders,
rebuild the safety of ourcitizens, rebuild the economy
here and moving forward towardsa future, and continue being the
only democracy in the MiddleEast that is functioning and has
an alliance with the Westernworld.
Dana Lewis (27:36):
I guess you know, in my view, from covering Israel
for a long time and the WestBank and Gaza is that.
And, karen, maybe I can ask you, because you live in the West
Bank, you live in the GushetSeon, you're a settlement.
Maybe later that land, in apeace process, could be annexed
(27:57):
and some land exchanged withPalestinians.
But in the short term, isn'tthis about to get worse, that if
you're unable to really defeatHamas in Gaza which a lot of
people think is impossible thatit will remain in place, rather
than you know?
We talk about Israeliextremists and Israeli moderates
(28:17):
, but in the West Bank you have,you know, a lot of Palestinian
moderates who I've met andpeople with real visions of
peace for the future.
Isn't the problem now thatHamas just not dominating Gaza,
will soon dominate the West Bankas well and this will just get
more dangerous, not less?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (28:36):
I feel like the answer is a part
of your question.
I could say living here in theWest Bank and that's the own
block I personally have beenvery, very much involved in for
the past few years for closeconversations, talks, meetings
with Palestinian partners here,which probably doesn't fall
(28:56):
proper in like the stigma thatI'm supposed to hold, and I'm
not alone, I'm not likesomething that stands out and
very different from where I live, and maybe that's like the
difference of what we see onnews and media and how things
are portrayed to how they are inthe everyday life and I do have
hope.
I see it very, very complicatedand I admit that October 7th
(29:17):
gave me a big hit to my bellyand a lot of scary thoughts, but
I still have Palestinianfriends that live here.
Like Matan said before, a lotof the pain that they feel is
also caused by Hamas, just likeus, and it's important to keep
that awareness of who the peopleare and who our partners can be
and what happens on the higherlevel or through media.
Dana Lewis (29:41):
Do you support a two-state solution?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (29:44):
I can't say exactly what I think
the solution is and I don't knowif there's a lot of also
different options out theretoday.
There's the confederation.
There's different options thatare out there.
I can say that I have dedicatedmy life and will continue
dedicating my life to have peacein the Middle Eastern area and
specifically in Israel.
(30:04):
I truly believe that I want toraise my children in a happy,
peaceful place and I trulybelieve that I want my
Palestinian partners and friendsto also have that stability.
For me to say now what theproper political solution is, I
feel like that would be, I don'tknow, not proper to really my
(30:25):
full understanding of what theoutcomes of each of these can be
.
Dana Lewis (30:29):
You're not the only one that doesn't have a big
picture of clarity about how dowe go forward now in Israel,
david.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (30:37):
I want to add something to that.
Really, what is clear to me,and, I think, to all Israelis,
is that, first thing, we need tohave security at our borders.
We need to make sure that Gazahas no weapons at all.
We need to make sure that Hamasis not creating a terror state
(31:00):
and taking all the resources ofthe Palestinians in Gaza towards
creating terror on Israel.
This is first thing that weneed to remember.
That is, that's a month.
Dana Lewis (31:13):
No weapons.
You just said no weapons at all, right.
And you?
I don't need to tell you you'vebeen there.
That is a monstrous mountain toclimb.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (31:24):
Yeah , that's true, that's true, and
I think that October 7th made itvery clear that we have no
other choice and we are actuallydoing it.
We are paying the price ofbeing sovereign and making sure
that this won't happen again,and I think this is first
(31:45):
priority for us as Israelis.
What we can do is take care ofour position, is make sure that
we are doing the best that wecan, and I hope that also our
neighbors, the Palestinians,will do the same about
themselves and about theirleadership, and maybe one day we
will see a better future.
(32:06):
I hope, and I will do my bestwork towards that future, but
what I can take responsibilityon is myself, what I am doing,
what are the values that areleading me and how I make sure
that our country is safe and ourpeople are protected.
Dana Lewis (32:24):
This is first thing and first priority and a lot of
people think you know, goingback to Yitzhak Rabin and beyond
that a two state solution isthe answer.
And it rolls off people'stongues now, people with very
little historic knowledge of theconflict, of the Oslo Accords,
of the joint patrols to Gaza andthe West Bank, the withdrawal
(32:48):
of settlements, the attempts toarm a Palestinian police who
would deal with the extremists,intelligence sharing.
I mean there has been so muchthat has taken place.
So when the diplomats say twostate solution, give them a
state Palestinian homeland,let's get on with it.
(33:08):
I think most Israelis would saywell, just a minute, I was just
attacked from an area calledGaza which was largely
independent.
I mean, we surrounded theborder of it, but it was largely
independent.
Now you want me to give, aftermy citizens have been killed and
(33:28):
raped and kidnapped.
You want me to give a largerarea closer to my border, to the
same Palestinians with what Iwould guarantee First coup.
There is a question in that andthat would be what do?
Most Israelis hold a verydifferent view of a two-state
solution.
(33:48):
Now is probably the mostnervous, unsettling time for
Israelis to talk about atwo-state solution, while
internationally that's beingpushed by so many different
leaders, including PresidentBiden and onward Matan.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (34:05):
Yeah, I think that we need to
recognize reality.
Eventually, the world hashelped.
We withdraw from Gazacompletely.
They had full sovereignty overGaza.
There were no Israeli forcesthere since 2006, 2007.
We withdraw completely and weallow them to be completely
(34:26):
independent.
They got lots of help,financial help, both from the
Arab world and from the UnitedNations, and established many
things and eventually, now whenwe are there physically, we see
that the vast majority of theirmoney did not go to build an
(34:47):
excellent educational system,nor health system, nor economy,
nor whatever.
We went to build terror tunnels, to hold women and children
underneath it, to bringterrorists to attack innocent
civilians and to grenades,rockets, rifles, etc.
(35:08):
This is the reality that needsto be acknowledged.
This is a fact, it's not aninterpretation.
This is the fact Now, from hereonward.
Of course, even this cannot beforever like that, but we must
get back to T-Zero.
We must demolish FAMAS, notjust locally, but globally.
(35:29):
Famas today is present also inEurope and in many other places,
and here again I reach out toyou as a world leader, alongside
many others.
We need to be united againstthe terror organization,
regardless of their names.
We need to shut down their bankaccount.
We need to eliminate theirability to harm innocent people
(35:50):
in Israel, in Europe, in theUnited States or anywhere on the
globe.
That is a global goal that wemust work together in order to
achieve.
Afterwards, we, of course, needto make sure, and we are making
sure.
I can tell you that mepersonally, alongside many other
soldiers who are there with me,risked our lives on a daily
(36:13):
routine just to spare theinnocent people's lives.
Now, it's very difficult whenyou have a terrorist hiding.
Dana Lewis (36:22):
There are a lot of people internationally that see
the pictures coming out of Gazathat doubt that.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (36:26):
I understand that and it's very
sad, and I think that part ofthe media role is to acknowledge
the complexity of having aterrorist organization hiding
among civilians, not by mistake,it's by design, that's
intentional.
And when they do that and theyfire at us from within a crowd
(36:50):
and it's not something that Iheard, it's something that I
experienced, that I saw with myown eyes and to deal with this
kind of reality it's very, verydifficult, and anyone who tried
to make it superficial or binary, as if there are good and bad
here, is wrong in the way hepresents the good and the bad.
(37:10):
There is a bad in this storyand the bad is Hamas' full stop.
It's bad for Palestinians, it'sbad for Israelis, it's bad for
the Western world, alongsidewith ISIS, alongside with
Al-Qaeda.
It's exactly the same.
If you ask any British soldieror American soldier that was in
(37:31):
Afghanistan how the the, thescenic use of ISIS or Al-Qaeda
within the local civilians.
It's catastrophe, it's crazy.
They want Look.
Their goal is for us to hurt asmany unidentified, unengage
people as possible.
It's literally one of theirgoals and they're trying to do
so.
Dana Lewis (37:50):
they're winning.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservi (37:51):
They're winning on that front?
I don't know At the moment, noone is winning.
I think that as long as we'renot, all of us, united within
this global goal of condemningevilness and condemning terror
organization and think thatmaybe they have a point, they
don't.
They are evil people Full stop.
(38:12):
We want to demolish our way oflife, our modern Western way of
life, who puts life and freedomat first place.
That's what we need toacknowledge.
Dana Lewis (38:23):
Well, if their goal is civilian as many civilian
casualties as possible, they'recertainly winning something
there and galvanizing somesupport for them, because there
isn't any other alternativeright now for Palestinians that
they see at least in Gaza.
Maybe they see somethingdifferent in the West Bank.
But how do we move this forward?
I mean, david, as you wantTikan to kind of be the voice of
(38:47):
the mainstream, not hijacked byleft or right or extremists.
You don't want to become apolitical movement.
So I'm just not sure how do youaffect political change where
the mainstream Israelis andthere are a lot of secular
Israelis not in religiousparties who might support
(39:12):
different solutions withPalestinians how do you push
them?
I mean, the politicians are notgoing to lead you there, it
looks like.
How are you going to push themto the direction you want to go?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (39:22):
So I want to share a story.
On October 7, the people ofIsrael stood up to the size of
the historical event.
People went from their homes toprotect people until the army
and the police came.
People rescued a lot of peoplefrom the Nova massacre, the
(39:47):
music festival and since October7, the Israeli people,
regardless of their origin, theycould be bedwurled, they could
be religious or secular, theycould be right or left wing,
they came, they helped.
Every place where thegovernment was not effective,
(40:11):
was not working, the people came.
Matan and I, we've raised thefund to support all the people
who were evacuated from the Gazaarea, the Israelis that were
evacuated there, to support themuntil the government will start
reacting Okay.
(40:33):
And so many beautiful thingshappen, so many initiatives from
the people, and I think thereis another moment now where the
people need to take back themandate.
The people need to tell ourleaders what we are expecting
from them, and we are doingexactly that.
We are saying it on the media,we are telling it to our
(40:57):
politicians and we are creatingthe critical mass of people that
are demanding responsibility.
Unity.
This is what we are asking for,and tikkun tikkun in Hebrew
comes from the.
It's a very spiritual andsacred word.
Dana Lewis (41:17):
Means to heal.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (41:19):
It means to heal, it means to
correct, it means to changesomething that is broken.
So, if we see a system, if wesee a world now that is totally
broken, we are coming to fix it.
We are coming to create theenergetical, the consciousness,
(41:39):
the powerful change that thepeople can bring in order to
change the direction.
We are at the crossroad.
One direction can lead to aterrible future of fighting and
separation and hate and fake, aswe see all over the world, and
another path can lead us to abetter future of transparency,
(42:05):
of working together incollaboration, of deep listening
to the other, to his or herneeds, to deep democracy, real
democracy.
I think these are the thingsthat we are fighting for today.
There is a future where theconflicts, the left and the
right, can fight and kill eachother, but they can also lead to
(42:30):
a cohesion, to a sympathy thatwill bring better solutions.
This is what we need thepolarities for to bring better
solutions, and this is what weare demanding today.
Dana Lewis (42:41):
If there was one message that you gave to Benny
Gantt when you met with him,what was the headline?
What did you try to deliver tohim?
And he is now supposedly in acoalition government with
Netanyahu I mean a war cabinetand there he is meeting in
Washington with President Biden,while Netanyahu doesn't want to
(43:05):
meet Biden.
On more moderate terms of whatthe future looks like in Gaza, I
mean just the political theaterthis week shows the great
divisions and so-calleddifferent Israeli political
groups coming together.
If anything, they are becomingmore separate.
So what did you tell him?
(43:26):
What message did you deliver toBenny Gantt?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (43:31):
We talked about.
You know we are very focused inwhat we do.
We are Zionist, we are patriots, we believe that Israel is the
one and only state for theJewish people and we need to
preserve it, and by workingtogether, we can create the
synergy needed in order topreserve it and better for all
(43:54):
the nations around us.
Again, this is the onlydemocracy in the Middle East.
It's not very easy to be inthis rough neighborhood with all
the violence that is going onhere in Lebanon, in Syria and
all around us.
As I'm sure you know, it's not.
It's a pretty toughneighborhood.
It's a tough neighborhood andwe see the way, the hypocrisy.
(44:17):
We see UNR people who wereemployed by UNR, an organization
, belong to the UN.
We actually participated andthis is documented in raping
women, in murder babies.
This is the reality that welive in.
So our first and foremostpriority is to preserve this
only democracy that is part ofthe alliance with the Western
(44:40):
world, in order to have here apeaceful way of life.
Dana Lewis (44:44):
What did you tell Benny Gantt?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (44:46):
So we said we need to work together
left and right, conservativesand liberals in order to make
sure that we can deliver that tothe nation of Israel and to the
world itself.
Dana Lewis (44:56):
Did you hear anything?
David, you were in that meetingtoo.
Did you hear anything from himthat made you think he got it?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (45:05):
Yes , I felt he agreed and accepted
that this kind of new deal thatwe are offering the Israeli
society and the politicians is agood plan for Israel to make
sure that, instead of fightinginternally, we will be united in
fighting our enemies and makingit to the best way we can do it
(45:29):
, and I think that he sharedwith us the political challenges
of making it happen, whileunderstanding that this is the
right thing and this is a goodthing that we need to strive for
.
So I believe that he's workingand trying to do the best that
he can to get there, and we seealso the limitation of the
(45:51):
politicians, their interests,their challenges, the political
map of Israel, and this is whywe are here to make sure that
our voice will be heard and thisis what will happen eventually.
Dana Lewis (46:05):
Here and last word to you.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservis (46:09):
Yeah , I grew up in the US, my whole
childhood was there.
I made a Le'ai move to Israelwhen I was 18.
And as I'm in this conversation, I suddenly realized something
Growing up in America politics,governments, my ability to
influence as a civilian wassomething that was very I don't
know, it was very far, it wasn'timmediate, and I think that's
(46:33):
something culturally that needsto be understood what it means,
what the life in Israel is.
Even your questions aboutPalestinians, two state
solutions who are enemies, arehow close Everything here is
intertwined.
So when you see I don't knowthese three people that didn't
know each other a month ago,when we're I don't know all in
our 30s, 40s, what kind ofinfluence can we have?
(46:55):
I think almost every one ofthem.
I and again, I only moved toIsrael when I was 18.
And I know at least threepeople who sit today in the
parliament.
Being fairly new here, Ialready have those connections
and I think that's culturallysomething that needs to be
understood about what it meansto live, to live in Israel.
When you ask what our influenceis, when you're a civilian in
(47:16):
Israel that cares and I thinkthat's something that's very
special about living in Israelthere's no one that doesn't care
.
Everyone is very, verypassionate about what this
country is and does everythingthey can to influence it.
Your voice and your influencehas almost an immediate effect.
So the power that Tikkun 2024has has has brought together in
(47:38):
this past, in this past month.
It's not just like I don't knowsome, some in some far off
state, this group of people whocame together, it's.
It's in the talk of almostevery news channel, every um
Shabbat table that I'm at umfrom far places, because it's a
very close knit culture.
And also, when you speak aboutour relationship with
(47:59):
Palestinians and a two statesolution and where our enemies
are, I, I I mean, I'm looking atmy window and I have
Palestinian neighbors and Ithink that's something that's
important to understand our, ourlife and the complexity of what
Matan said before good and eviland where everything,
everything is intertwined.
And that close knitness alsomakes it very complex to
understand but also allows us tohave huge influence on how
(48:23):
tomorrow morning is going toseem.
So when we say let's influencethe leadership, it's us.
It's us taking responsibility,it's us speaking up, it's us
tomorrow morning speaking topoliticians, but also ourselves
deciding who's who's going to bein politics tomorrow.
I have friends that are inpolitics today.
It's I mean, it's not somethingthat I experienced with my with
my friends that I grew up inhigh school in America.
(48:44):
It's really something that'svery far off.
So I think that's one of thebeauties that we have here in
Israel.
Um, and and there I see a lotof a lot of hope, and not just
what the three of us are saying,but the thousands of people who
have already joined us in thiscall for unity.
Um and and I'm confident thatit will have its effects up and
(49:04):
down and all around on whatIsraeli society needs today
extremely confident.
Dana Lewis (49:09):
Yeah, well said, and I guess the the enemy are the
extremists who hijack the, theconversation um and more, and
the enemy is the al-Kamas andthe terrorist who kill us.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (49:26):
I want to acknowledge the fact
that 20% of Israeli citizens areMuslim Arabs, and they were
slaughtered as well.
They were kidnapped as well.
The enemy is one and its nameis Hamas.
Among us, there is a disputeand we are we are citizens
working towards solving thisdispute, but we must this thing
(49:49):
where the camp matters, languagematters, enemy are terrorists.
Dana Lewis (49:57):
Yeah, and the enemy can be disillusionment with the
process, because if you have anew found hope, as a lot of
Israelis did in the nineties, umwith with peace accords, they
became very quicklydisillusioned when bombs started
going off in cafes and on busesand Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and
(50:18):
so even even well-intentionedum, it's it's very, very complex
situation.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (50:23):
We will continue to fight for peace
because eventually, any, anyarmy manoeuvre is only in the
service of the reaching out forpeace, and Israel has done it
again and again and throughoutyears.
We had many successes, egyptincluded, jordan included, and
eventually we will get there.
But we need to understand that.
(50:45):
You know, as you said, we livein a very rough neighborhood.
Our head is always reached outfor our neighbors and we'll
continue to do so.
And I think that when you speakand I worked for 10 years with
the Bedouins in the negative,who are all Muslims and when you
ask them about theiridentification with the state of
(51:05):
Israel, they are with uscompletely.
When you would ask them afterthe October 7th about Hamas,
they would say it's a disgracefor their religion, it's a
disgrace for humanity, it's adisgrace for the Arab nations,
it's a disgraceful stock andthat's what we need to be clear
about it.
There's no slapstick to you.
Dana Lewis (51:26):
All right, I think we'll have to leave it there and
I really do appreciate talkingto David Cheriz, karen Sokolov
and Matan Yaffe.
Thank you so much, guys.
I appreciate it and good luck.
Thank you All full-time experts,and that's our backstory this
week on Israel and the war inGaza.
I think the hope and beliefthat things will get better by
(51:47):
these army reservists is ashining light, but Israel's
future won't be defined by aspirit of unity, but rather real
decisions that will have to betaken in soon about how it lives
with its Palestinian neighborsand whether decisions will be
made sensibly taken bypeace-seeking mainstream
(52:09):
majorities on both sides or, asit has seen many times in the
past, extremist, hijackeddecision-making.
Hamas has played a major rolein fomenting hate and conflict,
but Israel also has itsfar-right extremist elements
that bear responsibility for thecurrent conflict too.
I'm Dana Lewis.
(52:29):
Thanks for listening toBackstory and I'll talk to you
again soon.
©.
(54:31):
Bf-watch TV 2021 you.
So I think the thing is that you
need to go from building tobuilding, from tunnel to tunnel.
You need to do it in a verythorough way.
You have no other option.
Missiles, guns and alsohostages are all within the
(00:21):
civilians and there is no otherway to deal with it.
So the situation is impossible,but you have to do it.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (00:29):
I think it's definitely achievable
, but I think it won't beachieved very easily.
The fact that something can beachieved doesn't mean it can
achieve without very high amountof friction and without
different kinds of interventions.
So Army Force is definitely anecessity at this moment of time
(00:54):
because there is a live terrororganization doing terrible
things that we couldn't imagine.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (01:07):
I do have hope.
I see it very complicated and Iadmit that October 7th gives me
a big hit to my belly and a lotof scary thoughts.
But I still have Palestinianfriends that live here.
Like Matan said before, a lotof the pain that they feel is
also caused by Hamas, just likeus.
It's important to keep thatawareness of who the people are
(01:30):
and who our partners can be.
Dana Lewis (01:38):
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
As we speak, the war in Gazarages.
There were reports on theground of heavy fighting.
The Israeli units now seem lessorganized, more rag tag, but
still able to fire RPGs andanti-tank missiles at Israeli
soldiers in their tank units,which, in turn, are using
(01:59):
intelligence from captured Hamasfighters to search out more
tunnels and above ground firingpoints.
And always, the searchcontinues for Israeli hostages,
still reportedly 140 more orless held in inhuman conditions
Outside.
The world calls for a ceasefire, as Palestinian casualties are
(02:21):
more than 30,000 dead this week.
On Backstory, I speak to Israelisoldiers calling for unity in
Israel, believing that theircountry is facing an existential
struggle.
No doubt it is.
The Israeli army in Israel oftomorrow is a huge question mark
, to be defined by the currentconflict, which will continue
(02:43):
for months to come, despitecalls for it to stop.
Now I'm excited to bring youthese next three guests soldiers
in the Israeli Defense Forces,different backgrounds, different
views, but brought together incrisis with you know, I think
(03:04):
we're about to hear that theyhave somewhat mutual views of
where to go from here in Israel.
So David Sharaz is a foundingmember of TIKIN 2024, a
nonpartisan organization led byReservis intent on preserving
the spirit of cooperationbrought on by war.
That's what they say.
Perin Sokolov is a major in theIDF reserve and Matan Yaffe
(03:31):
also a reservist who just cameback from Gaza.
So can I, if you don't mind,start with you, david?
You were just in Gaza.
Can you tell me what kind ofwar you saw and you were
participated in on the ground?
I mean, what is really going onthere?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (03:48):
Yes , so I can share that the
situation is the mostchallenging situation I have
ever seen since.
The mix between army-likeorganization of Hamas, who
invested tons of millions ofdollars and energy and time to
build a and prepare within thecivilians to this kind of war of
(04:22):
violent conflict, creates asituation which is almost
impossible to deal with,requires to be both very
effective in the process ofsharp, while being very firm and
even aggressive when it'sneeded.
The situation started onOctober 7th with the most brutal
(04:44):
violent attack, a surpriseattack on the, with almost 1,500
victims that were brutallykilled, kidnapped, raped, and so
this is a situation that youcan't deal with.
Dana Lewis (05:18):
A positive outcome, I guess what I want to hear from
you, if you don't mind mejumping in a little bit, is
because there's a lot to talkabout, a lot of the images
shared around the world are ofcivilian casualties,
(05:38):
palestinians being herded fromthe north to the south in
refugee camps and Israel bombingfrom the sky, the aftermath of
horrendous destruction in thehomes where over 2 million
people lived, and there's notmuch left in a lot of places
right now, but on the ground.
I assume that the reason forall of this destruction is you
are being engaged by Hamasfighters who are popping up out
of these tunnels and arecarrying on a real fight there.
I mean, you've witnessed a realfight.
(06:18):
Amidst all of the things thatwe see in the images we see on
television around the world, canyou tell?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (06:26):
me about that.
So I think the thing is thatyou need to go from building to
building, from tunnel to tunnel.
You need to do it in a verythorough way.
You have no other option.
Missiles, gun and also hostagesare all within the civilians
(06:50):
and there is no other way todeal with it.
So the situation is impossible.
But you have to do it as asovereign country, in defending
our people, in making sure thatthese kinds of attacks would not
happen again, and this issomething that, eventually, you
have no other choice than justto be there on the ground, from
(07:13):
house to house.
That's the situation.
Dana Lewis (07:15):
Matan, let me ask you what you saw and do you
think that the goal, as statedby the Israeli cabinet, the war
cabinet, is achievable theelimination of Hamasda.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (07:30):
I think it's definitely achievable
, but I think it won't beachieved very easily and the
fact that something can beachieved doesn't mean it can
achieve without very high amountof friction and without
different kinds of interventions.
So Army Force is definitely anecessity at this moment of time
(07:55):
because there is a live terrororganization doing terrible
things that we couldn't imaginefive and a half months ago and,
despite the fact that we've seenthings before, this was a new
(08:16):
extreme.
So definitely the use of ArmyForce is a necessity at this
point of time and this shouldcome along together with many
things.
And I think that here theinternational community has a
big role in condemningunanimously what is being done
(08:38):
over there and understand thatat the moment, both the Israeli
citizens that are hurting andthe Palestinian citizens that
are hurting are both hurtingbecause of Hamas.
Hamas is doing horrific thingsboth to us and to the
Palestinians, that he uses themin the most cynical, disruptive
(09:04):
way as human shields and usingtheir homes and their schools
and their hospitals as bombshelters or places to hide
ammunition.
Dana Lewis (09:17):
Can you give me an example of what you saw on the
ground there that really painteda picture for you of what Hamas
is doing and how it's using thecivilian population?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (09:29):
Every second house in Gaza has crazy
amounts of ammunition and notall the people that lived on
those houses were actuallytrained to use these ammunition.
These were only hiding placesfor Hamas to hide their
ammunition within civilian homesand because they know and they
(09:53):
count on the fact that we willnever attack citizens, they used
this card in the most horrificway.
You go to their hospitals andyou see anti-tank missiles and
you see rifles and you seegrenades within treatment rooms,
within hospitals.
That's the reality.
Did you see that?
Of course, and they count onour morality to not do anything
(10:18):
about it.
And surely they were right.
We didn't do anything about itfor many, many years because we
don't want to hurt any unengagedcitizen.
But then, when they did thebrutal attack, raped women,
murdered babies, demolishedentire families they really let
(10:40):
us know choice but to actuallyenter and, for once, actually
killing everything up.
And that's what we're doing.
And in this sense, I think thatthe international support is
crucial in understanding thatthe world, the Western world,
(11:02):
the world of morality, cannotlet terror organization demolish
the lives of citizens,regardless if there is Israelis
or Palestinians.
We cannot let it happen.
Dana Lewis (11:14):
All right, I want to bring in Karen here and thank
you for being patient, karen, doyou?
I understand you're not on theground in Gaza, but you're in
the idea, if you're watchingwhat's happening.
Do you think that your leadersnow, once the moment of rage is
over, after October the 7th andthe horrendous things that were
done to Israelis by Hamas andthe Islamic jihad and others
(11:39):
when they entered Israel, oncewe get past that moment of rage
five months into this, do youthink that your government is on
this war cabinet is on theright track?
Do you think that what'shappening in Gaza ends somehow
to the benefit of Israel?
How does this end?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (12:00):
I have to say that I have full
trust and believe in the IDF andeverything that it's been doing
.
First of all, on the people.
After this three monthexperience of being in reserve
duties and meeting people whohave left their homes, their
houses, their lives, their jobsand put everything at stake,
(12:22):
there's nothing that gives youmore hope than to see how we all
come together to promise abetter future for tomorrow
morning.
In terms of our government, Ithink it's a complicated
situation.
The government and all ourleaders were on duty when
October 7th happened, so I feelthat most of my trust really has
(12:43):
to do with the people.
The people who are on this callitself that we didn't know each
other just a few weeks ago, andI think that that's what's very
special in the Jewish nationthe spirit of the people and
their ability to come togetherin order to make a true
difference in how Israel isgoing to be tomorrow morning and
that's a lot of what Tikkun2024 is trying to do bring that
spirit up also to our leadershipand also to our society in
(13:08):
general.
Dana Lewis (13:09):
I want to explore that a little bit and go ahead.
Sorry, David, I want to bringyou in here.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (13:14):
Well , I feel that we started with
the more like a war armyperspective, but actually what
connects us the three of us andall the group of Tikkun 2024,
already tens of thousands ofIsraelis is the fact that we see
that we are missing the kind ofleadership that can say the
(13:35):
truth.
We are missing the kind ofleadership that can bring us
into agreeing on the crucialthing that are destroying or
tearing the Israeli societyapart.
We're seeing the polarization,we're seeing the fighting, the
separation things that are thesocial media and the media in
(13:57):
general are kind of strivingfrom, and also the politicians,
and instead of getting toagreements about what should we
do, what is the strategy, how towork together, how to
collaborate even if we haveinternal conflicts.
The fact that we don't haveleadership that can take us
there is actually jeopardizingand harming the Israeli society
(14:23):
and our ability not only to winthe war and hold the Israeli and
the Jewish morality in it, butalso to be strong internally and
to deal with our internalchallenges.
And this is actually whatTikkun 2024 was created for.
Dana Lewis (14:42):
Right, okay, so that's and I don't want to
belittle what you've just saidin any way but I mean there's
this sort of kumbaya momentwhere let's come together, let's
unify, let's, you know, standbecause we're under existential
threat as a nation.
Put aside our differences, butin the end those differences are
(15:04):
very real.
They are very different visionsof things like is there, should
there be a two-state solution?
Should religious parties servein the army?
Should there be reoccupation ofGaza, and in a permanent way by
settlements?
There's a lot of things that,given even given a spirit of
(15:28):
unity, are not easily overcomeby correct yes.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (15:34):
When we say to be united, it doesn't
mean to agree on everything.
I think that what we see in thelast 30 years not only in
Israel, by the way.
I think it's a global challengeis that a politician and the
media is taking us to theextreme, to the polarity, and
(15:57):
keeping us arguing and fightingand hating each other based on
these things, instead of takingthem as two different approaches
and finding the way to get toan understanding and agreement
that will be better for everyoneeventually.
Dana Lewis (16:16):
Matan, you started to jump in there.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (16:19):
Yeah, so I think you asked about all
kinds of questions, and thereare different opinions about
each of these questions Withinthe people of Deku 2024, what we
are saying is that we need aban in general from now onward.
What we like in England or inthe United States, you have the
(16:43):
Democrats or the Republicans,you have the liberals or the
conservatives.
What we claim is that, due tothe reality of the Israeli state
, we must have a centralgovernment that is centered, not
right wing, not left wing, butunited in a sense.
Each of these subjects that youjust raised are difficult to
(17:07):
solve, but they are solvable,and what we need in order to
solve these subjects and manyothers that you didn't mention
is a government that is centeredand not needed to handle itself
, but needed to handle thestate's issues Isn't the problem
, and you guys can correct me,you live there but I mean, I've
(17:30):
covered the election process inIsrael and different coalition
governments.
Dana Lewis (17:35):
and isn't the process, inevitably, that there
are not two main dominatingparties, but in the end what
happens is nobody can form amajority government.
So Netanyahu, for instance andhe's not the first one to do it
and it's not the first time he'sdone it in the end he marries,
(17:57):
in this case, religious,ultra-right minority parties,
promising some pretty extremethings to them, but that enables
him to draw together thiscoalition and have power.
And isn't that the problem?
That consistently, politicalleaders who cannot form a
government then go to theextreme and the minority then
(18:21):
hijacks the majority throughthat political process.
Anybody can jump in there.
Karen, you want to try this one?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (18:29):
I see Matan, I'll let him go and
then I'll complete the thoughtsthere.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (18:34):
In many ways you're right.
The political structure inIsrael is fractured for the past
few years and that created aninternal chaos.
But this is the past and I'mmore interested in speaking
about the future and in thefuture from now on.
I think that the civicengagement of civilians within
(18:57):
the political life has went downvery, became very low in the
past decade and then in the lastyear became very high and kind
of shifted everything to theother side.
To add on to that, we hadOctober 7th and the catastrophe
and the cruelty of Hamasattacking civilians in Israel,
(19:19):
and that pushed many civiliansto understand that we don't have
the luxury anymore of not beingengaged.
Dana Lewis (19:28):
What's changed?
Karen?
You can jump in here too.
What's changed?
Netanyahu remains in power andthose parties that he formed an
alliance with very much haveout-weighted if I can use that
term political influence overthe majority.
The minority still has its orein the water and is still
(19:51):
steering the ship right now.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservi (19:54):
Again , I think I connect to what
Matan just brought up.
At the end of the day, thepolitical arrangement reflects
the civilians' desires and theway they see the future of our
nation.
And I think when you ask whatchanged October 7th and the past
three months or four monthsthat each of us had experienced
(20:14):
I mean just looking at thepeople that are on this computer
screen right now I live in theGusha Tzion block.
I'm considered what's called asettler, and David and Matan
live more in central Israel.
Prior to October 7th, I don'tthink the three of us were able
to imagine a way to find acommon discussion between us and
(20:36):
, being that we are the onesthat vote and we are the ones
that give power to ourgovernment also, I think a lot
of the civilian life itself alsogave power to this polarization
.
That happened After ourexperience in the reserve duty
and seeing that we could beshoulder to shoulder with people
who are 100% different than usin our views but understand that
there's something larger thanjust my personal sector, where I
(20:57):
come from, and that largerthing is the continuation of the
Israeli state, and all of usbeing able to be for this larger
mission showed us that there'sa different way, and what TQUN
2024 is trying to do is havethat voice and that awareness
that, first of all, we asreserves and the civilians have
have that effect the politicalscene.
(21:18):
We're not the only country inthe world that has a parliament
way of government.
The question is what we ascivilians, what we want from our
politicians and what we pushthem for, and that's why we're
pushing to our leadership, butalso letting this unique voice
that we were able to discoverthrough our reserve duty have
(21:41):
more of a say in power in howthings are run here in Israel.
Dana Lewis (21:44):
Okay, so there's some triumph in that standing
shoulder to shoulder and comingtogether, but, david, isn't
there a lot of disappointment inthat too?
Because you emerged from Gazaand to some degree, were
disappointed that there wasstill just the division and, if
anything, some of the fracturesthat had already existed before
(22:05):
the attack on October the 7thhave even widened and are still
there.
David Sherez/IDF Reservi (22:10):
That's correct.
There is a huge disappointmentfrom the lack of leadership, and
the first thing that we aredemanding from our leaders is to
take responsibility.
We haven't seen the Israelileadership.
We haven't seen the primeminister and the government
saying we are sorry, this is ourresponsibility.
(22:31):
We did something wrong.
We need to take thisresponsibility and we are only
five and a half months sinceOctober 7th.
They had also time to dosomething, to wake up, to change
something in the way they lead,and they haven't.
They're still fighting, they'restill separating, they're still
(22:54):
.
They didn't wake up to the sizeof this event, this historical
event.
The government is not yet doingwhat is required in this
situation.
Dana Lewis (23:07):
So the first thing is to take responsibility
Selfishly protecting politicalposition.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (23:14):
I think that eventually, this is
the motivation or the incentivesin our structure and in the
media and also the people inpower.
The incentive is not to takeresponsibility, is not to pay
the price and being the leadersthat are needed now.
And, by the way, I think thisis not only a personal issue yes
(23:38):
, there is a personal issue, butit's also a structural issue,
and this is what our generationis asking for.
We want to see a dramaticchange, but the first thing we
are reservists, we are notpoliticians.
What we're asking is a verysimple thing we're asking to
take responsibility.
We are asking to work towardsan agreed common goal with an
(24:02):
agreed strategy, in atransparent way, to focus on
what's important and not tofocus on the things that are not
relevant.
And what is not relevant now issectorial and personal
interests, and this is thechange we want to see now.
Dana Lewis (24:18):
Does Netanyahu have to go?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (24:22):
I believe that Netanyahu needs to
go, and also many others fromthe defense forces and many
people that were involved.
But this is not ourresponsibility.
There's going to be an officialcommittee that will investigate
.
I believe that some of thepeople need to take
responsibility first and resign.
I think that what we need tolead for us as a group in Tikkun
(24:46):
, is to ask for a new agreement,a new deal to regain trust
between the people and betweenthe reservists and the
government itself and theparliament in general.
They failed.
They need to give the mandateback to the people and we need
to decide, and many of them needto go back home and resign, and
(25:07):
many of us of our generation ofnew people new blood needs to
go into this.
Dana Lewis (25:13):
How do you get them to go If you support Netanyahu
in leaving?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (25:20):
I think that it's not a personal
question.
I think we've presented aroadmap for what we, as
reservists, will representothers, what we expect that will
happen.
One is to take responsibility.
Two is immediately to broadenthe government to become as wide
as possible and manage this war.
(25:43):
In my point of view, this is notjust a local war.
This is a war of the moralworld against a terror
organization and in that sense,I think that even you, dana, and
us, we have an alliance.
We need to protect citizens andwe need to make sure that the
Western world can prevail anddefend its values.
(26:07):
Then we want an election datefor sometime in 2024, after
we'll finish to, we will finisheliminating the immediate
threats that we have on theborders at the moment.
And then we want a declarationof the biggest parties that they
will sit in a united governmentalso after the next election.
(26:29):
This, on our end, will presentthe to overcome its challenges.
The identity of the primeminister is irrelevant on my
from my point of view, it'sirrelevant as long as the
biggest parties will decide tosit together, whether they are
(26:50):
center, little to the right orlittle to the left, and will
construct the government andonly then all the rest, the
other parties from the far rightor far left, will be able to
decide whether they believe andagree in the guidelines of this
government or they don't, andthen they'll sit out.
That will allow the state ofIsrael the stability it needs so
(27:14):
desperately in order to rebuildthe security of our borders,
rebuild the safety of ourcitizens, rebuild the economy
here and moving forward towardsa future, and continue being the
only democracy in the MiddleEast that is functioning and has
an alliance with the Westernworld.
Dana Lewis (27:36):
I guess you know, in my view, from covering Israel
for a long time and the WestBank and Gaza is that.
And, karen, maybe I can ask you, because you live in the West
Bank, you live in the GushetSeon, you're a settlement.
Maybe later that land, in apeace process, could be annexed
(27:57):
and some land exchanged withPalestinians.
But in the short term, isn'tthis about to get worse, that if
you're unable to really defeatHamas in Gaza which a lot of
people think is impossible thatit will remain in place, rather
than you know?
We talk about Israeliextremists and Israeli moderates
(28:17):
, but in the West Bank you have,you know, a lot of Palestinian
moderates who I've met andpeople with real visions of
peace for the future.
Isn't the problem now thatHamas just not dominating Gaza,
will soon dominate the West Bankas well and this will just get
more dangerous, not less?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (28:36):
I feel like the answer is a part
of your question.
I could say living here in theWest Bank and that's the own
block I personally have beenvery, very much involved in for
the past few years for closeconversations, talks, meetings
with Palestinian partners here,which probably doesn't fall
(28:56):
proper in like the stigma thatI'm supposed to hold, and I'm
not alone, I'm not likesomething that stands out and
very different from where I live, and maybe that's like the
difference of what we see onnews and media and how things
are portrayed to how they are inthe everyday life and I do have
hope.
I see it very, very complicatedand I admit that October 7th
(29:17):
gave me a big hit to my bellyand a lot of scary thoughts, but
I still have Palestinianfriends that live here.
Like Matan said before, a lotof the pain that they feel is
also caused by Hamas, just likeus, and it's important to keep
that awareness of who the peopleare and who our partners can be
and what happens on the higherlevel or through media.
Dana Lewis (29:41):
Do you support a two-state solution?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist (29:44):
I can't say exactly what I think
the solution is and I don't knowif there's a lot of also
different options out theretoday.
There's the confederation.
There's different options thatare out there.
I can say that I have dedicatedmy life and will continue
dedicating my life to have peacein the Middle Eastern area and
specifically in Israel.
(30:04):
I truly believe that I want toraise my children in a happy,
peaceful place and I trulybelieve that I want my
Palestinian partners and friendsto also have that stability.
For me to say now what theproper political solution is, I
feel like that would be, I don'tknow, not proper to really my
(30:25):
full understanding of what theoutcomes of each of these can be
.
Dana Lewis (30:29):
You're not the only one that doesn't have a big
picture of clarity about how dowe go forward now in Israel,
david.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (30:37):
I want to add something to that.
Really, what is clear to me,and, I think, to all Israelis,
is that, first thing, we need tohave security at our borders.
We need to make sure that Gazahas no weapons at all.
We need to make sure that Hamasis not creating a terror state
(31:00):
and taking all the resources ofthe Palestinians in Gaza towards
creating terror on Israel.
This is first thing that weneed to remember.
That is, that's a month.
Dana Lewis (31:13):
No weapons.
You just said no weapons at all, right.
And you?
I don't need to tell you you'vebeen there.
That is a monstrous mountain toclimb.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (31:24):
Yeah , that's true, that's true, and
I think that October 7th made itvery clear that we have no
other choice and we are actuallydoing it.
We are paying the price ofbeing sovereign and making sure
that this won't happen again,and I think this is first
(31:45):
priority for us as Israelis.
What we can do is take care ofour position, is make sure that
we are doing the best that wecan, and I hope that also our
neighbors, the Palestinians,will do the same about
themselves and about theirleadership, and maybe one day we
will see a better future.
(32:06):
I hope, and I will do my bestwork towards that future, but
what I can take responsibilityon is myself, what I am doing,
what are the values that areleading me and how I make sure
that our country is safe and ourpeople are protected.
Dana Lewis (32:24):
This is first thing and first priority and a lot of
people think you know, goingback to Yitzhak Rabin and beyond
that a two state solution isthe answer.
And it rolls off people'stongues now, people with very
little historic knowledge of theconflict, of the Oslo Accords,
of the joint patrols to Gaza andthe West Bank, the withdrawal
(32:48):
of settlements, the attempts toarm a Palestinian police who
would deal with the extremists,intelligence sharing.
I mean there has been so muchthat has taken place.
So when the diplomats say twostate solution, give them a
state Palestinian homeland,let's get on with it.
(33:08):
I think most Israelis would saywell, just a minute, I was just
attacked from an area calledGaza which was largely
independent.
I mean, we surrounded theborder of it, but it was largely
independent.
Now you want me to give, aftermy citizens have been killed and
(33:28):
raped and kidnapped.
You want me to give a largerarea closer to my border, to the
same Palestinians with what Iwould guarantee First coup.
There is a question in that andthat would be what do?
Most Israelis hold a verydifferent view of a two-state
solution.
(33:48):
Now is probably the mostnervous, unsettling time for
Israelis to talk about atwo-state solution, while
internationally that's beingpushed by so many different
leaders, including PresidentBiden and onward Matan.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (34:05):
Yeah, I think that we need to
recognize reality.
Eventually, the world hashelped.
We withdraw from Gazacompletely.
They had full sovereignty overGaza.
There were no Israeli forcesthere since 2006, 2007.
We withdraw completely and weallow them to be completely
(34:26):
independent.
They got lots of help,financial help, both from the
Arab world and from the UnitedNations, and established many
things and eventually, now whenwe are there physically, we see
that the vast majority of theirmoney did not go to build an
(34:47):
excellent educational system,nor health system, nor economy,
nor whatever.
We went to build terror tunnels, to hold women and children
underneath it, to bringterrorists to attack innocent
civilians and to grenades,rockets, rifles, etc.
(35:08):
This is the reality that needsto be acknowledged.
This is a fact, it's not aninterpretation.
This is the fact Now, from hereonward.
Of course, even this cannot beforever like that, but we must
get back to T-Zero.
We must demolish FAMAS, notjust locally, but globally.
(35:29):
Famas today is present also inEurope and in many other places,
and here again I reach out toyou as a world leader, alongside
many others.
We need to be united againstthe terror organization,
regardless of their names.
We need to shut down their bankaccount.
We need to eliminate theirability to harm innocent people
(35:50):
in Israel, in Europe, in theUnited States or anywhere on the
globe.
That is a global goal that wemust work together in order to
achieve.
Afterwards, we, of course, needto make sure, and we are making
sure.
I can tell you that mepersonally, alongside many other
soldiers who are there with me,risked our lives on a daily
(36:13):
routine just to spare theinnocent people's lives.
Now, it's very difficult whenyou have a terrorist hiding.
Dana Lewis (36:22):
There are a lot of people internationally that see
the pictures coming out of Gazathat doubt that.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (36:26):
I understand that and it's very
sad, and I think that part ofthe media role is to acknowledge
the complexity of having aterrorist organization hiding
among civilians, not by mistake,it's by design, that's
intentional.
And when they do that and theyfire at us from within a crowd
(36:50):
and it's not something that Iheard, it's something that I
experienced, that I saw with myown eyes and to deal with this
kind of reality it's very, verydifficult, and anyone who tried
to make it superficial or binary, as if there are good and bad
here, is wrong in the way hepresents the good and the bad.
(37:10):
There is a bad in this storyand the bad is Hamas' full stop.
It's bad for Palestinians, it'sbad for Israelis, it's bad for
the Western world, alongsidewith ISIS, alongside with
Al-Qaeda.
It's exactly the same.
If you ask any British soldieror American soldier that was in
(37:31):
Afghanistan how the the, thescenic use of ISIS or Al-Qaeda
within the local civilians.
It's catastrophe, it's crazy.
They want Look.
Their goal is for us to hurt asmany unidentified, unengage
people as possible.
It's literally one of theirgoals and they're trying to do
so.
Dana Lewis (37:50):
they're winning.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservi (37:51):
They're winning on that front?
I don't know At the moment, noone is winning.
I think that as long as we'renot, all of us, united within
this global goal of condemningevilness and condemning terror
organization and think thatmaybe they have a point, they
don't.
They are evil people Full stop.
(38:12):
We want to demolish our way oflife, our modern Western way of
life, who puts life and freedomat first place.
That's what we need toacknowledge.
Dana Lewis (38:23):
Well, if their goal is civilian as many civilian
casualties as possible, they'recertainly winning something
there and galvanizing somesupport for them, because there
isn't any other alternativeright now for Palestinians that
they see at least in Gaza.
Maybe they see somethingdifferent in the West Bank.
But how do we move this forward?
I mean, david, as you wantTikan to kind of be the voice of
(38:47):
the mainstream, not hijacked byleft or right or extremists.
You don't want to become apolitical movement.
So I'm just not sure how do youaffect political change where
the mainstream Israelis andthere are a lot of secular
Israelis not in religiousparties who might support
(39:12):
different solutions withPalestinians how do you push
them?
I mean, the politicians are notgoing to lead you there, it
looks like.
How are you going to push themto the direction you want to go?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (39:22):
So I want to share a story.
On October 7, the people ofIsrael stood up to the size of
the historical event.
People went from their homes toprotect people until the army
and the police came.
People rescued a lot of peoplefrom the Nova massacre, the
(39:47):
music festival and since October7, the Israeli people,
regardless of their origin, theycould be bedwurled, they could
be religious or secular, theycould be right or left wing,
they came, they helped.
Every place where thegovernment was not effective,
(40:11):
was not working, the people came.
Matan and I, we've raised thefund to support all the people
who were evacuated from the Gazaarea, the Israelis that were
evacuated there, to support themuntil the government will start
reacting Okay.
(40:33):
And so many beautiful thingshappen, so many initiatives from
the people, and I think thereis another moment now where the
people need to take back themandate.
The people need to tell ourleaders what we are expecting
from them, and we are doingexactly that.
We are saying it on the media,we are telling it to our
(40:57):
politicians and we are creatingthe critical mass of people that
are demanding responsibility.
Unity.
This is what we are asking for,and tikkun tikkun in Hebrew
comes from the.
It's a very spiritual andsacred word.
Dana Lewis (41:17):
Means to heal.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (41:19):
It means to heal, it means to
correct, it means to changesomething that is broken.
So, if we see a system, if wesee a world now that is totally
broken, we are coming to fix it.
We are coming to create theenergetical, the consciousness,
(41:39):
the powerful change that thepeople can bring in order to
change the direction.
We are at the crossroad.
One direction can lead to aterrible future of fighting and
separation and hate and fake, aswe see all over the world, and
another path can lead us to abetter future of transparency,
(42:05):
of working together incollaboration, of deep listening
to the other, to his or herneeds, to deep democracy, real
democracy.
I think these are the thingsthat we are fighting for today.
There is a future where theconflicts, the left and the
right, can fight and kill eachother, but they can also lead to
(42:30):
a cohesion, to a sympathy thatwill bring better solutions.
This is what we need thepolarities for to bring better
solutions, and this is what weare demanding today.
Dana Lewis (42:41):
If there was one message that you gave to Benny
Gantt when you met with him,what was the headline?
What did you try to deliver tohim?
And he is now supposedly in acoalition government with
Netanyahu I mean a war cabinetand there he is meeting in
Washington with President Biden,while Netanyahu doesn't want to
(43:05):
meet Biden.
On more moderate terms of whatthe future looks like in Gaza, I
mean just the political theaterthis week shows the great
divisions and so-calleddifferent Israeli political
groups coming together.
If anything, they are becomingmore separate.
So what did you tell him?
(43:26):
What message did you deliver toBenny Gantt?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (43:31):
We talked about.
You know we are very focused inwhat we do.
We are Zionist, we are patriots, we believe that Israel is the
one and only state for theJewish people and we need to
preserve it, and by workingtogether, we can create the
synergy needed in order topreserve it and better for all
(43:54):
the nations around us.
Again, this is the onlydemocracy in the Middle East.
It's not very easy to be inthis rough neighborhood with all
the violence that is going onhere in Lebanon, in Syria and
all around us.
As I'm sure you know, it's not.
It's a pretty toughneighborhood.
It's a tough neighborhood andwe see the way, the hypocrisy.
(44:17):
We see UNR people who wereemployed by UNR, an organization
, belong to the UN.
We actually participated andthis is documented in raping
women, in murder babies.
This is the reality that welive in.
So our first and foremostpriority is to preserve this
only democracy that is part ofthe alliance with the Western
(44:40):
world, in order to have here apeaceful way of life.
Dana Lewis (44:44):
What did you tell Benny Gantt?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (44:46):
So we said we need to work together
left and right, conservativesand liberals in order to make
sure that we can deliver that tothe nation of Israel and to the
world itself.
Dana Lewis (44:56):
Did you hear anything?
David, you were in that meetingtoo.
Did you hear anything from himthat made you think he got it?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist (45:05):
Yes , I felt he agreed and accepted
that this kind of new deal thatwe are offering the Israeli
society and the politicians is agood plan for Israel to make
sure that, instead of fightinginternally, we will be united in
fighting our enemies and makingit to the best way we can do it
(45:29):
, and I think that he sharedwith us the political challenges
of making it happen, whileunderstanding that this is the
right thing and this is a goodthing that we need to strive for
.
So I believe that he's workingand trying to do the best that
he can to get there, and we seealso the limitation of the
(45:51):
politicians, their interests,their challenges, the political
map of Israel, and this is whywe are here to make sure that
our voice will be heard and thisis what will happen eventually.
Dana Lewis (46:05):
Here and last word to you.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservis (46:09):
Yeah , I grew up in the US, my whole
childhood was there.
I made a Le'ai move to Israelwhen I was 18.
And as I'm in this conversation, I suddenly realized something
Growing up in America politics,governments, my ability to
influence as a civilian wassomething that was very I don't
know, it was very far, it wasn'timmediate, and I think that's
(46:33):
something culturally that needsto be understood what it means,
what the life in Israel is.
Even your questions aboutPalestinians, two state
solutions who are enemies, arehow close Everything here is
intertwined.
So when you see I don't knowthese three people that didn't
know each other a month ago,when we're I don't know all in
our 30s, 40s, what kind ofinfluence can we have?
(46:55):
I think almost every one ofthem.
I and again, I only moved toIsrael when I was 18.
And I know at least threepeople who sit today in the
parliament.
Being fairly new here, Ialready have those connections
and I think that's culturallysomething that needs to be
understood about what it meansto live, to live in Israel.
When you ask what our influenceis, when you're a civilian in
(47:16):
Israel that cares and I thinkthat's something that's very
special about living in Israelthere's no one that doesn't care
.
Everyone is very, verypassionate about what this
country is and does everythingthey can to influence it.
Your voice and your influencehas almost an immediate effect.
So the power that Tikkun 2024has has has brought together in
(47:38):
this past, in this past month.
It's not just like I don't knowsome, some in some far off
state, this group of people whocame together, it's.
It's in the talk of almostevery news channel, every um
Shabbat table that I'm at umfrom far places, because it's a
very close knit culture.
And also, when you speak aboutour relationship with
(47:59):
Palestinians and a two statesolution and where our enemies
are, I, I I mean, I'm looking atmy window and I have
Palestinian neighbors and Ithink that's something that's
important to understand our, ourlife and the complexity of what
Matan said before good and eviland where everything,
everything is intertwined.
And that close knitness alsomakes it very complex to
understand but also allows us tohave huge influence on how
(48:23):
tomorrow morning is going toseem.
So when we say let's influencethe leadership, it's us.
It's us taking responsibility,it's us speaking up, it's us
tomorrow morning speaking topoliticians, but also ourselves
deciding who's who's going to bein politics tomorrow.
I have friends that are inpolitics today.
It's I mean, it's not somethingthat I experienced with my with
my friends that I grew up inhigh school in America.
(48:44):
It's really something that'svery far off.
So I think that's one of thebeauties that we have here in
Israel.
Um, and and there I see a lotof a lot of hope, and not just
what the three of us are saying,but the thousands of people who
have already joined us in thiscall for unity.
Um and and I'm confident thatit will have its effects up and
(49:04):
down and all around on whatIsraeli society needs today
extremely confident.
Dana Lewis (49:09):
Yeah, well said, and I guess the the enemy are the
extremists who hijack the, theconversation um and more, and
the enemy is the al-Kamas andthe terrorist who kill us.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (49:26):
I want to acknowledge the fact
that 20% of Israeli citizens areMuslim Arabs, and they were
slaughtered as well.
They were kidnapped as well.
The enemy is one and its nameis Hamas.
Among us, there is a disputeand we are we are citizens
working towards solving thisdispute, but we must this thing
(49:49):
where the camp matters, languagematters, enemy are terrorists.
Dana Lewis (49:57):
Yeah, and the enemy can be disillusionment with the
process, because if you have anew found hope, as a lot of
Israelis did in the nineties, umwith with peace accords, they
became very quicklydisillusioned when bombs started
going off in cafes and on busesand Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and
(50:18):
so even even well-intentionedum, it's it's very, very complex
situation.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist (50:23):
We will continue to fight for peace
because eventually, any, anyarmy manoeuvre is only in the
service of the reaching out forpeace, and Israel has done it
again and again and throughoutyears.
We had many successes, egyptincluded, jordan included, and
eventually we will get there.
But we need to understand that.
(50:45):
You know, as you said, we livein a very rough neighborhood.
Our head is always reached outfor our neighbors and we'll
continue to do so.
And I think that when you speakand I worked for 10 years with
the Bedouins in the negative,who are all Muslims and when you
ask them about theiridentification with the state of
(51:05):
Israel, they are with uscompletely.
When you would ask them afterthe October 7th about Hamas,
they would say it's a disgracefor their religion, it's a
disgrace for humanity, it's adisgrace for the Arab nations,
it's a disgraceful stock andthat's what we need to be clear
about it.
There's no slapstick to you.
Dana Lewis (51:26):
All right, I think we'll have to leave it there and
I really do appreciate talkingto David Cheriz, karen Sokolov
and Matan Yaffe.
Thank you so much, guys.
I appreciate it and good luck.
Thank you All full-time experts,and that's our backstory this
week on Israel and the war inGaza.
I think the hope and beliefthat things will get better by
(51:47):
these army reservists is ashining light, but Israel's
future won't be defined by aspirit of unity, but rather real
decisions that will have to betaken in soon about how it lives
with its Palestinian neighborsand whether decisions will be
made sensibly taken bypeace-seeking mainstream
(52:09):
majorities on both sides or, asit has seen many times in the
past, extremist, hijackeddecision-making.
Hamas has played a major rolein fomenting hate and conflict,
but Israel also has itsfar-right extremist elements
that bear responsibility for thecurrent conflict too.
I'm Dana Lewis.
(52:29):
Thanks for listening toBackstory and I'll talk to you
again soon.
©.
(54:31):
Bf-watch TV 2021 you.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com